TiVo, MS, and the War for the Living Room

r-blo writes "Hot off his in-depth comparison of TiVo vs. Microsoft Media Center, Engadget has Thomas Hawk following up with ten things each that TiVo and Microsoft need to do to win the War for the Living Room. It won't be easy (like TiVo offering their OS as software for the PC. Not going to happen.) but I've got a feeling they might be better off listening up. Especially TiVo, since we're all rooting for them anyway."

Comments

there are not only Tivo or MS

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, have a look at VDR http://www.cadsoft.de/vdr there are many things Tivo and MS did not have implemented jet. CU H9000

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[poiuyt23]

ReplayTV has a 30 second skip ahead button and a 7 second skip back button that allows me to almost completely ignore commercials. It also doesn't have flowery stuff and commercials around the edges of the program guide.

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[Disconnect]

Gee, wonder where they got those features.. oh yeah. Tivo. (As part of it's desperate balancing act between content providers and home users, 30s skip is a "hidden feature" .. hit select-play-select-3-0-select and the jump-forward button becomes 30s skip. The instant-replay button always works.)

As far as flowery stuff and commercials, no idea. My directivos (S1 and S2) never had anything like that. Closest it came was the S1 occasionally had "yellow star" ads as a main menu selection. (Just another menu entry, you had to work to view them.)

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[severoon]

I don't want to start an RWAR here, but my dad has a ReplayTV and I have a TiVo. I have to say, the ReplayTV has a ridiculous interface. It's as if the UI designers over at replay went into the nearest big city and picked up a big fat bag of crack before they sat down to start doing the UI mock-ups.

Why is it that ReplayTV manages to include more information on every menu than TiVo, yet has more total menus and options without providing any additional functionality over TiVo? Why is it that on many of the screens (like the main menu), replay packs all of the content on the screen into one corner or a sidebar so they can use 80% of the available real estate to display a giant replay logo? Lucky for my dad he's got a 50" projo screen because anything smaller we wouldn't be able to read the text it's so small. Why are they advertising to users that already bought the unit in space that could be used for functionality? Methinks this must be the work of that giant bag of crack.

All in all the two players basically do the same thing. I just boggle every time I have to use my dad's replay at the page after page of tiny menu's, shifting graphics, useless info/built-in ads. It really makes the thing unusable. TiVo may look pretty and cutesy (which I don't prefer), but at least it's usable. I just wish TiVo would come out with different skins/themes that you could download for the UI to get rid of those childish primary color schemes and the little bouncing dude. At least the real estate for TiVo ads are restricted to bouncy dude's chest, though, and not 80% of the screen.

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[severoon]

Hey...what does this guy (writing the article) mean that it's "difficult" to get content off the TiVo? I've been trying to figure out a way to get shows off my TiVo onto my computer for the last few weeks and I've just about come to the conclusion that it's impossible.

Does anyone know of a way?

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been trying to figure out a way to get shows off my TiVo onto my computer for the last few weeks and I've just about come to the conclusion that it's impossible.

Does anyone know of a way?

Yes.

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[LionMage]

Why are they advertising to users that already bought the unit in space that could be used for functionality?

Probably because ReplayTV relies on their users upgrading. Since service is tied to the hardware and non-transferrable, this has the intentional side-benefit of shifting older ReplayTV users from the older, less profitable revenue model for the program guide service (pay once when you buy the unit, and get service for the life of the unit) to the newer, more flexible and profitable revenue model (pay less for the unit, but pay monthly for the program guide service, unless you opt to buy lifetime service up front).

Truthfully, I prefer the user interface of ReplayTV to that of TiVO. TiVO's interface is a little more friendly, but it's also very... Playskool. Also, I like the new ReplayTV units that have built-in ethernet -- no need to buy a USB-ethernet adapter as you must with the TiVO series 2. Of course, TiVO's home media option is nice, but ReplayTV at least supports progressive scan output, and with a little bit of software, you can rip the video streams off the ReplayTV and archive them on your home computer.

It burns me that the only HD-capable DVR is a DirecTiVO unit that you can't get without DirecTV service. Of all the items in the article's wish list, this is the most obvious must-have feature for the future, and I agree with its number 1 placement on both lists. We need OTA HD recording, and cable HD recording as well, and we need it in a stand-alone unit that doesn't require you to be a DirecTV customer.

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[enrico_suave]

Are you a series 1 or series 2 tivo owner (or satellite tivo)?

Once you do the hack to have it NOT encrypt the mpegs (some hex flag change) and if you have some sort of USB WiFi or etherent adapter plugged in you SHOULD be able to pull off your stuff much easier...

There's also the mechanical hack of pulling the drive and sneaker netting and using some tools to pull stuff off that way... I suppose

Note: My tivo is currently in a virgin state, I do my content retrieval/archival from my homebrew PVR (*gratuitious plug*) which is much easier (for me).

Re:there are not only Tivo or MS

[severoon]

I have a series2 80 hour. It's the one made by TiVo, the ugly black box. :)

I'm looking for something that's as easy as DVRchive is for ReplayTV, and the last time I looked into it was about 6 months ago. I found a few leads at that time, but I didn't have the time to follow up on them. As long as it's not a no-brainer I probably won't be interested, but I'll admit as time goes on...I'm dyin' to get stuff off my TiVo.

I'll check out your link but I've been there before and I don't really want to invest a lot of time into a homebrew option, but maybe nowadays they're talking about simpler solutions?

Radio and MP3

[Mike deVice]

Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide. If I would like to listen to KFOG's "Live at the Archives" on Wednesday morning at 3 a.m., so be it. If I would like to get a season pass to Howard Stern, great. These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable.

Will never, ever happen. Not in an non-DRM format like MP3, anyway. The RIAA would be alllll over that.

Re:Radio and MP3

[dyefade]

BBC do something like this already. Their "Listen Again" service lets you listen to any BBC Radio show broadcast in the last week. You can't (easily) save the content, but anyone who just wants to catch a show they missed the previous day or whatever (which I do all the time), can do.
I guess you could find a work-around to save the content, even if it's just to run an audio recorder... Audacity is OSS and popular I here.

Re:Radio and MP3

[Anonymous Coward]

Has already happened, to an extent: (UK, big chunks of far east, europe, australia). Use a VCR-like DAB radio to save mp2 onto an SDCard (pure digital's theBug is the only one at the moment I think). Quality is pretty good, no DRM. Getting fancy TiVo-like functionality is "just a matter of software".

Re:Radio and MP3

[kingLatency]

Why would the RIAA care about MP3s of a radio talk show?

Re:Radio and MP3

[Anonymous Coward]

Audacity is also pretty annoying. After using ACID Pro, I can't imagine having to use Audacity. Kinda like having to pull a horse cart on your own after having driven a BMW.

But since it's open source, I've been thinking maybe I should familiarize myself with the code volunteer for help in creating a nice user interface. And extra features of course.

Re:Radio and MP3

[Anonymous Coward]

not talking about talk shows. they play music on the radio too!

Re:Radio and MP3

[dspyder]

And ironically, Howard would probably be against it to.... he's been pretty adamant against Internet radio because he can't get paid for it. That's somewhat true, and being able to timeshift his program won't make him any happier.

Of course, most of us would agree that taping a radio show and playing it back later is WELL within fair use.

--D

Re:Radio and MP3

[angle_slam]

not talking about talk shows. they play music on the radio too!

And they've already been paid for that.

Re:Radio and MP3

[enrico_suave]

IANH, (obviously) but I think he'd be more upset if someone ELSE was making money off re-distributing his stuff, as opposed to just not making additional money for the re-distribution... *shrug*

People tape and encode (& edit?) and push his stuff out to usenet IIRC...

I'm sure if eh could captialize on it he would, but if he saw someone using his content to sell crap on a site or soemthing he'd flip his lid.

But what do i know... baba booey baba booey bababooey... what do you think of stern's pen1s...eff artie *click*

e.

I want my Rivo!

[daves]

6. Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide. If I would like to listen to KFOG's "Live at the Archives" on Wednesday morning at 3 a.m., so be it. If I would like to get a season pass to Howard Stern, great. These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable.

Amen to that. I want an MP3 player that syncs to this puppy, so I can listen to Car Talk during drive time.

Re:I want my Rivo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Double points if they don't use the word 'My'.

Re:I want my Rivo!

[Asshat Canada]

Chrissakes, Eh? What's the whole politickin aboot, Eh? Jeezus! A fella I know got one-a dem fuckin TV sets there. He's damn-well the mayor now! Fuck Creston, BC!

Re:I want my Rivo!

[philbowman]

If you want Car Talk to go, try Audible.com. I get The News from Lake Wobegon there every week.

So basicly he want a mythtv box.

[Robert The Coward]

Almost everything he talked about is in someform of completion on the http://www.mythtv.org/.

Re:So basicly he want a mythtv box.

[poot_rootbeer]

Almost everything he talked about is in someform of completion on the http://www.mythtv.org/.

"Some form of completion" isn't good enough. When the features are fully complete and ready for the consumer market, let me know.

Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[SpookyFish]

Number one for both is easy - establish partnerships with cable / satellite companies.

TiVo is ahead here thanks to DirecTV but that is looking sketchy since DirecTV's NDS subsid. has DVR technology of their own. POD, cablecard, and other open standards aren't even off the ground yet.

Within two years both TiVo and (especially) MS will be trailing in marketshare to cable-delivered boxes (Digeo's Moxi, Motorola 620x, SA Explorer 8k) with built-in conditional access.

Think no upfront investment, no change in service, and ten bucks a month.

Pity for TiVo - thanks to the brand recognition, people will be recording their shows with box XYZ and still saying "haven't watched it yet, but TiVo'ed it so don't tell me."

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn straight. I have an SA Explorer 8k. Know why i got it? I don't own it, the cable company (Adelphia) does. This means it uses the Adelphia program guide, is a cable box and DVR in one, and takes up only one plug in my already overkilled living room. Add to the fact that I don't have to worry about it dying on me, because if it does, I just go back to the cable company and get another one, for free. Sure, I wish it could send files to my computer. But I'm willing to have fewer features for less money. Imagine that.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[Awptimus Prime]

Pity for TiVo - thanks to the brand recognition, people will be recording their shows with box XYZ and still saying "haven't watched it yet, but TiVo'ed it so don't tell me."

When I had an Ultimate TV box, I had to say Tivo for people to know what I am talking about. Now I feel dirty and have a Tivo since lightening took out the UTV system. It is a pitty, and as much as I hate to say it, the Microsoft UTV system being 1st generation and over two years old was much better than my brand new Tivo in features and speed.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[MtViewGuy]

If I were TiVo I would try to partner with Comcast, perhaps the largest cable TV provider in the USA. That way, Comcast users get the benefits of TiVo (including dual-tuner operation), and Comcast could allocate one of its cable channels to send TiVo programming and software update data in the middle of the night at near-broadband speeds, which means updates only need a few minutes to complete. =)

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[Fnkmaster]

They tried. Apparently they have the same problem lots of Slashdotters complain about: nobody values software anymore. The big cable companies didn't want to bother paying licensing fees for Tivo software, figuring they could get their own salaried programmers or offshore shops to write the code and hack the hardware for the budget cable boxes their partners (Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, etc.) make. Tivo's only real hope was using their patents as a heavy stick and beating people over the head with them - I just hope they snuck into their DirecTV contract some terms that force DTV to recognize the patents and keep licensing them even if they try to drop the Tivo relationship.

Of course, you and I recognize that Tivo's offering is far superior to the Time Warner or Comcast "DVR" offerings, and I certainly am willing to shell out 200 bucks and pay 10 bucks a month for Tivo instead of just paying 10 bucks a month to my crappy cable company. But the average joe goes the easy, bundled route instead. Tivo's only hope, in my opinion, is the Cable Card technology, which should let their boxes replace the cable company box, and then market the whole thing as a premium replacement for the crappy box the cable company gives you, or partner with cable companies to offer the Tivo box as an "upgrade" option when you sign up for cable service.

