Slashdot Mirror
Retailers Press For Unified HD DVD Format
datemenatalie writes "While the war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray continues over who will be the direct successor to DVD, the Video Software Dealers Association (VSDA) has issued a strong statement to Hollywood and the consumer electronics industry regarding the looming HD format war. The statement, which supports a single high-definition disc format, also offers advice on dimensions, packaging, features and even how marketing materials should be designed. The statement argues, "two formats, each capable of storing high definition movies on DVD, are planned for release into the market. Retailers uniformly agree that the concurrent distribution of more than one format is likely unsustainable, and that the launch of a single format is preferable to a format war which could confuse the public and lead to reluctance to embrace either format." This comes just weeks after early indications that HD-DVD will only allow playback of full 1080 resolution video signals through HDMI connectors, leaving consumers with older HDTVs (pre-HDMI) out of luck."
So yeah, they are rallying for a single format. Plus ten for style, but minus several hundred for insisting that the copy protection be severe, including the prohibition of analog HD.
Xesdeeni
which format offers more pr0n? (blu-ray) That is the answer. That is always the answer.
... ya think?
That for once these format developers can just agree on a single standard and stick with it. But, I think that will be highly unlikely. They will fight it out at the consumer's expense for a few years then finally settle down on a single format.
:P
By all rights, Blu-ray *should* be the next-gen standard. It is superior in just about every way. Which, studying history, means that HD-DVD will probably win out in the end
You are who you are, let no one tell you different. But, never close your mind to a new point of view.
This comes just weeks after early indications that HD-DVD will only allow playback of full 1080 resolution video signals through HDMI connectors, leaving consumers with older HDTVs (pre-HDMI) out of luck.
This could be both good and bad for HD-DVD. Film makers will like the HDMI only for the DRM capability. On the other hand, consumers who are not ready to upgrade their TV's will shun away from them. It's going to be a toss up.
~Belly
send both of them out into the market, then see whichever "wins" and is the most successful? I mean, it's a terrible marketing strategy, but wouldn't it work?
Competition is good! Let the market decide! Let the best format win! Even if there isn't a clear winner then people will have a choice, which is good too. Crap, I am sick of this organization of or that organization dictating what I can or cannot buy/think/do.
1080 = 2*2*2*3*3*3*5
But that HDMI fact I did not know about. To me, that really, really hurts HD-DVD as a format. My TV supports HD up to 1080i, but has no HDMI connectors. So the format is entirely useless to me if I want to buy a TV. I just bought a TV.
Blu-Ray already fits more space per disc. I really see little reason at this point to not say "let's just go blu-ray, start retooling machines, and let the price come down." I hate the fact that Sony has its grubby mitts on it, but I'd rather have a format I can actually use without having to buy entirely new hardware. Just a player.
This is great politicing. Everyone reads: "One format is better than two." Sneak in the copy protection through the back door. I want Blue-Ray to win personally, but right now I just want a frickin' 'HD'-DVD player - and content for it.
As far as I'm concerned they can keep it. After all the BS surrounding +R -R & RAM DVDs I'm not willing to even think about it.
They're going to be the same size as current DVDs and CDs... Haven't they figured out how annoying those dimensions are? Just barely too big to fit in a pocket.
If I think something is funny, I will probably mod it +1 Insightful. "It's funny because it's true."
My name is, erm, Paul Preamble, and I would like to point out that if you release HD-DVD formats, then it will take oh so much longer for me to re-encode them to xvid so it will fit onto a cheapo CD, and be more easily attainable through P2P applications.
So I urge you, as a consumer, please keep your bit rates low, and consider us warez geezerz.
Otherwise I will just have to draw upon the dark powers of bittorrent, that evil protocol, and distribute gigs of high resolution video to all my l33t friends on the w3b, you know, d4rkh0rz, m@niac, l0tt0rz and b4dger. (their real handles have been changed to protect the innocent)
Kindly,
Tod^H^H^H Paul
[X] Post Anonymously
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
No thats ok... we'll use your format. No... I insist, lets use yours. Right, are we capitailist or what. Somebody just needs to feel important be releasing the formentioned article. I love how they denote the general population as stupid,"which could confuse the public". Thanks, I've always known I was dumb!
I eat Karma for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That's why I don't have any.
Me and several of my friends won't buy any new tvs until they sort out this whole format mess. I could go out and buy some 5k monstrosity that is bigger than god's ego, but I refuse to deal with the fallout of a bunch of coporate idiots that can't compromise.
