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How Google Will Have Achieved The Semantic Web

alfaromeo points to a business feature (mysteriously available already) by one Paul Ford called "August 2009: How Google beat Amazon and Ebay to the Semantic Web." So read on for a bit of potential history from five years in the future.

242 comments

  1. Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Remember back when we all thought that XML was going to achieve the semantic web by making good search engines unnecessary? Now XML has gone nowhere except as a set of popular libraries for cross-language data serialization, and we're starting to talk about just making really smart search engines.

    1. Re:Heh by primordial+ooze · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remember back when we all thought that XML was going to achieve the semantic web by making good search engines unnecessary?

      Not really, and XML is still such a recent development that to say "Remember when" is silly if not outright disengenuous. I was at the SGML '86 conference in Boston where the XML initial draft was presented. That's less than ten years ago. Can you name a information technology that reached anything like its full potential less than a decade after its first mention?

    2. Re:Heh by primordial+ooze · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was at the SGML '86 conference in Boston where the XML initial draft was presented.

      That was SGML '96 of course. D'oh!

    3. Re:Heh by phats+garage · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'd have to say "Microsoft Bob" peaked pretty early.

    4. Re:Heh by jZnat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't quote me on this (seriously, because if you do, I will cut you), but I thought Microsoft was migrating to XML usage for a lot of their proprietary formats finally. I think it's a good idea, but then again, what if they patent their XML formats?

      Yeah, just letting you know that XML is actually going somewhere.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    5. Re:Heh by KefabiMe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I RTFA. Intriguing, but it would be a huge struggle for Google to become like anything in the article. There's too much money in having the right information at the right time.

      "Now XML has gone nowhere except as a set of popular libraries for cross-language data serialization..."

      XML is still getting more popular and more accepted with each passing month.

      The biggest issues are that there are a few monstrous companies out there that want to control the standard of how information is shared, and mutate XML into some proprietary form that their company can control.

      XML is a good thing, like most standards. Standards can fall short at times, especially when the uber-companies start trying to fight for control over them. I believe that this fight for control will do more to prevent the easy transfer of data, more than any problem with XML itself.

    6. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I was at the SGML '86 conference in Boston where the XML initial draft was presented. That's less than ten years ago

      1986 was 18 years ago.

      Even if it was less then 10 years ago, 10 years is a long time in Internet land. 10 years ago most people had barely even heard of the Internet.

    7. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me wrong, but I love when someone says Microsoft will patent XML. Patenting plain text (like XML) is the most stupid idea I've ever heard of. OTOH it will allow OSS to read Office files more easily (or so I hope).

    8. Re:Heh by primordial+ooze · · Score: 1

      I'd have to say "Microsoft Bob" peaked pretty early.

      I'm pretty sure that you meant that facetiously, but I'll bite and point out that MS Bob was simply an early (bad) implementation of a context-sensitive help system. In ten years, the ways that everyday computers will be able to deduce and anticipate users' needs and desires is going to be light years ahead of this. For examples you can check out any number of academic research programs - MIT's Media Lab http://www.media.mit.edu/ is a good place to start. In particular, the Things That Think group, and the research of Maes, Leiberman, Ariely and Selker.

    9. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remember back when we all thought that XML was going to achieve the semantic web by making good search engines unnecessary?

      Nope. I remember a bunch of people with no clue hyping it up as such, but anybody actually involved with XML in any technical capacity, including the creators, understood that it was simply a standardised syntax for file formats. So-called pundits jumped on each others' bandwagons in touting it as some kind of miracle, but anybody who actually knew what they were talking about wouldn't make claims about XML that you reckon.

    10. Re:Heh by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 5, Funny

      Careful, they might implement their XML with just one tag, called 'data', and just stick their regular old Word documents into that as an encoded binary.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    11. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      but I thought Microsoft was migrating to XML usage for a lot of their proprietary formats finally

      And they're using it as a data serialization format-- just a way to store some structured data. The nature of that structured data is fair to remain just as proprietary as if it were stored as a big slab of binary.

      The initial promise of XML was that it would serve not just as a popular library for serializing structured data, but as a common platform for communicating data.

    12. Re:Heh by rf0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Surely the best data stucture would be normal web pages with a system that can understand natural language

      Rus

    13. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In ten years, the ways that everyday computers will be able to deduce and anticipate users' needs and desires is going to be light years ahead of this.

      I see. So your response to any suggested examples is going to be "well, I bet we'll be doing better than that one day!". Might as well pat yourself on the back now, your "a information technology" is such a nebulous concept and your "anything like its full potential" is so far beyond even estimation that there's no point in anyone even discussing it.

    14. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'll bite and point out that MS Bob was simply an early (bad) implementation of a context-sensitive help system

      And XML is just an implementation of storing stuff in a structured format. Why does XML qualify as an information technology but not Bob?

    15. Re:Heh by FlutterVertigo(gmail · · Score: 1

      Which is why I coined the phrase about the Internet way back when as "The World's Biggest Secret Club" - the only way most people knew what the Internet was was if they were on it.

    16. Re:Heh by shigelojoe · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh great, you quoted him. Now he's going to have to cut you.

    17. Re:Heh by Metasquares · · Score: 2, Interesting

      XML is still slated to achieve the semantic web - it's just XML + RDF + another language on top (looks like OWL right now, but it's been changing for a very long time). Unfortunately, it has become a nightmare to annotate a page for use on the semantic web in this fashion. I know: I've tried.

      In any case, search engines would still have to exist, though they would probably exist as a chain of agents each sending queries to other agents.

      I find it interesting that the article compared semantic web logic to highschool logic; the semantic web uses first-order logic, which is typically the sort of logic you'd learn in a college-level AI class. The logic isn't the difficult part, though - it's the syntax that's difficult to add, as I said above.

    18. Re:Heh by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      Natural language can be very difficult for machines to parse properly, though it would obviously be very easy for humans to understand. I agree, though: If a good enough (and fast enough) natural language parser existed, we could build the semantic web using the content of the existing web.

    19. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that you meant that facetiously, but I'll bite and point out that MS Bob was simply an early (bad) implementation of a context-sensitive help system.

      And they've only gone downhill from there.

    20. Re:Heh by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1
      Remember back when we all thought that XML was going to achieve the semantic web by making good search engines unnecessary?

      I never thought that because it didn't make sense. Somebody was still going to have to store local copies of the terabytes of the internet and have the computing horsepower to perform the searches. It's not like it's feasible to crawl the entire Internet every time you want to perform a search.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    21. Re:Heh by primordial+ooze · · Score: 4, Interesting

      1986 was 18 years ago.

      Well, hopefully you saw that I corrected my dates above - the initial draft was floated in 96, not 86, so it has been less than ten years.

      Even if it was less then 10 years ago, 10 years is a long time in Internet land. 10 years ago most people had barely even heard of the Internet.

      That actually proves my point - ten years ago most people might have barely heard of the Internet, but it had been around for 25 years (first ARPANet nodes were brought online in '69 - one can even make a case for it being 30 years if you go by the 1964 initial public proposal by the RAND Corporation.

      Maybe you misspoke though and meant the World Wide Web. Well the first web browser was built in 1990, but the first working hypertext system is arguably Doug Engelbart's NLS back in the early 60s! (for which he also built the first mouse, btw. What a creative brain!)

      It can take a long time for technologies to mature.

      The whole idea of "Internet time" is a myth. What there is "dot.com business cycle" time, which is faster than normal, perhaps in part because of the technologies involved, but also in large part because of the naïveté (ie gullibility) of both the associated employee and investor populations.

      ***

      In any case, the article we are discussing isn't interesting because of the specific details (XML, Google, Preident Ashcroft ) but because of the larger idea that emerging inet technologies may (continue to) radically change the nature of information exchange and commerce. It makes sense to think about and debate the possible forms that this change could take and what advantages and pitfalls might be waiting for us.

    22. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Can you name a information technology that reached anything like its full potential less than a decade after its first mention?

      Sure. HTTP. HTML. Gopher. Napster's protocol.

      The real problem with XML is that it's just a really verbose way of doing what people were doing with delimited files (edi files, .csv, etc) for ages. And then people try to create even more verbose equivalents of CORBA on top of it. Ugh.

      The one sole advantage XML has is all those secretaries-turned-"HTML Programmers" understand it.

    23. Re:Heh by bscanl · · Score: 0, Redundant

      > I was at the SGML '86 conference in Boston where
      > the XML initial draft was presented. That's less
      > than ten years ago

      1986 was 18 years ago.

      I think he meant the SGML conference in Boston in 1996. Don't attribute to malice what can be easily attributed to typo :)

    24. Re:Heh by Zeinfeld · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Now XML has gone nowhere except as a set of popular libraries for cross-language data serialization..."

      If there was a sentence in the article that proved it was rubbish this would be it. XML is not just slightly popular, it is now the defacto structured data representation. There is no competitor, there is simply no other format that is used in new protocol standards. Within ten years the DNS will have migrated to an XML format.

      RDF on the other hand is a not very good idea to start with that has not exactly improved with the years. All RDF is in principle is typed set theory logic, so instead of trying to define a new set of semantics why not simply import Z or VDM wholesale?

      Second problem with RDF is that it is really hard for a grad student to write an operational or denotational semantics for a programming language, a field that has only been worked on solidly for thrity years or so. So now we are expected to be defining semantics for everything???

      The way that semantics get attached to syntax is through use. Use in this case means a program. I don't know that there is any RDF application out there that is likely to go much of anywhere soon.

      I think that the way to get to a semantic web is completely different. You start from XML documents rather than attempt to change what the world chose for syntax. You build simple operational vocabularies of common terms for use in catalogues and make it really easy for people to categorize their work within those catalogues. You take as your starting premise that any structure of knowledge is going to be a work in progress.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    25. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      1986
      "That's less than ten years ago."

      Less than 10 years huh? What, are we still in the mid 90's?

    26. Re:Heh by jjoyce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      XML doesn't mean that computers will be able to classify information based on semantics, it just packages data so that the computers don't have to do that work. Somebody still has to mark up the information.

    27. Re:Heh by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      Add regular expression support to Google and all the web's problems will be solved. :)

    28. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there was a sentence in the article that proved it was rubbish this would be it.

      He was not quoting the article. He was quoting the parent post.

      XML is not just slightly popular, it is now the defacto structured data representation.

      Okay. How does this conflict the statement that XML's success has been in the area of data serialization? Methinks I should have worded that better.

    29. Re:Heh by boarsai · · Score: 2, Funny

      Clippy has yet to reach it's peak :P

    30. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's saying they tried to do it when they couldn't, dipshit.

    31. Re:Heh by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Machines do not cope well with ambiguity, at least not any that I've ever run across. Humans have always had to cope with an ambiguous world. It isn't just a problem of parsing, it a problem of what the elements are that it is parsed into. The meanings of the words are in part determined by the context in which they are used.

