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Do You Own Your Native Language?
l2718 writes "In a new take on the reach of 'Intellectual Property,' the Mapuche Indians of Chile are accusing Microsoft of linguistic piracy. Their lawsuit alleges that Microsoft needed permission from the tribal elders before translating its software into Mapuzugun, a project which was co-ordinated with the Chilean Ministry of Education." From the CNN Money article: "The Mapuche took their case to a court in the southern city of Temuco earlier this month but a judge ruled it should be considered in Santiago. A judge in the capital is due to decide in the next two weeks whether Microsoft has a case to answer. 'If they rule against us we will go to the Supreme Court and if they rule against us there we will take our case to a court of human rights,' said Lautaro Loncon, a Mapuche activist and coordinator of the Indigenous Network, an umbrella group for several ethnic groups in Chile."
Be right back, about to file a language patent for "English"
I'm not sure what to think of this. On one hand, any large, common language can reasonably expect to be used by any corporation or person world wide.
On the other hand, though, if this is a small tribe and they only teach the language to other tribe members, and Microsoft intends to make a profit off using this language, then maybe it is some sort of "human rights" issue.
Kllskjlf KJkJLFKJG L S jksldjl!! ; lkj flkjLk!: JF; kj
The actual name of the language is Mapudungun.
This seems to be the order of the day. No matter how weird a case you have, if it gets turned down in the supreme court, take it to a human rights court instead.
Can Jim Henson sue Google over their option to translate to Swedish Chef?
Bork bork bork!
Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
I am the one who owns the English language. I get the final word on how it is used. Why do you ask?
... and then they built the supercollider.
the absurdity of the contemporary take on IP, and perhaps the idea behind is to demonstrate this.
To me, a language clearly is in the public domain.
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
The actual name of the language is Mapudungun.
Clearly they got it wrong to avoid being dragged into court. You, on the other hand, have opened yourself to a lawsuit!
Someone should sue them for using English. What the hell is their problem ?
My initial reflex would be to say that you cannot own a language. Then again, however, what if you invented a language? What if I wrote a book claiming that I invented Elvish? Could whoever holds the copyright for Tolkien's work sue me?
And what about accents? If I start using an accent on a show, and it begins to be associated with me. Then, someone else uses it. Can I sue them?
I am not sure, but I think that the answer is this:
A language is a way for people to communicate. That is, it is a system known to both of them, using which they can send each other messages. One can patent such a system to prevent others from using it. I am not sure, but I do not think that the tribe patented their language. Therefore, I doubt that they have any grounds on which to sue.
The iffy area, of course, is when does one have to pay royalties? If I create a language, patent it and teach it to you, and then, you teach it to your friend, do you or he have to pay me royalties? Here, I am not sure.
I, for one, WELCOME our new NgeMimbwa Overlords.
In Soviet Russia, the Language Manag'hwhabwa's YOU!
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
called "human female", please, please, PLEASE release it into the public domain so the rest of us can maybe hope to understand it!
Monstar L
At least this puts the arguments over "freedom of speech" into perspective.
If a company were to break a law simply by using a (albeit rare) language in their product than we know that something just isn't right with how patents, intellectual property and free speech are handled.
Not that we'd need this trial to confirm this hunch.
To me, language is just as intangable as thoughts, ideas, and concepts.
Perhaps it would fall under the guise of 'Trade Secret' rather than be copyrighted...
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
This could be a real blow to the pig latin version.
Well... why not just include language support but not sell a translation... But why not just tell your tribe not to use windows with that native language pack, though admitidly bizzare they always have the right not to buy the copy and they are the only market for it.
Let's think for a moment. What if I sit down to write a utterly new language, and create dictionaries, an alphabet, a syntax and everything, and publishes it... I've been doing a creative task, which I should be able to claim copyright for. Can I then stop others from using that language without paying me royalties? I guess so, since I've used my creativity, which is essential to be able to claim copyright in the us... In europe, the mere 'sweat of the brow' is enough...
Assembling etherkillers for fun an profit
Look, I don't like Microsoft, but these people are fucking morons. Linguistic piracy? Are you shitting me?!!? This tribe sounds like the RIAA. What a bunch of chumps
1f 1t 1$ p0$$1b£3 t0 0wn 4 £4ng4g3, th3n g4m3r$ pwn £33t. If it is possible to own a language, then gamers own leet.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Sorry, but that's the first thing that sprung to mind. If I were running MS and some "tribal elders" pitched a fit about us supporting their language, I'd say "Ok, have it your way. We'll see if your language stlll exists in another fifty years."
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If the Mapuche "win", Microsoft will promptly remove their language from Office, and it will be the end of that. Arguably the value of a language is largely proportional to how widely it is used. By having it removed from the software, the Mapuche are hurting only themselves, limiting their language's potential user base.
What is the very essence of human civilization? What is our culture? I would say that the spoken and written language is at the very heart of things, if not the most important aspect. As such it should be free for anyone to use for any purpose.
Sure, small tribe stand up against the shade business practitioners that is Microsoft. You really *want* to be on the side of the tribe, but this time I think they are wrong. Besides, I don't think they would really care if someone else used their language, someone who doesn't have a boatload of money that is.
Indeed. It seems pretty rude to decide such things in government and corporate offices in Santiago and the US, without asking the opinion of the authoritative people in that community. I wish they can extort a lot of money from Microsoft to settle the matter.
I would also quite enjoy seeing the debates in the courts between some folkloric Mapuches and MS executives and their lawyers. If the Mapuches do indeed have the pride this story suggest, the ones who will look silly in this absurd confrontation will be the MS executives. And maybe they will even be scared? "The Mapuche are renowned for their ferocity", after all...
They may not "own" their language, but I wish them well anyway...
So let me see if I get this straight -- the Mapuche tribal leaders are making the claim that Microsoft needs their permission to use a language because, well, they say they own this language? OK... later on in the article, a Mapuche leader makes the claim that he's afraid that their language might become like Latin, i.e. spoken and read only in universities, but that the solution to the problem is to make Mapuche an official state-sponsored language, alongside Spanish. Pardon me, but that objective seems diametrically opposed with the current legal action against Microsoft. Preventing Microsoft from incorporating Mapuche into Windows does nothing but retard the usefulness of the language, or am I missing something? It certainly opens up a whole can of questions about a state's sponsoring a language, but only to a select group of people, with control held by a tiny group of non-state leaders. Where's the sense in that idea? Where's the logic? Are these guys simply smoking some kind of native herb that I've never heard of, because that's the only 'logic' I can see in this whole silly situation
I suspect that the tribal leaders have another agenda here, namely fleecing Microsoft out of a few bucks for the right to incorporate the Mapuche language into Windows. That idea I can understand, even if I don't support it. It will be interesting to see what the Chilean courts decide. On one hand, there's a cash-cow opportunity for them to make a ruling that will benefit a group of Chileans by thumbing their noses at one of the richest companies in the world. On the other hand, it sets a bad precedent for businesses, and I wouldn't even want to think about the lost economic opportunities a ruling for the Mapuche might have.
