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How Important is a Well-Known CS Degree?
syynnapse asks: "I've been interested in computer science since my mother taught me how to program in QBASIC when I was eleven, and I've wanted to be a developer ever since I learned C++ in AP Computer Science while in high-school. Now I'm in my sophomore year of college studying CS at a state university that isn't particularly known for its CS program, but I'm quite happy and personally think I'm learning plenty. My father thinks otherwise, and the deadline for transferring successfully is approaching quickly. What chance do I have in the real world with a not-so-prestigious degree? Am I likely to be learning what's important? Am I looking at a series of awful jobs if I don't transfer?"
I honestly don't think it matters much. I imagine there are a few organizations that it does matter to, but I think those are few and far between.
...or equivalent experience.
The most important thing in the market today is experience. Go look on Monster or any of the other sites right now, and you'll see one phrase quite a bit -
In other words, a degree is a bonus now rather than a prerequisite if you have talent and experience. If you have no experience and no big certifications, then a degree is something (and perhaps the degree from a bigger school could help a little), but the jobs available to you in this boat are not all that appealing for the most part anyway.
The great jobs go to those with solid experience, and for those people (and the people hiring them), the degree they have is considered decoration rather than the meat of the resume.
Perhaps this is different in the development field, but I doubt it; I'm coming from the infosec side of things and I imagine things are much the same for programmers.
In short, degrees and certifications are "get you in the door"-oriented credentials; the big jobs rarely go this breed of applicant.
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
Here's my general rule on quality of college:
Unless you want to go for an ivy league type of degree (MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc.), as long as the college offers a strong program, where you go to school has ZERO effect on your life after your first job. I went to a average school (Cal State University, Chico), and got average grades. (3.0 average). I found a good starter job when I gradiuated, and started progressing on *merit* after that. Now, I am in a top design position at a huge networking company, and no one looks at my degree. When I interview people, I never look at the college, other than to verify that they got a degree.
The only caveat is if you want to get a high profile degree from a top of the line college. All the Phds I work with come from top drawer schools, and went to top schools from the bachlor stage on. It is more of a pedigree at that point, and it clearly matters.
Go to a school that has a good CS program, has energetic professors, is fun to live in (you can't beat Chico), and just do your best. Once you get a job, your accomplishments will distinguish you from the rest.
I am sure to be flamed by people who went to well known schools and swear by it, but none of the people I work with who have BS desgrees went anywhere recognizable. It is all about how you perform.
Good luck!
Todd
I have a CS degree from a state university that's not especially known for it's CS department.
I graduated in 2000 and didn't find the degree to be a hinderance at all. Granted this was at the tail of the bubble, but I was hired ahead of a Purdue and a U-Wisconsin graduate, both of which I'd consider to have far superior programs.
Why? First, because I interviewed well. I was able to interact with my future bosses and coworkers, I didn't lie on my resume, and I was eager to learn. Second, because I had relevent experience gained while I was a student. I found that working as a programmer for the campus IT department 15 hours/week and volunteering as a lead sysadmin for a student government / organization webserver to be far more relevent to the job then anything I learned in class.
Since that first job, I've found references and contacts to be the key to getting other interviews and offers. I don't feel like a state-U degree hurt me at all; college is what you make of it so learn to socialize, volunteer or take a part time job relevent to the field you want to work in, and concentrate on getting a good broad education. Take liberal arts classes and business classes, etc.
If you are learning, stay exactly where you are. You don't want to discover how horrible it is to attend class after class, year after year, and be learning nothing. I'm currently studying at a well-known university that's crashed a probe into Mars. But reputation and content are two very different things. As long as you're learning, stay where you are.
Besides, your university credentials are mainly useful in getting your first job. After that they are more interested in your previous jobs. So at worst an unknown university will just add one stepping stone on your career path.
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They make Counter-Strike Degrees? sign me up!
Remember: *Learning* is what's important here, especially when we're talking about an undergrad degree -- I went to a small state school where there were 10-20 people in my classes and I recieved a much, much better education than my peers who went to large universities. Why? Because I could walk into my professor's office and spend an hour talking to him about class material, advances in computing or the state of the industry or whatever.
In my experience, the sort of jobs you'll get with an undergrad degree tend to value understanding and skill over who your degree is from -- if you can do the work, you're their person. If you're going to a job that requires a graduate degree, well, you can go to a high-profile school for your grad work, eh?
Aside from all of that, I've learned the hard way that you should follow your instincts. Follow yours on this one and stay put.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
And money is money, but if a company doesn't hire you because your degree says Univ. of Random and not MIT, it's probably not a company you'd be hapy working for anyway. Though admittedly MIT is an exception; it WILl stand out. At least I think it would.
I know nothing
Your first job is all about who you know.
My college math prof.'s wife had a computer programming company; that's how I got my first job.
You're not going to be rich. You're just going to be a working stiff like everybody else.
Still, I'd listen to your dad. A really boring degree is a plus. It communicates to the rest of the world that you are willing to do will shit boring things, which is the value they're looking for.
Major in Business and take a lot of programming courses.
this allowed me to get a job at the best convenience store in the state. Highly recommended!
well i mean if you go to podunk community college, then year it may. but any major college, you will be fine.
i had one of the worst graduating GPA's in my CS class, but i managed to get one of the best jobs out of college. why? becuase of what i knew and what i did on my own time.
college simply teaches you how to teach yourself. if you are basing how you will do off how you do in class, then you are in for a suprise.
if you can teach yourself the new technologies and get your name out there somehow, you will be set.
but then again i am planning on getting out of the tech field in 2 years so take it for what it is worth.
WORK EXPERIENCE
Seriously, take a look at my resume (http://www.codesweep.com/about.cfm) you will see that there are plenty of interesting jobs on it (and I haven't throughly revised it in awhile, I could state more). While my college degree is a footnote at the bottom. While Cal Poly Pomona is a good school, it doesn't matter based on what's more attractive, the work or the school.
Bottom line: Find a good (even if cheap) job NOW. Failing that, grab an open source project at http://www.sourceforge.net and contribute something to get your name on the developers list. Something, anything for your resume besides a degree (whether Ivy League or State U) is paramount to a good job. If you can accomplish this, it won't matter if your degree says "WTF Coding University".
...in bed
Not as important as having some kind of experience. Have you tried looking at job requirements these days? They expect you to have written every program since the dawn of time.
Not that my CS degree from UCF is all that prestigious.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
It does matter for your first job.
Unless you know somebody, it's hard to get in to the truly cool jobs. Most companies only recruit at a relatively defined set of universities, generally where the founders and a few of the early employees came from. Which means you have to seek out companies more if you want to avoid being a coding grunt.
Once you are out for a bit, it matters far less.
Oh yeah, and a good CS degree is not about being taught. It's about being tortured into learning because your professor is really bright but can't teach. So he gives you hard tests and you have to teach stuff to yourself in order to pass. At least, that's the shared experience amongst most of the grads from top-10 CS schools that I've talked to.
Gentoo Sucks
Listen, I've worked with people who had degrees from prestigious schools, and people with degrees from state universities. I've seen little correlation between where the degree came from and the skill of the person.
If you are a moron, you will not learn at the best of universities.