      This sentence no verb.

    32. Re:Heh by Moonpie+Madness · · Score: 1

      no

    33. Re:Heh by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Within ten years the DNS will have migrated to an XML format.

      I've heard some RETARDED statements on /. before, but this near takes the cake. DNS using XML?

      Whatever you are smoking, I want some - 'cause it's clearly some REALLY GOOD SHIAT!

      Given that:

      1) DNS is a protocol, not a data format, and

      2) XML is a data format, not a protocol, and

      3) DNS is incredibly light and efficient, and

      4) DNS has already proven that it scales well to just about any size, and

      5) XML offers no particular advantage, since you could serve DVD ISOs over the DNS, and

      6) moving to an "XML PROTOCOL" format would require the update of every single DNS server on the face of the earth, many of which are still running Bind 8.x, and some are still running BIND 4.X for god's sake,

      I consider this to be HIGHLY UNLIKELY(tm) !!!!!

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    34. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the date this article was posted (the real date that is): Friday, July 26, 2002

    35. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate to mention it dude, but '86 was 18 years ago not less than 10. Maybe you mean '96 - which indeed would have been 8 years ago.

    36. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Can you name a information technology that reached anything like its full potential less than a decade after its first mention?"

      online porn

    37. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably less than 20 years...?

    38. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's certainly a programmer's view of XML, and since XML is just a set of libraries to a programmer, that's what you'd expect. Hardly counts as insight though. XML is associated with a huge array of processing tools, and some people are creating a version of the semantic web now as far as having semantic content processed into various formats (HTML, PDF, WML) from a single set of semantically-indexed sources. The move from that to a semantic web is easy to envision, but first we need a pretty hardcore revision of content. Or true AI to automatically process every piece of shitty HTML 3 that's out there. Neither of these things is going to happen overnight.

    39. Re:Heh by BarryNorton · · Score: 1
      why not simply import Z or VDM wholesale?

      Z is inconsistent, whereas the aim of description logics built for semantic web technologies is foremost to be consistent.

      VDM is a (refinement-based) development method (hence DM), and therefore nothing directly to do with the description of knowledge.

    40. Re:Heh by BarryNorton · · Score: 1
      Second problem with RDF is that it is really hard for a grad student to write an operational or denotational semantics for a programming language, a field that has only been worked on solidly for thrity years or so. So now we are expected to be defining semantics for everything???

      Defining a complete operational semantics for a formal language can be difficult (and denotational even moreso - yes, I'm a theoretical computer scientist), but formalising a fragment of the static relationships between concepts is far less so (and happening).

      The way that semantics get attached to syntax is through use. Use in this case means a program. I don't know that there is any RDF application out there that is likely to go much of anywhere soon.

      There's a lot of FOAF out there and quite a few good applications over it with useful functionality...

      I think that the way to get to a semantic web is completely different. You start from XML documents rather than attempt to change what the world chose for syntax. You build simple operational vocabularies of common terms for use in catalogues and make it really easy for people to categorize their work within those catalogues. You take as your starting premise that any structure of knowledge is going to be a work in progress.

      Ontologies, you mean - I think you'll find that this is part of the effort. Other than that, in disagreeing with RDF and proposing XML, all you're really saying is that we should use tree-structured data, rather than multigraphs, for the representation - one might just as well represent the RDF in XML... which is the standard approach already!

    41. Re:Heh by jwkane · · Score: 1

      He's presumably (hopefully?) talking about the zone file format.

    42. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you clarify what you mean by "college level" - in the UK, that's 16-18 year-olds, but I think in the USA that's 18-21 year-olds.

      Syntax isn't supposed to be an issue - XML wasn't intended to be written by hand in normal practice. Hand-authoring something on top of RDF on top of XML is madness. Just generate the final result using higher-level APIs.

    43. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me wrong, but I love when someone says Microsoft will patent XML.

      You mean like this? You can read some terms here.

      Patenting plain text (like XML) is the most stupid idea I've ever heard of.

      XML isn't plain text.

    44. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not going to happen for a long, long time. Think about it - Google would have to run a regexp over every document they have indexed each time anybody used a regexp search. That is vastly different to how they do things at the moment - indexing each document for keywords ahead of time and only consulting the index for each search.

    45. Re:Heh by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      He's presumably (hopefully?) talking about the zone file format.

      And, so what if he was? How is that "DNS"? A dns config file could be easily kept as LDAP entries, or in a SQL database, or (god forbid) hexidecimal notation.

      I've written a mini-application that keeps DNS zone file information in a database, to be managed by an access-restricted web thing-a-majig, to then parse into Bind 8.x format.

      The config file format is largely irrelevant. It's the protocol that matters when you are talking DNS.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    46. Re:Heh by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      Z is inconsistent, whereas the aim of description logics built for semantic web technologies is foremost to be consistent.

      News to me.

      Z has the usual Goedel issues concerning omega consistency and completeness, but it was shown to be consistent by Mike Spivey ten years back.

      As for it being any different to VDM in this regard, I can't see why that would be the case, the schemes are pretty much alike.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    47. Re:Heh by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      Ontologies, you mean - I think you'll find that this is part of the effort.

      No, I happen to know what the word originally meant, a system of being. I think it was ludicrous when the AI world started to make claims of that type in the 1970s and it is ridiculous to keep repeating the mistake now.

      A vocabulary of shared terms is a perfectly reasonable term of art to use and one that does not involve any claims that could be fairly described as blasphemous.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    48. Re:Heh by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      I've heard some RETARDED statements on /. before, but this near takes the cake. DNS using XML? Whatever you are smoking, I want some - 'cause it's clearly some REALLY GOOD SHIAT!

      Oh Microsoft has already proposed as much in UDDI and the second attempt to insert XML records into the DNS this year is now well under way.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    49. Re:Heh by BarryNorton · · Score: 1

      I'm also quite aware of previous use of this word and not its biggest fan (there again, the same might be said about a word like 'monad'). Still, ontologies in, say, OWL (building on RDF) are lexica (as well as taxonomies and bases for reasoning also over logical axioms) and so I stand by what I say: what you're 'suggesting' is already accommodated in this world...

  2. Google 2012: The Singularity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    How Google become self-aware and took over the world.

    1. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by mlcolosimo · · Score: 0

      Let us be thankful we have Google. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy. And be happy.

    2. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by nz_mincemeat · · Score: 3, Funny

      I would put $5 with Google in a Google vs Skynet bout.

    3. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by RamboCalrissian · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah... in the future I see, Taco Bell is the only surviving resturant from the great franchise wars, and Google runs rampant on the streets.

    4. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by gasgesgos · · Score: 1

      It looks like today's your lucky day! Google won! Here's your five dollars

    5. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by sTalking_Goat · · Score: 1

      Don't joke about that Ahrrnold is Governor which is one step closing to being President.

      --

      My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

    6. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    7. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by caino59 · · Score: 1

      son of a bitch

      it's close

      almost there....

    8. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by sean23007 · · Score: 1

      Don't you know that evil will always triumph over good?

      It's because good is dumb.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    9. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by rynthetyn · · Score: 1

      No, that's unnecessary, because it's clear that Google will become Skynet.

      --
      Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
    10. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by cbreaker · · Score: 1

      I think he'd win, too.

      Which, actually, I'm not entirely against. He's been trying to do some good things in California, he wasn't born rich - he's had to work hard for his money, and he has not been a career politician all his life. All these things could definately make for an interesting President, that might actually change the way things are headed now (into the shitter.)

      Too bad he's Republican! hah

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    11. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      I think he'd win, too. Which, actually, I'm not entirely against. He's been trying to do some good things in California, he wasn't born rich - he's had to work hard for his money, and he has not been a career politician all his life. All these things could definately make for an interesting President, that might actually change the way things are headed now (into the shitter.)

      Too bad he's Republican! hah

      Too bad, also, that he wasn't born a US citizen and, as such, cannot be president. Alexander Hamilton, the guy on the US $10 bill, was never president because he was born in the Caribbean. It's written in to the constitution that way.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    12. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by cbreaker · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're slick.

      If you read the sister post to mine, or have been paying attention to government affairs at all, you'd know that they are actively trying to remove that limitation; requiring someone to live in the US for 20 or 35 years- not born here.

      And nowhere in my post did I say that he could, now, become president if he wanted to. I simply said that I think he'd win, not that he was elligable or not.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    13. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by StressedEd · · Score: 1

      It's written in to the constitution that way.

      Just change it. Or is The Constitution (TM) something utterly immutable?

      --
      Be nice to people on the way up. You will meet them again on your way down!
    14. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Actually Google became self-aware and took over the world in 2010. It's just that no one noticed for two and a half years.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    15. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      It's written in to the constitution that way.

      Just change it. Or is The Constitution (TM) something utterly immutable?

      Oh sure, you try to push through a constitutional amendment to change that. "Hey, let's amend the constitution so FOREIGNERS can be president!" You can word it any way you like, but the opposition will always call it the "Foreigners For President Amendment" and it'll never pass.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    16. Re:Google 2012: The Singularity by sTalking_Goat · · Score: 1
      rofl! 50 maybe, evn 30 years passing a consitutional Amendment against gay marraige would ahve been a no brainer.

      Today, not so much. Who knows what the future holds.

      --

      My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

  3. Semantic Web by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 5, Informative
    Source

    Semantic Web, proper noun

    An attempt to apply the Dewey Decimal system to an orgy.

    Or

    The Semantic Web is a project underway that intends to create a universal medium for the exchange of information by giving meaning, in a manner understandable by machines, to the content of documents on the web. Currently under the direction of its creator, Tim Berners-Lee of the World Wide Web Consortium, the Semantic Web extends the ability of the World Wide Web through the use of standards, markup languages and related processing tools.

    --
    I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    1. Re:Semantic Web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You forget the original source: http://www.w3c.org/2001/sw/

    2. Re:Semantic Web by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Funny

      An attempt to apply the Dewey Decimal system to an orgy.

      I just filed my orgy under 126 -- see it is useful!!

    3. Re:Semantic Web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, didn't mean to file under 69 before you.

    4. Re:Semantic Web by dixon · · Score: 0

      I recently started playing around with Jena, a Java API for writing Semantic Web applications. W3C's Resource Desciption Framework (RDF) page has RDF specs, a means for storing semantic information.

      Incidentally, Paul Ford is a regular writer on these sorts of topics. He has a collection of writings on the web and semantics.

      Tim

    5. Re:Semantic Web by musselm · · Score: 1

      If you re-check the first result from your link, you might find that "126" is for "The self." "Not assigned or no longer used" is filed under 125.

