Slashdot Mirror
Germany's New Internet License Fee
PapayaSF writes "Beginning January 1st, Germany will require payment of a license fee of 5.52 euros a month on computers and mobile phones that can access TV and radio programs over the Internet. Like the current TV and radio license fees, the money will support national and local public TV and radio stations. German companies with many computers are predictably upset." I'm not sure if this is the same story we discussed in 2004. Did this original fee go through, and this is another fee on top of the original?
There are a few ways that a business computer could be made unable to receive TV or radio streams. Are these sufficient to avoid the tax? Enquiring minds want to know.
I wonder who is so stupid to pay for something they dont use? :)
sex is better than war!
Once they own you, they throw commercials at you. Don't ever pay for something when they show commercials.
Note: This is a flat fee. Every corporation has to pay it only once, regardless of the number of computers.
There's a similar update of the laws in Sweden. This may very well spread to a lot of countries.
Will the next big thing be an ISP which doesn't give access to the website's of the nations public TV and radio stations' websites?
Or will even The Pirate Bay and Google Video be recognized as sites where you can access TV and radio programs, thus making any such attempts from the ISPs worthless?
.. as in the story from 2004, they just reduced it a bit after a truckload of protests during the last 2 years.
Maybe a bit more background info from Germany here: this fee is used to support the state-owned radio and TV stations, the privately owned stations don't see a cent. This is supposedly to guarantee the higher-quality broadcasts from the state stations as opposed to the low-quality, market-driven programs from the private stations.. but as somebody who doesn't watch state TV as a principle, I won't pay this s**t.
Of the in Japan that nobody gives a flying fuck about. From this page: Q. Do I have to pay the NHK man? A. The NHK man is a representative of Japan's state-run television station who goes door to door trying to collect NHK fees, a bi-monthly tax of about 2000 yen that everyone who owns a colour television in Japan is required by law to pay. They are generally very aggressive and threatening, usually sticking their foot in the door so that you can't close it on them, and somehow giving you the impression that dire consequences will ensue if you do not pay promptly. The truth is that although there really is a law, a lot of people in Japan completely ignore it and you can too if you want to. Telling them that you do not watch Japanese TV is not an acceptable excuse, because the law says that everyone who owns a TV has to pay so the best way to get rid of them is to just refuse outright. They are not going to have you arrested and they cannot garnishee your wages so if you don't watch NHK, so you don't have to be intimidated by them. Nor do they have any right to enter your apartment, so if you tell them that you do not have a TV there is no way for them to charge you (be careful if you have a satellite dish though). I predict a similar fate for this one. These laws really are stupidly cussed laws, and everyone knows it. The only thing is that you can actually see if someone is using the internet really easily, unlike a simple TV picking up radio waves. By the way, if this whole NHK tax thing is a big rumour or it's long done with or something, please inform me :)
Like the current TV and radio license fees, the money will support national and local public TV and radio stations.
Shouldn't the money go to supporting internet related media, like podcasts? If I don't have a TV, why should I be forced to pay taxes that support it?
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
It is in fact the same story. In 2004 the introduction was first discussed, and now it's reality. It's a little more complicated than stated in the blurb though. If you are already paying the fee for a TV set, you have not to pay for the computer. But businesses normally don't operate a TV set, so they are now hit by the fee.
The fee is due not for watching TV, but for "having a TV set ready for reception of a TV signal". Because the public TV programming is available as an IP stream, every computer that could be hooked to the Internet is "being ready for reception". And don't try to argue that your computer is running Linux and thus not "ready". It is able to run an operating system that could display the TV stream, even though it is not running it right now.
In general you have to pay the fee only once, independent of the number of "TV ready" equipment you are using. Only if you have some private radio/TV sets and some in your business, the fee is due twice (a car radio in a car used for business for instance has to be paid for in addition to the one in your home).
Why doesn't Germany license the internet like Car Driving. ie To use the internet you have to pass a Test and the pay renewal fees every couple of years.
Positives from a government point of view:
1)Eliminate/reduce clueless users supporting spam/virus writers/bot-nets.
2)YAT Yet another tax for the government
In germany,
...
if you own a device that is capable of receiving public tv or radio than you must
pay a fee of 17.52 Euro/Month (for tv and radio) or 5.x for radio.
But you have to pay only for one device even if you own more.
This money is used to fund the state owned public tv and radio stations across the country
To my knowledge, we have the worlds most expensive public tv with a annual budget of
8.2 Billion Euro where 6.5 Billion Euro are coming from the fee (2004 data).
In 2004 the ingenious people of the public broadcasting sector realized that there are
now some people watching tv using their computer and thus are not required to pay.
They got politics to define computers, mobile phones etc. with internet connections as "novel tv devices"
with the intention of getting the people to pay that dumped their regular tvs for
computers.
For some reason this legislation was postponed until 2007 and is now coming into effect.
Particularly annoying is this new fee for companies. Especially small companies as you
have to pay for tv devices used by the company an extra time. This means that if you
work from home and have payed already for your private tv you will have to pay again for
your business computer with an internet connection.
This created some offroar now because since around 2005 a company is mandatorily
required to do the tax stuff via internet, and therefore by law must have a computer
with an internet connection.
The offroar was ongoing and recently the public broadcasting people have agreed to lower the
fee for internet computers from 17.52 (the tv and radio fee) to only 5.x which is the
fee if you have only one radio.
For me, running a small business from home, that means I will have to pay about 23 Euro
a month for public broadcasting
The fact that it's such a trivial sum of money means that people will just pay it to save hassle, even if they've never wathced TV or listened to radio streams over the internet.
And if you do decide to go through with the hassle of saying, "no i won't pay this, my computer can't stream tv/radio"... What will they do? Come 'round to your house and thoroughly inspect your windows installation?