If you are gifted, you will learn at the lowest of universities.
You would be FAR better served by going to a school you can afford, that you may spend your time learning rather than working to earn enough to go to school.
If you want to build up your resume, work on projects that you can point to - being a contributor to, or better still the maintainer of a well known project will look much better on your resume than a degree with no other experience.
I'd be more concerned about trying to find a good internship during your summers off - that counts for a lot more when looking for a job.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Employers weigh up the total sum of what you present in a CV. Other issues can outweigh you having going to a top school, e.g. track record. Additionally, going to a top school is no guarantee that you're a top student. However, when the employer weighs things up, a better school adds to the overall point count that leans in your favour, especially in comparison to other equivalent candidates (similar experience, different schools, for example). Even if you are "fresh paint" as a graduate job seeker: other issues count (e.g. you could come from a mid tier school, but you show that in the last 3 years, you've a passion for software that meant you contributed to multiple F/OSS projects, and you know your way around CVS, tools, unix, etc: employer will know they are getting a really capable and hands on person, not just someone who did well at exams).
Like most things in life: do your best to work at the highest level (i.e. going to the best schools, etc), but don't deprive yourself of a life in doing so.
Something I wish I had known.
Youre not in college to get a degree.
Youre in college to get a job. Which normally means you need an internship or some useful contacts for when you get to the work world.
Most good employers don't have to hire someone with out experience, people want to work for them. So get some experience soon!
If your dad's willing to pay the application fee,why not apply to a few top-tier schools? If you don't get in, you get to stay and continue enjoying yourself. If you do get in, you've already got everything you've learned already, plus you get to put the shiny new school on your resume.
The question of whether you should transfer or not is one you make AFTER you get accepted.
I would recommend you don't transfer to a slightly better school. If it's not top 5, I'd stay where you are.
I've been interested in computer science since my mother taught me how to program in QBASIC when I was eleven
No you haven't. You may have been interested in computer programming since age 11, but you didn't even know what computer science was, let alone have any interest in it.
Not that there's anything wrong with this; the world needs plumbers and electricians (and computer programmers) as much as it needs writers, mathematicians, and computer scientists. But this is one way the well-recognized undergraduate computer science distinguish themselves from the programs at the College of Upper Podunk. A good university will teach computer science, and expect you to work out how to write code on your own; a bad university will teach you how to program, and not even admit that there is anything more to learn.
Decide what you want from your years at university, and pick your university accordingly.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Asking a questions like this on slashdot is pointless.
People who have a CS degree from a well known school will say "most definitely!" so they can justify their own.
People who have a CS degree from Arkansas Community College will say "not really" because they got a job just fine with theirs.
People who have a computer-related degree from DeVry will say "nope" because they have a bottom-rung tech job.
People without a degree will say "most definitely not" because they have a job based on experience.
I'm trying to hire three developers, a project manager, and a business analyst where I work. We ignore the degrees they put down, unless it's for the pm spot where a MBA from anywhere will work. Some of the applicants have a BS in CS from places like Berkeley, but it doesn't really matter because they got it ten years ago...with an emphasis in cobol.
Having a degree on your resume will just help it get through the automated resume grabbing filters big companies use when fielding hundreds of applicants.
Oh, and I don't have a degree.
You may see "or equivalent experience", but that's not most employers first choice. In most cases the degree does have significant weight, and given two people who are more or less equal, the guy with paper will win. Likewise, between the guy with a second tier state university CS degree will lose to the guy who went to a big name public university or well know private university.
Sorry, but it's a tough market out there, and if you ever want to be more than just a coder making half decent monkey money, you better go for the well known school.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I have virtually no formal CS training, other than a fortran class in college. I'm pretty much self-taught, working with computers since I was 8 in some capacity or another. My formal background is in Biology Education, though I quickly discovered that teaching high school biology wasn't for me.
What led me to my current position was a lot of persistance and being able to demonstrate that I was a smart, capable person. I started as an entry level programmer (mostly hired to teach the occasional Access class), caught the whole "web application" wave, and ended up in a well-paying position some eight years later.
The trick in many cases is just getting in the door. For that, being able to say you're certified with a particular skill or have a degree is good enough. Once you're hired, the key is to show that you really know your stuff and can make your customers happy.
I have staffed up quite a few R & D departments in my years and I can honestly say that a degree only means something on the 1st job you get when you have no experience. After the 1st job its all the relevant experience sections on the resume that gets them an interview. I am usually more interested in the actual interview and the answers to the technical questions than I am with the resume itself. In fact the best programmers I have met either didn't graduate, or didn't take software engineering is school at all. I am a Human Machine Interface and Design major I have been programming, designing UI's, and managing programmers of over 10 years now. I taught myself to program on my C64 as a kid in the 80's, and read an Amiga book on C in 1985. I have been programming daily ever since, and will usually hire a motivated self taught guy like myself over a 4 year degree if the interview shows him to be more knowledgeable.
Go ahead and finish your degree where you are. Then get your Masters at a more well known school.
I spent less than 4k per year going to U-Mass Lowell instead of a 30k/ year Northeastern or such.
I bought a brand new subaru impreza WRX when I got out of school with the money I saved. I have no debt from college.
It took me a year to get a job, but I blame that on my poor planning (I didn't have an internship) and crappy market (got out of school 2002). Now I've been working in the Boston area as a software engineer writing web-based apps for about a year.
Keys to a good job are usually location (Boston, great; Boise, eh), interview / personal skills, and prior experience. No one ever really asks about college so much, as long as they know I did my time.
As far as what you get from the quality of professors, I find that varies. There were great professors and horrible ones. What I did learn is that if you put in the extra effort, you'll get way more out of it.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
I heard the section on crate-bashing at MIT proves to be quite handy in the real world. Maybe that's what you're talking about.
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
If you have a rich relative offering to pay, and you can go to MIT without going into debt, then yeah, of course you should transfer. But if, like most of us, you're going to pay for college, you should choose the best accredited undergraduate education that will leave you financially stable (read: debt-free) afterward.
You'll hear lots of people telling you about the value of name schools, the need for "networking" and other such hoo-hah. And often, they'll try to convince you that it's worth $30,000 in debt to get a top-tier undergraduate education. Don't buy it.
Remember -- at the undergraduate level, most schools will teach you the same things (oftentimes, from the same books). So why pay out the nose for an education that can be obtained for a fraction of the cost of a top-tier university?
Save your money, keep yourself out of debt, and you'll have more options later on. That's doubly important today, where Punjab's willingness to work for 30 cents an hour will almost invariably trump an expensive diploma....
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
I suppose that depends on how much of an ass you want to be. You could either say "I have a degree in Computer Science/Engineering, so I know x, y, and z. I worked hard because I was interested in the material. Computer Science is a passion for me -- I would enjoy any job related to [programming|software engineering|etc]" or you could say "Don't even ask what I know, it should be obvious that I am an excellent employee because I chose to get a degree from [Cornell|Berkelely|etc]. I am interested in the highest-paying job you have -- I deserve it because I went to a school with a good reputation."
Note that the above is a blatant stereotype to make a point -- obviously the sentiments expressed are not exemplified by the majority of CS students anywhere.
