Slashdot Mirror
China Going Up and Coming Down
SoCalChris writes "The BBC writes that China has just completed the world's highest railroad, climbing to 16,640 feet (5,072 meters) above sea level. The cars will be sealed to help passengers cope with the pressure changes from the altitude. The line is expected to begin carrying passengers next year." This news comes at the same time that their Chinese taikonauts return from their spaceflight after just 115 hours in orbit.
SoCalChris writes "The BBC writes that China has just completed the world's highest railroad, climbing to 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*2*5*13 feet (2*2*2*2*317 meters) above sea level. The cars will be sealed to help passengers cope with the pressure changes from the altitude. The line is expected to begin carrying passengers next year." This news comes at the same time that their Chinese taikonauts return from their spaceflight after just 5*23 hours in orbit.
This just seems unsafe to me. Imagine something goes wrong and the train is stuck up at that altitude. Then what?
I remember riding a train that had colided with a truck a few years back. This wouldn't likely happen at that altitude, but what could happen would be wildlife and environmental blockage.
It seems like a challenge to me.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Well that seals the cultural genocide of the Tibetan people.
:wq
Ok, goody for them. Having a third player in space is probably a good thing even if they are the communist Chinese since they probably won't remain communist a lot longer. On the other hand it is just another doomed government 'prestige' program that won't actually acomplish much before being abandoned the second the cost exceeds the publicity value and that always happens long before anything longterm good can happen.
Nope, the only hope of our species getting off this rock is private enterprise.
Democrat delenda est
World biggest roller coaster?
-- Por mais que eu ande no vale das trevas e da morte, meu PowerMac G4 Não Travará!!!
At first I was thinking this sounds awfully xenophobic...
And then I thought "He who underestimates the chinese is a fool"...
But then I realized, I agree. Their track record at honest reporting of events isn't so good.
I'm glad China's having good progress (in many respects). I do hope their government loosens up (maybe money'll soften them like it did ours) so they allow freedom (since it means more money) to speech and internet and whatnot. Just tell them that!
Now, I really really do hope China doesn't make giant killer robot, and I'll be fine with them for good.
random underscore blankspace at ya know hoo dot comedy.
Um, I think if they were faked, it would be all over western news. Kind of like how if the Apollo landings were faked, every other country in the world (which includes the Soviet Union) would have reported that the US faked them.
In case if someone doesn't realize, the lower four pictures are simulated artwork, which is what the blue heading indicates in Chinese. Please don't shout "they're fake."
I once had a signature.
It also comes at the same time that the number of Chinese people living in extreme poverty rose by 800,000 last year.
While we [the /. crowd] bitch and moan about Microsoft and while the great herd worry more about Britney's spawn than credible science, more about the latest American Idol than engineering and while China and India graduate more scientists and engineers than the US...you can expect many, many more reports like this. The 21st century just may be when the Sino-Communist brand of capitalism eclipses lAmerican power and influence.
You missed the link to the chicks http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/15/conte nt_3618725.htm at the bottom of the page.
I actually rode on the Central Rail Line in Peru which was the former highest. Now I am going to have to go to China to ride this thing.
DAMN.
I will say the Peruvian one seems still a bit more challenging - no wussy sealed cars. You get to experience altitude sickness in all its glory.
Are they talking about funicular trolleys or actual heavy rail? Because heavy rail generally sees a 4% grade as a maximum due to, well, physics. Since I'm not aware of any fantastic engineering innovations, this must be some sort of light rail--or at least lighter than standard heavy rail.
Asparagus has many and excellent powers.
Ok but, why would they simulate those landing rockets, if not for increased awe? Or do you think they actually were there?
I'd like to know what a rocket scientist would think of landing rockets on the bottom of the capsule, blasting off (presumably) after the parachutes have detached. That picture smells like propagandistic hype to me, but IANRS.
with expanded access to new goods and services, educational opportunities, and contact with the outside world
All of the above could have been accomplished without destroying a millenium of scholastic and artistic works. Not to speak of the execution and incarceration of its living representatives.
Real shame that the standard of living in Tibet has risen steadily from the subsistence level ever since the CCP took control, huh?
For the Chinese immigrants. The native population are treated as second class citizens. Hundreds of thousands died of starvation when collectivism was first introduced, and most survivors suffer from various disabilities caused by malnutrition.
:wq
Ooops, the last 4 pictures are really fakes, but the Chineses are too lazy to remove the word 'mo2ni3', which meanings "simulated photoes", from these pictures' titles. otherwise, some stupid slashdot readers may think these pictures are for real.
**grin**
but what advantage does the railroad have over trucks/busses or planes? I was under the impression that they're rather dangerous and costly in comparison. I mean, here in the US Amtrak is struggling because of the derailings and the fact that it just isn't cost efficent... am I missing something?
Yeah, and the US space program has advanced from that point in leaps and bounds hasn't it?
I mean, it seems like only yesterday that we planned to send people to Mars, and look where we are today.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
The images on Xinhua are meant to demonstrate the capsule landing. They're not pretending to be actual photos. You should know better than to trust headlines with a question mark at the end of them.
