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Dell Protests 'Not Wintel's Lapdog'
An anonymous reader writes "C|Net is reporting on a protestation by Dell's CTO, Kevin Kettler, who says quite loudly that they are not Microsoft and Intel's puppet." From the article: "Essentially, Kettler argued, Dell was responsible for selecting, if not necessarily developing, many of the technologies in today's desktop computers and servers. Among standards for which he said Dell deserves credit are 802.11 wireless networking, PCI Express communications technology and 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors."
Isn't this like Pinocchio claiming that he isn't Geppetto's puppet?
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
He's taking credit for 64 bit extensions. Uh didnt AMD do that, NOT Intel, and therefore NOT Dell?
Isn't that like MS innovating?
Um, Dell, you don't use AMD chips in any of your products. (I'm not counting Alienware here, since they were purchased long after AMD64 and EM64T came out.) AMD was the first company to release 64-bit extensions to IA32.
Dell also had nothing to do with IA64, considering Intel's primary partner for that was Dell's competitor HP.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
What about apple and Airport, built into the ibook, released in 1999. I do not believe ANYONE had a builtin 802.11b solution back then, except for apple. (there was 802.11b, just as a pc card).
In fact, the ibooks were delayed because they had yet to pass FCC testing when they were announced at MacWorld.
802.11 - IEEE with netgear dlink et al
Pci-e - nvidia and ati
intel x84-64 - AMD
And most importantly, it could be argued that early adopters were the ones who were most responsible, which is a market share Dell is not known for.
$sys$droids
Apple Exec Claims "We're Not IBM's Lapdog" And they've proven that. If Dell's CTO wants some crediblity on his statement, maybe he should try to make public moves that show it.
they have proven they are Intel and Microsofts' bitch however.
So, Intel develops PCI express and [the version of] x86-64 [which Dell uses], and is part of the 802.11 development process.
But Dell were the ones who.. um.. repackaged and resold them to consumers! And, y'know, Dell didn't have to do that! Dell could have just decided to stop making computers altogether and instead just sold ice cream. So Dell really deserves the credit here. Intel creates, Dell... "selects".
So in other words, sure, Dell isn't Intel's lapdog. They're just Intel's marketing wing.
Hey, didn't Apple get some or all of those technologies (802.11, PCI express) in shipping products before Dell did? Just curious, my memory sucks...
So I'm not as up on CPUs as I once was, but I am curious about Dell saying that they should get credit for 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors. Didn't AMD bring the 64bit game to the Big League level? I thought that Intel were the ones rushing to try and keep up on that front.
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
Of course you're not a wittle doggie woggie, are you Kettler whettler? Now who wants a treat? Who wants a treat? Good boy!
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
Delusions of Relevance.
"64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors", and here all this time I thought Intel ripped AMD's 64-bit spec for x86.
Dell doesn't really need to be defensive. They do one thing, and they do it really well: Dell builds cheap computers. There's a lot of value there, the quality of their product and support notwithstanding.
Sure, they don't really do R&D. But they don't need to - they have Intel, Microsoft, Lexmark, and the rest of the OEM partners to do that. They are a gateway to the market, not a market-maker. That's their niche. It's a really big one, and they do it really well. After all, they do make billions a year. And unlike Microsoft, they do it without being a monopoly.
The ironic part is that Dell has always been very up-front about the fact that they do no research, pioneer no technologies, and create nothing new. Dell is all about execution, not creation: they manufacture devices based upon the technologies of others, deliver them to consumers, and do it with very low overhead.
Which is a perfectly fine thing for them to do. It's not heroic work, but neither is being a plumber, and we still like to have them around.
But I have to admit that my respect for any plumber would go down if he started trying to convince me that he's the one that actually discovered the Bernoulli Principle.
the x86 64 bit extensions were an AMD invention, this claim is as hilarious as the one that Microsoft invented the internet. Dell was not even selling AMD back then!
So they want credit on the adoption of a standard that people have been demanding for ages?.. That is hilarious.
Dell could not be any more in bed with Microsoft and Intel that if Microsoft and Intel OWNED them..
Oh, wait.... Umm.. never mind.
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
The whole article is very silly; who cares about Dell's market clout -- it seems to be like Apple made a much bigger impact on the tech sector during its dark days -- releasing USB on the legacy-free iMac, a popular 802.11 implementation with non fixed length passwords (LEAP I believe?) .. oh... and uh... the iPod!
Why does my Dell Inspiron laptop of three years ago still beats Dell's current offerings? In fact, if I want a better laptop than what I got today for the same price that I paid three years ago, I would have to go with Alienware. I think my next laptop will probably be a dual-booting MacBook.
But overall, Dell tends to follow Intel's lead and isn't setting the agenda, said Gartner analyst Steve Kleynhans. "They tend to get involved at the point where technology is getting standardized, and they popularize it. They get it out to a lot of people," he said. "But I don't see them as being the driver of a technology or the one that sets the direction."
Right so Intel already made the decision and Dell goes and figures out how to package it and market it. Don't most subordinates do the same?
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I can order that Debian GNU/Linux-preinstalled Dell desktop when?
Help us build a better map!
Dell is Intel's best customer. Intel bends over backwards seven different ways to keep them happy. Intel will give Dell what they want, or Dell will build AMD systems. There's been several times when rumors of Dell selling AMD based systems. Shortly after that, Dell quashes the rumor and announces a major new partnership with Intel.