Are you going to school in order to create a career for yourself that you enjoy and are passionate about? Are you going to school to impress friends, relatives, or potential employers? It cannot be said enough that the school's reputation has little bearing on the competency and attitude of the students. Employers are looking more for a positive attitude, appropriate skills, and a good investment for their company.
I know some folks who are currently in their undergraduate CS study and say things like "I could teach these classes! The only reason I am doing this at all is because the 'stupid' rules say I have to get a bachelor's degree before I get that Ph.D." Meanwhile, they are getting C's in those "easy" classes because their goal is the piece of paper and prestige (ego) rather than pursuing an activity or career they can be passionate about.
My best professors (in CS and otherwise) were those that began their careers in 'industry' and had a passion for engineering or CS and had excellent communication skills before moving into teaching/academia. Real-world experience is so much more useful than 'book-smarts' most of the time. (That's not to say that these professors weren't book-smart, too!)
Indeed, it is most definitely what you know that counts.
Since you're going to receive more than your fair share of personal anecdotes, I'll throw my own story into the mix.
Short version: I've got an A.S. in Computer-Aided Drafting from the local community college, but due to luck for sure, skill I hope, and good management, I'm a senior systems analyst for a company that writes tax software -- the most steady programming gig possible. Go figure.
I was planning for an Electrical Engineering degree, but I had near-zero study skills. I spent a semester at Okla State and quite utterly failed to distinguish myself.
After a summer delivering pizza, I got a job through Manpower -- proofreading phone books. But instead of just marking errors, I figured out the patterns, and got hired.
Next was the big lucky break: Texas Instruments, flush with Cold War defense contracts, had a program where they put folks through school to become CAD draftsmen. I applied and got in. Got paid to go to school for a semester, then worked full time with a full-time school schedule. By the time I got my A.S. in Computer-Aided Drafting, I was the software support person for the drafting group, writing Lisp extensions for AutoCAD.
Cold war ends. Layoffs begin. I bail out for American Airlines... start out as 2nd level support, taking calls from Australia and Japan in the evenings, the Middle East at midnight, and Europe in the wee hours. Transferred around, picked up VB, ended up leading a small project. Bailed out in the mid-90s and just missed the downturns.
Got the current job when it was a family-owned company with a tradition of "get it done" over "show me your diploma". The owner also didn't like to lose talent, so they kept up with the dot-com boom wages. Owner sold to a conglomerate, but clueful management remained in place.
So here I am, a high-level programmer, with an A.S. in Drafting from a community college. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
I vote with staying where you are, if you're happy there.
I was in a similar situation; my school wasn't terribly noted for engineering, so after 2 years my mom convinced me to transfer to Virginia Tech. The biggest reason is that I was looking for a co-op job and no one would hire me from the previous university.
VT was very different from my old school. It did seem like the program was a little better academically, and the school definitely had a much better intern/co-op department which made it much easier to find internships. Also, I think the big name on the resume does help a lot in your first job or two; this may be more important now with the terrible job market than it was when I first got out of school in '98.
However, I paid a terrible price for the change. First, it was much more expensive. My family wasn't exactly rich, so while I was doing ok at my first school, where I paid in-state tuition, costs went up greatly at VT, leading me to build up a large debt in student loans. Secondly, and possibly more importantly, I never managed to build a network of friends at VT like I had, and lost, at my first school. Being a not-terribly-outgoing person, I had a very hard time finding any new friends at the new school; I found that I believe that most relationships are made in one's freshman year, when you're living on campus and everyone is new. After everyone's been there a few years and has a circle of friends, it's not so easy to break in. And maybe it's just me, but the engineering students at Virginia Tech seemed to be a bunch of snobs compared to the students at my old school. Not having many friends in college isn't bad just because of the social aspect, but those relationships can also be rewarding to your career: look how many companies were started by people who were friends in college.
So, in summary, if you're happy where you are, don't screw it up. Personally, I don't believe in making changes to anything unless there's something wrong, or there's something else that's obviously better in sight. I don't see any posts here so far in favor of big-name schools (unless maybe you have your sights set on politics).
Very few people, employers or otherwise, care about where you got your degree. All they care about is that you have it. There are times when an MIT or Harvard degree will carry more weight, but they're the exception, not the rule.
Doubt it? Try this little experiment. Your post implies that you're somewhere in your teens, which probably means that you've had at least a few different doctors (pediatrician, dentist, and GP, at the least). Do you know where any of them got their degrees? Do you care? Probably not... all you care about is that they did get an education. And these are the people whom you entrust with your health, your well-being, and potentially even your life. For most of the rest of society, it's the same way.
Wherever you choose to study, don't forget to learn java (yes, it's necessary where i live - even the basics), the MVC framework (multitier programming), UML notation, RUP, programming "good practices", etc.
If you can find a college where they have this material, well done! 50% of programming is having a good design. That's what makes the difference between a senior software developer and a... (despective)programmer.
A "programmer" can plug bits and pieces of code, drag some icons and have a visual basic program. A developer knows how to abstract data, ENGINEER applications, frameworks, and make a very good job, saving time and money.
This will give you a huge advantage over your competitors, when you start looking for jobs.
Also, do NOT be conformed with what you learn on school! If there are additional courses at college, say, a new programming language, or a new framework from X or Y company, do NOT - repeat, do _NOT_ ignore them just because they're not required for your grades!
This mistake costed me 2 long years of unemployment (and the subsequent stress and stomach aches) after graduating.
I dare say that an 11 year old just finding out about QBASIC may indeed become interested in how those lines of code become translated into whatever shows up on the screen, and THAT, indeed, is Computer Science. Programming is a tool. Just because a person deems to use a wrench doesn't mean he isn't a mechanical engineer.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I went to a school that was not known for its CS program and it didn't seem to matter to anyone I interviewed with. What did matter was my grades. With a 3.0 average I was getting offers 30-40% below what the 4.0 students were.
Otherwise it depends on what you plan to do with the degree. If you want to work in the MIT AI Lab, then you better go to a name program and get perfect grades. If you will be happy being a developer somewhere writing financial software, then I don't think it matters.
I also think that showing people the practical things you did while you were in college, not just class work, matters. I wrote a FORTH compiler (while, interpreter, really) from scratch and I think that impressed people that I could apply all the theory I had learned.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
While making an impression is important, having a "big name" degree is not as cracked up as it is made to be. Others here have suggested getting real experience in a co-op program. That is probably the most important thing to look for in a school. Schools with good partnerships can provide you with real-world experience which will open more doors.
Almost as important however is the which path within the IT world do you want to pursue. If you're looking to do more than code then finding a school with an IT department within a school of business might be helpful. If you want to specialize in graphics then look for a school with a good program involving fine arts or engineering.
So don't get downhearted about being at a so-called "second-tier" school if that school offers unique or interesting paths to follow.
I went to a small state school and my first job was at a Fortune 50 company! I've transformed that into a very good upper management job at a well-known international company in less than 10 years.
Of course we torture people, we need the information --Gen. Pinochet
Lemme give you a hint: NO schools hand out PhD's like toilet paper, excluding internet scams.
