U.S. to Require Passport To Re-Enter Country

The Hobo writes "The CBC is reporting that starting in 2007, most Canadians will require a passport to cross into the United States and by 2008 Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport. The tougher new rules still allow Canadians to cross without being fingerprinted, but every person from any other country will be required to submit to fingerprinting." From the article: "Currently, Canadians and Americans are able to enter the United States with little more identification than a driver's licence or a birth certificate, though a passport has sometimes made it simpler to satisfy immigration officers at the border."

Comments

Mexico, Eh?

[Tackhead]

> Currently, Canadians and Americans are able to enter the United States with little more identification than a driver's licence or a birth certificate, though a passport has sometimes made it simpler to satisfy immigration officers at the border.

What's the big deal? Canadians and Americans still don't need passports to get home, nor do they need to worry about fingerprinting.

If you're an American without a passport, just come back through California, Mexico, and Arizona. The desert's hot, you'll pick up lots of dust, and after a few days' hiking, you'll have picked up a nice Mexican tan. Se Habla Espanol! You're in!

If you're a Canadian without a passport, remember that you're indistinguishable from the American as long as you remember to pronounce it "owwwwt" (like you stubbed your toe), instead of "oot" (like if you're going oot and aboot), and if you can pretend that Budweiser is beer for a few days. Grab a six-pack of Bud for your American friend and follow him across the desert. Then take a US domestic flight (for which no passport is required) to New York State. Go to the Six Nations Reserve and offer to haul some smokes 'n' booze in across the St. Lawrence. If it's winter, you can even walk home, eh?

Or remotely sniff the RFID off some other poor schlub and just use his passport.

Seriously, what's the big deal? Don't have a passport, go to Mexico, eh? :)

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[sachmet]

You didn't read the article, did you? "And by 2008, most Americans who visit Canada won't be able to re-enter their country without a passport." You sure *will* need a passport to come home. I don't know what will happen if you don't have it, but you can bet it won't be pleasant or speedy.

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[schon]

If you're an American without a passport, just come back through California, Mexico, and Arizona.

Yes, because these states all share a border with Canada, right?

I think you might wanna brush up on your geography a little.

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[camkind]

But can a country deny entry to one of its own citizens? I can see US customs detaining US citizens for drug/weapon/not declaring duty offences, but actually denying an American citizen the right to enter their own country?

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[WaterBreath]

Well, if you haven't got an American passport, who's to say you're an American citizen?

The idea is that they will no longer accept your claim to be an American citizen unless you have a passport. If you can produce such, you've satsified the requirement, and they've got no reason to prevent your entry.

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[rishistar]

Shopping differences in culture....

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island.

Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island.

Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards country.

Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards country.

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[SquadBoy]

Which has always been true of every piece of government issued ID.

Your point was?

All I'm saying is that all ID is worthless so it might as well be a passport as any other piece of ID. Or not. Either way if the government wants to fuck you they will.

Re:Mexico, Eh?

[ShieldW0lf]

I think his point was that they are restricting the rights of their own citizens to travel outside their borders. As in, you're only allowed to leave if we give you permission to leave. One of those things that they used to point the finger at Iraq about. One of those totalitarian things, you dig?

God damn that country scares me. Every day they look more and more like Germany in the 30s. Constant surveillance of its citizenry, living in a nice comfy womb of propaganda, secrets, secret police, imprisoning people without trial or accountability, ever increasing unification between the corporations and the goverment, the ever increasing religious rhetoric of the leadership, government rewriting science, I mean fuck. They're scary enough without having all the worlds nukes and a president that can't string his words together.

And the proud American moderators will bring this offensive post to -1 in a heartbeat.

Because passports are never wrong!

[sachmet]

Because, as we all know, passports are never forged. Ever.

I don't see how we are more "protected" than the current system.

Re:Because passports are never wrong!

[garcia]

I see it has being used when Passports are mandated to include RFID tags. By then, if the lawmakers get their way, cars will have them imbedded in tires to track their movements (of course it's all for the best interests of the USA's citizens and not to fill the coffers of local governments).

The US will then be able to track the movements of its citizens around the Interstates and across the border. It will then know when you left, when you came back, and where you went after.

It will all be a part of your little running history.

Keep RFID tags out of cars, passports, items in stores, etc.

Re:Because passports are never wrong!

[stormlead]

I never thought I'd see Free Republic cited on Slashdot. All I can say is... ping!

Re:Because passports are never wrong!

[Jedi Alec]

cars will have them imbedded in tires to track their movements

makes sense, putting it in one of the few parts most car users actually know how to change.

Re:passport?

[jdreed1024]

What if I lose it?

That could never happen to me, as my voice is my passport. Please verify me.

What's next? Interstate travel?

[Ydna]

Shouldn't be too long before interstate travel in the US requires a passport. That'll finally put an end to criminals moving to another state to hide from the law.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[kaszeta]

Shouldn't be too long before interstate travel in the US requires a passport.

Sometimes I think that this might actually happen.

Consider this: on one of my regular drives, it's not unusual for me to be pulled over, asked for identification, where I was coming from, and where I'm headed to, and if the officer doesn't like my answers (or I decline to answer), I get to wait until they've checked my ID and vehicle information over.

Seriously, having my US Passport is handy (and I'm about as honky-appearing as they come, I feel sorry for the foreign-appearing folks around here)

Where does this happen? No, this isn't the desert Southwest. This is Interstate 91 in Vermont, 100 miles from the US-Canada border.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's modded funny, but it's not really far from the truth.

Interstate travel in the US already requires full identification, logged permanently by the government -- that is, if you want to travel at a tolerable speed. Unless you're wealthy enough to afford a personal jet, you can't fly without the equivalent of showing a passport. (see freetotravel.org)

This situation is only getting worse. Even interstate buses and trains now usually require ID for ticket purchases.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[frank_adrian314159]

...on one of my regular drives, it's not unusual for me to be pulled over, asked for identification...

Well, if you'd stop driving 93 MPH this wouldn't happen as much.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[mobby_6kl]

Huh? This is an example of interstate travel passport requirement!

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[peg0cjs]

You're absolutely right! There's absolutely nothing wrong with treating your two largest customers like common criminals. After all, if the RIAA can do it, why not the government, too?

Supporting stats: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/2004/1 2/balance.html

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[peg0cjs]

Whatever happened to the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure? If I'm abiding by the law and exhibiting no suspicious behaviour, it's arguable that stopping me just to take a look-see at my ID is unreasonable.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[cayenne8]

"If you are on public roads, you should be under public scrutiny. There's no fundamental right in the Constitution to travel around anonymously. The government is well within its rights to stop those who are using the public resources for inspection."

I dunno about that...rights are not 'granted' by the constitution or bill of rights...I think it pretty much says, a right is still a right even if it is not enumerated.

So, unless there is specifically a law or amendment against something, it is a right. So, in that light, yes, rights to privacy, and to travel anonymously are a fundamental right!

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[w9ofa]

So, unless there is specifically a law or amendment against something, it is a right. So, in that light, yes, rights to privacy, and to travel anonymously are a fundamental right!

Yes, you could make that case. However, given the fact that all states require car registration, and ID checks have been deemed legal by the Supreme Court, you would have a tough time with any court case on that argument.

See: UNITED STATES v. MARTINEZ-FUERTE
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?c ourt=us&vol=428&invol=543

So, according the Supreme Court, by their interpretation of the Constitution, you do not have the right to travel around anonymously. This is because the Fourth Amendment is protection against "unreasonable" search and seizure, and a few minute stop to check ID is almost certianly not "unreasonable".

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[An Ominous Cow Erred]

EXCUSE ME, where did this attitude and why have we come to this?

I remember when I was a kid, I was always told that one of the GREAT things about my country that made us better than the evil communists was that I could travel around my country without having to show my papers, without having to prove who I was, etc.

I was told horror stories of the Soviet Union, about how to go between republics I'd have to show my papers at a checkpoint so they could track who I was and where I was going. I was told how evil this was and how I was lucky to be born in the U.S.A. where we had freedom and liberty and didn't have to show our identification in daily life.

Twenty years later and I have to show my ID whenever I travel. I guess since we don't have the Soviet Union anymore, so we don't have to be better than them.

We live in sad times.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[Johnny5000]

That's what police are supposed to do

Not in America, it isn't.

At least not unless they have a good reason to pull you over and question you.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[drew]

Unless you're wealthy enough to afford a personal jet, you can't fly without the equivalent of showing a passport. (see freetotravel.org)

Bullsh*T, my wife just did it over Christmas. Just tell them you forgot your ID, or lost it a week before. They'll still let you on the plane, you just have to spend a little longer in the security line. I did it once too. I was flying to Washington D.C. about 3 months after 9/11, and my ID fell out of my pocket on the flight out. The airline mailed it back to me, but I still had to get on the flight home. They let me on when I flashed my student ID (although I doubt I could get away with that again- Argenbright were still working security at the airport there even though they had their contract pulled some time before that, so I don't think they cared too much.)

Of course, all of this depends on what your definition of travelling at a reasonable speed is. In my experience, a trip of 500 miles doesn't take much if any longer to drive than it does to fly, once you consider you have to get to the airport, get there and hour and a half early, get a car or get picked up at your destination airport, get from the destination airport to your real destination.... By that point, you're comparing an 8 hour drive with two one hour drives, an hour and a half flight, possibly a layover, another hour and a half in the airport(s).... Flying just doesn't seem worth it if your going somewhere you can drive in a day- either way your day is mostly shot.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[karmatic]

> Do you really want to take away this potentially useful tool from law enforcement because you do not want to be inconvienced for a few minutes?

Strip searches and/or full body x-ray exams would be a potentially useful law enforcement tool for airline travel, and would only add a few minutes of inconvience. I still don't want them.

The right (not freedom, right) to travel anonymously is an important part of freedom of religion, speech, and of the press. There are times where having one's whereabouts known can place you at risk from a government which is not behaving lawfully or others (ex-spouce, stalkers, etc.) You can tell a lot about a person by where and what he does. The more power the government has over our daily lives, the more harm a corrupt politician (is that reudndant?) could cause.

Personally, I have a problem with any system that starts with an assumption of guilt. For example, I have no problem with searching a person in a public place because he was behaving in a overtly suspicious manner, or presenting a visible danger to himself or others. I do have a problem with searching everyone, on the assumption that they may be guilty.

The fact of the matter is that everyone is _always_ guilty of something, and accordingly _always_ a suspect for something or other. With our system of laws as convoluted as it is, the day you break no law is the day you don't get out of bed.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[francisew]

I wonder how this viewpoint isn't more generally expressed by the population of North America.

This continent is becoming a lot like that which we seem to want to avoid.

I wonder if there is a higher level of concern among the tech sector as compared to the general populace?

I wonder if what's next is having obligatory tracking of people. It's already happening with parolees, so when does it begin to happen with more people?

