Unrefined "Musician" Gains a Global Audience

Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "An unskilled musician performed a catchy pop instrumental for more than one million YouTube users even though he can't play a lick of drums or piano. The 22-year-old Norwegian's tool was stop-motion video, WSJ.com reports. From the article: 'To make "Amateur," Mr. Gjertsen recorded each analog beat and note one by one on video. He transferred the sounds from each video clip into audio files, which he could rearrange with the Fruity Loops sound-editing program — the same software he's used to create his all-digital music in the past. After organizing the sound files into the right order, Mr. Gjertsen reconstructed the pattern with the original video files. In the final product, he insists, nothing about his performance was digitally enhanced. "You have the original sounds from the video," he says.'"

Comments

"Unskilled"?

[daveschroeder]

Just because he can't play piano or drums, he clearly still knows what sounds good, has a sense of beat, tempo, and melody, and knows how to use editing software.

I'd wager most modern music is made just like that, and involves a lot of people who would meet this definition of "unskilled" musician.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[pdabbadabba]

Agreed. NIN, anyone?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Cristofori42]

"Unskilled musician" yes. "Unskilled video editor" I think not.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[eldavojohn]

I'd wager most modern music is made just like that, and involves a lot of people who would meet this definition of "unskilled" musician.

I disagree. I play a number of instruments and have fiddled with drums and keyboard. You'll note that when he's playing drums, he never has to prepare for the next hit. He's never thinking about what comes next. Same on the piano. He's just hunched over with two fingers outstretched. And that's what makes this 'unskilled' versus skilled. If you watch a skilled piano player, their hands are constantly fluidly in motion.

Now, your critique about modern music is unfounded. Yes, I hate N'Sync also and I'm sure that their studio does a lot for them. But it sure the hell isn't micro-sampling like this guy is doing. At some point, it stops being sound editing and it becomes sampling. This man is a skilled sampler but horrible at drums (he never uses anything but one symbol--I mean, there's three or four others, try the ride!--and a little bit of hi-hat).

So while he may 'have a sense' of beat, tempo and melody, sit yourself down at fruity loops and mess around. You'll be pleasantly surprised that after a few hours, you have something that sound cool to you. After a few days, something that might sound cool to others. A few months and who knows?

The man is skilled. Skilled at sampling and editing. He's not, however, a skilled musician. He doesn't record 'tracks,' he records 'samples.' There's a difference and your statement of "a lot of people" and "most modern music" is quite hastily made.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[poot_rootbeer]

"Unskilled musician" yes. "Unskilled video editor" I think not.

"Unskilled musician" no.

"Unskilled performer" yes. "Unskilled composer" I think not.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

he never uses anything but one symbol--I mean, there's three or four others, try the ride!--and a little bit of hi-hat

It's cymbal, not symbol. I'm not a musician and even I know that.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know much about Trent, do you? He plays piano just fine. He plays guitar just fine. I've never seen him play drums, but rumor has it he plays drums too. His piano versions of songs are even available at your local Best Buy, I'd bet.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's just using a different instrument, played in a non-linear way. He's as much a musician as anyone playing a "traditional" instrument. Do you complain about authors writing in a non-linear fashion with a computer rather than linearly with a typewriter?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[SinGunner]

Yeah. And all composers ever suck cause all they do is tell other people what to do.

Your statement is as hastily made as his, only his was more entertaining. You must be one of these modern "unskilled" Slashdot posters.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Blankhorizons]

And I'd wager that you're not a musician. Do a little more research into how a studio works. Also 90% of being a musician isn't simply recording, it's touring, that's where the real money is. If you can sell a million albums at 18 bucks a piece that's 18 million gross sales. If you can sell a million concert tickets at 25-100 dollars a piece, that's a hell of a lot more. And you can tour a ton more than you can write new material and record it

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Simon Garlick]

Agreed. That's a pretty standard Baroque chord progression, and anyone familiar with Bach will spot the harmonic minor touches immediately. The guy may not be able to play the piano, but he certainly knows music.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Lord Ender]

This guy is very skilled at sampling. The computer is his instrument. As a musician, I can tell you that he is unskilled at drums and piano. He doesn't even qualify as an amateur with those instruments.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Keith Handy]

He does use the hi-hat. And he has an excellent ear for music - sure, it has a choppy sound as a result of being, as you say, micro-sampled, but there are harmonies and chord progressions in there that are prettier than what a lot of "real" musicians come up with in their entire lives. To top it all off he displays a self-effacing sense of humor about the whole thing.