Their loss.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
sometimes I'd want to see another messy product war just so the manufactures behind the format war to see it's a no win situation for anyone. I guess most people forgot about the VHS vs Beta, or MD vs DCC (well, this one really isn't a war. since both lost to CD-R)
Screwed again. Why am I surprised?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The consumer electronics industry will always have "compatibility wars". It was no different with the 56K modem wars (X2 vs K56Flex). Consumers: Don't go out and by the latest HDDVD player if you aren't prepared to have a worthless heap of circuits laying around 2 years later. Case in point: my very own K56Flex modem, retailing for $89.95. DOH!
The statement, which supports a single high-definition disc format, also offers advice on dimensions, packaging, features and even how marketing materials should be designed.
Seams to me that they have already decided which one they want, and are trying to push it on Hollywood (probably for their own profit as well).
Hd-DVD or Blu-ray..
HDMI = BAD
however.. for blu-ray.. unless you have a HDCP enabled device on the DVI (-d) cable then your only gonna get 480i.. or perhaps 480p anyway..
SO.. they both suck..
but blu-ray sucks less because atleast component out is still going to be available and you don't have to by an interface box.
The chinese will fix it however.. shhh.. you can already get HDCP disabled devices, just don't let hollyweird know. Leave it to a communist regime to set the capitialist markets straight.
Is the adoption (or lack thereof) of DVD-Audio/SACD due to format competition? Nope. Much like CDs, DVDs provide more than acceptable quality to the masses.
A quick google of "HDMI analog converter" yields several interesting links, one of which is a device that removes HDCP encryption from an HDMI/DVI signal:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12115
If the format war isn't resolved, retailers could unite behind one format and force the issue by not stocking titles that are in the other format. It would take a nearly united retail front, but it would certainly be possible and would probably be in the consumer's best interest. The guys backing the other format would change their tune rather quickly if retail sales were stagnant.
Personally, I don't see either standard as being that successful. While I'll personally enjoy the better picture from a HD DVD standard, I don't see the average consumer willing to switch over.
DVD was successful because in addition to picture and sound quality, the format offered quite a few advantages over the prevailing standard VHS tapes. The new format was more durable (could be played over and over again without degradation), portable (smaller, easier to store), easier to manage (no rewinding, could easily jump to any portion of the film) and provided the viewer with quite a few new valuable features (extra features, commentary, switchable subtitles and foreign languages etc.)
A HD DVD standard only offers the advantage of better picture. I just can't see regular people willing to invest in new equipment and update their video libraries just for that, and in turn I don't see publishers being motivated to offer a large amount of titles in the new standard.
Sure, I'll buy it, but that's because I'm a dork and I like fancy electronic equipment, especially if it shows off the capabilities of my HD TVs. But most people aren't dorks (heck, a lot of people still prefer full screen versions of DVD movies).
The Internet is generally stupid
The document published by the VSDA appears to set out a large number of criteria, all of which they seem to rate as essential for the end product. However, the fact that they've released this now, instead of when the new standards were under development would lead me to believe it is biased in the direction of one of the established formats and is more of a party piece to try and rally retailer support behind a particular format (HD-DVD springs to mind). Not to mention the talk of two competing formats being unworkable, and the need for a single format..
Business Voyeur
I have to agree with the VSDA on this. It just makes far more sense from a media vendor's point of view to have only one format. Look at VHS vs. Beta. The market wouldn't sustain them both. Eventually the public went with the more popular, but lower quality alternative. The fact is, one would become more popular than the other for whatever reason and people would end up going with what their friends have so that they can share.
Additionally, as mentioned, the confusion would cause a delay before a lot of people bought in because they'd want to see which one became more popular. All-in-all, I think the format war is pretty stupid and it's a war everyone would lose. They should select the one that will satisfy the most people and go with that.
Victory will go to the format that allows end users to make use of the features they have on the existing HD equipment that they have already purchased. Basically, we will have to see who caves in to the demands of the market first. However, if they attempt to go full speed ahead with both formats, it is very likely that neither of them will make a significant gain and DVD, the existing and convenient technology, will continue to be the mainstream. While there were several benifits of DVD over VHS, it may be difficult to get consumers to see the benifit of the additional HD features if they cant use them without investing in newer HD equipment. Hollywood's quest for the perfect copy-protection technology may be undermined by existance of an entrenched format that has good quality, features, and flexability that, while inferior, is very convenient.
HD is already slow to be adopted. While this has nothing to do with OTA transmission, it will likely hurt public acceptance of HDTV once again. Let's all just wait and see if there is an even more newer-newer-newer standard we'll be forced to switch to.
Letter To Iran
you want to thoroughly fuck Blu-Ray from behind?