I've expressed my concern at the level of secrecy involved in portable electronics. It's alarming to me that so many devices run code which can't legally be verified to confirm that they perform *only* the tasks we expect.

What *moderate* organizations exist to combat the tricky points of where our society is going? It'd be nice to organize to try to find solutions to the serious governance problems that seem to be brewing.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[RodgerDodger]

Ironically, the highways are where you don't have to show ID.

However, the privately owned and operated air transport network is required by the US government to ask passengers to show ID. And the equally privately owned and operated rail network is likely to be required soon.

Re:What's next? Interstate travel?

[myowntrueself]

"EXCUSE ME, where did this attitude and why have we come to this?"

Because, as George Bush pointed out not long after the Sept 11 2001 attacks, the terrorists have won.

I quote from memory;

"If the terrorists can make us change our way of life then they will have won".

Thanks for stating the obvious, George, but the game is obviously over.

I remember when..

[neoform]

i was able to cross the border just by telling the customs agent where i was going and for how long..

Re:I remember when..

[panda]

Yes, and so do I.

I once went to Canada with three Japanese students who were studying in America. When we got to the Canadian border control, I went inside the office with them in case they had linguistic problems. The official there looked at each of their passports, looked at their visas for the U.S., then stamped that they'd entered Canada.

He looked to me with his hand out as if expecting another passport. I simply answered, "I'm a citizen." He smiled and let us through.

The Americans did check my driver's license on the way back, though.

'Course, this was 15 years ago.....

Re:I remember when..

[Fizzog]

15 years ago I was travelling around the US, having entered on a Visa Waiver with my British Passport.

I was up near Canada and decided to go and visit Toronto. So I drove across some bridge (with US Immigration at one end and Canadian Immigration at the other) and rocked up to the office.

I gave the guy my Passport which he checked over and duly stamped. He then tells me: 'You know you can't get back into the USA now, right?'

Apparently there is/was some very peculiar rule whereby if you leave the USA via a different means than you entered (eg. I flew into the USA but exited by car) then your Visa was no longer valid for USA entry.

After a brief panic attack on my part the Canadian Immigration guy called up the Yanks at the other end of the bridge and they discussed it for a few minutes. The Yanks said it should be okay to get back in, which I eventually did at Niagra Falls. The Yank there looked at the Passport and Visa and just waved me through.

I just can't believe the Canadian Immigration guy stamped my Passport and *then* told me the consequences of him doing that.

what?

[zerkon]

no more driving across the peace bridge to get plastered between the fragile ages of 19 and 21? I mean I could but I'd probly forget where I put my passport...


aww who cares by then I'll be 21 anyway

Re:what?

[tomhudson]

... and the under-age drinking starts at 14-15 ...

returning americans

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport Damn, does that mean we're stuck with them then?

Re:returning americans

[bbc]

"Damn, does that mean we're stuck with them then?"

There's always the catapult.

Say goodbye

[Dark Coder]

"Goodbye, my Canadian friends."

"Goodbye, those funky round flat bacon, hockey teams.."

"Goodbye, to those maple leaf brothers."

The door will go from wide-open to slightly ajar....

(sigh)

Re:Say goodbye

[neoform]

it's sad but true, the Bush administration is alienating canada like no other administration in US history..

from the beef ban to the tarifs on soft wood, now tightening the border only makes canadians not want to vacation in the US.. or for that matter have anything to do with americans.. which is a shame really.

Re:Say goodbye

[Anonymous Coward]

Canadians aren't the only ones they're alienating. I flew over to the US from an EU state on Sunday for a 2 week business trip and had to get my fingers scanned and a photo taken on entry into the country. I'm really very unhappy about being treated this way, and I'm sure everyone I was queueing with felt the same.

America has ceased to be a country that others might aspire to. Other countries have experienced terrorism for many decades without becoming so draconian, so it's funny that the US, the supposed land of the free, overreacted so dramatically.

It's a crying shame really...

Re:Say goodbye

[88NoSoup4U88]

it's sad but true, the Bush administration is alienating Canada like no other administration in US history..

Replace 'Canada' with 'The World' and you're still quite on mark.

Re:Say goodbye

[sasha328]

The US no longer has provisions for TRANSIT either. For those who don't know TRANSIT means you only stop in a certain country because you need to change planes. You actually have no intention of visiting that country, just passing through. This usually means you have to stay at the airport.
Well, the US doesn't have this provision. You land at the airport, you HAVE to go through customs and check out your baggage. This takes a lot of time, and last trip I made (october 2003) made me miss my connecting flights because my travel agent didn't factor this into the equation.
So now, when I want to go to Canada, instead of taking the shortest route (a stop over in Hawaii or LA), I have to go via North Asia somewhere. Very disappointing. Also, like the previous poster, I don't want anyone to have my finger prints or photos taken.

how hard would it be eh?

[b17bmbr]

to figure out eh who is a canadian eh? im mean eh, it's aboot national secoority eh. so, if it makes the US safer, eh, then it should be okay eh.

Re:how hard would it be eh?

[nacturation]

Oh... my... god, y'all!!! That is like, *SO* totally Canadian shizzle my come back now, yuh heahr?

Drivers License? Used to be freer than that

[CrazyTalk]

I grew up in Buffalo, NY so going back and forth to Canada was as regular an occurence as going to the mall. Only once was I asked for any kind of ID whatsoever, and that was because I was with a British citizen. Usually they would just ask you "Citizen of what country" and if you said "USA" they would wave you in.

yet another reason

[crabpeople]

to NOT travel to the USA

come to canada instead - all of the beauty - none of the ph34r

Re:yet another reason

[Anonymous Coward]

As if its not blatantly obvious, but to appease your request..

Most people, upon widely agreed interpretation of the facts, agree that millions of jews and many numerous others died in what is termed the Holocaust during World War II by Adolf Hitler's Third Reich in Germany.

Ernst Zundel expressed views contrary to these popularly accepted historical views and as such has been jailed under the pretense that he is a threat to national security.

Do I agree with Ernst? Hell no! However, I still support his right to express his views as long as his views do not turn into actions of violence.

Not really a 'rights' issue

[Staplerh]

The CBC is reporting that starting in 2007, most Canadians will require a passport to cross into the United States and by 2008 Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport. The tougher new rules still allow Canadians to cross without being fingerprinted, but every person from any other country will be required to submit to fingerprinting.

Now, it's my understanding that a sovereign country can control their borders in any way they see fit. Perhaps there's some sort of rights argument to be made about the americans who need a passport to re-enter their country, although it doesn't seem like a major issue, but Canadians.. heck, I'm a Canadian, and it doesn't really effect our rights. America can do whatever they want with their borders to non-citizens. If they don't want to let us come in, heck, that really is their perogative.

Re:Not really a 'rights' issue

[ergo98]

Well if you see yourself as a part of a larger community, it can be construed as a rights issue. Really though it's no big deal - get a passport. The only people who will be hurt are the idiots that don't plan ahead, and then boohoo to the media about how unfair the system is.

It is telling, however, that Canada and the US, two of the most alike and intertwined countries on the planet, are moving apart, while at the same time the enormously diverse European Union acts in many ways like a single country.

Re:Not really a 'rights' issue

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that really fucking pisses me off is the fingerprinting of TRANSIT PASSENGERS PASSING THROUGH INTERNATIONAL AIRPORTS.

Really folks, get a grip. You're just an anonymous airport with a transit lounge we sit in for an hour. The only difference between transit in Hong Kong or Singapore and LAX is that LAX is full of cunts who want to fingerprint you for no good reason.

Re:Not really a 'rights' issue

[Ironsides]

but the Canadian constitution provides for the right of both exit and entry. So they cannot put barriers to entry in the way of Canadian citizens; in particular, requiring a difficult to obtain non-free document would not be constitutional.

right of both exit and entry: So they allow anyone, regardless of nationality, into the country and without checking ID?
difficult to obtain: I (in the USA) can get the form at any post office or AAA office or any of a number of places, along with the photos the require. Sounds like Canada is putting up a barrier to you getting one.
non-free document: Your dirvers license probably wasn't free either. In VA,USA I had to pay $15 for it (lasts 5 years). If I got a regular state ID that would also cost money. Besides, if you can't afford the $87 (Canadian$, not US$), you probably can't afford to go many places.

Re:Not really a 'rights' issue

[follower-fillet]

> Expect a lot of airline traffic to start avoiding US hubs as a result.

It's already happening.

--Phil.

Re:passport?

[eobanb]

Then you need to go to the American embassy, and they'll help you re-enter the country. This is true for entry into the US from almost anywhere.

The big secret

[chipmeister]

I bet they will still let people in without a passport. Only Americans would be naive enough to leave their country without one. Thus proof of citizenship!

Re:The big secret

[mencik]

Just bring your American Express card. Never leave home without it!

Re:The big secret

[Brandybuck]

You laugh now, but if Canada/Mexico doesn't check for passports leaving the US, you can rest assured that a lot of people who don't know about this will leave theirs behind.

This isn't because Americans are stupid, its because the US and Canada do not have a culture of "papers please!" We think of passports as something you need to enter another country, not something you need to get back home.

Re:The big secret

[Anonymous Coward]

You laugh now, but if Canada/Mexico doesn't check for passports leaving the US, you can rest assured that a lot of people who don't know about this will leave theirs behind.

My God, I see the plan now! Bush intends to use this technique to dump a whole bunch of stupid Americans on Canada! Fiendish...

Re:The big secret

[Tim Browse]

Being from the UK, where you just get a passport as a matter of course when travelling to other countries, so this whole thing seems weird, I'm having trouble following some of the arguments.

In particular:

This isn't because Americans are stupid, its because the US and Canada do not have a culture of "papers please!" We think of passports as something you need to enter another country, not something you need to get back home.

How does that work? If you think of a passport as something you need to enter another country, then if you need to get into the US, then you are by definition coming from another country, so you would have taken your passport when entering that other country in the first place...so you'll still have your passport when you return to try to get into the US, right? Or are people leaving the US with their passports, and leaving their passports abroad when they come back?

As that's not likely :-), I assume it's really because American people don't generally think of Canada as 'another country' like they do with other countries? I mean, it's similar, has a land border, they (mostly) speak the same language, etc.

Or am I missing some other cultural effect?

Re:The big secret

[Bob Uhl]

Back in the '80s some states didn't even have photos on their drivers' licenses. That's because there was this crazy idea that the document is supposed to license a driver, not serve as identification...

God-damned authoritarians removing every last vestige of liberty in this once-free land. Both parties are to blame; very few people actually care for freedom. Bastards.

Re:The big secret

[lahvak]

How does that work? If you think of a passport as something you need to enter another country, then if you need to get into the US, then you are by definition coming from another country, so you would have taken your passport when entering that other country in the first place...so you'll still have your passport when you return to try to get into the US, right? Or are people leaving the US with their passports, and leaving their passports abroad when they come back?