Damn, come to think of it, I should be running this company, I'd get it on its feet in no time.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[walt-sjc]

FYI, A DirecTivo unit goes for $79. A plain sat receiver is $49, so the tivo part is only $30 more and has dual inputs. DirecTV only charges $4.99 for tivo service which is the same as the mirroring fee if you have 2 normal sat receiver boxes. Now hack your tivo so you can UL/DL video, MP3's, add in GAIM, etc. and it becomes QUITE a nice system. Base Tivo is nice, but as you say, it could do a lot more. I just wish the processor was faster and that it had more ram (this is a problem with MOST DVR's)

It would be very cool to get the digital steam directly into mythtv without re-encoding. Best of both worlds.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[ncc74656]

Base Tivo is nice, but as you say, it could do a lot more. I just wish the processor was faster and that it had more ram

What more does it need? MPEG encoding and decoding is done with dedicated hardware. Everything else is just displaying menus and whatnot, and that doesn't take much at all. Sure, Series 1 TiVos have less processing power than an old Power Macintosh 6100, but how often are you stuck waiting on it? The only operation I know of that can take an inordinate amount of time is changing the priorities on your Season Passes, which isn't exactly something that you do every day. Browsing the list of stuff that's already recorded or stuff that's coming up is fast enough.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[walt-sjc]

Oh, boy. I get FREQUENT very slow operations of all sorts. Go into the todo list and delete some individual shows. Painful. Just hitting record can be a very slow operation taking over 30 seconds before it's all set.

On my S1 DTivo, I installed a cachecard with 512M and that has helped a lot for season pass / recording management, but some operations are still very pokey. Many of the hacks that improve the usability of the tivo (tivoweb, etc.) take even more of that precious ram.

Real ram would be a lot more useful than the cachecard ram. One dimm slot would have been awesome, but would have increased cost. I would have happily swapped out the 32M for 512M. The biggest performance hit is not having enough ram, but a better processor would help make the tivo much more responsive. I navigate very quickly, and the tivo always lags - sometimes a LOT.

I just bought a new S2 unit yesterday. Even with zero hacks at all, it's pretty pokey with simple navigation being even slower than my old s1!

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[ncc74656]

Oh, boy. I get FREQUENT very slow operations of all sorts. Go into the todo list and delete some individual shows. Painful. Just hitting record can be a very slow operation taking over 30 seconds before it's all set.

Maybe DirecTV is doing something weird with its TiVos...additional background processes or something else like that. Mine's a standalone (a Philips HDR112, upgraded with a bigger HD, more memory, and a network interface) and it doesn't behave like that. Some have suggested the number of active channels might have something to do with it, but I have mine set up to use digital cable (with a number of channels comparable to what you'd get with DirecTV) and it's not perceptibly slower than when I just had the coax from the wall jack going straight into the tuner.

As for memory, I went ahead and upgraded mine from 16 MB to 32 (had to solder two chips to the motherboard and bring up the diagnostic menu on the serial port). For normal use, it wouldn't have made a difference. It mainly reduced the thrashing a little bit when tyindex (part of TyStudio) is active.

Re:Decent lists, but both wrong at the top.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pity for TiVo - thanks to the brand recognition, people will be recording their shows with box XYZ and still saying "haven't watched it yet, but TiVo'ed it so don't tell me."

I never say don't tell me, but I've had a similar problem. I told someone I have a DVR, so I didn't know what day a program I was telling him about was on. "DVR?". I said it was like a TiVo and was scolded for not saying so in the first place. Telling him I didn't own a TiVo didn't make a bit of difference.

Pretty good, but not perfect

[aligas]

Overall I thought the article was pretty good, but I feel it was off on a few points. I'll admit I own a TiVo, so I am going to focus more on them since I am familiar with the device/service.

Microsoft

Point 2: The article suggests 4 tuners, but how many should be recordable at one time? The HDTV TiVo unit can only record from any two tuners at a time. Does anyone know if current hard disks could handle two HD streams and two analog streams? I think this is the reason why TiVo only allows recording on two of the 4 tuners in their HD model at any given time.

TiVo

Point 2: TiVo has already announced "TiVoToGo" which will implement what the article is requesting. It is scheduled for release this fall. The reason the ports are disabled on the Hughes model is because of DirecTV - not TiVo. TiVo has stated many times that if they had things their way, the DirecTV models would have all the features the standalone models do.

Point 3: I'm not really sold on needing a DVD burner in every unit if you can download the files to a PC to burn them to DVD like the author wants in the second point. If I have a DVD burner in my PC, I would rather not have to pay for another in my TiVo. I think the units should be available, but I don't think they should all be forced to have them.

Point 4: The HDTV unit from TiVo will almost surely have the Home Media Features and TiVoToGo. Again, the only reason the DirecTV HDTV unit does not is because DirecTV wants it that way for whatever reason.

Point 7: It might be a great idea to offer an external USB 2.0 add-on that you could use for simply holding media that has been already recorded. Meaning the TiVo still records to the internal hard disk, and manages everything like it always has, but you can copy a show to the external disk to free space on the internal disks. This saves TiVo from some tough questions (are the USB 2.0 ports fast enough for direct recording, how to handle if someone yanks the drive in the middle of a recording, which shows get stored where, etc), but still allows folks to get the additional space they need.

Point 9: I think TiVo's acquisition of Strangeberry will help implement features like these. Business 2.0 has an article right now that talks about what the Strangeberry purchase is bringing to the table for TiVo. Link to cut/paste of article (Business 2.0 is non-free/registration).

Re:Pretty good, but not perfect

[Phanatic1a]

Point 2: The article suggests 4 tuners, but how many should be recordable at one time? The HDTV TiVo unit can only record from any two tuners at a time.

Not to mention that if your source for your programming is digital cable, you still need a set-top box. For me to use two tuners on my TiVo, I'd still need two boxes from my cable company. I could see that as being reasonable, but come on, you've got TiVo, so it's not like you need to schedule your viewing to accomodate a program schedule, and anything worth watching is going to be repeated soon enough anyway. Four tuners strikes me as completely superfluous.

Re:Pretty good, but not perfect

[mjpaci]

Disclaimer: I did not read the article.

However, wouldn't it be cool if TiVos were cable-card compatible? That's effectively what the DirecTiVos are. Believe it or not, the cable companies would rather charge you $2.00 per month for your cable card than $4.50 per month for a basic (PPV and HBO-like channels) set-top box. Think about how much capital they have invested in set-top boxes. Need a software upgrade? Mail out a new cable card.

--Mike

Re:Pretty good, but not perfect

[Fnkmaster]

I think all of us would love to see the cable card spec actually implemented. DirecTivo is fabulous, but many of us live in places where we don't have the exposure to get a satellite link (an apartment with the wrong directional facing, for instance). Ultimately, I think Tivo needs cablecard to be adopted to succeed as a company, to make sales and installation as painless as possible. And even better, perhaps with cablecard in place, they could finally get some partnerships going with the otherwise obstreperous cable companies, if they could convince them they could turn a premium Tivo-based offering into a profit-center for themselves at signup time.

Re:Pretty good, but not perfect

[asavage]

For point 7, my USB 2 hard drive takes about 1 minute to transfer 700 MB. USB 2 can transfer at 480 Mbps.

Windows MCE

[Universal Indicator]

I have been using Windows Media Center for several months now and have been very pleased with it. Its great having your recorded shows available on your home network to watch on any computer in the house whenever you want, not to mention being a huge digital jukebox -- just throw in as many hard drives as you can and you've got true media "center" capabilities, you can't say that for a TiVo.

The biggest advantage the Media Center has is that you can play any AVI files you want as long as you have the codec installed. And the remote control works with every proprietary IR device (ie cable boxes) that I throw at it.

I tried MythTV, and while its a great project, XP MCE has it beat at this point in time by far, but I think that may be mostly due to most hardware drives being written for Windows only.

Although I'm looking forward very much to MCE 2005, in all fairness I haven't tried a TiVO, and the TivO's dual-tuner functionality is something that the MCE misses. However, when you're using a digital cable box, having a second tuner doesn't matter anyway.

Re:Windows MCE

[DigiShaman]

In Austin TX, Time Warner offers a DVR (Digital Video Recorder) cable box with dual-tuners as well. It's the Scientific Atlanta 8000 box to be exact. They also have a Hi-Def box verison with a 160GB drive that will record Hi-Def TV as well.

Re:Windows MCE

[spronk]

If you had done your homework you'd know that MCE is one of the worst HTPC suites out there. Even when compared against other Windows apps. What you list as MCEs biggest advantage is a feature in almost every HTPC software package out there. It terms of features and functionality many packages are better than MCE, MythTV by FAR outpaces it.

Re:Windows MCE

[spronk]

Even if you only comapre Windows based solutions MCE comes out pretty close to the bottom. MythTV by FAR exceeds MCE's features and functionality.

Stop by HTPC News sometime and do a little research. They're pretty Windows-centric but they're coming around.

Re:Windows MCE

[cybermage]

Time Warner's DVR is highly unstable. After a couple of months, they start spontaneously rebooting. I gave up after the first one did it, but I have a friend who's on his fifth.

There are other issues besides that:

• If you want to record a show, you can manually select each show from the one week program guide; or, you can opt to record every instance of the show. -- If the show is on four times a day, that's too bad. You can delete the extras once they're recorded, but you cannot delete one episode from the list of shows to record if you've opted for all episodes.
• The program guide cannot be customized to drop channels you don't watch/receive. As you have to browse through the guide to schedule recordings, this can be tedious. -- TiVo has an interface to edit out channels for any reason you desire.
• While you can browse for shows by name, you can only search within a given day. The alphabetical listing is only indexed by first letter and then you have to scroll from either the end or begining. Also, every episode of every show is listed (e.g., screen after screen of 'Paid Programing') -- TiVo allows you to search the entire schedule by any of the following criteria: Initial substring of name (as many letters as you like), description keywords, title keywords, actors, and genre or selected combinations of those. And, nearly any search criteria can be setup for automatic recording. (e.g., record all westerns with John Wayne)

Re:Windows MCE

[DigiShaman]

If his DVR box is rebooting, then chances are it's due to a poor signal going to the unit. And being that he is on his fifth box, I'm willing to bet 99.999% this is the case.

With the cable box on, press and hold the oval plus key located in the center of the channel and volume arrow keys. Once the message light flashes (next to the envelope), let go of that button and press the Info button. At this point, you should now see a black scree labeled "Status Summery. Here your going to look for the following values on the screen within range. If they fall outside if this range or says "RANGE", then there is your proof of a signal problem.

Tuner: -15 to 10 dbmv
FDC: -15 to 10 dbmv
RDC: +30 to +50 dbmv
QAM Signal to noise ratio should be +30db or above.

Why yes, I am your friendly cable guy ;)

Number one in both lists -- HDTV support!

[Osty]

Yes, please! And while suggestions are being made, make the stand-alone HD units support not only OTA HD feeds but also digital cable. You can get a HD Tivo right now, but only for satellite. If you have OTA or cable HD, you're SOL.

IMHO

[ArcherB]

Good article. It's amazing what happens when you actually read it!

However, the article makes it seem as if there is only TiVo and MS Media Center. I rent a box from my cable company that records two high def channels at once. However, I wish it had more features listed in the article.

It would be nice to be able to burn TV shows to DVD, for example. My wife keeps recording shows that she is never going to watch and keeps them on the HDD forever (You've Got mail, Down With Love, etc). I'd like some way of backing these up to free up the drive space.

I will not purchase a TiVo because you have to pay for the unit and then pay for the service (right?). That's bogus in my opinion. If I'm going to pay a monthly fee, then I should have the box provided. Also, I'd want the DVD burning ability that TiVo will not provide me.

I won't buy TiVo nor Media Center because I don't know if they are 100% with my digital cable. Will I be able to record two shows at once or record oneand watch another? Not if it has to change the channel on my existing cable box. Will it be able to change the channel on the cable box? Can I throw my cable box out and just use the TiVo unit or Media Center CPU in it's place? I can't find answers to these questions and won't spend the money on either of these units until I know for sure that they will be an improvement over my existing PVR unit.