Haha maybe this'll cheer you up:
2 7/content_446335.htm
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/
"The name may not roll off the tongue quite like American Idol does, but that hasn't kept the Mongolian Cow Sour Yogurt Super Girl contest from sweeping China. Zhao Jingyi, 17, the "schoolgirl" candidate won the Changsha competition.
Like Idol, which named its winner Wednesday night, China's Super Girl gives aspiring singing stars a shot at televised fame and fortune."
Looks like American culture has spread far and wide...
...join the mile high club without ever leaving the ground!
-EL
This type of thing goes on all the time in western media, and there was no attempt to pass off the images as actual photographs. It's just a misconception put forth by xenophobic conspiracy nuts.
The sheer arrogance emitted from some posts are really not worthy of slashdot, and/or its readers/posters.
What China has done, - in terms of the Qinhai-Tibet rail-line, or its spacecraft, - is not better, nor worse, than those from other countries.
Do we see any comments like the
" Some of the images of the spacecraft look fake"
and
"and the ones that don't look fake show damage on the spacecraft"
and
"This just seems unsafe to me. Imagine something goes wrong and the train is stuck up at that altitude?"
and
"Well that seals the cultural genocide of the Tibetan people"
and
"Wow, you are finally almost to the point where the USA's space program was over 40 years ago. That is impressive"
and
"It also comes at the same time that the number of Chinese people living in extreme poverty rose by 800,000 last year"
ad nauseum
if the spacecraft or railway is from the United States of America or Russia ?
This development of sheer arrogance, is not checked, might even venture into the territory of racism.
I'm an /. old-timer, and I'm really sad to see /. goes to the dog because of these type of postings.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Real shame? How about this: A country that was free at one point, was completely taken over by a monsterously large other country. Their government has been replaced, they have destroyed the geographical heart of Buddhism itself, by burning monestaries, taking prisoners, and executing the innocent. A region so rich in culture is now strangled by China for it's economic and natural resources. Sorry if this is a troll, but I think had Tibet been free from the beginning, they would have done what's right for their own country rather than have China handle everything, treat their people as lower lifeforms, and ruin what took millenia to create. Thank Mao.
Real shame that the standard of living in Tibet has risen steadily from the subsistence level ever since the CCP took control, huh?
If I could trust a totalitarian government to do anything other than lie, maybe so. As it is they may as well be claiming that Tibetans are made of cheese for all the validity it has.
Anyway the song that "we're doing it all to raise the natives" has been the standard line of the conqueror all through history, and the natives always get the shaft in the end.
You had me until the 'capitalist' part. Chinese have so few freedoms, and businesses are no exception. I researched them for a human right project last year and, while there are many successful businesses in China, it happens falsely most of the time with heavy government interference. Without it much of their economy would crumble. Most of the big names in Chinese business are at least partially government owned or run. While they are not entirely 1984, i wouldn't go so far as to call them capitalism either, I'd rather not soil that name.
I am Spartacus
Tibet before the Chinese invasion was one of the most tyrannical, oppressive theocracies in history. Whilst the Chinese haven't improved the situation much, those who contend that Tibet used to be a peaceful mountain kingdom inhabited by gentle mystics are deluded woo-woos.
Just curious, did you create the throwaway account 2roll4life7 (900131) before creating 2*2*3*75011 (900132)?, Couldn't you just peek for the latest ID (923669 at time of writing)?
BTW: why don't they use some kind of limit clause on those queries? It seems they load the entire table and then loop forward to the starteth row!?
Me lost me cookie at the disco.
I am really starting to hate the China apologists on /. Way to go! you mention the railroad but you dont mention WHERE the railroad was made. If you read up on it you see that it was made to link China to TIBET where the local population is being wiped out by the chinese communists. Of course they are going to invest in somthing that provides more places for an over crowded china to move people to.
No, I am not a stoned "free tibet hippie", i happen to come from that part of the world.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
or maybe Cog rail, like the one to pikes peak
Never forget Egyptians built the first Great Pyramids 5000 years ago, and now they have tumbled to the point of technological weaklings. And this tells me that even tough US is the technology leader now, but things can change over time. I'll just sit back and see how China will take over the world (in terms of technological advancement). With over 1 billion smart people, this will only happen sooner or later.
Actually, I would rather see the story verified rather than falsified. But China is clearly trying to cast itself as a world superpower so they are going to have to get used to constant critisism about everything they do. It's how the big players are treated.
If there is any payoff to the destruction of US industrial might by moving it to China, their greater space activity is it. They are to be congratulated for a positive application of their growth and I hope they put the US to shame for the failure of its pioneer heritage. But the railroad, for all of its engineering prowess, is just another nail in the coffin of Tibetan self-determination. There are things more important than economic development.
Seastead this.
They have 1 billion smart people? Uhm, how are we defining _smart_?
> Tibet before the Chinese invasion was one of the most tyrannical, oppressive
> theocracies in history. Whilst the Chinese haven't improved the situation
> much, those who contend that Tibet used to be a peaceful mountain kingdom
> inhabited by gentle mystics are deluded woo-woos.
