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Video Game Industry to Sue Michigan's Governor
hapwned writes "A news release at Warcry writes that the ESA (Entertainment Software Association) plans on filing suit in Michigan to overturn the recent Violent Games Act. From the article: 'The ESA argues that this bill is an effort to substitute the government's judgment for parental supervision and turn retailers into surrogate parents. Lowenstein said that the industry's products were being unreasonably and unfairly singled out. He contends that while there is no question that a few games have content that some audiences will find offensive, the same can be said for some content in TV, films, music, and books. Since the government does not regulate the sales of those entertainment industries, it should follow suit for the sale of video games. Ultimately, he concluded, parents, not government or industry, must be the gatekeepers of what comes in the home.'"
It's not the Government's place to tell it's population what they can, and can't play.
Really, it's gone way the fuck too far.
~The TwoTailedFox posts again....
Its like some of those 'soviet russia' jokes are coming to life.
"In soviet russia, games sue you!"
were doomed!
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.
Ha! Damn politicians thought they could just roll over the games industry eh? To be honest, I didn't think that the entertainment companies had it in them to challenge the government. Good for them!
thats right game companies, fight back! finally!
anybody got fined 12,000 dollars for renting or selling a "violent" movie to a youngster?
or better yet, a cartoon.
or an orson scott card novel.
Doug Lowenstein.
Come on guys, you know that name.
The IDSA. The same guys that were tearing down emulation sites by the dozens between 1998 and 2000. I still have some screwed up pictures of the guy someplace on my hard drive from back in the days of utter hatemail over the issue.
So I'm torn to even begin to support anything the guy or the new name of the computer entertainment mafia. But they are right.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
But why does this have to turn into yet another round of Sue Somebody(TM), much less the governor? Even if I were to sue somebody, I'd sue the state legislature first, or better yet, the special interest groups that started the bill in the first place.
Skype is too convoluted... Now I'm reverse-engineering the Kyoto Protocol.
About time us Michiganders got some exposure to the press! :P
But industry shouldn't have a role? That's crazy talk. Parents ought to keep a close eye on the things their kids do, but it is also the community's responsibility to raise kids rightly. If a kid is running around Wal-mart yelling and screaming, most of the time people just look the other way and mutter under their breath. But that is doing a huge disservice to the child who will not learn proper behavior.
So too is it important that industries concentrate on producing high-quality, wholesome products. Whether this be something as nutritious as breakfast cereal or as empty as your typical R-rated movie, it is important that the community standards to which a majority of a community profess are supported by the corporation's product.
It is good business to provide people with things they need. But there is also a lot of money involved in selling people their vices. We do not accept people who wish to sell drugs to minors, nor do we absolve of guilt those who would ply them with alcohol.
It is not always 100% the job of the parent. The community must be held responsible to the extent that they have offered moral corruption from beyond the purview of the child's parents.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
I don't see why this compromise can't be reached. At that point we will be conducting due diligence, and can reach that wonderful state of plausible deniability.
No, I did not RTFA.
I think they should just do a Counterstrike tourney to settle this lawsuit.
what will happen is that tv, books, and films will be censored and subdued because video game developers are crybabies and can't do anything creative unless it's got gallons of blood and tits flashing everywhere.
Who cares, this all comes way too late to save the Lemmings.
&sniff;
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
Ultimately, he concluded, parents, not government or industry, must be the gatekeepers of what comes in the home.
Why should parents raise their kids when the government is happy to do it?
Why is it that in America we allow such things to happen? What happened to parents taking responsibility for their children? As a child I remembered hearing my parents telling me "No". And if I continued bothering them the spanking would commence. These days parents are afraid to be parents because of how government regulates children. If a parent disciplines their kids by spanking, it's bad. But if this is not done, than they will grow up and be miscreants. As a conservative right-winged nut, I refuse to blame the game industry. It is the parent's responsibility to take handle of the situation. If you are reading this and want to understand what happens to a generation of children who never got spanked, by all means read Starship Troopers by Heinlein. Parents take back your children or else the state will impose its foot into your house.
"C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung"
People keep trying to childproof the world so that they can abandon their kids and expect everything to be ok. Let's get a little responsability going here. Nobody should be complaining about the 'hot coffee' mod because no parent should give that game to their child in the first place! Anything else just doesn't make sense.
:(
:)
You can't plunk a kid down in front of a TV all day so you can get a job, sex, etc and expect them to be properly raised and only exposed to material on the TV that perfectly fits your personal politial ideals, religion, philosophy, etc. Videogames are no different.
The regulation they are contesting is just another 'reform' that should not exist or have a totally different structure than what they are trying to pass as law.
I am glad that there are people who are trying to fight it.
12. When you cut and paste your troll from an email use Preview to make sure it's formated correctly.
KFG
A bit self serving (ie: it's hurting our sales... urrr... children!)... but still, a good sentiment.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Um, the V-Chip, Janet Jackson's nipple...
films,
It seems to me that the movie industry, haveing been made an offer it couldn't refuse (from the US gov't back in the '20s) set up self regulation: Films get rated, distributors won't screen X, unrated or (often) NC-17 films.
music,
Content labels, and the world's largest retailer won't carry potty-mouth stuff.
and books.
Well, they've certainly been banned in the US before. Ulysses, Lolita....
Since the government does not regulate the sales of those entertainment industries...
Bzzzzzt.
Everybody's a libertarian 'till their neighbour's becomes a crack house.
I disagree. With TV, Movies, etc. you are watching or listening to the content. With games you are actually interacting with the content and in effect doing the action in the mind of the person. I can see how this could lead to issues in the future.
Don't flame me for this opinion. I've been on the side of the video game companies for quite some time, but the content of many if getting way out of hand. And yes I think the same goes for TV and movies. There really should be more regulation and restrictions on who is allowed to purchase/play them.
"A news release writes that the PEA (Pornography Entertainment Association) plans on filing a suit to overturn the U.S. government's ban on the sale of pornography to minors. The PEA argues that this law is an effort to substitute the government's judgment for parental supervision and turn retailers into surrogate parents. A spokesman said that the industry's products were being unreasonably and unfairly singled out. He contends that while there is no question that a few products have content that some audiences will find offensive, the same can be said for some content in TV, films, music, and books. Since the government does not regulate the sales of those entertainment industries, it should follow suit for the pornography entertainment industry. Ultimately, he concluded, parents, not government or industry, must be the gatekeepers of what comes in the home.'"
The AEA (Alcohol Entertainment Association) and Tobacco Institute are considering filing similar lawsuits to overturn the ban on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to minors.
you know what ethics, and all that crap aside, and yes I said crap. In todays capitalist society the gaming industry needs to pony up and lobby the hell out of this. Thats the real driving force behind law making in this country isn't it. I'm tired of people pretending that this is a moral issue. All it is about is about Hillery Clinton preping her self for the 07 presidential race, and paying off enough senators to make this go away.
