Slashdot Mirror
HP Will Offer Customized Linux in Notebooks
diegocgteleline.es writes "According with Tom's Hardware, HP is working with Ubuntu to offer a customized GNU/Linux version that works 100% - wireless, bluetooth, IrDA, IEEE1394 - with HP hardware. This offer will be restricted to Europe, Middle East and Africa. The CD includes free support through online resources as well as paid support through Canonical, the developer of Ubuntu."
no USA? :(
They really need to try and sell this to the "average old lady", who has no use for games but needs a little browser/e-mail system. Surely if they set the specs right this could compete with the mac mini (on price) and be portable.
I like muppets.
This means you hopefully get linux on your newly bought pcs. I can't wait for that day
neo2k
Ooh :)
It would seem that this could be useful in the USA as well. I wonder why they're not supporting it here? Are they in bed with Microsoft, or do they have an agreement to only use MS in the US?
1. Work with a hardware manufacture to create modify an OS that works well with there system.
2 ?????
3. Profit!
Oh wait that really does work.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Yahoooooooooooo!
First, any idea why my scroll wheel doesn't work on the referred page??? (It continues to work everywhere else, weird.)
Second, I wonder why this always starts, and is only going to be available in Europe. I know the article says:
but, this sounds like a chicken or egg, or Catch 22 scenario. How do we break that circle? Is there a way to tell HP we do want linux on a laptop? Or are we too hardy and independent a group/demographic we just insist on doing this ourselves our own way. I'd love for allRelatedly, and specifically about HP, they don't completely embrace linux yet (though I know some are going to flame me because this may be interpreted as "not about linux"). I have an HP Pavilion ZX5000 -- great little (cough) machine! I configured it dual boot with Mandrake 10.1, and paid the extra to get a Linuxant wireless driver. What a great little (cough) machine! Screen resolution 1920x1200 full color, both OS's. But, when the video connector (my diagnosis) started to loosen and my screen started to flicker I called HP for warranty repair. During the obligatory debugging phase (reboot XP, un-install, re-install video drivers, etc.) it was revealed I had a dual boot setup, and they IMMEDIATELY upon hearing I had linux on the machine refused to do the warranty repair! I escalated three times, talked to three managers and each immediately (by scanning previous call's notes) declined to do the warranty work claiming they had no assurance linux didn't damage the machine. I offered to pay for repairs should they determine in the course of fixing my machine that linux indeed was the cause. No dice.
On my fourth contact, I found a helpful person who agreed with my diagnosis, and agreed it sounded like a loose cable and agreed to do the warranty repair. She did however (bless her) advise me to remove the hard drive because upon receipt, and debugging, as soon as the technicians would see the dual boot she could not guarantee me they wouldn't immediately re-image the disk.
Bottom line, HP is dipping their toes in the linux waters, but somehow I think this community should demonstrate willingness and interest. I don't know exactly what that should be but I'm willing to participate -- any replies/suggestions -- I'm willing to try to take action.
I'm US so it seems I wont be getting one of these, but this is a good step. Here's what I'm currently looking for in a laptop.
-3 hours of "normal" usage
-nvidia graphics
-amd64 proc
-dual layer dvd burner
and then the normal goodies (high speed proc, gig of ram, bluetooth, wifi, etc).
I havent seen any laptops that had the 4 primary things I'm looking for though. Sigh.
"I have great faith in fools: Self confidence my friends call it." ~Edgar Allan Poe
available where? ebay? ok good.
www.gaian-mind.org - eco-punk/crust coop and collective | www.anarchistfederation.org - so cal anarchist federation
If the cd is available how hard can it be to offer it everywhere? It shouldn't cost them a cent more.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
Switch the desktop to KDE please.
Because I'm sure the GPL'd drivers and hardware support won't find its way into the regular Ubuntu distribution and from there into others. I mean, all that good stuff will probably be tied into proprietary HP graphics included in this system. Without the HP logo, the code will just cease to function.
On a nicer note, kudos to HP for at least putting a little effort into Linux - maybe to counteract the $100 million investment from Michael Dell into Red Hat?
What a great way for a major company to thumb it's nose at the U.S. Linux developers that help make Linux available in the first place. Yes, I do understand that the distro they are using does not originate in the U.S., but it's still a slap in the face for developers who want to buy a decent laptop and not pay the Microsoft tax.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Ubuntu probably needs lots of work (eg. power management) to run well on HP notebooks, like any distro on any particular notebook. Some problems are peculiar to HP hardware, and others are just bugs in Ubuntu packages. If the Ubuntu project pulls off a good deal with HP, as they "work together", HP will contribute to modernizing a lot of packages. As the source is open, those patches will be available to everyone. Whether or not they run HP, or even Ubuntu.
--
make install -not war
I've personnaly tried to purchase Linux (Our corporate application were running is UNIX based) on notebooks and servers from HP. I was told that they had to sell me Windows XP Home edition pre-installed for CDN$85. The extra $85 is no big deal for a large corporation, but this really irritated me.
