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How to Deal w/ Dubious 'Contracts'?
phorm asks: "It seems that for almost every service out there nowadays businesses want to fix customers into a contract. Some are pretty obvious (cellphone service, etc), but others are downright sneaky. About a year ago, my grandparents signed up for internet service with one of the bigger ISP's (Telus). They were offered an lesser rate for the first year, followed by $10/month more for following years, as well as their DSL modem for free (to be returned when service ends). None of the documentation received with the modem indicated that any 'contract' was being entered, nor were any documents signed. However, when they recently tried to cancel their service, Telus has indicated they will be charged a fee due to being within the 'contract'." Similar to EULAs, sometimes companies will enter you into a "contract" without providing anything to sign and will hold you to terms you may not even know about simply by your use of the service. How can you deal with companies practices, especially if dealing with their representatives becomes...difficult?
"On first questioning of this, they believed that they had somehow been contracted by agreeing over the phone when initial service was setup (despite that they don't remember being told about such a thing). However, when I called the ISP to dispute this, they indicated that upon connecting the service they would have been presented with a dialog indicating the contract terms and had to click 'OK' online.
My assumption would be that this was done through their setup CD, which comes with the modem. However, the ISP's software is not installed on their machine (I don't trust it not to have snoop-ware), as I had their machine manually registered through a web-interface (which did not indicate contracts at that time, I am not sure about now).
Despite this, calls to their hotline have indicated that they will not rescind the cancellation fee. Moreover, the last operator from the 'Loyalty Department' I talked to refused to separate the internet bill from the phone bill despite being told they would no longer be authorized to bill the given VISA account (they said they will not change that billing process unless given another account, and refuse to just 'send a bill' in the mail). When I questioned the legality of this the operator told me to 'get a lawyer and have them contact the legal department.' Obviously, this is an option but seems rather to be a bit extreme and I'm sure the company realizes it. So what does one do when a big company is bilking pensioners with contracts they have no proof of? Certainly there are no signed documents, and whether a particular button was clicked or not seems to have no proof except in the ISP's say-so, as well as the dubiousness of button-click legality under local law. My next step will likely be to explain the situation to VISA but then things can definitely get ugly as the ISP is also the local telco.
By the way, this is in Canada, so Canadian law would apply, but I would definitely appreciate suggestions as such cases seem more and more common."
My assumption would be that this was done through their setup CD, which comes with the modem. However, the ISP's software is not installed on their machine (I don't trust it not to have snoop-ware), as I had their machine manually registered through a web-interface (which did not indicate contracts at that time, I am not sure about now).
Despite this, calls to their hotline have indicated that they will not rescind the cancellation fee. Moreover, the last operator from the 'Loyalty Department' I talked to refused to separate the internet bill from the phone bill despite being told they would no longer be authorized to bill the given VISA account (they said they will not change that billing process unless given another account, and refuse to just 'send a bill' in the mail). When I questioned the legality of this the operator told me to 'get a lawyer and have them contact the legal department.' Obviously, this is an option but seems rather to be a bit extreme and I'm sure the company realizes it. So what does one do when a big company is bilking pensioners with contracts they have no proof of? Certainly there are no signed documents, and whether a particular button was clicked or not seems to have no proof except in the ISP's say-so, as well as the dubiousness of button-click legality under local law. My next step will likely be to explain the situation to VISA but then things can definitely get ugly as the ISP is also the local telco.
By the way, this is in Canada, so Canadian law would apply, but I would definitely appreciate suggestions as such cases seem more and more common."
If you really want to stick it to them, you might be able to get the local TV news to do a story on the practice (around here, Austin, TX, we have `[channel] 7 on your side' stories, where they go into detail about how somebody was being screwed and how the TV cameras made all the problems go away.
Engage in violent acts a la Stephen King's Roadwork. That'll show 'em.
I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes. -Nefarious Wheel
Go find a cliff or a bridge somewhere, then take your entire fucktarded family.
Have all of them jump off to their death, after that jump to yours. Then you will be out of your contract, and we will be rid of your endless whining.
If you're out for blood, get a lawyer.
If you're out for justice, demand a supervisor.
In either case, point out that they cannot produce any record of signing the contract.
And it needs to stop.
people who sell hardware, music, videos insist that youre licensing it.. but licenses and contracts indicate that actual negotiations took place..
this is not the case with shrinkwrapped or 'clickwrapped' products.
Microsoft claims it's illegal to modify my xbox.. nowhere is there a contract on that box.. it's my hardware and they sold it to me.
How do you get rid of this?.. well there have been some court cases which have overturned them.. but the proliferation of ultra-right corporate owned judges has made that record spotty at best.
You need actual substantive law at this point effected through real reforms in the political system in order to rid the consumer universe of this corporate idea that they own everything they sell to you after you buy it... like some neo-serf.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Enjoy our equsite customer service!
http://www.hackcanada.com/telco/index.html
(this guy really loves his former isp)
"If you don't have eyes you shouldn't have wings" -- Carl Pilkington
First and foremost don't believe you have to accept it. Contact the company and keep asking for a supervisor. If he doesn't help, ask for his and keep it up. That works most of the time because they just can't stand dealing with you. If that doesn't work, then write a letter... no email... a real letter. That usually gets a good response. When all else fails, take it to the Net, a lawyer, local media, etc. The key is to not take no for an answer.
http://religiousfreaks.com/90% of the time, contracts made for consumers-at-large are heavy handed and unfair.
Tried to get a gym membership lately? Oh wait..this is Slashdot..anyway..They try to lock you into these multi-year contracts at a very high price. Imagine having to pay $50 a month for three years. Can you honestly say that three years from now you'll live in the same area and still be making the most out of their services?
What about a cell phone? Most of them have massive early-termination fees.
Credit cards? Surprise clauses that very few people read. You're just making ends meet and then SURPRISE! You've spent 50% of your limit. Interest rates triple!
Car loans? You're a day late on a payment for any reason (even if they refused to post the check) and the car becomes theirs, your payments nulled (they keep the money) and its resold to another sucker.
I could go on and on, but the point is, contracts are mostly one-sided. Why? Because we want their service. Its not about service anymore, its about locking you into monthly fees, termination fees, fee fees, payment fees, early payment fees, etc. What if you bought a rake with your credit card and somewhere in it, it has a hidden transmitter to charge your card for more money whenever certain conditions are met. Its fair, right? You agreed to it, its right there on the back of the warranty you threw away because a $3 rake is easier to buy than send back and wait for a replacement.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Get ready to call in and argue. Don't take no for an answer. If you don't get the answer you want, call back.
I recently signed up with Bellsouth for internet, and I was lied to at every step of the way. They signed me up for the $89 3M plan, when I asked for the Lite, they told me that my bill would be about $90 and I haven't seen a bill under $160 ( business account ). It's disgusting, but their legal and sales teams don't have much decency.
You may have to stoop to their level unfortunately. I've heard of of people getting out of cell phone contracts by stating that they are moving out of the country, or that they object to some obscure but recent change in policy.
I've also heard that many companies either have a conflict policy of giving you a refund if it is reasonable if you go though enough levels of customer service. Otherwise, managers often have some amount of leeway to make exceptions.
The bottomline. Fight it. If even people do, it may just have then reconsider those policies ( to wishful thinking... )
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Contact the CRTC about your problem... they have been useful to me in the past when I have a dispute going on with a telco (MTS for me). They give them 10 days to get back to you... simply explain the situation. Say that you didn't sign any contracts and that they are forcing you with bundling to pay for a contract that you simply didn't sign.
Good luck! I hate Telus... usless bastages!
I could go on and on, but the point is, contracts are mostly one-sided. Why? Because we want their service.
this is only the tip of the iceberg..
the current legal and regulatory structure centering around incorporation and securities allows people to centralize power and resources while being spared the majority of the risks.
This results in an uneven playing field where incumbent corporate owners have tremenous amounts of market power, but the common man has none.
The ways to combat this are:
-from labor standpoint.. pro union laws which allow labor to do the same thing as the companies that employ them.. centralize power and resources without reprisal from anti-union companies.
-from a consumer standoint.. pro consumer laws which put a cap on contract demands. Consumer unions are not enough.. they will only be able to tackle "main stream" products.. regulation to balance out concepts like limited liability and corporate personhood are needed.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
they also change the terms and conditions without notice and they say thats perfectly legal.
IANAL but if I recall correctly Canadian law (yea, I'm a Canuk) says that you cannot agree to any contract that you have not read and signed. This may have changed, but at the time when I was looking into it, the law said that you cannot give up rights without reading what rights you are giving up. This was in relation to an AUP and a EULA. The clause "subject to change without notice, and continuation of using said service constitutes that you agree to the changes" did not hold water. The contract that I had entered at the time (about 7 or 8 years ago) was the contract that the company was bound to uphold because that is the contract that I'd signed, and I could not enter a new contract without explicitly agreeing to it.
Again, IANAL, but since Canadian and American contract laws do differ in some very serious ways, I'd at least talk to a lawyer and/or hit the local library. One thing that I found works pretty well is if you know someone taking law at a colledge/university level. They generally know a lot, and can always ask their prof. Since profs have to teach it, I've found that the better ones are really good at answering off the wall topics...they've seen them come up in papers n such and have to determine the relevance of them.
As for the billing, you should not have any issues with cancelling any other services that you have with them (as long as they are not under contract). If it's a service that you actually want with them, but want the billing method changed, you still have the option of cancelling the service, then setting it up again. It's a pain in the ass, but it is an option.
Zro . two
"I come from Canada...they say I'm slow....eh?"
I did a quick lookup into online contract law in CA and found that historically there must be a definition of how the contract was made (clicked on a button) and how it was recorded (in transactional logs). They should be able to produce these, if not I doubt any court would enforce it. On the other hand, if they can, it will most likely be enforceable. It seems that Canada has very loose regulations about contracts as they are considered "private" affairs. Conversely, in the US they are governed with strict diction.
What about a cell phone? Most of them have massive early-termination fees.
They have to, they subsidized that cool new feature laden cell phone you are carrying, US cell phone deals are not as one-sided as you think. If you take the phone and quit the service they lose big time. Some parts of the world do not subsidize, you pay full retail for your phone, and customers have an easier time changing providers. US consumers have voted with their dollars, they would rather have the Motorola Razor for $50 than have an easier time switching providers.
Here is the promo I suspect: http://promo.telus.com/tm/05/q3/highspeed/index_sw itchDM.html
Cancellation terms seem pretty clear to me as well:
" $120 cancellation fee applies to early Rate Protection Plan termination. "
can you sign up for a monthly internet service without entering in and agreeing to a contract?
p .do
http://www.mytelus.com/internet/highspeed/faqs-rp
...I talked to refused to separate the internet bill from the phone bill despite being told they would no longer be authorized to bill the given VISA account
The question kind of answers itself. You've explained the situation and they've explained the situation. As it stands they've lost both a data customer AND a phone customer.
It is much easier these days to switch phone service than internet service. I dropped Telus completely about 8 years ago (Fido for cell, Shaw for data) because of exactly the kinds of complaints that you have. I honestly can't imagine doing business with Telus again nor can I imagine getting a traditional phone line for any reason.
In BC and Alberta take a look at either Uniserve.com or AcroDSL.ca for a couple of resellers of TELUS' service. Basically they will have you as a customer and deal with telus on your behalf to get you service. Keeps your Internet separate from your phone company, which in my experience has been a Good Thing.
get yourself kicked off their service
use both your PC and your telus email account to send tons of fake spam, or even better spam complaining about how telus sucks
you could also try contacting the credit card company to see what they can do on their end.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
You wouldn't have needed to physically sign a contract; what probably happened is that after the internet equipment was connected, the first page that came up was the ISP's contract which someone clicked "I agree" to. And an electronic signature IS the same as a physical signature (at least in US law, probably Canada too).
This isn't a "click-though" license, it's a contract. When I had my cable internet set up, I purchased my cable modem at Wal-Mart. After the cable guy installed it, the first page I got was CableOne.Net's customer agreement, which outlined the terms of my contract (in my case, a 1-year commitment).
If your ISP did the same thing, they don't need proof. The fact that you're using the service means you must have agreed to it in order to get out of the "walled garden." But they very likely have the logs of your PC submitting the agreement.
Nathan
First off, IANAL; however, under Contract Law in Canada there has to be a meeting of the minds (consensus ad idem), which I belive could be argued with a click-through agreement which could be easy missed if their software was not installed, this would not be considered the case.
For small matters like this, contracts do not need to be written, verbal contracts have been recognised by the court, so click-through agreements (if read and understood), could hold up if there was an expectation that the contract was read.
The requirements of a contract were fufilled otherwise, something was offered in exchange for compensation, and an agreement was made (witnessed by paying the invoice). I think that may be the problem in the end, even if the click-through agreement is not upheld, the service was requested (verbal contract) and paid for (witness of acceptance).
Also, as there was an initial discount, it could be inferred that there was a minimum term to the contract (yes, contract law allows for common practice), which would in turn imply that a penalty may exist.
In short, Telus is probably right enough that they can keep things in court, and stand a reasonable chance of succeding with their case. If you want to try getting a lawyer to send a letter, that may get you something; however, I'd assume Telus isn't going to back down from a legal perspective.
The first step when you have a dispute with a company is always, always, ALWAYS to try to resolve it amicably with them. Don't skip this step. Show that you're making every effort to resolve the problem.
Note that "amicable" does not mean "walkover". If they say something you disagree with, don't roll over and take it; argue the point. If you can't get it sorted to your satisfaction, ask to speak to the next level up. Don't take no for an answer. If they say "You'll have to call back another time", or "Somebody will call you back", don't accept that without asking "Whom will I need to speak with, and when will they be in the office next?" Allow a reasonable time for the individual to call you back; if they don't, call the company and ask immediately to speak with whichever group you were told you needed to speak with.
Always remain polite and keep your cool. Don't blow up at them. That gives them an excuse to throw the blame on you.
After making reasonable efforts to resolve the matter amicably without success, you have several courses open to you. How much money are you talking about? If it's not too much (the limit in Australia is around $5000, IIRC, maybe more), you could try Small Claims (on the understanding that it does cost to file, so it may not be worth it if the amount is small). Or a chargeback on your credit card. Or ask a lawyer to write an appropriately worded letter.
At each step along the way, you need to ask yourself if your time and aggravation is worth the money. Sometimes you'll get the bit between your teeth and fight on, regardless of the money, as a matter of principle, and that's fine as long as you know you're doing it, and you know what's at stake.
Example: I had a trial period at a local gym. I specifically asked them if I could cancel at any time in that period without penalty, as I needed to double check my financial situation and decide if I could afford it. They indicated that I could. I ended up calling them to cancel in this period. Long story short: they didn't abide by my request (nor did they indicate what I needed to do to follow on with my request to make sure it stuck); when I tried to escalate up to the next level (the gym's manager), he refused to talk to me. So I issued a chargeback. One month later, the gym's head office called me asking why I'd issued a chargeback, so I explained. I eventually won out, but I won't be going back to that particular gym again.
I was completely prepared to go to court over it (knowing that if it did go to court, I could just file at Small Claims and the case would revert to its jurisdiction, meaning that I'd be out at most the money the gym claimed I owed them plus filing fees), but it didn't get to that point. You could also check out any ombudsman in your region, and possibly the local consumer watchdog.
Good luck.
This is not my argument, this is the argument they will use against you. If you are paying your bills then you are aware of the rates they are offering you and the discounts. Every statement that went out by the company I used to work for was used to leak out important information regarding their bills...most of it fine print. But point is the customer was notified in one way or another.
Simple truth is more than likely somewhere along the line you did sign a contract. The company I worked for kept a record of all contracts signed, hard copy. Special intro rates without a contract normaly the fee they can charge you is related to the use of the modem.
