Slashdot Mirror
Accused Spammer to Debate SpamCop Founder
Weezle writes "Wired News is reporting that OptInRealBig's Scott Richter is going to debate SpamCop's Julian Haight in public next month. Richter had the nerve to file a lawsuit against SpamCop recently claiming that the blacklist keeps his company from sending out 'marketing messages.' (in lay terms, spam) Not surprisingly, Richter himself is being sued for $20 million by NY Att. General Eliot Spitzer. Sounds like it's going to be a real nasty fight."
Sounds like it's going to be a real nasty fight.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the referee stops this fight early. I'm expecting both of them to fight dirty... Julian Haight tries hard but often swings first and aims later, while Scott Richter says he plays by the rules but morals have never really stood in his way.
There's no way they're gonna go the scheduled twelve rounds!
For those who wish to opt out...
OptInRealBig.com, LLC.
(303) 464-8164
info@optinbig.com
1333 W 120th AVE
Suite 101
Westminster, CO 80234
US
OptInRealBig publicly debating SpamCop on the legality of spam is like Charles Manson publicly debating Vincent Bugliosi on the legality of committing mass murder.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
Sounds like a tactic used everywhere, suing that is, but this seems something that you'd expect MS to have its name on. It's almost a shock.
Does such a claim really warrent a lawsuit though?
It's was never designed to do that...
Lawyers for both sides said they have agreed to allow the debate because they believe it will not focus on the lawsuit.
Uhm... two guys suing each other in public and they're not going to talk about the legal alligations either has leveled about the other? Sounds like some lawyers won't be members of the Bar Association much longer.
I would so pay $50 to watch this on pay per view
..and can I bring my baseball bat?
I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
you mean Richer is going to get SERVED, then I agree, it's on!
That CSS file that blocks ads
I believe it is still legal to send marketing spams as long as the recepients have given consent, no?
How can we, the spam victims, prove that we NEVER gave consent to such-and-such website?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
I don't think SpamCop is going to be winning this one, because OptInRealBig has all of those email addresses at their disposal. Just a few mass mailings is all it takes to get public opinion on their side.
Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.
Scott Richter seems like a funny guy. He appeared on the Jon Stewart show a while back. I'm sure the debate would be entertaining to watch.
In Soviet Russia, spammers sue you!
oh... wait.
IMHO the debate between these two should end right there. This is like a "do not call" list. People are bombarded with advertising at every turn. We should have a right to be left alone.
Harpo Tunnel Syndrome--my wrist feels funny.
Blacklist operators like to say they just provide a service to the sysadmins; it's the owners of the recipient servers who do the blocking. But by the same logic, credit reporting agencies just provide a service to merchants and lenders; it's those lenders who refuse your application. Yet Congress has seen fit to pass the Fair Credit Reporting Act to stop abuses by the credit bureaus; despite the fact that they don't actually deny you a loan, it is obvious the power they have over individuals and the ways they can abuse it, EVEN IF that power is granted to them indirectly by lenders. I would argue that the same could be said of blacklists; arguably, they could (and perhaps should) be regulated for the same reasons that credit bureaus are.
As a marketer you have the right to send out ad's. As a consumer, I have the right to block your shit. Fuck off, excuse the language.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Please...someone...tell me they are merging with SCO soon. I'd really rather focus all my angers at one company instead of two.
Where is Pay Per View when you need them? I would gather all my friends, order lots of pizza and pay $50 for this event. We need a Geek Pay Per View!
sending out 'marketing messages.' (in lay terms, spam)
marketing messages do not always equal spam. For example, Apple sends me marketing messages all the time, and they're not spam.
also, in 'lay terms' (think you mean "layman's terms") 'spam' would be "sending you mail you don't ask for", and 'marketing messages' are not always 'spam'.
i don't mean to get on a rant here, but also:
if you have to explain 'marketing messages' also explain 'spamcop' and 'blacklist' and 'OptInRealBig'. explaining what marketing messages (a plain english term) are, and not explaining other terms the readers might not know about portrays you as a zealot, which you may or may not be. if portraying yourself as a zealot is what you were after, i should say that zealots have ZERO credibility because they are (by definition) fanatical and unreasoning.
anyway, thanks for the links, and please put a little bit more thought into your blurbs.
