More iPod Killers Introduced for the Holiday

An anonymous reader writes "MP3newswire.net has just released part III and part IV of their iPod Killers for Xmas list. Standouts are a $1200 24K gold-plated player from Jens of Sweeden, a 137 Gig unit called the Xclef, Sony's first true MP3 player, and iRiver's MPEG-4 video jukebox. If you missed them, here are parts I and II."

Comments

Kill the killer

[pedestrian crossing]

Can we do away with the "iPod Killer" thing, it's old. Nothing is going to "kill" the iPod, it has establised itself as the standard for better or worse. It's like the Walkman. In fact, the iPod is the Walkman killer. Nothing that comes out in the short term is going to be an iPod killer.

Re:Kill the killer

[caston]

Well the ipod is very expensive. Eventually a device will come out for about $100 that can store enough gigabyte of music to make it worthwhile carrying around.

Re:Kill the killer

[jsebrech]

But just like with the walkman and the discman, there will be cheaper players, there will be better players, but it will still be the standard that everything is measured by, and that sells consistently well.

Re:Kill the killer

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod and the iTMS have entrenched themselves as the defacto standard of portable music (and music store). I go to The University of Texas at Austin and the campus is saturated with iPods. My estimate is that 80-90% of students with an MP3 player carry an iPod. You can tell because of the headphones... its becoming sort of a status symbol (like the Lance Armstrong - Livestrong wrist bands).

Other companies *wish* they had an iPod killer because they want a chunk of the media player pie. However, it's going to take a lot more than a bunch of bells and whistles on a bloated player. They need to create something that frankly... looks cool (stylish.. not StarTrek nerd).

Nothing on that list looks stylish... it all looks futuristic and some sorority girl won't want to carry that.

Re:Kill the killer

[Peyna]

Nothing that costs 4x as much as the iPod will lead to its demise, but if someone made a very comparable product that cost 1/2 as much, then you might have some good competition at least. All that it would really do is serve to bring the price of the units down, which would be the greatest thing for all of us.

Re:Kill the killer

[Peyna]

Apple has never had to deal with competition like that before. They manage to keep their computers priced much higher than PCs, because they held a niche market. While it might be nice to think that Apple would drop their price to $50; I don't have that much faith in Apple's ability to compete.

Re:Kill the killer

[nomadic]

Nothing is going to "kill" the iPod

Used properly, this will.

Re:Kill the killer

[aacool]

What bugged me most about the iPod is the not inconsiderable additional outlay I would have to make on cables, adaptors, etc. In my mind at least, the iPOd was dead. Over the last two months, I have picked up two Creative Nomad Muvo TX FM players - they are only 256 MB each - I actually like that because it gives me a constant chance to decide my daily playlist on my computer

Furthermore, The player itself converts effortlessly into a USB drive for those urgent file copy needs. Also, it plays FM, looks slick, has a single-button interface and the wife loves it - two players for $160 total.

Finally, WMP 10 killed my constant usage of iTunes as well mainly because of the Sync List feature.

The news that Apple is willing to turn off features in its iTunes, a la 4.7, is not surprising and I, for one, am glad I do not have an iPod.

Bang! Bang!

Re:Kill the killer

[Scudsucker]

I don't have that much faith in Apple's ability to compete.

With respect to music players....huh?

Introduced a superior product? check
Well marketed? check
Brand awareness? check
Product seen as status symbol? bonus

And the very fact that Apple has survived and thrived in the cutthroat computer industry speaks well for them. Just because they don't get in the race to see who can throw out the cheapest box of spare parts doesn't mean they aren't compeditive. Apple is one of the top 5 computer manufacturers in the world. They're bigger than McDonalds.

Re:Kill the killer

[Trurl's Machine]

Can we do away with the "iPod Killer" thing, it's old. Nothing is going to "kill" the iPod, it has establised itself as the standard for better or worse. It's like the Walkman. In fact, the iPod is the Walkman killer.

With all due respect, sir, you seem to contradit yourself. If iPod cannot be killed because it's like Walkman - and iPod is also a Walkman killer... you can't kill iPod, because it is like something it has killed?

Personally I think iPod can be killed, precisely because it is like Walkman. But I don't think that Yet Another Digital Music Player will be the iPod killer - I rather think it will be something as different as iPod is different from Walkman. Something based on entirely different technology, allowing - say - on-the-go wireless immediate purchase from online shop with even bigger choice than iTMS.

PS. I'm a die-hard iPod fan, I bought three of them since the 1st gen; but I also owned several Walkmans...

Re:Kill the killer

[legirons]

"More iPod Killers Introduced for the Holiday"

Blimey, with this many assasins, you'd think the iPod ran BSD or something... whatever happened to the word "competitor"?

Re:Kill the killer

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod got into the situation because any moron can use iTunes, any moron can use the iPod itself and any moron knows it looks damn good. Nerds such as most slashdotters put looks and out-of-box ease-of-use far down on the priority list (cf. WinXP vs Stage 1 Gentoo install) and this is completely different to the way the common man thinks.

Re:Kill the killer

[GFLPraxis]

What bugged me most about the iPod is the not inconsiderable additional outlay I would have to make on cables, adaptors, etc.

What the heck are you talking about? The iPod comes with the firewire cable, USB 2.0 cable, AC adpter, and headphones. You keep the headphones on your ears, and use either firewire or USB for connecting to the computer. That's IT. What not inconsiderable outlay on cables and adapters are you talking about? Methinks you know very little about iPods.

In my mind at least, the iPOd was dead.

See above. There is nothing wrong with the iPod. You walk over to the computer and plug in the firewire cable.

Over the last two months, I have picked up two Creative Nomad Muvo TX FM players - they are only 256 MB each - I actually like that because it gives me a constant chance to decide my daily playlist on my computer

You can decide your playlist on the iPod as well, except you wouldn't have to re-upload every day ;)

Furthermore, The player itself converts effortlessly into a USB drive for those urgent file copy needs. Also, it plays FM, looks slick, has a single-button interface and the wife loves it - two players for $160 total.

Single button interface? See click wheel.

Finally, WMP 10 killed my constant usage of iTunes as well mainly because of the Sync List feature.

Windows Media Player 10. Over iTunes. *snicker*

The news that Apple is willing to turn off features in its iTunes, a la 4.7, is not surprising

What are you talking about? iTunes 4.7 adds Photo orginization for the iPod Photo.

and I, for one, am glad I do not have an iPod.

So am I. You obviously don't know enough about iPods to use one, no matter how simple the interface. Sorry for being a bit rude, but this post was so know-it-all and anti-iPod that I got annoyed.

Re:Kill the killer

[Peyna]

There is no reasonable competition for the iPod right now; so they're not competing. Any comparable products are either: more expensive, bigger, less storage. I don't consider any product that is deficient in any of those categories to be reasonable competition with an iPod.

Re:Kill the killer

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

They have the disposable income to drop on expensive goods and will only do so if the expensive item will make them look stylish.

So, yes, it is the sorority girls of the world who matter.

Re:Kill the killer

[aacool]

I'm sorry if you were offended - it was a purely personal preference not intended to offend. The cost alone was a dealbreaker in my mind. Also, I have a jukebox for all my music so uploading it is easier than duplicating all of it.

That being said, the iPod does have excellent design & styling, has a great user interface and that's why we're talking about iPod killers, not Creative-killers.

Re:Kill the killer

[Peyna]

Then it's not competition; that's like Microsoft's argument for not being a monopoly.

Re:Kill the killer

[dubiousmike]

Can we do away with the "Nothing is going to "kill" the iPod" thing? I knew this thread would be riddled with them and voila...first moderated post. Every MP3 player that gets sold that ISN'T an IpOd is an IpOd killer. IpOds may have the most mind share and thus everyone selling within the market is gunning for them. The term "IpOd killer" is a compliment so know when to be graceful, mac-fan-boy.

"Nothing that comes out in the short term is going to be an iPod killer." Did a carnival psychic tell you that?

On the other hand, the cool photos on your website blalance out your close minded views on the MP3 player market.

Next generation cell phones, most of which will have MP3 players built in WILL be the IpOd killer, if a standalone doesn't do it first. Convergence of devices kills off lots of products.

Re:Kill the killer

[Tony Hoyle]

Odd.. must be a US thing.

I've only met one ipod user, and he got it cheap with a powerbook on educational discount.

Most other people have the standard 128MB MP3 'sticks' as they're a lot more convenient/cheaper/durable.

The best one price-wise (which it pretty much the only thing that matters with thise stuff.. it's an MP3 player, it plays MP3s) seems to be the Thompson, at half the cost of the ipod.

Convenience wise though you'll have to work hard to beat minidisk. Having to plug your player into a PC just to change albums gets old really fast.

Re:Kill the killer

[Tony Hoyle]

Eh? When's the last time you looked at comparable products then?

Ipod is 1.5 - 2* the price of its nearest competitor. It's just 'coolness' that keeps it selling.

All HD MP3 players have roughly the same storage options, even at the lower price.

Bigger? Who cares? We're not talking laptop size here..