-an actual musician.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Thalagyrt]

Yea, but see, the average group/artist gets about 5-10% of each of those sales. So, that really would end up being somewhere around $900,000 - $1,800,000. This even further reinforces what you say about touring, because generally the musicians get a much bigger cut of tour revenue, even though most have to pay for all the tour support themselves. Touring REALLY is where the money is at.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[drix]

I disagree with what you're saying simply because it's wrong--this guy obviously grasps rhythm, melody and harmony; what you're claiming is ludicrous--but since 30 other people have written in to tell you that, I'd just like to point out that the standard by which any art should be judged is whether it's new, interesting, different, thought-provoking and/or aesthetically pleasing. I found this video to be at least four of those. If playing instruments well enables you to achieve that, that's good, but it's not really an end unto itself, artistically speaking. The world is full of extremely well-trained musicians who do nothing but play other peoples' work all day long and haven't a creative bone in their body. To me that's boring. Why do we need more of that? This guy is doing something fresh and innovative, and he deserves credit for it.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anti_Climax]

he never uses anything but one symbol--

In his defense, he did hit the china pan when he lost a stick the second time ;)

Re:"Unskilled"?

[HeroreV]

He's pretty skilled at fashion, too. Who woulda thunk that panty hose and shorts could go together so well?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well this reminded me of something I can repeat as only rumor and heresay. But I was told that it is reported by some of the industry leading recording engineers, that most pop musicians these days can't play their instruments very well. Bad to the point where the have to bring in studio musicians to play for them on the recordings that become the CD because the band members are too sloppy and can't get their songs right enough during the studio session.

Technology definitely makes audio editing easier for the non-talented person. There's a variety of sound and loop libraries available that allows someone without a lot of musical knowledge to arrange loops and sound layers that work well together into songs. It may be cheating, but you could also consider it that they hired studio musicians and song writers and are taking the audio clips and making remixes. I don't really see anything wrong with it. I've also seen traditional classical musicians in the university music school so I know what you mean about watching a talented pianist.

Anyways, that guy's video was awesome. I really enjoyed it, even though I saw it weeks ago... All these different things required to produce a finished product takes some skills and talent, so I don't think he is totally lame. If you gave the same source material he used to 1000 or 1000s of people how many good results would come back that are this good? I bet you could count them on 1 hand.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[SpasticWeasel]

Being a pedantic dick works a lot better when you can spell cymbal

Re:"Unskilled"?

[The Madd Rapper]

For some reason while reading your comment I was reminded of when computer-assisted speedruns became popular and the non-assisted speedrunners complained. You're right that the skillsets are different, but the end result is the same. In each case, I enjoy/appreciate both methods.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

From m-w.com:
Musician
Function: noun :a composer, conductor, or performer of music;

I would say he was composing the music. A composer doesn't know exaclty what's coming next while they are composing, they don't write the music in real time. This guy obviously planned out what he was doing. Did you even watch the video? He does use more that one "symbol" (sic), he uses the hi-hat. And he did have an idea of what came next. If you watch the piano, there are a few clips that he edited in where he is hitting more than one key at once. I would say that planning this out would be harder than just learning and playing the song. Also notice how the piano bench follows him as he plays the piano, it's touches like this that more qualify him as an artist. But I would call him both. He created music, and created it creatively and artistically. Your cynical downplaying of the video makes me think that you are more of a pretentious music nerd that adheres to tradition rather than logic and open minded ness. Oh and the whole point of music and art, which is that it should be about experimenting and deconstructing old mediums by using a new approach.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[funkdancer]

Speaking as a Norwegian, I like his t-shirt. :D

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Eideewt]

Translation:

"As a clueless amateur who has managed to lay my hands on a few instruments, I now prepare to deliver my infallible wisdom. First of all, he's not actually playing those instruments. He just recorded video clips and rearranged them. So you see, he didn't actually have to play the notes in order or at any particular time. Real instrumentalists *do* have to play notes in sequence. Ergo, he is a terrible musician.