One thing's for sure -- remind me not to go to Chile with my camera. God forbid I should snap a photo and deprive these people of their right to control their cultural heritage or something. Hell; they they sound like the kind of people who might believe that I'm stealing their souls when I take a picture. I guess those beautiful llama photos will just have to wait till next year.
I, for one, welcome our new PERL overlords.
Obviously, this can only help these people integrate with the modern world. Maybe that is real the problem? They don't want their people being able to use computers and access the Internet in their own language. If they could, who knows what influences they could be exposed to thus hastening the destruction of their culture.
This has Mel Gibson written all over it.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
This is embarrassing. Chile, my home for something like 17 years now, mentioned on Slashdot, and its for this.
Tut tut. I'm all for native peoples getting their act together, but this isn't how you go about it
d.
My motorbike travels in Chile.
Do we side with the Mapuche because they are against microsoft, or against the Mapuche because they are attempting to protect their intellectual property?
Seriously though, while it seems absurd that a people claim to "own" their language, many non-western cultures have a much stronger sense of intellectual property. Many cultures recognize dances, songs, stories and even names as property, to extend this to their language is not much of a stretch. That said, it doesn't cost Microsoft anything to pull support for their language, while it would put native speakers of the Mapuche language at a significant disadvantage.
At some point I just have a gut reaction to say "You're a moron. Piss off!"
I think this is one of those times... yep...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
How much of a market can there be for M$ products in a culture where tribal elders are still dolling out permission to use the language? Did this come before or after the Klingon version?
You need more psychedelic art in your life. rhesusmonkey.deviantart.com
"I am the one who owns the English language. I get the final word on how it is used. Why do you ask?"
If ur the guy, u suk. LOL ROFL
say it ain't so !
tagged with obvious and doh
Oh fuck, they patented cuss-words too. Oops!
Table-ized A.I.
> On the other hand, though, if this is a small tribe and they only teach the language to other tribe members, and Microsoft intends to make a profit off using this language, then maybe it is some sort of "human rights" issue.
I don't care. It's stupid, even if it's Microsoft they're suing. Think about it: who the HELL is going to buy software in that language other than them? Huh? The Maori tried this a while back calling it "cultural property" and getting all in a fuss over those Lego Bionicle things. I'm sorry, but no, you can't "own" a culture (or at least, you shouldn't be able to). It's stupid, it's wrong, it reeks of extortion, and as much as I'd like Microsoft to die out for unrelated reasons it's still wrong of them to try to claim ownership of any language.
Now, if it were something different and Microsoft didn't pay the translators like they'd agreed to (or whatever), that'd be different, but I don't care how you slice it, you DO NOT OWN such things and I don't want them giving our government any more stupid ideas. We have more than enough of those already!
Yes. This is only about money. No matter how much they protest.
On the surface, it may seem quite absurd. However in TFA, I couldn't find any specific mention of the motives behind the Mapuche council's objection. Note that Mapuche leaders do not necessarily represent the will of every member of the tribe. However if we assume that there is support from the general populace, my guess would be that:
1. The Mapuche and Andean people have a history of being lied to and manipulated by the Chilean government, usually in the interest of integrating them more within the European society and economy, often resulting in people being forcibly removed from their ancestral home territory so the land can be exploited for corporate gain. As a result there could be a general distrust for any type of corporation, especially those from the US. Mining and logging companies, for example, have been a major cause of displacement and environmental destruction, which has deeply affected the sentiments of native peoples toward capitalistic enterprise.
2. There is a fear of the bastardization of their language by Microsoft incorporating and "standardizing" it. It could be that many are satisfied using Spanish language software from Microsoft.
3. Remember that traditionally the native people of South America have a completely different world view from those of European descent. Society, religion, economy, technology are all perceived differently. It may be that the people actually don't want the opportunity of being exposed to this software in their native language. We may think it's "what's best for them," but really how can you or I decide that? The history of doing what we think is best for an indigenous culture of the Americas has been that of moving them into our world without really understanding that they may really want to keep their way of life, and "progress" as we often define it (e.g. technology) is really not beneficial from their perspective.
To many, this may seem arrogant, or a grab for money. Without hearing a proper explanation of the motives behind this resistance, I feel nothing can be concluded. I think it's important to realize that other cultures view the predominant society from a different perspective and may see further integration as a threat to their way of living.
What if Micky$oft hadn't included Mapudungun as a language option?
What repercussions of anti-Mapudungun fudd would we be seeing? Would the story read, "Microsoft sued for racial profiling against the Mapuche?" Would we also see quotes from the Mapuche tribe saying, "Microsoft is nothing more than language bigots for not recognizing our people, and their language as part of the human race?"
Either way, I'm not surprised this story came about, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in the future. One way or another, I can't help but think this all boils down to...money.
Shane
I'm sure the first question on everyone's mind is: how will this affect the rollout of the Mapuche language version of Wikipedia?
The root cause of all of this is that the indigenous people of North and South America were so thoroughly conquered by Western societies that they now desperately try to take control over whatever they can. Trying to make their language a state language and trying to stop Microsoft from using their language are both attempts at controlling the West, and stem from the West's centuries-long control of them.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
So who did the translation for Microsoft? Did this native speaker get a "license" from the Tribal Elders to speak and write the language in the first place?
Seems to me that if one even buys into the idea of IP around a long-spoken language, any native speaker has just as much right to "license" it as these Tribal Elders.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Anyone up for starting a project to translate Linux in to Map'huzza-gun (or what ever the fuck it is)?
Really, you nailed it well, nailed and counter-sunk. And now we can take it further, what is software, anyway, that it can be patented? Looks to me like a buncha stuff some dude or dudes typed up in a language or languages. Now, what is a novel? Why can't we patent novels?
Just to shake the landscape up, I wish these chilean tribesman well on their pursuits, see if there is a precdent or three that can be set (or un-set actually).
