Wireless Shopping Carts Run Windows CE

An anonymous reader writes "Fujitsu has introduced a self-service retail scanner that could make long checkout lines a relic of the past. The U-Scan Shopper is a ruggedized XScale-based wireless computer with an integral bar code scanner, running Windows CE 4.2, and mounted on a shopping cart. The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store."

Comments

Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[IO ERROR]

From the article:

Self-scanning in aisle -- costumers can scan and bag items while shopping to get a running basket total and eliminate waiting time at checkout

This sounds like a recipe for shoplifting to me.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Gunsmithy]

It does, doesn't it? Maybe they'd have a weighing system in that to combat it: i.e. you put a pound of dutch loaf in the cart. That detects a pound, you scan it, and that pound is now accounted for. Dock with a POS terminal that checks your weight after scanning vs. weight when passing through, do a checksum...and if everything meets a standard deviation or two, it goes through. 'course, that's just my guess.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[MBCook]

That's why you need RFID.

With an RFID chip in each item, you just pass the basket under a scanner, and your total would show up. No hiding items at all (I agree that absue would be too easy with the system in the article). You pay and walk out the door.

The other problem with the system is bagging. When do things get bagged? Do you just dump everything lose in the back of your car, or do you bag as you shop?

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

RFID on food would add a gazillion different useful conveniences. The problem is, food has the thinnest profit margins of any industry. The tags will need to be incredibly cheap. 1/20th of a penny could be a make-or-break difference.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[seanismdotcom]

I really don't think shoplifting is a problem. It comes down to peoples morals. There is nothing stopping you from walking out of a food store with an item besides your concious and possibly an associate which is rare at large grocery store.

Or having those items under your shopping cart that you tell the checker about even though you could've gotten away with 'stealing' it.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoplifting will happen regardless. Albertson's stores in my area have been doing the same thing, but with handheld devices instead of something integrated into the cart. They also have self checkout, and I once scanned all my groceries at the self checkout machine, then just walked by the employee who oversees them and left without paying. When I got home I realized I didn't have a receipt, which led me to realize that I hadn't payed, so I went back to scan them all again and pay.

So you may have a point. I never accidently stole $50 worth of groceries with a human checker.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[andreyw]

Btw thats how Jewel self-checkout terminals work. You need to have the product weighing down on the surface for it to scan properly.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[dzarn]

The other problem with the system is bagging. When do things get bagged?

You do realize both the article AND THE PARENT POST said Self-scanning in aisle -- costumers can scan and bag items while shopping, right? I mean, missing the article I can understand, but the post you just read?

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[MBCook]

True. But every food manufacturer could raise their prices 1 cent. That wouldn't make much of a difference to anyone.

But for the consumer, prices would drop because stores wouldn't need to keep a bunch of baggers and checkout people around. That's lower overhead, so they wouldn't need their prices as high for the same proffit. The stores would be willing to pay that extra cent (or five) from every food manufacturer to be able to get the RFID product so they could reap the benefit of not needing all those personel.

It should work out.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[hatrisc]

Although, I look forward to the speedy checkout RFID would provide, I'd hate to see grocery clerks and baggers out of jobs. These jobs keep lots of people off the streets and with some money in their pockets, to feed their family or buy beer on weekends. The job market in the U.S. is down to begin with and will only get worse. We need a national system where drivers aren't allowed to pump their own gas, and perhaps aren't allowed to bag their own groceries. Let some starving man do that!

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

With an RFID chip in each item, you just pass the basket under a scanner, and your total would show up.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to buy produce with RFID chip in them. I like my carrots silicon- and copper-free.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[grolschie]

Grow your own. It's the best way. I get up nice and early to tend me turnips before reading /. each day. ;-)

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[RicktheBrick]

I see the shopper not even allowed near the merchandise as there will be computer monitors which will allow a shopper to go through a virtual store. The real store will be rows of selfs very close together and very tall. Items will be retrieved by platform with a mechanical arm that will be capable of lifting the merchandise and placing it on the platform. Alot of people will do their shopping at home via the internet. They will than drive up to the store where they will be directed to the proper place to pick up their purchases. They will than pay for them and place them in their car and drive off without ever even entering the store.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

You must live in Oregon......

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[mankey wanker]

You know, there really are members of the any community for whom that kind of job is a necessity. They really can't do much more than that. Do they now deserve to starve and die because automation is making the jobs they are able to obtain obsolete?

I am not saying that these people are the best and brightest, I am saying they EXIST. They have rights and should be treated with fairness and dignity.

For those of you about to jump all over my shit with capitalist dogma, libertarian claptrap, and pointless mantras about how the "freedom to succeed also contains within it the freedom to fail" - try obtaining a soul before replying.

This is the death of mom and pop type operations all over again, except at a much more personal level - at the level of the individual unable to compete with a machine and automation.

Where is John Henry when we need him to do some machine ass whooping? Yeah, I know he died in the attempt. The point of the story was to make one empathize with someone of amazing abilities that was still less valuable than a machine.

And yet, is the success of the automated machine worth the death of even one person?

You really have to ask yourselves this question because it is at the heart of what we as techs do - we program and engineer tools of automation for our corporate masters in what is the moral equivalent of what Oppenheimer did with the atomic bomb. Oppenheimer was bold enough to have no illusions as to what he unleashed onto the unsuspecting world, he said: "I am become death." But if he had no illusions as to what he was doing, shouldn't he have stopped himself on moral grounds?

We techs have become economic death for many. And all of it so our corporate masters can better regulate us, better force us to consume, and better shorten our life spans unless we can afford very levels of conspicuous consumption.

You are neither at the top of the economic pyramid, nor at the bottom of it. You are placed well into the middle of it so as to forever tease you with the riches at the top - all while you are statistically most likely to never change your status in life at all. This has the consequence of making you think of things as if you were at the top - one of the masters yourself - because maybe, just maybe someday you will have arrived at your goal and finally reach the top. So you align yourselves with the goals of the masters while rejecting the economic and political realities of the under-classes from which you originate.

That's not smart. You are living in a dreamland of false hopes.

These tools of automation are in many ways paid for in blood.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

All hail Ned Ludd!!

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Breakfast Pants]

Pretty funny troll. I think we also need a national system where instead of refridgerators you have a central freezer in your town that produces and you have a huge ice chest. State employees walk from the freezer to the various houses of the town bringing ice to their ice chests. Each home also has a bum who turns a big ice cream machine type apparatus that acts as a freezer. Salt is mined by other employees with no use of technology for these "freezers" and then walked, no matter what the geographical distance to the mine, to the various houses. If unemployment still continues to rise we can just have the government order people to dig holes and fill them up (this is done in essense anyway every time domestic workers get legislation passed that works against free trade... why not flesh out the rediculousness of it all).

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[mankey wanker]

That's all you've got? Wow, what a terrifically cogent argument!

When technology puts power into the hands of individuals I don't see a problem; when it takes away their means of making even a meager living, then I see a problem.

Hey, I do it too - march passed all those wacky homeless people in the big cities. They can't all just be crazy and lazy. How about those kids in the projects? After they stab you to death for your ATM and CCs, maybe you will have wished you had a different political outlook. This cheap labor shit has blowback. Or didn't you realize that obvious fact?

As members of a CIVILIZED SOCIETY we have to take care of one another and make sure we establish a culture that takes care of its own. Where's the revolution in my words - except where I won't pretend it's someone else's job, or the responsibility of the local church? That's a plan that assures nothing will ever be accomplished. I think it is my responsibility. I think it is your responsibility. It is a political imperative. We build civilization together

You know, I have no children and still think its okay that some of my money goes to educate the adults of tomorrow.

Yeah, call me crazy...or a Luddite.

You just want yours and fuck everybody else. Nice.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[mankey wanker]

One example, that's all I ask. One example of a true free trade culture anywhere on earth.

Oh right, there are none!

Next...?

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[Anonymous Coward]

It's self scanning in the aisle, not self checkout in the aisle. You will still need to bag and pay for your items at the self checkout kiosk where the items are weighted as part of an auditing process.

Re:Vulnerability in Fujitsu Wireless Shopping Cart

[arivanov]

I would not be quite so sure about it. Most stores which use it allow it only for customers with store account cards. They already have your shopping history and they have already done a credit check on you. So if something is astray they are likely to pick it up very fast.

Um... so?

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

All the grocery stores here in Columbia, SC have had systems like this for at least a year and a half... and being south carolina, surely we're well behind the curve.

Re:Um... so?

[slagdogg]

Really? No such luck in Seattle, WA ... or Redmond, WA for that matter :)

We do have valet parking at one grocery store though ... something tells me SC does *not* have that.

Re:Um... so?

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

hmm... I left town just before the Publix opened up in the old confederate printing press downtown, and the parking situation aroud there can only be described as dire... I wouldn't bee too suprised if they did. But as I said, no firsthand experience, this is just speculation.

Also, I should've RTFA-title... I was thinking about the self-checkout stations near the front of the store, not a scan-as-you-go cart.

Re:Um... so?

[jambarama]

They've had this more or less at every smiths and albertsons for years.

Re:Um... so?

[batkiwi]

Are you talking about the self checkout lines, or actual checkout devices in the shopping carts as this article is talking about?

I've seen the self checkouts everywhere, but never ones that are wireless and on the cart, letting you check out AS you shop.

Re:Um... so?

[Grishnakh]

Not necessarily. I've driven in lots of places around the USA, and Alabama of all places is the only one where I've seen kilometer marking signs on the interstates. They had mile markers in addition, but the fact they had kilometer markings floored me.

Re:Um... so?

[barryman_5000]

Is columbia, sc the grocery technological center? I've been using the self-scanners here for awhile and I thought it was normal too.

Re:Um... so?

[kthnx]

In the UK we had a system like not (not windows based, but a scanner none the less) about 10 or 12 years ago in supermarkets... It's all died out now, so better luck with getting it to work there.

Re:Um... so?

[r_j_prahad]

I've driven in lots of places around the USA, and Alabama of all places is the only one where I've seen kilometer marking signs on the interstates.

Interstate I-19 South from Tucson to Nogales, Arizona (a distance of 71 miles) is also signed in metric. It's been that way since sometime in the 1970's. Recently some of the metric signage has been discarded as part of a reconstruction project at the intersection of I-10 and I-19.

I-19 is also one of the few interstates that doesn't cross a state border.

Re:Um... so?

[nightgeometry]

Just thought I'd say - it isn't completely dead in the UK. My local Waitrose has a self scanning thing.

Personally though... I like going through the tills, lots of different little reasons, but i just like it - helps that the local shop seems to only emply hot checkout staff :)

Re:Um... so?

[jacksonj04]

Sainsbury's actually started introducing self-checkouts in larger stores about a year ago, our local one has had them for 6 or 7 months.

You scan, then bag, and it weighs things as you bag them. If the weight doesn't match then you can't keep scanning, and there's always an 'operator' to do things like keep an eye on people and verify people are 18 when buying alcohol.

The difference is instead of needing 4 people to run 4 checkouts, you need 1 person to run the same 4 and it's more convenient for the customer who doesn't want to queue.

Re:Um... so?

[Ender_Stonebender]

This is in-cart, not the self-checkout kiosks that live next to the regular cashiers.

And in St. Petersburg, FL they haven't even had self-checkout. Albertson's hasn't got them yet. Hell, the Publix down here (the most expensive grocery store in the area) still doesn't have them. The local K-Mart did, but they took them out after about two weeks. Apparently it confused all the old people.

--Ender

Re:Um... so?

[aav]

I find this hard to believe. Did you read the article ? Didn't you just confuse them with self-checkouts, which have, indeed, been available for a while now ?

There's a difference: the scanner is mounted on the shopping cart, so you scan the products as you put them in the cart.

That contrasts with the self-checkouts I believe you're talking about, which are regular checkout points, where you take your cart and scan the products yourself, while being supervised by some employee (the gain being that one employee can supervise 4-8 scanners).

