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Linux Desktop Guide
codergeek42 writes "The International Open-Source Network has created a desktop manual aimed at end-users with little or no prior knowledge of PCs. This manual goes through using The Fedora Project to do things from file-management to using the internet (as in browsing the WWW and using email), how to use the OpenOffice.org office suite, and even a basic intro to using the shell. This is definitely a step in the right direction for GNU/Linux, and the Free Software and Open-Source Software movements. And the cool part is that the entire thing is under an attributions-required OSI-approved Creative Common license, and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats."
For a first-time user?
Hey, this is great, you've got your first Linux system. Whoops! Time's up. If you want security updates, it's time to wipe and reinstall!
the entire thing is [...] available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats.
That's one way of ensuring the user has broadband and a large enough hard drive...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Wouldn't something like Mandrake or SuSe be better for beginners?
bittorrent.. anyone? anyone??
I think this is a step in the right direction. Now i'm not for dumbing down linux, but I think there should be a user-friendly (ouch) option on some of the major distrobustions so that people who know little about and will not learn about computer systems will use linux. If more common people use linux than more governments and institutions will, meaning more donations for projects, more press, and better defence against the Microsofts and SCOs out there.
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.
Not bit torrent, but it'll have to do...
Google Cache
-jim
...please invest in a link checker. You can't be trusted to get them right.
http://www.openoffce.org/
http://www.openoffice.org/
I wonder if manual/guide is the solution to the 'problems' in desktop territory.
Will grandma get such guide and follow through step by step command lines to achieve something?
Uselessful technology (Air-Charged
This kind of stuff is a great step in the right direction, but lots of people in the target demographic would still prefer a dead-tree version. I'd really like to see a couple of those big, glossy, step-by-step picture books put out for Linux. There's a bunch for Win/Mac already, so I'm sure it'll just be a matter of time.
Not good enough. All the files are only for download, and are not in Google's cache. When I saw the story, my first though was, "The idiot referenced binary files on Slashdot!" I'm trying to grab the PDFs and put them on BitTorrent, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Well slashdoted to death.
Any mirrors?
Been using Windows XP Home for 3 years, and never looked back.
Not enough time to look back between security updates, and A/V, anti-spyware and personal firewall software installations I guess...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Does Linux have top home marketshare? No.
Does Linux have top education marketshare? No.
So is the chance that people's very first system will be Linux high? No.
Does this make this whole thing pointless? Yes.
What do stores sell a new user if they don't know what they want? Windows. Therefore they will learn Windows. The only way they'll find out about this report is if they go online and find it, and then if they're not a techy user, they're not going to want to install something like an OS for themselves. This is a pointless exercise to make the open-source community hope for an influx of new users, when the fact is while stores still sell Windows machines, while mummy and daddy still have a Windows machine in the living room, while little Johnny's school uses Windows machines... Microsoft's monopoly is self-sustaining.
It doesn't matter how many guides you put out for Linux aimed at the 'new user', there are no users who've never used a computer before who are likely to run Linux - they're going to run what the store tells them to run, or what the computers in their house already run - Windows. The monopoly self-sustains. Unless all us nerds train our kids from birth to use *nix, and they all train their kids, etc, etc, etc, only Microsoft can destroy their own monopoly. Our only hope is that a catastrophic worm makes it impossible to ever use Windows, as other than that, reguardless of how many 'Linux for Total Newbies' PDFs people put out, those 'total newbies' will be reading it from a Windows machine, and the vast majority of them will be too scared or too stubborn to switch.
This will probably get modded troll, but that's the way it is - this is the wrong approach to be taking, and for all the people us few thousand nerds convert (very few), there's going to be a few thousand more kids growing up using mummy and daddy's Windows machine, perpetuating Microsoft's mindshare. We need to find a way to deal with it, and this is not it.
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
This is an admirable effort, however why Fedora for a beginner's distro? The problem I see is that Fedora is just getting it's feet wet and entire reinstalls are needed to update from core 1 -> 2. This harks back to my days with Red Hat 5 and Mdk 6. Without trying to start a flamewar, I really think a Debian based system with Synaptic setup for updating is the best solution. Lastly, I don't know if a beginner's guide should include the commandline, that will likely scare some off. Let them get completely comfy in the GUI, then let them start exploring off the path.
Still, efforts like this NEED to be undertaken, if it's one thing OSS projects often lack is documentation.
CV*)($#B
free ipod and free gmail!
And the cool part is that the entire thing is under an attributions-required OSI-approved Creative Common license, and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats.
.sxw or a PDF one would be very useful for someone new to PCs - they need some basic knowledge to even view it, and it would get incredibly confusing to try to use the computer and read instructions off it at the same time. The alternative is to get the manual printed by someone you know who already knows how to use a PC and has a lot of paper and ink to waste and... If you were learning a computer for the first time, what would be more convenient, this or a reasonably cheap, easy to find Dummies guide to PCs (which would refer to Windows)?
Neither a
I know we're into OSS evangelism here, but honestly, for someone new to PCs, it would be much better to choose the platform most common and hence easiest to find advice and help for, and that's Windows. As I've seen with my grandparents, learning PCs for the first time is hard enough as it is without the extra trouble of pursuing a minority desktop OS.
Would the average home user even be capable of knowing if his/her Linux box had been "0wned" ?
Mandrake and Suse would be better for ANY desktop user, and certainly better for the IOSN to promote since both distributions have long-term commitments to the desktop.
...if it weren't for all the problems installing and setting it up. Linux will NEVER be a popular desktop computer until there is a major distro that really has its mind set on that and can get its act together. Going all the way back to Windows 3.1, even my worst Windows installs always end up with more things functioning than with the best Linux installs.
... *update program does absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, then crashes*. Darn. Let's see what my other options are. *goes and downloads yum* ... *after downloading most of the patches two or three times due to something getting stuck halfway through the download, one particular download (ghostwriter update) absolutely refuses to download no matter what happens*
... *init 3, install, change /etc/X11/XF86Config, init 5, high-pitched noises and monitor spiking and freaking out* ... Hmm, that's not supposed to happen. Lemme check that out online. Oh, you say Fedora Core 2 doesn't work with Nvidia graphic cards by default, unless you change a few settings and recompile the kernel? That's nice. I have a better one. How about, I give you the finger, and you get the hell off my computer.
I tried setting up Fedora Core 2 on one of my systems the other day and had so much trouble I ended up switching to Mandrake (and now I'm about to switch to Gentoo because Mandrake doesn't seem that nice either).
The first problem I had (and apparently several other people had) was during installation. I don't know what went wrong, but it absolutely refuses to accept my disc 3's. I downloaded disc 3 twice, did a checksum on it the second time to make sure it was absolutely perfect, then burned it (from two different burners) at low speeds and it still said "That is not a valid Fedora Core Disc 3" every time. Oh, well, I guess I'll just skip installing the things on that disc. Oops, no option for that, I have to reboot and cancel the entire installation.
Fast forward to not installing anything from disc 3 and getting Fedora up and running. Sort of. Immediately upon loading Gnome, it tells me I have some updates to download. 166 of them. Well, I better get started on that. *clicks through all the windows to download updates*
Well, screw updates, I'll just go through and do some of them manually later. Let's get to the problem of my videocard not using the proper drivers. *heads to nvidia.com and downloads the drivers*
So here I am posting in Windows XP, despite my best efforts to leave. I actually value my time.
Step 1: Buy a Mac.
Step 2: Put Mac on desk; power up.
Step 3: There is no step 3!
While I commend them on their efforts, I don't think very many people are going to find this useful.
I would have chosen Mandrake over Fedora because Fedora is meant to be Red Hat's bleeding edge test bed. Mandrake is easy to set up and as long as don't care to tweak around with it much, it'll do you fine.
Computer use is getting so complex and most of us here don't even realize it. To explain the simplest tasks to someone who knows nothing about computers is not easy and I think it needs to be taught rather than dictated to in a book. And a book at that, a pdf is only useful if someone is going to print it out in lieu of teaching someone.
Nobody learns to drive a car by reading a manual, and no one should be expected to learn a computer by manual either.
After perusing it, I gave this one to my sisters and mother. It covers all the same things, but in print, with Figures:
Teach Yourself Red Hat Linux Fedora
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Using XP Home and only Firefox, I've had no spyware or viruses in the 2 years since my last reformat.
Happy mandrake 10 user here. It just makes my life easier. Finally without a windows partition!!
I've been using mandrake for 2 years now... before that I was a windows fanboy.
Anyways... linux has been great. I am able to do everything I need to for my job in linux (CXOffice has been wonderful).
...Fedora is designed to be a more or less bleeding edge perpetual beta, even though they call it a release. Sorta like moz in a way. Call it a stable~beta, freebie community/developer/enthusiast edition. If you want "more" stable and more and longer support, you go to the redhat pay per view version, or stick to legacy Rh 7-9 as long as that lasts.
With that said I like fedora, it works fine,seems perfectly stable to me with only a few minor hiccups, no showe stoppers, and twice a year to plop a few Cds in isn't hard, and updating even on my old coal burner system and rural slow dialup is not hard either.