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
An HDMI to DVI converter should fix that
The other 6 of those years was, in my personal theory, due to DVD. DVD came out at just the wrong time (from the consumer's perspective). DVD purchasers in the late 90's thought they were getting HDTV. The manufacturers, I believe, let this myth continue and held off on HDTV-DVD so that all the consumers could finish buying all their movies in DVD, before they learned the bad news that they would have to buy them all over again in HDTV-DVD.
The only technology that is more laggard than home entertainment is space exploration.
"We just have to get the pr0n industry behind Blu-Ray."
Do we really want them behind us?
"The rest will take care of itself."
OW! OW! OW!
The idea that whoever porn backs will win the format war is sort of a self-fufilling prophecy isn't it. Everyone will just follow the porn industry even if the resultant technology is not superior.
Blu-Ray is going into American homes anyway, because it's part of the PS3 and it's probably too late for Sony to back out of that now even if they want to. Even if retailers don't want it, even if Blu-Ray fails miserably as a video format, or even if both HDDVD and Blu-Ray fail miserably as video formats and stores refuse to stock them, there are still going to be the Blu-Ray players and discs out there-- because that's what PS3 games are stored on, and this is going to happen with or without the video features ever being used. And this is going to start early next year, probably long before HDDVD players or discs become available.
Moreover, Blu-Ray isn't going to hurt the PS3-- since if Blu-Ray movies turn out to never happen, then from a consumer perspective all three video game consoles have the exact same video playback features (they all three play DVDs, though the Revolution requires an adapter and the PS3 has the additional optional bluray ability).
So, what effect does the above have?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Thickness of the package should be no greater than that of a standard DVD package and no less than the thickness of a CD jewel case.
You know... I'm perfectly happy with the standard CD jewel. Anything I backup and burn goes in the standard jewel. Come to think about it the things I buy get thrown in a standard jewel as well if not double or quad jewels. If they find they must go with a different than CD package, go super jewel or super long jewel.
The regular long box fits in a drawer almost as badly as VHS tape did... for this reason i'd prefer either thin long box, super jewel long, jewel/super jewel. I would prefer sticking with the same standard as CD since DVD players will play CDs it only makes sense that they all fit on the same style shelf.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
You mean like DVI? The HDMI folks claim backwards compatibility.
Is HDMI backward-compatible with DVI (Digital Visual Interface)?
Yes, HDMI is fully backward-compatible with DVI using the CEA-861 profile for DTVs. HDMI DTVs will display video received from existing DVI-equipped products, and DVI-equipped TVs will display video from HDMI sources.
Are there HDTVs with analog-only inputs? What's the point? Sounds like you would be screwed already. Those with DVI ports should be okay unless everyone is fibbing.
The industry's crusade to curb piracy is understandable and expected, but a statement that blatently urges designers and manufacturers to "undermine efforts" of completely legal consumer copying for backup purposes is extremely disturbing.
I realize I shouldn't be surprised, but it hurts nonetheless.
The end result is that HDMI is a preferable solution going forward. Most likely it is going to win out; we're just going to have to accept the associated DRM.
My understanding is that HDCP (the "associated DRM" in HDMI) is not part of HDMI, but rather a separate layer which may be placed on top of either HDMI or DVI.
Am I wrong?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
The PS3 will supposedly ship with blue ray. End of format war.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Oh, brother, I can barely catch my breath. Have you ever wandered through a Best Buy or Circuit City?
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
So if I wanted to play these HD-DVDs, I'd probably have to buy a VGA->componenet adapter that costs more than half as much as my TV. A lot of people are probably going to eventually get stuck with HDMI-only cable boxes, and they won't even have that option.
All of this work and expense being foisted on consumers is solely for the convenience of the movie studios. It's nothing but bullshit.
Stop offering two different desktops.
Isn't HD-DVD's one big touted advantage supposed to be, and correct me if I'm recalling wrong here, easy backwards compatability?
As far as I'm aware, the advantage is and always has been easy backward compatibility for the content industries. From the consumer perspective, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be equally backward compatible with DVD, and both will achieve this backward compatibility in the same way-- by adding a third laser to the two which DVD drives already possess (one laser for CD frequencies, one laser for DVD frequencies, one laser for the "blue" HD disc frequencies).
In fact from the consumer perspective if anything Blu-Ray is more backward compatible than HD-DVD-- because it is possible to manufacture Blu-Ray discs which can be placed in a standard DVD or CD player, and which appear as DVDs to a DVD player and Blu-Rays to a Blu-Ray player. (However, it is unclear if any such Blu-Ray discs will ever be manufactured, and anyway it may not be too late for HD-DVD to adopt this same feature.)
