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Fingerprint Scanners Still Easy to Fool

Anlan writes "A Swedish student wrote her Master's thesis about current fingerprint technology. After a thorough literature study some live testing took place. Simple DIY fingerprint copies were used (detailed how-to in the thesis). Have current commercial products improved as much as proponents claim? Well, this qoute from the abstract says it all: 'The experiments focus on making artificial fingerprints in gelatin from a latent fingerprint. Nine different systems were tested at the CeBIT trade fair in Germany and all were deceived. Three other different systems were put up against more extensive tests with three different subjects. All systems were circumvented with all subjects' artificial fingerprints, but with varying results.' You can guess how happy the sales people at CeBIT were - most systems claim to be spoof proof..."

378 comments

  1. Airport Police by mirko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, will they remove these fingerprint scanners, in the US Internaitonal Airport ?

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
    1. Re:Airport Police by arikol · · Score: 0, Redundant

      ya think??

      the last people to realise that the technology doent work are the homeland security ppl..

    2. Re:Airport Police by loyalsonofrutgers · · Score: 3, Funny

      It doesn't really matter, odds are they're not even plugged in.

    3. Re:Airport Police by Stargoat · · Score: 4, Funny

      Airport! No, don't bring that up! George Bush will have to invade Sweden now!

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    4. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who can fool finger print scanning technology are just innocent citizens who would not abuse their skill. As for terrorists, they do not have the means and motivation for such technology!

    5. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      No, because it appears like they're actually doing some good. Just like when they had the national guard monkeys running around with M16s. Absolutely no use whatsoever, but makes the American public go "Gee - we're so protected! I love our President(tm)!"

      The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR.

    6. Re:Airport Police by wo1verin3 · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>So, will they remove these fingerprint
      >>scanners, in the US Internaitonal Airport ?

      No, they'll just continue to refuse letting travellers use gelatin molds in place of their real hands.

    7. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Just like how terrorist activity was up in 2003 but they said it was down; just for PR.

    8. Re:Airport Police by XryanX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sure someone that was trained in stage makeup could easily make a fake finger that would slip over their real one, and yet still look realistic.

    9. Re:Airport Police by ishVC · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      It is a interesting industry with a lot of venture backed plays coming from it I

    10. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm, national guard monkeys.

      I can understand if you are too chicken shit to join the millitary, as i am, or sell your soul to our government, as i wish not to do either, or if you oppose the war..... but to bash the men and women who have chosen to take that path is rather pathetic on your part. i am quite sure most of them would have rather not been "monkeying around" in the airports. keep your obscure comments and thougts to yourself please.

    11. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is, incidentally how budding magicians do that 'disappearing hankerchief' trick, after all. It's fooled many an audience.

    12. Re:Airport Police by Captain+Caveman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, they will be replaced by rectal scanners because it is impossible to make a perfect gelatin mold out of your ass.

    13. Re:Airport Police by MrDingusMcGee · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most international airports in the US use fingerprints for verification only and rely on either smart cards and/or PINs for identification purposes. So while it's certainly possible to fake the fingerprint, it's much harder to gain unauthorized access when you have to combine 2 or 3 of the "something you have/know/are" methods of security.

      You can force someone to enter a PIN and put their finger on the reader, but that's what duress codes are for (a PIN seperate from your own that indicates you are entering your PIN under threat/duress and will generate an alarm to security).

      Our airports (or any other buildings) will never be totally secure, all we can do is keep making it harder on the people who are trying to gain unauthoriezd access.

      --
      My Sig is Sauer.
    14. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worked in gataca :)

    15. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The 3,000 dead on 9/11 died in a single incident, 3 years ago. Those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq died at American hands. I stand by my point - what age of terrorism?

      If the war on terrorism was about decreasing terrorism, the US wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with any terrorism, but they did have plenty of oil. You figure it out. You have to be seriously missing the plot if you can't understand it.

    16. Re:Airport Police by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      So is this all about retribution for 11/9? Do you think the families wanted death and destruction on a scale far larger than a couple of buildings?

      --

      jh

    17. Re:Airport Police by peragrin · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There never was proof linking baghdad and Alqueda In fact it was just the opposite with lots of proof trying to keep the two seperate as baghdad feared Al-queda as much as anyone else.

      Proof the documents that say Iraqi generals are not to have contact with Al -queda as hussain was a secular president.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    18. Re:Airport Police by CreatureComfort · · Score: 5, Interesting


      I think you missed his point, Dook"43".

      He did not say that efforts to stop terrorism shouldn't be made, only that the efforts that are currently being made are pure PR fluff. Having M16 armed national guardsmen at airports was absurd. What were they supposed to accomplish? In any instance, opening fire with a machine gun in a crowded airport lobby would kill far more innocent people than terrorists. Not to mention, just how were these guardsmen supposed to tell if someone was a terrorist, before blowing themselves up or driving an explosive laden vehicle into the terminal?

      Lets talk about other "safety" measures:
      1) Turn all airport screeners into government employees. Well, now our dear TSA is moving to recertify airports to use private screeners.
      2) Even with government screeners, security is like tissue paper. I attended a conference last week, and one of the vendors was giving out "swiss army" type knives, 5 blades + corkscrew, etc. He told me he had dumped a box 50 of these into his bag, and at the last minute decided to carry that bag on instead of checking it. He didn't even remember that the box was in there until he was in the air. He stayed quiet about it until after he landed, because he didn't want to get stuck somewhere in middle america. Security never even noticed. (BTW, he said he did report it to airport security after he landed and was outside the secured zone.)

      If we are going to be serious about security follow El Al's proceedures, most of which are deliberately kept very quiet and out of the public view. Instead the current administration follows a typical american penchant to do something, anything that makes a lot of noise and is very visible for "feel good" moments, but which accomplish either nothing, or the opposite of what they are supposed to.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    19. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, dammit, it's fun to try! ;-)

    20. Re:Airport Police by zors · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, because he responding to your opinion with one of his own, he's a fascist?

      And he has a point too, just because they were never trained for airport security doesn't mean theyre stupid. And either way they deserve a modicum of respect for the commitment that they have made to their country.

      Oops, i'm a fascist.

    21. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Theoretically, a good magician could use a bright orange 2x too big plastic thumb extension, and still do their trick. At least for them, it's far more about redirection than subtle prosthetics. So technically, the parent is inaccurate, though perhaps not since he said "budding". Huh. Budding.

    22. Re:Airport Police by presarioD · · Score: 3, Funny

      national guard monkeys

      Gee! A little respect! These are hard working patriots, protecting the american public from multiple threats and dangers of all sorts!

      Ts ts ts ts ts!

      They enlist themselves and their kids to fight wars on terrors(TM) and defend democracy and freedom and the Values of Western Civilization(TM), at least we could show some respect to that Saintly Sacrifice!

      Do you think it's easy to torture Iraqi people in order to liberate them?

      --
      Yam, yam, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade
    23. Re:Airport Police by AviLazar · · Score: 1

      If we are going to be serious about security follow El Al's proceedures, most of which are deliberately kept very quiet and out of the public view.

      If you are going to say we should follow El Al's model, and thusly Israel's model, then you will need to recant your statement about the soldiers with M16's. Israeli airports have soldiers all over the place - agood sniper can do a LOT. Automatic weapons are not needed, and I would rather have one or two innocents dead then 50 dead. But in essence, you are still correct with the rest of your post.

      Gov't employees should not be in charge of security, as gov't jobs tend to be lifetime, fluff jobs. It should be in the hand of private sector, who *WILL* be held accountable for any screw-ups. Meaning they will have to pay out of their own pockets if something happens. Thats right, penalize the company for screwing up and they are less likely to do so.
      Employ the latest and greatest technology with a combination of tried and true methods. Maximize to an extreme passive tests (i.e. remote cameras) that do not hinder the customers, and use a reasonable amount of evasive tests (finger printing, retinal scans, random searches, etc).
      The last time I flew (a month after 9-11) some kid (about 17) was trying to get on the air plane (domestic flight from Philly to LA). His ID was a High school ID and the flight attendents said "oh it's alright he is young." Apparantly they have not seen any Vietnam war movies where the 7 year olds are strapped to bombs...

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    24. Re:Airport Police by CompressedAir · · Score: 1

      Well said.

    25. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 1
      He's a fascist because he told me to keep my opinions to myself.

      They deserve respect? Sure. As much as I respect any other human being. I don't respect the US military at all, especially weekenders, . The guys who serve 24/7 have inadequate training, so guys who only serve every other weekend are going to be abysmal.

      So, did Stalin deserve respect for his commitment to Russia?

    26. Re:Airport Police by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      Oh, come on, it's not about oil. I'm a liberal lefty, and even I don't believe that. It sounds more to me like a president who thought he had more world influence than he did, and thought Iraq would let him make a point.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    27. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "though perhaps not since he said "budding". Huh. Budding."

      v. budded, budding, buds
      v. intr.

      1. To put forth or produce buds: a plant that buds in early spring.
      2. To develop or grow from or as if from a bud: "listened sympathetically for a moment, a bemused smile budding forth" (Washington Post).
      3. To be in an undeveloped stage or condition.
      4. To reproduce asexually by forming a bud.

      An undeveloped magician would in fact need to rely on "subtle prosthetics".

    28. Re:Airport Police by gtaluvit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sweden. Sounds fine by me. I got dibs on the princess. Swedish Princess SFW

      --
      - gtaluvit (prnc. GOT-tuh-LUV-it)
    29. Re:Airport Police by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      I say anyone that goes through boot camp deserves my respect, if only for that. But do as you wish.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    30. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By invading Iraq he's turned it into a hotbet of terrorist activity. He actively made the world a more dangerous place. That was the only possible outcome of the action. That man did not have an alterior reason for what he did - it was oil, plain and simple. I mean, why else would you send hundreds of thousands of troops into a country to fight a war everyone's saying can't be won, against international will, which will obviously and eventually worsen the very cause you say you're fighting for? If it wasn't for oil, Bush is quite likely the very stupidest individual the world has ever seen, let alone president. Sheesh.

    31. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Damn you have low standards.

    32. Re:Airport Police by Rayonic · · Score: 1

      If someone is making an ass out of himself in a public forum, I have the right (freedom of speech) to tell him to shut up. Just as he has the right to ignore me and whine about how I shouldn't be exercising my freedom of speech in that way.

      Fascism is when the government forces you to be silent. I am not the government, nor am I forcing you.

    33. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christ, you're an over dramatic little bitch. Stop comparing everything that conflicts with your selfish little worldview to things that you honestly have no first hand understanding of.

      People who bounce facism around so lightly have never seen true facism.

    34. Re:Airport Police by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      By invading Iraq he's turned it into a hotbet of terrorist activity.

      Because $Diety knows, there was no terrorism before the US invaded Iraq. Nope. None.

      If the war *was* for oil, then this would be a very stupid move. Oil prices go way up due to middle eastern instability.

      I guess it's very difficult for you to believe that somebody may actually believe Iraq was a threat to the world. This, after all, was what the stated purpose for the war was. Sure, Saddam may not have personally bank-rolled the terrorists, but he didn't exactly try to stop any terrorists in his country either. Failure to even try to police such activities is criminally negligent IMHO. It's like a guy in your neighborhood who knowingly allows a crack dealer to operate from his living room. You don't think he should be held liable?

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    35. Re:Airport Police by Mateito · · Score: 1
      DAMN YOU SWEDEN!!

      (yeah, off topic, but funny. And you should all have seen this by now anyway... so let the stragglers catch up!)

    36. Re:Airport Police by Atzanteol · · Score: 1
      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    37. Re:Airport Police by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      I suspect he fully expected the Iraqi people to welcome the American soldiers as liberators. They didn't anticipate the fierce nationalism they found when they arrived.

      As for international will, it was probably arrogance, or a sense that this is important enough to go more-or-less unilaterally on. And Britain agreed.

      If this was about oil, well, that would just be stupid. It's easy to guess (Middle East? Oil!), and it's easily trackable. It's not even an undercover, hard-to-understand conspiracy theory.

      Besides, we get most of our oil from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, in that order.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    38. Re:Airport Police by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I don't deny my respect to people who haven't performed amazing world-changing feats.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    39. Re:Airport Police by maxpublic · · Score: 1, Informative

      Damn, but Sweden makes some mighty fine women. Must be something in the water....

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    40. Re:Airport Police by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      I guess it's very difficult for you to believe that somebody may actually believe Iraq was a threat to the world. This, after all, was what the stated purpose for the war was. Sure, Saddam may not have personally bank-rolled the terrorists, but he didn't exactly try to stop any terrorists in his country either.

      So we're going after the dictatorships now, are we? Oky-doky, that's one down, at least 150 more to go. Who's next? North Korea? China? Libya? Syria? Iran? C'mon, if we stop *now* we'll look like a bunch of lying hypocrites!

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    41. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Saddam hated Osama each other more than Bush hates either of them. Their islamic leanings didn't gel, in fact quite the opposite.

      The war was a great idea if you want oil. Seeing as it's for one of the greatest oil reserves in the world, if you win, you get lots of oil. If you push the price up in the mean time, you've won even more. It's simple.

      What about Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam - by your logic, he's as bad as Saddam, as he didn't punch his lights out.

      "Your either with us or against us" is the most ridiculous, basic argument for attacking or praising anyone ever thought up. It's pure hype and BS. You have to be a right sucker to believe in it.

      It is very hard to believe Iraq was a danger to the world. It had ridiculous weapons, a tiny army, and a leader hated by its military. It was as threatening as a dead bluebottle. If you can't see that, you've been suckered in by the pentagon, or you just missed the entire story.

      Can you give specific examples of Saddam Hussein sponsoring terrorism? I guarantee you I can find even more showing Bush's support for terrorism...

    42. Re:Airport Police by jrumney · · Score: 4, Informative
      Just like when they had the national guard monkeys running around with M16s. Absolutely no use whatsoever, but makes the American public go "Gee - we're so protected! I love our President(tm)!

      Granted, I'm not an American so maybe my perception is different, but the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".

    43. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 1

      America needs more oil. China is using up more and more, and the US is heavily dependent. Of course Bush is going to try and secure oil. There is absolutely no evidence for Saddam Hussein to be more of a threat to anyone else than any random country, yet we invade him. He just happens to have one of the largest oil reserves in the world. It's hardly a big coincidence. How Americans can put up with his bullshit is beyond me.

    44. Re:Airport Police by dangerburger · · Score: 1
      I completely agree with the above post with exception of

      If we are going to be serious about security follow El Al's procedures, most of which are deliberately kept very quiet and out of the public view.

      namely because I do not believe that the concept of security by obscurity works. The reason El Al is so successful at averting terror is because they are through. i.e. every bag is hand searched. I remember once they poured out my mom's shampoo into a container and poured it back after they verified it didnt contain anything.

      --
      Non-System foot or foot error. remove from mouth and strike any key when ready
    45. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      4. To reproduce asexually by forming a bud

      Whoa! My dad used to call me Bud.....

    46. Re:Airport Police by Colazar · · Score: 1
      The last time I flew (a month after 9-11) some kid (about 17) was trying to get on the air plane (domestic flight from Philly to LA). His ID was a High school ID and the flight attendents said "oh it's alright he is young."

      Actually, in all seriousness, what kind of ID do you think he *should* have had? Assuming he didn't drive yet, there's no particular ID that a 17 yr old would even have.

      I had to fly on 9/17/01, and my drivers license *expired* on 9/15. All the Dept of Licensing would give me was a crappy paper license without a picture. But it *was* an official document, so they had to accept it (I also had the cancelled, expired license with me, which probably helped.) But I was nervous as hell. (About getting through. Not about flying.)

      --
      He decided to just watch the government, and kind of scale it down to size, and run his life that way. --Laurie Anderson
    47. Re:Airport Police by AviLazar · · Score: 1

      Actually, in all seriousness, what kind of ID do you think he *should* have had? Assuming he didn't drive yet, there's no particular ID that a 17 yr old would even have.

      In all honesty, I don't really care about if the kid could board the plane or not. What happend on 9/11 was serious, and just barely a month after it happend people are being lax in their security. I boarded a plane a total of four times on that trip (layovers), and got searched three of those four times. I did so and was VERY happy to help in anyway possible. The kid could have had a passport, state id or drivers license, even a social security card to add to the highschool id - SOMETHING! I can print HS ID's in my own home with a machine that can be bought for less then $50.00 at an office supply store.
      When the lives of people are at stake, people going about with the mindset of "Oh it's alright he is young" is total BS. If the kids parents don't like it - they should get with the time's and get him and ID (parents were not present in this case). The kid is almost 18, he would need one (by law) soon anyhow.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    48. Re:Airport Police by rdsmith4 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR.

