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Military Device Will Sense Through Concrete Walls
Juha-Matti Laurio writes "DefenseLINK News is reporting that 'troops conducting urban operations soon will have the capabilities of superheroes, being able to sense through 12 inches of concrete to determine if someone is inside a building.' By simply holding the portable, handheld device named a "Radar Scope" up to a wall, users will be able to detect movements as small as breathing. The Radar Scope hopes to eventually give troops the ability to see up to 50 feet beyond a concrete wall to decrease losses in urban combat."
... as the beeps get nearer and nearer... then THEY should be in to room... look UP to the false ceiling!!!!
Forget military use (killing), how would this work as a survivor searching tool (saving lives) after earthquakes and such? I bet DARPA won't let us "private secor" folk make it useful though. You know: "because people could use it for terror and someone might be killed by that terrorist. Save lives wih a weapon - stupid liberals"
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
how does it work? HOW?
For anyone interested, do a google on Terahertz Imaging.
Once the transmission technology comes down in price it's going to be great for the 'metal detecting' hobbyists. No more digging up rubbish. You'll be able to see the object. This is one technology that I cant wait for!
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
oh my god america is tottally wallhacking, kickban them from the server
*kicked from international conflict*
... but can it see through my tin foiled walls?
My other comment is funny
(someone had to say it)
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
Bah, what does saving lives matter compared to being able to watch your neighbors knock boots from your couch?
Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
Keep in mind, the eggheads at DARPA (they paid me once, too) would love nothing better than to actually tell their families what they do for a living.
Imagine something like the quakes in Turkey or Iran, and they could find survivors from under the concrete slabs. Kids could point to the TV and say "my daddy made that!"
Don't confuse politicians with individuals.
Nintendo proved Radarscope was a failure more than 20 years ago...I don't see what they think they're going to accomplish.
"Troops conducting urban operations soon will have the capabilities of superheroes, being able to sense through 12 inches of concrete to determine if someone is inside a building....by simply holding the portable, handheld device named a "Radar Scope" up to a wall" When they can leap tall buildings in a single bound, get back to me.
This is hardly innovative. It's one of the first things you can research in X-Com, and that game came out in like 1992!
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I'm practicing giving my walls the finger right now.
What this technology really does.
This spells the end for revolutions, for insurgents, freedom fighters whatever you want to call them.
This is the final nail in the coffin of home made firearms against your government.
Oppressive governments rejoice!
now we can make sure we kill everyone before moving along.
can we use it to see 1/8 inch beneath that tight sweater?
It would also be a good publicity tool, and the military is perfectly capable of using those (and, I might add, comprised of much better people than the grandparent apparently believes). Look at the thousands of lives they saved with relief efforts in the wake of the South Asian tsunami, among any number of similar incidents. Much of the technology used for that operation was developed with military purposes in mind, too (ships capable of creating water onboard, worldwide logistics systems which are "fault tolerant" when the fault involves literally wiping entire cities off the map, helicopter airlift of supplies and medevac, the best first responder medical teams in the world, etc).
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
I would like to know if the testing environments included many animals in the buildings. In many places in this world, people keeps poultry and other livestock inside their homes. As they are so sensitive, will these devices be fooled by rats inside the building? Or even flies? This thing could give so many false positives in real use as to be almost useless.
Seeing it from the point of view of a guerrilla fighter, now you would have an easy way of luring troops into your traps by simply putting a dog in the building. When the troops come, the booby trap explodes. Or better than a dog, use a man, seeing how low the own human life is regarded by some of the latests fighters-against-freedom groups.
It's perhaps just me but I'm a bit tired of this way of presenting technology as the key that will solve the problems of the military in guerrilla environments. Organization, training and motivation are in my humble point of view, much more important. But you cannot show them off so easily in a presentation, I suppose.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
In Soviet Russia, concrete walls sense through you!
Applicable countermeasures:-
cat
dog
pendulum
lava lamp
furby
This is an ultrawideband through-wall imaging system, and is an old technology that has been around for many years. Two of the many manufacturers are Time Domain [Flash!] and Camero.
Note that, while military radio emissions are regulated in the U.S. by the NTIA, U.S. civilian use of ultrawideband through-wall imaging systems is controlled by the FCC (by regulations established in April 2002 [pdf!]). 47 U.S.C. 15.510(5)(e) [pdf!] states that
Basically, and as defined by rules elsewhere, it's illegal even to possess one in the U.S. if you're not a first-responder type.More old news. CES is happening and the best we can do is recycled news stories?
Eh, that pretty much sums up CES though too. MS has a big exhibit featuring Windows Vista, their MythTV clone, their online version of Office and a bunch of 360 games. Of course, every TV manufacture is there showing flat-panels --most of them are garbage, my favorite is the 26" LCD Poloroid FLM-2600 complete with lousy 7.5 watt speakers (why did they bother?) and 600:1 contrast. The biggest Plasma I saw this year was a 102" 1080p. Every MP3-manufacturer that doesn't know how to make cell phones and was burned by the iPod takeover last year is back again this year with tiny tiny video-players that cost way too much. The cell phone manufacturers are there hoping (against hope) that the largest US cell phone networks shift to EVDO (wireless broadband) will help keep their sales up for at least another year. Daryl McBride's SCO is there hawking some online service for sending multi-media messages from Treo650 phones (NOTE: do not abuse the sale reps, those kids do not work for SCO --they are subcontracted and don't know anything about the lawsuits --offer them a new job or a candy bar or something). Add to this an unbelievable number of USB/SD flash and DVD-burners, plus the obligatory XXX Adult Expo (with 2 hour line) and, well you have CES2006.
No, fuck you, you piece of shit armchair patriot. I served in the Marine Corps, so don't tell me about taking care of our troops. I scavenged parts from the trash to make working equipment, because working equipment wasn't in the budget. Wanna talk about extreme case modding? I saw guys design and build electronic test equipment inside old suitcases because we couldn't get real stuff. Our aircraft were so old that the parts to maintain them simply weren't made anymore. Yet those same aircraft are still flying in Iraq and Afghanistan.
OMG WALLHACK!!
If it's any comfort to you the British have also encountered the same thing. Military procurement is just shite everywhere. It's a bit of a shock to hear the US military has those problems as well though. Goodness. Makes you wonder what all our troops are getting killed there for. We're certainly not fighting any 'war on terror' or any war that needs to be fought.