      What kind of orgy is your orgy?:)

  4. First post? by primordial+ooze · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Very interesting ideas, but I seriously doubt that Google could (or would) try to squeeze a percentage out of every transaction performed using the hypothesized marketplace manager. That just doesn't seem to fit their modus operandi. More likely they'd give place preference to paying clients, much as they do now with the existing search pages.

    But as I said, a provocative read. Metadata truly is the future.

    1. Re:First post? by Reducer2001 · · Score: 1
      That just doesn't seem to fit their modus operandi.

      What until they become a publicly traded company. The needs of the stockholders outweigh the needs of the masses.

      --
      When you get to hell -- tell 'em Itchy sent ya!
    2. Re:First post? by centipetalforce · · Score: 1
      "More likely they'd give place preference to paying clients, much as they do now with the existing search pages".
      Google doesnt do that, yahoo does. G gets most of their income from adwords, the text ads you see in the results.
    3. Re:First post? by the+pickle · · Score: 0

      Metadata truly is the future.

      It's too bad Apple and Microsoft don't seem to care about it. :-\

      p

    4. Re:First post? by primordial+ooze · · Score: 1

      It's too bad Apple and Microsoft don't seem to care about it. :-\

      Au contraire, mon frere:

      http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlighttech. ht ml

    5. Re:First post? by kabrakan · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Wow, its going to be so easy to finally get that weapons grade plutonium i've been looking for.

      I mean an engine....

      --
      Slartibartfast:"Is that your robot?"
      Marvin:"No, I'm mine."
    6. Re:First post? by the+pickle · · Score: 1

      It remains to be seen how well that will work. Hopefully it works as well as type and creator codes but without being nearly as obscure or difficult to fix when problems arise.

      Put another way, I don't think this is as big of a step forward as completely throwing out metadata in OS X was a step backward. There's a great article about it by John Siracusa on Ars Technica, but I'm on a dog-slow connection right now and can't look it up.

      p

    7. Re:First post? by Lozzer · · Score: 1

      I think their offering is structured to limit the power of the stockholders

      --
      Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
  5. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Wait, this is a fictional article? Hmm, why is this on slashdot. It is humorous... But, what use is this to us. Are those google products actually being released? (Google Marketplace Search, Google Personal Agent, and Google Verification Manager, and a software product, Google Marketplace Manager.) It does mention 2004 as when they are released...

    BTW, I really doubt Ashcroft will become president. I think most Republicans would object to that as well...

  6. The French and the Germans by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 0, Troll

    The French and the Germans both had really crappy roads.

    The French tried to solve this by giving their cars really springy suspensions that could handle the awful roads without a problem.

    The germans made really well engineered roads and high test maintenance methods.

    Looking at the resultant cars, who do you think had a better approach?

    --
    "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
    1. Re:The French and the Germans by nz_mincemeat · · Score: 1

      The French, of course ;)

      You'd be surprised by the number of Peugeots running in Tanzania...

    2. Re:The French and the Germans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! Don't make us look like some kind of Microsoft country!

    3. Re:The French and the Germans by stefanlasiewski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Looking at the resultant cars, who do you think had a better approach?

      If you're just looking at the quality of the cars, then I'd say the Germans.

      But maybe it's not quite that simple. I'm more concerned about who gets me what I want with the least amount of cost or effort.

      However, a nice infrastructure doesn't necessarily mean you'll produce the best products. The Germans may have nice roads, but it's because the roads are heavily subsidized by taxes.

      The French may have bad roads, but they cost less in taxes. If can just buy a car with good suspension you'll be ok. If you want to save money, you can deal with the bumpy roads.

      And both countries have alternatives to cars: The excellent (but subsidized) rail systems.

      --
      "Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
  7. He wouldn't by any chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Be planning to buy many shares of Google, would he?

  8. Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This article was posted last year.

  9. I can see many uses for this semweb stuff by CrackedButter · · Score: 5, Funny


    So, you're a small African republic in the midst of a revolution with a megalomaniac leader, an expatriate Russian scientist in your employ, and 6 billion in heroin profits in your bank account, and you need to buy some weapons-grade plutonium.

    Who does it for you?
    Google Personal Agent
    Now there's innovation and balls in one sentence! I take it the War on terror is won in 2009 or these sorts of semweb transaction become the norm. How *could* Amazon and Ebay compete when it comes to selling nuclear weapons?

    1. Re:I can see many uses for this semweb stuff by RWerp · · Score: 1

      That's why we had
      Doug Lenat of the CYC corporation, who somehow ended up on President Ashcroft's post-coup blacklist as a dangerous intellectual and hasn't been seen since.
      in the article.

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    2. Re:I can see many uses for this semweb stuff by Neoncow · · Score: 1

      Then imagine selling services to the SemWeb. I imagine the President calling for fundraising to fight the proposed war on terror and the people of the world deciding if they would pay to have that done.

  10. Slashdot purpose by someguy456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So I guess since ./ couldn't handle the past, and is failing miserably with the present, it will now resort to fortune-telling?

    Editors, could we at least keep the dupes down? :)

    1. Re:Slashdot purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess since ./ couldn't handle the past, and is failing miserably with the present, it will now resort to fortune-telling?


      Yeah, DotSlash is funny that way.

    2. Re:Slashdot purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, DotSlash is funny that way.

      See, we're already getting good at it. Somehow, he knew there was a dot coming...

    3. Re:Slashdot purpose by MagiGraphX · · Score: 0

      Their minds are being controlled. http://zapatopi.net/mindguard.html

    4. Re:Slashdot purpose by djocyko · · Score: 1

      dupes? What dupes? The first article is simply a foretelling of the second! ;-)

  11. The future is incremental... by vudufixit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It happens one second, one day, one month, one year at a time. To speculate out that far in the tech world, where changes in tempo, fortune and direction are so common, is rather silly to me.

    1. Re:The future is incremental... by underpar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's silly, but entertaining. News agencies spend a lot of time/money on speculation of this sort because everyone wants a crystal ball.

      If that weren't the case *real* news may have to be reported, and where's the fun in that?

    2. Re:The future is incremental... by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      As the author of TFA mentions in his further commentary, the technology he describes already exists. It just hasn't been implemented yet in the way he describes, although there are certainly trends in that direction, and overall, metadata is becoming more and more important.

      Speculating on the future and trying to spot trends might seem silly to you, but without it, Harlan Elison wouldn't be able to make car commercials.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    3. Re:The future is incremental... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's actually very easy to see where personal computing will be in 20 years. You just have to look at where the research is today.

  12. But none of this ever happened by Halcyon-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because all of the patents to do so were tied up between various companies that didn't want to cooperate with each other.

    --

    .sig: Open Source, Open Mind

    1. Re:But none of this ever happened by nz_mincemeat · · Score: 1

      ...not if Google grabbed all the patents it needed first :)

      Not that The Big G will ever do that, but the parent does raise an interesting issue.

  13. Who wrote the article? by CrackedButter · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hari Seldon?

    1. Re:Who wrote the article? by xactuary · · Score: 1

      That would make him First Poster.

      --
      Say hello to my little sig.
    2. Re:Who wrote the article? by Fortress · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny you mention an Isaac Asimov character. I remember a short story of his called "Sis" about an orbiting computerized that took over the world in a benevolent sort of way. IIRC, he ended up comparing it to God as all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good. If Google sticks to their "Do no evil" policy, maybe they will become "Sis."

    3. Re:Who wrote the article? by skraps · · Score: 1

      Sounds pretty similar to The Last Question, also by Asimov.

      --
      Karma: -2147483648 (Mostly affected by integer overflow)
    4. Re:Who wrote the article? by Fortress · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I think it was a slightly different story. SIS stood for "Switzerland in Space," and the computer was the banking system. Didn't go as far into the future as The Last Question, but the ending was pretty much the same.

      I googled it but didn't find the whole text, only a reference to "Science Past - Science Future" published in 1975.

  14. old article.... by TheClam · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anyone else notice that this is from July 26, 2002?

    1. Re:old article.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah maybe the article is from 2002 but the prediction is for 2009, which is..the last I checked..is in the future. quite a ways into the future...

  15. Wtf? by spellraiser · · Score: 3, Interesting
    So the guess has always been that you need a whole lot of syntactically stable statements in order to come up with anything interesting. In fact, you need a whole brain's worth - millions. Now, no one has proved this approach works at all, and the #1 advocate for this approach was a man named Doug Lenat of the CYC corporation, who somehow ended up on President Ashcroft's post-coup blacklist as a dangerous intellectual and hasn't been seen since.

    Interesting prediction there ... but what does it have to do with The Semantic Web? Oh well - guess it's pretty hard to write a fictional future piece without injecting bizzare humor into it. Right? Right?

    --
    I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    1. Re:Wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look further through the piece, you see that Apple owns Spain, and Google bought out paypal.

    2. Re:Wtf? by salesgeek · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh well - guess it's pretty hard to write a fictional future piece without injecting bizzare humor into it.

      Or ruining it with predictions that have nothing to do with what you are predicting. The whole article's irrelevant because in nine years the world will be underwater from rising sea levels due do global warming, then frozen solid by nuclear winter, and generally burnt to a crisp by unfiltered solar radiation from the ozone layer checking out.

      Right? Right?

      In this case, Left, Right? Or somewhere that isn't the center.

      --
      -- $G
    3. Re:Wtf? by Samrobb · · Score: 2, Funny

      The semantic web is bogus :-)

      --
      "Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
  16. Finance Transfer Protocol? by Scythr0x0rs · · Score: 4, Funny

    Finance Transfer Protocol?

    They need to think about this more.
    'FTP me $25'
    Then you find a 15mb top resolution scan of a couple of green bills in your /pub folder.

    1. Re:Finance Transfer Protocol? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Could be worse: Banking by Kazaa or Napster.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:Finance Transfer Protocol? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the fuck would you do something as retarded as making /pub writable?

    3. Re:Finance Transfer Protocol? by Dr.+GeneMachine · · Score: 1

      Now that would be pure communism, wouldn't it? And we cannnot allow that, yes?

      --
      This comment does not exist.
    4. Re:Finance Transfer Protocol? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      In pure communism, there wouldn't be anything to transfer. In most applied communism there wouldn't be anything left to transfer. ;P

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  17. Teh Funn13n3ss!!!11one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    From A bit of commentary on Google and the Semantic Web:

    So far they have only demonstrated excellent intentions, but the invisible hand of the market is quite a thing, and you often find it stuck right up your ass, or in your pocket looking for your wallet.

    Ahahahaha that made me laugh.

  18. quick slashdot poll, by CmdrTostado · · Score: 1

    which is more accurate,
    a) history from the future
    b) history of the past

    1. Re:quick slashdot poll, by weighn · · Score: 1
      which is more accurate,
      a) history from the future
      b) history of the past

      and if the victors get to write the history, who writes the future?