Isn't this like Pinocchio claiming that he isn't Geppetto's puppet?
I want a new computer.
On www.dell.ca, I selected a Dimension 3100 - it's all that I need in a general purpose PC. I clicked on the "Customize it!" button. And it seems that I can't get it without Windows. (Not sure if that link will work, it set a few cookies in Firefox.) Furthermore, I have serious issues with any technology company sufficiently ignorant to run IIS.
Though I've always liked Dell hardware, Pinocchio gets no sale from me.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
64bit extensions to the IA32 instruction set. No one here is claiming that AMD or intel developed the first 64bit processor.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Among standards for which he said Dell deserves credit are 802.11 wireless networking, PCI Express communications technology and 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors.
The article went on to say Dell deserves credit for developing the Internet, two-button mouse, and sliced bread.
-William Brendel
I've never seen an option to get Windows in 64bits on the Dell site.
You didn't look very hard. My Precision 470 came with XP64:
Important: Not all current applications and/or peripherals are compatible with 64-bit and may not function properly. Be sure to verify compatibility with all application and peripheral vendors prior to purchasing a Dell Precision platform with a 64-bit operating system.
Genuine Windows® XP Professional SP2 with media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional SP2 without media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional x64 w/ media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional x64 w/o media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 No Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 with Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 64bit No Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 64bit with Media
Their innovation is inserting cards into sockets, connecting cables, using screwdriver and putting label onto their "product".
The blurb at the top of the page isn't in context. Dell is saying they pushed Intel to use 802.11b instead of HomeRF, that they asked for 64 bit extensions in their processors and pushed for PCI Express.
"We don't agree on that one, Dick - I'm sure no one here in the stadium does, so let's go up to the booth for a quick moment and see what Zandy, our replay commentator, has to say."
"Well, Bob, we're seeing the same footage as the refs down on the field, and they seem to be simply making sure they all have the same opinion. Caution is good. Our view was blocked from up here, but on the tape, you can clearly see that Dell never had control of the ball, and there doesn't seem to be anyt...wait... - there's the ruling! No innovation by Dell! The refs are in complete agreement too - back to you Bob!"
In related news, Al Gore protested that he was, in fact, not Bill Clinton's vice president. Mr. Gore went on record by further saying that he is personally responsible for such innovations as the "internet" and "global warming".
Wow, they should really think about using a newer version of RedHat / Fedora. I mean even 5.2 is light years less awful!
HomeRF (Intel) vs 802.11 (Dell)
DDR (Dell) vs RAMBUS (Intel)
Itanium (Intel) vs x64 (Dell)
Sounds to me like Dell always follows Intel, unless Intel's choice is too risky. The last item is an excelent example. Itanium is risky so Dell wanted nothing of that. On the other hand, using non-Intel processors is risky so Dell just waited until Intel brought out 64bit x86 processors.
Dell isn't Intel's puppet. Dell is simply run by cowards and, most of the time, Wintel is the safest choice. Dell will follow wherever Intel leads, unless it's out on a limb.
Dell is the worlds biggest mom and pop computer store.
They take off the shelf parts and put them into a case. Nothing wrong with that but they really don't make computers they assemble them.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
If they wanted 802.11 and 64 bit extensions and PCI Express support, but chose to push Intel for those technologies, I suppose that supports their premise - they're not a lapdog, they're a dog that pulls on the leash.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
No their argument is that by choosing which technologies to include support for, even when the market was not already demanding them, they have made them successful. Apple, for example, may do some R&D and provide technologies standard on its laptops, but since they're usually proprietary, and so little of the market is Apple, they often are of limited success. PC makers often duplicate the useful ones in an open way. Dell would argue it chooses which of the knockoffs to succeed.
It's a lame argument, but to a suit, it makes sense. Choosing which finish product to propogate is not quite as helpful as funding and partipating in the development, but to a suit those are just "expenses".
No, Apple was late to the game with PCI Express. Dell could very well have been the first OEM to ship a desktop with it; but it was destined to be the standard no matter what Dell had to say about the matter.
Now if Dell ships computers with ONLY PCI Express slots, forcing add-in board makers to move their legacy PCI boards (TV tuners, WiFi cards, etc,) to PCI Express, THEN Dell can claim some leadership. (As Apple did with USB.)
802.11? That's a joke, right? Apple pushed that one, and Dell was late to the game with making it standard on their laptops.
I can see Dell having a major influence on adding AMD's 64-bit extensions to Intel processors though. Dell sells enough server hardware that Intel would be very brave indeed to ignore a Dell request on server features. I'm not saying, and I don't think the OP or the quoted CTO is saying, that Dell invented the AMD 64-bit extensions. Only that Dell was pivotal in convincing Intel to adopt them. Dell canned Itanium, and was probably ready to sign a deal with AMD for Opterons before Intel caved and put AMD64 into Xeons. Moving that to the desktop line is just a nice bonus.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
RTFA folks, the Dell guy in the article is not claiming that Dell inventied WiFi, x86-64 or anything like that. They're claiming that by virtue of their throwing their weight behind a technology, they can be the catalyst to make standards actually be useful. In many ways I tend to agree. It's pretty clear to me that Dell has huge sway over Intel these days. Against MSFT? I'm not too sure.
"Dell's CTO, Kevin Kettler, who says quite loudly that they are not Microsoft and Intel's puppet."