Even though I'm a musician in the loftiest, most pure sense of the word, I am not rich and famous. I now mention a current band to show that I am 'with it'. I also hate them for their success. I've never been part of a real recording session, but I know just how it works, and quite frankly, this guy does not meet my own personal standards of musicianship.

So while this guy may be skilled at making music, he is not a skilled musician. This is so obvious that I can't be bothered to explain my logic."

Starting from the top:

Thank you for you explanation of the nuances of playing an instrument. Because we all missed the part where he didn't actually play them. The way he just plunked a few notes then assembled them into a piece was kind of like the point, you know? At the beginning he showed us that.

Now your knowledge of modern music is somewhat lacking, both in the areas everyone should know (current groups) and in the areas you propose to explain (recording). Certainly the amount of editing any particular group needs varies, but speaking as someone with actual knowledge of the field, modern music is very heavily edited, and has been for a number of years. When he says that modern music is made "just like that" he's right on the money. A sample is generally longer than his, but there is a phenomenal amount of cut'n'paste work in every single song you hear on the radio (unless you're listening to oldies or acoustic music).

Nice attempt to make yourself look moderate here. "The man is skilled. Skilled at sampling and editing." These sound like words that would leave George Bush's mouth, by the way. You've managed to develop a strange definition of "musician" which doesn't seem to line up with whether a person makes music. I suggest syncing with reality at your earliest convenience!

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

He claims to be a non-trained musican. Yes, he has some skills but tons of other people have similar skill level. People have been doing this (sampling and sequencing) since the day that Protracker say the light. We just didn't have the internet. I am cool with this, its an entertaining video but it is just that it probably gets hyped like Jesus.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[superlaughtive]

"So while he may 'have a sense' of beat, tempo and melody, sit yourself down at fruity loops and mess around. You'll be pleasantly surprised that after a few hours, you have something that sound cool to you. After a few days, something that might sound cool to others."

Please show us your first few hours or few days of Fruity Loops work that I know you have prepared to back up your claim. Since we know from your use of 'quotes' etc that you are a more skilled musician that this fella, our anticipation and expectations are growing greater each passing hour now!

Re:"Unskilled"?

[awengine]

I can't play any instruments per se. But I made everything you see here with a synth and its built-in sequencer. Am I a musician?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[zoeblade]

The man is skilled. Skilled at sampling and editing. He's not, however, a skilled musician.

This is kind of arguing the semantics of whether the word "musician" includes composers who create music but can't actually play that music. There's also the point that due to the invention of devices that can record sounds and play them back, and with it the genre of music concrete, you can be able to play instruments such as audiotape and digital samplers without having to play them in real time. I think we can agree that this person is talented at the same thing as The Art of Noise and Pop Will Eat Itself (and pretty much any composer who had an Amiga), and hopefully agree that the sampler is a valid instrument. At the end of the day, he's creating music that he can't play live, but he can show a recording of it to other people.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[smellotron]

There's a big difference between composition and music performance, much the same way that there's a difference between coaches/strategists and athletes.

This is, of course, assuming you to mean musician as "performance musician", which you allude to by reference playing an instrument.

He's not performing with a musical instrument. He's creating a composition.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Skreems]

Uh... no. Reznor is pretty talented at a number of instruments, as are the other musicians he occasionally brings in to add to his studio work. Don't confuse industrial with electronic, and especially not with songs assembled entirely from short clips.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Crabbyass]

he world is full of extremely well-trained musicians who do nothing but play other peoples' work all day long and haven't a creative bone in their body.

Just because you don't understand how classical musicians work (and I'm sure this is what you're referring to), please don't make an outright arrogant statement such as this. By your line of pathetic reasoning, Ben Kingsley doesn't have a creative bone in his body because he does nothing but "read other people's scripts all day". Ben Kingsley interprets scripts, just like Marc-André Hamelin interprets musical scores, and they're both frigging incredible at it.

And yes, I'm a trained semi-professional musician, who has been playing/studying piano for 20 years, earned almost two degrees, and will be doing a masters in music very shortly. And you know what? I think this was seriously one of the coolest videos I've ever seen. But I avoided commenting, because I knew it was just going to turn into a pointless argument over whether or not he qualifies as a "musician", and sure enough, that's exactly what happened.

