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Toshiba's One-Minute-Recharge Li-ion Batteries
TheGuano writes "No idea if this is related to Altair's six-minute-charge Li-ions,, but Toshiba has just announced a similar Li-ion that recharges to 80% capacity in one minute, while losing only 1% total capacity after 1000 cycles. It's set to debut in 2006 for use in hybrid cars (my current Toshiba Satellite doesn't get very far on battery power, but it's a beautiful shade of blue), but 'should' make its way to other, hopefully smaller devices eventually."
I hope the battery has a better lifetime too. It's been a year since I have my battery (and laptop) and now it's the opposite, one hour charge for one minute discharge...
I'm still waiting out for wireless power :-D
From the New Scientist article: From the press release by Toshiba: It would be futile for Toshiba to try to mimic Altair, since the New Scientist article also states:
women sigh round the world heavily, while dreaming of AA size waterproof versions.
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
Ok...I just charged these things for exactly one minute. Everything is working fine so fariweofaidfoiafoaif
Doesn't look like it. The Altair battery uses "nano-crystals" to vastly increase the surface area of the anode. Toshiba has come up with some kind of "nano-particle" that... absorbs more Lithium ions. Neither of these advances appear to directly contribute to capacity. They improve charging (and discharge) efficiency.
Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
I regularly run through airports leeching power briefly between flights. I would pay handsomely to recharge 80% in a minute my: Laptop, Cell Phone, Video Camera Batteries, etc.
These batteries also drain 80% in one minute!
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
There are good and bad things that come from battery technology finally making some headway:
The Good: Efficient transportation, long lasting mobile electronic devices, and of course light sabers.
The Bad: People get totally freaked out when the engine on a hybrid car shuts down as the electric kicks in. That silence is just plain wrong, the engine should stay running. Oh, that and a lot of my clients are oil companies.
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
But it mostly just a couple of wires hooked up to a car battery which we held against the battery socket.
Filled the battery in about 5 seconds, IIRC. Much faster than those "drip chargers" which took all night.
..our 6 wheeled RC cars got 10 minutes of fun per 3 hour charge. And we liked it!
How hot do these babies get?
Jesus used to be my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
Read about a way of coating particles to expose much more surface area. Three times the power and much faster charging times.
Transcend Humanity. Please.
You get used to the gas engine cutting off after a few weeks. After that, it sounds weird when you drive a twentieth century car and hear it idling at stop lights.
...that this breathes new life into electric vehicles. The real problem with them right now is that it takes hours to recharge, whereas an internal combustion vehicle can just tank up at a service station in a minute or two. If this could work with electric vehicles as well, the scene could TOTALLY change. Imagine plugging in your car at the BP station for a minute or two, and being off on your merry way. The same goes for the insignificant capacity loss over time. Cells for electric vehicles are currently REALLY expensive, and heavy. Lithium ion cells are much lighter, and you could keep them for the life of the car.
Take off every sig. For great justice.
2) High Energy Density Small and light, the new battery offers a high level of storage efficiency. The prototype battery is only 3.8mm thick, 62mm high and 35mm deep and has a capacity of 600mAh.
Given the recharge times that is an amazing amount of energy for PDAs, cameras and the like. However, if you're going to scale up that system for cars, you are going to have a hellishly dangerous amount of current flowing in order to get a charge in a minute (or time similar to a gas station) so they better figure out some good safety systems if they want to go to market with this for pure electic cars rather than the hybrids they're planning for in 2006. However, they might not need the one minute charge if they use the charge at home system the some electric car designs. You could charge to full in an hour or get enough of a charge at the supermarket or other store to make short hops without a problem.
--
Want a free iPod?
Or try a free Nintendo DS, GC, PS2, Xbox. (you only need 4 referrals)
Wired article as proof
If a Lion battery with enough Kwh to run a car can be recharged in one minute, do the lights in the entire block dim? Or after looking at the photograph, is this for a hybrid slot car?
Maybe this technology will allow the battery size to be reduced in hybrids. That would definitely cut some cost out of hybrids and make them more pocket friendly.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Lightly touch the brakes in a Prius, and the drive motor spins backwards as a generator, putting drag on the wheels and transferring the energy to the battery.