Again... Lame.
sudo killall humans
While the GEZ is a pretty annoying idea particularly since it was set up to support public broadcasting (i.e. no commercials) and furthermore does not enjoy a free giving (tax exempted) citizenry like the US, this additional fee isn't as bad as it seems: /r.
Firstly it's only EUR 5 and change.
Secondly 98% of housholds are paying it already because of their EXISTING TVs or Radios/Car stereos etc.
This new fee is only an EXTENSION of the appliances INCLUDED in that law and IS NOT charged over and above the ALREADY PAID fees.
Sadly the GEZ has outlived it's usefulness, since virtually all subsidized public programming nowadays SHOWS commercials.
That is the true outrage
It is called "GEZ Gebühr" (fee for the GEZ, the Gebühreneinzugszentrale - Central for fee collecting, a divison of the public broadcast services ARD and ZDF), everyone in Germany has to pay the GEZ fee to receive radio broadcasts (reduced fee, about 5 Euro per month) or TV and radio broadcasts (full fee, about 15 Euro per month). It does not depend on the number of devices, you have to pay 15 Euro no matter if you own one TV set or 10.000. Some group of persons may apply for exemption.
The original idea of the "internet fee" was that you could receive internet streams from the websites of the public broadcast services with an internet capable device (not only PCs, but also UMTS mobile phones), so a PC would be equal to a TV set (yes, that's how german politicans think) and you have to pay the full GEZ fee. It simply does not matter if you actually do receive those streams, all that counts is that you are able to recevie them.
After lots of complaints from nearly every organisation, the "internet fee" was changed to the reduced radio fee. This does not affect common households, because they usually already pay for receiving radio and TV broadcasts, so the PC is "just another TV set". But each and every company that uses even only one PC now has to pay 5 Euro per month for the ability(!) to receive TV and radio broadcasts via internet. A related information: The german tax authorities force you to use an internet capable PC for your monthly tax declaration, so nearly every company now has to pay the GEZ fee.
Tux2000, nearly becoming mad during the attempt to translate this nonsense into english
Denken hilft.
Beginning January 1st, Germany will require payment of a license fee of 5.52 euros a month on computers and mobile phones that can access TV and radio programs over the Internet. They're working on something like that in America. Except instead of the fee going to the government, you pay it to Verizon corporation.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
Almost all households and a lot of businesses pay this fee already, nothing is going to change for them.
If you have a TV or a radio, you're already paying the fee. If you company owns cars with radios, they are paying it.
Its really not that big of a deal.
This hysteria is typical of slashdot and a load of rubbish; Here in Switzerland Computers with internet connections have paid the radio/tv tax for years now, and the sun still shines over the alps. The German law is exactly the same as the Swiss one and works like this:
Each household pays a monthly or quarterly bill to the state run TV and Radio stations. They pay the same amount no matter how many computers, TVs or radios they have. The bill is one single price per household.
Each company pays only one bill no matter how many computers or TVs they have. It is NOT based on the number of computers.
Slashdot and its sensationalist attempts to gather hits and therefore drive up ad revenue make their comments on any news event seem very hypocritical.
Since I live in Germany and I don't watch TV as a principle, I think this fee is imbecile and unjust. And unless the penalty for doing this is death or going to jail, I am just not going to comply. The GEZ bastards cannot enter your home without your permission, so just tell them to go fuck themselves.
If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
I won't pay. I stopped watching TV cause it's evil. The world would be a better place without TV and advertisements. I don't watch TV, I don't listen to radio. All the information I need is on the net. And now these....fuckers....would like to collect from me anyway because I own a computer. Fuck you. I won't pay.
So in NZ we had a fee for TV licensing but they scrapped it when the number of payers was so low and estimated cost of enforcement was impractically high. In the UK where I am now, they're still enforced with rapid enthusiasm -- their ads are scary (No TV license? Fine. £1000 with scary white bold letters on the Underground etc), guys drive around with vans detecting residual signals emanating from TVs on and receiving a signal. With the fee being so low, and given it's a fee retrospective to use (i.e. suddenly people have to pay for something they got free before), I'll be super impressed if the whole thing is practical. Also, if it's location-based, what do they do about mobile phones?
http://blog.julianonsoftware.com
I *heart* ponies. What did you think I was going say?
The German Government should be more flexible: anything that could in priciple line receive any RF broadcast (even FM/AM radios) should pay the toll!
My desk phone shows a strange interference case: I can head AM radios! Unluckily (for them) I'm not in Germany
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
At least as a private person. You just have to not register your PC. That's right just lie to them, they have no way to find out if you have a computer or not. I guess this works as long as you are not running a business, as it's very hard to believe that a business does not have a single PC :-).
Some explanation: I'm not agains laws in general. I try to be as lawful as possible. That's not easy in germany, as we have a law for everything. Especially this fee is extremely stupid, so I'll just ignore it. I do not watch TV or hear german radio on my PC. I also don't have a TV set, as there's nothing worth to watch on TV. I don't pay for nothing.
"Can somebody remind me, who was it said "Born free, taxed to death"
How many beans make five, anyhow ?
The German public broadcasting networks publish a growing number of programmes as podcasts. And the most known podcaster will start soon a radio show about podcasts and blogs. The show is called Trackback.
The fee is, in fact, not only the same as the one of 2004, it is also the same as the standard radio fee.
Which means that anyone who already owns a radio won't pay anything in addition.
The fee affects two groups of people:
a) Those who have neither radio nor television, but a PC or mobile.
b) companies, which usually fall into group a) if you want to be nitpicking.
