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Linux Instant Messengers
mrAshley writes "This article talks specifically about the antiquated state of the even the best Linux instant messenging software, and generally about the need for software developers to be mindful of younger people, as their social attitudes towards software are going to be much more influential in than any moral or financial consideration.
Simply put - People are communal. Don't make a person who wants to use Linux have to leave behind a method or style of communication."
I think gaim does a pretty good job, and I've actually converted lots of friends to gaim with no negative after taste. And most love the tabbed interface for multiple conversations in one window. It's nice also to have multiple protocols all available in the one application. My parents now chat with multiple people, in multiple environments, and they're not even aware that's happening. No more splaining that they have to start the yahoo messenger if they want to talk with Uncle Duane.
There's also the huge value add of no advertising.
But, I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages. And the last couple of new releases of gaim won't even install with "Force".
So, for my money, gaim comes close. Depending on the user, I've found many are okay using gaim.
As for the "state of the union" in Windows, with the recently announced merger of the Yahoo and MSN protocols (as in, freely communicate with each other), it does appear Microsoft is making its move to get closer to their tipping point to dominate the messaging market. They have some interesting features, none that I can't live without, but probably a good draw for the "hip" young crowd. I find most of the described features annoying, but then, I come from the old BSD/Sun "talk" days. Heck I guess I even come from the old Unix "write" days (get out your history books).
Let Microsoft add the fluff. But, a cautionary note, if history serves, what Microsoft is doing has the petina of old tricks. Should they manage to climb to the top and snuff out other IM services the way they've snuffed out other competitors I predict they once again will begin charging for what once was free. Or at least start charging for features that used to be free but have become addictive to their target demographic. (Hey, little girl/boy, want some streaming video with your chat?)
Gaim and kopete both have all the functionality of the major IM clients. Gaim is available for both windows and linux and also seems to get protocol fixes and other bugs patched much more quickly than the commercial equivalent, trillian...
-*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
about the need for software developers to be mindful of younger people, as their social attitudes towards software are going to be much more influential in than any moral or financial consideration.
Perhaps some of the younger people need to become software developers. This is not meant to be a RTFM comment, just an observation that the OSS community might need to step up its PR with the younger generation. It was nice to see many high school age kids at the BLUG meeting last night, but I think we could do more to encourage them.
Younger people ?
As far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of people out there using instant messengers... my friends, my mom, my dad, people from work, people at college... it's not just teens using instant messengers, it's a huge community using them.
And yes, I personally miss features like displaying which song you're currently listening too, and heck, since the latest MSN version I can't even see their "mood" anymore...
And yer yer, I could just ask them, I know... it's just that my friends seem to have a hell lot of fun using MSN, and I'm just happy I can finally show people my MSN icon... I seem to be missing a lot of the fun :)
- Leon Mergen
http://www.solatis.com
Summary:
Gosh, I really hate the Windows Messenger 7 UI. It's so ugly. I'm going to say something unsubstantiated about vendor lock-in here and never mention it again, because I want to sound hip to teh Lunix.
Everybody in the entire continent of Europe uses MSN Messenger and most of us just call it -- wait for it -- MSN!
Did you know that Gaim sucks? Look at Firefox and Openoffice.org! Those are much cooler than Gaim. Did you know that ten year olds won't use Gaim because it isn't flashy enough? Lol gaim is so ugly!
Kthx.
--Stéphane Rieppi lives in Belgium and is majoring in sociology at the University of Liège. He has a strong passion for Free and Open Source computing and is working on a thesis about Free and Open Source software seen from a sociological viewpoint.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
No thanks. I'll take the simplicity of gaim to accomplish the given task; relaying a text 'conversation'.
If you go and bloat it up, for the love of God, be sure to leave an options dialog to disable all the crud so I don't have to be beaten with it.
An no, I'm not just talking about how pretty Trillian is compared to GAIM, either. Socialbility as a value has a lot to do with smart UI design fetures, too. Smart preferences, drag and drop, ease of use, and integration of features with other web activity would all help IM's that want to "make it". And yes, GAIM needs a new name. Or spelling.
Looks good for your age..
...is why we use GAIM to communicate in our company. (Well, except the garbage file transfers.) We have a Jabber server that supports encryption and use that for all of our in-house messaging. This is important as we are a geographically distributed team, we need a secure, reliable chat mechanism to collaborate quickly and easily on code. We don't want or need all the garbage that comes with of IMs, and the fact we can link to other services in GAIM makes it our one stop shopping solution for IMs when we *do* need to talk to someone with a more mainsteam IM.
:) :( smiles. But for a corporate solution, GAIM + Jabber makes a lot of sense and I would hate to see it become the playground that MSN has become.
Of course, we are professional developers who don't need to send flash animations, pictures or even more than the basic
Sig under construction since 1998.
And file transfers with non-gaim clients ?
The Raven
I thought "Funny. I haven't seen much inflammatory bullshit recently. I wonder if OSnews have got back into gear again."
Then I noticed the link. Brilliant.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Gaim is just trying to follow the look of the rest of the linux desktop experience.. antiquated and generally pretty ugly!
At least gaim isn't as fugly and bloaty looking as the default trillian install. The best, cleanest, most feature-capable IM client I've used is Adium for OS X (which I believe uses gaim's IM library). It gets out of my way, isn't all flashy and has all the things I want (on the fly spell checking, history in new windows, etc).