Fair enough, then how come I cannot get a dual opteron with ultra320 SCSI and a linux disrto of my choice?
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
...but he's talking about those technologies from a business perspective.
Let's have a look at PCI Express. Early in 2004 it had competition from PCI-X - PCI extended - however, Dell here are discussing the implications of swapping from PCI to PCIe. Now, at the time, PCI-X was seen as an interim measure, but Dell skipped it, instead opting to use PCIe across their desktop range. See, they didn't 'invent' it, but a big company like Dell deciding to run with a specific technology is going to have an impact. No doubt we'll probably see the same with ExpressCard, which seems to be standard on pretty much all Dell laptops released since Fall last year - point me in the direction of another manufacturer who's committed to ExpressCard and not still releasing PC card stuff - HP? Lenovo? Fujitsu? Toshiba?
Right, 64-bit extensions. Again, they didn't invent it, but I know that they had an instrumental role in convincing Intel (who needs 64-bit computing?) to add EMT 64 extensions to the Xeon range. That might have been partly forced by Dell's customers asking for 64-bit availability, but you cannot deny that with a big player like Dell dumping out 64-bit Xeons, it did give the market a huge kick up the arse - and one that I'm pretty convinced Intel wouldn't have done on their own. Remember, they stubbornly sat on their hands for ages insisting point blank that 64-bit was not the way to go and that if you wanted it, you had to buy Itaniums (*shudder*).
Wireless? The only evidence I can find that supports this is that Dell were the first company to offer an 802.11b wireless card in a desktop config. I don't for once think that drove any kind of market force as it was an option on the Dimension desktop line, but his points in the article that they stopped Intel marketing that awful HomeRF standard might be justified.
So it's not really 100% bullshit - the guy has some valid points. Yes Dell has helped promote a couple of standards over the years - USB 2 first appeared on Dells, Centrino laptops first appeared as Dells, they were second (behind Apple) to ship LCDs as standard with PCs. However, they've also bombed in other areas: they still don't have a coherent Mediacenter PC and seem to offer the OS on anything you'd want, and they don't have a tablet option. Now if they could pull their finger out and try to push those down people's throats, we might be getting somewhere.
So, before you're moronic enough to read bullshit into what he said, sit back and have a think about how a company's size can dictate whether technologies succeed or not, then think about what didn't succeed but could've, like Itanium, HomeRF and PCI-X...
If Dell says Intel in 2003 that they buy only x86-64 supported chips in 2006, while certain portion earlier. Now Intel has two choices, give dell chip they want or let AMD give dell chip they wan't.
Also for popularizing pci-express, if DELL says they are phasing out AGP in favour of pci-express in certain time scale, the gfx-card manufacturers are going to listen very carefully, as the chipset vendors too, since they know that if they don't have product that dell wants to buy the other guys will. And by dell making such decision practicly guarantees a reasonable market to go full production of the new interface.
As far as Blue Ray Disc Vs HD-DVD, if Dell chooces BD, then they will wait until they can get BD in pricepoints that fit the Dell model, and skip the HD-DVD unless the situation becomes such that it's no-brainer to include instead of DVD, and BD would still be too expensive.
But with Dell committed on one side, that side has big edge on PC:s once the prices come down, if there is competition between formats going on anymore, but don't assume dell stays that way if HD-DVD drive costs 20$ while BD costs 300$ . Dell is still volume manufacturer, but BD will be what they prefer if price difference is reasonable, and that whats will be in many peoples machines when the drive isn't too expensive for dell to put as default option in many of their lines.
Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
unlike Microsoft, they do it without being a monopoly.
My state has a sole source contract with Dell. For them, it's a monopoly and it sucks. Your state may have a similar contract. They swore it would save money, choke, gag.
It's not a perfect monopoly, yet. You can, with four months of effort and a PhD, purchase a non Dell laptop at LSU. Given the performance of some Dell laptops lately, the effort might be worth it. Act quickly, before they close the loopholes. Next they will forbid private laptops from connecting to the new interweb.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
He doesn't claim to have invented or developed them, he claims to have *pressured Intel into adopting them*
Indeed, and just because the dog drags the owner about by the leash a bit doesn't mean he's not still the dog.
One good tug on the choke chain'll bring 'im up short.
KFG
I bet Microsoft and Intel's lawyers were worried about their companies being charged as monopolies again. So they told Dell to say this.
Hobby Robotics
It's not heroic work, but neither is being a plumber...
You've obviously have never had a clogged toilet Christmas Day!
"Informative"? Certainly not. More like "Confused". No-one here ever said that AMD was first to have 64-bit processors. They're talking about 64-bit extensions i.e. to x86 processors.
Look out!
Most likely that's Red Hat *Enterprise* 4.0, which is the most recent officially supported version.
We have a poweredge server with suse linux running directly from dell. Unless I am dreaming wich I am not we did get the server from dell with linux loaded.
Woof! Arf! Arf! Whine! Woof!
That is all.
Pfft. That's nothing. I amputated my own nipples.
...he claimed that Dell was also responsible for the adoption of the Internet.
I hate when they do this too. That one bit me on the phone once. "Red Hat 4.0? What the fuck? Oh ENTERPRISE... OK."
I don't think anyone buys DELL products because of some misconceived idealism or the charisma of their CEO. They buy it since they need Intel machines with Windows (mostly for business).
DELL is no Apple. They don't need to defend their orientation or claim they are or aren't Wintel's lapdog, since noone of their clients care.