Since I fall in group a) I will be engaging in civil disobedience next year. Many others will, too. It'll be interesting to see how that goes, because despite their advertisement, the GEZ (the company that collects the fees) does not, in fact, have any powers to actually do their job. They can send you nasty letters and that's about it. They can't enter your house if you don't let them in, for example. They can't return with police to force their way in, even if they claim they can.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I think they're currently charging the 17€ a TV costs for a computer (though that started only recently), now they're down to the radio fees.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
When you are paying the TV fee already, you don't have to pay an extra fee.
The fee is collected by the GEZ, which is famous to sneak into peoples privacy who do not pay the fees.
The public broadcasting network in Germany is very big: there are more than a dozen different regional and national TV stations, and about 50 radio programmes. The "state TV" is more critical to the administration than all of the private networks.
They make you pay it once FOR EVERY PLACE YOU HAVE A COMPUTER WITH INTERNET ACCESS IN. This means: you pay once for your home pc. then, another time for your office pc. UMTS-capable cellphone? that's the third time they let you pay. every other building of your corporation with internet access? you pa again and again and again.
originally, the fee was to cover about the same as a TV: about 17 euros. now, it's only about 5 euros, because the ministers of the state "listened"....RIGHT.
since about two years ago, EVERY company in germany is OBLIGATED to have a computer with internet access - to fill out the tax forms online. now, they are getting punished for it.
Oh, and of course the ONLY prereauisite for this license ist to have internet-access. no need for a big screen, no need for a soundcard or speakers, no need for a minimum speed, that's right. even your 9.600 baud modem gets taxed like the 16 MBit DSL line.
At least they are now thinking of replacing the appliance-based fee in favor of a household based one. still, for the about 2% of all germans that listen to radio/watch tv-streams of the public law stations, it's a harsh punishment, especially for all the small companies...
Needless to say, if the fee is supposed to be justified by the "programming being made available to everyone (with a license)", then it would really have to be
- available (under load - and that means during the evening news or blockbusters, and even at the end game's last minute of a soccer world cup)
- free of Digital Restrictions Management (if only to ensure anonymous access!) and not tied to any particular operating system, let alone a closed-source and expensive one
- at a fee that is substantially lower than for conventional over-the-air transmissions, as the receiver rather than the sender pays almost the entire distribution/infrastructure this way! (Everyone look at your ISP bills, in particular volume-based ones, or care to compute how many TV sets a day you could buy from the fees charged by German wireless operators for receiving IP streaming video, and Internet access in general, on your mobile phone...)
Three more things to consider:So the businesses' outrage at these surreal fees is quite justified.
The legislation dates back than, and was dated to be "in force" for 1.1.2007.
Despite MASSIVE public resistance (which was, of course, FUTILE), it will be enforced from january 2007, now.
Not that we did not tell the public back in 2004, but of course nobody listened - 2007 seemed "a long way" back than. Stupid people. Gnah.
The really annoying thing is, they started with 17 into the discussion, only reducing it to 5 when they noticed they won't get through with those 17 because that would have started public riots, I think. Now they just reduce the bill until nobody but only a few freelancers - who are hit most, because only those people using the PC for work have to pay *additionally* fees - will complain any more.
Of course, once the legislation is in force in the first place, they will quickly increase the fee. Damnit, and AGAIN NOBODY IS LISTENING.
Now, for me, there is only *one* real question remaining:
[ ] Canada
or
[ ] Japan?
Did you ever considered Germany a social living place, with fair regulations and freedom of speech and stuff? Really, they screw that up now. Fastly.
If you already own a registered radio or TV, you are not going to pay additional fees anyway. Only those who are not registered yet will be affected if they own an Internet capable computer. Firewalls, filtering ISPs etc. are very unlikely to help - the fee collecting agency GEZ has been (in)famous for interpreting such obstacles their way consistently in the past (1), and has been successfully suing unregistered TV watchers. This is all regulated by a public broadcasting law for which the Prime Ministers of the German states are responsible. Resistance is futile. :-(
In the old days when the public TV and radio stations offered more sophisticated broadcasts it was OK to pay these fees IMHO. But nowadays these public stations suffer from decreasing watcher and listener numbers, and try to resemble the private TV and radio stations more and more. There's less and less differentiators that warrant such fees - except maybe the news on ARD and ZDF and the folk music broadcasts if you like them. The radio stations play the same pop and chart crap as everybody else – so-called "Dudelfunk" (roughly translated "tootle radio"). In the Munich/Augsburg area, there is a single radio station that has all the good rock music – but outside of Augsburg you can receive them only via the Astra Satellite, i.e. not when travelling by car (no Sirius offering here, folks). I have stopped listening to the radio (except for the news at times) long ago. >8-(
(1) They aren't dumb. It's too easy to use a web proxy outside of the ISP's realm in order to bypass any firewall rules. Except if ISPs start filtering the actual content but this requires much CPU and is senseless once you start using SSL.
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
If this tarrif existed in the states it would literally cost me about $200 / month. Between game consoles, clusters of mac minis, laptops, rack-mount machines, media machines, cell phones and whatnot... Yea, I am a little gadget crazy, but perhaps I am just an early adopter...
We are asymptotely approaching a time when everything is connected to the Internet. If my toaster is connected to the Internet and has audio capabilites (and therefore theoretically capable of receiving and playing audio streams), would I have to pay the license? What about my fridge (many people already have Internet connected fridges with displays)? My washing machine? My iPod?
This legislation is astonishing. People will stop buying gadgets in Germany if every gadget has a state imposed monthly tarrif associated with it. It makes much more sense to simply impose a household tarrif (or even an individual yearly tax).
This smells like an underhanded way to get the masses to come out in favor of DRM in Germany to me. DRM presents a solution to the gadget tax!!! Hurray for DRM!!!
Politicians and Corporate interests are evil when combined.