Do we mean stupid like Muslim clerics being upset that their holy book is put in ringtones which they consider disrespectful?
Who says they want to preserve their language? Seems like an issue of respect, or lack there of... much like calling an entire tribe's beliefs stupid. If MS is going to "support" a language, they should have some concept of that culture, who would be the primary users of that language.
Wait, we did this before, didn't we? Taking things from native tribes that didn't belong to us just because we didn't respect their way of life and had a different concept of ownership? In this case, all they wanted was to be asked permission. But, like the EULA, MS assumes they dictate who gives and who receives permission. If MS can morally support DRM, then yes, a language can be owned by a people. It's their collective creation and part of their identification. A culture's language and the culture itself are so close, they are inseparable. Call it cultural identity theft.
Wow, what a hard concept asking permission. But, that's our culture. Pushing our economic/morality views on all other cultures who have something we want. Welcome to global capitalism, Mapuche.
I8-D
I Don't own my native language. Happy?
ghostbar page.
I would start with that "Elvish" or Elvu-zunugu :-) is either a creative work for entertainment purposes
or maybe even art, while Mapu-zunugu is a lingual common serving as the primary conduit for conveying
public and private information in a community. People usually don't barter for a loaf of maize-bread in
elvish but I'm sure they do in Mapuzunugu.
Please stop using the apostrophe immediately.
So let me see if I get this straight -- the Mapuche tribal leaders are making the claim that Microsoft needs their permission to use a language because, well, they say they own this language?
I'm inclined to believe you haven't gotten it straight, because (a) the article is short in details, (b) it's a popular press article, and of course the popular press is well-known for not being extremely accurate.
Presumably we can believe the article that the Mapuche tribal leaders are suing Microsoft. What I'm not so quick to conclude (as most responders here just went ahead and assumed) is that this is framed as an intellectual property case. It could be framed as a human rights case, and in fact, the article does say that the Mapuche grievance is the fact that they were never consulted on anything in the process.
Indeed, the article does mention the possibility of taking this to an international human rights court:
In any case, you are blindly applying your own cultural standards to a set of people who likely do not share them. In particular, you believe that by default, anybody has a right to any piece of obtainable knowledge, with some specific exclusions (e.g., privacy, confidential business information). This cultural assumption is not shared by every group in the world; people in some groups assume just as irreflexively that only some people are entitled to some kinds of knowledge (for example, only members of a certain caste may be entitled to know how to play some instrument). In this case, then the human rights issue has to do with mediation between the standards of two cultures when they clash; the Mapuche will claim that officialdom ought to respect their culture's standards.
Note that all I've said is every bit as much speculation as what you've said. But it should at least demonstrate that this issue is likely very, very subtle. Discussing issues like this fruitfully requires an amount of cultural insight and sensitivity that most people simply lack.
Are you adequate?
This, IM(H)O, is something where the concept of freedom (as in fat-guy-with-a-beard, not a-bud-light) should absolutely apply. Nobody should be able to "own" a language, it is bad enough that we have words that can't be used.
I do not like microsoft, but in this case the "client" is being worse.
If they would have any clue and some morals they would use the energy and money they are putting into sueing Microsoft into making a Mapuche version of OpenOffice (or Koffice i'm easy).
Suing ANYBODY because they want to learn/implement your language is xenophobic.
Of course the "learner" might be wanting to learn your language only in order to con you, and in the case of Microsoft it is certainly in order to get some "public money".
After all Chile has made some "open source" noises, and having a "minority language" implementation is certainly a tentative to drive a wedge into the "open source strategy" of the Chilean governement.
But nevertheless telling that you have to "ask" to learn your language is just telling that you actually deserve about any bad thing that happen to you (but then all Mapuche Indian are not guilty).
So hopefully somebody will throw this stuff out, and somebody else will do something useful for the tribes.
Luckily, with the calibre of survival instinct this action implies I'm sure the culture will be extinct soon enough, their language known only to scholars.
Ironically, these scholars may take advantage of the Mapuche edition of Windows to facilitate their work.
Tragically, they will lose their work in an application crash and, bafflingly, find themselves obliged to reboot.
Turn, turn, turn.
These stories are free but worth money.
Where does it say anywhere that this case is about intellectual property laws, and not about human rights?
Are you adequate?
I guess we might me loosing the spiritual side of this story. These people might very well take as a sacrilege that fact that an "evil" company will profane their sacred language for an "evil" computer program. They're testing the legal way first.
Hardly any of the responders here has any degree of anthropological sophistication. They don't understand how deep culture clashes can go.
Couple this with the assumption (made in the summary) that this case is about intellectual property (which it nowhere says in the TFA.
Are you adequate?
the tribal people beeing pissed about having to actually pay money for something they used to get for free. I
belive it will be easier to get easy access to pirated versions of english and spanish windows versions, now they suddently have to pay for it? AND IT'S NOT THE PROFFESSIONAL EDITION?
I know how bad things are here in Norway, and people here can easily afford to pay for a version of Windows.
call me pretencious (I am sure I did not spell that correctly, and I hope it means what i think it means) But what if these people can not afford to buy the new windows version? I probably would know more about this if i bothered to RTFA (there, now even I have said RTFA, I am so hip)
A computer is a tool, but I am not. I use Linux
As stupid as this lawsuit sounds, it might have some useful consequences - especially if the tribe wins. We like to complain about intellectual property laws, software patents, and how companies are using those to take advantage of us. So maybe, for once, politicians will realize that the laws about intellectual property are flawed?
For once, Microsoft does something right and adds internationalization for some little two-bit language. What does MS get in return? A lawsuit. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
I suppose the natives believe that foreigners who write software in their language steal their souls, much like cameras.
Who's to say that these 'tribal leaders' speak for everyone using the Mapuche edition of Windows? They don't 'own' their language any more than Prince Charles owns British English or the Pope owns the Bible. Now, if they have control over trade within the "Mapuche nation" or whatever, this is a lot like that ministry in France that says e-mail has to be called mail electronique, and they're welcome to embargo Microsoft products, but it'd be ridiculous to say Microsoft can't make a French version that uses the word e-mail. Maybe they prefer it that way in Quebec, and it's none of the French government's damn business. Further, even if we *suppose* that copyrights can be applied in this way, unless their "ancient Indian tribe" is 40 years old their copyright is loooooong expired.
Even if the language was copyrighted or patented, it would have expired already. The court should tell them to STFU.
