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Will LOTR:ROTK Extended Edition Hit Cinemas?
yootje writes "Two articles today on TheOneRing.net about rumours that the extended edition from The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King will come in theaters before the release on DVD. The first article can be found here, the second one here. Both come from people who work in a cinema themselves, one in the UK and one in Denmark."
As long as there's money to be had, you bet they'll do it.
For those not familiar with the story...
Q: Is LoTR really based on Christian Mythology?A: Yes. Tolkien wanted to demonstrate that even the mentally and physically challenged were capable of success and that therefore we should love everyone, regardless of their defects.
Q: So who represents the mentally and physically challenged?
A: Well obviously the hobbits are the physically challenged ones here, but the central mentally challenged figure is Gandalf, responsible for the most horrible attack plan in literature.
Q: What's so horrible about a poorly armed team of two hobbits infiltrating Mordor?
A: Well, basically it ignores the fundamental strengths of the forces of light. Anyone who's played C&C or Warcraft knows that if you have an advantage in air units, you have to use it. Remember that elves can ride eagles, and that elven archers are incredibly potent - early on, Gimli dismounts a Nazgul with a single shot! With about a thousand eagles (given elven archers on each one), the forces of good would have matched up pretty well in the air against Mordor's air units: all nine of them. While the leader of the Nazgul cannot be killed by any living man, this does not prevent a team of twenty eagles from tearing him to little shreds, especially if Gandalf rode along for help. So basically an air battle would have been brief unmitigated slaughter of the Nazgul as about a thousand eagle-mounted elves blew them out of the sky in a hail of arrows.
Q: But I thought that there was some other book that said that the eagles wouldn't help?
A: We're not talking about some other stupid book here, we're talking about the Lord of the Rings. And in this book, the eagles most definitely help out, first by flying Gandalf off the tower and secondly by pitching into the Final Battle in full force, attacking ground units (stupid!) at great risk to themselves. So obviously they would have been content to take part in a brief airborne slaughter of the Nazgul.
Q: Ok so you defeat all Mordor's air units... then what?
A: Well with air superiority, you command the skies. Which means that you can fly right over Mount Doom and drop anything you want right in there... like a ring. Mordor only had nine airborne units, and with them out of the way Mordor has absolutely no way to prevent anyone from flying anywhere.
Q: But the ring would corrupt the eagles trying to drop the ring in, silly.
A: Actually, the ring can only corrupt those who touch it or those in the nearby area. This is a trivial mechanism to defeat. The first step is permanently bind the ring to a weak and helpless creature, like a rat. Second step is of course to put the rat on a long rope, so that the creature holding the rope is out of the sway of the ring. Then the eagle carrying the rope, having total air superiority, flies over Mount Doom and drops the rat in the volcano. An utterly trivial victory.
Q: Ok, so why the elaborately stupid attack plan? Why send the physical rejects as the only hope of mankind?
A: The lesson is that, though they succeed at great cost and great risk, they are still capable of success. This, of course, was the lesson of the Holocaust - that we should never feel so superior to the weak or inferior that we decide they have no place. Even idiot tacticians like Gandalf and weak, pathetic creatures like Hobbits can add some value here & there.
Q: Wait a minute. I just saw the movie, and there's this scene where they're like "this is the last stand of the Men of the West", and all the men of the west are white, and they face of in total war against Indians on Elephants and "black orcs" (er... maybe we just call them "blacks" for short) and the white Men of the West achieve a total genocidal victory. Doesn't that invalidate what you just said?
A: Well, um, no. That's all fine & good, but remember that in the Holocaust we were committing genocide against white people - which is bad. But I'm not sure Tolkien had a problem with what you describe above - as you said, it's in the book.
Q: So, basically, we as white western men should never discriminate against our leaders even if their tactics and strategy are totally flawed, because we are inherently good and will always prevail?
A: Exactly.
Hmmmmm... Makes me wonder... Will there be a special edition DVD for the theatrical release of the extended edition DVD?
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
It'd be great if it did. Nothing quite like a theater viewing of such an epic film.
I HOPE SO!!
I would gladly shell out the money to see the extended edition in the theater.