Basically, you can't have it both ways at the same time. If you want new and improved, well, the developers ain't lazy and come out with new and improved all the time, so there ya go. If you want to run a distro for a long time, then just run a distro for a long time. If it's gotta-haveit security updates, you might have to compile it in. thems the breaks. You can't have a 5 ton truck that gets 50 MPG, just ain't happening, some times ya got to make some compromises. I bet there's folks here still running RH6 probably, and similar vintage older various distros/OSes. Heck, I run new linux but I still crank up some old macs running 7.x and 8.x sometimes, and still got a laptop with win 95 on it that I (and who knows who else, heh) fool with occassionaly just for sport.
Plus, if it fails, it's the writer's time that is wasted, not yours.
-- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.
Some of you guys may not suggest Fedora for a linux beginner, but wait, I have seen quite a few users hop on to linux, completely abandoning Windows right with Fedora Core 1, and they are actuallly happy with it!
Installing applications are not that hard unlike the earlier days. I recommend rpm.pbone.net to find your applications packaging for Fedora, I have been 99.99% successfull! And with the brand new Yum, staying upto date is always a breeze.
I also recommend adding Dag Wieers repository in your yum configuration and this particular one releases very useful applications/updates. Needless to stay, once you load fancy themes and eye-candy like gDesklets you really can grab the eyes of people around you while giving you a pleasurable user experience.
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
I think this is a step in the right direction, but I think it would be even better if there is a distrobution aimed specifically at home linux users, with strong community support.
I have been using linux for about 5 years, and I have used most of the major distros for a while (Slackware, Red Hat, Debian, Mandrake, Gentoo). One of the things I find lacking is a friendly support group that doesn't just tell you to "RTFM, you n00b!".
I think Gentoo is definitely heading in the right direction, so far the gentoo folks have been more than helpful, and *very* friendly too, which is rare in my experience. But Gentoo is still too much a tech-savvy distro, if we could have something that's like Mandrake or Lindows, with a friendly cummunity, we may have something there.
I have been trying to convince some of my friends to switch over to Linux, the gamer types always complain about not being able to play their favorite games. I also have some people at work who are trying to switch over to Linux at home. They all have a common problem: when they are stuck, they don't know who/where to ask. Some of them got very discouraged by the responses they get on some of the forums, and went straight back to Windows. I spoke to some of these people and offered to help them, but one of them told me "you Linux users are a$$holes! I am stickign with Windows."
Again, I applaude those who have put great effort into this user guide, and for Linux to become a big desktop player, I think all of us need to be patient with the new-comers and do a little more hand-holding.
just my 2 cents.
Been using Firefox for two years, eh?
Art Schools Dietzilla
Hrg, all you need is a decent 3rd party software firewall, a different browser to ie and a little common sense to completly avoid all spyware, viruses etc. What's that, like 6 megs of downloads? Admittedly you'll have to get the firewall from another already protected computer, but it's really not that hard to keep a windows box secure.
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
It might not have been newbie friendly, but was nowhere near as difficult as the grandparent suggests. Extra documentation is certainly welcome, though, and any efforts to make Linux newbie friendly are greatly appreciated.
how is Linux supposed to be usable for someone new to Linux such as myself
when your new 9800 PRO isn't supported by X?
Without a terminal, you will not survive through the rest of the book.
The International Open-Source Network has created a desktop manual aimed at end-users with little or no prior knowledge of PCs.
I seriously hope it's not written in English, then. Everyone able to use a computer that can speak English already likely is.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
GNOME and KDE are already feature competitive with Windows and OSX. OSX in particular has been an incredible let-down for me, a UI which looks like it was rendered by a nine year old girl coupled with an oddly annoying mix of low level unix and non-freeish oddities (use of nonfree Stuffit as default compressor).
If only the setup for Fedora's up2date automatically chose and configured a mirror based on the user's preferred time zone. Then that "nothing happens for fifteen minutes then crashes" error could be avoided. Fortunately, I knew how to manually configure up2date to point from the default Fedora servers to planetmirror in AU. Needless to say, no crashes, perfect update.
No more and no less than he'd be able to know if his Windows box has been "0wned".
Knoppix. Include directions for installing to hard drive and setting up Debian. It still needs a bit more polish, but it could be killer.
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
Ctrl-Z duh! Though none of my changes ever stick. Hrmmm
This manual goes through ... how to use the OpenOffice.org office suite ... and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) ... formats.
Erm... This reminds me, I have to go watch that videotape that'll show me how to use my VCR.
Anyone who can afford a Mac probably has a computer already...
0 1 - just my two bits
Since SuSE Linux is the only distro I have extensive experience with, I use it as an example. Installation is as easy as booting off your DVD, selecting your language, accepting a few default options for partitioning and package selection, choosing your username and passwords, and waiting about half an hour for the system to install. And off you go surfing the net and writing letters with OpenOffice! The last time I ran into serious difficulties with a SuSE install was more than a few years ago.
A Windows install? The first few steps are quite similar, but once the system is installed the fun begins: insert manufacturer disk to install custom drivers; insert MS Office CDs to install word processor; hop on the web to download Acrobat Reader; install IM client, jukebox, IE replacement, firewall, and whatnot. With Linux all the stuff a beginner needs is already there; no need to hunt around for programs. And no need to reinstall every few months because a worm messed up the system.
Granted, with Linux you have to pay attention what hardware you choose, especially concerning printers and modems. But the time where you have to touch the command line in order to get Linux to run has passed quite some time ago.
"The only catch with Fedora, however, is its initial install: none of the partitioning strangeness has been fixed. On certain machines, Fedora simply cannot coexist with Windows on the same hard drive. But, if someone is willing to ditch Windows altogether, or is trying it out on a new, exclusively linux box, the installation is nearly flawless."
l ist/20 04-May/msg02114.html
A fix for the dual boot issue with Windows XP was posted on the Red Hat site on May 18, 2004 (maybe earlier, this was the earliest post that I ran across). No judgement call for users out there, just some helpful links and info. Enjoy Fedora.
Red Hat:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-
LWN:
http://lwn.net/Articles/86835/
By this logic, the GNU project never should have been started at all and neither should have the Linux kernel. Even by the narrow dictates of popularity, in order to make something popular one first must make something. This particular work is licensed to allow sharing, improvement, and commercial distribution which strikes me as being remarkably generous. We can't afford to believe that we must sequence our steps of progress because if we do we'll never accomplish anything.
I think it would be far healthier to continue to let a thousand flowers bloom.
Digital Citizen
Though slashdotted, if you actually get through you'd see
Linux has many distributions and sometimes the programs or tools used to perform a certain function can vary from distribution to distribution. This guide tries to be as generic as possible in the description of the features and functionalities. However, in some cases, especially some of the GUI desktop configuration tools, there is no really independent generic tool that can be used and each distribution has its own tool. In such cases, we have tried to illustrate their usage using Fedora Linux
This guide was written on a Fedora Linux system and as such many of the screen shots reflect this. However, this should not be construed as an endorsement of this distribution of Linux over the others on the part of the authors.
Fedora's desktop is used for screenshots and examples, but it isn't a guide to Fedora.
I haven't read the PDF yet but I suspect its not directly aimed at Joe User. It is aimed at US(Linux user ITs or geeks) to GIVE to Joe User with a copy of Fedora or Mandrake. Yes you are correct that the stores will sell you windows but the end users are getting frustrated with Windows enough to be looking for solutions. This is one. They aren't likely to know about Linux but they may know about you. So get off your duff and show them the better way.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
I'll stay with TeX and DocBook
Google Cache [66.102.7.104]
...having a graphical explanation for a graphical user interface. Seems a natural anyway.
Long time ago, not sure which version, 95 maybe, a friend of mine had a VCR tape he got mailorder that walked you through a lot of windows stuff, it was quite good really, as you could set up your machine next to the Tv and play along with it.
Seriously. Mandrake is easy to install, has excellent hardware detection, and passed the "my-non-techie-mother can use it" test. Once you set up the urpmi system (a lot like apt-get for Debian, and has a graphical front-end for it as well), updating and upgrading is straightforward and simple.
"What do you think?" "I think 'What, do you think?!'"
My company uses Mandrake for some of the servers, and all of our desktops. The problem we are running into now is that, Mandrake has officially stopped supporting some of the older versions (prior to 9.0). We have a few servers that were still stuck on 8.1, and we were forced to go through a rather painful upgrade (no, it's not as easy as putting in a newer MDK CD, that actually broke the system).
:)
And we are getting ready now because 9.0 will soon be discontinued as well (or has it been discontinued already?)
This would not have been a problem if the upgrade option actually works. When upgrading one of our 9.0 machines to 9.2 (by putting in a MDK 9.2 CD), glibc broke and we couldn't figure out why... so we had to do it again, build a 9.2 machine, and copy data from the 9.0 ones. this sucks. big time.
I have had better luck with upgrading on Debian, and I wish my boss could agree with me... he loves that i586 extension on Mandrake, and seeing i386 makes him nervous.