      But that's the point! Terror is not about killing people, it's about scaring the public and causing them to act a certain way. The train bombing in Madrid, for example, though didn't kill a whole lot of people, was completely effective because the Spanish public immediately voted in a leader with a soft spot for terrorists, and he immediately pulled all Spanish troops out of Iraq. The terrorists got what they wanted by scaring the people - not killing them.

      How safe we actually are is entirely irrelevant - it's how safe we feel.

    49. Re:Airport Police by David+Horn · · Score: 1

      It's easy enough to fake a scanner than looks at the physical pattern of your finger, but wouldn't those biometric scanners that measure resistance etc over the finger be difficult to fool with a latex mold?

      --
      PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
    50. Re:Airport Police by powerlord · · Score: 1

      personally I like their idea of undercover sharp-shooters on every flight, sort of an extension to Federal Air Marshals on all flights (that used to exist), but again, no uniform, keep everything in the appearance of normality, etc.

      The complete search and security check of all bags and passengers just makes SENSE. Its hard to believe the U.S. got away with so little security, while simultaneously ticking off so much of the world, for so long.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    51. Re:Airport Police by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Hippocracy, while a vice, is not a valid argument. A murderer claiming that murder is 'wrong', does not make murder 'right'.

      Nor is it a strong defence.

      Mistakes were made. They always will be. The US backed the wrong horse a few times in the middle east. But who hasn't? It doesn't change the fact that Saddam was a threat to the world. I think of the mid-east as a bees nest. It's a danger sitting there, and will become more so over time if you leave it be. But in getting rid of it, you've gotta stir up some angry bees!

      Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're wrong. Time will judge us both, and will do so with the convenience of hind-sight.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    52. Re:Airport Police by flosofl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How Americans can put up with his bullshit is beyond me

      Probably the same way people put up with political bullshit on Slashdot.
      They either ignore it or have a knee-jerk reaction.

      --
      "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
    53. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 4, Informative

      {sigh} So much Limbaugh-esque mythology, so little time.

      A significant factor in Afghanistan and Iraq was oil. You assert price as some sort of proof against it. But price increases are to the benefit of the producers, which the Bush family have been known to dabble in from time to time. As well as their family friends, the House of Saud.

      The whole issue of invading an oil-rich country is to control it for the current set of Oil Barons. Bush's administration is packed with folks like that. (Duh.) Price is simply not an issue.

      Iraq was no world threat. About the only sovereign place that would really find Iraq threatening was Israel. And the last time I checked, Israel wasn't the 51st American state, and had no legal representation in any American legislature. If there's anything to be said for American fears of being controlled by foreign interests, then why won't we deal with Israeli influence upon the American military?

      As for criminal negligence, you are in direct hypocritical peril considering how much of that charge can be levelled at the American CIA, FBI and military command (specifically the Commander in Chief, whom you may have heard of) when 911 was being planned and executed. Libya is far more at fault for harboring terrorists, but after Bush's speeches on Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran and North Korea, you'll note a sound basis to my skepticism about Bush's due diligence. At any rate, any lax policy in Iraq about terrorist assholes cannot justify: invading Iraq, killing tens of thousands of her citizens (remember, she had an army, not of terrorists, but of Iraqi citizens who were defending against invaders), and taking control of her infrastructure.

      The summary of my statements here would revolve around the idea that America attacked Iraq twice in 12 years for no valid reason. America cannot make the case that it was acting in self-defense, since Iraq made no moves onto American territory. And as for WMDs, we only have to look at Israel to speculate on the term "double standard".

      Face facts, Ace: you've been bamboozled into thinking that America's assaults in the Middle East are not the Imperialist moves that they actually are. Perhaps when you find that you can't even afford to bury your own war-dead sons, then you'll wake up to realize the murderous and barbaric culture that you had been supporting.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    54. Re:Airport Police by dijjnn · · Score: 1

      have you seen true fascism?

      I don't think very many people in the U.S. have.

      --
      ~dijjnn
    55. Re:Airport Police by ghum · · Score: 2, Funny

      >Sweden makes some mighty fine women.

      Alcohol is so expensive in Sweden, nobady can afford to drink ugly women nice. So the selection starts....

    56. Re:Airport Police by ryanmfw · · Score: 1

      You know, they never did seem nervous to me... Frankly, if I'm standing there with an M16, I'd feel pretty secure.

      --
      Hurricane Ivan: A 17th century prison collapsed. All of the inmates escaped.
    57. Re:Airport Police by KjetilK · · Score: 1

      How about Uzbekistan...? That's probably one of the worst dictators on the planet. but then, he's an "ally"

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    58. Re:Airport Police by dangerburger · · Score: 1
      that reminds me of this article

      magine their chagrin when a fellow passenger coming down the aisle suddenly boomed out, "Oh, I see we have air marshals on board!"

      --
      Non-System foot or foot error. remove from mouth and strike any key when ready
    59. Re:Airport Police by ChuyMatt · · Score: 1
      Yes, protecting them from people like this "Terra" chick. She has bush all riled up and all the Southern congressmen wanting to hunt her down. Her and her followers.

      I would bet this "War on Terra" is really hurting the poor girl's self-esteem. Somehow, i think the hate of Terra is misguided. Killing off terrorists sounds like a better idea to me.

    60. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 1

      The withdrawal from airport security promises happened pretty soon after 911. Other than guardsmen with M-16s but no bullets, budgets were chopped, recruitment numbers were reduced, arming of pilots was stopped, and now (as you pointed out) agency actions are working toward returning things to normal ... which is to say, wide open for a group of determined and funded terrorists. But, hey, it'll save the airlines some money, so we should just stop thinking about the topic right the f*ck now.

      Some other poster in this thread alleged Hussein was guilty of criminal negligence (hence, invading all of Iraq was justified). Funny how those types of folk don't see the same thing in the trends of airport security. But we're the good guys, so it must be A-OK.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    61. Re:Airport Police by joeljkp · · Score: 1

      Well, there was the Gulf War, when Saddam invated Kuwait over oil territorialism. There's also his history of biological and chemical weapons, and his genocidal tendencies. His egging-on of anti-US sentiment and shooting missiles at US aircraft couldn't have hurt, either. So no, you're wrong when you say that there was no evidene of Saddam being more of a threat to anyone than, say, Saudi Arabia.

      They do have the second-largest oil reserve in the world, and sure, that could prove helpful if they ever come over to our side. They're still a part of OPEC, though, and soon enough the US won't have leadership of the country. Besides, like I said before, I doubt the US would dare make any overt moves in the direction of their oil, with the world looking at them with a microscope. I wouldn't put it beyond some people, though.

      As for how we put up with stuff like the Bush administration? That's what elections are for.

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    62. Re:Airport Police by richardellisjr · · Score: 1

      Wish I had mod points, thats one of the intellegent and insightful things I've read in this thread.

    63. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iraq had nothing to do with any terrorism

      Oh really? Ask the families of dead innocent civilian Jews who died at the hands of Hamas, bankrolled by Saddam. Hamas suicide bombers' families got $25,000 per terror attack from Saddam

      Perhaps the torture chambers Saddam had will sway your opinion of whether or not Saddam was a terrorist. If you crossed him you might be fed into a wood chipper feet first, or take a swim in acid. They also electrocuted prisoners while they hung from the ceiling

      Maybe when he ordered the deaths of thousands of Kurds with chemical weapons, maybe then, that made Saddam a terrorist.

      I'm sorry my friend, but you have been social engineered by Michael Moore and the mass "elect Kerry" media. Just because WMD was not found in Iraq, and Iraq did not cause 9/11 (whoever said that was the case?) doesn't mean that Saddam's regime should have not been a target in the War on terror. If Saddam wasn't a terrorist then Slashdot is pro-microsoft.

    64. Re:Airport Police by peragrin · · Score: 1

      1) FOX news should be GOP news

      2) If it is credible(and it does look like it) then there is a single link.

      3) Saddam was pissed at the Saudi family for allowing US troops to attack Iraq from Saudi in Gulf War I. It does make sense to use another soure that is also pissed at the saudi royal family to help take out the saudi family.

      4)The enemy of your enemy is your friend, if only for a little while. Politicians love this one.

      5) there is no other mention of other targets though some could be possible.

      6) You are discounting the documents found with Saddam that told his generals not to work wih Al-quada as they want control of Iraq themselves.

      7) You are discounting the hatred between a secular president(saddam) and religous zealots.

      8) Saddam was fighting a war on two fronts, he had the U.S.A. on one side and Religous zealots on the otherside. It's now between the U.S.A. and those zealots.

      9)Bush has been known to fabricate and extend eviedence to suit his needs. Just ask why we bombed Iraq today veruses 16 months ago. In the begining it was over WMD today it's to free a repressed people.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    65. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Must be something in the water....

      Yeah... it's clean :) Seriously, in many places in Sweden I've been, the regular tapwater taste really good. Never even thought of buying water on a bottle (if I would it would be cause of the flavours).

    66. Re:Airport Police by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Limbaugh eh? Don't listen to the man...

      You state Oil as a possible motive. Good for you. Get some proof, we'll talk. We also could have gone in because GW likes sand (he's from Texas after all!). Or perhaps as 'revenge' as some have suggested. Maybe Ascroft likes the stylish looks in Iraq? Motive != Crime.

      Iraq was no world threat. About the only sovereign place that would really find Iraq threatening was Israel.
      Talk to Iran and Kuwait... Not to mention that Israel is an ally of the US. Yes, that still means something.

      As for criminal negligence, you are in direct hypocritical peril considering how much of that charge can be levelled at the American CIA, FBI and military command (specifically the Commander in Chief, whom you may have heard of) when 911 was being planned and executed.
      Yes, mistakes were made. And you're right, the CIA, FBI, and Clinton all have some responsibility here too. That's why there's the 911 commission to determine what was done poorly. Note this is NOT a total lack of effort. After 911, which Mid East nations had 911 commissions to see what they could do about terrorism?

      Face facts, Ace: you've been bamboozled into thinking that America's assaults in the Middle East are not the Imperialist moves that they actually are.
      First, don't call people you don't know 'ace'. Second, since when is handing sovereign control back to a nation after conquoring them 'imperialistic'? Talk to the UK about Imperialism...

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    67. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah... there's something about our princess :)

    68. Re:Airport Police by TimSee · · Score: 1

      With all the problems and destruction from the first Gulf War, Iraq is actually only the 9th largest refiner of crude oil, behind countries like Venezuela and Nigeria. The reason wan't oil, but rather ego.

    69. Re:Airport Police by gfilion · · Score: 2, Informative

      Granted, I'm not an American so maybe my perception is different, but the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".

      Don't worry, I read in Bruce Scheiner's Beyond Fear that there are no bullets in the M16s, it would be way too dangerous. It's really just for the show.

      Damn, the guys with these empty weapons must feel like complete morons.

    70. Re:Airport Police by StalinsNotDead · · Score: 0
      By invading Iraq he's turned it into a hotbet of terrorist activity.

      That's right. A hotbed of terrorist activity. All that terrorist activity in Iraq probably distracts people who may otherwise use their time planning, commuting to the non-Iraq country of choice, and attacking people other than soldiers or infidels in Iraq who know it's dangerous but still go there, instead of people sitting at work, drinking their coffee, trying to put in a full day's work, and then getting hit by a plane.

      In addition to keeping terrorists occupied to some extent, the action in Iraq may also be making many terrorists act hastily in anger. Agry haste generally makes for bad planning. Bad planning leads to dead terrorists.

      He actively made the world a more dangerous place.

      What? By making sure a certain uncooperative past-user of Weapons of Mass Destruction doesn't have the capacity to deploy said weapons. Regardless of whether they were found. And here's an excerpt that indicates they were.

      But another reason for the media silence may stem from the seemingly undramatic nature of the "finds" Hanson and others have described. The materials that constitute Saddam's chemical-weapons "stockpiles" look an awful lot like pesticides, which they indeed resemble. "Pesticides are the key elements in the chemical-agent arena," Hanson says. "In fact, the general pesticide chemical formula (organophosphate) is the 'grandfather' of modern-day nerve agents."


      Or perhaps you mean the decline in the number of terrorist attacks over the last 2 years.

      it was oil, plain and simple.

      Then perhaps the US should have invaded Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Canada, Venezuela and Nigeria, then invaded Iraq. here
      --
      Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
    71. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR." All morally vacant and factually challenged liberals you refuse to use the brain God gave you and apply any sense of logic, education, intelligence, or common sense. Instead of talking about issues or facts they simply spout vitriol and bigotry because they hate what Bush, Republicans, and Conservatives STAND FOR. They just hate the fact that we demand to have character, honesty, ethics, morals, and GOD in our lives. This is why Democrats and Liberals stand for NO issues and why they change what they say depending on who is listening and where they think they can get the most votes. Liberalism equals hypocracy and moral bankruptcy. When asked about why he did not vote for funding to give our soldiers in the field body armor John Kerry, in his infinate wisdom said "I VOTED FOR IT BEFORE I VOTED AGAINST IT." How does that answer why he voted against it? When blasting drivers of SUVs he was asked if he owned an SUV, as so many pictures of show him driving one and he responded "I DO NOT OWN AN SUV. MY FAMILY OWNS SUVS." How can he claim to be against SUVs when he drives them and allows his family to drive them without complaint? THE TERRORISTS ATTACKED US AND KILLED OVER 3000 AMERICAN CITIZENS. LIBERALS ALWAYS WANT EVERYONE TO FORGET THAT FACT. WHERE IS THE APOLOGY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST ABOUT 9/11? WHERE ARE THE APOLOGIES FROM THE MIDDLE EAST ABOUT THE 3 BEHEADINGS OF AMERICANS? YET LIBERALS DEMAND THAT WE APOLOGIZE FOR MISTREATMENT THAT DOES NOT EVEN INVOLVE PHYSICAL INJURY? THE EXTREME FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS ARE OBEYING THEIR REGLION WHICH STATES ALL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS MUST DIE OR THEY CANNOT GO TO HEAVEN. MUSLIMS THAT DO NOT KILL CHRISTIANS AND JEWS DO NOT GET TO GO TO HEAVEN. THIS IS WRITTEN IN THEIR BOOK THE KORAN. THIS IS WHY THE US GOVERNMENT STATES EXTREME FUNDAMENTALISTS THAT THREATEN US MUST BE KILLED. NOT TALKED TO. NOT UNDERSTOOD. NOT CODDLED. NOT APPEASED. THEY MUST BE KILLED. THIS WAR IS TO ROOT OUT TERRORISM WHERE EVER IT CAN BE FOUND AROUND THE WORLD REGARDLESS OF WHERE IT IS LOCATED. AND BY ROOTING OUT THE GOVERNMENT MEANS WE HAVE TO KILL THEM. PERIOD. AND PUTIN HIMSELF PUBLICALLY ANNOUNCED THAT HE HAD TOLD BUSH AFTER 9/11 THAT SADDAM WAS PLANNING WMD ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. WHAT OTHER REASON DID WE NEED TO ATTACK IRAQ? I KNOW, TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM A TYRANT. THE LIBERALS AND THEIR MEDIA IGNORE THE FACT THAT WMD WERE FOUND AND THEIR USE WAS ATTEMPTED AGAINST OUR TROOPS. Learn to read and use your brain instead of just swallowing the liberal propaganda like a good little communist.

    72. Re:Airport Police by StalinsNotDead · · Score: 0

      Damn, the guys with these empty weapons must feel like complete morons.

      Or sitting ducks.

      Think about making yourself the absolute most inviting target, without the ability to actually use your weapon, just to try to make people feel secure. I'd say these "monkies" deserve a little respect for that alone.

      --
      Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
    73. Re:Airport Police by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      What's really funny is that paying a compliment to the women of Sweden by commenting on their beauty was marked by some idiot as 'flamebait'. Fortunately for me my karma has been maxed out for years, which means I can do this with impunity:

      The women of Sweden are FINE. They're GORGEOUS. Some of the MOST BEAUTIFUL in the world. Absolutely STUNNING. I bow down before the radiantly RAVISHING women of frozen Scandinavia! :-)

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    74. Re:Airport Police by deuist · · Score: 1
      Can you give specific examples of Saddam Hussein sponsoring terrorism?

      Sure, he gave $25,000 to the families of every Palestinian suicide bomber.

      Saddam hated Osama each other more than Bush hates either of them.