Why? Well, this was the cheapest version of Windows that could be sold. I was informed by the sales rep that HP's contractual terms with MS required that no hardware could be sold without an operating system. The accounting involved was so onerous that HP could not be bothered to do the extra bookkeeping in North America where the Linux market was so weak.
So MS gets paid even when Linux is installed. That's just not right!
Can HP guarantee [100]% that no MS Tax will be added to the cost of these notebook systems? Is this a valid question one can ask HP sales personnel anyway?
kick ass. I think they should offer it in the U.S. too. Hope this will get some peopel fomr M$ windoze to Linux
I had only a couple adjustments to make to get Ubuntu 5.04 to have good power mgmt on my VAIO. It hibernates when I close the lid, comes back pretty fast and keeps the 802.11g (via ndiswrapper) connection intact. Seems pretty good to me.
Probably you've got click-focus on one of the adds. Highlight some text in the article and then try scrolling, and make sure you don't mouse over the adds. It's trying to scroll inside the adds instead of the page.
As for why this isn't going to come to the states, two reasons. One, you don't piss Microsoft off. Two, Americans expect, nay demand, free, year round support (preferably 24/7). I've watched many the small time outfit try and compete with the big guys, only to go under when the find out that their customer base can't understand why they can't call up the tech at home at 3am and get help installing directx 9.0a to play the latest Dear Hunter game they just bought at Walmart. It doesn't matter that OEM support is horendously bad, all that matters is that it's there. American's don't give a rat's behind about quality. The evaluate first on price, then features, then convience, style, poplularity and anything else they can come up with, and finally, having exhausted all else, consider quality.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Hopefully the drivers will be the only thing that are made to work with Linux from HP. I hate how OEMs in general add 20 desktop icons for "great offers" to Windows.
This is here so you don't ignore the last two lines of my posts.
HP does not open advertise the Ubuntu option, but instead lists FreeDOS as optional pre-installed OS. If requested, HP will provide a CD-ROM with a customized and Debian-based Ubuntu Linux free of charge. The CD also includes description of technical support, which includes free support through online resources as well as paid support through Canonical, the developer of Ubuntu.
I don't know, but I am quite skeptical about this, from what I read, people that chose the non Windows option would have to make the Ubuntu installation.
This mean one more step than with the Windows option...
There could be a difference, if the price of both configuraitons (windows, linux) where different. And even with that, the average user would end acquiring the Windows option because just hearing the "you must Install the OS to use the machine" will sound scary...
The question is WHY?? OH WHY!!? isnt Ubunty pre installed? what is wrong with that?
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Significant troubles would punish HP's already tarnished image. People in those regions who can afford to buy an HP laptop are in all likelyhood a very adept and forgiving kind of customer, with practical expecations. More over, a lot of them are used to getting the occasional shit end of the stick and having to sort it out in time.
It can be started in at least the Middle East and Africa relatively cheaply. The people who are their target customers might well already know about it.
Think of it as HP running an experiment for its US customers, that the rest of the world has to pay for.
If you really used Linux you wouldn't be serving us Red Herring.
These are usually Flash animations. Flash is available for Linux, I use it regularly. If these animations require some custom executable, she's better off not opening the attachment.
Not only does OpenOffice.Org handle Word documents, it's free. Your hypothetical old lady has a better chance with Ubuntu than with Windows of opening that recipe, since Word does not come with Windows XP. If you are lucky, it will be bundled by the OEM, but there's no guarantee.
Software requirements apply to everyone. With Windows, our hypothetical old lady has to make sure that she buys for the right Windows version, and that it's not a Mac application.
Boy, that was a full serving.
HP has always been a big Debian fan, so I am not suprised that they will support Ubuntu... They've been supporting Debian Stable for a long time and even offer a HP pack for it and they use it internally.
They've been probably waiting for the next Debian Stable, but Ubuntu is great right now so it makes sense.
Plus it's been a trend for people wanting to get involved in Linux to try to not depend to heavily on commercial Linux versions.
No, seriously: I get a HP product with 100%-non-Microsoft software, and Microsoft gets - if your 6$ is correct - six bucks for providing nothing whatsoever. Call that fair competition? I for one don't want to grow MS even fatter on this money-for-nothing, and if you don't agree you might as well start to report 'thought thieves' to Redmond, nutcake.
That's called third line forcing and is illegal here in Australia, does Canada have any similar laws?
1. I live in the US
2. I just got my first mac, a 15" powerbook.
Sorry HP, should've done this sooner..
you had me at #!
No linux laptops for you poor serfs in the Corporate Reich of America!
Choice quote from the article: "Elizabeth Phillips, PR Manager for Integrity, Linux and Open Source at HP (..) However, she said she was not aware of the Ubuntu project."