I have a 6-year Chemistry degree from a CSU and received a FAR better education than 95% of the undergrads at UCLA and UCI. This is primarily because PhD's teach even the 100-level courses at CSU, rather than some random graduate student who may be 1-2 pages ahead of the class. It also has a lot to do with the fact that any research work you do at a UC will consist mostly of "washing dishes" for graduate students. I published 3 papers before I ever got my B.S. degree.
So maybe people shouldn't be so quick to judge students by the name of their Uni...
"All that glitters is not gold"
Having a degree from a big-name school will help you in two cases: getting your first job, and if an employer ever has to choose between you and an equally-qualified and equally-likeable applicant with a degree from a less-prestigious school. The first hurdle is one you only have to go over once and which you will get over one way or another, and the second is not terribly likely to happen.
I don't have a degree, and I'm the most senior and highly paid developer at my company. I won't tell you that not having a degree hasn't hurt me -- it has, mostly by making it much harder for me to get that first "real" job, and obviously, there are some companies that won't consider me. But I also do a lot of the hiring around here, and I can tell you that I don't pay too much attention to where new hires got their degree; I pay a lot of attention to prior work experience, code samples, references, and demeanor during interviews. I've worked with some people with degrees from prestigious schools who were terrible programmers and horrible coworkers, and I've worked with great programmers who were fabulous to get along with who had two-year degrees from local community colleges.
If I were you, I'd stay put. Of course, if your dad is going to foot the bill for a fancy school, you might consider it. Otherwise, the massive burden of student loans for that sort of thing might be a lot more trouble than it's worth.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
I think there are a couple advantages to a top-flight program.
First, you'd be in the company of much brighter, more driven, higher-achieving students. If you're really into computer stuff, then this could be fun, motivating, and extremely educational-- classes and professors aside.
Second, stronger programs are more likely to focus on ideas beyond mere software development: the theory of computation, algorithm design, and mathematics. Now, if you just want to build mundane user interfaces, this would all pretty much be a waste of your time. However, if you're interested in doing work that involves some level of challenge beyond just structuring the software itself and getting algorithms out of a book, then this stuff can be really useful.
You could graduate from your current school, work for a while, and-- if you decide you need deeper knowledge-- go get a master's or PhD somewhere else.
I don't ordinarily favor "me too" posts, but this one says almost exactly what I would have: Stay in your small college, ace your Bachelor's degree, and if you want a big-name degree, get it in grad school. And I'm not just saying this to vindicate myself, I'm telling you to avoid mistakes I made. :-)
I also believe it's the student, not the school. The really top-flight CS schools (e.g., Berkeley, CMU, Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Cornell) can help give you a boost, but mostly you're going to have to teach yourself anyway. If you're top-notch material yourself, you should concentrate on kicking butt at whatever school is most affordable for you and graduate debt-free.
Quickly skimming through previous discussion, I see people have been talking about experience, which is definitely more important than a degree I would say.
That said, a bachelors is becoming the minimum an employer expects of a potential employee, aside from interns. If you really want to succeed or are interested in computer science, you should look into going to grad school and getting at least a Masters degree; that way you can get your CS bachelors degree wherever and then you can go to a more prestigious grad school.
I am in the process of completing my MBA in Technology Management at the University of Phoenix, and I can assure you it is far from a diploma mill. The curriculum is rigorous, maybe even more so than local competing colleges. The school's stigma is attributed to the adult learning model and its methods of advertising. The school is a business, after all. My wife also teaches undergraduate Nursing for UOP. As faculty, she too can attest to the legitimacy of the school.
I got my degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz before it was well known for engineering. They had a very good program and I had no problem getting a job after graduating. My ex roommate, on the other hand, went to a local California state college. As I helped him and saw the curriculum, I was surprised at how backwards it was compared to what I had to do. In many ways, even though I got my degree ten years ago, UCSC was far more advanced than Cal State Hayward. While many courses were the same, I thought CSH's courses were a joke compared to what I had to do. In many classes, my roommate had to hand in printouts of code or turn it in on floppy disks. Back in 1989 at UCSC, all of our code was submitted on the network and automated scripts performed the initial validation, i.e. compiling and running test data on it. We never handed in code printouts either, after all, that's what the network was for.
Helping my roommate with his homework further reinforced this view. Much of his homework for equivalent courses was much easier. Of course, when I took it we didn't have google or the other Internet resources available either.
Not all colleges are created equal.
-Aaron
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I went to a smaller university, not state-college level, but not huge either; 10K students. I've talked to the people who interview here where I work, and they put hardly any stock into WHERE you went to college. Experience and GPA get you past the HR department, and being able to act like you know what you're talking about gets you in with the people who'll make the final recommendations.
Every once in a while you'll hit some nutjob who went to a big university and was in a frat or something, and he'll try to give preference to an alumni, but most people are buying a person, not a cookie cut with some specific cutter.
I would agree completely, especially if you are looking for an academic career. CS School prestige only matters if you are want to work at a CS school. And even then, it is only the grad school work that matters.
Six score characters.
Brevity being wit's soul
I have enough space.
In practice, most jobs'll look for certifications and maybe a degree as an afterthought. They're not interested in your actual knowledge, they're only interested in not being held accountable if you don't work out.
Lastly, you're going to get rotten jobs, whatever education and certifications you have. Most jobs are rotten. Especially in IT, where most companies are plain stupid. Many IT specialists and generalists stick with getting a well-paid job, rather than a useful and/or productive one. There are exceptions (eg: my current employer, where a number of key people read Slashdot) but for the most part, if you want an intelligent job, you need to work for yourself.
Oh, and stay out of the military, if you possibly can, even if you sacrifice Government jobs, loans, etc. IT professionals are snobby in their own way and have far stronger ties with intellectual pursuits than grunt work (with the exception of hauling servers and running cables, though you'll notice most IT staff "let" other people do such stuff, especially in public). Also, whenever there's a call-up of reserves (as at present), businesses lose out big-time. You can't get useful work from a person fighting in another continent. Nobody is going to hire you, if they think you'll cost them more than you'll make for them.
Also, many intellectuals and many higher-end IT professionals tend to be left-of-center, non-conformist and don't follow rules (without a major internal struggle). Exactly the opposite of what most militaristic and Government-oriented organizations want. In IT, you're there to get the job done, and if the rule book gets in the way, too bad. In something like the military or the civil service, you're there to follow the rules to the letter, even if that means nothing gets done.
My advice: Get the degree (and if you can get sponsored for a Masters, even better) but don't go for a PhD. Even if (and it's a big if) you get paid more for it, the cost of the degree and the cost of not earning for those extra years will often make it pointless.
After you've got your degree, get a certification. The program itself is likely to be pretty useless, but the scrap of paper at the end of it is worth a lot of money and improved job opportunities.
Don't get a student loan, unless you absolutely have to. Sponsorship is generally a better bet, doesn't charge interest, and the demands aren't quite so obnoxious. Businesses looking for new graduates and looking to expand in the medium-term will very likely be willing to consider some sort of deal. (eg: internship over the summers, plus a guarantee that they get first-pick on whether to hire you, after you graduate, in exchange for contributing towards the costs.)