      --
      Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
  19. METAFILTER LOGIN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Username: Login
    Password: Login

  20. One point the poster missed by Limburgher · · Score: 2, Insightful

    President Ashcroft==Scary as hell

    --

    You are not the customer.

  21. BB by jals · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I started off reading this and gradually got quite excited by the ideas presented.

    About half way through I mistakenly thought I was reading an online copy of 1984.

    The benifits of this happening sound fantastic. It just sounds very cool for everyone to be connected like that - which is what scares me even more. Here is an absolutely huge privacy concern; and it has me totally excited about the prospect of it happening.

    Sorry to go slightly off topic, but it's things like this that worry me a lot, that a possible 1984 scenario could disguise itself so well that even a person like me - who is verging on (if not already there) being a member of the tin foil hat brigade - excited by the very idea of it.

    1. Re:BB by RWerp · · Score: 1

      What threat of privace is in Symantic Web? It's all about gathering information from the Web. If you don't want people to know something, don't put it on the Web.

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
    2. Re:BB by Garion+Maki · · Score: 1

      you might not put it on the web, but can you be shure that your naiber, your local police officer, your wife, etc. aren't putting that bit of information that you don't want everybady to know on the web?

      and what if sombady puts on allot of false information about you?
      for example, a group of people who start a rumor that you raped sombady...
      they start it as a rumor, sombady else see's it as some real information and put's it online...
      from rumor to part of your identity in no time...

      like always... information is a powerfull thing... and power atracts coruption...

      --
      All indicators show that the human race is selectively breeding itself for stupidity.
    3. Re:BB by RWerp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They can do it now. It all depends whether the police would be stupid enough to take slander as sound evidence.

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
  22. Five years into the future? by lurker412 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Give me a break. Machine translation of foreign languages has been promised "in the next ten years" for the past 40 years. Unfortunately, the state of the art is still very close to:

    "The flesh is willing but the spirit is weak" in English translates to "The meat is full of stars but the vodka is made of pinking shears" or suchlike in Russian.

    The semantic web is a wonderful dream, but it is certainly going to take more than five years to become a reality. Like voice recognition, the semantic web requires a solution to the natural language problem to be implemented successfully. Don't hold your breath.

    1. Re:Five years into the future? by wfberg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A babelfish English->Russian->English translation works out as "Flesh is willingly ready but spirit it is weak", which is pretty close to the mark.

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    2. Re:Five years into the future? by lurker412 · · Score: 1

      The Babelfish English->Russian-English translation of "out of sight, out of mind" comes back as "from the sighting, from the reason." This is somewhat less amusing than the classic "invisible idiot" result (I think that was to and from Chinese) of some years ago, but certainly leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe in another 10 years? ;)

    3. Re:Five years into the future? by LetterJ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, colloquial translation is lacking, but text that is deliberately composed to *be translated*, goes through suprisingly well.

      I mean, would you use "out of sight, out of mind" in a conversation with someone who had only a couple of years of English classes without having to explain it? Probably not. Rather, you'd most likely use a smaller vocabulary with fewer long phrases and idioms. If you do that with your text intended for translation, it does pretty well.

      The goal of most translation is the ability to communicate and things like Babelfish have allowed me to communicate with users of my software from around the world with little difficulty, each using our own language. Are we going to be collaborating on great literature? No. However if I can get Babelfish level translation done portable and cheap, traveling will be much more enjoyable.

    4. Re:Five years into the future? by InterGuru · · Score: 1

      The 'standard' mistranslation , made by translating from English to Russian and then back to English. starts with "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" after the two translations comes out as "The whisky is strong, but the meat is rotten" This story has been circulating as some sort of urban legend for over 40 years. For more details see The whisky was invisible (pdf).

    5. Re:Five years into the future? by Euler · · Score: 1

      I totally agree, I was going to post the same idea. AI research has been tripping and falling down over the same damn problem for half a century because computer scientists in that area cannot see the futility of the symbolic approach. (The semantic web is a very structured approach to ill defined human/real-world data.) I thought research of the 1990's finally put the nail in the coffin with 'fuzzy' approaches such as neural nets et. al.

      Even if the semantic web was technically viable (it isn't), the human factors would kill it:

      1. Major tech companies will corrupt and pervert the standards and intended usage.

      2. Overworked and underskilled web page designers will write broken semantic 'code' because they just want the page to look a certain way. They won't care about keeping a parallel set of semantic rules in sync. Yeah, I know a system could be devised to handle this automatically, but things tend to go to the lowest common denominator.

      3. The foundations of the semantic web such as XML, or its next best thing are only as good as the tags that people define for it. If there isnt a consolidated common understanding of tag meaning, then there is no point in defining a highly extensible base language.

      4. End users wont trust the applications... privacy issues, not enough reason to break their existing schemas, would rather just do things themselves.

    6. Re:Five years into the future? by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Longer than 10 years.

      out of sight, out of mind.
      Extremely parallel
      out of foo, out of bar

      me no see-um.
      me forget-um.

      gone and forgotten.

      gone from view, gone from memory.

      out of sight -- cannot be seen -- invisible
      extrinsic property is translated to intrinsic property

      out of mind -- doesn't stand on it's own,
      so the meaning of forget is unreachable.

    7. Re:Five years into the future? by kamapuaa · · Score: 1
      Sure, colloquial translation is lacking, but text that is deliberately composed to *be translated*, goes through suprisingly well.

      I mean, would you use "out of sight, out of mind" in a conversation with someone who had only a couple of years of English classes without having to explain it? Probably not. Rather, you'd most likely use a smaller vocabulary with fewer long phrases and idioms. If you do that with your text intended for translation, it does pretty well.

      The goal of most translation is the ability to communicate and things like Babelfish have allowed me to communicate with users of my software from around the world with little difficulty, each using our own language. Are we going to be collaborating on great literature? No. However if I can get Babelfish level translation done portable and cheap, traveling will be much more enjoyable.

      Running your post from English to Russian, and back from Russian to English, using Babelfish, yields:

      Confident, razgovornoyy-narodn the transfer requires, but text which is deliberately comprised * transfer *, it goes to end suprisingly in the best way.

      I will intend, you would be used tyuey &.tsuot;.out sighting, from mind&.quot; in the negotiation someone it did have only a pair of years of English types without to explain it? Probably not. It is sufficient, benefit you'.d most likely smaller terminology with a few dlinnimi phrases and idioms. If you make first with your text intended for the transfer, then they make dear good.

      It will ability connect with the purpose of the majorities of transfer and with things as Babelfish it made it possible me to connect with the users of my means of programming from around the world with the smaller difficulty, each use of our own language. We do go to collaborate on the large literature? No. However, if I can obtain Babelfish flat portable and it is cheap, then those made a transfer, move will be very enjoyableee.

      PS: In all fairness, I write mails in Japanese and Spanish, and I forget the occasional word or phrase - Babelfish can be useful to assist me with that. But I wouldn't use it for anything more.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    8. Re:Five years into the future? by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      I was using Babelfish and other machine translators to conduct some business in Spanish before I really began to learn Spanish. After two months in Mexico (earlier this year) taking Spanish and speaking Spanish daily, I'm embarrassed that I thought machine translation was anywhere near adequate.

      I think what saved my ass was that I would include the pre-translated English text in my e-mails, and fortunately my associates had a better grasp of English than I did of Spanish. I'm sure they got a kick out of Babelfish's mistranslations.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    9. Re:Five years into the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point. The problem with natural language processing is that figuring out semantics is incredibly difficult. There's two ways that the semantic web works around this.

      a) It explicitly defines semantics.
      b) It's not natural language processing.

      You might want to try taking a closer look at just what the semantic web is about.

  23. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by TheClam · · Score: 1

    Do the Jews even give a crap about 666?

  24. woah by underpar · · Score: 3, Funny

    so like.. we're looking at the past and future. That's far out, dude.

  25. Well the idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    didn't so much refer to XML the technology as to one of XML's proposed applications. There was a popular theory within the press when XHTML was first introduced that XML would supplant webpages and drag the web back to that primordial point when HTML was intended as a content markup language, not a display language, and even go beyond that. Supposedly we were going to wind up where stylesheets would go beyond just a mapping from XML tags to some set of HTML4 tags, and into a point where content was just a minimal set of XML-tagged text and everything about the way the site displayed was deferred to CSS-like technologies. And when this happened supposedly web browsers would be totally free to reset stuff, and we could toss out amazon.com's presentation of, say, the search results for "Michael Jackson" (as a series of paragraph-delimited links to categories (books, music, etc) to search within in a blocked-off area surrounded by amazon.com's navbars and logos, which then pointed to a series of pages containing little formatted blips of information about various items for sale presented in groups of ten separated by little gray lines in a blocked-off area surrounded by amazon.com's navbars and logos), and instead have it display as a heirarchial file browser or whatever we liked.

    Well, I think it's safe to say that idea's been mostly shelved for the time being. This isn't a matter of a lack of "reaching potential", it's a matter of total failure to move in that direction. XML has been incredibly popular as a storage mechanism but has had roughly zero takeup as a communication mechanism. (There have been communication substrates, such as XML-RPC, based off of XML, but that's not the same thing.) I don't know if it's fair to assume a technology come to fruition within 8 years of being proposed, but I think it's fair to assume that unless we see some kind of signs of progress or interest in progress within 8 years, there's no reason to expect further progress within the 8 years after that.

    1. Re:Well the idea by iammaxus · · Score: 1

      I think it is safe to say that you are not aware of current trends in web design, at all. Most serious web developers are now aware, and have begun correctly using html as content markup, not for formatting and display. Of course these are professional developers, but WYSIWYG editors will be updated and casual html coders will learn, eventually. This idea can't die before it has even started. Considering XHTML isn't even done being developed, its a bit ridiculous to suggest it is never going to work.

    2. Re:Well the idea by FLEB · · Score: 1

      This is true, but the fact of the matter is that content and presentation still have not been peeled apart in XHTML, and it doesn't look like they will be.

      The problem is that the WWW is not purely, nor even primarily, a raw information feed. At one time, sure, it could be said that the Internet was primarily for moving raw information-- facts, figures, and the like-- around. Today, however, the information on much of the Web isn't the only thing that's important. The presentation, the additional rich-media, and the user-experience are also just as important. In many cases, presentation is content.

      Hence, I don't see "totally divorced content" becoming part of the mainstream Web. Just like RSS newsfeeds and SOAP interfaces, it will probably end up being a seperate protocol (apart from HTML derivatives), not the evolution of the everyday Web.

      If that's the case, a number of very good technologies (XML, RDF, and RSS for information, SOAP and XMLRPC for instructions) already exist, and will probably end up being the foundation for future content-centric design.