Yeah that's probably true to a large extent. Buddhists are really good at fighting each other (they're doing it at the moment, over who is the true lama of something), and they were running a feudal country with appaling treatment meted out to the serfs.
But china hasn't done much better on the peace and freedom front, and they did burn a shed load of monasteries. Not that you get many of those in a shed.
So you're all right and you're all wrong and I'm just pointlessly wibbling into my keyboard.
I have to wonder why they pressurize? I mean, they are taking people from lower altitudes to higher altitudes right? This seems different from a plane, where people go up to a high altitude, come down to a lower altitude, then get off.
Some people ought to be getting off in tibet, so what happens when they open the doors? Do they get the bends or does their head explode? or just get altitude sickness all at once?
Just because they are in a different country, the old addage still applies.
Remember, 1/2 of the population has an I.Q. UNDER 100
moo.
We also had a (roughly) 40-year head start on the Japanese in car-building, so don't get all high-and-mighty just yet.
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
Dude, it's not the place, it's the PACE. And they are moving along pretty quickly as of late.
Anyone see the icons used for this story? "Space" and "Technology" :)
Maybe we need an "Engineering Achievement" icon or something? Maybe a construction hat with a set of spanners orthe like...IANAA (I am not an artist), but I'm sure others will be able to come out with a suitable icon for these types of stories.
They definitely are of interest to the average geek, so they deserve to be on Slashdot. I think that engineering feats like these deserve their own icon too.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
I mean, Wow, we can't even feed the people on the ISS without the Russians.
Wow.
>You've said that it looks like an "aluminium motor home from..."
Do you know if it works ok for the job it was designed for? How do the looks matter here?
>It looks like it can barely support its own weight. Granted, gravity is very weak in orbit, blah blah blah, but doesn't this thing get strapped to the top of a rocket?
Ignorance is bliss. For things you have no clue about, its best to remain silent or do your own research.
>It's got burn marks all over it
>And no apparent heat shielding
You are speculating. You obvisously have heard the word "heat shielding" and thats about what you know about it.
"Its got burn marks all over it" - must be the funniest sentence
I've heard.
I could continue to post all your trash but I guess we aren;t contributing in a meaningful way on this.
I hate to point this out, but we do not even have that capability at this moment. Do you really wish to be rude to them?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Sure. Bringing the richness of Chinese cultural across the broad land.
Except Chinese workers replace Tibetan workers, meaning the only way for Tibetans to earn a living is to be completely co-opted into Chinese society. And that means no more Tibetan culture and Tibetan religion strictly on Chinese terms. Tibetans become a minority in their own lands and the culture disappears.
NEVER forget that part of Chinese "progress" is heavy duty state control. Do not impose western assumptions of freedom onto China - on the surface they may be advancing, but underneath it is a pretty nasty place.
Tibetan cultural genocide is the right term.
Japan also fails many of these tests... and yet they're one of the biggest economies.
I understand that in the early 1940's Germany had a pretty good rail system and was making remarkable progress with rocketry. Can't wait for the Slashdot retrospective on that.
Oh! Excuse me, have I triggered Godwin's Law?
[Insert pithy quote here]
And what's with the "after just 115 hours in orbit?". Sounds like a little bit of disdain there.
"just 115 hours." Well, have you done any better, Scuttlemonkey? Do tell.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
When the conductor opened the pressurized train car door for the first time in Tibet, the pasengers were heard to exclaim, "This place really sucks!" as they blew out the door.
Well, more often than not the natives do get civilized in the end.
Europe wouldn't be the same without the Roman empire, Russian
empire would not have happened had they not been conquered by the
Mongols. India owes its unity to being conquered first by Mongols then
Brits (the latter also screwed India in the very end by splitting
out what became Pakistan and Bangladesh, and getting out of
Afganistan which could have also been Indian). Let's not forget the
Chinese who had at least one dinasty of emperors from conquering
nation (Manchuria I believe, also Mongols for a while). And the whole
imperative to develop an effective state came from the horror of being
conquered by the Japanese.
Did I mention Britain which got conquered by Saxons and
became the definition of civilized nation. I could go on...
What it comes to is that conquerors need unity to rule effectively.
Sure they often wipe out or change local culture, but they create
a more monolithic state with better technology (realpolitik meets
darwinism). The natives often get something out of it in the end
provided they do not get mostly wiped out like what happened in
America.
They look fake because the little caption on top, in Chinese, says "Simulated Rendering".
The rest of the images, they must have filmed in the same sound stage that faked the Apollo moon landings.
-=- Terence
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
You are eaten by a jobs.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I've been to nearly 5900 meters while climbing Kilimanjaro, and I can tell you the air is pretty thin up there. We obviously spent a fair amount of time adjusting, but not the timeframe on Kili is rushed and you definitely feel it. On the final day we climb at a rate of several seconds per step breathing like we were running a marathon. Very exhilarating :)
The article makes it sound like oxygen/pressurized cabin is neccessary at this altitude. It isn't. We spent our final night higher than this altitude and I never even had a headache. I assume the reason why the workers received oxygen was to assist with the heavy labor they had to do.