I hope all spammers die of cancer. A lone gunman would provide to quick of a death to these scum bags. tip: please fill out forms of the links that spammers give you with garbage (not using the identfiers that they send you of couse and going to the root of the domain) Also set your web browser to sit and refresh the web pages that the send. Eat their bandwidth and make them pay. If everyone does it, it will make spam non-profitable.
they should put these two guys head to head on prime time tv. after a (much heated, i'm sure) debate, the public could act. call 1-800-555-SPAM and vote... i'm thinking it'd be 50,000,000 SpamCop, 2 spammer...
from sending out 'marketing messages.' (in lay terms, spam)
That's called High Volume Email Deployment, not spam.
And Julian Haight is not Anti High Volume Email Deployment, he's anti-spam.
bash$
I hope the line to serve him will not be too long.
Fight Spammers!
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
I would be astonished if there was any civility at all at this event. Given the level of vitriol any spam story on /. generates, I just don't see it happening. Perhaps the pompous self-righteous guys from Spamhaus will be a good match for the ueberspammer. Just make sure they're tethered or there'll be blood. But that's what we want, hmmm?
Can we mark this whole thread flamebait/flamewar?
It's been a whole 20 minutes and we don't have aerial photos of this guy's house and his home address for our snail-mail DDOS attack yet.
scott_richter422@yahoo.com
Tell him how you feel!
no.
They're annoying, but they're not the problem. I used to get OptInRealBig messages. I clicked on the "unsubscribe" links a few times. They stopped coming.
All of Richter's emails (at least that I've seen) come with contact information for the sending company and unsubscribe instructions as required by law. And as far as I've seen, the unsubscribe instructions work. If anybody here has unsubscribed from OIRB and still gotten mailings, that's different. But as far as I've seen, OIRB uses real reply-to's, real headers, and really only gets addresses that left a "email me" checkbox checked somewhere.
Richter is annoying, but he's not the main spam problem. He runs a real company that complies with the letter if not the spirit of the law. The real problem is hijacked boxes and east Asian server farms sending billions of fraudulant, forged, difficult-to-trace messages every day. Shutting down Richter and easing the burdens on people too stupid to uncheck the "let partners email me" checkbox won't solve that.
All's true that is mistrusted
Lets just say those of you who are NRA members will appreciate it ... ;-)
Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
Just as people have a right to speak, others have a right to not listen.
If the spammers were civil and provided a way to honestly opt-out, I don't think there'd be much debate. As it is, "opt-out" options are used to verify legitimate mail addresses to which more spam is sent.
The essence of fairness is respect. If spammers were to respect the wishes of email participants, these drastic blacklist measures would not be necessary.
Just as a person may not be allowed to speak at a public forum with no curtailment of free speech, so an ISP may filter spam with no curtailment of free speech. Plus, as SpamCop merely provides a service (the identification of spam black-hole lists), they are not themselves curtailing free speech. If I (as an individual) decide to pre-filter my email by using SpamCop, I have also not curtailed the free speech rights of spammers; I have merely invoked my right to not listen.
If SpamCop is inhibited in any way by first amendment arguments, justice has been subverted. Since SpamCop itself is opt-in, they are providing more free speech than the spammers themselves.
Granted, I am not a lawyer, one of the many things of which I am glad. (I don't see how many lawyers sleep at night, but then again, I fret when I realize I only left a 15% tip instead of a 20% tip.)
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Appellants challenge the constitutionality of Title III of the Postal Revenue and Federal Salary Act of 1967, 81 Stat. 645, 39 U.S.C. 4009 ( 1964 ed., Supp. IV), under which a person may require that a mailer remove his name from its mailing lists and stop all future mailings to the householder. The appellants are publishers, distributors, owners, and operators of mail order houses, mailing list brokers, and owners and operators of mail service organizations whose business activities are affected by the challenged statute.