(No, this isn't one of those "DUDE! JUST USE OS X! LINUX SUX0RS", I'm just stating my opinion.)
No you didn't read the article, they have heard of gaim:
Can you connect to the MSN Messenger network using Free operating systems? Sure you can. There is Gaim, there is Kopete. Are they attractive? No, they aren't. Their interfaces are terrible. Moreover, all you can do with them is write basic IMs. Bye bye overbloated and stupid nudge and Flash sequences. Just the text ma'am. Display picture? Well, it sort of works, but that's all. File transfers? I can swear that you're a lucky guy (girl) when it works. Usually it doesn't, resulting in embarrassing 'Sorry mate, I'm using Linux, you know and, well, could you mail me this picture instead?'.
yes, I'm a command line nut, but my favorite is actualy bitlbee, available at http://www.bitlbee.org/. It's an irc gateway for AOL, ICQ, jabber etc.
Don't save Windows XP! http://www.petitiononline.com/jjw1xp/petition.html
Sounds like whoever packages gaim for your distro is a moron. gaim's developers can't be faulted because someone else is screwing up the packaging.
I've never had any problem with upgrades or installations of gaim on any of my systems (Gentoo, and I used to use RedHat until 7.3), including the Windows port.
gaim blows away AOL's standard AIM client in terms of UI cleanliness, ease of use, and features. How the hell is it that the AIM protocol supports aliases for screen names (i.e. foobar43289342 displays as "John Smith") but only third-party clients actually support it? (i.e. aliases ARE saved on AOL's server with your buddy lists, but AOL's AIM client is about the only client out there that DOESN'T show them).
gaim also lets me strip out all color/fontsize changes from people's IMs. Some people have REALLY annoying color defaults.
gaim starts far faster than AIM.
There is one thing (and only one) that AIM handles better than gAIM, and that's when people use nonstandard character sets in away messages. gAIM bitches about a buggy client, AIM will display the away message, even though some characters will look like junk. I only see these away messages once or twice a month though.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
... this really comes to make stronger my previous post on Novell's linux usuability tests.
;) ).
This about the point 3 (How can some computer-noob user Engage in a multimedia chat with some friend (micrphone+webcam+text). There is really no application in the open source windows that has all the functionality that MSN Messenger has this is, to be able to talk, chat and see video when having a conference with other people.
Some of the answers I got from my previous post stated a set of programs that you could use to get a (more or less useful) similar result. But, the end user will not want that. For them, MSN messenger allows them to do all that with some clicks, while on Linux it would require some RPMing and running 3 applications.
The other more important thing (and I know... it is not the OSS fault) is the compatibility. See, ALL my contacts use MSN Messenger (all in Mexico), none of them use AOL or ICQ or whatever OSS, so I have to use a MSN compatible client.
Now, everything could be nice with GAIM, except that it does not support video and audio, and I while I am in UK I love staying in contact with people over there, and why not spending a sunday night chating with friends and having a video conference with my girlfriend (yes, I have a girlfriend, no, not *those* kind of video conference
But, all in all, someone posted on the Y!MSN merging that there are like 3 propietary messenger programs, I dont know if AOL msnger supports audio and video or the others, but I do know it is something that my vanilla Linux distro is lacking of. [now go ahead and blame Microsoft for not releasing a version of MSN Messenger for Linux... (I already do it!!!)]
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
So, young people are concerned with Gaim having a fugly UI. Well, what, precicely, is stopping people from writing an attractive looking skin for Gaim? And if it doesn't support skinning, why hasn't anyone written skinning support into Gaim yet?
Hell, if I knew C, and any particular artistic talent, I'd do it.Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
When I was in high school, while discussing music with a foreign exchange student, she announced: "In France, we call Bruce Springsteen 'The Boss'".
I am not a crackpot.
As mature as Trillian is, it still is unable to support ALL of those annoying messenger specific features, but it's as close as you're gonna get in regards to "meeting in the middle" for all IM networks. The skins are very sexy, webcam/filetransfers seem to work without issue. Overall it's gorgeous when you throw away the default skin.
Why not go cross platform? Trillian would be great if one was able to us it on Linux, OSX, etc. natively (I've used it under WINE without issue but that's more work than any regular user would want to go through.) The fact of the matter is that a majority of IM junkies are still not willing to throw away AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, etc. for Trillian on Windows, but it'd surely be a very nice solution for a Linux user. Of course most of their customers would still be under Windows, and one might argue the development costs to go cross platform would not justify the potential customers on these platforms, but seriously a nice IM solution is _so_ needed under Linux. I think the need is greater than they might realize.
"True refinement seeks simplicity."
Score one big one for Gaim! That's more than a "don't need", that's a "don't want".
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
...will also get you onto Google Talk, which is basically Google's Jabber server.
.MAC chat and not Jabber. Yes, the Tiger version adds Jabber functionality, but my clamshell iBook can't run Tiger. (The cutoff is native Firewire which the first version of the iBook didn't have.)