If you get a nice CSR on the phone, like I was...they will more than likely do what they can to help you out before telling you to contact a lawyer...honestly who you were talking to was an ass for saying that. As far as the bills go, many ISPs use software that combine several services into one account. In order to split the bills they must setup an additional account under the same address. This was ungodly confusing for our call center. A customer would call in about their phone bill and their cable/I-net account would pop up. So more than likely they where telling you the truth in terms of how their billing system works, but my company provided a way around it and more than likely there are enough customers that have bitched about it to have your ISP do the same if you talk to a team leader or something.
My customer experience with contracts and the like has been very good though. Several companies simply forgot to charge me any fee because their system didn't pick it up...saving me around 500 bucks in total to several different companies. The less you call after closing an account the better, the less likely someone will catch it.
But anyway, good luck to you...and if you're going to contact a lawyer you might as well see if there are any class action suits you could join in first. But I think you are far far far away from that stage...and I would have to say the person you were talking to simply said it because they knew you would get no where with it. Talk to the company, the BBB, keep a lawyer out of it...they have better things to do than worry about a couply hundred bucks at best.
Canada has a small claims court system. That's always useful.
So is saying "This conversation is being recorded and anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. Please identify yourself. ... What is the exact name of the company with which you claim I have a contract ... ... Do you have a signed copy of the contract ... "
Canadian corporation lookup is here.
When I signed up the fine print was short and clear enough:
"Cancellation fee applies to early Rate Protection plan termination".
I'd double check that before blaming Telus.
Call your Credit Card company and have them issue you a new credit card number. If you want to do it simply, claim your credit card was lost -- they have a great system in place for cancelling the current credit card and issuing you a new one. Then when Telus tries to bill your CC it will fail and they will have to send you a paper bill. Once you have a paper bill, only pay for the phone service portion. In the mean time, write them a letter expressing your intentions to only pay for phone service.
my blog
Telus truly is a marvel of customer service. We used to be customers until we moved into an older apartment building, and in order to move our service they had to send a tech by to ... I'm not quite sure what. Anyhow, our connection appointment happened to fall on the same day as their labour dispute started. Not taking sides, just bad luck on our part. We started calling the help line, which is a topic in itself. Who decided it would be a good idea to force customers to thrash about with a horrible voice recognition system with sometimes lengthy interludes of "Margaritaville" and that goddamn "Take it eeeeeeeasy, take it eeeeeeeasyyy" song? Anyway, they strung us along for about two months, promising us a great deal on a cell phone that never arrived, install appointments every second week, and finally "free call forwarding". What they didn't tell us about the "free" call forwarding was that it would trigger the start of full phone line billing. We didn't find out about that until we got the bill in the mail three months later, long after we'd switched to Shaw. A couple of phone calls making it extremely clear where they could send that bill made the situation disappear, and they ended up sending us a cheque for 15 bucks due to a "billing irregularity".
Long story short, I understand that labour disputes suck. Please don't lie to me. Repeatedly. And then bill me fraudulently. Not good.
I talked to their legal department and a lawyer friend a few months ago about telus's contract and get this - even if they reduced the level of service, or implemented a drastically lower bandwidth limit, you would still be charged the cancellation fee unless you took them to court.
So while your prices may stay constant, the level of service would noticably be decreased. Lovely, eh? Sort of how sprint pulls a cell tower out of your neighborhood and all of a sudden you can't make calls without roaming, but oh, no, cancelling your contract will cost you $200*
As you may or may not know, about 4 months ago, both telus(dsl) and shaw (cable) started cracking down on bandwidth usage. First both started from ~100 gigs (which was an unofficial "you're abusing the network because we say so" limit) and then it started dropping gradually. At one point, shaw's service dropped to a pathetic 30 gigs a month, and telus dsl users were limited to 25 or so.
The interesting thing is that the bandwidth caps dropped very quietly - only a press release and a small change on the sales page (meanwhile, shaw continued to advertise unlimited service. Belive they still do actually, even though the cap is set at 60 gigs - you can pay another $10 a month to get back to the previous limit of 100 gigs). Also - when one company dropped the cap, the other would follow within days. Now - I'm not saying that there was collusion, but it sure as hell stank of something.
After a few months of this, they finally figured out that it cost them more to have a csr make a 15 minute call to the customer to discuss their bandwidth usage than it does to pay for a hundred gigs of bandwidth - so the bandwidth limits are now 40 for telus and 60 gigs a month for shaw (for the mid range personal accounts). BTW. It is impossible to get an account where I live that gives you more than 150 gigs of transfer a month.
Really, this isn't as big deal, the monopolies up here act like arrogant assholes and have the idea that contracts only apply to the users using their service - a bit better than BellSouth, but still annoying to deal with. Eventually, these bullshit "contracts" of adhesion will be challened in court just like their magical bandwidth limits and this will be resolved. Unfortunately, Canucks are less likely to sue, so it may be a while before this is resoved.
Good luck in your quest, although I honestly can't reccomend shaw. Shaw, at least doesn't block access to union websites during a lockout though.
* a hateful "I hope you fucks are all gunned down and shot in the knees" goes out to all the sprint employees.
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IANAL, IMHO, etc.
Verbal contracts pose a number of issues that need to be sorted out, which is why I always avoid using them for my business. I always put everything in writing as a way of avoiding misunderstandings.
The issue is that although a verbal contract is legally binding in many jurisdictions, you have problems of interpretation because you don't have a common written reference you can argue over. Everything centers around ones ability to prove that certain terms were known and understood by both parties at the time the contract was accepted. So without written materials it is very hard to prove that the terms of the contract as such were accepted.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Besides the laywer & tv suggestions brought up here, I'd also recommend regulatory bodies.
Or any organization to whom they may feel obligated to respond to (at the very least you are causing the company to pay someone to write a letter in response to your complaint).
Most people don't realize just how mean some regulatory bodies are to those they regulate. We've had telco problems resolved *the day after* a complaint was filed with the FTC (US only though).
See, when you file a complaint it *does* go on the record and it can majorly affect how a company is treated by the organization that regulates it. Companies tend to take that more seriously.
Of course I don't know if telco's in Canada have a regulatory agency, but if they do, that's something to do in addition to everything else.
I don't know what exactly your elderly parents agreed to, but at least in the US if you agree to service, and use the service, you are liable to be held accountable to every little bit of fine print hiding anywhere the company says you are liable to. Everyone so far has said horror stories of the like happening to them. I just yelled at US Bank about my credit card today, and have absolutely no leverage due to the contract. I have had a similar experience to the OP but with Sprint. Everyone is talking of the crooked right-wing politicians just taking business bribes... well... YES!!!! What else do you expect politicians to do?
Bottom line - Service businesses leveraging consumers into long contract terms that indubitably favors them == PROFIT
And why don't these service providers deserve this profit? They spent the kagillions of dollars on the pipe from your house to their equipment. And the service runs entirely on their equipment that they own and can operate however they please. There is nothing wrong with extorting subscribers for simple services that cost pennies for the dollars they return -- that's big business!!!
Flashback - 1982: Ma Bell gets broken up becausse of anti-trust. At this point in time, they owned most of the network and routed most of the calls. Judges decide their potential for abuse is too great. Many smaller companies emerge to enumerate change, and more importantly to meet the ever-growing needs of the phone service consumer.
Hop to 1994: You: Woah, interweb is kinda neat! I bet that data is going to be huge now that porn can go to every computer in the world! Telco: Let's lay fiber-optic cable everywhere but only turn 3% of it on so we can say 'We have the best network evar get interweb from us!'
Skip to 1997: You: Man, this internet shit totally kicks the crap out of the phone; I don't even ever need to leave my house ever again! Telco: Dude, good idea on that fiber-optic cable bro! Let's go count our money.
Jump to 2006: AT&T + SBC just merged again, and provide voice, ip, telephony, and mobile coverage throughout the entire United States. They have so many billions of dollars to lobby the FCC, we no longer need fear the government will do anything to affect the flow of packets ever again! The nations interests are much better served by giving all the money to the Megacorp that got all the politicians coke, booze, and whores (or the political dick-sucking equivalent).
The solution is you. Vote with your dollar. Give the money to the smallest ISP that is local and offers the services you want. Maybe you can speak to the owner if you have a problem. That way, your money stays in the community, and they actually give a rip about your problem when you call - because they work hard for your money. Long live low-priced, small-fry competition from the little guy! If enough people give in to competing enterprises, eventually one of them will work hard enough for the consumer that they feel like paying a fair amount for the service.
I don't know if you flappy-headed Canadians have a FCC equivalent, but if you do - threatening to call them and actually calling them if need be is how you get the attention of the ISP. Or like the other guy said, hire a lawyer. But, beware. I am the Director of Operations for a small ISP, and even our contracts are air-tight. The best bet might just be let it go and move on with your life.
Guys.... it's unfair if the merchant is trying to hide something but it's all fair on those lock-in contracts if stated clearly. You want a lower rate? Sign up long term, if not there's still pay-as-you-go kinda services. Gym membership for $70/month vs $50/month for 3 years? Yeah operating a gym is expensive - check out your local YMCA or go buy your own fitness equipment.
Pelt him with tim bits.
There is no way they are going to give up an extra 2.5% for no good reason, without getting something in return from consumers.
You can fill out forms on a vendor webpage that specifies no renewal, but that goes away on specially crafted PayPal screens.
It can end up being unlike any PayPal transaction you've ever seen since it is first an agreement to charge you any time.
The handoff to PayPal can be slick, and most consumers probably can't tell if they paid for it THEN, or if the charge comes later.
Could you please post some additional particulars in reply to this (city, name of the Telus supervisor you dealt with, whatever else you think you can get away with posting publicly)? I'm currently a Shaw subscriber, but I'll be more than happy to call up Telus and tell them I was planning on switching to their service until I read about this, and could they please explain to me what has happened here?
If a few people bring it to their attention, I suspect they'll look into it and realize that the adverse publicity is going to cost them much more than they ever stood to gain by playing stupid little contract games with your grandparents.
licet differant, aequabitur
A contract with much more doobitude!
That's how I got out of my draconian contract with ATT cables services at the time.
Seriously, one return-receipt letter with a law office's letterhead does the trick.
They don't care, they don't have to. They are the telecom company.
I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
My wife works for National City bank here in Michigan. She's in the chargeback department, and had mentioned to me that visa will take the money back from the merchant unless they have a signed contract/agreement to fight a customer dispute. Visa does not recognize clicking on a button or any other method of getting someone to sign-up for a service other than signed docs. Visa will take the money from the merchant without them being able to do anything and credit it back to the customer, also if the merchant violates visa's rules enough they will not be allowed to use visa for payments anymore. So I don't know what it's like in Canada, but I would recommend contacting your bank and disputing the charges saying you didn't sign any contracts what so ever, and they are unwilling to credit your account. I know National City is not on the merchant's side when it comes to these, I personally just had to have them do the same thing with some stupid credit report internet site. Good luck!
s/your/you're/
Powered by caffeine and sugar; BSD
Before you ask for the supervisor, you might try talking to another one of their representatives again. Make sure that you get the person's name and ask about where the call center is at. I've worked in a Helpdesk position or two, and have noticed that when you know the name of the representative helping you, you have a lot more power and it can change the dynamic of the interaction. Instead of the big company being evil and unaccomadating, the representative knows that if you aren't satisfied, their name will likely come up. If they aren't helpful, then talk to the supervisor (making sure to mention the representative's name). I doubt in this case that the supervisor will be helpful, but it may be worth a try. Always remember to get names and locations when getting tech support, talking with customer service, or purchasing something by phone.
FYI... You can register your MAC without clicking on any agreements by doing it over the phone.
Hire a dubious lawyer.
If you don't feel like bluffing, you can often exploit a loophole in service contracts by telling the company that you are moving to a place where they do not have coverage. I used this on SBC by telling them that I was moving to Afghanistan (obvious lie) and would like to remain in my service contract as long as they could provide an internet connection for me in Kandahar. The customer service rep was skeptical and asked me my address, so I made one up (123 Islam way). They cancelled my DSL connection without charging me a penny.
I live in Alberta. There are only 2 ISP's - Shaw and Telus. (3Web may still be around, but last I checked they weren't accepting new customers) There was a local dialup company, but they went belly up due to technical problems. *cough*Telus-blocked-half-their-lines*cough* CRTC (Canadian FCC) are worthless. Our only hope is satellite. And I live in the city.
Say you had a child click "I agree." Children can't engage in contracts, right?
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
- Need a signature to make an enforceable contract
- Need to outline terms, conditions and break penalties in advance
- Have any restrictions on the level of the penalties
- Need to have a specific "I agree" and can have a rudimentary "yes" begin the contract.
- Have to have the service in the home for the contract to begin.
So, in the case of Telus, I've run across people moving into new homes that are paying for service that isn't in their home yet and won't be for some months. In the intervening period, they get the bill, call Telus to find out what the issue is, and are informed they are in a contractI'll tolerate anything except intolerance.
I had a similar issue back when SprintPCS started in on the contract thing. I'd maintained service without a contract for years, then was preparing to switch to another carrier (before number portability), so I dropped to the cheapest service plan available to ride out a couple of months as people learned my new number. When I called to cancel, they said I'd entered a 2-year term by changing rate plans, even though I never heard of such a term and I'd changed the rate plan by calling their service center (no paperwork, no license agreement, nothing).
After trying to get them to drop it, it was obvious they wanted to make the $300 from me since I was leaving. So I began engaging their support personnel in several departments via telephone, writing letters, requesting documentation in writing, etc. for about 3 months. I know that in the end I cost them more money by using their support resources than they made from the $300 I finally sent them when they threatened to send it to collections.
Sue the bastards in small-claims court.
The procedure is simple and you do not need a lawyer. You need to do some reading first - there used to be a book called "Sue the B*st*rds", which was very good, but I believe it has now been superseded by a newer book called "Sue the Bastards".
Your local public library almost certainly has this book. Be sure to read it, it's important to "do it right".I could go on and on, but the point is, contracts are mostly one-sided. Why? Because we want their service. Its not about service anymore, its about locking you into monthly fees, termination fees, fee fees, payment fees, early payment fees, etc....
Jaded much? It could be that there are a lot of contracts these days because companies have to deal with a lot of loonies who take their special deals and refuse to pay them. Of course, this is slashdot and all coporations are evil incarnate, bar none.
Consider that companies aren't stupid. If they could forgo paying the expense of a legal department, they probably would. It is quite likely that they would like to forgo the expense of dealing with managing customer contracts entirely, but can't.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
If you are sure you are within your right, do the following:
* Don't pay bills that you think aren't yours to pay. Instead, write back and tell them why you don't pay. Don't just throw them away!
* Every time you call, start writing down dates, times and NAMES, and summarize everything that's been said
* When you know enough, call again and ask for the complaint department
* Write a letter to the complaint dept., telling them what happened and note what your reaction is. Demand an apology and corrective action.
Make sure that all letters are hardcopy and send with confirmation by signature.
Now inevitably comes the time when you get mail from a collecting agency. Just send them a small note, letting them know how you handled it and enclose copies of the letters.
I've dealt with stupid companies a few times and this is how I did it.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
Customer services job is to make the company money and to do nothing that might spoil that aim. As a result
they do not have the ability or inclination to think or do the right thing. Your goal is to get away from
those people as soon as possible.
There are two possible ways you can do this:
1. Small Claims
Write a nice letter to them (be very nice you'll want to show it in court later). Simply state
that you have no record of contract which would give the permission to charge a cancellation fee.
Ask them to supply you with a copy of the contract and information as to when it was entered
into. Give them two weeks to reply.
If they reply with a signed contract containing an cancellation clause, your sunk. But I doubt this will ever happen.
What they will most likely do is ignore your letter. Or they will send you a form letter that totally doesn't address
your concerns.
At this point you file a small claims action against them. It's quick and probably doesn't cost very much money.
The forms are not complex and the court clerks will help you out if you need. The small claims court is designed
for the little guy who can't afford a lawyer.