It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving
Germans must love to pay taxes. They have the beloved Kirchensteuer, or "church tax," which amounts to 8 or 9 percent of taxable income for the 28 million German Catholics. Protestant, Orthodox and Jewish wage-earners also pay a church tax for their churches and synagogues. The German Catholic church was handed a cool $11 billion last year by the German Government and brought in another $5 billion on its own. That's an awful lot of money for an organization of just a few thousand priests - barely 150 new priests are joining the Catholic church annually in Germany these days - the average age is over 60! So what in hell are those old geezers doing with all that dough? And why do the Germans put up with such nonsense?
This tax is absolutely shocking.
So, you're sitting there, minding your own business, and the State comes along with what is an absolutely disgustingly expedient excuse of a reason - "your PC is capable of running Windows and is capable of receiving IP and so can be used to view public TV and radio, so you must support that public TV and radio" - and then takes your money.
It's a money-grab. It's simply a method to extract money.
It is utterly, utterly disrespectful to the people the State is supposed to represent; they're not being treated as people, but as wallets, to raid.
It's also absolutely insane from an economists point of view. Taxation inherently discourages growth. There are ways to tax which minimize discouragement. It is absolutely insane to tax in any other way. This tax is criminally stupid.
Finally, the simplest and most profound issue is that this event has *happened*, with all that it illustrates about the relationship between the German State and the people comprising that State.
Rousseau said "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains."
if 'can' thats a good way to kill the computer/cellphone/pda/etc market there. It also would hurt businesses with a lot of machines.
If its 'do', then its a good way to kill off the internet in that country. its pretty easy to hide behind a firewall so at least you dont get changed for every pc at home, but it will still be hard on large companies. yet another fee to pass down to its customers. great
People can only be taxed so much before they revolt. I wonder what the Germans limit is? ( hell, i wonder what our limit here in the US is now. That is part of why we were created, and now we just roll over for the next increase/addition of taxes.. grrr )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The reasoning is that without the ads, the fee would probably be €600/yr instead of €200/yr. If cable television in mainland Europe is anything like cable television in the United States, compare the price per channel of basic cable television to the price of the premium channels.
2. If you already pay for radio or TV, you don't pay for your computer
3. The fee is the same as for radio, it was reduced from the much higher one for TV because there were a lot of protests and because they finally had to admit that currently only radio can really be received via the internet
4. A company only pays for one computer (if they don't already pay for TV or radio) per site
5. If you already pay for TV or radio but you use your computer for business, you have to pay for it.
In particular point 5 is a big problem: Small shops and people running a business from home will have to pay an additional fee even though they usually don't use the computer for receiving radio or TV. This is particularly stupid because the state requires businesses to deliver their tax forms electronically, basically forcing them to have an internet connected computer for which they then collect a fee.
(OK, it's not the inland revenue who collects the fee but a separate entity called GEZ, but it's the government that passes these stupid laws.)
This is so sick ...
If my computer is *capable* of showing video I pay the tax even though I am only stream Creative Copyright controlled media?
What proportion of the "tax" (read: subsidy for big-media) will go to the CC videos and music?
Suppose I *choose* not to stream TV and video but have a computer which is enable to do so - should I be "taxed" on a service I never use?
This is like the "digital tax" in Spain which penalises me for using DVDs and CDs to back up my OWN data from my OWN computer which I own the copyright on.
So everytime I make a DVD of my own material - where's my share of the "digital tax" - or a refund.
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION
NO TAXATION ON GOODS NOT CONSUMED
The MPAA and RIAA are charging me money everytime I use a blank CD/DVD - and I am a recusant who refuses to "pirate" MSM on the grounds it is complete and utter SH*T
P155ED 0FF, offended, getting ready to seeth and whine ....
In Denmark too. From 2007, january, everybody with an internet connection above 256/* (IIRC) is supposed to pay 2 x $170 a year for "watching television".
Altough saying i can't efford that extra bill would be a lie, i'm a student, and don't really have much money.
I don't have a TV. While there actually IS some programs i would like to watch, i don't find it fair that i watch them without paying for it.
Now i'm being forced to pay for them, even though i don't view them?
TV streams, in sucky quality, hogging up my bandwidth, and not proberly supported (firefox? Linux? "Anything-not-MS"?), is what i'm being forced to pay for.
How about, if i produced a new album, copied it on 500000 CD's, threw em out on a square in the middle of Copenhagen, and charged everyone in Denmark with a CD player for one copy each? And if you don't use the product you've just bought, that's fine, we'll just save on the production then.
If everybody watched TV online, their servers would crash. Good thing people don't use it.
Oh, and btw, your ISP will report back to DR if you have a connection higher than 256/*.
And for TV its not 5 Euro, its more in the range of 20 Euro.
... it anoys me to much to get ripped off liek this.
There are attempts to stop that, but likely they fail. If that is not from the table I will leave this country
o I don't own a TV set
o with a computer you actually can't watch TV, as no single station is even broadcastin into the internet (except some news every 2 hours for 5 or 15 minutes)!!
o it would be totally simple to use an authentification schema so that only ppl who pay hte fee could recieve (download/stream) TV
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
A "license" gives you some (more or less useful) liberties for what you pay. In contrast, the German government forces this fee on everyone that merely owns a radio, TV or "internet-capable computer" (which includes things like cell phones!). It doesn't matter if you want to actually access the contents, the mere possibility of doing so is enough for them to ask the money.
:-(
For me, a modern solution would include some settop-box for everyone that wants to access their contents, and they get a card to access it if wanted.
Comparably, I could put up the software I'm writing on the internet, and ask money from everyone that _could in theory_ download it.
This whole thing is hillarious!
- Hubert
Does that mean now that I have paid the royalty fees I can now download music all to my heart's desire?
Dump the PC and get back your MainFrame terminal!
Almost all computers have embedded sound device capabilities, and most electronic devices access the internet (therefore access internet radio/tv).