Finally, the radio idea sounded great. I could record the radio stuff I miss because I do stupid things like work and watch TV.

Re:IMHO

[Universal Indicator]

The MCE is lacking dual-tuner support in its current version (hopefully next version will have it), but there is a VERY good chance that it will work with your digital cable box. I have BrightHouse (TimeWarner) digital cable, and I have tried three different digital cable boxes (one of them a brand new SA8k dvr box) and they all worked with no problems.

The MCE comes with an "IR-Blaster" that transmits the signal it needs to your cable box to change channels, etc.

The main advantage of MCE is to be able to watch videos other than just the ones you record. You could watch DivX movies for example, or online streaming videos.

Re:IMHO

[seanadams.com]

My wife keeps recording shows that she is never going to watch and keeps them on the HDD forever (You've Got mail, Down With Love, etc). I'd like some way of backing these up to free up the drive space.


Newlywed, eh?

Just tell her you did it. Problem solved.

Re:IMHO

[fiber_halo]

Will I be able to record two shows at once or record oneand watch another? Not if it has to change the channel on my existing cable box.

I don't know about Tivo but I do have a ReplayTV that I use with Dish Network. In your case you have to have two (cable) tuners to record two shows at once. Those could be in the same box, but more likely you would need two separate cable boxes, and probably two Tivos.

Recording one show while watching another is not usually a problem because what you'll find is that you rarely ever watch "live TV". You tend to only watch stuff that is already on the hard drive. So you don't need a second tuner to watch a previously-recorded show while recording a single new show.

As far as controlling the channels, that is usually done through the Tivo. There is an "IR blaster" that is basically just an LED that you tape to the front of the cable box. When you change channels on the Tivo, it automatically controls the cable box for you. In my case, I only use the ReplayTV controller, never the dishnet remote.

You mention you already have a PVR unit. Doesn't your existing one do these same things? I've always assumed they were all pretty much the same in terms of basic functionality.

Re:IMHO

[nachoboy]

Your digital cable probably comes to your TV via a leased (cable company-owned) set-top box. The point of the box is to decrypt the premium channels, and there's nothing that Media Center can do about it. Here's how a MCE box normally works. You feed coax cable from the wall to the set-top box. The box decrypts the feed, and you connect another coax cable from the set-top box to a tuner card installed in the MCE PC. At this point the MCE PC is functioning as your TV. You would then use a MCE remote pointed at a small USB receiver to control the MCE interface and change channels. To enable the MCE PC to change channels on the cable box, you connect a small IR emitter from the aforementioned USB IR receiver to your set-top box's front panel, directly in front of its remote sensor. The MCE PC will then "relay" commands to the set-top box as needed.

Tivo is a subscription service, you'll have to pay to use their guide data either monthly or a large lifetime fee. MCE PC's get guide data for free.

MCE 2004 (currently only available purchased with a new machine from the likes of Dell or HP) allows you to watch DVD's, display pictures and slideshows, play and visualize music, listen to radio, and watch and record TV (1 tuner maximum).

MCE 2005 (available later this year from large OEM's and local 'white box' dealers alike) does all of the above, and adds support for dual (that's two ONLY) tuners. You can reportedly watch HDTV but only if your signal is over-the-air. Also, you'll be able to do all your media tasks on other TV's around the house by purchasing MCE extender devices.

I'm not sure about the integrated DVD-burning capabilities of MCE, but perhaps someone else can comment on that. I doubt I'd use it myself; I would use real video editing software to strip commercials and then pack as much content as possible on each DVD.

Re:IMHO

[rixster]

Newlyweds

Yeah my wife likes that piece of trash too....

Re:IMHO

[Anonymous Coward]

The media burning capabilities of the Windows Media Center are limited to say the least. On top of the huge hardware purchase, you then have to pay about 75-85 dollars for the software to burn shows on a DVD from 3rd party vendors (if you want to do it "with the click of a remote").

I think Microsoft should build this functionality into their media center, they would win over a lot more customers at the local Best Buy.

Re:IMHO

[zeroduck]

DVD Recorder, you say. Pioneer makes a TiVo with a DVD burner attached. Additionally, on ANY TiVO when you pick a show, and go into it's menu, it does have an option to "Save to VCR." I suppose you could use some other kind of video recording device too.

You're right about being weary of the monthly fee--but in my oppinion it's worth it. With that fee, you get guide data far out in the future. You can plan what your TiVo will record for you over your vacation, and if you miss anything you can schedule it online (but not if you have DirecTivo, because they're not allowing HMO onto those boxes).

Most TiVos only have one tuner, and it sounds like a huge limitation. It's not. Most shows are shown again within the same week. If you use Season Passes (the best feature of TiVo), it'll handle the conflicts for you.

As for your Digital Cable delimas, you need one cable box per tuner. TiVo can change the channel on it by IR or some by a serial port. The more elegant solution to this is a CableCard TiVo; unfortunately, there isn't one in existance yet, but there is chatter that it's coming.

TiVo has a 30 day money back gaurentee.. try it. Anyone with a TiVo will tell you that once you get it for the 30 days, you wont know how to live without it.

First post!

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean remotes will soon include CTRL, ALT, and DELETE keys? What happens now when I a new devastating worm propagates, we can't even watch TV?

The man wants his fair use, damn it!

[thewldisntenuff]

If anyone RTFA (I know it's early in the discussion), the man is insane! He wants both companies to pretty much allow copying and sharing of files....I bet Jack Valenti and Hillary Rosen both shit a brick after hearing this guy.
Examples -

"Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide....These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable. "

Heh..."should be saved to mp3 and portable"...Might as well give a big middle finger to the RIAA.

"Provide Ethernet connectivity to their HDTV unit and include the ability to share recorded files with a Windows-based PC. "

While this doesn't run entirely afoul (see previous TiVo sharing articles of yore on /.) of DRM, he doesn't mention it anywhere in TFA. Sharing/fair use seems to be encouraged...

Two more -

"Provide a DVD burner with all units. Copying should be as simple as selecting a program and pressing "Burn to disc" on a menu."

and

"Provide the ability to connect external hard drives."

The RIAA/MPAA/AAA would be up in arms over this....It will never happen - They'd rather eat their own sh!t than allow for fair use and sharing to actually occur...The man has valid (and good) points, but none of them will ever happen in corporate-controlled America.......

But a geek's wet dream if you ask me :)

Re:The man wants his fair use, damn it!

[cra]

Heh..."should be saved to mp3 and portable"...Might as well give a big middle finger to the RIAA.

Personally I think a heavy boot in the rear end is what the RIAA deserves. :-)

Re:The man wants his fair use, damn it!

[Rakarra]

Actually, he wants MORE than fair use.

He wants to back shows up permanently to DVD, and that has never been allowed under fair use, only time shifting. Time shifting is different from a permanent archive that can be watched over and over again. The former was allowed from the Betamax decision, the latter hasn't. Until recently though there was no way to allow one while disallowing the other.

Missing option...

[turk182x2001]

Replay TV

Are they really even competition?

[LukeTurner]

Most people who have media center pc's only have them because it looked cool at Circuit City when they were checkign out the latest HP's.... I mean, they are useful, but having a full desktop PC as my home media center is just ... not viable...Even when connected to a television. Tivo is only for recording television... correct? Pause, rewind, record live tv... i've never owned a tivo, but that's all I know they do. Sure, wifi on there to share my recordings/play my video and music collection on the main television is great... The only thing I see here, people want High Def, everything else in the article seems useless.. But what do I know? I just use my xbox to watch my divx/xvid collection and play my mp3's on my home stereo... it's in HD, but it doesn't record... That's what my tuner card in my pc is for. Call me old fasioned, but if I have a 250gig HD, I'd rather use it for my PC + Recordings then a stand alone unit... Oh yeah, 1st post (so it seems)

What?

[ParticleMan911]

Microsoft in the Living Room? Thanks but I'd prefer not to see "Windows encountered an error" messages while watching my Aqua Teen Hunger Force DVDs. Do I want to send a detailed error report to Microsoft? Hmm, so they can see that i've been watching and make me feel like they will do something about it? No. I'll stick with my $60 DVD player, and dreams of affording a TIVO later on. But as for Microsoft in the living room, I'll take a pass.

They really stretched making 10,

[JVert]

The suggestions really start to get redundant, I would have stopped at 5.
Hot off the "Tivo vs poor customer support at Best Buy" article... Kinda funny they use the 1st generation screenshot for media center.
Regardless I have a Tivo in the living room and a Media Center in the bedroom. I just like the media center better so i'll respond with my own biased opinion.
But i'd love someone to actually bundle a remote and IR blaster to plug into their computer to work with one of the free linux PVR's.

Offer support for recording high-definition TV as soon as possible, including an immediate announcement of an anticipated delivery date.
Offer quad (four) tuners - two for regular broadcasts and two for HDTV. There should never be recording conflicts.

Its in the next beta. But microsoft isn't as sharing with details on the beta, or maybe nobody seems to know how to ask.

Provide easy support for 16:9 widescreen video display, including the development of a generic display driver that will display the Media Center software correctly on almost any 16:9 display. Forcing a plasmato display in 4:3 format for extended periods of time creates screen burn.

Maybe you should fire up that windows update, 16:9 support is great in MCE 2004


Develop simple drag-and-drop archiving of shows to DVD. Words like codecs and drivers and DivX and Sonic DVD and memory buffer error should not be a part of the process.

Agreed, Although the third party support in Media Center is beyond anything Tivo has. Tivo hacks be damned nobody has written a plugin that you can use on tivo while watching TV.

Media Center should handle large media libraries better. In the "instant on" world of today, media libraries (especially music) must be indexed and optimized to create instant entertainment. At present Media Center does not handle large digital media libraries well.
Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide. If I would like to listen to KFOG's "Live at the Archives" on Wednesday morning at 3 a.m., so be it. If I would like to get a season pass to Howard Stern, great. These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable.

The radio feature is very crippled, but I think this is based on the fact that online radio stations will be the smarter choice for future development.
As for large media, media center handles large lists of recorded tv a WHOLE lot better then my Tivo. Especially when making multiple recordings. And their interface for music is... really good?


Improve stability. Media Center should be as stable and error-free as TiVo's Linux-based system.


Damn true, but the only errors I have is download guide data, I dont know if its Media Center's database or they just keep getting corrupt data from their guide source. But it happens alot. Others dont seem to have this problem. But its running windows so it must be unstable, right?


Provide ratings and preferences in the user profile rather than in the files or players. They must also create some kind of suggestions feature similar to Tivo for television and music. One huge step that Microsoft took in the right direction was creating a music ratings feature. At present these ratings must be the same for all users of a computer. If I like Nirvana and my wife prefers Alan Jackson then we are out of luck.


Microsoft telling you what you want to watch? Nobody is falling for that one. Music is strongly tied for all users. But an interesting feature is the My Videos collection can by global, or per user, music and recorded tv will be there very soon.


Provide ratings and simple filtering capabilities for digital photos. If I want to show pictures of John and Alan and Pete and Bob while they are over for dinner then the filter tool in "my pictures" should allows for me to do this. Put them in a folder, your not going to type in "john and alan" with a remote. This idea wouldn't make it on a

It's not all TiVo's fault

[Powerdog]

TiVo had shown a reference HDTV unit back at the CES show in January 2003. However, no manufacturers were interested in building it. The DVR market is still small, and HDTV is an even smaller piece of that.

As far as limitations on the HR10-250 unit, you can probably blame DIRECTV. Their Series2-derived DVRs have USB ports that can be used for HMO (Home Media Option) but DTV has chosen not to do so. If you can find 4.0, you can install it on your HDVR2 and enable HMO. So the missing HMO functionality is not a technology issue.

Putting a DVD burner in each unit would be handy, but would also increase the cost. DVRs still aren't in widespread use and keeping the price point high won't help.

Finally, TiVo did announce TiVoToGo, which will allow you to play content on your PC.