A new law had recently been passed whereby people could demand that unsolicited pr0n no longer be mailed to their houses. The homeowners didn't want free samples mailed to their kids. The pr0n magazines wanted to show everybody what they were missing and claimed absolute right to do so under the guise of the First Amendment. (Sound like a familiar battle?) The Supreme Court found against the postal spammers.
Some very relevant passages from the decision:
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
They also don't make and distribute spyware, as far as I know. Clicking a simple unsubscribe link is much better than deleting spyware.
Plus, I always make sure to uncheck the special offers checkboxes. I'd say it's the websites that are the problem, this guy is just providing a business service. I am sick of the silly website subscription games.
By the actions of Scott I'd say he actually believes his system is a true opt in system.
...
However I've receaved spam from this guy and I know I never opted in.
So the question is how come Scott believes his actions are lagit?
Answer:
I do get a lot of "Welcome" messages from marketting lists. Most of them say something like "Please click on the link below to conferm". Eather spammers are being creative and trying to trick me into opting in to stuff I don't have any intrest in or someone spammed my e-mail address to them.
How dose ReallyBig work? Could a jerk spammer stuff the box?
How dose Scott get a large opt in e-mail database?
It would make sense that he would have some program set up where third partys do the opt in for him. If so is there any screening for "stuffing the box"?
This presumes Scott isn't putting on a show. We can never forget that spammers are at least in part con artists. They take the PT Barnem school of marketting tactic. A sucker born every min and the real trick is to find em.
However I'm reminded of some research done a while back. Someone said that most spammers are just looking for valid e-mail addresses and don't actually sell anything.
Hence the mark isn't the spam targets but the spammers who actually try to sell stuff.
Thies people buy e-mail addresses.
And I just did conclude that this is probably where Scott got his marketting list.
In short...
Scott is this minuts sucker
Or the modern PT Barnum.
Sadly you can never know for sure.
I don't actually exist.
They're not EVIL, but of all the big blacklists, SpamCop is the least regulated. The whole idea of letting people submit addresses/domains to a blacklist with little or no verification is crazy.
I'd be happier if Spamhaus was doing this debate. They run things the right way.
Free speech is garanteed, correct. But where does the constitution say anything about garanteeing an audience?? If you do not like a public debate, you leave. It follows that if you do not like spam, you leave the list, but no! If they want to compare it to real life, they should make it a real comparaison - including a "leave" option. Obviously this is not going to happen, as that's whan they loose all their "customers" (ahem, victims). However the comparaison to speech is not valid if one cannot plug his ears.
-------
1. Enjoy your job
2. Make lots of money
3. Work within the law
Choose any two.
It doesn't matter whether they opted in or not. Those people feel his spam is unwelcome, and somehow illegitimately obtained their email address.
It doesn't matter what hoops he jumped through. All that matters as that in the eyes of consumers his company was in error, and cannot be trusted with what is normally benign personal information.
Spam is a statement about the unwelcomness of the email, not whether someone might have left a "I hate puppies" checkbox unchecked. If the people recieving the mail say it is spam. It's spam. End of story. SpamCop collects these opinions and merges them into a fact. Many people consider Scott Richter to be willingly, misleadingly, and habbitually sending vast quantities of undesirable email, and generally being a nuisance. That many people have this opinion is a fact. Now it may be true, or untrue. But over a large number of iterations it is probably an accurate predictor of what is true.
The only thing shaky is SpamCop is making an argument ad populum. And knowing who those people are doesn't change that. However, this is more than mitigated by the fact that sysadmins use this to make a likely better experience for their users. Other people would wish this to go away, my users might too, people being mostly similar.
That all these people think Scott Richter is a spammer is not libel. In fact it's accurate, particularly in light of a The Daily Show interview. Why even his government officials think he's a spammer. Were I to claim, "I have pictures of Scott Richter raping an underage goat in Tijauna. The goat was "pitching," but man you should see the smile on Scott's face!" and not have such pictures. That would be libel. I for one doubt the existance of such pictures, I was just using that as a possible example. And if someone does have such pictures, I would appreciate it if they were never sent to me. In fact it might just be better to burn them, the internet is awful enough as it is.