Technically speaking, self-checkouts don't really help with reducing the length of the lines, because regular people scan slower than experienced employees. However, they do reduce the number of point of sale employees, which saves money to the store.

Also, they are a blessing for the average male who has to pick up tampons for his girlfriend ;)

Re:Um... so?

[mshurpik]

Yeah, see I can groove to that. Knowing the prices in the aisle and having a running total is obviously a convenience. However, if they expect me to put money into the shopping cart and tell it to Have a Nice Day! on the way out the store, then they won't be getting much money from me.

The self-checkouts in Home Depot are similarly laughable, with one chaperone just kind of standing there aimlessly, not really looking or doing anything. Are these companies just admitting that they'll take whatever they can get? Because the idea that robots are going to enforce shoplifting laws is just about the scariest 1984-style scenario you can think of for a retail operation.

Re:Um... so?

[Rendus]

Invalid item in the bagging area. Please remove invalid item...

*Removes item*

Please return item to the bagging area.

*Returns item*

Invalid item in the bagging area...

*Gets up and wanders off to the real checkers, since the 'operator' is too busy filing their nails.*

Re:Um... so?

[superflippy]

Really? I live in Columbia and have never seen this, not in Bi-Lo, Publix, Kroger, Piggly Wiggly or Earth Fare. What grocery stores are you shopping at?

Re:Um... so?

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

The big problem I've had with those automated checkouts, is when you have a big item (25# bag of dogfood, pallet of bottled water, etc) which doesn't normally get bagged, the stupid machine still expects the user to place it in the bagging area. So the user ends up going through these silly motions to please the machine, I don't know if they're all like that, but the ones I've seen could really use some improvement.

Re:Um... so?

[Ambient Sheep]

Yup, Waitrose in the UK have had this for ages.

Re:Um... so?

[martian265]

I-19 has the signage in metric and standard since it actually enters Mexico. Mexico of course uses the metric system. I've heard that some of the highways leading into Canada are the same way (I can't confirm that since I've never been that far north).

Re:Um... so?

[Ben Hutchings]

Safeway in the UK (which I think is now independent of the US chain) started trialling handheld scanners nearly 10 years ago, if I remember correctly. My local store was one of the first they tried it in.

The only downside is...

[ravenspear]

When a buffer overflow occurs a trap door on the underside of the cart is triggered and all your groceries spill out onto the floor.

Re:The only downside is...

[Quantum Fizz]

Or it would give a new take on those Total cereal commercials.

You'll have to eat 12093749283745 bowls of Raisin Bran to get all the nutrition of one bowl of Total.

Re:The only downside is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unrelated to the idea of a crashing shopping cart, but I'm reminded of a little stunt many university friends and I pulled at one of our local supermarkets, Coles.

about a year ago I went through the checkouts and when a pack of jellybeans was scanned, the register bluescreened. I sniggered a little, but hey - I'm accepting - sometimes these things crash. It took the register guy a few minutes to get the attention of a supervisor ("It's gone blue again!") to reset the register, call up the previous parts of my shopping, and get things going again.

Supervisor re-scanned the jellybeans, and it bluescreened again. Ha!. Next time around he just entered a generic confectionary code and I went on my way. That was kinda cool, and getting back to dorms we had a laugh about it, and decided to all head down at some random busy time and try the same again.

It was cool! eight of us all went through different registers at about the same time, all bluescreening one after another with packets of Candy Lane Jellybeans.

DDoSing a supermarket, it was cool!

Re:The only downside is...

[Delta2.0]

Or you just end up paying a few thousand to some swis account with your credit card

Re:The only downside is...

[nacturation]

What else should happen when the cart has a core dump?

Re:The only downside is...

[ralinx]

a story like that is bound to impress the ladies ;)

Re:The only downside is...

[supercowpowers]

I admit, I work at a grocery store (hey it's only until I'm learned enough to get a "real" job)

Our registers run viPOS on Windows 2000.

I was checking this lady out, happily scanning along, when all of a sudden...it froze. It accepted none of the various harmless keystrokes I tried, the damn thing was just stuck showing the same thing as its only sign of life.

I thought to myself, "OK, these things fuck up like this sometimes, I've never seen it this bad, but I'm sure it's fixable."

I called over the customer service rep, told her what happened...

She said, "Did you try jiggling the handle on the check thing?"
Myself, "I'm sorry?"
She, "Here..."
She Jiggles the wire connecting the check reader to the terminal, it promptly gets back on its feet and I proceed with the transaction...

Who would have thought...

At least now I know what to do.

(And it had to have happened before for her to know about it...)

Can I get my items for free...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I get my items for free if there's a BSOD? :D

Express Lane - 15 Items Only

[hndrcks]

Absolutely no Beowulf Clusters.

Re:Express Lane - 15 Items Only

[game kid]

Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of those carts--oh wait, they're Windows CE. At least PocketPC or XP embedded, if it must be Windows, but please, we've had teh CE for quite a while, there's got to be something above that for portables and contraptions like these by now...right?

Re:Express Lane - 15 Items Only

[Koiu Lpoi]

Yeah, they tried that in Soviet Russia, lines were terrible. Or some amuzing juxtaposition of the aformentioned situation ;).

Re:Express Lane - 15 Items Only

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck off. not a good troll. go kill yourself.

Re:Express Lane - 15 Items Only

[gnuman99]

No no no. First you have to install Linux on it. Just go with the shopping cart to the bathroom and do your dirty deed.

When you have all shopping carts converted to Linux, then when the shopping carts come together to their "resting" area (where idle > 90%), then they use their wireless network to create a Beowulf Cluster to crunch the 43rd Mersenne Prime.

Self scanning is a crock

[Peter Cooper]

Most of the stores I've been in with these 'self scan' systems are a nightmare. I swear, they check at least quarter of the people who use the scanning system, and if you happen not to be white, male, and dressed in business attire, well your chances of getting checked out just shot up. When you have to get all your groceries checked out even 1 in 10 times, it defeats the convenience of self scanning.

Re:Self scanning is a crock

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm; I don't remember signing away any rights when I used the self-checkout system.

If they think I've stolen something they are welcome to accuse me of shoplifting or go away.

I would probably even give them a third option; buy the bags back by refunding my CC.

Re:Self scanning is a crock

[Anonymous Coward]

well i dunno about the double-checking based on race or appearance.. self-scanning was introduced at h-e-b grocery stores in the san antonio/austin market, and the white folk in business suits are WAY outnumbered in south texas.. so they'd be checking 9 of every 10 that use self-scanners there...

for a store's regular customers, it can be a time saver, especially during busy store hours...

would you rather have those pesky radio tags on everything and they just charge your credit card when you roll the cart out the door?

Re:Self scanning is a crock

[Anonymous Coward]

if you happen not to be white, male, and dressed in business attire, well your chances of getting checked out just shot up

Do you have any data to support that, or are you just being prejudiced?

Re:Self scanning is a crock

[mi]

When you have to get all your groceries checked out even 1 in 10 times, it defeats the convenience of self scanning.

Actually, it does not -- if there is no wait for the self-scan, but a few people wait to the regular registers.

But even you should admit, that even purple rag-dressed females benefit from not having to wait for those white business-attired males. Those guys zoom through the self-scan lines, shortening the wait for the others.

Re:Self scanning is a crock

[NonSequor]

At the Kroger I go to they don't check anyone, ever. Sometimes they ask for a signature for my credit card payment, but 90% of the time they don't even ask me for that.

THis particular system uses a scale that you put the items you've scanned on. If the weight of the items on the scale doesn't equal the weight of the items you've scanned it flags your station and won't let you scan anything else until you fix it.

It handles produce too so I guess for that and other variable weight items they must have data for the minimum and maximum acceptable weights.

It seems to work pretty well.

Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

beowolf clusters
does it run linux
microsoft sucks
i should go kill myself,
do the world a favour.

Good idea but

[CastrTroy]

When are they actually going to come up with something that will save you money at the grocery store. Maybe something like fridges that are closed, so they don't have to cool the entire store. Even the beer stores in Ontario have gone this way, cooling the entire store. Result. Warmer, more expensive beer.

Re:Good idea but

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually open freezers are surprisingly efficient. Hot air rises. The cold freezer air mostly stays put.

Re:Good idea but

[jm92956n]

When are they actually going to come up with something that will save you money at the grocery store.

It's not about saving you money, it's about saving them money.

I work part-time at a grocery store (and 9 credits short of a masters', too), and I know how unreliable cashiers are. They call out sick. A lot. Or they simply don't show up. And then there's the whole thing about having to provide benefits--these are all expenses, and the food industry (outside of 5 star restaurants) is notoriously low margin. They have to save money where they can.

To further compound the situation, the grocery industry is facing increased competition from WalMart, everyone's "favorite" discount store. I'm in an area that's, for now at least, immune to behometh, but other areas aren't.

Perhaps you remember the prolonged grocery store workers' strike that occurred last year in California? It was because they simply can't afford to have that many workers on the books. The UPC revolutionized the industry and enormously increased the efficiency of the average cashier. Here's a technology that'll produce even more savings (for the store, of course). Even if a few less-than desirable people use it as an opportunity to walk out of the store with unpaid food, they'll still probably make out in the end.

Oh, and the reason for the open coolers? The stores have to be air-conditioned anyway (heat does evil things to food), so it doesn't make much sense to put doors on any of the cases except the frozen products, especially when lazy people object to having to put forth the effort required to continuously open doors.

Re:Good idea but

[Ced_Ex]

Oh, and the reason for the open coolers? The stores have to be air-conditioned anyway (heat does evil things to food), so it doesn't make much sense to put doors on any of the cases except the frozen products, especially when lazy people object to having to put forth the effort required to continuously open doors.

So what happens when they need to heat the store? Say, like in winter? Seems to be counter productive to heat and cool a store.

Re:Good idea but

[modecx]

Oh, and the reason for the open coolers? The stores have to be air-conditioned anyway (heat does evil things to food), so it doesn't make much sense to put doors on any of the cases except the frozen products, especially when lazy people object to having to put forth the effort required to continuously open doors.

I think some of the freezers I've seen exhaust their waste heat into the ambient air in the store... With all the friction and whatnot, there would be quite a bit of net heat-energy being pumped into the rest of the store! I'm going to have to pay attention to this in my future grocery-store journeys. Chances are I'm just full of shit, because otherwise it's a tremendous oversight.

I dunno, maybe these fridges exhaust their waste heat outside--if so it makes good sense. Two birds with one stone as they say. I'd certianly hope this was taken into consideration by an engineer somewhere. It wouldn't suprise me, though, because my particular Safeway is pretty old.

Re:Good idea but

[bluGill]

Have you done a HVAC evaluation of a store? Don't jump to conclusions too quick, in many cases these stores need to run the AC anyway until the temperature is -10f. Body heat accounts for quite a bit. Particularly when there is other equipment that gives off heat as a by-product.

As the other guy said, cold air tends to sit in the coolers, not raise up. The effect is there, but it isn't as significant as you would guess.

All this assumes that the fridges vent the excess heat outside, which is not true for all of them.

Re:Good idea but

[brendanoconnor]

One of the main reasons a lot of grocery stores have open coolers, especially for beer, is for the simple reason that you can put more beer into that kind of cooler. The coolers with the doors have less space. So while the grocery store might save money on energy, they would have to do it at the cost of shelf space for beer. Or, assuming they want to keep the same amount of selection of beer, cut out something else to allow for the bigger cooler.

It is all about maximum choice for the customer.

Re:Good idea but

[drsquare]

I work part-time at a grocery store (and 9 credits short of a masters', too), and I know how unreliable cashiers are. They call out sick. A lot. Or they simply don't show up. And then there's the whole thing about having to provide benefits--these are all expenses, and the food industry (outside of 5 star restaurants) is notoriously low margin. They have to save money where they can.