Who's Al Qaida? ;-)
This product has so many better uses that military, but if it is proved effective I bet no one else will ever see it. Why is it that some of the best inventions for saving lives end up being used to to take them, I guess that is just human nature, what a shame.
Business Voyeur
.. The enemy havent brought their Kryptonite...
-AlexC
"Someone is hiding in there. Let's kill it, just to be save."
Whoever moded that as a troll has also had a humour bypass.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
SUITCASES??? YOU LUCKY BASTARD!! We only had rucksacks! I had to scavenge parts from the sewer to get it working, because working equipment wasn't in the budget, and our equipment was a 486 and a gumball machine. Our aircraft were mainly comprised of half a stolen Russian MiG, and an old Lada.
They got some Red Faction obsessed mad scientist/techie guy to make a real life version of the gadget from Red Faction that lets you see through walls, unfortunately it can't kill anyone yet.
#!/bin/bash
login root
chmod 775 universe://
The Americans always think there's some sort of magical technical solution to something they have always been extremely crap at - guerilla warfare.
.run away! Run away!
.France and Mssr. Lafayette), but it seems it has forgotten its own history.
It is one of history's little ironies that later events have overclouded the fact that Benedict Arnold was one of the most brilliant leaders of guerilla warfare in history.
The capturing of Fort Ticonderoga in order to procure its cannon and how those cannon subsequently made their way to Boston. The Battle of Beemis Hights (I spent last night in the home of Gen. Philip Schyler who deployed Benedict in that action). Coming, literally, within yards of conquering Canada for America (and would have done so but for the lack of a pair of walkie-talkies).
Washington weren't half bad either. Why did he cross the Deleware (in secret, at night, in winter when such a move couldn't be expected)? To attack the endentured rear guard holding a barracks after the main army had marched out and then . .
America once stood as the object model for how guerilla fighters in a third world country could stand up to and prevail over a superpower (with a wee bit of help from . .
Not to mention its raison e'tre.
KFG
Once upon a time, Americans were very good at guerilla warfare. Just ask the British (sorry Britons) -- otherwise, we would still be English colonies. To paraphrase Bill Cosby, who put it so well in one of his routines, the American army could shoot from behind rocks and trees, and could wear any color they wanted to wear, while the British army had to wear red and walk in straight lines.
Unfortunately, like most other bureaucracies, we have become more formal as time has passed. I remember some of the reports out of Afghanastan early on where military people cited how hard it was to determine who was in the opposing army, since there was no standard uniform. I can imagine there were similar reports by British officers during our Revolutionary War. Our units (in Afghanastan and elsewhere) were nailed while in standard formations by people who fought the way the American founding fathers fought not so long ago. I found it ironic that we had come so far that we were now the proverbial Red Coats--obvious and easy targets for a less formalized force.
[By means of the preceding example, I do not intend to imply or disallow any moral equivalencies between those two conflicts. My point is in the fighting style and formality of military operations.]
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
.. was the first thing which came to my mind, but I can't find an appropiate place to put it at :)
Being an enlisted soldier in a combat MOS, I can safely say that at least half of the training we receive involves some facet of urban warfare, and I've sat through several hours of instruction on the matter. If you could get me some data on how many of those 2000+ soldiers died while engaged in urban combat (as opposed to IED and other deaths), you'd have a more convincing argument for The US Army's supposed lack of urban fighting skills.
Canadian, eh?
Question Authority before IT questions You
NO doubt this device will somehow be used against the USA one day. Criminals will be using this soon, you just wait. I am happy I live in Jamaica where we dont go to war with anyone but ourselves! I wonder if the regular cops are gonna start using it and if so do they need a warrant to use it?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Years of bloody conflict in Northern Ireland have made us pretty good at urban situations but it's wrong to blame this on the troops. One British army officer said the best tactic his men used was to wear berets rather than helmets and play football with the locals. You can't defeat a guerrilla army with firepower alone, you neeed local support as well.
The invasion was messed up in so many ways, even before the troops got there (lack of manpower, no post-victory plan, underfunding or misappropriated funds) that Iraq was always going to turn into a nightmare.
That said this device could be useful. Rescue teams in earthquakes and building collapses, fire crews and even individuals worried about muggers will love it. It's also going to be a boon to burglars.
There's a very simple way for looking through walls: it's called a window.
reverse the polarity on the flux capacitor and use this for some mad WiFi?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
Depends on your point of view; if the "other side" has them it could *increase* your losses in urban combat, since they'll know which buildings it's worth lobbing a grenade in to.
Suppose that blip on your new radar is a bunch of civilians or allies?
<sarcasm> No worries there -- the government will have tapped the phone lines or tampered with the mail of the intended civillian target well in advance to know they shouldn't be shot. </sarcasm>
Also any minister or other religious person, or anybody who works for a corporation. Hollywood told me so.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
This kind of nonsense comes up every time a new piece of technology is developed. These (new pieces of technology) will destroy our way of life and we'll all be the slaves of (our new evil overlords). This kind of bullshit will never happen. That's because regardless of whatever the new technology does, the politicians or the military or the evil profit-mongers will still need people to work for them and get things done, and that means that those people have power. Power is all that is necessary to facilitate a revolution.
Now, if the technology makes everyone but our evil overlords obsolete, then we might be in trouble. But, they also wouldn't have a good reason to enslave us, so they would have to so only for their own amusement.
You only need to look at Vietnam and Somalia. Also, urban fighting isn't about just urban fighting. It's about interacting with civilians, making them feel at ease with you and not giving them a reason to shoot you in the back. It's also about getting useful information from them you wouldn't get by riding past in a Hummer. It's also about looking around you and thinking about where you are before you shoot. For God's sake get on your feet and walk around rather than running around in vehicles.
Even if they could detect firearms, which I doubt, why would it matter? Nevada has extremely lax firearms regulations. I have never seen a hotel that had a posted policy against firearms; in fact I'm not even sure they can. Your hotel room is considered your residence and you have an inviolable right to have any kind of gun you like there.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
I'm really really tired of people making comments of this sort. In any civilized society, the citizens have to give up some "privacy" in order to have the protection granted by the society. Privacy means nothing if your life and well-being are constantly at risk. So, enjoy your time in Jamaica. Oh, and enjoy your Jamacian crime rates as well.
Sig* sig = theOneSig();
The US Military already minimizes losses by killing everyone in the house before going in. They call in an air strike or lob a combo of HE+WP shells ("Shake 'n Bake"). See Fallujah, Najaf, Baghdad, etc...