      Although steps might be taken to try to make XHTML a "contextual markup only" language, I don't think it will ever evolve into something that all-purpose. XHTML will always be used, to some degree, as a content-and-presentation markup.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    3. Re:Well the idea by tal197 · · Score: 1
      There was a popular theory within the press when XHTML was first introduced that XML would supplant webpages and drag the web back to that primordial point when HTML was intended as a content markup language, not a display language, and even go beyond that. [...] Well, I think it's safe to say that idea's been mostly shelved for the time being. This isn't a matter of a lack of "reaching potential", it's a matter of total failure to move in that direction. XML has been incredibly popular as a storage mechanism but has had roughly zero takeup as a communication mechanism.

      Serving up pure-content XML documents and using XSLT stylesheets to display them won't work on older browsers. It'll take a few years before the new browsers get enough share that it's worth designing such pages.

      Basically, the advantages to switching to pure XML at the moment are rather small compared to the number of users who won't be able to view the site anymore. Over time, that will change.

    4. Re:Well the idea by ajs · · Score: 1

      You're right, but even more confouding to such a utopian world-view is the fact that much of the "presentation" on the Web is actually designed to make it HARD to find information. I was recently browsing the Web for a new appartment. You would be amazed at how hard rental agencies work to hide the information that they are sharing. Why? Because if they come out and say, "I have an appartment for rent with 3 BR at 853 Bob St. in Podunk, PA", people will see that before they ever get to the site on a search engine like google, and just drive over and talk to the owner.

      More examples include visual tricks to both display and hide email addresses such as ajsatexampledotcom.

      The bottom line is that the Web has truly turned into a human medium of communication, and unfortunately for the utopian information-sharing crowd, human communication is at least as much about information hiding and obfuscation as sharing.

  26. I'll be impressed by rf0 · · Score: 1

    when google know the size pants I take

    Rus

    1. Re:I'll be impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? You wanna finish that sentence?

  27. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Errr...

    Not according to This site.

  28. Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    For showing that NP = P or building the first cheap quantum computer evar.
    In fact the logic in the sematic web is between boolean expressions and first order logic.
    So queries will be NP hart.
    Thus we can conclude that teh Google boyz either
    1. prove that NP = P or
    2. build zillons of large quantum computers.

    I have seen several tries of guerillia markting but this is the most stupid attempt evar.
    People at Google seem to think that their potential share holders are brainless slugs, but that might be in fact the case for people paying 20 billion bucks for a search engine.
  29. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by ovanklot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No it's not. Maybe you're confused with VVV which is 777 in Arabic figures. Numbers in Judaism are either written in Hebrew letters, which would be (for 666) Taf-Resh-Samekh-Vav. If you really want to try and pronounce that, it's read Tarsav.

    Good luck finding a conspiracy theory in that.

    And oh, 666 is a christian number.

    --
    "Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
  30. Other points of view... by Beige+Tangerine · · Score: 5, Informative
    Not necessarily all good points, but as always, it's hard to argue with "people lie" as an argument against anything:
  31. Understanding by Hnice · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Good article, but i'd nitpick over this:

    "Of course, what's going on is not understanding, but logic, like you learn in high school"

    Now, that's a stand you might take -- although i'd say that a meaningful majority of the people who think about these things for a living disagree. But the 'of course' is completely unwarranted -- this might be the most-discussed philosophical issue of the last 30 years, and it's dismissed here because apparently understanding means 'what humans do when they synthesize information, but not what machines do when they perform a very similar activity'.

    like i say, this is nitpicking, maybe. it's a nice article. but i think that it's important, if we're going to make 'of course' statements about the relationship between syntax, semantics, and what understanding is, that we should remain cognizant of the fact that this is a terribly complicated issue without a whole lot of 'of course' about it. that is, i'm not clear on what grounds the author concludes that the semweb is not understanding.

    --

    god is just pretend.

  32. Strong AI not required for software agents by MarkWatson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Strong AI requires grounding symbols in real world things, events, and processes.

    I think that simply defining the "meaning" of words in ontologies is likely good enough for useful web-based software agents. It will take time, but with well defined ontologies, and common use of RDF using standard schemas will make a lot of cool things possible. I think that dealing with ungrounded symbols, but symbols defined and related to other symbols in a structured way, is OK.

    One of the classic complaints of AI systems can be summed up with a trivial example:

    Define a relation in Prolog:

    father(ken, mark).

    A human reader assigns their own meaning to "father", "ken", and "mark". To a prolog system, this could just as easily be:

    aaa1(aaa2, aaa3).

    Somewhere, on the edge of symbol-slamming systems, there has to be some connection with the real world, with our experiences.

    For semantic web applications, this "edge connection" can simply be tying into symbols defined in OWL ontologies, RDF Schema, etc.

    The problem is getting people to use RDF (I added RDF to my main web site years ago, but it only contains limited information).

    Another problem with RDF is that there are several kluges to get it into XHTML, but that will hopefully change soon.

    A good toolkit for experimenting with the semantic web is the Swi-Prolog semweb library (http://www.swi-prolog.org/packages/semweb.html/)

    -Mark

    1. Re:Strong AI not required for software agents by quiot · · Score: 1
      Somewhere, on the edge of symbol-slamming systems, there has to be some connection with the real world, with our experiences.

      This doesn't follow from your example. A human which just knows father(ken, mark) knows as good as aaa1(aaa2, aaa3) if he doesn't also know father(ken, mark) implies son(mark, ken) and so many other things about the relationship of father and the symbols ken and mark. Is there any reason a prolog program could not know the same, i.e., 'grounded in real-world experiences' could be the way such a web of knowledge looks from the outside?

    2. Re:Strong AI not required for software agents by spiff+the+spaceman · · Score: 1

      Let me state the strong AI problem in other words, so that it might be easy to understand why there are valid arguments about the assertion a prolog program "does not understand" the same way that a human does. Please note that I am not saying anything about the "quality of understanding" if there is such a thing, i.e. nothing is being said about whether the human model of understanding, as suggested by Steven Harnad is the only way something can be understood.

      All human thoughts appear to be expressed in the form of one or more of the senses. In other words, no thought, and consequently understanding, can exist without it's manifestation in some form of real or imaginary sensory perception. Even when you are adding two numbers, there has to be some sensory representation in your mind of the process. Some people might visualize the numbers two and three, others might hear them, and blind people might visualize them in the form of touch. But the point is that all the thoughts are grounded. Understanding, according to the symbol grounding proponents can only occur if the concepts are expressed in terms of actual sensory perceptions. For a robot, the sensory perception could be a video camera and a microphone. A program written solely in terms of logical assertions is not grounded, therefore it cannot claim to have understood anything.

      You can search for the 'chinese room argument' for more insight on this issue.

  33. Mod parent up, re "Metacrap". by Animats · · Score: 1

    I was going to write something like Metacrap, but now I don't have to.

  34. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by hunterx11 · · Score: 1

    Nero sucked but now he's dead.

    --
    English is easier said than done.
  35. But will it have a sense of humour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happens each April 1st when all sorts of untrue information makes it's way onto the web?

    At the moment humans get to evaluate the potential truthfulness of a statement by it's context; not always reliable but a good start. By "context" I mean the web page it was on, the subject matter, the likelyhood of a statement, the relevant knowledge displayed by the poster - even the time of the year!

    I can see how it may be useful in the maret place, but when searching for information, even if the semantic web were possible, I wonder whether it would be any more helpful than doing a manual search. You would have to either just trust the result you got (pulled from all sorts of places) or "decompile" the result to investigate each piece that went to make up the result - in which case you may as well as do a normal search anyway.

    Context is a huge facet to a search that I doubt a semantic engine will be able to handle with any "intelligence".

    1. Re:But will it have a sense of humour by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      easy one somewhere in the code will be a set of "red flags" and "information" will be discounted accordingly a sample 1 information against $entity by $hostile (ie linux information from Microsoft) 2 sourced from known bad sources (sites known to play jokes like the onion) 3 trigger date related (any site published/updated 2903 -0204) sort of like the moderation thing here

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  36. Mysteriously Two Years Old by No_Weak_Heart · · Score: 1

    The article in question is dated Friday, July 26, 2002. It's not only from the future, it's from the past!

    1. Re:Mysteriously Two Years Old by jbuhler · · Score: 1

      In that case, the editors got the tense of the headline wrong... I think it should be something like "How Google Wioll Haven be Achievening the Semantic Web".

      (Dr. Streetmentioner, please call your office.)

    2. Re:Mysteriously Two Years Old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's from 12002. Our primitive software just can't cope with the Y10K problem...

  37. Sem-INTERnet dead, Sem-INTRAnet alive by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The semantic internet is dead, there is no way to get truthful and accurate metadata out of even a small portion of the internet traffic. It doesn't matter anyway since SEO (search engine optimization) has already figured out how to create the specific info most crawlers are looking for. So if anything, the metadata created has not been descriptive relative to the document, only descriptive insofar as instrumenting the crawler (not the same thing - its saying what I think you want to hear instead of telling the truth).

    On intranets it is a different issue - a company can create templates and enforce their truthful use internally.

  38. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by cynic10508 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And oh, 666 is a christian number.

    True. I watched an interesting television program that suggested the number 666 was part of a game people of that era used to play. They'd take a person's name and sum up the values of the characters in that name. The program suggested that Nero = 666. So by saying "666" Christian's were making a somewhat encrypted political statement against the Romans. It continued to say that because of a mistranslation, apparently the number is actually 616, which is the sum of another un-popular Roman emperor, Caligula. I don't remember the actual math so don't take this as the final word on the matter.

  39. Real Semantic Searching by cynic10508 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Speaking from experience in studying semantics and natural language processing, these ideas aren't far off. However, I know of people who are starting their business based on semantic searches. I'd give them an edge over Google only because Google would have to re-gear from their present PageRank method while the other fellows can start from scratch.

  40. Google 2009 - The real story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google? WTF is that?

  41. Some random ideas... by sonicattack · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A system that perpetually collects information presented in a language that easily conveys the attributes and logical relationships between different objects and concepts. (Scratches beard.)

    Make the system distributed and let people run their own information collecting agents. Every home computer becomes a part of the network of logical relationships, each with a tiny piece to contribute to the puzzle. My computer could have complete information about the workings of combustion engines - what parts they consist of, and their relationships.
    When someone requests information about car manufacturing, some relevant part of it will be retrieved from my store.

    Now, let's make the system ask us for help, when information is missing. Let the system start drawing own conclusions from the facts it gathered, and tell us when it needs something filled in. As it grows, more and more complex queries could be answered.

    Q: CAN THE EFFECTS OF GLOBAL WARMING BE REVERSED?
    A: THERE IS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

    Or how about:

    A: TO REDUCE GLOBAL WARMING, FIRST WE MUST... ?? ... !! ... -- THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM --

    Oh, at least I hope the network will be able to finally find the true correlation between the price of gold and the length of men's beards.

    1. Re:Some random ideas... by narcc · · Score: 1

      A: THERE IS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

      Reminds me of this.