After you file you case you'll get a call from some low level person in the legal department. These people have different
goals than the customer service department. Their job is to make the problem go away and if you're asking for something
reasonable they even have the power to spend some of the company's money to do it.
At this point you're done.
If you do have to go to court, then the judge will see your parents, (a couple of elderly people on their own) against a very
stupid and tricky corporation. You'll probably win.
2. The regulators
Find out who regulates the company. Find out the address of the department that handles consumer complaints. Write to the
regulators a nice factual complaint letter.
Find out the name of the president or vice president of the company. CC the letter to him.
I can assure you that the people who deal with the regulators have a completely differnet mind set than customer service.
They want problems to go away before the government gets involved.
Now what the regulators tend to do is send a letter to the company, saying "We got this complaint, what's your side of it?"
The company really really wants to be able to say, "We solved that already." So the copy of the letter you send to the
company will receive action.
I once wrote to the FTC complaining about a credit card company. I got a letter from the company stating:
1. The problem has been taken care of.
2. You owe us no money.
3. Nothing about this incident has been reported to the credit rating people.
4. Please tell the FTC that everything is OK.
Got a letter from the FTC too. It said I had written to the wrong agency. (Should have written to the Comtroller of the Currancy.)
Bottom line: I had people call me and demand payment on a bill I've had no record of. They asked "When can we expect
a payment on this past due bill?"
My answer, "When you get a judge in the County of San Diego to tell me I must pay it!"
Note: If they say something like, "You really should pay your bills on time so as to not damage your credit rating," then
that warrants a call to the Secret Service (American law enforcement agency which handles wire fraud.)
"This company called me up and told me that I had to pay $60.00 which I don't owe them or they will wreck my credit rating.
Isn't that extortion?"
As long as you've not paid them you're in the driver's seat. The two major things to remember are be calm and reasonable (if nothing else
it drives the other side nuts) and don't send money.
They still demand a contract if you own the phone. My father bought a v60 in Hong Kong, before the US release because he liked the design and wanted to switch to a GSM phone. He got AT&T service for it, but they still demanded a 1 year contract. Why would they need it? It was no strings attached for them, he'd provided the phone, what did they need to make back?
I had never read this article before, but it's going to be permanently in my bookmarks, now. This informative article could have saved me much time and aggravation over the last couple years.
How and when to take your customer service problems to upper management in a way that will actually bring solutions. I might use it with Bell Canada tomorrow.
In Australia you can raise a complaint with the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman. Just go to their website ( http://www.tio.com.au/ ) and submit a complaint.
Once this happens all sorts of management in the offending company get involved, because if they don't solve the problem to your satisfaction within 14 days the TIO steps in and that causes a huge amount of work for the company unless they are clearly and unambiguously correct.
The number of problems I've seen magically disappear this way is stunning. For example, MCI marketing was calling our house 2-3 times a day. This went on for weeks. There was never anyone on their end. I tried calling them back, but could never get a human (with as much as 30 minutes on hold). I tried calling MCI corporate, couldn't get a human, left a message, nothing changed.
I filed on on-line complaint with the Illinois Commerce Comission. The problem stopped within 24 hours and within three days I had a nice letter from MCI saying they would no longer call and basically apologizing for all the calls.
Under copyright law, it is illegal to copy a page from e.g. a book. If it's for personal study reasons, it's "fair use", but in a company it is always illegal.
So here in Holland they legalized it: If you pay a reasonable fee (about $0.06 per page), you can have your copy. They appointed an organization to collect those payments. Fine.
So they send you an invoice: Research has shown that your company size in your branch copies about 5500 pages per year, of which 13.4% is copyrighted. We'll cut you a deal and only charge you for 11.4% so you only pay us $37.62.
Oh yeah. They say they have a deal with some branch organizations, and that those agree that the deal is reasonable.
The options they give you are: A) Pay in full, then protest. B) Indicate you're no longer in business or C) You don't have a copier.
I don't want to lie, so B and C are out. The catch is: Their "terms and conditions" say that once you pay in full, you have a contract with them. And that contract probably says they are allowed to use those averages etc etc.
I've made ONE copy of a copyrighted page while this law was in effect. So I owe them EUR 0.045. I paid them one euro, and told them it would be enough for a bunch of years. They send a new invoice the next year with the same conditions.
I'm now spending about 10 times more money on fighting these guys in postage stamps than the amount that I legally owe them. I'm spending over 100 times more in lost productivity.
I can count on one hand the times that people in my family have failed in our attempts to get large companies to settle issues to our satisfaction. Companies are banking on the fact that people either are too lazy or don't know how to follow a chain of command and that if they give you enough run around you'll give up and go away. My dad has even gone so far as to call up the president of the company on several occasions when dealing with the customer service reps and their supervisors wasn't getting him anywhere. Sometimes you have to try multiple approaches to get an issue resolved to your satisfaction--know that customer service reps are supposed to be logging calls, so even if you don't succeed with one rep, it's helpful if they have logged in their records that you're threatening to call the State Attny. General's office to get them to pursue a fraud case if the issue isn't resolved (or, on the flip side, if there isn't a log of the conversation and you just got transferred into no-man's land, that can also be worked to your advantage because the rep isn't following protocol).
It's a bit harder when you're dealing with offsite call centers, especially if they're not in your country and you have to deal with a cultural barrier as well (British Airways, for example, is a pain to deal with because they have different cultural protocol for complaints), or if there aren't multiple levels of supervisors in the same location, but given persistance, more often than not you'll succeed.
And, if all else fails, threatening negative publicity doesn't hurt. My mom had an issue where she paid a department store credit card bill but because of a cash register glitch the payment never posted to the main system. After months of unsuccessfully trying to resolve it with politeness, she sent off an e-mail through the corporate feedback site threatening to call up the TV stations and then walk into the store manager's office at the local store and cut up her card--the payment miraculously credited to her account within a matter of hours after she sent the e-mail.
Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
I would certainly reccomend trying to climb the phone ladder as high as you can go, don't let them move you laterally with the transfers! Be sure to get numbers or extensions of reps before you start becoming a problem so if you get transfered to somebody useless you can dodge the customer service wait. If things get bad, you might want to consider getting a phone recorder so you can catch them with their pants down, just verify how you can do it legally. You can also dig a little in to their company and directly contact by phone or mail one of their managers. If you can only get a name, find the number for their reception desk or operator and ask to be transfered to that person. If you can't even find a name you could always try some social engineering. Call reception and say something like "Hi this is Bob in Engineering, I've been trying to track down the head of customer service but nobody here can remember his name to look up his number in the system, could I get that from you real quick?"
:)
If that fails there is an uglier option. I had something simmilar happen to me, and I was able to get it resolved before needing to get ugly. However, one ultimatum I was ready to use, or at least threaten with, was informing them that you will no longer allow them to charge your credit card which will create an undesireable mess as someone has to go through the paperwork of dealing with dispute with visa/mastercard/etc. The danger of this, of course, is it getting sent to collections and having it ruin your credit so unless you are feeling particularly brave it might prudent to consult a lawyer before denying them any funds.
Just don't get yourself in trouble
"then they should have said something when we bought them."
They do say something before you buy. They say "BUY" your copy of Spiderman. They say "OWN" it today. You go into the store, and right their on the shelf there is a sign that says "SALE". You then take the item to the cashier, and pay for this item. They then give you as "SALES" reciept.
Then after all this, what do we hear? "You didn't buy the item, you licensed the item!"
The Media Barons are simply being allowed to commit fraud. Anyone that thinks for a second that the Media Barons are not intentionally using the word "Buy" and "Own" instead of "Rent" and "License" for the express purpose of tricking customers is simply being nieve. How long do you think it would take for sales to REALLY plummet if the Media Barons started using the term "license" in all of their advertising?
You need:
1. A question/problem to be resolved
2. All neccessary paperwork
3. Phone with unlimited usage (Skype also works)
1. Call up the company
2. Get a CSR in billing.
3. Explain the problem.
4. Tell them exactly what you want them to do (think about this one beforehand).
5. If they don't budge go at it for about 15-20 minutes, running around in circles if you have to, but MAKE SURE YOU DO IT FOR AT LEAST 15 MINUTES.
6. Ask them to point out the details in your contract EXPLICITLY. Ask them to show the exact wording stating something. The burden of proof is/should be on them.
7. If the problem is not resolved to your satisfaction request a supervisor. At this point you've been talking for 15-20 minutes.
8. Explain the situation again. Go through every detail. Make sure you take up as much time as you need and then some.
9. Repeat steps 4-6, if necessary - numerous times. If you have questions about specific items in the bill (e.g. specific calls on a phone bill), point out specific calls on a phone bill. AFAIK CSRs are incentivised to keep calls short. Your job is to keep them on the phone as long as possible.
10. If that doesn't work (you should be 1-2 hrs into your call) request to go one level higher.
11. Wash rinse repeat
At some point the accessible ladder will end, so pick your moves wisely.
Because the CSRs are incentivised to keep calls short, they'll normally start giving in by 1.5-2 hrs into the call.
If they offer a partial resolution you can take it or you can try to pursue the matter further. Be aware if you do the latter, you may be taking a gamble and you may not get anything at all in the end.
General tips:
1. Speak in an "attractive" voice tone (i.e. don't bark) and be polite
Note: Polite and nice are not the same thing. You don't have to be nice to them (since they're not nice to you) although most of the time it doesn't hurt but you do have to be polite to them to show the kind of respect that you would like.
2. Be persistant.
3. Know exactly what you want in advance
4. Be aware of your rights in advance and point out your rights if the other person doesn't know them. But make sure to do it in a non-intimitading way (don't threaten them with your rights).
5. Get names/employee id #s/badges/call times and dates of all people you talk to and what the resolution was. ("Can you provide a reference to this call if I have to reference it in the future?")
6. Ask for more than you want, then settle for about half to three-quarters of your questions
BTW. As an aside, if you're upgrading your cellphone outside of contract, call your cell provider and tell them you're gonna cancel. When they ask why, tell them that so-and-so is offering a deal where [you fill in the blank the deal you want, whether or not it's realistic is up to you. You have nothing to lose here]. They will probably match it. (I've had the CSR actually call me back a few days after a better deal became avaliable and asked me if I wanted to switch to that plan). Use your wits to bargain with them. If you don't like a deal that's being offered to you, tell them you'll re-think your cancellation and give them a call back to get a different CSR. Make sure you call during normal business hours so you're transferred to a US retention dep't and not an off-shore facility that can't offer you much.
You can lower your cable bill in the same manner - call and say you want to cancel, "because it's too expensive." If they don't give you the deal you want, say you'll re-think, call back.
Hope this helps (sorry for the long post)
-Palal
Hah! I knew the CRTC was useful for something other than censorship!
http://outcampaign.org/
Unless there is some substance behind them, for example you agree to buy a service verbally, then use the service and pay for it. The act of paying and using cements the contract. HOWEVER.... the TERMS of the contract are not cemented beyond 'they agree to supply it, you agreed to use it and pay for it'.
This is where EULAs and verbal crap like this come unstuck. They claim there was a term in a contract somewhere that allows them to apply the cancellation clause and claim extra money. However the burden is on them to prove it. A claim that a verbal contract was entered into is worthless, since both sides don't agree on what was said. A claim that a click through EULA was entered into is likely equally worthless, 1) since nobody reads those, 2) they're sneaked in and 3) likely accepted by the person installing it for them, not the person with the Telus agreement.
The burden is on them to prove the contract.
I also don't like your tone. It is Telus that are trying to change normal contract law here, Telus who are refusing to prove how the contract is agreed, he has the perfect right to expect Telus to conform to their agreement as he sees it, or prove the terms if they are different.
It's bad enough that we have companies trying to shove after sale pseudo contracts on us, without people making excuses for them.
I am asking seriously. If you have a link, post it.
If you've got the time and energy, promise to cost them more money than they're making from you. How? Keeping calling their service centre and tying up their call staff. Keep asking for supervisors. After a while the supervisors will get to know you. They'll WANT to get rid of you, because they'll be sick of the sight of you. Then you can bet your bottom dollar they'll find a way to let you out.
In some states, one-party consent (i.e. yours) is OK, in other states, both parties have to consent.
This is legal from the corporate standpoint because the "quality assurance purpose" notification is adequate.
Usual IANAL disclaimer.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Well I live in Romania, and here we have a similar ISP, but if we have any problems we call OPC(Oficiul pentru Protectia Consumatorului) - The Consumer Protection Office, they investigate our claim and fine them a lot, and even take them to court. Usually it only takes just to mention the name and you get the service you paid for.
No, the across-the-board "either you're rich enough to have lawyers or are a peon" doesn't apply to every capitalist country in the world, but seems to be largely a USA issue. In a sense it's the price you pay for the culture of not trusting your own government, or for that matter for ending up with a government which you can't trust. Unfortunately, then, yes, your only recourse are lawyers, and that's why in the USA they breed like rabbits.
Down here in Europe most things aren't solved by class action lawsuits, but by having a set of laws regarding the consumers' rights, and some government agencies whose job is to enforce those. If a company tried to screw me over, believe me, I wouldn't do any of the three options you describe. Instead I'd go to a consumer rights bureau ("Verbraucherzentrale") and see what they have to say about it. Because it's their job and are backed by the government. They can have a lot more teeth than a lawyer, if it's warranted.
In a sense, it's the difference between having an organized police force and wild-west each-man-for-himself vigilante justice. The USA seems still stuck at the point where your rights and protection are determined by whether you can hire a posse to fight for them. Only now it's the more expensive lawyers with ties and briefcases, instead of desperados with sombreros and Winchester guns. Most of the rest of the world moved over to more efficient model of having a centralized "police" equivalent.
And let me stress that again: it's not just that it's more fair (I could get help even if I didn't have a dime to pay for a lawyer's advice), it's also more efficient for society as a whole. You don't have to feed armies of lawyers when a handful of government officials can do the same job _and_ serve as a better deterrent. A company can imagine they'll smoke _me_ with legalese gibberish, or bully me into submission, or just hope that I don't want to pay a lawyer. But they will know from the start that they're never going to bully the government into submission, and that there'll be someone there who reads legalese as fluently as it gets and knows if what is in there is legal or not.
If you will, it's like in the police vs everyone-with-his-own-posse analogy again. A police is more efficient than everyone hiring his own desperados to guard his ranch, because it _doesn't_ have to actually send policemen to stand guard on every ranch. Just the knowing that that police force exists is enough of a deterrent for 99% of the population.
Downside: of course, you need to trust that the government is on your side and not just ruling for the highest corporate bidder. I.e., it comes in handy to have a real multi-party system where they have to work hard for their votes.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
unfortunately, modern contract law allows for such freedom of contracting in practice, and infact seems to support it, more or less for business 2 business, but i somehow doubt this contract law (in the USA) was intended for consumer services/product, or at least was a step in the right direction. in the light of the Microsoft anti-trust litigation has resulted in a legal precedent which punishes corporations for so called "bundling" of products/services, namely if this corporation is imposing a particular product(s)/service(s) in addition to the product/service that the company you are doing business with. depending on how you look at it, (wether or not you favor the ruling), the ruling as long as it is not overturned seems like it will favor the consumer in this case. but what does that mean for freedom of contract? probably dead, lets just hope for the best :)
From what I gather, Canada has a legal system based on English law. I'm located in Australia so the underlying contract principles should be similar, if not identical.
Contracts are entered into more than you imagine - you don't even need a signature. By the sounds of it, a contract was entered into even though you don't know it. They contracted into paying $x a month in return for a lend of a modem and an internet service. The exchange of money for services, and the agreement to return the modem all formed part of the contract.
What is unclear is whether the length of the contract and the exit terms are part of the contract. By the sounds of it, there was no notice of such terms in writing or verbally when the contract was accepted. Once this contract has been accepted, the company can't force any additional terms onto you (eg. contract length or exit fees) without you giving them something extra (called 'consideration' and a fundamental part of English Law contracts) and agreeing to the new contract.