Hi, could someone stop by my house and demo the device for me? I have a few pesky mice that I want to get rid of. I'm hoping it can detect the little varmints breathing too and not just humans. Oh yeah, and if you can grab that darn neighborhood skunk that nukes my house in the summer from time to time, I throw in a bonus. Thanks so much.
--
I type a different sig every time I comment on something. Here is my latest.
I'm sure the nazis would've loved to have this technology when they were hunting for the hiding jews. Unfortunately history repeats and whoever it is this time who's hiding will have a much harder time next time around.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
With murder rate in Jamaica #3 after south africa and brazil, you sure don't have to worry about foreign soldiers or terrorists killing you
So this thing will really be able to distinguish between bad guy holding pipe bomb and joe citizen holding thermos or can of pringles? hmmm....
Yes, back in our days...
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
Terahertz imaging can penetrate only cloth, paper, plastic, and other thin tissues. It doesn't penetrate human skin, that's why it's been considered for airport security. It certainly won't penetrate a concrete wall.
The parent post is not insightful. It is just anti-american crap, backed up with no facts, no evidence, and no references. The moderators should be shamed for modding up such garbage. What does this contribute to the discussion?
If the Parent had his or her handle logged in, parent should of been modded up due to a witty reference from a killer videogame.
Since American technology as such little importance, can you please explain why the British troops use American guns, armor, tanks, planes, etc in combat?
When Enoch Root and Randy Waterhouse are in the jail in Manila, Root comes out with this lecture about how the Second World War was a conflict between worshippers of Ares and of Pallas-Athene -- the Ares-worshippers built bigger guns and tanks, while the Athenians used their knowledge to make the same guns and tanks, which may have been inferior to the Ares-worshippers' ones, but they were mass-produced and covered in superior electronic sensors. The physically-strong were defeated by the mentally-strong. Knowledge is power, sensors are good, and surely this man-portable battlefield radar-scope is ... wholesome. Western armies need such things, as more and more conflicts are likely to be urbanised insurgencies rather than wars between nation-states.
But consider also Bobby Shaftoe. He relies not on decrypted communications intercepts and on fancy sensors, but on his eyes and ears and his brain and his training and he displays adaptability.
Shaftoe is inserted into Luzon with a team ahead of the main invasion, and given boxes of spare parts for Thompsons he is soon handing out assembled "trench brooms" to the Filipino soldiers with him. And when the Filipino lieutenant identifies an aircraft above them as a P-51, Shaftoe is taking cover, and any other soldier with sense follows his lead, because he has identified the aircraft as a US Army artillery spotter plane.
Shaftoe would take a dim view of this man-portable battlefield radar-scope. He doesn't need it. What would happen to anybody who is trained to use it and relies on it when they don't have it? At the first wall on the battlefield, they'll just ... stop.
Toys are fun but they are no substitute for competence. I am gravely concerned at the extent to which various militaries can no longer navigate because of their apparent dependence on GPS.
You want to look after your precious troops? Don't piss off other countries. Pay more attention to your fucking airspace. Don't flip out and have hundreds upon hundreds of innocent (Civilians + Troops) lives lost. As I once read on a sign, "Bombing for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity." -- not everything can be solved by blowing shit up.
Just because there's one criminal orginization doesn't mean the whole fucking continent is evil, folks. If you think that's how life works, take a look at the US. Serial killers? check. Rapists? check. Murderers? check. War propaganda? check. (Disagree with me there? take a look at Uncle Sam. How many other countries have a commonly known figure that tells people to join the army? I count none.)
I know this is going to get modded as Flamebait or Troll, but trust me, it isn't. I have many a friend in the US. They agree with me. Matter of fact, that goes hand in hand with what I said in the prior paragraph about how it 'doesn't mean the whole fucking continent is evil, folks.'
It's never just a game when you're winning. - George Carlin
What 4th amendment protection will exist when police state can fly over your house and see inside? Seems like 4th amendment is pretty much gone now anyways with patriot act, and further abuses already committed. This just adds another method to chip away our rights. We will need a new bill of rights that spells out huge personal penalties when rights are violated that includes using technology to do so. br, TK
You forgot to mention lousy pay.
May the Maths Be with you!
"If we fought in Iraq like we did in WWII when we occupied Germany we wouldn't have these problems of insurgency. Back then if someone exploded a car bomb or shot our soldiers, we just pulled out of the city, shelled it for 24 hours(all of it).... By making it a living hell for everyone, if the enemy attacks our soldiers, then the people stop hiding these insurgents or supporting them."
Oh dear.
I guess we have to blame your teachers for this, "Sir Foxx".
In WWII, we Americans didn't destroy whole villages during occupation: the Germans did that.
German civilians put up very little resistance prior to Germany's surrender, and no real resistance after surrender. No car bombs (indeed, car bombs are really a more recent invention), little or no shooting of American occupiers.
Now, the Nazi Germans did carry out reprisals against civilians in occupied countries. Don't believe me: look up Lidice or Oradour-sur-Glane and educate yourself.
When I was growing up (I'm guessing I'm a bit older than you), Americans took some pride in being the "good guys", pride in not being like the Nazis or the Soviets. We used to be proud that the rest of the world looked to America as an example of a free democracy. That was before we decided to export "democracy" by means of torture and secret prisons and Big Brother-ish spying.
That was before we became mirror images of the totalitarian regimes we had been so proud to fight against.
Like I said, I'm probably bit older than you, "Sir Foxx", and in some way, I guess, luckier, even though I didn't grow up with a computer in the house, much less a PSP or an iPod in my pocket. But I did grow up in an America that had principles. In an America that stood against torture and secret prisons and warrantless searches and unchecked government power. In an America that really was, in some true way, "the land of the free and the home of the brave".
America is no longer the "land of the free" and it's certainly not the "home of the brave". Again, I don't blame you "Sir Foxx", anymore than a Roman of the Republic would have blamed a child who grew up under Caesars for thinking Augustus really was a god.
But trust me, Americans used to be brave. Not your sort of brave, which is just the bravado of the scared bully, of the totalitarian state: "we can bomb you, we can make your life a living hell, unless you do what we say".
Americans used to be brave in that we were willing to die for the liberties our Founding Fathers risked their lives to give us. We were willing to fight and die to protect the right of any knucklehead to criticise the President, because we knew that sometimes the President is a knucklehead.
We used to be brave enough to risk getting on a train or plane without being treated like convicts or slaves or cattle, without being searched by blandly rude security guards.