The tauted "backward compatibility" of HD-DVD is, as noted above, from the perspective of a content producer. That is to say, you can manufacture HD-DVDs in the same machines you manufacture DVDs in, with some slight upgrades. If you wish to manufacture Blu-Ray discs, you must buy a new machine. Of course, we are told, if it is cheaper to manufacture HD-DVDs than Blu-Ray discs because you don't have to buy new machines, then the discs will be cheaper for the consumer as well. Hooray for trickle-down economics!
And of course from the perspective of a content producer, forcing your cattle, I mean consumers, to buy new "secure" equipment-- as HD-DVD does and Blu-Ray probably will-- is a big plus.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
These are the retailers. Even more than the studios, they care very much that people actually buy movies rather than getting illegal copies.
If you want an end to copy protection, you're not going to have the retailers on your side unless you give them a really good reason. Tell them you'll boycott, perhaps, or show them some research showing that movie downloaders buy more movies. (Send it to me, too, while you're at it.)
But don't expect them to call for what they perceive as slitting their own throats.
Is the entertainment industry doomed because everyone is accepting a loss of visual quality to download films for free, or is the industry saved because everyone is desperate to pay more for higher definition content?
Just what the heck is going on?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
HDTV? DVI? HDMI connections? I worry about none of these things, and frankly I can't see myself caring anytime in the near future at least as far as home entertainment goes. (I wouldn't mind some Blu-ray drives at work though)
Let them bicker and fight. I'll upgrade sometime in 2015 after the loser is dead and buried and when I can get a QXUABCDEFSVGA resolution screen for $50.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
What's annoying about this isn't that my 2 year old $2800 HD TV isn't compatible with high definition signalling, it's not compatible with a specific and relatively new standard oriented towards copyright control.
As long as the running battle continues on securing DRM, nothing you buy will be safe from flexible standards; each standard will go through a phase of being new, then being cracked, then being replaced with something else which renders previous versions obsolete and "non-standard".
I'm not really pissed because I'm not interested in buying into HD DVD unless it's Blu-Ray, usable on my PC, and as usable for home recording as my current Panny E80 HD recorder is.
Here's what strikes me in this whole fiasco: TVs generally last a long long time. I realize nowadays we have become accustomed to "throwaway electronics" such as DVD players, VCRs, cellphones, etc. But TVs are generally not considered such. Hell, the 19 inch set in my bedroom was bought by my parents on the day I was born now more than 23 years ago, and it still works great with my now 18 year old Nintendo system. A good TV set can outlast a new car, and therefore many many people (myself included) aren't keen on jumping all over a new standard that requires us to invest in yet another new TV only a few short years later. The only way I'm going to upgrade to another new HDTV standard so shortly after the current one is if a standard becomes established and popular, and the equipment comes down to a friendly consumer price point. My estimate: 5 years. I mean I just bought my HDTV in March and I'm not planning on another new TV purchase anytime soon. New standards be damned, I won't help line the pockets of movie studios that seek to undermine my rights as a consumer by buying a new TV, a new player, and all my favorite movies all over again that I have spent 5 years working on buying on the current DVD standard. It took me long enough to ditch VHS for good, and a great many people still have not. The industry needs to slow down before they realize that they have left more consumers behind than they can afford to.
Sure. And at the rate that television prices are falling, in a couple years you could buy a new TV for the same price as a 349 "converter" box.
Consider, too, that the new HDDVD specs allow for the **removal** of authentication keys from the pool of permissable keys if they have compromised. I'm betting it won't be long before Hollywierd disables the keys this device uses.
Last year I bought a Panasonic 42PHD6 series HD plasma.
As you can see from the linked article, the biggest draw to this unit is the expansion slots -- plus it has damn nice resolution and very rich and dark blacks.
It came pre-equiped with VGA and Component Inputs occupying the 2nd and 3rd slots, but slot 1 is wide open. And since Panasonic already puts out an HDMI inerface board I should have no worries about future compatability .
I recommend all HDTV buyers look into commercial grade and not consumer grade HD-Display Units since typically only commercial units offer expansion slots.
guess I can move on, nothing to see there.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
So you spent thousands of dollars on a HD TV before it was clear if it was going to play HD DVD's?
yikes
Here is a nice article (six sections) with an independent comparison of the two formats.
A nice detail - the codecs supported on both discs are exactly the same...
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Interesting stuff, but everybody seems to be ignoring the 800 pound gorilla. Microsoft has been quietly distributing WMV-HD format product through Artisan for about a year and a half. If you have watched Terminator 2 WMV-HD on a 120-inch high definition projector, then you will have some idea what I am talking about.