I run Gentoo at home, and upgrading is *VERY* easy
# emerge world
done.
I think this guide is a fantastic idea for people like my uncle. The guy absolutely hates Microsoft, for a variety of reasons that will be familiar to most Slashdot readers. But he has never switched to anything else because he's too afraid of losing compatibility, not being able to use MS Office, etc. I should say he *was* afraid, because I recently gave him an old G3/500 iBook running Mac OSX, and he loves it.
Now he is ready to take his old Wintel box and put Linux on it. This manual will be perfect. I can pass it his way, have him give it a read-through, and then I'll go over to his place and we'll run through a Linux installation together.
There are a variety of folks out there who have a strong dislike for Microsoft products, but have no real experience with anything but Microsoft. They know that many pundits say OS X is a better user experience. They know that Linux is out there too. But they need all the help they can get in pushing past the extremely strong inertia that Microsoft has created.
You are quite right in saying that "the vast majority of them will be too scared or too stubborn to switch," but I believe that if there are multiple avenues (in the true *NIX tradition) for people to take in their quest to find alternatives to Microsoft, so much the better. Linux has never been about "The One True Way" and I think it's a bit much to expect that we will ever find "a way to deal with it." Why not present multiple paths?
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
At least GNOME is consistent - can you tell me why some OSX apps use metal, some use aqua? Its not clear there is any rhyme or reason. Also the use of a nonfree compression utility. If I can't download a free multiplatform version of the compressor (Stuffit), then go back to square one. Or maybe exposing unix file ownerships and groups and other multiuser aspects of the system to novices who have no idea. Or the best - requiring that the user drag uncompressed application to the Application folder. Hint - the OS already knows its an app or it wouldn't have told me. Even GNOME knows better.
We have a heavy Linux community and Windows too at Scot's. We try to be very friendly. The mods are so concerned about n00b bashing that they will edit posts that try to use it. A huge tip file and other stuff as well.
http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
With only one terminal window, you are not gonna survive through the rest of the book.
1) Make sure BIOS is set to boot from CD.
2) Install Windows XP CD.
3) When prompted delete all existing partitions.
4) Make 1 large new NTFS partition.
5) Follow install instructions for XP.
6) Run this crashy buggy piece of software while you wait 3-10 years and check again if Linux is ready for your desktop.
Linux is NOT ready for non-technically inclined users to use as their desktop. You get 1 shot at introducing them to Linux - its callled a first impression. If their first impression is bad they're unlikely to try it again for a long time (possibly NEVER again). You need to present them with a simple to configure system that does things for them without them having to worry about hardware compatibility, and hand editing software config files. Until that's true DO NOT even THINK of asking them to use Linux.
I'm not trolling but I can't wait to see how this one's modded *grin*
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I've looked through it, and I still have no idea how to use the three shells.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
by the DDoS /. effect.
Whew, that was a close one! Just imagine if the link actually pointed to OpenOFFICE.org . We'd all be in trouble then.
0. How is that insightful? "kill me, I'm a troll" at best.
1. You are not starting GNOME you are starting X which loads the driver for video.
2. You can start GNOME with no video card (I do that with kde though) simply do ssh -X from a different box, login as normally then run programs they will appear on your screen, but they are actually running on your videocard-less box.
3. I do not have problems starting X with new kickass video card(s). Look at #1.
Bullshit. I am a longtime computer user with a goodly amount of grey hair. You were probably in diapers when Windows 3.11 came out. Windows 3.11 came with exactly jack and shit functional. It had Solitaire, but that's about it. Need TCP/IP? Download Trumpet Winsock. Then download Mosaic and Pegasus Mail. Oh yeah, install all your apps...maybe Word, maybe Word Perfect, maybe Lotus, maybe any number of other stuff. Windows95 was a little better. You got TCP/IP networking, you got The Microsoft Network (remember when MS was chasing AOHell and Prodigy?) and you got Wordpad. Oh yeah, and Solitaire. w00t. 2K gave you Internet Exploder and Outhouse Excess, and also a pinball game to go along with your Solitaire and Minesweeper.
OK, now what do you get with your average distribution of Linux? A lot more, eh? Fully fledged office suites, all the internet apps you want and some you don't, lots of cute little timesink games, a full development environment, educational software, multimedia software, and almost all the drivers you need. Including the NVidia drivers if you back away from the Fedora and try perhaps SuSE or Mandrake. Or even Linspire, which you can set up with a non-root user account and even use apt-get to update into glorious Debian-ness.
If you value your time, buy a machine that's preloaded. There's a lot more out there preloaded with Linux then there used to be.
If you are truly interested in getting free of Windows, there are tons of resources out there for it. And even if you stick with Windows, there's a lot of F/OSS out there to try while you make the transition.
HTH HAND
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
User Guide to Using the Linux Desktop
If the site is 'software for all' annd about Free and Open Source Software, why is an article about OpenOffice and other desktop called a "Linux Guide" when all of the software they list will also work on FreeBSD? Is FreeBSD now "Linux"?
I just updated my Fedora day before yesterday using apt-get for rpm and its GUI Synaptic.
Yesterday evening when I reached home it was total suprise for me that my wife (a doctor and with very little knowledge of computers) was not only able to Browse the net but also
send emails and
listen to internet radio from smashhits.com
all by herself without any external help.
It made me realise that Linux Desktop is not as difficult to use for a new user as we think.
ATI provides a 9800 pro driver. I've installed it myself. The reason X distro's don't include it is because they are proprietary (non-free). However, their generic radeon driver runs just fine as long as you aren't doing any 3d acceleration. Funny, thats the same way it is with windows...built-in driver works but for 3d accel you need the ATI version.
If you can't get the right driver from ATI or Nvidea, then this book must have you in mind.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Linux is NOT ready for non-technically inclined users to use as their desktop.
I see you've managed to completely ignore the posts about Suse and how easier to install than either Win2000 or WinXP. If the non-technically inclined can click on a few buttons, do the standard installation, and be surfing the web in a half hour or so, then I'd say that Suse is pretty fucking ready for them.
The only thing easier is having it pre-installed.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
and no one gives a damn about an O/S that disappeared from the OEM consumer market three years ago.
MOD THAT OFF-TOPIC! (and mod this flamebait or troll)
Need TCP/IP? Download Trumpet Winsock.
I used Trumpet Winsock back in the day, and lemme tell you, it would have been a little hard to download Trumpet Winsock without... well, having Trumpet Winsock. Seeing as you wouldn't have a TCP/IP stack to do the downloading with, y'know? None of this fancy "built into the operating system" shit, nosirree. If we wanted Trumpet Winsock, we had to get it on a *floppy*, and not one o' them newfangled 3.5 in. floppies-that-don't-flop, either. We used real 5.25 in. floppies, and we liked 'em!
Trumpet Winsock, let me tell you, we thought that was the best thing since striped suspenders. (sniff) I'll never forget the day I threw out the Procomm Plus disks...
You've missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about the install process. If the install process was hard, and that was the entire problem, they'd get their techy friend to help.
I'm talking about daily use and administration. How easy is it to change software settings, install new software, view the word file their friend sent without having its format screw up, and edit that picture.
Yes there free apps out there, but they're often esoteric. Yes the install process is much better than the days of the old text install, but when you want to change something its harder.
For all its problems its still usually a few clicks to install windows applications, the settings are more often than not in the menus with a nice dialog box set up for picking between them, and even administering the computer can be done graphically without resorting to hand editing anything?
How many Linux users do you know that don't have to hand edit config files?
How many Windows users do you know that hand edit ini files or the registry?
THAT is my point.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Walking through my university bookstore today, I noticed Fedora for Dummies, as well as a number of other books aimed at linux for new users. That said, I'm not sure how many people would go into the (gasp!) technology section of a bookstore if they're not looking for something a little more comprehensive.
I'm surprised that I haven't seen any jokes about /.'ing the UN, WMDs or other such jokes yet. A little background about that little server you guys are turning into molten plasma:
:)
/.'ing is over, do visit the site again later and see what the UN is doing with regards to FOSS. There are a few interesting projects underway, including FAQs for policy makers, localization toolkits and much more. The training materials are just the beginning of what the IOSN has in store.
The International Open Source Network is part of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). The IOSN's purpose is to promote Free and open source software to developing nations, particularly in the Asia-Pacific. The desktop training materials are part of that, as many governments have expressed a need for human capacity building materials. I'd link to the joint declaration for FOSS by 20 countries, but it's sitting on that same smoking server.
The IOSN server currently sits in the UNDP country office representing Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore. With a single link, Slashdot has DDOSed the UN representatives of 3 different countries! Sharing that internet link is the national website of Niue (www.niuegov.com) plus a number of websites for regional UN programs. Way to go guys. Expect UN weapons inspectors on your doors soon.
When the
-5, totally retarded, in fact so retarded, it's actually
+5, funny
net mod, 0, retarded and funny
"ZZ" is faster than ":x" .