Stomp hard on the brakes in a Prius, and the battery can't absorb current fast enough to deal with the power surge. Mechanical brakes come into play. Energy that could have been recycled turns into heat in the mechanical brakes.
A super-fast charging battery could eliminate any need for mechanical brakes except as safety backups.
Im still waiting for fuel cell vehicles to become standard. If they would just make a car we would ACTUALLY use. None of these tiny little fly traps. Get me a BIG fuel cell vehicle and Ill be there in a flash.
Im sure we will use the lessons from hybrids and new battery design in the future of fuel cell vehicles, but I suspect that hybrids are only a step on the way to better cars.
Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?
My grandmother was electricuted that way, you insensitive clod!
Don't worry, no oil company is going to let some sissy electric car kick it outta business! Yeah, just like they hushed up that car that runs on water, man!
What sort of amperage would that be on a typical battery? The articles aren't specific. For laptops, I can see that the limitation would be what can be drawn by wall power.
This will go well with my 6 Minute Abs tapes.
Though I may have to throw them out if they come up with 1 Minute Abs.
Seriously though, you still have to pump in the energy you want to get out later. For a car this is a LOT of energy. I'd do the calculations if I were more clever. Without distributed power generation (think fuel cells) it may be hard to get that much juice in one spot without frying someone.
You'd have to bump up the voltage to keep the wires from being too thick to be managed by a single person. Then you have to worry about shocks (rain anyone?) and fumes (presumably there would be filling stations in/near gas pumps for legacy support). Also, some batteries vent hydrogen. not sure if these do though.
this sig has been rated E for Everyone.
If you can put the same power into your battery in one minute that your laptop sucks out in two hours, it follows that, for that one minute, your battery sucks 120x the power. So, if your laptop uses 100W or power, you need 12 kW for a minute to recharge it. It's going to take a special circuit to deliver that power (100 amps at 120V).
How does one charge a ev in 1 minute? I mean the EV1's lead-acid pack is (16.3 kW-hr). So 80% of that is 13.04kw-hr. So what is this magical charger that can do 782.4kw for one min? Its gona be nice sucking 3556 amps from the 220 line.
but it's a beautiful shade of blue
Shouldn't you be driving a VW Bug?
Nanoparticles... They aren't using the battery activator from previous slashdo story? Batterylife Activator Reviewed
Imagine how much quieter cities are going to be at rush hour once a significant fraction of cars are hybrids.
I can see this being a Good Thing, and 1% over 1000 cycles doesn't seem too bad. If it only takes 1 minute to quickcharge though, doesn't that mean that people will be charging more?
Does this basic joke actually make anyone laugh anymore?
Why not just make a 5-minute rechargeable battery?
Umm... if these batteries recharge really quickly, and discharge slowly - wouldn't it therefore be possible to use the potential energy of a moving car to charge the battery?
Et voila! A perpertual motion machine! (until the battery karks it)
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
Mod parent UP. BTW, impressive uid # bro!
Chevy just dumped all their lead acid cars. They just are never quite with it.
With that said, the hywire may be able to use this in place of a fuel cell arrangement.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
easy way around, decent speakers and a recording of your engine idling. So you have virtual engine idling. Could add Dual Shock ability to make the car rumble as if the engine is idling. But only if you buy the rights 1st :P
Automation - The Car Company Tycoon Game
It's called Radio.
That's fine, but how about my nutty idea? Imagine a service where music could be transmitted wirelessly, and you could have a receiving device even smaller than an iPod to listen to the music with. I wonder if anyone would or could ever invent something like this?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
sweet
Just say you juice up your car with 50 kWhr in 1 minute. Electricity will be gushing in at the rate of 3 MW, i.e. 4000 HP. Even with a 300V battery thats 1000 amps. Would need something more than a regular plug-pack / wall-wart I think :-0
it's just the bright side, they says it take one minute to charge 80% but did not say it take 5 minutes to charge the rest 20%
"Steve Jobs invented the world" -- Bill W. GATES
http://www.nedra.com/
The also appear to have achieved similar results: one claims 6-minute full charges, while the other states 80% charge in 1 minute, with full charging taking "only a few minutes more". Seems like it's just how you market it
I can't hear my standard Honda idle, unless I open the hood. There's no way you'd hear it from inside the cab. I've had a pedestrian complain that he couldn't hear me coming up behind him.