Re:It's not all TiVo's fault

[walt-sjc]

The DVR market is still small, and HDTV is an even smaller piece of that.

True, but I would bet that the DVR market IN the HDTV market is quite large. I think it's more the expense than anything. The DirectHDTivo is kind of spendy but not too bad really ($299). It's heavily subsidized by DirectTV since you pay extra for the HDTV programming. They are betting that if you buy and HDTV PVR that you will subscribe to a significant portion of HDTV services. That would be a good bet.

A SA HDTV unit would be a LOT harder to recoup costs on. They pretty much have to sell it at full cost.

If I like Nirvana and my wife prefers Alan Jackson

[Anonymous Coward]

"If I like Nirvana and my wife prefers Alan Jackson then we are out of luck"

If that's the case, you might have other things to worry about then your media center.

huge gap.

[bagel2ooo]

When I go over to parents/grandparents and see them checking their e-mail on AOL and having their VCR/DVD player (lesser so DVD Player) flashing midnight, I realize just how much abstraction needs to be done for all of that to be a smooth process. The article does talk a lot about practical features and de-jargonizing the whole thing. I know they were most likely targetting the early adopters with this, but to get the highest amount of saturation they will have to make a lot of changes, some sensible, some quite radical.

Missing list item: Trust

[Wee]

The "The top 10 things Microsoft must do to win the living room" list was missing item number zero (out of an 11 item list):

0. Earn consumers' trust.

I personally don't trust MS very much. In addition, they've had a history of choosing convenience over security, and they're business model leaves a lot to be desired. Their products seem to be built on a methodology of expedience rather than robustness. MS also has a habit of trying to think for the consumer, and deal harshly with anyone who tries to move beyonds the bounds of the expected customer experience. Their EULAs are oppressive.

My gaming PC I can handle updating all the time and not using very much. My TV and DVR are "appliance-grade" items, and I expect them to work without fail, all the time. I don't see MS delivering there.

And even if they did, I wouldn't trust them with something as innocuous as knowing my family's TV viewing habits.

-B

Re:Missing list item: Trust

[ndogg]

You and how many other people?

Sorry, but we're the minority in this issue. That's not going to be much of a problem for Microsoft.

Re:Missing list item: Trust

[walt-sjc]

It's a small problem at this point, but it IS a growing one. I wouldn't write the trust issue off too quickly. We are talking about future, not yesterday and today.

I've known several die-hard windows fans that have converted over the past couple years for multiple reasons - security, cost, flexability, and reliability. It's not that they are converting specifically to Linux or Mac - it's that they are converting AWAY from windows and Linux and mac just happen to be the most viable options.

Echo

[Uberdog]

I've become so tired of summaries of stories on other websites being the first paragraph of said story on other website. I don't really need to read the same paragraph twice, do I? Sometimes the exact same teasers are three deep.

Snapstream

[AIX-Hood]

Let's not forget about Snapstream with it's web and 10-foot based administration. I've been using it for a long time and it has a larger feature set than both Tivo and Media Center if you include the up and coming Beyond Media. It even does dual tuners now like Myth TV.

Re:Snapstream

[spronk]

It even does dual tuners now like Myth TV

Myth does unlimited tuners. Myth even allows machines with mutliple tuners in them to be linked all recording under the auhority of a single macter machine.

Re:Snapstream

[edgezone]

Amen! I know a lot of the OSS crowd will comment about the greatness of MythTV (and yes, i've used it on Gentoo), but Snapstream is just way easy and does everything I want. The beta of 3.5 has some questionable decisions (the change in the web interface is questionable because it adds quite a few clicks to managing things), but that's why it's beta, and they're taking feedback.

I've also beta tested BeyondMedia and that is another really slick program. Not having used Media Center, I shouldn't comment too much about it, but I do love the fact that with Snapstream, you can use industry standard MPEG-2, or choose to recompress to either DivX or WMV (don't know of plans to support any other encoders as of just yet). It's easy for me then to share the files, or burn them to CD to watch on my laptop later. Combine that with their free snapstream.net guide service, and it's a no brainer to do most anything on it (even my idiot roommate has been able to figure it out).

I've tried Freevo, MythTV, ATI's TV app, WinPVR, PowerVCR II, and SageTV, and without a doubt, BeyondTV serves my needs the best.

A missing thing...

[Mayfoev]

Tivo should consider making business and selling their machines in Europe, Asia^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H the rest of the world too. The War in the Living Room is not only in North America. Is it?

Anyway, in Europe, AFAIK, it's too late. It has been a long wait for such Tivo-like products, but from now on the market exists here for 2 years.

Re:A missing thing...

[mingrassia]

Anyway, in Europe, AFAIK, it's too late. It has been a long wait for such Tivo-like products

I thought there were already Tivo-like products on the market in Europe. This is the first one that comes to my mind.

Granted it is not a Tivo, but some models still offer PVR functionality.

Amiga, Linux, Tivo ... my fascination with cult-like technologies would intrigue any psychiatrist :-)

/. you wascawy wabbit!

[lavaface]

Damn!! Why must you tease us by posting a story and then updating the database, disabling comments ?!?! I wrote an articulate response and even RTFA. Now all I've got is this . . . FP?

Mod parent up

[Wehesheit]

I agree 100%

+5 insightful

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Just when I thought the "me too" post that adds nothing at all to the discussion was dead on /. ...oh well. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but--why bother with this kind of comment?

Yes, I'm posting AC because I don't particularly want to engage this discussion with you. It's a hit'n'run notification that you've done something pointless and annoying, and let's leave it at that.

some ideas seem crazy

[womby]

Sacrifice current sales by announcing that the future MCE will kick multiple asses on so many levels that you would be crazy to buy something now.

But other ideas are spot on, multi user features need to be added to the tivo, its the only issue I have ever had, my wife likes romantic comedy, I like kevin smith, my wife likes pop idol, I like poking my eyes out with forks.

What I want is the option to say, "if there is ever a conflict, record what my wife wants". I know who wears the pants in our house, and it isn't me.

Re:some ideas seem crazy

[zeroduck]

Use Season Passes. They're prioritized in order that they'd be recorded, in the case of a conflict.

Re:some ideas seem crazy

[womby]

You are absolutely right and that is what we do.

Actually, I'm rooting for. . .

[kfg]

the people in the living room.

KFG

MS vs TiVo

[p0rnking]

"Provide a host of additional remote services including email, voicemail, caller ID, vehicle tracking, home automation (lights, home alarm security, window shades, thermostat), and "My RSS" feeds. "My Art" should also be included. Wasn't Bill Gates running around buying up all the digital rights to fine art a while back?"

I thought these were PVRs, Personal Video Recorders ... not a devive to control my home ...

linux.slashdot.org

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't fear the penguins? If that isn't just plum-silly, I don't know what is!

I do like the colour scheme though.

We are???

[DiSKiLLeR]

Especially TiVo, since we're all rooting for them anyway.

We are???

I don't know about YOU, but i certainly don't wanna have sex with my TiVo.....

Re:We are???

[ozmanjusri]

I can't work out whether to mod you up for being Australian or down for being obtuse...

netflix

[lavaface]

I must say I like th #10 suggestion for Tivo: Merge with Netflix. There's a lot to be said for this combination of video on demand.

Re:netflix

[walt-sjc]

Or blockbuster, which just announced a cheaper version of netflix.

WHat I wouldn't mind seeing is a service from DirecTV that is like netflix. They have lots of spare sat capacity now, and they could offer a service where you could pick a movie and it would schedule it to be broadcast sometime in the next week. DirecTivo would record it. How cool would that be? Kind of a better version of pay per view.

napster 2.0

[vehn23]

Making a DVR that a) includes a DVD burner or b) allows a user to easily play video files from a PC on their TV would be disasterous for everyone in my opinion. Maybe it should come with a bit torrent client and firefox and start up at suprnova too?

Re:napster 2.0

[zeroduck]

DVD burner

Also slated for release late this fall is TiVoToGo. With it you'll be able to get the shows off your box and burn them on your PC, or take them to a laptop or PDA to watch on the go. (It'll encompass some sort of DRM)

I am still rooting for TiVo. But, I should say, that I'm watching recorded TV on my TiVo right now.

But will anyone care?

[theM_xl]

One of the other will win, sure, but is there that much to be won? I'm probably not representative but I won't be buying either since I've pretty much stopped watching TV. With content moving more and more toward live broadcasts and "reality shows" I'm less and less interested in using my TV for anything but my Playstation and DVDs. I don't need timeshifting for either of those.

Radio Recording?

[riptide_dot]

- Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide. If I would like to listen to KFOG's "Live at the Archives" on Wednesday morning at 3 a.m., so be it. If I would like to get a season pass to Howard Stern, great. These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable.

What, are these people CRAZY?!? There's no way a device that has the capability of RECORDING RADIO (or anything) is EVER going to be kosher with the DMCA!!! And the capability to save them in MP3 format? Whoever thought that must have lost their mind. Isn't anyone paying attention to what the RIAA has been telling us lately? Recording stuff is BAD. Paying for stuff every time you play it on another device is GOOD. Sheesh - it's like these people don't remember how those whole "cassette player" and "CD player" fads RUINED music and radio and made it so no one could make money because no one would buy any cassettes or CDs anymore...

wait...
hold on...

THEY DIDN'T.

Re:Radio Recording?

[Anonymous Coward]

gpx/bantam makes a portable mp3 recorder with a built-in fm tuner. they probably didn't ask RIAA for permission.

Re:Radio Recording?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use the free Linux software "VDR" (http://www.cadsoft.de/people/kls/vdr/) and a DVB card to record from the radio in mp2 format. This works well in Europe, where there are lots of DVB sat and cable radio stations. I'm not sure about the situation in the US. Some mp3 players support mp2 format as well, so there is no need to convert to mp3 if you get the right player (or an alternative, free OS for it). Unfortunately, the most popular players, such as the ipod, and those from Sony, don't play mp2 format directly, for whatever reason.

The UnderUnderdog

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially TiVo, since we're all rooting for them anyway.

Speak for yourself. Some of us are still rooting for ReplayTV!

M$ vs TiVo

[p0rnking]

"Offer a software package for sale that will run on any Windows-based PC. TiVo should leverage their name brand recognition and become a powerful software player."

If TiVo were to offer their software separately, why would I buy it, when I can go and get something like MythTV for free?

I know this is kind of a bad comparison, but that's like buying a Mac vs. buying a Linux based system ... you buy a Mac for the whole system, software AND hardware ... you buy a linux based system 'cause you're too cheap to buy anything else, or you hate M$, AND want to build your own system ... besides those who come to /., I doubt there's a large % of people who can go out and get the TiVo software, and build their own system for it.

Re:M$ vs TiVo

[Raptor CK]

Ironically enough, the Series 1 TiVos were almost Linux-based Macs. PowerPC CPU, Linux kernel.

I agree, though. Not enough people want to run software on their PC which requires additional hardware to begin with.

The cost of the software, plus the tuner and extra disk you'd end up buying, just isn't worth it compared to the simplicity of a standalone unit.

Re:M$ vs TiVo

[enrico_suave]

" "Offer a software package for sale that will run on any Windows-based PC. TiVo should leverage their name brand recognition and become a powerful software player."

If TiVo were to offer their software separately, why would I buy it, when I can go and get something like MythTV for free?"

besides the work in progress windows based mythTV client, myth isn't really available for windows...

Of course there is GBPVR which is windows and free as in beer.

Sage TV IMHO ( review ) is pretty close to usability as Tivo... and there's also SnapStream's Beyond TV ... both are windows based commercial software PVR solutions which there ARE a market for.

So, in short even though YOU'd download knoppmyth or mythtv for free... others would be interested in TiVo on teh windoze platform... (or on linux for that matter).

Regardless of platform (win/linux) if tivo created a software package that installed as easily as the settop box... and was as easy to use it would be of interest to people on BOTH platforms... (even with knoppmyth/etc I don't think it's *quite* easy enough for "anyone" to install and configure... but it's certainly getting there)

E.

could it be?

[boots@work]

FP!