Only thing that does not is the old mainframe terminals or custom built thin-clients.
I bet IBM is very happy with this... especially after selling off their PC division!
If there is any further derision of state-funded broadcasting on Slashdot, and talk of "not paying for stuff we don't use" then the British Broadcasting Corp. will send the bailffs over to confiscate the pink Monty Python foot "funny" icon (plus any reference to Spam not concerning canned meat), along with all sigs containing quotes from Hitchiker's Guide, Red Dwarf or The Office. Plus any stories linking to BBC news - but then, that's biassed state-run propaganda, whereas everybody knows that you can trust Fox.
Meanwhile, in the supermarket: "Yes, I know that my grocery bill is $100 but, by my calculation, $5 of that goes to fund commercial TV via advertising campaigns, and I only watch bittorrents of Doctor Who, so here's $95".
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
If the 'tax' is on computers that can download music/video media, could it be possible for a business/school/household to argue that only 1 computer is taxable if they are using a thin client system? Then they could have hundreds of users using it and only pay for the one server?
The term used for justification is Grundversorgung (basic supply with news) really pisses me of. The first thought is, why should I pay for something, regardless wether I'm using it or not. Exspecially cable-modem users will be ridiculed (who will open the phone-line for 1 Euro/hour to listen to internet-radio?).
Basic supply with news only is required because of possible catastrophic event. But this fee should be paid by every citizen equally, because the emergency plans include sending around police cars with megaphones. Why is there no GEZ-fee on using megaphones??? Ok, better don't remind them. Where I'm getting my day-to-day news from on the other hand, should be my decision.
An internet connection is not necessarily a channel for "Grundversorgung" (what about washing machines with internet connection?). You have to pay already only if it is possible for you to access these channels (which are not only news like tagesschau.de but also come with a lot of other crap no sane person would pay for and which is not accessibly by internet anyway). The GEZ is extending its mandate way beyond basic supply with news and expects to get paid for it by mandatory fees. No thanks!
Effectively, in Germany, there are a couple of country-wide TV channels and then a channel per state. Unlike the UK where the regional specific production, in most cases is limited to a news show or two sharing a slot in a common national channel, the German system has almost completely different programming, sharing only the national news. That costs. The thing is that on my cable, I get most regional TV (WDR,SW3, etc)as well as my own (HR3) so I do get more choice.
See my journal, I write things there
All you need to do is use a subcription service with log in to access content - that way those looking without paying license are doing something illegal.
p hp
It is time for the netizens to pull together and protest this.
Denmark is doing exactly the same and trying to push through this internet tax - netizens there are protesting via this site http://www.pc-licens-nej-tak.skrivunder.dk/index.
Hope the germans and everyone else will do something similar - And if you are from Denmark and reading this SAY NO TODAY!
Although I do not support that fee, this is not a big deal. Two reason: First: In germany, you pay a fee if you can receive some publicly funded tv or radio stations. If you pay that fee already, you do not have to pay the extra fee for the internet pc, because it is included. The money is then used to fund some tv and radio stations, which are usually of a really good quality and have little advertising before and none after 20h. The news show "tagesschau" for example is by far the most popular tv show in germany. The prices: If you have a radio (and/or an internet pc), you pay 5 euro something per month. if you have a tv, it's about 17 euro per month (radio/internet included). So: You only pay the new internet fee, if you do not have a radio and you do not have a tv. Second: If you don't want to pay, then simply say them you neither have a tv nor a radio/tv. They then come bugging you at the door, but they have no right to enter your house or apartment and even if they see a tv/radio/computer while you opened the door, it could be your neighbours machine. There is absolutely no legislation that is able to force you to pay.
If it is WindowsXP only, is a Win98 machine "capable"? I'd say no.
If it is WMA 10 only, is a Linux or Mac (or non-WMA10 client) capable? No.
If I'm not capable of seeing ALL the content (e.g. all must be available in a stream that I can connect to), then I will not pay a penny.
Don't know about Switzerland, but in Germany I am legally required to use a PC for submitting monthly tax reports (Umsatzsteuer/kind of Sales Tax and Lohnsteuer/Income Tax estimate) for my small company. Therefore I don't have a chance to run a company without a PC. With tv/radio it is different: I have the option of buying a radio/tv and deciding this way, if I want to pay this tax or not. With the PC there is no chance of avoiding the tax. This clearly fits the definition of abuse of power by the state.
In fact it is important to note that the license is covering Radio,TV,PC usage in a housenhold. If you are a pair living together but not married or registered as a pair, you will usually have to pay at least twice as two housenholds.
Then, the radios that are being taken to work should be licensed extra. Nowadays, when almost every modern mobile phone has an ability to receive TV programs, those should be licensed extra. Also the car radios would incur additional license fees this way or another.
Let's say you are a student and financially independent, but still live with your parents (and were using their TV or radios), you will then also have to pay for your Laptop.
A company has to pay for every location it has PC's installed. Say, you are a insurance broker, living with a partner but not married yet, having a separate office, and a car-radio. Your partner would be financially independent from you, but I calculate the costs for you two combined. You would also have a clerk, doing backoffice for you on your laptop on a separate location (e.g. at his home).
Here is a rough calculation of what you family have to pay every month
1. TV at home 17Eur
2. Radio in your partner's car 5EUR
3. Radio in your mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
4. Radio in your partner's mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
5. PC at work 5EUR (as it is registered on your company)
6. Your clerk's PC 5EUR
something like 40-60 EUR in month - 600EUR a year, and that from your after-tax income!