We used to be brave enough to "Live Free or Die", to say "Give me Liberty or give me Death". Now we Americans piss our pants and beg to put up with any indignity, and loss of freedom, for a little security.
Nineteen hijackers didn't do this to us. Saddam didn't do this to us. Osama didn't do this to us. Yes, one terrible day Osama and his hijackers killed a bunch of Americans and shocked us all.
But it wasn't Osama who surrendered our liberty and our principles and our decency. We've done that all on our own.
Again, it's not your fault, "Sir Foxx". I blame your teachers. They never taught you what it really means to be an American.
Yeah, we can make Iraq, in your words "a living hell for everyone". And we're busy doing it right here at home too.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
I've perused this whole thread for some indication of *what* specifically US forces could be doing better, but I only find some ad-hoc BS about US soldiers not using their heads or not getting training. For the most part, the savvy European soldiers are not getting killed in Iraq for one simple reason... they're not there. I submit the problem is not with the soldiers, but with the mission,
then you can't make babies anymore.
First of all, your statement is completely bogus. Americans employ the most highly trained and honed guerilla fighting teams...they are called the Rangers and Special Forces. They seem to have done an amazing job in Afganistan and Iraq.
Now, if you are saying that house to house urban combat is difficult while fighting guerillas...you would be correct. But, you have to ask why it is a problem. One of the problems, of course, are innocent civilians. Trust me, if the US didn't give a flying fuck about civilians, the US would just carpet bomb/firebomb the entire city or mini-nuke it. They wouldn't use expensive precision guided bombs and rockets in a populated area if the US didnt give a shit. That being said, fuckups happen, and civilians get killed sometimes, accidently. The difference between a US Soldier and an Iraqi Insurgent is that the Iraqi Insurrgent wants to blow up innocent iraqi civilians, such as those guys standing in line to get jobs.
If you have ever done a room entry...playing paintball...in a computer game...in real life with real guns...whatever...you know that walking into a room blind is dangerous. Knowing exactly how many people are in a room is VERY important. Knowing where they are is even MORE important. Any device...a wire camera...a mirror...is helpful to figure out what the tactical situation is in the room. Hopefully, a radar device would help you see who is carrying a gun and who isnt. It would also show you if any small people are in the room, huddled in the corner, who could be kids or a family.
American soldiers have amazing mastery of combat arms and techniques. They are well trained, and they know right from wrong. Any technological device which helps them do their job better is worth it.
So, radar that sees thru walls and can show soldiers 3-D images of your traitorous red-coat ass? I'll support it.
Does it cause cancer?
If your going to be doing 12 hours of
house checking, it may be nice to survive
the RADAR RADIATION experience down the road.
Or are they counting on the cancer from
the use of depleated uranium bullets to mask
the cancer from using the handheld radar device?
Wow, you sound kind of psycho when browsing at +1 threshhold :)
they call it the "underground"
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
Riiiiiiighhht.
Nice try there cowboy.
Yep, I never spell check.
More incorrect spellings can be found he
I'll probably be the one moderated troll or flamebait by this if anyone is - which is fine by me - but think of the absurdity of what you're saying. Should we ban bullets? The Nazis used them to kill prisoners! How about efficient highway systems (which I will admit are a rarity to begin with in the U.S.)? The Nazis used them to make troop movements more effective and transported some prisoners on them! We can't use the same technology and ideas as the Nazis!
I think it's you who need to bone up on your history. The reason there was very little German resistance after the war was due to my previous post. That and the fact that every citizen had to register under the Allied command.
Also, I think you forget the kind of Generals America had at that time, people like Patton(who was dead by the end of the war) who stated, "Kill them all, let God sort them out". Back then, the military did what needed to be done without the fear of being prosecuted like today.
You also forget General Curtis Lemay, who basically firebombed Japan back into the stone age and who stated that if the Americans had lost he would have been prosecuted as a war criminal.
War is dirty business, but the object is to win, no matter what. All the people who disagree with that either have never or will never face death at the hands of another.
"I don't which is worse, that everyone has a price, or that the price is always so low"--Hobbes
They don't largely. However, I never said that equipment plays a role in this - quite the opposite. It's not the equipment but the people using it that counts.
You only need to look back to Somalia and Vietnam and all of those silly films which turn those total military disasters into some sort of victory as to how much of a problem they have.
...
You have a consistent failing. You confuse the political with the miliary.
US troops were not defeated in Vietnam or Somalia. In Vietnam, Giap's seige of Khe San was a failure. Giap's Thet Offensive was also a failure. The Viet Cong guerilla force was virtually wiped out during Thet. The North Vietnamese were forced to the peace table and recognized South Vietnam and it's right to exist. We packed up and left, it was 1973. In 1975, years after our departure, North Vietnam launched a fairly conventional invasion of the South. Ironically with US air support the Source Vietnamese army probably could have defended itself. However the political situation in the US prevented such assistance, assistance we had promised. North Vietnam won the propoganda war, it successfully sowed doubt and confusion into the US public, however it did not win the guerilla war.
In Somalia, you confuse high casualties with defeat. The US did not fail to take the building, it did not fail to secure the occupants. The Rangers suffered far higher casualties than expected but they did reach the helicopter they were going for and they were not overrun or forced to surrender. Our departure from Somalia was a political decision.
I don't know, but guerilla warfare is a skill that involves using your brain. Inevitably you also come into contact with ordinary civilians in an urban environment as well, and you have to have at least some idea of what to do and to be able to get along with them
US Special Forces are highly trained in that regard. They were also quite successful in Vietnam and Afghanistan. I think your opening of "I don't know" summarizes your post well. You don't know the miliary or history. You display a pop-history shallow understanding of both.
I would suggest training their troops an awful lot better than they do and giving their soldiers something every soldier should have - soldiering skills! That's why a lot of American soldiers are dying in Iraq. Unlike, especially their British, counterparts they just haven't got it in that kind of environment. Pure and simple. It's a people thing.
You confuse guerilla warfare with peace keeping operations. Soldiering skills are not where US troops are to be found lacking. Peacekeeping skills are where European troops have better training, not in soldiering. Whether this difference matters is open to debate. The problem in Iraq was due to a bad political decision, dissolving the Iraqi army. Perhaps I am mistaken but I don't think that the military was in favor of that one. The Iraqi army's high level leadership should have been removed but lower levels and the common soldiers should have been initially employed for security, under US command.
First of all, your statement is completely bogus. Americans employ the most highly trained and honed guerilla fighting teams...they are called the Rangers and Special Forces.