"Is this just useless, or is it expensive as well?"
Now with even MORE endings!
thelikesofwhich.com
This is absolutely getting out of hand. First the matrix 10 DVD box set now this. Should I be on the edge of my seat for the 30 DVD LOTR box set?
Sigs cause cancer.
As long as there is more money to be made, or even suspected of being made -- it will be in your local multi-plex someday...
But I think I'll watch the extended versions in the confort of my own home. Movie theaters don't have pause buttons.
until I can get the LOTR:ROTK WS EE DVD for my DLP HDTV - I only use DVI IC's for superior IQ.
Now they can show all three extended versions at your local cinema (for $10/movie) with breaks for lunch and supper. :-P
m'eh.. I'll prolly wait for the DVD.
Article one:
Extended Editions Headed to the Cinema?
7/06/04, 9:43 pm EST - Xoanon
Gandalf of Denmark writes: I work in a cinema in Denmark, and on the latest list of releases, it was mentioned that in mid-October Lotr 1,2 & 3 Extended version would be shown in a select number of cinemas. It would seem likely that they are showing the extended versions, a few months ahead of them coming out on dvd, so the December release, seems like a good bet for the dvd's so far.
Article two:
Further Evidence ROTK EE Coming to Theaters
7/07/04, 11:59 am EST - Celeborn
Ringer Baggins of the Shire sends in this tidbit: I work for Odeon cinema chain in the UK, we recieved a letter on Tuesday 6th July explaining that during October the 3 extended editions of the Lord Of The Rings films will be shown on Sunday's. This means ROTK EE will be shown before it is available to buy on DVD!
Hope theres an intermission, or else a free catheter with every ticket. They should do what they did when it was originally released. They showed FotR EE, TTT EE and RotK back to back the day before RotK opened. That sold out around the country in a matter of hours. I'd be even more willing to sit through all 3 EEs in the theatre. With that said i'm still waiting on the RotK EE Platinum Collectors Boxed Set to go with my other two...
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Having three seperate movies kind of irked me anyway; I mean one realllly only needed to see the last movie. The first two movies were okay, but I don't like paying to go see a movie without an ending, that's a cop-out, especially when I have to wait a year or more for the next one. Their whole let's milk the hell out of this series mantra isn't something that's admirable.
I, for one, am not going to spend $20 on movie tickets to go see the same movie extended a tad bit. But, alas, i'm sure the die-hard people will, and that's why they do it. I didn't really like the trilogy anyway, which might make me a little biased.
Maybe the scene where the Wormtoungue throws the Palantír at the fellowship - one of my favourite scenes from the book - filmed but sadly cur from the film....
Web Sig: Eddy Currents
Extended edition? You mean I saw the short version!?
irb(main):001:0>
I am willing to bet there will be theaters which offer screenings of all three extended editions, back to back. Let's do the math:
12 hours of LOTR
+ Pshychotic LOTR-crazed fans
+ several hundred litres of movie-theater pseudo-soda
+ no catheters
-----
= one helluva carpet cleaning bill
and you can bet that those theaters will be full of psychotic LOTR-crazed fans... You can also bet that such a theater would be a great place to sell special movie-theater priced catheters to go with the special movie-theater priced colas...
An extended version of Gods and Generals?
For each of the three films, i was pretty disappointed when i saw them in the cinema for the first time. Yes, they were pretty spectacular, but they just were not as great as i'd hoped. Yet, several months later, when i bought the extended version on dvd and watched it, i found myself to be much more impressed. Those extra half hours in each of the films makes a very real difference. Getting the chance to see the "proper" version on the big screen would certainly make the wait for the dvd a little more bearable ^_^
It seems a little strange (assuming my memory is to be trusted on this) that they would choose to show only the last of the trilogy in the cinemas. Unless of course they mean to show all three (now that would be worth waiting for.)
My wife and I have already spent the GNP of a small African nation going to see these movies (what was it, 5 times for FOTR, 4 for TTT and 3 for ROTK, plus a shyteload of popcorn and hot dogs) and I guess we'll be in the theaters to see this as well.