Oh fragjus day!

what TiVo needs to do...

[macshune]

Although the article mentions TiVo merging up with a "cash-flow positive company," I think the answer is simpler in that TiVo can just license its highly visible brand to a major cable company and sell branded set-top boxes. TiVo dropped the ball once, but I'm sure it's still up for grabs. TiVo is much more recognizable (e.g. a brand) than General Whatever's generic DCT-XXXX, et al and would help protect against TiVo's waning marketshare in the time-shifted set-top box world.

Props to the writer of the article, also, for mentioning all those wonderful technical possibilites. If only half of those were to come true (and only if I actually watched TV:)!!!

Sony will win

[taradfong]

Like every other consumer product, the American companies will have some cool innovations but eventually they will lose track of their product with sloppiness and misunderstanding of the consumer because they are driven by short term profits and sources of high growth at the expense of slow-but-sure day-to-day quality. Then the Japanese electronics companies will make an easy to use, cute, reliable product and walk away with the market.

F to the P

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're getting a Tivo.

It's BRILLIANT!

Re:F to the P

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, reading at -1 is a way better way to read /. You learn something new every day.

HDTV on Windows Media Center Edition

[figleaf]

The article is not quite right.
HDTV is possible in Media Center using the VBox DTA-111 card.
Just install the BGA drivers you can record and view HDTV in all its glory on a MCE.

Multi-tuner support is available in the next version of MCE (codename Symphony) which will be released by the end of this month.
Along with a host of features including caller ID

Re:HDTV on Windows Media Center Edition

[enrico_suave]

the DTA-111 card only uses software based encoding and decoding... yuck!

I can't tell, but I assume that card only supports OTA digital TV signals... which is the bane (to me) of all these PCI based Digital TV cards...

I'm thinking, since the content delivery companies are unlikely to sanction a PC based "decoder/unencrypter" of their QAM digital HDTV signal... that a Firewire "slaving" type solution is the way PC based media centers can get at the HDTV content on these set top boxes...

It can be both the transmission and the controlling aspect (like using a serial cable or ir blaster with a digitial cable box now, for example but also being a way to transfer the content)

*shrug* HTPC'ers better think of something fast before broadcast flag kicks in June '05

E.

Explorer 8000

[luugi]

What about Explorer 8000 from Scientific Atlanta? I love it and hate it. I have a little blog about it here.

Re:Explorer 8000

[DigiShaman]

Thanks for the feedback provided on your blog ;)

Time Warner (Austin, TX) is about to push a new firmware revision to all Explorer 8000 DRV boxes (non HD...for now) that will enable a drive meter that will tell you how much storage you have left. Also, this new firmware revision is supposed to fix quite a bit of other bugs as well. I will see if I can get the whole list and post the revision changes.

In the mean time, if your having problems with your DVR recording and issues with a bugged playback list, chances are the file system is corrupted. You can format the drive by following these steps.

Make sure the box is turned off to start with.

1. With the remote, press and hold the pause key untill you see the "message light" flash on the front of the DVR box. You make have to hold the button down for at least 5 seconds or more.

2. Once you see the flashing light, press the negitive-page key on the remove once. Then, press the list button three time. At this point, the front on the LCD screen will say HDDf...then after a few seconds the box will turn off by itself. That OK though, just leave it alone untill the time comes back on. Now, your box should be fixed.

Why yes, I am a cable guy ;)

Re:Explorer 8000

[luugi]

Time Warner (Austin, TX) is about to push a new firmware revision to all Explorer 8000 DRV boxes (non HD...for now) that will enable a drive meter that will tell you how much storage you have left. Also, this new firmware revision is supposed to fix quite a bit of other bugs as well. I will see if I can get the whole list and post the revision changes.

I can't wait! Thanks for the news.

"Not going to happen."

[timothy]

Re: TiVo offering its software for PCs.

OK, r-blo is (probably definitely) right that TiVo isn't about to do this, but just think if they did. There are all kinds of caveats that throw this from mere hypothetical to deep pipedream, *but* ...

- if it was boldy and straightforwardly limited to a certain subset of hardware, "guaranteed to work only with the following video cards and the listed capture devices" etc, and

- if it had just a few amenities *not* offered in the dedicated set-top box (say a TiVo-branded version of Firefox, including Chatzilla and some useful extensions and plug-ins for, say, bittorrent)

- it could deal well with removable storage - adding disks via USB2 or Firewire or SATA or whatever is the smartest fast, external bus

Then I think there'd be an small but real market for it. Most people would probably want the conventional, stereo-component TiVo, but I might pay for TiVo's software if it made easier the process of creating a Linux-based, good-quality, well Q-A'd PVR.

timothy

Cultural insensitivity

[lewko]

I've got a feeling they might be better off listening up. Especially TiVo, since we're all rooting for them anyway."

Listen up: In Australia, "rooting" is a slang verb which means "to have sex with".

This is why it is rare (though not unheard of) to hear of a devoted Australian cheerleader rooting for her whole team.

Perhaps this explains why we don't have Tivo in Australia?

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[seanadams.com]

See, this is what happens when stories get posted in what for all reasonable people would be the middle of the night.

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[Animaether]

How about considering that the article was written by an American and posted on an American site, catering largely to (hi TiVo), Americans ?
( Americans being US citizens and all that, in this case )

Lest you suppose that every time an American reads an Australian writing on an Australian website for an Australian audience about putting "shrimp on the barbie", that said American will ponder what lewd acts of bestiality the people down under perform on their children's toy dolls.

If you want some real 'cultural insensitivity', consider the swastika : Nazi symbol, or Hindu symbol ?

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[lewko]

If you want some real 'cultural insensitivity'

The Nazis weren't exactly known for their cultural sensitivity...

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[A_Non_Moose]

Listen up: In Australia, "rooting" is a slang verb which means "to have sex with".

Neat...gives a whole new meaning to the shirt that says "Got Root?".

Oh, and a hearty thanks to all the cap'ers out there that bittorrent shows I've missed.

Still looking for the 2hr season finale of Enterprise. Ah, well.

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[Grishnakh]

If you want some real 'cultural insensitivity', consider the swastika : Nazi symbol, or Hindu symbol ?

That depends on which way it's pointing. Same goes for the pentagram; if it's right side up, it's a Wiccan symbol. Upside-down, it's a Satanic symbol. Of course, most morons don't know the difference and don't know where these symbols originally came from.

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I know of Aussies and what I know of TiVo, if Australians had TiVo they'd be rooting for it.

Re:Cultural insensitivity

[Animaether]

Have you read the wiki entry at all ?
Or even looked this up ?

It can point either which way for both - though the Nazi's preferred the 'clockwise'-pointing variant.

So, no.. I don't think it does depend on which way it's pointing.

MythTV

[Sir Homer]

MythTV will rule my living room.

Ultimate TV anyone?

[jelwell]

"The digital video recorder revolution is on, with two players, Microsoft and Tivo, having emerged as the most likely candidates to dominate "

Yeah, and let's not forget Ultimate TV flopped miserably. However it should be noted that Microsoft usually gets things right on the third revision. So maybe after the media pc flops the next thing they come out with will soar.

Some comments about the article:
"2. Offer quad (four) tuners - two for regular broadcasts and two for HDTV. There should never be recording conflicts."
If 1 doesn't work, where do you come up with 4? Can you never have any conflicts with 2 tuners, 3, no apparently 4 is the magic number to defeat conflicts. What if I want to record 3 things at the same time! Holy cow, let's go to 6, or 8, or a ba-jillion.

"10. Provide a host of additional remote services including email, voicemail, caller ID, vehicle tracking, home automation (lights, home alarm security, window shades, thermostat), and "My RSS" feeds. "My Art" should also be included. Wasn't Bill Gates running around buying up all the digital rights to fine art a while back? "
This guy is obviously confusing his devices. You start integrating too many features and your device looks less like a simple and straight forward toaster and more like an jerry-rigged explosive device.

Things tivo apparently needs to do:
"2. Provide Ethernet connectivity to their HDTV unit and include the ability to share recorded files with a Windows-based PC. "
This has already been announced, it's called TiVo2Go.

"3. Provide a DVD burner with all units. Copying should be as simple as selecting a program and pressing "Burn to disc" on a menu."
This is a complaint? There exists TiVo's with DVD Burners and this guy is saying that people can't afford the addition of a DVD Burner shouldn't be able to buy a TiVo? Will you start paying out for these people? Part of what makes IBM compatible computers so attractive is you can get what you need without having to buy the top of the line hardware/features - like you can save a bundle by skipping the DVD burner option at dell.com.

"4. Create a "My Pictures" and "My Music" option for their HDTV units that can access a music and picture library via an Ethernet connection. The current HDTV unit does not allow the TiVo Home Media option."
This guy is missing a clue stick. The HDTV unit is licensed to DirectTV - so this issue is their problem, not TiVo's; remember the guy's initial comment, "like TiVo making a version of their software for PCs? Not going to happen." Ummm, what the @#$#? What makes you think this? TiVo has already licensed their software to manufacturers. What makes you think they wouldn't port it to a PC if there was a market for it? Furthermore, if they did port it to the PC and your PC didn't have a DVD burner would this guy blame TiVo for Dell selling you a computer without a DVD Burner?

"6. Create WiFi-enabled devices to access TiVo media from any television in the house. I would also mention this as a must for Microsoft as well, were it not for the fact that they have already announced that this technology is on it's way in the form of "extender" units due out by the end of this year."
You can buy a second Series 2 TiVo and whammo, you get this feature. Who said the "extender" unit is cheaper/better than just buying a second TiVo?

"7. Provide the ability to connect external hard drives. The robust 250GB drive on my Hughes HR10-250 will be a dinosaur in a few years, and you shouldn't have to hack into your TiVo box to upgrade storage."
While agree with the thought here his reason for it is absurd. Just because the drive will be old doesn't mean it will store less shows! In a few years you'll still be able to store just as many shows. TV is not like your PC. If the TV stream gets larger then in a few years your TiVo simply won't be able to record the larger stream (without down-converting to an older analogue/digital format) whether you have a bigger drive or

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some comments about the article: "2. Offer quad (four) tuners - two for regular broadcasts and two for HDTV. There should never be recording conflicts." If 1 doesn't work, where do you come up with 4? Can you never have any conflicts with 2 tuners, 3, no apparently 4 is the magic number to defeat conflicts. What if I want to record 3 things at the same time! Holy cow, let's go to 6, or 8, or a ba-jillion.

4 makes sense as it will always give you the option to at least watch one program in a certain format and record one simultaneously. Having just 3 analog tuners for example wouldn't enable you to watch or record any HD channel.

It might not fit your needs, but that is a different ball game, probably would for me, with all the crap there is on tv.

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[Seahawk]

However it should be noted that Microsoft usually gets things right on the third revision. So maybe after the media pc flops the next thing they come out with will soar.

1. Windows 95
2. Windows 98
3. Windows ME ;)

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I'm going to respond here 'cause you've got so many "My"s in your post, even though there a reiteration of the article.

Who the hell decided that everything on a computer had to begin with "My "? Why isn't "files" and "music" good enough. Why did we have to go with "Program Files", was "programs" or "bin" just not sexy enough? Did we have to prove we could put spaces in directory names? An why the hell can't those be freakin' system veriables. I've just about given up using "files" for my information because so many damn programs want to put everything in "My Documents". And have you ever had to find a driver or file from some of the MS widgets? The answer comes out "c:\wind...lname.dll" and there's no way to expand the column. Stupid f@cks.

Okay...I feel better now. But PLEEEEEEEEse don't extend the "My " to the living room.

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[Bakobull]

1. Windows 95
2. Windows 98
3. Windows 98 SE

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[jelwell]

You forgot Windows 3.1
Joseph Elwell.

Re:Ultimate TV anyone?

[Seahawk]

Nope - didnt forget it - but it would kind of have killed the joke :)

And guess what came before windows 3.1 ;)

The objective was to make a joke - nothing else :)

I'm rooting for Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

...epscially after they found out how many people got off from Janet Jackson's boobs by replaying it 50 times...wait a second...so they aren't the good guys?!!