There may be statutory protections offered by your country's fair trading laws - in Australia this would include the Trade Practices Act of 1974 (Cth) and state Fair Trading legislation.
Be careful about just not paying - the company might just dismiss the amount or it might be sold to a credit agency. It might put a nasty stain on their credit rating.
I have no qualifications with respect Canadian law - This does not constitute legal advice.
About a year ago, my grandparents signed up for internet service with one of the bigger ISP's (Telus). They were offered an lesser rate for the first year, followed by $10/month more for following years, as well as their DSL modem for free (to be returned when service ends). None of the documentation received with the modem indicated that any 'contract' was being entered, nor were any documents signed.
They agreed to pay the fees in exchange for internet access (and a modem). What do you think such an agreement is called? That's right, a "contract". And there's nothing dubious about it. The contract is binding for both parties.
To feign surprise that obtaining regular internet service from an ISP will result in certain obligations like, you know, paying the bills, giving back the modem, meeting certain deadlines for cancellation, and that these obligations are legally enforceable, is beyond silly.
Make shure you record all your calls to them and thiers to you. Let them know your recording the calls. Ask them if they are recording the calls; then tell them you WILL supena all the calls made (as well as all internet data pertaining to said contract.) This gets their attention. And lets them know your serious. If you get no good results; then you'll have all the calls to hand to your lawyer.
Good Luck..
I don't want a pickle; I just want a Motor-Cycle! A four foot cop arrived with a five foot gun!
I've been a loyal customer with T-Mobile cellular for the past 3 1/2 years in the United States. At the end of my last contract, in March of this year, I was ready to move on to another provider for a number of reasons. First, I had become unhappy with my particular service plan, and found the drop in the quality of customer service unacceptable. The second, and principle reason, was that I am going to spend the next year out of the country, so it would be imprudent for me to renew a service that I would not need. In anticipation of this, I spoke with them a few days before the contract expired to notify them of my intention of not renewing the contract. From the conversation I had with their representative I was told that I could continue using the phone on a monthly basis which was perfect because I was only going to be in the states until the end of May. It wasn't until April, when I recieved a bill that was far too expensive, that I realized that something was amiss. I called T-Mobile back and they claimed that I had agreed to extend my contract for another 12 months. Of course, when I heard this, I became very curious as to how and when this happened considering that the last conversation I had back in March was exactly the opposite of what they had stipulated. They claim that I agreed to a verbal contract for a year more during a phone call made a few days after I had spoken with them. The previous contract was shared with my parents and my cousin, but my phone number was the principle account. What I think happened was that my step-father made the call at 9 pm on a saturday night (I'm still young, so sat. still nights aren't wasted on the phone with customer service) and possibly renewed the contract. Even if this is the case, I NEVER agreed to anything of the sort. After many highly frustrating phone calls to T-Mobile, I realized that no headway was to be made. I spoke with both reps and supervisors unfortunately to no avail. I was threatended, and essentially called a liar. I decided to send them a letter via snail mail stating in an objective manner my frustrations and points of conflict. They continued to send bills, and just yesterday I was told by my family that T-Mobile has sent a letter saying my account was being sent to collections. My question is what is my next move? What recourse do I have against the decimation of my credit? I understand that T-Mobile is a company and it needs to make money, but completely alienating loyal customers along with threats and intimidation tactics will only achieve the opposite result. I just want this ordeal to be over with. I'm 8000 miles away and am still having to deal with these unpleasantries. They will not get another penny from me, but I would like to know how to counteract the adverse consequences of being reported to the credit bureau. Any help would be much apprectiated.
Mistlefoot wrote:
Contracts are often made over the phone or computer. Have you ever made a change to your mobile service? Or added third party long distance? You are clearly not disputing the fact that you have an agreement with Telus, you are disputing whether or not you have a commitment.
I don't know about Canadian law, but I can tell you that in the US the only verbal contract that is binding is for real estate. For just about anything else, they (the ISP) is up sh*t creek. They can bluff and blow and b*tch and whine, but ultimately, they can't hold you to a verbal "contract."
That said, it's entirely likely that this fellow did, indeed, click through their "OK" button and doesn't want to admit it because it weakens his case. Nonetheless, my attitude with ANY company that uses these kinds of intimidation is that I won't do business with them, even if they resolve the problem. This is NOT how you do business, I don't care WHO you are. If a company has to intimidate customers to keep them, there are obviously MUCH worse problems in that company than are readily apparent.
Nitewing '98
Everything works...in theory.
We got a stove that was so hot that our cupboards, surrounding the stove, were getting crispy from the heat. The store and the maker of the stove refused to let us return the stove and to refund our money. A letter and a call to our PA state attorney general...and a call from a lawyer, representing the state attorney general...and our check was in the mail, with an apology from the maker of the stove three weeks later...This cost us nothing but time, and the stamps for the letters to the state...the lawyer was paid for by the state I guess...but it sure worked.
A contract is a legal method of conning people out of their rights. The trouble is that the necessary powers of contracts are so great that in the hands of the unscrupulous they can be very damaging indeed. And it doesn't matter if they are legal or not.
Possession is nine tenths of the law, and once someone else possesses your signature on a piece of paper, they can hold it over you for the rest of your life. That's your word, your integrity, masticated down on their slimy contract, and until a judge says; clearly and unambiguously otherwise, they can throw it back in your face in the most juvenile of ways; "But YOU SAID in THIS CONTRACT....(Nyanya na nya na)".
I should know. I signed a contract once when I was twelve. The guys still claim the allegiance of my immortal soul. Never sign a contract you can avoid.
May the Maths Be with you!
If they don't have a signature or a recorded conversation where you agreed to this then you don't have a contract with them. Stop all payments at the bank, tell them to come and collect whatever they consider is "theirs", then hang up the phone. End of story.
No sig today...
Go to the company web site and get the CEOs name. Call headquarters (not the 800 No.) and ask for the CEO by name. You won't get the CEO but you usually get his secretary (AA). Tell them what your trouble is and that you aren't a happy camper. Ask for a return call from someone that has the authority to solve your problem. If you don't get an answer in a couple of days, call the provincial equivalent of the state attorney general in the US and file a complaint. Since this is a phone company they are regulated by the Canadian equivalent of the FCC and the Provincial utilities commission. These type of folks have been an great help to me on occasion. I, and others like me, once caused Century Telephone in Michigan to refund several million dollars in long distance charges to customers for preferring one company over another. So yes it does work it just takes time and perserverence.
I had an Earthlink DSL account in the US, and although I was aware through common knowledge that all local DSL carriers considered a customer to be in a contract from the time the modem connected to the line, I made a point to look for one at every point in the set-up process. The only thing that vaguely resembled legal mumbo jumbo was in the software envelope which I never used.
I had nothing but problems with the service itself and cancelled within two months. They informed me that I would be charged $150 for early termination and another $200 if I didnt return their POS modem. I told them to stuff it and I refused to pay. They sent me to a collection agency and I immediately sent a letter disputing the debt and asking for proof of contract. The collection account was wiped clean and never appeared on my credit record. I even kept their crappy modem out of principle.
Although corporations can be a brick wall to deal with, collection agencies are held to very strict regulations and a quick stroke of the pen leaves them without option. These companies think they are screwing you when they send you off to collections, but infact they are playing right into your hands.
Hi Super Nintendo Chalmers! - Ralph Wiggum
Sticking in Canada here, Rogers does something fairly similar, albeit the specifics with internet service are not shared. Their 'Better Choice Bundle' (bundling Cable, Internet, Cell Phones, Home Phone) has a verbal commitment of 2 years with the penalty being the percentage saved on each product capped at either $100 per product during the first year or $50 per product during the second year.
Where is this bundle signed? It's not. It's a verbal agreement that is documented by the representative on the account. Subsequent invoices reflect a terms of service page which refers to Rogers.com for the bundle terms and conditions. According to it, 'by using this service you agree to...'
Welcome to Canadian telecommunications companies.
(The above was of course an attempt at humour.)
It's paticularly annoying to get some clueless fool send you a contract which also has a few conditions that are illegal under consumer protection laws which they hope you will follow because they have written them in there or because it is "policy" to flout the law. In most cases if the service or goods is not as promised and you return or cancel the law says you get your money back and the policy of the company is not relevant.
No problem... Call Visa, explain the situation, dispute any existing charges you know you don't owe, and tell Visa that automated charge is no longer authorized. If they won't stop the charges, complete your dispute(s) and then cancel the card (or better, threaten to cancel the card.) You'll find that CC companies, when they have a customer with good credit/payment history on the phone are a little more flexible once you start complaining and make waves about cutting up your card...
Then when the ISP sends you a bill in the mail because your card is cancelled, you can return it to them with a threatening letter from your barrister. Something along the lines of "Please present evidence that our client signed a contract (ie. a copy of the signed contract) or stop harassing them."
I think you'll find they fold like a house of cards... There is a reason the Cell PHone companies force you to SIGN an ACTUAL contract in real life--so they can't get sued for trying to collect the "early termination" fees.
Who did what now?
That's a great theory, and I used to believe it, too. A recent encounter has introduced a lot of doubts, though: after my father received a bad DVD about a hobby from a company that was generally well regarded in the field, it turned out not to play properly. The attitude he got from the staff when he called about this was unconstructive, sometimes outright rude.
He got the local Trading Standards people involved, and the best they could do was say that the company in question was entitled to examine the merchandise before providing a refund, and that my father was obliged to send it back (at his expense in both time and money) so that could happen, with no apparent mechanism available to compensate him for this if it did turn out that the goods were faulty.
Now, letting the merchant examine the goods before refunding seems fair enough, particularly for something like a DVD that's easily ripped. However, if the merchant requires the customer to arrange the return, it seems only fair that if the goods are faulty, the merchant should also be required to compensate the customer for their time and costs returning the item. This, apparently, is not the case. As long as the rules on faulty returns are this one-sided, with the overheads falling almost entirely on the customer, all the legal safeguards about distance selling and the like aren't really worth very much other than for items of high value.
Incidentally, does anyone know the deal with returning box sets of DVDs if, several months after buying them, you discover that disc 6 of 7 doesn't play? It seems unreasonable to expect a customer to watch the entire box set within a few days of buying them, but there's also potential for abuse if a retailer must accept the set back several months later when any damage may or may not have had anything to do with the condition of the DVDs when they were sold.
For TV licences, if you pay monthly, you basically pay six months ahead. To be fair, and from recent personal experience, if you stop needing a licence at a particular address, they seem pretty good about refunding any overpaid months reasonably quickly. There have been a few horror stories about the TV licensing people in the past, mostly due to database screw-ups and/or assuming that there's no way anyone in today's society could possibly not need one (remind you of any big software firms? ;-)), but it seems like they've cleaned up their act in recent years and generally do their job pretty well now.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Just phone up the credit card company and say the card has been lost/stolen. They'll issue a new one (with a new number) and that at least should put a stop to any more charges appearing on the VISA card.
With large companies it's often easy to sue them in small claims court and win, because a no-show is a loss, and 95% of the time they will not show, and will get "sumamry judgement" made on them. For them to send a lawyer (who sometimes has to travel a few hrs to get there) for a few hours of court costs them more than they would stand to lose otherwise, even if they could win. But even after you have the judgement in hand, getting them to pay is not so easily done. It does you no good to have a court order to refund your $100 etc and terminate the contract if the company simply ignores you. From there you have to take additional steps to insure the company follows the order. This is a lot of trouble to go through, and is probably not worth your taking time off work etc to do it unless the amount you stand to gain is at least a few hundred.
I haven't followed anyone that's tried to chase after a company that ignored the court order. I assume at that point you have to get a real lawyer and go after them for failure to obey a court order? At that point though you should be entitled to attourney's fees and some cash for your bother?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I've some bad news for you, I fear...
While I am not Canadian, I feel I have a bit of understanding of the law - at least here in the States (and no, IANAL).
I think you will find that the "contract" that Telus holds with you to be valid under the concept of "partial performance". Here is how it works...
Say you have a "verbal" (or virtual) contract with someone to provide you with widgets. Say that the first year of the contract, the widgets are $5.00 a piece and the second year and beyond, the widgets are $20.00 a piece. The contract term is for 4 years. You verbally (or virtually) agree to the contract and start taking delivery of the widgets happily paying $5.00 a piece for them. At the second year of the contract, you are shocked to find that the price increased to $20.00 a widget. Since there is no physical contract to refer to, you sue to get the price returned to $5.00 (the bit you don't mention is how you didn't remember the price increase after the first year). The court throws your case out because they find that while there is no writing, your ordering of and receipt of widgets, and your paying of those widgets amounts agreeing to the terms of the contract (or agreement as some would call it). Since there is nothing to contradict the bit about the price increasing, that term is valid. If you didn't like that term, you shouldn't have induced "performance" of the contract on it's terms.
You are essentially in the same position here. You can't just walk away from a contract - even a verbal/virtual one - once you start executing it without penality.
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
What happens when grandma gets DSL, has her grandkid come over and hook it up.. she does not give her grandson power of attourney and he clicks OK without reading when setting up the account. How is grandma in any legal binding contract?
Is it too fucking hard to write out the word "with?"
Slashdot: 24 hours behind every other site or your money back!
I've been here and here is the answer that worked for me.
Write a letter contesting the bill, stating your reasons, clearly indicate a means of redress (i.e. a written letter detailing the type of data they don't have time to produce but a reasonable person would accept as necessary for them to make their case), and then change the account number of the credit card they may be charging and close your account they are debiting (banks will transfer your history making this a way of changing your account number). This is what will happen - they will bill you, they will dun you, they will sell your name to bill collectors who will threaten you with finely crafted threatening letters and phone calls calculated to get under your skin. Despite all this ultimately you will not pay a cent because there are a lot of other fish in the sea and just as it is too expensive for you to sue the same applies to them.
When you are dunned it is actually good news because dunning firms have fewer resources and usually follow a script; emphasis on usually. When you get a dunning letter print out a form letter you have prepared and mail it back within 30 days requiring proof of the debt and disputing the payment. For dunning calls use caller ID and skip the phone calls you can't identify - let them leave a message. Get good at checking and returning messages so people understand leaving messages works.
Check your credit history occassionally and write a letter to a credit reporting agency indicating any errors (e.g. an entry for a bill for which you are, in fact, not liable). These errors will be removed for a few months - then send another letter. Keep it up for a few years and you are done.
Yes, it takes years for this to wash out of the system, because you are dealing with a machine that calculates marginal returns and acts accordingly. Just don't be a jerk while you are doing this. Stay polite and civil and they won't get angry enough to make an example of you.
If it ever does come to court you will have lots of documents showing you tried to resolve the matter in good faith but they were unresponsive to your reasonable requests (i.e. the letter I mention in the first sentence and all the letters you wrote subsequently).
Remember "the nail that stands up is hammered flat." Don't attract attention to yourself or you will get burned with this approach.
And remember this is my story so your results will definitely differ. Best of luck!
One by one, the city's independant ISP's went out of business.
The USA seems still stuck at the point where your rights and protection are determined by whether you can hire a posse to fight for them. Only now it's the more expensive lawyers with ties and briefcases, instead of desperados with sombreros and Winchester guns. Most of the rest of the world moved over to more efficient model of having a centralized "police" equivalent.
Actually, we have offices in every state here in America, run by state / federal governments, to aid consumers with problems like these.
It's not America's fault that this guy is ignorant of their existence. A 2 second google search would have revealed this to him. Maybe that's the problem with America - we turn to Slashdot for legal advice.Also, dude, you watch too much American TV.
This type of a contract is not valid under English Law.
Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking - you can only be bound by a contract if you are aware of the terms BEFORE you use the service.