---------
There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
It's true, but youre too paranoid about indigenous people of Chile, seems that everyone don't kwow anything of my country.
Just FYI, they're a very small, very tight and very defensive of their roots community. The mapuches are in a constant struggle, for their grounds, for their culture, etc. Seeing how they usually deal with their problems, I'm not surprised that they take such an extreme approach.
That one community behaves like this doesn't mean the rest of the country is stuck in some ancient century.
OK, well...
... hope that helps.
"lets just be friends" translates to "jump off a cliff and commit suicide"
"I seek a man who is kind with a big heart" translates to "I seek a man who is rich with a big wallet"
"can we talk" translates to "you're in deep shit and you're gonna get it"
"this is cute" translates to "give me the dough, now!"
"we feel..." translates to "I'm gonna make you feel..."
"marrage" translates to "on a tight leash"
French Canadians don't speak French;
French Canadians speak Queerbecois, also known as Joual.
Yu netives spek einglish bad. We estudients of einglish speik einglish best.
Who's to say that these 'tribal leaders' speak for everyone using the Mapuche edition of Windows?
I doubt they do. What I'm trying to do is to state as strong a case for them as possible; as opposed to what most people in this thread are doing--dismissing them offhand on the basis of things they likely didn't claim. (Or in other words: I'm interested in understanding the way they think, and not at all propping up my ego by making them look like dumbasses.)
Yes, their actual argument (which we do not know, let me remind us) possibly assumes that the Mapuche is a uniform culture (at worst), or that their traditional authorities are entitled to make some decisions about how their language is to be used (at least). It is likely that it also glosses over the fact that we, as Westerners, may judge a lot of their traditional institutions as opressing some segments of their society (e.g. women), and it is quite likely that some (if not many) of their own constituents would agree with us (but which still doesn't mean that they'd like us to impose our cultural standards on them; they may want to reform their own culture).
Still, the point is that this issue will no doubt turn out to be very subtle, that it will require a good amount of anthropological sophistication to understand it, and that the discussion here is sorely lacking such sophistication.
Are you adequate?
How does one. Drop a language.
Can't Microsoft do what they always do? Take Mapudungun, add their own extensions and define Microsoft Mapudungun as the new standard? Then sue the tribespeople for using it?
Somebody should translate those Scientology texts into Mapuzugun. Then sell it to SCO.
Patents and copyrights don't last forever. Wouldn't any claim be useless because it's is (and probably always has been) in the public domain? A language spoken by 400,000 people for hundreds of years could hardly have any claim to IP, if laws in Chile are anything close to US copyright laws. While these indigenous claims may not be based on copyright or patent, they idea that a few tribal leaders can control how it's used is absurd.
Even if Microsoft botches the translation (and they probably won't), it won't have any negative effect. Microsoft probably won't change how 400,000 (probably not technologically savvy) people speak their language, and if they do, well, languages evolve.
The Pentium sound for example is a trademark. So an invocation could be a trademark. However you can't effectively sue unless someone using that mark is passing off goods as being from you when they really aren't (or some other nasty things). Just using the mark is not infringement.
>>> "systems" are ineligible for copyright
Maybe a patent then? Though I'm not sure what technical advance has been made.
Couple of points...
Aucan Huilcaman (the guy behind this) is running for Chilean President. He's more made more column inches out of this at home that most of his other policies combined.
The use of the 'Piracy' word clouds the issue - the primary complaint is that they're pissed off at not being invited to the party. The language seems to be deeply tied into their culture and spiritual beliefs and M$, with hindsight should have spoken to them about issues of cultural sensitivity. It's not unreasonable however to assume that they (M$)thought that they were getting the official line from the Chilean Education Ministry....
I'm a firm believer in free speech, regardless of what the creators of a language say.
I claim this has nothing to do with free speech. This isn't about Microsoft being or not being able to sell this particular product. This is about who gets to decide whether whatever Microsoft sells can be called a Mapuzugun-language product, and as such, whether any legal consequences of such a designation should apply to it.
Are you adequate?
Ecce homo. Este mundus furibundus, eh?
Just found this link (in spanish).
Translation:
The Council of All Lands is preparing a legal action as a result of the agreement between Microsoft, the ministry of Education and CONADI on the Mapudugun, jeopardized in the deprived usurpation of the Mapuche Knowledge. This action appeared in the Courts of Temuco, specifically in the Court of Appeals, on Friday, January 10, 2006, at 11 in the morning.
Specifically, the demand talks about to the use of the Mapudungun in a new version of the operating system Windows, of the Microsoft multinational. Being this software of closed code, that prohibits its free use explicitly (as it could be the modification of the codes, its copy, loan, etc) is a deprived usurpation of the ancestral knowledge. On par of these announcements, a movement is quickly articulating, that looks to generate the social, political and technological bases for the digitalization of the Mapudungun. Actually, Futatraw-mp-sl, that is name of the project, will promote the development of dynamic translations (that allow for the existence of branches of translations for all the variants of the dialect), through social mapuche organizations, academic institutions and the community of users and developer of Software Libre of Chile and the south cone. Within the projects are the translation to Mapudungun of the free operating system GNU/Linux and the creation of contents in mapudungun in the encyclopedia in line Wikipedia, also free, along with the development of educative contents of equally free license.
I feel the need to side with Microsoft on something!
>>> Thus, if the storyteller performs that same story in public, he is violating the law.
Nonsense. He may be convicted by an ignoramus court but he is not violating the Berne Convention from which I quote:
"Article 11ter
Certain Rights in Literary Works:
1. Right of public recitation and of communication to the public of a recitation; 2. In respect of translations
(1) Authors of literary works shall enjoy the exclusive right of authorizing:
(i) the public recitation of their works, including such public recitation by any means or process;
(ii) any communication to the public of the recitation of their works.
"
>>> The person who did the publishing has the copyright for those recordings, not the original storyteller.
Indeed and so the publisher has protection of the recordings - which they can only make with the permission of the storyteller - but not protection over the original work. Aural works are still artistic creations. By making a copy the publisher is potentially breaching the artists rights (unless he has a contract, which could be a "1: can I record you"; 2: "sure" contract). Unless the artist gives up their rights in the original work they're fine. Even if they grant the right to the publisher to reproduce the work electronically they're not giving up their rights as author of the work. That's why you're not allowed to record a live concert (held in private) - you're copying an original artists work.
IANA-Copyright-L.
... the Chilean Government.