I myself have no problem giving my money away to this particular cause though. Damn good movies, and they're absolutely worth every last penny.
and we'll all take it hook, line, and sinker!
So, when do I get in line?
If reality was like Slashdot, most people would be (-1) Redundant.
This would need to be in a festival-type setting where you can walk around, shop for LOTR-related items, buy a soda, burger or pizza slice, and get sprayed with water.
Sitting in the theatre for three hours without so much as an intermission was difficult enough, I could not imagine a full day of sitting on my ass without moving. My legs would fall asleep and I would have to crawl out of the theatre.
Most of the people I've talked to feel that three hours was too long time without an intermission.
The difference is that the LotR extendeds DO add to the film. That extra half hour in the past two added so much from the book that was cut due to time constraints. For people who love Tolkien's work, the extended is definitely the far better film, and seeing it in theater would be awesome.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
I saw both of the extended versions of Fellowship and Two Towers at a cinema in the UK in the two weeks leading up to the release of ROTK. Well worth seeing first on the big screen, so I'll be looking out for the extended ROTK (and the triple-bill extended all-dayer!)
The first two movies clocked in at around 2 and a half hours. The extended editions put them both around the 3 and a half hours.
ROTK STARTED at 3 and a half hours... How long is the *extended* edition going to be!?!
(and will it include the destruction of Hobbiton scenes?)
(And no, sitting around while reading /. doesn't count. My sofa is very comfortable, thank you.)
Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
That in 5 years we will have Lord of the Rings prequil trillogy and see the transformation of the White Wizard into the right hand of ultimate evil??
You also have to keep in mind that Peter Jackson stated publicly, before any DVDs were released, that there would be two editions of each movie, and that fans were free to choose which one they wanted to buy. Of course, that didn't stop some people from buying both. But this is not the same thing as, say, releasing four unique editions of Terminator 2 on DVD, with very little to differentiate them, or selling a "Collector's Edition" of the Mummy that wasn't even in widescreen, then immediately releasing an "Ultimate Edition" in widescreen and with more extras. At no time has Peter Jackson or New Line attempted to cheat or otherwise expoit their fanbase. Please remember that before you start complaining again.
There they were, sitting in the van with all those dials, and the cat was dead. -V. Marchetti, CIA
Yeah, I know. As I said before, I really enjoyed the film and I read the book several times. What's more is that I didn't give credit to Jackson who is actually working at another piece of original art (the KingKong movie).
;-)
But still, I can't shake the feeling that the whole business got greedy to the point that it starts to make the industry look bad. Say what you want about Michael Moore but when he said that he didn't care if people download his movie he had a point. They are making "enough" money, and filesharing won't kill cinema.
I could have downloaded LOTR but I rather spent the money on the movie since it was worth it. But bringing the same movie on the screen, over and over again is just lame. I like double features, though. But please no more OBVIOUS ripoffs...
Despite Sauruman's absense, the movie still worked. It should be good to put him back in though. I too would have liked the scouring of the shire, but you have to face it, it isnt going to happen. They didnt film it.
Ah yes... the Collector's Edition. I can hear the tagline now:
"For those who collect copies of 'The Mummy'."
It all seems very silly to me.
That green slime had it coming.
Well, sort of: in this version, Frodo isn't seduced by the ring just before he's about to throw it into Mount Doom. Rather, he still has it around his neck, and Gollum bites off his finger for no good reason.
Actually, the extended edition, as strange as it sounds, probably won't feel as drawn out. Why? Well my biggest complaint with the movie is the last half an hour was all this tiresome conclusion and rap up. But, inbetween the crowning at rivendell, and frodos final departure, there is the return to hobbiton, an action packed event. This was filmed and is to be included on the extended edition. So, infact, you won't have to sit through two long scenes of people hugging and crying, back to back
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
And the scenes aren't really THAT big of a deal for me. (It'd just "add another ending" as other people have been complaining about... not realizing that that was EXACTLY how the book "ended")
:) )
But it'd be nice as an ultimate gift of fan service and maybe as a sign of respect for the art/story to do it.
(Besides, I can't think of how much more footage he can put back in besides the trashing of the Shire... Though I'm sure others on here will tell me.