Re:Kill the killer

[numark]

Convenience wise though you'll have to work hard to beat minidisk. Having to plug your player into a PC just to change albums gets old really fast.

Well, convenience also takes a big hit with the Minidisc format. In exchange for being able to change discs on the go, you have to be willing to convert all of your files to ATRAC. As well, you'll have to be willing to either listen to those files using a Sony player while on your computer, or keep around two copies, one in ATRAC and one in your preferred format used by your normal player. Doesn't seem very convenient to me.

Re:Kill the killer

[The Only Druid]

As I understand the original poster, this is what he's saying:

The Walkman couldn't be killed, because it was so solidified in its paradigm as the standard. The iPod, however, broke that paradigm and replaced it with its own, thereby 'killing' the walkman. Similarly, the iPod is the standard in its paradigm, so until a device sufficiently breaks the paradigm, its going to be hte standard.

Re:Kill the killer

[Tony Hoyle]

Firstly, you don't 'have to keep two copies'. ATRAC is the internal format stored on the disk. You never ever need to deal with it. Just plug the minidisc into the optical out of the sound card or hifi. I tend to go from the hifi as you get better quality that way - PC CD players are universally garbage.

Once you've recorded it onto disk it's there pretty much forever. New disks are dirt cheap.

Secondly, the 'normal player' for 99.999% of prople is the CD. You have to convert to MP3 to load into an iPod, with the added inconvenience that you need an expensive PC and lots of free disk space (plus copies of ripper programs which aren't for the uninitiated).

Remember most people don't even have a PC (maybe about 20% of my friends do) so the ipod isn't an option for them.

Re:Kill the killer

[TheAntiCrust]

Bigger is a really big thing with a portable MP3 player. So to answer your question, I care. I bought an Ipod becuase its so small and still has 40 gigs in it. When something has to fit in your pocket, almost all the time, it's nice to have it be slim and small.

Re:Kill the killer

[numark]

I apologize for the misunderstanding about the ATRAC. I was under the impression, from what I heard, that you had to convert to ATRAC on your computer first, then transfer the converted files to the minidisc.

Additionally, while the CD may be the normal player for most people, when we're talking about the iPod, etc., we're talking about a market for MP3 players already. People who use CDs are very unlikely to search out an iPod when they don't have a computer. Yes, Minidiscs may work for them, but they're not going to be an "iPod killer" solely because it's a totally different market altogether. To comment on the convenience of a minidisc when talking about competing with MP3 players is counterintuitive when the markets are quite different.

Re:Kill the killer

[Angostura]

Just a thought, can anyone think of any product dubbed the 'X kiler' that has actually ever killed product X? I can't? It seems a sure-fire way to ensure the 'killer product' fails.

Hmmm, there was the IBM 9370 Vax killer, of course - woo, that did well. Not.

Any other examples?

Re:Kill the killer

[iroll]

His point was that Walkman->iPod was a paradigm shift (Walkmans, Diskmans etc are now irrelevant). A new, keewler iPod clone is not going to kill the iPod; the only thing that can do that is another paradigm shift. Like implantable brain chips or something.

Re:Kill the killer

[geminidomino]

Hmm... coining a new phrase?

"When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like an iPod?"

Re:Kill the killer

[geminidomino]

Here's one killer that does what it claims.

Re:Kill the killer

[gordyf]

Why do you spell it with a big O?

Re:Kill the killer

[TheLittleJetson]

With all due respect, sir, you seem to contradit yourself. If iPod cannot be killed because it's like Walkman - and iPod is also a Walkman killer... you can't kill iPod, because it is like something it has killed?

The iPod is also not just another radio/tape player. The idea is, someone's gonna have to do better than make a portable hard-drive-based digital walkman, if they want to call it an "iPod killer". Otherwise, they're not innovating, they're simply entering an already saturated market with yet another similar device. None of these devices seem to "kill" the iPod. It's still selling.

Re:Kill the killer

[Fortimir]

...and it's unfortunate that it has become the standard. I've been with hard drive MP3 players since the Creative NOMAD Jukebox1... I wish Creative had known how to do what Apple did. I like Creative MP3 players much more. I still use my NOMAD Jukebox3. Apple rapes you on accessories. My mom just got an iPod, and she had to get a docking station, better headphones, a leather case, an adaptor so she can charge and sync at the same time (ridiculous), car charger, FM transmitter, remote, etc... You spend more on accessories than on the actual iPod. DEATH to non-user-replaceable batteries!

Re:Kill the killer

[harlows_monkeys]

I wish Creative had known how to do what Apple did. I like Creative MP3 players much more

Creative players don't implement the USB Mass Storage interface, so you can't use them as data drives. Yes, you CAN store data on them, but only by using Creative's proprietary software, or a third party reverse engineered clone of that software.

That rules them out for me.

Re:Kill the killer

[emorphien]

yeah. i'm tired of it. The iPod is the market leader. Other products have killed it long before in every manner except market success... pretty much only a result of the steamrolling iPod. It's dead techincally, but it's a spirited seller.

players like the Creative or iRiver are much better options for people once they decide what they need. iPod hardly excels in any area.

Re:Kill the killer

[Moofie]

Uh, probably all the people who bought iPods care about smaller. I KNOW all the people who pay the premium for the Mini (you know, the one that has been selling like mad since its introduction) care about size.

If you think that "Best UI available in a portable player" is part of the "coolness", I agree.

I don't give a teeny shit about what's "cool". But I paid for my iPod, happily, because it's the best available player at any price.

Re:Kill the killer

[Moofie]

Er, wouldn't you pay extra for all those accessories for your precious Nomad? Am I crazy?

Re:Kill the killer

[Moofie]

Two words.

User Interface.

Since I am the user, and I spend my time interfacing with the device, that is the most important feature. Period. And nobody does it better than Apple.

Re:Kill the killer

[Arru]

I guess without a computer the iPod is a bit inconvenient ;)

However, isn't really the analogy to changing disc in your MiniDisc player to select another album on your iPod? One might think that's easier than switching minidiscs... The iPod mini carries 1000 songs ? 100 minidiscs. If you are taking 10 minidiscs along you're packed, and that also seems to me less convenient than carrying just the iPod.

Now, syncing your iPod to the computer would be analogous to recording another miniDisc which is done in...real time? Or if you got the PC link you can transfer songs by USB which is still less than a tenth of the speed of FireWire. AND you'd have to change discs a lot of time for the same amount of songs.

Am I missing some important convenience feature of MiniDiscs??? Or is it just 128 MB MP3 'sticks' - not iPods - that are getting old real fast? Though, you are probably right about the 'US thing'. Here in Sweden iPods aren't all that common. A lot of people got the small 128/256 players, although this seems to be changing. Until the game is over, let's cut down on the wishful "iPod killing" please.

Re:Kill the killer

[pedestrian crossing]

Yes, the iPod has a good UI. Personally, there are other features that I rate much higher than a good UI that the iPod doesn't have. I just don't spend that much time using the UI, I bought a device to listen to (and record with!), not fiddle endlessly with...

$1200 for 24K?

[meringuoid]

... How much music can you fit in that kind of space? At one meg a minute, typical for MP3, that's... about one and a half seconds. Surely you expect a little more for twelve hundred dollars these days?

Re:$1200 for 24K?

[neonstz]

RTFA. It plays Ogg Vorbis, so you'll get about 2 seconds of music with the same quality as the 1,5 second MP3.

Re:$1200 for 24K?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the 24K is referring to gold karats...

Re:$1200 for 24K?

[Ohreally_factor]

I believe the 24K is referring to gold karats...

So they're hoping to capture the rich rabbit market?

Re:$1200 for 24K?

[ad0gg]

$1200 for $0.10 worth of gold that is going flake off eventually.

i fail to see...

[sinnfeiner1916]

how any of these are "iPod Killers"... first of all, none of them have killed the iPod. Secondly, some do more, such as playing video, and probably put themselves into a different catigory. Thirdly, a gold played mp3 player is dumb.

Also, they don't have iTunes or iTMS. Nothing is going to kill the iPod without the whole package.

and f.p. b-otch.

Re:i fail to see...

[JKatan]

I agree with you whole-heatedly , the ipod/itunes/ITMS are all tied in so closely that you really have to have equivalent products/solutions to be able to truly compete with apple's music player.

And seriously, what's all the fuss about handheld devices that can play video? i really dont see why you would want to watch a movie on a tiny screen with crummy audio. to me, there's no real use for a portable video player (and by portable i mean handheld,i.e. not a powerbook). in fact, can anyone really think of a good use for one?

Re:i fail to see...

[JKatan]

whoops, that's whole-heartedly. haha

Re:i fail to see...

[nomadic]

Thirdly, a gold played mp3 player is dumb.

Don't be ridiculous; if I had an ipod it would just clash horribly with my gold medallions and my extensive collection of gold rings, including that one that goes on all my fingers at once and has my name spelled out in diamonds.

Some of us have style, man, and that's why we need the gold-plated mp3 players.

Re:i fail to see...

[Rellik66]

Don't be ridiculous; if I had an ipod it would just clash horribly with my gold medallions and my extensive collection of gold rings, including that one that goes on all my fingers at once and has my name spelled out in diamonds.