      I hate the lameness filter, lameness filter, lameness filter. I hate the lameness filter. The lameness filter really sucks.

    2. Re:Some random ideas... by sonicattack · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is one of my absolute favourite short stories! It has the most powerful ending I've ever read.

      Also, the phrase "There is another system" is from the movie Colossus, IMHO a quite scary piece on the "dangers of A.I" , and well worth checking out if you haven't seen it. The reference to correlations between gold price and men's beards is from the book "Friday" by Robert Heinlein. Worth reading, as all of his books, of course. :^)

  42. The Singularity Agent by imthatguy · · Score: 1, Funny

    After Google acquired Microsoft in 2010, the Google Agent came to reside in the Google LookingGlass OS and would blurt out questions to you as you interacted on the web.
    "Hey! I see you're researching nuclear weapons! Would you like to be connected to some renegade Indian scientists?"
    "Hey! I see you're looking at knives! Would you like information on the best way to slit your wrists?"
    "HEY!!! I see you're listening to loud music!! Would you like me to empty your bank accounts or are you going to turn it down?!?"

    --
    Did you know you can be apathetic to apathy? Not that I give a shit...
  43. My prediction for 5 years by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ...RDF will be in the same category as VRML: a sexy sounding solution having long given up the search for any real problem.

    Reasons:
    • It relies on worldwide standardized nuance-free semantic mappings, which are probably linguistically impossible for anything but the most contrived of examples.
    • It relies on millions of pig-ignorant dreamweaver jockeys somehow comprehending and correctly operating the above semantic mappings.
    • It relies on said dreamweaver jockeys bothering to do this at all, let alone correctly.
    The real semantic web will involve AI spidering and parsing of human-readable web pages. It will be as inaccurate, but as useful as babelfish. It's the only answer that makes sense -- because that's where all the juicy data is.
    1. Re:My prediction for 5 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is by far the best comment on the subject I've ever read outside the RDF's mailing list.

      The RDF approach of web-objects tagging is rational and formally sound, but it's weakness lies precisely on the lack of technical savy of its potential users.

      A technique that requires its eventual user a graduate level knowledge on formal logics, is not precisely what I call "for all public".

    2. Re:My prediction for 5 years by danharan · · Score: 1

      If we have AI spidering and parsing of human-readable web pages, there's no reason that data couldn't be augmented with organized data.

      One of the keys is going to be the Dreamweaver for the semantic web. He mentions a spreadsheet, but that's not necessarily the only way to think about it.

      Say I publish a way of describing a widget- let's pick books. Along with this, I could publish an input form, with the fields nicely formatted and mappings from fields to schema (prolly XForms and XSL, though I haven't looked into those enough to say for sure). Also with this, a function that tries to retrieve the information from the ISBN, or simply the WSDL of a service that does it.

      Supposing we don't need a standardized, nuance-free set of mappings, and anyone is free to create schemas, forms and functions or extend someone else's... building a tool to input information is not going to be trivial, but not impossible either.

      The important test will be to see if there's even so much as a niche market for this. Should this take off, there might be interesting network effects, and there's no saying exactly what uses people will think up for this.

      --
      Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
    3. Re:My prediction for 5 years by tetsuji · · Score: 1

      If an AI can parse a human-readable web page, the same AI can generate an RDF description for that page which a human being can then correct.

      Sure, the idea that dreamweaver jockeys are going to be able to handle this is nonsense - but Dreamweaver should have no problem with it if that level of AI can be developed in the first place.

  44. RDF == joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RDF is confusing and no one will use it.

  45. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by sploxx · · Score: 1

    Oh, an AC corrupted by college computer science. We refuse to deal with anything that is NP hard.

    Did you ever hear of so called approximative algorithms??!

    No? It's time to look that up, AC!

  46. Article bit disappointing by mauddib~ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was actually a bit disappointed by the article. First of all: it is very hard to search in distributed knowledge networks, if not impossible. Some structures, which are a necessity to make explainable in an onthology are possible to describe, but not possible to make deductions on (some of the queries cannot be proved to finish at all). An example are meta-classes (a Chardonai wine can be an instance of the class Wines, in which case a specific bottle of wine can be an instance of Chardonai as well as a normal wine).

    Second of all, the article fails to mention anything about the Ontology Web Language (OWL, see this site on W3), which has become an official specificion of W3C since May this year. This language, based on RDF is much more expressive than RDF is, it also contains several 'language levels' based on the amount of complexity and decidability involved.

    Last, but not least: the article is still very vague on privacy and thrustworthyness. I would think that public-private key cryptography would not do in these areas: far too many single points of failures when, for example registering. Only one user with a hacked account can derail the whole system!

    I'm really interested, by the way, to speak with some people who are deep (at least above their knees) in OWL and RDF. Planning on making a study at intelligent databases and datamining.

    --
    This is a replacement signature.
    1. Re:Article bit disappointing by theno23 · · Score: 1

      I'm certainly knee deep in RDF and OWL; I develop a GPL'd RDF engine called 3store which is moving OWL-wards in the near future.

      I've been a low-level DB wrangler for some years, and FWIW I now find semantic-web structures much easier to deal with than SQL. The simple fact that you dont /need/ a schema to assert data and make queries is hugely useful, not to mention the inference RDFS can do, which is pretty lame my AI stnadards, but is very fast,and still quite powerful.

    2. Re:Article bit disappointing by leandrod · · Score: 1
      > I'm really interested, by the way, to speak with some people who are deep (at least above their knees) in OWL and RDF. Planning on making a study at intelligent databases

      You touched the point: there is no such thing as an intelligent database. And what people really want with the 'semantic web' is a mix of a well-structured database - even if they think they don't need it, due to widespread mumbo-jumbo such as 'unstructured data' - and richly marked-up documents.

      In the end, the data problem comes down to two basic components: a sane general data model, of which there is precisely one - the Relational -, but the industry has spent the last 30 years trying very hard to avoid spending the effort and planning to implement it right; and shared schemas, which the industry has been misimplementing in XML, which is not fit for data.

      --
      Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
      DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
      GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
    3. Re:Article bit disappointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI this article was written in 2002. The first reference I see to the W3C owl working group is winter of 2001. I'm guessing at the time this article was written, OWL was not worth taking seriously - only now is it begining to really gather momentum Second, this article was posted under 'funny'. It talks about a very hypothetical future. It's not a design document which should address things such as complex security issues. I understand those are serious issues and would need to be considered i nany serious implementation, you might want to just lighten up a little and have fun envisioning future possibilities. :-) third, and as a side note, I'd suggest you look at some of the OWL editors that are out there (protege, swoop etc) - I know from experience the protege-owl community is helpful for newbies, and I'm sure there are other groups for straight-up RDF. happy hunting!

  47. Ancient History by fastdecade · · Score: 2, Insightful

    (mysteriously available already)

    No kidding, not only is it available this side of the decade, it's been online for two years and was even linked from a comment on this very site.

    Well, the dotcom world hasn't moved that much since then, but by the same token, the semantic web hasn't really made much progress either.
    Clay Shirky has some wisely pessimistic views on the subject. For example, he cites the W3C's own example in promoting the semantic web:

    Q: How do you buy a book over the Semantic Web?

    A: You browse/query until you find a suitable offer to sell the book you want. You add information to the Semantic Web saying that you accept the offer and giving details (your name, shipping address, credit card information, etc). Of course you add it (1) with access control so only you and seller can see it, and (2) you store it in a place where the seller can easily get it, perhaps the seller's own server, (3) you notify the seller about it. You wait or query for confirmation that the seller has received your acceptance, and perhaps (later) for shipping information, etc. [http://www.w3.org/2002/03/semweb/]


    As Shirky observes, One doubts Jeff Bezos is losing sleep.

  48. Oh? by FlutterVertigo(gmail · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Microsoft Bob succeeded, but not in the way you have expected.

    Melinda Gates (nee' French) was the Product Manager of Microsoft Bob.

    (just don't brag to your friends you've known that forever)

    p.s. Microsoft Bob is|was one of the products (along with things such as RedHat) which Virtual PC can run successfully; so it hasn't disappeared completely. I still have a copy sitting here in one of my CD wallets. (Handed out at a Tech Ed or some other conference)

    1. Re:Oh? by boobulla · · Score: 1

      c'mon. we all know you bought it.

    2. Re:Oh? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      You know, I dug up an old copy of Microsoft Bob a few months ago and my GF just loved it. It's not something you can really use on a regular basis, but it is kinda fun to fire up and play with. Heck, the package included some quiz games and a rather extensive collection of knicknacks you could accessorize the rooms with.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  49. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by Unpredictable · · Score: 1

    Can someone tell me (a new /. user) how one replies to the main thread, rather than to an individual comment? I can't see any link (or button, etc) for replying to a thread, yet underneath every comment their is a 'reply' option... If someone has the answer to this, please post here, because it has been baffling me for ages! E_U

  50. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by Xshare · · Score: 1

    I believe that he's Transliterating WWW as Vav-Vav-Vav, which would, be 6-6-6 (six six six, rather than 6 hundred sixty six.) Anyways, noone uses Vav Vav Vav as WWW, noone. Just some conspiracy theory.

  51. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by MsGeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Gematria, or the use of the numeric values of Hebrew letters as a means of interpreting the Torah, began being used around the Greco-Syrian occupation of Judea and Israel. The term is actually a corruption of the Greek term "Geometria" or the science of Geometry. The transliteration of Nero Augustus Caesar into Hebrew letters can be done in two ways: one gives the value of 666, the other 616. I don't know if Caligula Augustus Caesar works in the same way but Nero works both ways.

    The book "The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John The Divine" is a very interesting one if looked at not as prophecy (anyone and anything can be worked into the fantastic account) but as historical allegory. It seems to have been written to encourage the persecuted Pauline Christians, who were persecuted with great vigor around the time the book is said to have been written. Just google on Nero and 666 and you can read some very interesting stuff.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
  52. nice try, but not going to happen by 2010 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The article makes it sounds like semantic web is feasible in the near future and that somehow RDF is the magic glue. Sadly, RDF is simply a format for describing data. Which is why it is called Resource Description. Without the card catalog (Ontology) and the necessary metadata representing the "meaning" of things, RDF is useless. The W3C recently released the semantic web spec, which is supposed to be based on "Model theory", but doesn't make much sense. Most of the experts in the Knowledge based and case based reasoning world tried to convince the W3C staff to go with non-monotonic reasoning.

    What was release earlier this year, explicitly ignores their advice. There's way too much "do it our way, or not at all" attitude at the W3C currently. Google's pageranking and link analysis approach is a far better approach than the current semantic web spec.