Last year, the Taiwanese DVD player manufacturers paid about $1,500,000,000 in royalties to the organization which licences DVD formats, and they are getting out from under with FVD, a high definition format based around WMV-HD. The first players are going on sale priced at $171 and the price includes 10, yes, count 'em 10, HD movie titles. This product is going to be sold throughout China and Taiwan, and I would guess that the studios will be converting their movies to this format pretty quick smart, because the DVD market in China is rife with pirating.
Meanwhile, anybody with a fast PC can play WMV-HD, and Hollywood is not going to ignore the massive number of PC's running Windows Media Player. So I think Microsoft is just standing in the wings, watching Toshiba and Sony slug it out, and if Microsoft want this market, they have the money and the product to take it when the time is right.
Device keys and media keys are still there, with a major change, in the first steps of content decryption, a player has to find its specific key in a big ternary tree of keys, where each leaf corresponds to the key of a given device (brand and model). By denying a drive to find its key in the tree, Blu-ray and HD-DVD can easily revoke a single given device. If for instance a given player is cracked and its keys are published, the licensing authority will send new keys and navigation information to disc manufacturers. As a result, all discs pressed after the player has been cracked will refuse to play on this specific drive, but will play perfectly on all other (including older) devices.
:(
This blacklisting of a single player model is quite powerful and can slow down mass piracy, but on the other hand it can also have some significant drawbacks for legitimate consumers. For instance, you could one day suddenly be unable to watch new movies on your player because it has been revoked after someone has successfully compromised this model. Practical use (as well as explanations to future customers) of this new revocation system will be very interesting to watch.
That absolutely sucks, and I had never heard about it...
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Why don't they just have a slashdot poll and get it over with already ... jeez. Go BlueRay!
The only reason HD-DVD is a competitive is because it's got the better name. Sure it'll cost lest to manufacture and be...*cough*... more compatable, Blue-Ray offers so much more, it only has a crappy name. Maybe this group can think of a better name. Any ideas? HDVD? DVD-Ultra? Super-DVD?
Is it just me, or shouldn't we just be able to live with DVDs? They look bloody fine to me - even when I've watched them on my friends home projector. I don't understand why everyone is in such a rush to get this stuff. Lets let the DVD format run a good 30 years before we try to replace it. Shesh!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Guys...
All of this talk about HD-DVD players also being able to play DVDs... is this really a significant feature? You've already got a DVD player today. You can pick them up at Wal-Mart for $35. Even if neither one of these formats could play regular DVDs, you could still have your HDTV hooked up to a regular DVD player and one of these next generation jobs.
I find any argument along the lines of, "Blu-Ray doesn't do DVDs? I'm going for HD-DVD!!" to be academic at best.
Hmm. They definitely don't seem to be more durable: a couple of scratches or fingerprints and they start becoming unreadable. In my experience, videotapes seem to be much better able to withstand a few weeks in the hands of little ones.
And to balance "no rewinding" there's "no seeking allowed, depending on the publisher's whim".
Personally I buy/rent *way* fewer DVDs than video tapes because of these problems. I kind of happy that industry stupidity has helped me to kick my habit.
Mike
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
They are asking the wrong people for a standard. They need ask to ask the porn industry which standard to pick. Once the porn industries start belting out 800+ movies per month watch them units jump off the shelves and hit your open mouth!
sri
HD-DVD really should have stuck with that deal they were working on with Sony. They really screwed themselves by pulling out. HD-DVD will get an early lead, but the DAY the PS3 comes out there will immediately be more BLU-Ray players in the market than HD-DVD and it's all down hill for them from there. Their stubborness will the their epitaph.
The only format in which you can buy prerecorded movies in 1080i and Dolby Digital 5.1 right now is - and I am not making this up - VHS. It ain't cheap, but it is available.
http://www.dvhsmovie.com/
Ok, so what I don't get is why are they fighting so much about it? The medium isn't all that different... It's just a 5" diameter circular piece of plastic with a precisely modified reflecting surface, right?
Now I may be totally off, but afaik Hi Density DVD is only a new compression standard, not really a new hardware medium... Blu-Ray on the other hand is only a hardware modification allowing more data to be crammed onto one disk.
Now assuming I assessed properly, what's to prevent the two technologies from complementing each other?
I mean, seriously, take Blu-Ray hardware and stick HD-DVD formatted data on it, then you've got everyone happy, because Blu-Ray readers should still be able to read old-school DVDs, allowing the HD-DVD to exist as it is, while allowing those who need huge data storage to use Blu-Ray disks.
Anyone unhappy still?
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
So to watch this new format I need :-
:-
1) A new TV @ £1500 Sterling.