I hate Telus. They always try to force hidden terms on you. The contract WAS on the Telus setup CD, I had this same issue with them. However, not only is the Telus setup CD NOT required, Telus' own customer service reps recommended that I not use it. The exact thing one guy said was "Take the CD and throw it out the window, it just messes things up". So, indirectly, a representative of Telus told me to not read the contract, yet they want to hold me to their terms.
:-(
Well, I paid the cancellation fee to cancel the internet and switched to Shaw, and I then proceeded to cancel my telephone service (Telus' big money maker) and switch it to Shaw's new VOIP service as well. Shaw has NO contracts, I could cancel my service today if I wanted. Their customer service is awesome and friendly, Telus' is far from. Telus also only allows one MAC address to connect to their service, meaning that if I unhook one computer and hook another one up, it won't work unless I phone Telus. Shaw has no such limitation whatsoever (of course a router gets rid of this problem).
I also don't like Telus because they are the company that, while their employees were on strike, blocked the Union's website so that NO Telus subscribers could even access the site. It would be nice if Shaw could put them out of business in the near-term...but that is unlikely, Telus is much bigger than Shaw
When I signed on to Verizon DSL, it was $35/mo. for their basic (768d) service. About 6 months later they notified me that they would be bumping me up to 3Mbit and lowering the price to $30. "No problem," says I.
About 3 months after that I noticed they were offering the old 768kbit that I had before at $15/mo. "Well shoot," I say, "I don't need this bandwidth, gimme the cheaper price!" Now I knew my year contract was not up with them (yes I was aware of it when I signed on), but they still wanted to charge me a ~$70 fee for switching to the new contract. I reluctantly agreed to this, because it made logical sense to me.
Guess what.
The fee never came, and I didn't complain.
Weird, huh?
-K
US corporate interests (think of the massive Zaibatsu that chivvied Hiro Hito into starting WWII) have got so much power they've even gotten legislation to bar many class action lawsuits from state court. Are you a little guy victimized by widespread corporate contract oppression? Your burden just got a little heavier. Now, it's a Federal Case.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
If you paid through a credit card, you could tell the credit card company not to honor any charges from Telus.
What they can do at that point is refer the cancellation fee to a collection agency (which may not be likely if the fee is not very large). What they will definitely do is report it to a credit agency. If like many older people, you grandparents have very solid credit, and they don't need credit that much (they aren't likely to be looking for a mortgage or a car loan), then the impact on them might be minimal.
But your grandparents probably will not like the idea. Nor would I advise you to take this course of action.
What you have here is version of the classic Mexican standoff. It's not really worth their while to come after your grandparents. It's not really worth your grandparents' time. Really, really, really not worth their time.
One of the things that you have to realize about getting old is you don't have that much life left. If you make a mistake, like getting in to a contract that turns out to be unfavorable, you have to judge whether the money you might save is worth the aggravation, given that you may have lived 90% of the portion of your lifespan where you can do things you enjoy, like golf, travel, and so forth.
Then of course, there is the question of what is right. Maybe your grandparents did enter into a contract that they should be bound to honor.
Of course, I have no sympathy with the telecoms in these situations. Telecom companies are particular offenders when it comes to the elderly. They have product lines where the differences between products are nearly incomprehensible. Older people don't have time for this shit, and the companies take advantage. Some elders are still paying a phone rental fee on their phone bill, when they could simply tell Lucent to come and take the phone away. Lucent won't of course, but they will take the fee off their bill.
My advice would be to pay the cancellation fee and kiss Telus goodbye forever.
It may be that the cancellation fee is more than the cumulative monthly difference between Telus and a comparable service. You might consider keeping the service then, but unless the cancellation fee is huge, I'd advise against it. We aren't talking life changing amounts of money here, like the price of a house. So why schedule a period of burning anger and resentment for your grandparents every month when they get their bill, when you can get it over with now? Wash your hands of Telus, then make sure your grandparents make all their telecom decisions only after consulting you. Money is only for making your life better, it's foolish to let insignificant amounts of it make you miserable.
Just be glad they didn't by a timeshare.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Actually, I have three local telcos to pick from: Verizon, Cox, Cavalier - and those are just the ones I know about. I went with Cox as they have their own wires (coax), and aren't dependent on Verizon for that - and they are cheap. I never had any billing problems with Verizon, but their prices were high - and their wires kept going down. Telephone over coax is more robust than TV/internet over coax. The only time Cox telephone has been down was when Verizon workers laying fiber dug in the wrong spot and cut the coax.
1. Keep all communication in the snail mail media. If possible, use verifiable mail.
2. Dispute the charge with the credit card company. If you can't separate the phone bill from the DSL, setup a new account at your parents house under YOUR name, as totally separate service. You may not be able to keep the old phone number.
3. I don't recall what jurisdiction you are in (not sure if you mentioned it), but Canada has small claims courts. Here is the website for Ontario's information regarding small claims courts. You file against Telus for the value of the disconnection fee, x2 for your wasted time, and add on any months of interrupted service. You might not get all of that, but then again, you might. Filing in small claims is general simple, and inexpensive; you don't need a lawyer, you can represent yourself. If Telus sends a lawyer, odds are that their lawyer per hour is more expensive than your disconnection fee, and they'll still probably loose. If they don't send a lawyer, you win by default. Also, whatever you want the judge to review, document in pictures. If you want to show that there isn't a contract shown to you, "install" the DSL on a clean system, and take screenshots at every step in the procedure. Small claims judges are pretty reasonable, and you'll tend to win stuff like this. Telus won't be able to show them a signed contract, or a recorded acceptance of contract terms (verbal), so you'll win if you can explain the situation to the judge.
Ultimately, your position is very strong, except that they can hold your phone hostage (since your phone provider is your ISP). I'm not sure if Canada requires companies to provide phone service, so you may want to investigate that; as it is, I believe that Telus can just cancel your phone service no matter what, saying they don't want to do business with you. You'll have to check Telus's franchise agreements (Here I'm bullshitting; I really don't know ANYTHING about Canada's regulatory structure for utilities, and unfortunately I don't have much time to research it).
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
First call VISA and tell them you lost your credit card, so they'll stop the old number and issue you a new one. Now Telus will not be able to charge their fees to your account, because you won't give them the new number. IF they won't send you a bill in the mail, so you can only pay for the services requested, get a cell phone and cancel the land line. The POTS companies don't yet realize that you don't need them anymore.
You know I recently had this same conversation with a guy in my neighborhood.
This crackhead that goes around begging for $10. When he needs a fix bad enough he offers to mow yards. If that still doesn't work, he seems to just pick a yard and start mowing and then demand money.
I told him the exact same thing you should tell them. I never agreed to give you that money. Just because you say I owe you money doesn't make it true. (then I said leave and never come back or I'm calling the police but that part doesn't seem to apply here lol)
Call them and tell them that. Don't let them talk to you about cancellation contracts. Tell them you never agreed nor were informed about a cancellation fee, and that you do not intend to pay the cancellation fee or pay any more fees for the ISP, regardless of what they might think you owe them. Tell them you'll pay the telco bill if they seperate it, and that if they refuse to do so you intend to seek council. Try to say all the above without letting them speak. Then call VISA and tell them to block the authorization.
About that last part on the telco, I don't know what the equivalent in your municipality is, but here in the US, if a utility company is the only company that offers that service in the area, it is illegal for them to refuse service to anyone. They can demand inordinately high deposits, but they can't refuse service. Each municipality has a local board meant to enforce these laws, usually called the Utility Comission or Utility Board.
If they keep dicking you around, find out what the local equivalent is. Call them, explain the situation, see if you can get them in a conference call with the ISP. In most municipalities that utility comission has only one administrative duty; to revoke the ability of corrupt utilities to make a profit off of their citizens, by pulling their monopoly. It doesn't happen often, but most companies in my experience will gladly roll over before risking pissing off the local utilities board...
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
Often times Customer dis-service personnel are authorized to act or escalate only when certain key phrases are used. One I know of is 'misleading'. I have used it several times and suddenly, magically things began to happen (anyone else know any useful phrases?).
Other advice:
1) Contact the FCC or other national communications regulatory agency and complain
2) Contact your state or province communications regulatory agency and complain.
3) Contact any other local board which may have authority over the contract, e.g., local utility board.
4) Contact your congressional delegation or MP.
5) If the provider is bidding out a job for a public agency, e.g. to become th ISP or comm. carrier for you local city, show up at meetings and bad mouth them for shady practices. Create a suituation where an investigation must be started before they can get the contract.
All of this can be done either before, after or in conjuction with a lawyer.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
That's not the idea. You can't have it "set up." You had the child configure it and at no point were you ever aware of the contractual arrangement.
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
There was a lot of this happening in the late 90's when internet companies were using telephone billing. Basically, as them for proof. If it was over the phone, they needed to record your conversation affirming that you entered into the contract. Adding terms to the back of a manual (aka a shirnk wrape license) has never been shown in court as being binding.
When they can't offer proof file a formal complaint with your Attorny General. Usually a formal inquiry from the AG office gets fasts results.
It should get their attention.
= E
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/RapidsCCM/Register.asp?lang
Also get a credit check on yourself now so that if they try to screw around with that you can dispute it. If the money is important you don't need a lawyer, do the small claims court thing.
DOCUMENT everything, who you were talking to, when, what was discussed, EVERYTHING.
When in doubt check with a lawyer, the money spent will be well worth it.
Panic now, beat the rush!
Unless Florida is even further gone than I suspect, you still need a meeting of the minds for a contract to exist. What makes an oral contract so hard to enforce is that, without some sort of documentation or other evidence, each party is generally considered the most reliable witness to their own state of mind.
Absent some evidence that both parties understood and agreed to the terms, there isn't any reason to suspect they entered into a contract.
--MarkusQ
In the US there exists a means for dealing with such small claims. Small claims court generally doesn't require a lawyer and you must agree to accept the judgement of the court (this is the basis of all those idiotic court tv shows).
This sound exactly like the sort of complaint that should be taken to small claims court...does Canada not have such a thing?
Incorporate and run your affairs through a holding company. That's called "making the system work for you."
Anyone can incorporate a company in the U.S. with a few simple forms. You can buy a kit at any bookstore.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Well, look at the bulk of the messages in this thread alone. The "unless you have lawyers (or can bluff that you have them), you're screwed" theme seems to be the dominant mindset. I don't know if those consumer protection offices don't work, or people don't know they exist, or if it's just the same old mindset of distrusting the government and any of its agencies. There must be _some_ logical explanation.
But it's hard not to notice the common theme that everyone would rather call the lawyer first, and everything else is presented as barely some place to ineffectively vent some steam if you can't afford a lawyer. At least that's the impression I'm left with. By comparison, if I were to tell any of my co-workers or neighbours something like "damn, my ISP is trying to make me pay for something that wasn't in the contract", the first answer would be almost invariably "go to the consumer protection bureau."
It's a pretty strong contrast, from where I stand.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
No, the across-the-board "either you're rich enough to have lawyers or are a peon" doesn't apply to every capitalist country in the world, but seems to be largely a USA issue. In a sense it's the price you pay for the culture of not trusting your own government, or for that matter for ending up with a government which you can't trust. Unfortunately, then, yes, your only recourse are lawyers, and that's why in the USA they breed like rabbits.
That's also why we still have our right to keep and bear arms. After a while, someone will have had enough bullshit dumped on them, and they'll twist off and use violence to obtain a little revenge-justice. The media and the government get really freaked out when this happens, and so does a substantial portion of the liberal left citizenry... but to tell the truth, there is actually HUGE portion of our population -- not just the NASCAR crowd -- that secretly cheers and dances with joy (although they'll never admit it) whenever someone who really deserves it is on the receiving end of a little shotgun justice.
Such is human nature.
Unsolicited commercial faxxing is illegal in many parts of the world- at least sans the USA.
Now lets recall that this is:
- solicited: they asked to get copies of the receipts, multiple times.
- non-commercial: this is an individual who is a customer of the company, sending requested information.
While all you want, but it sounds like that wouldn't last long in court anyway
-M
when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
Yup, there oughta be a law.
One that says in situations where one side is presenting terms on a take it or leave it basis,
that they must have a contract describing all the terms, with a real signature on it.
Let's put an end to these stupid EULAs, and get some new laws.
-- Should you believe authority without question?
Easiest way to work things out with companies that don't want to acknowledge that you do not want them to bill your visa any longer is to call visa and report your card lost.
New card, new number voila. Instead of calling them, they will call you.
It's much easier to sort that way. It's worked for me everytime.
Get them to provide written proof of your grandparent's consent. If it was a webform, get them to prove the exact time, date, and IP address of consent. The more proof the better - MAC address of the (cable/DSL) modem, computer logs proving when that modem's MAC address was registered to the ISP network, etc.
Oh wait, they can't provide written proof? Then there was no consent, there was no valid and legal agreement. What occurred was merely payment for services rendered, like paying a barber for a haircut or a grocery store for food. Check with your lawyer of choice, but the burden of proof is probably on the ISP to prove that an agreement existed (and was documented) rather than on your grandparents.
(According to your story, anyways.)
The real question is if you're willing to pay some money to a lawyer to take it to court, or pay less money to the ISP to resolve the problem. Depends on how you value money and your faith in the legal system.
You mathematically owed 0.045 and you payed 1 and complained about a bill the next year?
Sir, I commend you for being so very Dutch.
The CRTC (Canadian Radio and Telecommunications Commission), among other things, regulates telephone and internet service provision in Canada. The last time I had shitty service from my ISP (the name starts with TEL and ends with US), I simply filed a complaint with the CRTC and the problem was solved the following day.
The CRTC can and does transform complaints into hefty fines. Go socialist legacy!
What you want to be looking at is consumer protection legislation. I would bet that Telus can point to this charge *somewhere* in the crap they send out as standard policy to all new customers, therefore it is probably in the contract. However this does not stop it being deceptive, and that is where they get nailed.
1 944193912&pagename=CBSC_ON%2Fdisplay&lang=en&c=Reg s
Check out this site:
http://www.cbsc.org/servlet/ContentServer?cid=108
The Competition Act is a federal act, so it does apply to you.
A little summary...
Competition Act contains provisions addressing false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices in promoting the supply or use of a product or any business interest. All representations, in any form whatever, that are false or misleading in a material respect are subject to the Act. If a representation could influence a consumer to buy or use the product or service advertised, it is material.
If there is a cancelation fee that was buried, then that is misleading.
Find yourself a copy of the act, find which section it is. Then call them back up and explain that you would like the fee reversed. When they say no, quote the relevant section, specify the act and say that you beleive that they have breached the Act, please reverse the fee or you will lodge a complaint with the Competition Bureau of Canada. Quoting a specific section, and the specific words in the act will probably get results. If it does not, then call the Competition Bureau of Canada & lodge a complaint. Even if they do reverse the fee, you may want to lodge a complaint anyway.
I don't know about the specifics of the Canadian Bureau, but the New Zealand equivalent loves going after telecoms and the likes. I suspect that their reasoning is like this: Any practice impacts a lot of people, the telecom should know better, and because it affects a lot of people, the courts (and they do prosecute) levy large fines, which gets the attention of a lot of people, including many Mom & Pop businesses who may otherwise try the same tricks. Besides *everyone* hates Telecom.
Another little point to remember is that conditions put in place AFTER the contract is entered into are NOT part of the contract. The click through after you have installed the modem is probably not enforceable as part of the contract, but is misleading even if it is enforceable.
IANAL, but I did get my law degree (in NZ). From what I have seen, the US really lags behind the Commonwealth countries in consumer protection legislation, and this shows in the US advice people have been giving you.