The pressurized cabin on the train is merely a matter of comfort for most people, although that altitude is high enough to cause problems for some people susceptible to Acute Mountain Sickness or AMS. Since the purpose of the railroad is to reach those high altitudes, I'd assume most people are somewhat accustomed to it.
Here is a picture from the crater rim of Kilimanjaro's larger peak Kibo at sunrise. The smaller peak you see is Mawenzi, and the view is towards Kenya. I would love to visit Tibet some day.
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A friend of mine returned from China and Tibet two years ago and mentioned the train and how many Chinese made no bones about the fact the train would be used to move many Chinese into Tibet to shift the demographics and help dillute/destroy Tibet as an independent culture.
For all comments, I substitute Tibet with Iraq, and China with US to INFINITY!! haha, I win!!
PS: also s/falun gong/terroism/g
The US rail system is well managed, with one exception: Amtrak. The US railroads have realized that freight does not care too much about how fast it is going, sitting still waiting for another train to pass, and not taking the shortest route point to point.
So the US rails have decided to focus on freight where they hold nearly 2/3rds of all traffic (compare to less than 1/3rd for Europe's rails). That is good management: do what you can do well, and let someone else deal with what you cannot do well. I would argue that Europe's rails are mismanaged, spending all their energy on moving people when it is much easier to move freight.
s/Chinese/Americans/g
s/Tibetan/Native Americans/g
good day sir.
It looks like one of those aluminum motor homes from the 50s
I thought it looked more like one of those fancy terra cotta flower pots you can buy along the highway in Mexican border towns for a couple bucks a piece.
It looks like it can barely support its own weight. Granted, gravity is very weak in orbit, blah blah blah, but doesn't this thing get strapped to the top of a rocket?
Forgot 8th grade science? It's a dome, the strongest known shape.
It's got burn marks all over it
Compare to Apollo landings and the space shuttle. They're not exactly having to paint those tiles black, you know.
And no apparent heat shielding
Probably because it's sitting on it. You don't see the heat shield on the Apollo capsules except from below.
The parachute detaches before it hits the ground!?
Finally, you name something a little bit hairy...
Help us build a better map!
Although not quite innocuous, I fail to get overexcited about people moving in.
When people from Northern California (where I live now) bitch about people moving in from elsewhere, I don't exactly sympathize with them. So I don't automatically sympathize here.
Should I go and bury I-80 at Donner Lake because it just makes it easier for people to come over the (formerly protective) Sierra Nevada mountains and settle here?
Or should I go and pry out the "golden spike" in Promentory Point, Utah, because rails made it easy 100 years ago?
Of course China is investing in infrastructure to move people. We do it too.
Now, that being said, I'm not in favor of ethnic cleansing or killing of any sort. But just people settling? Well, there's a lot of people on this planet now. Everyone has to make a little room for closer neighbors.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Pressurized... I thought we'd become soft. While I haven't been to 16k+, I have been to 14k+ (Pikes Peak) and at that altitude, there's no need for assistance. And the cog railway up is supposed to be a hoot. Of course, a sealed cabin has the advantage that you'll reach the other end with all your kids no matter how pissed they get at each other. At least most people consider that an advantage ;-)
the clock on the wall says 4 til 7
First the average person is just fine at 16,500. Yeah, they will be a bit light headed, but nothing too bad...
I don't know about that. When I climbed Longs Peak in Colorado, about 14,000', I was sick as a dog and couldn't really think straight. And that's after living two months in Boulder (5150'). I recall recently climbing Mt. San Gorgonio in Southern California (11,500') with someone else, and we had to turn back at about 10,000' because she got seriously disoriented and out of breath, the first signs of altitude sickness.
Now, it could be I don't know any average people, but my personal experience says that 16,000' would be pretty serious without acclimatization, especially if, like me, you're no longer that young. I would certainly hesitate to try it without knowing I had oxygen standing by.
For one thing, the *first* thing that goes wrong when you have altitude sickness is your judgment. You start to make dumbass decisions, and lose track of time, and wander in your thoughts. Indeed, this mental dullness is suspected by some people for the climbing disaster on Everest in 1996 described by Jon Krakauer in his absorbing book, Into Thin Air.
Oh, come now. Surely you know that all of us Asians are good at math.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
It doesn't compare with the world's highest bus.
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Parent's post is pointless. It has nothing to do with "racism".
/. than the fact that said country has been spending the last several decades oppressing the country it just built a railroad to. The country that built the railroad has been killing, starving and imprisoning a large portion of the population of that other country, and doing its best to completely annihilate the culture of that country. If the oppressive railroad-building country was the United States we would be seeing the same comments. Who they are does not matter. The fact that they have built an impressive railroad does not outweigh the evil they have done and continue to do to this very day. If the US were doing the same thing to the people of British Columbia (Canada), you would be seeing the same sort of comments overshadowing the US building a technologically advanced railroad into B.C., even though most of the posters here come from the US. Would that be "racist" as well?
It has a lot more to do with the fact that a certain country building a railroad into another country is a lot less important to most of
But we do apologize for not saying "Oooh, shiny!" and then going on about our business without bringing up the fact that there is evil afoot in that part of the world that's a hell of a lot more important than some technological advancement.