I don't know if someone already said this... anyway... the problem here is that Mapudungun (by the way, it's not Mapuzudun) is NOT a written language, and there lies the objections of the Mapuche Elders, the Chilean government wants to make an alphabet, while the Elders want to make another one, quite different... the objections of the Elders are that Microsoft is using the government's alphabet, one wich they not recognize as theirs, instead of using the Elders alphabet wich isn't ready yet... I hope to clarify things a bit, and I hope that my english is understandable!!!
Dumb and dumber.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
... what he is really doing is saying "Please let me continue keeping my people poor and ignorant, or I will lose my position". When a tribe gets more integrated with broader society, tribal leaders (who often rule in the "traditional" manner -- dictatorship) generally lose their traditional perks. They have a vested interest in seeing the young folks ignorant of all those benefits you can get from the devil box. If you, personally, feel that your culture is opposed to seeing the devil box output your language then, hey, all you have to do is not buy a devil box and, blammo, problem solved. But that isn't enough for people who want to control not just *their* culture but also the culture of other people (who they may define as being part of their culture -- an assertation which is akin to saying someone else is your subject or property, incidentally, and which I think should be trusted only when the other guy says "Oh, yeah, the feeling here is mutual"). Incidentally, the whole "cultures are unchanging and static, boo, we should create a living zoo of Native American cultures in their 'natural' habitat uncorrupted by our evil Western colonial impulses" is a crock. Not saying that parent believes in that crock but I've certainly heard it before. All cultures are in a constant state of change. America in 2006 is clearly the same nation it was in 1946 but you can see some fairly major differences (*cough* serious discussion of a black woman for President on the Republican ticket *cough*). Before Japan was unified it was a bunch of fractious tribes who outside observers described as rude and lazy. The French were once fierce warriors that cowed most of Europe. "Asian" didn't even exist as a cultural grouping until white Americans couldn't tell the difference Chinese/Japanese/etc so they just made it up (see above: the ability to define is the ability to control) and it eventually became something with some semblance of meaning to many of the people who fit the wholly arbitrary designation.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Can't Microsoft just rename the language option "Mooboo", then add a bunch of new words and grammatical constructs to the language? That's what they do with everything else.
Given that even the article summary states that the work was done in conjunction with the Chilean Ministry of Education, I think you'll find that "support for all local languages" was simply a checkbox requirement the Chilean government placed on software.
And indeed, this is most likely what the case is about: the Mapuche will claim that the Chilean government excluded them from the process of producing this translation, and therefore skirted the responsibility to uphold the linguistic rights that the requirement was set up to protect. The claim against Microsoft will be that they looked the other way.
Are you adequate?
This is not so simple as some people want to see it. It's not just Mapuche people vs Microsoft, but about the way the Chilean government handles things concerning the Mapuche culture and how, from the POV of the Mapuches, the government's decisions are unfair, not good for them, etc. It's also important to have in mind that the Mapuches are known for their fierce spirit. And not just in this case. Whenever something they consider important is at stake, like their territories, this fierce spirit comes to light. It doesn't surprise me to see that they are handling this problem this way, it's pretty consequent with the way they have handled their other problems so far. I believe this is another chapter in the constantly struggling relationship between the government and the Mapuches. That Microsoft is between it's just one small part of a much bigger and complex story.
The article doesn't say that they believe that nobody should be able to use their language without their permission. The article doesn't mention the term "intellectual property" at all, nor any related term. Those were additions made by Slashdot's article summary.
Are you adequate?
They don't 'own' their language any more than Prince Charles owns British English
Of course not, that would be ridiculous - everyone knows that it's the Queen's English...
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I suppose they would also sue Microsoft if the language was left our of their products, because that would be language discrimination.
Yes, I'm a Mapuche, I live in Chile and I am very proud of it. I currently live in the south of the country (and yes, I have Internet, I use Linux... hell I'm a geek too) Well, I didn't expect that Slashdot would cover this, but since Microsoft is involved... :-)
I have to say that I love my roots and my fathers teached me both Spanish and Mapudungun since I was a child. And, as you can see, I have been trying to learn English and French, but that doesn't mean that I don't like my natives languages.
As you can see in the article, some of our leaders think that Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to translate Windows XP to our own language. But speaking by myself, I have a different view, because I'm younger maybe? Anyways, I believe that they should be able to do it if they want, given of course that they respect our language and they don't degrade it and I think that is the fear that our leaders have: that Microsoft embrace, extend and extinguish Mapudungun.
But I repeat, the are only my POV, not from the Mapuches as a whole. Many people older than me may think different and me and be a lot more conservatives.
PD: You are right about the camera thing. As a matter of fact, my own grandmother still believes that the camera may consume her soul. Of course I don't believe that, but I don't think is a good idea to try to persuade her, since she is very old.
PD2: Sorry for my bad english, fellow Slashdotters.
suing over use of a language? for the first time i hope microsoft wins this case, and i hope they loose their diginity in trying to sue for use of a language.. but on the flip side it's ironic because microsoft would sue for peoples who use vbs, or vbb which is quite funny because that is a (scripting) language.
:P
you know what.. fuck both sides, i hope they both loose the case.
A little search in Spanish got me to an article with more detail:
http://www.nodo50.org/azkintuwe/nov6_5.htm
I'll attempt to translate some of the information that isn't included in the original article:
Original Text:
La declaración además especifica que "somos los mapuches quienes tenemos derecho a salvaguardar, mantener, manejar, desarrollar y recrear nuestro idioma. Conforme al mismo principio, le corresponde al pueblo mapuche decidir si transita a la escrituración de su idioma y qué sistema o método de escrituración es el más idóneo, por lo que vulnera el principio a la autodeterminación mapuche el hecho que un organismo técnico decida imponer la forma de escritura por medio del alfabeto Azümchefe".
Translation: The declaration specifies that "it is the Mapuches' rigth to safeguard, mantain, develop and re-create our language. According to this right, it is up to our Mapuche people to decide if they want their language to be written, and which system is the best one to write our language in. The fact that a technical organization has decided to impose the "Azümchefe" alphabet as the form of writing Mapuche violates our right to autodetermination"
Basically, the authorities in Santiago, and Microsoft, decided on a standard way to write Mapuche without asking the Mapuche people (!!!).
The article goes on, talking about a letter they wrote to Bill Gates (which he obviously didn't read), and reinforced their belief that they are the only authorized source to manage their cultural inheritance, etc.