Tink Kyew
Yeah, that's original.
Don't get me wrong, I loved LOTR, Bad Taste, and Dead Alive, but do we really need another giant monkey movie? Ah well, I'll probably blow my 10 shekels on it anyway...
"If you're thinking what I'm thinking, you're right." -
The extended edition in theaters! Awesome. I can't wait to see it. Sitting there for over three hours. With no bathroom breaks. This is going to be...hey..wha...agh! Help! My bladder is trying to strangle me!
I've encountered numerous shows where people don't shower before hand and stink horribly, and thats for a short movie! I can't imagine sitting with geeks that don't believe in personal cleanliness for 4+ hours. Nasty nasty nasty.
They are making us wait longer for the extended edition DVD than the regular DVD. I doubt that is because it isn't ready. They would just like to sell some people both versions. I fell for it with the first one, but not the second or third. ;)
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
BTW, anyone want a non-extended edition FOTR? ;)
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
While extended versions can be great for people who "just can't get enough" of their favourite franchise, they can be annoying to those who just like movies. For example, while I like The Matrix movies, but if that robots-coming-through-the-roof-and-being-shot scene went any longer, I'd be reaching for my fast-forward button.
Of course the Extended Collectors' Editions are made with fans in mind, but sometimes that's the only one you can buy in the store. I ended up with the Extended edition of The Lion King, for example, that stuff that was new to me and took away from the nostalgia and wanes the kids' attentions pan. Just my $2/100.
- Allen Pike
Altering time, one time at a time.
...can go to Valinor whenever they feel like it. Frodo and Sam pass such a group in the extended first DVD, and in the books there's a much longer sequence involving them.
(And there's no rush; the "last ship" in the movies wasn't about to sail, because there was no last ship. Plenty of Elves were left in Middle-Earth, and Cirdan "sail all you want, we'll make more" the Graybearded just kept building the damn things...)
Galadriel, however, was special. She was the only remaining one of the Noldor who had been banned from Valinor. (The others were dead or had returned.) The ban was rescinded at the end of the First Age. She was still too proud for her own good, though, and refused to accept the invitation. Also, she was one of the first to rebel, so the Valar were not keen on letting her back in.
Once she had learned how to get along with others, and in reward for her work against Sauron, the invitation was re-extended to her, and she accepted. So in her case, yeah, she had to wait until she was ready.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
+1 Pedantic ;), but also quite correct.
I was greatly disappointed that Denethor was never revealed to have been using another palantir (as was his right and duty as Steward). The movie portrays him as generally being a hardass until he goes insane, but the book shows that Sauron had played a large part in driving him insane via the palantir.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I'm all for anything that keeps all those loser LOTR fans locked up in a dark room for hours on end.
I'll wait for the DVD's and have my own private EE marathon.
1. Pause whenever I feel like it. My undersized and overworked bladder thanks me.
2. Equivalent price for equal volume of carbonated beverage is savings enough to help offset the cost of my HDTV. Why willingly support the wretched business practices of the "poor" Movie Industry so that I can enjoy a Coke or two during the show?
3. Not having to smell the foul reek of pure unadulterated nerd - is there a cost associated with this?
I'll pass... I guess I'm still one of those non-social geeks.
Actually, it's not suggested that Gimli departs, it's stated in the Appendices to The Return of the King.
"1541: In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set besides the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down the Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth to the Fellowship of the Ring."
I don't feel like looking it up, but I recall that Gimli was allowed into the West because of his great friendship with Legolas and Galadriel.
Also, this post addresses a question elsewhere in this thread: there is no hard time limit on when Elves can depart from the Havens; in fact, Galadriel, Elrond and others tarry for a few years in Middle Earth, after the destruction of the One Ring. Those that stay longer, however, were subject to a sort of fading. That is what the Three, the Elven rings, were forged to protect against. Thus those Elves who wielded the rings held the the memory of the Elder days.
What ultimately happens to Elves who remained in Middle Earth is never explicitly stated so far as I know.
Why do we have to suffer through idiotic "super duper 23rd special bronze edition" jokes in every single LOTR article?