Re:I'm rooting for Tivo

[sethstorm]

They arent the good guys if you're the FCC

Missing point

[hcdejong]

TiVo, MS and other PVR manufacturers should work to create an open standard for publishing programming guide information, and they should try to get all broadcasters to adopt this standard. No more US-only products!

Re:Missing point

[hcdejong]

(re: +1 Funny mod) Yeah, no selfrespecting monopoly will ever do this.
But the lack of EPG data (due to no standardization) is what's keeping PVRs from becoming popular in Europe.

We already know what has to be done to win.

[TheLoneCabbage]

It was the same done with PCs.

It is why Apple now holds less market share than Linux.

Allow 3rd party integration. Publish the freaking SDK! Let thousands of companies, and millions of hobbiests scratch that itch, and make your product that much better.

In a world where USB and WiFi are ubiquitous, making upgrades and add-ons should be consumer friendly. Now we just have to make it corporate friendly (so they will make the silly products!)

To not, is just a failure of imagination.

Re:We already know what has to be done to win.

[LordSah]

Media Center 2004 SDK Imagine that :)

Re:We already know what has to be done to win.

[LazyBoy]

Allow 3rd party integration. Publish the freaking SDK!

ROKU

You never know

[AvantLegion]

Me in 2004: "TiVO wins! Microsoft Media Center is a piece of crap!"
Me in 1995: "Netscape wins! Microsoft Internet Explorer is a piece of crap!"

(The sad part is, the second half of the 2nd statement remains true...)

What if TiVo merged...

[mrchaotica]

with Apple? Imagine being able to sync your TV shows with a video iPod or your PowerBook!

Re:What if TiVo merged...

[mdemirha]

Merging Tivo and Apple seems like a dream of an Apple fanboy with no reason. What good a company like Apple can bring to Tivo. It can only make things worse by making everything proprietary and useless. Also, TivoToGo will allow you to transfer your videos to your PC/laptop. It is not that Tivo is unable to implement that, it is just that they dont have the muscles to fight with the damn RIAA and they waited for approval for a long time. Now they have the approval, they offically told that TivoTogo will be ready pretty soon.

Re:King Kong represented the Black man in America

[Anonymous Coward]

Factoid: King Kong's roar was produced by playing a lions roar backwards, and at half speed. You learn a lot from Futurama DVD Commentaries.

Microsoft's step backwards?

[akgoatley]

From the article:

Microsoft is winning in the portability game. It is much easier to get content off of your MCE box than a TiVo.

Will the [MPAA/Sony/whatever] like this? I know we all thought Microsoft were going to buddy up with the producers of copyright by pushing DRM, but making portability easier than with TiVo? This is an interesting move following their "Trusted [DRMed] Computing" initiative.
Then again, they'll probably foist DRM onto it anyway so that the content you take off it is still heavily restricted.
-Ashton

Re:Microsoft's step backwards?

[Steve B]

Will the [MPAA/Sony/whatever] like this? I know we all thought Microsoft were going to buddy up with the producers of copyright by pushing DRM, but making portability easier than with TiVo?

Competition forces them to, well, compete, even if it means getting the **AA's little pink noses a bit out of joint.

stop the obligatory MS bashing!

[esac17]

I for one am rooting for media center. It has more features, the interface is cleaner, the guide is smoother and above all I can _easily_ upgrade the system to incorporate more room for my shows, or adding more tuners (v.Next) or if a new tv tuner comes out that just might offer a little more video quality, I can get it!

ReplayTV is doing something right.

[karmatic]

I've used Windows Media Center, Tivo, and a ReplayTV extensively, and while Tivo has the nicest looking interface, I've settled on the ReplayTV.

First off, (in medium quality), the ReplayTV records in MPEG-2, at a bitrate and resolution that (usually) follow the DVD spec. Sometimes the bitrate goes a little out of spec, but that's not too hard to do. No DRM, and the files can be streamed over the network. Having an ethernet port come standard was a good idea.

Automatic Commercial Skip, and Internet sharing are very nice features, trivial to re-enable. Also, adding a second hard drive took less than 5 minutes, only needing a Y power adapter, an IDE cable, and RTVpatch.

Also, the MyReplayTV site lets me change which shows are recorded while I'm on the road.

I got the RTV a month ago, and I'd seen people raving on about the Replay for quite some time. Now I can see why. While Tivo and Windows Media Center can record shows, neither offers quite the features the ReplayTV does. Activation sucks, but that's what ebay is for.

You can pick up a 40gb for $150 (+ $300 activation), and throw in 2 big hard drives. Not bad for something that actually made watching TV worthwile again. Before, I watched TV when I had a continuous block of time, and hoped something decent was on. Now, I watch TV when I have time, and have a choice of which episode I want to watch, of what show I want to watch.

Re:ReplayTV is doing something right.

[mjpaci]

DirecTivo, what I have, is the same quality as watching DirecTV live. The Tivo records the digital stream and decodes it when you watch it in the same manner the the DirecTV set-top-box does. No loss. This will be the great advantage of cable-card TiVos...if that ever happens.

--Mike

Re:ReplayTV is doing something right.

[jbarr]

Yea, you are correct, ReplayTV did do it right, but with a stress on "did".

DNNA, the new owners of ReplayTV have stated that they will be selling off all current ReplayTV inventory and focusing on a higher end ($2000+) multi-media server system (Do a search on the ReplayTV section of the AVS Forums for details.) While the end result may, in fact, be a killer system, the fact remains that "consumer-level" PVR's are still "TiVo-dominated".

The upside for ReplayTV owners is that DNNA also said that they are persuing several hardware companies and software licensees, so we MAY see other ReplayTV-based products from third-party companies. For existing ReplayTV owners, the other good news is that DNNA said that will continue to provide ReplayTV's EPG (Electronic Program Guide) service and would like to expand its availability to other companies.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE proponent of ReplayTV products. I have owned three ReplayTV boxes over the past 4 years, and I have posted several "tips" on my Jim's Tips Web site. ReplayTV has survived several buyouts and company changes, and still holds promise. It's just not necessarily clear as to what the future will be...

Re:ReplayTV is doing something right.

[karmatic]

Oh, you. I saw your site before - the RTV->DVD page is pretty good, but there was another one online I liked better.

As for the future support, RTV would be foolish to abandon it's customer base (not that there is a law against being foolish). Their market currently is not the $2000 people, and they have an established customer base. All a company would need to do is embed the RTV OS in a HDTV-Ready box to make a profit - if they made a DirecTV, Dish, and Digital Cable compatible replay, people would beat a path to their door.

Unfortunatly, the digital television providers would want some form of draconian DRM on it.

We're rooting for Tivo -- for now

[btempleton]

And certainly against Microsoft. Not hard to root for them against MS. I love my Tivo too, but when the time comes, they are doing things to make me jump to another system like MythTV, Freevo or even commercial systems like BeyondTV etc.

Tivo has:

a) Followed the wishes of hollywood, and made it hard to get video out of the box even though a PC card would have recorded it plainly to disk.

b) Only put in 30 second skip as a hidden feature (that goes away every reboot) and not put in more advanced commercial elimination

c) Put in monitoring technologies that today strip your identity off the data they send up but need not do so forever.

d) Locked up units version 2 and later to make them very difficult to modify or improve.

e) Not provided any software improvements for version 1 owners in quite some time.

f) Designed their new system that does let you move video to a PC to require you to have a dongle! Then it lets you burn it to a DVD where you could read it back, so it's not security, it's just a pain in the ass.

Tivo does a good job but they are on the path to being a lesser citizen. The cable companies are using their monopolies to control what PVR you have with cable in many locations (though cable card holds hope.) The rest of the world may decide to move to open source pvrs.

Why both TiVo and Microsoft will lose ...

[SimplyCosmic]

... cable and satellite companies.

Most of the cable companies provide their own PVR hardware to users, with the twin advantage of being a few dollars cheaper and coming from the people who provide you with the service.

Sure, we here know that their hardware is generally rather simplistic in their features compared to TiVo, but your average person doesn't realize that TiVo is more than just a glorified digital VCR, so the three dollars they save a month seems like a good deal.

Now that DirecTV has plans to switch to one of TiVo's competitors in the form of NDS Group Plc, I fear we're going to see the same happen in the world of satellite as well.

So, in the future, TiVo and Microsoft will be competing against products provided by the people who bring them their cable/dish service, who will have the home-field advantage.

Re:Why both TiVo and Microsoft will lose ...

[Overzeetop]

The day DTV drops TiVo is the day I cancel service. If I wanted a generic box, I would have already saved the money and switched to E*.

Ultimate Media Center

[ArcticCelt]

"The digital video recorder revolution is on, with two players, Microsoft and Tivo, having emerged as the most likely candidates to dominate."

When they say Microsoft they are speaking of course of the "Ultimate Media Center" : The modded & hacked Xbox with 250gig hard disk and Xbox Media center, right?

;)


ps: Yeah, yeah I know for the recording, don't bother to point that out just to ruin my comment :)

OT: More Conderned with War of Streaming

[Nishi-no-wan]

I'm currently more concerned with the war on streaming, and am getting more and more depressed as alternative streams to MS Media Player are slowly disappearing.

The latest to go was Comedy Central. I've enjoyed The Daily Show over the Internet for the past few years, but that came to an abrupt end a couple of weeks ago when all of the newer streams were in MS Media Player format only. I asked if this was temporary, and mentioned that the link to "change player preferences" didn't work in FireFox, and their indirect reply was to change the media player pop-up window to no longer give a choice of media formats. It's Microsoft or nothing.

I've tried VLC (get audio, no video) and MPlayer, but neither work. Unless the /. crowd can somehow campaign for the return of Real streams, especially now that it's been Opened, I'm afraid that it's time to remove Comedy Central from my daily opened tab group.

My childish stuff

[JamesTRexx]

I wish he wouldn't recommend using all the "My ..." names for categories.
It feels so immature.

Re:My childish stuff

[Neuticle]

I'll second that!
I mean, for heavens sakes, It's my machine: if the folder doesn't say "My Pictures" am I going to think someone ELSE snuck their vacation pictures onto my hard-drive?

Putting "My" in front of everything is as dumb as putting "e" or "i" in front of it. All of which are only slightly less dumb than "Xtreem" labling.

Slashdot is fucked Index Index Index

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at this, a triplicate post in the same day. Index, Index, Index indeed.
The only thing lamer than Slashdot is the fuckwits that waste their time reading and posting on it.

Re:Slashdot is fucked Index Index Index

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah why hasn't anyone been able to explain this yet??? It's happened before as well!

Not quite

[tgd]

The problem with myth tv is simple... unless my time is valued less than an illegal migrant worker's, a mythtv box costs an order of magnitude more than either of the options he mentions.

Until someone has a MythTV distribution I can boot off a CD, answer a few questions and have up and working on a specific set of non-hacked-together hardware, its a toy for college students and people who haven't found things other than hacking their computers to entertain them. Thats a pretty big majority.

Linux would never take over the desktop if all we had was Slackware 1.0. And MythTV in its current incarnation will never even amount to a blip on the radar of the consumer PVR market.

Re:Not quite

[Grooby]

How about KnoppMyth? I got it setup within 20 minutes.

Re:Not quite

[Howski]

Try Knoppmyth from http://my.settopbox.tv/ Howski

Re:Not quite

[WarmBoota]

you must be new here....

Perhaps you missed

KnoppMyth and Dave and Dina

Myth tv coooool. Tivo - MS evil !!!

[lucason]

I installed myth on a spare pc and got everything up and running in less than an hour.

I don't know what you're bitching about, the Myth tv installation boots from CD, has a few questions for you and Presto it's been working since. And all I had to give up is 1000Mhz duron and a 200G HD.

Add a RF wireless keyboard and RF A/V sender receiver to connect the TV's and you've got mean ass PVR system.

Add to that fact that tivo doesn't exist in europe and you've got 100% of the market for Mythtv in this neck of the world.

