Slashdot Mirror
Blackberry Future Uncertain
Dave White writes "Research In Motion and NTP have failed to reach a settlement in the Blackberry case. It looks like the door has been opened for NTP to be granted an injunction blocking the sales of Blackberry wireless messaging devices in the US. The New York Times (free registration yadda yadda) has the scoop on this interesting development."
http://bugmenot.com/view.php?url=nytimes.com
Who needs logins now?
RIM and NTP Reach An Impasse
Research In Motion said it has reached an impasse with NTP Inc. in finalizing a patent dispute settlement and would take court action.
The two sides had reached a settlement in March with RIM agreeing to pay $450 million to NTP to settle the patent litigation. In return, RIM was granted an unfettered right to continue its BlackBerry-related business without further interference from NTP or its patents. "We are extremely disappointed and I am personally extremely disappointed that this matter which we believed was resolved has been reopened by NTP," Jim Balsillie, RIM chairman and chief executive, said in a conference call.
He also emphasized the terms agreed to in March "were clear and unambiguous. "For nearly three months now, RIM has been working in good faith to complete the process and obtain the final license and settlement documents," Balsillie said. According to RIM, NTP refuses to honor its obligations under the term sheet and finalize the definitive documents. Calls to NTP went unanswered. RIM said while it is unsure of the outcome of the court's decision, it is reviewing any potential accounting implications and has already set aside and will continue holding on to the funds to make the settlement payment.
bugmenot.com login info:
onzinad
ONZINAD
"What does slashdotting mean?"
"You've never heard of slashdot?"
"I know it makes websites not work."
We need a hundred of these types of losses -- where patents directly affect the public. Let the public get comfortable using a very necessary and nice technology, and then let some crappy company come out of nowhere and extort their way into an injunction and removal of the widget from the marketplace. The company (RIM in this case) should then perform a recall on all devices that infringe on that patent - notifying the users of their equipment exactly WHY they are being forced to give up their Blackberries.
Then we'll see how long it takes to reform the patent system!
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
Doesn't matter -- the Treo 650 is killing the Blackberry anyway. Once I found I could manage my servers with PalmVNC on the Treo, that was it for me.
Listen fellow moderators, RTF posting before moderating "informative."
Mine lasts for days on a charge. My service provider charges $30 a month for unlimited data. How is that raped?
This is because when I read the headline, I thought the Blackberry's future was uncertain because of a massive sales/advertising/marketing assault from Microsoft. I understand M$ is also selling it's own version of a Blackberry....How wrong I was!
Because clearly, Blackberries only exist so that your bosses boss can send you an email with a sig at the bottom that says "sent from Mr. Big's Blackberry (while rolling down the hgwy in his Z4).
part of the problem is, RIM got the patent office to reexamine 8 of NTP's patents regarding the technology, and so far the PTO has come out with rejections on each proceeding they've done.
this adds a layer of complication to the infringement case, as no doubt some part of the deal rested on the outcome of those proceedings.
Last I checked Rogers [provider in my area] was around 60-70$/month and even then there were limits..
It depends I guess on where you are. I guess it was ok for people with unlimited business accounts, but for personal use it was useless.
As for battery life I guess I was mistaken [I seem to remember hearing stories about it but that was a while ago].
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
The company I work at recently yanked all blackberry devices and replaced them with Treo 600 and treo 650's.
the fact that you dont need any "special" software to access email and has the capability of viewing doc and excel attachments was the death spike for the blackberry here at this company.
and honestly, the treo's have much better sounding audio for phone calls than even the latest blackberry's did.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well Tom, in the real world, you need to have the ability to work under pressure. You need to be a well rounded person that can admit that you don't know everything.
That's what the RIM interview is meant to test, along with technical knowledge, they want to know if you are actually capable of working in the real world. You could be a genius in your specific area, but if you don't listen to your supervisor simply because he's not as specialised as you are, then you would be a useless employee.