The correct term is "Bling Bling"

So many ipod killers

[Norgus]

Yet the ipod isn't dead!

I wonder if they got the sack.

Re:So many ipod killers

[ScrewMaster]

You have to drive a stake through the hard drive.

Re:So many ipod killers

[evilviper]

Yet the ipod isn't dead!

Mine is.

Maybe they are iPod battery killers then? Striking every 18 months?

Re:So many ipod killers

[archen]

Mac fans must be a wreck most of the time considering they are using products from Apple - a company always about to go out of business which uses an OS based off of BSD which is always dying and produces a product like the ipod for which there are about 20 new "killers" released every quarter.

Re:So many ipod killers

[aristotle-dude]

It cannot be killed because it's undead.

Argh

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Sweden, and not Sweeden.
It's Jens's and not Jen's. Jens is a name for crying out loud.

Re:Argh

[flosofl]

No, the grandparent is right. Normally a noun ending with an s has the apostrophe appended with no extra s. However, when the noun in question is only one syllable, it requires an 's.

I think the fact that its a singular noun (someone's name) that ends with an s also plays into it, but I'm too lazy to pull out my "Elements of Style."

Just my $0.02 worth of pedantic nit-picking :)

Re:Argh

[flosofl]

And yes I messed up it's in the above post (just heading it off at the pass.)

its = possesive of it it's = it is

crud.

$1200 for an mp3 player

[jlefeld]

After spending that much money I don't have any money left for legal music.

iPod killers!

[Peyna]

Did anyone else get the image of some serial killer known by the name "The iPod Killer" that managed to find someway to turn an iPod into a murderous device?

If not, I blame Daylight Saving Time. (I just moved from a non-DST state to a DST state.)

Re:iPod killers!

[neonstz]

Unfortunately, it has already been done.

Re:iPod killers!

[mOoZik]

Oh. My. God. W. T. F. *imagines the horror*

Re:iPod killers!

[FlashpointWork]

The best part in this article is the ad placed in the middle of the page: "RELATED NEWS: Get great deals on the new Apple iPod mini. Starting at under $250".

Advertising. Never shameless.

Re:iPod killers!

[Decimal Dave]

This has to be the best line from that report:

"It took him a while to die," Dr. Klamut said. "She must have stabbed him 40 to 80 times with that iPod. His death was not instantaneous, that's for sure"

Flash prices

[Mistlefoot]

When flash eventually becomes cheap enough that I can put my music collection on it I'll consider an alternative. Removing the harddrive from the equation will offer a bit more durability and long term health.

I really don't see any advantage to buying something other then a 'proven' iPod when all other comparable products will cost the same price.

Where's the advantage?

Re:Flash prices

[angrist]

I'll stick to hard-drives myself, the limited read/write life of flash just wouldn't hold up.

Re:Flash prices

[toddestan]

Given the reliability of harddrives nowadays, my guess is the harddrive player will die much sooner than the flash memory player. Flash memory is rated for something like 10,000 - 100,000 writes.

Re:Flash prices

[lachlan76]

Remember that you can boot a Mac from an iPod - swap will bring it down fast.

Re:Flash prices

[toddestan]

I guess this might be an issue for those people who like to boot their computers with their mp3 players a lot. Now for the rest of us...

bonus technology

[v1]

Anyone else notice on the "Jens of Sweden MP-400", that besides being nicely compact, it's got an OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diodes) display?

http://www.mp3newswire.net/Graphics/Jens%20MP400 .j pg

Re:bonus technology

[Animaether]

nokarma clickable linky : http://www.mp3newswire.net/Graphics/Jens%20MP400.j pg

Re:bonus technology

[jensen404]

It's also way overpriced at $500 for the 1GB version. You can get a 1GB flash drive that is the size of a couple of pennies for only $78.

Re:bonus technology

[vicparedes]

Plus, it also ships in a flatbox with four screws and an allen wrench. Definitely unböring.

Re:bonus technology

[Arru]

Hmm Apple must really be feeling the heat.

My suggested response: bundle all iPods with matching propeller caps for added tech value.

MPIO

[N8F8]

I've had an MPIO FL100 since I bought it last christmas. MPIO/Digitalway, the manfacturer, does a better job than most electronics manufactures in updating the firmware. For a craction of a price, at least take a look. The iPod is a sexy piece of electronics though.

Re:MPIO

[ScrewMaster]

Very very English-as-a-second-language:

Very irresistible, Very luxury, Very you Recognize as a disk without installing anything additional.

I'm not sure what that means, exactly. But the pictures were very pretty.

Re:MPIO

[FlopEJoe]

The Japanese version lists it as "Super, happy, lucky, fun, mp3!"

Actually, the MPIOs look pretty good. The AAA battery is go0d for foriegn travel and I'm too chicken shit to plug something into the wall. And I like the built in USB plug. Wish they had removable memory though. FY400

Re:Yes

[antifoidulus]

eh, I think that these people might disagree.... :P

Sweeden?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never heard of this place called Sweeden . Must be a small town in Canada or something.

Re:Sweeden?

[Ohreally_factor]

but it's pronounced "borkborkbork".

DCube NHD-150D

[eddy]

I've got the DCube on my list.

maker UK seller SE seller

Ipod is to music what MS is to software.

[lucason]

I wouldn't use an Ipod if they threw it in my face.

There are so many better mp3 players out there that I just don't understand all the "iPod standard" crap.

It's to big for a compact player.
If you don't care about size, but only about capacity there are products that will beat it 4 fold.
And it's to expensive compared to it's rivals.

And to top it off: Ipod is to music what MS is to software.

Re:Ipod is to music what MS is to software.

[vicparedes]

I wouldn't use an Ipod if they threw it in my face.

There's a slim chance that you'd be able to use it anyway, iPods aren't exactly indestructible. And neither does your face.

There are so many better mp3 players out there that I just don't understand all the "iPod standard" crap.

When you have the largest marketshare, you are the standard.

Prices

[Norgus]

I actually went to RTFA and I don't even see any prices (or predixcted prices)
Am I missing something?

Sweeden?

[Ossifer]

I think it's spelled "Sweeeden".

dammit

[Anonymous Coward]

ogg vorbis seems to be becoming a pretty standard feature on these new portables. Now what am I going to complain about.

Re:dammit

[NecoX]

That it doesn't work with iTunes/ITMS, obviously.

Dupe?

[Vicsun]

I remember having read this 'ipod-killer' story before...



DAMN THOSE EDITORS!!!

iPod killer?

[Bastian]

Half of these don't even come close to competing with the iPod. The ones that play movies are more in competition with portable DVD players and Game Boys. Others just don't look like good buys compared to an iPod or iRiver. (Why am I going to pay $500 for a 1GB player when I can pay half that for a 6GB player that's not much larger?)

Personally, I think that the thing that really makes the iPod, and which I have failed to see in any competitor, isn't iTMS or iTunes, or the sexy design, or even the fact that you can put a scratch on it by looking at it for too long. It's the interface. Starting with the jog dial (which I haven't seen on anything else. Scroll wheels don't count.) and going to the software UI, I haven't tried out another player that comes close to being as easy to use as an iPod. Heck, the iPod is so much more pleasent to use that I'd gladly take one over a player that sports 20 more GB, costs $100 less, and is HDTV-ready.

Re:iPod killer?

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Before they were bought out and when their support was horrible, Rio had a product out called the "Rio Riot"

I loved my riot more than I love my iPod.. But the problem with the Riot was that you had to use musicmatch jukebox to transfer music over usb 1.1 and you couldn't use it as a regular external hard drive. Oh, and the low-quality drive they used.

I love my iPod, though. But I only have it because the Archos I replaced my Riot with died, and best buy let me trade the Archos Jukebox for a 40gb 4G iPod.

Re:iPod killer?

[Have Blue]

The jog wheel hasn't shown up on anything else because Apple patented it.

The secret to the iPod's success isn't the ITMS, or the sexy design, or any other single feature. It was the way Apple managed to provide all those features at once and link them together in well-thought-out ways.

Re:iPod killer?

[Bastian]

Apple can't have a patent on all jog wheels; I was using jog wheels on video editing equipment ten years ago. It's probably the touchpad jog wheel, which is nice but not necessary.

Re:iPod killer?

[Jason Ford]

Cool; the bill that prevents companies from patenting things for which prior art exists must have just passed the other day! This will easily reduce the number of patent-related stories on Slashdot by 75%!

Of course, I'm only kidding. It's important to remember that the Patent Office isn't very good at preventing people from patenting things for which prior art exists. Apple could patent the jog wheel. The patent would then need to be invalidated.

Re:$1200 for 24K?-Pyrite and Brass ver on the way!

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the old saying goes:

A fool and his money are soon parted.

In this world, status and not reason, are the order of the day.

Besides that, won't the 24 karat plating on this iPod clone eventually 'wear away' from use? 24K gold is too soft to make jewelry out of so they have to add stuff like nickel to it to harden it up which lowers the rating down to 18 karat and 14 karat gold and so on.