      While Saddam and Osama may have hated each other, they did agree on attacking the Saudis.

    75. Re:Airport Police by caino59 · · Score: 1
    76. Re:Airport Police by KjetilK · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Terror is not about killing people, it's about scaring the public and causing them to act a certain way.

      Agreed.

      The train bombing in Madrid, for example, though didn't kill a whole lot of people, was completely effective because the Spanish public immediately voted in a leader with a soft spot for terrorists,

      Bullshit. Aznar was voted out because he had done everything wrong, and the bombings showed conclusively that all the things that had been done to make everybody feel so much safer was a complete failure. Furthermore, he was lying through his teeth about the events as they happened.

      Fact is, Spain has dealt with terrorism for many years, and they know very well that you can't fight terrorism with military counterattacks. It simply does not work.

      Compare with the US, which has had their tail behind the collective legs since 911, and running scared to abandon every freedom, which is pretty much the only thing the rest of the world has had reason to look up to US for. Great.

      Have a look at a piece a friend of mine wrote. He's a native of Madrid, now studying in the US, and one of the most brilliantly intelligent people that I've met. Read it carefully.

      And, oh, BTW, I've got karma to burn.... :-)

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    77. Re:Airport Police by Lours · · Score: 1

      The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR.

      But that's the point! Terror is not about killing people, it's about scaring the public and causing them to act a certain way.

      I read an essay about this subject. The guy was saying that terrorism was efficient because by killing very few people, it could influence the foreign policy of a whole country. As a matter of fact, only about 3000 were killed because of terrorism in the USA in 2001, which is a really minor cause of death compared to all others : see this graphic with all causes of death in the USA.
      In 1998, 12752 people were killed in road accidents in the USA, accounting for 51.8% of all death causes. Which means that USA citizens are killing themselves on the road much more efficiently than Al Qaida will ever be able to do using huilding-crashing planes.

      This does absolutely not mean that terrorism shouldn't be fought appropriately and that we should forget the 9/11 victims, it just means that public opinion should be more aware that it's emotional impact is much higher than it should be : we hurt ourselves every year much more than the terrorists will ever be able to hurt us.

    78. Re:Airport Police by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "He just happens to have one of the largest oil reserves in the world. It's hardly a big coincidence."

      Hmm....and just HOW have we benefitted from all this oil we 'acquired'?? We have record high prices now...

      I think if we had gone to war for oil, we'd surely be piping it directly over here, and have no problem with pricing or shortages...but, that doesn't seem to be the case.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    79. Re:Airport Police by bartle · · Score: 1

      Are you French? It was in a Paris airport that I first had some kid holding a rifle come up to me and ask if that was my bag. I don't understand why the US's upgrade to European level security is such a stain on the country.

    80. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 1
      Around here, *A*C*E*, we still rely on logic.

      Da Oil

      As several other posters have well pointed out, it's the oil, dummy. The American Army is running all over Afghanistan (remember that pipeline Unocal wanted to build?) and Iraq and you still say you need "proof". Theft requires no deed or official declarations of intent. So, it's long since time you stopped believing your own culture's outrageous propaganda. It's also morally necessary to get the Oil Barons out of the political arena before some other oil-rich sovereign nation falls under their attack.

      World Threat

      Iran? Kuwait? We were using world terms, and you're pulling border strife out of your ass as proof? GWB, Rice and others were using terms that clearly stated Iraq intended to attack America with these so-called WMDs. They were either wrong (hard to believe, since they had a $30 billion intel network at their disposal) or lying. It's become quite evident that it was the latter instance.

      As far as world threat goes, the United States is the leading terrorist nation. The CIA's exploits around the world are well documented (however much Americans wish to avoid knowing); American troops were deployed worldwide in 10s of thousands well before 911; and American attacks on other countries are also well documented (the most egregious being, attacking Iraq twice in 12 years). When it comes to a world threat, the USA surely knows one when it sees it, since IT IS ONE ITSELF ... but that taints its view and puts it into moral peril when attempting to judge.

      As for Israel ... I've told my Congresscritters expressly that supporting Israel is a vast mistake and it has too much influence in the Congress (not to mention, the Exec. Branch). Being Israel's ally is one thing; being its remotely-controlled military arm is quite another. Israel should fight its own wars with people it has serious differences with, and with whom it continues to battle.

      "Mistakes Were Made"

      Oh, screw THAT. I'm tired of hearing this from the criminal overclass, as if this exonerates them from all the murders they accomplish while they have their hands on power. Kissinger now has to check which countries he can visit safely ... since he's under indictment in several for violation of Human rights. And that's how it should be; being American and powerful should not exempt you from accounting for your butchery.

      Even now, having stomped irresponsibly over 2 ME countries without resolving the things they claimed they wanted to resolve, the American government and people can still win the rest of the world over to the idea of eradicating terrorism. However, this would mean diplomatic solutions that would involve two things the USA is so unwilling to accept:
      • The United States is not a world leader -- no one can be -- but a leading nation of several equals.
      • The United States has to respect the sovereignty of other nations and not attack them.

      In time, even Iraq's legal apparatus could have been convinced to put the smack down on terrorist (basically, armed murderers with little hopes for the future) activity. But that's the long and painful course that leads to long-lasting results. And America wants nothing but short-term actions that lead to even shorter-term results. In short, America just wants to kill and subjugate.

      Diplomacy and economic force can work wonders. But you'd have to see the results coming down the road. America has lost the vision required for this kind of thing.

      Handing Back

      Yes, the UK has proven time and again that it never really understands what (other people's) sovereignty is all about (recent Irish events more than prove that point). And this is happening in Iraq too, hence proving once again that America shares the UK imperial bug. Are you a sovereign nation when over 10

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    81. Re:Airport Police by rjamestaylor · · Score: 2, Informative
      • the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".
      How about the fact that the rifles you saw were unloaded?
      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    82. Re:Airport Police by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Almost thought this would be a good debate *ace*, but I guess you are just a troll. Ahh well. Good one though.

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    83. Re:Airport Police by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      {sigh} you can make all the derogatory comments you wish about our form of government or our current administration, but when you make stupid, generalized remarks such as In short, America just wants to kill and subjugate you pretty much lose all credibility and piss off the vast majority of Americans that have no desire whatsoever to kill and/or subjugate anyone. Given the tremendous controversy over the "War in Iraq" and the President's continuing inability to justify it to the American people I'd say you're somewhat off base there. If the Bushman loses the next election, it will be his "imperial ambitions" that get him kicked out of office.

      Imperial America. What exactly do you mean by that? Do you really know what the term "Empire" actually means? I suspect that you do not. The ancient Romans could probably have defined it for you. Certainly the British could: they maintained the greatest Empire the world has ever known, and did it by annexing nation after nation. America has annexed very little, and usually ends up returning every nation we've ever conquered in battle to its original citizenry. Using Japan as an example, we not only relinquished power, but rebuilt that country from the ground up into a major industrial power. You need to study a little more military history before you make statements like that. You might also want to read up on the sheer quantity of foreign aid that America sends overseas. Not the kind of behavior that one would expect of an Imperial power: empires generally want the goodies to flow the other way and they don't want to pay for them.

      And speaking of military history, governments that do exercise Imperial ambitions in any meaningful way have to be either a. totalitarian states or b. have the unwavering support of their populations. Furthermore, imperialism requires some form of government that has consistent long-term leadership and vision, and that cannot be said of ours. In fact, it is damned hard for any program of consequence to survive the next administration. The idea that the United States (which, by the way, has been substantially reducing its military capability in the past decade or so ... see: Clinton) is, well, silly.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    84. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant, unloaded M16s.

    85. Re:Airport Police by odie_q · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Who do you think a terrorist will shoot first, the guy with the M16 or the unarmed guy?

      --
      ...ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    86. Re:Airport Police by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      As a Swede, I can only be pleased to see that your post got modded +1 Informative and the one you replied to received +1 Insightful. :) Who would mod such statements flamebait? Who the hell is being flamed?

      Also I agree with your last paragrap of course :-)

    87. Re:Airport Police by jrumney · · Score: 1
      That probably explains why they looked so nervous.

      It has improved, it was about six weeks after 9-11 happened, at the airport where two of the planes took off from when I went through, so they'd pulled all these army guys in with no training, and everyone was still tense with the twin towers fresh in their mind. At least now they've had time to give them some training, and it seems they're picking slightly older more experienced soldiers for the job (probably so they can send the young ones off to Iraq).

    88. Re:Airport Police by Wild+Wizard · · Score: 1

      The unarmed man of course, if you think otherwise then you do not understand terrorism

    89. Re:Airport Police by rjamestaylor · · Score: 1

      Ha ha. Not funny.

      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    90. Re:Airport Police by nyseal · · Score: 1

      Missing the point? Maybe you should be the one figuring it out. If you believe for one second that Sadaam and his regime had no special interest in taking down the US by indirectly funding and/or training terrorists within his borders, you're crazy. Oil is a perk, not a motivating factor in this case.

      --
      [SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
    91. Re:Airport Police by nyseal · · Score: 1

      This was modded as 'Insightful'? Oh my God, I give up.

      --
      [SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
    92. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 1

      (Sorry for the delay, I was away for the weekend.)

      Losing credibility and pissing people off are irrelevent to the truth. The truth is Americans in general are perfectly comfortable with attacking other countries that they deem are animalistic and evil ... and invariably African, Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern countries qualify. Bush's "Axis of Evil" was only his attempt to sell the idea of authorized murder (in Iraq alone, 10s of thousands of people with invariably darker skin) to America's ~80% White population; what a shock, they bought!

      The rest of the world well understands this. That Americans refuse to acknowlege their own Imperial behavior is also irrelevent.

      You may not like the term Imperial America, but methinks thou dost protest too much. America like any Empire has stationed its troops around the world in groups of 100s to 100Ks (who needs annexation when you effectively occupy the place anyway?). What do you think a nuclear carrier group is for, defense? No, it's for "steaming" across the world and attacking other countries ... WHICH IS AN IMPERIAL ACT. America just likes to dress up its murderous intentions and actions by playing the "Humanitarian" card. Killing "Communists" is still murder. Killing "Terrorists" is still murder. Killing "Tyrants" is ... waaaait for it: STILL MURDER. All we have to do is wait for the next label to be applied to some group that America wants DEAD.

      Fight that all you want, the documentation makes your complaints like unto the bleating of a sheep. America is a sick and vicious Empire, like ALL Empires. Working to oppose other Empires (USSR, China, etc.) does not justify all the death and misery that America's military and CIA has brought to the world. Stomping out Communism did not justify the $30 billion CIA murder machine.

      Your willful ignorance of that, and implied viciousness in supporting it, are just pathetic. But don't shut up. No, we need to know exactly who you sick fucks are. Keep talking so we know what an Ugly American really looks like. The worst thing with America's Imperial attitude was that people tried to hide it, and at least we can credit the butchers in the Bush Administration with the honesty to admit they want to kill towelheads.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    93. Re:Airport Police by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but this dialog can serve no further purpose. Good day.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    94. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 1

      Hey, wait, don't go away. You must be sitting on a gold mine of data about how the American CIA goes around spreading sweetness and light, in contrast to the "Liberal Media" who tries to dig up irrelevancies like assassinations and terrorist plots (I think those damned Libs dug up another one in South America recently about how the CIA planned airliner attacks to use fear to support the then-current regime ... hey, wait, that sounds straaaaangely familiar).

      No, really, if you've some documentation that demonstrates how something like "rebuilding Iraq's electrical infrastructure" is so much better than the "bombing and shooting 10s of thousands of Iraqis" that made it necessary, then I'll be very glad to educate myself on it.

      Peace, bro. No, really, I mean it: let there be peace.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    95. Re:Airport Police by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I feel the same way. I guess that's the downside of a system like Slashdot's ... they'll let pretty much anyone post. I shouldn't have bothered.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  2. As a self-appointed representative of ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 5, Funny
    the Security Industry, I'd just like to say:

    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

    Please remember this the next time a non-productive "feature" is uncovered.

    1. Re:As a self-appointed representative of ... by Dovregubbens+Hall · · Score: 1
      Well, according to this article, that's pretty much the reaction she got, yes.... :-)

      And for the /. droolers, it's a picture of the girl herself there. Some "Security Industry Salesmen" probably had their prejudices about blond girls thoroughly whacked....

  3. Easy Solution by Mz6 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't let your fingerprints get copied. Wear gloves ALL the time. Problem solved.

    --
    Hmmm.
    1. Re:Easy Solution by endx7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even when you are using the scanner?

    2. Re:Easy Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, even then.

      Wear your gloves when you are getting your fingerprints done to solve the problem.

    3. Re:Easy Solution by jacksonyee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So what happens when some law enforcement organization such as the police or the passport office want to take your fingerprints? Do you deny their request and don't get anything done, or do you use glove prints rather than fingerprints. Even worse, what if someone hacks into the police database and creates fake gloves with other people's fingerprints etched in them?

      As much as the privacy advocates will laugh at this news article, fingerprints have been a proven source of clues for law enforcement agencys for decades. Nowadays, we have more sophisticated methods of detecting whether someone might have been at the scene of a crime or not, but fingerprinting is nice, quick, easy, and obvious. Of course, every system in existence can be fooled, and if you're really willing to break the system, you can. However, I hate to think that people other than the tinfoil hat crowd would be so concerned about fingerprints that they would wear gloves all the time. This is much more a legislative issue than it is a technological issue. Unless we stop legislative processes invading our privacy, technological means will be only a band-aid onto the root of the problem.

    4. Re:Easy Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, you are thinking WAY too much into it. It was a joke.

    5. Re:Easy Solution by Short+Circuit · · Score: 3, Informative

      There was a piece on NPR last week about an American who was charged with terrorism in Spain because his fingerprint was there. He was in America at the time the event occured, but two fingerprint experts (his own and the FBI's) verified that the prints matched.

      Fortunately for him, Spain independantly matched the fingerprint to a known terrorism suspect then in Spain. The only reason the fingerprint matched the American was because it was slightly smudged.

    6. Re:Easy Solution by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

      I have no fingers, you insensitive clod!

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    7. Re:Easy Solution by Zone-MR · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even worse, what if someone hacks into the police database and creates fake gloves with other people's fingerprints etched in them?

      That's why fingerprint databases don't store the full image of a fingerprint, only hashes which can verify a fingerprint, but not reconstruct it.

    8. Re:Easy Solution by seanm666 · · Score: 1

      However, I hate to think that people other than the tinfoil hat crowd would be so concerned about fingerprints that they would wear gloves all the time.

      Yeah, it gets way too hot wearing gloves all the time. That's why I cut the skin of my fingertips off with a scapel once a month (Se7en was such an educating movie).
    9. Re:Easy Solution by AlecC · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong, I think. They index the databases using hashes, because otherwise a linear search of the whole database would take forever. But if they get a hit, they pull up the raw data to let a human have an opinion of the quality of the match. It doesn'rt matter during the detection stage, but courts won't take a machine's word for it on the match - they insist on a human experts opinion on the match between suspect and scene-of-crime.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    10. Re:Easy Solution by ars · · Score: 1

      I remember one time when applying for a renewal of an expired green card they wanted a fingerprint of one finger which I gave (it's on the crard!). Then like 8 months! later they asked me to provide a fingerprints from all 5 fingers. Well due to mail problems I didn't get that letter for 4 months. Literally 1 week after I finally did get it (and I didn't really want to give all my fingerprints just from a privacy point of view, so I procrastinated), I got the green card in the mail. So yes it took 1 year, just for a renewal! (And meanwhile I couldn't leave the country or I would have no way to get back in.) So one way to avoid giving your prints is just to keep on procrastinating :)

      --
      -Ariel
    11. Re:Easy Solution by Charlie+Bill · · Score: 1

      I too was thinking of the flip "well, who cares about fraud, ain't going to hurt *me* any," except then I realized that with this technology there will be scenarios that go like this:

      Big Government Agency impliments fingerprint scanning for everyone on their "baddies" list who, presumably, already have their fingerprints on file. Baddy "X" takes a gel-mold of his girlfriend's prints and sails right on by a rather large hole in security...

  4. J311-0 by lunarscape · · Score: 5, Funny
    The experiments focus on making artificial fingerprints in gelatin from a latent fingerprint

    That's great to know that some of the world's most sophisticated security systems can be circumvented with Jell-O

    1. Re:J311-0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr Biafra unavailable for comment.

    2. Re:J311-0 by Braingoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bill Cosby would be proud Hey kids would jou like to try some Jell-o. jou can even use it to steal yor parents credit card number to buy more jell-o!