I have some better ideas to save money:

1. Don't pay anyone sick-pay, and if they're off too much, sack them. Grocery shop workers are ten a penny.
2. Don't provide benefits. Benefits are for permanent long-term important employees in big companies, not hired grunt work in a crap shop.

I work in a job much harder than sitting at a till in a shop, and I don't get sick pay nor benefits, so I don't see why they can't be cut off completely for shop workers.

Re:Good idea but

[Anonymous Coward]

I think some of the freezers I've seen exhaust their waste heat into the ambient air in the store...

Not in any grocery store that I've been in. And it's something you really would notice. I can feel the heat from my own small freezer/refrigerator quite easily. A giant row of freezer cases must produce a shitload of heat.

The store probably circulates a chilled water supply for refrigerated cases. The freezer section probably has its own cooling system which dumps waste heat directly to the outside. (Of course that part is just my speculation.)

But yeah, for a store with only a small grocery selection, it's probably not worth doing things the efficient way. But in my experience they don't have open-air refrigerated cases. Presumably this is why.

Re:Good idea but

[BradleyUffner]

You remember last year? When they all went on strike in CA? I see they had a really easy time finding replacements.

Re:Good idea but

[mankey wanker]

"My life sucks, so your life should suck too. Everyone has to pay their 'fair share'."

Who wants this guy on the jury at their trial? Show of hands...

Re:Good idea but

[drsquare]

I didn't say that. Stop putting words in my mouth, it makes you look like an idiot, and a cunt. What I'm saying is, it's common acceptable practice to give no benefits or sickpay, so the shops should do this to help them survive with their razor thin margins.

Re:Good idea but

[Breakfast Pants]

Even better would be to exhaust waste heat outside in the summer/spring and inside in the fall/winter. Then these things wouldn't really cost any more or less than the closed door versions if the compressor was on par with that in their central air conditioner.

Re:Good idea but

[MerlinTheWizard]

and I know how unreliable cashiers are.

And of course, Windows CE is reliable. Uh huh yeah. That's right people.

So now cities can Gripe about...

[CygnusXII]

So now Cities that have fines for shopping cart being off the premises, can fine a business for Toxic Materials being improperly stored, retained or looked after. On the other hand, the homeless can really look forward to retasking the devices and get internet access.

Re:So now cities can Gripe about...

[lukewarmfusion]

Because we all know that most homeless people are laid-off programmers.

Damn you India!

Re:So now cities can Gripe about...

[teknomage1]

Yeah, I feel bad driving by the guys with signs like, "Will code for $food," and "Help out a Y2k Sysadmin."

No surprise.

[Anonymous Coward]

The shopping carts are always crashing into cars in shopping mall parking lots.

Re:No surprise.

[mjh49746]

That's when you get a cheap old beatermobile and ram into some shopping carts to get great justice. I suppose you could try it with an uber-expensive SUV, but dents, scratches, and cracked plastic grilles cost a lot more to repair than entire beatermobiles these days. Why pay more? Besides, they're also great for killing orange barrels throughout the nine month road construction season. It's a great Michigan pastime! ;-)

My dream cart:

[Gunsmithy]

Ideally, this system would also be mixed with a motor drive for the wheels so that I can be propulsed directly towards the cheetos and mountain dew.

Re:My dream cart:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ideally, this system would also be mixed with a motor drive for the wheels so that I can be propulsed directly towards the cheetos and mountain dew."

In some obscure parts of the world...walking is actually fun and considered healthy.

These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Lostie]

Yup, if I saw one at my local supermarket, I'd gladly give up a £1 coin (many UK supermarkets make you put a £1 coin into them as a "deposit") to steal one. For £1, it's a bargain for sure!

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[ad0gg]

Shopping cart is worth more. They are worth a couple hundred bucks a piece and people do steal them.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Sebastian Jansson]

Hmm otherwise I know a place where you cann steal normal stuff for £0!
Just look for stores without those pesky alarm systems and you have yourself a bargain!

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[roseblood]

Fujitsu lists the following key features and specifications for the U-Scan Shopper:

* Processor -- 400 MHz Intel XScale
* Memory -- 64 or 128 MB SDRAM; 32 MB Flash
* Display:
o 6.5-inch reflective TFT LCD with VGA resolution
o CCFL backlight with software controls
o Temperature-based contrast compensation
* Wireless -- 802.11b or g; built-in 2.4 GHz antenna
* Scanning -- 2D imager
* Power:
o Main -- 2 6V, 7.2 aH sealed lead acid batteries in locked case
o Backup -- rechargeable lithium ion
o Piezo motion sensor implements power standby mode

Let me tell you, I'd take this thing over the metal wire carts I see stores provide around here!

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[lxt518052]

No, it's not deposit.

Everybody returns the trolly to the cart pool in order to get their £1 back. So there's no need to hire extra hand collecting carts all over the car park with this mechanism.

With or without this so-called deposit, carts get stollen sometimes. £1 and a shopping cart, hardly match on value.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Anonymous Coward]

They also take Euros, so if your going to nick the cart, use a Euro

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[jrumney]

If you're going to nick a cart, it doesn't matter what you use, a hammer will get it back out once you've cleared the carpark.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Inda]

The kids around here smash the coins out with a screwdriver and a huge hammer. It doesn't look hard. There, I just saved you a pound.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no.
With Wireless, some wit will program the sceen saver to the opposition, and advertise things * 2. In Australia some wit programmed supermarket scales with *rude* messages. British/ Washington state mad cow beef on sale isle 5 /. Special on *sweet candy that may cause cancer, isle 9. It's wireless and MS, have they no brains? Much less of a challenge that say, DE bike hiring.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[Ambient Sheep]

If it works like the Waitrose system, then the only difference in the actual shopping trolley is that it has a (dumb) cradle to put the handheld scanner in. The scanner itself goes back on a rack before you leave the shop.

Re:These are going to be stolen, and hacked.

[nasdev]

All depends on how the system is implemented really. I remember during my studies the supermarket I did my groceries at had a system like this in place (that was 5 years ago btw). It required you to sign up for a card which contained your name and address, you'd then slip the card in a reader and a specific (numbered) scanning device would be "released" for you to use. So any device would be linked to a customer ID that could be used to locate you.

Bad idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a grocery store and the bags are at the front of the cashier tables (infact I just got home from work). The bags at our store are usually guarded by cashiers, but many bags are still in boxes up at the front open so cashiers and 'bag boys' can conviently refill their racks easily. Many customers already try to steal bags from the front and bag their groceries as they shop and then attempt to leave the store. Its unbelievable how gullable they think we are: "Im sorry Sir, you did not pay for those items, we will have to ask you to either pay for them, or return them". Automated scanner running Windows CE. I can already see technology gurus whipping up a hack to get free food.

Won't someone think of the children.

[CastrTroy]

I for one welcome the day when every job is replaced by a computer, and we all become people who just program and look after the computers. Seriously, if you implement this, automate McD's with machines, and automate the gas pumps, they'll be no more jobs for high school kids. And with ever increasing tuition costs, nobody will be able to afford college.

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[lfrandom]

Ehhh, there are plenty of things for high school kids to do besides working at grocery stores and McD's, take hard manual labor for example.

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[Anonymous Coward]

take hard manual labor for example

And prositution, so be thankful!

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. In the US, we're fast approaching a time when the only job for normal folk is bagging groceries and serving food to people who can actually afford such luxuries as a meal. If we eliminate those jobs, what is 70+% of the population going to do to survive?

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[hunterx11]

This oft-spoken concern will obviously come to fruition, just as the ever expanding economic powerhouse that is Japan will overtake the U.S. in the business sector.

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[T-Ranger]

I invision a world when we need exactly two employees for the entire planet.

A dog.
and
A Person.

The dogs job is to make sure the person doesnt touch the computer.
The persons job is to feed the dog.

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[teknomage1]

Ehhh, there are plenty of things for high school kids to do besides working at grocery stores and McD's, take hard manual labor for example
We have illegal immigrants for that!

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not necessarily true.

When there are needs, there are jobs. All inventions are just devices to solve complexity with higher complexity. Just because robots and computers solve complexity at certain level it doesn't mean higher complexities don't exist. There is just no limit to complexity.

In this current physical universe, all matters decay into chaos. There is no shortage of need for maintenance. Industry will adapt maintenability of complex systems to the level where high school kids can perform it themselves.

And given the human yearning for eternity in this universe of non-eternity (aka religion), I don't think we will ever reach a limit on the need for more complexity.

I think it's a cycle. College tuition becomes higher because more kids want to go to college, because more complexity needs more education. But eventually what used to be college courses will move down to high school, and what used to be important part of current courses will get reduced, and now we are back to high school kids knowing everything they need to get a job.

Think about it. All complexities are solved by higher abstraction of the same model that solved the lower complexities. As long as kids learn this fundamental model, there is no limit to what they can solve. One of the strong points why math is so important.

The problem is not the technology, it's the people who make bad decisions regarding technology, education, and religion.

Without education, there is nothing to tell. Without technology, there is nothing to work with. Without religion, there is nothing to hope for.

Life is like that. As I said, all non-living matters decay. But life has knowledge to communicate (e.g. stored in genetic material which are passed down), have tools to work with (the non-living materials), and have a yearning (for survival and procreation).

It's just how life decides what to do, that is the question. At least non-human life tends to follow its "religion". Humans seem to be the only living matter that can decide to "think about" and "choose" what they are yearning for.

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[FusionDragon2099]

The companies of the world wouldn't do that. If they eliminated every human employee, who could afford to buy their product?

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[Anonymous Coward]

Without religion, there is nothing to hope for

aaaah!! Now I know what's my problem

Re:Won't someone think of the children.

[beanlover]

I for one welcome the day when every job is replaced by a computer...

This article has a few interesting things to say about how and what kind of jobs get replaced by computers/automation.

*crash*

[Anonymous Coward]

windows in the supermarket?
"I'm sorry sir, you have illegaly copied those DRM peas..."

A personal perspective..

[NoMercy]

A local store tiraled self-scaning, and decided to withdraw the service eventually...

people fail to scan things, so you get goods leaving the store unpaid for and coupled to that you don't have people stuck in queues, which although a bane to customers, it's while your stuck in queues that your right next to the magazines, sweets and other goods which they put there to tempt you, so they loose sales of last minute items too.

On the plus side you don't need to employ as many staff on the tills, but there normally minimum wage or just above it, so not a huge saving there concidering the new expense on the gadgets, mantance etc.

In conclusion, were unlikely to see it anywhere big-scale, though walk-though checkouts using RFID might appear, though in the UK we now have almost all the major stores offering online shopping, couple that with the local shops for fruit, vedge and the other things people like to feel before they buy and the supermarket could be comming to an end...

Re:A personal perspective..

[Sabalon]

I remember seeing a commercial a few years (okay...like 12 years ago) where they would push the cart through an enclosed machine, and it would come out the other end with your purchases tabulated. Never made it live, but a cool idea.

Of course, when they start going with the RFID, just start making sure you buy a lot of aluminum foil everytime you go to the store and place it strategically around the cart :)

I don't mind waiting in lines (or queues) as long as they are moving. One chain has very friendly people that can get you through the line rather fast. Wal-mart on the other hand hardly ever has anyone working and takes an eternity. Tonight at 9pm I was standing looking at the closed aisle which proudly displayed a "Open Everyday 9am - 10pm" sign.

It all comes down to how the company treats the workers. I actually don't mind paying a little bit more if it is a better environment.

Ok, so flame me but...

[WinterSolstice]

I think this is pretty cool. I would like to see it in action (on a large scale). I know there are some installations of it, but I think it is as good an idea as the ATM.

My only questions:
1) Does it run bluetooth/802.11x or IR to sync with my Pocket PC
2) Does it cost so damn much that the price of food will go way up (again)?