Killer My Butt

[feldsteins]

First, all the me-too music players seem to forget a few things. Like the fact that sometimes less really is more. It's not about who has the biggest hard drive, or the biggest screen with the most colors. It's not about who has the most features or even the lowest price. It's about hitting the sweet spot with regard to features, battery life, storage capacity, size and price. None - absolutely none - of these would-be iPod Killers has shown that they understand and can execute based on this principle. (And think back: what made the original Palm a success? Sweet spot. It's that simple.)

The other thing that is often forgotten about the iPod's success is the fact that it's achieved damned near jewelry-level fashion accessory status. Put away all the jokes about Apple customers being Gucci-wearing fashion slaves. This technology is finally becoming ubiquitous enough to have to adhere to people's sense of taste and style. Like cell phones. Be glad. You want to make an iPod killer? It's going to have to be something people want to be seen with.

Finally, Apple is in a really enviable position because of their online music store. They were the first ones to implement a DRM scheme that is both tolerable to most purchasers and most copyright holders, as well as providing a first-rate buying experience. The combination of the best portable player and also the best online music store is an almost unbeatable one-two punch. You want an iPod killer? It'll have to interface with a good - no, very good - online music store. One with a proven recipe for success.

Just because Sony or Dell or iRiver or some other company announces yet-another-little-box-with-ear-buds-dangling-from -it doesn't mean we should start doing the job of their marketing department by tossing around the "iPod killer" label. I guess if we keep throwing this crap against the wall something will eventually stick. But you'll get no points for prognostication from me.

Re:Killer My Butt

[aristotle-dude]

He's using Safari's "check as you type" spell checker function.

Re:Killer My Butt

[crazy-metal]

yes... very correct. The Apple Store also helps them on their quest for jewlery status. Apple Store is found in many highclass, highstatus shopping centers next to the expensive specialy shops. Apple has done a very good job convicing the public that thier iPod is something special and worthy of praise. It is fine but iRiver is actually a little better in all respects. I believe there is a Sony player with over 20+ hours of battery life. Apple, my business could use your marketing department!

Re:Killer My Butt

[sp0rk173]

t's not about who has the most features or even the lowest price. It's about hitting the sweet spot with regard to features, battery life, storage capacity, size and price. None - absolutely none - of these would-be iPod Killers has shown that they understand and can execute based on this principle.

Bullshit. Apple didn't "hit" the sweetspot, they simply marketted their product as having hit the sweetspot, and it worked. For example, the Rio Karma has better playback quality, plays more types of files, has longer batterly life, is smaller (though not slimmer), and is cheaper than the iPod that was out at the same time. Did it kill the iPod? No. Why not? It should have atl least taken away market share...well you hit part of the reason in your second point...

The other thing that is often forgotten about the iPod's success is the fact that it's achieved damned near jewelry-level fashion accessory status.

Bingo. The iPod because sucessful because it became part of a fashion craze - the moody indy kid walking around in faded jeans and a scarf in the middle of summer. The nihlistic teenager who finds solice only in crappy music sung about nothing. All the so-called artsy pseudo intellectuals out there LOVE the iPod. Why? Because it's so stylish!!! The white earbuds have become a status symbol among the youth and collegiates of America. I mean, how can you get chicks these days if you're not in all black, sans the iPod? "Man, look at Jeremy over there with his midnight-muave pumas and his sexy black scarf - oooooOOooo and he has an iPod! HE'S MINE BITCHES, STEP OFF!" The scene is far too common these days. Jeremy is a mac daddy, thanks to the iPod. Girls think they can change him, and guys wish they could be him. THAT is what made the iPod the defacto mp3 player. It wasn't playback quality, it wasn't a balance of features and price. No. It was simple mob fashion. And, I mean, that's what apple's best at - right?

Re:Killer My Butt

[feldsteins]

Bullshit. Apple didn't "hit" the sweetspot, they simply marketted their product as having hit the sweetspot...

Most competing players adhere to my "sweet spot" rule, even if this one may not. (Anyway, Apple got there first, that could be enough to tip the sales scale in their direction on this one.) It's interesting that your explanation for iPods success over this unit simply descends into a hateful rant against the people who buy them. (I don't think there's a successful marketing strategy there.) I think it far more likely that the most salient explanation is that Apple's player works with the first online music store worth a damn. The iRiver unit lets you put your existing CDs on it and maybe some indie shit you buy from one of the lesser known stores. Don't you think that could be an explanation rather than deriding portable music player owners as contemptuously shallow and pathetic?

Re:Killer My Butt

[sp0rk173]

Well, first of all, there was no hate in there. Contempt, sure, dislike, yeah - but just because someone buys a particular mp3 player based on trend-aware sheep mentality does not invalidate them as a human being. Hate is an emotion that dehumanizes and devalues a person based on an irrational preconcieved notion. All iPod users are no less valuable as a living, breating, thinking human than a non-iPod user. My point was iPod sales are just as much due to the current social trends of our time as they are due to any other factor.

I don't think there's a successful marketing strategy there.

Sooo...did you not see the iPod commercials early on? The hip late-teen-to-twenty-somethingers, all pretty, all happy, all dancing or singing along with their iPod? I'd say that's what got the ball rolling. There were other MP3 players before the iPod, but non were as sleek, non were as blatantly marketted towards a specific style and looks-concious audience than the iPod. The iPod was marketed to become a cultural symbol of the music-drenched college generation of the time. On top of that you have the colorful iPod mini's. Whats the first emboldened bullet of it's homepage? " Fashionably Compact." And it's tag line? "A Thousand Songs. Five Cool Colors." If you ask me, all of the colors, barring the silver one perhaps, are purge inducing. They are, however, being marketted as "Cool." Clearly as a fashion accessory.

I think it far more likely that the most salient explanation is that Apple's player works with the first online music store worth a damn.

Sure, if you like drm-encrusted industry formulated crap (with a few notable exceptions). Personally, I prefer audiolunchbox.com, but then again i'm of the punk and hardcore persuation, with a dash of everything-else-but-pop-and-rap tossed in. The iTunes Music Store sucks for people like me, who like to go beyond the status-quo of so-called "indy" music. One advantage i will give it, though, is it's integration with itunes. But thats just apple doing their thing. They produce great, well thought out and designed software. They just happen to also produce an inferior sounding product. I dunno about you, but soud quality is a major factor in my buying choice.

Don't you think that could be an explanation rather than deriding portable music player owners as contemptuously shallow and pathetic?

Except that's not what i did. Nice side jab there, though. If all "portable music player owners" are iPod owners, and if i did indeed say that ALL iPod owners are contemptuously shallow and pathetic (which i did not), then yes - This question would be valid. But, i didn't. I said that a majority of iPod owners fit this stereotype, and quite a few of those actually identify themselves with that stereotype. You might not be one of them, though you got pretty damned defensive in your reply.

So, here's what it comes down to. For mac users, the iPod is the obvious choice. If you want ease of use, integration with existing applications, and really really do subscribe to all that digital lifestyle bullshit that Jobs likes to throw out there, get an iPod. If you want superior sound quality and don't care about having the "in-thing", there are other choices out there. And, they happen to be less expensive, have more features, and are thus a better value. Or, in your terms, they hit the sweet spot more closely than apple does.

The iPod hit a marketting sweet spot. They struck a chord with many members of my generation and it reverberated through all the separate, distinct subcultures, crossed the "eww i don't want a Mac" barrier, and they became the king of the mp3-player domain. The evidence against the technical superiority of the iPod is out there. If you wish to ignore it, then you wish to ignore it. I can understand, they're expensive li

Did you see the reason for the argument?!!

[yeremein]

According to law officers, Mathers was hysterical when police arrived and told them that she killed her boyfriend only after he accused her of illegally downloading music and erased about 2,000 of her MP3s. Mathers complained that it took 3 months to build her music collection.

An autopsy performed Friday afternoon at Methodist Hospital showed that Brad Pulaski had been beat multiple times in the face and chest by a blunt metal object, and died of internal bleeding, said Dr. Felix Klamut, deputy coroner.

Wow. The RIAA has its first martyr.

Re:Did you see the reason for the argument?!!

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

You know that's not real, right?

Re:Did you see the reason for the argument?!!

[yeremein]

You know that's not real, right?

D'oh!

WiWJUTSM?

[gelfling]

which iPod would Jesus use to steal music?

Re:WiWJUTSM?

[smart.id]

He's probably only use the iPod. You know, the only iPod. Idiot.

Huh?

[FunWithHeadlines]

"And to top it off: Ipod is to music what MS is to software."

Whoa, that's some anti-Apple prejudice you got going on there. Let's see, for your statement to be based on facts instead of emotions, Apple would have to be threatening "to cut off the oxygen supply" of companies who sell competing mp3 players, charging companies more money unless they put "works best with iPod" logos on their web sites and catalogs, and actively trying to kill off competing firms.

Don't confuse market share with predatory practices. You can achieve 90% market share the right way (Apple), or the wrong way (MS).

Re:Huh?

