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Toshiba to Demo New Fuel Cell MP3 Players
virgil_disgr4ce tells us The Register is reporting that Toshiba recently unveiled a fuel cell based mp3 player. The pump-less fuel cell technology was first discussed about a year ago but Toshiba said not to expect the fuel cell players to hit the market any time soon. Toshiba, however, does hope that the players running off the fuel cell prototypes, and their methanol cartridges, will get their public debut at CEATEC JAPAN 2005.
when will I be able to buy a cat powered mp3 player?
The batteries double as a stinkbomb
Does it explode if it skips?
*runs for cover*
I wonder how well its sealed from the picture it almost looks like a flap, if thats the case I wouldn't want one leaking all over my backpack/jacket pocket. My mp3 player now gets throwen all over the place, I would hate to have to worry about if it will leak on my work papers.
Why are they wasting their time on mp3 players? An mp3 player that can run for 35 hours (per the article) is not much more useful than an mp3 player that can run for 12 hours... but a laptop that could run for 12 hours instead of 4 hours (assuming a 3:1 payoff when compared to traditional batteries) would be incredibly useful.
what to do with the water?
....to go from "will be released in 2005" to "will be released in 2007" between 2004 and now.
Rob
While I am excited to see fuel cells advance, I don't see the draw for this type of application beyond the niche of people with too much money.
As a poor college student, I avoid recurring costs as much as possible. Rechargeable batteries may suck in terms of energy density compared to this cartidge/fuel cell combination, but the cost of electricity is relatively cheap to the point of being free. Does anyone really want to run out and buy catridges constantly if they want to use their mp3 player every day?
Beyond cost, the fact that outlets are much more convenient than running to the store (or carrying around a bunch of spare catridges, negating the smallness of your mp3 player) is big turnoff for me.
Has anyone else here ever had exposure to 99.5% methanol? Nasty stuff. Toxic, and readily absorbed through the skin. I really can't imagine this being approved by any governmental agency. How about flying on an airplane with 150 or 200 methanol powered fuel cells? No thanks.
In a surprise announcement today, Toshiba Japan announced that it was recalling it's Methanol Powered batteries from the market after users reported missing limbs, including fingers, hands, and chunks of leg.
Toshiba spokesperson Udai appeared shocked, "We really thought mixing electricity and methanol was a good idea" he stated. Initial reports of these small explosions from the MP3 players appear to be caused by the music pop sensation Brittany Spears. Estimates to this point indicate that over 50% of her fan base has lost at least one finger up to the knuckle rendering the frustrated users incapable of using the mp3 player. Cries of "dammit" could be heard from Junior High Schools across the nation.
The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.
I haven't studied the technology enough to understand it but I have heard some people say that Fuel Cells have a short lifespan.
Is this true, or is this just rumours, or a problem that will eventually be solved?
I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.
How would you recharge this ? Methanol isn't too common a substance, partially because it is some nasty stuff. (Flamable, toxic, etc.)
So instead of some form of battery acid leaking if you somehow manage to kill your battery, you get methanol leaking which easily absorbs through skin. Aye.
That's ignoring how you would get whatever to refill it with anyway. Imagine having to buy a special methanol pack - which, of course, wouldn't be standard any more than current cellulars' batteries are standard. (Imagine the prices they could charge here - and they would have to, as transport to stores, putting it on shelves, etc. is much more costly than...) . But you don't have to buy a new battery each time, you recharge it (...than transport of electricity - factoring everything in.)
So perhaps you could refill using a bottle/can, much like cigarette lighters. Well yes, perhaps so... but consider traveling with this (think FAA regulations and whatnot)? And taking it with you everywhere ? Because unlike electricity, you can't just get this out of a wall 'hose' like you would electricity out of a wall outlet - and that's a good thing.