-WS

Re:Ok, so flame me but...

[realityfighter]

They have these at the Albertson's in my home town, and the prices there are quite reasonable. I doubt these systems put much cash strain on a store beyond what you usually need to run one, what with tracking customer purchases and tying it all into inventory and such. I bet it's a steal compared to all those checkers they used to employ. (Seriously, I've been there at times when there was only one checker, and she was overseeing the self-check.)

no more car!

[L1nux_L0ser83]

now i can wardrive and shop at the same time...sweet!

Dynamic pricing

[SpaceLifeForm]

The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store."

Right. Let them know you're coming. They're sure to have a 'special' just for you, their 'select' customer.

Re:Dynamic pricing

[Mike Rubits]

You mean they might offer you savings? Hey, if they want to give me rebates or sales, then I won't complain.

Re:Dynamic pricing

[metoo34]

Hmm... As long as they know you're coming, let them get your groceries and have them ready when you get there. Waiting by the curb. I think this is already being done with robotic "pickers" in more of a warehouse/factory type setting with bins and conveyor belts but they also deliver. Pricey. Maybe a regular 'Kroger' type store could pay the laid off baggers to wear roller blades and do the 'picking'? I'd pay extra if I never had to set foot in the store.

Re:Dynamic pricing

[NotQuiteReal]

Yeah, if they have a running total, just take items out of the cart as you near the front of the store.

Items out... items in... same total... items out... items in... hmmm $1 off.

Let's leave that gallon of ice cream in the cracker section... ding ding ding. Miscreant on aisle three!

Re:Dynamic pricing

[archen]

Actually I'm wondering if anyone thought that through. What is this device going to handle? Excel, Open office, some wacky text file I cooked up? Seriously, who puts their grocery list on a computer? (and I mean REGULAR people) So I'm going to walk over to the next room and type into my computer junk like I need maple syrup? I have a pen and paper in my cupboard - takes 2 seconds to write down. It makes no sense to walk over to the computer (provided it's even on), open a program and type stuff in. Then I suppose I have to download it to some usb keychain/memory card in order to cart it along with me.

Yeah, I'll stick with my piece of paper thanks.

Re:Dynamic pricing

[TheRaven64]

If they're going to round up all of your shopping for you, then they may as well deliver it to your house. Tesco's does this in the UK, but they charge £5 for the service, which seems a bit steep.

Re:Dynamic pricing

[mallardtheduck]

You would probably have to log on to the store's website and type it into a form...
The system could allow you to choose item that you buy every week or base shopping lists on previous trips.
Also, when you get to the store the device could tell you which isle your items are in or even show you a map to the item. Maybe it would even work out the shortest route around the store...

Re:Dynamic pricing

[stevey]

Tesco's does this in the UK, but they charge £5 for the service, which seems a bit steep.

I love the Tesco's home delivery service!

In the past I would go shopping maybe once every month for about £50-80 pounds worth of food, tinned frozen etc. The rest of the fresh stuff I can buy from the corner shop on the way to/from work.

That would cost me for the food and for the taxi ride home (because I don't have a car).

So now instead I pay five pounds that would have gone on a taxi fair and can be really evil and order tons of stuff I never would have bought before - like a huge bag of potatoes, or ten sacks of cat litter in one go.

Suddenly not having to wait around for a taxi or carry heavy gear up to the third floor flat I stay in is easily worth five pounds.

So now I can't even go shopping...

[Anonymous Coward]

without being forced to use a substandard OS produced by an ethically substandard company?

Fsck that!

Re:So now I can't even go shopping...

[Koiu Lpoi]

I did. You really should upgrade to Reiser, the lack of journaling is just killing you.

BSOD

[MoFoQ]

"Hmm....let's see...I need some lettuce in aisle 1, can soup in aisle 6, and toilet paper in aisle.....oop...BSOD"

as long as it's not as bad as the BMW 7-series WinCE BSOD horror stories....I guess we can live with it.

Right. And also

[Valiss]

Wasn't self-checkout, like some chains have, supposed to be super fast and easy? They've been far from that the 3 or 4 times I've tried it.

Next step.

[tommyth]

Let's take it a bit further, how about some type of system where we tell it what we like, and it buys the food for us? Or maybe intigrating it with those scooter carts so we don't have to be given the hard task of walking around the store.

In all seriousness though, many people get confused by the U-Scan checkouts they have now... I can't wait to see my grandmother try to use this proposed system.

Why Not Linux?

[LighthouseJ]

Why can't Linux get in on this? It seems like to me that Linux is much smaller and more flexible and secure than Windows to use in embedded devices like this. Why can't they use a free software base to produce something better? That way there's a smaller cost to market these devices to the supermarket chain you are pushing for.

The only downside is that Microsoft already has a framework for this kind of thing because it's in their own financial best interest. For a group to do this in Linux, the only interest would be in furthering Linux's acceptability in everydays lives.

Re:Why Not Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't Linux get in on this?

Because they aren't so ravingly stupid?

Re:Why Not Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I meant the people choosing Windows being too ravingly stupid to choose anything else...sigh, my brain is too asleep today to bother trolling.

Re:Why Not Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

i can tell you, as a pos developer, why linux has not made more in-roads into retail -- lack of opos/javapos driver development by the hardware vendors. they don't spend the money because an amazing number of retailers are willing to risk their entire store systems to windows. some pos hardware makers are theoretically more open (ibm has linux drivers for many of their pos devices, for example, supporting a limited selection of distros, ie, red hat), but for retailers who use pieces and parts equipment (conventional pc's with cash drawers, slip printers, etc) the lack of linux drivers keeps the o/s out of the running.

right, wrong or otherwise, fujitsu is squarely in microsoft's corner. they do whatever microsoft thinks is the right thing to do at any point in time. i will give them credit - their ce.net based ipad is a nice handheld data terminal/scanner - great color display, and their kiosk terminal is not too shabby either.

many of the apps developed for fujitsu's mobil devices are web-based, btw. they include a special version of ie that sheds all control bars, and renders the page wall to wall on the screen.

so far, i have found it to be a fairly reliable platform. if someone does infect the system, and downloads something into the flash disk, you can pretty simply wipe the slate clean, and reload your system image.

don't get me wrong - i would love to see more linux in the pos market, but so far i have not seen a lot of interest in my client base. bottom line, most of the failed efforts at using linux, such as home depot, were due to lack of device drivers.

Re:Why Not Linux?

[HacTar]

I used this several times in Italy and i think it use linux .

It's in use since 1998 and i saw even a lot of old people comfortable using that.

Re:Why Not Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no reason that Linux can't run on any of these devices.

These are fairly "open" industry standard platforms and very similar to the iPAQ and Zaurus.

This niche industry has been slow to adopt Linux primarily because of demand, not any particular aversion to Linux.

A rather ironic example involving this
device
is that in manufacturing every board is brought up with Linux. Manufacturing functional test is performed with an embedded Linux environment running on the Unit. In the end this is flashed over with the XIP WinCE OS (17MB) and whatever custom software necessary in IPSM.
The trimmed down compressed linux system is only a couple MB (and there are a ton of debugging and other UNIX tools that are useful in a manufacturing test context compared to the relatively useless utility of a 17MB WinCE image with PocketWord and Excel, etc).

Fabulous

[kitzilla]

Great. Now I have to reboot my damn shopping cart, too.

Wal-Mart + Self Checkout

[lfrandom]

So, is it just the Wal-Mart's in Iowa that all already have self-checkout. The way people are talking about them, it seems they are rare.

Re:Wal-Mart + Self Checkout

[rock_climbing_guy]

They have them in their Kunia, HI, and Mililani, HI stores as well. I'm not sure about their Honolulu, HI store, though - I think that it doesn't have them.

Re:Wal-Mart + Self Checkout

[pcmanjon]

I hate the self checkout things. Our family usually gets a entire basket full of grocerys, this takes forever because every 10th item sets off some alarm and then a cashier comes over quickly and asks what we need to scan.

The way they run over it's like we commited some crime or something, and they always ask us what we're trying to scan in an incriminating voice.

Until they can get that shit to stop mis-scanning items as a theft attempt (damn, you just put the barcode accross it from a can of beans and an alarm goes off) then I don't think it's a good idea.

Re:Wal-Mart + Self Checkout

[Andrewkov]

Yeah, I've tried them and found them to be incredibly frustrating to use. And plus since I'm a paying customer, the least the store can do is bag my groceries for me! ;-)

Re:Wal-Mart + Self Checkout

[realityfighter]

Yeah...for some reason the self-checkout machines at Wal-Mart are a lot more sensitive and less user-friendly than the ones used in most grocery stores. I don't know why this is, except maybe these machines were cooked up specifically for W-M and didn't go through the usual level of quality assurance.

On the other hand, the machine also knows the dimensions of every piece of inventory, so if something is too big to put in the bagging area, the machine tells you to just put it back in the cart. I don't know how useful this is, but it seems really cool to me.

this should fail

[Doppler00]

I've already tried one of those self checkout grocery store things and all I can say is that I'm not impressed. I don't see how moving the device to the shopping cart would make things any easier.

What is so difficult about going through a check out line? You might have to talk to a real person? Oh, how terrible. As much as I love technology and automation, I would rather pay a little more for my groceries then deal with the hassle of a self checkout system.

Now, if they had humanoid robots that did the check out that would be cool.

Re:this should fail

[rkcallaghan]

What is so difficult about going through a check out line? You might have to talk to a real person? Oh, how terrible.

High School Flunkie Cashier: Do you have a Value Membership Card Ma'am?

Me: No.

HSFC: Oh would you like one? You can see all of our great savings!

Me: No.

HSFC: Okay then could I get your telephone number and zip code please?

Me: No.

HSFC: Are you sure? We could use that to save your the hassle of having to bring a card with you?

Me: No.

HSFC: Alright then ... *rings up items*, *bags your food hastily, frustrated with your lack of 'cooperation'*

HSFC: Would you like to donate to the save the endangered cockroaches fund? 5% of every dollar goes to a real cockroach!

Me: No.

HSFC: Okay then will that be cash or charge?

Me: Cash. *hands HSFC a $20 bill*

Me: Excuse me, you shorted me a dollar.

HSFC: Oh I'm sorry, I can't open the drawer without a sale, could you wait to the side until this next customer is finished?

*head explodes*

At least at the local grocery store I shop at, which has a self check out, it STFU's the first time you say no, and gives correct change.

~Rebecca

Second Verse, same as the first

[pangur]

I used to work for Pathmark, a grocery shore chain in the Northeast US (specifically NY). About ten years ago the put on all their carts a screen that would notify them of specials in different lanes. You could accept coupons as they were sent to the screen.

I thought it was going to be the next wave of the future.

Within nine months, every cart had the system stripped out.

I don't know the exact reason the system was pulled (I had stopped working there by then). It was flaky, didn't always change display based on aisle, and some panels were broken, either by extreme weather (-20F that winter) or on purpose. Those are not trivial losses for a business with a tiny profit margin.

I use the self-serve checkout stands when I can. Some work fine, others keep telling me to start over from the beginning. Either way is slower than having someone else do it.

All I'm saying, is that it had better be a damn good piece of technology that saves some money on the backend before we see this stuff available at the local supermarket.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Bri3D]

The self-checkout stands are great except for that they're never any faster. Why? The people using them are morons. It doesn't help that the vast majority of them talk obnoxiously and simply confuse people. I especially love the Wal-Mart ones. They run Windows 2000, as I learned after the POS(That's Point of Sale though it might as well be the alternative) application tried to read some protected memory. On these systems, every time you press a button the unit goes unresponsive for ~5secs reading audio data.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[porcupine8]

Back in 1992-93, a chain in St Louis called Schnuck's had the same thing. That was their big schtick. Being 13, I thought this was SO COOL. I was shocked that it didn't catch on in more supermarkets. But now that I look back, we rarely shopped at Scnuck's because they were more expensive than other stores... Hm.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[realityfighter]

I heard a few years back that they used systems like that to do data mining - figure out where people stopped the longest, which products they went for first, which coupons they used the most, etc.