[aristotle-dude]

So I have a choice of platforms too? Oh wait. No I don't. I have to use Windows media player running on "windows" to sync my MS certified device (read licensed) with the "Plays for Sure" logo on it. Some stores even require use of IE for windows. Sounds like MS has it's hand in it from end to end with also but with Apple, I would not be forced (if I was a PC user) to use their OS to use iTMS.

I think you have confused yourself by the illusion of choice you think you have with WMA. Al those stores require MS compatible software/hardware from end to end.

Actually, with either that commercial wine implementation or Maconlinux (if you have a PPC machine), you can run iTunes on linux if you wish. There are also hacks you can use to strip to DRM from iTMS songs which will allow you to then sync them with linux software or third-party windows software to your ipod or any ACC compatible player.

Re:Huh?

[iamacat]

Oh well, most of us are not accusing Microsoft of releasing Windows and Office and then not porting Office to run under Linux. There is no obligation for a company to help competition unless it's a remedy for their past abuses of monopoly status.

The problem would be Apple dumping free music on the market at a loss just to prevent anyone from making money on a music store. Or developing a portable video player on which it had no intention to make money just to derail competition.

But as it is, Apple is making good money on iPod and a modest income on the music store. Another company can do the same thing, and indeed there are many competing music stores and mp3 players.

Of course, it's your personal right to choose a more flexible service or device, although it's a bit akward to demand a device that supports a particular flavor of DRM. Better just rip CDs and wait for a music service that has guts to offer MP3s. With existing high bitrate downloads that can be burned to CDs, what's the big deal?

Re:Huh?

[lucason]

90% market share my butt.

First of all it's 82%
Secondly it's only domestic share not world.
And thirdly it's not the share of MP3 players as a whole, but only the HDD based players.

I have several friends with MP3 players, but NOT ONE has an Ipod.


It's not apple's market share I'm attacking, it's their practices.

Thier stubborn bussiness plan that refuses to make anything compatible with anything else.

MOV is evil enough, you can't edit it, can't transcode it, can't even full screen view it without software by apple.

Their music players are there for one reason only, promote their site, their platform and their hardware.


Apple is just as evil as MS ever was and is. Don't confuse failure to gain market share with benevolence.

I will not buy any hardware, musicplayer, camera, DigitalVideoDevice, settopbox, anything... That does not allow free use of the music, video, pictures it produces.

So I guess apple is out.

The iPod supports WAV

[Anonymous Coward]

"Audio formats supported: AAC (16 to 320 Kbps), MP3 (32 to 320 Kbps), MP3 VBR, Audible, AIFF, Apple Lossless and WAV". http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html

as seen on everyone

[scottking]

apple could cut their advertising in half with the amount of articles and discussions their stuff generates.

At this point..

[Tracer_Bullet82]

even if a better and cheaper, player comes out, it'd still have a tough time disloging the ipod.

ipod has become the status quo now, the "cool".

How is 20GB not enough music to carry around?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Never make presumptions about how much audio someone else needs to carry around. The reasons for wanting to carry this or that amount vary significantly and can be quite complex.

Re:How is 20GB not enough music to carry around?

[jmcmunn]

I don't mean to say that a bigger storage space wouldn't be nice. But realistically 20/40/60GB should be pretty darn close.

I understand people have larger collections, perhaps hundreds of gigs. The one thing I will point out is that at a reasonable compression rate (ie near CD quality, but not uncompressed) you can carry several days worth of music around on just 20GB. I will go so far as to say that on a 40GB player, you could get 2 weeks worth of music. I know this is not "all" of some peoples' collection, but this means that you could just load up whatever you're in the mood for on any given weekend, and have plenty to choose from for the week. If you're out one day, and the Vanilla Ice CD suddenly sounds like a great idea, you can always load it up next time you're at the computer.

And if you "need" more than 40GB, yes it is going to get expensive. But for convenience, you pay a price. Just try to lug around the 300 albums you would have on the 60GB mp3 player. Not nearly as convenient. I don't presume to know everyone's needs, but at that point it is certainly more of a want than a need.

Re:How is 20GB not enough music to carry around?

[grrrl]

If you're out one day, and the Vanilla Ice CD suddenly sounds like a great idea, you can always load it up next time you're at the computer.

I like to carry my entire music collection around *precisely* for this reason - if I suddenly think "ooh! i really feel like listening to *blah*" then I want to listen to it *NOW*!! thats the whole point!

yes, this happens all the time, and i love that fact that i dont have sync with the computer 24/7 - in fact, that only time I even sync my ipod is when the battery goes dead

Re:How is 20GB not enough music to carry around?

[jmcmunn]

And if you listen to it every day, it will be dead in about 3 days! At least in my case it is. :-)

This is what I want

[Wordsmith]

I've been looking for a while but there doesn't seem to be a player like this ...

I'm envisioning a CD/MP3 Walkman-style device that can read audio off of burned DVDs. I would have imagined there would be portable DVD-Audio players capable of doing this, but I can't seem to find one.

THe closest I can find are the portable DVD players that ALSO happen to support dvd-audio and mp3. But these are far bulkier than I'm looking for, and have far shorter battery life.

I'm thinking a sub-$99 device that could double as a cd walkman, or, with a dvd in it, give me 4.7 gb of mp3s.

anyone seen anything like that?

Re:This is what I want

[zibadun]

Sony makes one http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Sep/con20030 923021241.htm I have one. Too bad it locks up and hangs all the time and cost more like $250. And the little control widget is absolutely useless for managing a DVD full of MP3s. But it's a good start :)

Re:This is what I want

[Wordsmith]

More energy than a standard cd player, sure. But I've got to figure the biggest power draw for the average portable dvd player is the screen - cut that out, and you've got a lot more energy to spare.

In addition, a typical dvd drive can grab the 5-10 mbs a given song takes up in only a few seconds - with, say, a 16MB buffer, the drive would only have to spin once every several minutes, and only very briefly. There's no reason this should take a lot of juice.

Re:This is what I want

[Wordsmith]

You say you have one? Great, because that means you can answer a quesiton I can't seem to find answered anywhere on the Web.

It seems from your answer it CAN play MP3s directly off the DVD, like a CD/MP3 player does with CDs? All the reviews I see just mention that it can become a DVD-ROM when connected to a PC. So I just wanted to confirm this.

Also, is it finicky about DVD-Rs, DVD+Rs or either RW variety?

It seems these things are going on Ebay for $100ish these days. Maybe with a firmware upgrade, this becames a realistic choice ...

Re:This is what I want

[zibadun]

Yes, it DOES play mp3's from a DVD just like it would play a CD with mp3's. I've only tried DVD+R but I believe it supports DVD-R as well.

Re:This is what I want

[Wordsmith]

Thanks for the info. I scoured the web a little and didn't see anything else about the locking, so I wonder if maybe you just got a bum unit, or if maybe the problem was corrected in a later revision.

In any case, I just got myself one off of ebay for $130, including the shipping. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it works as well as I hope. My $300 nomad (well it cost that much as purchase time) has unfortunately died on me, and I can't afford to put that much cash into something else right now.

Again, thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

iRiver's strategy: Optical Illusions?

[Altima(BoB)]

The first thing that struck me when I looked at the page, before thinking about all of the competitors lining up to fall at Apple's feet was the photo of the iRiver's MPEG-4 video jukebox.

The player itself is viewed rotated 20 degrees or so. What happens is that the entire picture, including the black background looks rotated as well. I actually had to scroll and line up the image with the top of my browser window to make sure it was straight. Needless to say, iRiver is trying to win the MP3 market by disorientating potential customers enough that they grab an iRiver while reaching for an iPod.

Re:no real competition

[eelke_klein]

Which do you mean? These two are included in part 1: Olympus MR 500i and MR100

Re:Yes

[Ohreally_factor]

Then why have "these people" spent so much effort copying Apple? =P

It's about design...

[JQuick]

Design is more than functionality. Design is more than features. It's not about interface, per se. It's not even (as so many claim) that it's about style in the sense of fashion.

It's the whole shooting match.

People who don't grok Apple, don't seem to get that.

I had a can opener. A manual can opener, that I got for about 5 bucks in the early eighties. A maid accidentally threw it out several years ago. Only when it was gone, did I realize how wonderful it was. I searched off-and-on for months trying to find a suitable replacement. I bought 5 can-openers finding each to be annoying to use.

I finally bought one that was about half as good from a mail order place in Great Britain (I live in the US). Nobody in the world makes a can opener like what I used to own. It was the right weight, and had a perfect gearing. It gripped the lid, and neatly dropped it in the trash. The balance, texure, and feel were simply superb. If I were an architect or other design geek, I would have realized how good it was long ago. As it was, only by comparison with alternatives did I realize how nice it was.

The iPod, and other great designs from Apple, exhibit this kind of property.

If you look at a checklist of features, look at particular aspects of functionality, price, or other attributes in isolation, they do not appear special. Through feel, and through use, they just seem right. As a whole, they simply strike many people as right.

You're right, gold-plated, mpeg enabled, or cheaper, a true iPod killer would have to have the "whole package".

What's tricky, is that this requires attention to the details of the design which most people are never actually aware. It will take a great deal to "kill" the iPod.

Re:It's about design...

