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The New Face Lift
RiotXIX writes to tell us that US surgeons plan on moving forward with their newest experimental medical practice, a face transplant. Doctors have already succeeded in making this practice a reality with cadavers donated for medical research and will soon begin interviewing a shortlist of patients to determine who, if anyone, will be first up for this procedure. From the article: 'The chance it will work is around 50% and experts have expressed safety and ethical concerns about the procedure. The recipient would have to take powerful anti-rejection drugs for life, which carry considerable long-term health risks, says the Royal College of Surgeons of England, which formed a working party to look at the issue earlier this year.'
Face/Off was about the worst movie ever. What makes people think the reality will be any better?
I can see it now...
I want Cowboy Neal's face, there's room to grow into it.
Trolling is a art,
I saw a movie about this once where one guy takes his face/off and changes it with another guy who also takes his face/off. Anyway, they end up chasing each other around for a while and eventually face/off to fight.
I think it was called "Two Guys that Traded Faces".
if Brad Pitt is a donor? I could really use the sex.
WHAT THE HELL? Then I thought "oh, okay, it's april fools." Then I remembered that no, it wasn't, and it was just National Talk-Like-A-Pirate-Day. I'd be a little weirded out if someone started walking around with my dead wife's face. But that's just me.
...science useful for the slashdot masses.
What? You know you guys are ugly as sin, admit it!
(hey it's a joke!)
The summary doesn't make this clear, but this procedure is intended only for severely disfigured people due to burn scars and such.
The possible side effects are pretty scary, though. My favorite quote is from the CNN Article:
And I used to think that anal leakage was a scary side effect, that's nothing comparing to a soughing face! Thank god I'm not in a position for now where I have to make a decision like that, but it sure is a high price to pay for looking "normal" again.
Michael Jackson had this done years ago.
I have the feeling that someone that has had a large part of their face burned off in a bad fire isn't going to be too worried about having to take drugs for the rest of their lives. Ethical? Ask the people who need this kind of surgery if THEY think it's ethical.
That sounds a bit cruel, maybe they just need to drink a lot instead.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
thats what i was left wondering too. if they're interviewing men and women to be faced, i would assume an endless supply of faces coming from somewhere?
How does this go with ID-Theft? Yup.. that's me.. see I look like me in this ID.... eeek!
When will Michael Jackson sign up for this? And what will he look like next?
[Insert pithy quote here]
I think that it would be more responsible to first try this procedure on animals, like monkeys or pigs. For instance, maybe they could transplant a pig's face to a monkey. They might even market these to insane rich people as "exotic pets."
Another idea I had that would have a similar market is cosmetic surgery for dogs.
Update: Just on a whim I googled "cosmetic surgery for dogs" and found this. I'm gonna go throw up now.
Arrrrr!
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
I suspect this procedure would be great for people who have had extreme burns to their face.
One thing to note are the anti-rejection drugs. My uncle whose kidneys both failed, had to get one from my father in the early 90's (91 i think) and had to take anti-rejection drugs. Well, the drugs eventually gave him colon cancer (approx. 10 years of heavy use) and passed away 2 years ago. But, without the kidney transplant he would have never made it past 1992.
It will be a trade off for these people.. potential to live a long life disfigured or a shorted life bearing a new face. Tough call?
MrJynx
. . . So can I take those and get laid every time I hit on a girl?
i don't care
Dr Siemionow told Associated Press: "You want to choose patients who are really disfigured, not someone who has a little scar."
I nominate this guy.
"Why would I want to look like a corpse?"
Keith Richards seems OK with it.
It is probably difficult to comprehend the impact major facial disfigurement can have on a person.
...why biometrics are being woven into the protective blanket that is the passport.
I am NaN
Doctors have already succeeded in making this practice a reality with cadavers
Let me get this straight. Doctors have "succeeded" in attaching one dead guys face to another dead guys skull. No problems with rejection, I take it. And the recipient hardly looked any worse than before the transplant, I mean, considering the bastards were dead, I'm guessing the failure rate was not very low.