Scott doesn't have a God given right to make sure everyone gets his mail. Sorry. He doesn't. Just like anyone can refuse him entry into their place of business or home for any reason based on his actions, or their thoughts on him as a terribly flawed and failed human being. That's all people who are using spamcop are doing. No dice Scott, your business isn't welcome here, we don't like you, people don't like you, go sell your penis enhancements in China.
Their website may be painted by Michelangelo and their ads written by Shakespeare; what counts is whether they send unsolicited advertising or not. If that unsubscribe link is useful for anything besides unsubscribing from something you voluntarily and knowingly subscribed to, they are spammers. Do they have a corresponding subscribe link on every page too, allowing you to subscribe to every OptInBig message, before you unsubscribe from them?
Spyware (or as they prefer adware) isn't Spam (or as prefered e-mail marketting)
Adware slips into your system and slips ads directly into your system. It's software that permits someone to have some control over the way your computer works.
Spam is just bombbarding your e-mail with garbage.
Adware is worse in this reguards but that's like the diffrence between reckless driving and outright murder.
There ARE people who get angry for being ticketed and fined for reckless driving.
However spam and adware are both wrong in much the same way as reckless driving and murder is wrong. One is just more sereous than the other.
As far as the opt out links go.
Most spammers have opt out links. Most anyone familure with spam will tell you DON'T CLICK as most spammers aren't even about selling anything more that spam lists of people who opted out. It's a quick way to get you even more spam.
I opt out all the time... Building a spam filter is a hobby. I'm already up to 100 spam a day.
I don't actually exist.
that by opening the Internet to the likes of one Scott Richter, it is Al Gore who is responsible for the e-mail spam avalanche.
Some day, some person will find his inbox filled with 1002 spam messages and crack, sure hope he stumbles on this page - [ROKSO] ;-)
me to introduce Snotty Scotty to a little friend .
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
As much as I hate to support Spamers, orginizations like Spamcop can be just as bad or worse then those who send the spam.
They have no true higherarchy, no way to get your e-mail off the list if one of your compeditors has "reported" you, they often send reports of Spam to incorect administrators, and lie to their supporters about results.
All I can say is atleast they dont flood inboxes with herbal viagra and crap. Still they show how easy anti-spam orginizations can become useless and more harmfull then their good.
I think it's kind of stupid for Richter to sue Spamcop. Scott Richter's "WholesaleBandwidth, Inc." is responsible for a ton of spamming, and he's being appropriately blocked for it. For example, look up 69.6.21.150 at OpenRBL to see just how fscked Richter is. You don't appear on 14 blocklists unless you are a spammer.
Honestly, I can't think of any reason to "debate" a spammer. These people don't care about anything save their pocketbooks. Whats next, are we going to debate murders and rapists?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
My point is that it is amazing how often seemingley rational people can be fooled by a convincing argument... Don't be suprised if the spammer pulls out a blocked website with a certain political viewpoint and claims that it is being blocked for reasons other than spamming, or that blocking mail is somehow equal to what is happening in China... Here's hoping that our guy has some debating skills.
OptInRealBig's Scott Richter should have his skull crushed and ground up to be put on crackers at a fundraiser supporting SPAM!!! SPAMCOP Rules and all Spammers Skulls should be ground up into Pate and put on crackers..... Good Day, Hannibal Lector
You can use that to stop any mail you don't want to recieve. According to the law, material is sexually explicit if you say it is, and no one can challenge that. If you want to define sexually explicit mail as "any mail I do not wish to recieve", you can legally do that. By not allowing anyone but the recipient to determine what is considered sexually explicit, many first amendment issues were avoided as no one in the government had any right to determine what counted as sexually explicit. The supreme court ruling specifically mentions that it can even be used to stop dry goods catalogs from being sent.