Of course if you're going out to the middle of nowhere, it would be easier to take a bottle of methanol with you than it would be to find a wall outlet. On the other hand, if you're going out to the middle of nowhere, perhaps your cellular isn't going to do you much good anyway. And if you're going to be in the middle of nowhere with your laptop, I'd imagine you'd have a car to charge off of, or at least a second battery, and probably a base camp where you -do- have some form of electricity available to you.
Some may claim that methanol is better for the environment - it burns clean after all... but from the source of the methanol down to the end-user, is it really that much cleaner ? Think extraction, purification, packaging, distribution, etc.
Don't get me wrong, it can be wonderful technology - but for cellulars ? I have my doubts. For laptops ? Maybe if my laptop would run for 16 hours straight on it instead of 2.5 hours (my laptop is not often idle). But that appears doubtful, and I'd still have all the above issues.
I have held off on buying an MP3 player because I can't find one that supports OGG, has a radio in it, and gets good battery life. Assuming Toshiba puts one out that meets the first two specifications and has generous amounts of storage, I think I would look into this one.
Right now, I have a Sony ATRAC3 MP3/CD player. It gets 50 hour battery life on 2 AA batteries, and has virtually unlimited storage (as many 700MB CDs as I feel like carrying), plus it only cost $100 or so when it was purchased. Granted, it doesn't support OGG, but when I got it I didn't know about OGG.
In addition, I bought my laptop that I'm on right now from Toshiba Labor Day weekend 2003, and I've already decided I'm not buying a new one until Toshiba releases their new laptops that (according to the article I read a while back) charge 80% in 15 minutes with little discharge.
I also recall an article about a fuel-cell based laptop, lasted something like 15 hours on one fueling. Don't remember if it was Toshiba or another company.
Where are all these things? I've heard so much about them and I'm sure I'm not the only one anxiously awaiting them. Toshiba and any other companies need to hurry up and get these things out the door, as they will solve many of the biggest battery-related problems.
Problem arises with a Variable. Batteries you just plug in, and go. Fuel Cells you refill? Half the public would be clueless. Some might even drink this fuel, or use it for their car.
~The TwoTailedFox posts again....
Memo from the Marketing Department:
Old and busted: underwear showing above your belt
The new hotness: looking like you just peed yourself
Seriously, is an MP3 player something that needs that kind of power longevity the most? I would rather have a cell phone or flashlight that lasts longer. At least now there are LED flashlights, but even a luxeon LED light can go dead in less than 8 hours.
That's cute and all, and I'm sure the science is fascinating to some, but the question I have is how much will this cost?
If I can pay less to recharge my 6h-capacity battery 10 times than to fill up my 60h-capacity fuel cell, then there's no point in switching technologies.
I am scientifically inaccurate.
"Battery" technology takes a lot of incremental improvement. Especially to improve its performance under many varied environmental conditions, including heatup/cooldown and storage in mobile devices. That's why mass-market devices are so important. Mass marketing MP3 players with fuelcells offers reinvestable profits and even more important feedback to revisions. Toshiba is paving the way for fuelcells to offer superior performance and convenience. While rolling out slick devices that generate demand. Taking these risks with fuelcell devices that are just safe and performing enough to impress is a bold move by Toshiba that will pay off in leadership in this entire technology, wherever it's deployed over the next century.
--
make install -not war
I read that at first as a METHANE powered fuel cell If my laptop or MP3 player dies, I'd just pull my finger...
Ian Ameline
Excellent chance to create an integrated MP3 player cigarette lighter ;-)
35 hours for the smaller model and 60 hours for the larger HDD device
So that means refilling methanol every week. I think I will pass and stick to my Ipod as it recharges itself when I plug it into the USB port to change songs.
What does your Credit Report look like?
On average, a butane refill cannister (for cigarette lighters) runs around $2-$3 for around 300 ml.
Judging from the yields, you could refill the fuel cell at the cost of one of those butane bottles for a month (and $2 a month is pretty danged cheap).
Would it take any major doing to redesign the fuel cell to process butane?