[eobanb]

I have noticed this about many older products. Call me a luddite, but I feel that many products from the early nineties and the eighties are much more robust than their equivilants today. Older keyboards, ones that use mechanical switches, just feel plain better than newer, squishier all-plastic media-keyed rounded-space-bar messed-up-arrow-keys keyboards. Same with phones--and this goes for both cell phones and desk phones. A cordless phone that I bought a few weeks ago from VTech is just complete shit. It's hard to dial and there's a noticable delay between the time I push the button and the time it actually registers the number and generates the tone, forcing me to dial slower. Same with TVs. My 1989 Sony produces a great picture, has a nice big remote, and it's overall just very reliable and durable. I got a new Philips of the same size about two months ago, and it just isn't the same. So to apply this to the iPod, I find my 3G to be very very nice, though I'm always slightly put off by the fact that I can't feel the buttons move. The alternatives, though--like the Dell DJ--are far worse. The button layout is crap and there's just no getting used to the interface. Maybe in ten years, the same thing will happen with portable music players. Every manufacturer will feel the need to make some improvement on something that is already good enough, and they just end up messing it up. --Eoban

Re:It's about design...

[Matt_Joyce]

Tell me more about the tin opener.(can opener) Mine is shit. I want a classic retro one which will last.

Odd (scroll wheel)

[beakerMeep]

the one thing it seems they all still lack is a decent scroll wheel. Do they really think apple owns the patent on this? Scroll wheels have been on keyboard synthesizers for over a decade (certainly long before people had even heard of anything called mp3) The only thing apple did was to make it "laptop stlye" touch scroll. I am suprised no one has tried to use the more "moveing part mechanical style wheel" But maybe that is what I am missing? would it break too easily? Since when has that stopped electronics manufacturers? :)

Re:Odd (scroll wheel)

[beakerMeep]

You bring up a good point but I personally hardly ever orgranize my songs (about 11 gigs) and like to browse by name. Sometimes I don't like hierarchies because they need so many categories and so much organizing work. So to me the scroll wheel is a great function but I agree their should be multiple ways of getting to a song both hierarchical and list-style. So different people can use the way that makese sense to them.

Re:Odd (scroll wheel)

[beakerMeep]

huh right back at ya :)

is that not a minidisc player? I guess that does fit the bill to some extent but I was thinking about something larger like the ipod has but more in a design like this (look to the right of the screen)

Our Take on the MP3 Player Market

[i4u]

http://www.mp3playersrule.com/ Apple is hard to beat for this christmas season. The new small 5GB players from creative and rio will get some attentention.

Archos was the competition and might be again.

[Nomihn0]

What you are unknowingly referring to are the Archos MP3 hard drive based players. When the iPod 20 came out, I bought an Archos Jukebox 20 Recorder for exactly half the price. Admittedly, it was a tad larger than the Apple which also gets points for style, but since when did geeks begin caring about carrying around the equivalent of e-jewelry? At the time, it was a more than viable alternative. It didn't hurt that the crazies over at Rockbox Firmware (down right now) rewrote the firmware for Archos systems. You can now develop your own apps for the system as well as enjoy total customization of the interface. They've added a "video" extension, a text file reader, and multilingual support, among other things. Now, with the release of the new 20 gb Archos player, even smaller than the iPod and the around the same size as the iPod mini (2.9" x 2.3" x .7") albeit with a larger screen (2"), I am beginning to believe that a new era of iPod competition is being reigned in.

Re:Archos was the competition and might be again.

[jht]

That's sweet and all, but far from an iPod killer - or even much of a competitor, for that matter.

Geeks may love the Archos - but remember how everybody on Slashdot panned the iPod when it came out? Well, the iPod became a huge hit, and it wasn't because geeks loved it. It was because normal folks (the ones who are 99%+ of the market) saw the ads for it, saw the product, and said "I'll take one, please".

In other words, the market doesn't care if you can write software for the Archos, or load custom firmware, or change the skins. They don't give a flying fig if it uses MP3, AAC, WMA, or OGG as the standard format. They want their digital music player to work. Period. And by "work", I mean they want the sound to be good, the device to be simple and attractive, and they want the computer software that drives the library to be simple and capable. And until someone hits all those points better than Apple does, iPod will dominate the market.

Re:Archos was the competition and might be again.

[ricotest]

I'd call myself a geek but I bought an iPod for the same reason. It hits the right balance between really easy to use and having a good supply of features.

Re:Archos was the competition and might be again.

[linzeal]

They really are not all that ugly, they just did not have 10's of millions of dollars to spend on an advertising bonanza.

Re:Archos was the competition and might be again.

[Moofie]

Uh, yeah, it IS that ugly, and they didn't spend a damn nickel on UI design.

The Archos is a piece of junk. It's cheap, and if you want something cheap, then knock yourself out. But it is still a piece of junk.

Re:Yes, im sick of it too

[aristotle-dude]

I think you are confusing brand awareness with marketshare. One does not automatically translate into another.

There have been various studies that showed Apple was one of the top brand recognized brands even before the iPod came out. Doesn't everyone in the western world remember the "Think different ads" or the switch campaign? Remember the original iMac series?

People have been inundated with Apple ads and product placement in movies and television and yet it did not translate into sales. But it did increase mind share.

I'll give you and example: Sony. Everyone knows who Sony are right? Yet why didn't everyone go out and buy a Sony walkman? Why doesn't everyone have a sony DVD player/TV/Stereo? Why does Apple dominate the Mp3 market instead of Sony?

The answer is not price, not just brand recognition (Who does not know about Creative and their soundcards/gameports?) but rather delivering a product that is easy to use and offers both standard and DRM'ed formats and works on both major commercial platforms (MS and Apple). Finally, it works with the largest/most popular online music store (iTMS).

appeal

[zpok]

You'd think the iPod'd be dead and gone by now, no?

Yesterday, I saw the iPod and the mini, and a shitheap of other players. Man, that's an education. It seems you can't discuss taste, well, I happen to disagree, but sheer beautiful simplicity is hard to beat, that's for sure.

Even more fun: having a salesman show the features. Every time he says "it can do this" you go "OK, show me". No wonder the iPod is still alive and well...

Re:appeal

[Tony Hoyle]

The thing that puts me off is how damn cheap the ipods look. They use white casing (gets dirty really easily so it'll look awful after a couple of weeks) and were too cheap to use proper buttons so they used a touchpad instead (touchpads are a personal hate after getting a laptop with one.. ugh!).

Re:appeal

[zpok]

Compared to the competition, they look golden (imo)...

Cheers

Gee, I didn’t see that one coming a mile away

[BandwidthHog]

Actually, I really didn't. I expected Offtopic.

Rio Carbon

[dchamp]

Odd that none of the 4 articles mention the Rio Carbon mp3 player. I just got one a week ago, and love it. It's a 5gb HD based player, smaller than the iPod Mini with more space, and the battery lasts up to 20 hours. Plus, you don't need to use iTunes / MusicMatch type software (although you can if you want to) - I just plug in the USB 2.0 and copy files to it.

Re:Rio Carbon

[NecoX]

Can it create playlists that only have music I haven't listend to? (Smart playlists that is, playcount etc)

Re:Rio Carbon

[EchoMirage]

I just plug in the USB 2.0 and copy files to it.

Yet again, you don't get it. Plug it in and copy files to it? Most people don't want to have to work at the file system level to listen to music. iTunes lets them:

• a) import their CDs
  
• b) organize their music
  
• c) make playlists
  
• d) copy it all to the iPod with a single click
  

USB 2.0 might be neat for you, but you're posting on Slashdot. The iPod's audience (normal people) don't care, and would in fact be irritated to have to use the file system. You're member #3,582,104 of the Geeks Who Don't Understand the iPod Club.

Re:Rio Carbon

[VanillaDeath]

Just a note, there is now a Winamp plugin (53 user reviews, majority positive) to interface with the iPod. Still not the same as the player being recognized as an external USB drive and copying files to it, but this caters to the pro-Winamp non-iTunes users.

Re:Rio Carbon

[mazulauf]

How is it smaller?

From what I've seen:
Carbon - 2.5 in x 0.6 in x 3.3 in = 4.95 in^3
iPod mini - 3.6 in x 0.5 in x 2.0 in = 3.6 in^3

The Carbon is nearly 40% larger!

Re:Rio Carbon

[dchamp]

Yet again? Do I know you? Are you just grouping me in with some other group of people who are immediately wrong because they disagreed with you.

USB 2.0 is the physical interface. While I do happen to have a IEEE 1394 port on all 3 of my PC's plus my PC at work, most (i.e. 90% of computer users) don't have one, they have USB 1.x or 2.0.

As far as the file uploading interface, I believe I mentioned that you CAN use iTunes or MusicMatch with the Carbon if you choose. I, like probably a large percentage of Slashdot users (those not surrounded by a Steve Jobs Distortion Field), may prefer not to be encumbered by someone else's idea of how they should acces their device. I can use a manager like one of those, I can use Windows Explorer, or the Mac equivalent, or a cmd prompt & xcopy, or a linux bash prompt, or a shell script, or a perl script I schedule with cron, or... (insert freedom to use my device as I choose rather than how someone else thinks I should ad nasuem.)