Since 2001, it's always been standard release, then extended. Nothing more, nothing less, and they've been upfront since the beginning.
Oh, yeah, I forgot, hahahahaha, yeah, multiple versions of a DVD! MPAA sux0r!
I bet that George Lucas wishes he'd thought of that...oh wait...
Dear god no. It was only written 60 years or so ago; public domain lasts for 95 years if the copyright is renewed regularly; Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate have been doing so ever since J.R.R. Tolkien's death.
Additionally, a movie version could not be made over the "usual" channels: the movie rights are definitely owned by the studio.
Flamebait... you call that Flamebait? Seems to hit a too close to home for someone. PS i have already pre-ordered the scences from outside the theater. I can't wait!
This is the way it should have happened...... Gandalf: That ring is bad news, Frodo, it must be destroyed. Frodo: How so? Gandalf: It must be placed in the fires of Mount Doom. Frodo: Oh well, I guess that means a lot of walking, camping and then running away from monsters, lots of death and almost losing all my friends? Galdalf: Nah, I know some big eagles that can fly us straight to the mountain and we can drop it in the lava. We'll be home by tea. Frodo: Nice one!
The best reason to believe that the extended edition of Return of the King will hit theatres before DVD is that a release date has not been announced yet! In 2002 and 2003, the release dates of the extended editions of FOTR and TTT had been announced well in advance of their theatrical versions' DVD releases. That the same is not true of ROTK suggests that more is in store.
Of course, they could just be working on putting together some special stuff for a final release with special stuff for the extended edition trilogy.
Or Peter Jackson and crew could be devoting more energy to a sixty-foot ape.
Oh man.
;)
:p
Wasn't LOTR:ROTK extended enough?
My opinion is probably tainted by the uncomfortable movie theater seats that I was eventually fused into by the end of the movie.
What makes you think he's talking about Jews? The Nazis killed mentally disabled people just as much, which seems to be what he's referring to.
Guess I better not get the "super saver" sized Cherry Coke...
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
People are complaining about length, content, and many endings... READ THE BOOK and find out how much longer it would have been if Peter Jackson didn't cut alot of it out. (My best guess is a set of 7-9 three hour movies)
DarkMantle I been bored, so I started a blog.
Here's the deal. I loved the extended editions with quite a few other geeks like me. Though, having said that, I will admit that the extended editions are not for everyone. It's my opinion that they were made primarily for the Tolkien addicts that even though it added nothing to the movie thematically wanted to see Galadriel giving stuff to the Fellowship. That's the reason they were made. So don't troll him for saying the extended editions sucked, it just means he's not as big a geek as you and I. His loss, or maybe ours because we don't have girlfriends. *shrug*
That's great, though there is one problem--"Bilbo when he was young" didn't meet "Gimli when he was young", he met Gimli's father Gloin.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
What's to fall for? They told you there were going to be two versions. They even told you when they would be released - and with the first two, the EEs were certainly delayed because they weren't done. Sounds to me like you just couldn't wait to see it again, though you could have rented the theatrical release rather than buying it.
There they were, sitting in the van with all those dials, and the cat was dead. -V. Marchetti, CIA
I wonder if there'll be a convenient toilet break in the middle so they can change media.
That's the best bit of the Extended Edition DVDs.
Agrajag: "Oh no, not again!"
When you go to the store, do you point at the shelves full of bread and cry "You're only putting the bread here because there's MONEY TO BE MADE!!!"
Because if you buy something, the capitalists have already won.
Killing mentally disabled, handicaped and uncurable ill people is called euthanasia, and that was "only" one part of the Holocaust.
It's funny. Laugh. It's not supposed to be serious.
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Y'know with Gandalf driving around in the ice-cream truck warning of impending doom
They eventually began to shrink in stature and began to live in the trees, taking up occupations such as shoe cobbling and baking.
I missed the half day full trilogy showing at the release of RotK. Only one theater near me showed it, and the tickets were sold out the day it was announced, three days before I even heard about it. I'll be watching this time.
Too long? P'shaw. I have a strong bladder, and there's a restaurant right next to my favorite theater.