I hate to break it to you, but the only country that cared about self-determination for Tibet was India. A couple of years ago, when India gave that up in exchage for a border and trade deal, Tibet was officially done.
Until, perhaps, China splits up.
Lies about crimes
I've studied Japanese history, both as to culture and economics. I've also done considerable business with Japan and as a consequence had the opportunity to travel in Japan. Having the above to go on I can give only a loose analogy in answer to your post.
First I think it's instructional to come to know Tokugawa Japan, and, as an added bonus, Tokugawa Ieyasu is an intriguing character. At first glance it might seem Tokugawa Japan would suggest by way of it's hierarchical, caste rigidity to lend weight in favour of your post, but I'd like to draw an analogy between the warring factions that predate the Tokugawa Shogunate. Japan, I think, has much in common with the preindustrial tribal factions of western europe, and, by way of a long reach, with Protestanism.
The Roman Empire failed, for many reasons, to dominate northern Europe, with the exception of Britain. I think it was the strifeful nature of warrior culture where the idea of a king was more akin to an agreed upon battle leader whose 'kingship' lasted only as long as the war. This allowed the northern european tribes to withstand Rome's onslaught. This same reluctance to bow to one kingly overlord is exemplified in Protestant refusal to bow to the Roman Catholic Church and, by way of M Luther to see it as the right of each individual to read from the Bible their own truth.
Generally, I suspect there's an underlying like current in Japan's culture to allow for pluralism. It's useful to remember that the Emperor worship of Japan as an ancient practise is in large part a fiction. I don't want to go any further afield so, as it stands, this is my best short reply to your post.
now back to my book
cheers
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
The second thing to keep in mind is that because the public transport systems within cities are so much better (New York is a bit of an exception, as the subway on Manhattan is very good), a lot of Europeans simply don't own a car even if they can afford it. Therefore, even if the train is a bit dearer in terms of variable cost, the money saved by not owning, garaging and servicing a car more than makes up for it.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
It does, you hypocrite.
You know, you're probably right. I mean, they are communists after all. America being superior to the rest of the world in all ways, if our democratic nation's own space agency is having such a hard time safely putting man in space, how can those godless communists possibly manage to do it?
I think the Russians were lying about their space exploration feats as well--They were communists too under the Soviet government. Nothing good has ever come out of a country that is ideologically opposed to the U.S.!
Meanwhile, I know I can perfectly trust our democratic government to be completely honest, just as American mainstream media sources are always 100% accurate. I mean, c'mon it's not like CNN has army psy-ops personnel watching over their operations. And our president would never lie to us about anything.
Anyway the song that "we're doing it all to raise the natives" has been the standard line of the conqueror all through history, and the natives always get the shaft in the end.
Most the time "the natives" are perfectly happy living as they are. Couple hours of 'work' a day to provide for their needs, and the rest of their time is free to live and to be. Satisfying life, if you ask me.
Today people work 40+ hours a week, plus commute time. And they do that so they can spend the rest of their free time watching flashing lights on a "television". Most of us can't even read anymore (I couldn't even read Harry Potter), not really anyways (slashdot comments don't count).
It's a very shallow life that most westerners get to live. We've just been 'hypnotized' to believe that it's greater than it really is.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
as well as some pretty good history of China.
It sounds like you read the history of China that refers to the "Tiananmen Square Riots." You should try reading a history of Tibet too.
:wq
But then, there's still 500 million smart people, which is larger than the population of US and Japan combined :)
Pussies!
But then I realized, I agree. Their track record at honest reporting of events isn't so good.
And America's is?
The permafrost on which the railroad is built may thaw in the rising temperature.
This brings back the Soviet-era joke.... Someone knocks on the door of the Russian Space Station. -Who is it? -Its se Chinese. -How did you get here? -Person on person, person on person.
-Palal
Don't forget that Europe uses electricity when we use Diseasel. That also plays a part in speeds and in costs.
-Palal
Maybe U.S. manufacturing workers who have been canned because their factories were outsourced can be a source of cheap labor for building the railroad. They can settle in China and become a vibrant minority, opening up 'american' restaurants on every corner. I can see it now: General Franks' Chicken.
http://www.areadan.com
I don't know if hundreds of thousands of Tibetans actually died or not (seems like there's not many of them to begin with), but don't forget that something like forty million ethnic Chinese died as a result of the collectivism stuff too.
When the Chinese come in and start appointing reincarnations of Tibentan religious authorities, it is pretty obvious they are treating the Tibetans worse than the Inuit are being treated by the US authorities.
Seastead this.
I'm wondering, since you are from the area, if you can share some of your first-hand experiences there. I'm an American living in Beijing: when I was in America, I dismissed the "free tibet" cause as liberal arts majors not having enough homework. Now that I am here, all I see are images of chinese on CCTV gushing about how interesting Tibetan culture is.. Perhaps you can provide me and some other people something I can take at face value?
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
Anyway the song that "we're doing it all to raise the natives" has been the standard line of the conqueror all through history, and the natives always get the shaft in the end.