I will guarantee you that your "single click" process involves more clicks than mine.

I used a first generation iPod for a while. There were some things I did like about it - for instance I really like the physical wheel on the 1st gen), but I like the freedom, and choices that the Rio Carbon gives me.

So, maybe it's you who doesn't get that some people just don't want to be spoon fed ideas about what it good and what is not. Some people really think different, they don't just think the different thoughts that some flashy marketing campaign put in our heads.

Re:Rio Carbon

[freeweed]

And there's a reason we can't have both work at the same time?

Feature Not Mentioned...

[nightwing2000]

I have an Archos MMJ. I never have used the video feature, the file prep is too onerous and clunky.

What it is good for, is downloading photos on vacation. You got the little gizmo to provide music on those long trips... and you can also dump your camera card onto a 20Gb hard disk, and then use the colour screen to verify the photos are really there. (Peace of mind!)

This beats taking your laptop on vacation; but nobody other than Archos really seems to value this feature. Even the new ipod requires you to buy the crappy clunky slow Belkin adapter (bigger than the ipod itself! Needs batteries!) just to dwonload a memory card into the unit.

I have an iPod killer

[Orion Blastar]

A portable CD player. I burn CDRs from the MP3s I buy and Rip the CDs I bought into MP3s so I can remix them into a new CDR.

Costs about $30USD for the portable CD Player.

It kills the iPod, because I cannot afford an iPod.

what can kill the ipod ?

[roubles]

A small box with: a) Replaceable 4-6 GB flash memory - No moving parts ... b) Replaceable and Cheap Li Battery or the box uses rechargable AA batteries and also works as a recharger. c) When connected (via USB 2.0 or Firewire) this box appears to a PC just as an external drive d) No uploading/downloading restrictions - it's just a harddrive ... isn't it ? e) Has support for every music format under the sun ... FLAC, OGG, etc ... f) A UI ripped right off the current gen ipods g) A graphic equalizer - but that would just be a nice to have.

Imagine

[jav1231]

"a $1200 24K gold-plated player" WoW!
Imagine how expensive it would be if it were Linux-based and only available in Japan!

iPod killer outfit

[bikerguy99]

Dear S-dotters, I would like to dress up as "an iPod Killer" tonite for a party - what should I look like?

My choices are:

a) a hammer.

b) a walkman.

c) an LP...

But Wait - I can dress up practically as anything and claim myself to be an iPod Killer to have same smashing success...

OK, now back to carving that pumpkin...

A review of Ogg Vorbis players, anyone?

[hughcharlesparker]

There must be loads of us who'd like some information as to which of these devices is the best ogg player. Does anyone have any experience of the oggs from these articles?

iPod already killed for me

[GCP]

Other manufacturers already killed this generation of iPods for me--admittedly a pretty tiny market. ;-)

I got the iRiver 20gig hard drive unit this time, and it gave me freedoms not offered by the iPod.

One kind of freedom was double the battery life.

Another was free use of my own files. The iPod, according to the Apple Store, had two modes, which I (not they) call the Free Mode and the Big Brother Mode. The Free Mode, they proudly proclaim, lets you use it as a portable USB drive, plugging in to any computer and doing anything you like with any of your files. Anything, that is, except actually PLAY THEM. That's disabled in Free Mode. This media player won't play any media if you loaded it in Free Mode.

If you actually want to use the media files you load, you have to use Big Brother Mode, using a special loader app that doubles as a storefront for exactly one store: Apple's own. Your device has to be registered with this app and there are all sorts of arcane rules about how many units of this can be registered with that on which computer and how to properly disable one before you can move to another, etc. Bah!

The iRiver, like most non-iPods, has one mode: Free Mode. It's just a simple portable USB drive that lets you plug into any computer you like and put any files you like anywhere you want, and it will play the ones whose file types it recognizes.

And like so many non-iPods, the iRiver plays OGGs, which is great because I write software that produces audio output and I'd like to be able to play my own output without incurring legal liabilities for my own code.

And like so many non-iPods, the iRiver has an FM tuner that I can use to listen to the news and other live broadcasts. (I only wish it had an AM tuner as well.)

And it will record live audio direct to MP3 from either its built-in microphone or off the radio.

I'm a technical guy whose idea of "cool" doesn't involve sporting hip fashion accessories. Name brand rock star touts and the chance to be considered hip don't hold a candle to useful features, as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm not interested in signing up for Apple's You Can Be a Hip Lemming, Too, But You'll Have to Do As We Say agenda. If they can produce something with superior technical features that doesn't require me to submit to their larger agenda, I'll give them another chance when I make my next purchase.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[Kesh]

If you actually want to use the media files you load, you have to use Big Brother Mode, using a special loader app that doubles as a storefront for exactly one store: Apple's own. Your device has to be registered with this app and there are all sorts of arcane rules about how many units of this can be registered with that on which computer and how to properly disable one before you can move to another, etc. Bah!

Incorrect. If you want to buy music through Apple, you have to register. Otherwise, don't. It won't affect your ability to rip, download, play or sync music with your iPod.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[jacobdp]

Another was free use of my own files. The iPod, according to the Apple Store, had two modes, which I (not they) call the Free Mode and the Big Brother Mode. The Free Mode, they proudly proclaim, lets you use it as a portable USB drive, plugging in to any computer and doing anything you like with any of your files. Anything, that is, except actually PLAY THEM. That's disabled in Free Mode. This media player won't play any media if you loaded it in Free Mode.

If you actually want to use the media files you load, you have to use Big Brother Mode, using a special loader app that doubles as a storefront for exactly one store: Apple's own. Your device has to be registered with this app and there are all sorts of arcane rules about how many units of this can be registered with that on which computer and how to properly disable one before you can move to another, etc. Bah!

Bullshit. You connect your iPod to the computer and it appears as a standard USB (or Firewire) hard drive, working seamlessly under any OS. Your music is stored in a hidden directory (standard Fat32 "hidden" directory, nothing weird there; it's named "iPod_Control"). File formats natively supported include standard MP3, standard AAC (MP4), AIFF, and WAV. The iPod also knows how to go around Apple's copy protection code, but said copy protection is NOT REQUIRED.

There's a binary database that the metadata is stored in. Apple's iTunes knows how to access this DB, as do several other programs like ephPod, GNUpod (which I personally have used without any problems whatsoever), etc.

The arcane restrictions and "registration" of which you speak apply ONLY to Apple's "iTunes Music Store", an integrated but OPTIONAL part of the iTunes program (which you don't even have to use). They have nothing to do with music that you obtained elsewhere, i.e. from CD or an MP3 that you already have on your computer. Even if you do buy music from Apple, the restrictions on how many computers you can transfer the music to do NOT apply to the iPod.

Standard USB or 1394 interface. Standard filesystem. Standard audio codecs. Widely-supported metadata handling (GNUpod, for example, is in Debian.) If you're gonna bash the iPod, at least get your facts right.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[humblecoder]

You are wrong about the iRiver only having "Free Mode" as you call it. This comes right from the iRiver website:

Q. Why can't I upload my MP3 / WMA files from my iFP player?

A. Due to copyright protection laws that apply towards our technology, media files (MP3 / WMA files) cannot be uploaded from an iFP player to a PC. All other non-media files (documents, images, etc.) can be uploaded to a PC from the iFP player.

This seems more like your "Big Brother" mode to me.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[GCP]

I didn't describe the features of the brand "iRiver", I described the features of the iRiver 20gig that I chose (because of its features).

My iRiver is just a USB hard drive in this respect. There is no limitation on my ability to copy media files onto it or off it to and from any computer.

There's only Free Mode on the one I bought.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[GCP]

If you're gonna bash the iPod, at least get your facts right.

As I said, and you quoted, it was the iPod salespeople at the Apple Store--employees of the manufacturer--who explained these two modes and their restrictions, exactly as I described.

They didn't explain how to circumvent their design, they just explained its "features", which included explicitly stating that the design prevented the playing of media files dragged onto it when using it as a USB drive.

It is good to know how to subvert their design--for me it ameliorates one of the many shortcomings of the iPod relative to what I ended up choosing--but as for who should get their facts straight, you might want to consider flaming the manufacturer who explicitly claims these restrictions and not a potential buyer who believed them.

Leave it to an Apple fan, when Apple says "it can't do that," and I write, "Apple says it can't do that," to tell ME to get my facts right.

Re:iPod already killed for me

[jasonwea]

The iFP is a flash based player. The hard disk ones are plain ol' FAT32 formatted and play anything that you randomly copy over (MP3, vorbis, RIFF WAVE, unprotected WMA).

ROFL

[FunWithHeadlines]

"The fact that sad little fucks like you are foaming at the mouth and pissing your pink little panties over Apple's astounding success in the digitial music is simply wonderful."

I provide some discussion, and I get this back. Love it. Ever heard of projection? Cuz you just demonstrated a textbook example of it.

Re:Sacrilege!