>> 3.8mm thick, 62mm high and 35mm deep This would essentially fit in my iPod (or at least, I wouldn't mind the extra thickness), and would prevent it from going to iPod Valhalla too soon... if only, if only.
tell Apple.
dude, yes this BRAND NEW technology is in use in Japan, that's it. Did you know Japan also has light sabers, oh and the removed the word gullible from the dictionary.
I mean, if the charge rate holds so that for every minute of charging, you charge 80% of the remaining capacity, that means that after about 4 minutes of charging, you will be over 99% fully charged (99.84%, specifically... if starting from 0). That's pretty respectable, really... but does anyone know if that 80% in one minute holds after the first minute?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
if you could live with 1 tenth the horse power and 1 tenth the run time then that is 20,000 watt power source to recharge.
ha! this is ludicrous. I must be making a mistake or electric automobiles are infeasible to charge quickly.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
'should'
Funny, the word should doesn't appear anywhere in article. Who do you suppose said it?
The Bad: People get totally freaked out when the engine on a hybrid car shuts down as the electric kicks in.
Yeah, kind of like IE users get freaked out the first time they use FireFox and experience browsing without pop-up ads.
I drive an '05 Prius. I love the fact that the engine cuts off so much. A small fraction of people who ride with me think it's weird at first, but they get used to it after 5 minutes. Most people think it's the coolest thing ever.
The problem wasn't that it takes hours to recharge. The problem was energy density
No, it was both. People want a car that they can take on vacation, easily refueling ever once in a while. While refueling every 50 miles isn't ideal, people would live with that if it only took a minute and was cheap. You shouldn't be sitting still for longer than that anyway for health reasons. However nobody is willing to wait hours for a recharge.
The problem was energy density: the EV1 devoted ~90% of its energy to carrying its own batteries.
90% that doesn't fit. At high speeds (60mph) most of the energy is spent on wind resistance which is function of frontal area and other such variables, none of which are affected by mass.
Even if we assume 20mph where rolling resistance is the dominate factor you are making a claim that the the entire car minus batteries weighs -84lbs! (the car specs at 3086 lbs, + 200lbs driver, 90% of that is 2970, which subtracting the driver out again comes out to negative weight!)
The best part of this is the batteries are being developed for cars. Compare this with the various high tech alloys and such that end up being available first in luxury items such as golf clubs or tennis racquets but not making it out to more fundamental products for another generation, or more. If this really starts showing up in 2006 models, it should slow the increase in gas prices within a few years, maybe a great deal if sales are good.
For Americans, would you rather have these batteries make it more quickly to your MP3 players and laptops, or have 2010 gas prices only rise to say $4.50 instead of $5.75 a gallon?
(And for most Europeans figure somewhere around EU 8 or 9 instead of EU 12, even if the Euro rises against the Dollar, as most of your governments have already agreed to discout hybred fuel costs in various ways, but a lot of the cost will still be taxes).
Indirect savings, i.e. from trucked goods costs and smaller winter spikes in heating oil prices would add substantially to that.
$1.25 a gallon difference (or likely more) will pay for lots of older model batteries for all your smaller appliances, and then some.
Who is John Cabal?
It may be better than lead-acid, so it might be ok for transportation (and differences in memory effect are important), and good charging speed is always valuable, but it doesn't seem likely that power/weight ratios are likely to come close to NiMH. It's not clear from the article what the cost comparisons are like (lead-acid is usually dirt-cheap, but the weight is a big problem for cars.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
lets suppose that we want a car with the aerodynamic profile of a honda accura to be able to achieve 60 miles per hour. this takes about 25 horsepower to overcome drag. toss in some headroom for decent acceleration and overcoming drive train and wheel friction and we'll want a tad over 30 horsepower. assume we desire ten hours of travel time for a cruise range of 600 miles. and also assume 70% electric to machanical conversion. thats roughly 445 horse-power-hours = 336 kilowatt hours or 1.21 gigajoules. if you push in this much energy in say ten minutes that requires a 2 megawatt power source. if you could live with 1 tenth the horse power and 1 tenth the run time then that is 20,000 watt power source to recharge. ha! this is chewbacca absurd. I must be making a mistake or electric automobiles are infeasible to charge quickly. this makes no sense
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
There have been numerous problems...