I think the point is that when you go to another country, its this other country that requires you to show your passport. Well, it so happens that Canada decided they don't really need to see a passport when you travel from the USA. So you can actually enter Canada from USA without a passport. If you know that, you will probably leave your passport at home. Canadians don't need to see it, you don't want to go to any other country, why bring it? The problem is, now you need it not to enter Canada, but to return back home.

Whew!

[SoupGuru]

With that gaping security hole closed up I can finally sleep at night knowing I'm safe from all the bad people in the world.

Re:YRO?

[stecoop]

Your Rights Offline

No, you'll have to go online to get a good fake passport.

Think of the children

[The Hobo]

I submitted the story, and forgot to include this as food for thought:

Think of a typical family of four. My own just did this. Say this family wants to go to Disneyland from Canada. As it stands, my parents were able to go with the young'ns without a problem, and none of them have passports. Tourists from Canada are a part of the US economy. Had the passports been required, it would have cost: 87 + 87 + 37 + 37, plust GST, which is a total of 265.36$, and that doesn't even include the trouble of finding a guarantor and taking passport photos which cost more than normal photos. This is on top of any other travel costs, likely for a single trip. This will most definitely deter Canadians from visiting and spending money in the US. Not to mention that passports take at least 3 weeks to get, ruling out any sudden decisions to say pick a US ski package to a Canadian one. I personally enjoy taking trips to the US, but this makes it much harder, and I'm certain this scenario will be repeated.

Re:Think of the children

[kebes]

You are correct, but your figures were assuming that the family only takes one out-of-country trip every 5 years. The real tourist money probably comes from people that travel more often. Those people (families) will have up-to-date passports anyway (even for the kids), and it won't be a matter of getting a new passport, but just bringing your current passport. Most people I know have a valid passport at all times anyway, for one reason or another.

As you say, this will decrease the number of "impulse tourists" who don't otherwise travel abroad, but I doubt this will put a serious dent in the US tourism budget. Those people will probably just deal with the longer line at the border to get the proper tourist card or whatever.

Re:Think of the children

[mbaciarello]

You're British, right?

It would seem so as you're conception of "Europe" is curiously wrong.

Most European countries and members of the EU now enjoy the beauties of the Schengen treaty, allowing free border-crossing without ID (air travel still requires ID, but it's not a matter of borders as much as a security issue, of course.)

The UK, needless to say, doesn't mingle.

Moreover, many European countries have national ID cards in addition to passports. You don't need a passport to go to your bank, nor to go to many non-EU/non-Schengen countries such as the Czech Republic, Croatia or Egypt.

Signed,

a European who only needs his passport to go to the US.

How is this "online"?

[Wubby]

Don't mean to be picky (ok, maybe I do), but how is this story about "Rights Online"? Politics maybe. I agree there may be a rights issue. Big Brother Bush wanting to ensure that we all stay adequatly Nationalist and all, but I troll...

YRO, IIRC, is "Your Rights Online". And don't say, "Your reading it online, right?" 'Cause that would be "Your Rights, Online".

Re:YRO?

[jinzumkei]

Your Rights Offline is still YRO. Yay for spelling!

War on Terror..... oops... I mean Tourism

[herbicidal maniac]

Be very very wary.... the War on Tourism will be a long hard road.... there may even be tourists living on your street. Your next door neighbor may be a tourist, report any suspicious activities. We will not stop until we have eliminated the scourge of touism from our land. They are all around you, checking out our national treasures.

The EU

[mindstrm]

The EU, and the rest of the world, should call the American's bluff on this one.. just not produce the new funky passports to appease the US.

Further, I hope Canada reciprocates and requires americans to have valid passports.

Re:The EU

[xant]

Isn't that kind of silly? The American already needs a passport to get back into his country. Take that, you people who are going into Canada on a one-way trip.

"I forgot my passport day"

[aapold]

Sounds like a plan for a series of protests against this policy, if people feel strongly enough about it. Pick a day, and a time, and forget your passport. Have literature on each of your cars... (I think it would work better at land crossings where you can tie up more people)...

Used to be freer than that

[Anonymous Coward]

Used to be freer than that

Man, I've been hearing that my whole life (sigh).

Deportation

[The One and Only]

What if Canada deports me? I'm screwed!

Give Us Your Tired, Your Poor, Your Huddled Masses

[fastpage]

As long as they have proper documentation and identification. Otherwise its...

"I'm sorry sir, but your papers are not in order.."

Re:right on

[fenris_23]

How do you think our government came up with these crazy ideas?

thanks England.

Yeah, not gonna happen.

[DroopyStonx]

I'm SO sure that people living in Detroit who go over to Casino Windsor.. then to return will find themselves barred from the country without a passport.

Not gonna happen.

what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[the-build-chicken]

U.S. citizens get pretty pissed off when you try and fingerprint them as they enter another country. And more countries will follow suit with this. The principle of reciprocality is enforced by most nations on this planet....so get ready to be fingerprinted U.S. citizens...you treat guests in your country like criminals, and we'll treat you the same way if you ever come to ours...only we'll probably dick you around for 9 hours in the airport as a bit of payback.

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[fishbowl]

> Cuba...as far as I can see they've done nothing to
> the U.S. apart from choosing to be a communism
> country..

They followed an order from another country to aim armed nuclear missiles at Florida. That earned them a permanent spot on the blacklist. This is bad blood that doesn't expire. You don't aim a nuke at the East Coast and then say you're sorry.

Also, do you have any idea what lengths and what level of massacre Cuba went to while "choosing" to be a communist country? There were a LOT of people who objected to that "choice", and a LOT of them died for their trouble.

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[RatBastard]

Several issues:

1. The large "We want our homeland back but we'd never live there" contingent of ex-Cubans living in Florida have a lot of political pull.
2. We're still angry because we failed to topple them after they nationalised "our" assets down there.
3. They are the only communist government in the western hemisphere that we have not been able to topple, in direct conflict with the Monroe Doctrine.
4. They turned to the Soviet Union for aide after we gave them the cold shoulder.
5. The Cuban Missile Crisis, though most Americans don't really care abiout that one.

Mostly we're pissed off because of the whole "commies at our doorstep" thing and we're horrifically sore losers. We choose to forget that Castro came to us for aide and we turned him away.

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[geoswan]

They followed an order from another country to aim armed nuclear missiles at Florida. That earned them a permanent spot on the blacklist. This is bad blood that doesn't expire. You don't aim a nuke at the East Coast and then say you're sorry.

Fishbowl has this all backwards. He portrays the Cuban missile batteries as a hostile act, against an innocent USA. Rather it was the predictable counter to a US launched invasion. The CIA, in a case of bad intelligence analysis, hired, trained, planned and equipped a disastrous invasion of Cuba.

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[xander2032]

Oh so it was perfectly okay for us to have medium range nuclear missles in Western Europe, but when the USSR put them in Cuba it was somehow a "threat" against the US?? But our missles weren't a "threat" to the USSR?? LOL

Oh you've got to love that great American logic eh!

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[SA Stevens]

Cuba still maintains that they are Communist, and hold a considerable number of political prisoners.

(not 'political prisoners' of the rhetorical sort that the American left likes to spout about. *real* political prisoners, i.e. in Cuba someone like Jesse Jackson would be in solitary confinement)

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[SilverJets]

The American government stole ("nationalized") the property of a lot of British citizens (United Empire Loyalists) who then fled to Canada. Many of their decendants have legitimate claims on large tracts of land in your country (including much of Manhatten).

Re:what about when the shoe is on the other foot?

[will_die]

The funny thing about your statement is most other countries are far worse then the US, and the US is just protecting its borders.
Goto places in Europe and alot of asian countries and you find things like the requirement to carry your passport with you all the time, or the hotels take and sometimes keep your passport the entire time you are staying with them. The hotels photo copy the passport and it is sent to the police.

Re:Strange..

[donutello]

Since when did producing a passport become the equivalent of a cavity search?

Idiotic statements like yours lead me to believe you are uneducated and don't understand the horrors that the Soviets put their citizens through.

Re:passport?

[Anonymous Coward]

But how can you show your passport . . . if you are unable to speak?

Saw this on CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

CNN said this is being done to prevent terrorism. I have some questions. Did any of the 9/11 hijackers enter the US through Mexico or Canada? Does this appear to be another case of lawmakers and politicians trying to look "tough on terrorism" when what they are doing has little, or nothing, to do with terrorism?

Re:Phew!

[badasscat]

That'll stop Terr'rists! The 9/11 hijackers had legit ID, sheesh. More scare tactics to make you feel safe as the government takes away your freedom of movement.

Last time I travelled to Japan I was required to show my passport upon re-entering the United States. Last time I travelled to Europe (more than ten years ago!), same thing.

The deal we had with Canada was a special thing. You don't have any "right" to travel to another country and then re-enter without a passport. In fact, most countries require it - including the United States in every other case (except now with Mexico - and you can bet the DHS is looking at that now too).

This is just closing a loophole in the current immigration system. I don't see why Americans should continue to be able to get away without even owning a passport when practically every other citizen of the civilized world carries one pretty much wherever they go. There's no reason for us to be smug about our backwardness.

Kinder, Safer Nation

[Doc Ruby]

Because the assholes who planebombed NYC and DC all had passports, were known terrorists, and were connected on the record with the assholes who bombed the WTC in 1993. Mohammed Atta's passport was somehow found fluttering atop the burning steel slag of the WTC - even tougher than the 2 planes' 4 blackbox recorders, which have never been reported found. I feel safer already.

Re:Kinder, Safer Nation

[John Seminal]

Because the assholes who planebombed NYC and DC all had passports, were known terrorists, and were connected on the record with the assholes who bombed the WTC in 1993. Mohammed Atta's passport was somehow found fluttering atop the burning steel slag of the WTC - even tougher than the 2 planes' 4 blackbox recorders, which have never been reported found. I feel safer already.

And it all could have been prevented by steel cockpit doors. Something so simple, that any retard airline should have fixed right away. Instead they come out will all sorts of scare tactics. I can honestly say I am not scared of terrorists. If they come on an airplane, I am tearing the motherfucker a new asshole. No boxcutter is going to scare me. I am more worried about pilots who fly 12 hours in a row, with no sleep. I hate to say it, but maybe if those flights had a couple of people with balls, none of 9/11 would have happened. But Osama was right, he hit us where we are soft, in our decadent self-absorbed, gluttonous, sit_on_our_ass selves. The avarage American knows nothing about our foriegn policy, who we are helping, who we are bombing and killing, who we are supplying guns to. And the avarage American does not give a fuck. So fuck us for being so dumb and self absorbed. At least we have the red necks, whom government can call on in the thousands to go fight.