So ligthen up everyone, and give give the kid a break...he was only having a bit of fun, for christ's sake...

Re:"Unskilled"?

[jerrold]

I can't believe no-one has posted this link yet. The video below is about the most sampled break ever a.k.a the Amen Break (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_break). It can be found in old motown songs, R&B, hip hop, drum and bass, jungle, etc. What this kid has done is nothing new. People have been sampling for years. What is amazing about the video is that he was able to create something which was both visually and aurally aesthetic, which not many people can do.

http://nkhstudio.com/pages/popup_amen.html

Re:"Unskilled"?

[daem0n1x]

I am a musician and I prefer music performed live.

But I value works like this, of course. Most modern music is made with a combination of manipulation and actual playing.

Though, IMHO, the process used by our Scandinavian friend is so time consuming that it would be cheaper to learn how to play the instruments. If he took the time to learn how to play, he could compose and perform many music pieces, instead he spent a great deal of time to produce this one and will spend it for every work he creates in the future.

His work, though admirable, is only interesting as a curiosity, it doesn't prove anything. The musical taste of the people has travelled back and forth between the artificial and the natural, I believe electronics are here to stay, but skilled musicians will always be necessary. Music is so much more than combining notes together, there are the subjective senses of feeling and groove that make live music more interesting. What makes an interpretation of a symphony so interesting and other so dull, if they are using the exact same sheets? And can a computer perform a jazz piece, which is always different, and depends a lot on the interaction between musicians?

After all, when the machines can do anything, what will we do?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[drix]

Haha, no, actually I wasn't referring to that at all. In fact I originally had a caveat in there about (good) interpreters of classical music, but I took it out thinking no one would nail me on it--or read the post. I'm a huge classical music fan and I have all the respect in the world for conductors and soloists.

That being said, what does the rest of the orchestra do all day long?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[maxume]

It still needs more cowbell.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[namekuseijin]

I don't have access to youtube here from work, so i can't say. But people are commenting about the process he undertook to get it done, not about the music itself.

I take it the music is barely ok and perhaps the only "innovative, thought-provoking" artistic features in it is the carefully methodic process by someone who has enough time in his hands to do so...

Creative? perhaps. Though-provoking? no. Great? absolutely not.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a pedantic dick works a lot better when you can spell cymbal

What a great way to start my morning. Being called a "pedantic dick" with it moderated +5 Funny. Yeah, people already gave me shit for that above.

Thanks, you know for all the effort I put into posting on this site, nothing is as rewarding as comments like these.

OT eldavojohn

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Abcd1234]

Creative? perhaps. Though-provoking? no. Great? absolutely not.

So you freely admit you haven't listened to the music, yet you feel qualified to make these judgements? Wow... that's incredibly fucking retarded.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[enharmonix]

The guy may not be able to play the piano, but he certainly knows music.

That's the impression I got, and without too much effort I found another video of him improvising on keyboard (I'll try to find the URL, but it's also on YouTube). He may not be great, but he certainly knows what he's doing. As you pointed out, anybody using CPP progressions has almost certainly learned music in a college/university setting. My wife plays percussion (including some piano), and she noticed that he held the drumsticks correctly and that he curled his fingers correctly at the piano. He might not have played the song, and perhaps he doesn't even play well live, but he is certainly not an amateur.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[namekuseijin]

That was not directed at the music -- which as I said I didn't hear to and am not seeing people comment upon.

I was aiming at the unoriginal stop-motion process.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[bhsurfer]

As an aside, I think that the typewriter solo in Brian Eno's "China My China" off "Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy)" is another good example of someone using a non-traditional means of making music and coming up with something cool. I smile every time I hear the thing go *ding*.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[poser101]

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, a musician is defined as: One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

In polish slang, Cymbal basically means dumbass dick

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Crazy Man on Fire]

I was aiming at the unoriginal stop-motion process.

What about the unoriginal "painting" process used by so many artists? Or the unoriginal "film" process used by all those movie producers and directors? Or that unoriginal "acting" process used in the theatre? I guess there's not much to be excited about in the art world, since it's all unoriginal...

Re:"Unskilled"?