;-). That just shows the folly of relying totally on technical devices for this sort of thing, and your first sentence there tells you why you're getting blown up. It's the attitude that's given off.
They're soldiering skills are shite and their training is bollocks. I would take the SAS and SBS any day because their training is so good and so what you need in a combat environment. You also need practice, which they have had in NI and people like the Israelis have all the time. The amount of reps you can do in a minute and reliance on strict forms of training is where most yanks fall foul. The SAS and SBS are simply hard clever bastards and they do not fight via any rules. You also need the patience of a saint and the ability to sit in a hole for hours on end simply watching a place. Blips on a radar screen, although helpful, can only tell you so much. That's my point.
Trust me, if the US didn't give a flying fuck about civilians, the US would just carpet bomb/firebomb the entire city or mini-nuke it.
They're doing that right now.
The difference between a US Soldier and an Iraqi Insurgent is that the Iraqi Insurrgent wants to blow up innocent iraqi civilians, such as those guys standing in line to get jobs.
And why are they doing that? Who's doing that? What's on the grapevine? That's the sort of intelligence you get from soldiering and people skills when your soldiers are on their feet and not racing through villages in Hummers and helicopters. That's the sort of itelligence you need, not blips on a radar screen.
Knowing where they are is even MORE important. Any device...a wire camera...a mirror...is helpful to figure out what the tactical situation is in the room.
People tend to move around......
American soldiers have amazing mastery of combat arms and techniques. They are well trained, and they know right from wrong.
You need more than a mastery of arms and equipment. You're proving my point pretty well here.
So, radar that sees thru walls and can show soldiers 3-D images of your traitorous red-coat ass? I'll support it.
I'm glad you think that is me and that I'm wearing a red coat, and I hope your soldiers believe it
Dependence on equipment is bad
Yes, however so it ignoring technology. More importantly, who said US troops will not train to conduct operations with and without the high tech equipment. Mechanical and electronic failures are an important part of current training. I don't see anyone indicating this is about to change.
Mod parent up.
a y#Brief_history LCDsi cation_gp.htm#The%20Defence%20Industry Flat Panel Loudspeakers (and many others)
I'll add to that list; the automotive industry is full of them. First of all there's the night-vision cameras (arguably invented by the Germans pre WWII), radar parking aids, and heads-up displays.
At home you can cook using a microwave oven (invented by a researcher at Raytheon), which probably itself uses a Liquid Crystal Display (much of the development of which was done at the UK Radar Research Establishment at Malvern, formerly the Army Radar Establishment). Or maybe you'd like to listen to some music on a set of flat-panel loudspeakers (offshoot of research done by the British DERA into quiet 'stealth' helicopters).
A list like this could go on practically forever; in fact it's hard to find a product -- any product -- which hasn't been touched by military R&D at some point in its history. To be honest, dollar for dollar, I think it is quite possible that the American public (and other countries too, but particularly the U.S. because we consume so much technology) gets as much if not more out of the money spent on military research by contractors, than we do out of pure research at universities. Not to say that pure research doesn't have it's place, and is almost always inventive in nature, military research is usually directed and innovative, and produces useful devices in relatively short timescales.
Take a look around your home, unless you live on an Amish farm, you're probably surrounded by things, the initial development of which were paid for with defense dollars.
References:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ir.htm Infrared and Night Vision Scopes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_displ
http://www.mod.uk/issues/diversification/diversif
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Tell you what. Instead of just sitting there in your armchair, sipping on your Bud Light and cheering every little bit of propaganda that fits your world view, why don't you enroll? Why don't you go kick that ass you want everyone to kick for you? I'm sure you would find out firsthand how well taken care of your unit is. I hear you might want to bring your own body armor though. Just as a precaution, you know. In case those filthy Iraqis steal yours. Cuz, you know, the US of A would never fail to give its valiant protectors of freedom everything they need and want.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Well consider the military's full repertoire. They could have easily turned Iraq into a parking lot and killed EVERYONE. Or perhaps more realistically, they could have bombed the entire populace into submission, as well as any neighboring countries exhibiting poor border control. Millions could have been killed. Compare this to what they have actually done, and from a percentage standpoint they look a lot more like a defensive force to me.
Given the power and dominance of the US Military, things could be so so much worse. But even with the US current aggressive leadership, its behavior is unbelieveably restrained when viewed in a global or historical context.
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
Anyone remember reading about this in Tom Clancey's book "Rainbow Six"???
The characters called in a Tricorder
Interesting isn't it? Somthing like this described in a book from several years ago, and now showing up public... Makes one wonder how long they've had it for.
Forget the tinfoil hat, get me the tinfoil body suit...
Cheers,
Xyst
> Anyone remember reading about this in Tom Clancey's book "Rainbow Six"???
Clancy based those devices (which were heartbeat sensors, if I recall correctly) on the DKL LifeGuard, which Sandia Labs proved to be pretty much an expensive box of useless electronic components.
Could be new business opportunity for the paranoid to sell metallic wall coverings or paints which block these wavelengths. Would have to be non-toxic or one could sued under the lead-paint statutes.
War is dirty business, but the object is to win, no matter what.
And, the object of a hammer is to pound nails.
But winning battles, and pounding nails, isn't a useful objective by itself. The war in Iraq is being run by a bunch of nitwits who think you can drop some lumber, nails, and carpenters off at a job site and come back six months later to a well-constructed house. Or, perhaps an apartment building, or garage, or a warehouse full of furniture. No-one is sure -- hopefully if we just start pounding nails, and the design will work itself out. Maybe if we let the lumber hold elections and draw up the plans, we'll get what we were looking for.
Try not to compare Rangers to SF. The Rangers are essentially crack infantry shock troops. They use Infantry tactics, and mostly Infantry equipment. The Army Special Forces are guerrila operators.
Ranger School and SF Q Course are two different beings, from what I've been told by people who have done both. Ranger School is physically demanding. SF Q Course is primarily mentally demanding, with enough physical demands thrown in to amplify any mental deficiencies. Forgetting the team's SAW at an ambush point in Ranger School will just get you a 0 for that section (and a hell of a lot of verbal abuse, flutter kicks and pushups for your team). SF school, well, the instructor might ask, "hey, where's your SAW?" when your 10 K away from that last point, and leave it to you, Team Leader, to figure out what to do about it and still make your next objective...
SF is designed to engage the locals to increase its force capabilities when needed.