My comment to the new law itself is that they just have to secure the source of income for their public broadcasting production for the times when people will start to throw away broadcasting TV's. Just this year Deutsche Telekom is rolling out an ip-based Triple-Play network, making usual broadcasting televsion in Germany obsolete. Almost every house in Germay has a last mile connection from Deutsche Telekom.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
*Because* of my computer, I haven't watched TV in months or listened to the radio in years. Why the hell are they pulling the money from one source to fund another? Why not use that money to build faster and/or more universal internet access? This makes as much sense as having a cigarette tax fund Alcoholics Anonymous.
From 1st January 2007 every household in Denmark that has a PC and an Internet connection will have to pay a "media license" of DKK 2090 (EUR 280) annually, even if you don't use your Internet connection to watch TV streams from DR (the national Danish TV station).
The FAQ (in Danish) is here.
It sucks.
Unselfish actions pay back better
This is just another attempt at another income stream to keep the social policy in this country afloat. The taxation policies in Germany today are pushing the producers of the population to other EU and non-EU countries where the tax burden is more reasonable.. Crazy tax action in this country. A tax penalty around every corner.. this is the most signifigant factor in my decision to depart this beautiful country, tax insanity
Go home kiddies. It's much worse in other countries.
* Several times it has been written here that it is "only 5.53 Euros". It is still 66.36 Euros a year, which I think is quite a lot. But actually the amount is completely irrelevant regarding the issue.
* Several times it has been written that one don't have to pay the fee if you already pay for TV or radio. This is correct, but that's not the point. It doesn't matter whether it is already included in some other fees or not. The point is that reasoning why you have to pay the fee for an internet capable PC is absurd: Because you theoretically could receive the programs. Actually, you can't with the exception of some video clips. They are simply not providing the service. And 99.99999999999% of the Internet traffic is completely unrelated to TV and radio programs. The same way you could argue for a fee on the plain old telephone system (they could easily install a feed of their radio programs to a PBX so that you could listen to radio by calling a certain phone number) or for a fee if you consume any electricity in your household. It is simply ridiculous.
Since it became clear earlier this year that the fee is actually introduced, I deregistered at the GEZ.
The stations are voluntarely putting content on the net freely available - a net that they don't own but merely are hooked up to.
After they have done this they have the audacity to demand that everyone hooked up to the net they piggyback have to pay them a fee because they hooked up their content to the web - YES THIS IS A VERY BIG DEAL!!!
If they feel they need money to do this - then let the people who actually want to use "their service" pay - It is very easy to create a log on system. Should anyone then decide to gain access to the content illegally i.e. without logging in then that would constitute a punishable crime.
I don't want to use the television service on the web, and I sure as h... don't intend to pay this internet tax, which is the truth of the matter. This License is nothing else - Neither in Germany or Denmark. And how will they handle people having both mobiles PC's and other devices that can surf the web.
No these taxing schemes to bleed the webizens dry must be stopped dead in their tracks for the repricussions of the license will be that low income citizens will no be able to afford access to the web.
Another effect will be that free speech is squashed the web is the final place where anyone without a multi million budget behind him/her can be heard by a large audience and without risking being censored by the powers that be!
Are you willing to take that away from people... I'm not.
Let those that make content put it on the web if they wish - And let those who wish to access the content pay if they use it, provided the content isn't put up for free use. That way everyone can continue to use the web freely and those who want to make money from it can do the same. Without interfearing with the purpose of the web - Free decentralized communication.
From the GEZ website (www.gez.de):
GERMAN: Im nicht ausschließlich privaten Bereich sind für neuartige Rundfunkgeräte keine zusätzlichen Rundfunkgebühren zu leisten, wenn bereits herkömmliche Radios und Fernsehgeräte auf ein und demselben Grundstück oder auf zusammenhängenden Grundstücken bereitgehalten werden und angemeldet sind. Sind keine herkömmlichen Rundfunkgeräte vorhanden, aber neuartige Rundfunkgeräte, so ist - unabhängig von der Anzahl dieser Geräte - lediglich eine Rundfunkgebühr zu zahlen.
ENGLISH: In "not exclusivlely private areas" (e.g. corporations) for "innovative broadcast devices" (this includes internet PCs) NO ADDITIONAL PAYMENT applies, if there are already radios or TVs on the same area. If there are no radios or TVs, then, NO MATTER, HOW MANY innovative broadcast devices, you only have to pay ONCE. (That means: a call center with 200 PCs has only to pay for ONE PC).
The text then says, that if the PC has a TV card or radio card, then it is handled like a normal radio or TV (as it always has been).
Hope this brings a bit of clarity. It is really not a big thing, neither for private persons nor for corporations.
Anyone should be free to access the internet without having to pay fees to the state for that, your ISP already charges you for access and on those access fees there is a tax called MOMS in denmark VAT in Britain etc.
The fact that state owned propaganda stations make their content publicly available should not mean all people have to pay an extra tax when those same stations easily could create a log in system and stream only to those registred as viewers/content users. Everyone else should be free to not access their media. After all those state stations do not own the internet thus they should not be allowed to tax it. The same goes for radio and tv transmissions - Satelite broadcasters have been using set top boxes for years and are making fortunes from their consumers. Let anyone who wants to watch register to do so and leave the rest of us alone.
US/Canadian TV sucks pretty bad.
German TV is much worse.
We had a big Supreme Court case in this country back in 1819, relating to taxes and who could levy them - a little conflict between the Maryland government and the federal government.
So. The power to tax is the power to destroy. And Germany (and Britain and other places) are taxing TV, radio, the Internet. I've seen enough WWII films (and read books, fiction and otherwise) about World War II and people with radios trying to hide them away or tune them to illegal channels (BBC) and such that this notion worries me.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
What happens when TV and radio are able to be streamed down to the public.. and every man and his dog decide to download TV / Radio? BitTorrent only works due to many people uploading.. in the case of streaming it would be one way all of the time: Wouldn't the TV stations collapse? Unless better streaming technology is put in place to allow 100% utilisation of bandwidth (BT-Strsam anyone?) then they could be digging a rather large hole for themselves? Could they?