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
They lock you into buying stuff. Ok, it lasts longer, but you cant plug it into the wall when you get home and have it good for another 12 hours... you gotta go out and buy more fuel canisters.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
OMG IAN AMELINE, you ARE the clever one!
If carbon-dioxide is a byproduct, then why are we trying to do this? Someday, the EPA might have to check MP3 player emissions. Let's hope not.
"I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm."
I don't see how iso-propanol would be any better. The stuff is still poisonous and flammable.
However, if you do some legwork on the technology, you'll find that they're not using straight alcohol for fuel cells. It's often a very dilute solution of 5% or so in distilled water. At that concentration, it'd take a lot of effort to ignite the methanol, and you're not likely to poison yourself with it at that concentration.
As for ethanol, it'd probably be just as diluted as the methanol for this application. Given that you'd probably have a very small tank of fuel solution in something the size of a AA or 9volt battery (about the right size for portable consumer electronics), you'd probably have to suck down a few hundred thousand batteries to get drunk. Add to that, the probable cost of each battery (even assuming they're as cheap as current alkalines), it would be cheaper and easier to just buy a bottle of Vodka.
Everyone is complaining about how this stuff is dangerous/flamable and everything but have you consider what you put into your car? You put gasoline into your car, a highly flamable substance every day. You put batteries filled with acid inside your remotes every day, have you ever seen one of those things explode? Its quite nasty, and having that acid get onto your skin burns pretty badly. I am interested in how you would recharge, if you would have to buy little cans of the stuff and spray back into the battery (imagine instant recharge times). This consideration for weight really isnt a problem with Mp3 players, especially since there already so light it really doesnt matter. I do wonder what this would mean for laptops/pda's/portable laptops/DS/PSP. If it hits big it could mean alot of extensive battery time for alot of big portable electronics.
First you have to fill up with Toxis methanol, then you have to breath CO2 fumes ?
No thanks....
Essentially this is just a word of caution, Toshiba has in the past had faulty designs on overpriced hardware and screwed over the people who buy their products. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, Toshiba claimed guilt on both of their laptop design class action law suits.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
...I *hope* they don't start charging 5.95$ for an ounce of really cheap alcohol in a 'special can". IF the tech works good, they don't need to gouge on the fuel reloads.
just kvetching in advance is all, looking at generic corporate track records, ie, cellphone 70$, replacement battery 59.95$, stuff like that. Methanol is like a few dollars a gallon now, something like that, cheap, so beware the tiny filler-up cans.
You're joking, right? Methanol is an ondinary alcohol from methane (CH4) just like ethanol is an alcohol from ethane (C2H6). Ethanol is alcohol 'as we know it' of course.
Indeed, methanol has somewhat of a bad reputation because it makes you blind, but it is FAR from difficult to get. As far as I know it is easily manufactured and a common by-product of fermentation of beers, wine etc. Apparently its effect is limited when mixed with (more) ethanol (present in drinks), I have heard (not sure) that if you go to a hospital with methanol intixocation, you are fed ethanol intraveinously to counter it. AFAIK the major causes of blindness are illegal distilleries (crooks selling 'bad' liquor), NOT people accidentally drinking a bottle of pure methanol.
Anyway, methanol is a very common household product, used for cleaning, degreasing, fondue sets... Ok, it is not safe to drink but neither is gasoline, cleaning agents etc.
"Cheap" is on the opposite end of the spectrum from how I'd describe current alkalines.
Shoot Pixels, Not People!
My hand touched her hand. Her hand touched her boob. By the transitive property, I got some boob! Algebra is awesome!
You realize that she does finger herself, right?
eom
The Luddites were ahead of their time.
Which model Sony player do you have? I'm in the market, and haven't found any helpful reviews online.
Thanks!