Zapsavings: Simply calculate how much energy efficient bulb
Pretty much all the companies suck in one way or another. You have to be a smart shopper, and "Caveat Emptor" has never applied more than today. If you consider that all these stores deal in merchandise that devalues the moment it ships, you realize that it's no wonder they try everything they can to stay in business, much less make a profit. (Yes, I'm aware of the profits some of these bozos make, but it's not from my purchases... heh heh;)
In general, though, I tend to favor one set of stores over others (I happen to be fortunte to live in an area that has multiple stores of most of the electronics/tech sellers within just a 5 mile radius of my house, although only 1 microcenter. This means I have to search multiple ads for best deals if I really want to save money. It's lead to the purchase of a nice laser printer for $8, for example.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Here in Canada the banks will tell you that you agreed to allowed the company to make auto withdrawals, and therefore they have permission. Furthermore, they cannot cancel this as the cancellation has to come from the company.
Visa will tell you the same thing.
Easiest way is to use visa for auto monthly charges and just report the card lost when you have an issue trying to cancel an auto monthly charge. It's the only surefire way that works.
I haven't seen anyone suggest contacting the office of the provincial solicitor general or attorney general or whatever. They sometimes take an interest in dubious practices by large businesses, especially businesses that have a near-monopoly position.
IANAL, but my daily radio listening includes a certain consumer champion.
As others have said, the burden of providing documentation is (or, at least, should be) on the telco.
That said, you don't want to leave this unanswered, even if you have the technical right to do so. They put a charge on your card, you dispute, they trash your credit, it just becomes an ugly mess, not that it isn't already.
If you were here in the US, I'd recommend going to the state office in charge of regulating the telco's legal monopoly status. I'm just going to have to guess that your city, province, or other branch of government has a similar office. Your library (or local politician's office) should be helpful here.
Now, the regulators probably won't leap into action right away, but when you tell the telco about the complaint, they should be a bit more willing to listen.
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
First of all, it's not my account, it's my grandparents' account, not mine. Secondly, if you have a supplied modem it must be returned at the end of service, but if you buy one they credit the cost to your bill and you still get to keep it (which I recommend, last time I bought I modem I got the credit and due to a deal at the time a $50 gift certificate at Future Shop). In other words, in one or another, the DSL modem is also free
/w Roger's (the contract was for modem rental then, not TOS).
Third, the terms were not described very well in this case. Maybe they did happen to explain it to you, but in this case it wasn't explained. The modem documentation didn't have anything mentioning the fee, and the OCA screens were also generic at that point in time (maybe they've since changed). Given that the modem does come with various documentation etc, how hard would it be to have the paperwork provided outlining the 'contract' to be signed at either the time Telus supplied the modem (or if buying, at the point of purchase). This is what has happened with my cellphone contract, and was back when Shaw was
Fourth, there's been a lot of doublespeak on the phone, and reps contradicting each other. In the early calls, they were told they could switch to "high-speed lite" (cheaper, slower, but probably fine for their needs) but they would have to be locked in for another three years starting again. A subsequent rep said that wouldn't involve a lock-in, and when they were discussing it and he pulled up their file, he suddenly had to "leave and call them back." Seems that the file is flagged, as nobody has recieved a call from any reps nor the manager call that was promised.
As for making a change to my mobile or long distance service, yup done both lots. The difference is that my mobile phone has a signed contract, given to me for reading at the time I got the phone, and outlining the terms. I am also able to change the plans etc on my phone without having to restart the contract from scratch or any similar stupidity. As for long distance, when I did have a landline I was free to come and go as I pleased from any given plan, and never once did I have to sign anything for changing plans nor was I locked in to a term.
I notice that you have not suggested paying the $10 more per month that you saved. I noticed that you aren't suggesting you pay for the modem you have been 'renting'. When you were saving money each month over a Telus subscriber like me I'm guessing you never once considered Telus dubious.
So again, though this isn't my account, but I was present when it was setup. Given the lack of notification at that time, and given the current track record of call-backs and/or contradictory doublespeak from the managers and phone reps, I don't give a damn about the discount so long as the terms are presented in a straightforward and honest manner, which they haven't been in this case up to this point.
Ask to speak ot thier legal dept.
Screw the 'Supervisors'.
IF they won't let you get a lawyer.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Did I mention that the ISP is also the local telco, and thus holds the account on the landline (which they have attached to the DSL account). Currently there aren't any real alternatives other than a somewhat unpredictable VOIP system from another provider that I'm not about to saddle my non-technical grandparents with...
However, given that they have refused to remove the internet portion from billing to Visa and do direct-billing, this still might be an issue to be taken up with the credit-card companies.
You think the credit card companies are on your side huh? Only if you are a 'good' costumer. I had a card that I got with no annual fee specifically as a fallback for emergencies (stolen wallet or whatever). Then all the sudden I get a bill with an annual fee charged and a 'terms of service' chance notice. So I call them up to cancel the card and they offer to lower my interest rate and I say "no just cancel the card I don't want an annual fee" and they say 'ok but you'll still have to pay the charge for the annual fee' and so say something like "bullshit" and the guy helpfully explains that that's how it works and so I sarcastically say "oh reall well why does it say on the back of the terms of service change that if I don't agree I can cancel my card and not pay the annual fee?" and then they finally cancelled it without a charge -- I figured they deserved a little angst for arguing with me about a wanting to close my account and trying to scam me out of some money.
Another time, at a point of sale, I was given the chance to "apply" for a credit card in exchange for a deferred bill for what I was buying. I wasn't able to buy the items with my credit card because it had been temporarily disabled until I called them because I had been buying thing for a new job (so when I actually needed a credit card it didn't work). I was going to go to the bank and come back with cash, but instead I actually read the contract on the form and it did not obligate me to take their credit service, but by activating the card by calling the number on the card they sent I would agree to the terms. But I never activated the card. So then when I paid the deferred charge they tried to add finance charges and whatnot. Needless to say this took a lot of calls and letters to resolve. Note that this company has since changed their agreement form so you agree to the account at the first step (before ever even seeing the actual rates you'll get) so I wouldn't try this.
Credit card companies are on not on your side, they just want to make money any scummy way they can. Just because some company rightfully got the brunt of it doesn't make them your friends.
As i said, if you dont rent it out and it stands empty you are stil liable. most rental contracts incorporate making the tenant liable for all charges on the property, which includes CT etc- this is what i am doing at the moment, the people i rent are not liable as by signing the contract *i* am liable.
and they do pressure you into paying by DD, my local one anyway - they made some payment errors on my account (crediting the prior years account with current payments. idiots), and after i got a court summons (yikes!) I got angry with them and demanded an apology.
The letter started "if you had paid by direct debit this would not have happened...."
it got shredded.
Actually, the funny thing is that I used to love Telus and hate Shaw. About 5-6 years ago (or however long it was when Shaw was still hooked up with Roger's video) I had a Shaw account and the speed was crappy+unpredictable (massive variation depending on local area usage, no controls), the billing process was incredibly screwed up ('credits' never seemed to show up on the bill), and the phone system sucked.
:-)
Getting my initial connection with Shaw a few months ago, I wasn't entirely impressed with their system for scheduling a setup (you're supposed to wait for them, and they missed me twice), but I got past the initial steps their actual technician was extremely polite, informative, and helpful. Heck, he even gave me his cell number as he understood I had to get to work and he wasn't sure about the initial connection. Since setup, my Shaw billing has been correct (got my credits), and the service has been reliable and fast. When I moved after my first month they transferred my connection without issues (or charges) and the only weirdness was that there were two lines in my new place and we had to figure out the one for cable (apparently there was a dish at one time too)
Now forwarding to Telus. Initial setup was really good. In the last few years the service has noticably started to suck. When I moved my business-grade account to a new address, they screwed up the install date. Then, they lost the records. Then they setup they connection, and 3-4 days later completely disconnected me when they got the order to disconnect the previous account late. Another 3-4 days wait-time to get back up, speed issues, and billing headaches make me view Telus as a sinking ship.
In short, it seems that ISP suckage varies greatly from time-to-time, and the concept of being locked in for 3 years to a company which can go from good to complete shit is not a good concept. For the moment I'd recommend Shaw, but be careful if you live around student dorms etc as the bandwidth leeches tend to pull from cable's overall performance
According to the law here in the US, a phone company or cable company cannot disconnect your service for refusal to pay attached services provided by 3 rd party companies. Now I don't really know if this DSL company is seperate company just billing thru your phone company or just a different department of your phone company you didnt mention that... however if its seperate company you can just pay your phone bill minus the DSL fee (down to the exact cent) and refuse to pay it. In the US again.. they can never disconect your phone services for not paying the 3rd party. Of course you might want to tell them your doing this and give them the option to faithly tell the 3rd party to go to hell, chances are they won't as most phone companies dont care, and according to US law while they don't have to take off the charges they disconnect you for them and in most cases can't even report it to the credit bureau. Now This is in United states and I can only guess if something similiar is in place for canada, alot of things are similiar but I'm afraid canadian bells and other monopolistic companies aren't held to the same standards if I remember some past stories on the issues.
..I cant remember the name its a gov't panel that oversees municiple company fair practices.
If all else fails, tell your card company they are drawing under to give you a new account nbr, that will put a short stop to the reoccuring billing, pay a laywer $75(wild guess) to send a nasty gram and if that fails you could always complain to your equivlent of
FIRST off... I don't know where you were getting some of that information in your post.
1: The monthly price you pay for your protection plan STAYS THROUGHOUT THE COMMITMENT (hence: "Rate Protection Plan").
2: They have been offering free products with the internet service now for quite some time (for new subscribers, but you might be able to argue if you're a longterm customer). Say Joe signs up for the 3yr commitment, gets the free Computer (that's what they are giving away now), and quits after a month. In the end he pays ~$240 (I beleive it is), which basically pays for that computer.
Also: When does the cancellation fee not apply?
The cancellation fee does not apply if:
* You are moving within Alberta or British Columbia and TELUS cannot provide high speed Internet at your new address (see above).
* Due to technical limitations or because TELUS was unable to provide your service within the first 20 days. In these situations you will need to return your modem to TELUS before we can discontinue the service charge on your account.
If I'm not mistaken, if you're in a "CONTRACT" with a cellular company, they don't give a damn where you move to (out of their service region) without paying a penalty.
To sum this all up... You get the modem for free (and you DO NOT have to give it back)
So please, before ranting on a company, get the facts straight. Thank you =)
Just go to the Better Business Bureau and lodge a complaint. That worked for me in getting Hydro Ottawa to behave and remove all late payment fees on my accounts after I had stopped paying my bills until the dispute was resolved. From the time of launching the complaint it took about a month for the matter to be resolved. No serious company wants to see unresolved complaints on their BBB records.
You can find them online at http://lookup.bbb.org/
Good luck resolving this situation amicably.
First: IANAL.
Second: Consider the logic that may well be applied if you 'win' the point and are not bound by a contract. If you don't have a contract, and therefore contracted rate, for their ISP service, but you agree that you have been using it, then what rate should you have been charged? Obviously you only got the lower rate because they believed you were under a contract for a specific time period. If that's not the case, then they must have mistakenly under-billed you for services rendered. Thus, they may well decide to retro-bill you for the services you used, at the highest rate possible.
Just use care, getting out of a 'dubious' contract might not always be the best of positions to be in.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
Living in Canada as well, why worry about Telus being the telco provider? You have a few other options here... 1. Rogers http://www.rogers.ca/ 2. Vonage http://www.vonage.ca/ 3. Shaw Digital Phone http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/ProductsServices/DigitalP hone/
Good luck.
I had a problem with Bell Canada's Sympatico service and a "cancellation fee". They had this promotion, where you got a discount on your cell phone if you signed up for one of these "bundles". But they didn't tell you there was a 2-year contract and a cancellation fee; and at the time, you couldn't see the details on their web site without Internet Explorer or Windows or Flash or something, I wasn't prepared to figure out what I needed--the page just came up blank.
So, when I got the paperwork in the mail (at least they sent paperwork in the mail), I read the terms, and saw the 2-year agreement. Since I wanted to change ISPs to one that didn't suck (static IP available, inbound port 25 available, no broken proxy cache on 80, &c.) in the near future, I didn't sign.
But they still tacked on the cancellation fee to my phone bill when I cancelled Sympatico. And calls to customer service did get them to admit they had no contract, and it was wrong... and it was still there the next month. And the next month.
So I bundled up all the paperwork, wrote a letter describing the situation, and a demand something be done. I sent the whole mess to all the non-billing addresses I could find for Bell (two, one in Ontario, one in Quebec), and the CRTC in Ottawa.
Very next month everything was fixed.
If you go this wrong, make sure you indicate on the letter to Telus that you are copying the CRTC, and indicate to the CRTC that they are receiving a copy of a letter you sent to Telus. The CRTC will not help if you have not taken steps to contact the telecommunications company first.
I dealt with much the same thing with Primus here in Canada last week.
You know how you deal with that? Big companies like Telus are usually publically traded. Either that, or they're members of some large organisations that publish their membership records.
Find the e-mail address and/or phone number of a VP or a CEO/COO/CFO. Call them and/or e-mail them. You instantly start costing the company more than your problem is worth wasting the VPs time, because they're paid hundreds of dollars an hour.
They will find someone who will make your problem go away almost instantaneously, if for no other reason than it's not worth it to fight it out with you.
I e-mailed Primus' VP of residential services, and bitched about all the nonsense going on. I got a phone call the next day from their manager of customer relations & collections. She took care of all of my issues, and then some, and then switched my billing plan to 'mail only' even though they technically don't offer it.
I work for a company that does such practices, and it's all calculated risk.
At the end of the day:
#1 the Attorney General for your state is your friend. File a complaint, it's easy and fun.
#2 Charge back 4 teh win! Flip out on your bank if it's a bank draft, demand a charge back. Call your visa card holder and demand a charge back, or you will have your card canceled.
#3 Demand that your credit card company issue you a new card with a new number. Tell them you lost it if you have to.
#4 If you didn't sign anything, tell them you want to listen to the voice recording of your authorization, or go down to your bank and have your bank call and request the same thing.
#5 File a complaint with the state-level department of consumer affairs. Don't write a dumb-ranting letter, but a very detail oriented letter of what is going on and why you are being screwed.
As others have said the life-blood of these companies staying in business is (not money surprisingly), lack of Attorney General complaints and lack of credit card charge backs.
Usually if the chargebacks go over 5%, VISA will close their account. (Doesn't matter who it is, even Telus). The problem is for every 1 person that charges back, there are 1000 people that don't.. so a large account like that would need a VERY high # of chargebacks to justify it.
Don't worry about being sent to collections, you can simply send a letter to the credit bureau demanding to see proof of the contract/debt and the fair collection act should support you through that.
These guys know you will scream and yell, and supervisors won't help you. You have to go for their nuts, as I have detailed above if you want results.
These days you get cheap internet and digital phone just as well from Shaw, at least in Edmonton.
Think about that again. When you tell someone to go and buy a new hard drive for their computer, where do they go? West coasters have Fry's (sorry don't know about all that hoopla). On the east, we have CompUsa and Best Buy. Best Buy only comes into mind because of their viral advertising campaign. Other than that, your average joe schmoe isn't going to research Pricewatch for the best price.. they will head to the brick-and-mortar store named CompUSA.
Where I live, Minneapolis/St Paul, we have another place to go, Micro Center. It has locations from California to NY and Mnneasota to Florida and is expanding. I don't know about their reputation but I've found their employees generally know computers. There's also Circuit City as well as the office supply chains.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I have some sympathy for your story because the individuals were elderly and as such are in a demographic that is frequently taken advantage of. However, Telus has offered this program for several years now, and they don't try to mask it or hide it as much as other major telecoms will.
d o They aren't hiding (much) and they make it fairly obvious what you are getting into. They also offer the option to not get the free stuff or the 3-year protection plan and they don't make it difficult for you to do so.
If you sign up for Telus internet service you are typically offered two things:
- the option for free stuff (modem, ipod, monitor, etc.)
- a 2 or 3 year 'Rate Protection Plan'
Both of those should set off alarm bells.