This comes more as a personal irritance from the CEO who's had enough of coleagues and clients kid him on the subject.
He helped in the creation of the Internet the only way that politicians ever do anything: he voted to fund it. And he never claimed to have done anything more than that.
Unfortunately, even that is much more than he did. The Internet began with ARPAnet in 1969! Al Gore helped secure funding for NSFnet. Now NSFnet was an important stage in the evolution of the Internet but voting to fund NSFnet does not equate to inventing the Internet, even if funding == invention.
MacWorld lists the Airport as #13 on their anniversary list of top 30 Apple products. So there's a little more recognition.
It's good for Dell to push Microsoft and Intel around a little. Microsoft needs to have the #1 PC manufacturer tell them, "Uh, we're not under your thumb." Remember the 90s, when Microsoft controlled OEMs with an iron-fist, illegally coercing them into shipping only Windows through license revocation threats?
"Sufferin' succotash."
Ouch. And, for me, I am thankful that it occured early.
Wisdom teeth hurt far more. A broken bone hurts far more. Circumcision hurts, but if you'd had it done as an adult, you'd have been a proponent within the first year.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
marx would have hated the internet. he denounced similar iniatives, early precursors of the internet, that the soviet union put into place after 1917, in his post-humously published 'der Grundrisse'.
the title refers to the schism with Lenin that this book engendered. this led to (Bolshevik) 'marxist leninism', the ideology most 20th century americans mistook for true marxism, and the rival theories of trotsky and the Memcheviks.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
It might be just me, but it really seems like /. is becoming less a site for tech news for geeks, and more a site for geek politics. It seems like every day there are fewer and fewer stories about any actual tech, and they are all being replaced with stories about the politics of "geek" culture. I'm not really saying it is a bad thing, but just in my opinion a little boring.
This is careening waaay off topic, but there are many who yearn for their long-lost foreskin, and despite "restoration" procedures, it'll never be the same as "factory equipment." As someone who was cut at birth, I'll never truly know. Maybe it's kinda like baptism... maybe it's better to let them figure out as an adult what choice they want to make before an irreversable choice is made for them?
Don't worry, the only thing you've missed out on is infections and other trouble. If - for some reason unbeknownst to me - you want a foreskin, I wish I could have given you mine and had all the benefits of being circumcised at birth in your stead.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Newsflash! The 12 people who bought (overpriced) Airports didn't have a whole lot to do with the widespread acceptance of Wi-Fi.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Dell brought about 802.11 acceptance, but sure as hell Apple did not.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Essentially, Kettler argued, Dell was responsible for selecting, if not necessarily developing, many of the technologies in today's desktop computers and servers. Among standards for which he said Dell deserves credit are 802.11 wireless networking, PCI Express communications technology and 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors."
Apple and Microsoft can make that claim to fame: neither company invents a lot themselves, but they do pick winners and losers. As for Dell, I don't think so: 802.11, PCI Express, and Intel's 64 bit extensions were going to happen even if Dell decided to snub them.
I like how Dell's resistance to change isn't noted. They didn't exactly embrace USB or IEEE-1394 (FireWire). They took their time offering DVI connectors on desktops. They weren't even at the forefront of SATA either. So we should give them credit for these three "contributions"?
Apple was one of the more active members of the WI-FI consortium. I'm almost positive that they equipped all of their machines with Airport slots and integrated antennas... long before Dell even offered it as an option (by many months). I think even e-Machines beat Dell to the WI-FI race.
The industry had already agreed on 802.11 long before Intel decided to follow suit (Intel's horrid Home-RF). I'm highly skeptical of Dell claiming that their clout had anything to do with brining Intel to their senses. Not even Intel can take on the whole industry... just look at Itanium.
So they may have helped convince Intel to bring 64-bit to the Pentium like the AMD Opteron, PowerPC, MIPS, SPARC, PA-RISC, Itanium, and Alpha. Who cares? It was a natural evolution that software (on PCs) still can barely take advantage of, barring massive recompilation. Everybody knows that AMD, is the indisputable innovator and influence for x86-64... beating Intel out the door by a large margin.
Dell backed 64-bit extensions to x86, primarily based on price. Itanium was simply out of the price point for their customers. No one should receive credit or be rewarded for running away from Itanium. Especially when your biggest reason is price. There's 1,000,001 reasons not to use Itanium. I'd be more impressed if they actually named one.
Lastly, the article makes it sound as if Dell invented PCI Express in-house. Dell doesn't design chipsets. They only buy them in bulk quantity. It's as if I'd take credit for the rise of Jolt Cola, because I buy it in bulk at Costco. No no no. They tell their fab to solder whatever connectors the chipsets support. It's not like they led the drive for faster interconnects. Again, AMD led the pack with Hypertransport, borrowed from the Alpha team... pushing Intel to raise their FSB speed, to even be able to support PCI-X & PCI-E.
Everything is all lies.
"he didn't say "invent", which makes it a misquote."
And that is the important thing. The GP lists a dozen differnt POSSIBLE meanings for the word initiate. He then goes on to imply that Gore must have meant each and every possible meaning.
Do you have aspergers? I admit my joke was pretty weak, but it was really obviously a joke!
Marx was a genius, wrong in many places but with a searing insight into the limitations of capitalism.