She had this comming. She wanted this anti violent game campaign much like Hilary is chasing GTA to further herself.
Granholm is on thin ice in this state... and signing the violent games bill, i assume, makes her feel she may win some votes with the conservative/christian/majority of the west side of the state.
The trademarks relating to the video game are: Doom, Doom 2, and Doom 3. Not just the word doom. Though I did manage to find a description of a biological product for a doom trademark.:(
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
...but not necessarily one any more or less than any other companies. Certainly the arguement about movies and music being less pressed-upon is quite valid...
There's a big difference between this and selling drugs or booze to minors. First of all, street drugs are illegal to all... and both are something that despite any mental maturity, young people initially have little physical resiliance to.
Give them ratings, enforce, and inform... but don't hold the game companies accountable when parents buy their kids SlaughterGoreBloodbath 4.0
...that they didn't get a bigger cameo in Grand Theft Auto: Detroit?
"Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
"while there is no question that a few games have content that some audiences will find offensive, the same can be said for some content in TV, films, music, and books"
Why'd you have to bring other media into it?! Now we'll all have to show ID at the Barnes & Noble checkout!
with an Entertainment Industry suit.
Wow thats weird.
And if they do win, I hope that they force the governor to pay in quarters.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Why would the people who are in charge of taking care of thier children be resposibile for not doing their job? It's NEVER their fault. :)
[ brakken ]
I have a theory I'm testing out, could you help me by answering one simple question?
Have you successfully raised two or more children?
My theory is that people who have don't dispense parenting advice in glib little phrases and hold forth that parenting is simple.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
The new law, SB 416, would restrict the dissemination of video games containing certain violent content.
What exactly are the restrictions? Does it mean that, under the new law, video game stores cannot sell violent video games to kids, or that video game stores cannot sell violent games to anyone? And does it cover internet sales as well? Is it illegal for an eBay seller in North Dakota to sell a violent video game to an eBay buyer in Michigan? Has anyone actually read the bill?
... This seems to be the biggest problem with this whole issue. It is a game, not real and just a few minors, (Yes, I'm a minor as well,) end up having a nice little rock for politicians to grab onto in that giant Climbing-Wall-O-Politics. This is not a problem, this is not an epidemic.
As for the argument that it partly is the community's responsiblity to teach a child what is right and wrong, I agree to an extent. If I were to see a child running around screaming his/her head off and approach that child, the mother or (worse yet) the father might respond in a negative fasion. A question with this responsibility is, 'Should I get involved when I could just as easily be pointed out as the bad guy.' There are those parents out there that just don't want to be told how to run thier lives, (much like a minor), and abhore the thought of someone telling them how to raise thier child.
Another issue here is the fact that a lot of people claim 'Ignorance'. Ignorance does not work here. How many years has the ESRB been in effect, working for the education for the parents?
Over TEN years. This is no longer ignorance, this is 'Stupidity'. We can no longer claim ignorance as an attack on the Gaming Industry as there has been more than enough warnings, and attempts at teaching adults how to choose a game that is right for thier children.
According to Princeton University's Dictionary stupidity is as follows: Noun
* S: (n) stupidity (a poor ability to understand or to profit from experience)
This seems like a poor ability to understand to me.
Empathetic-- 94% You tend to walk in someone else's shoes a hundred miles before pointing a finger.
And they do, unsuccessfully, all the time. I applaud the efforts of the State of Michigan. They may lose, but if they do, at least it's one more step towards keeping patently objectionable material out of the hands of impressionable youth.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
And you were there, inside of it, crying.
There's a big problem with the games industry (or any media entity) having to police their own product. Instead of ensuring that risky materials are segregated from the fluff, they simply refuse to produce them. If the cost associated with pushing the envelope is too high, risk taking is discouraged.
When the MPAA for movies, the FCC for television or the Comic Book Code really started flexing their power it was always followed by a long period of bland (but unobjectionable) product.
This practice will be particularly pronounced in the games industry, where originality and innovation are already on the decline.
With more and more of the industry falling under larger conglomerates (E.A. anyone) the chances of maverick developers pushing the boundries of this self imposed censorship becomes smaller as well.
VGCats: Coco Beans in Warm Water"
I am scientifically inaccurate.
It's whether or not to protect the sensibilities of children. It's not a book ban, or a movie ban, or even a game ban. It's keeping kids from getting uber violent and very adult-oriented materials.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
12. Substitute the word accept in situations where the word except is correct and vice versa. Include other middle school caliber grammar mistakes, such as misuse of there/their/they're.
And, when all else fails, pick on people's spelling.
ACCEPT != EXCEPT
Dunno. How long has Wal mart been running US foreign policy viz China?
Everybody's a libertarian 'till their neighbour's becomes a crack house.
I am reminded of this old proverb: It takes a village to raise a child. Whoever said that must not have believed a child was fully the parents' responsibility. The law is a regulation on content deemed inappropriate for certain age groups by the ESRB. As was commented before, I don't see why this shouldn't be enforced in the same manner as tobacco/alcohol sales, or in a more applicable sense, movie ticket sales. Honestly, the way kids are and always will be, parents need all the help they can get.
We're talking about the game industry here. Can you honestly see a design team meeting going like this:
"OK, what do we want from our next game, Bob?"
"We want a high quality, wholesome game."
"Right, what else do we want in this game, Joan?"
"Teaches something, like math or proper grammar."
"Excellent point! Yes, Jeff?"
"It should underscore moral values and show the value of good teamwork."
"By golly, Jeff, I knew there was a reason we signed you on! Toni?"
"It will have to feature players defeating computer players, because we wouldn't want to cause any injury to self esteem."
"Toni, I see what you mean. OK, break off into groups and brainstorm, we need to think of a theme for this game, what's in it, what the goals are and so on. Lou!"
"Yes, Pete?"
"You start drawing up the Chapter 11 papers."
It's not really that much of a stretch, look at how the entertainment industry ran away from kid-theme movies before Toy Story, Aladdin and Lion King, now they're right cranking out some decent family pictures (though Disney's seem to be just repackaging the same tired stereotyped characters they've been beating to death for the past 40 years.) Try developing something decent and competitive. It can be done, but the trend is more and more violence because it shows it sells.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Also I think we should ban high school football. God knows how much violence that has caused outside of playing it.
Um... feel free to correct me (and I'm sure everyone will leap at the opportunity), but I thought the whole idea of the bill was to ensure that the parents DO get involved. Ie, a child cant go to the video store and buy a NC-17 game (or whatever the classification system is), but instead has to get their PARENTS to buy the game for them.