If a company is offering you free goods - it's not free. Always ask why it's free. This has been true forever and your grandparents should have been aware of this.
If a company offers a deal that includes a specified time in the agreement, it's a fixed term contract. There is no reason why a company would specify a time unless you are signing a fixed term contract.
To add to that, all of the literature on the rate plans clearly indicates that 'some conditions apply.'
You can see their rate plans here: http://www.mytelus.com/internet/highspeed/prices.
All-in-all, your Grandparents signed up for a service and signed up for a contract. They weren't tricked or lied to, but they may have been taken advantage of. Sadly, taking advantage of people that don't know better is not a criminal offence, it's just our world works.
In this world, nothing is certain but death and... cell phone contracts. In addition to dealing with the death of a loved one, this user found out that a death certificate wasn't enough to terminate a contract.
What about when the operator is an idiot and doesn't cough up all the information.... you make a decision based upon your questions and obvious commonsense .... when you encounter a problem and contact them they claim you must have been advised correctly (and of course there's never a recording available - even tho when I worked at Onetel every phone call was recorded and securely stored digitally).... I've had this happen once thankfully only to the tune of $170 out of pocket....
My advice to the original poster would be to have VISA assign you a new CC number - at least stops them continuing billing.
So here in Holland they legalized it: If you pay a reasonable fee (about $0.06 per page), you can have your copy. They appointed an organization to collect those payments. Fine.
While I commend Holland for being a bit more enlightened regarding copies than other countries... six cents per page, with you supplying the media, is a "reasonable" fee? This is much more than the retail price of many books (even considering that an A4 page can hold two or even four pages of a paperback), and retail prices include the media, the printing, the salaries of the bookshop employees, the expenses of shipping it to the bookshops, and the author's share.
Since copying pages of a book infringes only on that last item, six cents per page is extremely steep!
This is probably not something in 'mainstream' legal culture, but there is a legal theory that you can use the Uniform Commercial Code to your advantage. See http://www.worldnewsstand.net/freedom/ucc4.htm Basically, you sign a document (such as a check) with "Without Prejudice UCC 1-207" and you are able to protect yourself from 'hidden clauses' and 'hidden contracts'. I had a rubber stamp made for my checks, and this is how I sign them, it is recommended. I have never had to try this in court. It may not be of real legal value, but it was only a couple of dollars for the stamp and it may end up saving me a lot in the long run. Yes, I did read the part in the referenced article where in court you have to prove you know what that part of the UCC is about, and you can be sure I will have it all memorized if I ever have to go to court.
Shrink wrap licenses have been demonstrated as binding in US courts. The whole "it's not binding" argument is a slashdot myth.
See Hill v. Gateway 2000, United States Court of Appeals, 105 F.3d 1147 circa 1997 or so I believe.
The broad strokes? There are so many important terms to include with computer contracts that consumers need to realize they can't all be read over the phone or handheld as you read them. Anyone that has ever purchased a computer or installed software knows that there's going to be a whole bunch of screens coming up and those screens will ask you "Do you agree to Company X's condition?"
The Courts believe that given your virtually unlimited time to read before clicking on the box and proceeding, and given how you click the "I agree" button, you read the contract.
Now, using Klocek v. Gateway some areas believe that additional terms in some shrink wrap contracts weren't binding because the buyers didn't know about the added terms until too late, but that is easily remedied by saying something like "when you get the computer, you're going to have to follow the set-up instructions and click "I agree" before it finishes" or even better "you can go to our website to read the full terms of the agreement."
The courts do NOT agree with the concept that you can just turn around and say "oh, I didn't read that thus it doesn't apply."
Trust me, noone is asking for the government to come over and take our rights away or anything. But you illustrate exactly the kind of a attitude that I was talking about.
The element you seem to be missing in your all-or-nothing argument is: control. Noone proposes to give the government _unchecked_ power. In fact, it's not even as much giving it power, it's making it do its duty: to serve the citizens that elected it.
The jaded American idea seems to be that that any government power is some kind of a toggle with only two possible (final) states: (A) complete unchecked self-serving power, or (B) not having the government involved at all. And that any good citizen should fight to keep anything into category (B). But at any rate, that there are inherently no shades of grey between the two.
The European idea is that the government is there to _serve_ us. Yes, we know that politicians have no morals, are easily corrupted, etc, and generally that governments are very dangerous things. It just means we have to be more careful about it, not that we should avoid involving it altogether.
If you will, let's use the metaphor of a big and dangerous pitbull for the government. The difference is basically like this: the American notion seems to be that you have a big dangerous pitbull in your back yard, and it could get rabies any day now, and your duty is to fight it off and keep it away from you and your family. The European notion is that since it _is_ your dog and you're feeding it anyway, you might as well get some use out of it. Get it trained to do _your_ bidding instead of fighting it off. And better be a responsible owner and make sure it doesn't get rabies in the first place.
In a nutshell, that's what gets some of us, you know, _wondering_ about _some_ Americans. (I do realize that blanket generalizations tend to be false, so I'm not extrapolating over everyone.) That black-and-white view, completely missing any shades of grey in between. E.g., missing the intermediate shade of a government that is under enough control so it _can't_ just bend over to the highest corporate bidder.
The view that the any government is, unavoidably, destined to be corrupt and whore itself to whoever pays the biggest bribe, is in fact something I consider _dangerous_. It's the kind of thing that, in a perverse way, _legitimizes_ it when it goes and does just that. It just gets people to shrug and go "well, what did you expect?" instead of doing something to stop it. Seeing some of the overt cattering to corporate/cartel interests instead of the interests of their own voters that seems to be the norm in the US Congress... I just have to wonder, basically, how much of that overt corruption (not to mention perversion of what "democracy" was supposed to mean) is the result of the mindset that it's normal and inevitable for a government to do that.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
The contact details on the phone line (BT) that my ADSL connection (Demon Internet) was associated with changed. Demon noticed the change & cut off the service, despite previous assurances that this would work flawlessly. They apologised, and a few weeks later reconnected. Six months later, we try to shift the service to Bulldog, but are told that we have six months of a 12 month contract remaining. No, we tell them, the contract expired a while ago. No, they say, it started again when the reconnection occurred.
To cut a long story short: we told BT to force the connection of our line so that Bulldog could take it over. Demon will probably try to recover the remaining 6 months payment from us in a small claims court. Good luck to them, I say. They have no proof of a contract, and we have details of many weeks of service that wasn't supplied but we were still charged for.
Yeah, some of us have looked into gym memberships and the highest I've ever seen for a lockdown period is one year. Some in the area, and I'm in a mid-size area of NY, even offer pay-by-month-as-you-go (for slightly higher rates) or no contract so long as you use auto-debit. Many people CAN say they'd be at the same place 12 months from now as that is the standard length of most leases. If you don't want the discount that comes with long-term lock-ins, then go elsewhere but don't exagerate and say they lock you in for 3 years.
Cell phones do have high early termination fees, I'll give you that, but everyone knows about them ahead of time and should weigh that as a consideration when purchasing one. How hard is it to ask your friends, family and co-workers "are you happy with your phone? Where do you get good service? Have you travelled with it much?" to know which companies will suit your needs.
I have never heard of a credit card that doubles your interest rate with a surprise clause upon reaching half your maximum balance, and I've heard of a lot of credit cards. Clauses that I have heard of typically increase your rates (and yes, the increases are significant) if you DON'T PAY ON TIME. Making ends meet implies being able to pay these bills on time, and not using credit cards to survive. If you are not able to pay for what you buy, you are not making ends meet. And even then, many companies have a grace period so being a few days late won't even be a problem, and most will undo the rate increase if you talk to them and explain the circumstances (you were only late once, you've been a card-holder for 3 years) but if you have a history of late payments or are an ass on the phone (customers who are angry with creditors because the customer made a mistake are hilarious) will likely be told nope. They can, however, call back in a few months and ask for a lower interest rate, which most companies will do for good (ie, paying on time, customers.)
Car loans: More exageration. Most loans include grace periods allowing your payment to be received a few days later with no impact. My student loan grace period was 15 days for example. Our car loan grace period is 5. They are not able to nullify your payments and repossess your car with only one missed day. Even if under some freak happenstance they did this, the courts would not uphold this (assuming you take it to court and yes, you would if the bank was essentially stealing your car) and have not upheld this behavior in the past. Insert citation to that famous court case where the woman purchased a fridge, made payments for years, went 6 months delinquint and the court decided that worst case scenario, the credit holders would only be able to reposess the last thing she bought on the account because everything else should have been paid for.
Also, the cost of repossession is enormous. The banks will spend lots of money chasing you down by phone and trying to convince you to make the payment first because it is cheaper and more cost efficient for them to wait two weeks for a check than it is to repossess your car. Then they have to pay for a service to go and repossess your car and sometimes it's easy (you still live in the house you put on your application) and sometimes its hard (you work odd hours, you've moved) but regardless it costs money. They they can try to sell it for roughly what's left on the loan. In most cases, because of differences in the way loans are structured (you owe nothing at the end of 3 or 5 years) and the way cars depreciate (greatly depreciating to half it's original value in the first 12-24 months, but retaining some value even 5 , 10 or 20 years later) they may have to take a direct loss in auctioning your repossessed car, a loss they would not have taken if you continued making payments.
Your rake argument is also a bad one because simply put, few people (read: nobody) would buy a rake with an attached contract. A warranty would detail what the company must do to you and no company would be fool
They're a bullshit company with some of the most useless support I've ever had, they treat their employees like shit and really charge too much anyways. I hate Telus. I have a cell phone with Fido/Rogers and a cable modem with Shaw (which seems to always be faster than Telus' DSL anyways). If I ever have a problem I usually have a technician at my house within a week (sometimes by the end of the day) and haven't had a single problem that wasn't fixed within an hour of a technician being here.
Come on people, let capitalism work for you! VOTE WITH YOUR MONEY, IT'S THE ONLY LANGUAGE CORPORATIONS UNDERSTAND.
Karma: Non-Heinous
for going with telus... Should have gone with Shaw. As an ex-Telus employee who worked in the business repair department, I thought it odd when I was first hired that virtually no one on the floor had Telus DSL at home, even though as employees we were offered it at $16/month. Then I worked there, it explained everything. Telus is anything but a communications leader, they are totally a follower and customer service, despite the best effort of the call centre staff, isn't a company value. I'd sign up with Shaw. About your phone, it might be time to consider VOIP, however, if I remember my training correctly Telus cannot disconnect phone service to an account as long as the BASIC PHONE CHARGES have been paid. Even if you have a $2000 1-900 number balance, CRTC regulations prohibit it. They can kill your features, but they MUST provide basic land line service and all you are required to pay to maintain that service is the basic charge plus taxes. It's in the tariff information in the front of the phone book, if they want to get into it with you, tell them to look it up. BTW, Shaw hs Internet and Primus voip is still cheaper than any telus solution.
- The Google Toolbar has a spell checker button AND it works, consider that before hitting submit next time k?
This is a new version of an urban legend. You'd be better off with the concept of police entering chat rooms as children and agreeing to have sex with nasty older men, then arresting them (ie, the Dateline scenario)
Don't make up stories and pass them as fact. This scenario wouldn't hold up in court and yes, the porn operator WOULD have legal representation and oh, yeah, the police have better things to do than set up a firefox window with every porn site they can find and then setting a child in front of it to click download on each tab.
IN my various battles with Bell, Rodgers and videotron over the years, I have found that a call to the CRTC sometimes solves the problem. Mind you Internet is not under CRTC's purview, but Telephone service is. Telus I believe got whapped over thier services by the CRTC a while ago. Nothing to loose and its a local or an 800 number.
Please hire a lawyer if you genuinely need to know about this.
Just because telus's individual customer service member didn't have a photographic recall of every customer sign up and made a mistaken assumption (assuming at first they had signed up over the phone, then again that they had used the automated set up) doesn't mean they're wrong.
It's not like this guys parents pulled their computer out of the box, connected to an open wireless network and then a guy knocked on their door with a bill for 50 bucks, telling them that if they didn't pay they'd be subject to a $200 cancellation fee for getting out of the contract.
At some point somewhere along the line his parents must have said "we want this service. We agree to pay for it. Here's what we want."
I haven't tried to get that far in the Telus world (I don't want to look for a valid address or phone number for the ordering form, but they certainly don't seem to be hiding the fact that you're signing up for a contract. Look here http://www.telusmobility.com/on/promotions/index.s html and see how basically every activation special inlcudes the asterix saying it applies only for a contract of so long a duration.
Check http://www.mytelus.com/internet/highspeed/display. do where everything includes a link right below it including the terms and conditions (ie, "some conditions apply")
I wasn't able to get past the high speed sign up page without picking a length for my price "protection plan."
We're not talking about policemen pulling you over and handing you a bill for road services, or waking up in a hotel room next to a nice note saying "our cameras indicated you looked out the window. Viewing the beach is an added $10 fee." We're talking about someone agreeing to buy service, and then not liking the terms.
Whether or not the terms could have been more obvious I don't know seeing as how we don't know exactly what the plan was called that they signed up for, what the terms were at that time, etc.
BUT there are some parts where this story falls apart. First and most glaringly, almost any consumer would realize that an agreement for a discounted first year, with a higher rate following it means you're locked in for more than a year. He says his grandparents were members for "about a year" which, in the traditional construction means not a year (otherwise he would have said "over a year.")
No customer of even remote sophistication is going to believe that the company is going to offer a discounted rate for people who are members for 11 or fewer months, while sticking it to customers who stay for periods longer than a year.
They're going to have a hard time arguing (assuming the court is filled with smarter people than most of the slashdotters on this thread of course) that they believed they signed up for service that gives them a discount on regular service for leaving before one year is up, but charges them extra for the same service if they don't switch to another company before the end of the year.
As far as proving the agreement was entered into, there's tons of proof. There's the admission that they signed up for service, the fact that someone must have given Telus some money or banking information during the signup or when the first bill rolled around, the fact that someone must have given Telus the address to send the modem to. It's not like they just opened their door, saw a Telus modem sitting there and thought "hey, lets hook this up and see if this gives us internet" and even if they had, then you have the bigger problem of explaining why these people thought the company would give them a free modem if they had never asked for it.
Proof is on Telus's side. Proof says that GPs knew they were entering into an agreement, that they enjoyed the agreement for some time, that they had no problem with the agreement.
What is not proven is that the terms were in any
Ok, while I agree that the concept of entering contracts without a way to know is bad, unlike what the article said, the cancellation fee IS advertised under the "some conditions apply" links here http://www.mytelus.com/internet/highspeed/display. do and to make it easier for people those links go to http://www.mytelus.com/internet/highspeed/includes /popup_mice.vm?type=lite and it does say "Cancellation fee applies to early Rate Protection plan termination." rather clearly.
I agree with the point that being able to enter contracts without knowing is silly, however I wish TFA would get the facts straight when saying things like that the cancellation fee is not mentioned anywhere.
BUT there are some parts where this story falls apart. First and most glaringly, almost any consumer would realize that an agreement for a discounted first year, with a higher rate following it means you're locked in for more than a year. He says his grandparents were members for "about a year" which, in the traditional construction means not a year (otherwise he would have said "over a year.")
Actually, it's about 1 year 1 month or so now. The supposed contract period is three years
I haven't tried to get that far in the Telus world (I don't want to look for a valid address or phone number for the ordering form, but they certainly don't seem to be hiding the fact that you're signing up for a contract.
That's on a website, over a year later. There was nothing along those lines with the paper documentation at the time.
Proof is on Telus's side. Proof says that GPs knew they were entering into an agreement, that they enjoyed the agreement for some time, that they had no problem with the agreement.
Yes, there was an agreement for the service, which was paid for during the previous time it was rendered. There wasn't an agreement to enter into a contract, not was it mentioned up-front or in documentation at the time of sign-up.