Hmm... M1 tanks use Chobam armor, a British invention. USMC flies Harriers, a British invention (ok, AV8B was made by McDonaldsDouglas). M1 tank uses a 120mm smoothbore main gun, licensed from a German company. M1 came about because the German Leopard tanks modernized western tank design in the early 70s, especially comapred to M48 and M60 tanks deployed by the US at the time. Hmm... British troops use M16s? Yeah, right. The 105MM howitzer used by the US Army is a British design.
You are making Rumsfeld out to be some genius rather than the complete failure that he is. The reason we so quickly took Iraq was because Saddam outsmarted Rumsfeld despite warnings from many experts including military commanders. And I dont know how you come up with the US using Guerrilla tactics. Blitzkrieg V.2 is a more accurate description and it seems Rumsfeld has borrowed much more than blitzkrieg from the Nazis.
Saddam left his regular army out in front to fight but pulled his republican guard back into hiding, knowing they couldn't match the US military equipment. His plan was for forcing the US into a Guerrilla warfare where technology doesn't matter so much. He must have seen Blackhawk down. Instead of learning from Somalia, the first gulf war, and in fact, Afghanistan, he chose to carpet bomb the locals instead of enlisting them to help out.
Rumsfeld was warned they didn't have enough troops, he was warned that Saddam would retreat and use gorilla warfare and a insurgency. He was told he should negotiate surrenders and enlist the help of local generals who felt no great loyalty to Saddam. He chose to ignore them all. He wanted to prove his method was better. Well we see now that it wasn't. The decision to invade was a failure on Bush's part but the failures of the invasion and occupation are the fault of Rumsfeld.
The original poster is correct, the US military does generally lack the skills in insurgency, occupation and Guerrilla warfare. They are great when it comes to blowing things up but not when it comes to getting the local people on your side. They go in with a cocky attitude that everyone should bow down to us for saving them from themselves and if you dont bow, you must be the enemy. They made progress but let it slip when they allowed things like Abu Ghraib and bombed wedding parties. The special forces tend to be better about that as evidence in Afghanistan.
You can call it flamebait all you like now, but I don't think people getting killed is funny.
Yet another military-derived technology we use...before GPS, LORAN (LOng RAnge Navigation)was the primary method for nautical navigation; even with GPS, it's still extensively used in flight and nautical circles. LORAN was derived from British WW II radar navigation experiments. After the war, American researches adapted it for civilian use.
See the Wikipedia info...
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Hmm, the military has no problem sensing through concrete wall. You can aim a tank at it and fire, or you can simply drive through the wall, but ordinary mortals may prefer using a window - that works with any thickness of concrete.
Oh well, what the hell...
Which aircraft would those be? There are no aircraft in the USMC inventory that doesn't have manufacturer support. AV-8B? Sea and Super Stallions? F-18s? How about the Huey's and Cobras the Corps still uses? All have a spare parts supply chain from their manufacturers. Corps aircraft tend to be older than Navy or USAF birds, but they're very well maintained. Hell, Bell Aircraft is putting the Huey and Cobra line back into production. I'm ex-Navy, an airdale, and I've worked with Corps aviation units. Your whole story smells of bullshit.
That sounds like an exageration. Go back to the hillbilly armor thing...the press makes that out to be some disgrace, but there's a long history of American troops using brilliant methods to equip themselves until the supply chain could catch up to their needs. Military planners didn't forsee the dangers of IEDs and vulnerability to the Hummers.....so the troops took matters into their own hands, by using scrap steel to armor up their vehicles. In previous wars, soldiers have done similar things, especially to thinly-armored explosion prone tanks of early WW II.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Well...there is a lot of overlap actually, from what I understand:
p ecial_Forces
"The 75th Ranger Regiment --also known as the United States Army Rangers-- is a Special Operations Force of the United States Army Special Operations Command (USASOC); with headquarters in Fort Benning, Georgia. The Regiment is a flexible, highly trained and rapidly deployable light infantry force with specialized skills that enables it to be employed against a variety of conventional and special operations targets.
The force specializes in Airborne, Air Assault, light-infantry and Direct Action operations, conducting raids, infiltration and exfiltration by air, land or sea, airfield seizure, recovery of personnel and special equipment, and support of general purpose forces (GPF) among others. Each Ranger Battalion can deploy anywhere in the world with 18 hours' notice."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army_Rangers
"The United States Army Special Forces --also known as the Green Berets or simply Special Forces (capitalized)-- is a Special Operations Force of the U.S. Army trained for unconventional warfare and special operations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_S
... to reduce losses in urban combat.
Losses to which side?
In communist Russia, the walls watch YOU.
"Cats like plain crisps"
America recently tends to throw huge amounts of people and money at problems and sort out the results later. There usually is nothing refined or subtle about it.
They learned that in WW2 when they sent Shermans ("Tommycookers") against Panzers. Interviews with surviving Panther and Tiger crew members and commanders indicate that they couldn't beleive that a country as rich and powerful as America would field such bad tanks. ("You got 3? We'll make 20!")
I guess the American military has the last say now.
I know all about my Jamaican crime rates....And I know I'm just saying WILL THEY NEED A WARRANT! I agree with giving up some privacies but you dont need people outside looking on you having a bath or having sex while your unaware!
Saw a similar unit in the Clint Eastwood pic "In the Line of Fire" when USSS TSD guys were checking the hotel suite the Prez was supposed to stay in.
I'm just waiting for the QST build-it article to come out, hi hi
de WL7BCT
I think the difference might be that this time, you started the war, and the 'enemy' are defending their own homes.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
I'm no structural engineer, but I know that concrete is extremely rigid--this is why steel-reinforced concrete is used in construction. The steel is more flexible, and helps hold together the concrete even when it cracks under stress. And I know that something very rigid is excellent at transmitting vibrations. So "seeing" through twelve inches of concrete (even reinforced concrete) should be much, much easier than "seeing" through, say, a sandwich of two five-inch reinforced concrete walls with a layer of something more flexible (e.g. rubber) between. As long as the two rigid layers are completely separate, there should be little or no transmission between them. I bet someone who was a structural engineer would be able to come up with a reliable way to defeat this (without sacrificing safety) in fairly short order.
It's a neat idea, though, and I hope it finds applications in (as others have suggested) search-and-rescue and elsewhere.
...laser pointers and airplanes have turned people into superman - giving the ability to fly and have laser vision.
No, no, no. Having a device that does something does not make you superhuman - having a brain that does something DOES make you superhuman.
or else!