I think it should be very easy to travel, to have a good time. I would like to see passports done away with, people free to go anywhere they want. If we did not have a fucked up foriegn policy, the Arabs in the middle east would be loving us and wanting to be more like us. But it is hard to admire a wealthy country when they bomb your homeland. We never should have gotten involved in the middle east. The first universities in the world were all in the Middle East. The people who lived in that area welcomed Americans with open arms, wanting nothing but to enjoy our company and share a cup of tea. They did not want to change our culture, or for us to change theirs, but to enjoy our differences.

Before the first war, gas was $0.95 a gallon. Today, gas is over $2.30 a gallon. Tell me again why we are over there, because it ain't security! We need to get rid of the Isrealie lobbyists from our country, they are more of a problem than Mexicans who come here to work 6 or 7 months and go home. But once again, we got them rednecks patroling the boarder keeping us safe. And at the same time making another group of people hate us.

Will this hurt draft dodgers?

[nysus]

I have to wonder if one motivation for this change is that it might make it tougher for Americans to dodge future drafts.

Re: not really

[BitterAndDrunk]

come to canada instead - all of the beauty - none of the ph34r

It's so busy with tourists during your summer month.

We're from Microsoft and we're here to help

[Anonymous Coward]

It's no big deal really, just sign in oneline.

Trust us.

has anyone asked Canada???

[the-build-chicken]

by 2008 Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport

Has anyone asked Canada what they think about all the dickhead americans that didn't bring their passport with them being left in their country...american arrogance at it's best:

America: And if you don't bring your passport we won't let you back.

Canada: Hang aboot...don't we get a say in who get's to stay in our country and for how long?

America: Is that oil?

Canada: Oh shit

Re:has anyone asked Canada???

[T-Ranger]

Rember that Canada has almost as much frozen wasteland as does Russia. Pleanty of room for "reeducation" camps. Scratch that, this is Americans we're talking about... Pleanty of room for "education" camps.

Please!

[fm6]

Don't give the Patriot Actors any ideas!

Seriously. They've already shown they'll use whatever loopholes they can find in the Bill of Rights. Like right now, we've got several thousand people incarcerated on the territory of an unfriendly power, because it'd be illegal to incarcerate them anywhere else!

What does 1984 have to do with anything?

[theantix]

Oh nevermind, excuse me... Bin Laden is on the teevee again so it's time for our two minutes of Hate. I hear W Bush has a conference scheduled afterwards to talk about all the Peace his wars have brought, how the new anti-terrorism laws make America free, and how strong the country is are with a leader like himself.

After that, then I'll maybe have some time to listen to your lame 1984 analogies -- you paranoid nutcase.

US has already become USSR

[dearborn70]

I am Canadian citizen, and was born in a Muslim country. I daily commute to a US university. In post 9/11 , everyday I am fingerprinted and photographed and back ground check. This whole process takes around 3 hours everyday. By now i know the names of all the US border inspectors. I have come to know now that some Canadians-Americans are more white than others.

Re:passport?

[Zeebs]

I worked answering the phones for the US Consulate in Toronto for a summer, and it happens all the time. I got lots of calls fom people in just such situations. Hell up to last year anyway lots of you guys were comming into Canada without even bringing any photo ID. I mean thats just sad right? Well I digress... If you lose what ever documentation you needed to get back into the US go to the consulate. If you lost it in the US, report it missing. Very simple.

Re:YRO?

[daishin]

Isn't this more like "Your Rights Offline" than "Your Rights Online?"

Its more like "Your Rights Over a Line".

Re:Boundary Waters

[Shalda]

US/Canada is the worlds largest ungarded border. There is absolutely no way to secure it. Requiring passports to travel across it can only inconveniance the honest and law abiding. Or, as the movie "Canadian Bacon" so chillingly put it - Canadians... they walk among us.

The New Berlin Wall

[SoupIsGood Food]

This is reflecting the new political reality that the current Administration and the ruling party in congress considers left-leaning first world nations as ideological enemies to be isolated and opposed on the global stage. It's a clear sign that the US considers open access to Canada and Canadian culture as being counterproductive to their ideals in reshaping America to the Dickensian nightmare of theocracy and plutocracy.

This isn't a security issue. This is an issue of punishing America's closest allies for following a different political destiny. It's to protect Michiganders and New Hampshirites from being exposed to affordable healthcare, gay rights and decrinminalized marijuana.

Don't think it's true? Look at the ruthless, relentless and sometimes threatening and bellicose criticism of Europe by the right-wing blogosphere, professional pundits, and administration officials like Rumsfeldt. Canada is culturally closer to Europe at this point than the US... and the US will be punishing them for that at every opportunity.

It's a new Berlin wall, to discourage cultural contamination. I can think of nothing more heartbreaking.

SoupIsGood Food

Re:The New Berlin Wall

[FlyingOrca]

Canada is culturally closer to Europe at this point than the US... and the US will be punishing them for that at every opportunity.

Heh. Just wait 'til we JOIN the EU and watch their knickers twist, then. ;-)

Actually, it's a pretty good idea... unscientific sample, of course, but most of my friends support it. And the funny thing about that is that, through some weird chance, most of us were born in the States but are now either landed immigrants or Canadian citizens. All mighty glad to be here, too.

Re:The New Berlin Wall

[SoupIsGood Food]

There are definite economic advantages to open borders with friendly countries. If you don't need a passport to go from London to Latvia via France, Germany and Poland, I don't understand why you'd need one to go from Seattle to Vancouver and back again. (And if you say it's because there's no international terrorism in Europe, I'm going to laugh at you until I barf on your loafers.)

It's designed to slaughter the tourist economy of Montreal, Niagra Falls and Vancouver, and as an economic sanction against the "blue" states who do the most business with Canada - Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, Illinois, Michigan and Washington.

What used to be a pleasant weekend getaway to Niagra now requires monts of advanced planning if you don't already have a passport. Scratch that... with Bush-era budget cuts and exponential demand stemming from needing one to get into and out of Canada, it will take years to get your passport. It will only be slightly less painful than getting a greencard.

Which kills all international tourism. Which helps put up that Berlin Wall.

"So sorry about not being able to attend that conference in Stockholm, Mr. Evolutionary Biologist, but you should have planned ahead and got your passport application in to us three years ago. All this backlog from businessmen desparate to be able to get to clients north of the border, you see. Oh, and you've been mysteriously flagged as a terrorist, which will double the amount of time it takes a passport application to clear. No, we won't tell you why you were flagged or what you need to do to get un-flagged, because the law says we don't have to, you godless scum."

It's an enormous deal, and if you can't see it, it's only becuase you were lied to: it's not "just" tightening up the paperwork. It's closing the longest open border in the world, because Liberal Democracies are the enemy. We cannot be allowed to experience what a truly free nation is like after ours stops being free. With this new passport nonsense, it's =already= less free.

SoupIsGood Food

(n00b. Check my UID. :p )

Detroit/Windsor border

[aventius]

I live in Detroit and when I was younger (read: 19 & 20 years old) I used to cross the border to hit up the bars in Windsor. Before 9/11, all I needed was my license and a copy of my birth certificate. After 9/11, its nearly impossible to get across without a Passport. Your license and copy of your birth certificate will not get you across anymore. Furthermore, your license and your real birth certificate does work but the border guards will harass you. So it looks like the US is adopting the policy of the Detroit border for the rest of its crossings.

Canadians one up on us!

[gone.fishing]

Last summer we crossed in to Canada from the U.S. and back again at the Grand Portage MN crossing. Getting into Canada and back into the U.S. was a "piece of cake." The Canadian authority was a young man - maybe 21 or 22 if he was looking young for his age. He simply asked a series of questions (a couple of which were unexpected and I assume were part of the security screening process) and welcomed us to Canada and let us go.

What was interesting about that crossing was what any geek is likely to notice. As you approach the station there are cameras and lights - I'm sure that they use some recognition software and run you license plate before you ever even get close to the guard shack. Then as you pick your lane there are these posts that have a couple of convenient slots that I'm sure are also hiding cameras. The driver and the undersides of the vehicle are photographed as you slowly approach the shack.

On the return trip, the US Customs agent steps out of the shack, writes down your license plate and requests ID from you. He talks to you briefly asking a few simple questions. Didn't take more than a few seconds. But it was all manual! Clearly, at this crossing at least, the Canadians have out-spent us and out-classed us security-wise.

Really?

[isotope23]

You can't see the headlights bearing down on you eh?

Look at this

The juicy bit :

"McCain envisions erecting physical checkpoints, dubbed "screening points," near subways, airports, bus stations, train stations, federal buildings, telephone companies, Internet hubs and any other "critical infrastructure" facility deemed vulnerable to terrorist attacks. Secretary Tom Ridge would appear to be authorized to issue new federal IDs--with biometric identifiers--that Americans could be required to show at checkpoints. "

Re:Phew!

[wantedman]

As someone who lives in Michigan, this ruling does make a big difference. Canada is literally a 20 minute drive from where I live, unlike Japan.

It's not unusal to hear of someone travelling to Windser on a friday night. It's not unusual for a Canadian to shop at our stores or working next to us.

A 6 month wait is going to have a serous effect on both our economies.

Re:Strange..

[mizhi]

I call bullshit.

Discounting the longer security lines, it's no harder for US citizens to travel internationally than it was before 9/11.

And yes, I speak from experience. Hell, I renewed my passport through the mail in under 3 weeks.

Whatever

[stratjakt]

...and by 2008 Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport

This is CBC fear mongering, this is ridiculous. So long as you can prove citizenship (have ID, birth certificate, voter registration card, etc), they can't deny you entry into your own country.

As for Canadians, even though it wasnt always required, it's always been wise to take a passport to the US, and have it stamped at the border.

For instance: if you get in a fender bender in the states, and can't prove to your insurance co when you arrived there, and when you left, you may find that they simply walk away from you, because you can't prove that you (the insured driver) were in the states when the accident occurred.

Or, if you run afoul of the law, you can prove to some a-hole cop that, indeed, you haven't been in the country more than a month (which requires something more than the defacto "vacation" visa waiver).

US Immigration law assumes your guilty until you prove yourself innocent. I'm a Canadian living in the US with a Green Card, and went through all their bullshit marraige fraud act stuff (in the US, every marraige to a non-US citizen is fraudulent until you prove otherwise).

Re:Strange..

[soulsteal]

Since when did producing a passport become the equivalent of a cavity search?

Depends on where you keep your passport. Zing!

Tinfoil Hat Time

[OS24Ever]

It's still the longest undefended border in the world last I checked, and it's not like we put a big ol' fence up to keep them out or something.

I guess for me I'm thinking 'about time' vs. 'oh my god I'm violated'. I've had the honor of going to Canada twice now and I took my passport with me both times. I would take my passport anytime I leave the country, and Canada is one of those times.