I used to work at RIM (back when they only owned 2 buildings). They are not a bunch of smartass punks, they're a bunch of intelligent people looking to hire other people who are intelligent and not smartasses such as yourself (I'm basing this on your own admission to your behaviour in the interview, if you say that to the interviewer, what will you say to your boss?). A few words of advice, if you think you're all that, and RIM's interview process upset you, I wouldn't recommend applying to Microsoft or Google, or any big tech company... they make everyone do puzzles... and not every interviewer is as specialised as you are, that's why they're looking for someone with those skills. But I guess that would have required some sort of thought process outside of crypto-math to figure out... my bad...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
I for one am interested to see what kind of patent it is to have the power to demand 450 millions. Is it called "Device that send out e-mail wirelessly" or is it just the thumb keyboard? After reading the story it doesn't seem to give me the full picture.
The thing is, they have to give you a bunch of extra tests during the interview. They are just trying to find the best person for a job. Granted, I find many employers take a little far, but they are just looking out for their own interestes. I'm sure most companies have ran into a problem of hiring completely the wrong person after a not thorough enough interview process. They put you through a series of tests, in order to see not only if you can do the job, but also handle the pressure. This is important when you are working on a project that may have strict deadlines. The other, and probably most important thing they are looking for, is how well they will get along with you when working with you. They want to make sure you don't have a bad temper, and will be in a good mood on most days. The only thing worse than working with someone who has no idea what they are doing, is working with someone who's always pissed off, Or for that matter, someone whos personality just conflicts with the rest of the team, no matter the reason.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
instead of "yadda yadda" each time you link to NYT. Like this:& q=ntp+rim
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8
Final talks in a patent infringement lawsuit involving the popular BlackBerry e-mail messaging device have reached an impasse, the two companies involved said Thursday, raising the possibility that the BlackBerry service could be banned from the United States market.
What I don't get is how the Blackberry, being so popular with members of our legislature, wound up on the wrong side of a patent lawsuit. To wit: Legislative Branch Subcommittee Hearing on the FY05 Budget [2004]:
In the past two years, the Senate provided BlackBerry devices and updated electronic pagers to Senators and key staff. The number of BlackBerry devices in use at the Senate continues to expand. Every office has a Senate "Group Alert" telephone system and approximately 1,000 telephones throughout the Senate are connected to the System.
Can't imagine someone informing members of the Senate they have to turn in their favourite devices because they're no longer legal.
I constantly get 3 days of battery life on my BB 7750. I don't know where your 10 hours of battery life is coming from.
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
but a Blackberry is the only mobile device that actually adds-value to wireless communications. Really... who needs a cameraphone to communicate? Do we need MP3phones?
It is time for the US Gov't to use the power of Imminent Domain to put this rights case in the hands of the common good.
Well Tom, in the real world, you need to have the ability to work under pressure. You need to be a well rounded person that can admit that you don't know everything.
I consider myself "in the real world" - but I dismiss the idea that I don't know everything. Don't be fooled. I am omniscient - even if recall and other trivia are sometimes problematic.
OTTAWA, June 9 - Final talks in a patent infringement lawsuit involving the popular BlackBerry e-mail messaging device have reached an impasse, the two companies involved said Thursday, raising the possibility that the BlackBerry service could be banned from the United States market.
The two companies, Research in Motion of Waterloo, Ontario, which makes the BlackBerry, and NTP, a small patent-holding company in Arlington, Va., reached a settlement in March to end an infringement suit that is three and a half years old. R.I.M. agreed at the time to pay NTP the unusually large sum of $450 million to end the suit.
On Thursday, however, it was apparent that negotiations to reach a final settlement had failed.
Late Wednesday night, R.I.M. asked a United States federal court to enforce the settlement reached in March. Meanwhile, in court papers filed Thursday, NTP denied that the settlement was ever clear-cut, and urged the court to reject R.I.M.'s request.
In a conference call Thursday with analysts, James L. Balsillie, the chairman and co-chief executive of R.I.M., said he could not comment on the specifics of why the talks had foundered, citing a confidentiality agreement between the companies. He emphasized, though, that R.I.M. had not tried to alter the settlement's terms, and blamed NTP for the impasse.