If it's a good invention.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
Is this a typo?
See the picture in the article, left-bottom, on the certificate, there it says "2006", and just below that "2Q06".
What what does THAT mean?
Hivemind harvest in progress..
Anyone remember Tom Swift? TD
By the time Washington crossed the Delaware, he was hardly a guerilla fighter. His troops wore uniforms, drilled, and fought in formation.
And guerilla fighting today is seldom done by people worthy of respect. Giving an AK 47 to a ten year old and telling to fight or you'll kill his family is not the act of a freedom fighter. It's plain old savagery, enabled by the light weight of the AK. And it's what you mostly see in the world's remaining trouble spots.
I don't disagree with you here. My point was to counter the statement that the US has always "sucked" at guerilla warfare. You are dead on about being in the opposite role here, but I still find it ironic that we cry "foul" about an enemy (the Taliban in Afghanastan) which appeared to have no formal uniform or organization, when that is exactly what gave us our advantage during our Revolutionary War. We still have (to my civillian knowledge) the most advanced, able, and experienced combat force in the world. I don't think our technology is a lame attempt to compensate for some weakness in our armed forces. I believe that technology is what has allowed us to do with hundreds or thousands what would have taken tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands not too long ago. Just look at the fatality figures for WWI and WWII and compare them to casualties in the current string of conflicts, and (without trivializing the value of any single life in any conflict) you will see that we have lost far fewer than during any comparable engagement. Regardless of where any reader falls on these recent conflicts, they must at least cede that point.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
You aren't really providing a solution, here.
Hey, the PDP-10 was a nice machine. But no way would it fit into a ladies "hambag." A PDP-10 only fit in a room.
Now when I was in the military, our on-board computers were *analog* - servos, gears, integrators, etc. Even so, they managed to keep track of our position within a few miles on a 14 hour flight, and provide a very useful display on the TACCO's console.
The only good weather is bad weather.
He routed sleeping Hessians out of their beds in the middle of night after the regulars had marched off because he didn't have enough men to face them in the open field and then ran away before the regulars could hear about it and respond. . .in formation?
KFG
I'm going to try to not debate the morality of the current Iraq war... But the contention that we now expect magical technology to win our wars is utter crap. However, we do have technology that we know how to employ very well. When you have good technology, you use it. But we aren't dumb enough to think it is a "magical" solution. America has long been considered one of the best countries at fighting guerilla warfare. Britain and Australia also fit that characterization.
As to technological fixes... you use your strengths, and that is one of ours. The enemy uses theirs - IED technology, terror, and masquerading as civilians in defiance of the laws of war.
Our soldiers have the best body armor in the world. Our precision weapons allowed us to inflict maximum damage Saddam's regime with minimum (historically) collateral damage. They allowed us to defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan with ground forces consisting of a few hundred special forces members and CIA paramilitary folks, armed with laser designators, GPS's and radios, and importantly, a large force of - you guessed it - friendly (or well paid) guerillas. We have lots of other dramtically superior technology, some of it well suited for guerilla war.
But America is not stupid enough to believe that technology is everything. Ask any marine about how he was trained. As any army grunt. Ask a SEAL or "green beret." We train our professional military very well, and have an tradition of field improvisation (including, during Iraq II, the quick adoption of practice 2000lb bombs - 2000lb of concrete - for destruction of tanks and other vehicles parked too close to civilians).
Iraq is a tough but small war, which we know how to win. The enemy, can only win by defeating our will through propaganda and psy-war tactics that our feckless press and too many political leaders are suckers for.
We have hardly forgotten the lessons for winning guerilla wars. We have fought in and won many guerilla wars over the centuries. I am not aware of any war in which we were defeated by guerillas Since someone will mention it, this includes Vietnam. The "guerillas" (Viet Cong) were utterly defeated and destroyed by the end of 1968 (according to our military and their commander. Giap).
The only good weather is bad weather.
What about Vietnam and Somalia? In Vietnam, we won the war in-country by doing something a little better than what you said: providing safety for civilians, by pacifying large amounts of territory. Civilians rarely want to do anything other than get back to normal life. This was completed by 1972, to the extent that the US ambassador could drive around the country with no escort.
Vietnam was ultimately lost by a failure of will in the United States, and was lost to a massive armored invasion from another country - not to indigenous guerillas. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Details (once again) available on request.
Somalia was a case of mission creep (and an Al Qaeda ambush) and loss of will. US forces were introduced by GHWB for one purpose: protecting the distribution of humanitarian aid. Clinton extended the mission to include actively participating in the anarchy by snatching one of the malefaactors. At the same time, the administration refused the on-scene commander's request for adequate technology - M1 tanks as an urban reaction force - one which would have saved most of those lost in "Black Hawk Down." Our subsequent retreat (cited by Al Qaeda as one reason they are ultimately going to win) was simply, again, a loss of will.
The biggest military problem for the US since World War II has been the difficulty of maintaining the will to fight extended wars. Given support from the homeland, the military will eventually win whatever we get into (although they may stumble around a bit through tactics space until they hit the right ones).
We are showing every sign of losing our will again - this time in Iraq. Whether Iraq was the right or wrong war to fight, losing it will have deadly ramifications for our ability to fight Al Qaeda.
The only good weather is bad weather.
How about the Lord Kitchener poster campaign for WWI "Your country needs you".
I don't doubt other countries had/have similar.
UNIX: 'cuz you can tattoo it on your knuckles!
Woooooooow, they're serving the "good" Kool-Aid and brownies at the recruitment centers these days, aren't they?
The "guerillas" (Viet Cong) were utterly defeated and destroyed by the end of 1968 (according to our military and their commander. Giap).
Dude, Giap wasn't Viet Cong, he was NVA, North Vietnamese regular army. You don't even know who the Viet Cong were, do you?
They were South Vietnamese.
KFG
it we can see who is in the room and where they are, why even go inside, just hook it up to one of those SDI lasers and ad jim morrisson said, noone gets out alive
Regardless, Giap was still in a position to know the effectiveness of the VC and they were indeed completely spent after the Tet offensive.
Folk songs.
Medieval paintings and tapestries.
Organic vegetables.
Shaker furniture.
Janet Jackson's nipple.
Ordinary window glass.
Monica Lewinsky.
Cotton Towels.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
When I got out, I was making about $1200 a month. That doesn't sound like much, but add to that free food, free housing, free travel (standby on military transports), the right to shop at the PX, and military discounts from lots of places...