Anybody want a peanut?
A really Brave New World.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Is already a BIG problem.. China sells the organs of condemmed prisoners - a LOT of innocent people I am sure suffer this.. It could happen here as well if jobs keep disappearing.. If anyone tells you otherwise, they don't know much about power and the powerless.. and how frequently the powerless lose anything of value they have to the rich and powerful..
It puts the lotion on its skin...
Shades of Grayden
The recipient would have to take powerful anti-rejection drugs
As far as rejection goes, I've heard there have been a good progress with transplanting pig's organs instead, so why don't we... Oops, never mind
bad joke, bad joke
"You mortals are so obtuse." -Q
Here's a more cost-effective plan:
1. Save $50,000 and deal with your ugly self.
2. Give her the anti-rejection drugs.
Wired quotes a release-form the recipient must sign:
Your face will be removed and replaced with one donated from a cadaver, matched for tissue type, age, sex and skin color. Surgery should last 8 to 10 hours; the hospital stay, 10 to 14 days. Complications could include infections that turn your new face black and require a second transplant or reconstruction with skin grafts. Drugs to prevent rejection will be needed lifelong, and they raise the risk of kidney damage and cancer. After the transplant you might feel remorse, disappointment, or grief or guilt toward the donor. The clinic will try to shield your identity, but the press likely will discover it.
No free lunch...
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
Transplanting organs and even external body parts has been an ongoing practice for quite some time. Clearly, they are making small improvements as time goes by and a variety of details have been added as well. But I have to hope there isn't too much research being done into this.
... it goes without saying. And I also recognize the fundamental expansion of knowledge of human anatomy and how it works is also a worthy benefit of the activities discussed in face transplant technologies.)
In my mind (which is a weird place to be at times) I think the future of medical technology is ultimately in regeneration of damaged or missing tissue. In previous medical articles mentioned here, stem cell research has already enabled paralyzed people to walk again and other improvements are just around the corner I'm sure. In addition to that, the research where genetic manipulation of rats have resulted in entire body parts regenerating after having them removed.
Ultimately, this is advanced forms of healing which is where almost everything in the way of research should be directed, in my opinion, since healing is what the medical practice is all about.
(And yes, I recognize the need for disease and cancer research as well
And on an asside, replacing a face will not make one person look like another. For that, you'd have to manipulate the bones under the skin and muscle to really make modifications that make a difference.
I did read the article, and think it would be woderful to retore someone's face who had been in an accident or had some other problem that ruined the way they looked.
But do you actually want me to believe this won't be used by people out there to look the way they want? Please... People would pay tons of money for this who haven't been hurt in an accident or anything like that. Sad but true.
TLC anounces a bold new reality TV show...Trading Faces.
Skin grafting already exists for these types of cases, which takes skin from one part of your body and puts it on another. And if the skin comes from you, it shouldn't be rejected. If most plastic surgeons can reconstruct most faces I don't see why face transplantation is all that interesting for anyone who needs it for burns.
Now, if you are burned over a significant portion of your body I could understand that, but if you have 3 degree burns over more than 50% of your body you have a lot of more things to worry about before you get that face transplant.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
I understand that disfigurement, even cosmetic, can be debilitating physically and psychologically.
While loss of facial skin is disfiguring, it can be treated by transplants from the patient's own body, which is much safer.
I think the "face transplant" they are referring to involves also replacing ligature and muscles, which would be of great use -- imagine not being able to chew, create facial expressions, or speak. I am curious, however, if the costs and risks are truly worth it. I think there are plenty of ways that this research money could have been used that would be of greater benefit.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
This is done by Dr. Robert White. He has done a lot of experiments where he transplanted animal heads, and they stayed alive for a while (hours).
I know this story sounds like cosmetic surgery, but it isn't. (Yes, I would like a more handsome face)It is for people who need it medically, at least for now...
Dr White's son, Mr. White was my Eighth grade Latin teacher at Shaker Heights Middle School, I kid you not.