Otherwise, the kid could just buy the game and hide it until the parents aren't around.
Yes, this is an inconveinece for the store clerks, that have to vet customers ages, and yes it'll reduce sales because there'll be fewer games being sold. But saying that this bill does NOT support a parent's interjection in a child's activities is just stupid.
In the US you can be a todler and go into a games store and buy something like... Vampire Bloodlines (with plotlines involving snuff films, butchering babies, killing police officers...) or some other pleasant game like GTA SA.
But you can't at age 18 walk into a pub and order a pint of beer...
I don't really understand it, computer games are like videos, just so far worse graphics and more interactive, but I'd imagine soon it'll reach video quality. Which begs the question... isn't letting a minor buy a sex-rape-killathon style video game over the counter the same as letting a minor walk into a dirty sex video shop and buy the equliviant video off the shelf?
Ok, i know this will only come out sounding crazy, but at what point should we say, "I've had it with this government" and begin a revolt? I swear, i've heard so many stupid things happening in the last three months involving skewed laws coming through, or rediculous rulings by the judges, or sheer incompitance in the executive branch. I've freaking had it. someone needs to step up and say, "you are not obeying the will of the people. you are corrupt and unjust. You must be removed at all costs."
I for one am saying that. And once more, regardless of what anyone thinks, i'm actually going to do something about this.
for free wallpapers, visit Sargosis.com
Posts like this just make my head spin...
Parents ought to keep a close eye on the things their kids do, but it is also the community's responsibility to raise kids rightly.
But? But?!? Parents ought to keep a close eye on the things their kids do. PERIOD. There is no 'but.' You're just making excuses for bad parenting, and then blaming it on society. Right. It's everyone ELSE'S fault you're a shitty parent and your kids is going nuts in a public place. That kind of attitude is part of the problem.
So too is it important that industries concentrate on producing high-quality, wholesome products. Whether this be something as nutritious as breakfast cereal or as empty as your typical R-rated movie, it is important that the community standards to which a majority of a community profess are supported by the corporation's product.
It is important for industries to concentrate on goods and services that people want to pay for. Thats it. No, no, stop, really. That is ALL. If it isn't in the industry's interests to produce what you call "wholesome" products, then it has no responsibility to do so. The industry doesn't owe you anything. Why should anyone be able to hold them to their own personal standards of decency through enforced legislation? Thats just crazy. If you don't like what they're selling, don't buy it.
There always seems to be a handful of outspoken activists railing against one thing or another that they consider offensive. There is always talk about common decency, community standards, etc. But you get right down to it, most of the stuff they find offensive (popular Movies, TV shows, GTA) is hugely popular. Many many many times more people are actually buying and enjoying the very things these "defenders of decency" are opposed to. This leads me to ask "Just what mythical puritan community ARE these people representing?" Because when you look at the numbers, THEY are the ones in the minority.
It is good business to provide people with things they need. But there is also a lot of money involved in selling people their vices. We do not accept people who wish to sell drugs to minors, nor do we absolve of guilt those who would ply them with alcohol.
You're comparing video games drugs and alcohol? You've got to be kidding me....
It is not always 100% the job of the parent.
Um, yes. Yes it is.
The community must be held responsible to the extent that they have offered moral corruption from beyond the purview of the child's parents.
As I said before, the community is not responsible for your child. You are.
But say you're right. What if this mythical magical "community" is responsible? What are you going to do about it? Who are you going to punish? All community is, is a group of individuals. Are you going to just start selecting subsets of individuals and punishing them for their 'irresponsibility'? In the case of GTA, who do you pick? Do you punish the head of Rockstar games? The development team? The marketing guy? Suddenly one of these people is responsible for your kid? Or what? It just doesn't make any sense. These people don't even know you, or you them. There is no way they can be blamed for your poorly raised child.
Your kid, Your problem
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
Not only do you allow your retarded child free reign to be a menace in a public place, you also teach them that psychotic behavior is a valid means of social interaction.
No wonder your kid doesn't behave right. You aren't teaching him/her a damn thing.
Here's how you can help. Don't take your kid to some place you can't control him. If you do, make sure your kid is with you at all times and not running around the store screaming. And finally, realize that it is you and your child, two individuals, who are being a problem to everyone else in the store.
This is your problem, but when you bring your problems to the public, it becomes everyone's problem. It is you who is abusing your child by allowing him to run around. Please understand that. You are abusing your child when you don't teach them how they are expected to behave in public.
How thoughtful of the game industry to support the individual's right to raise their own children. Except that it is blatantly obvious that their only reason for doing this is so that they can take advantage of people who don't take an interest in what their kids are doing. The fact that the game industry is against it is fairly strong evidence that the problem exists to be taken advantage of. I'm as against this kind of government regulation as the next guy, but that doesn't make the game industry in any way right.
So are you saying there is no correlation between parenting experience and parenting skill?
Because I would think that a person with more parenting experience than myself is more likely than not going to know more about it and have a more valuable opinion. I think your reply that x+y
I think the notion that we were all kids once so we all equally knowledgeable about parenting is not logical.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
I really can't believe the moderators today. -2 Troll for something that was clearly an attempt at being humorous.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Here's the Bill's webpage and the final version signed by Governor Granholm at 11:58am EDT today.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
Uhm, cigarettes aren't sold to minors. Minors aren't allowed in certain places... like where they sell alcohol and have naked women dancing. They can't buy alcohol. The dirty magazines, which they can't buy, are also blocked from view at stores that sell them and where minors are potentially present.
I don't see this as a huge deviation. I see this as recognition that games are a form of media entertainment. What's more, is that it tends to be quite involving and draws the player into that reality making it, is some ways, potentially more problematic to the formation of young minds.
That said, I'd probably let my boys play just about any game, and I'm not against them looking at porn either. Then again, I'm generally in touch with what they do, what they say and who they associate with and I'm comfortable that their personalities aren't particularly warped. I get the feeling, however that many parents aren't particularly close to their children... that's a shame and undeniably the root of the problem.
That said, we can't legislate good parenting... only parenting that "isn't harmful." And we have a society of children growing up with antisocial problems as a result of their detachment from parental care. So the BEST we can hope for is that the community find a LEGAL way to raise the kids.
Kids are not property, they are little people. And when they grow up, they are either society's problem, or society's benefit. If we can't get parents to take responsibility, who should?
So many people are saying "this is just like movie ratings, so what's the big deal?", which is total garbage.
Plain and simple: It is not ILLEGAL to let a kid into an R-rated movie. You will not be fined. Yet these laws make that occur for video games. That is the big difference.
Until Sony/Lowes can get fined for letting kids into R-rated movies, these laws are just blatantly unfair, and deserve to be overturned.