    3. Re:J311-0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad to see that Jell-O is finally 0n t3h sp0k3.

  5. So if you can open your car with fingerprints... by cacheMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    make sure not to touch your car much or leave it parked in the same place too long.

  6. fix? by ncurses · · Score: 2, Interesting

    An easy way to fix this, although I am no expert, is to make the fingerprint scanners heat sensitive. If the fingerprint matches and is within 1 degree of 98.6 F, then it opens. I think that would prevent people from holding a thing of gelatin against it, and it would prevent people from holding a lighter under it, because it has to be within 1 degree. It's not a flawless way to fix it, but it would make it at least a bit more difficult to foil, neh?

    --
    Help! I'm being repressed!
    1. Re:fix? by nearl · · Score: 1

      What about people like me that have a running temp of around 97.0 degrees. I am suspecting that the range of temperatures that it would have to cover is greater than you think.

    2. Re:fix? by tomcio.s · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not at all actually, your extremedies (hands, feet) change temperature faster than the core of your body, and most people's extremedies are either colder (more common) or warmer (?) than the core of their body. So to make it heat sensitive would be to deny access to most users.

    3. Re:fix? by Mz6 · · Score: 1

      OK, So, is there a time limit then that exists that you have stand there and hold your finger against the sensor? The average internal body temperature is ~98.5, but that doesn't mean your external temperature would be the same or be a constant all the time and between different people. I'm not so sure that would work.

      --
      Hmmm.
    4. Re:fix? by ecklesweb · · Score: 3, Insightful
      A person's external skin temp is going to be a lot less than 98.6, and I think it's going to be a lot more variable than a person's internal temperature. Even if that wasn't true, your system would deny access to anyone with a cold and a 1.1 degree fever. Beyond all that, how much harder would it be to mold that fake fingerprint into, say, latex intead of gelatin, and then putting it on the end of an electric heater that pumps out your magic 98.6 degrees?

      Is this is the state of our security today?

    5. Re:fix? by SlamMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Won't work, for all the reasons specified. However, what about recording the body temperature as well as the fingerprint?

      --
      Mod point free since 2001
    6. Re:fix? by mirko · · Score: 1

      He should infra-red scan you in order to determinate your actual average temperature and then check that your fingerprint's temperature measuzres accordingly and expectedly.

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    7. Re:fix? by spectrokid · · Score: 1

      Another good one would be conductivity and capacitance. Easy to measure, should be within a certain range... Gelatine is probably higly resistive.

      --

      10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

    8. Re:fix? by timlee · · Score: 1

      I don't think that will work. Body surface temprature and core body temprature differs a great amount. In fact, body surface temprature differs by varying amounts. Have you ever shook someone's hand and realized that they were ice cold? That sort of thing will pose a problem to temprature sensors.

      The best way to keep someone from going in your front door is to simply put more locks on your door. I say use a series of recognition devices varying from high tech solutions (voice or iris scanners) to to low tech solutions (security guards).

    9. Re:fix? by Threni · · Score: 1

      >He should infra-red scan you in order to determinate your actual average
      >temperature and then check that your fingerprint's temperature measuzres
      >accordingly and expectedly.

      How would that work in winter?

    10. Re:fix? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not a flawless way to fix it, but it would make it at least a bit more difficult to foil, neh?

      It would also be impossible to use. 98.6 degrees is the temperature of certain orifices in your body. These orifices are generally pretty good at maintaining a certain amount of heat. However, your hands and feet are extremities that do not keep a constant temperature. In fact, your body will sometimes shut off the blood flow if it needs the heat somewhere else.

      This means that you'll never be able to accurately predict the lower bounds of finger temperature. Someone may have just been outside in cold weather. Or they may have poor blood flow to their hands (e.g. my wife's hands barely even show up on an heat sensitive screen). Similarly, they may have just touched a warm car door, or lit up a cigarette. Maybe they have some coffee in their hands.

      Basically, there's almost no way short of human or artificial intelligence to near flawlessly determine if the fingerprint belongs to a real human or not.

    11. Re:fix? by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The temperature of your fingertips is going to vary widely. If you've been holding a cup of coffee, it'll jack up to 110, 120 maybe, if you just came inside it could be down around 60 or so.

      98 degrees is an average core body temperature, extremedies generally run cooler. Thats why your testicles hang down - they dont work at 98 degrees, they need to be cooler. It's also why briefs and tight pants make you sterile.

      Besides, all you'd have to do is put the fake finger in a cup of warm (98 degree) water..

      I think the real solution is to realize that this kind of shit only works in movies or cartoons right now.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    12. Re:fix? by HaloZero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless it's ballistics gelatin. The stuff, allegedly, can almost match the conductivity of human flesh. Don't you watch MythBusters? (:-P)

      --
      Informatus Technologicus
    13. Re:fix? by evenparity · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't think so. The intruder would just keep the jello in his pocket until he was ready to foil the scanner. Moreover, 98.6 is mean body temperature. Not only does it range from person to person, but from body part to body part. The problem with all these systems is that they still relies on a static digitization of something that can be attacked at another level. It is not hard to spoof the hardware. Was it on slashdot that I was reading about security cameras that analyzed a person's gait? I think would be harder to fool. (Just don't show up drunk.)

    14. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Though core body temperature may average 98.6 F, the surface temperature of the skin varies tremendously. The use of temperature seems an unlikely fix because of the inherent variability of skin temperature. Imagine, for example, not being able to get into your fingerprint-keyed car because your hands are too cold.

    15. Re:fix? by Quatermass · · Score: 1
      Don't forget you can also test for blood flow?

      BTW, I tested the tip of my index finger - 95deg F

      --
      Stuart http://stuarthalliday.com/
    16. Re:fix? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've worked with machines that try to calculate body fat percentage by measuring conductivity across a person's body. What they really measure is how hydrated a person is. The fluctuation is proably less when measuring just a finger or hand. Hand lotion would proabably mess with conductivity, too.

      -B

    17. Re:fix? by mirko · · Score: 1

      The fp scanner would supposedly be indoors.

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    18. Re:fix? by lachlan76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And what if i'm sick and I need to go through?

      How many people would want to live at work every time they get the flu? Someone would let them out eventually, but it makes thing harder. And I can rub the gelatin mould in my hand, to warm it up.

    19. Re:fix? by evenparity · · Score: 1
      Found a reference on gait analysis for security. Kinda old, but an interesting read:

      Zdnet

    20. Re:fix? by Mordaximus · · Score: 1

      Other posters have pointed out that 98.6F is core temperature. But I can think of at least three perfectly normal and understandable reasons why a person's finger temperature would be hotter / colder than normal :

      -the user was holding a coffee, or a can of soft drink before trying to gain admittance.

      -Or it's winter and they just took off their gloves.

      -User went to washroom, and cleaned their hands, with water that is colder or warmer than their skin temperature, or dried them with friction or blown heat.

      -They are ill even!

      You're on the right track though... fingerprints alone cannot be trusted. Finger temperature is not the way to go though.

    21. Re:fix? by hplasm · · Score: 0

      Just for interest, when did the mean human body temp change from 98.4 to 98.6 F? Did I miss the memo?

      --
      ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
    22. Re:fix? by ncurses · · Score: 1

      Well, then even the thief would have the same temp as the intended person.

      How about a plain ol' number/key pad.

      p498mgyespr2fmg is harder to crack than a fingerprint.

      --
      Help! I'm being repressed!
    23. Re:fix? by Threni · · Score: 1

      > The fp scanner would supposedly be indoors.

      Ok. I was thinking about a solution that worked on outside doors, ATM machines etc.

    24. Re:fix? by neodymium · · Score: 1

      Did you read the thesis at all ? In there, it is explicitly stated that epidermic temperatures at extremities like hands are between 26C and 30C. Thin silicone oder gelatine layers lower the temperature by max. 2C, so it is well in the accepted range.

    25. Re:fix? by vk2 · · Score: 1

      Or just have a gelatin reacting (safe to humans) chemical spray (similar to luminol) before a finger print is recorded for legal purposes like at the airport registration or the dmv registration.

      --
      No Sig for you.!
    26. Re:fix? by timlee · · Score: 1

      Human Body Temperature

      Quote: A body temperature of 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit is considered normal.

    27. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, do they have winter where you live?

      Ever had cold fingers?

    28. Re:fix? by SlamMan · · Score: 1

      Couldn't agree more. Few things beat the long number pad and keycard combination.

      --
      Mod point free since 2001
    29. Re:fix? by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      Extremities don't warm up the instant you come in from the cold.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    30. Re:fix? by macemoneta · · Score: 1
      "what about recording the body temperature as well as the fingerprint?"

      Don't get sick.

      --

      Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

    31. Re:fix? by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      They should use one of those fingertip pulse measurement things that the EMTs use - that would validate the fingerprint and that it was attached to a living, breathing, human being.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    32. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. As a access control security type myself this isnt really news. No one method of physical security is enough if you are serious. There is an old saying in the industry:

      Systems serious about security should have at least 2 of the following tokens to grant access

      1. Something you known(ie a PIN or password)
      2. Something you have(ie a prox or swipe card)
      3. Something you are(ie fingerprint scan, retina scan)

      No one item is fullproof or no two or three items are foolproof really. But picking any two of those enhances security greatly. Also its always a good idea to have stuff like duress buttons/PINs(these are PINs that grant access but raise a silent alarm but still grant access - think guy holding a gun to a guards head demanding to type/give his pin)

    33. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's an easy fix: do some research before posting an uneducated and idiotic thought... MORON.

    34. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the paper (10.1):
      "Interesting to notice is that a capacitive, an electric-field, and a thermal sweeping sensor were all circumvented with artificial fingerprints."

    35. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about having the scanner manned by a PERSON who visually checks the finger in question before it is scanned?

    36. Re:fix? by MeanSolutions · · Score: 1

      Bad idea.

      There is something called 'nicotin' that about half the world uses and that has a nasty little side-effect of contracting blood vessels in your extremities, hence causing them to become cooler than normal. Most peoples hands are normally about 36C while if you use nicotin your hands can easily drop in temperature to about 31C - 33C.

      Just accept that there is no 'silver bullet' for security. Any system can be circumvented, some more easily than others.

      --
      Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.
    37. Re:fix? by rcamans · · Score: 1

      The only real fix is to have multiple scanners.
      Fingerprint, voiceprint, eye, face, smart ID card, etc.
      That will limit the number of people trying to sneak in the front door.
      Wait a minute, people sneak in the back door by the millions! (Mexico, Canada, smuggling boats)
      Damn. Crap.
      The gov is spending billions of dollars to screen the fools who come in the front door, annoying all the people legitimately using the front door, when thousands of terrorists have probably come in the back door.
      Wait a minute, terrorists get born in the USA all the time! Big back door! Ted blew up the federal building.
      Kozinski sent mail bombs.
      Someone blew up the thing in Atlanta.
      Someone was mailing anthrax or whatever.
      And they still have not caught some of them.
      Damn. Crap.

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    38. Re:fix? by andrewbaldwin · · Score: 1

      It changed when people started using centigrade (celcius).

      37 degrees C = 98.6 degrees F (or 310 deg K if you prefer)

      The difference is small enough to be within the bounds of normal variation.

    39. Re:fix? by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 1
      An easy way to fix this, although I am no expert, is to make the fingerprint scanners heat sensitive. If the fingerprint matches and is within 1 degree of 98.6 F, then it opens.

      so how does this keep people from holding the fake finger(prints) against their body to warm them up, or what about people who are running a fever or who naturally have cold fingers? i am no expert but i would assume that you would find that people's fingers run at a wide range of temperatures.

    40. Re:fix? by mustangsal66 · · Score: 1

      Sorry dude. Doesn't always work that way. 98.6 F is the average body temp. For example, my normal body temp is 96.2 F, my wifes is 98.9F, until she goes to bed them it's 102F at the thight, and 44F at the feet. I'd add bio-capacitance to the finger print. (Old technology, but whatever touches the scanner has to be able to pass electricity)

      --
      Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
      Sig changed for readability by G.W.
    41. Re:fix? by Mephie · · Score: 1
      It would also be impossible to use.

      No it wouldn't.

      The FP reader in my laptop is heat-sensitive. It certainly has a greater variance than simply one degree plus or minus. However, if, for example, I am holding a cold bottle of water and put it down and place my finger on my FP reader, it will not accept the scan. If I rub my finger against my other hand to warm it up via friction and scan it again, my system will unlock.

      This behaviour is consistent across many tests which eliminates the possibility that I am simply placing my finger off-center during the first scan attempt.

      Can it still be beaten? Sure. I have yet to see much of anything that's unbeatable. But it definitely makes it harder.

    42. Re:fix? by Lemmeoutada+Collecti · · Score: 1

      And if someone like myself were to ever need access, then I guess we're just screwed. You see, those infraded pulse meters don't work on everyone. Nor would a body temperature sensor with a 1 degree range work. My body temperature is regularly under by 2-4 degrees. The EMT pulse monitors say my heart only beats 50% of the time.

      But other than just not fitting the 'Norm' I am very healthy.

      Besides, what stops me from wearing the print as a glove, thus warming it and providing a pulse?

      --

      You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
    43. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats why your testicles hang down


      You're assuming an aweful lot about /. readers. Oh, wait, nevermind.

    44. Re:fix? by mikael · · Score: 1

      I could just imagine the sign in front of the door:

      "Please stand above the point marked X, and wait for the automatic probe to be inserted, wait 30 seconds, and then step forward once the probe is retracted".

      Eat one too many spicy chili meal's before flying and you're grounded!

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    45. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great... Now instead of scanning fingerprints they'll just require an AnalPrint® scan.

      "Excuse me sir, this is a secure area. Please drop your pants."

    46. Re:fix? by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      Great... now if I sprain my ankle I won't be able to get through security.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    47. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. Or how about someone running a fever. Or having a hot flush (don't laugh, you lot, it isn't funny to those of us of a Certain Age). Or has very poor circulation in their hands. And I'm willing to bet that it is perfectly possible to make a thin fake fingerprint that you apply to your finger that will end up at normal body temperature anyway.

    48. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      analprint? sounds kinda like my work's copy machine.

    49. Re:fix? by RealErmine · · Score: 1

      We should look to Futurama for inspiration in new security measures:

      Bank Teller: "Hmm...we don't seem to have you retina scan, your fingerprint or your colonic map on file."

      --
      Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
    50. Re:fix? by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Right, there's the thing most people overlook. How do we know it's a real finger? Have a friggin guard inspect the persons hand!

      It's like that scene in the movie of "Mission Impossible" with Tom Cruise on a wire surrounded by high tech detectors. The whole thing would have been a lot more difficult had they simply put a guard *in* the room!

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    51. Re:fix? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Somehow I doubt my hands will be within 1 degree of 37C in the middle of a Canadian winter when its -45C outside. Of course a good solution to that would be to carry a gelatin fingerprint model in my pocket, close to my skin to keep it warm.....hmmm sounds sort of like the copy protected CDs that they are now withdrawing from Europe because they found it increased online piracy. Nobody was sure that they would be able play their CDs on their computer so they used p2p to get the music online!!

    52. Re:fix? by dangerburger · · Score: 1

      did you RTFAits not a thing of gelatin its a "wafer thin" coating on your real finger

      --
      Non-System foot or foot error. remove from mouth and strike any key when ready
    53. Re:fix? by zoloto · · Score: 1

      98.7 deg is your core body temperature.

      your extremities almost ALWAYS have lower temperature unless you're taking a shower (I use HOT HOT water) or if you're working with HOT/cold objects for a while.

    54. Re:fix? by hugesmile · · Score: 1
      98.6 degrees is the temperature of certain orifices in your body.

      Actually, it's been said that 98.6 is an over-precise statement of the average body temperature. 37 degrees celcius converts to 98.666..., but 37 degrees is only accurate to the one's place.

      This means that the actual average body temperature is between 36.5 (inclusive) and 37.5 (exclusive). Greater than or Equal to 36.5 and Less than 37.5

      After conversion, this puts us at the average being between 97.7 and 99.5

      So if you have a temperature of 99.2, don't sweat it, so to speak.

    55. Re:fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That won't work for me. My normal body temp is 97 F; 98.6 F is a low grade fever for me.

    56. Re:fix? by nyseal · · Score: 1

      What if the person being scanned has a cold?

      --
      [SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
  7. In the great words of Sean Connery by imranius · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I'll show you a finger, Trebek!"

    - SNL Celebrity Jeopardy

    1. Re:In the great words of Sean Connery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's no finger - you're faking it!