2) A new HD-DVD/blueray player @ £?
3) Copies of Films I possibly already have to play on it @ £?
4) An upgrade to my satalite equipment to receive HD content (2 channels atm?) @ £?
5) An upgraded sat subscripition. @ £?
You know...to me (IMO) the above does NOT lead to
6) Profit!!
Why? Because in 5 years time, when all this stuff is priced at a more reasonable level and the quality/quanity of content could justify upgrading...there WILL be a new/better/cheaper format on the horizon (and VERY close to the horizon as well given this tech were talking about now is nearly 2 (lab) years old).
Even worse is MANY consumers (well those of us with better than NTSC) WONT be able to see the real benefits to the upgrade and are NOT going to be replacing that DVD collection; uptake in the mass market is likely to be quite slow.
This is quite probably going to lead to this generation of "technology" being largely shuned in the market place or only occupying a niche in the "videophiles" high end market and eventually going the way of laserdisc!!
So let the release both formats!! It will only quicken the demise for both and HOPEFULLY somewhere in the implosion the draconion copy protection measures will take some of the flak!
the HD-DVD folks just don't know it yet.
In the same 18 month period that the most optomistic forcasts have 500,000 HD-DVD players sold Sony is projected to sell 15-20 million PS3's - which will include a BD player. Given the forecast price of the PS3 you can bet a large percentage of families are not going to be willing to buy that and a seperate hd-disk player when they get both in the Sony package.
Given that the studios are complete whores and given the substantial decline in DVD sales, they are going to sell BDs for the PS3 no matter how much they prefer HD-DVD - they won't have a choice if they want to keep their phony-baloney jobs.
After two years - an installed base of 20M+ vs. an installed base of 2M+.... It won't even be a contest, and there are no viable theories that contest these well hashed over market projections (with the possible exception of the PS3 never being released.) Even if the X-box takes 50% of the market (Microsofts finest dream, not considered likely) that's still 15M PS3s in the first 18 months.
Oh, and for all the HD-DVD partisans who try to say that Sony will drop BD from the PS3 (other the n the complete absurdity of that contention) Just keep in mind that Sony can count the royalties it gets from every BD sold (and into the future) to subsidize the market price of the PS3 from day one due to the lock it will give it on the next generation format.
THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal...
Althought floppy discs suck (speed, capacity), they are way ahead of cd-roms/dvd-roms.
We shouldn't be able to 'touch' the media! How's that for a suggestion?
The XBOX 360 uses HD-DVD and supports 1080i from component.
- Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/
http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360
// The fastest Alt-Tab in the West
Yeah, it comes weeks after that little tidbit rumour. So what? I am going to go
for a -1 or more and accuse the poster of being a flamer wanting a big copy
protection discussion, where none is warranted or even alluded to in the document
linked from the news post.
If you read the document they advocate the copy protection in not so many words,
and they would; it's in their best interests. If you have a TV capable of playing
digital high-definition content there is a HIGH certainty that it supports HDCP.
If it does not and you are really that concerned about it, you are going to be
geeky or tech-freak enough to buy a TV that can anyway. The average consumer; who
currently sees no reason to upgrade from standard definition television sets
other than to watch HBO and the Discovery Channel, will be adequately and happily
encouraged to buy new TVs anyway.
What is this big "OH NOES!!" thing about buying a new TV. Did that many people
really buy an HD TV that didn't have HDCP? I mean you would have to have a 3
or 4 year old set of reasonably poor quality to have that kind of tech in your
house, and been an incredibly early adopter. Are you the mass market consumer whore
the document is asking the industry to cater for?
Nope. So quit whining and baiting
"HD-DVD will only allow playback of full 1080 resolution video signals through HDMI connectors, leaving consumers with older HDTVs (pre-HDMI) out of luck."
We're not farm animals. You can't milk us with your "HD" (LD) standardised formats any more.
Hell my monitor would play any video up to 1920 x 1440 and look glorious and it's only a cheap monitor (far cheaper than any "HD TV" capable of playing what computer monitors were displaying 10 years ago.)
Whatever format and whatever resolution a producer wants to release their film at, I know I can play without any trouble, *unless* they lock the format down into some "standard" (in which case I have to go to the hassle of decrypting and re-encoding... it's such a nuisance)
Give it to me as straight data on a HD-DVD or BluRay, or via the net. If you can't handle that then don't produce movies (or music). It won't stop movies or music being made, I'll guarantee you that.
The corporations have no influence in the standards or distrubution sector any more. The only remaining power they have is that of advertising budget, and the infinite gullability of the masses.
Open.