It's your ignorant self that shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of humanity. It's obvious that you have no concept of the problems associated with Autism or Mental Retardation.
We should just lock them up in cages. Out of site out of mind, huh?http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9326511/
Let's get them out of those filthy, squalid, snake pits and into the cages of our homes.
Basically, you don't give a damned as long as you don't ever have to see it.
so i was playing the only fps game on consoles, goldeneye, on my xbox. i had thought of waiting for the pc version to come out since bill gates claimed he would make it much better than the xbox version but my now handless girlfriend (we'll get to that in a second) wanted goldeneye and she wanted it now!
so i bought the game and tried it but i soon found that like every other xbox game, it had horrible gameplay and even graphics had a lot of glitches at some points. for example goldeneye's eye looked more silver than gold to me. there's no surprise that according to the recent netcraft study the game sold something close to 5 (five) copies in both japan and europe combined.
anyway what this post is all about is that mere minutes after starting the game with my girlfriend, the xbox caught on fire, causing the giant oversized controller my girlfriend was holding to explode, setting her hands on fire. we managed to put out the fire on her hands (which had burned up to the elbows by now) but unfortunately the fire managed to spread to the carpet and soon the entire house was on fire. now we are homeless and its all bill gates fault.
hows that?
and turn retailers into surrogate parents.
Okay! Let's allow cigarrettes and alcohol to be sold to minors! The kids are responsible, who are we to tell them they can't buy something! It's very probable they were sent by their parents to buy them... besides, we don't want to turn the clerks are surrogate parents, do we? (/sarcasm)
Pardon me from being redundant and captain of the obvious, but the real motivation is because the game industry will lose LOTS OF MONEY with this law.
The crowed was not surprised by this.
"In soviet russia.." someone shouted ".. football bans YOU!"
Did I say that? I don't see anywhere where I said that you should lock your kids up.
I said that you should keep your kids at home if they can't behave in public, and barring that, if you need to take them somewhere that you need to make sure that you have control of them at all times so that they are not running around screaming.
I have no doubt that there are very tough issues when raising mentally handicapped children. But do not make your problem everyone's problem by failing to control your kids. Then, making matters worse, you resort to physical violence when someone attempts to curb your kid's behavior? How can you possibly teach your children anything if you are willing to physically assault anyone who questioned their bad behavior?
I repeat again, you are not only failing your children, you are abusing them. You are teaching them that any behavior is acceptable in public.
It would be one thing to ban the sale of games based on a certain rating, like prohibiting those 12 and under to purchase rated T games, or prohibiting minors from buying rated Adult and/or Mature games. Once you start definiging OUTSIDE of the ratings, like any games with sex, violence, cop killing, etc, then that is going into censorship.
Someone FINALLY clues into what I have said to my peer group (and been sound berated for) It's about bloody time parents started taking responsibility for their offspring.
I have always maintained that kids blaming their anti-social behavior on video games, music, movies, etc was a cop-out, a way of deflecting blame and reducing their possible heavy sentence.
I grew up watching the Big Bunny & Roadrunner Show. The most violent cartoons of their time (not to mention Tom & Jerry) and I don't go around smacking people with a 2X4. I was also seriously seriously teased throughout my grade school life. I also thought about grabbing a gun and blowing away more than a few of my fellow students. I didn't because.......
MY PARENTS TOOK AN INTEREST IN RAISING ME!!!!!!!
Parenting is not just having offspring but also raising that offspring to be a productive member of society wether they be ditch-digger, philosopher, politician or scientist. It doesn't matter what they become as long as they contribute to society rather than interfering with it.
I know this is kind of a rant/lecture but I care about human-kind. (Plus I've have a couple of Canadian-strength beers)
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
If parenting is such a burden to the common whiny parent, then I move to totally eliminate the entire parental concept and let the government control all infants born in our fine nation. Such a radical thing could not exist in our current form of government, so it is necessary to remake our government to satisfy these claims. Anyone who has read 'Platos Republic' would have a good idea of what I am suggesting, but I will enlighten you all on my interpretation and opinion on how our current culture would design this fabulous creation.
Ahemm...
We need to destroy our constitution, human rights, marriage, religion, and of course, the common family unit consisting of a father, mother, and children. With our clean slate, we are now free to craft this new republic.
First off, a child is born and immediately sent into government processing. (I will explain how the child was produced later)
1 - Government is responsible for raising the child, this includes housing, feeding, and education.
-> Child lives in a type of nursery where trained (Beta) females, headed by an (Alpha) female, would raise all infants until the point of basic language comprehension (Typically 3 years of age). Other responsibilities would include recognizing birth defects, mental and physical retardations. Such children would be removed from the nursery and experimented on so as to identify the causes of these defects, they are later terminated.
-> Children passed the age of 3 are then formed into logical clusters based on specified breeding arrangements from their parents. They are then dormed together so that each cluster will receive a unique program of education designed to bring out the expected results concluding from their eugenic pattern.
-> Education typically involves physical training, lingual understandings and comprehensions, mathematics, sciences, technology, and creativity. (History, Philosophy, and Art doesn't exist anymore. We want our children to be intelligent, but we don't need them to 'Think')
-> Graduation from this education system will determine what classifications each child will have within our republic.
I will break these classifications down into 3 categories and then reduce each category by gender.
[Alpha Male & Female]
-> Forms the collective governemt to rule its people. All nation affecting decisions are decided solely on individuals who qualified necessary characteristics from their education. These people are not elected, but instead chosen products of perfect excellence who understand fully the needs and growths of our fine nation.
-> Designs all the mating patterns of the populace, combining both physical prowess and acedemic brilliance in hopes of producing a new generation of more superior (Alphas).
-> Forms all departments of theoretical sciences and invention.
-> Elders become professors in order to educate newer generations.
[Alpha Females]
-> Heads all nurseries so as to maximize the efficiency of infant growth.
[Beta Males & Females]
-> Organizes the developments of the common national needs, such as, food & water, medicine, transportation, government controls, and military.
-> Provides foundations to encourage creativity, entertainment, and growth. (Video games, movies, music and what not would occur here.)
-> Organizes breeding programs with the intention to produce a new generation to maintain these (Beta) programs.
[Beta Females]
-> Responsible for raising all infants produced for the government.
[Delta Males]
-> Those lacking in education are put into greater physical training programs and then placed in the military, programmed to be a meat shield for our nation, protecting and enforcing its interests upon the world.
-> Mental and physical experimentations for a wide array of reasons. Mainly to determine why eugenic expectations failed. Also to create cybernetic and geneti
If i wanted to hear bullshit, i'd go to church.
How do you propose I do that manacles and ankle chains hancuffed to a chain around my waist.
Are you going to do my grocery shopping for me.
Perhaps if you provided trained, qualified support as mandated by the law. I might be able to have a life that doesn't affect yours.