Lastly, they declare that "it is a paradox that so-called specialists transcribe the Mapundung language and create a grammar for our millenary spoken-only language, while the Chilean education system mantains their policy of negating the rights of the Mapuche children to have a culturally adequate education"
MLUG!
Even if you think these people should "own" their language (something I think is, to put it mildly, idiotic), that would imply that they have some way of confiming ownership. Furthermore, even if that was the case, there was someone willing to translate the software so that person with naturally have the same rights as the other owners, so the point is again moot. IP has reached stupendously moronic levels. Way to go people!
I think the Mapuche tribal elders just stole "bullshit" from us. I want it back!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It seems to me that an open standard for communication, such as a language, is by definition in the public domain.
Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
Brings new meaning to free as in speech.
The best human example I have of the problem of translating significant works is the Bible, but for slashdot I suppose we'll start with computer languages. Have you ever translated a program? Run across concepts that don't translate or limitations of either the source or destination language? Two big languages: C and FORTRAN. C has been used a lot, but is designed for things like writing operating systems. FORTRAN has been used a lot, but is designed for solving sets of equations. You think writing C interfaces to FORTRAN libraries is easy? Try translating FORTRAN to C, or vice versa. Some programs are easy, some are extremely difficult. Going back to the Bible, is that you often run into concepts which DON'T TRANSLATE! How do you write a phrase or sentence in the target language, when the target language lacks a concept that is key to the phrase or sentence? You can try to make analogies, but those aren't guaranteed to work, especially as languages evolve. The analogy might have worked at the beginning, but with time it doesn't work. If we go to science fiction, I'll bring up a book called Babel-17. This was a book about people who committed acts against the state. The problem was that this language (Babel-17) had no concept of "I". Anyone who learned the language subconciously started acting occasionally in a destructive way.
What is the purpose of a "language"? The common use is open communication. If people are supposed to be able to talk in the open with the language and exchange ideas then yes it's in the public domain. If on the other hand the language is used for private communications, and not for open use, then that's debatable but even there it's only use is if it's open.
There's little point to even "copyrighting" a language, but even beyond that if it's an IP it's worthless. Then we can slip into the fact the language is 90 years old. And that IPs need to have spans of 20 or 40. But This is also a different story.
Of course then Microsoft has another option, point out the fact that the language is not being used. just a couple words of it. Which brings up another issue. Imagine if Computer became trademarked. That shouldn't happen but it could have. We have trademarked for using "google" why can't we have one for the word computer. However if we assume this is about language, and the words they used arn't trademarked they should be fine. Even if we have the trade mark for the words, they are used in the correct context, there's little point in making an argument about that too.
It comes down to this. You can't copyright a word and charge people who use that word, you can try, but it wouldn't work. Expand that to the fact you can't copyright a language, and thus the lawsuit is frivilious. Let them go to the Supreme court, and let the supreme court say "what are you stupid" Then Human rights will likely say the same thing. No one has stolen their langauge, they have only offered them an OS that utilizes their language, and as such that should be received kindly, not with a lawsuit.
Microsoft should opt not do business in Chile instead of complying. That should fix the matter posthaste ;)
Mapuche community couldn't care less about Gates' money. The real reason to present the Protection constitutional action they filed in the Temuco's Court of Appeals, is simply that neither Microsoft nor the Chilean government consult them on the topic of the prospected translation. No, isn't also a matter of pride or even intellectual property, the point is that mapuzungun is a language that has various forms or even dialects. the introduction of an operative system that takes one of the many postures on grammar or one set of expressions over the others it's a very strong influence that jeopardizes the idiom's formalization process. One example: the idiom it's called mapuzungun by some, but mapudungun by the vast majority of mapuche people. So guys, it's no so stupid after all, does it? Remember we're talking here of the people that kicked spanish army's arse for three hundred years, using sticks and rocks... they got to fight back, it's on their DNA!! Greetings from Chile
When did this new race get discovered? Get off your high horse every time some sub-ethnic group gets talked to as they should.
The UK Language Ministry admitted in response to questioning that it was investigating the possibility that pirated copies of English may have been exported to the US, Canada and New Zealand in previous centuries. 'All we are interested in doing' said a spokesperson 'is making sure our citizens get the proper returns on their intellectual property' She went on to explain that the UK had devoted millions of man years of development into raising English to its present expressive levels from its Germanic, Anglo Saxon and Norman roots.
She agreed that what was probably needed was a test case to clarify the matter. 'We would pick some arbitrary person, like a mother in Kalamazoo, who has been observed and recorded teaching her child an illegally copied version of our language. Then we will sue the hell out of her. Win or lose, that will encourage others to pay proper royalties to the UK, and ensure that further development of our language can be properly funded'.
I can see it now; Redmond being besieged by 400,000 angry Mapuche. :D
"Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber" -- Plato
The problem was that this language (Babel-17) had no concept of "I". Anyone who learned the language subconciously started acting occasionally in a destructive way.
mod that up.
This actually seems to have happened, more or less, with the Andean cultures in modern northern Chile, Bolivia, and Peru. The people possess a more community/social obligation based, non-monetary economy and society where complementarity and reciprocity are key features. Their integration with a culture that uses money and has a religion that separates god from ourselves has been quite difficult. The self-serving, "I" was not nearly as prevalent among Andean cultures before contact with and domination by the Spanish.
It's an unusual situation and one can't, perhaps, blame Microsoft for just assuming that it was OK. On the other hand, I think we all need to think about other cultures with respect and to learn about their sensitivities before we just plunge into whatever we are about. This is particularly true for Americans, I think, and even more so for gig American companies. Americans have for ages been used to think that whatever they do in the world is OK, eveerybody will understand what is intended; and while many choose to tolerate it and laugh at the more grotesque howlers our American friends present us with, there are not a small number of people who feel that the looming presence of the American elephant-in-a-china-shop is too much.
And while most people in the world don't feel their language is anything special, there are cultures to which their native language is sacred; perhaps these people feel that way. Or perhaps they resent just being taken for granted by the white man's big, greedy corporations all the time. They have lot of reason to think way: illegal logging and mining on their land, drug runners, etc etc. Plus, historically they have been persecuted by white settlers, who regarded them as little more than animals you could kill for sport.
in related news the alliance of disabled people sues microsoft for making windows handicapped-accessible without their permission
also the coalition of afro-americans sues microsoft for using the color "black" in their default vista-theme without paying license fees
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
Think before you mod. Adding inflections left and right does not archaic English make.
Although the Mapuche people are completely wrong IMNSHO, how you are treated as a minority could be a human rights issue, specially when it comes to sometime as precious as your own language.