Re:Myth tv coooool. Tivo - MS evil !!!

[Yer Mom]

Except for that part of Europe that is the UK, of course... although, since the chance of us getting the Series 2 TiVo is about zero, we'll probably be joining you on MythTV sooner or later.

Re:Myth tv coooool. Tivo - MS evil !!!

[Paul Carver]

I want a DIVX to TV playback device and I have a VIA Eden based PC in a tiny case too small to hold a TV capture card. MythTV won't install because the only options are "back end" which requires a capture card and "front end" which requires a separate back end box. I haven't found a way to use MythTV as a playback only box.

My plan was to have a back end box, but knoppmyth wouldn't boot on one machine I had available and on the other machine it boots, proceeds through much of the install and then the install simply stops without error and drops to a command prompt. The command prompt is functional, but the machine won't boot when I restart it.

I tried to install it using based on Debian, but the apt source that was recommended didn't exist. I tried the Gentoo based install which is claimed to be very easy (although slow) but Gentoo wouldn't boot on the box I tried so I reinstalled Win2K which is working fine.

My MythTv plans are on hold for now. I've invested at least 20 or 30 hours with absolutely zero to show for it. My Tivo has been working great for several years and less that 2 hours worth of "maintenance" in that time and part of that was testing its dialup over AT&T CallVantage VoIP when I switched off my POTS line.

If my Series 1 Tivo were to die of a hardware problem I would not hesitate to buy a new Series 2 Tivo. I haven't looked closely at Tivo's home media option since it doesn't apply to my old Tivo, but if I got a new Tivo I probably wouldn't hesitate to spend the extra money. MythTV has cost me $1000-2000 in time and underutilized hardware. (That's just MythTV. I've done lots of experimentation with Linux over the years and most of that taught me useful things. My MythTV installs just failed without teaching me much of anything so I have to call that a waste of time).

I think there's an element of luck in the "I installed MythTV in an hour" stories. There's lots of hardware out there that won't run MythTV and you won't know whether yours will unless you invest time either trying to install or researching hardware.

Buying a Hauppage 350 card (definitely listed as supported) was a waste of money unless I identify what other component is preventing me from installing MythTV.

I bought the Hauppage specifically because the ATI All In Wonder in my Windows box is not supported by MythTV.

Re:Myth tv coooool. Tivo - MS evil !!!

[lucason]

I'm always sorry to hear stuff like this...
the first problem was that you tried to install Myth on a running system instead of using the all-in-one solution known as Knoppmyth. It's a Myth tv installation on a knoppix system. That installs from 1 bootable CD.

In any case, why you would install myth without a capturecard for playback only is beyond me. Just install mplayer and get it over with.

As for tv-out. Forget ALL tv-out cards. Even the ones that work are too much trouble. Go instead for external VGA to TV convertor boxes. Mine (trust brand) cost 50$ and converts video up to 1024 by 768. Without any drivers configuration or anything. Nothing can beat that.

Hardware I used. AMD duron 1000 Sound on board, AGP trident blade 3d, Capturecard miro PC TV. A freind of mine has a Hauppage, and it work without any problem.

My advice is simple. Don't try to install Myth on a full system. But use the knoppix distro that was specifically designed for it.

I hope you will give it one more go. I think it's worth it.

FYI: for a "fully" (wel mostly fully) automatic installation goto http://www.mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html

Re:Myth tv coooool. Tivo - MS evil !!!

[LazyBoy]

I want a DIVX to TV playback device...

MythTV won't install because...

Checkout geexbox.

MCE vr Myth

[lucason]

I must disagree.

I too have used both and MCE just simply didn't cut it.

Firstly my hardware wan't supported. MCE actually has pretty limited driver support. And the CPU and memory requirement were much higher than Myth.

Myth gave me the added fexibility to add EPG for my region which was not supported by MCE either.

The programs recorded by Myth are exportable. You can export files to VCD SVCD WMV DIVX etc... Open up a samba share and you can start copiing all files to wherever you want. MCE doesn't do that.

Long story short? I installed MCE and removed it days later. Installed Myth and have had months of viewing pleasure.

Re:MCE vr Myth

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, MCE is only being distributed as a bundle with approved hardware. It sounds like you loaded MCE on a non-approved system. No wonder it didn't work for you.

I can't argue the benefits of Myth, 'cause I haven't used it (tho it seems to have a TiVo-like following).

I wouldn't be suprised if MCE wasn't perfect, but neither is TiVo or Myth. It just so happens that MCE has the features the GP likes, and Myth has features you like (like the fact that it runs on your hardware). I like my TiVo 'cause I never have to mess with it, and the wife can use it without my help, and without blaming me if there's a glitch. That last one is a must-have feature I haven't seen in a PC solution yet.

Re:MCE vr Myth

[caswelmo]

You hit the nail on the head right there:

...and the wife can use it without my help...

My current largest "problem" with my techy-home is getting past my wife's paranoia about new technologies. I want to make her old computer into a Linux media server. Problem: she doesn't understand this whole "Linux" thing. Nevermind she hasn't used the thing for a year. Nevermind that I could reinstall XP if things didn't work out. Nevermind that all her data is already in three other places. She doesn't understand it & would rather not deal with it.

I find that whenever I start to think about a new tech project at home, it has to fit into her lifestyle as well. I'm not bitching (much), I'm just stating a fact. She doesn't want to learn to use anything complicated & doesn't want me screwing stuff up. So I can't hack the TiVo, or the X-box, or the coffee-maker ;^). I just leave stuff alone and everybody (read her) is happy.

So basically, this means I need TiVo to provide all the interfaces for me, and just let me mess with stuff off on my own. Unfortunately, I have a DirecTV box so I can't do a damn thing. This is my only qualm so far with DirecTV.

There's something to be said for using the "dumb" solution though.

Re:MCE vr Myth

[JoeBar]

You gotta upgrade your wife dude..

Re:MCE vr Myth

[lucason]

Correct I installed it on simple hardware after downloading it from MSDN.

I've used other software solutions as well, like showshifter or smart-TV on an XP box.

As I've never used TiVo, I can't comment on that, but between MCE, Showshifter, Smart-TV and Myth, only Myth passed the mom-test. (or even the wife test).

P.S. (actually even the baby girl test, my 26 month old daughter can select her own cartoons. no kidding.)

Re:MCE vr Myth

[walt-sjc]

Get yourself another DirecTivo box. They are only $79. Hack that. Once it's working great, THEN let your wife at it. That's what I did with my tivos, and (linux based) asterisk phone system. If you let them at the "beta" version, it's just gonna piss them off, and turn them off from any other technology thing you want to do.

Re:MCE vr Myth

[spronk]

Install MythTV on it and get it all configured before you let her touch it. It's VERY easy to use, no Linux experiance required. If my wife and 12 yr old daughter can use it without me telling them how I'm sure you wife can manage it.

MythTV missing from comparison

[JPMRaptor]

I wish MythTV(http://www.mythtv.org/) (or another of the OS DVRs) in the mix, especially since one of the Tivo requests he's got is for a PC version of their software.

Re:Poll Troll Toll

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! Marez Rule!

Re:King Kong represented the Black man in America

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember!

KING KONG
Died
For Your Sins!

-- Principia Discordia.

HDTV Recording

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, it's all about recording HDTV. I've become so used to (aka dependent on) my ReplayTV, that I simply don't watch live shows now... But I'm getting the jones for HDTV goodness, especially with Football around the corner. Without getting into the Cable/Satellite debate, as soon as Comcast offers the Moto HDTV-DVR cable box in my area (it's reputed to be in MD and VA and other places) I'm sold!

Dish Network Offerings

[GweeDo]

I am suprised that every time an MS vs Tivo article comes out no one mentions anything about the offerings from Dish Network. They have some rather innovative products like the DVR 522. It is a dual tuner DVR, so it can watch two live streams, record two streams, record two + watch two pre-recorded and more. It also (if you hadn't already realized) can output to two TV's. I have it powering my second tv in my office. So you can share your recorded shows across those two tv's. This winter/next spring they will be releasing the DVR 942. It is a HD DVR that is also a dual tuner model. It goes a step further since the secondary output on the 942 is SD it will automatically downsample all HD content to be able to be watched on your second non-HDTV as well. So while Tivo does have some nice features like Name Based Recordings (come on E*...get this implemement!) they are bringing some really cool toys to the table. Oh yeah...and the 522 is free with no contract ;) So you can't really beat the price!

TiVo's in transition it seems...

[applemasker]

In the last few weeks, I've noticed some structural changes at TiVo (both as an owner and a consumer) - first, they enabled their Home Media Option for all subscribers, before this, it was $99, and then $79 to activate these features. Personally, I don't use the music or photo sharing (poor interfaces for both) but it's made me consider buying a second TiVo so the two can share recording capacity, especially since they've dropped the prices on Series 2 PVRs to as low as $50 recently. At that price for a 40 hour unit, it's worth it just for the hard drive and to avoid the hassle of upgrading the old one.

They're also planning a broader media blitz, which is something new for them, evidently to roll out just before or in conjunction with the TivoToGo service. If it's part of a bigger strategy to increase market share, it would go hand-in-glove with the almost-giving-away prices on some boxes.

That said, TiVo has to walk a fine line between being user-friendly, functional to consumers, while still paying lip-service to its corporate masters and brodcasters. In the past, these compromises have lead to the software and box being locked up and encrypted up the wazoo.

TiVo must have recognized that if they truly satisfied the geeks, made the box accessable and programming easy to extract, they could be the next MythTV, or worse, the first on the INDUCE Act chopping block.

Although TiVo has a strained relationship with the broadcasters, media giants, etc., it lacks the market penetration to be a real threat to them. So, while the 30-second skip is an irritant, there is probably an overall negligable impact in terms of actual eyes that no longer see the commercials.

If TiVo could gain a reasonable market share (not impossible, but with the arena becoming more crowed, certainly more difficult) and did become more of a media gorilla, then it would be a real battle to see if the PVR's time-shifting (a non-infringing use, at least for the moment) would be enough to bootstrap its other functions (burn-to-DVD, stream to other TV, for example) into the "fair use" category.

TiVoToGo might be the first step in this direction. Big Media may not have any choice but to attempt to stop its deployment, maybe with a temporary injunction, lest the camel's nose get under their tent.

TiVo Suggestions

[Anonymous Coward]

You can kind of do TiVo suggestion #6 already.

Check out my article over at http://www.tivoblog.com/index.php/archives/2004/07 /31/sharing-your-tivo-with-multiple-tvs

As far as suggestion #7 is concerned, I agree this is a much needed feature. Somebody that wants to add space to their TiVo shouldn't have to open up the box and install a new drive.

Nice set of suggestions...I hope TiVo is listening.

Alex
http://www.tivoblog.com

Screw them both use mythtv

[Jhawkeye83]

www.mythtv.org

I'm not rooting for Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't buy a Tivo in Canada anyway.

Who should TiVo merge with?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple should by TiVo! Think of the possibilities...

I think (the underrated) ReplayTV is best.

[nontrivial]

Before MythTV existed I worked periodically on my own PVR project. I wasn't willing to pay for a Tivo subscription, and I wanted to be able to get the video off the Tivo without hassle. I am an avid hacker for things I care about, but for whatever reason I wasn't that motivated when it comes to PVR's. I just want the damn thing to be easy and work. So I bought a ReplayTV because there is third party (Java) software to make any PC look and act like a ReplayTV. And with a lifetime subscription a ReplayTV is a hell of a deal.

The cool thing about the ReplayTV is that it's a lot simpler than the Tivo, and it requires NO effort to get the video off. I have a cron job that moves some video from the ReplayTV to my computer every night through the built in ethernet port. I tried MythTV before buying the ReplayTV, but at the time it wasn't that great. I especially hated dealing with the way it got it's show listings. But I would still prefer the ReplayTV because it is small, quiet, effecient, intuitive, has few bells and whistles that you don't need, the interface is outstanding, and in general it's really easy to use.

UK part of Europe?

[lucason]

I didn't realize... Do they?