It's a bad idea because Julian has nothing to gain, Richter has nothing to lose.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
The "Notable early accomplishments" read very strangely. They seem to have been drafted for maximum deniability. "Developed ten primary subject packets developed and for referral to Law Enforcement" "We are already planning meetings to ensure that this initiative is on track, and to further define the scope and packaging of this activity are being planned." Doesn't sound like a major roundup of criminals is in the works.
The FBI doesn't actually produce many arrests per hour expended. The FBI's Baltimore-based child porno operation produces about 1.6 arrests per agent year. They have 200 agents on that operation, or about 2% of their agent staff. (The FBI isn't that big. There are only about 12,000 agents. The NYPD is four times as large.) So to shut down 100 spammers per year, they'd probably have to devote about 75 agents to the operation, which is a big bite for them.
Only after a long, debilitating, and extremely painful illness, though.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
There's a notable drop in reports on 28 april 2004. The exact day two US-spammers were arrested. (see eweek.com)
A handful other spammers in jail, and the spam-rate will drop to below 5% of todays volume.
some targets for slashdotters out there - DoS or a wget loop would be appreciated:
Chinese spammer
And yet another one
home loan spammer
junk health spammer
I created an email alias called "optinbig@*********.com" and instructed optinbig.com to unsubscribe me from all.
You just posted that address to slashdot.
Try the experiment with a new address, this time not posting it to an email harvest field.
And, by the way: You could still get spam from address guessing spam programs.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
"Actually I admire Scott Richter for his entrepreneurism and going against what the typical slashdork thinks they stand for. I can't stand extremist self-appointed spam nazis like spamcop and julian hate."
... ;)
Well if it's any consolation, you find yourself in the minority there. I'm sure you're delighted for your kids to wake up to over 100 porn spams daily. And you're probably a cowardly spammer (or troll) anyway, so who gives a toss?
Note to spammers: you are overdoing it - by flooding my inbox with the same message 100 times a day, you guarantee I won't click them. Try and be a bit more selective, you might get an accidental click then
A small correction,
"As a marketer, with a license to conduct business, you have the PRIVILEDGE to send out advertisments, as long as the advertisments are in good faith, and overall, benefit the public. As a PERSON, I have the RIGHT to demand for revocation of your business license and Judicial Dissolution of your company, should you not behave.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Brave man! Not to mention, reckless...
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
D'oh! Aargh!
You're right, of course. My brain must have throttled down when I posted.
Open mouth. Insert foot.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Now that we know where Scott Richter's going to be - upcoming Email Technology Conference in San Francisco, we need action against that asshole that fills our emailboxes with spam.
/.
1. Go to your local supermarket
2. Buy a can or two of SPAM or a cheaper generic substitute
3. Conceal the can in a bag or coat
4. Attend the conference and bring a digital camera with you.
5. Get a nice seat closer to the front
6. Wait until Richter is comfortable enough to let his guard down
7. Open can of spam and place the contents in your hand
8. Launch contents in your hand at Richter
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until you're out of SPAM
10. Take a picture or Richter covered with spam w/ a digital camera
11. Post it on
Oh yeah...
12. ????
13. Profit!!!
You might need to do some more prep work as far as hurling SPAM at targets. Get a friend to help you, organize SPAM throwing practice sessions. Get all the participants to come with you to the debate.
Alternative plan
1. Go to your local sports store
2. Buy a baseball bat.
3. You know the rest...
Spam senders are bottom feeding low lifes who have ruined the communications capability of email. Email used to be a way to communicate with one another, and you used to be happy to get a message.
Now, its another fcuking chore. Thank you very much. Its another bill (for antispam software) and a source of infection with virii and worm euphemistically called malware and adware.
Worse still, its the only form 'direct marketing' that can kick the recipient off the network because of receipt of too many messages.
How many times have your contacts had difficulty contacting you via email because you went over limit because of spam?
This is nearly as annoying as FAX spam, only because Congress eventually got off their fat, lazy, amoral asses and did something about it.
If I were a spammer, I wouldn't let people know who I was, for fear of being pelted in public with all kinds of unmentionables.
Thank you spam, for making mention of penis size enhancement AND high yield investments occur in the same sentence.