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
I guess this is a good time to test the old saying:
Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes right to the core.
Still, you have to be pretty desperate to say "sure, give me some random dead person's face, mine sucks".
I read the internet for the articles.
Why would I want to look like a corpse?
You never know when Marilyn Manson will tour again.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
I remember a news story about a girl born without a face.
I don't remember the medical name of the condition, where basically the bone structure of the face fails to develop during pregnancy, but such a procedure might help such people after the underlying bone grafts are complete.
I guess the word "faceplant" no longer solely refers to me tripping while going upstairs/while going downstairs/walking outside/walking around in my dorm room.
that was trasding places i believe and no they did not do this, what they did was take a rich guy and turn him poor and desperate, and a poor and desperate black guy and turn him into a rich guy...
~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
The most disgusting seen was when the bad guy was hanging out with no face, just this pizza-with-the-cheese-pulled-off kind of look. And imagine, if the surgery goes wrong that could be you! I'd stick with the scars. An ugly face is better than no face.
From the reporting by the BBC, this is appearing as a cosmetic procedure rather than life saving.
As one seriously disfigured guy said: "Why should I change my appearance to better meet your desire to see a perfect face?"
Who exactly is this procedure for, eh?
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
I think some of these guys should take some time off and watch some movies, then they would realize that building Skynet, virtual reality, and face transplants almost never end happily, just usually in bad sequels!
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
yes yes yes it was faceoff and it was john travolta and nicholas cage...but also remember we seem phaser weapons and we dont really have them yet...
~~"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~~Dennis Miller
Actually I think that's going to be a new show on TLC.
I worked (very briefly) with a guy that had had "reconstruction" over 100% of his face from 3rd degree burns. In his case:
successful "reconstruction" = "no longer oozing."
He had no lips, and only kind of had eyelids, he had to constantly roll his eyes to keep them lubed. No nose, just one deformed hole in the front of his head. He was, in a word, hideous. Not his fault. He was a good guy. But his quality of life was in the toilet. This was in the late 1990s, so maybe they're a little better now, but if they can do a complete replacement - more power to them. I would be happy to be a donor once I'm gone. They already get my liver, heart, and eyes. If someone can use this ugly mug, they're welcome to it.
Only if it fails critically.
Ignore this signature. By order.
The chance it will work is around 50% and experts have expressed safety and ethical concerns about the procedure. The recipient would have to take powerful anti-rejection drugs for life, which carry considerable long-term health risks...
So what's the downside?
See my Home Theater
But seriously, people should just live with what they've got. We all eventually get old; we all eventually pass on. Wear what you've got with a smile and you'll do just fine.
... anything that requires "face time" with a customer will automatically put you at a disadvantage with your attractive coworkers.
Yes, those are nice platitudes but being physically repulsive in our "style vs substance" economy can be limiting to one's career. Sales, management, consulting
... and even if you are providing a 100% greater service than anyone else on-site, that same client will still the snide comments about your appearance behind your back and then go invite your coworkers for happy hour while you toil away to make a deadline.
(speaking from experience of course)
... welcome our new face swapping overlords.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
There is a regular who comes into a place where I work every day who likes to chat. He apparently was one of the first people within Canada to get a heart transplant. He told me that one of the drugs that they gave him to weaken his system (anti rejection) was based on the dye that Coke uses in their soft drinks..
I'm not to sure how accurate this is.. Although he seems very informative and accurate on everything else we talk about.. I'd like to know if anybody else has some knowledge on this.
Losers whine about their best, Winners go home to fuck the prom queen
From where else could we be given arbitrary unfounded reasons for setting back progress for decades to come?
Bioethics: Making mongers of monkeys since Roe v. Wade.®
Wasn't there a horror movie about a guy that receives a convicted serial killers have after he's executed by the death penalty or something? If my memory serves me correctly, this guys hand starts to take over this receivers soul and he then starts killing people on a mad rampage. Just imagine what would happen if the same thing happens to the face!?!?!