When i plugged the battery charger in the car, my car battery exploded and spilled acid...
When i plugged it in my usb port on my computer, the motherboard shorted out...
When i plugged the charger in my household 120v outlet, the transformer tore my outlet out of the walls.
I say we need to find a way to first distribute enough power to these cells first...
Steve Jobs main issue with a video iPod was the battery life. Doesn't appear that this will be a problem soon...
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Such a place must exist, to even out all those stories the old folks tell ya; "...uphill, both ways, in the snow!"
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Another place for this, might be storage for electricity that was generated by Alternative energy ( for most, intermittant power). In addition, depending on how cheap these batteries are in quantity, they could be used by power companies to charge at nights, and then release during the day. It MAY be cheaper than building a new set of power plants.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Yes motors and generators are essentially the same thing. However a generator is not a motor spinning backwards. A generator is a motor that is being spun by an external power source.
Connect a motor to a powersource and it will start to turn. Connect the output shaft to an input that is powered (a turbine for example), and the motor will try generate power. However the motor is still turning the same direction, it is just being driving faster than the electrical input would make it go, so it is putting out electric power.
If you only had to recharge the electric car once per day, waiting a few hours for a recharge wouldn't be that big a burden, since it could be done overnight. This would be less of a burden than stopping every 50 miles on a long trip.
Um, since electric vehicles are much heavier than conventional ICE cars, a greater proportion of the energy is expended on rolling resitance and acceleration of mass.Otherwise, why would the range of an EV1 have been only ~40 miles? If aerodynamic resistance were the principal factor, then then EV1 should have had a greater range than conventional cars, since its drag coefficient was much smaller.
You are taking a figure from ICE cars and wrongly applying it to EVs.
I never claimed any such thing. You (wrongly) inferred that my claim implied it.Cars obviously do not consistently operate at any speed (they start and stop). The EVs were touted as "commuter vehicles" which obviously won't operate consistently at 60MPH then suddenly stop for the day.
The original figure did not include the weight of what the car was carrying, which is difficult to estimate and which depends on the number of people in the car, how fat the people are, the weight of their luggage, etc.IIRC the EV1 car minus the batteries weighed only a few hundred pounds, and the car with the batteries weighed ~3100 lbs. The car was touted as a "commuter car" and therefore most of its energy was expended in acceleration of its enormous mass, and in rolling resistance. Regenerative braking only recaptures a relatively small proportion of the energy expended during acceleration.
It was popular science I think. The coating exposes more grains, which allows the faster recharging, higher amperage, and more energy.
Transcend Humanity. Please.
Toshiba announces a thin stick-on device using nanocrystals that you can use on your cell phone....
This technology, combined with the ultra-slick nano-tech offered by the undeniably reputable and innovative BatMax, we could be driving our cars for months without recharging and then only taking 1/10th of a second when we do need to juice up!
... Guys?
Right guys?
Is this wireless enough for you? http://www.lod.org/
More details about this amazing technology can be found here.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
The Bad: People get totally freaked out when the engine on a hybrid car shuts down as the electric kicks in. That silence is just plain wrong, the engine should stay running. Oh, that and a lot of my clients are oil companies.
Funny you say that.. I've never heard anyone complain that a Rolls is "too quiet" (oh and I am tired of this crap argument that people say when they rode a Rolls drunk in a wedding or something... those usually have Detroit V-8 conversions in them.. they're not really a Rolls at that point.)
And there is no magic, just very well tuned exhaust and good sound insulation and vibration dampening.
Not stolen - Toshiba *licensed* from space aliens.
Most people think it's the coolest thing ever.
Until they realize they can get a cars that has roughly the same overall gas mileage as your car that is not a hybrid and does not have the additional complexity and potential costs of the whole electric part for cheaper then you paid for your car.
Who is the person who needs to know? The person in the car .... right?
You could have an indicator light and a device that gives a quiet humm (in contrary to the sound of a gas engine) that can also change pitch due to acceleration.
A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
Who cares about the drivers? I'm excited about the coming vehicular manslaughter due to pedestrians losing their audio cues. That's going to be sweet.
It's called lightning.