Our military is paid well. They're not always paid in a timely manner, which sometimes causes problems for families... but they are paid well.
I don't think the Tsunami is a great example for the US military or US in general. They were generally regarded as arriving late, leaving early and generally not putting in anything like the resources other much smaller nations did. For example, Australian citizens donated A$1,000,000,000 - more than the US government and there's only 24,000,000 of us.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I don't know. $1200 per month seems very low for someone as highly skilled as a professional marine. Compare the job to something like unskilled construction work, then to skilled construction work. I doubt plumbing requires as much training as military service, yet it probably pays signifigantly more.
May the Maths Be with you!
Although I can't say about the pet rock, there is a connection having to do with window glass. The production of window glass was revolutionized by a process in which the molten glass is floated and cools on top of liquid metal, usually either tin or lead, which was in part developed by Henry Bessemer. Bessemer began his career as an inventor with the steel process that bears his name, the original purpose of which was improving the steel in artillery for the British military. There is apparently some argument as to whether Bessemer invented the process or just bankrolled and commercialized it, although it's his name that I've always heard in connection to the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bessemer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_glass
An indirect connection I admit, but I'm sure if you dug deeper that there are more.
As for folk music and Janet Jackson's nipple, I think the issue is less assigning credit than one of assigning blame...
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I sure loved them when I was a kid. Who knows if they'll hold up. I kinda doubt they will.
You can even download them here
Man, you really need that seminar!
Dude, YOU don't know who the VC were!
The VC were *always* commanded by the North Vietnamese. The separation was primarily for political reasons, so the North could maintain the fiction that the war in the south was an indigenous rebellion, which it certainly was not. Giap's biographies verify this. After 1968, with the destruction of the VC in the three offensives (the first and most famous of which was the "Tet Offensive"), the war was almost totally against NVA.
The war in South Vietnam was always against the North. That's why the linch pin was the Ho Chi Minh trail. Asked how the US could have won the war in the South, Giap stated that an invasion of Laos blocking the trail would have been sufficient. Giap also stated that the government of the North was ready to end the war (in the SOUTH) after the Tet defeat, until it saw how that defeat was spun by media in the US as a great victory for the VC. The North then decided to win by psychological warfare using the left in the US, and in fact succeeded in that tactic.
Many of the VC were south Vietnamese. After the Geneva accords, there was a period when people in Vietnam could choose which country they wanted to live in - the Communist dictatorship of the north or the capitalist dictatorship of the south. A large number of people moved. But the remnants of the Viet Minh in the South were ordered to stay in the south to become what was later called the VC.
You may also be interested to know that the PRG (the political arm of the VC) was also commanded, from its formation, by the north. It was created to form an additional communist organization, supposedly representing interests in the south, in the "peace talks."
Both of these organizations were classic "fronts" - they pretended to represent or fight for interests in the nouth, while actually being controlled by the north.
The only good weather is bad weather.
Ah, a great retort if I had been arguing for the necessity of the war. Nice try...
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
Hogwash, I can't believe this was deemed "insightful" by you folks. All in all the argument is severely atrophic in nature. The fact that fear and greed drive most technology does not mean it is the only method. It simply means it is the predominate one you know. The reason this has happened is because the Republic has become infested with rats (Republic-rats). Some of the fattest rats in the pack are those involved in the feeding frenzy at the military pork barrel. The US spends more than the rest of the top ten spenders combined. There have been many times these rats were caught in their obscene milking of the taxpayer, I have no doubt most instances are never discovered. Enough is enough and too much is too much!
The poster makes the point that many if not most technology advances are driven by war. I do not doubt this. I do however take issue with the assumption that it is the only way technologys advance or that it is the most efficant method. The fact that it is done in a very exclusive and closed manner with far less chance for the efficiencys and synergies that are found in more inclusive open environments greatly reduces its efficacy. Take for comparison the difference between closed and open source programming environments. The motivation of open source programmers has not been not destroyed because their efforts were not directed entirely by fear or money lust. Now apply these models to science and technology in general. I believe you would find that the model transfers well. This because many people pursue these efforts for internal satisfaction, many for the respect of peers, many for the fame, a place in history.
There are motivators other than fear and greed. They are more apt to be approached logically, thus apt to be more efficant than fear, and they are more honorable thus vastly more trustable than greed. After you get finished rattling off your favorite Rush Limbaugh and FOX "news" talking points, sit back and read what you just wrote objectively to see is it really holds water before you post it to the world. The same applies to those who mod such up manure as "insightful", think for yourselves dag-gone-it.
Matthew
But that's $1200 a month completely disposable income. I knew a lot of 19- and 20-year-old Marines who drove brand new Mustangs and such. (A frivolous way to spend it, I know, but still...)
I suppose you don't believe I lived in a condemned building, either, but it happened. My barracks at MCAS New River was condemned because the asbestos insulation on the pipes was crumbling, but due to overcrowding in the other student barracks and a delay in the construction of a new building, they had people living in the condemned one WHILE THEY WERE RIPPING OUT THE ASBESTOS. Of course everybody blamed Clinton then, but from what I've heard, not a damn thing has changed under Bush. The budget may have increased, but so has operational overcommittment.
The American government spent $950 million US (1.2 billion Aussie) and the American people chipped in another billion (and, incidentally, the navy was there flying search and rescue immediately and we had boots on the ground in three days, which is on the same timetable as our *domestic* disaster relief plan for federal assistance despite the necessity of crossing that tiny little obstacle known to locals as The Pacific Ocean). I'm not denigrating the Aussie contribution in the least -- America, Japan, Australia, and India all deserve massive props for getting the relief effort organized as quickly as they did and for fronting truly massive amounts of resources. But, in recognition that there *will* be a next time, would it kill you to not spit in the face of the country that lead the world in humanitarian contributions and singlehandedly accounted for a quarter of the total? I mean, its not like we're going to stop giving out money just because we get grief over it (we sent what we could to Iran after the earthquake and got the usual Great Satan line -- thanks guys, a pleasure as always!) but some gratitude just once in a blue moon would be nice and make the next massive aid effort an easier sell in Congress.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Sure.
And what did they do after Katrina? The usual: shoot people for stealing a banana.
Rescue people my ass.
And what if there's nothing behind the door until it is being opened?
First it was warp drive engines thats called hyperdrive. Now this. Soon enough we'll have a tricorder. If this works out, then we'll easily be able to find Osama.
My Gawd WTF...