Supposedly they used the data to reorganize the store. More likely they would sell the demographics back to various manufacturers who pay good money for market data.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Sabalon]

Not all of them. I've seen MacOS errors on some of the ones are our local Wally World.

I agree with your other points - most people are too dumb to use them and they are a POS.

Though my best recollection was a 70 year old guy and his wife. He scanned her dress, put it on the belt and as it got halfway through the arches, it sent it back to him - must have not thought it was the right item. He looked at the screen, belt and dress, and just chucked it down to his wife who was bagging stuff.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[n17ikh]

You're absolutely right. It doesn't help the idiotic users that the machines are absolutely user-unfriendly. I work in a grocery store with a set of U-scan machines. The bag racks are on this giant lazy susan that has a scale. The system measures weight of the lazy susan and calculates whether they're trying to take items out or something. This works all well and good except it's SLOW. You have to scan an item and drop it in a bag and then wait about 4 seconds for the weight to register before it'll let you scan another. If you're expecting to scan 20 of something it's going to take you about 5 minutes. A person has to run the cashier station at all times too, the machines can't even really run by themselves. This person has to press the "flashing red light" icon to reset the scale if it detects a problem like a missing item, and you have to do this about every 2.3 seconds if the customer is leaning on the scale. DAMMIT GET YOUR FREAKING ARM OF THE SCALE! Argh. Anyways. It's hard as hell to run the machines when it's busy because you're running 4 registers at once in reality. Also, you have to track down who is who and get them to sign their credit card slips or they'll just leave them.

Those machines also require about an hour of maintenence every day when you have to empty all the bill/coin acceptors and refill the change dispensers. The code the machines are running actually works pretty smoothly other than the scale issue and interface problems, they must have hired some good coders for them this time around. The machines run XP though, the most unstable application they could have picked for a POS system.

As for the NORMAL registers, they're even worse. They're old as hell (they run OS/2 Warp for christsakes) and there are tons of bugs in the program. Press clear too many times while you're trying to scan a check? BANG, the machine locks up and you have to reboot it. Fortunately, the system stores current application data in a central server, so when it comes back up, it comes back up to the same transaction in the same place you left off. However... They take (no lie) 20 minutes to boot up. Occasionally the machines will just malfunction for no reason. The other day the ENTIRE EFT system was down and we had to do ALL credit, debit, EBT, gift cards, WIC, and checks manually, which is a HUGE PITA and we had all our registers open and customers were still way backed up. The cause? We're currently remodeling and someone tripped over a network cable. The entire thing died for a whole day because no one knows how to troubleshoot it. The registers freeze when you try to print information on a check so you have to get the customers to write it out. The system is so limited and quirky I'm surprised it works at all.

The Kmart next to us had a self-check system for a few weeks and then abandoned it. We, however, still have ours. These four registers take up the space of three normal ones that could do 5 times as much work for about half the cost, despite having to pay cashiers. They only pay us $6/hour anyways and they stopped giving raises this year. They can afford to keep someone up front the whole night. But simply because they think it'll cost more (it's cheaper in reality) they send everyone home after 12 and the night stockers manage U-scan if someone uses it and they happen to be in the vicinity. If something goes wrong and the customer can't find a stocker, they're screwed.

Altogether, the machines are pretty stupid. Moreso when a customer with TWO BUGGIES FULL OF GROCERIES comes through U-scan when there are unoccupied cashiers. They take at least 45 minutes to check out because it's so slow. We don't care about customer service though, we'd rather be stupid and run U-scan.

I don't think we're going to get buggies with these screens anytime soon. They would all be broken within a week. Carts are abused HARD and they're pretty expensive, around $500 per cart, without adding this stuff. This isn't very viable technology, IMO.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The machines don't work right. On one, I found I had to hover the bar code a bit above the glass to make it read. It wouldn't read well if the object was on the glass. I am glad the focus was below the glass. The systems themselves are slow. If something isn't right it would cause delays. If it didn't properly sense an item drop in the bag, it would make you get the manager or something. Even when it did work, I scan an item, and it waits several seconds before presenting the next step. The UI just wasn't responsive in other respects as well.

I had two or threebad experiences with bad Home Depot self-check systems and understaffed standard check-out lanes. I was going to register a complaint with Home Depot manager but I just go to Lowe's now, which thankfully still doesn't have the crap self-checkout systems. The machines are an insult, they seem to be built cheaply so that the chains can justify buying them to avoid hiring a proper number of cashiers.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[sconeu]

They were still there in '92? I remember shopping there in '80 (was attending wustl.edu at the time)!

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[jrumney]

The self-checkout stands are great except for that they're never any faster. Why? The people using them are morons.

When they were first introduced here, like self-checkin at the airport they were faster to use because everyone else was scared of using them so there were no queues. Now that everyone uses them, it is faster to pick the cutest checkout operator and join her queue.

Part of the problem is that the ones here use scales to check that what you scan is what you put in your shopping bag, and the system keeps getting people to rescan things because the weight doesn't quite match or they were too slow putting it in the bag, or they needed to start a new bag, and if they were scanning at half the speed that a checkout operator does, they've scanned three more things since what the system is complaining about, so they end up rescanning the wrong thing and needing assistance from the checkout supervisor to fix up the whole mess.

So I don't think the morons have much to do with it really. Its just quicker to have someone who's experienced with the scanner and knows its quirks, trusted to not need the backup scales (though they probably have a camera watching them, so they're not completely trusted), and authorized to cancel the odd item and rescan when needed (though often they've exceeded their limit and need the supervisor to come and authorize it anyway in my local).

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Bent Mind]

I generally find the self-checkout lanes much faster. The morons in my area tend to use the regular lanes and avoid self-checkout. The units I've used don't bother with audio unless you wait for them to talk. I do prefer the units that let you sign electronicly. What's the point of self-checkout if you have to wait for a cashier? My major complaint is that all of the stores in my area insist on turning the units off at 10PM. They seem to think it's better to have 30 people wait in line for the single cashier that works at night.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Bri3D]

I have seen many people who have to listen to the audio prompts before they will do anything. So...after every item, they spend 5 seconds listening to "Please place the item in the bag" before they just do the logical next step, which is placing the item in the bag. It doesn't help when for example at Home Depot(which I think runs the same app as Walmart-slow+Windows based), the checkout calls a credit card reader a "PIN Pad Device." At my local Home Depot the employees were forced to write "PIN Pad Device" on a label and stick it to the credit card reader.

Re:Second Verse, same as the first

[Bri3D]

You must have intelligently designed machines then, no audio. I have found the audio to be the main slowdown for people with less-than-average intelligence as they must listen to it before doing anything. And don't worry, they'll start coming to the self-check soon once it seeps in that the lines are shorter. In my area about a year after self-checks were put in plenty of morons started using them...

every new gadget is about selling something

[zagatka]

what about a gadget that actually improvs the quality of our lives instead of more gadgets about selling more useless junk, sorry products to the gullible masses?

Are they constructing traffic pattern maps?

[Cryofan]

I wonder if they are sending back postition signals for collection while you are pushing the cart throughout the store. That way they could map traffic pattern and speeds of all shoppers and use that for marketing analysis....

Re:Are they constructing traffic pattern maps?

[Anonymous Coward]

And how would that data help with "marketing analysis"? Wouldn't it help them redesign their store to be more efficient? How exactly is that marketing?

Re:Are they constructing traffic pattern maps?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is marketing. Changing your product to make it more appealing to the customer is marketing. You're probably thinking about advertising, which it is not. There is a big difference.

Re:Are they constructing traffic pattern maps?

[Cryofan]

Sigh....

OK. Here ya go: as each shopper meanders throughout the store, the carts send back position data, which is logged along with time. Then you write a program to create summed floor paths for all carts that are color coded for speed of progress at each location. Then you superimpose those summed paths on a floor map. Then you look at it and see where the customers are going, i.e., exactly where they are at each time, and see how long they spend, on average at each point.

THen you can see where your displays need to be. For example, you can find spots that customers linger longer and put displays there. And you can see where they are NOT spending much time, and NOT put displays there.

See...MARKETING!

Re:Are they constructing traffic pattern maps?

[conteXXt]

Do you mean things like putting BBQ sauce near the meat?

or maple syrup near the frozen waffles and pancake mix?

Stating the obvious...

[jpardey]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those!

cool!

[nugunz_101]

Sounds like a pretty cool idea, but how would they manage the battery life of this "port. comp?" I guess they could either use batteries or they can strap something onto the wheel to power it.....Any body have any ideas?

Re:cool!

[gardyloo]

They'll power them using the force needed to overcome those stuck wheels. The only problems will come when local sports teams show up to stop, and get carts with two or more stuck wheels. Then batteries will start to explode.

Re:cool!

[Bri3D]

With the wheel mounted generator you would have to place on on both rear wheels to prevent the cart from listing to one side. The problem here would be this: Think about carts to start with and how many have broken wheels. Now think about what happens to stores if each stuck wheel takes an employee 30mins to fix. The stores couldn't just ignore stuck wheels anymore. Plus repairing the wheel would be made more complex by the need to pull off a generator unit. If the generator was made durable enough though, this would be a good idea.

Please no one post a misuse of generator/dynamo/alternator. You get the point.

I hope this takes off.

[Exluddite]

I've got big money riding on this whole idea. I lost my ass on videophone booths and internet kiosks.

How incredibly stupid considering

[pair-a-noyd]

among many, many, things, these two little little details:

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/18/1 92 0244&tid=201&tid=218

and

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/18/ 21 3239&tid=158&tid=219

There is no way in hell I will ever participate in any such activities.
I'll keep my green cash in my pocket, next to my 9mm, where both will stay until I decided.
I'll maintain my own privacy and my own security and my own possesions...

Thanks, but no thanks...

Re:How incredibly stupid considering

[porcupine8]

I'll keep my green cash in my pocket, next to my 9mm

But then, will there be room enough for your tinfoil hat?

(Btw, neither of those URLs seem to lead to anything. I think The Man deleted them when he saw you referencing them.)

Re:How incredibly stupid considering

[Anonymous Coward]

..next to your insanity. Dude, seriously, you should see a shrink about that paranoia problem of yours.

Re:How incredibly stupid considering

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to do that, but I just *hate* my cash flying all over the place when I have to shoot muggers! Try the other pocket next time.

W1NC3: your shopping list is 0wn3d

[GillBates0]

customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store.

It3m #1: G04ts3 decorative poster.
It3m #2: G0at53-B-G0n3 eyewash.
It3m #3: Flea and SCO repellant.
It3m #4: Lubriall hand and skin cream.
It3m #5: ??? It3m #6: PROFIT!!!

Re:W1NC3: your shopping list is 0wn3d

[Koiu Lpoi]

Eyewash isn't gonna cut it man. You still have your mind's eye. Only the MIB FlashyThing (tm) is gonna be worthwhile here.

Complicated!

[mOoZik]

Did anyone else see that screenshot? That looks like a nightmare. Trained "associates" have a hard time scanning and bagging. Are we sure that people will be smart, fair, and advanced enough to use this system to its fullest without resorting to extra-intentional functions?

Re:Complicated!

[hey!]

It does look too ambitious to me. I can imagine the aisles of the future grocery store, clogged with people staring at their little PDA screens.

If they stuck to making the following three functions extremely easy, they'd have a winner: (1) locate an item for me; (2) price an item (3) ring up the items I put in my cart so I can get out of there faster.

Maybe Apple will make an iCart.

Customer Tracking Reloaded.