I think of it being the opposite? Not that Canada is any harder/easier to forge papers in but what if Ahab the Arab is in Canada and actually goes through a border checkpoint instead of walking across a frozen river in the winter. Making them have to forge a few more papers shouldn't be that hard.

They've lost some 'favored nation' type status because of our history together, big deal. We make every other country use a passport to get in and that's not stopped the tourists, hell even getting them killed in florida doesn't stop em.

Re:Strange..

[Jonny_eh]

Please do not use an "irrational form of persuasion" on slashdot. We're too smart for that :)

Your irrational form of persuasion was in the form of "guilt by association" which involves the application of a faulty analogy.

You are implying that merely because the United States is becoming slightly stricter with identifying who enters and leaves its' county, that they are somehow turning into the next Soviet Empire.

Another example: "Canada is becoming the next Soviet Union because of the introduction of a strictly government run medicare system"

The analogies one can make are endless.

My personal opinion on this issue is that I don't care if they want my passport, I always have my passport when I leave my country, it's the sane thing to do. If the Americans want my fingerprints though, I'd think twice before going on a vacation there, but I still wouldn't call them the U.S.S.R.!

Also on the CBC: Auditor finds Cdn security weak

[spanielrage]

How fitting. It seems that our passport office is lax with security. How will this affect the US policy?

Full article: Auditor says Canada's security systems still too weak

Actually, i just spent a month in Europe

[bmajik]

It was especially telling when i spent time in former east germany, and especially east berlin.

After seeing first hand the memorial to the berlin wall, and the destruction all across east germany (like how none of it was rebuilt during the pre-unification years), i vowed that the next time i heard some fucking _IDIOT_ saying something positive about communisim/socialism, or trying to compare whats happening in the US to what transpired in eastern europe and the soviet union, id be sure and make my token attempt to set them straight.

You sir, are seriously lacking perspective.

My wife and i flew from the US to the EU and back and no cavities were searched. We brought back food items and the customs people were very pleasant and allowed our stuff with no problems. The metal detectors detected metal on my body i didn't realize existed (i.e. in my shoes).

Having crossed the border between canada and the US several times via car, i've always been alarmed at how lax the security was - even though the trunk of my car was searched on a few occasions (i tend to seem suspicious, i guess), i never felt it was unreasonable for the border patrol to try and ascertain if i had a trunk full of bodies or guns or something.

I am all for extremely strong border protections. All are welcome in the US, so long as they play by the rules, which are set and enforced by the sole discretion of the US. I wish we were putting our troops on the mexican border instead of some of the other places they're currently deployed, but thats political suicide (behaving reasonably often is)

Controlling who enters and exits the US is a good idea. You can be sure that what the US is doing - trying to do a marginal job at asking "so, who are you?" is a damn sight less invasive than shooting women in the back, which is how things were handled in some of the regimes you're comparing the US to.

Re:Actually, i just spent a month in Europe

[American AC in Paris]

After seeing first hand the memorial to the berlin wall, and the destruction all across east germany (like how none of it was rebuilt during the pre-unification years), i vowed that the next time i heard some fucking _IDIOT_ saying something positive about communisim/socialism, or trying to compare whats happening in the US to what transpired in eastern europe and the soviet union, id be sure and make my token attempt to set them straight.

I'll happily say something positive about socialism. I lived in a socialist state for a year. Health care was excellent and available to all. The rail system and mass transit were heavily subsidized by the state; they boasted the fastest trains in the world, and the mass transit was so good that I only rode in a car a handful of times while there. Public space was safe and surprisingly clean for the size of the city I lived in; you could walk through acres of parks free of charge and free of fear for your personal safety. The workweek was heavily regulated by the government; as a result, I actually got a chance to discover what it was like to actually enjoy life. Taxes were astronomically high, but the funny thing was that you didn't really mind because life was good--you could lead an immensely satisfying and fulfilling life without having to burn through mounds of money. There were problems--there always are--but on balance, they had a much better grasp of what it means to live a good life as part of a society than the typical American does.

This country was, of course, France--a socialist state through and through.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that socialism equates to Soviet-style autocracy. Socialism can and does work, when joined with the principles of a free people and the democratic process.

Re:Drivers License? Used to be freer than that

[conradp]

It also helps to be the right skin colour and accent, or at least not the "wrong" ones.

I get waved through all the time too. My cousin, on the other hand, has gotten his car ripped apart.

Exactly! Despite all the hand-wringing here, that's what this change is actually all about.

The formal rules for who can come and go haven't changed, what has changed is just the level of proof that a person has to supply in order to come into the country. Previously if a white, accent-free American went to Canada and upon returning said "I'm a citizen", he or she would be pretty much just let in. But if an arab-looking American with an accent went to Canada and upon returning said "I'm a U.S. citizen", do you think he or she would just waltz in? I doubt it. But do you think America really should let any person who says "I'm a U.S. citizen" waltz into the country with little or no proof?

This change "levels the field" by setting common, enforceable criteria for entering the country. If you have a valid U.S. passport or a foreign passport with an appropriate visa, you can come in, regardless of race, accent, or appearance. If you don't, well... I guess you'll be spending the afternoon at the U.S. consulate while they check you out more thoroughly.

P.S. Driver's licenses and birth certificates are essentially "no proof" as the former does not actually indicate citizenship or residency, the latter doesn't have a photo, neither has a standard format, and both are easy to fake.

Seems Reasonable, but isn't

[WillAffleckUW]

This seems perfectly reasonable. If you leave one gaping hole in US border patrol, like the entire northern border, then you may as well not patrol the other borders.

You do realize that the number of illegal border crossings on the southern border are 20 times larger than any on the northern border, don't you?

Want to stop illegal crossings? Make the employers go to jail.

Of course it's not

[Sycraft-fu]

My mother has had a US driver license for over 30 years. She was not, however, a US citizen for most of this time, she was a resident alien. Driver licenses are just that: licenses to operate a vehicle. They do not indicate citizenship, or even residency status.

The US lacks a citizen ID card like many nations have, so the only real document that works is a passport.

Re:Of course it's not

[WaterBreath]

That's all well and fine, but the fact is that the majority of us Americans lack a passport. Well, seeing as the entire purpose of a passport is to pass through ports (or other types of nation-borders), why shouldn't you be required to have one if you're planning on leaving the country?

The only reason we didn't previously need one for coming from Canada is because it used to be safe to assume people coming through Canada had a good reason to be here....

Then terrorists started coming in through Canada because it was so easy.

Long story short: You want to leave the country? Get a passport so we'll know you have a right to come back without further hassle.

Would bringing your birth certificate, social security card, and state ID allow you to enter, or would they make you stay in Canada for two weeks while you went through all the bureaucracy to get a passport?

No, it won't be enough anymore. Why? Because state ID's are easy to fake. Especially to someone who isn't necessarily a resident of a given state. How reliable do you think it is for someone at the border to have to check each and every ID to make sure it matches one of the 50 valid formats that we have? Personally, I'd rather have one, reliable, reasonably difficult to counterfeit, piece of evidence that's easy to recognize for what it is and easy to spot if it's fake.

Re:Of course it's not

[vicparedes]

"Then terrorists started coming in through Canada because it was so easy."

This assumption has more to do with spin doctoring and pointing fingers than actual facts. One glaring fact you've omitted is that the terrorists of 9/11 were granted student and visitor visas by none other than US Immigration. That, my friend, had nothing to do with Canada. Yet somehow the speculation that the terrorists came in through Canada got stuck in people's minds.

Re:Of course it's not

[schtum]

It's true that the majority of Americans lack a passport, but it's also true that a majority will never leave the country in their lives. Many will proudly tell you they don't need to, because they already live in the greatest place on earth.

<conspiracy rant>And of course the current administration wants to encourage that attitude. God forbid we're exposed to foreign ideas. And if this passport thing doesn't discourage you, just take a look at current exchange rates.</conspiracy rant>

To be fair, it is a huge country. You could stay safely within our borders your whole life and still be very well travelled. In reality though, the type of people who brag about never having left the country have probably never left their home state.

Re:Of course it's not

[robertjw]

How reliable do you think it is for someone at the border to have to check each and every ID...

I can't believe that checking passports is much better. After thousands a day get through shouldn't be that hard to slip a counterfit one through. Besides that, the 4,000 mile border (longest international border in the world) is probably not going to be that easy to patrol. Any terrorist can take a nice hike and be in Montana in a few hours. Looks to me like this is another excuse by the US government to make our lives more difficult, make a few bucks on issuing a bunch of passports, and push us to a more totalitarian state.

Re:Of course it's not

[GreyWolf3000]

That's all well and fine, but the fact is that the majority of us Americans lack a passport.

Umm, I'd say the numbers look a lot different when you look at Americans that actually travel internationally.

For those leaving the borders, a passport is a reasonable requirement.

Re:Of course it's not

[Mars Ultor]

I love it when Slashbots just start spouting off stuff about which thy have absolutely no clue. Where to begin....

Then terrorists started coming in through Canada because it was so easy.

Actually according to the head of Interpol, you're full of it and then some. Oh and who's this commie, UN-loving, left wing tree-hugger Nobel guy anyway? Turns out he was "a former law professor at New York University and one-time chief law enforcement officer for the U.S. Treasury Department". He must not have a clue, EH? Of course, another post already mentioned that the 9/11 terrorists had US Immigration visas, but pay no attention to that.

How reliable do you think it is for someone at the border to have to check each and every ID to make sure it matches one of the 50 valid formats that we have?

Actually, quite. If you've ever worked as a Customs/Immigration officer (which I have), you would know that border guards have access to a handly little book that gives minute details and colour pictures of every federal, provincial, territorial, and state-issued ID from North America. So it really isn't that hard to spot a fake card in practice (just ask any 18-year old Michiganian trying to come and drink in Canada with a fake ID).

Oh, I really liked this one too:

Get a passport so we'll know you have a right to come back without further hassle

Can't speak about the US here, but in Commie Canada, all citizens have the right to enter the country as they wish(see paragraph 6.1). Let me repeat - it is ILLEGAL for a Canadian citizen to be detained while entering Canada, unless there is an outstanding warrant for their arrest or they are contravening the Customs Act in some manner.

Your comments leave me to believe you were flamebaiting, but I in case you weren't, I had to take a swing at it.

Re:Of course it's not

[AJWM]

My favorite Canadian Customs/Immigration story:

At the time I was a Canadian resident ("landed immigrant"), my brother's a Canadian citizen by birth. We were driving back from Ohio, heading to cross at Detroit/Windsor. About half way there I realized I'd left my (British) passport, along with some other papers, at my girlfriends house (where we'd been visiting). I was a little nervous about crossing without it, even though the usual routine when reentering in a vehicle with Ontario plates was just "where do live" and "how long were you gone".