When a registered nurse tells you she'll never sit for your child again, even though your paying her the wages a registered nurse would make at the local hospital, what would you do?
Tell you what I do, take my son along. You have no idea what I have or haven't tried to teach my son or how qaulified I am as a parent.
Tell you what "expert dude" why don't you give your local ARC a call and volunteer to give that single parent a break for one night a week to do their shopping. Get into the thick of it then let me know if you still think you have the right to scold or discipline my child.
If you still think you've that right then I've the right to discipline your ass with a frozen turkey upside the head. Any stranger who messes with my child is going to get hurt.
i'm a michigan resident in my late 20's...when i buy booze its i usually get carded 50% of the time. i remember when i purchased doom 3 last year, the chick who rang me up asked me for my id, and not a year before that, some kid carded me when i wanted to buy tickets to a rated r movie.
is it just me, or is the fact that its easier to buy booze than it is for me to watch a show or play a game really illustrate just how fucked and buracratic we've become.
dude.
Post is a parrot. Moderators are idiots.
The fact is, YOUR standards are not MY standards. Kids are growing retarded. It isn't some genetic problem, or lead in the water. It is that most of the population is either ignoring their kids, or like you, trying to "protect" them to the point of retarding them.
If the only parent that would buy Grand Theft Auto for thier child is either a psychopath, or woefully ignorant, then the government SHOULD step in. In fact, there are parents that are good parents, and have tought their kids what is real and what is not. Heck some parents even teach their kids that the things in GTA DO happen, but that you don't want any part of it in real life, just as you might teach your kid that whale hunting isn't a good idea, even though you let them read Moby Dick.
I will absolutly let my child play games like GTA, although GTA likely won't be around by the time he wants to play games that complicated. I won't do it because I'm not paying attention. I will let him play because I am. And I'll play WITH him.
PWN3D!
Don't you get it? You say you don't want anyone to discipline your child, and I can understand that. However, if you think that it is okay/perfectly fine to have your boy uncontrolled in any place where you cannot give him your attention, you not only run the risk of him hurting himself or hurting someone else, but also the risk that someone will hurt him. You bring him to a place for which he is not prepared and then let him run free.
If a trained professional is unwilling/unable to deal with your child, how much less willing and able do you think the general public is? How long until some store manager gets assaulted by your son? How long until some little old lady is bitten?
Then you lash out when someone tries to put the brakes on your son's behavior. Rather than apologizing for his behavior, as you would if you had any shred of common courtesy, you threaten physical violence.
I understand that you are incredibly stressed and probably are filled with anger. And there isn't anything I or anyone else can do about it. There is only you and how you comport yourself and how you help comport your son. If it means restraining him at the store for his own safety and the safety of others, why aren't you willing to do that?
Chevolet makes a lovely sports car called the Corvette. It's a bit crude compared to European sports cars, but it's as fast as a Ferrari for a third the price. They should be allowed to make such cars, and people should be allowed to drive them. Parents should not buy them for 16 year olds the day they get their licences, but it's not up to anyone else to enforce that.
That should be, instead, "Ultimately, he concluded, judges, not parents or government or industry, must be the gatekeepers of what comes in the home.'"
Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean you can get a judge to throw it out. They aren't the 'mommy and daddy' of the nation. If you don't like the law, get it overturn in the legislative system. This is a democracy, not a parliament with a dominant king who can dispose of parlaiment at will.
A poor attempt.
I wasn't aware that books were considered entertainment anymore. Learn something new everyday I guess.
i believe you mean Id software. DOOM is a product and as such can't own anything.
I understood references to DOOM in such contexts as references to a hypothetical "Doom division" of Id Software, analogous to the Windows Core OS Division of Microsoft. This would be the division of Id responsible for developing the Doom(tm) engine and marketing it to other game developers, using tech-de^W games such as Doom 3.
Where are kids getting the $40-70 to buy a Grand Theft game in the first place?
Cash or checks or gift cards enclosed in birthday greeting cards, for one. Paper routes, for another.
When I was a boy growing up in England, I had a nanny. She was very strict. When I was a bad boy, she'd spank me. She'd spank me, Lazlow. And now, Freddie needs a nanny because Freddie's been a very naughty boy.
When the MPAA for movies, the FCC for television or the Comic Book Code really started flexing their power it was always followed by a long period of bland (but unobjectionable) product. This practice will be particularly pronounced in the games industry, where originality and innovation are already on the decline.
Companies such as Nintendo and Namco make all sorts of innovative E- and T-rated games. What was Super Smash Bros. rated? What about Custom Robo or WarioWare or Katamari Damacy or Donkey Konga or Pac-Pix? Are they objectionable? No. But are they bland? No. As long as the EVERYONE division of each of these leaders in EVERYONE games continues to follow in its own footsteps, you'll still have plenty of non-bland games to choose from.
I don't give a shit about your children seeing violence or nudity. If you want to protect them from the dangerous exposure to violence and nudity, don't have children. Its that simple.
If you can't do that, don't try to change the laws in some moronic attempt to protect your kids because you can't pass the law that will stop reality from reaching your child.
Its as if people think that if their kids never see violence or sex that they'll somehow be some kind of snow-white pure adult. Let me tell you something, those who go around trying to pass protective laws are the ones who have the worst kids. I'm not the only one who knows a preacher's kid who is the most depraved child in the neighborhood, and its not the kids he or she hangs out with that corrupt him/her.
So get off the kick that a minor level of exposure to violence or nudity or sexual content has any lasting impact on your child. And if you are worried about the kids they hang out with, how much time are you pushing your kids to their friends' houses anyway?
Parental discretion is enough. If your kid is exposed to this stuff at a friends house, he/she is going to be ok unless they spend more time at the friends house than they do with you, in which case, you, as the parent, are still to blame.
So... the ticket-seller is allowed to sell a ticket to a NC-17 movie to a minor?
Two errors in your analogy:
Minors aren't allowed in certain places... like where they sell alcohol and have
Other responsibilities would include recognizing birth defects, mental and physical retardations. Such children would be removed from the nursery and experimented on so as to identify the causes of these defects, they are later terminated.
Almost every human being is born defective in some way, and most of us are mentally retarded compared to people in the upper echelons of Mensa.
where is the soma?
Check your spam folder. I'm sure a lot of scambags that want to sell you Vi@G`R4 and ><3N1CA|_ would like to sell you some S0|V|A too.
Learn more about Soma® (carisoprodol)
People will reinvent/preserve "History, Philosophy, and Art" forever, no matter what happens, as it is a naturally emergent trait of a thinking mind.
Even in the presence of broad and de facto perpetual copyright law that, once enough works are created and published, creates a chilling effect on creation of new works?