The Mike Adams whom you quote as saying "Marxism is an emotional disorder, not a political philosophy" is a blogging me-too. He seems reasonably intelligent but his incoherent partisan bias prevents him from seeing that Russian Communism is less communism than American Capitalism is capitalism. He's certainly in no position to critique Marxism as an emotional disorder given the quasi-neocon tone of the articles he writes for FrontPage.
"Free-market" capitalism is a fiction, one that is functionalized by government protectionism and pragmatic socialism. Yes, it's a heck of a lot better than Russian communism, which was nothing but bureaucratic totalitarianism jump-started by genocide. However, to not realize that American-style capitalism could be improved by more judicious application of socialist principles (read Marxism) is short-sighted at best.
It's sort of like the mouth saying "I'm the one chewing all this food so I'm going to keep it all to myself" without understanding the role the rest of the body parts play in the process, including "useless" parts such as the earlobes, armpit hair, and the appendix.
Unless the United States falls into anarchy and civil war, I can safely say that the greatest sorrow of my life will be having been circumcised as an infant. It's mutilation, really, and I have a scar to prove it.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
So if their such big innovaters, tell me why the still ship machines (mainly the 1100 line of desktops) with PCI slots only? That's right, no 1995 AGP technology, no 2000s PCI express, but PC friggin I.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
Why should anyone care whether they are evil because others urged them to be evil, or because they chose to be evil of their own free will?
I will admit that evil is a bit of strong term to use when describing Dell. Opportunistically amoral comes closer.
Is he testing the waters on backstabbing MS? Intel? Is he just flapping his lips to make noise? Or are we supposed to only attribute his opportunistically amoral actions to MS and Intel, and any noble and progressive actions he can dig up to his own true integrity?
Sorry, this interview causes me to despise Mr. Dell. I don't know whether it's any more accurate than news stories usually are, but...sheesh! He needs to screen his conversations through a press secretary...that way he'd at least have someone to blame.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Pure, unadulterated BULLSHIT. I'm complete and I've never had an infection. Circumcision is UN-NATURAL GENITAL MUTILATION.
I'm not sure why or how the heck Dell offers no price difference between preinstalled/supported Windows/Linux and uninstalled/unsupported FreeDOS. It's not just a Microsoft thing, though.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Fark - Tits = Slashdot.
"Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on
Man did not evolve wearing pants. The foreskin ceased to offer protection and became a liability after humankind decided to clothe itself
I think it was the invention of the zipper that made the foreskin a real liability.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I wonder if that is the reason grampa always told me, "Don't take any wooden nipples, kid."
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
I once hacked a dishwasher that quit working (it coated the dishes with powder) the day before Christmas -- with all the inlaws coming as houseguests. The hold down spring for the main solenoid valve has rusted through and broke off. I knew nothing about dishwasher internals -- it was pure software debugging methodology.
So tell me, do plumbers even work on Christmas?
Honestly, Apple was a first adopter to integrate the technology into their computers - but the tech was around, and in use, long before Apple decided to use it. I was piecing together wireless linux routers to interconnect towns before 802.11 was even released..
Willy
Or, you could just maintain a little person hygiene, and it wouldn't be such a problem...
http://outcampaign.org/
Maybe cause they're puppets of Microsoft... oh wait, no, that can't be it... their CTO just said they weren't... and loudly at that.
It's not even as positive as a dog dragging its chain. It's more like the dog begging and whining for that 64 bit bone, and the owner finally giving in and chucking the treat in its direction.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
I guess Mr. Kettler is running for Iraqi Information Minister.
FACT: You can't buy a PC from Dell without Windows on it unless you know exactly how to get to the single set of webpages that offer them. This has gotten better since Elliot Spitzer started sniffing around. In fact, now their site search engine will find the pages. In the past, this wasn't true.
FACT: These systems frequently cost more than equivelant systems running Windows. Even now, systems essentially the same cost 1,600 without windows versus about 900 with windows.
FACT: AMD powered systems are hard/impossible to find on their web pages. SeeZDNet's coverage from 11 April 2006.
Sure. Dell isn't a puppet dancing to the tune of MS and Intel. We believe you, Mr. Kettler. Sure we do. Disclaimer: I do not like Dell for a lot of various reasons.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Dell, like everybody else, used PCI-X as an interim solution for their bandwidth-hungry servers and workstations. They started using PCI Express for their desktops, workstations, and servers when Intel started including it "for free" in their chipsets. I don't think PCI-X and PCI Express were ever "in competition."
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Open source BSD and Safari/Konquerer, ring a bell? Not to mention that OS X can run fink on top of the open source BSD Unix base to run KDE and GNOME, etc. Try that on your stock Dell notebook. And no cygwin is NOT Unix.
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
Isn't it also the reasoning that Apple uses with USB? "The first with USB on the desktop!"
Did they go to the Al Gore school of claims that are not true. What is funny is that Wintels other lapdog, ZDnet is reporting it. Dell Ditty anyone?
As the other AC replied, no.
You may be thinking of PCI-X, the 64-bit, up-to-533 MHz extension of good old fashioned 32-bit, 33 MHz PCI 2.1.
PCI is a 'parallel' bus, 32 or 64-bits wide, whose connectors can be seen on the first two pictures on the Wikipedia PCI article. You increase the speed of PCI by either moving to 64-bit data paths (and doubling the number of pins,) or increasing the speed (from 33 MHz to 66, 13, 266, or 533 MHz,) either method requires fairly extensive work on the part of the motherboard maker, and requires a chipset that supports it.