"This is an enormous amount of money, one of the largest settlements in the history of any patent system," Mr. Balsillie said. "I'm at a loss to understand what in the world one would want beyond that."
In its filing, however, NTP said that it had pressed R.I.M. for a complete set of documents detailing the terms of the agreement during three days of negotiations in March.
"Nevertheless, because of R.I.M.'s pressing need to leave town, the signed agreement was limited to a vague, ambiguously worded term sheet," the court papers said.
NTP had won the right to ban Blackberry e-mail in the United States in an earlier court decision, but that ruling was suspended when R.I.M. appealed. In its filing Thursday, though, NTP said that if no settlement was reached, it would again ask for an injunction on the sale of BlackBerry pagers and e-mail service in the United States. Research in Motion is dependent on Blackberry sales in the United States for about 75 percent of its revenues.
Gregory E. Upchurch, an intellectual property lawyer in St. Louis, said that about 80 percent of the time, courts enforced previously announced settlements. "Courts are in the business of resolving disputes," he said.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
That's because the point of getting you to do puzzle is to see how well you handle wierd situations and/or a changing environment. Also shows how creative you are I guess, and how good of a team player you are (you'll be up for any challenges, regardless how ridiculous it is?) Some people would of probably acted very puzzled (no pun intended) towards being asked to assmble one, which would of not been the reaction the interviewer was looking for.
PS: Battery life is more like 5 days (although the site says 8) of standby, and 3hrs of talktime
...That this is the first site/article I've opened on my blacberry in a week. Sure wish /. Had a more mobile-friendly format. Actually, I'll take /. Working in my firefox first!
This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
I'm thinking that they may not even care how you did on the tests. All they wanted to see is how you handled pressure, and how nice it would be to work with you when you are under pressure. If you flip out, and make comments such as you did about some little test in an interview, imagine how you are going to react when there are real problems to solve, that have real pressure, because they could affect the entire company, and just your little interview.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Take a look at the Blackberry platform. The Blackberry Enterprise Server (BES) is a middleware server designed for the deployment and administration of applications. This is not for Uncle Has-Every-Toy.
There is no money in consumer devices unless done on a Very Large Volume and are tied to usage or rental fees. Business is where the bucks are at.
This week Microsoft announced they will begin doing push email for all Windows Mobile devices from Exchange. This was the last key differentiator for RIM. Without that, they are simply just another Cell Phone / PIM / Email device. Oh and Microsoft is giving this away for free, so no need to buy RIM's enterprise software.
Hoyty
Why did you switch from Cingular to Verizon?
crap
According to this court document, the infrigments concern:
- Claims 15, 32, 34 of #5,436,960
- Claim 8 of #5,625,670
- Claim 199 of #5,819,172
- Claims 28, 248, 309, 313, 317 of #6,067,451
- Claims 40, 150, 278, 653, 654 of #6,317,592
These patents can be found here:5,436,960
5,625,670
5,819,172
6,067,451
6,317,592
These patents look to me like they would cover just about every PDA and cell phone on the planet today. Is RIM a target because of their popularity?
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
I'd like to see a law passed that says that while you may be granted a patent on an invention or idea, if you fail to produce a viable product based on it, the patent only lasts half as long.
Too many companies seem to be using their patents as blocking mechanisms to keep competitors out, or as a way to extort money from other, larger, firms.
Chip H.
Just as I received two 7920's, with a third on it's way, and placed a $3000 order for their Enterprise software. Strong the forces of irony are.
it's more like NTP's patents are DOA, and RIM doesn't owe them a plug nickel ...
Question Authority before IT questions You
Yesterday evening, I have attended to a play in Paris. My neighbor could not wait for the end of the play or for the interval: he had to check his blackberry often... Some blackberry users become slaves. I hope for them that 'blackberry' will disappear...
le souvenir d'une certaine image n'est que le regret d'un certain instant (M.Proust)
1. Dream up and outlandish idea you have no clue how to implement and patent in obscure wording
2. Go into coporate hybernation and wait until someone much smarter implements idea.
3. Sue smarter company for all their hardwork and ingenuity.
4. Profit!!!
I hate parasites.