Scary!Generation Trance: What generation are you?
I'll bet you one dollar that the transplant doesn't work.
I once knew this hottie who was actually turned on by this guy who's face was disfigured by 3rd degree burns and the numerous skin grafs associated.
BTW, he was burned while commiting arson. Go figure....
...It was called 'Trading Faces'. It starred Eddie Murphy, Right?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Great: now we can reject our own faces, rather than letting other people do it.
Blank until
for the US Marshall Service Witness Protection Program. As this medical procedure becomes more commonplace, it will not be only paper identity, occupation, and location of witnesses in Federal criminal cases that are changed.
In spite of the inherent risks involved in any surgery, as well as the need to take anti-rejection drugs for the remainder of the patient's life, I can see that this will become popular even as elective surgery. I can also see that face transplants will become an abused procedure, for concealing the identity of terrorists, mobsters, mass murderers, embezzlers, and politicians/dictators that have fallen out of favor.
[Since we're talking about ``a transplanted face being rejected and sloughing away''] ...Michael Jackson!
Soon his nose will be on his bellybutton.
I would love to have you testify to that at a hearing with my insurance company when I ask for the benefits of long-term disability and bill coverage to have reconstructive surgery. Or with the Labor board when I tried to ask for protection from (and compensation for past) workplace harassment. Sadly, people who are physically disfigured by tragic injury just don't seem to be covered by the same laws that shield other minorities from derision and harassment. The only prayer is to be disfigured in a situation where an insurance policy can be held liable for a claim. Which, most often, isn't the case.
People who are physically disfigured suffer from the "fat and ugly" syndrome. People who are not physically disfigured automatically put them on a lesser social level. It's the ages old fight of who's on top. No "normal" person ever wants to cede even a minute amount of power in a relationship with someone who's physically disfigured.
Sometimes life just irks me. Seeing articles like this, where some Quack Doctor is trying a get-famous-quick scheme by exploiting people who have suffered tragic injuries, makes me sick.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Great! Just what we need, another reason for even more spam. I guess if enlarging your p***s wasn't enough, now you can transplant someone's face as well.
Homer no function beer well without.
Hey, if they combined this face 'lift' with the Space 'Elevator' you could really walk around with your head in the clouds.
Thank you, I'm here 'til Friday.
AT&ROFLMAO
A few years ago it was declared that problems with rejection of skin had been overcome. That led to a few people receiving hand grafts. These were actually forearm and hand.
The recipients had problems with these. One went so far (and he had difficulties in persuading surgeons to do this) as to have it removed. Others were happier.
One of the obvious problems on the footage I saw was the damage to the skin of the grafted limbs. It was in a state of semi-rejection, puffy and scaly. Not very good. For a face replacement, this is obviously going to be a major issue. The tissue is always under attack by the immune system, the drugs only suppress this. Over time, the skin and muscle will degrade due to this.
Rejection is always a problem with transplants. The drugs have considerable side effects and are really only used because the alternate is death or severe disability to the patient. The transplant route is not taken lightly. You will note that it is used only where the alternates are worse.
Given the above, I would personally question why they want to do this. A cosmetic issue is not life threatening. It might lead to a poor quality of life for the patient, but it is not going to kill them. The transplant itself may (through drug effects) lead to a much worse one.
See http://www.handtransplant.com/ for information on the procedure and risks.
I actually worked with a plastic surgeon who had gone thru some of the training for this procedure. Let me state that this is not for the routine type of face life. This is for people who have had significant burns (>40-50%), massive injury/scaring, or disease (infection/treated tumor). This surgery only!! transplants the overlying skin and main sensory nerves and blood supply to the skin. People will look very different than the donor, due to the underlying bone and muscular structure, and will look closer to themselves. Yes they will need anti-rejection drugs, just like people who have had kidney transplants, but this is a small price to pay for people to rejoin society - as many of the people who have the qualifying conditions, feel shunned/ self conscious. This is an extrememly reasonable thing to do to improve a persons quality of life.