PR Manager for Linux and Open Source, at a firm the size of HP, and not even aware of Ubuntu Linux? Hmmm... I smell a job opening coming up...There was an article on slashdot a few years back how another company got around with their contractual obligation to M$ to not sell a computer without an OS.
They shipped their computers with Free DOS installed.
I've never tried this, but I'd try to get them to send me everything but the harddrive, OS, and CD's included with the packaging. Then I'd go and have someone dropship me the hardrive of my choice. No HD, no OS, no disks, no SKUs and they have what would look like a small, and insignificant, swell in their invetory. They would probably assume it was actually shrink, but they'd be wrong. They'd actually produce a small swell when they wrote off what looked like shrink, cheating the taxman out of a couple of bucks. And I do mean a couple.
I find it hard to believe than anyone highly placed enough to have the authority to say no would fight you if you laid that out and said, "In the end how much is too much to pay to make a customer happy?"
The things they're worried about are things that probably would grow out of control if they did it for everybody, which doesn't necessarily have to happen. And in the special cases, it is something that's picked up and washed in with the normal excecution of their business.
But if someone does go the extra mile for me, I do consider myself obligated to write a letter of praise. It's only fair.
While Carly did indeed act more like a mole from a competitor than an employee, it'd be nice to give them some benefit of the doubt.
Personally, I still think Carly was operating under orders from Intel, IBM, or Sun -- kill off the 2 viable Itanium/Power competitors (Alpha & PA-RISC), and one of the most credible computer companies (Compaq).
Is there anyone who would want Linux and also want to buy an HP brand notebook?
Seems to me the reason there isn't a whole lot of market for a linux enabled pre-built is that people who use linux tend to build things themselves...just a thought...
Marky Mark Killed Jason Bourne!
I have an HP ze5790US laptop, which came preinstalled with XPhome, but which I now dual boot with Ubuntu (and hardly ever boot into XP.) However, something which (despite spending several days recompiling the kernel with the right drivers) I have not been able to get the wireless card to work. Nor does putting the laptop to sleep (it will go to sleep, but not come out of it.) So if they are able to get these things to work with their laptops hopefully they will gpl their software, and make it available to others with their laptops.
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.
Dell is planning on offering Linux on their personal computers and notebooks this coming Fall so I am not surprised that HP is making the move already. They might want to test the waters in Europe and see how it goes before entering into negotiations with Microsoft about being able to sell plain/Linux hardware on our soil. Gateway has similar plans of what I hear.
I know for a fact that HP will ship FreeDOS if you ask them to, without the Microsoft tax. Just keep asking for supervisors until you get one who knows the order code. This worked a year ago.
From V9.2 Pro, it seems to work fine on my HP notebook. A standard install finds everything I need. Bluetooth, Wireless(with WPA), network interface, modem etc.
Maybe support staff isn't free, but it's dirt cheap in India.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Before I read the bit about the computers only being available to Europe, my respect for HP had gone up quite a bit briefly. What I don't understand is that, if the theory that they're only shipping to Europe because of money is true, why aren't they shipping to the USA? Wouldn't they get more profit from America?
Buy Powerbooks running YellowDog Linux. http://yellowdoglinux.com/ Screw HP if they are stuck with Microsoft.
Now we have an excuse, as if any were needed, to have round 7,346 of the "this time Linux will REALLY make it on the desktop/no, you're an idiot, here's why it will never make it" discussion.
I hate to sound cynical, but once upon a time I literally bet my career on Linux being the Next Big Thing, and I'm still paying the price for it. When Linux has 20% of the mainstream desktop and is forcing MS to treat customers better, let me know. Until then, it's jsut a hacker toy and server OS, and I refuse to get sucked into this pathetic mass hallucination.
I'm curious how they are going to deal with the issues of things like Divx, etc. You need the w32codecs to do it which aren't in the regular repos. You can install them, but it makes things kinda unclean or something. I can't describe what I'm thinking...
I'm just wondering if HP will do their own repositories or something like that or if it will just use the standard repos that Ubuntu uses plus select Universe repos or what?
I don't know... something about this just seems weird..... I don't know why maybe
You'll still be paying for an OS you won't be using (OSX, of course, which also comes installed on these systems.) There's no "Linux Only" discount for going with Yellow Dog.
I believe (could be wrong) there are other issues that may be a dealbreaker with Linux-on-Powerbooks (no Airport card support and limited sleep and sound functionality.)
... unfortunately, if they just offer bundled binary drivers for everything as they are likely to do, it leaves users up s**t creek come upgrade time.
/general/ Linux support for their laptops better rather than tying the user to one, quickly ancient, particular custom Linux build.
This being Linux, upgrades for desktop systems are essentially mandatory (some things don't age well, like IM clients, and upgrades often don't work on older versions, plus there's the issue of security updates) so this may well be a problem.
I'd be way happier to see them working to make
That is the way it should be. Being virtual machines, both Flash and Java stand a chance of being safe to run untrusted code - Java more so than Flash since it is secured at a lower level.