Since when did Toshiba make vehicles? you'd think they could come up with a better name for a car than the "Satellite," though.
... and then they built the supercollider.
If you join one of the airline clubs for business travellers, you can use their lounge -- which have wireless internet access, and plenty of plugs to charge whatever you have. You can hang out there all day and work, netsurf, watch TV, etc., if you have a wait between flights.
Battery technology has improved an awful lot in the last decade, since the EV1 was developed. I posted about this before.
My transformers just look like a crappy semi truck. Bastard toy makers...
If you give any credence to this battery's abilities.
its 2005 can we get nothing better? 1 minute charge is fine... but what about say a battery that lasts 300 hours rather than 3? then recharging wouldnt matter much anyway. Why not batteries that could generate there own power? come on people, think of something... haveing a 5 hour charge on my laptop sucks (and this is good compared to most laptops out there).
I dont wanna wait till apple figures out a 100+ hour battery for an ipod, cant some great company figure something out... come on HP, invent. Dell, dude improve your crap. etc!
Mike
I heart the RIAA & MPAA, im sure its mutual...
MOD HIM DOWN!!! QUICKLY!!!
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i do repairs under Toshiba's Manufacturer warranty and under the extended warranty from The Big Blue and Yellow Retail Crap Emporium.
i feel it a public service to proclaim that Toshiba laptops are pieces of shit.
case in point: if you're unlucky enough to have one of the models with the metal speaker covers, A45, M35, among others...well...those speaker covers aren't grounded. Which means if you rub your feet on the carpet and then rest your palm on the speaker, the static discharges through the speaker cover and arcs to the motherboard i promise, this happens *every*single*time* you touch your laptop. if you're of the lucky variety, it will only shut down and turn back on. if you're cursed, your laptop gets Trogdor'd. I hope somebody on the design team got canned for that one.
"under-engineering" is a good word for Toshibas.
and then on the complete opposite of the Shit Spectrum is Sony. i never really knew how something could be over-engineered until i opened one of those goddamn R505's. Little pieces of metal and plastic screwed down all over the place. They're never held together with less than 6 different sizes of screws. Daughterboards for *everything*, in the spirit of "oh we'll only have to fix the one thing!". Video board. Modem. Battery input board. RJ11 jack. RJ45 jack. DC jack. Control/Power button board. LED status board. PCMCIA board. This would all be fine if any of these pieces were accessable without actually taking apart the entire fucking unit. But they're not. And if *anything* at all is wrong with it, the thing won't POST. The backlight turns on, and the black screen just stares. Taunting. Like it's saying, "HA! I'm not working. And it could be anything! But I'm not telling YOU! Have a day, bitch!" So, in order to actually diagnose the problem, I have to end up swapping all the fucking daughter boards until I finally get the Sony logo to show up on the screen. I FUCKING HATE SONY. even worse than toshiba.
free advice from someone who's seen the guts of every piece of shit out there: IBM or Emachine. IBMs are just solid. Emachines have some issues, but are very cheap and easy to fix.
but please, stay the hell away from toshiba and sony. they suck.
goodnight...
If you don't mind the extra weight, you always can use a second battery. Black and Decker had the right idea with their rechargeable batteries that worked in the screwdriver, drill, etc. Too bad they weren't very effective, hence never caught on.
I use an Apple Powerbook, and I get about 3 hours out of a charge as long as I'm not playing a DVD or anything particularly high-drain. Even better, the laptop has an internal battery that can put out enough power for a couple minutes when the laptop's asleep, even with no battery.
Basically, I can (er.. 'could hypothetically') close the lid (put to sleep), replace drained battery with a fresh one, and open it back up without even having to restart.
Personally, I seldom run out my whole battery without having power available, so extra batteries ($80-90 even on ebay, more from Apple store) aren't very economical for me.
On the other hand, if you regularly run through your whole battery cycle, I would definitely suggest getting another battery (ebay, computer show for your particular model). Not only will you have a 10-second-long 100% charge time, but on average you'll only run through about half the cycles on each battery, so they'll both last longer if you take care of them.
Partial Credit: The Engineer's Best friend
"Well, the bridge didn't fall all the way down!"
It would be safe to say, you wouldn't want to have that laptop on your lap while it's recharging!