Natives in Latinamerican countries very often are treated with desdain bordering on racism (and sometimes it is racism, pure and simple).
So it does not surprise me if they may see ulterior motives when the government, an entity rarely in favour of Native's rights, and an international megacorporation, which we know has a really bad reputation, ally themsleves to do something with their language.
They are wrong, but I understand why the may be suspicious.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Such blantant racist insults belong to the gutter.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Many tribal communities have democratically elected leaders (it is not like the Greeks were the only ones that came with the nifty idea you know) or elders. UNless you know something about the Mapuche that we don't you should not be so quick to assume so much.
In Mexico for example, Mayan, Purepechan, Yaqui, Tarahumara and many other tribes refussed to let their children to assist to primary school for many decades.
The reason? Classes were in Spanish, not their native tongue.
Since primary and secondary education in native languages was introduced, uptake and performance of native children has increased dramatically.
As one Mayan teacher said (paraprhasing) : "I used to be tought mathematics in Spanish. The problem was that I barely understood Spanish! The conclussion that teachers were reaching is that we all were stupid...." I have to note here that teachers would normally have been mixed race people, coming from outside the communities and with the stated objective of teaching in Spanish to the native children.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Although in principle I tend to agree that the Mapuche have no real case (based in the scant evidence offered) I find very interesting the patronizing tone of many or the people replying.
Sadly this is a very typical attitude of US people. They tend to think that their way is the only way and the rest can be damned. I will not throw damning examples around, sadly we have plenty of them at this moment in time, instead I will tell an anecdote.
When one senior manager visited a branch office in an Asian country where I was working, we made presentations about several aspects of doing bussiness in Asia. One of the topics was cultural awarness.
After my colleague finished a very thorough presentation, making a clear cut bussiness case of why cultural awarness could give us a competitive advantage in the region, the reply of this individual was to question why we have presented that topic. "I want to do bussiness here, not to become culturally aware" was his most memorable comment.
So no special policies were put in place to deal with local bussinesses. Eventually many of our clients disliked us because, amongst many other things, the company was not adjusting to the local ways and patterns of doing things (as an example, deals could not be closed in one to one meetings, we needed two big cometees, that way nobody in our client's side would feel unduly exposed. We did not close several deals for this reason until I approached a local person and received an explanation of something that was obvious to them).
The manager was USian, and in my experience, not untypical of US management style which assumes the US way is the best (and only) way of doing things.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Maybe they are afraid that Microsoft, after having embraced their language, may decide to extend it.
Microsoft encounters someone with a more flawed and aberrent understanding of copyright ownership than themselves? Now that IS news.
-Styopa
You should avoid absolute statements like this one: "Languages are not created." Not true. I think the creators of Esperanto would have a bone to pick with you. There is also a very strong argument that the administrative latin of the middle ages was a consciously created language.
This should be under 'its funny, laugh'.
What morons. Except for a quick buck i dont see what they are trying to gain here.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Disagreeing with these people is perfectly fine, calling them savages is not.
If it's they're own language, dismiss the suit on grounds that if the suit were found in the indians' favor, the decision by its own logic couldn't legally be rendered into their language.
If the indians are filing in some other language, lodge a countersuit that they're violating whatever language they're filing in in the same manner they allege their language has been violated.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Once again Microsoft thinks they know best. Without consulting the tribe and instead using a government ministry, they have wandered into a publicity nightmare. I think the tribe is angry because they feel disrespected by not being consulted. On the other hand, the tribe looks silly by not embracing change and acting like a bunch of curmudgeons. Microsoft should have gone to the tribal leaders and told them they would like to provide a version of their software in the tribal language: how would they like to proceeed? Especially since the language is basically unwritten and needs an orthography to which the tribe agrees. Then, if the leaders were firmly against this, they could be the ones looking bad and Microsoft would be off the hook. Microsoft could fix this be extending an olive branch and asking the tribal leaders for input. I they are rebuffed, then cancel the project. Localization is one thing that Microsoft does mostly right.
Rather than trying to get a high profile for their language, maybe they're trying to stamp it out and prevent it from spreading.
Maybe they see it as an inferior language that their ancestors saddled them with and they don't want others to have to bother with it.
Why else would they not want anyone else to use it?
Putting moderation advice in your
I've personally observed the behaviour you describe, whenever someone is accustomed to being the big fish in a little pond and feels that their dominance is threatened by Evil Outsiders. It applies equally to any relatively insular group, whether that be a culture (or some small portion thereof, as would seem the case here since there are some 600,000 people in the tribal group), a club, a BBS, whatever.
The other motivation is probably just golddigging. "You pay us enough money and we'll give you rights to our language." -- That's right up there with patents on mathematical principles.
If I were M$, I'd be rethinking whether market penetration for minor languages is worth the hassle, and whether being allowed to do business in Chile brings enough profit to cover the spate of similar legal action they will no doubt encounter in the future. Imagine if every minor language got into the act!!
And if I were a Mapuche, I'd be having similar thoughts about such "activists" (who in my observation, very seldom speak for the majority, and often have no power at all unless said majority are *kept* ignorant), and whether it's in my best interests to let someone else dictate whether I'm ALLOWED to use Windows in my native tongue.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I was personally involved in the preparation of a dictionary of an indigenous language in the United States. Our work was funded by a federal grant and we payed the elders for their time working with us. I believe there are now less than 10 speakers of the language. The elders really want us to get that dictionary done so that there will be some remnant of their language once it's gone. However, in order to work with them, we have to go through a tribal government committee. The committee routinely put up roadblocks to our work. Why? They would say that it had to do with protecting their control of their language, but really it had more to do with egos and using our project to further their personal agendas in some way. These people didn't seem to care at all about the language or its disappearance. Now we probably won't be able to complete the dictionary before the last of the elders are dead and nobody is left who can speak it fluently.
The language in question in this article is clearly more widely spoken, but still, I would not be surprised if this effort were a product of the same kind of self-serving short-sightedness.
In our case, people similarly thought we were going to make big bucks off their language. Apparently they are somewhat confused about the pay scale for academics in the humanities these days, especially grad students.
Even Microsoft is not likely to make much more (any more?) money off of their efforts to translate to this Chilean language. How many more sales will come as a result, people that buy this that would otherwise not have bought Windows at all?
If this group is likely to accomplish anything at all with this lawsuit, it's to tell the world that if you make an effort to support indigenous languages you are wasting your time at best and shooting yourself in the foot at worst. Thanks a lot, Indigenous Network.