I've never, ever seen a model that burned plain methanol--unless it was designed to run on gasoline, then it would probably work. Most models burn some combination of nitromethane and methanol and it always has some good oil stuff in the fuel (caster and synthetic oils), and I sincerely doubt that a fuel cell is going to love that.
"3.5ml for the 100mW unit and 10ml for the 300mW cell. The 100mW cell can generate sufficient current for 35 hours of playback time, while the larger unit can operate the HDD-based device for 60 hours."
(100mW * 60s:min * 60min:h * 35h) / 3.5ml = 3600j:ml
(300mW * 60s:min * 60min:h * 60h) / 10ml = 6480 j:ml
In other words, 10:3.5::35::60? If these cells differ only in their fuel capacity, how come the 10ml version gets almost double the power efficiency? And how come they're getting (at most) only <2% the energy from methanol (24.5Mj:gal) as that contained in equivalent volumes of gasoline (1.3Gj:gal) ?
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make install -not war
Methanol has 35% the energy content of gasoline. Ethanol has 59%. Ethanol's two carbons yield double the CO2 (Greehouse) gas product as methanol's single carbon, but it ultimately produces only 85% the CO2 as does methanol, per "vehicle mile traveled" (95% of gasoline).
However, that table shows that ethanol produces 130% the "CO2 equivalent" (overall Greenhouse effect) waste gases as does gasoline per VMT. Considering the larger volumes of less-potent fuel to be produced, transported and filled into tanks, each operation with its own per-transaction energy consumption, the "Greenhouse efficiency" of ethanol seems significantly worse than that of gasoline. I'd like to see energy budget numbers on the transformation of methanol or ethanol into gasoline. If it costs less than 1/3 of the alcohol's energy content, it seems like we should be using alcohol fuelcells only for efficiently powering the ethanol->gasoline industry. And rolling out high-efficiency "gasoline cells" for our end-user devices, like MP3 players and cars. Considering the energy we'd save by reusing our vast existing gasoline infrastructure, we might be better off stuck with gasoline indefinitely. Though getting rid of the expensive desert tracts we currently convert into gasoline, in favor of, say, amber waves of grain (corn, sugarcane), might be the best way to save our planet for ourselves.
--
make install -not war
Even though the cells run on methanol instead of ethanol (although they probably will run just fine on ethanol too), I can't believe nobody has made a reference to Bender yet...
This is *such* a good idea - but I guarantee it'll get screwed up by the big corporates:
IN UTOPIA:
In an ideal world, there would be an industry-wide standard for the little container of fuel - there would be 50 manufacturers of them world-wide and they would be easy to find, interchangeable and CHEAP (just like AA batteries).
Their life is much longer than batteries and they pollute much less.
HOORAY!
IN THE REAL WORLD:
In the real world, they will be like ink cartridges. Locked up to the wazoo with encrypted interfaces - unrefillable - unique not only to one manufacturer - but perhaps even to one model in their range. They'd be impossible to find in any store anywhere in the world - and they would cost an absolute fortune. Since there is no way to replace them with regular batteries, you're completely screwed.
GACK! Give me back my battery-operated devices!
Which do you think we'll end up with?
The pressure to sell portable consumer items like MP3 players, PDA's, etc for bottom dollar will cause manufacturers to give away the players for much less than they cost - then do the 'bait and switch' trick and charge 100x more for an ethanol cartridge than they actually cost to make.
Consumers don't like that in printers - let's not let that happen for MP3 players, etc.
www.sjbaker.org
If you RTFA, you'll find that they're storing methanol in a 99.5% concentration in the fuel cell and diluting it later in the process.
A solid state player runs a whole month on a single AAA cell. How is a fuel cell going to be any better?
Oh well, what the hell...
I challenge you to find a laptop manufacturer that hasn't had those types of problems. Dell's had it's share of exploding battery packs and fire hazard power adapters. HP's had it's share problems, including the memory problem that was recently subject to a recall (also affected Toshiba). The floppy drive issue on the Toshiba laptops involved more than just Toshiba -- a few other laptops had similar issues (including Compaq).