[Anonymous Coward]

...modern music is made "just like that"...

Complete and utter bullshit.
In the case of Pink, Justin Timberlake, and all of your other pop bullshit, perhaps.
In the case of your Orbital, Digweed, and all of your electronic material, perhaps.
In the case of Snoop, Lil' John, and all of your whatever you want to call it, perhaps.
In other cases that I'm currently too preoccupied to recall, perhaps.

I consider none of the above a musician.
Some are talented composers, others talented performers who milk others talents.

IMO a musician isn't one who 'composes' music. That's a composer. Composers write, arrange, "cut and paste".

Musicians perform. Musicians are the people we watch in amazement as they produce music instantly from their chosen instrument, already in time, without a cut/paste process. Not after 10 hours of silence, plopped in front of a computer, letting a machine show you where things need to be to remain in time. They use developed skills, produce rythm, and keep time without the aid of machines.

What he did was compose a piece, but rather than on paper, chose to do it in an electronic medium.

This does not make him a musician.

I've a feeling he'd be mighty boring to watch perform his music. How about you?

Re:"Unskilled"?

[namekuseijin]

The point is: what are we discussing here? The music? The stop-motion approach to music composition? The video itself?

Yes, acting, filming, music composition are all unoriginal by themselves. What makes them interesting is the individual genius behind each artistic expression. I don't think a youtube video is exactly that, but then, i'll save it for when i actually see it.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[CowardWithAName]

This man is a skilled sampler but horrible at drums (he never uses anything but one symbol--I mean, there's three or four others, try the ride!--and a little bit of hi-hat).
I'll drop the "symbol" != "cymbal" thing, and I agree that the video doesn't indicate that he has any talent as a drummer (aside from his proper stick grip and use of kick with crash, which could indicate knowledge, not talent).

But did you really watch TFA?

You didn't notice the hi-hat backbeat throughout the main drum riff? Not to mention the amusing ricochet of the stick off the china cymbal in the first section... oops, I just mentioned it. Oh well.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[mmkkbb]

Don't confuse Reznor with industrial either :)

Re:"Unskilled"?

[danpsmith]

Agreed. NIN, anyone?

Definitely, and being as he's such a fine musician, I really can't wait for the live performance. Oh wait.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[rickshaf]

daveschroeder certainly asks a thought-provoking question and my own experience bears that out: My sister's first husband was an artist. Although he could draw reasonably well, he devoted most of his efforts to making enormous "blow-ups" of images of various aircraft, boats, etc.. His "technique"? He divided the image he wanted to blow up into a grid, and then just laid out a much bigger grid on the medium on which he would paint the final image. He then did a square-for-square transfer. Anyone could do it, but only he was. Back then, in the early 70s, I thought he wasn't much of an artist, but that he was more of an artisan, mainly because he was only transferring someone else's image to a much larger canvas. Now, I'm not so sure. We have folks sampling little riffs from recordings and weaving them into other recordings in (sometimes!) interesting ways. We have artists who make interesting visual art by creating collages out of materials they didn't create themselves. We have photographers who make pictures of scenes they didn't create, but, rather, present in unexpected and interesting ways. And, of course, we have movies built around special effects that are pretty darn special, allowing a story to be told that couldn't have been told in any believable fashion only a few short years ago. If we can use special effects to produce movies, why can we not use them to produce music? I'd suggest that it's the finished product that counts. If you don't think a piece of is art, don't buy it, watch it, or listen to it.

Re:"Unskilled"?

[chucken]

I disagree. I play a number of instruments and have fiddled with drums and keyboard. You'll note that when he's playing drums, he never has to prepare for the next hit. He's never thinking about what comes next. Same on the piano. He's just hunched over with two fingers outstretched.

Although you can bet that he's completely overplaying the "I've never touched a keyboard or drumkit before" in terms of his 'hunched' posture etc. He might even have a midi keyboard, etc.

Hair

[jamesl]

Its the hair, man.

Re:Hair

[Tablizer]

Its the hair, man.

With hair like that, you can ONLY be a musician/artist. No cubicle box co. would hire that hair.

Re:Hair

[Cederic]

The hair? You must've missed the pink-shorts and black tights combo.

Re:Hair

[Anonymous Coward]

Jerome, that guy is hot!