Funny, that's exactly what most USians are saying about the invasion of Iraq.
apart from the local mobs that would hack off your limbs for going against their beliefs, to what extent did Tibet have a viable government?
You might want to look at how US students fare against students from countries like Japan, Singapore and China. Do consider, too, how Asian culture flourished during the middle ages when the rest of Europe was a slump. Things change, and change back.
Never mind safety, what about using the conventional train toilet (ie. A hole in the floor, or a conventional curved pipe toilet holding some water to stop direct air flow)... Has no one yet imagined? I wouldn't like to sit on that kind of toilet with the estimated pressure difference. It could be dangerous for my health. (I expect constipated me be advised to ride this train in the future)
The parachute detaches before it hits the ground!? Finally, you name something a little bit hairy... If you have retro rockets for the terminal stage of the landing then it is prudent to jetison the parachutes before engaging the rockets. You dont want the parachute to cover up the escape hatch or catch fire and impede egress. In windy conditions the chute could end up draging you all over the place. IIRC, the same proceedure was used for the old mars missions. Atmospheric braking to deorbit -> heatsheild jettisoned and chutes deployed at altitude -> parachute detached and retro rockets fired a few hundred feet up -> retro rockets doused and free fall for the last few feet.
The report is a "pre-announcement" of the railway, and has all the credibility of undiluted Chinese Propaganda. See ChinaView.CN's article http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/15/conte nt_3620072.htm for the unadulterated Chinese-English report of the ceremony - the government newsagency report is worth reading for the payout to the projects opponents.
The railway could be a wonderful feat of engineering - but you can't tell from these kind of reports. The railway traverses very inhospitable earthquake prone territory. How many slashdotters were aware that the day before the 8th October Pakistan Earthquake there was a large 5.0 richter scale earthquake with epicentre just 6 km from a mountain pass traversed by the railway http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/neic_dxbv.html ?
For a google earth placemark of the location see http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Numb er/139349/an//page//vc/1 ?
I couldn't find any media reports of the earthquake - and certainly no mention of any impacts or lack of impacts on the railway.
If the railway survived this unscathed, it would be a great credit to it. So why no report from the Chinese or Western media ?
The Chinese might be good at building monuments, and certainly can spin wonderful propaganda. But until they've built a hint of democracy, can you really give any credit to their claims ?
plurality should not be posited without necessity. - William of Occam
To be pedantic, the ancient Egyptians and current day Egyptians are not the same people. The nearest living relatives to the ancient Egyptions are probably the Copts, but most modern day Egytions are Arabs
Seeing and believing in China
Watch this Heartland Institute video
More water gets sweated out as it evaporates more easily.
link to the story about those pillar pls.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/metricmusic
Which history books have you been reading? For most of recent history (prior to 1950) Tibet was in effect an independent state. It certainly wasn't considered part of China when Britain invaded Tibet in 1903! Britain then gave it to China because all they wanted was a secure trade route through it. The Tibetans then overthrew the Chinese and by 1906 had regained effective independence. China then descended in to civil war and Europe in to WWI and so everybody lost interest in Tibet until China had become communist and invaded in 1949-50.
Most of China's historical claim to Tibet is based on the fact that from the 1300s Tibet was ruled by Beijing, which is technically true - but it was not ruled by the Chinese! The Mongols (Ghengis Khan, et. al) invaded China, Tibet, Korea and most of the rest of South East Asia and ruled the whole area from Beijing. That hardly gives China a legitamate claim, and it gives them no more of a claim to Tibet than it to Korea.
Since the invasion in 1950 vast numbers of Chinese people have been moved in whilst similarly vast numbers of Tibetans have died of starvation or fled to India, Nepal and Bhutan. The Chinese government has systematically sought to destroy the Tibetan culture, religion, and identity, to the point where Tibetans are now outnumbered by Chinese in their own land. This railroad will only accellerate that process.
Metal expands when heated. Here's what can happen: http://www.charmec.chalmers.se/railtech/suncurves. html
This story's been up almost twelve hours, and no one's said anything about "going down" and "coming up"? What's wrong with you people?
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
Let's face it, the only direction China can go is up considering the damage done in the 1960's and 1970's by the madman Mao.
Give 100 poor people from anywhere in the 3rd world a choice: A Visa to China or the United States. My guess is 99% will take growing poverty in the USA.
an ill wind that blows no good
Real shame that the standard of living in Tibet has risen steadily from the subsistence level ever since the CCP took control, huh?
Similarly the median standard of living in, say, Norway is higher than in the US. Therefore if Norway invades the US and starts providing free healthcare for all, generous benefits, high standards of education (in Norwegian) and top-notch public services, you will certainly be very satisfied with it and, for one, welcome your new Scandinavian overlords. Even if they indulge in small things such as crushing dissent, brutally suppressing rebellions and colonising the country with hordes of Norwegian settlers to such an extent that Americans end up being a minority in their country.
Purely rethorical question of course. After all, it's not like you'll have a choice.
Thomas-
It beats the previous holder of the record, a railroad in Peru that passes over 4843m, by only a couple of hundred meters, taking away a record it held since it was completed in 1912, almost a hundred years ago.