Also, the reason for the "hjkl" keys may be related to the fact that CTRL+h, etc., moved the cursor in those directions on old Tektronix 4010s, DEC VT-52s, and other terminals.
Like even Windows applications and settings... the answer is "it depends". Any software that is part of the distro is simply a matter of selecting it and letting it install (either from the 'net or CDROM depending on your selection). Software from a 3rd party? It all depends. There are vendors who package their apps for your distro in it's preferred format (clicky-clicky to begin install). There are vendors who use either existing commercial or self-written all-inclusive install packages (much like you see on Windows - clicky-clicky to install). And then there are those who offer an archive that you have to drop in place to run - much like a Windows
When it comes to configuration, it all depends on how you want to do things. There are some very impressive GUI tools that give you all the normal tasks with clicky-clicky ease. These tools are modifying underlying config files that you can tweak by hand if you're so inclined. But with current distros like SuSE, this is entirely by choice.
Isn't it amazing how many registry hacks show up on Windows help sites?
This is what I have been told by fedora developers. I run a dedicated server, and have been told there's a better chance of fucking it up than having it work once I upgrade, and UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to just change 1 to 2 and do an apt-get dist-upgrade.
I'm now a debian fan.
"!" after a command in vi usually means "do the operation without prompting", or, to put it another way, forcibly do the operation, even though you may lose information (e.g., ":w!" will overwrite a file that you have opened read-only (i.e., with "view"), or that you indicated was read-only with the ":se readonly" command).
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
You have to remember that most of the pro-Linux people on here really haven't used Windows at all. Sometimes they have some experience with Windows 95/98, but usually not even that. (Hell, look at how often they bring up Microsoft BOB and Clippy! That's 1995 and 1997, respectively.)
;) (I think people say that because those posts always get modded up.)
The truth is that anyone who follows the advice of Windows and their ISP can be secure with a minimum of effort. With Service Pack 2, where Windows enforces it and doesn't just suggest it, it's even easier. The Linux community is out-of-touch... they are rallying against a product they've never used. The fact is that Windows XP is actually a really good operating system... it's faster than Linux, it's stable, it's a hell of a lot easier to use, and it has a better security model than Linux.
And now the obligatory: "But of course this post opposed the Slashbot groupthink and will be modded down."
Comment of the year
In third world countries i've visited, you can obtain any microsoft OS on a bootable cd for $1. even though xppro corporate + native lanuage mui is widely available for $1, most people are still using their native language version of win98 just because they see no need to change. for a linux distribution to gain acceptance in many third world countries, windows 98 would have to become less widely available
Isn't it amazing how many registry hacks show up on Windows help sites?
Even more amazing is how few people use them. For example I doubt either my mother or my girlfriend knows how to hand edit the registry. They use Windows frequently.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
``many of the supposedly computer-savvy teens today have no idea about many of the fundamental underpinnings of computers.''
Well said. Also, I am astonished by the number of CS students that don't know what the instructions their computers execute look like. No surprise they can't get any sort of concurrency right...
Anyway, I actually wanted to comment on this part:
``I recently gave him an old G3/500 iBook running Mac OSX, and he loves it.
Now he is ready to take his old Wintel box and put Linux on it.''
I think this sort of scenario can become more common. I have an iBook that I run OS X on when traveling (when plugged in, I use Debian). Many of my friends have been impressed by OS X and gotten curious about alternatives to Windows. I would plop a KNOPPIX CD in their drive and gave them a quick tour. All were impressed. Some have installed some distro.
The funny thing is that I'm not even interested in getting people to switch. It's just the awaraness that alternatives exist, and that they are good, that sparks their curiosity.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
And that proprietary driver works just fine here. It did cost me some time, but there is excellent documentation on this. If you run a RPM-based distribution you're all set; if you run Debian Google for: "Debian ATI Radeon" and you get a nice howto as one of the first hits.
FSZs (Free Software Zealots): yeah wether its that, or the firmware / hardware which is closed sour.. err proprietary software doesn't matter. Your BIOS is still closed so.. err proprietary software, the firmware of your hardware is, and some hardware is. So go away trolling elsewhere already.
well, as someone lese in that reply-tree already mentioned...you have to install ATI-drivers for 3D...2D is working out of the box. The point is what is discussed in http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=118933&c id=10041113
doubleclick an exe and answer few questions or download an rpm/db/whatever and follow some instructions...
guess the first one wins, because everyone "knows" it...
well, your card works...just as fine on windows as under linux.
(sure enough, both may behave difficult when installing, that is just the risk in IT).
my 2 rappen
scheuri
I've been a long-time windows man myself, but about four weeks ago I installed SuSE to coexist with windows xp.
After spending a bit over a week using SuSE I decided to ditch XP. It really is that good (for me at least).
I'm now running Debian since it suits me better than SuSE (I'm a reasonably fast learner), and I think I'm going to give Gentoo a try too, but SuSE was a great stepping stone, and it gave me the confidence to get rid of Windows entirely.
The only complaint I have about SuSE is that every time I ran YaST it bugged me for the password, and every time I clicked on the "remember password" box. Although it might be a KDE issue, I dunno.
I believe there are two things that linux desktop needs YESTERDAY:
/proc tree to be world-readable.. impossible to change without either a) lowering security level as a whole or b) edit the "default settings" config file in some hard-to-find location.
* Crash proof GUI's
Even in the latest distros, I've been able to crash almost all kinds of configuration "centers" and most GUI apps)
* Configuration GUIs that can do *almost everything*.
I am sick of Linux config GUIs with big emty white spaces and one textfield where you can write "yes" "no" or some obscure string like "eth2". For example, the firewall configuration should have an advanced button where you can do all kinds of portmapping, redirecting etc.
Another example is the Mandrake security center... it has several "uneditable" settings. For example I need the
And don't tell me to write it myself... I'm already working on a comprehensive iptables & Shorewall editor.
Now *THERE'S* a good idea. Put it in a proprietary format that *possibly* (current compatibility features accepted) won't be displayed properly on a GNU/Linux system, so that once they get on there and start trying to read the manuals and work their way around, they might not be able to read the manual properly. I would imagine that one of the requirements of the manual is that people are able to read them on a GNU/Linux system, so that they can actually try out the things they are learning.
And how do you suggest that they display screenshots in a text file? Being that the manual is for beginners, and they added as many screenshots as possible to aid understanding, having a text-only document would utterly defeat the purpose of the manual.
If you're going to rag on the format, at least suggest SENSIBLE (and preferably open) formats, such as PDF (which they already provide; most systems have a PDF viewer so this is not a problem) or HTML.
And to take a Free Software view for a moment, I think if you want a Free (as in speech) document about a Free system converted into a proprietary format, you aren't going to appreciate the philosophy of GNU/Linux.
I know from personal experience as an IT guy dealing with many users every day that most of them don't want a manual and don't even want to know any more than they absolutely need in order to get by.
Computers simply have not evolved to the Star-Trek like devices that only require some vague verbal commands, yet understand exactly what you want. Until that happens, most people will be 'afraid' of them and only use them in a 'black box' way to do something cool or necessary. Think of folks using their PC to fire up IE and read Hotmail, or using a computer that's packaged up as an ATM. [Yes, I'm a Mozilla user, but IE is still what most people unconsciously use as their browser!]
_KJH
Whoever Has the Most Toys Wins!
In australia just dig back threw the PC World disk yep openoffice no download.
I'll sound a lot like Perens here, but only because I firmly believe that he is absolutely correct in many aspects.
A project like these should be directed towards the few remaining truely free operating system installations that exist. The two largest being Debian and Gentoo. The installations that charge for their services or software (SuSE, RedHat) should not be supported on these projects in the future.
Why?
Debian is showing itself to have a highly unique feature that none others can offer. Debian is being built upon by others to create a greater variety of User Installations then what can be offered by Fedora alone. What I mean by this is the existence of installations like:
- Lindows (or whatever they renamed it)
- Knoppix
- Libranet (I think)
Are all based entirely upon the Debian architecture as the launch point of the distribution.This unique property of Debian, over the RPM based installations of SuSE, Fedora, Mandrake, allows others to build specialized OS packages using a common baseline. Gentoo has similar properties, but I am not personally aware of anyone attempting to build additional distributions from the base architecture of Gentoo.
Furthermore, with the continued arguement that the Open Source and/or Free software has advanced to such a point that it is really a viable solution to so many software needs, that to continue Open Source efforts that are based on installations which are not entirely free, is potentially a less-than-optimum use of resources
We must be careful to avoid accidentally supporting a software distrubition which cannot be continued as a useful, practical, and free. While Fedora may be free, it is arguably not practically useful or stable for all applications. After all, it is recognized as the bleeding edge version of the rather expensive RedHat version.
If you put together a really great bang up software package which is entirely dependant upon a purchased software package of any origin you are following the precursor avenue of supporting the likes of Microsoft. Microsoft's distaste, for me, is the fantastically high fees applied to get continued support and use of the software.
If the only thing we ever do is publish all these really great docs on how to do stuff using software which comes in either bleeding edge or expense to purchase, we are doing little to really promote the concept of Open Source and Free Software.