Man I Dig That Crazy Beat!

[RailGunSally]

He should take it on the road!

Re:Man I Dig That Crazy Beat!

[bahstid]

Had you been to a Dj Shadow, Coldcut or even Hexstatic concert in the last two or three years, you would have seen that this can and is done live...

Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

So what? Is this really news?

So he sampled sounds, put them in a "sequencer" and created a pattern appealing to the ear.

Tangerine Dream and a bunch of other krauts were doing this 30 years ago.

Am I missing something?

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[ezzthetic]

By the way, it isn't "Fruity Loops" anymore - it's "FL Studio", and has been for a number of years. Sanitarium objected to the original name.

The software designers thought it was unlikely that anyone would confuse their sequencing software with a breakfast cereal, but apparently Sanitarium had in mind a situation in which they might want to give away CDs with cereal.

Also, they discovered that IT executives tended to fall about laughing when they told them the name of the software.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

What are you talking about? I think you responded to the wrong post.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[mochan_s]

1. He is unskilled musician. The others were highly skilled musicians.
2. They didn't also have the video sample as well - only audio.
3. They didn't post it on YouTube.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

He is unskilled musician. The others were highly skilled musicians.

there were no "high skilled" sequencer technicians at the time. It was an emerging technology. Most of these guys in the krautrock genre were doing experimental music, a lot of them probably had little real music training.

As for the rest? Yeah, the video wasn't there. Is this what really makes it newsworthy?

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

So he sampled sounds, put them in a "sequencer" and created a pattern appealing to the ear.

Ahh, what a question. In my day we would have put it this way:
But is it art?

After all, the same could be said of Beethoven:

All he did was imagine sounds, write them in the right sequence on paper and create a pattern appealing to the ear.

...just another kraut doing this 200 years ago!

And, yes, you are missing something!

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Simon Garlick]

He is unskilled musician.

I have always relied on the definition of music as it was taught to me by my first college music professor: "Music is sounds and silence organised in time".

As far as I'm concerned this guy is very skilled at organising sounds and silence in time. Ergo, he's a skilled musician. He's just not a skilled instrumentalist.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Perseid]

In case you haven't realized it yet, not everything posted on /. is earth-shattering news. This video was neat. I enjoyed watching it. I bet he enjoyed making it. All is well with the world. Relax.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

And, yes, you are missing something!

Ok, mr insightful, you care to elaborate on this? My experience is that when people leave thigns this open ended they're normally talking out of their ass.

After all, the same could be said of Beethoven

Actually, not in the same context. Beethoven actually had the dexterity and skills to play this in real time. We're talking more about sampling and creating a pattern that is programmed into a machine and played back by a machine. The closest you'll get to that prior to electronics is the self-playing piano.

It seems to me that the story isn't about a guy who wrote a song (on paper) but rather assembled a song (in sampled sounds). If this is the same thing to you as Beethoven than this is the same as any other song ever writen making this even less of a story. So, it seems that we're back to my original point.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[arose]

Beethoven actually had the dexterity and skills to play this in real time.

Beethoven could play piano and drums at the same time? You learn something new every day...

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Safiire Arrowny]

Why on earth would they name a health food company something so close to sanatorium? A look at their web page does't say anything about Sanitarium making Froot Loops anyway, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Kellogg's makes Froot Loops.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[pimpimpim]

How did YOU think he became deaf?

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Qbertino]

Tangerine Dream and a bunch of other krauts were doing this 30 years ago.

Yeah. A bunch of 'krauts and one o' them Frog-Eaters.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[klang]

4. They didn't have 1,707,174 on YouTube

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[mshiltonj]

Beethoven could play piano and drums at the same time? You learn something new every day...

Old news. He gave a great performance in Bill And Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Delphinios]

By "Playing" with his "Instruments" all the time!

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me elaborate...

Beethoven actually had the dexterity and skills to play this in real time.

Fine. Many composers did not. It is not a necessity for what Beethoven and many other composers did. He is famous, not for his playing, but for creating the pieces that others played and continue to play to this day. Creation of the work and actual playing of the work are two separate arts and skills. That's why there are performers who buy songs written by others to perform.

This particular piece is somewhere between the two acts.