It, with utmost efficacy, transforms ordinarily rational men into irrational scrooges.
In the western world, especially in places like America and Canada. There is no concept of ownership of a language. Especially since we've taken our language from the English and French. And they took thier language from other people. It is a bit bizarre since we are so quick to recognize ownership of other things, physical things and conceptual ones.
Apparently these tribes do have a concept of ownership of a language. Now it's up to Microsoft to decide to respect that culture or to ignore it (legally they can just ignore these complaints). You would think that providing software in their native language would make them happy, but again I just see this as cultural differences.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
We live in the post-Sonny Bono world. Copyright does not expire.
I don't think the french government is going to hassle you for being unable to speak French either, they certainly didn't hassle me when I was over there having the audacity to speak English and occasionally say 'merci' in what is likely a very poor accent (I did German in high school). Burger of ham is quite a cool phrase anyway.
Ah, but try to use Breton or any of the other languages spoken in France. While you may not get hassled by using them you may not find anyone who knows them either. Some areas are better than others in the use of languages other than French. Some areas are seeing a resurgence in the local language, such as Gaelic in some Celtic regions.
The French do try to regulate their language, but not for foreigners (I don't see them nuking Canada for screwing with the language..)
Ah but Québécois are protective of their language.
FalconShould there be a Law?
anyone who has realized that French in Quebec actually was very well in danger of being wiped off
What of Ottawa and American Indian languages such as those from the Iroquois Confederacy, aren't they threatened as well?
FalconShould there be a Law?
What the Mapuche are doing here seems downright stupid if they actually want their language to survive.
What would be stupid is if they were to allow someone else to dictate their language. Current they do not have a standardized written language and they should be the ones who decide how the language will be standardized. And with 500,000 users the language doesn't face much risk of going extinct.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Well, if it's an actual spoken language that has been documented anywhere, that argument becomes absurd.
The problem is the language only a spoken language, it is not a written language, so the Chilean government and MS are dictating to them what their written language will be. They don't want to be dictated to about their own language, they want to make their own standardized written language.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I personally know and talk a language that is going extinct (mix of Venetian, German and Slav and it is VERY old.) and would definitely NOT want a corporate entity fubaring it even more and faster.
I hope you'd want the language documented though so it can survive. That's what groups like Ethnologue are trying to do, document and record languages so they will survive. More than 4000 languages are threatened with extinction.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I would say that this is a human rights issue that favours Microsoft. It should be a basic human right to be allowed to communicate with other humans, and so anything that would prevent others from translating something to your language should be cast out.
It is not about communicatons, er the use of thier written language and who can or can not use it. They do not have a written language but they want to be able to standardize a written language. If MS goes ahead and creates it's own standard form they don't have any input, that is what they want. They don't want to say who can and can not use it, only what the standard form will be.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I guess they really don't like Microsoft. Maybe someone should find out if they're interested in a version of Linux localised in their native language?
Ah, they don't have a standard written language, their language is oral or spoken. The Chilean government and MS are basically saying this is how your language will be standardized.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I have lived in Chile for a better part of my life and know first hand how the Mapuche's are treated, they are the original natives of Chile and they are pretty much treated as second to third class citizens.
The Mapuche are may be the oldest people still living in Chile but it appears they weren't the first living there. The oldest known settlement in the Americas is Monte Verde in Chile which has been dated to 12,500 BP (Before Present, which means it's was there before the land bridge between Siberia and Alaska existed), yet archeologists still don't know who settled it. And I noticed in the article you provide a link to it says the Mapuche have been there for 10,000 years, 2500 years after Monte Verde.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Also, software piracy is extremely high in Chile. MS knows this, and I doubt they expect to sell more than a couple of copies of Windows to the Mapuches.
So, in fact, MS is doing the right thing, and those assholes are just getting in the way of people trying to help them.
There are more than 500,000 Mapuches so they are a potentially sizable market. However what they want is a voice in standardizing their language, the Mapuches do not have a written language so what the Chilean government and MS are doing is forcing them to use the written language the government and MS says they will use. They don't wanted to be told what the language will be, they want a say in their own language.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Language is often seen as a virus or, more correctly, a symbiote of homo sapiens. Its not IP, its a evolved communication tool. No permission is neccesary. When does a baby in thier culture (or anyones culture for that fact) have to ask permission to learn a language? IMHO its just thier (probably poor) community attempting to leech a few bucks from M$.
This has nothing to do with the Mapuche wanting a few bucks from MS, what it is about is whether they have control of what their language is. The Mapuche has no written language, their language is strictly oral, spoken. If they have no written language why should MS or the Chilean government decide what written language they will use?
FalconShould there be a Law?
Maybe they see it as an inferior language that their ancestors saddled them with and they don't want others to have to bother with it.
Why else would they not want anyone else to use it?
I didn't read anything in either article about them not wanting anyone else using thier language. Where did this come from?
FalconShould there be a Law?
actually, they live in Chile, copyright laws there aren't dictated by the United States Congress. They actually have their own laws.. and I doubt you know what they are..
if they can't standardize their own written language thier culture may be distroyed.
Then they should do this. As I see it, Microsoft's contribution can be discarded entirely or perhaps they could try and mine it for good ideas. It seems to me that what they are trying to do is get Microsoft to pay for this parallell effort and I don't see that Microsoft should have to do this and certainly not that it is a human rights issue that Microsoft should have to do it.
They are trying to standardize a written language, I've read of five different projects to do this. And they aren't trying to get MS to do it either, MS and the Chlean government went ahead and did it themself without getting input from the tribe. The tribe wants that input.
Chinese create a new alphabet, no forget that, new ideograms for written English then expects you to use the them instead of the Roman Alphabet.
Then let them. This _is_ basically what we did to them when we started transcribing Chinese words into our own alphabet and I still don't see why it should be a human rights issue that we should be forced not to have done that.
Ah but the Chinese aren't required to use Romanized Chinese writing, whether pin ying, Wade-Giles, or any other romanization system. Actually on the mainland, Mao started a program to create Simplified Chinese characters. In traditional Chinese ideograms one ideogram may have several strokes, whereas in the Roman or Latin alphabet the greatest number of strokes is four, for "W", and there are more than 66,000 ideograms in Chinese. Now the average Chineses will never use most of them as they only need about 3000 to have conversational skills.
Ne how,
FalconNe how ma?
Should there be a Law?