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Now, you just made me think of something. I wonder what the required size for one of these is. That is, I wonder if you could make a AA form-factor one that spit out 1.5v. That might shake things up a tad.
funny munging
September 2005 - Apple responds to Toshiba's new fuel-cell powered mp3 player with their own solution - psychically powered iPods. Steve Jobs remarks "Being the innovators we are, we've come up with a new player that is powered by our creativity. Well if it doesn't work, there's always our failsafe: iPods powered by my own ego."
It would bring new meaning to the What's that smell? game.
Great family fun.
This slashdot-related signature is a stub. You can help kihjin by expanding it.
Any thoughts as to whether brands will have their own proprietary cells (i.e. printer cartridges), negating the cost savings gained?
I mean, I pay $600/mth for 60c worth of toner.
*envisages "methalated spirits" refill kits*
Or is that a fuel cell prototype methanol powered MP3 Player in your pocket??.
This is nothing
Wait for the 6 ghz 2 tb ram methane powered laptop.
Then ill be talking.
Methinks methanol is even cheaper and even more ecological.
Read about full cells here.
Well, yes, but not apparently today.
Ian Ameline
They have to keep the charade going. Fuel Cells were the "switch" in the "bait & switch" con Automakers played to get out of California's Zero Emission Vehicle mandate. The California Air Resource Board wanted automakers to sell Batery Electric Vehicles (BEV). GM was going all-out to meet the mandate, but then GM's visionary engineers got kicked out, and then they spent some $600 million lobbying against ZEV.
"We can't do BEV 'cause the batteries aren't good enough and people won't want a car that they can't instant-refill. But Hydrogen! Hydrogen is just like gasoline, except it's clean! Never mind that there's no efficient or economical way to get hydrogen, advances in 30 or 40 years will make it possible!"
Of course, now that ZEV is DeaD, battery technology has advanced to the point where an "instant" re-charge is possible...
See Perspectives on Fuel Cell and Battery Electric Vehicles, and this mailing list post on GM's coming demise ("good riddance").
CARB's Fuel Cell Detour on the Road to Zero Emission Vehicles
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Imagine the possibilities, you're walking down the street listening to your iPod, when alas, the low battery warning indicator flashes menacingly at you! Is this the end of your mobile musical enjoyment!?!? Fear not because after a quick momentary glance around you spy that most commonly found and abundant source of energy, a dead cat! Simply deposit said energy source into the easily carried 'Kitty Incineratorizor Backpack'(c) and enjoy whole minutes of continued playback!
Now in the immortal words of Homer Simpson...
OOoooo! Look at me Marge! I'm making people happy! I'm the magical man from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane!
Oh by the way, I was being sarcastic
[slams door]
if they were talking about a laptop/table PC power source then this might be interesting. But an MP3 player ?
:)
What on earth is the point of a portable MP3 player, camera, or other such device, that can;t take standard batteries (usually AA or AAA) ?
By using standard batteries it means that you can use rechargeables when you can and failing that (or for when you're in a remote area with no charging facilities) you can bung in some standard batteries.
All these iPod/Zen type MP3 players with their propeitary rechargeable batteries/fuel cells are just silly gimmicks. Very , very silly.
I don't care how featureful they are if you're in the middle of nowhere and the power runs out they're useless. When a device takes standard batteries you can always carry sufficient spares.
Proprietary power sources are about as good as propietary operating systems.
Meh. Roll on efficient solar power
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
The stuff is still poisonous and flammable.
The rat oral LD50s are about the same, but methanol will easily blind you at non-fatal levels, is much more volatile (leading to increased inhalation of vapors), and if I'm not mistaken is much more easily absorbed through the skin.
IPA is not poisonous, at least in the sense methanol is, since the body can't oxidize it past acetone, and its that's much nicer than formaldehyde and formic acid.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.