Can't someone give me a damn link for this bill? I live in MI, and though it won't stop me from buying games, IE i'm not a minor, it'd be nice to read what they're trying to pass. But yet, I cannot find it in that link. So help me out please! Thank you. This is what I think. 17+ games shouldnt be sold to anyone under 17. It's the same for renting rated R movies, you have to be 17(or maybe it was 18, my minds fried right now). Now should the game company be sued? No. Should the retailer be sued? Yes. If the retailer is selling games to minors when the rating is clearly on there, they should be sued. It's standard practice not to sell 17+ material to minors. I don't get the big problem over this. Retailers shouldn't be second parents, but they should be following the ratings. Parents who buy those 17+ for their 10 year olds are just dumb parents, or they have really mature 10 year olds...riiiiiight.
Flat Screen TV for F
Seems a lot of people here are over-reacting, including the ESA.
/ billenrolled/senate/htm/2005-SNB-0416.htm
All this bill does, as best as I can understand it, is prevent a retailer from selling a "naughty" game to someone under 18.
It's nothing different than the age requirements for an R-Rated movie at the movie theatre. It simply says that little Johnny can't plunk down $50 and buy GTA.
If Johnny tries, and suceeds, then the retailer who sold it to him can be fined. If a game is given a Mature/Adult rating, then shouldn't we enforce it at the retail level like we do movies?
I'm all for parental supervision, but mom can't watch Johnny 24/7. If I were a parent, I would want to know that my kid couldn't go buy GTA without an adult's assistance.
BTW, the entire bill can be read here:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006
-David
... after reading the article. I am a taxpaying Michigan citizen, and I am wondering, WTF is going to pay for that Canuck's mistake (Granholm- no I am not fond of her. Does anyone know that Michigan's governor was a citizen of Canada?!? Sounds fishy to me...No offense to our northerly neighbors either.) This lawsuit ultimately falls on the pockets of Michigan taxpayers... HOW does this happen!?!? The funny thing is, we had no involvment regarding the passing of this bill (ergo, the representatives in the Michigan legislature that we "voted" for) Is it just me, or is this whole government thing getting a little out of hand? Since when does the US government have morals? I thought those were abolished... Oh, BTW, (O.T.) you non-michigan viewers will get a kick out of this. Apparently this same state has a law against cursing in public in front of children (which I could understand) and women. I had a friend that went to court for that one. Can I just buy a ticket to the moon, and live there? This is ludicris!
This useless space for sale, inquire at front desk.
just reading the article, i totally agree. instead of making numerous posts criticizing others beliefs i will just stick with this. and god god damn any slashdot member thinks there is a problem with this article. (I gotz me a bigo' tree out bak 4 ya)
Promise Keepers would be great if it wasn't for the incessently bible-bashing nature of it. You can do all these things that matter, and there need not be any religious angle on it at all. Which isn't to say that you can't add a religious side to it if you wish, but why exclude non-religious, moral people from it? (Do you perhaps see us as inferior humans?)
As a moral atheist, it really annoys me at times that we are automatically seen as somehow inferior and less moral than those who follow any particular religion. If anything, we are more moral, because our only reason for doing good is because we want to do it - why should we care otherwise, when there is no retribution to be feared? I do good because it is good, end of story.
So, I'm going to suggest a re-write of their list of seven promises, as follows:
Promise Keepers - Seven Promises For All Men:
There you go - just as much, if not more bite, with stronger commitment to all humans, and minus the religious bias. There is no reason you couldn't promise the above and apply whatever faith you have (or none whatsoever) to the way you carry out your promises in daily life. If the promises are worth making, they shouldn't deliberately exclude anyone.
So I ask you: who needs any kind of god to make them moral? Does not having a religion automatically make you a bad father? Do those who commit to each other and raise families, yet remain unmarried, automatically make worse parents?
Because I know a whole bunch of people who prove otherwise, and hope to be as strong, if not a stronger symbol of good human values (with no need whatsoever for religion) to my own kids one day.
Organic free-range music... yum!
>>The populace, under 18, needs to be prevented from pr0n, booze, weapons, and in this particular case, violent video games or those video games with adult images in them.
>>>No, they don't. European children manage to handle nudity and alcohol at younger ages, and they're turning out all right. Hell, they have lower rates of teen pregnancy than the US.
Yes, they do.
Consider the Euros then: no doubt nice people. I've been many times across the pond in my lucky life. Have numerous friends both in the UK and on the continent. They'll disagree with you, too. They reel at GTAs use by children just as I do.
-Nudity is fine. Pr0n is not nudity-- it's adult sex.
-Alcohol in moderation is fine, but when a child can get mickeys of JD at school, it's not. Social consumption culture of alcohol is decidedly different between the EC and the US.
-Specious citations comparing teen pregnancy rates tries to tie unrelated issues together and isn't valid in this context.
We disagree of the age when these adult things can be considered consumed by an adult mind. 18 is arbitrary, but it's a good number until another test comes along that our nutso government can agree on. Until then, let the parent make the choice, it's their right and obligation and responsibility.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I live in Michigan. SB 416 restricts sale or rental of violent or sexually explicit video games *to minors*. TFA conveniently fails to reveal that point.
According the to the bill folks 18 and over can buy or rent anything they want.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
I played Super Mario Brothers earlier. I then tried to break brick with my head. I'm bleeding quite profusely. Who do I sue? Seriously though, this law is just another example of the mass devolution our society is taking. As a teacher, I see the direct result of parents who do not take proper care and make the appropriate effort in raising their children. It is your responsibility to teach, raise, and yes discipline your children. No one elses. You can try and make any argument you like, but any person with even a shread of common sense and decency knows that it is their job to teach their children right from wrong. Our society has made everyone a victim. In the past, parents would be mortified to see inappropriate behavior from their children. They understood that their children are a reflection of them. Today, many parents believe that they are no longer to blame. Their children are a reflection of society, not themselves. When you start distancing yourself from your own child and their behavior, is it even your child anymore? Should the ESRB rating system be more strictly enforced? Yes. No question. Gamers and non-gamers alike know that it is far too easy for a child to purchase a game rated beyond their level. But that enforcement should fall squarely on the shoulders of the parent. The retailer should take steps to train employees in the rating system, but should not be ultimately responsible for censoring expression. It may take the village to raise a child, but it is the parent that must provide shelter.
Lawsuits and lobbying are never going to work. Why not just take all those resources and money and run an ad campaign? We run these baby's in between episodes of Lost or everybody loves Raymond or whatever these people watch, and make the statement that it's the parents responsibility to watch what games your children are playing. Not the governments. And since they saw it on T.V. it must be true! Then people will start doing something.
Game Scenario:
You grab a bat and beat the crap out of white male and steal his money, pick a gun a shoot him while he bleeds.