Seem to me , your talking out of your ass , and have no clue what your talking about , if there whas no demand or/and nobody paying for it , it would never get to be created in the first place.
Most People who use computer have never installed a software or there OS , They pay somebody else to do it for them.
GNU/Linux is for everyone.
You should have invoked Magnusom-moss on them the moment they told you that they cannot support your system with linux.
Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service.
They will have a hard time demonstrating that you system will not work properly under linux. Even if this is a linux only-system they will have a hard time. Since you have XP installed it is clear that linux cannot be at fault.
They can do that, but you don't have to accept the license for XP home. So put it on eBay. When lawyers pull it sue. The only thing that prohibits you from selling XP without a CPU/harddrive is the license, which is a contract. When you refuse to accept the contract it cannot apply.
Even if the contact does apply, it isn't clear that the no re-sell provision is legal. Most states have "first sale" laws which would apply.
I'm, not a lawyer myself. I'm pretty sure this would work, and I'd like someone to try it. However since I'm not a lawyer I cannot tell you what will happen, only what should.
Just FYI, Kubuntu means "towards humanity." Source: Kubuntu Wikipedia article.
Sometimes you've gotta roll the hard six.
I thought those OEM agreements were supposed to have been dealt with in the anti-trust ruling. I guess it really was just a big show.
The lack of knowledge makes people jump blindly on GNOME. GNOME is an architectual disaster, not to say that only half of the things really work as they should, stuff not quite polished or giving the user the feel of bad implementation. I don't know how people can say it's similar to Windows while it isn't and I wonder how people can say that it's customizable, while it isn't.
/. People should really spent some time looking at the whole aspects of GNOME, each app, what it can do, what it can not do. And not just watch some pron and sound to ripped mp3 files that's not what business is supposed to do or want to do.
I hate people who speak about GNOME like they know all about it but in realite don't know shit. I am dealing with such people for the past days.
Has anyone ever tried getting serious work done with GNOME ? Ever tried to print 'this page' inside GPDF or EVINCE ? Or have you ever asked yourself why GPDF doesn't offer a print dialog ? Ever looked at all the different Toolbars inside GNOME (this screenshot). Have you ever tried copying a full recursive subdir from FTP to your desktop without losing files ? Have you ever tried writing a circular letter with Abiword and trying to use Evolutions addressbook ? Ever tried drawing a computer related graph or UML graph using GNOME programms ?
I find lot of comments quite retarded and disgusting and don't understand why people without any clue give their shit crap comments on
The reaso there are no no Linux laptops in America is due to the wierd FCC rules with the wireless ethernet cards. Those cards are damn powerful and not only restricted on teh 2.4 Ghz bandwidth etc.. That could be a reason. ?? Any comments ?
Here they are: http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF04a/3219 57-64295-89315-321838-f33.html
Oh well, what the hell...
HP is now headed by Mike Hurd. He'll be trying to get HP in better shape after the raping it went through with Fiorina.
Maybe it's coincidence, or maybe not, but by using Europe, Middle East, Africa as a proving ground to get a stable linux version on their laptops, they could use it as a barganing chip against MS to get a better deal for MS OSs.
If MS gives in, the HP-Ubuntu option stays in EMEA, otherwise it goes global. HP giving such legitimacy would be a nightmare to MS.
Even if it wasn't intentional, I bet MS would sweeten it's deal with HP just to limit it's effect in any case.
Sort of show. I believe the OEM agreements had to be changed from "Current Microsoft OS" to "An OS". An OEM can bundle with FreeDOS to get around this without much (if any) increase in support.
Random windows software -> prepackaged windows emulator (wine?)
Word documents -> openoffice works find with these, crossover office could be packaged with the system
Check their websites. They'll only work on a very specific and very small subset of Windows apps, the odds that WINE or Crossover will run a random Windows software app suck.
I looked at them when I was looking for a Windows emulator that would give me access to all the Windows apps that either have no Linux equivalents, none that don't suck, or in the case of Eudora, would take an inordinate amount of work to port gigabytes of mail files to a Linux mail client. For me. . . no Eudora, no PaintShopPro. . . no CorelDraw . . .no deal.
That's why I'm running Win4Lin and an actual copy of Windows on top of Fedora Core 2... so I can get access to all my legacy apps. It is NOT free, but it DOES work.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I was informed by the sales rep that HP's contractual terms with MS required that no hardware could be sold without an operating system.
That is outrageous!
Say I'm Logitech. I make a deal with Energizer to package Energizer batteries with my wireless mice. However, I have to sign a contract saying that I can't sell ANY wireless mice without batteries.
What? Why? This doesn't make any sense, does it?
What does it matter to Microsoft what HP does with their business?
I think I should create a brand new, never before thought of technology that would become so popular it would be necessary for Windows to have it included. When I make my license with Microsoft, I'll have in it that they can't ever produce any operating system without, well, whatever it ends up being, and then when competition comes around, I'll show my big shiny patent in their faces and kick them out of the market.
God bless America.
Latin America is a good market
Total compliance, everybody happy.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Dell does this too for their no preinstalled OS computers.
Europe is more likely to buy into a GNU/Linux system in part because KDE is thought of as a European desktop environment, unlike Windows which must be imported from a company headquartered in the United States.
...until I didn't see the U.S. as one of their markets. Boo! I'm considering Linux, but I want to keep my Windows, so I was hopeful that this would be an alternative, but nooooo... Oh, well. I guess I have to sniff around elsewhere.
"Why would they not want to offer Linux to their American customers in this program? "
,Also the reason we dont have Notebook mass delivered with GNU/Linux is also because of Red Hat who dont have a solution and claim the GNU/Linux is not ready because someone said they where the leaders and expert , wich is absolutely false in both case.
You meant Etats-Unians customers , Americans would be if you add north America or the entire American continent in mind wich I doubt you did as I suspect your an Etats-Unians.
Why is simple : Red Hat , HP as add very strong ties with Red Hat and push them on the world wide scene and reserve the US market entirely to them
If you read the article you posted, you would see that it's Linux, not "GNU/Linux." There is no such thing as "GNU/Linux" that is being offered by HP. The more you zealots throw in other technical terms, the more everyday Joe & Jane America will turn away from it. Stick with Linux. I have never, ever, not even once heard our executives call it "GNU/Linux".
The lack of knowledge makes people jump blindly on GNOME. GNOME is an architectual disaster, not to say that only half of the things really work as they should, stuff not quite polished or giving the user the feel of bad implementation. I don't know how people can say it's similar to Windows while it isn't and I wonder how people can say that it's customizable, while it isn't.
/. or OSNews.com People should really spent some time looking at the whole aspects of GNOME, each app, what it does, what it doesn't. And not just watch some pron or listen to ripped mp3 files that's not what business is supposed to do or want to do.
I hate people who speak about GNOME like they know all about it but in reality don't know shit. I am dealing with such people nearly every day and it makes me sick. People contradicting themselves when arguing, people saying things they have no real clue about. People that simply suck. People defending GNOME for the sake of it, not willing to listen, not willing to even check out the stuff that was shown to them that suck, not even willing to understand the facts so they can be fixed afterwards. After 6 years with GNOME all this hell matured into a big pile of frustration. GNOME is frustrating, while the idea is good, the people working on it are worth nothing much, because they have no knowledge what they are doing. Not all but the majority of the people do suck. They spent time into patching stuff rather than using the ball above their neck to reconclude whether the architecture they patch makes sense to stay as it is or not. They became usability experts over night and made GNOME become a huge mess for the normal users.
Has anyone ever tried getting serious work done with GNOME ? Ever tried to print 'this page' inside GPDF or EVINCE ? Or have you ever asked yourself why GGV doesn't offer a print dialog ? Have you ever tried copying a full recursive subdir from FTP to your desktop using Nautilus without losing files ? Have you ever tried writing a circular letter with Abiword and trying to use Evolutions addressbook ? Ever tried drawing a computer related graph or UML graph using GNOME programms ? DIA ? No shit.
I find lot of comments quite retarded and disgusting and don't understand why people without any clue give their shit crap comments on
I feel sad that I need to explain this picture. Look closer to it. Now look again a bit closer to it.. No.. that's close enough..
This screenshot explains a lot to us. We don't care for the Toolbar structure nor do we care for the Menu structure. We only look at the appearance. Note that this is just one minor example.
We see Toolbars with ICONS only, we see Toolbars with TEXT beneath the ICONS, we see Toolbars with mixed entries as ICONS and TEXT, we see Toolbars which have a drag handle, we see Menu with drag handle, we see Toolbars without drag handle we see Menu without drag handle. Now what does us tell this ? It tells us that there is something wrong if we ask the question "why is this the case ?". We need to ask ourselves what the aim of a Desktop Environment and Developer Plattform is? The aim is to provide a set of bottom libraries (called a framework) for the developers, so they are able to create applications that feel coherent, look the same, work the same, behave the same as in a real environment. Do you want to have your kitchen filled up with different furniture or your living room ? One seat from type Y the other from type Q the other from Z. They simply do look disharmonic. This all with the GNOME HIG in mind then why do we still deal with such a mess ?
Now we need to look a bit closer to it and we figure out that GNOME offers for historic reasons different ways to create Windows. Now imagine this, you are a user and you want for some reason ICONS only on your Toolbar or you want no images in the Menu. You go into the preferences section and select 'icons only' for Toolbars and 'no images' for Menus. Aft
The lack of knowledge makes people jump blindly on GNOME. GNOME is an architectual disaster, not to say that only half of the things really work as they should, stuff not quite polished or giving the user the feel of bad implementation. I don't know how people can say it's similar to Windows while it isn't and I wonder how people can say that it's customizable, while it isn't.