[ABeowulfCluster]

Now.. you have to return the cart otherwise they'll know you were the last one using it. Also, 'they' will see your shopping list. In some ways, I'm looking forward to this because your underground parking has a million shopping carts there and my lazy ass neighhbours leave carts in the hallways. Now, they'll be busted and sent to bad shopper prison.

OT but true.... according to the government

[johnpaul191]

the state of New Jersey has said more than once that the main reason they will not allow self serve gas pumps is that it will cost people their jobs.
it's also a strong reason many people in the government do not support a flat tax. it will put a TON of people out of work (IRS staff and related support, as well as CPAs etc...).

honestly it's stupid to keep people doing worthless jobs just to keep them employed. you would think somebody can come up with something useful for them to do.

Re:OT but true.... according to the government

[swimin]

Stuff like that hurts the wor'ds GNP. What if we put all that money into something else, so all those people still can work, but instead they could do something useful.

Re:OT but true.... according to the government

[prockcore]

the state of New Jersey has said more than once that the main reason they will not allow self serve gas pumps is that it will cost people their jobs.

I've never heard that. The reason I've heard is because people are morons and spill their gas (and top off), and it was an environmental issue.

Re:OT but true.... according to the government

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that explains why they had both self-serve gas pumps and service gas pumps in New Jersey. Morons take the service ones, and smart ones take the self-serve ones.

Now, how does one prevent a moron using the self-service, or a non-moron to take the service gas pump?

Re:OT but true.... according to the government

[johnpaul191]

they have both? i have not gotten gas in NJ in about a year or so but last i was there it's still all full serve. it's funny when NJ people come to PA and realize most gas stations here are 100% self serve and they are just confused how to use a gas pump. it's amazing how often you see it.

And next is the Microsoft Shopping Assistant

[WidescreenFreak]

"Hi. I'm Stringy. It looks like you're shopping for feminine hygiene prodcuts today. Would you like some help in making your purchase? * Heavy flow * Light flow * Daily pads * I'm a man, you freakin' jackass Please select how I might help you."

Re:And next is the Microsoft Shopping Assistant

[WidescreenFreak]

And next time I'll his the damned "Preview" instead of "Submit" button! Grrrr.....

So let's reformat that...

* Heavy flow
* Light flow
* Daily Pads
* I'm a man, you freakin' jackass

Too late, I suppose. Oh, well.

Re:And next is the Microsoft Shopping Assistant

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about the rest of the crowd, but it seemed somehow funnier the first time...

Re:And next is the Microsoft Shopping Assistant

[WidescreenFreak]

Would have been a lot funnier if it was formatted right the first time. Oh, well. Friday, late at night post. Sh*t happens. :)

Yeah, well, but its Windows

[flyingsquid]

...so the shopping carts will probably try to discourage you from buying Apples.

i wonder when

[Anonymous Coward]

identity theft and credit card theft will be using this grocery shopping technology???

And I'm sure it's not encrypted...

[zymurgy_cat]

...meaning someone can set up a laptop outside the store and find out all the prescriptions that people are having filled.

On a less paranoid note, I wonder if they'll make it user friendly. Ever try scanning multiple items at self serve checkouts in places like Home Depot? If you want to buy about 2 dozen 1/2" SS worm gear hose clamps, be prepared to scan 2 dozen hose clamps one at a time.....

Re:And I'm sure it's not encrypted...

[rkcallaghan]

...meaning someone can set up a laptop outside the store and find out all the prescriptions that people are having filled.

Disclaimer: IANAPharmacist(yet), but I am a pharamcy student, which includes at least brief study of relavent law.

It is highly unlikely that this system would be used with prescriptions. For one, by its very nature, prescriptions are not selected by the customer, and the sale must be verified on the spot.

Also, the pharmacy records are considered medical records, and must be kept seperate and private from anything the store is using for other (read: marketing) purposes.

So while your encryption concern is likely accurate, and abuse is possible, pharmacy is not the area that is likely to be abused.

~Rebecca

Onece again the OSS is out manouvered

[Timesprout]

react ..... again, lets her a how fantastic it all is to have missed this and how innovative FOSS. s

never...

[dosle]

never has crashing shopping carts been so fun.

Re:Yes, but..

[Koiu Lpoi]

Because that's a valid issue to be talking about with shopping carts. I'm doubting it's even webbased at all. Also, there is an extension for FF to fix that issue. So, to answer your completly offtopic question, I'm sure it can render Slashdot just fine - if the developers had any reason for a shopping cart to read slashdot.

WINCE Shopping Cart

[jearlcalkins]

WIN CE ....
Sounds like a great addition to that one shopping cart that has a wacked out wheel that locks up and wails like a banshee. Everyone in the store is looking at you and saying, "get another cart" loser. What is FUJI thinking?

Try buying 40 koolaid packages in the U-scan line

[skeptictank]

It will drive the attendent to madness.

Self-checkouts are for retards.

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing I hate about self-checkout systems is that you have to scan the item, then put it down so that it doesn't wiggle, or it'll tell you to remove the extra item(s) because the wiggling item triggered the weight sensor, and it suspects some thievery. They program the weight of every product into the scanner. If you don't put it down, it doesn't let you scan the next item. So never mind that you're honest. Or that the attendant is watching your every move. Or that you're being videotaped. We still want you to act like a retard, and c a r e f u l l y follow every direction like a retard. If you dilly-dally too long, then the thing beeps for the attendant. So what do you really save by doing the self checkout? Not a lot. You can't scan items nearly as fast as the regular checkout... so you end up spending the time you COULD have saved trying to scan your items so FUCKING METICULOUSLY that you don't get FLAGGED TO HAVE THE FUCKING ATTENDANDT come over and see what's going on!

It's so fucking annoying. If they made a system with a regular scanner, a regular conveyor belt, and you could scan items as fast as the checkout clerks, they'd have MORE PEOPLE USING TEH SELF CHECKOUT!

Self-checkout carts will only work when they have RFID sensors in every product, and that's not happening for awhile.

Re:Yes, but..

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

I was playing off of the "Does it run Linux" thing, but I've got the karma to suffer a few mods who don't get my "special" (Read: very stupid) brand of humor.

They just don't get it

[93 Escort Wagon]

"The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store."

Sounds like more work than doing what I do now, which is print out the running list we have on our main computer. I can then easily go down the list, crossing things off as I put them in the cart.

So why would I, or anyone else, use a system that is more work than how I manage the task now? Sure it might benefit the store; but why is it so hard for some business people to realize that customers aren't going to adopt a new system that provides no benefit to said customers?

(As an aside, it's not just business people that refuse to learn this lesson. I've been forced to put together web systems that end up unused because the "client" - usually a faculty member, but sometimes my computing manager - just can't grok that concept. Sheesh, try talking to your end users / customers about what would benefit them before deciding how something should work.)

Re:They just don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like more work than doing what I do now, which is print out the running list we have on our main computer. I can then easily go down the list, crossing things off as I put them in the cart.

So why would I, or anyone else, use a system that is more work than how I manage the task now? Sure it might benefit the store; but why is it so hard for some business people to realize that customers aren't going to adopt a new system that provides no benefit to said customers?


No, it is simpler than using a paper list.
You upload the list from home, and when you arrive at the store it automatically loads because it keys off your RFID implant.

Pretty soon you won't even need to type the list because it will interface to the Bluetooth dongle connected to your brain.

We'll test it!

[Anonymous Coward]

As with all new technology, we'll make sure to test it!

How long will they last....

[mjh49746]

...until the electronics in these shopping carts get totally thrashed by either vandalism, rough use, stolen, weather, vibration, impact damage, etc. 3 months? Six? A year, tops? What an utter waste of time and money here, imo.

Shopping Lists

[SunFan]

I write up my shopping list at the last minute, and I rarely stick to it. It gets thrown away immediately upon getting home. Why invest so much money in an electronic version of something so casual and disposable?

I think the comments about mapping store traffic are the most plausible explanation. Perhaps they'll finally put the frozen foods just past the refrigerated ones so people don't have to walk all the way back to pick up ice cream before leaving. Some stores are just laid out by morons.

Re:Shopping Lists

[The Cisco Kid]

They put the things like milk (or ice cream) in the back on purpose, so if you are 'just stopping in to get a jug of milk', all the weak-willed people have to walk by all their center-aisle displays and whatnot.

They arent morons, they know *exactly* what they are doing.

I can't wait for the upgrade...

[stienman]

clippy: (In a loud voice) I see you're buying hemmoroid cream. Would you also like to purchase Tucks(tm)?

clippy: I notice you're buying a lot of antihistamine products. Would you like me to take you to the facial tissue aisle, or would you like a new meth recipe?

clippy: You're passing a great sale on bright red lipstick. Are you sure you want to pass this opportunity up? Buy some for the kids! It also makes a great marker for the person who keeps taking your parking spot.

-Adam

Outstanding

[HangingChad]

Finally, we can get p0rn pop ups on shopping carts. Just the distraction I need to take my mind off my fat, smelly, ignorant, sweatsuit wearing, moronic fellow shoppers at Walmart.

FUD

[ad0gg]

Tell me why linux is more secure than WinCE? These are embedded OSs. What are you gonna exploit on winCE or embedded linux? Also how is it more flexible? WindowsCE comes with source so you can strip out stuff you don't need and customize it. As for cost, it is less than $3 a device.

Re:FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Errr, so? Linux has all that and costs $0 per device. It's also rock-solid stable, which is more than you can say about any Windows release.

Re:FUD

[defy god]

Errr, so? Linux has all that and costs $0 per device. It's also rock-solid stable, which is more than you can say about any Windows release.

and who exactly is going to customize linux for these shopping carts? benevolent computer hackers? oh yes, definetely! we all know they'd surely love to do all the work for free on such a "i-did-it-because-i-can" type of project.

even though linux source code is out there for all to see and customize, someone still has to maintain the code. don't want to maintain the code for yourself? then go buy it from someone else (this case, microsoft).

Will this help?

[Quiet_Desperation]

You still need to bag the groceries. The scanning part is only a tiny bit of the time if you have to grab each item individually to bag it anyway. This seems like a long way to go to solve a non-existent problem. Seems like the brain power expended here could be better used elsewhere.

Wireless Shopping Carts

[Rubyflame]

Hah, all those shopping carts that you have to plug will soon be obsolete.

It's all about smoothing things out

[johndunlop]

The main advantage of the self checkouts (and this cart thingy) is the ability to handle short term peaks - and that is why I love them. Granted it may be a little longer for the average joe to check him or her self out, but having 6 lanes ready to go means thata sudden burst of folks can be handled easily and overall much quicker.

Somewhere Bill Gates is saying...

[windowpain]

All Your Cart Are Belong to Us.

What is it like to work with Win CE vs the deskto?

[putko]

It is different from normal Windows -- but how different?

Is it really like programming for their desktop version? MFC and all that stupid stuff?

Does it have all the security flaws? Or is it a stripped down kernel that works well (and is secure, because it lacks complex features)?

Thanks.

Blue Basket of Death

[AmberBlackCat]

I actually did have a problem with malfunctioning electronics in a shopping cart. At the Price Chopper grocery store out here, the carts have electronic braking systems that are designed to make the wheels stop rolling if the cart leaves the parking lot. Mine locked as soon as I got out of the store, well before we got to the car. I don't believe it was running Windows but you never know.

Winsock Error

[Thoguth]

We used windows CE devices for walkabout price scanning / stocking / shipping apps at a place I once worked (a large retail chain) On any given day, about half of the chain would place help desk calls because of gimpy client/server connectivity at the OS level.

We got the impression it was mostly on the server side, though, so maybe a well-engineered WinCE app interfacing with a "real" unix/mini-mainframe store server would have a chance of not barfing andll over the place and die while a user was scanning their frozen peas.