  8. Something you have and Something you know by VinceWuzHere · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I really don't think that ANY biometric system will be foolproof until the old basic of security is implemented. The scheme is called "Something you have and Something you know" (someone out there does know the right name even if I can't remember it at the moment).

    Think of the simple RSA keyfob some of us carry; it gives us a number and we use that PLUS a password to get into secure systems (have + know).

    Carry this one step further and have the system check your fingerprint/handprint/iris/whatever PLUS ask for a password.

    I personally think it's damn scary in this age of terrorism that someone could fake a biometric and get onto a plane; if the airlines for example issued me a unique password to go along with fingerprint (or whatever) recognition then I'd feel a whole bunch better about the entire process and the underlying technologies.

    1. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Tryfen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The mantra used to be something you know (password), something you have (ID card), something you are (fingerprint).

      The problem is that "something you are" is just a really weak version of "Something you have". Why is it weak? Because once it is compromised, you can never get it back. Never.

      If my RSA fob is stolen, I can get it reissued. If my password is stolen, I generate a new one. What am I supposed to do when my fingerprint shows up on Kazza? Sure, I can use one of the other nine, then once they're compromised, use my toes, after that...?

      Biometrics have a (small) part to play in security. But relying on them for anything important is daft.

      T

      --
      If a square is really a rhombus, why aren't all triangles purple?
    2. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      Right, because the 09/11 hijackers had to fake ID to get on their planes. Oh wait. No, they didn't--they complied with all ID requirements using their real ID.

      If you must fear something, fear sleeper agents more than known international terrorists. Besides, terrorists hit where you don't expect (so, planes should be safe for the foreseeable future).

    3. Re:Something you have and Something you know by BluedemonX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The reason why many of these systems don't have a "something you have, something you know is".... because somebody (whose "software company" consists of nothing but patent lawyers sitting on ideas) patented that idea.

      None of the companies that manufacture biometric scanning technology can implement that without running afoul of the patent.

      And the amount this shyster company is asking for is ludicrous. Hence, that kind of system is never used.

      --

      --- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
    4. Re:Something you have and Something you know by vladb · · Score: 0

      I'm wondering if DNA "fingerprinting" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_fingerprinting) may be a viable alternative to existing technology. For example, conventional finger print probes could be replaced with devices that sample DNA from a skin tissue or a blood sample. I think the former would be a safer method for public access authorization devices (e.g. checking people at airports, private property etc) as it doesn't require drawing of blood.

    5. Re:Something you have and Something you know by dave420 · · Score: 1

      "Age of terrorism" - that's hilarious. Do you watch Fox?

    6. Re:Something you have and Something you know by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now, a clever man would not use a plane, because he would know that only a great fool would repeat the same method. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose to attack with a plane. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly have to attack with a plane.
      Because counter-terrorist come from America, as everyone knows. And the America's is entirely peopled with infidels. And infedels are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not attack with a plane.
      and you must have suspected I would have known you where an infidel, so I can clearly have to attack with a plane.
      You've beaten my Sadam, which means you're exceptionally strong. So, you could have placed your men on the plane, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose to attack with a plane. But, you've also bested my sleeper cells. And in studying, you must have learned that terrorist are dangerious so you would stay as far away from us as possible, so I can clearly attack with a plane.

    7. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Lord_Frederick · · Score: 1

      What a time to be without mod points!

      +5 Funny for effective use of Princess Bride reference.

    8. Re:Something you have and Something you know by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      You're stalling!

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    9. Re:Something you have and Something you know by valkraider · · Score: 2, Funny

      Son of a beeyatch. Yesterday I waste mod points because I find nothing worth modding... Then Today - there is this, just dying for Mod points...

      Mod parent up, +1 Princess Bride

    10. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Entrope · · Score: 1
      I really don't think that ANY biometric system will be foolproof until the old basic of security is implemented. The scheme is called "Something you have and Something you know" (someone out there does know the right name even if I can't remember it at the moment).

      You're probably thinking of "three-factor security." The most secure identification is based on three different kinds of factors: something you have, something you know, and something you are. Frequently you can get away with just one or two factors because you do not need the confidence from checking all three.

      Naive security -- no matter which factor it involves -- is easy to undermine, so you want a real person watching to make sure nobody is trading access cards, whispering passwords, or carrying around gelatin fingertips.

    11. Re:Something you have and Something you know by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Could you post a link or information about which company this is?

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    12. Re:Something you have and Something you know by bogado · · Score: 1

      Now you're just stalling. :-D :-D :-D

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

    13. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Mephie · · Score: 1
      So you're saying someone patented the multiple authentication logon requirement?

      You're crazy.

      I personally own systems that I can set to require a passphrase, smart card and finger print in order to allow logon, system unlock, application launch for certain applications, file/folder encryption/decryption.

      I certainly don't own that patent, and the company I work for consists of much more than patent lawyers sitting on ideas.

    14. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Mephie · · Score: 1

      You'd like to think that!

    15. Re:Something you have and Something you know by dcsmith · · Score: 1

      One word - GATTACA

      --
      This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
    16. Re:Something you have and Something you know by ezzewezza · · Score: 1

      Best abuse of Princess Bride EVER!

    17. Re:Something you have and Something you know by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Cute, but remember this. The only reason that 9/11 went as badly as it did was that the other passengers assumed that if they just obeyed the terrorists for a few hours, they could put it all behind them and get on with their lives. When the passengers in the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania realized this was not the case, they stopped the terrorists. Now no one in the world is assuming that if terrorists take control of a plane (or anything else), they will have the opportunity to walk away if they just obey the terrorists.

      What this means is that, if terrorists attack again, they will do it in such a way that hostage complacency is not an option. Hostages will be disabled, killed, or held with overwhelming force. All of these have their drawbacks, one of them being resources (terrorists, mostly). This is why, for the longest time, car bombings and such have been so popular - they use very little resources (one or two poorly trained terrorists). The reason the 9/11 attacks were attractive was the risk-to-reward ratio. Sure, none of them were walking away from it, and they required extensive training, but the chance to strike at the heart of the enemy (WTC => economic, Pentagon => military, political was stopped?) was too great. But it had one great assumption that was beyond the control of the terrorists. Fortunately, years of experience had left some indication of how the hostages would behave, and they were right.

      Also, keep in mind the goal of terrorism: to instill terror. Repeated failures don't tend to achieve that, so doing any activity with a fair chance of failure is counterproductive.

      This leaves some simple assumptions for the terrorists' next move. They won't do anything that requires people to just sit back and wait. That means any potential hostages will be dealt with immediately, or their plan has to have a very short timeline. Also, it will have to be either unexpected, or unavoidable. Car bombings are a perfect example of this: They're expected, but unavoidable; They have no hostages; and, they have a short timeline.

      There may be other actions that fit these criteria, but I can't think of any. One thing is certain, they will either use ubiquitous methods, or be quite innovative (unavoidable, or unexpected), and the problem with innovative is it's only innovative the first time. Hence, it's usually the last time.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    18. Re:Something you have and Something you know by ars · · Score: 1
      Sure, I can use one of the other nine,
      Actually you only have 4 more. At least on my hands the corresponding fingerprints are identical on each hand, just mirror image.

      Which leads me to a question: The thesis states:

      .....but the exact formation of the fingerprint is a consequence of random events. The exact position of the foetus in the womb at a particular moment, and the exact composition and density of surrounding amniotic fluid, decide how every individual ridge will form....
      So how is it possible that the corresponding fingerprints are identical for each finger on my hands?
      --
      -Ariel
    19. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's crazy or the system is crazy?

    20. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > So how is it possible that the corresponding fingerprints are identical for each finger on my hands?
      Simple; they're not! They're usually quite similar, but if you ink them and check up close, there are enough differences for them to be considered distinct and unique.

    21. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Mephie · · Score: 1

      Eh, both. What the hell, right?

    22. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is simply not true, at least in Australian. I use to work in a project that was implementing a system that used all three concepts to authenticate people. There are no encumbering patents to my knowledge and I would have known about them if there were any. The real reason this type of system is not used is the implementation (installation, establishment of trusted authentication authorities ...) and ongoing running costs are huge. The hardware, software, licences and consumables (smart cards and readers) are relatively cheap. The costs are really in establishing and maintaining the policies and procedure associated with maintaining a trusted system. You have to remember that security is not a product. With most system the acquistion costs are around 20% of the total costs of ownership. Unfortunatly for security systems this ratio can be closer to 99%.

  9. Damn! by Cros13 · · Score: 1

    I'm going to try it. get myself arrested, etc. etc. might rob a bank....

    --
    --cros13
  10. So you can expect... by manavendra · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ..the passports to be changed yet again, to have "better", "smart" fingerprint recognition/imprinting techniques?

    --
    http://efil.blogspot.com/
  11. Are you surprised? by The_Real_Nire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These have been, and probably always will be easy to fool. If anyone needs ultra-high security, it's doubtful that they'd choose this form of biometrics to begin with, unless they themselves are foolish.

    As is true with any security measure, if it can br beaten, the geeks will find a way.

    1. Re:Are you surprised? by Mz6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which still means that ANY highly secretive area will still be secured by a person (as is with the military). This person will know everyone that is allowed access into that area. Thus no need for a finger-printing device, then an eye scanner like in the movies. People will still do this.

      --
      Hmmm.
    2. Re:Are you surprised? by dknight · · Score: 1

      Umm, I hate to break it to you, but there are many secured areas in the military that dont have people watching them. Sure, there are people on the very ouside areas, but the more you get in, the fewer people around watching you.

    3. Re:Are you surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must not be high enough then. Most areas that require top level access, such as presidential or even somewhat below that, does not use machines to verify autheticity to get access into certian rooms. You have to get passed the 2 guards with loaded M-16s. Gonna stay AC on this one... sorry.

  12. Cheap scanners are easy to fool by ash5g · · Score: 0, Troll

    and always will be. If they could fool the proper scanners than that would be a surprise. Why would you do your master on this? It's like saying that cheap cars are less reliable than luxary ones. Thank you Captiain Obvious.

    1. Re:Cheap scanners are easy to fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's like saying that cheap cars are less reliable than luxary ones."

      My dad just returned an $80,000 Mercedes as a lemon.

    2. Re:Cheap scanners are easy to fool by ash5g · · Score: 1

      Okay, maybe a poor analogy. Still, I would've thought that very cheap car brands would have a LOT more retruns than someone like a Lexus made car (not sure about Mercedes). The point is that toy fingerprint scanners using poor technology are always going to be fallible, wheras well enginerred solutions will be much much harder to crack, which should be obvious. The toy solutions where always going to be easy to crack, that's why they're cheap.

    3. Re:Cheap scanners are easy to fool by Mephie · · Score: 1

      Bingo. The person who moded that troll is an idiot.

    4. Re:Cheap scanners are easy to fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said it.

      The real good fingerprint scanners use ultrasound (not light) to grab your print.

      These types of scanners detect YOUR REAL fingerprint THROUGH a latex glove. So gelatin copies, latex gloves and pictures won't work.

      Also, an exhaustive matching algorithm would definitely increase accuracy, but would take longer and cause security queues to back up.

      The mere fact that a security checkpoint uses a fingerprint scanner would make any terrorist (smart or stupid) choose a different avenue to distribute his terrorism.

      I live the grestest adventure anyone could wish for. - Tosk the Hunted.

  13. Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people thin by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    While it may be true that your fingerprints are unique, even the fingerprint checking systems used by the police produce a lot of false matches. But this is only a minor problem. You can replace this with DNA testing or an iris scan.

    The big problem is that it takes so long for the test to be completed adequately. The only way to speed things up would be to have a single card that has all this data stored on it. this could be read directly by a computer, and processed in considerably less time.

  14. Great minds think alike by VinceWuzHere · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the document abstract... "A description of different liveness detection methods is presented and discussed. Methods requiring extra hardware use temperature, pulse, blood pressure, electric resistance, etc., and methods using already existent information in the system use skin deformation, pores, perspiration, etc."

    1. Re:Great minds think alike by afidel · · Score: 1

      The best system I have seen so far is the U.are.U 4000. This system uses multiple CMOS camera's to construct a 3D image of the ridgelines which is not easily defeated by a gelatin mold (rarely do they build a good 3D map), if they added a camera which was sensitive to IR they could take a temerature or bloodflow measurement and make it basically foolproof. Besides which a 3D gelatin mold is basically impossible to obtain without the subject's knowledge. Also the way we are using the U.Are.U for our client involves a password, the scanner, and a hardware token/encryption system, to defeat this system you would have to record his password, obtain a 3D fingerprint mold, AND steal his hardware token! He is an engineer taking a laptop full of trade secrets with him to the far east and his company is worried about theft of the data.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:Great minds think alike by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 1

      The data is encrypted... right?

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    3. Re:Great minds think alike by afidel · · Score: 1

      correct and the key is stored on the keyfob.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:Great minds think alike by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 1

      That's good. I can't believe these schemes where the only thing the keyfob is used for is to allow access to some unencrypted database file through an application.

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    5. Re:Great minds think alike by bicho · · Score: 1

      then what about X-Rays?
      I would think faking bones and stuff would be harder ^^

      It could even be extended to be a radiography of the whole hand, not know if it would be too problematic/expensive or prohibitive for some other reason though.
      any comments?

      --

      errera hunamum ets
  15. fingerprints at all... by tuxette · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Probably old news to some, but here's an interesting article about how fingerprints are perhaps not infallible, unique ID, with a link to this article

    Who cares about the scanners when the real problem lies in something entirely different?

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  16. A more foolproof method by foidulus · · Score: 2, Funny

    For the Swedish bikkinni team anway, should use other "appendages" to authenticate the message.

    1. Re:A more foolproof method by harborpirate · · Score: 1

      I think I can speak for most of us here in saying that:

      Yes, I'd be more than happy to volunteer to perform that particular authentication.

      I'd like to note that the bikini team also gets an important side effect:
      free breast cancer exams.

      --
      // harborpirate
      // Slashbots off the starboard bow!
  17. Okay. by Red+Dane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just wanted to interject... I suppose it depends on whether you have one that bounces small radio signals off of the inside of your finger or one that simply captures an image. Certain fingerprint readers bounce radio signals off of the inside of your finger and read the underlying tissue structure (no, I'm not going to plug the product here). This prevents people from doing what she did at the trade convention. Fingerprint technology is always improving, and I'm sure that the industry will take this to heart and make these things even more complex. When you get right down to it, the systems aren't as complex as you might think. Most fingerplate templates weigh in from anywhere to 300 - 600 bytes in size.. but that is more to ease hardware requirements. I think they will combine other methods in the fingerprint taking process and eliminate these problems. Just my take on it, tear it apart guys ;)

    1. Re:Okay. by ash5g · · Score: 1

      Yep, alot of scanners now read the bottom layer of skin, to protect against faking, and also against scratches and abrasions/scratches on the upper layers of skin. This also get's rid of most latex and gelatin workarounds.

    2. Re:Okay. by Red+Dane · · Score: 1

      That is certainly true and those readers that do, manage to do a lot of good at fingerprint discrimination. I think she picked out the lowest quality fingerprint readers out there for her tests. Most companies have such rock solid systems that her tests would fail miserably if applied. I wonder how well her tests would stack up against Sony, Blackfin and Fujitsu products.

    3. Re:Okay. by iabervon · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thesis tested one of those at the trade show. You wear the artificial fingertip on your real hand, so it contains normal human tissue and bone structure. In fact, the real issue is that a real finger has a bunch of non-distinctive live matter covered by a layer of distinctive dead matter (your epidermis, with your fingerprints, is dead cells). It's very difficult to detect the difference between dead matter that's supposed to be there and dead matter that's not supposed to be there.

      Obviously, wearing the fake on your real hand is necessary if you want to fool the security guard as well.

  18. Easy fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    A light spray of hydrochloric acid could be used to clean the hands before a scan is performed.

    1. Re:Easy fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like something that you would want to see introduced for iris scanning :)

  19. Lo-tech method by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I believe c't magazine successfully fooled more than 50% of scanners by placing a clear plastic bag, filled with water, on top of the glass. This makes the greasy residue of the genuine user's fingerprint show up clearly to the scanner.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
    1. Re:Lo-tech method by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      looks like they got that one from watching Scooby Doo 2...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
  20. Oily Mess by artlu · · Score: 1

    What about all the oil from fingerprints. Do the replicas have oil as well in order to leave an actual fingerprint on the system or does it just scan the pattern of print like a flatbed scanner?