The DVD's announced release date is 12/17. I thought this odd because it's a Friday. Videos are typically released on Tuesdays. I was thinking this was going to coincide with a re-release in the theaters. October is much better. A couple of months to see it on the big screen before bringing it home.
I liked someone's idea of a festival. A theater would do well to have a gaming convention in parallel with showings of the LotR EE's. Have a regular daily schedule of movies, and have dealer tables and gaming rooms running all day and into the night. A 2 day con would go well with these movies.
Is the book in the public domain yet?
Good grief no. Tolkien only died in 1973. UK copyright law is life+70 years, so you have to wait until 2043.
Well, it will really break you to find out that he's planning 3 more. Of course, you knew that.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Finwe was the first King of the Noldor, who led them into Aman. As you say he was killed by Morgoth, when he was suceeded by his son Feanor who led a rebellion of the Noldor to try and get the Silmarills back. Some Noldor decided to turn back and stay in Aman, where they were ruled by Feanor's younger half brother Finarfin, the rest followed Feanor back to Middle-earth, the house of Feanor taking with the curse of the Valar.
Feanor was killed by Morgoth soon afterwards, and the Noldor decided on Fingolfin as High King of the Noldor. The last Noldor High King was Gil-galad, and Galadriel was next in line, but there were too few Noldor left by then, and she never claimed the post. She also fell under the curse of the Valar, though Tolkien changed his mind about this in the end. At any rate she was forgiven in the end as she resisted Sauron and refused the One Ring, and allowed to return to Aman.
Is it bad that I would happily watch these?
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
The movie did not show some of the endings in the book: Legolas and Gimili each visit each other's homelands; The three hobbits all raise families; Sam gets to ride the boat to Valinor; Aragon has a long and productive life and dies; Arwen eventually dies.
Not to mention dropping the whole sub-story of the scouring of the shire- includes Saruman's and Wormtounge's ends.
There really is a Platium Collectors Boxed set of the EEs. Of which i have both. And no theres no other jokes to be had since i havn't bought any of the theatrical releases not do i plan i buying the trilogy set.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Then again some of the scenes missed out would have been very good on-screen. How about the spooky bit on the Barrow Downs? Or putting the army of the Dead where they belong destroying the Corsairs on the Coast of Gondor (I don't think they worked at all well on the Pelennor). Or mining the Appendices for Aragorn and Arwen's backstory, which would introduce Arwen's character better and allow them to follow the rest of the book more closely, with Glorfindel meeting Aragorn and the Hobbits rather than Arwen (which I though in the film actually worked quite well) and Frodo defying the Nazgul on his own at the Ford which adds strength to his character.
You could even work in some of the extra scenes that Tolkien wrote later (published in Unfinished Tales) like the Battle of the Fords of Isen where Theoden's son is killed, or the Hunt for the Ring where the Nazgul are trying to find where the Ring and the Shire are. You could even (as it's an adaptation) have included scenes not in the book though hinted at, like Boromir's journey to Rivendale (that Tolkien wanted to write but never got around to)
As others have said though, treating the LotR's like this would work a lot better as an extended miniseries like Band of Brothers. That way you could even include the Scouring of the Shire, which would have been difficult in a film, as a penultimate episode.
> Killing mentally disabled, handicaped and uncurable ill people is called euthanasia, and that was "only" one part of the Holocaust.
Hitler thought that being Jewish, Polish, etc. was a disability, so it was euthanasia all around.
It could have been worse...remember, Titanic was 3 hours long, and the last hour and a half was full of rushing water...
We can believe in you for 3 minutes, but beyond that, even the King of All Cosmos can't be expected to wait.
pedant /pedant
Euthanasia is from the greek - 'Good Death' and is more properly applied to 'mercy killings' and assisted suicides. I think you're thinking of eugenics - which means making sure undesirable (physical, mental or religious) elements don't perpetuate themselves in the gene pool, either by sterilisation or a swift bullet to the back of the head.
Of course it's going off the rails. How else is it ever going to fly?
D'oh, you are, of course, right.
Yeah, but after the nude scene, it's kind of... hard... to go... you know... in that... "state."
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom