ISS Oxygen Generator Fails for Good

billyj4 writes "A balky Russian oxygen generator broke down on the International Space Station, but its two-man crew has a reserve air supply that would last about five months, NASA officials said Friday. The station's primary generator, which has been operating in an on-again, off-again fashion for months, stopped working last week and the station's crew has not been able to fix it. Mission managers say the unit has failed for good. Consequently, Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev and U.S. astronaut John Phillips will be relying on reserves until replacement parts arrive at the station in late August."

Comments

Vodka ?

[krusaderu]

Wanna bet that if their Vodka generator would brake they could fix it ? Anyway I wouldn't wanna be left in space knowing I have X days of oxigen left ... very stressfull ...

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wanna bet that if their Vodka generator would brake they could fix it ?

Da. Just remove the brakes and it vill vork again.

Re:Vodka ?

[Trurl's Machine]

I wouldn't wanna be left in space knowing I have X days of oxigen left ... very stressfull ...

Bad news: you do. You live on a spaceship called "Planet Earth" whose primary oxigen generator is known as "Rainforest". It's ability of producing oxygen is decaying. From this decay you could calculate your X. Scared? You bloody well should be.

In previous episode of this space opera series, we have seen how attempts to repair "Rainforest" by the brave crew of "Planet Earth" using "Kyoto Agreement" failed due to actions of certain interstellar villain named "Bushadministration". Stay with us for the next episode!

Re:Vodka ?

[StratoChief66]

Congratulations for seeing this as an opportunity to bitch about the problems here on earth, but you are drawing a pretty thin simile between the earth and ISS. Without the oxygen generator astronauts have no other source of air, on earth we fuck up the air, die off and mother nature starts anew without us parasites. ISS won't start a new ecosystem sans humans when the oxygen runs out, it would just be a monumentally expensive example of the sucky space program.

Re:Vodka ?

[suitepotato]

Bad news: you do. You live on a spaceship called "Planet Earth" whose primary oxigen generator is known as "Rainforest". It's ability of producing oxygen is decaying. From this decay you could calculate your X. Scared? You bloody well should be.

In previous episode of this space opera series, we have seen how attempts to repair "Rainforest" by the brave crew of "Planet Earth" using "Kyoto Agreement" failed due to actions of certain interstellar villain named "Bushadministration". Stay with us for the next episode!

Not remotely true. The damage is being done by people who in many if not most cases are already acting illegally and there's been no real effort to stop them. To effectively shut down the deforestation of the rain forests, we'd need to militarily invade those nations hosting said forests and guard the landscape from settlers, ranchers, and others clear-cutting everything.

Sounds like the war in Give Me Liberty as do the obfuscating environmental politics. "Status deep sh*t, Martha..."

Re:Vodka ?

[Dougy]

I'm not american, but I feel compelled to point out that the kyoto treaty was in the clinton era, and he was the one who refused to sign it (not that bush would either)

Re:Vodka ?

[foreverdisillusioned]

Disregarding your BS about Kyoto (just how many rainforests do you think there are in the USA, anyway?), I'm pretty sure that the rainforests, which cover a tiny percentage of the earth's surface, are not a "primary" source of oxygen. In fact, I had always heard that algae produced far more oxygen than larger plants, although I can't find a link to back me up.

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You live on a spaceship called "Planet Earth" whose primary oxigen generator is known as "Rainforest".

Incorrect, the primary oxygen producer is algae, not the rain forests. Getting rid of the rain forests would have some effect, no doubt, but not the doomsday scenario you are implying.

Re:Vodka ?

[SmileyByte]

> In fact, I had always heard that algae produced far more oxygen than larger plants

That's what I had always heard too. Rainforests play a small role in oxygen renewal in our planet.

Re:Vodka ?

[sonic_ak]

Even military force would not save the rain forest, in all probability. The reason that the environment is getting screwed over to the extent that it is is that there is a financial incentive to do so. It is almost always cheaper to do something the dirty way, so your shareholders will crucify you if you try to do it differently (or you will simply get destroyed on the open market). The same thing is true for people on a smaller scale weather they be individuals or small businesses. Tragedy of the Commons and all that. The problem is systemic, so long as the incentive is there, it will keep happening.

Truth be told, though, I'm more woried about things like the ocean, finite groundwater supplies (see Los Angeles) and lack of incentive to create a long term solution. And for the record, I don't blame it on cosumers.

Re:Vodka ?

[nametaken]

Oh dear lord.

From the Wikipedia:

On June 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was to be negotiated, the U.S. Senate passed by a 95-0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98), which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or "would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States". Disregarding the Senate Resolution, on November 12, 1998, Vice President Al Gore symbolically signed the protocol. Aware of the Senate's view of the protocol, the Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol for ratification.

The Clinton Administration released an economic analysis in July 1998, prepared by the Council of Economic Advisors, which concluded that with emissions trading among the Annex B/Annex I countries, and participation of key developing countries in the "Clean Development Mechanism" -- which grants the latter business-as-usual emissions rates through 2012 -- the costs of implementing the Kyoto Protocol could be reduced as much as 60% from many estimates. Other economic analyses, however, prepared by the Congressional Budget Office and the Department of Energy Energy Information Administration (EIA), and others, demonstrated a potentially large decline in GDP from implementing the Protocol.
The current President, George W. Bush, has indicated that he does not intend to submit the treaty for ratification, not because he does not support the general idea, but because of the strain he believes the treaty would put on the economy; he emphasises the uncertainties he asserts are present in the climate change issue [10] (http://www.alternet.org/story/11054/). Furthermore, he is not happy with the details of the treaty. For example, he does not support the split between Annex I countries and others. Bush said of the treaty:

The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol. This is a challenge that requires a 100 percent effort; ours, and the rest of the world's. America's unwillingness to embrace a flawed treaty should not be read by our friends and allies as any abdication of responsibility. To the contrary, my administration is committed to a leadership role on the issue of climate change. Our approach must be consistent with the long-term goal of stabilizing greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere.

China emits 2,893 million metric tons of CO2 per year (2.3 tons per capita). This compares to 5,410 million from the USA (20.1 tons per capita), and 3,171 million from the EU (8.5 tons per capita). China, currently exempted from the requirements of the protocol, has since ratified the Kyoto Protocol and is expected to become an Annex I country within the next decade (at which time it would no longer be exempted). The US Natural Resources Defense Council, stated in June 2001 that: "By switching from coal to cleaner energy sources, initiating energy efficiency programs, and restructuring its economy, China has reduced its carbon dioxide emissions 17 percent since 1997".

Re:Vodka ?

[MalaclypseTheYounger]

Interesting point... I have no idea how much it takes for plants to give us O2, but why can't we just send up a bunch of plants into space, to convert our CO2 into O2?

Maybe make it an edible plant, so we can feed the astronauts salads as well?

(I'm assuming this has been thought up before, and the plants just take up too much space/water?)

Re:Vodka ?

[Skye16]

Don't worry. There's a lot of space out there.

(I should know by now that puns just aren't funny..)

Re:Vodka ?

[Rei]

False. Clinton signed it, congress didn't ratify it, Bush controversially un-signed it.

Re:Vodka ?

[Rei]

Diatoms and phytoplankton make up about 1% of Earth's biomass, and are responsible for about 50% of Earth's photosynthesis, so they'd undoubtedly be what you'd need. Assuming a 20% solar efficiency at oxygen generation, 5% energy loss through the protective layers around them and the water, an incoming solar radiation density of 1.4kW/m^2, and 237.13kJ/mole for splitting water (i.e., 237.13 kJ to make 1/2 mole of O2 (8g)), and human consumption of 1 kg per person per day (with three people), To achieve 3kg/day oxygen production would require (3000/8)*237.13=89MJ of energy, i.e. 25 kW/h, i.e. a constant conversion power of ~12.5kW (we'll ignore Earth's shadow, and assume heliostat). Factoring in inefficiencies, we get 12.5 / (0.2 * 0.95) ~= 66m^2. Assuming a specific mass of 15 kg/m^2 (it needs to shield radiation and contains water full of phytoplankton deep enough to absorb all light - this is probably an underestimate), and ignoring heliostat weight requirements, that's about a metric ton of weight. Or, you can send up 20 kilograms of solar panels and perhaps 10 kilograms for the generator. Which seems more realistic to you?

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You live on a spaceship called "Planet Earth" whose primary oxigen generator is known as "Rainforest"

You misspelt "Ocean".

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

To effectively shut down the deforestation of the rain forests, we'd need to militarily invade those nations hosting said forests and guard the landscape from settlers, ranchers, and others clear-cutting everything.

As someone who has seen this firsthand, the primary reason for deforestation isn't the profit motive (from settlers, ranchers, or anyone else). It is stupidity; and a level of stupidity that is difficult for any sane person to grasp.

What happens is that the dumbass natives burn down a section of the rain forest in an attempt to farm it. But the soil is so poor that they usually only get a single crop out of it, so they burn down and attempt to farm another section the next year. Note that this process isn't due to (the commonly blamed but only responsible for a tiny fraction of deforestation) commercial farming or ranching, it is essentially subsistence farming by illiterate, impoverished natives.

Unfortunately, the philosophy of the brain-dead Left in the U.S. requires that the blame for ecological damage must always be placed upon distinct, previously identified opposition groups, and "native peoples" are not among them. Thus, attempts will be made to prevent logging (which, ironically, could actually solve the problem), industrialization, or "Republicans", which will do nothing to solve the real problem (since the deforestation would be happening even if those groups ceased to exist).

Unfortunately, the raping of the rain forests is going to continue for a long time, because the world is composed of stupid right-wing people who want to ignore the problem, stupid native people who ARE the problem, and stupid left-wing people who refuse to identify the problem.

Ultimately, the only one of these groups who has a chance of solving the problem are the right-wingers. The natives have shown themselves to be fundamentally brain-dead (when offered money from advocates of sustainable timber management that far exceeds the economic value extracted by subsistence farming, they refuse it in favor of their "traditional" farming methods). The left-wingers are not fundamentally brain-dead, but might as well be (since their philosophy prevents them from even recognizing the true problem, let alone ever getting around to fixing it).

So the future of humanity is now in the hands of a group of people who (some of whom at least) are aware of the problem, but whose history in dealing with such issues has been less than spectacular. Short of a resurgence of Teddy Roosevelt-style conservatism in the Republican party, the dismal fate of the rain forests as they exist today is sealed.

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

False. Clinton signed it, congress didn't ratify it, Bush controversially un-signed it.

Liar. Bush "un-signed" nothing. Treaties don't have ANY legal standing unless ratified by the Senate, and the Senate rejected it 95-0 during the Clinton era, when Democrats and Republicans had parity in the Senate.

It's OK to hate Bush, but you don't need to be a God-damned liar about it just to make him look worse than he is.

Re:Vodka ?

[Rei]

Liar

"Liar" yourself. It says right there that Clinton signed the treaty; deny reality all that you want. I never claimed that the treaty was ratified; all I claimed was that Clinton signed it, and that Bush "un-signed" it (note the quotation marks, implying "figurative").

Seriously - if you can't read, go away.

Re:Vodka ?

[dabigpaybackski]

Disregarding your BS about Kyoto (just how many rainforests do you think there are in the USA, anyway?)

There's a little patch up in Northwest Oregon around Astoria that gets 70 in. of precipitation a year. Part of the Olympic Penninsula in Washington gets 160 in. a year (try a winter there,) and a small swatch along the Tennesee/North Carolina border gets up to 90 in. annually. Southeastern Alaska gets hosed during the winter months, as the mossy vegetation attests, and the rainiest spot on Earth is Hawaii's Mt. Waialeale--440 inches annually. All of these environments qualify as rainforests, though all except the one in Hawaii are temperate.

Re:Vodka ?

[foreverdisillusioned]

Doesn't surprise me. My implication was not that we didn't have any rainforests, but that the vast majority of rainforests lie outside the USA. You describe two of the rainforests we do have as "swatch" and "patch", I doubt that the flora in Southeastern Alaska is anything like what you'd find in an Amazonian rainforest. Great-grandparent was trying to imply that the USA's environmental policy had a significant impact on rainforest destruction, and I think that's absurd at face value.

Re:Vodka ?

[Anonymous Coward]

if their Vodka generator would brake

"break".

Re:Vodka ?

[ShakaUVM]

Wow, using a per-captia calculation for China to show... how clean they are?

Lol, China is one of the most heavily polluted places on the planet. When I was in Beijin, I started feeling nauseous from all the air pollution.

A while back, Slashdot had a map showing pollution levels in the world. IIRC, the blurb said "the pollution over America and Europe was expected, but what is that large thing over Siberia? An anamoly?"

Something like that.

China's pollution will only continue to rise, as they are adding a million new drivers a year.

balky?

[utexaspunk]

A balky Russian oxygen generator broke down

I thought Balky was from Meepos?

riiiidiculus!

Re:balky?

[WickedClean]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090501/

Actually it is spelled Balki. I used to love that show as a kid but I saw a rerun of it a couple years ago and it wasn't quite as good as I remembered.

Re:balky?

[pcmanjon]

This is a dupe. Refer to all previous posts in the http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/0 6/1526201&tid=160 article.

Stupid editors strike again.

Re:balky?

[Dachannien]

Not to mention that he generates carbon dioxide rather than oxygen.

Re:balky?

[sconeu]

Get out of the city!

Re:balky?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that one was "ISS Oxygen Generator Fails"; this one is "ISS Oxygen Generator Fails for good." The subtle difference is that all hope of fixing it that was present when the earlier article was posted has now disappeared, and that they have now abandoned the idea.

Re:balky?

[DrEldarion]

Unfortunately, that's how everything is. Thudercats, Disneyland, Pauly Shore movies...

Re:balky?

[utexaspunk]

have you seen voltron since growing up? i don't know how i ever even thought that made sense!

Re:balky?

[AyeRoxor!]

have you seen voltron since growing up? i don't know how i ever even thought that made sense!

I'd like to see you walk up to the defender of the universe and say that to his FACE.

Re:balky?

[WickedClean]

No way, dude. I just got Season One of Sledge Hammer! on DVD and it is even better than I remembered it.

Re:balky?

[alc6379]

Coosin Larry, is that you?

Re:balky?

[dabigpaybackski]

I'd like to see you walk up to the defender of the universe and say that to his FACE.

Exactly. Fuck with Voltron and you fuck with yourself.

Booyah.

Re:balky?

[Mycroft_VIII]

LOL I remember that show. One episode opened with them dissarming a nuke in some room, sledge says trust me I know what I'm doing. They pan out to a mushroom cloud and then the story proper starts with the subtitle 5 years earlier.
Always thought that was a bad move limiting the series to just 5 more years, but it never made it anyway. :)

Mycroft

Re:balky?

[WickedClean]

Actually that episode was the finale of Season One. The producers were so sure that it wouldn't get renewed for a second season that they decided to nuke everything in the end. When it did get picked up for another season, the rest of the shows were like prequels. The whole thing was so silly that they could get away with it.

Mmm, air

[StratoChief66]

Sure NASA says the parts are coming, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Oh No He Didn't!
Oh Yes He Did!

Ha ha ha, but seriously, I hope they don't die.

Re:Mmm, air

[rabblerabble]

It's unfortunate that they forgot the six packs of Perriair for this exact situation.

Re:Mmm, air

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what the big deal is, can't they just open a window? Or didn't they put windows in the space station? I bet that is it! So called "Rocket Scientists" and they didn't put in windows! And they call us blondes dumb!

(Someone talking windows on slashdot... there has to be a joke in there somewhere.)

Re:Mmm, air

[Gilmoure]

A screen door maybe?

Re:Mmm, air

[StratoChief66]

Naw, the government gave all those to the submarines. I wonder what a strong screen door would do in space, would you be sucked through in tiny pieces or get a major bruising?

Re:Mmm, air

[BrokenHalo]

Mmmm mmmm. If I had air for five months and the "promise" that NASA will deliver in August (that's three months by my reckoning), I would be getting a little anxious about it. It isn't as if NASA haven't fucked up before, after all...

Re:Mmm, air

[Gilmoure]

Grid blisters?

Re:Mmm, air

[StratoChief66]

thats what I'm thinking, or finely diced astronaut

Re:Mmm, air

[Fallingcow]

Well, look on the bright side:

ISS Oxygen Generator Fails for Good

At least it didn't fail for evil.

Re:Mmm, air

[Waffle Iron]

Sure NASA says the parts are coming, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I found the tracking number, and it looks like you're right:

NASA Express Package Tracking Results

383456875421256 Qty 1 Korelev Vital Oxygen Generator Model 340
383456875423858 Qty 12 Korelev 1 Month Supply Oxygen for Model 340

2003-11-13 14:32 Kiev, RU Package Pickup
2003-11-14 05:44 Moscow, RU Arrived Distribution Center
2003-11-14 18:32 Moscow, RU Departed Distribution Center
2003-11-15 05:44 Newark, NJ Arrived US Customs
2003-11-18 02:14 Newark, NJ Cleared US Customs
2003-11-20 22:33 Miami, FL Arrived Distribution Center
2003-11-21 04:18 Miami, FL Departed Distribution Center
2003-11-21 15:22 Cp. Cvl FL Arrived Space Port
2003-11-21 15:22 Cp. Cvl FL Arrived Space Port
2003-12-19 18:32 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery
2004-02-22 02:19 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery
2004-07-18 11:48 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery
2004-10-22 09:18 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery
2005-01-11 14:16 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery
2005-05-13 11:38 Cp. Cvl FL Out on Spaceplane for Delivery

Current estimated delivery date: 2005-08-03 by 4:30 pm

Re:Mmm, air

[macidiot]

that made diet dr. pepper come out of my nose... thanks. :)

Re:Mmm, air

[damiangerous]

It's not as if they couldn't evacuate in the attached Soyuz at any time. That's what it's there for.

Re:Mmm, air

[shawn(at)fsu]

If you living in a bubble and you haven't got a care, then you better watch out cause were gonna steal your air. Cause what you got is what we need and all we do is dirty deeds we're the Space Balls! Watch out! Watch Out! Were the Space Balls.

Re:Mmm, air

[EvilTwinSkippy]

(Gasp)

I'm breathless that you would play on that dark sort of humor. I have a right mind to asphyxiate you where your stand.

Re:Mmm, air

[Auntie Virus]

I wonder what a strong screen door would do in space, would you be sucked through in tiny pieces

You'd strain yourself!

Re:Mmm, air

[geoffspear]

Grandparent is obviously a West Wing viewer, and can be forgiven from buying in to the dumbest story line I've seen on TV in years.

I was just waiting for some character to say, "You know, it's a shame no one thought of including some sort of emergency escape vehicle on the ISS when they built it."

Stupid writers.

Re:Mmm, air

[PlacidPundit]

1, 2, 3, 14 ?! What the hell is going through your head Bono?

You're reading my mind here. What is *wrong* with this man, anyway?

Re:Mmm, air

[Clod9]

Kiev isn't in RU, it's in UA!

Re:Mmm, air

[pjbgravely]

"1, 2, 3, 14 ?! What the hell is going through your head Bono?"

Here are a few ideas.

This is probably the correct one.

"Bono said on Jo Whileys BBC Radio 1 Show that he didnt realise that it meant 14-he thought it meant 4 and that there may have been some alcohol involved at the time!"

Re:Mmm, air

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. But why do you think russians sinked their own space station MIR? I'll tell you why. For americans, even Kiev is RU, and even MIR is ISS. But how do you expect to tell the automated space ship that he came to wrong Space Station, and delivered his replacement parts to MIR instead of ISS? So they moved MIR from space to ocean. However, I heard some shipments are still coming to MIR Ocean Station, mostly from US side.

typical

[maharg]

.. I guess they ran out of duct tape

Re:typical

[StratoChief66]

Probably, because if I was up there and had some duct tape I know i would sneak up on the other astronaut in his sleep and double my oxygen reserve by taping his mouth and nose shut.

But seriously, I hope they don't die.

Re:typical

[serutan]

Don't worry, the Russian refueling station attendant from Armageddon is on the way with a couple cases of duct tape and cigarettes.

Re:typical

[Anonymous Coward]

Have no fear, I'm sure they will be saved by the inanimate carbon rod.

Very Stressful...

[cnelzie]

...because we all know that it takes almost 5 months to move from one end of the station to the other, which means those Astronauts need to start moving towards the escape vehicle, about now.

It stated in the Article snippet that they have 5 months of oxygen. How is that stressful?

Re:Very Stressful...

[Pakaran2]

Yep. TFA doesn't make it clear that they can bail out via the Soyuz (sp?) anytime they need to. And that won't be necessary, because supplies are arriving easily in time. They're no more in an "emergency" than you would be if your car alternator blew on the way home from work (in fact, far less so, a slightly soft tire might be a better analogy).

When the supplies get there, they'll have to spend time replacing the machine, but that's about it.

Re:Very Stressful...

[faloi]

It stated in the Article snippet that they have 5 months of oxygen. How is that stressful?

Because the replacements parts are going to take about four months to get there. Assuming nothing happens to, oh, delay launches or otherwise ruin the whole process of getting the parts up there. Then they have to fix it, and hope it works. I don't know about your experience, but if I had a nickel for every time the first set of parts I got didn't work I'd have a lot of nickels. But at least I always had my precious air.

Re:Very Stressful...

[StratoChief66]

If they are relying on reserves then they are more vulnerable to an accident or something. With an oxygen generator they have a supply of new air they can rely on to slowly but constantly build their reserves back up after an accident where oxygen is used (fire) or lost (micro-breach?).

I wouldn't like to know that I have a very finite and exactly known amount of oxygen left at my disposal with no chance of more until some guy I have no influence over decides my situation is desperate enough to warrent more. That and knowing I can't do anything at all about with all of my fancy training and experience.

Re:Very Stressful...

[rampant mac]

"It stated in the Article snippet that they have 5 months of oxygen. How is that stressful?"

Oh, I dunno... Maybe the remote possibility of RUNNING OUT OF OXYGEN AND DYING?

What if the mission to send replacement parts fails? What if the escape vehicle doesn't work?

I get a little stressed when we run out of coffee at work, to each their own I guess.

Re:Very Stressful...

[cnelzie]

Then they hop into their Soyuz Capsule return to Earth.

Again, where's the stress in having 5 months to get replacement parts and then still have time to get themselves into the escape capsule?

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

>It stated in the Article snippet that they have >5 months of oxygen. How is that stressful?

Because the replacements parts are going to take about four months to get there.

Um, that still leaves a month. 4 weeks is not really 'cutting it close'.

Re:Very Stressful...

[cnelzie]

Just about every replacement part I have ever ordered, with one or two exceptions, has given me no problems.

Perhaps you need to ground yourself and remove any metal jewelry before working on things.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Vellmont]

Oh, I dunno... Maybe the remote possibility of RUNNING OUT OF OXYGEN AND DYING?


Well Nervous Nelly, the article states there's at least two other backup oxygen supplies that have quite a long duration.

What if the mission to send replacement parts fails?

There's always a Soyuz capsule docked at the station so they can abandon the space station if necessary.

What if the escape vehicle doesn't work?

Unlikely. If it doesn't work, then I'd imagine there'd be some rush to launch another Soyuz or Shuttle. There's something very basic that you seem to be missing though. At some point you just have to accept the fact that space exploration is dangerous. Why do you have this attitude that it should be as safe as walking to the drugstore? How many people die just doing something like climbing Mt. Everest? Life is dangerous. If you don't like that, there's always the option of never venturing outside.

Re:Very Stressful...

[faloi]

Perhaps you need to ground yourself and remove any metal jewelry before working on things.

Sadly I've tried that. I have better luck with certain vendors than others, to the point where I would order two parts from certain no longer existant major computer companies just to be sure I got one that worked. But I guess the fact they don't really exist anymore might be a subtle hint about their quality anyway.

Re:Very Stressful...

[cnelzie]

Heck, walking to the damn drugstore can be dangerous. Heck, leaving the damn house is dangerous, heck even living is dangerous.

More people die every year walking, then people have died in the entire life of the US Space Program.

More people die in their bathtubs, every year, then have ever died in the Space Program...

You are safer going into space, then you are driving ten miles on any American Highway.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're no more in an "emergency" than you would be if your car alternator blew on the way home from work (in fact, far less so, a slightly soft tire might be a better analogy).


You can get an average of 5 to 10 miles with a full battery out of a car after the alternator blows. I would say this is a lot less stressfull then having to replace an alternator.

Maybe a power steering pump or slow radiator leak.

Re:Very Stressful...

[VAXcat]

5 to 10 miles? 50 to 100 miles and more is more like it. There's a fantastic amount of energy in a car's battery when it's fully charged

Re:Very Stressful...

[robertjw]

What if the escape vehicle doesn't work?

That would be a good time to start worrying. Until then, I think they are probably OK.

I get a little stressed when we run out of coffee at work, to each their own I guess.

You didn't say they were running out of coffee. That's completely different, if the coffee is getting low they should jump into that escape pod IMMEDIATELY, just in case.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

50 to 100 miles.

Are you daft?

A fully charged car battery will not get you very far when you are powering the ignition systems, providing spark to the plugs, powering the break booster, ABS, and any other options your car may have that you can't turn off.

Last time my alternator died, I made it 6 miles before the car just stopped (a small 4 cylinder Toyota Camary at that). The time before that it was night and I needed my headlight, I made it two miles before the lights were to dim to drive. (again a 4 cylinder, Dodge Colt)

Re:Very Stressful...

[neoform]

"If you don't like that, there's always the option of never venturing outside."

WHAT IF MY HOUSE BURNS DOWN THEN?! HUH?!

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've driven from Terre Haute, IN to Joliet, IL (About 300 miles) after my alternator died in a 1989 Pontiac Grand Am. Your car will run quite a ways if you are not trying to break your car windows with the sound from your subwoofer.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Masami Eiri]

I got my 88 Beretta to around 60 miles with a dead alternator.. I don't think the battery was at a full charge either. Got me within towing distance of my house so I could replace the thing.
Less than a year later, I wrecked the car -_-

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your alternator probably didn't die all the way, at first anyhow... It probably put out some current, but it didn't put out enough which in turn alerted the computer system to a problem, which in turn turned on your light. It was probably a blown diode, and the remaining two were intact, providing enough juice to keep you going.

Car batteries don't hold that much power, but what they're fantastic at is putting out a lot of power quickly (starting, fer instance). If your car were completely reliant on battery for making spark, powering computers, powering injectors, powering fuel pump, and all of that stuff that it takes to make a modern car run, it wouldn't go 10 miles... Period.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't about how many died, it's about the percentage that have died, which i'd guess is quite a bit larger than the percentage of pepople, throughout history, who have died walking to the drugstore.

Re:Very Stressful...

[neoform]

what if the bunker is built air tight and i run out of air?!

Re:Very Stressful...

[mlyle]

Hey kids! I've made it great distances on a car with a failed alternator-- in fact, for a brief period when I didn't have the time to get mine fixed I just charged the battery nightly.

Let's compute a quick power budget and figure out just how wrong you are!

Ignition: 30-45 watts (sorry, I don't have a good source for this now but I'm pretty sure it's correct).
Fuel pump: 80-100 watts.
Injectors: 6 watts * 6 cylinders (max)=36W
Computers: Not much. Less than 30W.
Daytime lights/etc: 100W.
Fudge factor for additional draw: 100W
TOTAL ~420W

So say you take a typical 45A-Hr battery, with a nominal 550 Watt-hours. 550W-hr / 360W = 1.5 hours. So to only make it 10 miles, you'd need to be driving about 7 MPH. I usually drive faster than that, but your mileage may vary. (And of course, these numbers are for a brand new battery, so an older battery will do somewhat worse).

One more way to do the math. Many cars ship with 70A alternator. Assuming the car always draws 70A (not possible, because then the battery would never get charged), then the battery will provide over its rated discharge voltage for 38 minutes.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

On International Space Station, Russion oxygen generator fails YOU!

Re:Very Stressful...

[toddestan]

Sounds like both times your alternator was weak and wasn't properly charging the battery before it finally died. Thus, your quite weak battery didn't last long powering the car.

Re:Very Stressful...

[sjames]

Why do you have this attitude that it should be as safe as walking to the drugstore?

People occasionally die walking to the drug store

If you don't like that, there's always the option of never venturing outside.

Most people die at home

:-) Agreed, there's only so many what ifs you can string together before you get to what if they return to Earth and find it's been taken over by apes?

An aweful lot more would have to go wrong before they would be stranded without oxygen.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

"What if the mission to send replacement parts fails? What if the escape vehicle doesn't work?"

Oh how I love "What if..." questions. You know, when I was getting my private pilots license I had a ground school instructor that made fun of people that asked "What if..." questions, and now I see why.

His response to all of them? Bend over, kiss the brow spot, and die like a man.

Re:Very Stressful...

[Mycroft_VIII]

Interesting, but all that is just a first approximation.
IF your car was brand new and had superconduting wires and no other draws on it's power and the battery was an ideal battery (perfect discharge till zero then nothing at all) you might get your 38 minutes.
Reality adds in line losses, the fact that a car battery is NOT designed to be used that way and all the side items the system has to power all add up to mean you'll get less than half that durring the day, and a LOT less at night.

Mycroft

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

You've had alternators die on you twice? I've been driving since 1972 (well, not continually; sometimes I walk, and other times I don't move at all (especially when I'm sleeping), but you get the idea), and I've never had an alternator die on me. WTF are you doing to your cars?

Re:Very Stressful...

[Anonymous Coward]

> I don't know about your experience, but if I had a nickel for every time the first set of parts I got didn't work I'd have a lot of nickels. But at least I always had my precious air.

I assume that, along with replacement parts for the oxygen generator, a new five-month reserve supply of oxygen will be shipped as well. So even if the parts don't work, their oxygen reserves will be replenished.

Re:Very Stressful...

[petermgreen]

not really you can't just "generate" oxygen from nothing. you either have to recycle it from C02 or water (which afaict is what this oxygen generator did) or you have to ship it up from earth (either in elemental form or in the form of theese oxygen candles.

i guess the generator could work with the C02/water from a fire but it wouldn't really help in terms of outright losses.

finally remember they do have a soyuz docked which they can use as an escape pod if they need to.

Re:Very Stressful...

[motox]

It's stressful if you think the supplies may be due on a balky american shuttle

Actually shows the IIS is some use

[hey]

Its a good place to try out tech that might be
used in a more exciting mision.

Re:Actually shows the IIS is some use

[XanC]

I still wouldn't touch IIS with a 10-foot pole. TinyHTTPd all the way!!

Re:Actually shows the IIS is some use

[187807]

A failure aboard the ISS may indeed remind some of IIS.

Re:Actually shows the IIS is some use

[Pakaran2]

However, to my knowledge, the ISS has crashed significantly more seldom than our IIS installation at work.

Re:Actually shows the IIS is some use

[Rei]

Apart from your amusing typo, that is a very good point. I'll never get the people who are insistant that everything is "good to go" for a year long mission to Mars when things break left and right just here in orbit. And it's not just ISS - Mir broke all of the time, and if we had used Skylab enough, even more things would have likely broken more than they already did.

There's still an awful lot of learning going on. With such limited product runs and such extreme environments, even with rigorous testing problems occur. One of my favorite examples is the problem that they were having with unexpected torque being applied to the station. It took them a long time, but they eventually figured out that the problem was the Russian space suits. They vent gasses through a single vent; this creates a very tiny but extant net force. On most space missions, including those on Mir, it was unnoticable, but when working on ISS's most outward parts (at the time, over 70 meters long - it'll be more than 100 meters long when it's done), it became significant (Mir was only 13 meters long)

Re:Actually shows the IIS is some use

[maxwell demon]

Or maybe they should have sent up an Apache?

Time to go to Druidia

[wiredog]

with Mega-Maid.

Re:Time to go to Druidia

[AltairMan]

"Sir, she's gone from suck to blow!"

Atypical for the girlfriendless ./ crowd of course.

Rich

How did the Generator Fail?

[ultimabaka]

None of the articles mentioned seems to say, so I'm left to sit here and think "the machine just broke, not worth trying to fix?" That hardly seems right. And why can we not send up a replacement machine? We've got a few months to do it, and I hope we weren't stupid enough to only build one of them.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[AKAImBatman]

How did the Generator Fail? [...] I'm left to sit here and think "the machine just broke, not worth trying to fix?"

They didn't say how the generator failed, but the article did state that they had attempted repair and failed. The [Astro|Cosmo]nauts and Ground control have come to the joint conclusion that "it's dead Jim!" and have decided that they just need a replacement. I can imagine that there are quite a few unfixable things that can happen to the unit. Without replacement parts, there's nothing that can be done. And when your life depends on the equipment, it makes a lot of sense just to replace the entire unit rather than just send the spare parts.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[spookymonster]

... why can we not send up a replacement machine?

The good news: it's still under warranty

The bad news: the manufacturer won't send out a replacement until they've received the broken unit

The really bad news: Sergei threw the crate out after they unpacked it, so they've go nothing to ship it in

The really, really bad news: When they do finally find something to ship it in, they're just going to kick it out of an airlock with a note attached: "If found, please return to We Scrub Air, Inc. P.S., sorry for landing on your grandmother"

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[J05H]

Elektron is a standard unit on Russian space stations, Mir and Salyuts (iirc) used them as well. They break all the time. Krikalev and the crew before his (Ciao and Sharipov) all have spent tons of time working on both the Elektrons onboard. One broke, they put in the other, it has broken again. It seems that they spend a lot of time stripping and repairing Elektron units.

Definitely time for a new, more robust O2 generator. Not enough time in the interim to build a new style of generator, but there is a mid-term opportunity for one.

The Russians will be sending either parts or a new unit with the next Progress supply craft.

josh

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Chairboy]

Of course, the Russians/Soviets have sent more space missions up and lost fewer people. Hmm... don't you hate it when facts get in the way of your pithy comments?

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Danimoth]

The summery clearly states that replacement parts will be sent up in August.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[stlhawkeye]

Yes, I hate it almost as much as when people take comments seriously that are clearly not meant to be taken seriously.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[stlhawkeye]

Incidentally, NASA has lost a total of 18 people in spacecraft accidents, 14 while in flight. That's out of 581 individuals launched into space (that figure doesn't include people who have gone and returned safely multiple times). NASA's survival rate is about 97%.

The Soviets (officially) lost 4, but supposedly there were at least 12-15 more deaths that haven't been declassified yet.

Pretty convenient and deceptive of you to quote the number of flights rather than the number of spacefarers that have been launched and returned. If the Soviets had launched 90 shuttle missions, do you think they'd have only lost two? I really doubt it.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[NardofDoom]

Do you mind if we raise your taxes to pay for the newer, more robust oxygen generator and the cost-plus contract to get it developed?

Didn't think so.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Col. Blackwolf]

Additionally, while NASA has lost 14 people in flight, none of them were lost outside of the Earth's atmosphere.

The USSR is suspected to have lost at least two in orbit.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[stevesliva]

Suspected to have?

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[DerekLyons]

None of the articles mentioned seems to say, so I'm left to sit here and think "the machine just broke, not worth trying to fix?" That hardly seems right.

They've spent hundreds of man-hours over the last 6-8 months trying to fix it - but they've now run out of spares. (Slashdot is thin on space coverage other than blockbusters.)

And why can we not send up a replacement machine?

For two reasons: A) there isn't a replacement machine, the two on ISS (both broken) are modified MIR era spares. B) The two machines are not located where they can be removed and replaced.

We've got a few months to do it, and I hope we weren't stupid enough to only build one of them.

'We' (meaning the US) did exactly what so many here on Slashdot have been loudly advocating - relying on 'well proven, time tested' Russian/Soviet hardware. Only, as many informed commentators have been saying for years, that hardware *isn't* proven by time, be it Elektron or Soyuz. The failures on ISS are the exact same failures seen a decade ago on MIR.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[elrous0]

while NASA has lost 14 people in flight, none of them were lost outside of the Earth's atmosphere.

I'm sure that's a great comfort to their families.

NASA Official: Hi, Mr. McCullaugh, we've got some good news and some bad news...

-Eric

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's good, because in August it'll be nice and summary.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[J05H]

The Russian Space Agency, the nominal owner of that part of ISS, is not funded by our taxes. Well, not directly. I didn't say anything about a NA$A funded project - I said that there were commercial opportunities to undercut the old ways of doing things. An american company offering a full-service "life support" module to RKS doesn't need any NASA involvement.

Don't matter - Bigelow Aerospace is about to shake up the whole "space station" terrain.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[isomeme]

2x7 for the two lost Shuttle crews, 3 for the Apollo 1 ground fire, and that's 17 -- who am I missing?

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[gstoddart]

Do you mind if we raise your taxes to pay for the newer, more robust oxygen generator and the cost-plus contract to get it developed?

Didn't think so.

So, spend slightly less on conquer^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hliberating countries so they're safe for democracy and DRM and we'll call it even.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[stlhawkeye]

A pilot was lost on a high atmospheric flight that, by American standards for where space "begins" and the atmosphere "ends", is often citied in NASA's casualty list. By international standards, this flight wouldn't count. I was being generous to my dissenter's benefit.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Moofie]

How much would taxes have to be raised? $.0000003? I think I can swing that.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Moofie]

Three aboard Apollo 1, 14 in the Shuttle accidents...

I'm missing one. Care to fill me in?

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you count civilians, the Soviets lost lots of people. There was a story a while back on cable...my memory is fuzzy...about how a rocket blew up on the launch pad and took out dozens (if not over a hundred) people.

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[grozzie2]

Thats for the work to actually design/build the unit. Now, to cover the bearocracy of a Nasa project, gonna have to add a few dollars to that estimate. Pork aint cheap these days, and costplus pork is never sliced thin....

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple years ago, it was estimated that a two year manned mission to Mars would cost $20 billion. Invading Iraq has cost the U.S. over $170 billion so far. The American people have barely blinked. There is no need to raise my taxes. Congress just needs to adjust its priorities.

Building a more reliable oxygen generator would probably cost less than the medium-sized town I used to live in has spent supporting the war in Iraq ($15,000,000).

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[Anonymous Coward]

Incidentally, NASA has lost a total of 18 people in spacecraft accidents, 14 while in flight. The Soviets (officially) lost 4, but supposedly there were at least 12-15 more deaths that haven't been declassified yet.

***********

Bullshit, urban legends and lies, invented by two right-wing italian brothers with CIA backing. Read about all these junk here:

http://www.lostcosmonauts.com/

Total rebuttal is here:

http://www.astronautix.com/astrogrp/phaonaut.htm

Re:How did the Generator Fail?

[NardofDoom]

I'm a Democrat and I opposed the war. And I would rather we spent more money on space exploration, but when someone saying "we should develop a better one" is like Bush's No Child Left Behind: an unfunded mandate.

And we can both agree that cost-plus has got to go; for every government agency..

Lack of air is a serious matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why wait until August? I would think that the main oxygen generator going down is a priority right now...not wait until the reserves are depleted.

Re:Lack of air is a serious matter.

[Pakaran2]

It's not enough reason to send a special flight up, which has significant fixed costs. In the same way, for an individual, running out of wiper fluid after completely filling the car may be a problem, but not worth a special trip to the store.

Suggestion: scrap it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Specifically, get the 'nauts off of the ISS before someone gets killed and we burn through another billion dollars on this POS. Then, give it to the DOD for shooting practise.

Re:Suggestion: scrap it.

[Lawrence_Bird]

Agreed. Its a total money pit. Sadly we can't get what
is already spent back, but better to stop throwing good at
bad. There are a lot of other (better) things that can be
done by NASA with that coin.

Re:Suggestion: scrap it.

[Rei]

To be fair, about half of the research conducted on ISS is commercial research - paid for by private companies and organizations. And seing as things keep on breaking (and broke all the time on Mir, too), I think we need a lot more practice with long-lifespan spacecraft if we want to be able to do things like send people to mars or build a moon colony, or (insert favorite sci-fi trope here).

Of course, I mostly favor unmanned probes, which are a lot simpler and cheaper, so you can get a lot more science done... but if the goal is to expand the human presence, these are the sort of things we need a lot more practice with.

Re:Suggestion: scrap it.

[Lawrence_Bird]

good points, but couldn't some of this 'testing' also be done
unmanned too? You don't need a guy up there to make sure
things are working 24/7, you can have remote sensing which
they already do have (I hope).

It also seems that by the time NASA puts anything in space
it is many years behind current tech. Have they considered
taking a more modular approach to things to make it easier
to upgrade/replace stuff?

Re:Suggestion: scrap it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest you become NASA-consultant. I'm sure they're eager to hear about your expertise.

It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[blcamp]

With the shuttle nearing obsolescence and this kind of substantial problem on the ISS, it shows just how fragile our space program(s) still are.

We need better, sturdier-designed equipment if we are going to make a serious go at space exploration.

Imagine if something like this happened on the way to Mars... Saturn... HD 2638 b...

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the NASA/JPL people were taking chances with it. It was nearing the end of its useful life anyway, so they deliberately chose this phase of the mission to take risks that wouldn't have made sense earlier. One of those risks was, you guessed it, getting stuck in a sand dune. That does not indicate a failure of the mission in any respect... it's just one of several ways it could have ended.

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Actually that's about the only point of the ISS that actually makes any sense. Actually running an oxygen generator for long periods to see if it actually works. That's actually necessary to test out for a Mars mission.

In practice, for the ISS, the recalcitrant oxygen generator is mainly just a nuisance, at worst, because it operates atleast part of the time, it still cuts down on the amount of oxygen that needs shipping up from the ground and leaves room in the supply vessels for other equipment.

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[fireboy1919]

And first on the agenda will have to be sturdier people.

We can't have any of these "I can't survive a decade in space because of muscular atrophy" problems we have now. They need to get on with building people that are at least as sturdy as our current equipment.

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[Rich0]

Actually that's about the only point of the ISS that actually makes any sense. Actually running an oxygen generator for long periods to see if it actually works. That's actually necessary to test out for a Mars mission.

Uh, why not just plug one in on the earth and hook an O2 meter to the output? Viola, you find out how well it performs over a long period of time. If you want to try out a different design or set of conditions, you can just reach over and tinker with it, and not have to send a shuttle into space.

Granted, this tells you nothing about zero-G performance, but that can be easily determined by sticking an O2 generator on a satellite with an oxygen meter on the output. You don't need to have a human being present to actually verify that the oxygen is breathable.

I'm all for making plans for long-distance solar voyages - especially if there is actually some reason to have humans present, or if there is some way to sustain an economy on another planet/moon/whatever. However, developing most of the technology to do all of this is much cheaper and easier if you don't actually do any of it in space.

If they can't even get the Biosphere project to work, how are they going to get a colony to work on Mars? Why don't we start with simulated space colonies on the surface of the earth first? If you can sustain a few dozen people in a dome for a few years on the ground, then feel free to start shooting them into space...

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[Dun Malg]

Uh, why not just plug one in on the earth and hook an O2 meter to the output? Viola, you find out how well it performs over a long period of time. If you want to try out a different design or set of conditions, you can just reach over and tinker with it, and not have to send a shuttle into space.

Because a mars mission will require more than just an oxygen generator. By the time you've assembled all the critical components into a testable system, you've essentially got most of a space station.

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that's about the only point of the ISS that actually makes any sense. Actually running an oxygen generator for long periods to see if it actually works. That's actually necessary to test out for a Mars mission.

There should be a moderation option for "Excessively uses annoyingly redundant adverbs."

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[utexaspunk]

I actually agree with you!

Re:It shows how fragile our space program(s) are.

[barawn]

Granted, this tells you nothing about zero-G performance, but that can be easily determined by sticking an O2 generator on a satellite with an oxygen meter on the output. You don't need to have a human being present to actually verify that the oxygen is breathable.

Out of curiousity, how do you think the oxygen generator actually works? It doesn't just generate oxygen from nothing. It splits it from water, which is heavily recycled from the rest of the station.

Without it being actually at the ISS, it doesn't experience the same issues it would in a clean-room environment - long-term buildup from incompletely purified recycled water, etc. You could run it in a closed-loop system (O2 generator feeds fuel cell feeds O2 generator) but that wouldn't work the same as running it in a large station, as you don't have the same contaminants.

Plus, given that water is brought up from Earth all the time, you'd never be able to run an O2 generator in a satellite for as long as you run it in the ISS without refueling the satellite. That O2 generator is quite old at this point.

Ground-based testing won't work as well. It simply won't. You're talking about a system based around fluids, and they will simply work much differently in zero-G as opposed to Earth gravity.

In fact, if you read the current problems, they think that gas bubbles may have caused the current problems. Bubbles act vastly differently in space than they do on Earth.

Obligatory.....

[Alibloke]

In Soviet Russia OXYGEN breathes YOU!

Re:Obligatory.....

[Gilmoure]

In Russian Soviet, lame are so jokes!

Re:Obligatory.....

[vorpal22]

Here... I'll fill in the rest of the obligatory unfunny stupid jokes so that we can get on with our lives and have an intelligent discussion on the subject of the ISS:

Obligatory old Korean joke: Only old Koreans get stuck with no oxygen on ISS.

Obligatory underpants gnome joke:
1. Run out of oxygen.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Obligatory beowulf cluster joke: The oxygen generators: If only they'd had a beowulf cluster of these.

Obligatory MS joke: The oxygen generator must have been powered by Microsoft.

Obligatory Apple joke: The oxygen generator was useless because it only had one button.

Obligatory all-your-base joke: All your oxygen are belong to us! Someone sent us up the parts!

Obligatory Strong Bad joke: SUFFOCAT'D!!!

Obligatory everything else joke: The thought of Natalie Portman, petrified and naked, while they eat hot grits poured down each others' pants should help them to stave off suffocation, or at least be happy about it.

Re:Obligatory.....

[Gilmoure]

I thought the suits in Korea were lamé.

Re:Obligatory.....

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot: "And I, for one, welcome our new oxygen-generating overlords, and would remind them that, as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their outer space water caves."

Re:Obligatory.....

[phoenix42]

in soviet russian oxygen generator breaks you!

Re:Obligatory.....

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot..

Obligitory Insensitive Clod Joke: I come from a methane-breathing planet you insensitive clod!!

In related news...

[elgatozorbas]

... the last food supplies only contained chili beans. Poor guys.

Re:In related news...

[Pete Brubaker]

A plethora of methane & sulfur dioxide and no oxygen generator.

Sucks to be them!

Re:In related news...

[int-21]

I also remember something about them being sent expired/defective deodorant a couple months ago..

Failed for good? Then why get parts?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mission managers say the unit has failed for good. Consequently, Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev and U.S. astronaut John Phillips will be relying on reserves until replacement parts arrive at the station in late August."

Why get parts for something that has failed for good?

Re:Failed for good? Then why get parts?

[LordEd]

"Why get parts for something that has failed for good?"

Wouldn't an air generator unit be a part?

Re:Failed for good? Then why get parts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Parts. Plural. Look it up. Parts also != replacement unit.

Read first, comprehend, then respond.

Russians built Skylab?

[FirstNoel]

And I guess we had the Mir?

Call me crazy...

[CyberSnyder]

...but I would be sleeping in my spacesuit!

Re:Call me crazy...

[szo]

and then you would die a few hours later. Big gain :)

Re:Skylab?

[calibanDNS]

You're thinking of Mir. Skylab was operated by the US.

No surprise

[houstonbofh]

A friend of mine works at NASA JSC. He has been telling me design nightmares for years. Last week he was saying within a year it will probably be deorbited. Design by committee does not work for space exploration.

Re:No surprise

[UrgleHoth]

Is this friend an anonymous source

Re:No surprise

[MonsoonDawn]

Your friend must work in a very tiny insulated box. These systems are so insanely complex it requires input from multiple sources. No one person could design everything.

Also, there is absolutely zero evidence to substantiate you or your friend's claim that the O2 generator failure is due to poor design.

Re:No surprise

[Rich0]

Well, while it probably should be deorbited for all the value it has, I doubt this decision would be made until conditions deterioriate to a point where it is impossible to sustain life onboard.

Nobody is ever going to admit that it was a mistake to ever build the ISS. As a result, nobody currently in power would ever make the decision to get rid of it unless it is to make room for something even more grandiose.

Re:No surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolute bulshit.

There is no way in hell that a decision to deorbit ISS could be made in time to actually do it in a year. Remember, it is also being operated by committee. That means nothing (not even end of service) is going to be quick or easy.

Re:No surprise

[EvilTwinSkippy]

That would be a neat trick, considering that calculations for a controlled re-entry require about 5000 pounds of propellent to be burned over the space 35 minutes.

The current engines on the station can't do that. A De-orbiting mission would require one, if not 2, cargo pods to help with the braking.

Re:No surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is ever going to admit that it was a mistake to ever build the ISS.

That statement is easily disproved. I now admit that it was a mistake to ever build the ISS.

Re:No surprise

[Rich0]

I meant anybody of importance.

Illustration in defence of point - your post was as an AC with a score of zero, so few if any /.'ers will ever read it, let alone anybody of consequence... :)

Re:No surprise

[houstonbofh]

With the right calculations, and enough time, you could do it with a model rocket engine. It is surprisingly easy to make something "fall." Just a little harder to pick where it lands...

I'm not worried.

[de_boer_man]

If the reserve oxygen supply starts running low, I'm sure they'll send up the space cowboys. Those guys can do ANYTHING.

NASA...we have a real friggin' problem!

[PenguinBoyDave]

Late August? Oxygen is a must-have (obviously) which seems to me that NASA and the Russians should bring these guys home...NOW.

If I was an Astronaut I'd tell Nasa this isn't at all acceptable. They are assuming that nothing is going to go wrong between now and then.

Even my linux box isn't that reliable.

Re:NASA...we have a real friggin' problem!

[Sir Pallas]

My Linux box is. It's running on 200 days of uptime, and that's only because I moved. As for oxygen, they have it. They're just not generating it. Really, they don't need to: it gets shipped up there regularly.

Re:NASA...we have a real friggin' problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

They have that Soyuz docked to the ISS. If they run out of emergency oxygen for some reason, that's a perfectly fine moment to evacuate. There's no need to be alarmist and take them out before then; it'd be a more critical issue if, say, the oxygen generator caught fire or an erratic electrical supply kept crashing the onboard computers, but (1) oxygen in the atmosphere stays around until it's consumed, (2) there's plenty of space inside the ISS for 2 people, and it stopped leaking ;-), (3) life support carefully monitors levels of oxygen and such; there would be warning signs hours to weeks before things got drastic.

So in short, the oxygen supply is completely predictable, and if there were an emergency, they can get back to Earth by just jumping through a hatch at the drop of a hat and riding Soyuz down home. Many less predictable things could go wrong much more catastrophically (like the fire on Mir), so these guys are risking their lives and need to be prepared to evacuate every minute of their time up there anyway.

Re:NASA...we have a real friggin' problem!

[DancesWithBlowTorch]

If I was an Astronaut I'd tell Nasa this isn't at all acceptable.

It's not like they can ask for anything. They're soldiers. They follow orders. And since there is no imminent danger, I don't see why they should abandon a multi-billion dollar space station because of a broken part. Sorry, but that's their job. Being an astronaut might be every kid's dream, but it is still friggin dangerous, too. They know that, and they will live through this.

Any mention of alien acid blood?

[FerretFrottage]

or is this just a "lowest price contractor-oh you wanted it to work" type of failure?

All I know based on all the sci-fi horror flicks is Don't open the oxygen generator door.

Re:Any mention of alien acid blood?

[mr_snarf]

Lowest price contractor?...NASA...uh, no :)

Re:Any mention of alien acid blood?

[Cecil]

Lowest price contractor? Russian Space Agency? Uh, yes!

Re:Any mention of alien acid blood?

[_Sharp'r_]

Umm.... since we are talking about an older Russian oxygen generator failing, the odds of it having anything to do with any kind of private contractor are pretty slim.

This is more along the lines of a "government factory turns out more crappy goods that don't work right" failure.

Re:Any mention of alien acid blood?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm.... since we are talking about an older Russian oxygen generator failing, the odds of it having anything to do with any kind of private contractor are pretty slim.

I hope for your sake you're not the gambling sort.

"[The Elektron] was developed and fabricated by a corporation called Niichimmash, also transliterated NIIKHIMMASH. In English, this means "Scientific-Experimental Institute of ChemicalMachine-Building," in Sergiyev Posad (Zagorsk), near Moscow. It also builds chemical rocket engines and other chemistry-related products, including for the Russian military."

http://www.jamesoberg.com/elektron2_tec.html

Re:Any mention of alien acid blood?

[_Sharp'r_]

Based on your information, I'd win my bet.

According to your link, "An experimental electrolysis unit was installed on the Kvant module that was linked to 'Mir' in April 1987. This was superceded by an operational unit, the first 'Elektron', aboard Kvant-2 launched in December 1989. " and "In 1992, visiting NASA engineers were shown an Elektron unit that weighed 110 kg and expended 3385 watt-hours per lb of oxygen". Presumably this is the model the current version in the ISS is based on, if not the exact same model.

Now check the company history, which reads "In 1992-1993 due to reorganization of state-owned enterprises they became privatized and transformed into joint stock companies. In October 1993 NIICHIMMAH was also turned into a joint stock company with 38% stake in Federal ownship."

So when this device was designed, they were a government institute, then later they were turned into a partially privately owned concern.

This reminds me of a song...

[east coast]

Twenty Minutes of Oxygen by The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Re:Must find

[ThatsNotFunny]

In Soviet Russia, Oxygen generates YOU!

Re:I uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you making fun of russian quality ???

Remember: it is 'bulky' russians that supply the ISS because US spaceships blow up for no (good) reason at all.

oblig.
In Russia, oxygen breathes you !

Re:Skylab?

[Anonymous Coward]

The US put up Skylab. It didn't stay up too long. The Russians (Er Soviet Union) put up the Mir, and I believe it lasted a decade.

ISS crew and solar emissions

[munehiro]

Slightly off topic, but since as I understand from this post there's someone up there, I'm asking myself about the possible problems the crew might have with the latest very strong solar emission. Sort of a billionth Xray machine exposure?

Re:ISS crew and solar emissions

[whynotme]

ISS orbits well within the region protected by the Earth's magnetic fields, so they won't have any problem. Geosynchronous satellites are going to be impacted pretty hard, but they're designed to withstand flares (although they may shut down temporarily).

The crew of a lunar or interplanetary mission would want to take shelter, though -- most mission designs include some sheltered space for that purpose. The shielding usually consists of a water tank that surrounds most of the shielded volume -- water is an excellent material for the sort of ionized particles thrown off by the sun in these events.

Re:ISS crew and solar emissions

[Anonymous Coward]

Waters rather heavy (or rather, dense), not to mention scarce. An alternative shielding that's been proposed is polyurethene; for the moon, it's probably more effective just to dig deeper. On Mars, you're probably SOL because the ground's full of frozen water (hopefully), and there's no significant planetary magnet shield, but maybe water would be a good choice in this case. Some research has gone into using magnetic shielding to emulate the Earth's field, which isn't that strong as magnetic fields go (although it's very, very big, a more important property for stopping charged particles from flying in and zapping all your nucleotides).

Re:ISS crew and solar emissions

[edxwelch]

Magnetic fields only effect charged particals, so gamma rays, etc will be a problem.

What's next

[MaGogue]

First they ran out of supply line(2003), then they ran out of food(2004), and now they are running out of oxygen. What will the next thing be? Will they run out of orbit?

Re:What's next

[StratoChief66]

Maybe money, or shuttles, or both.

Re:What's next

[snorklewacker]

Astronauts.

Re:What's next

[Inominate]

Don't forget the dead gyros!
Mir was functioning better than this in the last few years of its life. and ISS isnt even done being built yet?

Re:What's next

[g-san]

Well, seems to me if they don't get this fixed in 5 months, they will be running out of crew.

Re:ITS A DUPE

[utexaspunk]

why do y'all gotta bitch about dupes all the time? this isn't really a capital-N News site, it's a community. It's like the nerd table in high school. The articles serve as fodder for conversation- hypothesizing about the future, bitching about MS or whatnot, making stupid jokes, etc. So, sometimes people come back to the same topic, and even rehash the same arguments. Get over it!

um...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn- the RESERVE air will last 5 months!

Re:I uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

I dearly hope backup wasn't US built^^. At least they got a Russian Soyouz as escape pod.

Trial and error

[Tx]

It's frequently pointed out how reliable Russian space gear is supposed to be. But it's important to remember that their gear usually got that way by lots and lots of trial and error. Fortunately the Soyuz lifeboat, should they need it, is tried and tested - I'm guessing that oxy generator isn't (yet).

Re:Trial and error

[Anonymous Coward]

It is actually very much tried and tested.
It sometimes fails, but then it is fixed or replaced.

It will be remembered that after 10 or 15 years of spending money on a space station, NASA still did not have something similar they could send up in orbit. It was only after cooperation with the Russians that the ISS could be constructed and launched.

Re:Trial and error

[khrtt]

If you look back at history, the Russians lost the race to the moon before even having put a lot of effort into it. Since there were no second prize in that race, they switched their resources to long-term manned orbital missions, one of the stated reasons being to test out long-term mission tech. So, there:-).

Re:Trial and error

[Anonymous Coward]

It's frequently pointed out how reliable Russian space gear is supposed to be.

Unfortunately, with a few exceptions of equipment that has been in service for decades, that is nothing more than a myth.

...is tried and tested - I'm guessing that oxy generator isn't (yet).

That's the annoying part; the oxygen generator is a "known bad" design that was used anyway due to bureaucratic and political considerations.

International cooperation in space is a stupid idea. At the national level, people do not achieve great things by cooperation, they achieve great things through competition.

Re:Trial and error

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know how smart are the americans? Not much. There is a joke, that is not a joke actually, its true... that tells the story about writing in space... there is no gravity, so, what pulls the ink out of the pen? ... Many millions dollars inventing a gravity less pen to do this... who? AMERICANS. Do you know how Russia overcome this? Very easy... use a simple pencil! :)

Re:Trial and error

[petermgreen]

nice story but its not true

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

on-again, off-again fashion

[crucini]

There's the problem. They should have operated it in an off-again, on-again fashion. Then when it finally got stuck it would be on.

But was it a rectangular thing daubed with Rastafarian symbols?

Re:on-again, off-again fashion

[TinCanFury]

that operation could (and most likely would) cause the unit to fail sooner. plus, who's to say it failed off? maybe it failed broken, so it might be on and not working...

What?

[Gilmoure]

Napa doesn't deliver?

morale

[OglinTatas]

The oxygen will last for 5 months, but what about the booze?

I imagine the morale of those aboard the station, and of those tapped to rotate onto the station is pretty low. The actual space station is a half assed effort at space colonization, and a money pit nobody wants. It was concieved in the Reagan era and in a spirit of Glasnost (or whatever the buzz word was at the time) as some kind of international gesture or that would herald in a great age of space exporation, or at least international cooperation. But there was no real goal or purpose in building it other than building it, and all the countries that began work lost interest in finishing it, but no one wants to be responsible for killing it off entirely. (I'm too lazy to look up references, but there are modules that were never completed, and perhaps were never even started)

The loss of the use of NASA's shuttle was the biggest blow, since resupply by soyuz is barely adequate for the current crew, and there is no hope of actually putting a working crew up there without it. Expect the station to be abandoned by the time the shuttle is finally retired, that is, if the shuttle ever flies again.

I suspect that the only way to get a permanent presence off planet is through private efforts--i.e. companies that hope to make a profit from space. If I weren't destined to die a virgin, I would like to honeymoon there.

Re:morale

[gr8_phk]

"I suspect that the only way to get a permanent presence off planet is through private efforts"

More importantly, the only way to have a permanent presence off the planet is for it to be a self-sustaining presence. It needs to be on the moon (or any large solid body) so the inhabitants can expand their own space. Send construction workers, not scientists. Once there is enough there that people don't need to worry about things like food, water, air - then it could become a useful place to send people and do research.

Re:morale

[broter]

Once there is enough there that people don't need to worry about things like food, water, air - then it could become a useful place to send people and do research.

That points out the chicken and egg problem with space colonization. There's a lot of fundamental research that needs to be done in order to make permanent space habitation possible. The effects on physiology for extreme long term micro gravity (even lunar gravity might cause some surprises down the line), large scale construction with on site materials, reliability (remember that so far all structures we've built in orbit or on earth have a shelf life - even the nuclear missle subs go into dry dock to get refitted), safe and reliable excape routes, and the production of plants that can handle micro gravity and reproduce - or be reproduced - are huge investments that may not show a profit for many years to come.

At present, there are very few corporations who would be willing to suggest this kind of venture to their stock holders; and possibly none that would survive the resulting firestorm in the boardroom. Likewise, the kind of projects needed to push these areas of research aren't sexy and flashy, and so they probably won't get public officials reelected.

So how can we break the stale mate? Perhaps joint private/public ventures. Perhaps space needs its own lobbyist and leader to sell the benefits of space exploration to the average tax paying slob without overselling it.

Re:morale

[gr8_phk]

"There's a lot of fundamental research that needs to be done in order to make permanent space habitation possible."

You're one of those people in analysis paralysis. There are plenty of those around, what we need is people who like to take some risks and DO things. Structures? Go to the moon and start digging in the rock. Line it with some sort of air-tight "stuff". This way, they can always dig out new living quarters - and the more you work, the bigger your house! Plants that can provide food and reproduce in low-G... Hmmm if NASA hasn't identified these yet with all their years in space we should be shutting the whole organization down, not just the station.

I think you're right that public corporations won't do it on their own, but rich guys seem to be getting interested in space now. It's one of the few big things left to get into the history books (things of the "establish a colony off the earth" magnitude).

Maybe the semiconductor industry will go. A good floor and a little dust canopy and the moon is a great big clean room - nothing floating in the air. Need low pressure for CVD or something? Just go out back and fire up some plasma. Why do some people make everything seem so hard? ;-)

Re:morale

[Fyz]

They usually don't send scientists. That's for well established missions; usually they send pilots.

But I agree, and I think that whenever an effort to build a permanent settlement is made, they will send someone qualified to settle. They'd probably have to be all three: pilots to get there, engineers to build and scientists to make quicky and dirty solutions to whatever life-threatening emergency the colony is facing this week.

Re:morale

[shotfeel]

Don't forget the security detail with the red shirts!

Re:morale

[broter]

I take it from your replies that you're neither science nor engineering educated. Exactly what kind of air-tight "stuff" would you build your house out of? I'm sure we can come up with long lists of permanently secure materials after we look for it; but the point is we haven't ever built anything like it before and the first few attempts are likely to fail. As for plants in low-G, it might be obvious that all plants on earth have developed with gravity and tend to use it as reference to build the complex structures we call "food." So NASA inabillty to "find" them has more to do with them no existing than and (perhaps present) failure on NASA's part.

So you want to start a private voyage to space to setup a permanent habitat? Good for you. But where the hell are you going to get the investment from? Rocketry is almost a century old and we're only now getting to the point where private investors are willing to use their hard earned cash to try and make money from all the mature(-ing) science. Who the hell would give you money to try some hair-brained scheme that is at best centuries away from profit and would most likely fail spectacularly?

I wish modern investors thoughtr more long term, but they don't... ...but good luck getting to space anyway.

Re:morale

[broter]

all plants on earth have developed with gravity and tend to use it as reference to build the complex structures we call "food."

It's worth noting that the loophole here might be single celled organisms like yeasts with inserted genes to produce nice things like the essential amino acids, vitamins and like. But this is years away from production at the moment.

Re:Must find

[mr_snarf]

In Soviet Russia, Oxygen generates YOU!

Well, actually, in this case it doesn't :)

Space Station making nice passes right now.

[lecithin]

If you want to see the Space Station, it is making nice evening shows in the US right now. Just go to Heavens Above through your city in and watch it pass over.

It is as bright as the brightest star out there (Jupiter, yea not a star but you get it)

Re:Space Station making nice passes right now.

[geoffspear]

Not only is Jupiter not a star; it's also not as bright as Venus. The ISS is not as bright as either of them. It's also less bright than Sirius (the brightest star).

pitiful groundhogs!

[Thud457]

Mr Troll is indirectly shaming the US for not being competent to maintain the ability to build and maintain a space station.

Aparently some of the above posters are Americans, and hence too dense to grasp sarcasm.

And that special olympics in space is a national shame.

Armageddon Quote

[dr_dank]

Russian parts, American parts, all made in Taiwan!

Re:Armageddon Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

::groan::
What did I tell you?!? Don't touch anything!

Re:I uh...

[CarnivoreMan]

Well it was a Russian generator that broke down in the first place.. if the primary has flaws.. well I wouldnt be overly confident in the secondary unit. Am I making fun of Russian quality... .. I .. uh.. .. ...well, yes.

oxygen?

[cashman73]

All Your Oxygen, Are Belong To Us!

Somebody Send Us Up The Parts!

Re:oxygen?

[ricotest]

Somebody Send Up Us The Parts!

You need to study more Engrish, my friend :)

Re:oxygen?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to study more Engrish, my friend :)

What you say !!

Alternative Generator

[Gallenod]

How many and what type of plants would it take to convert the carbon dioxide exhaled by the astronauts and convert it to enough oxygen for them to survive? Would they still need periodic deliveries of fresh oxygen or would the plants provide enough? Can they keep enough plants alive in space to do this?

One of my favorite old science fiction films is Silent Running, with Bruce Dern. The premise was a little implausible, but the idea that we could be completely self-sufficient in space using biodomes (minus Pauly Shore) is still pretty cool.

Re:Alternative Generator

[StratoChief66]

I'm not sure but I think you would be trading having to store oxygen tanks for having to store water and fertilizer. Also, you would have to test what plant gives the most bang for your buck as the best earthborn producer of oxygen might not be so good at it in space. I believe trees are good at converting oxygen, but space and time constrictions restrict you from using many types of trees in space.

Re:Alternative Generator

[KlomDark]

Algae is the best oxygen generating plant, AFAIK. I know I read that most of the oxygen we breath is from Algae.

Now which strain(s) of algae is another question.

OK, just did some googling, and found this:

"Diatoms, along with dinoflagellates, these microscopic single-celled algae produce most of the oxygen on this planet. Here is an electron micrograph of Biddulphia showing the porous nature of the silicious diatom skeleton, and it's use as diatomaceous earth in coating and trapping particles in filters. And a shot of green live diatoms. These algae often are the cause of light brown "scums" or smears on aquarium walls or substrates; rarely as causes of "green water"."

From http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/a lgcontags.htm

Re:Alternative Generator

[OglinTatas]

"How many and what type of plants would it take to convert the carbon dioxide exhaled by the astronauts and convert it to enough oxygen for them to survive?"

Not sure, but I believe there was an experiment in Arizona which used a helluvalotta plants, and found that it wasn't enough. It was only a first attempt, though, and should give some idea what would be required for a permanet moon base --where you could also mine water and oxygen, so you needn't rely entirely on self sustaining ecosystem until you get it tweaked just right. You'd need extensive use of grow lights up there, with 350 hours or so of darkness in a lunar day.

Re:Alternative Generator

[Anonymous Coward]

Plants? Don't count on it. Look up Biosphere2. They had to let more fresh air in from the outside. (Was it the lack of plant capacity to scrub the air or was it the curing concrete? I don't remember which.)

Re:Alternative Generator

[Anonymous Coward]

Right on all counts. The good news is that the water and fertilizer problem is solved, quite handily, by the astronauts themselves.

Probably a specially bred algae and anerobic bacteria in a tank, digesting human waste (and *some* additional fertilizer/food) would be the way to go. Make all the food wrappers bio-degradable and chuck that in there too. Not only would it help with O2 generatin, but it might also help reduce the frequency of round-trips to the station for obvious reasons.

Re:Alternative Generator

[stevenaei]

there are lots of people working on ALS (advanced life support), including me :-) here are a couple of places to look - NASA and the University of Guelph in Canada.

Re:Alternative Generator

[Anonymous Coward]

They may produce a whole lot of the Earth's oxygen, but they're by far not the best at it, pound for poound (or rather, kilogram for kilogram), which is the more important thing for space applications. It has more to do with the fact that there's so much ocean on the planet; despite that, the amount of biological activity in the ocean is actually rather low.

Re:Alternative Generator

[Anonymous Coward]

So we should just FTD them some flowers?

Re:Alternative Generator

[KlomDark]

Good point! Any idea what the best is (In either lb/lb or kg/kg :) )?

Re:Alternative Generator

[whitis]

Algae has one advantage over regular plants - it probably doesn't care about gravity so there is no need to spin a section of the station to make artificial gravity and then try to reflect sunlight in. Ordinary plants try to grow "upwards", for the most part. The weight issue might be with the water the algae grows in more than the algae itself. Algaes efficency may be per photon rather than per pound.

RAID 0

[mushupork]

Ok, run a server w/o any fault-tolerance. The server fails, restore from backup, or just rebuild it over the weekend. Worst case: get fired. But *breathe* without fault tolerance...? Down here on Earth we have paramedics w/ O2 tanks. Up there they have a big box of nuthin if their primary fails.

Re:RAID 0

[maxwell demon]

Ok, run a server w/o any fault-tolerance. The server fails [...]. Worst case: get fired. But *breathe* without fault tolerance...?

Well, it's the same: Worst case: Get fired (from life).

Re:RAID 0

[Abalamahalamatandra]

Hey, I know this is /. but good grief! You really should RTFA.

Do you honestly think that a mechanical generator is the only way they have of breathing up there? In fact, there is 140 days' worth of O2 stored in a tank AND there are SFOG generators as well, which are also known as a "candle" - light it up and it generates oxygen.

And, even failing that, it's not like they'll die - there is always a Soyuz docked at the station to allow an emergency return.

Re:RAID 0

[Anonymous Coward]

Gotta wonder at who thought oxygen candles were a good idea. OK, we'll burn something to make oxygen. Smart. You'd figure there'd be a better way, but I guess that's the best simple technology available.

Re:RAID 0

[petermgreen]

there are essentially 3 ways to get oxegen in space.

1: CO2 or water (ie what the astronaughts breethe out). Nice idea but expensive in terms of energy and complexity.

2: Send up liquid oxegen from earth. Ok but its difficult to store and handle safely.

3: oxygen candles which make oxegen by chemical reactions. Expensive in terms of materials here on earth but almost certainly easier to handle than liquid oxegen especially as a reserve supply.

Re:ITS A DUPE

[caluml]

Well I never heard it the first time, so it's fine by me.
Admittedly, dupes where the two stories are on the front page at the same time....

Re:I uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

For some reason your post reminded me of a short science-fiction story (by Asimov, I think).

In it, one side of a war loses because they keep trying to improve their weapons. You see, they keep adopting new technology before it's really ready, and run into constant problems.

Meanwhile, their enemy just pumps out huge numbers of the 'old' weapons, and swarms over them.

Re:Oblig Red Dwarf

[rob_squared]

(in the vacuum of space) CONFIDENCE: Who told you you needed oxygen, huh? Some loser who was trying to make you feel small. Look, I'll prove it to you. I'll take mine off first. We'll soon see who the crazy one is around here!

from Armageddon

[fish_in_the_c]

"russian components... american components ... all made in japan... I'll show you how to fix it. ( flails wildly at components with wrech) This is how we fix things on russian space station. I want to go home. I don't want to do this anymore ( contiues flaing) equipment now begins to work properly and the survivors return home to tell the story.

What is an oxygen generator?

[MobyDisk]

This may sound obvious, but what does an oxygen generator really do?

What does it create oxygen from? If it takes it from compressed tanks, then it really isn't a generator at all. That would be like calling my gasoline tank a petroleum generator. Does it recycle oxgen from the air? Does it create it from some other source? We don't actually have a device to make O2 from CO2, do we?

Re:What is an oxygen generator?

[Loether]

Actually we do. There are several different methods. How Stuff Works explains it better than I can.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/space-station4.ht m

Re:What is an oxygen generator?

[Anonymous Coward]

The oxygen generator uses urine and other "waste" water, as well as the main water supply to produce oxygen, the link gives the details on how the Elektron O2 generator works

http://www.jamesoberg.com/elektron2_tec.html

Re:What is an oxygen generator?

[Abalamahalamatandra]

It uses water. More specifically, it usually uses distilled urine.

See here for more information.

And I heartily suggest reading Dragonfly by Bryan Burrough if you want a good read about these kinds of issues onboard Mir.

Re:What is an oxygen generator?

[DerekLyons]

This may sound obvious, but what does an oxygen generator really do?

What does it create oxygen from?

It takes water and splits it into H2 and O2. (2 H2O = 2 H + 1 O2) The O2 is then stored in a tank for future is while the H is vented overboard.

Re:What is an oxygen generator?

[DarthVain]

Its a fancy name for a "Tree".

The O2 generator must run Windows...

[TripMaster Monkey]

`_
/ \
O O
|||/
|\/|
\__/

Hey there, partner! It looks like you're running out of oxygen!
What would you like to do?

• Sob helplessly
• Regret your wasted life
  
• Go into hysterics
  
• End it all now
  
• Kill all your fellow astronauts to conserve the remaining O2
  
• Search for help on the Web
  
  

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[langelgjm]

Hardware Troubleshooter This troubleshooter is unable to solve your problem. You have run into a problem that this troubleshooter cannot help you solve. For additional Windows resources, click Start, point to All Programs, and then click Windows Update. O Okay, I'll try to get help elsewhere. Next | Back | Start Over

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[swb]

This critical error was caused by a device driver. Please contact your hardware vendor for device driver updates.

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[clem]

Can I CTRL-click multiple options?

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funniest
Post
Ever

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[DirePickle]

While that does look like Clippy, from one angle... It has another, far more disturbing look to it from another.

Re:The O2 generator must run Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

however, best post ever is still http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=44091&ci d=4592270

Entirely the wrong approach

[RealProgrammer]

Why don't they build a greenhouse up there?

Actually, a biosphere seems like the next logical step for the space station.

Make the greenhouse a disk:

• Spin it and make centifugal "gravity"
• Keep it to the moon's 1/6 G
• Put a convex mirror at the hub, reflecting some filtered sunlight to augment the artificial light.
• Play some Yanni. Plants love Yanni :^}

You'd have to be careful about mixing in animals, though. It'd be tragic if the animal population got out of hand.

A greenhouse would serve to keep the astronauts from getting too loopy, too. "Gardening", even hydroponically, would probably be a welcome change from the other crap they have to do all day.

Speaking of crap, a garden might be a good way to recycle other human byproducts.

Re:Entirely the wrong approach

[Zeussy]

And then a tiny flec of paint punches throught he plastic biome the whole thing deflates, pushes the station out of orbit, and some crappy Starbase 2009! Tv Series starts.

Hmm relaxing by gardening plants, I can see where this is going, surely the astronauts are high enough?

Re:Entirely the wrong approach

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

I dunno. I've seen Silent Running and gardening seemed to make the evil hippy guy go pretty loopy.

Re:Entirely the wrong approach

[Anonymous Coward]

>Why don't they build a greenhouse up there?

Like growing pumpkins under UV light to produce oxygene? This was the method suggested in WWII german space station plans. The orbital outpost would have a giant mirror to burn US cities with sunrays. The outpost would be serviced by saucers flying out from the antarctic raptile-nazi base.

Simpsons

[kevin_conaway]

Hey Homer, I'm worried about the air supply. After this case, and the other case, there is only one case left!

In Space...

[Deinhard]

...no one can hear you gasp for adequate funding.

Oxygen Generator is NOT broken

[Anonymous Coward]

They just forgot the generator's combination.

I don't know how they forgot 1-2-3-4-5, though.

Different meaning of "failed for good" I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Mission managers say the unit has failed for good. Consequently, Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev and U.S. astronaut John Phillips will be relying on reserves until replacement parts arrive at the station in late August.

I think you and I have different meanings of what "failed for good" means. If it truly "failed for good" then "parts" won't fix it. "New generator" would fix it.

of course, in that case we'd be seeing headlines like "ISS Abandoned".

OT Pedanticism

[CoderBob]

"Russian components...American components...all made in Tawain".

That will be all.

Failure == Good?

[Theovon]

Wouldn't it be better to say that it fails for BAD?

It looks like they had some 4-wheelin' fun

[wsanders]

on the way up that dune, not to mention. Remember, if you're not having fun, it's not worth doing. Time to sit back and have a few beers and figure out what to do next.

http://origin.mars5.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opp ortunity/20050506b.html

Who needs it!?

[IcarusMoth]

I mean all Oxygen does is show Lifetime movies and "Oprah after the show". And I think we can all do with less of that.

Survival of the Fittest

[Anonymous Coward]

And if one kills off the other, the reserve air will last for 10 months!!!

Wow, that's some nice cost savings. Oh, you have to kill someone to get it? We'll... leave it up to them. I'm sure we can trust those plucky astronauts to make the right choice...

Don't hold your breath - actually, do

[LordSnooty]

If I were ur there, I'd make damn sure that I took fewer breaths, and that those breaths were less frequent. And no yawning, guys!

De-Orbit the Thing

[rssrss]

We will never have a scientificaly useful space program as long as we continue to throw money down technologically obselete ratholes like ISS and the Space Shuttle. No sensible buisness person, or at least one who has to borrow money from a bank, would formulate a business plan that says: "I know that the project is a loser, I know that no matter how much I spend on it it will never fufil my goals for it, but I want to spend 5 years and billions of dollars on it because it isn't finished yet."

Its time to cut our losses. Shut down the Shuttle before it kills more astronauts and de-orbit the ISS before we waste more money on what has become a space going tenement. Then we should sit down with the Russians, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Europeans and see if we can come up with an international program that is based on good science and sound engineering.

Re:De-Orbit the Thing

[Telepathetic Man]

Gee, it sounds a lot like my computer habit.

That we know off

[Phelan]

While I agree with the statement to be the best of my knowledge, I would remind you to be caucious in accepting claims from any Soviet Government Department. I'm sure they would not be very forthcoming if they had lost people in space back then, hell if they overstate production of boots by a factor of 8 then they might lie about something really important too.

Re:That we know off

[Dun Malg]

While I agree with the statement to be the best of my knowledge, I would remind you to be caucious in accepting claims from any Soviet Government Department. I'm sure they would not be very forthcoming if they had lost people in space back then, hell if they overstate production of boots by a factor of 8 then they might lie about something really important too.

Yeah, there's really no telling. I was recently reading Heinlein's account of his trip to the Soviet Union back in the Bad Old Days, and there's an interesting anecdote about this very subject. He was there quite a while before Gagarin's flight, so this was pretty early on in the race. One day he's talking to a Soviet Air Force officer who boasts that the previous day's space launch was manned, and that they were the first into orbit. For a whole day, everyone was talking about how they were first into space. Then, suddenly, the official party line changed. It was only an unmanned test flight. And also, they'd lost contact with it. Nothing to see here, move along. Who knows how many of those there were, and how many were actually unmannned...

Re:That we know off

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, to be blunt - the people undertaking the endeavour knew the risk (they were pilots and in the military).

Many, many people die every day doing far riskier (and stupider) things, eg. base-jumping, free climbing, moutain climbing, rodeos, drag races, soldiering etc. etc.

It's highly doubtful that more than a few handfuls of people were lost, but even if it was as high as 100, this is still miniscule compared to the numbers of people dying every day from more prosaic things like driving cars, riding trains, or sitting in planes.

Re:That we know off

[Mycroft_VIII]

Actually I don't have a problem with it if they lost a few early tries at manned space flight (unless it was through obvious at the time stupidity). Those are the risks in that sort of effort.
What would bother me is that they would hide thier heros like that. That's the shamefull thing to my mind. These guys would have knowingly taken a very high risk only to be deliberately hidden from thier proper places in history.
People like that should be honored, not swept under the carpet.

Mycroft

Re:Skylab?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but when the Soviet shuttle Challenger blew up lifting off from Balkinor Cosmodrome, we were able to give them a big "I Told You So!".

Eh,

[2names]

I live next to 100 acres of forest. It produces more than enough oxygen for me and my family.

Maybe in the future I'll get very wealthy from the profits produced by my "oxygen farm." :)

Re:Eh,

[mikael]

Yes, but not when every one of 10 million people in the nearest large city want to cut down a few trees so they too can live in a house next to the forest.

Re:Eh,

[BawbBitchen]

> I live next to 100 acres of forest. It produces more than enough oxygen for me and my family.

Cool. Do you get to go and play with Pooh and Tiger?

balky, the shuttle program

[matt me]

balky
1. Given to stopping and refusing to go on: a balky horse; a balky client.
2. Difficult to operate or start: a balky switch; a balky engine.

sounds to me just a little like NASA's shuttle program. given the Soyuz capsule is as ever the lifeline of the ISS, NASA can afford to slip deadlines, but they owe russia bigtime for keeping peeps up in space alive for the last year. yes NASA have shown they can spray pink putty around for the press, but few of the internal targets for encouraging engineers to voice safety concerns have been met. tiles aren't a problem. beauracry is.

are there any figures on the cost of one-off soyuz missions compared to the 'reusable' shuttles? i heard NASA plan to retire them once ISS complete to work on new crazy thing needed for Bush's return to moon and go to mars plans. sounding like another step backwards to me.

lame cold war terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

notice when something is russian build that its "balky" ...

I'm sure if it was made the USA and failed, it would be "the o2 generator suprisingly failed" etc ...

They have Fault Tolerance, cocksucker.

[Anonymous Coward]

Two Oxygen Generators, and Oxygen generating candles as a backup. They have a 5 month supply of oxygen aboard the station.

Try reading the fucking summary.

Next time...

[barfy]

Don't be such a cheap ass, and buy the extended warranty!

Math

[slapout]

Hmmmm....oxygen supply will only last 5 months...resupply won't be here for 3 months....I'd start getting a little nervous....

Re:Math

[nsayer]

You were probably being funny, but...

I'd start getting a little nervous....

... Only if I were a NASA manager. The crew isn't even remotely in danger (at least, no more danger than they are generally in being in orbit). The worst case scenario here isn't death of the crew, it's abandonment of the station. If the CO2 levels get too high, they come back to Earth in the emergency descent soyuz.

Incidently, Space Sucks

[whimdot]

If the ISS is a useful science tool and it is part of the long-term aim of landing a man on Mars, wouldn't it be more interesting to tell the astronauts that there was no replacement on the way and that they would have to solve the problem themselves? This is after all, the situation they would encounter following a similar failure on a Mars mission. This would be one way of finding out which systems on ISS are genuinely essential, and which could be stripped down and the parts re-used for maintaining life-support.

Re:Incidently, Space Sucks

[jg_elliott]

This would lead to expensive equipment being ruined, just so they could salvage it for parts.

Re:Incidently, Space Sucks

[Dun Malg]

If the ISS is a useful science tool and it is part of the long-term aim of landing a man on Mars, wouldn't it be more interesting to tell the astronauts that there was no replacement on the way and that they would have to solve the problem themselves?

Interesting maybe, in a "reality TV" sort of way; but not at all reasonable. Presumably we wouldn't send out a mars mission without a shitload of tools and parts, and the craft would be designed specifically for easy on-site user maintenance. The ISS is a lot like a hotel-- if you've got any problem more serious than a light bulb out, you pretty much have to call downstairs and wait for the maintenance guy to come up with a spare part from the basement and fix it.

Re:Incidently, Space Sucks

[Nerull]

They would climb in the Soyuz lifeboat that they came up on, close the hatches, and come home. No reality TV shows to be had there.

Quaid, Turn on the reactor

[travvy]

Cohaagen, you got what you wanted; you must give those people air!

Re:Quaid, Turn on the reactor

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, they'll be home in time for cornflakes.

Does anyone have

[T-Ranger]

The FedEx tracking number?

I can be an Astronaut/Cosmonaut yet!!

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I thought my frequent need to urinate would be a detriment to going to space.... instead I will be an asset... a life saver!!!

Assuming the oxy gen was working...

Hope they got the units right this time...

[Ribald]

A month down the road:

"Hey, guys--bad news. Turns out we were using the consumption rates in gallons of oxygen per minute, when we thought we were using liters! Heh, sorry about that."

"Guys? Hello?" ...

--Ribald

Re:ITS A DUPE

[Shadow Wrought]

It's like the nerd table in high school.

Best description of Slashdot. Ever.

Re:Must find

[ganhawk]

Naw...more like

In Soviet Russia, Oxygen de-generates YOU!

Use green, edible, CO2 breathing plants

[UnapprovedThought]

"We need better, sturdier-designed equipment if we are going to make a serious go at space exploration."

That's why space stations need large gardens full of plants that inhale CO2 and exhale O2.

Although a field of plants would seem to be heavier than their mechanical counterparts, the plants are self-reproducing: no manufacturing required. They can start out as tiny seedlings that grow on the ISS, and once you have a lot of them can be transplanted to an empty Mars mission spacecraft. You would need a lot of water and some nutrients, but those can survive just about any radiation and go on a much cheaper cargo launch.

As long as fairly generous environmental ranges are observed, plants are systems that are unlikely to fail -- they repair themselves from radiation damage. With a sufficiently-sized farm on board a Mars mission, it might actually be possible to extend the mission if a launch window is missed.

Re:Business Plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it's not that outrageous of a business plan. Just look at Netflix for example. They keep loosing tons of money year after year just to get more subscribers. The idea is that you get more subscribers and reduce your net loss until you finally break even (whenever that is!). The space shuttle is like that. Just keep using this piece of junk until we get the ISS built and the new crew orbiter and then we'll have a pad in space and a new "car" to get us there. In the meanwhile we can try and do some scientific stuff also.

It's really cool to look and see how businesses actually run. Nothing like the text books, that's for sure!

Don't put a biosphere up there

[rdunnell]

I fear outer space is not ready to take Pauly Shore back from whence he came.

woops?

[SComps]

Published under license from FLORIDA TODAY. Copyright © 2005 FLORIDA TODAY. No portion of this material may be reproduced in any way without the written consent of FLORIDA TODAY.

Let's hope they got permission or nobody from Florida Today reads Slashdot. *grin*

Please fill in the blank...

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that the only way to get a permanent presence off planet is through private efforts--i.e. companies that hope to make a profit from space.


1. Spend billions establishing a space program.
2. Spend billions more because it really is that expensive.
3. ????
4. Profit!!!

And don't try explaining how Burt Rutan showed how to reach the stars fo $49.95. SS1 was cool and all, but in the end, it was really just a really big (expensive and so far unprofitable) carnival ride. Space, real space, is a whole 'nother level and is going to cost piles more, even on the cheap.

This is what we get...

[suitepotato]

...for doing everything on the cheap, rushing through everything while taking forever to do it, and letting the public's whimisical and capricious nature guide our space program.

We are not now, but someday will be at the point where if we don't get off the planet in a sustainable format, we won't be able to at all after that point due to lack of resources: technological, social, and energy. Imagine an Earth with a planetary population of fifteen billion, schismatic fighting over resources, and no cohesive will to even try to see common ground for the survival of the species.

That day is coming and in that world, how do you expect to do the major housecat herding job it would be to get enough of the wealthiest and advanced nations on the same page for a space colonization effort?

Instead we dilly-dally with the attitude that "it's only moon rocks and photo ops" and "we need to deal with problems right here". We won't have a right here to deal with if we don't make the human race an ongoing proposition. Top down forcing of changes in human behavior have never worked and all the fanatical self-righetousness of the environmental movement isn't catching on and won't ever.

We don't change under pressure very well and need the breathing space and serenity to do it. Try kicking a cigarette habit while simultaneously remodelling your home, refinancing your mortgage, getting two vehicles fixed, having sick family in the hopsital, and having a full desk at work. Now try it when you have three months paid leave and no problems on your plate.

So we need to get off Earth in a meaningful sustainable format right now, make sure that any event down below won't take out the species, and use what we find out there to better our lives, and we need to do it now.

Instead, we're using Russian O2 generators with known issues, and doing things without much more advancement than what we used to go to the moon in 1969. It's 2005 and you'd figure a planet that can make civilian houses nearly air and energy tight could do as well with environmental support on an orbiting tin can.

Re:This is what we get...

[elrous0]

We are not now, but someday will be at the point where if we don't get off the planet in a sustainable format, we won't be able to at all after that point due to lack of resources: technological, social, and energy.

Well, there are many problems with that scenario. Here are two

1) Barring some HUGE advancement in propulsion and the unlikely discovery of another nearby solar system with an earth-like planet, there is nowhere remotely survivable to go.

2) The effort to make any body in our own solar system survivable would so dwarf the effort that it would take to make this planet survivable for a much larger population (i.e. higher protein crop yields, new ways of extracting energy, more efficent use of water, etc.) as to be a no-brainer.

All the Solyent Green/sky is falling enviromentalist/"There is Life Out There"/Trekker wishful thinking won't change that reality.

-Eric

Re:This is what we get...

[Dynedain]

nstead, we're using Russian O2 generators with known issues, and doing things without much more advancement than what we used to go to the moon in 1969. It's 2005 and you'd figure a planet that can make civilian houses nearly air and energy tight could do as well with environmental support on an orbiting tin can.

You think that "civilian houses" are "nearly air and energy tight"?? Wow...thats.....amazingly naive of you. Even cleanrooms are nowhere near air-tight, and they don't even have the problem of dealing with a vacuum. Ask yourself why your home can have roaches, rats, mold, termites, ants, or anyone of a million other "natural" occurances. Air=-tight....thats funny.

Re:This is what we get...

[benjamindees]

how do you expect to *snip* get *snip* a space colonization effort?

Quietly, very quietly.

5 months?

[earthbound kid]

One thing that always bugged me on Star Trek was that if any alien started draining the power supply, life support system would always be the first things to go. The ISS is a tin can compared to the Enterprise, yet they somehow manage to have a 5 month supply of air just floating around. Meanwhile, the Enterprise still has more than enough power to run phasers (which must use unbelievable amounts of power to disintegrate stuff), shields (which must use as much power to absorb that energy), impulse engines, warp drive, etc.

I know, I know, "suspension of disbelief." It just seems like it would be more plausible if life support was always the LAST thing to start failing, instead of the first.

Re:5 months?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the phasers stop working you can't fight off the bad guys well enough to survive. I.e. life support doesn't do you any good if your enemies still kill you.

Re:5 months?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sounds like the military mindset. I suppose if Starfleet were less courageous about defending the principle of the week but more practical, they'd just pump up the warp drive and ditch everything else.

Re:5 months?

[David Horn]

No, the clever bit was that when they ran out of power for life support, everyone immediately started gasping for air.

Re:5 months?

[garwain]

Of course, if the phasers and shields failed first (wow say that ten times fast) and they had plenty of power for life support, it would get boring watching the enterprise get blown to bits ever 3rd episode...

Ironically...

[Critical Facilities]

Engineers at NASA were quick to dispel rumors that there had been a communication breakdown within their organization. Reached for comment at their 2 bedroom apartment, between shifts at Wal-Mart, Air Supply, http://www.airsupply-online.com/ said they were "deeply saddened". Associates at Amazon.com stated that they "only ship what was ordered" and take no responsibility at the misunderstanding. Developing.....

Look on the bright side

[WormholeFiend]

They'll never run out of slashdot comments about them

Well..

[jrushton]

Id say its a pretty safe bet noone who reads "Florida Today" reads Slashdot!

Re:Well..

[SComps]

LOL and of course it got mod'd offtopic to make sure nobody sees it anyhow. Mods have little to no sense of humor these days. :)

Did anyone else read that as...

[Anonymous Coward]

"ISS Doxygen generator fails for good?"

Then again, most poeple who use ISS don't use Doxygen or anything...

I've been waiting since 1978 to say this

[Anonymous Coward]

Chewy! Replace the negative power coupling!

Re:I've been waiting since 1978 to say this

[Anonymous Coward]

That was The Empire Strikes Back, 1981.

Re:I've been waiting since 1978 to say this

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello! McFly! 1978 is metric for 1981! Jeeze, you gotta explain everything around here.

Re:ITS A DUPE

[utexaspunk]

I dunno, because maybe the editors could be bothered to read their own damn site once in a while if we complain enough?

CLEARLY, that has been disproven. I don't think y'all could bitch about it any more than you do, and it clearly isn't working.

There are occasions where slashdot feels like a community ... it's becoming more the exception than the rule.

probably because it's overrun with whiny bitches like yourself...

Real life?

[Now15]

I thought this was the cliffhanger for last season's The West Wing

Re:fill in the blanks

[WalterSobchak]

Please, please mod the parent way up.

A news item like this without "In Soviet Russia ..."? We can not let that happen!

Alex

Parent is on crack

[Anonymous Coward]

That story was about a separate failure 4 months ago. The generator was fixed, a new supply ship and a new crew have since arrived. This is about how this new failure appears to be permanent.
Explain to the rest of the class how this is a dupe in any form or fashion. I'll bet you can't do so without implying that every linux kernel release story is a dupe.

Oxygen Generators

[Yonatanz]

Ever wondered how oxygen generators work?

Re:Oxygen Generators

[DerekLyons]

Ever wondered how oxygen generators work?

That link tells you how aircraft emergency oxygen generators work - but the ones on ISS use a different principle, described here.

Do I mind having to pay for it?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, actually, I don't.

This is absolutely one of the most critical
components of a long-term life support system.

And, one good design could be used over and
over again for a very long time.

So no, I don't mind paying for it, and in
fact I look forward to paying for it.

(Although, I think this particular system is
a perfect candidate for a Centennial Prize.)

Hopefully

[Luthair]

they'll cover shipping for warrentee repair.

We're working on it.

[carambola5]

We're working on it on two fronts:

1. More experiementation to study the effects of low-g and zero-g on plants: Plant Research Unit
2. Miniature greenhouses for growing salad crops and recreation for the astronauts: Vegetable Production System

Disclaimer: Yes, I am affiliated with the above links.

Re:We're working on it.

[autophile]

2. Miniature greenhouses for growing salad crops and recreation for the astronauts

I just had this weird image of astronauts on the ISS running through a greenhouse, throwing lettuce at each other and giggling hysterically.

--Rob

Re:We're working on it.

[Motherfucking Shit]

2. Miniature greenhouses for growing salad crops and recreation for the astronauts

I just had this weird image of astronauts on the ISS running through a greenhouse, throwing lettuce at each other and giggling hysterically.

At least you have the good fortune of a clean mind. My mental image involved female astronauts and cucumbers...

Re:We're working on it.

[gtkuhn]

Plants aren't gonna solve this. ISS started with 3 of the last Elektron units in the world. Company is gone, genius who tuned and tweaked every flight unit is dead and never passed on his trade secrets. Each Elektron unit puts out 1900 liters of oxygen per day. You would need some kind of turbine plant to spew air like that.

Re:We're working on it.

[siriuskase]

Need to send up some HW hackers to reengineer the darn thing, assuming someone hasn't passed a law against reengineering.

Welcome to Slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

> so that we can get on with our lives and have an intelligent discussion on the subject of the ISS

Dude, you're supposed to save your best jokes for LAST... ;-)

On second thought...

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Maybe that isn't so far fetched:

Disaster a year away if ISS is abandoned

Numerous potentially fatal problems during construction

ISS Flying with 800 safety problems, some potentially fatal.

Cool

[RealProgrammer]

Tomato plants as a group are very interesting. Did you know that if you put a hole in a 5-gallon bucket, with a tomato plant upside-down in the bottom, fill it with dirt, and hang the bucket from the handle, the tomato will happily grow down?

I'll bet with only a tiny "g" to keep them untangled that there are many creeper plants that would do very well in space.

Re:Deadman's Float

[Doc Ruby]

Starting Score: 1 point
Moderation -2
100% Troll

What, the Russian spacemob has TrollMods running an antiastroturf (Secret Agent Orange?) campaign? Because they obviously don't have any counterarguments, though they obviously don't like the truth.

Well...

[citizenklaw]

I for one welcome our failed oxygen generator overlords...

Ahh, actually?

[EggMan2000]

Actually that's about the only point of the ISS that actually makes any sense. Actually running an oxygen generator for long periods to see if it actually works. That's actually necessary to test out for a Mars mission.

:) 5 "Actually-ies" in 3 sentences. (emPhahsis is mine)

It didn't break

[Anonymous Coward]

HAL: "It can only be attributable to human error."
or
HAL: "I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you."

We don' need no stinkin' okzigen!

[luxuryluke]

[Hand striking cheek] We all know that when the oxygen generators start failing, the carbon dioxide generators fail to operate as well. Isn't the ISS large enough that there is a Hollywood section developed by the gen-xers at NASA to house an Oxygen Bar stacked with hotties? Everytime you release carcinogens, god kills a rainforest cat.

Aggie/Polack/whatever joke

[fabu10u$]

"Boy, if that last one goes, we'll be up here all day!"

It's Okay...

[Anonymous Coward]

They still have plenty of beer.

Come on...

[Eminence]

Everybody is laughing but this not funny, it's not even pathetic... Something is really wrong here. What happened to our suposedly great civilization that we can't even make one oxygen generator that won't break up - and no one thought of installing a second one up there! I don't know what to think, but looks like this whole space exploration is just a joke. Now, better to spend cash on another part of Star Wars rather than on a try to reach the stars for real. Is so much easier...

Aero News Net

[LakeSolon]

As usual, if you're interested in this sort of news ANN covers this sort of things more closely and much more promptly. They posted about this several days ago.

~Lake

Re:Aero News Net

[LakeSolon]

Grr.. I hate it when people drop the http:/// from their links, making it relative and thus pointing at slashdot. Now I've gone and done it. ANN is the correct link.

~Lake

Perhaps

[Anonymous Coward]

They should re-consider the offer to trade with the GELFs on the dark side of the moon?

I hear the Kinitawowi tribe have a spare OG unit in stock.

Late August?

[dtfinch]

They're cutting it a little close aren't they?

Yes, very well done. Next!

[leonbrooks]

I was actually quite surprised that I had to blip over so many comments to find someone who'd picked up on that.

I wonder if we could have a "+0, Inevitable" mod? (-:

Re:Yes, very well done. Next!

[Fallingcow]

I know, it was the first thing that came to my mind, and I came in so late that I figured it'd already be posted. I assumed that it'd be +5 or +4, so I just did a search for "evil" on the page... nothin'. Heh.

Are Oxy generators a lost artform?

[gtkuhn]

I finally found the article I remember reading a few months back: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5953450/ From the article there...

The three Elektron units on board the space station are the last of their kind. The company that manufactured them has gone out of business, and the engineer who almost single-handedly made the final adjustments of flight units died several years ago. Reportedly he retained some "trade secret" about the final adjustments of the devices -- and it died with him.

Wikipaedia says America will have replacement units similar to the mighty Soviet era Elektrons around 2008.

Here, have a clue! They're free!

[mlyle]

It's a first approximation based on pessimistic assumptions. It assumes the car always uses 70 amps of electricity; obviously this can't be true or the 70A alternator would never be able to charge the battery. Also, the 70 amp alternator is only rated as such at relatively high RPMs, and under typical driving will provide considerably less. Also, the 70 amp alternator needs to charge the battery under worst case load-- that is, at night, with the windshield wipers and fans on, driving in stop and go traffic. The wiring resistance you mention is insignificant and most of it applies whether discharging from the battery or using the alternator. In other words, assuming a 70A constant draw from the battery in the absence of the alternator is extraordinarily pessimistic.

The A-Hr rating of the battery is based on a particular discharge rate (for car batteries, I believe it is C/1; for the AGM batteries and Li-Ions I use in my designs C/20 or C/30 is usually specified). That is, you can discharge it at a uniform current for one hour and get the rated power out. So the capacity will be slightly less than the specified capacity if we really are consuming 70A constantly (which, as noted above, is fallacious). If we're drawing 45A, though, you'll get an hour before reaching the specified cutoff voltage at which the battery is assumed to have no further capacity (and a little bit of time below 11.5V beyond that). Assuming 45A is very reasonable based on the above and the sample pessimistic power budget I did in the parent post (which came up with a calculated draw of about 35A).

Even if you're drawing power at a rate greater than C/1, you will still get a very large portion of the battery capacity. It is true that car batteries are not designed for deep discharge and that repeatedly discharging them is bad for the battery; that being said, I got away with driving without a functional alternator for a week, charging my car's battery each night.

I've been lead design engineer for plenty of battery powered systems and have done plenty of power budgets before. What's the basis for your statements? If you want to bet, I'd be happy to put a shunt resistor between the battery of my old Saturn and the onboard equipment, and the onboard equipment, and disconnect the alternator to measure current draw. I can also provide nice discharge/capacity graphs if that would be helpful.

Re:Here, have a clue! They're free!

[Mycroft_VIII]

I wasn't working from numbers I had and mistakenly assumed you were working from ideals. My fault there.
That said I Know from a case where I had a purely mechanical failure stop an alternator (belt went, not slipped for a while then went, it was nearly new, rock or something hit it and sliced it). The battery was about 3 months old, and it was about this time of year.
I've heard simular time frames from friends and relatives. All anectedotal, but no 'hours' or even a full hour like some here are claiming.

Mycroft

going slow

[Phist]

Everyone thinks it's a great idea but no one wants to pay for it.

The problem right now is global cooperation. The technology is there, the power is there, not enough agreement.

How can you use the ISS as a "safe haven" then?

[flowerp]

Remember the shuttle flights were intended to ONLY go to the ISS because it offers a safe haven for a shuttle crew of 7 or 9 members until there is a replacement shuttle readied for launch in a hurry (which still can take 4 or 5 weeks)?

Well, guess what. Without oxygen supply for a total of 9 to 11 people lasting 5 weeks, this is no longer an option.

HA

[2names]

Good one! I haven't thought about the 100 acre wood in years.

Testicalos non Droppos

[triso]

...The effects on physiology for extreme long term micro gravity (even lunar gravity might cause some surprises down the line)...

There will even be sterility problems for the men if the testicles cannot maintain the desired temperature through the normal aide of earth-like gravity.

a greenhouse: Entirely the wrong approach

[Shadowlore]

Why don't they build a greenhouse up there?

Because growing plants in space would require massive amounts of radiation protecting glass. As in, several feet thick sheets of glass, plus the mass to protect the rootside from radiation as well. This amount of mass is simply too much to do today. Even in LEO, the radiation would be too much for the plants without it. It would also be needed for thermal regulation.

Absent the glass shield I mentioned, the direct (or reflected) solar energy would fry the plants and produce nasty thermal variances. No, artifical lighting is out of the question due to the sheer power it would take to do that on any reasonable basis, especially one for oxygen production. At best AL is a supplement, not the other way around.

Further, greenhouses need water because plants need water. Water contains oxygen. So you would still wind up shipping oxygen albeit in a different form. For the purpose of having oxygen, you are better off simply shipping oxygen. Water is much more a difficult and costly launch item than hydrogen tanks.

As far as waste disposal, again, there are issues. You can not simply dump core into a field and consider it done. There are significant and important differences between black water and grey water handling and reclamation. Most biological resources for this are dependent on many factors, and take massive amounts of land and combined systems to do it. The agbio-filtering process of the various (human) wastes is neither minor nor fast. Again, a lot of material to ship into space.

Overall, given the mass you'd need to ship into orbit, you are better off in the long run to take that mass budget and send people to Mars.

Mars has most of the mass and resources we'd need to create an off-earth food/water/air production facility as well as waste refuse[1]. It is cheaper to send stuff from Mars to LEO than from Earth to LEO. It sounds strange, but it is true. The delta-v difference is quite large.

This process is one known as mass-leverage. You send smaller amounts of mass from the deep well to a shorter well. The facilities in this shorter well then take that mass and convert it to more products(mass) and send it out.

This is one reason I expect we'll first build a space elevator on Mars. As odd as it sounds, the "road to Mars" will be built from Mars if we are smart about it. Mars has the resources we need to produce the materials for tethers and a Martian Space Elevator (MSE). Further we currently habve the materials with enough strength to build it today. Not to mention the environmental challenges of wind and such are much less of an issue on Mars, as is the rabid concern about it breaking and wrapping around the planet slicing everyone to ribbons. ;)

Produce the MSE and use it to put the tether in place in Mars orbit to send from Mars to HEO. Send a tether to HEO. This tether is then used to catch/throw between HEO and GEO or LEO. Then you use your tether system to add the tethers for GEO and LEO.

Now you have a system by which you can grow the resources needed by LEO stations on Mars, raise them cheap as hell on the MSE, and send them to LEO via the Mars-Earth Tether System (METS). This will be far, far cheaper than Earth to LEO launch.

Once this is in place, you use LEO launches to get payload destined for Mars to LEO, then the METS to get it to Mars. This would be people and/or supplies such as machinery and products still produced on Earth for Mars. Now, your cost for Mars destinations is LEO.

With this system in place, Mars can send the mass for LEO/GEO stations ranging from supplies to hull materials in the early days, with Earth supplying the lightweight and more complex electronics gear. With few exceptions, terrestrial boosters only need LEO capability. This is particularly the case once the METS is used to make a GEO station. With this in place you use LEO boosters to get even GEO destined sats in LEO, then use the LEO-GEO tether to GEO. Tele-

Re:a greenhouse: Entirely the wrong approach

[RealProgrammer]

Very informative.

Even though artificial oxygen recycling is way more space-efficient than using plants to do it, machines break down. On the other hand, plants do require maintenance, and relying on a green system means you'd better not have a "potato famine" kind of failure.

I don't see the difference between radiation shielding for plants versus that for humans. Wouldn't the amount of shielding for plants be less-than-or-equal-to the amount needed to protect us? Couldn't you use the "greenhouse" itself as a shield for the rest of the space station? Keep it always between the sun and the rest of the station. That's one benefit of spinning it, gyroscopy.

The solar reflector is just there for aesthetics.

You could use a parabolic mirror (populated with some density of solar cells) to focus sunlight onto a smaller area, which would then bounce the light optically onto a dome at the center of the hub. You'd vary the efficiency of reflection for each bouncing surface in order to achieve filtration. Some combination of mirror diameter, reflective efficiency, and solar cell density would provide enough electrical power to provide the artificial light and also the reflected sunlight to mimic the sun seen from, say, San Diego or Oslo.

The point is to make it feel Earthy.

As far as human waste reclamation goes, yes there's a difference between grey water and black water. But there have been advances in sewage treatment over the last few years.

For instance, a multichamber tank about the size of a Camry, actively stirred and filled with the right mix of organisms and chemistry, can turn the sewage output of a single family home into potable water. If you're careful not to flush Really Bad Stuff, the sludge is nontoxic. A variant on that process could output brown water to feed to plants (or rather, the microbes in the dirt the plants are growing in) instead.

A space elevator unworkable, in my O. The problems of tethering, harmonic vibration, wind shear, icing, temperature variance, and eventual collisions with objects in space are too great to overcome. Plus, you still have the gravity well to escape every time you use it.

Oh well, thanks for the info.