Rich Gentlemen Hide - The Existential Comic
The winner should be whichever one abandons these naked shiny discs in silly cumbersome cases and replaces them with 3.5" floppy disc style cases to protect them from being destroyed within *a day* of having them left lying around or in ones bag or at the mercy of whatever ink is used to print on them.
Will we see this? or is a CD's redundancy a 'feature'?
Rich Gentlemen Hide - The Existential Comic
Besides, who really wants to see a porn-star's body in high definition? What if they have freckles or crabs or something?
Digital noise reduction will take care of the freckles. As for crabs, just send Solid Snake to battle them. (No wait, don't.)
those that have DVI (without HDCP support) will have to A: live with a standard definition signal
SDTV (standard def) is 480i composite or S-video. EDTV (enhanced def) is 480p component. (Substitute 576 in 50 Hz territories.) I've read strong speculation about the "resolution constriction" of Broadcast Flag/MSDRM/HDCP content that analog video will be downsampled to EDTV rather than SDTV.
Although technology changes at a fair pace, popular embracing of that technology usually takes a lot longer. Looking at DVD, it's really only started to become a popular format in the last 2-3 years and it still hasn't completely supplanted VHS. Look at the resistance to widescreen formatting versus pan and scan! Many publishers still have to release dual format versions of films because there's a significant market out there who either don't understand widescreen, or don't have a widescreen TV. I would be shocked if either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD doesn't take at least 5 years to establish itself in the marketplace, if either format can sustain itself for that long. For most people DVD was such a dramatic increase in quality that I doubt they'll see the advantage of upgrading their collection yet again because the industry tells them there's a new format they should be using. I know I won't. For those of us on a budget, format wars will need to run their course before we even consider upgrading. I can't afford a 1080i TV or a projector, and my standard widescreen TV still has a lot of life left in it. Those are my priorities, and I'm more of a geek than most people I know.
"Oh, brother, I can barely catch my breath. Have you ever wandered through a Best Buy or Circuit City?"
Obviously you did, consumer.
We don't need your corporate DRM BULLSHIT.
We make our own formats without you.
We make our own content without you.
What you give us wrapped in plastic wrap,
we will take, and not give you a cent.
Give us what we want or we will take it.
This is the open media revolution. You've already seen the beginning of it with podcasting and vblogging.
Why should we sit through a half hour show to watch a half hour of commercials?
Why do we need to worry when your half hour show comes on?
We don't. We will augment your content to remove the forced time constraints (Both commercials and show times).
We will augment your music that is confined in a disc to be free, open, and manipulable, whether you like it or not.
No matter what you do, we will get what we want.
Stop us with more drm. Sure. That's not the solution, we will completely bypass you with Open Media.
FUCK YOU MPAA, RIAA, CORPORATE MEDIA.
Yeah, but I'm one of the guys who helps the salespeople out with answers to questions they don't know. That's because unlike the ignorant consumers I was talking about, I actually do research before I give someone my hard-earned cash.
I didn't buy into laserdiscs when they came out, waiting instead for the technology to mature a bit. Then laserdisc was superceded by DVD, so again I waited. Now, years later, I am shopping around for a DVD player when I see this article on /., and again have to put my technological aspirations on hold until the technology stabilizes.
They can pry my VCR from my cold, dead hands.
Yay! Let's hear is for monopolies, and lockin.
The real reason retailers don't want both formats going to market is...
1) People will complain about not being able to buy movies in one format or the other if the studio doesn't support that format, and the people they will complain to are the store personnel/management. This is because: a) these people are available to complain to, studio execs are not, much like people complain to the cable company about the violence on TV, and b) they actually believe the store is simply not carrying the movie in the format they want, the idea of formats being used in a marketting war between studios is beyond their comprehension.
2) Retailers don't want their shelf space of movies to double because they now have to carry both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD versions of films. Shelf space is expensive. This is also why they want packaging to be standardized (and probably exactly the same as current DVD packaging) None of them want to buy new shelving units, spend payroll money assembling and reorganizing their displays for the new shelving units, ect.
Slightly offtopic:
Notice a DVD disc is the same size as an Audio CD? Is there any reason why they couldn't use CD jewelcases for DVD sales? No, but by using a differnt size box they get something that a) Movie posters will scale down to better to become DVD covers and b) People have to spend more money to get home entertainment furniture that fits DVD boxes verses keeping what they have that fits only CD's now.
My understanding is that the current DVD spec (or really the patent holders) require any DVD player that puts out a signal that is better than 480p use HDCP copy protection on that signal (either DVI-HDCP or HDMI). That is why all the "up-convert" DVD players available only put out the 720p or 1080i signal on a DVD-HDCP or HDMI port; the component video port only gets 480p.