A more dangerous path - but it's worked for some - is to ignore the whole degree/certification approach. Become famous or infamous for something so spectacular that even the most dim-witted of Human Resource people will know you're in the news, even if they don't know why. Few can pull this kind of an approach off, and several of those have spent years or decades in prison (eg: Kevin Mitnick) but those who succeed often get the Really Big Money. Those who fail will never move beyond minimum-wage jobs and will eventually die in obscurity and poverty. It's about the same kind of risk as staking not only your entire life's earnings but all potential future earnings as well on the lottery.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I have no college degree, and no high school diploma. Someone in my situation at this point in time with no work experience would have a hard time finding someone to give them a chance. There are a couple of things that either I did or that were circumstantial at the time that made it easier for me.
1. "Work Experience" - This is in quotes, because most people would not consider what I put down on my resume as work experience as work experience. I put down various side jobs that I had done in high school such as adminning various small web hosting provider boxes and shell hosts for free, or creating programming projects for myself such as ODS. Why admin someone else's boxes for free? I did it because I enjoyed it. Little did I know that it would help me a couple of years down the line to land my first job (at IBM of all places - full time job at age 16.)
2. It was a very good time to find jobs in the technology fields. This was 1999. That alone should be enough to give you an idea.
Once I had IBM on my resume (in addition to my other less accepted "Work Experience"), getting the second job (which paid twice as much) was a lot easier. It still took a little bit of searching, but it worked out. And now, I have 4 "real" jobs that I can put down on my resume. In fact, finding this last one took less than 1 week from the day I put my resume out, to the day I received an offer that I liked. That was in March of this year.
To sum up. In my experience, work experience is king. I think all a degree helps people in our field with (unless they are doing research or teaching) is to get their first, and maybe second jobs. If you can manage to snag that first job by yourself, and you have the knowledge and drive to do the job they give you, then everything else will fall into place. After the second or third job is when it really starts getting easier.
Regards,
-JD-
In my opinion it depends entirely upon the type of job you're looking for. The computer field is rather messily divided between techies and intellectuals. It's a bit of an open system, with people migrating in both directions, and considerable overlap, which disguises the fact there there are, in fact, two camps.
Degree or no, fine school or barely adequate, you're going to start life as a techie. Welcome to the help desk, cubeville, or low-end development. Your geek-badge and a love of white-collar slavery is your passport to this world. And thus begins the journey. . .
You will gain experience, confidence and skill, and begin to be promoted. You will (hopefully) gain a reputation in your chosen fields, and garner the laurals of a job well done. You begin to plan a career path. Somewhere around Sr. programmer (substitute DBA, Network Admin. or Sys Admin as appropriate) something unexpected happens.
You see, at the upper end of "applied technical knowlege" there is a fork in the upward path. The broad road leads to middle management, and God help the poor souls who venture there. The narrow path leads to "think tank" positions.
It's true, most large companies have one or more senior geeks doing funded research, planning strategy, or generally dispensing wisdom on demand. They really do exist, but you don't see them because they live in the nice office building in corporate headquarters not in the programming shack.
Here's the important bit. These guys are hired for their brains, and to join the club you need to have the sort of broad-based understanding the almost inevitably comes from a top-notch college education. A B.S. gets a distainful sniff, but the doors gape wide for the ivy-league Ph.D's, and may open for an M.S from a solid school with a bit of persistance.
The self-taught crowd will howl and cry that it's not fair. They can program as well or better than their pedigreed peers, they have probably built an open-source terminal emulator, and they've labored in the same trenches, side by side for years. However, in reality, very few people teach themselves calculus, computer theory, materials science, economics (and don't forget ettiquite) with the level of rigor demanded by these positions. This is where the four, six or eight years of studying that "useless theory" becomes useful, even necessary.
I'm a self-taught techie with several certifications, facing this division. I'm 40 years old, and a Sr. DBA for a large firm, making a good salary -- end of the techie line. I've been courted for managment positions, which I don't want. I've got three B.S. and one M.S. degrees in various sciences, all from good schools, but no C.S. degree.
Over the past two years I've taken several C.S. classes from a good school - algorithm analysis, advanced data structures, automata, etc. I'll probably get an M.S in a few years, and maybe a Ph.D. after that, but more importantly, I'm learning all the little details that differentiate a computer scientist from a competent techie. There IS a differance, after all.
We have a winner. Where you go to school matters! The better the school you go to the better chance you have of getting a good entry-level job in your field which, in turn, jump-starts your career IF, and ONLY IF, you take advantage of this opportunity. Where you go to school is NOT a permit to rest on your laurels for the rest of your life. (Unless, of course, you dropped out of Harvard and started a small software company in Redmond, WA...or whereeverthehellmicrosoft was founded.)
Also, college is not a vocational school. College is an evironment where people hone their skills at critical thinking and reasoning (and socializing, but that's a different discussion.) You choose your vehicle to do this by picking a major that INTERESTS you. I know quite a few English and History majors that were pulling in $100,000+ per year two years out of college as analysts for Wall Street firms.
Where did I go? The College of William and Mary.
What did I major in? Chemistry.
What do I do now? Not Chemistry. I'm in IT and do project management for large, global infrastructure projects.
While where you went to school won't necessarily get you the job, it will improve your chances of getting your resume looked at.
Granted, I never really leveraged where I went to school, even for my first job.
--Mike
I got my degree in CS from a state university. The most important thing I did for my career during my !4 years in school was sign up for the internship program. I interviewed at 4 large code-mill-type insurance companies and 1 state agency. I ended up getting a job at the state agency and thinking that I wasn't a good enough programmer to get a "cool" web programming job at Aetna or ING. For the most part that was true as is the case with many recent CS grads. CS doesn't make you an out of the box coder. Once I learned the technology I needed to solve business problems, I was on my way to my current job as a statistical analyst/programmer. I solve problems and CS was important for me because I did't have an innate ability to do this otherwise. Some would argue, and quite validly, that experience is key and I have to agree with them. So, stay where you are, land an internship or co-op or volunteer to write some apps for a non-profit, and you will be on your way. The average cs/programmer/code monkey changes jobs so many times that it is important to note that it is the last one that you have that will matter, not the first. Put yourself in a position to choose that last one and make it something you love to do and are compensated well for. I think you are well on your way right now.
--Always, I mean never..., No I mean always check your references.--
UC Berkeley completely changed my career and by extension, my life.
When I got there, it was a trial by fire and I practically flunked out. Since then it's been 12 years, 5 startups (3 IPOs), and many product releases. Virtually all of these "hot" startup opportunities came through connections originally made through Cal contacts, either in the CS department or business school (where I did a minor).
By comparison, you can look at my friends from undergrad and compare our careers-- hands down, I've fared the best:
- the Berkeley name opens lots of doors: I can cold-call companies and they will take me seriously.
- concepts, keywords and communication styles I learned at Berkeley are widely respected as The Standard. For example, I recently joined google as a manager (i.e. survived their insane, 6-round interview process), something that would have been impossible without Cal, even with industry experience.
- the Berkeley network is incredible: see above, but interestingly, though Berkeley I'm friends with Turing award winners, CEOs, CTOs, VCs, VPs, etc. -- but also hundreds of people who do the real work, including key product and engineering managers for tivo, palm, google, microsoft, amazon, ebay, etc.
Of other top CS schools, I see this same effect for MIT, Stanford and CMU, with the others important for specific fields, but not the same impact.