As it happened, we (me driving) decided to cross through the downtown tunnel, rather than the bridge (I think we just missed the turnoff). Still just a little nervous, we pulled up to the Canadian C&I booth, and I waited for the -- I hoped usual -- questions.

The agent gives us both a look, leans over, and says "got any guns?"

"Uh, what? No."

"Okay, go ahead."

And away we went.

This was about 17 years ago, I imagine it's a little different now, even if that is a very busy crossing.

Re:Of course it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy that did get caught was trying to cross, on a ferry, from Victoria BC to Port Angeles WA. And the current system did work... smart border guards figuring that this guy was dodgy... and the fact he produced a Costco Card as his "ID".

Here is a link to that story...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world /terroristwithin/chapter10.html

Fact is, the requirement of passports for Canadian and US citizens to enter either country won't make either country more secure. It'll make things easier for the border staff on both sides to do their job, but relying on ID only to sniff out potential terrorists is idiotic. And the potential economic costs will be large... ask some of the border communities how much they rely on cross-border traffic.

This is more of a PR move to make people think that they are more secure. If a terrorist wants to get into either Canada or the US, there are far better ways of doing so than try to fake a driver's license and a birth certificate to get through. Like applying for a student visa...

Re:Of course it's not

[node 3]

Then terrorists started coming in through Canada because it was so easy.

WTF? The 9/11 terrorists were documented and legally in America as Saudi nationals. They weren't here pretending to be "Americans returning home from Canada".

Re:Of course it's not

[JeremyALogan]

that sounds a lot like when I went up to Vancouver a few months ago.

I didn't have a passport and thanks to the US's wonderful mail system I didn't have my birth certificate either (something about paying for priority mail to have it take 2 WEEKS). We decided to go anyways. Worse case scenario I had wasted about 7 hours of my life.

Anyhow, we get there and they ask where we are going. We answer Vancouver. They ask why. We tell them we're visiting friends. They ask if we have a gun. We (surprised) say no. They tell us to have a nice trip.

About 3 km up the road I turn to my friend Chris and say "does that mean if we have two gunS we would have rightfully said no?" He laughs and we enjoy Canada.

Four days later and it's time to go home. We get back to the border and the US Border Guard asks for our proof of citizenship and if we have anything to declare. We answer "two liters of gin" as I hand over a drivers license and social security card and my friend hands over a passport. He doesn't even act like he cares... he fills out a little piece of paper and tells us to take it inside. We follow orders and then I realize I'm being forced through immigration. The guy inside takes my ID and runs what I can only assume was a background check. After that he spends about 4 minutes chastising me.

Long story short I got back in. I knew they'd let me in eventually... even if it ment waiting till morning when they could call the state and verify that I was, in fact, born here. What scares me is that, if I read it right, that may not be the case in a few years. What am I supposed to do if I get stuck at the border? I can't work in Canada and I can't get home.

Re:Of course it's not

[jweage]

If you take a closer look, you may notice that the expiration date is not the same as her birthday. Some states use that as a way of indicating non-US citizen.

Little border towns

[DunbarTheInept]

There's a lot of small towns near the border, on both sides with businesses have become dependant on the very easy and quick ability for people to pass back and forth across the border without the slightest hassle. I wonder if this change will dampen the economies of those small towns. Using a passport is only a small hassle, but it's a small hassle where previously there were none.

When I was a small child my family went on a car trip through the canadian rockies. The border guard was one guy in a booth not much larger than a photomat. There wasn't even a barrier gate across the road that lifted out of the way or anything like that, just a stop sign. This was the full extent of the border crossing questions:

guard (seeing family station-wagon): Hello folks, May I ask your purpose in entering Canada?
my Dad: sightseeing camping. (obvious from the car full of supplies).
guard: Are you planning on staying long?
my Dad: just two weeks.
guard: Do you have any guns or fruit? (What an odd combination of of questions)
my Dad - a bag of apples we just bought for lunch later.
guard: If you just bought them it should be okay. We're worried about the spread of fruit flies from further south but if you just bought them in washington they'll be fine.
guard: yup! Welcome to Canada. Have a wonderful trip.
my Dad - Don't you need to see some ID?
guard: I suppose if it will make you feel better.

The re-entry into the US was even more lax - The guard saw the license plates on the car were from the US, and asked, "Let's see - plates from Wisconsin - car packed for a camping trip - Coming back from a vacation I see? Okay - Welcome back, go on through..."

Sigh. Those were friendlier times.

Re:Little border towns

[optimus2861]

There's a lot of small towns near the border, on both sides with businesses have become dependant on the very easy and quick ability for people to pass back and forth across the border without the slightest hassle.

Indeed. I'm reminded of the story of a New Brunswick couple who had their mail stopped for a while. They're Canadian citizens living on Canadian soil, but the only road to their home curves through American territory. One of those sleepy little border communities; they've lived there for over 50 years. In 2003 the American customs agents started "cracking down" on the couple -- in addition to stopping their mail and their newspaper, they also refused permission for any of their family to cross the border to visit them and even threatened to arrest the man for illegally crossing the border. Story #1 Story #2.

One can only dread the kind of hassles people like that will go through now.

Re:Little border towns

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like you Canadians are pretty lucky to have a fairly 'well-behaved' border with the US.

Imagine what would happen when you had a border like the community of Baarle, where the post office determines the citizenship of a house by the country its *front door* is in. Corners of fields, streets and even houses can all be in different countries. A farmer can plough across three borders all in the same field.

Map: http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/baarle.htm
Pics: http://grenzen.150m.com/baarleGB.htm

Erm, not with drivers license.

[benow]

Drivers license is not sufficient to enter the 'States. ID must have place of birth, therefor birth certificate or passport, and they prefer passport. That nugget would have saved me a day on the bus... the man don't bend much, man.

well

[Sv-Manowar]

The tighter the grip using passports the greater the likeihood they'll get the people to eventually accept a National Identity Card so everywhere you go even inside the US can be tracked.

It just shows another clear example of the governments agenda for the future and its all about tracking obviously.

Another invasive thing now they want to be able to use the black boxes in people's car for insurance data purposes in legal cases. Most people aren't even aware that new cars have these devices built in and are recording everything.

what a farce!

[kingjosh]

If we really cared . . . there wouldn't have been a whole bunch of "Viva Bush" billboards all along the New Mexica and Arizona border crossing regions. Ever really wonder why the number of illegals entering our country has increased since Bush has been in office?

Aren't Canadians taxed enough??!

[d_jedi]

So now I'll need to get a passport - which costs $87, and must be renewed every 5 years - just to cross the border??!

Uhm.. no thanks. I think I'll just stay at home.

very clever...

[bmajik]

I however find it hard to fault the US for requiring documents that everyone else requires for entrance into their nations.

If requiring a passport for entrance in the US is inconvenient because its hard for some people to get passports from their current governments, is it fair to lay all of the blame on the US?

Re:Phew!

[necrognome]

I don't see why Americans should continue to be able to get away without even owning a passport when practically every other citizen of the civilized world carries one pretty much wherever they go. There's no reason for us to be smug about our backwardness.

The U.S. also lacks a national "identity" card and state speech controls (although with more and more statists like you, who knows...). Feel free to get the fuck out of this free country and migrate to some "paradise" of state control that's more to your liking. Perhaps Singapore or China is right for you.

Re:Seems Reasonable

[Quixote]

What gaping hole? Why would a bad guy try to enter legally from Canada, when he (and his minions) can waltz across the border from Mexico? Millions do it every year! And getting into Mexico (from a third country) is much more easier than getting into Canada.

"Reciprocity"

[mhotchin]

The CBC has an article saying that Canada will now review it's rules for americans and passport requirements: CBC Article.

From TFA:

WASHINGTON - In response to a new rule requiring most Canadians to carry passports for entry into the U.S., Public Security Minister Anne McLellan said Americans may also have to carry the document to enter the country.

"Our system has really always worked on the basis of reciprocity," McLellan said outside the House of Commons.

"And therefore we will review our requirements for American citizens and we're going to do that in collaboration with the United States.

"There's no point in either of us going off in a direction without working together to determine how best we can facilitate the flow - a free flow - and movement of low-risk individuals."

They're "restricting" our right of movement!

[xander2032]

I personally don't like this idea. Living in the Detroit area, I've gone over to the Windsor side countless times! This is going to be a major inconvenience for people on both sides of the border. Cross border shopping and entertainment are very common things! People just go on the spur of the moment. Like there's a lot of great bars in Windsor. I especially enjoyed those when I was 19! But now I see a lot of cross border activities going away. Because there's this new "tax" on border crossings. Passports aren't cheap people! I don't have one, because I can't see paying that much for one. Since the only place I go is Canada. A lot of people aren't going to bother getting one... Because not only is it expensive, it's also a pain in the ass to get one. If they do go through with this, I think they should come out with a $20 "citizenship card" or something that you can get at your local security of state. Otherwise it's just going to be a major pain in the ass for everyone and it's going to hurt the economy on both sides of the border. This has to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. I've always felt that we should have an open border with Canada. Why can't the US - Canada border be like the EU? I mean c'mon, Canada is not a third world country! I don't see what the problem is. But anyways... I'll be getting my passport soon, since I do cross the border quite often. I have a lot of friends on the Canadian side.

Apocryphal passport story

[swb]

A friend swears his brother actually saw this happen:

Friend's brother flew from Hong Kong to Sydney. Flight was delayed on the ground in HK, somewhat significantly, so everyone was kind of late. The immigration person checking passports was, in the spirit of all good bureaucrats with functionally unlimited power within their sphere of influence, taking their time and making sure to ask the predominantly caucasian, Commonwealth-origin visitors lots of annoying questions.

The man in front of my friend's brother was a British businessman (suit, etc) who was kind of put out by the slowness and the delays previously experienced. Once he got to the head of the queue, the immigration official apparently sensed this and began asking a series of questions of dubious value, including asking if the man had ever been incarcerated.

Finally at his breaking point, the man said in a fairly haughty tone, "Why? Is that still a prerequisite for entry to Australia?"

At that point the Briton was refused entry and was told he had to go back to Hong Kong.

Like I said, I have no idea if this is true (did you ever need a passport to go from Britain, to HK, to Australia?) or not, but it's kind of a funny story.

The chain of deception

[Safety Cap]

Assuming it's authentic - and BCs are retarded trivial to fake - it proves that someone was born in the US. Even ignoring counterfeiting, how do you prove that you're that person?

Exactly.

Terrorist Plan #27:

• Obtain a Birth Certificate
• Use it to get a legitimate Driver's License, and then a real US Passport
• ????
• Profi--- er, blow up something!!!! (because a Passport "proves" that you are, um, the holder of, er, I mean, a CITIZEN!!!!!)

Re:Phew!

[JimBobJoe]

You don't have any "right" to travel to another country and then re-enter without a passport.