PCI Express, on the other hand, is a 'serial' bus that is only 2 bits wide, but significantly faster (2.5 GHz vs. 33 MHz to compare the 'basic' modes in laymans terms. Some documentation says 1 bit wide, but I call it 2 bits, because it's 1 bit each way.) You increase speed in PCI Express by merely dedicating more 'lanes' to a single connector. Common sizes are 1x, 4x, 8x, and 16x (the replacement for AGP for use by graphics cards.) You can see pictures of the different connectors at the Wikipedia PCI Express article.
This means that while basic 32-bit, 33 MHz PCI is 133 MB/s, an "x1", or 1-channel, 1-bit, 2.5 GHz PCI Express link (with approximately 80% fewer pins,) is 250 MB/s. Likewise, top-of-the-line 64-bit, 533 MHz PCI-X is 4.2 GB/s, and AGP 8x is 2.1 GB/s, 16-channel PCI Express (with about the same number of pins as PCI-X,) is 4 GB/s.
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
This may seem somewhat tangential, but if you bear with me for long enough, it just may begin to make sense...
1) Dell and Apple have been always at odds, mostly because of animosities between Steve Jobs and Michael Dell
2) With the recent Apple's switch to Intel platform, I think the natural reaction from Dell will be that Intel has betrayed them. Hence, Dell may opt to moving to AMD in part to distinguish themselves from Intel/Apple platform, and in part (by abandoning exclusive use of Intel's chips) to use this as a retribution against Intel.
3) Comments such as this one have historically been generated to prepare consumers to an imminent and often dramatic transition in their business model.
In short, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw AMD Dell machines before the year's end.
Cheers!
I worked on Airport while at Apple and I can confirm that we did indeed work with Lucent but we did not simply rebrand their tech.
I don't know how much it varied in the beginning but over time the Airport cards definitely deviated more and more from the original cards they were based on via Apple's firmware upgrades. The straight WaveLAN/Orincco cards only had support for WEP. Depending on which one you bought it supported 64bit(silver) or 128bit(gold) WEP. The silver and gold cards were techincally the same hardware-wise just different firmware(there are some articles around detailing upgrading a silver card to gold). When I got a company supplied PowerBook G4 four years ago I shelled out the 100 bucks for an Airport card to play around with wireless at home. Over time Apple improved the firmware to eventually support WPA. The WaveLAN firmware doesn't support it's still WEP only. I'm not sure if they are doing something in software or what but an Airport card works at 11mbits with WPA personal or enterprise auth. We happened to have an old AP collecting dust that had a silver WaveLAN card in it. I took that card and put it into my PowerBook and it's detected as a Airport card. I updated the firmware with Apples firmware and it supports WPA as well. I've recently sold my original Airport card on eBay and have been using the reflashed WaveLAN card without incident. I actually got 100 bucks for the Airport card when it did sell, talk something holding its resale value.
--
What is pirate software? Software for inventory of stolen treasure?
The standards body was inventing 802.11 three years (or more) before Apple took them seriously. The technological underpinnings of 802.11b came from companies like Agere (Lucent/AT&T/NCR), Intersil (Harris), and Digital Ocean (seriously!). Apple had ZERO input into 802.11 during its first two years, and I seriously doubt they had much input in to the "b" version's salient aspects.
I did hear (from a most authoritative source) that Apple got a black eye for having one of its employees propose WEP (and we all know how painful that has been)....
And the 10 MHz spectrum your post refers to (i.e. "Data-PCS") never got used by ANYONE. However, a subsequent petition, spearheaded by Apple (or more accurately, by one zealous employee at Apple) *did* result in the creation of the U-NII band (which is where 802.11a operates in the U.S. -- i.e. 5 GHz).
If Dell offered a PC sans OS at a discount from the regular price it would sell very well. They would stock bare drives to supply these configurations. Dell doesn't sell naked boxes because Microsoft won't let them. They know that 99% of all blank hard drives end up with a pirated copy of Windows on them.
It might be just me, but it really seems like /. is becoming less a site for tech news for geeks, and more a site for geek politics. It seems like every day there are fewer and fewer stories about any actual tech, and they are all being replaced with stories about the politics of "geek" culture. I'm not really saying it is a bad thing, but just in my opinion a little boring.
/. almost from the beginning (i waited about 1 year before signing-up and doing my first non-anonymous coward post, hence not having a below 10000 id) and after the first couple of years "geek politics" has constantlty been gaining more article space.
What do you mean nowadays?
Been following
This all started with discussions around "open source", which is as much a way of making software as it is a part of a set of beliefs (ie geek politics) and extended onwards to things that affected "geek" workers (outsourcing, patents) and then onwards to politics (both public politics and company politics).
If this is really a "geek" comunity, then most people around here should have the mental brainpower to at least recognize that a complex web of social-interrelations affects our lifes and influnces technology (for example how regulations and social adoption influence technology).
I'm sure there's plenty of sites out there that cater for the "100% monkey coder that doesn't wanna think beyond that" or the "scientist that wants to live in the vacuum" or any such kinds of technical/scientifical inclined persons that would rather ignore those things that shape the doing of science or technology.
The rest of us (if i may speak for the rest of us) are just really pissed when politics gets in the way of being able to go on a turist trip to the Moon without actually being a milionair.