/. or OSNews.com People should really spent some time looking at the whole aspects of GNOME, each app, what it does, what it doesn't. And not just watch some pron or listen to ripped mp3 files that's not what business is supposed to do or want to do.
I hate people who speak about GNOME like they know all about it but in reality don't know shit. I am dealing with such people nearly every day and it makes me sick. People contradicting themselves when arguing, people saying things they have no real clue about. People that simply suck. People defending GNOME for the sake of it, not willing to listen, not willing to even check out the stuff that was shown to them that suck, not even willing to understand the facts so they can be fixed afterwards. After 6 years with GNOME all this hell matured into a big pile of frustration. GNOME is frustrating, while the idea is good, the people working on it are worth nothing much, because they have no knowledge what they are doing. Not all but the majority of the people do suck. They spent time into patching stuff rather than using the ball above their neck to reconclude whether the architecture they patch makes sense to stay as it is or not. They became usability experts over night and made GNOME become a huge mess for the normal users.
Has anyone ever tried getting serious work done with GNOME ? Ever tried to print 'this page' inside GPDF or EVINCE ? Or have you ever asked yourself why GGV doesn't offer a print dialog ? Have you ever tried copying a full recursive subdir from FTP to your desktop using Nautilus without losing files ? Have you ever tried writing a circular letter with Abiword and trying to use Evolutions addressbook ? Ever tried drawing a computer related graph or UML graph using GNOME programms ? DIA ? No shit.
I find lot of comments quite retarded and disgusting and don't understand why people without any clue give their shit crap comments on
I feel sad that I need to explain this picture. Look closer to it. Now look again a bit closer to it.. No.. that's close enough..
This screenshot explains a lot to us. We don't care for the Toolbar structure nor do we care for the Menu structure. We only look at the appearance. Note that this is just one minor example.
We see Toolbars with ICONS only, we see Toolbars with TEXT beneath the ICONS, we see Toolbars with mixed entries as ICONS and TEXT, we see Toolbars which have a drag handle, we see Menu with drag handle, we see Toolbars without drag handle we see Menu without drag handle. Now what does us tell this ? It tells us that there is something wrong if we ask the question "why is this the case ?". We need to ask ourselves what the aim of a Desktop Environment and Developer Plattform is? The aim is to provide a set of bottom libraries (called a framework) for the developers, so they are able to create applications that feel coherent, look the same, work the same, behave the same as in a real environment. Do you want to have your kitchen filled up with different furniture or your living room ? One seat from type Y the other from type Q the other from Z. They simply do look disharmonic. This all with the GNOME HIG in mind then why do we still deal with such a mess ?
Now we need to look a bit closer to it and we figure out that GNOME offers for historic reasons different ways to create Windows. Now imagine this, you are a user and you want for some reason ICONS only on your Toolbar or you want no images in the Menu. You go into the preferences section and select 'icons only' for Toolbars and 'no images' for Menus. Aft
So in order to get Linux preinstalled on a laptop, you have to ask for it since it's not listed as an option, know to ask for it since they won't tell you about, and you have to live in a couple select countries, one of them not being the United States. And this is for a product that once it has been developed, is free for them to distribute. It's really sad they go to such lengths to hide their product from consumers. It's even more sad that this feels like a giant improvement over how things were a several years ago.
Maybe this announcement means that HP will distribute a Linux native Broadcom driver, which is rumored to exist.
Not only this...
Here at Brasil, companies can't force you to buy Windows along with the computer. If they don't offer an alternative, you can buy the computer WITHOUT ANY OS.
I must admit that you actualy have to involve some theatening of moving an lawsuit against the company, but in the end they'll sell even a notebook without Windows.
To force a coupled sell is a crime against the consumer, and consumer rights are one of the few things that are taken seriously around here.
But, in the end, even if you can buy a computer without Windows the price difference is so low, and it gives you so much work, that is better to buy the fscking computer with windows, and then wipe it out later...
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
Last September, I bought myself a Compaq Presario 2203 AL notebook (Centrino based) and it came with a customised version of Mandrake 9.1 preinstalled. Of course, most of the stuff (modem, frequency scaling, suspend to disk/RAM) did not work. I installed Ubuntu on it - and with a custom compiled kernel - everything is working perfectly. I close the lid, and if the system is on AC power, it goes into Suspend to RAM mode, and if it is running on battery, it suspends to disk.
I don't believe this to be fully correct and perhaps your salesperson doesn't know all the tricks as HP should, according to all the presentations I've seen, be able to sell you a machine with FreeDOS loaded.
Glitch in the matrix?
It's probably more like:
MS:OK, we'll charge you $xx for Windows.
---WAIT! You are selling Linux too! Make that $xxxx!
HP:OK, we'll just sell it in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa...
MS:Good enough, but it will still cost you $xxx.
This is VERY old news. Hell, I knew about HP putting Linux on their products over a year ago.