Obviously, your school is not a career panacea: I have friends who went to cal (and finished their PhDs) who struggled after school. Some other key elements: write useful working code, learn how to be a good team member, learn systems architecture (OSs, databases, networking, programming) and keep reading. It helps to avoid being egotistical or jerky-- remember that you need people more than they need you!
Well, they can. I took one class that think got me a job out of college - software engineering. I got my CS degree in '93, so the environment may have been a little different, but not that much. I attended an Illinois university that was better known for its party atmosphere instead of academics, but the CS program was pretty good. I took a class in software engineering my senior year. There was ZERO coding. It was learning about requirements, budgets, planning, testing, mockups, etc. We worked in teams on projects, which was a whole new experience. One thing about going to a bigger university is the job fairs. Mine didn't have a very big one, but I had friends who went to U of I in Champaign. I took off on a weekend and drove up there and took about 100 resumes. I gave them all out. I got several interviews out of it, and it was how I got my job. I ended up in the Chicago area for Motorola. When I interviewed there, I brought my senior project for the software engineering class. While talking to the first interviewer, I showed it to her. She said "show this to every other person you talk to today". I went through 6 other people, and I found out later that that project impressed them. They said everyone else just had programming experience, but I had at least some experience with the software development lifecycle. I didn't realize how important that was at the time, but man have I learned it since. I am not currently in programming, I made the choice to go into software testing instead. But my software development background has served me well. My bottom line would be - don't just learn programming! Programmers are a dime a dozen. Learn about the software development lifecycle and what goes into it. In most companies, programming is just a small part of software development.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
It seems like most of my classmates I've kept in touch with are software engineers, yet none of us majored in computer science. We have a philosopher, linguist, biologist and geologist among us. The dot.com boom, bust, and outsourcing fad seemed to pass us by.
I took some "trendy" courses in the business school (Course XV) and core theory courses (Course VI-1). The former long became obsolete, while the latter are still useful.
However, once that door is opened, the rest is up to you. That is, 1) your work experience, 2) the rate you adapt and learn, and 3) your attitude and personality.
I am in a Fortune 500 internet company (market cap = US$50B) and everything I learned about technology (SQL, OLAP, datawarehousing) I learned on the job.
Caveat: I am not a programmer and my degree is a BS in chemisty and Asian Studies.
Unless your degree is from India Institute of Technology, of course.
Give up on the CS degree. Study economics, go to business school, and become a manager. Then hire lots of Indians cheap.
Suggestion: Don't go to college for a degree
We have been brought up in an environment where people have dictated to us throughout our lives that having a college degree will ensure your success.
This could not be further from the truth.
Now don't get me wrong, college will be able to teach you incredible things, in a fantastic environment with qualified staff and surroundings. But always remember that is why you are there, not for a piece of paper stating you "graduated".
What businesses look for:
I noticed in a post above that companies might want to hire you because you are more "flexible", this is garbage. Go look at job postings, take 10 random ones. They will tend to be pretty stinking specific. Look at it from their perspective: If they are going to spend money, it will usually be because of a direct need. "Hey, we need some Perl stuff done." "Hey, we need someone than can rewrite older programs into .NET." "Hey, we are in need of a person that can take a given WinSrv/SQL set-up and move it to Linux/Oracle." You'll quite rarely see a "Hey, we need somebody that can do stuff (we're not really sure, just a lot of stuff)"
What is becoming in demand:
Certifications! Again, look at those random job postings. Time after time after time you will continue to see more and more people caring less and less about college and more about certifications/experience. Look at it from their perspective: Take a guy who graduated with a MS in computer science, what does that tell you about his knowledge? Nothing. Take another guy, this one with CompTIA A+, LPI Level II, and a MCSE. What does that tell you about his knowledge? A lot.
But why?
It's one thing to have an accredited 4 year college put their stamp of approval on you. It's quite another to have the actual manufacturers approval. Sure my college could say: "yeah, this dude knows what's going on.", or I could be interviewing for a position in a Microsoft shop, and have Microsoft say: "This person has the knowledge to deploy and manage OUR software in a corporate setting."Always remember: A company is going to be spending money on someone, they want to be guaranteed that someone knows what they are doing. And as the progression of IT has made it, a degree doesn't match the power of certification.
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you." --leonstryker
Good for you, seriously. I don't know much about CS and CS hiring practices, so I cannot really speak definitively. However, I am taking the stance that, in General, it does matter where you go (and what you do there) especially when you're looking for your first job. Once you are in your career and gaining experience, where you went to school doesn't matter as much UNTIL you advance into the management realm. Once there, the company can make bs arbitrary decisions based on your background to look better. See my post above regarding the CFO at the biotech startup.
At no point will I ever fault someone for taking the initiative to go to college. It is a HUGE financial undertaking even with financial aid. I tell people in college to look at it as an investment in their futures. Get out of it what you can, learn both material and how to think and then apply it.
One of my co-workers is very bright and a very hard worker. However, due to reasons beyond his control, he was unable to attend college. He knows he is now at a disadvantage in the industry we're in.
--Mike
I have an undergrad degree from UCI and a graduate degree from UCLA, both in chemistry. All lower division chemistry courses are taught by Ph.D.-holding faculty. Only discussion sections are led by graduate students.
Professor Rowland taught freshman chemistry up to his winning the Nobel Prize, and may still do so. I heard Professor Luiz Alvarez taught freshman physics at UC Berkeley after his prize.
The clearance system sounds logical. It is not. It is completely arbitrary. -- John Bolton
While the source of the degree (and sometimes the degree itself) likely matters little, a college with an excellent CS program is more likely to prepare you and teach you useful things you didn't know you needed/wanted to know.
Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
I do not have a degree.
I have been working without interruption for 15 years now.
And I have interviewed and be part of interview processes in many occassions.
The reaity is that the context is king. In some places they could not care less about your university degree or the school you come from.
In other places they did actively filter people from well known universities. In yet other places it was the other way around.
The only thing in common is that people had to demonstrate they knew their field, and the only case in which many places got really punctillious was in assesing skills (ridiculously complicated tests).
Very rarely you have two guys that, once properly assesed, score equally (if you are assesing the candidates properly that is, if you are just fooling around, then yes, paper may win, but I have seen in several occasions managers that lived to regret such carelessness).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Just a little side note: I went to a university known for having a good business and data processing curriculum. I took my first job writing in an obscure language for outdated mainframes. After about 2 years, I thought I'd look for a job doing what I really wanted to do, and the conversations with recruiters usually went like this:
Me: I'd like to start working as a game developer/engineer/etc...
Recruiter: Well, I see you've got many skills listed on your resume. But, what experience do you have as a developer/engineer/etc...?
Me: (sheepishly) Well, none - but it's something I'd really like to do. I've done some work on my own and read up on the subject quite a bit.
Recruiter: Well, that's nice and all, but my clients are going to want someone with solid experience... Would you be willing to take a job writing in COBOL instead?
You see, my mistake was twofold:
The perception problem is very real. If you stay at a lackluster school, you will neither get a good education, nor have a good career - at least not without a great deal of effort. Having a few years in an given technology tends to pigeon-hole your career prospects, and you might find yourself unable to find a position doing what you want to do if you don't get in with a good company right after graduation.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Computer Science is a very young discipline compared to other engineering disciplines. This explains why there are so many computer scientists / software engineers who do not have a degree, did not go to college and yet have highly successful careers. This is characteristic(sp?) of young disciplines. Ignore it.