Well, if you are going to buy something from Dell, use the URL that they advertise on TV for slightly better pricing....
http://www.dell.com/tv/
-merv
When one can show Dell's R&D budget to be more than 10% of any other company's R&D, I'll believe that Dell "invented" something.
However, most of their "R&D" is actually industrial espionage, stealing the work and designs of other companies whenever they can't license it off.
It's kind of fascinating to see who's design Dell rips off with each new "innovation" that they present to the public, still hiding their Linux sales, and still bowing and scraping to Intel.
"Eustace? Eustace? Are you there? Are you there?" = John Leeming
Lucky you. None of the Dimension home range have the option, even the shiny 64-bit Core Duo machines.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
If they didn't invent Anything they sure hold of lot of Patents http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx /corp/patents/enus?c=us&l=en&s=corp&~section=01>
because suddenly they have noticed that they are replacable. (they always had been, but now that Apple also is on the Intel boat, they are replacable in their eyes.
From his point of view, he really is chosing and setting the course for industry. You just have to see it from his point of view... [shrug]
It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving
The parent poster is probably dead on. With the introduction of Boot Camp, Dell now finds itself in direct competition with Apple for laptop and small footprint home/media computers.
Because Apple has a very strong Identity that is synonymous with style, innovation and eloquence, Dell has a serious marketing problem. How does Dell compete with Apple for the same sales?
This has never happened before and may be quite a shock in Round Rock Texas. For as long as these guys could remember, Apple was that funny little company in Cupertino that sold unimportant computers (and some good gadgets) to a bunch of fanatics. Imagine the horror of realizing that your customer base is now targeted to get membership cards in that fanatical group.
Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving
Dell sold more wireless stuff than Apple, therefore they invented wireless.
Dell sold more EM64T processors to end users than Intel, therefore they invented EM64T.
Dell used to sell a lot of CRT monitors, so I guess they invented the cathode-ray tube as well.
Hey, I like this kind of reasoning.
Germany has instigated the two biggest wars so far, therefore Germany invented war. If the USA attack Iran we're going to sue them for copyright infringement.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Some people just aren't happy. This is the type of business they wanted, and now they are upset because they don't have a reputation like Apple? Wa, wa. Just admit you build them as cheap as you can and as fast as you can. You make a lot of money and we'll continue to call them crap. Fair enough?
I've spent time with Dell's techs, even visited their Texas campus for a week: Dell's people are hell-on-wheels when it comes to Wintel, utterly clueless when it comes to anything else.
Against my recommendations, we installed a Dell SAN (EMC was just a wee bit more expensive). The installation engineer who showed up had our two Wintel boxen up in about two hours; a solid week later he gave up on our main fleet of Linux and Netware servers and left. I had to finish the install myself.
Never again.
Regards;
Among standards for which he said Dell deserves credit are 802.11 wireless networking,
Bull. It was well on its way to being entrenched with or without their help.
PCI Express communications technology
Pfffft. 3gio has been in the works for a LONG time, and intel was the major pusher.
and 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors.
Ok, I'll give them this one. Without dell saying 'screw you intel, if you don't at least feature match AMD, we might actually start buying from them!' intel would have dragged its feet on that another year or two.
Because their operation's value is in the Walmart approach. BUT being an online operation, they could be based anywhere. Their innovation and technology initiatives are limited to retail, which means they will eventually be beat by Lenovo. Eventually, these operations will be entirely offshore, unless the Yuan gets re-valued or the dollar drops significantly. Dell should be defensive. Commodity operations have no staying power - and they don't help the nation defend our economic interests. They are a great investment and a very reliable firm for Wall Street, but they are not a significant player in any sense. Lenovo, HP, Gateway, any of these guys could pick up their slack if they were dissolved tomorrow, and no one in any market would care.
and they never have... Hell that's one of their claims to fame... Low R&D because they wait until everything is worked out.... Ther have been so many people trolling on this article it's not even amusing anymore...
Lucky you. None of the Dimension home range have the option, even the shiny 64-bit Core Duo machines.
Lucky me - maybe. The only reason that I need XP64 is because the machine is a workstation with 12GB of RAM. 32 bit Windows will only address 4GB of memory on this system, so XP64 was the only choice. However, there are plenty of apps that I use on a daily basis that won't run on XP64, so here I sit with two computers on my desk: one for electrical simulations and one for email, PDA and that sort of stuff. To be honest, I would have rather had regular XP (well, to be honest, I would have rather had Linux, but try telling our software vendors that), but the memory limit was a pretty big problem.
To make things even worse, our corporate IT department is utterly clueless when it comes to maintaining an XP64-based system. None of their automated tools will work on the system, so everything must be done by hand - meaning that very little gets done. In a small company maybe that wouldn't be a problem, but figure that there are around 30,000 computers in the company...well, the tiny percentage running XP64 get short shrift, that's for sure.
-h-
They have to test the machine... part of that is by installing the model-specfic windows image on the drive and running a test harness.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
OEM volume pricing for Windows is crazy cheap for Dell. Something like $20 or $30 per unit.
RedHat licenses for WS start at $99 -- they don't have an OEM program. They do have volume pricing, but I don't think it matches what MS can afford to give Dell.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
The "Windows Tax" on the cost of a laptop is the cost of an upgraded keyboard.
All of the Dell laptops I've tried work just fine with just about any linux distro, and the latitudes (can't speak for the inspirons) especially well w.r.t. hibernation and other power management stuff.