I really wouldn't think WinCE is the best tool for this, though. For one, its big advantage (I'd think) would be its ability to connect with Windows servers. And as I pointed out above, that is a bad idea. This is an "embedded" style system, it should work like a machine--push a button, it always does what it should, and no matter what happens, you should never see "winsock error" or "out of memory" or even "the system has encountereed an error and the current application will terminate."

Not to mention the added task of having to lock it down by removing IE ("pocket IE"), solitaire, Pocket Office or whatever other unnecessary crap that comes bundled standard with WinCE.

If you needed a shopping cart that could easily sync with outlook, or that needed rapid-development multimedia capability out of the box, with security and reliability being practical non-concerns, I could see WinCE being a good choice. But that doesn't sound like a cash register to you, does it?

Hmmm ....

[ggvaidya]

Reminds me of a story I once read.

Upload my shopping list?

[Macdude]

The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store.

Why would I take the time to copy my shopping list from the piece of paper I've scribbled it onto, into my computer and not just take the piece of paper to the store?

Wireless Shopping Carts Run Windows CE...

[pizero]

Only the ones with the gimpy wheels.

Open Coolers

[fossa]

... open coolers ...

Question: for laboratories, are there hoods with a laminar airflow from top to bottom that acts as a "door" that you can put your hand through? Could this be done for store refirerators, to keep the cold air in the fridge while having no door? I suppose if it could be, and if it would save money, it would have been done already...

Re:Open Coolers

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone from Dugway could probably answer that question, but then he'd have to shoot you.

Home Delivery?

[AngryElmo]

"...The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store."

Why would you even think this. If you have access to the web and are into planning your groceries list in advance, just place an order at one of many online grocery stores. No parking hassles, no queues, no wailing brats, no checkout-chicks chewing gum and smirking at your condom choice...

Fantastic!

[Ethanol]

All we have to do now is find a way to get linux installed on these puppies and hook up a keyboard, and shopping carts will be an even more indispensible tool for homeless people than they already were.

Spam/Malwares

[Anonymous Coward]

I am waiting for the day the shopping carts are full of spam and they are not the canned meat type. Or when they get infected with malwares and start getting your info and publish it on the net. Hey, look! Bob just bought a dozen bottles of Viagra and Jane bought supersized sex toys. Wait, you can find them in a supermarket??

Re:Spam/Malwares

[cybertears]

I want to know where you can purchase dozens of bottles and viagra and also where this Jane chick lives.

Re:What is it like to work with Win CE vs the desk

[Anonymous Coward]

It is different from normal Windows -- but how different?
Starkly different. There is virtually nothing in common between Windows NT and Windows CE except a half assed attempt at source level API compatibility (but most of the API functions are setup in such a way that most arguments are ignored in the CE counterparts)

Does it have all the security flaws? Or is it a stripped down kernel that works well (and is secure, because it lacks complex features)?

Well, I consider myself a Linux enthusiast and expert, and yet I will call a spade a spade and say that the NT kernel is fairly high quality when it comes to security and other issues (despite what some weenies will tell you, the Windows NT kernel although philosophically different in many ways of UNIX (just like, say, OS/400) was designed and written by sharp individuals.

What security flaws are you talking about? Maybe you should actually point them out. Most of Microsoft's security issues have come from poor default policy and integration issues (like ActiveX for everything), not from poor underlying design of individual components (The NT kernel is actually a very robust piece of software relative to other general purpose operating systems such as Linux). (Witness the fact that IE is actually the most robust browser when it comes to handling purposely malformed input (Mozilla crashes when fed many kinds of BOGUS input, some of these leading to a crash that may be exploitable with a little more cleverness))...
I think many people that are knowledgeable enough to be aware of the true nature Microsoft software quality are still fundamentally unhappy with the environment because it is integrated in such a way that makes development and debugging and maintenance very frustrating (an example might be the frustration of moving a harddrive to a new motherboard if one forgets to back the IDE drivers down to the generic ones, and things like the registry). It is entirely possible to be a Linux junkie while being realisitic about other systems.

Obviously my insight doesn't fit into the Slashdot mantra of MSFT sucks, Linux r00lz... oh well.

I have authored a number of patches for Linux and attend OLS regularly. Although my contributions have been relatively small, I'd wager they're much greater than the mean contribution of the Slashdot crowd.
That being said I don't let my devotion to Linux to fool myself into believing or propagating myths about "competing systems". (In the case of Windows, it is not a system I prefer working with, but I strive to correctly assess what I am critical of).

Anyway, that being said... Windows CE is a completely different and simplified kernel. It started out on the market 6 or 7 years ago as a complete Piece of Shit, marketed as a real time OS with almost criminal suggestions by MSFT that it had hard real time caps when it had absolutely dismal average and worst case latencies (and it was no throughput demon in I/O nor networking either).. but it has matured into a relatively usable and simplistic kernel with very good latencies and a fully threaded interrupt model....
However.. for what it is, it is bloated and for the applications it is used in it is frustratingly limited.* Also, for since it is meant to be trimmed down, the "half-assed" mapping to the Win32 API is laughable, an application like this is just pining for something like POSIX (the idea of cross NT/CE portability is a complete myth anyway (unless your NT app is not much more than "Hello, World"). But the core Windows CE kernel and basic system interface is actually not too bad.. too bad everything else sucks.

* The problem is that embedded systems mean different things to different people. Systems like PDAs and these POS terminals and such generally have no real time or other "deeply embedded" requirements, and actually have "trimmed down general purpose" requirements.. for these applications Linux provides a much more feature rich development/runtime environment with better flash real estate usage..

Re:What is it like to work with Win CE vs the desk

[putko]

If the windowing system is part of the kernel (and I believe it is), Windows NT is insecure, as already demonstrated so decisively. And yes, the integration of ActiveX has resulted in a huge hole (e.g. the stuff MS Blaster exploits).

That's what I meant by insecure.

I use OpenBSD. I wouldn't use Linux, but I would use another BSD (or perhaps even the NT kernel, if they fixed the two aforementioned holes).

Windows CE doesn't sound like it is so awful now. But if you can still do the shatter exploit, that's shoddy, and I'd wait until they rewrite it again, with feeling.

At the local supermarket

[Centurix]

"Ah, I see this has the new Windows CE thing attached, I'll be a smart shopper now!"

*pushes trolley, front wheel wobbles out of control

This is nothing new.

[CPeanutG]

My local Jewel-Osco, owned by Albersons, has a system called the Shop-N-Scan. Info here: http://www.corante.com/customer/archives/shop_n_sc an.php It has been running for several months in several test markets.

Cut out the middle-man.

[Inoshiro]

"The company even suggests that customers might upload a shopping list to the store's website before leaving home, and then download the list to the shopping cart upon arriving at the store."

Why stop there? Why not just have people send a list of what they want, and then when they get there they pay for it and just take it (prebagged) into their car. Boom, no more need to worry about having displays, samples, etc. People just tell you what they want, and then pick it up. You could even take it further and deliver to their home, but there are already a few businesses like that out there. There aren't any "phone-ahead" grocery orders I know of on a large scale, though.

Battery life?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are these things charged? My local grocery store uses an Axim-based system with an Xscale processor, and they only have about 3 hours of battery life between charges. Swapping the terminals out between the carts is a nightmare.

Re:What is it like to work with Win CE vs the desk

[Anonymous Coward]

First off the latest NT OS, Windows 2003 is more secure than virtually any *nix on the market. Secondly CE != to NT. Issues that affect one OS have virtually no impact on the other. Third, this shatter exploit issue has been discussed numerous times. The Shatter Exploit isn't a vulnerability because there already needs to be a secuirty breach in order to implement. Finally, as Windows transitions into the 64bit era the shatter exploit will be completely irrelvant. Wait...shatter exploit is already irrelavant.

Re:What is it like to work with Win CE vs the desk

[putko]

If Windows CE has the same message queue (and no extra protections to prevent one app from sending an arbitrary message to another app), don't you still have the shatter exploit?

Also, the shatter exploit isn't a remote exploit, but you say that because of that it doesn't matter?!?

That doesn't make sense; if you have a remote vulnerability that allows someone to implement a shatter exploit, any sort of remote exploit becomes (via composition) a remote, rootable exploit. Also, your own users are the ones to really worry about -- the guy who does the shatter exploit may be working for you. He doesn't have to be remote.

I think the attitude that you have towards exploits explains why MS security is so bad.

And what does 64 bits have to do with it anyway? That isn't logical either. So 32 bits bad, but 33 bits good? 59 bits bad, but 60 bits good? Where does it become good? In the transition from 63 to 64 bits?

When MS users are still suffering from horrific exploits, are you going to argue that with 128 bits things will be really nice? Its just that 64 bits isn't enough to do real security -- you need 128 bits for that. Or maybe 69 bits. Whatever -- more bits.

Why doesn't Billy just fix his 32 bits, like the OpenBSD team does?

In Old Europe FB!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wireless shopping carts in Old Europe run on Windows 3.2 FB!!!

The Old New Shopping experience...

[Nik Picker]

Okay , im speaking here from the point of view of all UK shoppers, especially the experience of Tescos.

You go into the store, and are carefully guided and directed up and down and around the aisles your ears assaulted by many multimedia adverts selectively displaying the choice supplemented goodies in the aisle of your choice. Your constantly distracted from the choices your trying to make or the effort of finding the item on your list.

When complete your cart is pushed towards one of 30 ( maybe more ) tills. now you have to locate and define the correct till for your shopping choices. Basket only ? express lane ? wide till ? 5 items or less ? cash only the choices go on .....

Now finnally you unpack, repack , and wait to pay.... here, and here I say is where my blood really boils , is where you cannot possibly leave until youve answered the instore 20 questions before payment is taken..

[till clerk :] do you have a store card ? no would you like on e ? but you get x% off or points ? are you sure ... okay okay ill take that throbbing vein as a no ...

Would you like school vouchers, petrol vouchers, sports voucers, money off vouchers ? sir sir sir , no sir put down the bread stick ......

How will you be paying ? cash ? oh dear thats a little difficult ive not been trained how to count ! .. how about card ? okay good ?

would you like cash back ? do you have vouchers ? did i mention the store card ? ...

okay do you know your pin, good ? could you enter the card pin note this fixed openly visible pin taking device enables the whole world to see you pin number ( please ignore the cctv trained to the overhead view of this till , yes it can see you pin also ! ). okay sir thanks for your pin... have a nice day ?

[end]

You know what I really want from a shopping experience ?

I go in , i put the items in the cart, i unpack, pack and pay and just leave ... no questions, no blaring adverts no constant changing of locations and product layout and no annoying after purchase snail mail spam ......

Could those stores possibly save on the bottom line if instead of finding new ways to get between the customers and the purchase they just let you buy and go ?

okay rant over, nothing to see here , move along now !

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[Linker3000]

Well, the experience in my local Tescos (plural - there are two!) is not as adventurous as that but I know the feeling.

Once upon a time I inherited an iPAQ 3970 PDA and I downloaded a shopping list app for it but the reality doesn't lead up to the expectation - for one, it's hard to push a trolley AND hold a PDA - at least a piece of paper curves round the trolley handle as you push - you daren't put the PDA in the trolly or on teh child seat unless someone grabs it (paranoid? me?), so you effectively become a one-handed shopper.

Having an organiser built in to a trolley would remove these issues, but quite frankly I can't see it being easier than having a sheet of A4 pinned to the board in the kitchen and writing on it the things you need, arranged by group (ie: veg, meats, fruit, dairy etc.) and then taking it with you - this new high-tech alternative would appear the just add more steps to the process - ie: write down what you need THEN transcribe the list online, or go online every time you want to add something to your shopping list.

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[iBod]

Tesco's online service is excellent though.

Who go through all the hassle of going to the store when you can have it delivered next day, 7 days a week?

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[BenjyD]

The tescos online ordering service is excellent: there's clearly been a lot of thought put into the user interface, it keeps your basket contents if you accidentally close the browser window. Far superior to any other online service: waitrose, for example, give online customers all the broken biscuits and nearly-out-of-date meat.