However, everything presented in the howto is actually Free Software and should be written up on software installation architecture which is not a limitation (non-free) but compatable with the same software.
As for the merits of Debian versus Gentoo and other distributions, any discussion in that vein would probably be Off Topic and inflammatory.
According to my mum (and I can't verify this because I haven't used MS Word in years), Word can read and write .sxw files. Of course, that's no guarantee that they're standards compliant (IE/png anyone?) but its a start. And it would allow "normal" users to open and print the manual.
Don't you hate meta-sigs?
. . and can wholeheartedly recommend Xandros Desktop for new users.
The last time I even _tried_ to install Linux was eighteen months ago, and it all went rats.
Yet just last weekend I finally plucked up the courage to try again on an mid-spec (P4 1.7) second-hand box. I took ages making sure I had the precise hardware specs. Then put in the install CD.
Set the admin and user account details.
Went to get a coffee.
Came back and it was 80% done. Total install time was less than 12 minutes. It autodetected everything, and happily picks up my USB thumbdrives and so on.
My wife has used it since the install, and so has my 11yo daughter, and neither of them had the slightest problem.
So my vote has to go to Xandros, and I'm advocating it now to anyone who asks!
"This is your life - and it's ending one minute at a time" - Narrator, Fight Club
Apparently Linux isn't ready for slashdot let alone the desktop :P
Yo Grark
Canadian Bred with American Buttering
Does Linux have top legal home marketshare in India,China &co? Probably
Does Linux have top legal educational marketshare in India,China &co? Probably
So is the chance that people's very first system will be Linux high? How high? more that 10%? then Yes.
Does this make you whole post pointless? No.
What do stores [in America] sell a new user if they don't know what they want? Whatever there told to. Therefore they will learn whatever there given.
The only way they'll find out about this report is if they go online and find it, and then if they're not a techy user, they're not going to want to install something like an OS for themselves.
Yeh, I don't know anyone who's rebuilt Windows.
Lets say I spend $200 and hand out coppies in the street with a Linux dvd/cd, you whole argument becomes invalid.
I wouldn't mod you as a troll (well maybe) but I would mod you as Insular(word of the day).
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I've set up a mirror at http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguide /.
e /print.html.
e /linux-userguide-sxw.torrent for OpenOffice files ande /linux-userguide-pdf.torrent for PDFs.
The original page with links is http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguid
Files are still being downloaded, you can see how many are present from the first link.
Torrents will be available when downloads are complete at:
http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguid
http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguid
Now go around your office and find out which Windows Luser ever read the manual...none. That is how many will read this one. 90% of all users got their sorry little knowledge by routinely watching as their admins were forced to hold their little hands. Laziness, not ignorance, is what stands in the way of switching platforms.
SUSE 9.1's installation and setupare at least as good as anything else in the industry. If you buy it, you get several hundred pages of professional documentation that is likely to answer any question a newbie might pose. If not, SUSE's online, free, support site is excellent. ANd, there are the usual mailing lists.
Like any other distribution that is dependent on a packaging scheme and a dependency resolver, there is potential risk in installing "foreign" software. Since almost all distributions use a dependency resolver, this issue is almost universal.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
But if you are a beginner, and have an Nvidia graphics card, Mandrake might be best. SuSE's Nvidia support is based on a mis-understanding of Nvidia's licensing terms, they could bundle the driver with the distro if they wanted to.
Don't know how long updates last for, but by the time SuSE lose interest in support, a beginner might have reached the stage of downloading and installing their own stuff anyway, so it might not matter. Anyway, what is wrong with an update every couple of years? They should be well used to it if they have used Windoze.........
Of course there is always FreeBSD......
As for me, I'm familiar with all (up to M$AS2003) not only 95/98. Has clippy maybe gone away. Ok, now you have to enable it.
.Net doesn't mean more security. Otherwise Java would be most secure until now. It's just runtime controlled software, nothing else. Controlled software is just as secure as environment and runtime engine is.
;)
The truth is that anyone who follows the advice of Windows and their ISP can be secure with a minimum of effort
ISP can never secure your box. ISP has to be defaulted to be open at least for it's internal network, which is often large. And can't block too much, because ISP could loose customers. Most of ISP's don't know shit about securing your box, because common ISP technical support mostly isn't qualified for that. I must admit that I was surprised once, when I talked to a guy on a level. It just turned out that he was from other department and temporally filling the gap in support.
With Service Pack 2, where Windows enforces it and doesn't just suggest it, it's even easier. The Linux community is out-of-touch...
1. Linux doesn't suggest firewall, it is enabled by default
2. So, having firewall that works in both directions is out-of-touch? Windows fw blocks only outside traffic, inside is not checked.
The fact is that Windows XP is actually a really good operating system...
Every fool has it's own horse! me? I got Linux
it's faster than Linux
Yeah, Windows starts Office faster, otherwise everything is dog slow
it's stable
Me and you obviously live on different planet. On our planet Windows is like a magnet to viruses, spyware and other malware.
it's a hell of a lot easier to use
Not for my needs. I agree that everyone without a clue what to do with his computer or someone who just wants to play games it is easier. But then again I have a clue and I have PS2.
it has a better security model than Linux.
Better security model as in....???? Windows hasn't got even real multi user environment. Two or three months ago M$ posted article how to write software for multiuser environment. To get a clue what I'm talking about. Start photoshop, Swithch user, Start another photoshop. Photoshop preferences blow, Ctrl-Alt-Shift become your friends (either that or that's $35 for Adobe support). This is the same tragedy as in most of Windows software.
Firewall-Like-One-Way-Toy was introduced with SP2???
So much talked-about
Windows is just getting with security where Linux was 5 years ago. For your information. Linux is moving away again with SELinux to be enabled by default.
And now the obligatory: "But of course this post opposed the Slashbot groupthink and will be modded down."
No, your comment is just stupid, that's all
(I think people say that because those posts always get modded up.)
Your comment is too stupid to be modded up, even if you beg as you do.
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
Actually, after following steps 1,2,3,5 and 6, my Dad's laptop still:
-didn't have a working modem
-didn't have a working wireless card
-didn't have working bluetooth
-displayed at 640x460 in 256 colours
Software I then had installed amounted to:
-notepad
-wordpad
-paint
-windows media player
-internet explorer
-outlook express
After installing Mandrake 10.0 on it:
-modem didn't work (winmodem, par for the course)
-wireless didn't work (Intel Pro Wireless 2200)
-displayed at 1600x1200 instead of 1680x1050 (so you had to scroll the screen to see the whole desktop).
-bluetooth did work (after installing kdebluetooth from the CDs it was immediately useable)
Software I had installed amounted to:
-Full office suite
-development environment (my dad develops a bit of software in C++/OpenGL)
-Full Tex editing environment
-Choice of better internet browsers
-Choice of better mail client with built-in spam detection
-mathematical software (Octave etc)
-choices of multimedia software
-
To get all devices working under Windows XP I had to load all the driver CDs HP shipped with the machine.
To get the remaining hardware working under linux I had to download a driver for the wireless card and adjust the screen resolution.
So, it looks like linux actually wins with your instructions (and this is pretty recent hardware).
Now, my Dad is technically inclined, but doesn't really have much Linux experience.
My mom's machine is next.
Another example is the Mandrake security center... it has several "uneditable" settings. For example I need the /proc tree to be world-readable.. impossible to change without either a) lowering security level as a whole or b) edit the "default settings" config file in some hard-to-find location.
/proc or any other file/directory. There is no need to edit the default settings config (if you do want to edit it yourself, use /etc/security/msec/perm.local).
...
This is a file permissions issue, please use drakperm to have your own settings on
So, it seems your example is bad - care to provide another one? BTW, you can't edit all settings in Windows either, that's why there's a registry editor
And, instead of "writing it myself", you can always file bug reports for the development and stable releases (bugs really do get addressed).
How many Windows users do you know that hand edit ini files or the registry?
.ini or registry files do you know of on linux? and how self explanatory, convenient or efficient is the windows system registry. That is not a horror I hope ever gets into linux.
How many
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Actually, after following steps 1,2,3,5 and 6, my Dad's laptop still:
-didn't have a working modem
-didn't have a working wireless card
-didn't have working bluetooth
-displayed at 640x460 in 256 colours
Software I then had installed amounted to:
-notepad
-wordpad
-paint
-windows media player
-internet explorer
-outlook express
After installing Mandrake 10.0 on it:
-modem didn't work (winmodem, par for the course - he doesn't need it now so I haven't installed the vendor's linmodem driver yet but it does work onmy laptop of similar model)
-wireless didn't work (Intel Pro Wireless 2200)
-displayed at 1600x1200 instead of 1680x1050 (so you had to scroll the screen to see the whole desktop).
-bluetooth did work (after installing kdebluetooth from the CDs it was immediately useable)
Software I had installed amounted to:
-Full office suite
-development environment (my dad develops a bit of software in C++/OpenGL)
-Full Tex editing environment
-Choice of better internet browsers
-Choice of better mail client with built-in spam detection
-mathematical software (Octave etc)
-choices of multimedia software
-
To get all devices working under Windows XP I had to load all the driver CDs HP shipped with the machine.