The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
I work for a very large Canadian Government department and I would say 9 out of 10 employees here have a Blackberry (supplied and paid for by the department). We are talking about very large numbers here. I assume things are similar in other departments. These devices are not going away anytime soon, at least in Canada.
This is a very very sad case.
Why in the world is a company like NTP even allowed to exist. Why are ppl given patents before even coming up with a product.
I think what NTP has done/is currently doing is very wrong. Why should a company like NTP that just dreams up ideas and does nothing to actually develop them being given patents? They do very little to foster innovation. They do very little to employ people. They pretty much do jack diddly squat.
This is wrong in so many ways.
There are 3 other parties that are also responsible for the BS. The patent office that actually gave them the patent (flawed patent system), the corrupt law firm representing the case, and the Judge who ruled on this case and cannot see right from wrong.
[1]Email messaging device have reached an impasse, the two companies involved said Thursday, raising the possibility that the BlackBerry service could be banned from the United States market
[2]
In its filing Thursday, though, NTP said that if no settlement was reached, it would again ask for an injunction on the sale of BlackBerry pagers...
Q1 2005 stats
PalmOne: 614,750 units shipped (from 834,591 same period last year). Market share 18% from 30%
RIM: 711,000 units shipped (from 405,000 same period last yesr). Market share 20.8% from 14.8%.
RIM subscribers at 3MM from 1MM 16 months ago.
20% of RIM sales are from Europe
I'm thinking that they may not even care how you did on the tests. All they wanted to see is how you handled pressure, and how nice it would be to work with you when you are under pressure. If you flip out, and make comments such as you did about some little test in an interview, imagine how you are going to react when there are real problems to solve, that have real pressure, because they could affect the entire company, and just your little interview.
"Hire the attitude, train the skill."
This is exactly what they were trying to find out about you, and you failed miserably. Soft skills count, even for engineers, developers, etc. (I am one, and I got my job based primarily on my attitude, secondarily on my technical skills). Remember, someone else can walk in and learn your skills. They'd rather have someone they'd like to work with above all.
unfortunately, because we only have three, we are unable to get our network provider to allow us to use anything more spohisticated than the 'Mail connector' which is an UNSIGNED activeX control which you have to download and it pushes the mail from the desktop to the device. you cant access old mail with it, only what you receive when the Mail COnnector is running.
once the contract is up we will be binning them and getting windows mobiles to replace them - it might be more MS vendor lockin, but at least it does what i want it to do. our network provider si Vodafone, so if you are considering getting a small number of Blackberries, i woul explore other providors - they may be no better (o2 are certainly Fuckign Abysmal at everything they do - unlikely to be any better at this.)
I'm originally from Waterloo, Ontario, where RIM is located. They've grown at an incredible rate in recent years, but not in an "we'll eat your soul" kind of way. They've reinvested strongly in the community, and have donated a TON of cash to charity and other ventures. For example, the founder of RIM donated $100M to found The Perimeter Institute, a theoretical physics center where researchers and eggheads can basically sit around and think about cool stuff without worrying about budgetary or governmental pressures. A lot of what I see from RIM reminds me very much of Google. Become an industry leader, and STAY an industry leader for the right reasons. This story makes me somewhat sad, as the company suing them appears to have been "created" specifically for this reason, and they don't actually create anything that benefits anyone, except lawsuits that benefit themselves.e n/
Perimeter Institute can be found here:
http://www.perimeterinstitute.com/index.php?lang=
If you're ever in Waterloo, I suggest you check it out. One of the coolest buildings I've ever seen.
Surely the best way to force a reform of the patent laws is to use them. Imagine this: All the pro open source / free software people start applying for as many patents as possible, covering any technology related matters, and the broader they are, the better. They then donate these patents to a new organisation whose goal is to look for infringments of these patents by large companies, and then get money from them. The money is used finance the organisation, and any left over is ploughed into various open source endeavours. If that doesn't force the big companies to buy new patent laws from the american government, I don't know what would.