It won't do voice chat, but at least you can do IM chat. This is better than the iChat which comes with Mac OS X Panther, which can only do either AIM or
Gaim's good on both Linux *and* Windows. The Windows port is solid. And it's Free Software.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
File transfers usually don't work on Windows either. Generally it's because both sides are behind NAT. It has nothing to do with "Advanced clients". When file transfers do work, the only files you recieve that you can't open on Linux are viruses.
The only Windows IM client that is worth consideration is Trillian Pro. And other client either has no good features, or is loaded with ads, or both. The state of IM on Windows sucks just as much as everywhere else... Unless you're on a Mac, but that's another story.
After RTFA, I think the author is missing the point of instant messaging. Strangely enough, it's right there in the name:
Instant: adj.
1. Occurring at once; immediate:
Messaging: tr,
1. To send a message to.
It's not instant video chatting, instant flash advertisements, instant voice communications. They are messages. At this Gaim and Kopete work very well indeed. I don't even use the standard MSN, Yahoo, and AIM clients on my WinXP box. It's Gaim and it does everything at once. As far as aesthetics go, Gaim is about as lovely as anything else. Kopete looks as great as you can make KDE look (which is pretty damn good.) In fact, I occasionally turn on the color cycling plugin on Kopete and get lots of positive comments and folks wish they could do that with their clients (just move to Linux!).
The only spot where I think the author is possibly on-topic is file transfers. More often than not though, this is a function of network firewalls and port forwarding. If there was a mode where Gaim/Kopete could self discover an outside IP address and use UPnP port requests, then I'm sure it'd work phenomenally in our household.
I'm a mac user and I love Adium X and would love to see it get ported to Linux. It's such an easy program to customize, very nice interface, and absolutely free. Just seems like a great fit for Linux in my opinion.
Finance tutorials and more! Understandfinance
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaim
Features:
Plugins:
Gaim supports plugins for RSA and GPG encryption, as well as Off-the-record messaging.
See GAIM plugins: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/plugins.php/
More info about GAIM: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=GAIM
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
The author of the article is railing against the argument that there is no room for Form when trying to implement Function;
/. community would rather cutoff their noses, to spite their face, than use something that doesn't fit with their spiteful little crypto-socialist ethos, even though it is quite good.
He is essentially saying 'I am the same as any other Linux zealot, however I am magnanimous enough to recognise that I am not the youth of today, and that my needs, justifiable as they are, are not the same as Da Yoof.' Thus, the eye-candy in MSN, he suggests, is not to his tastes but 'they' like it and 'they' are the next generation of potential Linux users.
So comments defending GAIM are either missing the point of the author, or are seriously in denial. Some prat pitches in to say 'well GAIM is patched quicker than Trillian' and another prick says 'I'll take the simplicity of GAIM'. While I'm sure he and his other online contact are happy with spartan interfaces which, truly, have not evolved since 2000, I'm more than happy with MSN. Even though I can't see the source code. Even though everything goes through MSN's servers, centrally.
Here in the UK, it is MSN which is the dominant IM app in my world. I use it, and I quite get off on the fact that plenty of other, much more normal people use it, and that plenty in the
Not sure whom he's exhorting here... open-source developers? Microsoft? Linux is the OS by the people and for the people, so if the people don't add the features that he thinks they want to their apps, then maybe they don't want them as bad as he thinks.
:-)
But tagging along on MS's coattails isn't going to get us anywhere. What is needed is for Windows people to use Jabber; then we can really have interoperability and end the IM wars. And if it doesn't have enough features to make that compelling, then they need to be added. And the Jabber server used to be interoperable with other IM's (including MSN I think), not sure if it still is but that was a really good feature. Hopefully its interoperability includes file transfer. Voice IMO already has a couple of good implentations (asterisk for sure, and then there are skype and some others), and if people think that IM and voice belong together then the IM client could include a SIP client as well. Next they will be wanting video. CUCMe anybody? I remember it working already in 1994, perhaps earlier...why don't we leapfrog for once and get video well-integrated into IM as well?
As for me, I don't really "get" IM - don't like to be interrupted all the time. Email works just fine, thank you.
True hardcore Linux users just use talk/ntalk/ytalk, of course.
Screw all this fancy IM and IRC crap! talk forever!
$ talk
Usage: talk user [ttyname]
I think its ironic that this article made Slashdot at the particular time. Gaim's summer of code had projects ranging from Yahoo Whiteboard support, to better file transfers, to group editing of text files/images/music. Also support for audio VoIP. There is also a webcam plugin in the works for gaim as well [though I'm uncertain for which protocol(s) they are aiming at. It is for exactly these features that gaim hasn't released a new version in much longer than their normal development cycle. In perhaps a few weeks most of these complaints [as well as many other advantages like dbus and fixed perl interfaces] will be irrelevant.
I don't have any interest in using either video or voice chat. I always figured that's what phones and coffee shops were for ;) But since you seem to be making a little ad-hominum attack there I'd like to point out I'm using a windows box with trillian right now and also point out that the kopete faq website lists compatability with MSN video and voice chat as current features...
But as long as you are going to argue for one over the other, you have to understand that solutions that are OS agnostic will always be preferable in my book and my favorite feature about gaim is that it is OS agnostic and also hasn't/doesn't/won't display any inline advertising or pop-up windows...