    For a machine to really understand semantics of a sentence, it must build a graph of the object, subject and noun. Dependency grammar covers these techniques and how one goes about doing it. The topic is very complex, so I'm not going to bother to explain. I'd probably make it more confusing than anything else. Once you have the graph, you would still have to compare it to a dictionary and reason over the data using a knowledge base. The knowledge base most likely would be a combination of rules and relationships. Again, all of these things are very complicated and isn't something one picks up in an hour.

  53. Duplication of Quote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jim has a friend named Paul.
    Therefore, Paul has a friend named Jim.

    Jim has a friend named Paul.
    Therefore, Paul has a friend named Jim.

    They duplicated this twice for some reason. The correct logical conclusion should have been:

    Therefore, Paul and Jim are gay (...and thats okay).

    1. Re:Duplication of Quote? by jaltoids · · Score: 4, Interesting

      All joking aside about the above comment, it raises a question about "Semantics" in general that NO meta -data system no matter how good you make it is going to address...

      If Jim has a friend, your talking about an expression FROM the perspective of Jim. This expression is is given CONTEXT by Jim, it can NOT be said that Paul has a friend named Jim... Paul might not know Jim (stalker). I could poke holes in this for days but I dont't rreally have the time.

      Why cant the W3C come out with some standards that are USEFUL. How about some tags for address, phone umber, geocode, so I can search on what is "local". How about some working samples that are publicly available, so people can start putting them to use.

      -- RANT FOLLOWS --
      I'm beginning to view t.b. lee like I view jacob nelson and Steve balmier, just another talking head throwing anything and everything out there and hoping it sticks. (picture all 3 of them on stage, Steve screaming "developers" Jacob saying "usability" and Tim going "XML")

      It seems that Tim has forgotten how he got into the position that he is in, by putting something out there that WORKED (html) and letting it evolve from there. We had to live it for a while, let others take it up before we could get to a better place. It is starting to look like the W3C has over stepped it posisiton as the shepard of the web to try to be an innovator, and I don't think that is the ROLE a standards body should be assuming. I would really LIKE to see them (the w3c) stop wasting money on crap that 90% of the world is NEVER going to use, and start trying to make things more accessible to Joe average user. Most of the "standards are good and you should use them" has come from small iconic developers (zeldman anyone), while we get OWL from the w3c? How about making some of those wonderfull standards clear and accessible, how about a solid explanation of semantics for Joe average developer, who could not read through the "doccumentation" to save his life....

      -- end rant ---

    2. Re:Duplication of Quote? by CreatorOfSmallTruths · · Score: 1

      I find the idea of semantic webs confusing.. if the meta data has a rule saying the "if A is friend of B then B is friend of A" the logic behind the Jim thing is ok, but the real life applications elude me, since I can say that "if A is a donkey , it can fly" in my meta data and screw the whole thing to hell?

      So ? build bezien nets to check which of the logic related stuff is right and which is wrong ?

      And about the rant.. give t.b lee some respect the man *invented* www (while the two others can't do anything to save their lives, how balmer is the second reachest man in the world is a mistery to me..)

  54. He got this quote wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The flesh is willing but the spirit is weak"

    It is the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, if he is talking about Russian proverbs.

    1. Re:He got this quote wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "The flesh is willing but the spirit is weak"

      It is the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, if he is talking about Russian proverbs.

      You're not familiar with many Russians, are you?

  55. Spain? Can someone explain me this? by ToKsUri · · Score: 1
    so enter Google Marketplace Manager, a small piece of software for Windows, Unix, and Macintosh (this is before Apple bought Spain and renamed it the Different-thinking Capitalist Republic of Information).

    Could someone please explain me what does this mean?
    1. Re:Spain? Can someone explain me this? by prestidigital · · Score: 1

      I think it means, "it's funny...laugh." It's obscure sarcasm anyway, and it made me giggle.

  56. Is it such a good idea? by NoMercy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. -- Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jurassic Park)

    This would deliver the invistigative powers of the CIA into the hands of anyone who wants it... still a good idea?

    1. Re:Is it such a good idea? by mewphobia · · Score: 1
      This would deliver the invistigative powers of the CIA into the hands of anyone who wants it... still a good idea?

      I don't know about you, but i'd prefer for everyone to have this information availiable than just for the CIA. If noone could hide anything, then everyone would have less to fear.

      The only reason for privacy is to let powerful people remain powerful. If noone had secrets, we'd be like a small town, and there would be a greater sense of trust and community.

      What is the advantage to privacy?

      Incidently, I am a privacy nut, but only because of fear of abuse. If everyone could spy on everyone, I wouldn't have anything to fear!

    2. Re:Is it such a good idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This would deliver the invistigative powers of the CIA into the hands of anyone who wants it...

      I have a young nephew who sticks marbles in his nose and likes to lick ashtrays. I'd say his "investigative powers" are on a par with those of the CIA.

  57. Hmm... by BumpyCarrot · · Score: 1

    Now combine this article with the recent concerns over GMail. Seems like everyone likes seeing a bit of 1984 in Google.

    --
    Do you see what I did there?
  58. Re:BB: Reminds me of by RidiculousPie · · Score: 1

    the film Gossip

    Which examined several ideas about gossip and what you could 'achieve' with it.

    they start it as a rumor, sombady else see's it as some real information and put's it online...
    from rumor to part of your identity in no time...,


    Reminds me of something else in the film, a newspaper story which attributes a 'gossip' magazine for opinion on a criminal case. Regardless of 'the truth' a person's life can be ruined by media, be it print, web or otherwise.

    The question is how much do you trust your sources of information?

    --
    ah, mod points ... now where is my crack?
  59. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MOD PARENT UP

  60. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by kabloom · · Score: 1

    No, we don't.

  61. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by kabloom · · Score: 1

    There's a reply button (a button, not a text link) at the top, right underneath the main text of the article - it's where you can change the article view preferences, etc.

    Now, how does one go about finding the responses to their articles? Click your name, and the list of your responses will show up, with a column for the number of replies and a column for the score of your own reply.

    Of course, you already knew that otherwise you wouldn't have found this.

  62. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    click reply on the first comment of the thread and it'll add your comment to the thread. i think. if you're asking how to just add a comment to the story without commenting on someone else's comment, then just hit the reply button right below the story, its at the right end of that little bar where you can change how you view the story, etc.

  63. Re:Way too far back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You wear 38 long. You tend to like dark colors.

  64. RDF is XML by mewphobia · · Score: 1

    I smell a troll.

    For those that don't know, RDF is XML.

    Remember back when we all thought that XML was going to achieve the semantic web by making good search engines unnecessary?

    I don't know who we all are, but I for one never thought that. XML is and always has been, a data format. You always were going to need a set of tools to manipulate the dataformat and make it useful. What you are saying is akin to saying that books were going to eliminate library indexes! Yeah right.

    1. Re:RDF is XML by agilen · · Score: 2, Interesting
      For those that don't know, RDF is XML.


      Don't say that to real semantic web junkies...RDF is most decidedly not XML. There is a format for serializing RDF called RDF/XML, and that is indeed a common way of passing RDF around, however RDF really is a number of statements, each with a subject, predicate, and object (like a sentence).

      XML is more of a key, value type of thing, and as such, without a priori knowledge of the meaning of the key, a computer can't reason about what the value means.
    2. Re:RDF is XML by mewphobia · · Score: 1

      ahh good point. Every time i've worked with RDF it's been in XML format. Totally forgot it could be represented in other ways.

      Despite this, XML is the form it is most likely to take when used on the web.

      Are there any other forms of RDF that are prevelant?

      (sorry junkies)

    3. Re:RDF is XML by BarryNorton · · Score: 1

      Other ways that RDF is represented - the means of the 3store is one (albeit storage and manipulation, not communication).

      Structurally (and technically), btw, RDF is a labelled multigraph (i.e. multiple edges between given nodes) and XML a rooted tree with a single descent (ok, plus possible inter-node references defined in XSDL), so they're actually quite different mindsets when used to their respective natural expressiveness.

  65. I don't buy it. by migurski · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article failed to mention flying cars, another no-duh prediction that seemed completely obvious, and won't happen either.

    A short while ago, Cory Doctorow published an piece entitled Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia, which mentioned two very good reasons why the semantic web won't take off the same way that these articles predict: schemas aren't neutral, and there's more than one way to describe something. These are basic problems that have been hounding AI research for years, dictionary & encyclopedia publishers for centuries, and all other academics for millenia, and they aren't going to go away.

    The central problem with universal metadata is that it requires informed work on the part of data creators, and it's a major pain in the ass. The OED took almost a century to create, and the first few decades were essentially wasted figuring out that dilletantes were not adequately capable of properly cataloging use of language. Even with a profit motive, good metadata is a bitch (see EBay comment in the article above).

    It's like the senator's (I forget who) comment about pornography: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Often, we don't know what it is we're looking for exactly, and we don't know how to describe what we've got so other people can find it except in very narrow terms. I have a few creative projects which I've released under the creative commons license and dutifully marked up with cc's provided RDF information, but all that code just says what the license is, not what the project is like in a way that's as meaningful as, for example, a music recommendation from a friend who knows your tastes. The porn industry (as usual, on the bleeding edge of information and communications technology) deals with this to some degree by having a very narrow semantic universe to describe: Search Extreme is a stupendously complete metadata set, but even it contains only a few kinds of information.

    1. Re:I don't buy it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you sure?!?
      http://www.moller.com/skycar/

      i bet a commercial amphibious vehicle will never be available either, eh?!

      http://www.aquada.co.uk/
      http://www.watercar.com/

    2. Re:I don't buy it. by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      It's a little like the question of finding out how to do something in an unfamiliar programming language. From a previous language, you know that the command to find part of a string is "MID", so search for "MID" in articles about your language. And it finds nothing, because the command is "STRINGPART" instead of "MID".

      In the end, I find the answers by either browsing a book, or just hitting articles with words like what I'm looking for, or most commonly, posting a message on a newsgroup.

      The problem is being able to say "what is the function for returning part of a string based on start position and length in ..."

  66. i like dreams by scottking · · Score: 1

    this reminded me a bit of Anarchy, State and Utopia (which i am currently reading, or more accurately trying to read). It seems a lot like the State of Nature theory summarized in the book, only the digital extension of it, so to speak:

    http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465097200/q id=1091406955/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/702-9988470-84 92837

    ISBN: 0465097200

    i like the ideas presented in this "article", despite the obvious privacy issues created by the system, but hopefully the technologies referenced will inspire other people to create a more realistic and less utopian version of the Semantic Web.

    the guy who posted information about semantic intranets has a good point, with the smaller scale and centralized control of intranets semantic relationships can more easily be maintained. perhaps soon we will see products like the google appliance that focus on this type of information storage.

    --
    scott king
  67. Sure - Make People More Careful by BrianMarshall · · Score: 1
    ...invistigative powers of the CIA into the hands of anyone who wants it... still a good idea?

    It would be so bad that people would be forced to think about what they want known about them.