So if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD supports "old-style" DVDs and has 720p or 1080i outputs, they will have to have copy protection on them already. I don't expect to ever see a Blu-Ray player that doesn't have HDCP on the high-def outputs, even if they did drop the requirement.
I already have the equipment, and many others already do too.
I stopped buying movies on DVD and started watching them on HBO because DVD looks like crap next to the signal I get from satellite, cable or even with the antenna I stick up in the air. Why would I buy a movie today when I know I'll want to rebuy it soon when it is finally available in good quality?
The lack of on-demand viewing of HD movies (i.e. DVDs) is hurting HD adoption significantly. And in the case of some people (like myself) it is hurting DVD sales.
Videodisc lasted 10 years. It was well accepted amongst those who cared about video or audio quality. I have no idea why people use it as an example of a failure.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Fukk them left and right. They want to make me suck it down?
They can suck it down. I'll give them both nuts. They can can die, just like ATRAC and BETA.
1. Wait till 100 million devices have been sold. 2. Crack it and publish the codes. 3. Watch the industry go broke trying to do warranty repairs on 100 million devices. 4. Go back to reading Sloshdat, while waiting for the next hair-brained scheme to come along.
Oh well, what the hell...
But even before I did, with my 36" TV (4:3, not 16:9), there was no comparison between DVD (720x480) and HDTV (1280x720 or 1920x1080).
No, I'm not saying everyone needs HDTV, heck, some people's eyes are in pretty bad shape, and might not even notice the difference on a huge TV. But for most people, and more importantly, the majority of people who make up the active buying population for TVs, there is a noticeable difference, at any reasonable size.
I'll be interested to see how HDTV adoption goes. I know I wouldn't like to go back. But I think that having more sources available (HDDVD, more channels and video game consoles) will drive adoption levels up many times, perhaps to as high as 20% of the marketplace in two years.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157317&cid=131 90581
No, you didn't fail. You got FP. Congrats. :-/
Sony should go for FP with Blueray. They've had the players ready for about three years now, but still no concrete specification (correct me if I'm wrong).
Sony have the content, so they should get their arses in gear and get some discs out the door.
wheee!
If it weren't for the rocks in its bed, the stream would have no songs.
Another reason the DVD case has its present size is so that it can occupy the retail shelving which previously held VHS tapes without the shelves looking bare...
I think you missed those Pound signs in his post. What you say may be true for the US market, but is the US market big enough to make HD a global success?
This is actually important: without a higher resolution television set, the advantage of HD discs is moot. And as digital signals in Europe are generally standard definition, even new digital sets generally won't be HD.
You haven't seen Sky's broadcasts, obviously. Given how much they compress signals already in order to get the maximum number of channels onto the stream, I find it unlikely that they will move many to HD. It's likely to be only the premium channels: movies and sport.
Regarding the equipment, eventually, HD receivers will be given away free in packets of cereal as they are now. Initially, however, they are going to be expensive, premium devices.
I've lived in countries using PAL and NTSC, and I think you're wrong. Even though the proportional difference is small, it's just enough that, whilst NTSC looks like crap, PAL actually looks pretty good, especially from a normal viewing distance. The colour fidelity of PAL is also much better than that of NTSC (no red bleed for example), so for European consumers, there's much less of an incentive to upgrade.
I think you're wrong on the 20% higher refresh rate, too - The European HDTV standard seems to be 50Hz refresh. But it's not a massive problem in any case - better modern standard-definition PAL TVs store and duplicate each half-frame so that the screen is refreshed at 100Hz, and there's no discernible flicker. The other advantage of PAL's refresh rate is that there are no pull-down artefacts when watching film-sourced material - on the other hand, we get everything speeded up by 4%, but that's less noticeable.
I'm sure that your characterisation is accurate for the US market, but over this side of the Atlantic, it's less of a sure thing.
If your comment title says 'Re: Foo', I'm not likely to read it.
Oh boy, Panasonic displays are worse than other HD-displays, because their expansion slots suggest they are future proof.
The TY-FB7HM is not compatible with the one year old displays of the 6er series, it can only be used with the new series 7 displays, like the TH-PHD7UY. There is no HDMI terminal board available for the one year old 6er series!
So it seems, just one year later, you have to buy a new display. May I suggest an expandable Panasonic...
the cost of lost data due to scratched discs far outweights any "prohibitive manufacture expense"
not to mention speeding up the "where did I put the case for this" and open close case productivity bottlenecks... (this would add up to days over a year or $billions if they studied the worlds "case handling")
Rich Gentlemen Hide - The Existential Comic