-*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
File transfer. Secure (128bit encrypted) conversations. Inline image support. Stability (I've seen GAIM crash more in a day then I have seen real AIM crash in three years). Audio chat. Video chat. Need more?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
A friend in MSN showed me a blue furry creature that looks like a pokèmon, and it was waving "hi", smiling and everything. I instantly clicked on it, and added to my custom MSN smileys. Whenever I say "hi" to my female MSN friends using this custom smiley, they all say "awwww how cute! ^_^ where did you get that?" or something. (love hint: yes fellow slashdotters, girls like all that cute stuff)
This custom smiley is some kind of social phenomena. Custom emoticons begin appear computer, and the next day they're everywhere because they can be easily transferred between computers.
For years i've been waiting for F/OSS messengers (for Windows, i mean) to have this custom emoticon feature. And I'm still waiting...
god! have you seen the date on that article?!!?!
"Written by special contributor Stéphane Rieppi on 2005-01-15 04:36:21 UTC"
that isn't even funny! heh.. anyway, since january things have come a LOOOONGG way in the IM world. take a look at the CVS of aMSN if you'd like more info - it's got webcam, doodles, nudges and more (but there might be things i don't know about, i haven't been keeping track of it lately)
Am I the only one who understands where this article is going?
Linux is a wonderful, efficient, relatively secure operating system, but damned, the UI is fugly on almost every distro. Even the "perdy" distros have UI deficiencies.
Why does this matter? It works, it's functional, right?
Short Answer... Yes... Long Answer... No.
In the ideal Linux world, everyone has discard MS Windows, and they are strictly using open source software... There is no concern over quality of software, no concern over usability, and no concern over closed protocols, software, and formats.
That's not the case. Most of the world uses Windows, and that's just the way it is. Windows does offer something that Linux doesn't offer in that sense... a relatively consistent (*sigh*) user interface, a relatively attractive (*sigh*) visual style, and relatively easy-to-manage (*sigh*) suite of software.
Point is, how do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install a different visual style?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install new hardware (think something without pre-compiled Linux compatible drivers)?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to do most every day things?
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this comment, but I have used Windows, OS X, and Linux. Plain and simple Linux is not the easiest to learn from a new user standpoint.
Sure, I'll hear the argument that once you learn, you'll be fine. Explain that to the old persons in my family who don't want to learn. Explain that to the young persons in my family who don't understand why they should learn Linux.
I am not trying to say the Linux needs to copy every Windows / OS X feature or functionality, in fact I'm quite opposed to this. Linux has a powerful kernel that's being underutilized by a copycat interface.
Why do the creative minds of the Linux community insist on duplicating Windows. Linux != Windows. Create a new interface. Move into a different direction that what we know now. Here's a novel idea. Forge a new, easier, more efficient way to use a computer.
Of course, the underlying principle is still this... GAIM is not MSN. GAIM is merely trying to duplicate how classic MSN/AOL/Y! looked and felt. It's been done. Move on.
I'm not saying that GAIM needs to recreate the annoying Screen Shake or whatever it's called. I'm not saying GAIM needs to recreate MSN/AIM/Y!/ICQ/Google Talk/etc. Do something original with it. Give me a compelling reason to use it. Give me an application that's not bloated (*coTRILLIANugh*). Give me something more intuitive (*coADIUMugh*) but unique (*coDOESN'TEXISTugh*).
The Linux community as a whole is stuck in this antiquated mindset. Let's move on. It's time to change. Linux doesn't need to be just for elite, make it available and usable (keyword) to the masses.
But, what do I know?
Deja Vu
n. 1. The sensation that you've read this very article before.
Ok, I have used Trillian, MSM, YIM, AOL, ICQ AND GAIM (on BOTH platforms)... I have accounts in all FOUR of the "big IM" systems. So for me, it is simply a choice of Gaim or Trillian.
:) No hard feelings right? ;-) )
Trillian is good, not free (well the 'OK' version is), it allows all accounts to run through it... But, it doesn't come with an integrated spell checker for the "free" version, fine, pay for it right? No... It's pretty but still too "glamorous" as far as I care.
Personally, I can NOT STAND the advertisement BS that comes with MSM, YIM, AIM and ICQ. They SUCK as far as my opinion goes. In addition they don't have all the features that Gaim and Trillian come with.... (multiple accounts, spell checker, NO ADS, etc.)
So, GAIM ROCKS!!!! I use it at home on my linux systems and on my windows systems at work. In addition I have it installed on my USB key so that I don't have to be without IM anywhere I go. It stores all logs on the key and I have it working with both linux and windows off the key. How cool is that??? (also have Thunderbird and Firefox on it as well)
So, Gaim...
o Spell checker
o No Adds
o Simple yet POWEFUL interface that works with ALL FOUR of my accounts
Sure it doesn't have those "sissy", "GUI-Skins" and Advertisements that the author apparently likes, but as far as I am concerned... Simple, complete, powerful... GAIM (for windows AND linux) Top THAT bitch!!!
I am so tired of... "well linux doesn't have a pretty this or a fancy that..."
Then DON'T use it. Shut up and go back to your windows box or worse your Mac... (sorry mac fans, I'm in rant mode, I know plenty of fine Mac users.