Right...well, perhaps not. But history has been on the side of paperless travel, in particular with regards to Canada. They only began immigration checks on the US-Canada border in the 1950s (I remember reading somewhere that there were riots when this started, it was very controversial.) Since about the 1980s Congress has mandated a passport for Americans travelling from countries from outside of the Western Hemisphere. A lot of that rule still stands...I can go to just about any Carribbean country with my birth certificate, and even my home country of Costa Rica decided to cash in on the tourist dollars and allow Americans to travel there with just a birth certificate. It's possible that, if the US never required Americans to have a passport for re-entry, than neither would have the Japanese for your trips.

On a side note, apparently, the passport was created during World War I as a temporary document intended to prevent spies from crossing european borders. It was not a document viewed well...europeans were horrified by the idea that they would require documentation to go across borders. I'm amused by the bogus reasoning for its creation...it gives me a little satisfaction to know that people were as dumb then as they are now.

There are certainly people stopped from going one way or another on the US-Canadian border, but it still has not been proven that there's an aggregate security increase from documented crossing than without documented crossings. It's possible our time would be better spent doing different types of security checks than documentation checks.

Uhhhh ...

[hotspotbloc]

Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States [from Canada] without a passport.

Shut out from the US and stuck in Canada? I fail to see the downside here. I mean between the high quality beer and weed plus "Hockey Night in Canada" and "The Nature of Things" I'm thinking about retiring there. =)

Re:ID? Bullshit.

[Beardo the Bearded]

You're white, therefore you don't have any ties to terrorism.

You're male, thus there's no point in strip-searching you / checking body cavities.

Insightful or troll? It is now at the point where I can't tell either.

Fascinating

[Obfuscant]

It's fascinating to read all the comments from people who think that the US is fascist for requiring some sort of ID before letting people in.

As a US citizen, I am expected to honor the border crossing requirements of all the countries I travel to, including planning ahead for those that require a visa. I'm expected to put up with the nonsense of an Australian customs inspector who wanted to fine me for bringing Australian-produced chocolate back into Australia after a two day side-trip to New Zealand. I'm expected to leave my passport with the train conductor when I travel cross-continent in Europe (can anyone else say "identity theft"?)

So now the US wants to have visitors here produce some ID to show they belong, just like all the countries I visit have demanded from me. "Its an insult to Canadians!" Oh, please. If you don't want to come here, stay home. And if you are a US citizen who travels out of country, get a passport. Problem solved.

Why is this a big deal?

[westcoastfella]

I'm not sure why people think having to carry a passport to leave the country is a big deal. I'm Canadian, and I've never even thought of leaving the country without a passport, it is the only proof you have of where you're from and where you are legally allowed to be. People have no problem shelling out $70 every 5 years for their drivers licenses in order to drive a car, how is this different?

Even the passport office doesn't believe that! =)

[Rikardon]

True story: last year I lost my (Canadian) passport and had to get a replacement in a hurry because I was going overseas. I chose to pick the passport up at the local passport office because I could be sure to get it in ten days. Mailing it (the usual procedure) would have introduced an uncertain delay I wasn't willing to risk.

When I showed up at the passport office with my barcode receipt, the girl behind the counter scanned the barcode and then went and retrieved my passport.

And then she said: "I'll need to see some ID."

I swear, I Am Not Making This Up.

Her: "I'll need to see some ID."

Me, flabbergasted: "Er... I thought that was the id."

Her, with a warning tone in her voice: "Well, this is a travel document, but in order to release it to you I have to see some ID."

Me, getting snarky: "Well, you know, I thought you could open the passport, look at the picture, look at my face and say 'Hey, that's the guy!' You know -- like you expect border control at every other country in the world to do?"

Her, chilly as the Arctic: "That's as may be, but I'll still need to see some ID."

Me, exasperated: "All right, but what does it say that you trust the Alberta Driver's License security process more than your own?"

I still haven't gotten over that one. =)

How do you think we feel?

[HangingChad]

.. or for that matter have anything to do with americans.. which is a shame really.

Excuse me, but how do you think we feel about it? Any Americans with two neurons left to rub together to make a spark is saddened by the souring of our relationship with you. And not just you but just about every other country on the planet.

How would you like to be saddled with George Bush and have 52% of your fellows think he's just a great guy? And then try to blame you for their vote because you didn't come up with a better candidate. Try it for a while and see how it feels.

We're watching a country we love descend into ignorance, intolerance and fear.

Re: not really

[Impeesa]

It's so busy with tourists during your summer month.

All you pansies near the border can STFU. Farther north, we're lucky if summer falls on a weekend. :/

Economic losses in consequence

[Richard_J_N]

Personally, as a British citizen (and one involved in the fight against ID cards here), I resent the prospect of being fingerprinted, and treated like a common criminal, so much that I will not travel to the USA. I have nothing to hide, but I know that once fingerprints are on record, they will never be deleted, and I value my privacy. As a consequence, our family has not holidayed in the USA since, and this will cost the USA $10,000+ in lost income over a few years. Hopefully, the Democrats will change the policy back when GWB is finally kicked out.

What happened to the USA? It was a free country with ideals, and now it is becoming a tyranny.

Re:Economic losses in consequence

[cybrthng]

Guess you don't watch the news here.. we have kids taking guns from police officers to school and killing dozens of people.

We have people who tape over there mouths to protest someones dying wish

we have people who think there is such thing as "conservative" and "moderate republican" still.

We have people who think freedom is guns and freedom is fear and the really sad part is people preferr that.

I'd take a little bit of english heritage anyday over the biggotry of GWB's administration

Re:Economic losses in consequence

[cranos]

Calling Bush a Fascist does no disservice to those who suffered under Franco, Mussolini or Hitler, just because Bush has not gone to the extremese as the above mentioned dictators does not mean he is not a fascist. It just means he's not a freakin' psycho who happens to control a nation.

With a lot of the so called "Anti-Terrorist" legislation Bush and the Neo-Cons (gotta love the name) you can see an underlying thread of low level fascism, from the ability to detain without due process "For the Good Of The Nation" to the idea that America is and should be the One True Leader.

Re:Economic losses in consequence

[Richard_J_N]

Yes, but it is on the way. For example, * Guantanamo and detention without trial. * Stupid, bureaucratic "security" regulations. * Pervasive requirements for identity documents when travelling or in finance. * IP "colonisation" and the destruction of the public domain by large corporates. * Politicians who take advantage of a frightened populace. * Widespread surveillance of communications; what privacy the government does not invade is invaded by the likes of choicepoint. * Official xenophobia to the extent that even your allies are discouraged from travelling to the USA. Several of these are indeed tyrannical, to the extent that the founding fathers used that word. Incidentally, I like the USA, have visited many times before, I believe in the founding ideals of the USA (which the government seems to have abandoned), and I supported the Iraq war. Needless to say, we in Europe have many of the same problems. However, I believe that the USA has badly lost its way, and has slipped from the moral high-ground. I am saddened to see this.

Re:Economic losses in consequence

[Qrlx]

Don't be a dipshit. England has seen her share of terrorism from the IRA. Bombs rocked the streets of London for decades.

If you think Bush is a simpleton, you have (mis)underestimated him at your peril.

Then again if you think his policies, which include

- diverting bilions of public money to private corporations under the guise of social security reform (hey, it's an ownership society. It's just not owned by you)

- fingerprinting and photographing all non-citizens at the border

- sending prisoners abroad to be tortured far away from the reach of US law (to fight against those who might terrorize us)

- keeping citizens in jail indefinitely with no charges filed and no access to a lawyer (we had to destroy the Constitution in order to save it)

- alighing with military dictatorships like Pakistan (in the name of Democracy, of course)

are "reasonable" then we clearly have different views on how the United States ought to behave.

This is the first step.

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Next, you will need to produce your passport to re-enter Cincinatti from Newark.

"I don't care. It only affects those who have something to hide."

Welcome to Soviet America. Please produce your papers.

Transit visas

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is right. As an international student with an Indian passport I travel twice a year from Toronto to Bangalore which amounts to spending about $3000-$4000 becuase i always travel during peak tourist times which are summer holidays and Christmas.

Tickets from New York to Bangalore would garner savings on the order of $500-$800, but I'd rather not travel through a country that requires me to have a transit bloody visa simply becuase I'm going to be in their airport lounge for about ~3 hours between flights. Moreover having an Indian passport requires me to go through an Interview at the American Consulate in Toronto just for the Transit visa!(scheduling an interview takes about 3-4weeks during busy seasons)

It's lunacy/paranoia like this that has compelled me to avoid even holidaying in the US in the 3 years that I've been in Canada.

Thanks for speaking up

[tentimestwenty]

I'm glad you took the time to write the response you did. It is very rare to hear from Americans who dislike the direction their country has taken. Because of the massive amount of words and action from the other 52% of your fellows, it is damn near impossible not to generalize or write-off the whole country.

Nothing to see here, please move on...

[b!arg]

Actually I believe there were at least a couple of occassions that terrorists tried to enter the U.S. across the Canadian-U.S. border. Ahmed Ressam was probably the most noteworthy.

I didn't know this issue was a big deal. In fact I thought it was already a done deal. Last time I went to Canada from Seattle the border agent told me that my Driver's License was not "adequate ID" to enter Canada and I may not be able to re-enter the U.S. This was two years ago. Of course the funny thing being right after he told me this he let me go on through. Yes, it was just a warning to get people like me prepared to need to use a passport. So I got one. No big deal. I'm not going to be able to go to Europe, South America, or Asia without one anyway, why not Canada?

Re:Phew!

[tbjw]

For as long as I can remember, and I believe since the foundation of the Irish Free State, it has not been necessary for Irish or British citizens to show any identification in travelling from Ireland to Britain or back again. This is because there is completely free travel between Ireland and Britain, not just for citizens. For much, if not most, of this time, some Irish nationals constituted a potential terrorist threat to Britain, much more so than those Canadians may pose the US.

So the 'loophole' you refer to may be less of an accident and more of a common occurance between friendly countries than you believe.

Reciprocity already under review!

[mhotchin]

From the CBC.

WASHINGTON - In response to a new rule requiring most Canadians to carry passports for entry into the U.S., Public Security Minister Anne McLellan said Americans may also have to carry the document to enter Canada.

"Our system has really always worked on the basis of reciprocity," McLellan said outside the House of Commons.

"And therefore we will review our requirements for American citizens and we're going to do that in collaboration with the United States.

"There's no point in either of us going off in a direction without working together to determine how best we can facilitate the flow - a free flow - and movement of low-risk individuals."

Duck 'n Dive

[Squirrel_King]

I remember being a kid visiting Canada and walking over one of the bridges into NY State. You know, past the doughnut-munching border security guys that seemed so prevalent in those days. Anyway, I was happily scouting around in the American bush looking for stones (telling myself happily over and over that these were *American* stones I was looking at now), when my Dad saw me and almost had apoplexy.