It's that fun?
A: Yes.
The male is Jew. Is that fun?
A: No.
The male is now a female, she's a whore.
Is that fun?
A: Yes.
The female is now a male, he's gay..is that fun?
A: No.
The guy is now hispanic, some mafioso latino looking guy..is that fun?
A: Yes.
The guy now is Black...is that fun?
A: Yes.
The guy is now a kid..is that fun?
A: No.
The guy is Arab is that fun?
A: Yes.
The guy is Jamaican, Caribbean..is that fun?
A: Yes.
The guy is a police officer.. is that fun?
A: Yes.
Now that we learn your taste, Mr. American guy, should your "fun" game be sold in the same store where children gets their games?
A: Sure! Just clearly label it that it's for me.
Diagnosis: A clearly disturbed mind making clearly ditrubed decisions.
A: Yes.
from people who get their philosophy on how to live life from science fiction novels.
Heres where you jump up and down and tell me "you don't know the history of spanking children! I do!"
Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
I had completely lost my temper yesterday when I wrote to Assembly member Yee which wrote the crappy bill theyre trying to get passed in California that is ALMOST as bad as the one in MI. Unfortunately I was so mad that my grammar and writing suffered horribly, not even sure how much sense I ended up making to tell the truth, but at least I said something so I felt better getting it off my chest.
To: Assemblymember.Yee@assembly.ca.gov Subject: I dont want to live in your Utopia Mr. Yee, Since you are going to go ahead and decide what My kids can experience instead of me why don't you go Ahead and raise them yourself. That way you make sure They legally can't have a McDonalds Happy Meal more Than once a month, they have to eat at least one green Vegetable a day and the police can throw you in jail If you don't stand guard over them while they brush Their teeth three times a day? I think what you Should do is get a grip on your self righteous save The world attitude and worry about saving yourself From the "utopian" society you are eventually going to Create by pushing bills like this through. Oh yeah There are hundreds if not thousands of studies that Show conclusively that "utopian societies" are a Horrible idea and inhumane at the basest levels. We are doing just fine without you and all the Other control freak politicians that would like to have The government do everything for us including wiping Our asses. There is a major flaw in your bill Mr. Yee, I can still rent video games for my kids... or is that going to be illegal also? You going to throw me in jail for making the decision on what is ok for my kids to do and what's not? You better hurry up and edit that bill to include that if not, we wouldn't want you To leave a loophole for us Satan worshipping, video Game supporting, heavy metal listening parents to slip Through now would we? Spend your time on something Useful Mr. Yee, like fighting Porn, Now there is a real Threat to our society, never mind the terrorists. Sincerely, Jason D. Blevins Living in Indiana instead of Caly for a reason!
Jay Dale "If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!"
Remember, it's only a free-market economy until you do something the people in charge don't like or makes them look bad.
If I have to read one more post where someone seriously tries to compare video games to alcohol and tobacco I think I will scream...and possibly throw myself out of my office window.
There are two main camps in this thread, and one camp that's not represented at all.
The one that's not here is the "Lets have Government responsible for everything." NO ONE has suggested anything clsoe to that....much to the displeasure of those who want to yell at someone for suggesting it.
The two camps we do have are...
1. People who first present the responsibility of the parents, and then present the role of the government to 'help' the parents with that responsibility.
versus
2. People who say the parents are 'solely' responsible for their children and that the government shouldn't come anywhere near.
The question I have is 'who teaches responsibility.' If the parents are alone in raising children, then irresponsible parents will have irresponsible children. It follows logically that those children will be less responsible with 'having' children than the 'good' kids, so the problem will snowball until the world is MOSTLY comprised of irresonsible people and civilization will devolve into anarchy.
And besides...you're all beating up your own strawmen. No one has EVER made a law saying a parent couldn't buy WHATEVER game they wanted for their kids. The laws have always said that if the parents want the kids to have it....then the parent has to buy it themselves.
Who cares if a group with voluntary membership has rules that involve fines? It's not a law.
"That's what happens with a fucking chick in public office."
How truly pathetic to see such vicious sexism on slashdot. Is this 2005,or 1905?
you missed the isle where books including sarcasm are shelved.
There's already a precedent on the books for states controlling minor's access to content deemed "harmful": access to viewing of human bodies possibly engaged in legal sexual acts.
Now here is a case of a government wanting to restrict a minor's access to entertainment and training video's promoting violence and murder -- things that are not only illegal, but growing problems in our socieity.
Hello...does the word "bassackwards" mean anything? What screwy with this situation? The United States has its priorities way screwed up in this area.
It was well noted around the world some of the differences in "3rd" world areas swamped by the Tsunami last summer and area's of a "1st" world swamped by Katrina. There were numerous reports of rape, looting, even of looters shooting down rescue helicopters in New Orleans. Amerika really showed it's colors in how the opportunists responded and how slow the rescue efforts were in helping a less affluent portion of the US (but considerably more so than the Tsunami victim area).
How can we sit around having laws that rate PG rate artful movies like "Sirens" as "R" for nudity, or "Ma vien la Rose" "R" for harmful thought matter (story of a boy who thinks he's a girl) -- things that are thought provoking but by no means illegal, when at the same time, we can allow thousands of TV-Shows and movies to run with multiple murders and varying levels of graphic details of violence to run with a PG or PG-13 rating?
It's just plain insane. The same ratings should be _able_ to be applied to video games -- just as there are laws on the books applying to restricted access to "adult" book and magazine content (where adult means things you can legally do as an adult). But for things you "can't" legally do as an adult, somehow we think that it's fine for those to be unrestricted?
Step aside from your feelings of your personal "rights" being trodden on for just one second and try to look at it from a societal view. Where is the logic in the US's current attitudes towards sex and violence?
Compare and contrast to contries with similar attitudes towards sex and violence (heavily reglious societies...Iran, Iraq, etc.) vs. much of Europe. Check out the violent crime, the gun-assisted crime rate, and the rate of sexual crimes against women and children -- especially in countries like the Netherlands.
GET A CLUE!!!
*shouting against the wind*...
-l
How truly pathetic to see such naivety on Slashdot. Is this 2005,or 1905?
No matter how many hours you watched those shows, it was glaringly obvious that the characters were fictional.
The closer the characters get to real people (and in games and of course movies this is astonishingly close) the faster imitation (an innate learning mechanism in children, but also in adults) takes place.
We have all heard many instances in which children get injured by donning a Superman cape and jumping from the window believing they are going to fly.
Other example, of which USian and other audiences may not be fully aware is wrestling. In Mexico wrestlers are quasi mytical people, I would say pretty much akin to superheroes (i.e. not taken seriously but by children). Children very often get injured trying to imitate these wrestlers. For 30 years the goverment took notice and banned wrestling on TV and the accidents came to an almost complete stop. Later in the late 80s wrestling was back on TV and the accidents began to happen again.