... In my experience has usualy been what the people you want to talk to use. All the features in the world won't get you users unless the people you want to talk to are on the network. As I find mysef forced to use more and more networks (I started with AIM but now use IRC,YAHOO and now jabber) Gaim means I don't need 8 chatt clients on my desktop.
If it's dead, you killed it.
Gaim's tabbed interface IS great. There are many things about Gaim thats great, but it's interface is too much like AIM and there are a couple of annoyances such as: 1. You can't see your own picture in the chat window. You have to go through two dialogues before you can preview/change it! 2. Avartars/Icons belong on the left of the contact list - not the right where someone's long MSN name forces it off view with a scrollbar.
I know I should be making these comments on the Gaim bug/feedback forums, but I know for a fact many of these requests get ignored. I actually think the fonts look nice in Gaim, despite what someone else said on here during the previous IM topic.
It just may take a while to convince developers to implement the 'annoying' MSN features so that the rest of the users out there can come on board.
From TFA:
What happens when the corporation anybody seems to love to hate, namely Microsoft, release a killer app and of makes it free (as in dollars), but, of course, keeps its source jealously closed? And worse than that, use it to maintain a strong lock-in to the Windows platform?
OSNews: We don't need no stinkin' editors!
Additionally, he should track what Microsoft does and doesn't do with is "personal information," as outlined in Section 5: quoth the 'Soft:
In particular, "(3)pretect[ing] the rights, property, or interest of Microsoft" leaves a lot of wiggle room for listening to fresh ideas coming across their pipes (unlike AOL, who specifically state that whatever you type is theirs!).
Finally, he should continually check the Terms of Service; they "may change this contract at any time. You must review this contract on a regular basis." (Section 2). So what they say now isn't necessarily what they'll be saying later. Remember also that, like any business, it's nothing personal, just business. Their goal isn't to make you happy; it's to make money. If people get happy, it tends to give them money, but so long as most people are happy, a few people can get screwed, particularly if they can wriggle out of it in the courts and the courts of public opinion.
And finally, one-click videoconvferencing systems exist for Linux. For example, skype runs on Linux (again, check the ToS!), and also Gnome Meeting, amongst others.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Good point; but I don't think Linux has a problem with looks. MSN messenger looks as ugly as sin, has a cluttered interface and annoying adverts lodged in the client. Kopete, on the other hand, is clean, simple, and looks a hell of a lot nicer.
Not sure what version of Kopete he's using, but anything from the past year or so is pretty as can be and incredibly useable, and getting moreso with each release. It has very nice support for MSN avatars, fully customisable notifications, meta-contacts, tabbed chat... and they fixed up all of the bugs that made it hard to use quite a while ago. I agree that the file transfers and webcam capabilities aren't there, but that's not the UI, those are extras.
Umm, whenever I used a windows installer, it works, period. I've NEVER encountered a windows installer that didn't work. Ever. The program might suck, but it installs and novices knows predictably WHERE it installed as well (and without using "whereis" commands).
I am a Linux user...but I don't think anyone can argue that installing packages that are not in your sources list is easier than downloading and doubleclicking on a "install.exe" file in windows. But I DO enjoy your point about shell scripts that can do it all for you (which is really what windows installers are). It would make alot of sense if linux programs could simply be downloaded to desktop, doubleclicked on, ask for your sudo password, then go the the install motions AUTOMATICALLY detecting your disto, configuration, etc...and possibly asking if you'd like a shortcut installed to your app menu, if you want to make it the default program for a particular set of filetypes and so on...just like windows installers do. Linux can learn alot from windows when it comes to installation ease, and obviously in turn, windows can learn from linux when it concerns security (and making sure users really know what they are installing).
Until Linux packages are as easy to install as install.exe's, Linux loses big time in that respect. There's no debate there. I argue that it is THIS problem alone that really holds linux back from the big time, not instant messengers. If instant messengers were easy to install (and worked without odd hacks and forum digging), they would improve exponentially because their audience would have increased expontially as well to justify the extra development.
Linux is headed in the right direction...but the persistant folly of installation and upgrading woes is heavy plow holding it back.
I think, therefore I doh.
Gaim, while works great and has many features, is horribly ugly on Windows XP, with the new appearance also, but specially so with the classic Windows 2000 visual style. This ugliness makes me feel bad when using it, feeling that I don't get when I use Skype and/or Google Talk, both with [IMO] great interfaces (but these two programs are completely useless outside their small niches). Trillian and Miranda interfazes do not feel completely right either, but they do not feel as bad as Gaim. MSN interfaze is so-so also, but again better than Gaim, except for the really annoying advertisements it shows.
While Gaim running on Gnome 2.12 looks considerably better than in Windows, I still think that the look and feel of all its windows and option dialogs is way suboptimal. I am not an interfaze designer, and I have not stopped to think what exactly makes me feel that an interfaze is bad or good, so I do not know how to improve Gaim's one specifically.
For the shake of contrast, Firefox would be an example that does not have this problem, as the interfaze is delightful both in Windows XP and in Gnome.
Tools->Preferences->Conversations->Tab placement:
Top
Bottom
Left
Right
Left and right are vertical tabs.