"Can you help us out a bit? Release 6 is scheduled to go out on Monday but something isn't quite --"
"Does your little problem involve multiplying large numbers or any kind of crypto-math?"
"No, I just thought you could take a look at --"
"Figures. That's not what I was hired for. Now if you'll excuse me it's 4:59 and I'm going home."
That's the kind of employee I would not want to hire.
All three of my clients with Treo 650s have had at least one return due to defective units. One is on his third.
Blackberry? Same numbers. Except there's about 75 installed users who are still on their first units...
I've got a 7230 by my side right now. 5 days continual usage, and battery is now at 60%. That is pretty darned awesome performance.
Its a fantastic example of well implemented technology, aimed squarely at the right market. It does just what it says on the tin, no bells or whistles. Nothing comes close.
Yeah, you're probably right. I'm sure if I actually used the BB 7750 it wouldn't last very long. I mean I only use it for corporate email, weather reports, contacts, calendar, Google services, ... oh yeah and a phone!
-Nick
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
Got a 7230 here, connected via a BES to a mailbox that takes in a couple of thousand mails per week. I leave it on to make sure the date/times sync up nicely.
Typically get over 7 days usage, thats left on 24 hours a day. Right now, after 5 days, its at 50%.
Anubis is alive!!!!!!!1111!!!111oneone
How is this insightful? I'm a Ph.D. computer scientist with more than 20 years computing experience in a variety of areas. I have a long list of employers who will talk glowingly about my problem-solving skills. If RIM or Google or Microsoft or whoever tried to give me a puzzle-solving test in a job interview at this point in my career, I'd walk out.
One of my closest friends walked out of Sequent on this basis some years ago. He's now one of the most successful (and employable) computer people in the industry. As for Sequent...dead dead dead. Speaking of which, how is RIM doing these days?
Puzzle-solving tests in interviews may be appropriate for folks who haven't already solidly demonstrated their problem-solving skills in their application domain in some other way. For the rest of us, IMHO it's really a bit insulting; on the order of a hazing exercise. A certain class of manager will predictably reject folks who are unwilling to be hazed. I don't have much interest in working for those folks.
Umm, more money? And if you're the tinfoil hat type how about the fact that MS want to get their hands in the Blackberry cookie jar so bad, would they entice NTP, like SCO, to do something like this?
I personally think it's just for more money. I mean this is coming from a company that doesn't manufacture any products, contributes nothing and just sues others due to the fact that they own patents. Surely an organization of such calibre wouldn't resort to something like this ;)
Finally I turned around "do you know how to build a cryptosystem or multiply large numbers quickly?" The guy said no and I said "figures."
I was pissed about how superior they felt they were. These are the types that spend little time in society and don't understand that just because you can't do their specialized problem like they can doesn't make you inferior.
I'm gonna leave this one alone... it would be like beating a child...
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
You need the whole story.
I was prodded to apply to an open job at the company that had todo with security and software development [not solely crypto mind you].
I applied.
They send me a puzzle.
I finished it [got a small bug in it but it worked mostly].
Then he drove up to Ottawa to meet me [he was on other business] which was cool. During that interview he proceeded to insult my brother [who was working for the Government of Canada at the moment] for not finishing university saying "he wasn't qualified to be around computers".
Then he proceeds to rip into the projects I've done saying they have a small-scale user base and I don't know what the real world is like "yet".
He gives me another set of puzzles, which I apparently solved faster than he did originally [his words not mine] and was in the middle of giving another puzzle when I asked him about the bignum bit.
I don't mind jumping through a few hoops to show off my talents [hint: libtomcrypt.org] but I have my limits.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I have used my blackberry as a personal device for about a year. I get around a week of battery life on my 7280. If I browse the net and download files it still lasts around 3-4 days. (I have 3 months unlimited right now)
.5MB of data) It's enough data for getting email and checking movie times/weather once in a while.
I'm on Rogers in Canada and my plan is only $45. (150min anytime calling /
Cell phone companies are lame. Where are 500min phone plans for $20-$30??.
or hiptop 2 - from danger, is a totally superior device anyway. predictive text is for suckers.