    GroupShares Inc. - A Free and Interactive Stock Trading Community

    --
    -------
    artlu.net
    1. Re:Oily Mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish this account would get bitchslapped already. Early posts, attempting to be on-topic, and *short*. Short is key for the early post. Redundancy doesn't matter much, you can ask *exactly* what the article answers and expect dumbass mods to bump you up a few points.

      And all just to pimp some shite website.

  21. james bond by joeldg · · Score: 1

    wasn't this same thing done in a james bond movie from the about the early 80's?

    I seem to remember him picking off some fake fingerprints he used to pick up a wineglass with at some womans place (who 'gasp' turned out to be a spy for the 'other' side..)

    1. Re:james bond by dcphoenix · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're right about that. It was in Diamonds Are Forever. Bond was posing as a diamond thief, if I'm remembering correcting, while meeting with the real theif's contact for something. The real theif and the contact had never actually meet face to face before and the only identification she had to verify his identity were his finger prints. So, Q mad a set of fake "press on" prints for Bond.

    2. Re:james bond by joeldg · · Score: 1

      yea.. that is the movie..
      thanks, was sitting here poking around IMDB trying to remember which one that was.

    3. Re:james bond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except it wasn't to prove a fingerprint scanner, rather Tiffany Case looking at a photograph.

    4. Re:james bond by canfirman · · Score: 1
      Also done in "Tomorrow Never Dies". He used a scanner on his phone to get the fingerprint, then placed the face of the phone to the scanner to open the safe.

      Hmmm...I wonder if they've thought of that, too? (If it's even technically feasible.)

      --
      It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
  22. Re:Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people t by kusma · · Score: 1

    The only way to speed things up would be to have a single card that has all this data stored on it. this could be read directly by a computer, and processed in considerably less time.
    And the card should be called Ident-I-Eeze.
  23. The CIA will love this by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If its so easy to falsify fingerprints then they will want more. Say hello to have a DNA sample taken at birth to be used as ID for the rest of your monitored exixtence.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:The CIA will love this by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 1

      bah @ dna sample. it may be unique but i think some skin would be easier to get than a fingerprint.

    2. Re:The CIA will love this by macemoneta · · Score: 2, Informative
      DNA is not unique (maternal twins). Even worse for DNA testing is a Chimera, who carries two unique sets of DNA in different body parts.

      There is not such thing as an absolute proof of identity, only a trust relationship.

      --

      Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

    3. Re:The CIA will love this by AdrainB · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make sense to rely on just one method of identification. If the owner of the fingerprint is a white, 50 year old, 250 lb. bald man, it should raise alarm bells if a 25 year old 180 lb. Arab passes the fingerprint scan.

    4. Re:The CIA will love this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know people who insist that the blood samples to test for PKU at birth is a clever way to disguise this program. Here in Texas, it is mandatory. There is no way to opt out even as a religious objector. So here is the theory of how it works: :Blood Sample gets sent to lab where DNA is stored. :They associate the DNA blood sample with the SSN(given at birth). :If you opt out of a SSN, they get kind of screwed as they dont have a sure unique identifier, that's why they bitch and moan.

      Check this link out for the states screening program:

      https://www.tdh.state.tx.us/newborn/why_new.htm

  24. This doesnt apply to most commercial scanners by ash5g · · Score: 1

    Most fingerprint scanners have the tech. to measure if the substance scanned is real skin or not, based on the surface resistance, so latex copies don't work at all. It's a wonder most of these devices at these trade shows still can't do this. Pretty embarrasing really.

    1. Re:This doesnt apply to most commercial scanners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Have you bothered reading the f'ing article? Or even the f'ing abstract at the top of the posting?

      Sorry I asked, I know this is slashdot.

      The fingerprints are made from gelatin. Jell-O. Not latex. They pass liveness detectors just fine: being made entirely of proteins (just like skin) they pass the capacitance and resistance tests with flying colors. They're thin enough to transmit enough body heat to trigger temperature sensors. They pass IR energy so that pulse detectors are fooled.

      Bottom line: the copies are made from (roughly) formerly living tissue. It's not embarassing. The trust placed in the devices (by companies, salescritters, etc.) is the embarassing part.

  25. Re:Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    thank goodness for that - after all, it's next to impossible to use someone elses card.

    reminds me of one of the h2g2 books in some way . . .

  26. Why am I not surprised... by LoganTeamX · · Score: 0

    People have been fooling fingerprint and ocular scanners for years. It's going to take the next quantum-leap in sensing technology to render artifical fingerprints less effective.

    --
    One of the 187.
    1. Re:Why am I not surprised... by HermanZA · · Score: 4, Funny

      Man, do you realize how small a quantum leap is? It is the closest thing to nothing in the universe...

  27. It's wafer thin... by MojoRilla · · Score: 4, Funny

    From the thesus...

    The main problem with liveness detection methods based on extra hardware, is that the scanners have to be adjusted to operate e±ciently in different kinds of environments, leading to problems when using a wafer-thin artifcial fingerprint glued on to a live finger.

    And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin fingerprint. Oh sir...it's only wafer thin.

  28. Only one foolproof biometric system I can think of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Human-sized gas chromatograph.

    The subject to be scanned would be analyzed in a gas chromatograph. It is highly unlikely that anyone would be able to reliably spoof your spectra. It could even be used to tell if you were on drugs or needed to lose some weight.

  29. Re:Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people t by Enry · · Score: 1

    While it may be true that your fingerprints are unique, even the fingerprint checking systems used by the police produce a lot of false matches. But this is only a minor problem. You can replace this with DNA testing or an iris scan.

    AFIS (Automated Fingerprint ID Systems) are pretty good at matching. Instead of saying "this is the person you're looking for", it gives a weight and gives the top possible matches. It's still up to a human (or humans) to make the final determination that the fingerprint in the database and the one provided by the police is the same.

    In the case of the Oregon lawyer who was thought to be connected to the Madrid bombings, the source image provided to the FBI was of inferior quality. In addition, there are questions that the humans were biased looking at that person's record. In that case, it wasn't the AFIS that failed, it was the human element that failed.

    IIRC, identical twins have the same DNA. So far, no two people have been proven to have the same fingerprints.

  30. another solution.... by Bog+Standard · · Score: 1

    is to use a retina scanning devices instead. After all it is much harder to remove a persons eyeball than it is their finger. No sig required

    1. Re:another solution.... by katsushiro · · Score: 1

      I dunno.. Kill Bill 2 made removing a person's eyeball seem pretty easy.. (I know, I know.. burn, karma, burn!)

      --
      "Two things are infinite: the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first one." - Albert Einstein
    2. Re:another solution.... by the+real+darkskye · · Score: 1

      All you need is a fountain pen to extract and hold the eyeball up to the scanner.

      cite

      Be well Bog Standard

      --
      Music is everybody's possession.
      It's only publishers who think that people own it.
      Fuck Beta
      ~John Lenno
    3. Re:another solution.... by cr0sh · · Score: 1
      I think you mean a "cornea scan" - not a retinal scan.

      Unless things have changed lately (I don't kepp up with this stuff, so I suppose they could have), retinal scanners usually require the user to look into the device, which then uses suction to "suck" the camera against the eyeball and hold it in place (very still) so that the camera can see into the eye and quickly capture an image of the retina for comparison purposes.

      From what I understand, it is a very uncomfortable thing to go through, so you only see them being used in very-high security environments. There is also the issue (with any kind of eye scanner) of risk of infection (pink eye, styes, etc) to multiple users. Both of these issues, together (not to mention high cost for the scanners - though this might have come down) limit the use of the devices to mainly niche markets...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    4. Re:another solution.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One rule of cryptography is that the password cannot be anything valuable. If you user your eye balls as a password, it is only a matter of time before someones eyes are popped out to unlock the secret. Would you like to be the one?

  31. Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by John+Harrison · · Score: 1

    What does liveness detection have to do with the problem of a twin/clone having similar fingerprints? Unless your twin/clone is dead I can't see how it would make a difference.

    1. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by Apocalypse111 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I myself have an identical twin brother, and our fingerprints are nothing alike. Fingerprints are a developmental feature, not a genetic one.

      --
      There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
    2. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by rembem · · Score: 2, Informative

      Twins don't have the same fingerprint. Twins have similar prints because the basic print is determined genetically. However prints can be altered in the amniotic environment. The skin of a fetus is "soft" and "pruny" like you are when you are in the bathtub. Depending on how the fetus is laying or pressed against something the prints can be molded slightly differently in each twin. So they are not identical but similar.

    3. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by John+Harrison · · Score: 1

      I know that they tend to have similar prints, but you haven't answered my question. How does a "liveness" test have anything to do with that? What is he talking about in 4.5.3?

    4. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by John+Harrison · · Score: 1
      It is well know that twins tend to have fingerprints that are similar to one another. The fact that consider your twin's prints to be very different doesn't change this. Similarly your own fingerprints tend to be similiar to each other, having more features in common that they would with a random person's.

      In any case, you have failed to provide any information about why a test for liveness would be be important, unless your twin is dead.

    5. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You've gotten multiple wrong responses to your comment. I thought you were a total idiot until the fifth time I read your comments. Then I finally noticed and understood your subject. You can blame us all for being stupid and not reading closely or you can consider being more clear next time you comment. Your choice.

      As to your question, 4.5.3 seems pretty silly to me. I doubt twins and clones are close enough to fool a scanner. The author doesn't say, but just assumes that a clone is only a cloned finger, not a full live body. Still, by the time we can clone fingers, biometrics will be a lot more advanced too.

    6. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by John+Harrison · · Score: 1
      Thanks for deciding that I am not an idiot. My employeer will be glad to hear that. Sorry if I wasn't clear. My guess is that most people didn't read section 4.5.3 prior to responding.

      Most twins aren't close enough to fool current scanners, but some are. Of course this depends on the scanner and the settings. I have been able to fool some scanners by enrolling with one of my fingers and verifying with another of my fingers.

      In fact, I took a system to my parents house once and my mom was able to verify as me.

      Your explaination about the cloned finger would make sense, but it still doesn't explain the twin situation. Is he assuming that someone is going to find your twin and cut his finger off?

  32. Re:another solution.... (retina scanning) by schatten · · Score: 1

    but what are the changes that can evolve with the retina? deterioration/separation and other abstracts that will change?

  33. even if they did work by Nf1nk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    they may not work for me. I have a chemical burn on three of my fingers on my right hand. It still hasn't healed properly and the scar tissue keeps rearanging itself (small blisters keep forming). My other hobby, wood carving, leaves me with several fresh cuts on my hands and fingers each week, from these I can see changes in my prints.

    --
    I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
    1. Re:even if they did work by ash5g · · Score: 1

      Modern fingerprint scanners should read the bottom layer of skin which also has the the same fingerprint as the top layer. Unless you have third degree burns on both hands or really deep cuts they should read fine.

    2. Re:even if they did work by OxygenPenguin · · Score: 1

      what if you did have third degree burns on one hand? Especially your dominant hand. I received severe burns to both hands and 3rd degree burns to my fingers on my right hand. I am not sure if I have regenerated the same fingerprints that i had before. Are there cracks for these kinds of anomalies?

      --
      Read the only personal Runyon page out there.
    3. Re:even if they did work by ash5g · · Score: 1

      Fingerprints on the bottom layers should be ok (I think you have 7 layers of skin?) but the upper layers will probably never recover sufficiently for surface/visual recognition. Not many people would continue to work while having these types of burns, so it shouldn't be much of a problem. Any type of biometric scans should not be the sole type of verification, so as long as you remember a password/key you should be fine.

    4. Re:even if they did work by Mephie · · Score: 1

      Dude, you gotta learn to be more careful. Damn.

    5. Re:even if they did work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I was speaking to a fingerprint reader salesman a couple of weeks ago. He told me that roughly three percent of the population can't use the typical mass-market (cheap) fingerprint readers. Sugar cane field workers are the worst off - they simply don't work at all for them.

      The FBI-quality readers can read those fingerprints, but at over $1000 a pop, your average business will balk at installing them at every door. It's hard enough to get them to spring $100 for a cheap fingerprint reader.

  34. Oh, come on.... by Mz6 · · Score: 1
    "(no, I'm not going to plug the product here)"

    Plug the product... I would be interested to find out who is doing this type of research and looking up documentation on how it works if possible. Sounds interesting. Post as AC or something :)

    --
    Hmmm.
    1. Re:Oh, come on.... by Red+Dane · · Score: 2, Informative

      Okay, Assuming you are still reading this.. check out the Tensor 4210 sub-dermal reader, there are a lot of other products out there that do the same thing. If it can be found OEM, then it might be worth half a poop. Otherwise you're married :( product marriage + attempted product development = low return/failure. But I'm preaching to the choir here ;)

  35. Re:Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AFIS (Automated Fingerprint ID Systems) are pretty good at matching. Instead of saying "this is the person you're looking for", it gives a weight and gives the top possible matches. It's still up to a human (or humans) to make the final determination that the fingerprint in the database and the one provided by the police is the same.

    That's kinda the problem. It's fine for police investigations, since it's worth the effort of a human poring over the information, but for security, I don't like the idea that someone may have a fingerprint that's a good enough match to get into my car.

  36. I have a problem myself by timts · · Score: 1

    after doing long hours of cleaning at home, one of my finger seems to be "too smooth" after soaked in the chemical water, even I wore gloves, there's still plenty got into it, now I have 1-2 fingers which barely have any fingerprint.

    I am really worried now.

  37. Accidental Discovery by The+Slashdolt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In a former career I spent time mixing cement. One day I was mixing a small amount in a 5 gallon bucket. At the time I had nothing to mix it with so I used my hand. After mixing I washed my hand and it was amazingly smooth. I didn't think much more about it. The next day the skin on my hand was very sore. I looked at it and noticed that the mixing had worn down the top layes of skin on my hand. To the point where I barely had any fingerprints at all. So if you want to remove your fingerprints temporarily in a somewhat painful(but not excruciating) way, just mix up a bucket of concrete with your hand..... Hmmmm, is this a circumvention device?

    --
    mp3's are only for those with bad memories
    1. Re:Accidental Discovery by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I had a similar experience when I worked at a summer job at industrial egg incubator facilities... we had to clean everything with bleach and even with all the protective clothing and gloves, we still all lost the friction ridges on our fingers and hands.

      Fastforward to years later, I have to get a security clearance, and therefore have to get fingerprinted... So I asked the cop about this sort of situation.

      He told me that if they can't let a suspect go until they can ascertain his/her identity. So it's in the suspect's best interest to have printable fingerprints.

      Obviously this cop wasnt very forthcoming with answers for all possible situations, but I would assume that if your prints have to be scanned to open some sort of security mechanism or to obtain access to a secure area, you have to have readable fingerprints, otherwise you're S.O.L.

      (OT side note: at that summer job, I also learned that egg incubator facilities have to employ specially trained Japanese sex differentiators, and that the best ones all come from Japan, with a less than 1% margin of error -- they pick up each chick, and look at its ass, then put it on the male or female conveyor belt. Don't ask me what they look for to make the difference between males and females, they never told me.)

    2. Re:Accidental Discovery by Reo+Strong · · Score: 1

      I used to work with my Father (a mason) and when the brick or block (neither bricks nor blocks is a word) were wet, he often had no printable fingerprints at the end of the day. He found out that this 'could' be mis-construed as a "circumvention device" when he was talking with the local cheif of police. As a test of it's effectivness, they tried to fingerprint him, with only black smudges to show for it.

      OT a bit, but the reason that your had was sore, was more likely because you absorbed some of the cement or lye (if you were actauly mixing mortar instead) into your skin which can cause a chemical burn that is fairly irritating and can be lethal if too much gets into your bloodstream.

      --
      "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -Anon.
    3. Re:Accidental Discovery by Willis+Wasabi · · Score: 1

      According to http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Diction ary&va=brick, bricks is so a word. The plural of brick is bricks or brick. Wouldn't the first ("bricks") even be the preferred plural?

      --
      All true wisdom can be found in sigs.
    4. Re:Accidental Discovery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bricks

      http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=blocks

      Similar entries for bricks and blocks on m-w.com:

      Main Entry: 1brick
      Pronunciation: 'brik
      Function: noun
      Usage: often attributive
      Etymology: Middle English bryke, from Middle French brique, from Middle Dutch bricke
      1 plural bricks or brick : a handy-sized unit of building or paving material typically being rectangular and about 2 1/4 x 3 3/4 x 8 inches (57 x 95 x 203 millimeters) and of moist clay hardened by heat

      Not entirely certain where you get the idea that they're not words.. Have a nice day.