In other news, when will TV be available 'online' in Germany?
You can put this into effect now if you wanted to. Just spread the word (email) of the online radio stations you have paid for and watch them be slashdotted to death to the point where they admit that they can't handle the whole nation streaming from them. Nip it in the bud before they start collecting a tax for TV transmissions that they can't service.
You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
taxpayers.
seriously, that's why taxes are theft.
1. What if you build your own computer? How do they know? 2. What if you take a trip to another country, buy a laptop, and bring it in on your backpack? 3. What if you junk an old computer? How do you stop paying the fee? And to follow, what if you junk and old computer and your neighbor decides he/she wants it a few days later and pulls it out of your trash? What if you pull it out of your trash - how would they know? What if you're like me and run around your university collecting old junked computers and put them to use online? 4. If they are going to charge everyone that has internet access because it is capable of receiving channels, and they are going to publish the internet channels just because they want to charge people, doesn't that mean everyone else outside of Germany will get them for free too?
The situation in Switzerland is somewhat likely. There's a tax for Radio reception, and one for TV reception. (But for now, a computer counts only as a radio receptor, not as a TV receptor as in Germany).
Here, if you can prove that indeed you don't whatch TV (deactivated and locked cable connector) you don't have to pay the TV tax. (I've actually done that : in my ex-GirlFriend's appatrement, the TV was only connected to computer's TV-out so mostly watched DVDs).
Maybe, in Germany, not having installed the proprietary software needed to watch TV (here in Switzerland that's Realplayer) will not count the computer as a TV receiver. I haven't tried that yet in Switzerland : here computers only count as radio receptors and I happen to have actual radio receptors, so I have to pay the radio tax anyway, even if I didn't install neither RealAudio nor QuickTime Audio on my linux box.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Came to the US in 2004. She says that she told the authorities she was ejecting.
They replied that, while changing continents was all very interesting, it didn't disprove her ownership of a TV or radio in Germany. (When she was a student in Ulm, she reports that they came by almost monthly, demanding entrance to inspect for gadgets).
She eventually had to cancel the bank account the authorities were tapping to stop the pain, after she had left the country.
My sister-in-law, still in Old Europe, is currently forced to prove that she doesn't own any of these gadgets.
Probably a libertarian argument in here somewhere...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Pay attention, this is socialism in action. Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, and the rest of the socialist democrats want to take your money to spend on their pet projects. Be prepared for these taxes in the US. They're coming soon.
Hillary will want to talk about the kids. The children need protection. Or the abused women, or poor people who need access to the internet. It will be labeled as "valuable legislation". No doubt we'll need a new division of the government, and we'll need to hire 250,000 bureaucrats to staff the offices, join the unions, pay union dues, and then complain about their standard of living when they only make $62,000 per year plus benefits.
Then, when the telecomm and internet companies start laying off employees becuase peopel are dropping their internet connectivity due to the higher costs, we'll need to raise taxes to pay for the unemployment, re-education classes, and then provide much needed psychological support from other government employees... like FEMA! There's nothing more valuable than having FEMA employees driving around Florida, searching for Hurricane victims but not knowing who needs attention because the Hurricane victims' request for aid are considered private records... so we have FEMA employees driving around looking for blue tarps on rooftops and asking people if they need support, and then THEY need counseling because they feel they aren't doing an adequate job.
Personally, I think we should leave the internet free. Take Hillary Clinton's "tax the $hit out of everything because that's what Canada, France, and Sweden have done and it's so successful" and tell her to shove it up her a$$.
And tell Helmut or whoever is in charge over in Germany to shove this new tax up their a$$. What's the unemployment rate in Germany? 25%? Like they need more taxes. If they'd learn to drop taxes, it would promote investment. Costs would go down, investment would go up, outsourcing would disappear, employment would go up. Reagan proved it. Bush proved it. Clinton rode the hog until it bucked, and then got out... thankfully he didn't f_ck it up before he got out... he let the dotcom stock boom do that for us.
Gotta love socialism.
... is the ad-free children's channel that is financed by the TV fees here in Germany. I'll grant you that not everyone will benefit from this, but it is a definite plus to be able to let my daughter (she's 5) watch some cartoons or stuff once in a while without her being brainwashed to be a good consumer right away. Although I'm sure that will come later anyhow.
There are certainly drawbacks to the public funding of radio and TV programs, but the ad-supported commercial one are free only if you don't count the higher prices that you have to pay when you buy advertised products. There's no such thing as a free lunch. And the commercial stations are talking about encrypting their signal at least for the sattelite users. Once that's done, you have to pay through the nose. A new receiver for each TV set, a new decryption card for each receiver (for a low monthly fee of only 3,50 IIRC).
So the German authorities have lists of citizens classified by religion, including Jews.
Do they process them with Dehomag machines?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
What about Islam?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Not sure about this but its pritty good.
n the UK the isp's have quotas on adsl accounts mostly around 30gb/month
Does germany have the same ? If it does then you can argue that you cannot recive
tv because you dont have the bandwidth todo so. aka cant watch it when you want for as much as you want.
And don't try to argue that your computer is running Linux and thus not "ready". It is able to run an operating system that could display the TV stream, even though it is not running it right now.
...
Why not? Assuming you were GEZ's lawyer in court how would you defend against such an argument? Installing an operating system in order to watch a broadcast and then reinstalling the previous operating system and restoring data and software that is required for the computer to serve its primary purpose can not be enough to consider a given computer "ready for reception".
And that especially in the face of the already established precedent that television and radio sets rendered unable to receive broadcasts by a recognized technician through means not trivially circumvented can be operated without a fee
Let's hear it!