-- http://www.criticalassets.com
Never used a treo, but can you print from it?
Again, since it has to be said, the test is mostly not about your problem solving skills. From what you've said, you probably could solve the tests but it is your attitude that you're above doing what your (potential) employer asks you to do. Your expertise can likely be found elsewhere and as a small employer I'd rather have an employee that attacks a challenge than one that doesn't care all that much.
As to Sequent, both Google and Microsoft give these tests and they seem to be doing ok so there doesn't seem to be cause/effect between giving tests and not doing so.
It's about those that still have the spark and those that don't. It seems you've lost yours.
They have a hard time attracting new employees. Most potential employees are too embarrassed to ask "How can I get a RIM job?"
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
'Course, you know what they say about money and fools...
I have no tag line
This isn't just a case of NTP vs RIM, but NTP vs all push-email companies. Supposedly their patents bars companies from delivering push email without paying a license fee to NTP. NTP already has license agreements with Nokia, Good Technology, and are eyeing more ...
Microsoft lawyers will be watching this case very carefully. Especially with their upcoming release of Mobile 5.0 with "Direct Push Email". I doubt Microsoft wants to pay license fees to NTP for every Exchange Server 2003 license they sell.
NTP has a huge stake in this, it isnt just about $450 million, but future licensing revenue from Nokia, Good, and Microsoft.
getting dumped on them. NTP is just a small patent-holding company in Arlington, Va.
RIM has the hardware and the network.
Let RIM put out an email and a static page on all their devices out there saying that they are being forced out by NTP.
We'll see how long NTP can stand being in the palmtop communication device marketplace with nothing to show for it but their dick in their hand.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
From what I've heard your sister and mom star in porno flicks that prominently feature Tom Delay and a very well hung stallion. It must be true because I heard it somewhere, which is why I'm posting it on /..
I'm a Blackberry user through NexTel. The service is the same price as my T-mobile service was and the battery life of my 7510 and 7520 were exemplary, especially given the amount of e-mail I have forwarded to the device.
It's not a good product for several reasons [not all of which are technical] and I for one would be glad to get rid of them.
None of which you elaborate on.
They're a bunch of smartass punks anyways. I went through the job interview process with them in Waterloo and they'd sit you down todo puzzles. Finally I turned around "do you know how to build a cryptosystem or multiply large numbers quickly?" The guy said no and I said "figures."
Backstory: They were hiring me for my crypto-math knowledge not to see if I could quickly write programs to solve geometric puzzles [which while fun is a bit nerve shaking during an interview].
Now the truth comes out, you don't like the company because they didn't hire you because you couldn't solve the puzzles and you came off like a dick in the interview. Now who's the "smartass punk" here?
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
I have to agree... the idea of puzzles at an interview is insulting, and doesn't tell you anything about an applicant's ability to the the job.
There are many problems with doing a puzzle, anyway. What if you're not good at the type of puzzle, or hate puzzles, or your brain is a little fried after bad traffic getting to your interview? Now you're cast aside because while you can write great algorithms, you have trouble figuring out some stupid gimmicky puzzle on the spot.
This just makes it harder for people to get their foot in the door, and harder for an established person to get into a company. It might not kill a company, but it will keep out some of the best employees. This means that eventually, your competition will eat you alive.
Now maybe the PHBs at my company can find time to do some useful work, instead of forwarding messages from their Blackberrys all day long...
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Did the puzzle involve depressing the scroll wheel of a poorly-backlit LCD device at _just the right time_ while driving with your knees?
They're not on Rogers. The other carriers are cheaper but don't have the coverage. Now that all 3 cell carriers are part of a phone/cable monopoly (fido = rogers), I don't expect things to change either.
I won't start on my customer service issues here, but I'll say that right now, I'd be happy with 500 minutes without over charges, and some sort of credit if I don't use all my minutes.
What we need is an American carrier and number portability before rates will drop.
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
$45 also includes voice, but your point is good.
Have you looked at Pylon Anywhere ?
>This means that eventually, your competition will eat you alive.
:)
Unless they like puzzles too