    5. Re:Accidental Discovery by Willis+Wasabi · · Score: 1
      --
      All true wisdom can be found in sigs.
    6. Re:Accidental Discovery by Trifthen · · Score: 1

      Naw, just do what the guy in the movie "7" did: cut them off with a knife for temporary anonymity. ^_^

      --
      Read: Rabbit Rue - Free serial nove
    7. Re:Accidental Discovery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For one who claims certain extant words do not in fact exist, your grasp of the apostrophe could sure use some work.

    8. Re:Accidental Discovery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't ask me what they look for to make the difference between males and females, they never told me

      ?!?

      Oh, right, this is Slashdot.

      Don't worry, your dad will explain all that sort of thing once you grow up.

      Not that you'll ever actually need that knowledge.

  38. Re:Fingerprint scanners aren't as good as people t by fatgeekuk · · Score: 1

    No, No, NO, NO, *NO*...

    NEVER EVER have data used for authentication physically ON the security token...

    The black hats just write their own details to a card and have done with it.

    You should only have an identifier on the card that is used only for keying a record from a (supposedly) secure database.

    This identifier should be used nowhere else, so as to limit the data exposed if a card falls into the wrong hands.

  39. Fact is... by csirac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... defeating fingerprint scans is a lot harder than stealing a PIN.

    1. Re:Fact is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you rtfa it seems to say that stealing a pin is a lot easer than defeating a finger print scan...

      not to mention seeing an article on slashdot how a clear plastic bag filled with water will defeat almost 50% of fingerprint scanner

    2. Re:Fact is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oops...meant to say stealing a pin is harder

    3. Re:Fact is... by Macka · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I think that's rubbish. If I want to steal your fingerprint then I don't have to actually take something from you at all. I could just follow you around and watch what you touch or pick up, and then go back a take my sample a long time after you're gone. Hell I could even visit your car or front house door late at night.

      Stealing a PIN is way way harder and requires considerable more effort and resources than that.

    4. Re:Fact is... by csirac · · Score: 1

      Stealing a PIN is way way harder and requires considerable more effort and resources than that.

      Stealing a PIN can way harder.

      But I think it depends on the policies in place.

      Sure, DES keys for bank ATMs are going to be a lot harder to steal (erm, generate) than a technician's fingerprint.

      In high-level security applications a combination of a PIN entry, identification and other security protocols is going to be harder to defeat then mere fingerprint ID by itself.

      However, I've worked at places where the site's security system PIN is shared for all staff, and rarely ever changes (6 months or more).

      In these cases a PIN is very vurnerable to being obtained via social engineering (disgruntled ex-employees?) or just plain observation.

      I think the best combination would be some sort of physical key and PIN. Some sites I've seen have two normal locks (overnight lockup) via old fashioned lock 'n key, PIN (disarm security system), and RFID swipe cards (after-hours access for employees).

    5. Re:Fact is... by Macka · · Score: 1

      However, I've worked at places where the site's security system PIN is shared for all staff, and rarely ever changes (6 months or more).
      That's not really a "security system" though is it. That's just paying lip service to the concept of Security so that someone can tick a box on a list somewhere. The weakest part of any security system is always the human element, especially when the people involved don't have a clue, or don't care, or both.
  40. They'll stay to raise the threshold... by MyNameIsFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is an old saying that is attributed to the Secret Service. They can't stop someone really dedicated from killing the President. All they can do is raise the level of difficulty so high that the average individual won't be able to do it. I think that is applicable to the fingerprint scanners used in American airports. Yes, they can be beat, but they raise the threshold. They won't catch the dedicated/educated terrorists, but it will help against idiots. And stopping idiot terrorists is still a good idea. And don't fool yourselves, a lot of terrorists are idiots. Just look at the Shoe Bomber, not what I would call England's best and brightest.

    1. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by rcamans · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey - maybe the shoe bomber was England's best and brightest!

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    2. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, but most idiots don't care about finger print scanning. It's not like there's a list of every idiot stupid enough to try to be a terrorist.

    3. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All they can do is raise the level of difficulty so high that the average individual won't be able to do it.

      I would describe John Hinckley, as average at best, and he stepped forward from a crowd of television reporters and fired six shots hitting the President (Reagan) and others.

    4. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by armb · · Score: 1

      I know Bush is doing a bad job, but I didn't think it had reached the point where an average individual was going to try killing him.

      --
      rant
    5. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by emptor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually the saying goes something like "They can't stop someone who is committed enough to sacrifice their own life from killing the President."

    6. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by emptor · · Score: 1

      But Hinckley didn't kill the President, now did he? :)

    7. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by AviLazar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is another saying (more or less), if you are willing to go to the extreme to accomplish something (extreme being killed, caught, etc) then you have a much greater chance of doing it.
      Yea he shot the President - when the President was in lower security then normal (walking to his car surrounded by about 8 people is barely any security, especially when a ton of people are surrounding them). But what happend to him? Did he sneak away? Nope - he got busted. Now try and shoot the president AND slink away, that becomes much harder.
      Having security, even that which can be circumvented by SOME, is better then not having any security at all. To leave the doors wide open because a few can get passed the locked doors is foolish to say the least.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    8. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by Patik · · Score: 2, Funny
      John Hinckley ... stepped forward from a crowd of television reporters and fired six shots hitting the President (Reagan) and others.
      Are you sure this really happened? Later on, Reagan couldn't remember the incident happening.
    9. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      All they can do is raise the level of difficulty so high that the average individual won't be able to do it.

      No, all they can do is raise the bar so high you have to be willing to die in order to accomplish your goal. I would point out, in case you've missed it, that dying doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent to your average fanatic.

      This is why we call them 'fanatics'.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    10. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by dangerburger · · Score: 1

      yea, but if people have a false sense of security and trust that all the people who have been fingerprinted are who they say they are it will make it easier for the dedicated terrorist to pass through other safeguards. Keeping the insecurity of fingerprint scanners a secret will only serve to hurt this country in the long run.

      --
      Non-System foot or foot error. remove from mouth and strike any key when ready
    11. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by oliphaunt · · Score: 1

      I would describe John Hinckley, as average at best

      yeah, but he didn't acutally KILL Reagan, did he? :-P

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    12. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by 56 · · Score: 1
      Good thing that the people we're up against in this 'war on terror' aren't willing to sacrifice their lives in order to achieve their goal.

      Oh wait...

    13. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know this is slashdot, but that was cold.

    14. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about this?:

      Remembering Reagan

  41. Non-US student by AragornSonOfArathorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good thing this was written by a student who is NOT a US citizen or she would probably be prosecuted under the DMCA.

    --
    sudo eat my shorts
    1. Re:Non-US student by Dovregubbens+Hall · · Score: 1

      Too bad she can't ever go to the US again. She'll be arrested under the DMCA immediately. Probably Patriot Act too. It'll be Guantanamo for her...

  42. DSD uses.... by digitalchinky · · Score: 1

    At one or two of the DSD's field sites, they use hand scanners - pretty cool to watch at night - laser light show - in combination with a 4 digit pin number. Amusingly, the pin numbers are not secret, (printed on ID cards), and yes, using your hand with someone elses code 'frequently' works just fine.

    I'm not certain about eye scanners, though the current generation of fingerprint scanners will not be used, ever. Article says it all.

    Digital safe keypads, they are everywhere, just look for the same 4 digits worn away from frequent useage, guess code combination accordingly :-)

  43. Slashdot How-to.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DIY fingerprint copies were used (detailed how-to in the thesis).

    Instructions:

    1) Find person who has legitimate access and follow him into the parking lot.

    2) Club person over the head and cut off his finger.

    3) Place severed finger on photocopier and make a copy.

    4) Place photocopy of severed finger on fingerprint scanner - access granted!

    1. Re:Slashdot How-to.. by WormholeFiend · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why would you want to photocopy the fingerprint of the severed finger when you can just place the severed finger on the fingerprint scanner?

  44. gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can also tell if you ate a big mean bean burrito for lunch.

  45. DNA authentication? by Egekrusher2K · · Score: 1

    I wonder.. would it be more secure to authenticate using a DNS sample, such as a simple finger scraping mechanism that will take a sample from your first layer of skin without actually harming you or causing discomfort? Granted, standard computers would have to be much, much faster ( on the order of 50x faster) to process this data in real time, but is it feasible?

    --
    Listen to my experimental-industrial-techno!
    1. Re:DNA authentication? by Egekrusher2K · · Score: 1

      Doh... yeah.. umm.. I meant DNA sample. Nobody cares about your domain name servers.

      --
      Listen to my experimental-industrial-techno!
    2. Re:DNA authentication? by Lennie · · Score: 1

      Our customers might. :-)

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
  46. Gum by IceFox · · Score: 1
    Rather than making expensive gelatin molds just use a stick of gum. They retain the ridges and hold moisture (if the device requires electrical conduction).

    -Benjamin Meyer

    --
    Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
  47. I've got a good one... by bigattichouse · · Score: 1

    I have the most advanced fingerprint verification system to date. Of course you sacrifice speed for acuracy.. and you have to pay a "subscription" of $15/hour or more.. You take an old guy with a magnefying glass, a scrubbrush, soap , a flipboard (with face/thumb/Barcode),a and barcode reader and you tell him he won't get paid if he doesn't look and verify and log EVERY person that comes through (verified against a card swipe lock)... and he sits in a chair behind floor-to-ceiling bulletproof glass... Subjects put their hand through a hole in the window, where he can scrub the thumb prior to checking. Drawbacks? Plenty! Sure, plenty... but I guaruntee none of the exploits in the article would work.

    --
    meh
  48. Re:Only one foolproof biometric system I can think by meringuoid · · Score: 1
    I can just see it now...

    According to the gas chromatograph, the secret ingredient is... love? Hey, who's been screwing with this thing?

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  49. Story by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I wrote a SF story in college where there were fingerprint scanners that also looked at the skin oils and other biometrics. The protagonist had to use an elaborate device to fake a finger print. If I recall, it was a micro-pingrid array with synthetic skin on the tops of the pins, and little cannister of actual skin oil and other stuff. You could program the pins to be anyone's fingerprint, and the bio-goos would be mixed to the appropriate levels. Of course, it worked perfectly.

    Just thought I'd mention it. :) The story also had "heavy water fusion batteries" 4 years before the world learned the term "cold fusion". This was back in 1985 before my creativty was destroyed by life and career and reality television.

    --
    --- Ban humanity.
  50. MacGyver by norminator · · Score: 0

    I saw MacGyver beat a fingerprint scanner once, a long, long time ago. I wonder if he has a Master's degree?

  51. I'd tried silly-putty by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 1

    I attempted to demonstrate this problem for a client who was interested in a finger print scanner for a specific purpose. I used silly putty with limited success.

    --
    Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
  52. Liveness detection by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 3, Funny

    The main problem with liveness detection methods based on extra hardware, is that the scanners have to be adjusted to operate efficiently in different kinds of environments...

    "So why does it have a rectal probe?"

    "That's just part of the design."

    --
    Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
  53. How about incorporating pulse oximetry by beesquee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Incorporating pulse oximeters (those little things with the red light they put on you fingers while in the hospital) could make it harder to use Jell-o fingers. They verify it is a real finger by sensing blood oxygen and pulse and then the scanner would verify the identity. They are also cheap and realiable Just a thought.

    --
    Things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise
    1. Re:How about incorporating pulse oximetry by Trifthen · · Score: 1

      Nope. Make a thin-layer dummy fingerprint, wear it over your own finger. Pulse and body-head supplied by your body, fingerprint supplied by someone else.

      Ever put Elmers glue on your hand and peel it off to make fake "skin" ? Fake fingerprints can be made just as thin.

      --
      Read: Rabbit Rue - Free serial nove
  54. Thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  55. calcium hydroxide burns by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Informative
    In a former career I spent time mixing cement. One day I was mixing a small amount in a 5 gallon bucket. At the time I had nothing to mix it with so I used my hand. After mixing I washed my hand and it was amazingly smooth. I didn't think much more about it. I looked at it and noticed that the mixing had worn down the top layes of skin on my hand.

    Uh, that's because calcium hydroxide -burned- it off, not "wore it down". It's actually quite common, because there is a delay between exposure and reaction. Well, that and people think "hey, it's just rocks and dirt and stuff, i don't have to wear gloves..."

    1. Re:calcium hydroxide burns by geoffspear · · Score: 2

      Which is odd, because every bag of concrete mix I've ever seen has very clear warnings printed on it telling you that when mixed with water, this product will burn your skin. I realize you can print warnings on products as clearly as you want and people won't read them, but you'd think people with a career in mixing cement would realize this.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    2. Re:calcium hydroxide burns by The+Slashdolt · · Score: 1

      My career wasn't mixing concrete, it was plumbing. I had to mix quite a bit of concrete to repair floors after laying sewers. I didn't read the bags of concrete, but even if I did, it couldn't be as bad working in sewers filled with crap and drano all day. I would have ignored it anyway.

      --
      mp3's are only for those with bad memories
  56. Not conclusive... by DarthBart04 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Has anyone read the actual report?

    In order to get the latent prints (from which the 'fake' prints are created), the experimenters had their subjects wipe their finger on their nose (to make the latent prints easier to capture), had them press their finger on a glass platen, and even checked if their fingers had scars (if so, they chose another, better finger).

    With this kind of cooperation and preparation, no wonder they beat the systems. As anyone knows, once you have someone on the inside you can break any security system.

    In the real world, latent prints are blurred, not defined; smudged, not clean; and might not even be the finger the user has enrolled in the fingerprint device itself. Fingers don't come with labels like 'index' or 'thumb'.

    Again, if the experimenters retrieved their samples from a dirty beer glass in a smoky bar I'd be more concerned, but...they didn't. The world of the lab is a lot different from the real world.

    Let's take these reports in context, fellow Slashdotters.

    In any case, I say we argue for fingerprint devices that protect fingerprint templates by matching and storing them on-board a device that you carry with you as another reply mentioned, where the fingerprint templates are encrypted or protected.

    1. Re:Not conclusive... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think about it. This was an experiment carried out by a student with basically no money to spend on the equipment and techniques.

      They wanted a good initial fingerprint because of the quite poor techniques they were using to lift it. If they had invested more time and money and used more modern and sensitive techniques (still not rocket science) such as cyanoacrylate fumes they wouldn't have needed the pristine initial print.

      Same comments apply to the photo-enhancement and etching processes.

      In reality, for someone with enough motivation, two or three partial and smudged fingerprints will be enough.

    2. Re:Not conclusive... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1
      In order to get the latent prints (from which the 'fake' prints are created), the experimenters had their subjects wipe their finger on their nose (to make the latent prints easier to capture), had them press their finger on a glass platen, and even checked if their fingers had scars (if so, they chose another, better finger).

      On the other hand this was one person doing a master's thesis. The bad guys are likely to be far more persistent and have better resources.

  57. Haven't they ever watched Mission Impossible ? by nomad63 · · Score: 1

    Spoofing fingerprints was one of my early childhood memories, watching Mission Impossible. And unless you are visually watching the spoofer, making sure he/she is not wearing any layer of artificial skin on the fingers, there is no guarantee that a fingerprint actually belongs to the person whose fingerprints are being scanned.

    --

    __________
    The more I know people, the more I love animals
  58. Not everyone who doesn't join the military... by NarrMaster · · Score: 0

    ..is chicken shit. I'm not accepted due to health issues. Marines told me that 3 years ago. So fuck you, "AC".

    --
    That's right. All your base.
  59. Yay, biometrics by Bozdune · · Score: 1

    Circa 1985 there was a big push by a handwriting biometrics company in the UK. They claimed to be able to reduce a signature to a few hundred bytes that could be stored on a (then state-of-the-art) smart card.

    Their "big insight" was to measure not only the relative shapes etc. of the signature, but also the speed with which each part of it was written. This was claimed to deliver really super terrific results.

    We set up their system and ran some testing. Results were random. If you made it sensitive enough to seem secure, you had to sign about 50 times before you "got it right."

    Obviously this technology didn't go anywhere, because nobody is flogging biometric signature scanning anymore (at least as far as I know).

    The article, plus my experience, makes me wonder how much testing these guys do before they set the Marketing Drone Exaggeration Bit "on". Hell, what am I saying, I already know the answer. Not much.

    1. Re:Yay, biometrics by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Of course, part of the reason for the recent fuss over the validity of fingerprint identification was the revelation that, historically, it seems that all the "evidence" has come from the companies that market fingerprinting equipment. There apparently never has been anything remotely resembling a scientific study of the accuracy of fingerprinting.