Dell won't ship hardware that's hard to support in linux, believe it or not. One exception is centrino wifi, but that's an Intel issue (which is basically resolved now)
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
But the whole thing with that is, of course you have the freedom afterward but the whole "Microsoft Tax" you have to pay. Granted you're probably not paying the retail price but the machine does have a little extra added to the price tag having microsoft shipped with it. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Turn based strategy game that runs over XMPP. Phalanx
I worked for Intel on the Eastfork project, over 50% of the business and technology decisions made were made by Dell. If anything Intel is Dell's puppet.
I can't speak to the Microsoft involvement other than to say that there is little money in selling Linux machines.
Dell's core concern is stability and no matter what any elitist wants to say, Microsoft is way more stable than Linux and historically Intel has been more stable than AMD. Now, AMD is getting more stable and Intel is losing its stability. But, if they start selling AMD's, AMD has no loyalty to them and won't let Dell control them like Intel does. At the same time Intel will stop letting Dell control their products because Dell would have broken their loyalties. Leaving Dell with 2 decisions to ask themselves. Do we sell Linux (which would bring miniscule revenue in comparison to their Windows revenue) just to apiece a few fan-boys and piss of Microsoft (which even if they did sell Linux would remain 99.99999999999% of their business)? And, do we sell AMD processors and piss of the company that lets us control their every move, is historically more stable and more inventive, has most of the market share, and a name the general public trusts?
I realize that I'm going to get flamed for this, but it's the truth. I'm really interested in what other people feel on the subject, but please don't just "W!ND0W5 SUCK50R5", that hurts your argument and will hurt the credibility of the other people making intelligent arguments for your case.
A well written post, and very insightful.
Total, utter, unadulterated bullshit. Microsoft built its' monopoly on the back of Michael Dell and others like him, and even if there was no other reason why I will never purchase a computer from his company, that reason remains.
Dell are a convenience company for the mindless sheep who feel helpless without getting a prefab package, as well as being fed, burped, and having their nappies changed. If more people bought parts and either paid for assembly or (*gasp*!) assembled it themselves, not only would they save a ton of money, Microsoft would not have its' monopoly, since the only way it has been able to enforce default installation of Windows on systems is because companies like Dell make whole, prepackaged systems.
If you Linux users want a world in which no operating system is installed on a new system by default, you need to convince people not to buy systems at all, but to buy parts from small, local businesses and then get them to assemble it if you're not confident doing it yourself.
I have a local hardware supplier near where I live, and I get markdowns from him because of repeat business. I only just recently upgraded my system, (last November) and got a Celeron 2.6 processor, 512mb DRAM, an Intel motherboard, (with a really awesome onboard soundcard, among other things), a combo DVD/CD burner, and a black Premiere case for $420 AUD. (I already had a hard drive, seperate video card, keyboard and mouse)
For me, Mr. Dell and his ilk are neither wanted, nor needed.
You're wrong. Dell has the right to sell their computers in any configuration they want to. They also have the right to freely make whatever deals they want. If some money changes hands behind the scene between them and one of their suppliers, that is their business, not yours.
:-) at a drive through, really aren't I paying a "resturant tax" that pays for the dining room too? Why do I have to, in effect, pay rent for the dining room eventhough I am not using it?
You have the right to buy your system from whomever you want.
MS forcing Dell into a deal is wrong.
Dell forcing you to buy a computer would be wrong.
You requiring Dell to sell you a computer on your terms is perhaps ideal, but if their terms are not to your liking then move on.
They offer a (damn fine, well priced) product, buy it or not.
Besides...There is no discounted price for "no OS" laptops, and you aren't going to find a better deal on a better laptop anywhere, so tell yourself that Windows was free, a gift from Dell and Microsoft on the occasion of you getting a new laptop if you will.
Other things that you might want to whine about:
1. There's no discount if you don't want wifi (WiFi Tax)
2. There's no discount if you don't want irda (IRdA Tax)
3. There's no discount if you don't want a modem (Modem Tax)
4. There's no discount if you don't want an AC adapter (AC adapter Tax)
5. There's no discount if you don't want a quick reference guide (Documentation Tax)
6. There's no discount if you don't want a resource CD (Documentation Tax)
7. There's no discount if you don't want an SVideo cable (Svideo cable tax)
8. There's no discount if you don't want a mouse (Mouse Tax)
9. There's no discount if you don't want a cdrom drive (CD Drive Tax)
Do you act like this about other stuff too?
When I go buy a burger, I usually get it "plain". I don't expect a credit for the "lettuce, tomato, and mayo tax" or even the dreaded "ketchup, mustard, onion and pickle tax".
If I buy a pair of boots but I don't want the shoelaces (I don't like yellow boot laces) I don't expect a discount.
If I buy a multivitamin, but I already get enough vitamin C, I don't expect a discount.
If I buy my aformentioned burger (don't do slashdot on an empty stomach
Get real.
Idiot, where did I say windows was free? point number 2 two your analogies suck. All the items you mention are just fucking off the wall. Third, i mentioned a few works on what I think happens and you turn it into an attack. Maybe you need to take some multi-vitamins and chill out. You are the only one whining like a fat idiot hugging their dell laptop.
Go make friends.
Turn based strategy game that runs over XMPP. Phalanx
Are you accusing me of being a Marxist who doesn't know what dialectical materialism is?
my password really is 'stinkypants'
Nice response.
Try reading this again when you are sober.