Want to gather to flash mob on Richter? Not to beat the crap out of him but just to surround him and let him know what the people feel about him and his actions.
Just surround him and don't say anything. Don't let him leave.
I want to leave an impression on these assholes.
SpamCOP's public claim that Richter sends e-mails to people who have never opted-in
As others have pointed out, please back up this accusation with proof.
when you accuse somebody of something, it turns into a matter of fact
I see you accusing SpamCop of something - where is your proof, Mr. Hypocrite?
If you're publishing facts that aren't true
WHAT!??!?!?!?!
Here's how my dictionary defines 'fact': "a concept whose truth can be proved"
It is patently obvious that it is impossible to publish a fact that is not true, because if it's not true, then it's not a fact.
QED.
Here are some real facts for you to consider:
1. Spamcop does not publish opinions, nor does it accuse anybody of anything. It maintains a blacklist, and it acts as a reporting service for people who have not been spammed.
2. ISPs who do not want to received 'anonymous' spam reports from Spamcop can request that Spamcop send unobfuscated spam reports, which identifies the sender, which Spamcop will do. (The user is notified that the recipient refuses munged reports, and they have the choice to send the unobfuscated report, or to not send anything.)
This blows your arguments (as poor as they are) right out of the water.
7. Open can of spam and place the contents in your hand
This step is optional - can be replaced with the following:
7. Place spam can in your hand
I declare a Godwin.
Just surround him and don't say anything. Don't let him leave.
/Xanax/ Som|a| = Pnter.m.in lllgkgklxsn... :S:oma ' Pn/t/ermin xqkgmimwqfje .Pntermin. ' S|o|ma kki... .Pntermin. ' S|o|ma kki...
I think you should verbally SPAM him while you do that...
Below is a selection of subjects from my spam emailbox. Feel free to add your own:
Fwd: V1co/din ~ V|@grA ~ Va1|um ; Xan_a_x +Soma+ ~ Pnterm.i.n pfvrldpyuast
Theusdq RX News
Re: G e n e r i c P h a r m a c y
patrol
is it true your cehtaing on her ?
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Fwd: Get Meds \V1codin \ Vali+u+m _ XA/N/Ax ) v|@GRa +S+oma + P.n.termin ivcpzdt...
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Seeking other promiscuous singles? coney
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regular SUPER DISCOUNT SOFTWARES FROM 30 - 100 BUCKS hello tragedy
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Re: E $538
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Look Inside To Discover How To Get A Mortgage
Fwd: V|cod:|n \ V1@gRa , V|a|lium ( Xan_a_x Som|a| ^ Pnter.m.in zslierieeuhe
Get your 5 adult dvds for 1buck!
FWDTree131:You Wont Be Disappointed man
Interested in a dating site where people want SEX? cyclone
Re: D472
Ricky bJoB
Fwd: All Meds Here. V|@GRa # Val+i+um ` XAN@X \ V1codin+
Fwd: All Meds Here. V|@GRa # Val+i+um ` XAN@X \ V1codin+
lowest possible 3.47% |5)
Looking for a hot date? hyphenate
Looking for a hot date? hyphenate
you might get an accidental click then
/. that their morning routine is to go to a pay-per-clickthrough inclusion services like overture or looksmart or pick your own and do a search for "Mass Marketing" or "Mass email marketing" and click on the top 5 or 10 links and browse the sites a bit. Those SPAMmers are paying dearly to be placed at the top of the search results. The more people click, the more they'll pay, until they find that it's unprofitable to operate and shut down.
They get more accidental clicks by flooding your mailbox than by being more selective. They do whatever it takes to stay profitable.
Someone else posted a while ago on
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/ multimedia/tds/cord/cord_8121e.html
P.S., It's The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
[insert witty comment here]
Don't fill in the forms with garbage, fill in every contact you can find from their level 1 ISP.
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
Aunty has just posted an exclusive interview with Scott Richter here. Even better - you can submit questions and comments to Richter in follow-up to the interview, and he will answer them. Kissy kissy, Aunty