To get the remaining hardware working under linux I had to download a driver for the wireless card and adjust the screen resolution.
So, it looks like linux actually wins with your instructions (and this is pretty recent hardware).
Now, my Dad is technically inclined, but doesn't really have much Linux experience.
My mom's machine is next.
And the site is still /.'ed into the ground
Of hearing the arguments on slashdot, regarding how ready or not linux is for the desktop. While there are a few rough edges here and there. My experience has told me that my retired parents can use Linux (MDK10) (after a successful trial with knoppix) and they rarely need my help. My dad is 70 and my mum in her mid 60's. They use it through choice , its a dual boot system and 99% of the time they choose linux of their own accord. On the rare occaisions my mother boots into windows I often hear her cussing about how she hates windows (this brings a smile to my face!)
There is more to that story but its proof enough to me that non-technical people can happily use it. And although I am around the house to help if things go awry. My assistance is rarely needed to fix things. When they used windows I would often get frustrated with the constant problems I had to fix for them.
My point is if you are non-technical windows can be just as annoying. if not worse than a properly set-up linux box. If you are an experienced linux user and are fed up of fixing friends or families windows boxes belonging to non-techies. In my experience once they are up and running those problems seem to dissappear, your life and theirs just got better.
The only confusing thing for new linux users is breaking the habit of buying off the shelf software. In addition their is the issue of Windows games not running. If they are a hardcore gamer chances are they are fairly technical anyway. My PS2 does just fine for me.
Anyway the point of this post was not really to post "yet another example of how linux can work well for non-techies" but actually to ask this question...
Does anyone know of a website containing l success stories and examples of non-techies who have found the joy linux has brought into their computing lives? Because if one does not exist, I'd like to consider setting one up. Anyone interested or with similar stories please post here.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Bullshit - you don't know what you're talking about.
It's very easy to stealthily "0wn" a Linux box unless the user is an expert and constantly monitoring stuff. It's much harder to track down and remove trojans and malware too.
With Windows, it's pretty fucking obvious (if you half a clue) that you're "0wned".
Get your mommy to beat you with a clue stick!
http://www.gnustep.org/ try the live cd if your distro doesn't ship it or you're just too lazy to compile, http://www.linuks.mine.nu/gnustep/
Its a simple CD upgrade or you can do it with yum live. You can go back to about Red Hat 3.0.3 and update to Fedora Core without a reinstall providing you do it in several steps, or certainly 7.*->Fedora directly.
Alan
I think that the article has really missed the boat here. Red Hat is focusing on enterprise server software (availability, clustering, etc) and is simply the wrong distro to be recommending to a newbie if only for that reason.
Furthermore, most of the comments that suggest an alternative are too much steered towards non-corporate distributions or towards ones that don't focus well on conversion of Windows users.
Xandros is a clear choice for a variety of reasons:
1- It works. It has the #1 install on the market. It has a Windows feel to it that Win users can quickly pick up. Drivers, control panel, apps - all work.
2- It has a free version (as in beer) that people will be more likely to test-drive
3- If you like the free version for a couple bucks you can get a tailored plug-in that lets you run MS Office, iTunes, etc.
Hunger is the best sauce.
What'll kick butt is when the iw2200 driver gets finished. Since the source is Open (or Free), it will likely get picked up by the major distros and auto-detected as well. Maybe look to the next or next-next version to pick up the card automatically. Of course, it'd all be working by now if Intel hadn't waffled for a full year....
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
It's just difficult to setup.
The Linux desktop (ala KDE, GNOME) is very easy to use. I've read stories where people are saying that their mom and dad use it and their whole family uses it, and I beleive it. Yes it is true the new Linux desktops are easy to use.
But that is not the point. The point is that although it is easy to use, it is extremely difficult for the average user to setup correctly because the fact is that the Linux desktops have failed to shield the average user from the underlying mechanics of Unix. The only desktop to have done that successfully so far is Mac's Aqua interface.
To prove my point. just ask that same mom or dad or aunt and uncle to install a printer. Then we see a different story. Just ask them to install a digital camera or a scanner or compile an email client. Thats were the ease of use of Linux ends and the Windows logo begins.
So the problem here isn't one of ease of use. Helk, KDE is cake to use once everything is installed and working. But unless your're a Unix guru just try to get everything installed and working!
Any problems should be really serious problems that are trully outrageous. It should not take hours to setup the system. (configuration, not install) Detailed information on each library, executable, config file location, etc should not be necessary but it would be GREAT for any config/helper app (GUI or not) to actually create a script AND show what actions are taking place where... or at least where you as the admin/user can perform the same tasks.
Smitty for AIX has a feature much like this and it is great. You get the best of both worlds then. Doing what you need to do so you can get back to work, and then showing you where you too can be 1337 the next time you gotta tweak and configure.
Clear, updated, and consistent documentation follows next. Oh, btw "updated" implies accurate. Guides for setting up follow next, these too need to be kept updated. Show a date, kernel valid with (can be range and be updated) dependent libraries (again, a range is great here), and pretty much track everything you can to make sure that when XYZ is updated that a user can first look to these docs and guides for compatability and next if it doesn't work for them submit an update to the compatability list.
I am switching back to Windows XP myself for desktop, workstation, and even some server apps. Unless of course I can find a linux distro that reduces my time needed to use, configure and update. I started tracking the time it took to use Linux and found that I spent over 70% of that time getting things to work. This included reading man pages, googling around (including forums) looking at bug reports, and reading info on the application maintainer's home site. This is time I CAN'T spend on developing on Linux.
Oh, you can argue that I can help by posting my workarounds... but then that only adds more entries to the mess of disorganized information out there. What if we substituted computers for cars? Would it be acceptable to find that no one can ever drive around and go to work simply because they are always working on their vehicles? Wouldn't a better solution be necessary? How about streamlining the design of the components to work with each other better? How about the component vendors showing restraint and not requiring (linking) to only the latest bleeding edge external components (libraries) unless absolutely necessary? Consistency in interfaces (including user interface). If you know how to drive any car you can quickly adapt to another.
You have to start somewhere, and tracking these issues is generally step 2. Defining what you want is step 1 and often overlooked. "but our requirements will change" you say? Then what better time to record snaphots and show differences along with rationale behind the changes.
In the world of hobby hotrodding, good hobbiests understand that recording what you do is key. Linux doesn't even understand this. So perhaps it ISN'T accurate to call it a hobby OS as it still has a way to go to achieve that status. We need less craplets (small, shitty half-assed apps that work in only 1 percent of situations and configurations) to those that cover what they do with excellence and are designed to be component AND standalone. That is the gift of UNIX, not bitter old men and 1337 script kiddies automating pr0n downloads that think your system actually SHOULD be difficult and needlessly complex.
None the less, for a system that is often held as the example in GUI configuration when compared to flat text configs in Linux... there's an awful lot of things one can only configure in Windows if you modify the registry. And woe to the neophyte who wishes to tread there; they will find the registry inherently hostile. The savings grace is that they don't have to tread there too often. And even if / when they have to - if they follow instructions, they'll probably be OK.
Anyone who's experienced this will find that the Linux world isn't that unfamiliar. There are GUI tools for most of the usual end-user configs. And if someone finds themselves having to get elbow-deep in to the system, if they follow instructions, they'll do fine. One major difference is that text config files are fairly resliliant and often very well documented within the config file itself.
Mod the parent up - just because he says something bad about Linux doesn't mean he's a troll. Seriously, I've had lots of similar problems with Fedora, there doesn't seem to be much trolling here.
Exactly. They don't want to. The NVidia driver is proprietary, closed source and, most importantly, buggy! So SuSE made the quite logical choice to include the Open Source NV drivers as default, and then add a package in YaST Online Update that will install the closed source driver when you know that you want it enough to find out how to install it.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
SuSE is a very good system for a Linux newbie (I know, I was one, and fully made the switch when SuSE released 8.2 which was the first distro to fully support my antiquated Dell laptop). They also support (and provide updates) for their products for three years, although unofficial updates are available from their site for significantly longer.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Its political correctness is irritating: ... In particular she should be...
the reader should be
The real issue here is, Linux is not backwards compatible. No even from release x.1 to x.2. Which means, basically, that what you see is what you('ll ever) get, unless, like someone else wrote above, you reinstall everything. I have been using Linux, as a server, ever since RH 4.2; as a desktop since RH 7.3. Fedora is, by definition, a _development_ platform, so I would never use Fedora for productivity purposes. I refuse to be RedHat's guinea pig, it reminds me too much of the Win 95/98 era. When I wake up tommorow my Fedora machine might be unusable. Unless, of course, I reinstall everything. I did an experiment: I swiched 100% to Shrike (RH 9) desktop (Gnome 2.2) for a month. OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, GMPlayer, Gimp, the whole package. Productivity, web browsing, and email tools are okay, I can't complain. As for anything related to multimedia, instant messaging, P2P, webcam, USB scanner support, what a frustration! But the greatest surprise came to me from the instability of this desktop. Firefox would sometimes stop responding and only a reboot would fix the problem. The gnome-panel would sometimes hang and only a CTRL-Backspace & reboot would fix the problem. Unknown proceses would occasionally use 100% CPU for dozens of minutes which would eventually overheat the CPU (AMD K6-2 500MHz, 256MB RAM) and hang the machine, requiring a reboot. Also, RH 9/Gnome 2.2 is about twice as slow as Windows 2000 PRO SP4 on the same machine; and Gnome, I hear, is faster than KDE. What gives? I asked the MPlayer people how can I set up the prefs to play a videoclip "forever", like in WMP or RP. The reply came: "gmplayer -loop 0". No comments. Well, I assume that, if I upgraded to a more recent Linux distro, such as Suse 9.1, I might have access to better desktop tools (and maybe better performance, too?). But then again, I would have to reinstall everything. Bottom line, market gain for the Linux Desktop requires shere functionality more than unwarranted enthusiasm.