..........FULL STOP.
On Awful Plastic Surgery from now on? Between Michael and Liza, Lindsay and all them other teeny-boppers (not to mention Brittany... hell, she'll go thru a face a week!) we may never again know who to blame for the awful performance we just put up with.
Maybe they'll just trade faces back and forth, like some cheesy Hollywood masque. That's really screw up the critics!
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ~~ Hunter S. Thompson
ominous masks and hiding in the shadows? It's worked for all these years... no need to change now.
Kinda fun film.
Man, you really need that seminar!
Long term they might combine it with cloning and avoid the drugs.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I don't think there's any real danger of that, at least until someone works out how to stop rejection of transplanted organs and body parts without using drugs. Also, it's not going to make the recipient look exactly like the donor - to do that, as has been noted, you'd need to replace the bone and muscles as well, not just the skin. This is a serious medical procedure, not something that is going to be handed out to anyone who asks for one.
Well, okay, maybe in Paraguay.
Apparently, I am the only person here that watches the Discovery Health channel. Some time ago, DH ran a documentary on face transplants that profiled an event 10 years ago when an Indian girl had her face and scalp amputated by a grass cutting machine. The doctors in India were able to reattach her face. The success gave other doctors the incentive to begin researching the possibility of transplanting faces for the severely disfigured.
I offer no judgements about whether the procedure is a good idea or not. I just know that I wouldn't deny a well informed individual the right to the surgery.
Finally something that isn't crap on TLC. Oh wait...
Who exactly is this procedure for, eh?
Gross facial disfigurement generally makes people unemployable in customer-facing jobs and even in some non-customer-facing jobs. Work is better than welfare, right?
If scientists can crack the cell differentiation mystery, they may be able to take some of your DNA from any cell and grow whatever organ you need.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Who would trade burn scars for 50% chance of death, likelyhood of chronic pain, likelyhood of further disfigurement, and no immune system for the rest of their lives?
Actually an impaired immune system - the drugs just suppress part of it. Still no fun though. (That part goes after cancers and virus-infested-but-functioning tissues, too, among other things...)
What I don't see is why they're replacing the whole skin. Why not take off the scar tissue and replace it with a collagen mask seeded with skin cells? This is done with many burn victims (along with at least one person who lost her whole dermis due to a rare drug reaction).
Perhaps it's because the damage is too deep and they need to replace the nerves, blood vessels, muscles, and other plumbing?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
50% chance you'll look like Dr. Phibes...!
I think that it would be more responsible to first try this procedure on animals, like monkeys or pigs. For instance, maybe they could transplant a pig's face to a monkey.
Read The Fine Article.
They already did: Transplanted chunks of brown rats' faces onto white rats, giving them an appearance described as somewhat like a negative of a photograph of a raccoon.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Why do this when regeneration is so close. Their already able to do regeneration in mice and transfering the ability to other mice.
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
Uggg.. Read the article. That will not happen. The person will still have the same structure of the face so he will still resemble the person. Worst case scenario is a freakish mix of the dead person andhimself. Plus this scenario is garunteed to shorten your life span because you are taking some freakishly powerful drugs. It would be the same scenario for a kidney transplant.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
Think about it, to amass the wealth necassary to get the surgery -- requires a different set of skills/abilities, which perhaps are more suited/better genetic materials to pass on down the line than those that provide 'natural beauty'...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
So now people might put "no" in an organ donor card just so no one steals their face and cause ID confusion to loved ones you left behind? What if they want to donate the other organs??
Plus, celebrities might auction their faces on ebay - and some geeky fans will buy, no doubt. Yuuuuuuck!
Microsoft is pure dog-ma. FreeBSD is pure cat-ma.
Now movies will contain the disclaimer;
"Any resemblance to living persons is purely coincidental. Resemblance to dead persons is possibly the result of a surgical proceedure."