Not everyone who uses IM tools uses IM 'tard-speech. Too many do, though. I work at a helpdesk, and we use IM to escalate issues to coordinators and whatnot. It's easy to log in conversation form, it's lightweight (being able to do things quickly and easily is a big plus, and since we use "Slowtus Notes", email doesn't fit the bill)... it works really well for us, filling in the gap between phones (in which you steal all of someone's attention for a short time) and email (which can get filed and forgotten way too easy).
The coordinators do ask us "did u get the tkt?" and "can u review?", though. And I thought people only talked like that in school.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
That's what distros are for.
They do have all the packages you might want.
If you find yourself searching for new software not in your sources list, you picked the wrong distribution. I would pick Ubuntu for new users. Plus they have a great spanish-speaking community, which is a plus if I don't want to give lots of hours of support.
Many distributions use package managers to install/remove/upgrade software; in order to solve inter-package dependencies, most of these distributions use meta-applications that run on top of the package managers.
E.g., on Fedora, rpm is the package manager, and yum is the meta-app that runs on top of it. If you want to install, say, php-mysql, you just run:yum will go ahead, pull the php-mysql package from the Internet, figure out the dependencies, download the missing ones, figure their dependencies as well, and so on until all dependencies are solved. At the end, you're presented with a list of actions that yum will take ("I will install such-and-such packages and update such-and-such. OK? y/n")
You never even have to touch rpm per se - yum does that for you.
It's really pretty easy. No more dependency hell since yum and similar programs became more popular.
Mod parent Troll.
With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.
That has got to be -the- most innacurate generalization I've heard about Windows in a long time. I can't be the only one with horror stories.
With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap
If you attempt to install joe-shmoe's downloaded package of software not included in a stable distro repository, then you are asking for dependency issues. The same is true of windows freeware downloaded from joe-shmoe's site too. Please do the following:
1. Install a popular distro
2. Don't fsck with the repository url's
3. enjoy
Packaging mayhem indeed... Mayhem is roughly defined as willfully maiming or crippling. Which is exactly what your post is to Linux.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
No, you're missing the point. A message is more than just a text string.
I just converted my neighbors 3 PCs over to Linux (Linspire) after two were totally trashed by spyware, virii and worms. He didn't give a damn about anything else other than: web browsing, e-mail, can open Word/Excel document (OpenOffice did it fine), and Java/Flash/PDF. Everything else -- EVERYTHING -- was available to axe. If it worked, fine. If not, it was expendable.
It worked great. His kids (teenagers) use one of the PCs for chat (MSN), browsing and homework. They burn some CDs (K3B), play MP3s and videos (Amarok & Kaffeine) and do the stuff most kids do with a PC (Firefox, GAIM & OpenOffice). Their ONLY complaint was MSN video chat was missing from GAIM. Everything else they had no issues with -- just a couple days learning curve as to the differences.
They all live on IM, just like my kids. File transfers on GAIM are a problem if you're behind NAT; setting AOL buddy icons is a pain (can't use aim:// -- maybe I can figure this out...); can't do video or voice chat. Well, they can use PhoneGAIM with their friends that have a SIP client, which is a few.
IM *IS* video chat, file transfer, buddy icons and all that other cutesy crap.
-Charles
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back.
Hmmm.... 1) Users hate Windows. 2) Users don't move to Linux because it is not enough like Windows. I fail to see how one leads to the other except that many users have a love-hate relationship with Windows. They hate it but they are afraid of anything else. Therefore they will keep the evil they know instead of moving to the unknown. YOU CANNOT WIN WITH THIS CROWD SO STOP TRYING.
Linux is different. We should be saying "This is different. It is as different from Windows as a Mac is. Yes there are similar user interface guidelines, but the underlying technology and ideas are different."
They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN with me, including webcam conversations, but it simply doesn't work for them.
Web cam conversations are possible using other means. And if you are stuck with MSN, I would suggest waiting until this is available. It is not that we need this to succeed, but that we need this to meet a particular person's need. These are not the same statements.
Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux... sure, it's nice, fonts are prettier (in the opinions of many), but that just doesn't do it...
IMO, people are *way* too concerned about eye candy. We need to be concerned about usability and functionality. Hint: Most people want their computers to "just work" as tools and help them get a specific job done. By focusing on getting these jobs done better than Windows, and making things "just work" which IMO it already does in the vast majority of cases better than Windows already, then Linux will succeed.
Here is a hint. Unlike Microsoft, our success is not driven by flashy feature comparison cards handed out by the Marketing Department. Instead, our success is based on getting a specific job done and having that customer recommend Linux to the next guy. This is what we need to do to "succeed." No, Linux is not perfect, and there are many areas such as interoperability where progress will be made, but this is not a feature checklist. It is a general goal of interoperability and functionality.