[j_sp_r]

ATRAC3 sounds very good, but you need to reencode from lossless (MP3 or OGG) to lossless, wich makes it bad for a "mp3"-player

Re:Yes, im sick of it too

[superpulpsicle]

Actually NO! I own a miniPod, it's a fact that the batteries have a shorter and shorter life span as time goes on. Apple is denying this, but there are so many forums covering this problem.

For people like me who recharge songs and batteries at will, I have put the miniPod to the ultimate test. Half a year ago, a full recharge lasts 1.5x longer than it is today. At this pace, my battery is on track to go to hell.

Not to mention the iTrip looses frequency so easily when the adapter is unplugged. For the adapter, I would blame Griffin Tech instead of Apple. Either way, MiniPod has flaws everywhere. If this thing fried, I am switching to an iPod-killer brand.

Too many killers !

[mehgul]

The market for portable music players is really becoming funny, totally bloated with offers and confusing. Actually I'm sure that having so much competition is an advantage for Apple. It has now become so difficult and time consuming to choose a music player, checking the features, the prices, choosing between solid-state or hard disk based players and whatnot, that the only clear way is to buy an iPod. With so many people around carrying it, it's definitely more reassuring to take the iPod. At least you know it works well, otherwise nobody would be using it.
If you go with something else, you can never be sure that your investment is a good one, and you will allways wonder if you haven't made the wrong choice.
The beauty of the situation is that the same psychological lock-down that leads more than 90% of computer users to go Windows is working for the iPod.

Re:Too many killers !

[Arru]

I think you are totally right!

It sure worked for me by making the decision easier. Well, I AM a mac-head but not entirely blindfolded. There was either a Mini or the smallest (15GB, no?) iPod which is a pretty easy choice compared to all makes and sizes and colors and navigation features of the "killers". And I still didn't bother with DRM because it's WMA anyway.
Any "average Jane" buying a music player will have to take into account that the DRM has to work too. Now M$ intends to make this easier with the PlaysForSure thing, too bad they've been claming "WMA" as one solid sure-shot standard for some years now, only to contradict themselves with this PFS thingie. That's not good market communication at all!

This isn't competition! Look at the players!

[Viewsonic]

Look at all four of those articles! They're listing players that have 512MB .. Or players that only support ATRAC format! Or players that cost $1200 and plated in gold?? Every single one of those listed players fails miserably in one way or another; There are NO killers listed in that entire mess.

Re:This isn't competition! Look at the players!

[Peyna]

Yeah, that was my point. =]

These have been out before the iPod! Geez.

[Viewsonic]

Go to Best Buy and look for a CD Walkman .. 90% of them all support playing MP3 files off burned CDs .. They generally run around $40 each. They've been around forever.

Re:These have been out before the iPod! Geez.

[Wordsmith]

You're missing a big part of what I said. I want something like a CD/MP3 player that can use DVDs instead of CDs. I don't want to carry around 700MB of data at a pop, I want 4.7 gigs of data per disc. THat would put the player in the same leauge storage-wise as an ipod mini or one of the several competitors, but allow me to expad through replaceable media and still use standard CDs as well.

bletch

[patonw]

The phrase "ipod killer" means absolutely nothing now. It's just marketing hype. One has to wonder when "iPod" is going to be synonymous with "digital music player"

Why don't they even mention...

[Shadow99_1]

Why don't they even mention the RCA Lyra HD and RCA Lyra A/V? The current RCA Lyra HD is as small as an ipod mini, but with a 20 GB HDD instead of the measly 4 GB of the Ipod and it's the same price! It also comes with every accessory your ever likely to need... I work at an electronics store and I sell as many of these as I do Ipods, probably more...

Yet as was the case the last several times this type of story has come out they are ignored... I'm betting no one will even read this since I didn't get to reply until I got back home today, but in case you do the Lyra is my bet for Ipod killer... If anyone ever realizes they make one that is...

It already is

[GrahamCox]

One has to wonder when "iPod" is going to be synonymous with "digital music player"
It already is, with some people. Last Christmas after I'd shown a friend my iPod he told me he'd bought his kids "iPods" for Christmas. Turns out they were fairly generic USB flash drives that could play music files. Maybe held about 32 of them. He knew iPod was an Apple thing, but was bandying the term around generically. I've heard others do the same since, mostly just non-computer type folk.

No competition?

[Infonaut]

I don't have that much faith in Apple's ability to compete.

Your argument seems a bit circular to me. Because Apple entered an existing market (remember that when the iPod was introduced many felt Apple had entered the market late) and blew away the competition there is now no competition to the iPod. But you seem to be saying that because there is no competition Apple won't be able to compete when other companies deliver products that match or exceed the iPod's capabilities.

Based on your comment about Apple being unlikely to drop the price of the iPod to $50, you seem to be thinking of price as the only criteria for success in a competitive marketplace. But price is not the only factor in this market, as Apple has shown repeatedly since the introduction of the iPod. Apple has been competing successfully against competitors that have been given rave reviews here on Slashdot, so your comment about lack of competition for the iPod rings hollow to me. It's kind of like saying until someone makes a perfect copy of the Ford Explorer and sells it for $10k less, the Ford Explorer has no competition in the SUV market.

As a side note, could we drop the whole, "Macs are more expensive than PCs" thing? Apple does not sell at the low end, but at the medium and high end their machines stack up very favorably in price to Dell and other competitors. If you want to buy a $700 computer, a PC wins hands down. But if you move upmarket, Macs often beat comparable PCs in price.

How to kill the iPod

[ljavelin]

One thing I know: a physically larger, uglier, or slightly cheaper competitor will NOT be an iPod killer.

A "killer" has to be smaller, ligher, and just as elegant and at a very competitive price point to be an iPod killer. It has to be better than the iPod in -ALL- ways. And whatever the product, it has to be better not just for a month before a new, better Apple release, but for more than six months. A "killer" must up the ante substantially.

Thats how Japanese cars killed the British car industry. They made all-around better, cheaper, and more stylish cars. In the mean time, the British made more expensive, less reliable cars that weren't updated for 7 or 8 years. As the British invested zero in their product lines, the Japanese came in and took over the market.

The question is, will Apple sit on their butts, or will they continue to push the iPod product line? My bet is that the iPod is Apple's big winner, and they're going to fight to keep competitors away.

Doesn't iPod's onboard CPU design help?

[MtViewGuy]

I remember reading that the way Apple designed the internal CPU unit for the iPod allows it to have very high quality audio output consistently when you are operating the controls of the unit.

I would suggest to Apple, however, to make some improvements to the iPod:

1. Allow users to change the battery on their own.

2. Design the next-generation iPod to be fully-compatible with future-generation high-capacity flash memory cards that can be re-written to many times.

Re:Doesn't iPod's onboard CPU design help?

[feldsteins]

1. Absolutely.

2. The iPod doesn't use flash memory, it uses a hard drive. And that hard drive can already be written to many times. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. It would be nice to move to a mechanism with no moving parts, but there's no such thing as a 20 gig flash memory card. And even if there was nobody would want to pay for a $5000 iPod. The price per meg cost of flash memory is not very cost effective. Look at all the crappy little $100 players that will only hold a couple of albums because they're flash memory-based. Nobody wants that shit.

Re:Doesn't iPod's onboard CPU design help?

[MtViewGuy]

However, I do have a couple of concerns about hard drives:

1. They tend to use a lot of power because of the fact you have to maintain the motor spinning on the hard drive.

2. Hard drives--because they involve actual mechanical movement of parts--could break down sooner or later. This especially considering how much an iPod is moved around in general.

Besides, didn't I emphasize future generation flash memory? In a few years, we'll start seeing flash memory that 1) will be quite cheap for its storage capacity, 2) will have far higher storage density than today's flash memory, and 3) can be re-written to safely just as many times as today's hard disk drives. I wouldn't be surprised that by 2010 such flash memory devices will exist.

Re:Doesn't iPod's onboard CPU design help?

[feldsteins]

Oh I agree with you, it would be better. Hopefully in the future it will be cost-effective. Although the power consumption issue is somewhat helped by using a small memory buffer. You read the next three songs into the buffer memory and then spin down the drive. It only has to spin up for a few seconds to cue up the next few songs. At least that's my understanding.

LMAO

[pedestrian crossing]

The term "IpOd killer" is a compliment so know when to be graceful, mac-fan-boy.

Wow, you sure misread me there! I -love- my iRiver iHP-120. My point was actually anti-"mac-fanboy". I hate the ipod killer thing because it's just another sign of drooling over a device that is arguably not the best of breed....

Re:LMAO

[dubiousmike]

my bad - I over reacted

Sony's first true MP3 player? Not quite.

[SenorCitizen]

From the article:

To drive sales Sony capitulated and recently claimed that they would start selling all of its future portables with MP3 capability. Unfortunately, the new Sony Sports Network Walkman doesn't have that capability.

So, they're not there yet. Which is a shame, if Sony would just release the NW-HD1(or 2) with gapless MP3 capability (it does gapless ATRAC now) and less shitty software (something like the iRiver database updater would be nice, thank you) I'd be 510 EUR poorer in a second.

This from an iPod owner.

MOD PARENT UP

[Jens_UK]

(username contains first name)