The fact is, not many places have much use for a railroad that high. Both the current and the former holders of the record would pass over the highest point in Europe or the lower 48 states.
What do you mean just 115 hours? How long have you been in space, wise guy?
Have you ever wondered How to Take Over
This might be a good news to Beijin; yet obsolutely a bad one to Tibet, Tibet's independence, human culture/civilization, human rights, and human environmental protection.
I've done some high altitude work as well in the Rockies. Not quite 14,000', but still very noticable.
The difference is, you're CLIMBING. Exerting yourself. Using up a hell of a lot more oxygen than normal. Altitude hits you very hard when you're doing any sort of exercise. Sitting in a train and experiencing low air pressure is much like being on an airplane - you don't even notice it, because you're barely moving.
I've never taken a barometric altimeter on a commercialized flight, but I do know this: while they are pressurized, they're nowhere close to sea level air pressure (anyone know what the equivalent altitude would be, btw?). I've seen people get dizzy after one too many trips to the bathroom, but generally no one notices as you're sitting down and hardly moving at all.
People who live close to sea level can get dizzy and out of breath simply walking at 5,000'. Let them sit down for a while, and they're fine. I've done 10-11,000' many times with people who are otherwise unused to it, and while they may stuggle a lot going up, they're almost always fine once they reach the top and have a chance to relax.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
f) In America cars can go anywhere, while public transportation is limited especially compared to Europe.
Therefore most people already have cars and it is usually more convienient to use them for medium length trips (don't have to plan around train schedule, have something to get around town when they get to their destination).
g) America is more spread-out that europe.
Therefore it is harder to support frequent routes to where people need to go. This creates a harsher trade off between convinience and price.
h) Americans have less vacation time than europe.
Therefore, Americans put a larger value on fast tranportation for long trips, and thus choose planes.
All of these decrease train usage which drives up the overhead price for the remaining customers. I like Amtrack, but it really doesn't have much place in the transportation system here in the US. Until the rest of the system changes, continental rail will be a fundamentally bad solution, because the economies of scale just aren't there.
Free Tibet!
Sweet! I'll take two!
It seems to me that Tibet (the people and the land) is as much a part of China as the Inuit areas of Alaska are a part of the USA
Well then, the PRC better hurry up and hand over Tibet to Taiwan.
The Republic of China (Taiwan) is technically still the original government of China before the Communists came along.
Many of the outer regions (you need to play Hearts of Iron 2 and you can see why it was banned by PRC) and you'll realize that most of China was divided by several groups all vying for power. Communist China assimalated all of them and then kicked the RoC forces out. The only reason China doesn't claim Mongolia was because Stalin made Mao drop the claims. We don't see China clammering for Mongolia to be back now do we?
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
I grew up in Leadville, Colorado. Their airport is at 9950 feet elevation. I would've had to dig quite a hole to join the Mile High Club.
(For some reason, oh maybe it was the sucky performance of airplanes at that altitude, I've never used my pilot certificate in Leadville.)
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
Yes, I lived. I wasn't even seriously ill. But, on the other hand, I was only on the top for 30 minutes or so, and the weather was fine, and I was in my mid-20s.
If, on the other hand, a Chinese train broke down at 16,000', the weather might well be bad, the people on board might be in their 50s or 60s, and rescue might not come for three or four days -- since, of course, they put the train in because getting up there is difficult.
I certainly agree most people could probably go to 16,000' air pressure for a short time without serious ill effect, and many people could go longer. But I also think it's not unlikely that quite a number of normal not-fit non-acclimatized people, middle-aged or older, would if left at 16,000' feet at -15 C for two or three days, without much water and food, be quite seriously affected. That's all I'm saying.
Yes, I walked up Longs. For some reason, I'm not comfortable with technical climbing and I've never really done any, although I've tried it out a little in parks. There's just some "unnaturalness" to it that I feel, so that even when I can do it, it isn't fun. It's just work. Don't flame me -- I'm not saying people who do it are nuts -- I think it's just a matter of taste, and it so happens that technical climbing doesn't suit mine. I realize that means I'm never going up Denali or Everest, but that's OK, I'm happy enough noodling around on lower peaks, and I'm a bit old for that kind of stuff anyway.
China's policy over the last few years has been one of population dilution. By trucking in native Chinese, they were diluting native Tibetan population. With this new railroad that process will accelerate dramatically. I spent a month in Lhasa last year and spoke with some of the Tibetans (technically you are supposed to have a Chinese guide present at all times, but since there were no other tourists there .. none .. the guide just took off to a bar), and they were very depressed about the finish of the railroad. Their culture is being coopted by China and western influence.
So very sad.
-coherentlight
There no conflict of common interests between Tibetan and the general Chinese. China has been messed up by communism for nearly 50 years. Tibetan did not suffer more than the general Chinese did in other areas.
In fact, nowadays, Tibetan, regarded as a minority of Chinese in China, have the right to have the second child, on which Han Chinese are very jealous.
They've done a fine job too: Bhopal, US tobacco industry, Pinkertons, South Africa, Love Canal...