/MC
Wasn't that supposed to be the big selling point for Li-ion battery's several years ago when they first appeared on the horizon. "No recharge memory like Ni-Cad!". :-(
Well it's clear they don't have "recharge memory". It's more like "recharge Alzheimer's", i.e. they completely forget how to recharge
You just need a really good stereo and some control logic that sends engine sounds through your stereo when you should be idling. A subwoofer so you can feel it as well is a must.
You could have an indicator light and a device that gives a quiet humm
In the Toyota Prius, the electric coolant pump hums. The digital speedometer in the dash has a READY light. Any more non-issues needed to be solved?
The truth shall set you free!
Perhaps it is different in America, but here in the UK many families have two cars and I would contend that most of those could manage just fine if one of them was an electric vehicle with a range of 100 miles and the other was a conventional petrol one.
It would be a rare day that both adults would want to drive more than 100 miles. I accept that it would happen, but if it was sufficiently unusual one could either rent a car for the day or take the train.
A few things, I think should be mentioned in general. First fast cycle times doesn't mean you have to do it that quick obviously. A lot of posts say 10 bizzion amps. Yeah we get it there are other contraints on the charging of a battery in an electrical system, with this kind of cycle time, it isn't the battery anymore which is good.
0 1.htm
Next cars. EV car, I don't think will ever be practical beyond, city ranges, and quite frankly they are silly. Yes a turbine is more efficent then a combustion engine (maybe 90% vs 65) but those 25 percent cost alot.
Fuel cycles are are basicly batteries, there biggest problem is energy density at present. Hydrogen fuel cells are a bad idea, a very very bad idea, for leakage reasons (I'm thinking of the stratosphere), an ethanol fuel cycle would seem the most doable, as we can use the same "gas" stations and such, but still density is the problem.
Next how much Lithium is there? As I remember it isn't a huge amount on this rock. If we want to put them in to very wide use that could be a problem.
Finally. The ideal car by my standards is a methanol fuel cycle one (mid size), the fuel cycle is big enough to keep you driving steady at 75 mph, and recharge in reasonable period (maybe 40kW). With a battery that can perhaps do 20 0-40s in an hour (which I think comes out to 1 kWhr).
PS: Maybe toshiba will do this too (old): http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2004_06/pr24
I used to do supercomputer stuff back in the early '90s. We were distributing large amounts (100's of amps) of 5V and 12V power throughout the machine and we wound up with bus bars (that is, solid, large, pieces of copper) for moving it around. High amperage (regardless of voltage) means you need big conductors. That little skinny wire coming out of your external power supply won't move more than a few amps. Ideally the battery would take in high voltage, low amperage for the quick charge but that's probably not realistic.
A car with a built in Theremin would be totally awesome.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
Toshiba's battery is 600mAh and can be charged to 80% in one minute.
80% of 600mAh is 480mAh
480mA during one hour translates to
480*60 mA = 28.8A during one minute.
The battery voltage is probably quite low, e.g 3V.
3V * 28.8A = 86.4 Watts.
So I have now this cool 2Ah Toshiba fast charge cell thingy. It's reloaded in one minute, thus for one minute my charger has to deploy 120 amps. Beside the usage of blank copper bars to the cell contacts, will my charger become hot ?
Cheers
El Gordo
So after 1000 cycles, it loses 1% capacity. Very nice, but these things are never linear, and manufacturers are very good at choosing their stats (as anyone who's ever read a datasheet will know). After 1050 cycles, it may have lost 1%, 2%, 20% or even more capacity. Guess I'll have to RTFA, but I doubt they give a graph of capcity vs. cycles.
But sounds interesting, none-the-less.
There are good and bad things that come from battery technology finally making some headway:
The Good: Efficient transportation,
are you nuts?
I recently bought a car that was designed in the 1980's that regularly get's more gas mileage than a honda Insight.
It's a Geo Metro with a 955cc engine. After adding low rolling resistance tires and adjusting steering camber to 0 (just like the honda) I get on average 58mpg. I have yet to see an insight with that high of an average. (I know of 5 owners of them, the insights are dirt cheap on the used market now)
Call me when they can take the fuel efficency from 1989 and add hybrid tech to get real increases in fuel economy. the Insight should be getting 70+mpg regularly if an econo-box from the 80's can get almost 60 without any real effort.