      One funny thing I keep noticing in the fuss is the repeated insistence of the uniqueness of fingerprints. It's not just that this has never been verified. The zinger here is that, if you pick up just about any book on the specifics of fingerprinting, they'll usually start right off giving examples of fingerprints that are either (a) indistinguishable, or (b) widely duplicated in the population. These are really two ways of saying the same thing, of course. (The prints in question are primarily those that lack "points"; i.e., they have no intersections of lines.)

      So the fingerprint textbook writers know of lots of duplicate/indistinguishable fingerprints, while the PR people keep trying to reassure us keep insisting that all fingerprints are unique.

      Gives one a lot of confidence, doesn't it?

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    2. Re:Yay, biometrics by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Paul Simon had something to say about that...

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  60. Huh? by blunte · · Score: 2, Funny

    I didn't really understand anything you said, but I see you managed to mention testicles in a /. post, and that was cool...

    [cue Butthead laugh]

    --
    .sigs are for post^Hers.
  61. After that... by blunte · · Score: 1
    Sure, I can use one of the other nine, then once they're compromised, use my toes, after that...?


    Why, live DNA sample, of course. Acquired, analyzed, and compared while you wait. :P
    --
    .sigs are for post^Hers.
  62. This would't have happened by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This would't have happened if they used fingerprints. :)

  63. What's the big deal by icejai · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Fingerprint scanners are exactly that.

    Finger. Print. Scanners.

    They're not "Absolute Identity Verifiers", or "Identity Truth Machines".

    They are simply tools to be used with other forms and methods of identification. Are *all* fingerprinting validation systems supposed to include "temperature, pulse, blood pressure, electric resistance, etc"? Only if some company were relying on fingerprints ALONE to verify someone's identity. But NO company would rely on fingerprints alone. Also, it would make the machine MUCH too costly for anybody to buy.

    The bottom line is, yeah sure, fingerprint scanners can't tell the difference between a human finger and a gelatin one. But if a fingerprint is *all* that it takes to get access to something, then the institution has problems that dig far deeper than the inadequacies of any fingerprint scanner.

  64. Come On, Be Honest! by blunte · · Score: 1

    Who really RTFA in its entirety?

    Hell I really doubt education reviewers of theses actually read them all. Given the number of masters and PhD theses generated each year at some institutions, there's no way they are all read and reviewed with any significant focus.

    Join the Movement! Shorter Theses For All! ...if you can't say it in 30 pages, why bother... :P

    --
    .sigs are for post^Hers.
  65. Al, why haven't I leaped yet? by NarrMaster · · Score: 0

    "Ziggy doesn't know!"
    "Oh boy..."

    --
    That's right. All your base.
  66. Another Fact! by blunte · · Score: 1


    80% of all statistics are made up.

    --
    .sigs are for post^Hers.
  67. Congratulations.... by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    ...you just presented a *mirror image* of a finger print to the scanner.

    Don't know if this will make a difference of not - but I suspect it might.

    It would suck to have your finger lopped off - but even worse so to have it lopped off by an idiot.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    1. Re:Congratulations.... by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      Since when are photocopies mirror images? When you photocopy a piece of paper, does the copy come out backwards?

      The concept still wouldn't work, but not because the print would be backwards.

      bkr

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    2. Re:Congratulations.... by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      Now flip the paper over and lay it on the screen....

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  68. RE: stage makeup, fake finger by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Certainly possible... but someone good at stage makeup could also alter someone's face as a disguise and trick most people searching for a specific, wanted, individual, as that individual walked right past security and onto a plane.

    I think the point of these security measures is just to increase the level of difficulty, not to eliminate all risk....

    IMHO, a fingerprint scanner works well enough as a basically useful screening device. Sure, it can be fooled, like most people or devices... but it's like your door locks at home. Won't stop a professional with lockpicks, but serves the general purpose.

  69. picture of marie and her fingers by bellaroma · · Score: 1
  70. life imitating art by slartibart · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I swear, the only reason people keep pushing for fingerprint ID machines is because they saw them in movies and thought they looked cool.

    Imagine if the keyring that you currently keep in your pocket, kept leaving copies of itself on every object you touch. Imagine anyone who found a copy (with a little work) could drive your car away or freely spend your money or walk right in the front door of your locked house. Now imagine that the worst has happened, that someone has stolen a copy of your keys. Currently, it's rather inconvenient, you must create new keys (and sometimes, locks). Now tell me, how do you change your keys when the key is your right thumb? You can't. Once your key is stolen, you're totally screwed, forever.

  71. It's even easier than that. by pclminion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Forget making crude copies of authorized fingerprints... It's even easier than that.

    A friend of mine in the office has some sort of skin condition which causes his hands to produce very acidic sweat. It's acidic enough to buff the leather on his steering wheel and gear shifter. His fingers will erase the letters off the keys on some keyboards (I assume some keyboards use better quality ink that is more resistant). Coffee mugs with cheap paint on them suffer the same fate on the handles.

    This person can open any fingerprint-protected laptop in the office (we bought a bunch of these from some company who was beta-testing them, they are now out of production) and make it boot. He just smears his fingertip onto the sensor and wiggles it a little bit, and the machine accepts it as an authorized print.

    These fingerprint detectors are of the capacitance-coupling variety. I don't know if the same trick works with the other fingerprint sensor technologies.

    1. Re:It's even easier than that. by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      Ok, so you only have to get that acidic skin condition. Sounds easy enough.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    2. Re:It's even easier than that. by cr0sh · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a little vinegar?

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  72. It's about the economy by CaptainFrito · · Score: 0
    Homeland Security, "War On [terrorism/poverty/drugs/you-name-it](tm)", etc., are always about the economy (and political control, which is ensured and stabilised by a productive economy).

    It is a commonly held belief that inflation is a general rising in prices, and deflation is the opposite. This is just plain wrong: inflation is an increase in the overall money supply and deflation is the opposite. Rising and falling prices are the end-effects of inflation and deflation. It is generally agreed that inflation and deflation are destructive to the long-term economy, but that is the wrong way to look at it. If you know that money supply is increasing or decreasing and you are first in line at the trough you will profit superamazingly. If you are at the back end, you simply get to eat the vomit of those who gorged and hurled before you.

    These 'security initiatives' and whatnot are created to absorb front-end inflation and vice versa. "Trickle-down" is a fool's game. Central Banks ostensibly exist to prevent inlation, but it is quite obvious from the evidence that the exact opposite is true. More proof that those on the inside are the ones that benefit from inflation: the masses are told the opposite. When prices rise, inflation is attacked, but it's already too late. Same with deflation and press reports of impending deflation: this is the best evidence that the money supply is about to increase and that there will be a host of new government initiatives to fight it (absorb the new money before prices rise becuase of its introduction). "Let them eat cake," she said. And money is not created by printing it -- not in any meaningful amount, not any more -- it is created through credit (debt).

    Thus, these silly 'initiatives' will not go away until all the money created (inflation) has been absorbed by those that understand this and profit from it. Until such time as the economy demands new ones...

  73. just another argument against cheap stuff by rozz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    this thesis is only a better documented, nicely written replay of a japanese experiment from some years ago :
    the matsumoto experiment

    and it surely doesnt mean the biometrics are not secure!

    a complete biometrics based security solution has 3 "components" :

    Something you know: e.g. a password or a PIN.

    Something you hold: e.g. a credit card, a key, or a passport.

    Something you are (biometrics): e.g. a fingerprint, iris pattern, etc.

    their demonstration only fooled the 3-rd component of such a system ... which means they got NOTHING! ... plus, the most secure fingerprint scanners read the biometric info from under the epidermis(the outer "dead" skin) and are not so easily fooled with an artificial finger or fingertip ... the fact that they tested cheap of-the-shelf hardware is not exactly concludent.
    The whole study is just an argument against bad hardware and sloppy security systems, not against the usage of the biometrics .. while unfailible security does not exist, biometrics can make a big difference when used right!

    --
    "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
    1. Re:just another argument against cheap stuff by slartibart · · Score: 1
      Ok, fine. "a complete biometrics based security solution" can be secure.

      It's only the biometrics part that's insecure.

      Once someone has stolen your biometrics identity once, he can do it for life. You can't change your "password" when its your eyeball or hand.

    2. Re:just another argument against cheap stuff by rozz · · Score: 1

      could you please read my post again? .. thx

      --
      "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
  74. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    9-11 will never happen again. the world is ready for them now.

  75. Princess Bride? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    ....or Donald Rumsfeld?

  76. Is it possible to fool iPaq fingerprint scanner?? by rwrife · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wonder if her techniques would fool the fingerprint scanner on the high-end iPaq PPCs?? It's not the type you press your finger on, you have to roll your finger over a narrow scanner...so the "gelatin" technique doesn't seem like it would be as effective on the rolling sytems because you'd be stretching/skewing the gelettin imprint....just a thought.

  77. good news for some by dangerburger · · Score: 1

    The folks who make the hand scaners that read the patterns of your blood vessels under you skin are probably pretty happy about this. I havent ever read about someone fooling those hand scanners.

    --
    Non-System foot or foot error. remove from mouth and strike any key when ready
  78. And this is news why? by Terragen · · Score: 1

    So she took a copy of a fingerprint and a device which reads fingerprints said it looks the same as the original?

    What's next? A slashdot story about how linux is insecure because as long as you know the root password linux will still authenticate you?

    Oh no!! LINUX SECURITY FOOLED!!

    1. Re:And this is news why? by blueforce · · Score: 1

      No.

      We can all agree that possessing the knowledge of the root password would grant access to the machine - it's obtaining that password that makes gaining access to the machine difficult.

      The correct analogy would be having the root password written on a post-it notes hanging on your monitor, your coffee cup, doors all over the office, etc.

      The point here is that obtaining a copy of someone's fingerprint is easily accomplished which makes deceiving the devices even easier than brute-forcing a 10-digit alpha-numeric password.

      --
      If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
    2. Re:And this is news why? by Terragen · · Score: 1

      You actually proved my point - thanks.

      If you had the root password lying around on post-it notes - would anyone say it was linux's sexurity flaw? No.

      Its the same issue here. The fingerprint scanner works exactly as its supposed to. It recognizes fingerprints. The fact that people live fingerprints all over the place is not a design flaw of the readers - they are only going their job - it is a flaw of the concept of fingerprint security. I'm not sure why this is news. Doesn't EVERYONE know that they leave fingerprints lying around? If you make a copy of a fingerprint how is a scanner supposed to know if its real or not? It just does what it was designed to do - recognize the prints. Now if you could fool these things with the wrong prints (say it auths you when you are not supposed to be authed) THEN it is a flaw with the scanners.

  79. Quite off-topic I would imagine by valkraider · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    9-11 = -2

    Of course 9/11 happens once every year, usually in September in the USA but in most of the world it can happen in November.

    This, in my opinion, is why "9/11" is a terrible name for what happened. (Oh, yeah, and since I am ranting here - it is NOT, I repeat - NOT Nine-One-One. It is Nine-Eleven. They *are* different).

    Of course if you are referring to the terrorist attacks on Septemeber 11, 2001 - then I agree. The same style of terrorist attacks will never happen again. They can't. Not because of the TSA (Thousands Standing Around) or even any "biometric" scanners at airports (see, I am kinda on-topic?). But because they exposed their hand, we know their "poker face" for that one. Nope - the next one (and there WILL be a next one) will be entirely different - and just as unexpected.

    The only way to win the war on Terrorism is to get people to stop hating us, to get people not WANTING to terrorize us.

    Otherwise - either people die, or we become a police state. Neither one is appealing to me.

  80. Flight 93 Crash by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    The only reason that 9/11 went as badly as it did was that the other passengers assumed that if they just obeyed the terrorists for a few hours, they could put it all behind them and get on with their lives. When the passengers in the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania realized this was not the case, they stopped the terrorists.

    There are allegations -- maybe be paranoid fantasy, I don't know -- but allegations, anyway, that the US Air Force shot down that Pennsylvania plane. Example:

    "I heard like a boom and the engine sounded funny," [an eyewitness] told the [Philadelphia] Daily News. "I heard two more booms - and then I did not hear anything ... I think the plane was shot down."
    - Source

    -kgj

    --
    -kgj
  81. Made Me Laugh! by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Now, a clever man would not use a plane, because he would know that only a great fool would repeat the same method. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose to attack with a plane. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly have to attack with a plane.

    Made me laugh!

    BEST PARODY EVER on SlashDot!

    -kgj

    --
    -kgj
  82. Obligitory "I, for one, ..." by egriebel · · Score: 0, Troll
    ...welcome our new Republican overlords!

    ...welcome our new Waffle House overlords!

    ...welcome our new non-security overlords!

    ...welcome our new fingerprinted overlords!

    ...welcome our new useless security-weilding overlords!

    ...welcome our new civil liberty-forsaking overlords!

    ...welcome our new knee-jerk overlords!

    --
    ACHTUNG! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen.
  83. Re: stage makeup, fake finger by arth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IMHO, a fingerprint scanner works well enough as a basically useful screening device. Sure, it can be fooled, like most people or devices... but it's like your door locks at home. Won't stop a professional with lockpicks, but serves the general purpose.


    There's a big difference. If someone compromises your lock, you can change it.
    If someone compromises your finger, you can't chop it off and grow a new one. Your method of authentication is screwed for the rest of your life.

    --
    *Art
  84. Nmap? by shish · · Score: 1

    When I read the title, I thought it was a dupe on the OS fingerprinting article, where someone got nmap to think that a linux box was a dreamcast :/

    --
    I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  85. what about under the prints? by neuraloverload · · Score: 1

    the thing that strikes me about this is that most replica finger prints are made with a gel based alternative. if we all remember from camp, shining a flashlight through our fingers illuminated other features, such as capillary distribution in the tips, or subsurface scar tissue. all of which are likely to decrease the ability to spoof, but require more resources than 2d print scanning techniques.

  86. Re: stage makeup, fake finger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but someone good at stage makeup could also alter someone's face as a disguise and trick most people searching for a specific, wanted, individual

    You're right. And it would be even better if they could imitate their voice. They could fool anyone.

    Especially if there were a hot babe around to distract them.

    Then, if we had a real electronics hacker to help make useful gadgets like bugs and homing beacons to plant on them, or a device to remotely divert phone calls, we could wreak all sorts of havoc.

    Oh, better throw in some muscle, just in case. And you might have to carry the electronics guy hidden in a box a lot.

    What a plan, huh? And with a mastermind like me to lead them, success is assured.

    Just wait 'til I narrate my biography.

  87. Not to worry ... by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Informative

    when the National Guard were deployed to the
    USA's airports, they were never issued ammo.
    The worst they could have done is install their
    bayonet (for crowd control purposes(?)).

    It was strictly a Bush PR move. And 2-1/2 yrs
    later, the situation regarding the "war on
    terrorism" hasn't evolved much. The USA still
    has unguarded borders and seaports. Both
    illegal immigration and the rate of identity
    theft are both higher now than before 9/11/01.

    It sure isn't any comfort that fingerprint
    scanners are so ineffective, just as have
    iris scanners also proven to be. What's
    next? Maybe implanted RFID chips?

    1. Re:Not to worry ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's
      next? Maybe implanted RFID chips?


      I really, seriously believe that my generation (college undergraduate/graduate young adults) will live to see exactly that - implanted RFID chips. I mean, 60 years ago, would anybody have accepted our current use of Social Security numbers as defacto national IDs? Would the idea have been popular that people should not carry guns on their person for self-defense? (on guns, perhaps, but it wasn't nearly as popular then as it is today) Did anyone besides George Orwell really envision a future in which individuals could be tracked like rats in a lab?

      The answer to those questions, generally, is no. And yet, they are all infringments of personal liberty and personal privacy.

      When the U.S. government mandates all citizens get "chipped," it will be exactly that point at which I don my official "right-wing wacko and civil liberties nut" hat and pack my bags and either move to another country or hole up in a shack with the next Ted Kazcynski or Montana Militia.

      Nobody - *nobody* - violates my right to physical privacy without my permission. Not my parents, not my friends, not my employer, and certainly not any part of our government.

      I absolutely will refuse being chipped - violently if necessary.

  88. It's Not Only What You Are by eidola · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any reasonable authentication system will require more than one factor, only if you have someone's ID card and passphrase would this work in a 2 or 3 factor scenario. Maybe a concern for Lexus but not for most access control systems. In the world of biometrics its a trade off, throughput, accuracy and price for customer acceptance. Fingerprint is easy to use and inexpensive.