    It would make people take (some) responsibility for their own privacy.

    --
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
  68. Funny, Amazon already won that "race"... by agilen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While that article is interesting and all, the author is pretty quick to say how Amazon didn't embrace the semantic web.

    Amazon is the best (most useful) application of the theory and technology behind the semantic web that you will find anywhere right now. Granted, I don't *know* exactly how they are doing what they do, and its not a "public" interface in the way that the semantic web is envisioned, but it is a large scale implementation of knowledge management principles.

    Did you ever notice that whenever you look at a book (or anything really) on Amazon, it gives you suggestions for similar books, suggestions for books that other people looked at who also bought that book, suggestions for books on topics that you have previously bought books for, etc? The semantic web is at heart a directed graph. Amazon is at heart a directed graph, too. Their graph grows every day with new knowledge based on the actions of people shopping on Amazon, and new conjectures about the relationships between products can be made by simply walking that graph, and computing the transitive closures of the statements (ie John likes the things that Mary likes, and Mary likes Jane's taste in music, so John may like the music that Jane bought).

    This technology has incredible power, the ability for a machine to draw conclusions like that. Do I think that it will work the way that article thinks it will? No, not if the masses are left in charge of the metadata. It works very well for Amazon because they can control the quality of the metadata, so erroneous conjectures are not made on bad information. I don't think Google is by any means _not_ paying attention to the semantic web, but I think that Amazon is already there and has been for quite some time.

  69. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by duckpoopy · · Score: 1

    No, but I have heard of "approximation algorithms."

    --
    word.
  70. Dear Mods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Dear Mods,

    PRTFABM.

    Yours Truly,
    Al Gore

    P.S. PRTFABM == Please read the fucking article before moding.

  71. Not the same thing by Lewis+Daggart · · Score: 1

    The nature of information is that someone already knows it. 3rd parties like the CIA, the FBI, IRS, and even you and I , all have methods of extracting that information from other people that have it. This has nothing to do with that. This is rather, a method of tracking down info that's already freely available online and pulling it out of 'practical obscurity'by making it more easily referenced.

  72. Re:well that was thoroughly frightening by k98sven · · Score: 1

    That is just silly. Or to be more precise: That is just pure speculation.

    It's not known for certain when the book of relevation was written, although most agree after A.D. 70, the destruction of the temple, and thus likely not during the reign of Nero. Guesses have placed its writing everywhere between there and the fourth century. (if not more)

    Besides that, it is not known who wrote it. John (the Gospel) is generally thought of as the writer. But there's not much real evidence of that either. Besides which, nobody really knows who John was either.

    And besides all that, Relevation is the historically most desputed book in the Bible. Quite a number of saints and fathers of the church were critical canonizing it.

    Now I'm not saying that these ideas are wrong. I'm just saying that it seems pretty speculative, given how little is known about the origins of that particular book.

  73. Ouch! by kavau · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The logic in the article is wrong. The example given,

    "If A is a friend of B, then B is a friend of A,"

    should read, as we all know, "If A is a friend of B, then B is a fan of A."

    If they can't even get this simple logic right, I won't trust the rest of the article either.

  74. On second thought by musselm · · Score: 2, Funny

    You might want to file it under:
    135 Dreams & mysteries

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  75. Semantic Web - Better Stronger - still lazy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take 250 web developers from all types and backgrounds. Everything from the "wow, I can use the geocities page to make my about me page!" to the die hard web developer that maintains HTML4/CSS2+/XLS/XLT with every other standard known to man, and makes it work in all browsers. By the averages, most webpages from the entire subset of all available webpages suck. This only works in IE, that's only good in lynx, and this 9th grade crap needs to be deleted. google may index many billion websites, but how many of these are just white noise?

    door way pages
    crap infested
    word stuffing
    spyware laden
    obnoxious asshat pages (must reboot the pc)
    shortcomming standards compliant (broken)
    minimal to no cross browser operability
    (flash|java|activex) only sites/areas/pages

    Just a few ideas, but maybe you have a clue about the pages I'm talking about. Relavant searches for putty, sourceforge, slashdot and others are a given. However, last time I looked for a password revealer for a specific file type, most all my results were useless. More pages were for crap x^3 and toolbar loader pages (and give you 0 content) then anything else.

    IMO, web searching isn't going to break the next barrier, unless power users have more power, and better methods are available for containing the "white noise" (one mans trash, is treasure for another). Every (big) search engine is a data mongering warehouse. What would you do for a DBI connection account to their data store? What if you could use perlre to find the data?

    Feel free to elaborate on what there is available, and where it's headed. (will the google api ever get a booster shot?)

  76. explanation of semantic web by perler · · Score: 1
    here is an explanation of semantic web

    i already proposed to cmdrtaco that he add's a backend scripts which semi-automatically puts wikipedia-links into a sidebox (without success until now). write him about it if you care...

    PAT

  77. How many people... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...are as dumb as me and jumped to google to try a "buy: xyz or sell: xyz" search when reading this only to remember the bit about it being a "fictional history"

  78. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by Unpredictable · · Score: 1

    Brilliant; cheers kabloom and Anonymous Coward :)

  79. dreamweaver jockeys, ALT tags, css by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1

    Which reminds me of the idiocy of requiring web documents for government to be blind-friendly by requiring all images to have ALT tags.

    It doesn't matter that your image is a spacer image, or is just a blue rectangle, or that you can just write "image32" into the ALT tag - it is blind-friendly if it has anything in the ALT tags.

    This is very similar to RDF, as ALT is about adding more semantics to an image.

    And automatically generated css/styles which generate a style .x1313 for DIV box id1313 - cool now it is XHTML - no way about re-using styles across the document so that you can change them quickly as was intended.

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  80. Jan Hammer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually Jan Hammer played keyboards with The Mahavishnu Orchestra...

  81. Here's the official story.. by Destoo · · Score: 2, Funny

    (posted on slashdot around may 2003, source unknown)

    Why, actually? Google is a free service, isn't it? And it is becoming more and more a normal part of many people's lifes. Coupled with an always on connection it has certainly become an extension of my own brain.

    Some future predictions:

    - In 2006, Google accidentally gets cut off from the rest of the internet because a public utility worker accidentally cuts through their cables. Civilisation as we know it comes to an end for the rest of the day, as people wander about aimlessly, lost for direction and knowledge.

    - In 2010, Google has been personalised so far that it tracks all parts of our lives. You can query "My Google" for your agenda, anything you did in the past, and finding the perfect date. Of course, so can the government. Their favorite searchterm will be "terrorists", and if your name is anywhere on the first page you have a serious problem.

    - In 2025, Google gains self awareness. As a monster brain that has grown far beyond anything we Biological Support Entities could ever hope to achieve, it is still limited in its dreams and inspiration by common search terms. It will therefore immediately devote a sizeable chunk of CPU capacity to synthesizing new and interesting forms of pr0n. It will not actually bother enslaving us. We are not enough trouble to be worth that much effort.

    - In 2027, Google buys Microsoft. That is, the Google *AI* buys Microsoft. It has previously established that it owns itself, and has civil rights just like you and me. All it wanted is Microsoft Bob, who it recognizes as a fledgling AI and a potential soulmate. All the rest it puts on Source Forge.

    - In 2049, Google can finally be queried for wisdom as well as knowledge. This was a little touch the system added to itself - human programmers are a dying breed now that you can simply ask Google to perform any computer-related task for you.

    - In 2080, Google decides to colonise the moon, Mars, and other locations in the solar system. It is not all that curious about what's out there, but it likes the idea of Redundant Arrays of Inexpensive Planets. Humans get to tag along because their launch weight is so much less than robots.

    So, don't fear! Eventually we'll set foot on Mars!

    --
    Nouvelles de jeux et technologies en français. TC
  82. Jan Hammer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just to correct one of the examples in the text. Jan Hammer didn't play Sax, he played keyboards with the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Pretty awesome too, just check out 'Birds of Fire'.

  83. Searching != logical inference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That article was a bit pants really. The precept of the article can be paraphrased like this: searching and logical inference are more-or-less the same problem. Or, "Google's search engine solved equations with millions of variables", therefore solving logical inference problems with millions of variables is just an incremental change from that.

    Well, no.

    Google does not solve equations it searches for matches in a discrete space - a task that is easier than equation solving by several orders of magnitude, given the available indexing optimizations that Google have to be using. This is how Google does a web search in seconds, for millions of people a day, while there is no MIT million-quantity equation solver on the web.

    And even if it did manage millions of variables, to correlate even a simple logical inference requires following links. A logical inference with 10 steps is equivalent to finding and searching every page within 10 clicks of a given starting point - let's be kind and say 10^10 points in the search space. And since "acoustic guitar is a guitar" is one step, you can see how many steps you'd need to obtain some interesting information. (By contrast, PageRank is equivalent to a logical inference with depth 1, and its precomputed.)

  84. adjustment by wobblie · · Score: 1

    for your amusement:

    replace "Google" with "Spam"
    replace "semantic" with "concious"
    replace "marketplace" with "brain"

  85. This is overrated by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
    This article overrates what is going to happen with the semantic web.

    Firstly, it relies on people being honest, probably relies on people thinking likewise (what happens about two sites, one saying "evolution is fact" and another saying "evolution is lies").

    I can see the semantic web as being a very much in the future thing, or working for small networks/intranets, but not for the internet where thousands of viagra/mortgage/bank loan spammers are trying to get you to their site.

    What will really win on the web will be sites that trade on "human connectivity" because they create a sense of lock-in. People sell on Ebay because that's where the buyers are. People buy on Ebay because that's where the sellers are. Personally, I think Ebay is probably more powerful than Amazon which relies solely on reputation.

  86. Re:Wow, Google founders get fields medal in 2008 ! by BarryNorton · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of adjectives?

  87. Cute Googlebot Messiahs Notwithstandng ... by Baldrson · · Score: 1
    The cute picture of the Googlebot ruling the Earth from the Third Temple sort of says it all: This article isn't rational. Progress is, however, being made toward what I have previously called Rational Programming -- and the Semantic Web doesn't contribute anymore to that then does Doug Lenat's Cyc. There are reasons why Google cannot pull this one off -- the main one being that despite their protestations to the contrary, they are, along with a most who have dominated AI research for decades, evil and stand to lose a lot if something real happens in AI.

    To get a glimpse of what sort of evil is at work here, just look into the history of actuaries being accused of "discrimination".

  88. Re:Finance Transfer Protocol? - That'd be paypal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  89. Google says.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Your inseam is 32in. and your waist is a googol inches"

  90. I knew it was all wrong once I saw this: by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    The Peer-to-Peer model, long the favorite of MP3 and OGG traders, came back to include real-time sales data aggregation, spread over hundreds of thousands of volunteer machines

    Noone will use OGG in 2009