A friend of mine is looking to reduce the diameters and weight of the power steering and alternator pullies on his. he is guessing he will gain 3 hp and possibly another mpg.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
an electric perfromance car called the Tzero already has regenerative brakes with enough braking force to lock the wheels so it doesn't look like getting the charge into the battery fast enough is an issue anyway.
but even if this did no add up to 70% efficeincy, the estimate given was a reasonable estimate of the power needed. 30Hp is woefully too little to go uphill with any speed. Yet it would take a megawatt class gas station to recharge such a car within a useful amount of time for long distance travel. The point is electric cars are not for highway travel or long distance.
Your quibbling over 95% verus 70% is inane
you may have an engine that can get more miles per gallon out of a tank, but your engine is also polluting far more than the Insight.
Now she'll only have to wait for 30 seconds after we have sex for the battery in her vibrator to recharge rather than the usual few hours.
Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
When I have to drive a regular car instead of my Civic Hybrid, it always takes me a while to get used to the constant noise of the engine and the shifting of the transmission.
People get into my car and are wowed by the engine quitting at stoplights; but I've become so used to it that it seems odd if it doesn't.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
It would still take about a minute total, you'd just be charging 13 seperate batteries at once, would be the most likely design.
So the original poster is roughly accurate, 30 amps for a minute and you're good to go for 4 hours.
Dramatically reduced size of battery packs for hybrid drivetrains, like the original article says.
Why do I have this feeling that Honda and/or Toyota are already working on hybrid drivetrains using this new battery? Imagine a Honda Accord Hybrid with these new batteries--they could reduce the battery pack size enough that you regain the ability to fold down the rear seat to increase trunk space just like a "normal" Accord sedan. My guess right now is that Honda is already testing this new battery design for the hybrid version of the 8th-generation Honda Civic due this Fall.
Brought to you by the redundant nazi.
Wow. I see that they're claiming advances in Wh/l and W/l (Energy and Power volume density). What about Wh/kg and W/kg? Does this new battery have higher energy and power mass density?
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
There are apparently some emitted radiation issues to go with it.
By having that switching power supply be a separate unit and the laptop run on DC, they apparently save some testing/clearance/certification issues.
hawk, who wishes he could remember more
That's fine, but how about my nutty idea? Imagine a service where music could be transmitted wirelessly, and you could have a receiving device even smaller than an iPod to listen to the music with. I wonder if anyone would or could ever invent something like this?
It's been tried in labs. The problem with such a device is that the air can only hold so many songs, so you end up only being able to listen to about five songs total, and that's with some sort of compression that makes them sound like hell. Then of course driving under bridges tended to shred some of the songs mid-air and you would loose the song.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's a Geo Metro with a 955cc engine.
I've driven this model of car, and I cannot recommend it. It's hard to get it up to 75mph against a headwind, uphill, with 4 passengers, in North Dakota. In fact, its hard to get it up to 45. When the nearest mexican resturant is 90 miles away and I'm hungry...
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
If you're talking about cars, they're talking about hybrids, not pure electrics. I don't see the Joe Public charging his electric car from house mains for the reasons you state.
;).
With hybrids (or fuel cell cars) charging to cruise for 600 miles is just loading up with fuel at the nearest petrol/gas/energy station. One litre of petrol = about 34Mjoules. 50 litres = 1.7GJ. One litre of diesel = 38MJ. (Same figures for hydrocarbon fuel cell cars, but different for hydrogen fuel cell cars).
Where I see the quick charging of the battery is important is for regenerative braking (and for charging the battery up between "sprints").
When you brake a 1 ton vehicle from 100kph to a stop, you dissipate the kinetic energy. e.g 0.5 x 1000kg x 27.7^2 m^2/s^2 joules= 380kJ in just a few seconds of braking time.
Assuming you only need the battery to supply 30kW extra for 2 minutes for "sprints" (or silent/battery only operation). The extra kW is on top of what the hybrid diesel or fuel cell banks can produce. That's 3.6MJ of battery capacity.