;-)

The best choices for a TiVo Inc. merger are...

[JeffTL]

(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, an accountant, or a suit of any sort. But I play one on Slashdot. Nor do I hold any stock whatsoever. I wrote this last night while the DB was down).

1. Apple. They're going into A/V right now with the iPods and the various iLife stuff including the music store. Still no DVR offering though, either as part of OS X or as a box. Solution: buy TiVo, including most of the employees. Either manage as a wholly owned subsidiary or even better bring it into the fold and get the fruit on the boxes. People know who Apple is and almost everyone has QuickTime and therefore generally sort of has reason to trust them.

2. Sony, Pioneer, or Toshiba. All of these have had relationships with TiVo, and I believe some or all may already own part of it. Again, these are brands people know even better than TiVo. Most people have had a positive experience with Sony and/or Toshiba, and Pioneer seems pretty well known.

3. A high-end audio company, such as Harman/Kardon or Bose. I think these guys are making money and are already in the stuff-you-use-with-your-TV business. Problem is that they don't have much retail distribution, so TiVo boxes would be in few more places beyond where they already are.

4. A non-Apple computer company, such as Dell or Gateway. Very unlikely, since most of these are more likely to be promoting Windows Media Center. Though Dell sells TiVo boxes on the side so among this crowd they'd be most likely, particularly if Media Center fails.

5. A media company, such as Viacom or Virgin. This would mean bigtime cuts in the relative user-respect of TiVo -- scratch the DVD burning &c plans.

6. An electronics company not listed above -- GE might be looking for a new market, to go along with telephones, light bulbs, and everything else known to man.

7. Microsoft. I'll let this speak for itself.

Re:The best choices for a TiVo Inc. merger are...

[CoffeeDregs]

The biggest problem is that Tivo doesn't have any substantial competitive advantage...

A network of programming data? Media Center can pick that up and I'm sure that the data could be picked up off some net source pretty easily anyway.

A cute UI? My Sony PS2 has a cute, functional UI, so the UI could be replicated.

A killer patent portfolio? Probably a nice asset, but I wouldn't want to be the one to sue Sony or MS over it.

>1. Apple
Interesting, but Apple isn't exactly known for taking other peoples' technology and rebranding it Apple. Not Invented Here was Invented At Apple. Jeez, even when they adopt a standard, they rebrand it! (see Airport, Firewire?)

>2. Sony, Pioneer, or Toshiba
Shoulda done it years ago. Why didn't Philips acquire Tivo? Probably because they understood that Moore's law would make the hardware cheaper and the software cheaper, so why buy the cow when the milk is getting free-er.

>4. A non-Apple computer company, such as Dell or Gateway.
Probably not. Just as Walmart did to retailing, Dell has squeezed all of the fun and margin out of the computer business. There's no way that Gateway can go spend a bunch of speculative money when their margins are approaching 0%.

>5. A media company, such as Viacom or Virgin.
The media companies know that the cable and satellite broadcasters are jealously guarding their media and are opposing the ability of digital broadcast decode until the broadcasters can replicate the interesting services using set top boxes and central office media server. Go see how many add-in cards that decode digital cable exist for your PC... Europeans have them. The US doesn't.

>7. Microsoft
No way. I can't think of a great reason, but a little voice in my head keeps yelling "danger! anti-trust! danger! anti-trust!".

--- Dregs?

TiVo w/ DirecTV

[KB1GHC]

i have a TiVo, but it's the only DVR that works with DirecTV, but i like TiVo i can't believe i ever lived without it, i can't believe i ever lived without DirecTV either.

Price/Pain Ratio is Maxed Out at the Moment...

[eufreka]

I recently bought 3 (!?!?!?!) TiVos for a total of $150 (off their summer refurb special @ $50 each). I have the HMO/MRV option for a total of $27 a month. So the first year cost of 3 24-hour-a-day (Internet accessible) PVRs with guide/etc. is $474. A little hacking time (and no additional hardware) will get me video extraction to my PC network (unless I don't bother and just wait for TiVoTOgo). They setup out of the box and on my home network in 30 minutes... I had been struggling with the hold build-your-own PVR (looking at freevo/mythtv/etc.) for months, but poof! I can now wait a YEAR to see how things progress. I could NOT have built ONE really good multi-tuner PVR for $474 worth of hardware! The TiVo just works! (And my wife was addicted in 24 hours, so there was no "toyz blowback" this time--priceless!)

RePlay did have some firsts...

[MadAnthony02]

Tivo may be pretty close in terms of 30 second skip with RePlay, but RePlay did for a while offer commerical advance, which would automatically skip commercials. The 50x0 series models have it, but because of lawsuit threats they pulled it on the 55x0 models (although it's rumored that if you image a 55x0 drive with a 50x0 image, it comes back).

RePlay was also the first to offer built-in ethernet networking - I know Tivo has it now, but they didn't always have it, and for a while they had it but it was an extra $100 for the home media option.

To be fair, RePlay does occasionally run ads when the machine is paused, but only for themselves

I know people love their Tivo's, but it's good to have competition in any segment of the market, including DVR's

Re:RePlay did have some firsts...

[dealsites]

I have the Replay TV 5040 and the commercial skip rocks. I quickly bought it as the 55xx series was being introduced and the 50x0 series was being phased out. I couldn't be happier. Although my next choice would have been a MythTV setup.

Quick Tivo and replay links for best prices:
Tivo
Replaytv
Enjoy!

Price

[Izago909]

I think that with tivo becoming the de facto name of PVRs by the general public, they already have an advantage over MS. Imagine you are average Joe consumer and you see these 2 boxes sitting side by side. Which one do you pick up first? If they can undercut MS on OEM and box pricing they have a great chance. They can also give the people what they want without losing control of their product.

Work with hardware manufacturers and sell the tivo brand on their product. Guaranteed to always be compatible and zero config. They could make a low cost home video editing station. An ATI all in wonder, two more tuners, a CD/DVD burner, a sound blaster, and some A/V editing software would let you keep 3 permanently attached devices (2 VCR's and DVD player) and have anotehr dongle with stereo audio, S-video, and composite video inputs and outputs. They can continue to sell the manufactured tivo, and add an expanded enthusiast crowd who will do it for the hacking, or their status among the nerd ranks.

Imagine if they even published some of the API's to let others add features their OS and app suite lacks. They could also allow inexpensive licensing of more powerful APIs that would directly compete with the functionality of their suite; much like Symantec does with Windows. If they play their cards right, they can dominate this market. MS needs a competitor in every field. Imagine where IE or outlook would be now if Netscape never lost their hold (around IE 4 or 5, I believe).

What about RePlayTV ?

[CompSurfer]

RePlayTV anyone? Personally I have a RePlayTV unit and prefer it over Tivo. While I've never spent time with a Tivo, I've heard they try to think and guess what their owner wants to watch and then goes about recording things it picks. I don't know if that's true or not. Tivo users can you inform me please? RePlayTV records only what you tell it to. And it can stream over a network to a PC. (DVArchive anyone?) Maybe the new generation Tivos can do this too, I haven't looked into it.

MS vs. Tivo

[tisme]

I feel sorry for TIVO because while MS is busy drawing up plans on how to capture the international market, TIVO has hardly begun to expand much outside of the United States.

Dtivo's all alone...

[Cramer]

• The fact that the Ethernet ports are disabled on the Hughes HR10-250 is simply ridiculous.

Indeed. Talk to DirectTV. THEY are the reason it's disabled. Until they change the terms of their contract with Tivo, Inc., the USB ports on DTivos will remain off, and there will be no Home Media Option.

• Provide a DVD burner with all units.

Well, this one is problematic. Tivo, Inc. only makes the software. Others design, build, and market the recorders. Last time I looked, only RCA had a "Tivo Powered (tm)" DVD recorder/DVR. There are a few with DVD players.

• Offer a software package for sale that will run on any Windows-based PC.

That's a joke, right? The Tivo is not a windows box (everyone knows it's linux based.) Please stop with the crazy talk. Linux companies don't "do" windows programming. Besides, the tivo software is very closely tied to the hardware and 100% unstable as all hell if you start poking it with a stick -- this is the nature of pure embedded software; why bloat the code to handle the unexpected (read: "not supposed to happen"'s)?

• 7. ...

While I agree, one should have the option of external, "archival", storage... The USB ports on a tivo are USB1.1 and thus, way too slow. If they were to add USB2 and/or firewire, we'd be cooking. ...I don't agree with the "having to hack" comment. The tivo is a self-contained unit; one should never crack it open. (Have you "hacked" your NTSC TV to display HDTV?)

• 8. ...

Hah! The tivo is not a multi-user box. I don't expect it to become one, either. It hardly has enough space ("MFS Application" region, limit of around 500,000 "inodes") to handle one user's preferences over a few years; adding users will only magnify the problem. (Honestly, it's small problem currently. But I know of at least one dtivo now unable to complete a daily call due to lack of space and the unwillingness of it's owner to erase it.)

0) MS & TiVo get sued by RIAA, MPAA, Disney et

[javaxman]

Yea, clearly, all *consumers* want the features this guy lists, but key among them are the ability to *gasp* actually have fair use rights, and be able to do with digital content what we can now do with analog content, i.e. permanently store it on whatever format we choose.

For HD, this means going against the FCC's decision on the broadcast flag, not to mention getting sued by the RIAA, MPAA, etc. I doubt even M$ wants *that* lawsuit, and until your average 'merkin voter wakes up and takes back their congresscritters from big business ( read: ain't gonna happen ), the company that provides us directly with these features that we want will be sued into oblivion.

Land of the Free?!?
Whoever told you that is your Enemy!

vcr forever

[Anonymous Coward]

I see no need for tivo or others as long as they require a landline and my vcr works. Why pay x amount a month to record something my vcr will do for free?

I use cell phones and cable internet and have no need for a landline. After taxes and such it is 40 bucks a month for a landline just to use tivo, then I would have to pay tivo their fees. They are crazy if they expect me to pay 50+ a month for both services. Maybe one of these years they will get smart and use internet access for their service. Then maybe I may consider it but only after my vcr breaks down.

Actually, you are wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

He has already (several tiems recently) said he dosent mind, in fact encourages people to tape/record/distribute/etc. his show. The radio stations and sponsers wont let it on the internet. Why? Because the radio station wants to know that if a person in theit broadcast area wants to hear Stern, their only option is to listen to THEIR broadcast with THEIR commercials (i.e. most commercials are local, not national, and thus must be sold by the station which purchases the syndicated show.)

Tivo's not all good.... Say NO to TIVO

[cyphire]

I was a Tivo user from almost the beginning. Here are a couple of major issues with Tivo - and why I will NOT recommend them. 1st - Customer support is non-existant. Try calling Tivo - To avoid customer contact they have installed the absolutly worst IVR customer support system. Their attitude over the years has gotten progressively worse - they make Intuit look customer centric customer freindly! 2nd - When new hardware comes out they do not allow the transfer of their service. They have done this during very short periods but they never mention the cost of their 'lifetime' programming in their advertisements... It's pure bait and switch. When the unit wears out or is just not pulling it's weight, fork over money for a new box and a new lifetime contract ($250) 3rd - My biggest problem with Tivo is the automatic downloading of 'enhanced content' (PURE ADVERTISING CRAP). I live in CA and my Tivo would try to change channels on me at 1:17am (4:17 am on the east coast so NY people don't have this problem.) I like to channel surf so hitting the record this show button would lock me into a specific show. I know this does not sound like a big deal, but for years Tivo would make a phone call to download the schedules.... Tivo changed it so that they would piggyback the schedules along with programs that you are forced to download (by it changing the channel without permission).... It trys 3 times after 1am and I am a late night person... Made the system useless for me after all those years. Bottom line - best software as a PVR, but the good company of yesteryear is absolutly a nightmare to deal with and are lying to their original fans who made them what they are (by recommendations). I now have a Dish 921 - Dual channel HDTV PVR and it is both awesome and very, very flawwed - but at least they arent changing the rules and ignoreing their customers....