I base my conclusions on direct experience with SuSE from versions 7.2 up to 9.1, and an assortment of Nvidia clones, some with one monitor, others with 2, and one with 3 monitors, one twin-head AGP card and one PCI card, all Nvidia. But, right now, it works really well for me, with no noticeable driver bugs for a long while, maybe a year or more.
Mandrake would have my vote: mp3 and DVD playback work out-of-the-box.
Sorry, but I had to download libdvdcss to get DVD playback working. Maybe you are using a 10.x distro... But in 9.2, I had to do some downloading to watch my movies.
OK, so here we have yet another manual on how to use a desktop. How do I surf web?! Double click Mozilla icon! If you're having difficulties remembering that Mozilla is a web browser, rename the icon "WEB BROWSER".
Linux is "ready for the desktop", it's been ready for years. What it isn't ready for is typical desktop users. The various linux desktops out there are very nice and accommodate most of the stuff that typical desktop users would want to do. However, where Linux fails the typical desktop user is on three key points:
Software/Driver installation
Software/Driver deinstallation and/or upgrade
Troubleshooting
Now, before I get the misconceptions brigade sticking their placards up my bottom, I should point out that there are some great tools to help you install and de-install applications on Linux. A lot of them are unfortunately based around RPM, which is a pretty dreadful package format at best. Users need to adopt a new mindset when installing things on Linux.
Firstly, there's problems in the community, especially with with Linux app websites and naming things. "Binary". What is a binary? It sure isn't an executable file. A JPEG is a binary. This will confuse users who have no idea what a binary is. Binary packages should be renamed "Installation packages", and directed at users (i.e. they should be offered first, the source distribution should be offered in a developer section of a site).
Second, it's with dependencies. What is a dependency? Why does this application I just downloaded complain that I don't have some seemingly unrelated application installed? "Well that's because the seemingly unrelated application provides shared object files that your application needs. You could try and download the statically linke---" AARGH. Distribute the shared objects required along with your installation packages. If they're already in the system, your installer should detect this and not update system files (like Windows does). Dependencies are the number one reason that installing stuff on Linux can be a real pain.
Another thing wrong is what happens when stuff goes wrong. Who do you call? Usually your mate who knows a bit about this Linux thing and can fix it up for you. Failing that, you go to an internet café and trawl through endless forums and howto's, which you probably won't be able to find, let alone make sense of, being a typical desktop user.
You want to install drivers for something? Forget it. This sometimes even involves recompiling your OS kernel in extreme situations. Rarely will an installer be happy to help you with the installation process for drivers. You're expected to know how, and you're expected to read and understand the terminology used in the INSTALL file which is normally something along the lines of "we used automake, so it's the standard process for that, configure, make, make install". To which the end user says "what?!".
Most Linux advocates instantly seem to shrug off the idea that a user would want to do something as technical as installing the drivers for the new scanner they just bought at Walmart.
The above problems are not the fault of Linux, but of the state of the community. For Linux to become more user friendly, the community needs to become more user friendly. Mozilla's website is a good example of something heading in the right direction, with friendly icons and simple instructions. However, most other software sites are lagging behind.
Linux needs to standardize installation and setup procedures between distros to make the process of installing and setting up each application familiar.
The problem is that Linux started out as a hackers OS, whereas Win32 started out as MS-DOS: an idiot's OS. DOS was simple. Underpowered, yes, badly written, yes, but simple. Windows has always tried to build on simplicity (and it has pretty much failed but what the hell). Linux has to somehow dumb down most of it's doctrines for end users. Simplifying downwards is a lot
the entire thing is under an attributions-required OSI-approved Creative Common license, and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer)
A guide to set up OpenOffice comes in OpenOffice-only format...
Yeah, I know they have PDF too. But what if somebody has troubles running X? Theh should have a plaintext version, too.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
All OpenOffice files and PDFs are now available.
Both torrents are up and running.
I'll try to get the presentations up as soon as possible too.
ISP can never secure your box. ISP has to be defaulted to be open at least for it's internal network, which is often large. ... It just turned out that he was from other department and temporally filling the gap in support.
... This is the same tragedy as in most of Windows software.
I never claimed otherwise. I said that people who follow the advice of their ISP will have secure boxes.
1. Linux doesn't suggest firewall, it is enabled by default
2. So, having firewall that works in both directions is out-of-touch? Windows fw blocks only outside traffic, inside is not checked.
1. XP's firewall is enabled by default if you tell Windows that it's using a home connection (either DSL, Cable Modem, or Dial-Up Model.) If you tell it it's on a LAN, the firewall is off by default. XP SP2's is on by default regardless. What behavior would you recommend?
2. "inside" traffic? What are you talking about? Why would Windows firewall off localhost? Or do you mean something different?
Yeah, Windows starts Office faster, otherwise everything is dog slow
Wrong. Is Windows as fast as a Linux install? I think everyone will agree that Windows boots faster than Linux, that's a no-brainer. You *might* have an install of Linux that runs faster than Windows in general, but if you do it's probably been custom-compiled for the specific machine or something similar. Either way, calling Windows "dog-slow" just proves my point-- you don't use Windows.
Oh, also, Office doesn't have any hooks into the OS. The Office and the Windows teams don't even talk to each other.
Me and you obviously live on different planet. On our planet Windows is like a magnet to viruses, spyware and other malware.
Ok... but what does that have to do with system stability? Oh right, nothing.
Not for my needs. I agree that everyone without a clue what to do with his computer or someone who just wants to play games it is easier. But then again I have a clue and I have PS2.
Ok, but the Windows install is easier to use for *everyone's* needs. It's not like making the OS easier to use for neophytes at the same time makes it hard to use for advanced users. Make that claim at a OS X user meeting and you'd be laughed out the door.
Are you saying that everyone who wants to play videogames on the PC doesn't have a clue? What about MMORPGs or flight simulators? Great, you own a PS2, but why can't you accept that, hey, maybe I *like* to break out my joystick and play Jane's WWII Fighters sometimes?
Better security model as in....???? Windows hasn't got even real multi user environment.
So now you're blaming Microsoft because some other developer ignored their suggestions and has buggy software. Look, you can get the best OS on the planet, and still write buggy software for it... this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Windows. And Windows' Policy system is, from my experience, easier to work with and more powerful than Linux permissions are.
Windows is just getting with security where Linux was 5 years ago. For your information. Linux is moving away again with SELinux to be enabled by default.
The default install of Windows might suck, but it has the capability of being just as, or more, secure than Linux. As for not being a true multiuser system... who cares? I have a OS X box that's a "true multiuser system" and I never make use of more multiuser features than Windows has anyway.
Your comment is too stupid to be modded up, even if you beg as you do.
It might be stupid, but it's not as stupid as your reply.
At least I can tell the difference between "lose" and "loose" and don't spell Microsoft with a dollar-sign like a third grader might.
My point was that Slashdot users are out-of-touch with what Windows does; you proved it. Your so biased that you can't even begin to objectively compare, say, Suse with Windows XP... you'd write off XP as pathetic before you even got through the splash screen.
Comment of the year
...is:
"In order to start using your system you will usually have to perform what is known as a user login."
Great introduction on how to use a computer. It would make sense to someone who knew how to use a computer. Er.
This really highlights what open source needs. The product is fantastic. But it needs good documentation. This it does not have and shows no signs of gaining.
Sorry guys, it's back to the drawing board. Again.
I never claimed otherwise. I said that people who follow the advice of their ISP will have secure boxes.
So you agree with me, but I just made addition about ISP support not being up to the task mostly.
1. XP's firewall is enabled by default if you tell Windows that it's using a home connection (either DSL, Cable Modem, or Dial-Up Model.) If you tell it it's on a LAN, the firewall is off by default. XP SP2's is on by default regardless. What behavior would you recommend?
Always on. Running like this you can prevent more things than you imagine. Example: If LAN is active, you can block any traffic on port 25 that doesn't go on default SMTP. Two benefits, viruses either can't be sent or you easily track which computer is infected
2. "inside" traffic? What are you talking about? Why would Windows firewall off localhost? Or do you mean something different?