Then we never entered into an agreement even though at some point we HAD to say GIVE US A MODEM SO WE CAN USE YOUR INTERNET FOR THIS PRICE FOR THIS LONG OR ELSE YOU WOULDN'T SEND US THE MODEM."
How strange. I guess I must have imagined that I had Telus service up to about two months ago, for less than three years, with a modem, which I didn't have a three-year contract for, which I cancelled without these type of issues. The issue at hand is not whether they signed up for service, but whether they agreed to be locked in for three years, which they didn't.
Now your arguement is probably going to be "Well, if there was a deal presented for the first year they must have been informed of a contract." Well, I just signed up for a different ISP. There is no contract with them either, and I got a free month + extra credits etc... it's called incentives to become a customer. Sadly, it seems that companies like Telus are now swapping incentives for a "loyalty" department which threatens fees for cancellation.
And if you think ISP's don't cross the lines of legality and morality... perhaps you should investigate some of the interesting goings on with AOL customers trying to unsubscribe, or the wiretaps at AT&T. Big companies will now happily cheat and lie if they think they can get away with it, so yes this is an increasingly disturbing trend.
Here's a question I'd like to see answered:
Given that the "right" way to handle any contract is to seek professional legal advice,
and given that consumers are now seeing as many as 30 or 40 EULA's annually, my question
is: how much would a diligent legal review of all purchases (per consumer) cost if
consumers were to enter into these "agreements" with diligent review by a legal professional.
I think the answer to that question would be so eggregious that it would reveal the EULA
system to be as silly as it seems.
Any experienced purchasers of legal services care to make an estimate for what a
diligent review of a single EULA would cost?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
The system is a lot less set in stone than it was 200 years ago. E.g., in Germany alone there have been pretty significant changes to stuff like healthcare or social protection in the last couple of years alone.
But, again, it boils down to safeguards and, in the end, democracy. If you have a government that would rather do things in its own "efficient" way that everyone else considers inadequate (e.g., outdated) or unfair, then you've just told me that democracy over there doesn't quite work as it should. Or at least that it's the same black-and-white view I was talking of: either a government doesn't have jurisdiction at all, or it _must_ inherently end up doing it badly and to everyone else's detriment.
In a democracy, i.e., "rule of the people", the people should have the means to get it their way, not the way some government bureaucrat finds "efficient." E.g., if enough people want the distributor to pay for the return shipping, they can eventually get it their way and get that made into a law. And if methods a, b and c no longer are adequate, in a multi-party proportional-representation system, there _will_ eventually be someone who uses it as political capital to get elected. It's not like there's a shortage of people who can smell political capital like sharks can smell blood, and in a proportional representation system the barriers are very low so they can go against established parties very easily with that capital.
See for example even such "crazy" ideas like the Pirate Party in Sweden. If they thought there's something wrong with copyright, they went and made a party. And in a proportional representation system, if enough people consider that to be their dominant issue, even such a minority party can and routinely does get some seats in the parliament to raise the issue.
But, anyway, that's in the end what democracy means. People can vote to for something inefficient, unfair, or even outright stupid. (E.g., while contrary to popular myth it wasn't a majority, some people did vote for Hitler. E.g., ancient Athens did vote democratically to declare war on Sparta... then discovered that Athens' power was naval and Sparta was landlocked on a mountain. Let's just say Athens never recovered from that mistake.) But that's what democracy means.
And I see no inherent problem with that. Between (A) the majority having the means to vote for something even unfair to the small businesses, and (B) the majority having to feed an army of lawyers to harrass those businesses over the same issues... I dunno, I find A both more democratic, and in the end more efficient. At least then it's just a handful of bureaucrats instead of an army of lawyers putting a drain on the economy.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
You're not supposed to (or allowed to!) copy the whole book. Buy the book! But half a chapter at 10 pages for $0.60 (plus maybe $0.40 for the copier machine?) is usually a good deal compared to the whole book.
It's a case of you conveniently ignoring the past. Your argument is that apparently in the past few months Telus randomly put up disclaimers, warnings and mentions of terms of service, just to trick your grandparents out of a few bucks. Most of what I see on the Telus screen is talk of 3 years. Maybe this is a recent change but far more likely is that they've had similar mentions, enough to put any reasonable consumer on notice, all along. You see, these companies are smart. They deal with people trying to get away without paying for their debts and other assorted scammers (no offense, and I'm not indicating that you are one of those two groups. I think your grandparents just didn't look at what they were signing up for) all the time, and that is why they protect themselves with disclaimers and warnings. They know that people like you are going to come back and say "oh, but I didn't sign that in blood so you have no proof it was me! I'm not paying!" all the time and so they put up click-contracts, and then people try to say "oh, but I didn't click it, the mouse clicked it!" and you proceed to swear off any responsibility for your actions.
YOU are operating on the assumption that a website from last year by a coast-to-coast company foolishly didn't include ANYTHING saying "additional terms apply," "click here to view restrictions," or even a link saying "Terms of Service" at any stage and that you have no proof they were this grossly incompetant to not include this most simple of legalese that gets included in almost anything any company puts out online, in print, on TV. Scroll down, even Slashdot has included some kicking terms of service saying they can do what they want, change what they want, etc.
In America, the concept is called guilty until proven innocent. In this case, they are innocent of subversively signing the elderly to sneak contracts with no mention that terms were subject to change or whatever language they put. It would be your responsibility to prove they have done something wrong, and your "proof" is that a year ago you say their website didn't have any of the asterixes and warnings and disclaimers that they have now and that any company would include in spades in anything they do because your grandparents obviously wouldn't click on anything then. Their proof will likely be a copy of the website clearly indicating the same warnings and asterixes they do now.
You say that now it's been 1 year and one month but we still don't know exactly when your grandparents tried to cancel and whether it was within that year or what. Regardless, they're going to say that you sir, and your family, must be idiots to not realize that an agreement for lower rates for one year, plus a higher rate afterwards would have some way of keeping you in for the higher price range. I'm not entirely interested in the suspiciously convenient facts you're going to give so please don't write back with "they tried to cancel one year and one day after their agreement," etc, etc.
And no, your causal evidence is not so strange. It's likely further proof that your grandparents did sign up for a contract because, had Telus actually been secretly inserting contracts into agreements without them they would have simply tried the same thing with you. Your new argument is going to be something ludicrous like they monitored your internet usage and knew you were a much smarter individual than your grandparents and thus, wouldn't bow to their incredible powers and that their secret contracts have only been inserted into people whose internet usage seems to focus on Yahoo's card games.
12 months for a lower rate, then ? months for a higher rate for the rest of your term IS an incentive because you see that even after the price is up to it's regular value it's what you'd pay for such service elsewhere. The cost of providing the savings of the first year are taken care of by the profit they make on the rest of the term. Giving you a cheaper 12 months without any contract to keep you locked in when the
With apologies, I wasn't totally clear on the options.
Under #3, do I get a reach-around? Cuz in that case, I'll stay signed up. Otherwise, righteous indignation!
My personal experience with Telus is excellent. When their loyalty group calls (about once a year) I clear some time to talk to them. Its the job of the person calling to find out if I am having any problems or if they can do anything to make the service better. Typically they find some new program or another that ends up saving me money. I run my consultancy from home and I make a living over thier pipes, both phone and internet, so they are my most important supplier.
:)
No I am not a shill for Telus, nor am I an employee,or own any shares etc, etc. I just think they are a good and fair company.
There is nothing wrong with a company saying if you sign up for a longer term we'll give you better pricing. I make similair offers to my clients. Heck if I know I can count on reoccuring income over some specific duration I'll cut them a discount. Seems like a fair offer for both parties.
I am sure that at some point it was mentioned that the discounted introductry price was contingent on a specific term. Maybe they didn't hear it, maybe they forgot, or maybe you skipped it by avoiding their install CD. I recently signed up for a new service at Telus and the rep was very clear that it involved a three year term. I was more then happy to accept it because I have always received excellent service from them and can't imagine switching during that time. The pacge they offered me was obvioulsy a defensive move against Skype. So thank you Skype for saving me $20/month even if I don't use you
Frankly I can't belive this post made it into the daily digest. "Person argues with phone company over bill." Now thats news!
btw: for those that suggested not paying, the poster did mention that Telus is also the phone company and will not separate the billing, so not paying means not having a phone either.
You said you would call Visa on your grandparents behalf. That should be your 1st call. Visa has an army of lawyers, the mechanisms in place and the experience in dealing with charges on a card in which the card holder didn't authorize the purchase, does not recognize the purchase or did not recieve the goods or services Visa, for them, is paying for. The sequence is the merchant accepts Visa, Visa pays the merchant(less 3% or 4%), Visa bills the cardholder for the full amount, the cardholder pays Visa. Visa takes their profit of 3% or 4% of the purchase price and that's it. Why should you pay a lawyer when Visa is already dealing with situations like this hundreds of times weekly if not daily? And dealing successfully with the merchants, getting a refund if it's an error on the merchant's part or on the part of the cardholder. Your grandparents are protected by Visa and the federal and state governments if their card is billed for a charge they did not authorize. Good luck.
I tried writing a letter to Apple when my son's 20GB iPod died. Every four months or so, it's hard drive would fail. They replaced it under warranty twice. Then when I continued to complain, an Apple employee actually said that maybe I shouldn't be an Apple customer. That's when I wrote a letter to the president of the iPod division as well as the CEO. I did get a surprisingly prompt reply, but in the end I was told to just go away. They replaced the iPod one more time, but fought tooth and nail all the way. Somehow it was all my fault. They had no intention of keeping me as an Apple customer.
Unfortunatly, like I said, it was my SON'S iPod. HE had no intention of giving it up. He's still an ITMS consumer with an iPod Shuffle now. Sigh. Can you say sheeple?
Enjoy,
Randy.
For an agreement to be made, and thus a contract to be entered into, the ISP must have made reasonable efforts to disclose the terms and conditions. If they did not give you a reasonable opportunity to become aware of the t's and c's, then those t's and c's dont apply unless it is commonly understood by the average person that they should apply. This would not apply to termination costs.
...kind of large value IT ones...).
You would need to review what was done to "sign up" very closely. For example if it was done on the internet, then you need to review the whole process and see if at some stage they make available to you the full contract. For example it may have been a URL labelled "Terms and Conditions" just above the "Submit" button. Most places would also make you tick a box saying you read and understood them.
If it was on the phone, then you need to see if they pointed you towards the terms and conditions prior to you agreeing.
I dont know about the US (eww...your lawers are out of control!) but over here in Australia, there is no way that an ISP could later add complexity to an agreement and claim all along that it was as both parties agreed. Generally if they wish to change a contract, you are then able to terminate the contract as you can not be forced to agree with a new contract. In that situation they could also choose to leave you on the old contract...but if not, you have perfect grounds to be let out of your contract without termination fees.
For those never-explained terms to apply to you, you must have had reasonable opportunity to be made aware of them, and to be in the position where you could knowingly agree to them.
In terms of WHEN a contract is formed, its typically when one party makes an offer - the MOMENT the other party accepts that offer, the contract is formed. This can be verbal. It could be fax, email, signature of a contract or whatever. In fact even if there is a written contract, it is very very likely that the contract will have already been formed well before signing by sloppy talking by the party accepting the offer. This is really common in business and not the sign of a good business person. Very. very dangerous,
Obviously written contracts are easier to prove one way or the other if there is a problem, but there are zillions of court cases that support verbal agreements.
The ISP can easily prove a contract exists - simply be proving you allowed installation of the service, used the service, and agreed to pay a fee. You then have an offer (isp service), consideration (payment of the monthly fee) and thats all thats needed for a contract to exist between the parties.
Whats contested here, as others have said, are the terms and conditions of the contract. Simply ask them to prove that you were made aware of any extra terms and conditions they are claiming apply, and if not, cancel payments at your bank and write a harsh letter which makes it clear you know how agreements are made, and that NEITHER party can just change things at will without further MUTUAL agreement to change the terms of the agreement.
Just my 2c. (I happen to negotiate and write contracts for a living
A good first step in a situation like this is to send a very formal letter the old-fashioned way -- on paper (so that it must be filed). This has worked for me on more than one occasion. I avoid using legal terms, since IANAL -- but using precise and formal language often has the same effect, and creates a paper trail that you can use in the case that you do decide to hire a lawyer later. Tips on writing a formal business letter and on how to write a letter of complaint are easy to find.
Banks and credit card companies make more money from delinquint account, routinely late payers and overdraft fees. NBT, one of the largest banks in the northeast here, makes over 30% of its total income from overdraft fees alone and most banks and credit card companies follow similar income structure. The remainder of thier income comes from a combination of interest on loans (or from credit card companies, interest on balances) and investments. A chunk of the fees companies pay for the privilege of accepting your debit card goes straight to the company whose logo is at the bottom (Visa or Mastercard) leaving almost nothing for your bank which is why many encourage using the card as a credit card (where they can make up to a dollar before V or M takes a cut) instead of a debit card (where they make less than a dime per transaction.) Your good banking makes them less than $20 a month. One person who gets one overdraft in the course of the month can earn them between 20 and 35 dollars.
It's as hard to prove "this guy didn't ship my stuff" as it is to say "I only used them once and they fell apart." Did you pay extra for delivery confirmation? For insurance? Oh, then you have no proof that I didn't send my stuff. Check with your neighbors, someone must have taken it. The guy's problem is that he was going through the wrong channel. The card isn't going to invest an hour in "investigating" whether or not the transaction happened, trying to negotiate with the company and all that crap, when the pants were probably in the $30 range. Furthermore, there's no doubt that the transaction was made, that he got what he bargained for. The fact that they weren't good quality is something he risked. Going back to the store, calling the store and asking for the manager, calling higher up the chain are all better methods for this sort of problem. It sounds like he went back there once with the pants in hand and the 17 year old kid on register didn't feel like dealing with him. Any reputable company will send the manager as the first wave of customer satisfaction and if it is a chain, writing to the next step up and saying the cashier/customer service kid wouldn't even let you talk to a manager, insisted they were out of the store and never returning, taht kind of stuff will likely get more of a response than just hanging your head low and admitting failure.
Most banks will jump through hoops for any customer, as will many credit card companies. And sometimes you'll get the bitch who wants to go on break, or the manager who's sick of you coming in every week with a new complaint always preceded by "Now, I don't like to complain but I am one of your best customers." Believe it or not they don't care much about your type of customer period. Your mortgage brings in a fair amount of interest no doubt but you're not very likely to refinance it at a higher interest rate two banks down the road if they don't smile at you. Your savings/checking account with a decent balance doesn't impress them either. Unless your balance is 500k or more or constitutes over half a percent of their total assets you're nothing. The reason they treat you well is because they're a good bank staffed by individuals who are doing their job.
They'd still really rather see the college kid with $3 in savings who is trying to get $120 in overdrafts overturned because he didn't realize his check didn't clear before he went on a shopping spree over the weekend. Even if they do overturn half of them, he leaves happy to have "won" and they still get more money they do off most loans. They have to work to make him happy because he could easily just pay off his negative balance and open another account at the disposachain bank down the road to cash checks at. And yeah, there's a chance you'll take your money elsewhere, but you're probably not going to so they don't care that much about you.
There are plenty of real businesses that don't accept visa or mastercard. Sam's Club (owned by Walmart) for instance does not. It's been a 50/50 crap shoot with most of the galleries I've visited. Many business supply stores don't (they bill you, you pay them.) Not even all fast food places accept it. Some places accept Visa and Mastercard but highly discourage it through cash purchase sales (effectively you pay more for credit card purchases, but obviously they can't say that's the reasoning) and right now I'm thinking of the Stewarts convenience store franchise here in the Northeast (320 stores is it? Yeah, about that.)
Now, yes, the closer a business is to the peasent class the more likely they are to accept Visa/MC to be considered a "real store" but not all of us have to charge a bite to eat at McDonalds. Some of us can afford cash. Or a real restaurant.