CS itself is getting older, more mature. People are starting to understand that just knowing how to hack doesn't quite cut it (always). In short, going to a college and getting a degree in CS never hurts (as opposed to not getting one, not opposed to getting one in some other engineering field).
If we agree to the above - ie we must get a degree in CS or EE or math or something related, we question where we must get it from. College degrees are not pieces of paper that open the door to getting a fat job. This is one of the perks for sure, but there are others. They open the door to contributing something for the betterment of humanity (by doing original research), they open up your mind by forcing you to interact with peers who are often better than you. No matter what your job, you will fall into a mental rut as compared to school. A school is only as good as the students that study there. The students are what makes the MITs and Stanfords of today - not the professors. If the professors were getting sub-par graduate students to work with or sub-par peers they'd leave.
This is why it is absolutely essential to try to go to the best possible school you can go to. You will get exposed to things that you never were exposed to. You will learn new things from both professors and students alike. You will take part in activities that will challenge your mind in multiple dimensions - something quite unparalleled in the "real" world.
And you never know - you may want to do research for life. You may want to go on for a higher degree. In all these cases, the better school always wins. You can get by with going to a lower school - in fact you can "get by" with not going to school at all. But our purpose in life is not to just "get by". The whole point is to do something great - something that you can point your finger to 50 yrs down the line and say "I did that and changed they way people think / do something". Always strive for the best.
That's little dick syndrome. The "real worlders" always think that experience is the only teacher. I'm not a huge fan of the non-degree folks I've worked with. Some are very good. The majority have wacked out egos because they don't have a concept of the field as a whole, just their little piece, which makes them overestimate their knowledge and ability. The ego thing is also because of the inferiority complex they have because they didn't go to school. So they sit around and poo-poo school and all that book learning that the kids have, slap themselves on the back for not going that dead end route.
I've also worked with fresh faced grads that couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. Or have the first job ego: "I produced something that actually works, I'm awesome!" And anyone who uses goto in anything but the most brain dead of situations gets a swift kick in the junk. I don't give a shit who the person is, someone is going to have to read that code, goto generally doesn't help.
This is just a fascinating discussion.
... And that was it. Never actually took a computer programming class. I think the only conscious choice involved was deciding that the girls in the English Lit department were better looking then.... well, then the guys in the Comp Sci department. I did end up getting a BS, so I wasn't math-phobic or anything, just never happened.
... And then I went to law school. Hah. That's what fascinated me so much about this discussion. The rules for lawyers are completely different. No so much where you went to college, but where you went to law school is the single most deciding factor for many firms. Obviously, this is a gross simplification, but as a general principle -- I think I'm right-on. (Just FYI -- I went to a school consistently ranked in the high teens, low 20's..... Good, but not great.) And most of the people in the really good law schools went to really good undergraduate institutions.
/., but I digress.)
I'm one of those coulda-been techies. I did all the requisitely nerdy things in high school -- captain of my chess team, played M:TG, built my own computer, taught myself HTML, completely socially inept.....
Unlike programming, practical experience is not particularly valued (with the exception of court house lawyers, for whom experience and bringing home the bacon is the only goal.) If you want to work for an established law firm, a good school with top grades is a necessity. Of course, luck plays a role, and there isn't come cabal sitting in judgment over the 2nd tier / B / C students.... But I think this is true, especially when starting out. (Again, FYI -- I went into government myself. Much less emphasis on schools.... There's just a lot less asshol-ism among government attorneys then among many (especially the larger) law firms.)
The comparisons are striking. Only one state today even allows people without a legal degree from a certified school to even sit for the bar exam. Historical examples notwithstanding (for instance, many Supreme Court justices -- in addition to Abraham Lincoln were self taught), the idea of a lawyer not having at least an undergraduate and graduate degree is laughable. And the very fact that whether going to a big-name institution is even seriously debatable made my jaw drop. (Of course, there's also the possibility that all the big name comp sci grads are doing something other then reading
So, yes, this post does have a point. And it's this: our young friend here may -- shocking, I know -- decide he wants to do something else with his life other then program or design software. Maybe he'll find his great passion playing the violin or studying history or -- god forbid -- as a member of the bar. He needs to think not only about the profession that he -- as a sophomore -- envisions for himself, but also what other doors may be opened for him at other schools. All in all -- the very fact he asked the question indicates he's doing his homework. I'm sure someone this thorough and seemingly conscientious will thrive in a variety of academic settings. But not every field has the same laid back attitude towards educational background. Should he want to pursue an advanced degree in the humanities, or go into academia, or any number of other fields that don't share the laudable emphasis on merit that CS has, he may want to consider other educational options.
And one last little tidbit -- as much as I joke -- I love the legal profession. Law school was one of the best and most challenging times of my life and my job now is rewarding and fun. Sure, there may be more asshol-ism among the legal community then the community at large, but eh, I just don't hang out with those types. And the breadth of jobs I'd be considered for (outside the traditional legal roles) is astounding. Unlike a comp sci grad, lawyers are presumed to have the competence to practice in any legal field -- and usual
The better the school you go to the better chance you have of getting a good entry-level job in your field which, in turn, jump-starts your career...
This is only very slightly true but for all the wrong reasons. The types of people who are easily impressed tend to be shitty employers in the long run. They care more about politics than substance. The only other times it is true is if you walk the alumni network, but, then, the expectations are pretty high. They are doing you a favor by giving you a job and the social pressure is awkward at least. Unless you really think you can be buddy-buddy with the guy that gave you your job, then it's best to go somewhere else.
If you can't make it in the alumni network, then having a prestigious name on your diploma is actually a drag. People who go to "lesser" schools think you are an elitist, morons think you are some sort of god. It is just a lot better to be "average," because all your co-workers will be on a level playing field.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
What have we learned from the real world but that the truth between two options is the grey compromise?
Experience will trump education on a job-by-job interview, but consider what happened in the post-dot com boom, you NEEDED a CS degree. They wouldn't even consider you otherwise, unless you had a direct inside connection.
In times of plenty and demand for workers, education pales to the immediate need for experience, because they can always hire someone else if you don't fully pan out.
In times of lean, when companies need good people to fill their positions, they can be pickier, and you'll be interviewing against people with equivalent experience, and they will be more thorough with the evaluation. That's when education comes into play.
As a CS major (bachelor's only, not an ivory-tower PhD) who has dealt with many a non-CS IT worker, the difference in ability between those who took Computer Architecture, Algoritms, and Operating Systems versus those who just learned C or C++ on the job or in a night class is huge. Unfortunately, it's difficult to communicate on a resume, but on an actual ability standpoint, it will resonate, and that will build you a local network of people that respect you, and that will get you future jobs.
Hey, I'm just your average shit and piss factory.
[My comments are relative to my 25 years of experience in server development -- almost all at startup companies that grew into larger companies through various combinations of success and acquisition. I've toggled between hiring manager and developer about 50/50. If you're looking at IT or Applications Programming opportunities or want to work "eight-five" at a big company, my observations may be irrelevant. There are, of course, also exceptions to all the "rules" below - but in my experience they are fairly rare.]