Again, the goal isn;t to be like Windows. It is to get specific jobs done *better* than Windows.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I never understand how we can't remain on topic when it concerns the difficulty of Linux installations. Instead of focusing on the problems of Linux, we are led into a whole other discussion about its security features. Yes, we all realize that Linux has a more secure list of "safe" software and has a better software installation procedure (with its package managers only). That doesn't negate the fact that many people want to go outside of the box (and their sources list) and install new software that hasn't been whitelisted and packaged for their distro (yet or ever). Once you require this and you are a linux novice, you are screwed. Security is great, but what good is that if you can't install the software you want without spending hours on some forum with a bunch of other confused users with different configurations and non-universal setups? There is absolutely no reason for this. Linux *could* copy the windows intaller model add a sudo password requirement dialog (just like when you use a package manager), and automate the installation process no matter what distro is being used. Linux could do this, but it doesn't. Installing a package from source is no different from downloading an installer from the internet concerning security. There IS a big difference however to the novice computer user: In Windows they can actually install their desired program, in Linux they are mystified. Linux is great for people that need the internet, office, email etc. But for "power users" that are not programming pros, linux is a nightmare when they start adding and customizing and upgrading and tweaking and so forth. Linux has the security thing down. But software for linux needs to be universal across distros and easy to install. You know it, I know it, and so do 98% of desktop users that don't use Linux.
I think, therefore I doh.
I've noticed that the stability issues might be in the library code, because the popular multi-service IM apps on OS X (Fire, Proteus, and Adium) all use them, and all are rather buggy.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
apt-get
generally, there are two methods that the "executable installer" model uses to deal with library dependencies: 1) the library's already there? just overwrite it, we're the only app in the universe! or 2) just stuff it all in a directory somewhere. we'll keep our own private copy of every library -- nothing says "security" like 90 slightly different copies of zlib!
people who are still talking about "RPM dependency hell" or "featureless Gaim" are living 2 years in the past. if they don't like Linux... fine, don't use it. but don't bother me with a bunch of stories from 30 versions ago about how you couldn't get it working.
LOL so you are saying that installing things on windows always works smoothly? IT never crashes your system or leaves your computer in an unusable state? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
That's rich man.
Oh and I NEVER have the problems you are talking about, maybe that's because I use ubuntu instead of rolling my own distribution like you did. People like you and beginners should never roll their own distributions, there are lots of distros out there with great package management.
evil is as evil does
Ok Mr. Linux Zealot. This is the type of information that is harmful to Linux. Guess what a Lot of people may need to install an application that is not on the distribution. Just because the distribution doesn't have it it doesn't mean that you chosen the wrong Linux distribution. You may have chosen that distribution because it is the only one that proply supports your new hardware, but it may not have came with one Application. Also there are a lot of applications out there and some of them may not be that popular, but they do the job you want and only 100 people in the world use it. Linux needs to be designed to install applications a lot easer. I for one prefer the Static Binaries and organized like Mac OS X method. Which is very rare.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
It's basically all about the emoticons. My gaim supported all the yahooim emoticons, but then yahoo updated, and then the new emoticons weren't supported. I kept telling people at work to switch from yahoo im to gaim on windows (I was using and will continue to use gaim on GNU/linux), but they wouldn't do it because it didn't support the new emoticons.
... same goes with GNU/linux and Windoze. You HAVE to buy the latter when you buy a new computer (yeah, I too build my systems from parts, but only geeks will ever do this). When hardware companies start selling pre-loaded GNU/Linux systems for less than the cost of windows, people will switch (at least businesses will first and then home users will get the same thing that they use at work and that their kids use at school).
Other people complained that gaim wasn't intuitive. Some complained that trillian looks better (I personally think that trillian resembles win32 crap nagware and think the ui is ugly, but to each her own).
Anyway, it's hard to make end users happy when you're a developer. People who can get free-as-in-beer im clients for win32 from yahoo and aol will only switch to FOSS IM clients if the latter absolutely blow the freeware versions out of the water.
It's like firefox and IE. IE already comes with windows. People aren't paying for it anyway. Sure, you can convince some people that IE will give them spyware, but for most people they don't care that firefox is better -- IE works ok. However, when the barista at my local coffee shop asked me if, as an IT guy, I could hook her up with a pirated version of MS Office and I told her to use OO 2.0 RC2 instead because it's quite good and free in every way, she got really excited and has been using it ever since.
Please help me out here. I am wracking my brain trying to think of a case where Microsoft started charging for something that was once free
POP access to hotmail is the only one that comes to mind, so you're right in saying that MS doesn't use that strategy to gouge consumers in its normal course of business.
Operating Systems, nope, they never were free (though the service packs and updates have always been free)
True, but as time has gone (and competition disappeared) the price of a MS OS has gone up substantially--especially in relation to the cost of the hardware on which it runs. You also seem to suggest that MS is being generous in giving away updates and service packs. IMHO, if MS didn't give them away they already they should be forced to as they correct product defects. Ford was forced to rectify the design flaws in their Pinto so why would MS be off the hook?
IE, nope, free (at least until the government intercedes on our behalf and makes us buy it)
No court in the world has instructed MS to charge extra for IE or WMP. The issue was *bundling*--not only including the apps with the OS but also purposefully INTEGRATING them into the OS to the point that they cannot be removed or replaced--encouraging application developers to treat what should've been applications as "system componenets" and building dependencies on them into everything. This is bad on two levels--from a technical standpoint it creates a monolithic architecture which is a major factor in the weak security of Windows. From an economic standpoint it shuts out competition and creates a captive market--even if you install Firefox on Windows you cannot remove IE--you need it for Windows Update and for a number of apps to work. That is NONSENSE--such things shouldn't depend on IE.