Given a choice between the time and hassle of going to the store and ordering on my laptop from the sofa while watching TV, I know which I prefer.

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[iBod]

Yes, I can't fault it.

Tried Waitrose and Sainsbury but they were crap, both in terms of user interface and the delivered goods (as you say, close to sell-by-date, beaten up vegetables etc).

The Tesco subsitutions are sometimes quite 'interesting' though, and occasionally you get mad items you didn't order or pay for like 2Kg of Tesco Economy mushrooms - 2Kg! I made a load of mushroom soup and froze it.

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[98jonesd]

Tesco, not Tescos....
Grrrrrr, like yanks saying "Legos" instead of Lego...
Tesco do not store your PIN number, the cashier should only ask once if you have a clubcard, and if you dont, they ask if you would like a clubcard.
You could always try shooping from tesco.com, or just go to Sainsburys if you dont like the (IMO high level of) customer service from the UK's most popular supermarket.

rant over.

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[Christopheles]

You could always try shooping from tesco.com, or just go to Sainsburys if you dont like the (IMO high level of) customer service from the UK's most popular supermarket.

Shooping? Maybe we're talking about different things here...

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[Christopheles]

Hofer is where it's at.

Not sure if they have these things in places that aren't Austria, but you get a cart, get in the (regrettably sometimes long) line, the cash register person says 'Gruß Gott' and the items whiz by on the way back into your shopping cart! Apparently they can even work on the next customer while the first is scanning their credit card.

Billa is only slightly worse because they have that "Billa Heute, das Beste für mich!" ad that plays over the intercom.

And to boot, Hofer's got basically the cheapest prices on goods that I've seen in Vienna.

Re:The Old New Shopping experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, You were in my store yesterday weren't you?

I'm not a thief!

[Nuffsaid]

I didn't try to steal all that stuff! It's all Bill Gates fault!

Hey, that might even work... :-)

HACK ME, HACK ME, I RUN WINCE!

[lkcl]

Free fooooood!

Re:HACK ME, HACK ME, I RUN WINCE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please go kill yourself you pathetic cretin.

oh great

[Anonymous Coward]

Now even my shopping cart can crash

Wonky Wheel

[Anonymous Coward]

i didn't know they were planing to implament the wonky wheel in software.

iwd

what about jobs for teens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

i mean .. self checkout is nothing than trying
to cut jobs.. what will our teenagers do if not
work at cash registers , fill bags etc ?
teens need jobs ! self checkout puts them out
of theirs.

UK had these, then got rid of them...

[McCall]

We had these in supermarkets about 7 or 8 years ago, you scanned each item as you put it in your shopping cart. You could see what you had bought and you could keep track of your total bill. This could easily be brought up to date using RFID etc.

At the end of the shopping trip you re-docked your scanner in a bank, which printed out a ticket wich you paid for.

They were pulled after about 3 years of use, I don't know why, my guess is when people keep track of their shopping bill they buy less per trip - I know I did.

Re:UK had these, then got rid of them...

[Anonymous Coward]

My local waitrose still has this system and has had it for quite a long time now. Very useful, you just scan then pay at a machine when you're finished.

Re:UK had these, then got rid of them...

[Ambient Sheep]

Waitrose (as the AC above me said) still has them.

Good call as to the probable reason for removing them, though, hadn't thought of that.

Never seen them before...

[Otto]

I've been all over the country, and this is the first I've heard of these.

Self-checkout lines are nothing new. If that's what you're talking about, those are everywhere.

But the article is talking about a device mounted on the cart with a barcode scanner. You scan the items as you add them to the cart and get a running total, as well as not having to actually wait in line to check out at the front of the store. You've already scanned everything, so it just uploads that to the register and charges you for it.

These are new, as far as I know. If they have them in SC, then you're the only ones to have them.

Re:Never seen them before...

[ptbarnett]

These are new, as far as I know. If they have them in SC, then you're the only ones to have them.

Nope. We have them here in Texas, at Albertson's:

http://www.albertsons.com/shopNscan

The link doesn't work at the moment (it returns a server error), but you can see the "Shop and Scan" link on this page:

http://www.albertsons.com/shared/plan/default.asp

We've had them for 6 months to a year.

Re:Never seen them before...

[Ambient Sheep]

> Self-checkout lines are nothing new. If that's what you're talking about, those are everywhere.
>
> But the article is talking about a device mounted on the cart with a barcode scanner. You scan the items as you add them to the cart...

Yup, Waitrose in the UK has had this for some time now. From their website:

Quick Pay / Quick Check
Quick Check is our scan as you shop service.
Using a handheld scanner, you scan each item as you take it from the shelves. We supply you with special reusable bags, so you can pack as you go. When you have finished shopping, all that is left to do is pay at the Quick Check till, without having to unpack and re-pack your shopping...

You do have to have their account card to do it though.

Please confirm

[Woefdram]

"The sixpack you just put into the cart, was not on your list. Are you sure? (Y/N)"

Stop shopping there.

[Otto]

You know what I really want from a shopping experience ?

I go in , i put the items in the cart, i unpack, pack and pay and just leave ... no questions, no blaring adverts no constant changing of locations and product layout and no annoying after purchase snail mail spam ......

Come to the US. We'll tolerate a lot of shit around here, but being hassled in the grocery store isn't really one of them.

Seriously, if a grocery store asked me all the stuff you're talking about, I'd walk away and leave my stuff lying there for them to deal with.

Best Buy (electronics warehouse type of store in the US) has been trying to pull that sort of thing lately. First they ask if you want to use the Best Buy card. Then they ask if you want AOL CD's or Earthlink or some damn thing like that. Last time I went they asked me if I wanted to subscribe to free magazines. I have not gone back and will not go back until they stop that sort of thing. I mean, hell, I can buy the stuff off the internet for as cheap as that, with none of the hassle.

Grocery stores are very reluctant to do that sort of thing around here. It's only been a couple years or so since self-checkout lines were introduced more or less nationwide in every store, and those have been around for ages. It'll be at least another 3-4 years or so before everybody has their own type of credit card, and hopefully we'll have internet grocery ordering really working right by then and can stop going grocery shopping as well.

Except for California. They're as bad as you state your experience is, except they have valet parking. So just avoid California. :)

Freezers

[Otto]

The vast majority of those freezers you see in stores are standalone units, which do exhaust the waste heat into the store itself. The ones on the back wall, in the meat sections, sometimes do indeed shove the heat outside somehow, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Re:Freezers

[modecx]

That's been my experience as well... I'm just remembering in the store that I frequent that they've got drains for condensation at all of the fridges that are on the aisles, my assumption because of this was that they were standalone, with compressors for each one, and without vents to vent the exhaust to the outside.

They recently went to the closed door system for those, but they were open freezers/fridges for years and years. My guess is that they also cut the concrete for some room for vents because they had the whole place closed for a couple of weeks. With the amount of energy they use it would make sense to me that they would try to make it as efficient as possible. It would probably pay for itself within a year or two.

J00s will be 0wn3d

[kurt555gs]

All your Orange juice belongs to us

LOL

UK Supermarkets Had This Ages Ago.

[AlastairMurray]

Several years back several supermarkets close to me (in the UK) had a similiar facility to this, you picked up a handheld barcode scanner and scanned everything you put in your trolley. Then when you went to a checkout to pay, the first few times they would still put your items through a till to check you scanned everything correctly and after that these checks were performed at random (or more often if you consistently made mistakes - yes, you needed to have a shop loyalty card to use these machines so they could keep track of your accuracy, and of course your shopping habits).

However, all the supermarkets seemed to drop these, I don't think it actually made shopping any faster or easier in the end. And it was quite annoying if you thought you were seconds away from leaving to have to have your whole trolley rescanned.

Re:UK Supermarkets Had This Ages Ago.

[iBod]

Also there is the matter of personal service.

It's their job to scan and checkout the items in your basket, not yours.

I want to be served by a real person, but the supermarkets just want to save the salary they'd have to pay that person.

I know many checkout girls are not that communicative, but I do actually like interacting with other humans. Do we want a world where we only interact with machines in every situation?

Reboot

[Bender Unit 22]

If it the same OS as on my IPAQ (think it is called mobile 2003 se) then it would be far to unstable for use in a place like that. My IPAQ often freezes or gets very slow, I think I have to use the soft reset button at least once pr week. And while that might be fine for a personal device(pacemaker excluded), I don't think it would cut it in a enviroment where you can't expect the user to have any knowledge about these things.

Nope. Its the new paradigm.

[crovira]

If there's any way to get more information out of you they will; even at the cost of delaying you or even losing you as a customer forever.

You're buying worthless stuff annyway. Why should they care about you?

They never believe that you could go anywhere else anyway. They never believe in giving you any choice (not about product but about their own processes.)

CRM is less about the customer or the relationship than it is about the management. And if that takes too long, too friggin' bad.

"And have a nice day."

You're good until the sonofabitch crashes

[Anonymous Coward]

Or gets hacked. Or Walmart starts intercepting your grocery list, and sending you junk mail based on it.

This would be a marketeering utopia.

Re:Yes, but..

[Koiu Lpoi]

Oh, I got it. It was dumb as hell, and I ain't laughing, but I got it.

Not what that's for

[Anonymous Coward]

Beverage coolers are not designed to be run like that. Your compressor will run continuously, and with all the extra moisture coming in from the outside, it'll ice up and become even less efficient.

You'd be better off closing the fridge and turning on the AC.

Re:Not what that's for

[Karma Farmer]

Beverage coolers are not designed to be run like that.

Err, yeah. I suspect that the coolers without doors are designed to be run without doors. And the compressors and condensors are usually on the store's roof; I'm not sure what kind of moisture you think is "coming in from outside."

You'd be better off closing the fridge and turning on the AC.

Thanks; I'll let the HVAC engineers give the cost analysis.

so why shop at an evil multinational? slow food!

[fantomas]

shop local, get to know the storekeeper, talk about Manchester United's chance this weekend (or whatever you're into) and get him to order the stuff you like. You choose to give money to Tescos, you get what they give you. Consume and obey! (or you could check out the slow food movement instead).

rant over. Me, I buy my hand made cakes from the Women's Institute stall in the community centre next door to Tescos.... I can even order my favourite cake a week in advance :-)

Virus buys Viagra

[Anonymous Coward]

I can imagine the headlines saying "New virus buys Viagra for you in your local store while telling you to enlarge your pennis."

Loyalty Card Data

[Anonymous Coward]

Who continues to invest in these 'throwaway' ideas anyway?

It seems to me a bit easier for your cell phone to tap into your local supermarket loyalty card data, including shopping list management features, than logistical and physical limitations of maintaining a 'smarter' shopping cart. If anything, stick a cell phone holder on a cart, not a computer.

Weight Syste

[kd5ujz]

Some may say this is dumb, but some stores like it, as the weight based system I have seen used ( walmart, HEB) help out with fraud. There are people putting home made UPCs on products, and the casheir does not catch it. With this system, each UPC has a weight in the database, if the weigt of the bag is off, it flags the station, and draws attention to you. First time I used one, I had a product that would notring up right. They opened the product ( dvd player) and it was not the model, not even the right brand. Someone swapped a cheper APEX for a Sanyo.

Re:Weight Syste

[kd5ujz]

Damn, forgot to add the best guess the service manager had was that whoever swapped them, bought the sanyo, took it home, and brought back their apex for a refund.

Those stupid U-Scan machines ALWAYS crash on me

[Anonymous Coward]

... and now I know why, since they run Windows CE. Seriously, every time I try one, some systems guy has to work on it. Then again, I tend to have that magic touch. :) I gave up on using U-Scans many years ago. Even my sister crashes them.

Great!

[Master of Transhuman]

Now the homeless people can have something to tally their stuff with!