So you know, its virtually the same here in the US. I can't say its law, because I don't know. But I can't think of a PC maker (including HP) that won't sell you a machine without an OS. Sometimes you get an idiot on the phone and you just have to insist until you get someone who knows better.
Usually you get FreeDOS on the drive instead of windows. The only exception I can think of is Apple. I don't think they sell machines without the OS.
HP only had 50 refund issues last year. That's frickin' pathetic guys. I know more than 50 of you bought an HP last year. You can file a complaint online. It won't take much of your time and if the PC manufacturers are going to rip you off for $85 every time you get a new machine, you should at least make them earn it. They'll have to hire new help to deal with the complaints. Paying an extra $85 is like paying sales tax a second time. It's probably greater than the hardware manufacturers' profit margin on cheaper machines. If PC manufacturers start getting tens of thousands of complaints they might just go to bat for you. HP only received 1500 some odd complaints last year regarding ALL issues. Make those 50 refund complaints explode out to 5000+. That should get their attention. If Americans aren't getting Linux machines, it is because Americans aren't demanding them.
The lack of support in the US is likely due to the unethical bundling agreements with microsoft. One way to provide a reasonable degree of support without selling machines preinstalled is to publish highly detailed installation instructions. for a few distributions. I log machine installations in such a way that you can practically cut and paste the log into a shell prompt and duplicate the install. Only the occasional reboot or a $%@#$% interactive install program prevents running the entire log as a shell script. All file edits are recorded using diff/patch, sed, cat, etc so you have an exact way to reproduce the changes.
That way, you are covered on your first install, reinstalls, and have a good head start on upgrades. And, this way you don't have to use their configuration. You can partition your hard drive to your specifications, for example. But you don't need to go searching for drivers to download or puzzle out how to install them.
This approach doesn't work very well for grandma but it will work for power users who may be new to linux as well as those people who normally use linux. And it would be a major selling point to linux people if the installation instructions are on the HP web site and they can view them before they even buy the machine.
The link above includes an example for an older HP notebook.
Since when did Insightful mean "Totally fucking inaccurate?"
Flash is installed on all current Windows boxes.
This is an effort worthy of more publicity.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
So you mean to tell me they've finally polished off ACPI support, and we now have support for all states, including returning from the sleep states?
I had a wireless netgear card go out on me (after working fine for months). When I called Customer service for a replacement they insisted that the problem was Linux on my laptop and not the faulty card. The India-based representative told me that Linux was not supported. I had him access his own companies website and pointed out that they had Linux drivers available to download, but he still insisted that Linux was not supported. I finally convinced him that the card was bad after I borrowed an identical card from a friend and it worked fine on my laptop, and my card didn't work on his XP system. But it took 3 calls and plenty of frustrating conversation with someone who didn't quite understand what I was saying. I can't wait for the day when Linux is more widespread and openly supported by more companies. I hope HP offers a Linux laptop to US Customers. Trying to buy a laptop is really hit or miss. I tried a Toshiba (Centrino processor) a couple of years ago, but had to return it after a few days because at that time the Kernel support for the Centrino was pretty bad. I finally resorted to taking a live-Linux CD into the showroom and talking a salesperson into letting me try it on various laptops until I found one that was fairly compatible. Even getting that allowed was a struggle. Luckily, the manager had played around with Linux and knew what Live CD was. HP had the most compatible laptop at the time, but it's still been a struggle to get certain things to work properly. It's on its last legs now and will be replaced sometime later this year. Hopefully it will be easier to find a Linux compatible laptop this time.
Didn't HP have a contract with Mandriva, at least back when they were still named Mandrake?
Only Unethical?
Perhaps illegal if its to the detriment of the consumer. In this case, lack of availability in the US seems a big restriction of choice.
I'm the first, although it was in the wrong discussion :)
You can find more infomrations on pro-linux and heise (both german).
A short summary of the German texts: The notebooks will be shipped with FreeDOS pre-installed and a Ubuntu installation CD. Only the kernel on the Ubuntu CD will be modified: it contains HP specific patches to supports all features of the notebook, including full ACPI support, accelerated 3D graphics and two monitors. The rest of the distribution remains unmodified, you can update from the usual Ubuntu sources.
However I could not get the install to survive on my new HP laptop (64 bit athlon with the Radion express 200m video)
getting fairly certain it was the video that hangs on most distros.
even if you try to install in text mode it hangs almost everything dies during the install (suse 9.0, fedora core 2,3 32/64 bits)
I did get SUSE 9.1 to install except no networking yet
Ubunto works slick on my older thinkpad though
Hmmm, perhaps you have an issue with Xandros selling their package, but it's not crap.
I've used Xandros since version 1 and it runs most of the Linux workstations in our company. It is easy to install, complete, and elegant. Basically it's a Debian distribution with Xandros' custom file manager, which provides very nice integration with the network and devices.
Linspire... I tried it and it was too garish. But it worked well.