Office, nope, never was free - though the price has DROPPED significantly as competition has disappeared
The price of Office did not drop because of the lack of competition. The price of office dropped BECAUSE of LOWER-PRICED competition. OpenOffice can be obtained at no cost--that's a pretty low price. Even more crucially, the biggest competition for MS Office is...the previous version of MS Office. After all, settling with what you already have 'cause it works well enough is ust as free (monetarily) as OpenOffice.
There MUST BE at least one example! I mean, after all, it's "common knowledge" that this is a predatory Microsoft practice.
Well, I already gave such an example in MSN Hotmail--some services that were free now costs money. I do not think this was done as a "predatory practise" however. The "predatory practise" that MS HAS done is the opposite--they release a product for sale, then start giving it away, then start bundling it. This is what they did with IE--first it wasn't even included on the Windows setup CD and you had to buy a "plus pack" to get it. Then they started giving it away as a download (which was slow) for a short time until it appeared in the Windows 95 "A" release. To that point they were just being aggressive--after that their actions became predatory and monopolistic. By the time NT4 and the "B" version of 95 were in wide use MS had turned IE into a "component" of the OS on which much of its own software (and a number of third party titles) depended.
It isn't actually the fact MS gives away some software that makes it predatory--even if they were to later start charging for it. What hurts the industry and consumers is the way they use their pricing strategy *AND* their platform architecture to LOCK IN users, often at the expanse of security and stability.
Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back.
MSN video chat won't get ported to Linux for the simple reason that it's a Microsoft-proprietary system. If people can't deal with that, that's too bad; they should stay on Windows.
Incidentally, it works both ways: my favorite software isn't available on Windows. In fact, I find Windows kind of a wasteland in terms of software: lots of crappy shareware apps, a few decent but overpriced commercial stuff, and then Microsoft monopoly-ware. Thanks, but no thanks.
The article doesn't talk about the "best" Linux instant messenger at all, it talks specifically about Gaim.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
I use bitlbee, an IRCd that talks to the major IM networks in text format. Access this in irssi (any tty irc client will do). Leave it running 24/7 on a server in a dtach (or screen) instance. Attach to it from anywhere on earth. See in the logs the time your buddies came and went, and any messages you missed. Chat from one machine, move to another and continue the conversation. At home on my LAN, I run the trigger script, and have it play sounds on all my PCs in the house when I get a message.
Lots of new features in the new upcoming version of gaim. Read the list yourself. It's mouth watering.
There are a lot of people moaning that IM's in Linux don't support voice, video etc. and I think that quite a few are missing the obvious.
Firstly, most Linux systems are behind an iptables firewall. This has to be poked and prodded or have iptables connection/NAT helper modules in order to let most video/audio into the computer. Text-based messaging works perfectly without any extra config. More and more systems are behind NAT's, because of the advent of broadband and broadband routers (especially popular now that they include wireless).
Being behind a NAT can stop quite a lot of this stuff working unless you want to start editing your settings (way beyond the average computer user). Programs like Skype etc. help in that they automatically traverse NAT without any sort of help but things like MSN Messenger can be a pain in the backside. Yes, some routers will support UPnP but let's not even start on the troubles that is likely to cause.
It then becomes a question, not of why doesn't the IM program do it but of why is it made so damn difficult for the program authors? If it wasn't for closed-source and sometimes closed-spec systems using all different protocols that change constantly, drastically and without warning, expecting connections over all different ports with IP embedded in all sorts of packets, not being able to navigate NAT without some security disaster like UPnP (which has little support in any system other than Microsoft's) and being used less and less in favour of protocols that "just work".
I've never used video over the internet. It's slow, clunky, bandwidth-hogging, a pain to configure, doesn't NAT very well if at all, needs extra hardware and has all the advantages of a videophone, i.e. none. This is why videophones haven't sold well either, despite being around for many years. Voice is a slightly different issue and can be quite useful and popular (a friend I know uses Skype to phone her dad who lives across the road and my girlfriend is interested in using it to talk to her dad in Kuwait.)
I mentioned to my girlfriend the possibility of over-the-net communication and she was very keen (currently 70p / minute to phone Kuwait from the UK) but has absolutely no interest whatsoever in video, neither has her computer-illiterate father who would have to set up all sorts of stuff (including getting broadband in a foreign country) in order to get video working, whereas a microphone and a volume setting is well within his knowledge.
I can't imagine that, as a percentage, many people at all use video. A few more probably use voice but I should imagine (at a complete guess), 95% or more (by connection, not by bandwidth) of IM is pure text. I work in schools and text works over the school networks, voice and video do not. The kids only ever use MSN as text because even at home they can't be bothered to get video working when text needs no configuration. One or two have played with voice but so many of their friends are text-only too that nobody uses it on a day-to-day basis (videophone syndrome again).
In fact, the only place most teenagers would use voice comms would be inside their games, counterstrike etc., where again it "just works". How many of them use those games on Linux? Zilch. How many people who use Linux would actually use video - only a few and them be geeks who know how to get stuff wokring anyway. How many would use voice? Maybe a few more. In the end, though, Linux isn't mainstream and Linux IM's are constantly playing catchup through no fault of their own.
There's no point having Linux voice/video IM (an awful lot of development work just to get the tiniest of results) until some standards are adopted by everyone and stablised, there are mechanisms in place to help the packets traverse properly, ordinary people actually start using Linux on the desktop and they start demanding it.