A one minute recharge rate to 80% (2.88MJ) = 48kJ a second. This means the fastest you can brake without any _extra_ wastage of energy is 380/48 seconds * some fudge factor (conversion, friction etc). If fudge factor = 1 it's about 8 seconds to go from 100 to zero. By extra wastage, I mean the dissipation of energy to brake disks or resistors because the battery can't absorb energy that fast.
1 battery cell is about 8kJ. 3.6MJ is about 450 of those batteries = 6-7kg? Assuming a battery cell is 14 to 15 grams.
If you are willing to carry around 13kg of batteries, you can brake from 100kph in 4 seconds and without throwing away "overflow" energy. However how much would 13kg of batteries cost? - assuming USD5 per battery that's about USD5000.
Also: 6-13kg of batteries gives you 10-20 decelerations from 100kph worth of storage - ( after that everything probably has to be burnt off as heat). Or potential energy of about 300-700 metres of height assuming a 1000kg car - which is not that bad.
The figures are of course quite inaccurate. Just to give an idea of things. At least my idea
We'd probably use hydrocarbons if someone figures out a suitable hydrocarbons fuel cell (that lasts and produces enough power etc) and a suitable catalyst+filter (that protects the fuel cell from nasties).
Problem is it may not be that efficient to store nuclear/solar energy in hydrocarbons. Might be more efficient to store it as hydrogen.
We'll see.
Don't forget the danger posed to pedestrians. I was walking and I heard a slight noise coming from around a corner. An elderly woman came around the corner at around 15-20mph in a car that was nearly silent. I would have really heard a gas engine. If there had been any background noise, I wouldn't have heard the electric motor and I would have been right in her path. It isn't just the driver that needs to hear your engine.
I've been driving a 2002 Prius daily for three years. I don't know why your numbers don't work, but the Real World (tm) says your math is bogus.
I ran my Prius dry one time, just as an experiment. My spouse was quite horrified, but no damage seems to have resulted.
After several abortive attempts to start the engine with no fuel, it stopped trying. I had to turn the key completely off and back on again before it would make another attempt.
I was able to accelerate to 50 mph from a dead stop and travel about a mile to a gas station with no problems. Obviously, handling was not quite as peppy on the electric engine alone as it usually is (the gas engine is supposed to kick in extra horsepower as needed) but I'd say it was better than a Chevette or a Dodge Colt.
The NiMH batteries regained their normal state of charge within 20 minutes of driving, once I had refilled the gas tank and restarted.
And no, the engine did not run "all out" as some other poster suggested, when it was replenishing the batteries. It just ran at a reasonably normal idle rate regardless of whether I was stopped or not - it normally shuts off when I'm stopped ("normal" in this context meaning fully warmed up and batteries reasonably well charged).
so please mister environmentalist how does a car that uses LESS gasoline produce MORE pollution?
the only product in the enging that causes pollution is the gasoline, so by your bizzaro-world tree-hugging thinking.. using less of the pollutant causes MORE pollution.
sweet! by your logic the H2 is the cleanest vehicle on the planet!!!!!
BTW know nothing greenpeach nimrod... the SMART car that uses that EVIL disel fuel get's 60+MPG.. that thing must knock birds from the sky and cause acid rain directly behind it.
next time you try and tell us that using less is polluting more try to have some facts.
A Prius with an empty gas tank IS a "full electric car", mutton-head.
But he was talking about battery recharge rates and energy, anyway - I regret you are unable to follow the conversation, but perhaps you could purchase some children's books on the subject.
ever smelled the exhaust off a 60's car? There's a LOT of unburned gas in there. Yet the car will do 25mpg.
Now try smelling the exhaust off a modern car doing the same 25mpg... Strangely enough, it's a lot cleaner, isn't it!
incomplete combustion causes pollution.. you end up with non-water products coming out the pipe.
You're so dumb so can't even troll. Why don't you come back here when you're 16?
There's a simple solution to that: make sure people know how to cross roads, and make sure people know how to drive.
From my experience, both are sorely lacking in UK society, and it has one of the best road safety records going.
(Most people think it's the coolest thing ever) Until they realize they can get a cars that has roughly the same overall gas mileage as your car that is not a hybrid and does not have the additional complexity and potential costs of the whole electric part for cheaper then you paid for your car.
Well, that would be true in some other countries. In the United States, unfortunately, the Prius is the most efficient vehicle sold. I wish it weren't the case...