BOTTOM LINE: GO TO THE BEST CS SCHOOL YOU CAN SUCCEED AT - THE SCHOOL MAY SET THE TONE FOR THE REMAINDER OF YOUR CAREER.
I've reviewed quite a few (probably nearly 10K) developer resumes over the years - most of which were prescreened by recruiters to my specific requirements. Even with the "prescreening", a resume probably gets an average of one minute of attention unless something particularly turns me off (in which case, it gets less than one minute) or particularly excites me (in which case it gets more time and may eventually end up in a hire). The more years of experience a candidate has, the less relevant the source and major of the degree is (although, if someone under about 50 doesn't have a B.Sc., preferably in CS or math, that's a red flag because such degrees were commonplace by 1980). But, for candidates with less than three or four years of experience, both the source and major of the degree is a very significant factor.
I've also been involved in a fair amount of on-campus recruiting over the years and the reality is that GPA and school are VERY important. From a "lesser" school (say, without the intent of offense, most Cal State schools) anything much less than a 4.0 "in major", 3.7 overall, and a preference for "hard" classes (i.e., CS classes to build credits, not Psych 101A) usually gets the resume routed to the "no on-site interview" pile - this is because it is relatively easy to get a 4.0 in-major from such a school unless one is lazy or not very sharp (neither of which is promising in a candidate for a job!). From a "better" school (say, without the intent of offense, UC Berkeley), seeing one or two A-'s or B+'s for a CS class is not completely off-putting (a B- or lower is cause for substantial investigation however). Even with prescreening of transcripts and resumes, from a lesser school I am happy if one on-campus interview out of 15 advance to an offer of an on-site interview. On the other hand, I expect as many as four or five from a top school to advance to an offer of an on-site interview.
One problem I have found with candidates from "lesser" schools who are at the top of their class is that usually they haven't been challenged by peers, coursework, and professors as much as they would have been at "better" schools. This "large fish in small pond" syndrome is a problem for a couple of reasons. First, they often think they are better than they are (after all, they are better than most everyone around them - but the people around them turn out not to be very good) and don't interview well due to this disconnect. Second, they often just haven't been exposed to some of the trickier concepts so in a 45 minute interview, it's hard to find a common ground from which to probe their intellect. This is sad because I'm sure some of these candidates would have been more qualified if they had been challenged more -- but perhaps could not afford to attend a better school or screwed up their verbal SAT scores and didn't qualify for admission to a better school.
Although one can rationalize "I will stay at a lesser school and get the experience I need at the first couple of jobs and then move into better jobs", I don't think this works well in practice. It's been my experience that the first job or two often sets the tone for the remainder of developers' careers. By the time you're "ready" for the better job, all the other people competing for the job already have three or four years of better experience so you're still beh
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Having been in industry for over 20 years and now teaching in the University system take what I say within those regards. As a hiring authority on major projects (of dozens or hundreds of people) if I set a degree as a requirement I never saw a resume that didn't have the appropriate degree. Unless one of my engineers brought me some persons resume directly. When balancing the schools for major positions (6 figures and up) I might call the school directly and talk to the major professors and see what they remembered (usually these are the references anyways). For lower level positions who has the time?
I worked in corporate IT at two major telecoms, and two major consulting companies. At every job I've had the prior service military were a significant back bone of the profit making contingent. They required less management, met deadlines, and didn't whine about company decisions. Oh, I'm prior military myself (USMC).
When balancing two CS programs as an undergraduate you should be more interested in whether they are ABET accredited utilizing the latest curriculum standards than what name is plastered on the sign. What is your goal? Do you want to work in industry or be involved in research? If you want to be involved in research find the prestigious research university and ingratiate yourself with the faculty. If you are interested in doing 4-years and opting for industry get the paper and run for the door. When I'm hiring people the paper gets you the interview, your skills get you past my minions, and your ability to communicate with me during the interview gets me to sign the will hire paperwork.
--- Location Unknown
Whatever you do, stay in school.
Do you want to be successful like John Smith? How about Robert Jimmyjoiner? Sam Francisco? Well you better stay in school. You'll go nowhere fast without a degree because that piece of paper validates you and determines your worth as a human being.
If you drop out you are destined to become a small time failure, keeping company with such delinquents as Paul Allen, Larry Ellison, John D. Rockefeller, Thomas Edison and some other guys you've never heard of.
Don't be Bill Gates- stay in school.
Disclaimer: I'm a current UCI student (philosophy, of all things).
I think perhaps you are too quick to judge schools you might not know so much about (or perhaps you do, but then I don't know where your information comes from). I have friends at both UCs and Calstates and I'd have to say it doesn't matter which school you go to, you will find PhD's teaching the courses just about everywhere, and only things like discussion sections that are led by a grad student (I believe most if not all are those on their way to a PhD).
So far at UCI, the only bad TA I had was in the one CS class I took, and that was only because I was pages ahead of the rest of the class and I could tell that, while he knew his focus area, his general CS knowledge (how to compile Java on anything besides Windows, etc) wasn't as good as mine. In the rest of the classes, TAs are an exceptional resource, are very intelligent, and their accessibility can often make them better than the professor for various reasons.
Friends of mine at CSUN (all CS) are having trouble because their professors aren't very clear sometimes and it seems to be harder to get in touch with them (in comparison to my personal experience). I also know their education dept lacks quite a bit, since I work for LAUSD and I can compare those who got their degree at a Pepperdine vs CSUN.
What does this mean? Probably nothing. I figure everyone makes their own experience. If you're smart, you'll go far anywhere. If you make the effort, you can have a lot of contact with professors. The research you do at any university depends on your advisor professor and what he's interested in. I think going to an MIT vs a Calstate all depends on the school that most appealed to you. I know people who could have gone to MIT and went to other schools (less known) and the reverse.. people who managed to fake their way into the better schools only to do horribly because they were never good students.
I apologize for the long rant, however I don't believe saying your education was "FAR better" had as much to do with the school as it did with your personal studies.
And maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge students by the name of their university.
Sig!
Being a "seasoned" college junior, enough experience to know all the back ways around campus, but smart enough to know i still don't know jack sh!t, I'm going to venture my opinion here: If you're hired because of your talent/experience with a language, but you ain't got a degree to show that you did more than high school English, you're most likely going to be hired for a programming job and not much more. Maybe a project leader eventually.
I will agree that there are people who never did more than algebra who are some of the best leaders/thinkers out there, and there are others who have the degrees but aren't worth the oxygen they use hourly.
But there is no denying that most of the people who make it farther than the duties of a programmer/techie/etc are the ones with the social, management, and problem solving skills developed in those 8-10 semesters of schooling (in my case probably closer to 11 or 12 semesters...)
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The answer is, as always, to take a holistic view. Graduates with no experience often have just enough knowledge to make them dangerous and belligerent. Long-time developers with no formal training sometimes end up egotistical, inflexible, and lacking the skills necessary to move from a development mindset to an engineering mindset. What you need is a degreed professional with experience.
And you may want to read goto considered harmful; you'll find out that, in many cases, it's not.
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net