Needless to say, 21 years later, I now have three passports and regularly travel within and outside of Europe. Things sure have changed since the "auld days". More security. More suspicion. And passports checks at EVERY airport or crossing, no matter if you're an EU citizen or not.

Y'know, part of me can't help but pine for those days when a foreign kid was able to slip into the States. The worst thing about the whole experience was that I only got offered ONE doughnut by one of the border security guards instead of two or more. If I managed to do the same things nowadays, I'm sure I'd be rectally examined, be screened for radiocative material, be slung into a dark corner somewhere while some idiotic US Senator called me a "jewvinyl turr'st" on the world media and generally wait for six months until the diplomatic shitstorm was over.

Slowly, but ever so surely, the world is turning into a more unpleasant place. Blame it on maximising shareholder value and short election cycles. Together - along with lawyers / solicitors / whatever-they-call-themselves-the-results-are-the- same - it's the unholy trinity that is ruining the world around us.

Re:The mexicans ratted out the canadians

[Anonymous Coward]

Mexicans are not happy with the tougher anti-migrating actions the US is taking against them

1) The United States government has largely been ignoring the problem of illegal immigration. There are approximately one thousand Americans in Arizona right now protesting this fact. (Note they are officially forbidden from any form of interaction with the people crossing the border, apart from medical aid and supplying food and water if needed, regardless of what Vicente Bush says. See their site.)

2) There are far more illegal immigrants from Mexico than any other country. Google for stats; I heard (on the radio) 3/4ths of 12 million illegal immigrants were Mexican.

3) I know a handful of foreigners presently in the country: One Aussie, one Brit, one Canadian, and maybe three Mexicans I know well enough to judge. The Aussie, Brit, and Canadian have been granted citizenship or residency in the United States: the Canadian by marriage, the Brit got her papers before immigrating, and I believe the Aussie is on a work visa. The other two Mexicans don't even speak enough English to qualify. I'm not even sure the third -- a good friend of mine, by the way -- is legal.

4) The good people of Mexico are by no means "less" than those of any other country. It is the fact that there are so many of them coming to America illegally that calls for greater attention.

if they can "move" to the US without proper visas why we can't.

5) Have you tried getting a visa?

6) How many Canadians do you think are in America without visas, versus how many Mexicans?


Please note my repeated use of the word "illegal". I have nothing against people of any country coming here, but I do have a problem with them staying here when they shouldn't.

If you're going to mod me down, please at least mod me "flamebait" instead of "troll". This is at least the fourth time I've tried to rewrite this post without being offensive, but it's bloody hard when you're talking about this particular subject.

No you couldn't

[Goonie]

Look, the United States is a large, climatically, geographically, and culturally diverse country, but you *cannot* be well-travelled if you've never left it. For one thing, you might discover that the French and the Germans, the right's favourite punching bags at the moment, actually do have half a clue about some things, for instance how to run mass transit services that actually work well, or how to use public space in their cities. Or how to cook decent food.

Or, for another example, take China. I've only seen a little bit of China, the bit near Hong Kong. But you get a sense of just how quickly parts of China are growing when you go there.

Re:Mod parent up, please

[DavidTC]

That's because a laws that citizens think is stupid will immediately produce a black market in getting around said laws, and even people not participating in the black market will not turn it in if they learn of it.

Witness the drug market. How many people out there that don't use drugs know someone who uses drugs? How many of you people could pretend to have enough interest in said drugs to learn enough about who they bought them from to file an anonymous tip?

Probably a good half of the population could, with almost no work at all, and the possiblity of a reward. Including many police officers. I know I could, at least three times. (That is, I know three completely different sets of drug users, who I assume do not have the same supplier as they live very far apart.)

How many people actually do that?

Almost no one.

How many people know someone who's a murderer and don't turn them in?

Almost no one. They'd have to be a real good friend or close relative, or you'd have to think the murder was justified in some way.

If it requires a valid passport to get into the US, and people commonly, for whatever reason, need to sneak in without them, there will be a black market up and down the Canadian border within a year. Everyone will know a guy who knows who to get you in touch with, exactly like drugs are now. (Well, everyone who lives near the border will know a guy, I guess. Probably not people in Florida. OTOH, people in Florida probably already know a guy who knows a guy who can get people out of Cuba.)

The only way there won't be a black market is if everyone gets passports, or they start not letting US citizens into Canada without a US passport, so no one has a problem getting back.

hah

[bmajik]

thats a funny theory...

i'm a red state resident (and by intention) and i voted to the right of the current administration (by european standards)

i just spent a month in germany and iceland, including 2 weeks of schooling in the german language.

I for the life of me cannot understand where the radical left, and those who foam at the mouth with their hatred of the US / the current admnistration come from.. i've yet to hear of a perfect politician but man, i just dont get the fuss. With this in mind, i figured i'd hear it from the horses mouth and come back to the states with some kind of new perspective on life.

Instead what i learned is that at least from the people i spoke with, the violently anti-US and anti-bush fever is fed and spun basically everywhere, and its almost more of a beleif/perspective than anything objective.

After being badgered about it for a while, I tried asking some relatives in iceland why they felt the need to tell me that they hated GWB (i never brought up poltiics, but plenty of people, upon finding i was american, told me they hated Bush, are hoping hillary clinton wins in 08, and that the US government sucks.. all totaly out of context of whatever the conversation was)

What i got was: europeans generally dislike bush for 3 reasons

1) iraq invasion
2) "he's too right wing"
3) "he's too religious"

skipping point 1, i asked about the other two.

regarding point #2, i asked if being "right wing" was intrinsically bad. it apparently isn't. then i pointed out that, compared to europe, the US _is_ right wing, and furthermore, the US was founded by people that either couldn't stand, couldn't survive, or couldn't legally continue to, put up with the bullshit of the governments of europe, so if we dont have the same exact world view, there's a reason for that. I also assured him that some in the US are vastly more "right wing" than GWB, who has really let down some of the red state voters on some issues..

on point 3, well, i asked what the objection was. apparently the president should never use "God" in a speech. Nevermind that our money has "In god we trust" written on it. Nevermind also that in Iceland, the president's house has its own private church on the grounds, and the president is expected to enter that building to pray for the country in times of danger. Or that in Germany, you've got the Christian Democratic party with a huge percentage of power. Yet the US/GWB is seen as beeing "too religious". Riiiiiiight.

I also had a very interesting discussion on the iraq war issue with them, and i wouldn't say that they had a compelling argument, although thats too much flamebait even for slashdot :)

In any case, I really liked some of the things big government and overregulation gets you (like the munich public transit system, and unrestricted autobahns... only possible with the ridiculous TUV and licensing process in germany).. but after talking with people and finding a lot more heat than light, i was glad to be returning to the US. My wife is exicted about purchasing our first family firearm, since the students we met from dublin told us over and over that they were mortified that someone in the US could have a gun in their home, and that such a person would be insane, and that they'd never even enter a _building_ with resident-owned firearms inside.. fearing for their safety.

Finally, i told the people that were frothy at the mouth about how awful the US government was, that, unlike their countries, if they disliked how the US did things, they could move here, learn english (which most europeans under the age of 40 know quite well anyhow), pay their $75 or whatever it is, vote, and do something to change it.

In any case, I look forward to going back to Germany as often as possible, if for no other reason than the Nurburgring and the unrestricted zones, but one reason i suspect i'll never live there is that getting residency/citizenship in germany is a he

Re:hah

[schtum]

Take your pick.

Have fun trying to reconcile this quote:
"It's not really a conflict, because the (Texas) law addresses different types of disputes, meaning the dispute between decision-maker and physician," he said. "The Schiavo case is a disagreement among family members."

with this fact:
"Bioethicists familiar with the Texas law said Monday that if the Schiavo case had occurred in Texas, her husband would be the legal decision-maker and, because he and her doctors agreed that she had no hope of recovery, her feeding tube would be disconnected."

And here's the punchline (if I may be so crude):
"With the permission of a judge, a Houston hospital disconnected a critically ill infant from his breathing tube last week against his mother's wishes after doctors determined that continuing life support would be futile."

There's your culture of life in a nutshell.

As a side note, there are those who believe the infant's race (black) was the reason the media (and entire Republican party) were so apathetic. I personally disagree. I don't think this story would have made front pages if he were Mexican or Asian either.

Why "Europe" doesn't like GWB.

[mobiGeek]

• The man can't do public speaking.
• He contradicts himself frequently
• He lies or is completely out to lunch about the "facts"
• ...

But of all his faults, his biggest is that he's too brash. The people who criticize him without too much reasoning often do so because they simply dislike the way that he pushes his "ideas" through.

I don't dislike him for having ideas (though I don't like the majority of them), and I don't dislike him for being strong. But I do dislike him for the way he uses his power.

I liked Clinton, though to be brutally honest, he did a terrible job on most fronts. But he had a great way of making people feel good about what he was doing (or at least said he was going to do). When he pushed his weight around, it was all behind the scenes. Heck, Clinton was a better republican than either of the Bushes when it comes to cutting government spending and reducing aid programs.

GW just doesn't have finess. Very few of the "radical right" do.

This kind of politics may play well in some parts of the US, or even during spike periods (e.g. around elections and "hot-button" issues...though often on irrelevant issues)...but it often divides that country. And for "foreigners" (like me), it often pits many who would have little-to-no opinion of "Americans" to be rather upset with them.

Once upon a time, behind the iron curtain...

[Anonymous Coward]

We used to envy the "free world", where you don't cross borders even between "allied countries", with fear.
We really hated to arrived back from the West, it used to be so much more relaxing to arrive to the West.
We truly admired, that when going to West, we did not face soldiers with machine guns, dogs, nobody searched trough our packages, and pockets.
Then after the fall of Communism, my former "native land" joined the EU. It felt almost surreal to arrive to London, UK and instead of lining up together with Canadian passport holders, I just walked in with flashing the ID card from Hungary.
It's terrifying to see how the world seems to take a 180 degree turn: the USA resembles more and more to the old, hated Communist Empire.
Even the ideology to create this new police state is all too familiar: we have to protect ourselves from the "alien" enemy, which wants to destroy us.
Even by surrendering our freedoms to the state.

Do Americans realize, that Bush's famous "who is not with us, is against us" spin in his speech after 9/11 used to be a corner stone piece of the Communist ideology?

Do Americans realize, that the Fox network sounds more and more like the Communist state propaganda "press" used to sound like?

Do Americans realize, that the economies of the former Communist states were partly destroyed by the ever increasing cost of paranoid self-defence?

Do Americans realize what they loose when they subscribe to state sponzored fear?

I doubt it. For us, raised behind the iron curtain once upon a time, all this sounds way too familiar. We would laugh of this deja vu - if we didn't know it better.