Breast augmentation does not require a donor cadaver. I imagine that would restrict this surgery to "therapeutic" uses - i.e. where the patient really *needed* a facial graft due to severe disfigurement. I doubt that donor tissue is permitted to be used for elective cosmetic procedures.
Freedom: "I won't!"
No, the problem is the people who think they have a right to a perfect life - and that someone else should bear the costs.
That's a hell of a thing to say to someone who has burns on 40% of his body. He doesn't want a "perfect life", he wants to not live in pain and discomfort. Who are you to criticize him for that, as you enjoy a life free of these problems? Try compassion some time, instead of clutching your wallet, fearful you might ever have to help somebody else.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Glad someone caught the movie reference. Good on you!
Because you can't get federal grants for "stem-cell" (progenitor cell) related research but you can get federal money for research in transplant and grafting techniques, no matter how ill-suited the application is. To make it worse, since the Federal Gov't has this annoying habit of soaking up all available monies, people can't "vote with their wallet" and fund these endeavors on their own because the Federal Gov't has already sucked them dry. Without Federal backing or support, the Wall Street zombies won't dare invest any more heavily in tissue engineering research than they do in pacifiers.
It's not that it can't be done, it's that all the know-it-alls in Washington DC have decided to deep-six that entire industry.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
I hope that the faces aren't all from Chinese political prisoners killed during torture. Unlike internal organs, which you don't see, a new face is pretty darn obvious. Would the recipient have a permanent grimace or terrified expression like a Halloween mask? Young-looking skin, though.
Again, it's still a vast improvement over a disfigured face. At the same time it's very probable that, using this same line of logic, people will be able to sense "something wrong" with a grafted cadaver face. Hollywood can do marvels with skin surfaces. A little bit of properly applied makeup and even a week old artificial skin can be made to look just as good as any actor in a movie.
State of the art is completely adequate to leave cadaver grafting in the stone age. The only thing standing in the way are federal limitations on research which involve using stem cells and the relatively cheap price of a cadaver's face.
Hahahaha! Have you ever listened to the sales pitch that these doctors give? How about political campaigns? Ethics and merits are so completely separated from jail it's sad that you would even try this argument.
Only true in older technologies, and only true 50% of the time. Most allografts are fashioned from foreskins of circumcized males. Others were fashioned from, primarily, motorcycle accident victims. In newer technology, though, allografts are not even necessary. As I stated originally, we now have the technology to construct a fibrin/collagen matrix into which existing endogenous cells will be attracted to grow into. Once the endogenous cells have grown into the matrix they will continue to remodel it. Estimations are that it would take the natural body about 4 years to completely remodel a 4x4" section of flesh. Sure beats the hell out of the immunosuppressant (with side-effects) therapy for the rest of life.
You know what? As a troll, you're succeeding. I feel harassed by an imbecile and my ire is up. Piss off.
Technology has advanced sufficiently to make cadaver grafting obsolete and barbaric. Existing technologies include "farming" endogenous cells into neutral fibrin/collagen matrices.
Take your AC condescending BS elsewhere. You're 8 years behind the times--and I'm not even bleeding edge on this topic.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Tell you what, dickhead. I anticipated your trollish response, so I've prepared a few little pictures of a bonified burn victim who has an education from a premier private engineering school from which some of the original inventors of the most successful heart valve and also premier members in the field of tissue engineering currently teach or are former faculty members. Most of whom I studied under.
So you can continue to argue on at your leisure. I'll let you know up front that, due to my ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (which you have none of) and my education (which you're lacking), I'll watch this thread for weeks and you can kiss my ass.
Barbaric cadaver grafting for facial reconstruction should be boycotted in favor of more delicate and acceptable techniques.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
See? You're such a hopeless 'tard that you've gotten me agitated to the point where I make mistakes on the links.
Pictures available at:
Here
Here
Here
You fsckin' trolling twit.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
This could be his big break. Now if only they could invent women who look like 7 year old boys he could restart his career and be normal.
Most chimeras probably die at an early stage, from that very immune problem. Those who get through are just "lucky."