The system depends largely on the German tendency to follow rules... basically, you can deny to the GEZ that you have a computer or TV, and there isn't that much they can or will do, they can't search your house. So they basically get people to comply by big ad campaigns and trying to make people feel guilty. I love the irony that some of the money collected by the GEZ supposedly to support public broadcasting gets spent on annoying tv and radio advertising, instead of real public channels and programs.
This GEZ situation really makes my blood boil.
1. Why do we have to pay for owning a radio-tv waves receiver? Makes me remember nazi times when the Jews were not allowed to have a radio. Now these neo-nazis say: You can have it, but you have to pay us otherwise we will hunt you down! We will show up at your doors step, ring and force you to sign up in front of your atonished wife and children," GEZ terrorists that`s it.
2. This absurd situation doen`t even happen in what we call "underdeveloped countries" It makes Germany and the rest of Europe, in the eyes of foreigners, look like uncivilized countries ripping the money away from their citizens by any possible means. Isn`t MwSt (sales tax) high enough already?
3. The GEZ argues that it gives "a selected programming" but that is a biased opinion. To force people to pay for something they do not consume is inmoral. Suddenly having a TV or radio makes me feel like a criminal. If they think their content is so hot, why they just don`t put it on cable and sell it as any other honest cable company do? And now... the Internet too? the billions we give them cause us more sorrows that benefits. Where are they going to stop? Telephones too? ridiculous. By the way, once the son who is living with his parents starts to make money, he has to pay too!
4. Is it honest to force people to buy something? Isn't it that when you put your content on the "air" it becomes for public comsumption? That is the aim of radiowaves isn`t it?
5. I do not know of _ANY_ German who is happy to pay for this. Our politicians protested it, but they (GEZ) still got away with it.
6. I am doing what I can to stop them, let us join our wishes to remove all these offices that cause nothing but intense annoyance in our people. Our right to wish for something is not taxable, and can work wonders.
7. What else can we legally do?
a future way, or a step twards the government(s) saying, you own a pc, the average bandwidth use world wide is 1.5Gig per month, you us $0.01 per meg. Give us the $15.00 or we will revoke your license to think.
--
Big brother is a lie, he lies to you and smiles while doing it
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
which is public tv and radio stations. One wonders if those stations were not supported by compulsory payments, would they continue to be able to operate? How about providing content that a free market can or cannot support and let that take care of it? Why force people to pay for something they don't actually use?
The internet doesnt connect them to TV broadcasting channels. So why should german people pay those channels, when they use the internet to msn or mail? Luckly i'm not german, but i would raise voice then there. Next thing is a tax on internet, just because it can doesn't mean it's right. The internet is free for users, people can do whatever they do MSN or Email or visit slashdot. Why then pay people who they dont deal with, or dont get something back from in return. People might think a tax is good for everything but i think it's wrong let people decide themselves what they like to pay. Those TV broadcasting channels should turn themself in paid sites, for the price namedin this article. Then it only deals the people who look at them. But since people seam to be mostly at myspace or yourtube i bett they wouldnt have many members.
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
I once had my hands on a VCR of an elementary school - it had no tuner for just that reason. They only use their equipment to show videos I'm too lazy to look up the original wording but it goes something like "you don't have to pay if it is too big of a hassle to make $gizmo work as a receiver". => Pulling out the cable or "I don't own an antenna" isn't enough to avoid the fee, but ripping out the tuner is.
Poor Germany.
Screwed by their Government. Who would have thought?...
BTW did you want Freedom Fries with that?
Reduce, reuse, cycle
One wonders if those stations were not supported by compulsory payments, would they continue to be able to operate?
We need free and public broadcasting and information channels. Any form of either regulation (tax through the government) or free market forces will lead to control over programming content. If we want to keep a fair and -- more or less -- unbiased media the only way to finance that is through a system which is beyond government control (which the German GEZ is) and which is not dependent upon pandering to the public opinion in order to retain viewing and subscription figures.
Also -- news and media also need to be accessible by the not-so-well-off people for whom the cost of a subscription-based model (rather than a flat prce payed by everyone) would be prohibitive.
D.
Should I be required to fund content that I staunchly disagree with?
For example, should I be forced to pay these fees or else go to jail so that the money I had originally earned and has been confiscated from me is invested in content whose goal is to convince people to create more programs to confiscate the wealth I earned from me because I am the wrongdoer for earning that wealth in the first place?
Yes! That's what democracy and the principle of solidarity is all about. Why should you only be required to pay for information and opinions you agree with?
For example, should I be forced to pay these fees or else go to jail so that the money I had originally earned and has been confiscated from me is invested in content whose goal is to convince people to create more programs to confiscate the wealth I earned from me because I am the wrongdoer for earning that wealth in the first place?
Huh? What? Parsing error. Sentence does not compute. Who is forcing whom to confiscate your wealth? Through which programs? What????
Having lived in Denmark from 1980 - 1984, a TV/Radio license or tax on the heavens carrying the signals to your home/auto/computer is not a new concept. The enforcement was strict and RF signal vehicles would drive through the cities checking signals and tax data from each home and building. Go figure.
One can't but help wonder if it would be possible to get these State Monopolies to rethink their money grab if citizens across the globe began streaming from stations not in their native countries.
How would these Dinosaurs who only exist due to the extorsion fees that have been imposed on the citizens react.
Would they cry wolf and say this was DOS'ing or would it be legal for citizens to do this service to one and another, and thus force the Dinosaurs to reconsider their strategies of making their content freely available?
I think it would be very interesting to explore these kind of tactics - especially how you legally could apply the maximum pressure to these leeches, who blieve they should be allowed to monetize the web just because they got the power.
But as the sog goes "just because you got the power, doesn't mean you got the right" Right?
I hope that someone will start investigating this idea and that people everywhere will campaign actively agains any form of taxing internet access!!!