It's most ironic that you were researching for a human rights project.
Do read some Upton Sinclair and Dickens. Without other moderating
cultural influences, capitalism have run rough shod over human rights for centuries. The benefit of capitalism is economical, not the promotion of a more humane society.
Historically, corporate interests attempt to use governmental influences to gain benefits for themselves as often as they want to be left alone. Look at trade tariffs, agricultural subsidies, the East India Company (Is that a company or an arm of the government?) !
There has never been pure lassiz faire capitalism and there probably never will be. If it comes to be, it's not obvious that you would want to live there.
Warning: poster 'nido' lives in an alternate reality.
Most the time "the natives" are perfectly happy living as they are. Couple hours of 'work' a day to provide for their needs, and the rest of their time is free to live and to be. Satisfying life, if you ask me.
A couple of hours, plus 100 hours working the fields and mines. Not to mention starvation, disease, non-stop tribal warfare, high child mortality, and a life expectancy in the 20s. That's when they're not being sacrificed at the altar or forced into marriage to the local chief. They barely made enough money to live in a hovel and eat stale bread and drink filthy water.
Today people work 40+ hours a week, plus commute time. And they do that so they can spend the rest of their free time watching flashing lights on a "television". Most of us can't even read anymore (I couldn't even read Harry Potter), not really anyways (slashdot comments don't count).
Today people hardly work any hours at all compared to the past, usually as low as 40 hours. They have great working conditions, with laws protecting them. They have easy jobs, often at desks rather than constant back-breaking labour. They work in clean offices rather than dust-filled mills or dust and gas filled mines.
When they get home, rather than going straight to bed in order to be up at 5am for the next day's hard labour, they get to relax, watch TV, sit in the pub, play sports, read, anything they want.
They eat decent food, all sorts of vegetables, meats, milk, imported spices, herbs and cheeses. It's all clean as well. They have so much money they can live in luxurious houses with running water, toilets, electricity, heating, air-conditioning and rooves that aren't made of straw. They have several bedrooms rather than eight kids in one bed. They have luxurious matresses and quilts rather than filthy blankets on the floor full of lice and rats. They have baths and showers, rather than bathing in the river.
Literacy is much higher today than it used to be. There is free education for all children. The 'natives' probably didn't have education for anyone other than elite, and that's assuming they had much written language at all. There's no time for learning when you're working every waking hour so the local chief can have a bigger palace.
You're looking at the world through rose-tinted specs. Probably been watching too much of 'seven years in tibet'.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You need to read your history a bit more carefully. The last emperors of China were Manchurians who have largely assimilated within the Han culture. They stationed permanent imperial officlas in Lhasa. They also got involved in selection of reincarnations when there had been competing claims.
When Tibet had de facto independence was from roughly 1911-1049 although they achived no international recognition. This is not insignificant, but certainly not overwhelming.
Britain were not interested in trading as much as their 'Great Game' of geopolitics against Russia.
I disapprove of the harsh methods the PRC government has deployed to suppress dissent and religions. However, there was never any systematic pogram to attack Tibetans as in Croatia. I find the term 'cultural genocide' more polemical than meaningful.
You weaken your arguments when you based them on inaccuracies or spins.
I don't know if hundreds of thousands of Tibetans actually died or not (seems like there's not many of them to begin with), but don't forget that something like forty million ethnic Chinese died as a result of the collectivism stuff too.
Oh, well, I guess that makes it all right then.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
How is poverty defined in China, vs. the US? As Bill Maher said, "America is the only country with poor fat people". What we call "poverty" would be considered pretty good living in much of the world.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
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Okay....
Don't let your nationalism blind you to your country's imperialism. Or is imperialism okay as long it's China being imperialist? (And I don't think my Tibetan friends would agree with you about Tibet either.)
Who said Iraq wanted US to "free" it? Maybe the Iraqi are happier withouer bombs and american skewed contractors.
Yes, I've been on reservations and indeed once visited Chief Dan Evanheema, the Hopi elder, when he was near death. I did so precisely because he was a living link to the authentic heritage of the Hopi made possible by the reservation system. You yourself point out, entirely ignoring my point about the value of reservations, that the problem isn't "loss of land" but "rather the assimilation with regular Chinese". That's my entire point. The US system of reservations, for all their inadequacies as a refuge from outside influences, has provided far better protections than are being afforded the Tibetans in Tibet. The main thing that is protecting Tibetans in diaspora is the social status afforded them, which allows the young people to be proud of their identity and respect those who most embody its living traditions but that is only good so long as the Tibetan cause is a popular cause. They need and are entitled to as a basic human right -- their own territory.
Seastead this.
Apart from minor quibbles like these, I agree that China has really been a poster-child for what we might call 'compassionate imperialism.'
You might have a different perception of their policies if you had spoken to as many former political prisoners who were raped by prison guards using electric cattle prods as I have. And no, these things are not only from the distant past. They are still occurring now, and if you go to Dharamsala, India, you can meet the newcomers who are arriving from Tibet, and hang out at the support organizations for former political prisoners (e.g., Gu Chu Sum) and see that these brutalities are not a thing of the past.