Gratuitous insults are not useful nor "insightful". If you have criticisms it's more useful to state what you actually base them on.
My blog
Ubuntu does "get" it, yes, but Xandros has been doing this for two years or so. Exactly as you describe: trivial install, one tool for each job, and all nicely integrated in a file manager that lets you access network resources and devices seamlessly.
Ubuntu has the main advantage of being entirely free which makes it the "here's Linux, now go off and don't bother me again" choice. Xandros sell their product but I've no objection to that. It's certainly worth the $50 or so.
My blog
I have a new hp pavillion zv6000cl laptop
WXVGA display. Radeon Express 200m
athlon 64 processor
live cds seem to work well (knoppix and mandrake move)
install CD hang shortly after you hit enter to install. I was able to eventually get suse 9.0 to install by adding frame-buffer and a couple of other switches at the install prompt. fedora. Ubuntu, mandrake, suse 9. and a bunch of others just hang after the prompt
SUSE 9.1 works ok except no networking.
Homer: Yahoo!
Lady: Yahoo! Up six and a quarter.
Homer: Huh, what is this crap?
Lady: Fox Broadcasting. Down eight.
Will they create a driver for the fscking Texas Instruments 5-in-1 memory card reader? It's the only thing which I miss in Linux on HP laptop.
But in the end it's only a half measure. For instance, there is no recourse if you find a bug in the driver, or you need a new feature, etc. We still need to lobby manufacturers for open source drivers or at least open documentation...
you had me at #!
Until the Linux market grows to a respectable size, and challenges M$' cursed monopoly, manufacturers are going to have little motivation to help solve the problem. (Market share will ensure support.) Maybe HP's initiative is a glimmer of hope...
you had me at #!
1). pick the best linux distro around
2). create yet another distro based on 1). use their huge package repos, and some of their devs
3). make 2). look more appealing to 6packs then the one in 1). or all similar like 2).
4). make a deal with a company to use the distro in 3). on their hw
5). profit
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
"Gratuitous insults are not useful nor "insightful"."
Yout the one insulting and beeing clueless and absoltuely not insightfull.
Debian for one is availaible at no cost and is free to share and free to modify and free to be copied and installed on as many computer as you whant.
Ubuntu is the same with improvments that The Debian core should have included , but its become
really clear that Debian is full of problem beginning with the way its runned.
Both of them ( Debian and Ubuntu ) have shown a profit ( as in incomes ) and have more paid developper alone wortking on them then both Linspire and Xandros have put togheter. ( Debian as 2k paid devlopper and an added estimated 3000 + Developper doing it for free ) ( Ubuntu as 70 Paid developper and as around 2500 free developper working on it ).
On the other hand Linspire and Xandros are both in financial trouble and are not making a profit or even abale to sustain themself on there own.
Xandros and Linspire are very costly as 95% of there offer is Debian ( or other free Debian base code ) and they include proprietary code that they themself have created but are not willing to share to give themself an advantage.
Both Xandros and Linspire cannot be shared legally with others , Both cannot be copied Legally without the permission of Xandros and Linspire , Both cannot be modified and improved.
Hence Linspire and Xnadros are both Crap , and that not even going into thecnical merits , Both of them will NOT install on a very wide array of hardware and cannot be modified to be made to run on them.
The article says HP-UX 11i as well
This would be really cool, however I do not belive it.
Yes there was/is a laptop available that runs hp-ux 11i but it does not have an intel processor and thus can not run Windows
this is porbably a typo, but if you hear different please let me know
Once you try and come up with an aircon design for 500 rack mounted boxes, power management matters there too.
I've found that the pentium-m laptop is better at work things (compiling, running java code) than the P4-Xeon-desktop. Its the best CPU design from intel for years.
Until someone writes a gpld driver for your wireless card, try ndiswrapper, it is a kernel module for linux that wraps around any ndis windows network driver (and it seems that almost every wireless device has an ndis driver), I am using it to post this comment, and it just works.
I think the best way to advocate Linux, is to have companies like HP, DELL, bundeling Linux with PCs. These companies would be able to build their own OS on top of Linux, and since Linux is open source and extremely customizable, it's not hard to make it idiot proof.
What about Red hat and Gnome ...
... for these components, Linux support is in general not THAT problematic. But what about power managment features, things that one needs most on a notebook? I guess they are still not doing enough. At least this short selection of support items shows that they are not aware of the problems one usually has with notebooks... (and what about the internal modem???)
This is not insightful. This is nonsense. Those animations? Half the time they are not flash at all, but self-contained executables.
...WHY normal users have a problem with virus/trojans/whatever? With Windows, I don't even think there's a "Nobody" user I could run them as, if it should be necessary to run unknown executables at all. All depends on what crap you want to take, some funnies not opening or reinstalling the whole machine on a regular basis...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Welcome to volume licensing with Microsoft. You pay for a license for anything capable of running Windows, Mac OSX, Linux, or UNIX.