Previous example was just one of possibilities
Wrong. Is Windows as fast as a Linux install? I think everyone will agree that Windows boots faster than Linux, that's a no-brainer. You *might* have an install of Linux that runs faster than Windows in general, but if you do it's probably been custom-compiled for the specific machine or something similar. Either way, calling Windows "dog-slow" just proves my point-- you don't use Windows.
Boots??? All of my machines get rebooted only when some kernel gets updated. My notebook??? Tweaked services which I need boot just as fast ass XP. I never custom compile Linux. I've got bussines to run. For the last, I have to use Windows for some purposes. When you write crossplatform software that's one of the sorry dependancies. And when it comes to my Windows session, I browse the net and e-mail there too. Openoffice runs in both platforms. So, do I use Windows? unfortunatelly yes.
Oh, also, Office doesn't have any hooks into the OS. The Office and the Windows teams don't even talk to each other.
That's a new one. "Our Office suit is tightly integrated in OS, by using all of the features" or something like that. C'mon.
Ok, but the Windows install is easier to use for *everyone's* needs. It's not like making the OS easier to use for neophytes at the same time makes it hard to use for advanced users. Make that claim at a OS X user meeting and you'd be laughed out the door.
*everyone's* is not me. btw. most of my friends are Mac2Linux or Win2Linux converts. *OSX metting* Actualy I did that. First I was laughed then I was remembered. There is a lot of flaws in OSX. For one. OSX doesn't support CMYK printer profiles (cups is it's engine, and cups is yet to support CMYK profiles). There's no decent mailer. Running in semi administrative mode, et cetera. I'm prepared to go further if you'd like.
Are you saying that everyone who wants to play videogames on the PC doesn't have a clue? What about MMORPGs or flight simulators? Great, you own a PS2, but why can't you accept that, hey, maybe I *like* to break out my joystick and play Jane's WWII Fighters sometimes?
Good for you.
So now you're blaming Microsoft because some other developer ignored their suggestions and has buggy software
Developers can't write software without specs. Those were publised 3 months ago. Does that make that fortune tellers are the best coders???
this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Windows.
If there's no specs for OS, that makes it OS problem
The default install of Windows might suck, but it has the capability of being just as, or more, secure than Linux.
So securing Windows Install does require knowledge? I tought you said all is plug'n'play
As for not being a true multiuser system... who cares? I have a OS X box that's a "true multiuser system" and I never make use of more multiuser features than Windows has anyway.
So there is a SEWindows, (SE stands for NSA's Security Enhanced). No multiuser nee
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
All the slides are now mirrored too.
e /linux-userguide-sxi.torrent
There's also a new torrent for the slides at:
http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguid
Sheesh talk about shooting the messenger! Apparently I'm a troll because I'm pointing out the bleeding obvious.
Linux is not built for someone who never wants to get their hands dirty with knowing how the computer works. There's still too much you have to configure by hand, too much that can go wrong that will REQUIRE you to hand edit files etc.
Most non-technical Windows users will not ever need to edit the registry. Telling these users that they should switch to Linux is totally ridiculous and a great way to get people off side when it is quite possible that if you bring them on board later on, they'll think it's wonderful. This is hurting Linux.
Slashdot readership are by nature early adopters who want to fiddle with the technology. 95% of the world could care less about how the computer works. They would never want source code because they don't know what to do with it and don't care, so they're not going to crusade like Stallman to get it.
They just think that when something doesn't work and its not an obvious fix, its crap. Period. No "oh I should learn more about this". Much in the same way that a lot of motorists don't want to know much about what goes on under the bonnet of a car. If they have to fiddle with it, its broken and its crap. They'll call the auto club and if they have to do that often enough they'll replace it with something more reliable. The sooner the otherwise very intelligent people who develop Linux and who I have a great deal of respect for generally come to terms with this concept the better.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
How many .ini or registry files do you know of on linux? and how self explanatory, convenient or efficient is the windows system registry. That is not a horror I hope ever gets into linux.
/etc/ directory for starters.
Answer first question. Take a good look at the
Answer to second question. Registry sux BUT you can get away with NEVER using it as a Windows user. Mostly its about tweaking which you don't need to do. If you HAVE to (as in when you have a virus) the steps for fixing the problem are usually set out so that anyone with the most basic skills could fix it. Under Linux, good luck finding precise well written instructions, because its a hit and miss afair.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Oh I'm sorry, I'll add one more step then.
Install drivers from Manufacturers CD.
Done fixed finished.
Try and find a manufacturer's CD with all your Linux drivers in one place, or for that matter a manufacturer with official support for Linux.
You can always buy a piece of hardware that doesn't work as advertised, or doesn't have standard drivers on the OS install CD. How is this an argument that Linux is better exactly?
Gimme a break!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
basically i'd like it in a format that i can read. on the main page yesterday there was one link i saw, that hyperlinked to a proprietary format. i didn't search too long, but i couldn't locate the pdf file. if you'd like to give me the link, i'd appreciate it. sorry if i sounded too harsh...i get upset when people who are trying to make things free and easy to attain are inadvertently making things inconvenient at times.
What'll kick butt is when the iw2200 driver gets finished.
I wrote:
To get the remaining hardware working under linux I had to download a driver for the wireless card and adjust the screen resolution.
I used ipw2200-0.4, which now does work, and it's will be in at least 1 kernel for Mandrake 10.1 (hopefully the default too).
Install drivers from Manufacturers CD.
...
Actually, it's:
Install 3 driver CDs from the Manufacturer, and wait 2 hours for them to install (this is after wiating 2 hours for XP itself to install).
Try and find a manufacturer's CD with all your Linux drivers in one place, or for that matter a manufacturer with official support for Linux.
You may have noticed that I only needed one additional driver, since at the time Mandrake 10.0 shipped, this driver did not exist. It will be in 10.1, and then, installation of linux on this model will be possible in 15 with all hardware working and all necessary software installed, vs 4 hours to get XP installed with no useful software.
How is this an argument that Linux is better exactly?
You were the one arguing Linux wasn't ready for the desktop, now it seems you're trying to defend XP
"Finished" as in "1.0 or beyond". :)
Or at least, all planned functionality included.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Just to set the record straight - I haven't labeled you as a troll. And while you may have some points, I think you're missing some other "obvious".
The problem is... neither is Windows. Sure, there are plenty of places you can go clicky-clicky and twiddle some config. But that doesn't explain WHY someone needs to do it... or what those values should be. Things go wrong with Windows too. And when they do, our neophyte either finds some instructions to follow or they go get help (via favor or pay).
Keep in mind that the modern Linux desktop-oriented distro is pretty good at offering clicky-clicky GUI config tools. Basic configurations are covered. But if something breaks badly, or you want to do something a bit out of the ordinary, you can get your Linux-savvy help to dig in and do what's needed.
Just like Windows.
Maybe... maybe not. It depends entirely on what they want to configure or what needs to be fixed.
A fair enough point. However, if not now... when? Personal computers are complex. They've always been and will likely continue to be no matter how refined the interfaces become. The microcomputer has dealt with complexity for decades now... yet that hasn't stopped its adoption by the mainstream.
I would suggest that at this point, Linux is good enough. It needs more hardware and commercial software support - which it is getting. And it could always benefit from improvements - which is happening. But where it is today is a solid enough platform that offers good functionality for the majority of common computing tasks.
Another thing to consider is that perfection is not a requirement for success. A decade or so ago, we could have been having this debate over the merits of MacOS vs. Windows (or more accurately, "Mac vs. PC"). Mac users would point out the superior interface and configuration . Windows / PC users would point out the advantages of not relying on a single vendor.
Again - you've got a generally good point. And I agree that Linux should continue to improve. But from my personal experience (years doing admin and tech support and toying with personal computers since the early 80's) I'm inclined to say that it has less weight then you seem to believe it does.
One last point...
This same population doesn't understand how to build systems. They don't know how to maintain them. If left to their own devices, they would have continued trudging along without microcomputers or the Internet. Their ignorance is not wisdom.
The mis perception that people get about source code, et al is that they need to use it personally. Heck, I haven't touched but a fraction of a percent of code I have available to me. But I have benefited personally and professionally from that code availability as people with similar interests as mine HAVE brought about changes to code bases that I ultimately use. I have also benefited from separate systems that, due to the transparency of code and open standards, are completely compatible with each other.
Give me a break, is this some open source geek's attempt at a joke. The problem with linux isn't that people don't know how to browse the web, or launch a word processor, the problem is that most users even with an excellent understanding of computers can't install a freaking linux video driver, connect to the internet or network, or get their sound card to work properly in the Linux environment. Chances are that someone running Linux already knows enough about a computer to be able to recognize how to launch a web browser and initiate a download, regardless of what desktop they are using. User experience problems with Linux are much more deeply engrained then at the app level.
Now get person A conviced of using a computer is easy. (A is someone who doesn't know the word click) Then prove he is doing better than a person B using another OS! (A=B)
make install, not war
The plural of child is children.