It is completely disingenous to mantain that children , that learn by imitation, will not be affected in any way if violence in some games is presented in a glamourized way reinforced by positive feedback (the more enemies you kill the more points you get).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Sorry, but you are completely out of place.
Children are not the regular populace. Their freedoms are coerced in many ways because most societies belive (rightly so in my opinion) that there are certain things a child can't handle because he lacks the experience.
The logic summersault that you take from controlling sales of adult material to children to banning books for everybody is frankly farsical.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Unfortunately society has not decided to control books in a similar way, perhaps given they iconic value as a cultural item.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... gives that mandate to a goverment.
If special interest lobbies are getting the best deals out of goverment it is because the popualce is perfectly happy with the situation as it stands.
But some people have difficulty accepting that people delegating some interventionist powers to a goverment (by omission od disinterest in many cases) is perfectly valid in a democratic system.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... denying the blindingly obvious (that violent and explicit material should be regulated when it comes to children) I will do nothing, because gamers have obivously lost touch with reality.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
So, can the TV-companies be fined if I'm a lousy parent and let my kids see x-rated movies at night?
No?
Then why should a game-vendor be fined when "parents don't look at it"?
There's nothing stopping kids from just grabbing anything they want right now, you say. But there is: it's called parents. Whether they always do is irrelevant as the same could be said for numerous things parenting stands for.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
I'm from europe myself, and I'm rather inclined to agree with the parent poster. You have some point, in demonstrating not all levels of pron/booze/etc. is allowed to any age-category, but all in all the attittude is much more relaxed - especially in the non anglo-saxon countries. (Because, according to me, the real difference in mentality lies there, and thus there is less difference between the UK and the USA on those points, then between the mainland and the UK).
;-)
Aside being legally more relaxed, it is often also not actively persued. So, even where they have laws that prohibits minors to go to some films, it is hardly ever enforced.
Ofcourse, selling hardcore porn to a 9 year old will not happen, true. But you *did* say: "The populace, under 18, needs to be prevented from pr0n, booze, weapons, and in this particular case, violent video games or those video games with adult images in them." which is clearly untrue.
The legal age in most countries for those things is 16, not 18. And, as I said, often it is not enforced untill it drops under the age of 12. In some cases, like drinking booze, the legal age is in most countries on the mainland 16, but that is for actually selling to minors. For drinking - for instance, from a parents' glass of beer - there really is no age, and, in fact, people here often let even toddlers sip of their beer.
Which has the advantage they usually don't want to try it out anymore for a long time.
It's a cultural diference, allright, but I do think our approach is healthier then the tight-assed mentality of the USa which wants to 'protect' the children at all costs. And that cost, often, turns at to be exactly at the expense of those kids they claim to protect.
So, no, you're wrong if you think one only can see sexfilms from the age of 18, or drink booze, or even weapons (to some degree, ofcourse) or ideo-games.
The thing *I* am afraid off, to be honest, is that the USA mentality will come here too (it often starts being 'adopted' in the netherlands, after the UK) , and instead of a relaxed attitude, we'll become control-the-kids-freaks as well, in a illusionary attempt to try to force things on kids by external means - which never actually helps, but makes things worse (see the difference in drinking patterns between Belgian and UK youth, for instance).
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
Okay, anyone else see the cycle here? Humanity (or at least the people in the US) is divided into two major parts: those who are intelligent, informed, rational beings, and those are not. Unfortunately, this number is divided just about 50:50. Irrational children get violent mindless games (or books, movies, etc.) from their equally irrational parents, and in their irrational nature, they end up doing something stupid. The parents of the irrational child, rather than having the intelligence to understand that when you create a child you need to raise it properly, blame the violent society around their child and move to have it changed. The government, also being equally divided between the intelligent and the unintelligent, decide to help the uninformed half of the populace (partly to get them to shut up) by creating restrictions to prevent them from obtaining said violent game.
Now, intelligent rational parents are unable to teach their children what they need to know in order to continue being rational members of society because they do not have access to the tools necessary to do so. They in turn turn to the government to protect their children. The uninformed half of the population, being uninformed and unintelligent as they are, see this as an attack on their children rather than an attempt to make everything better, and a political fight breaks out.
This cycle will continue inevitably until either all the stupid or intelligent people are dead. There really isnt any middle ground here guys, sorry. In a society we have two choices, let people make their own decisions (thereby allowing idiots to mess everything up) or to have the government dictate everything to prevent problems (thereby preventing any kind of progress)
There is only one solution that will truly end this conflict. Find the nearest person to you who is the opposite of you, whether you be intelligent or an idiot, and just beat them with a stick. beat them until either they see things through your point of view, or until they're dead. that way, eventually there will be one way of thinking, and noone will have any reason to complain anymore.
--Tackgentry
"You absolutely can't buy anything with nudity if you're under 17,[...]"
;-)
What the..? Where the f- do you live?
Can't be in the EU, in any case.
"[...]and you're going to have hard time getting an R or rated magazine or movie if you're under 13 (isn't that the age?)"
I suppose that "hard time getting" wasn't a pun?
But, seriously, if I can sue someone for selling games because I'm to lousy a parent to parent my own kids, then why can't I sue a TV-company when my kid would watch an x-rated movie at night, but I'm to lousy to parent him then too?
I think there IS a bit of a double standard.
Your explanation of what effects the psyche more then something else is an unsubstantiated opinion; I've never seen any actual scientific measurements, and they are certainly not used or determining the RG rating of games in any objective way. In fact, the whole issue of whether and how much violence and sex has an impact on the youth (let alone would cause traumas) is still under discussion.
In any case, it depends far more on the general attitude about violence, and the context in which your kid sees a book, a movie, a game...then on whether or not it *are* pictures, or a movie, or a game.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
The reason drugs are outlawed isn't because they're bad for you, it's because of all the crime connected to selling them and using them.
...
The scary thing is, I think you're actually serious.
People like you truly amaze and frighten me -- how is it possible to have such an appallingly weak grasp of logic and still function day to day in the real world?
SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM
It took a while to find it, but you've done a bad spelling job. Viz:
Re:Ha! (Score:2)
by Minna Kirai (624281) on Wednesday April 06, @01:29PM (#12156224)
You have accidentally boldfaced the wrong part of the US Constition. Let me help:
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries
When the USA was young (prior to 1860 basically), it could best promote progress by ignoring patents from other nations. If not for the patent-infringing development of factory technology in New England, the South would've won the War of Northern Aggression.
Found at http://www.softpanorama.org/Copyright/index.shtml
Awful, awful stuff. I suggest hari kiri soon.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.