The closest you'll get to that prior to electronics is the self-playing piano.

Now that's just silly! To compare the creation of this particular piece to sitting down at a player piano and pumping the pedals to create a new song... I won't even discuss it.

My experience is that when people leave thigns this open ended they're normally talking out of their ass.

Oh, wow! Does that ever give me a new idea for my sampled video! Stay tuned...

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

To compare the creation of this particular piece to sitting down at a player piano and pumping the pedals to create a new song... I won't even discuss it

I can understand why... because it's not silly. The "punch card" styled sheet that feeds information to a player piano is not that much different than using a sequencer. Granted, you have much more control over the tones and (potentially) the samples you use but it's still playing certain notes at specific times for a duration based on a "script". As many other users have pointed out this is also non-different from the "mods" music files that were fairly popular in the late 80s until the advent of mp3.

I wrote a number of mods myself, most weren't very good (IMO). I'm not a musician either nor did I take what I was writing seriously. In all honesty I don't think it took much skill to be able to pump out something with a good rhythm to it, I just was never really happy with my own final product.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[fatphil]

The chamberlin (and after it the mellotron) was designed around this sample playback idea, and that predates the Kraut techno scene by many decades (it comes from the 40s). Of course, you had to actually invoke the playback in real-time, so it's still as much of a skilled musical instrument as any other keyboard instrument.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Keith Handy]

He's just not a skilled instrumentalist.

By the way, the video only says he doesn't play drums or piano. I watched another video of his, and he credits himself with the guitar and harmonica playing in the background. So he's not some freak of nature that never played an instrument before and then one day, out of nowhere, composed a piece of classical-sytled musique concrète on video.

Sorry if that sucks some of the magic out of it!

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

The "punch card" styled sheet that feeds information to a player piano is not that much different than using a sequencer. Granted, you have much more control over the tones and (potentially) the samples you use but it's still playing certain notes at specific times for a duration based on a "script".

A player piano used scrolls of music arranged/composed by someone else. The only effort from the player involved physical exertion to make the scroll move, provide vacuum to drive the key mechanisms, etc. It is precisely equivalent to picking up the tone arm on a phonogragh and placing it on the record or pressing the "play" button on a DVD/CD player. It involves no skill, no art on the part of the player.

Now, composing/arranging those notes, the sequence they are played in, the duration, etc., that involves skill. And it is precisely the same set of skills that Beethoven used 200 years ago. Then, in order to preserve and communicate those ideas to others who would actually play them, he transcribed them to paper. That paper copy is the equivalent of player piano rolls/phonogragh recocords/CD/DVD NOT the act of composition. Only the medium changed.

As far as mod files go, if you are doing nothing but downloading and playing mod files, then you are in the player piano/phonogragh/CD world. If you are actively creating those mod files, then you are composing just as surely as Beethoven was. Now, whether it is any good or not...

From your own response:
I wrote a number of mods myself, most weren't very good (IMO). I'm not a musician either nor did I take what I was writing seriously.
Aha! You admit yourself that, although you could complete the mechanical process, the end result was not worth listening to. The key phrase is "I'm not a musician". Hmmm, maybe we are arguing about the definition of "musician"? Or "composer"? Or whatever the hell mix TFA was originally about?

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

All is well with the world.

You're american, I presume.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[drsquare]

Are we going to have a Slashdot story for every 'neat' novelty video posted to youtube?

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

The renastering/video editing software and computer it runs on doesn't count as an instrument?

My music professor, who gave the same definition of music, said that a instrument is anything capable of producing sounds orginized in time. Ask the guy who plays spoons, a comb or a wash-tub base...
Also, you might be interested in the cell phone symphony (not the one by imptovanywhere, but the other one).

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

I wouldn't call 20-25 years "many decades" but the sampling aspect of it is very correct.

Actually, early TD is very heavy into the use of the mellotron. Edgar Froese is considered one of the more proficent mellotron muscians.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[east coast]

Now, composing/arranging those notes, the sequence they are played in, the duration, etc., that involves skill.

You're missing the point that someone created the scroll for the player piano. The effort to create this scroll is not much different than the effort it takes to program a sequencer. I'm not talking about the actual playing of the scroll itself.

Aha! You admit yourself that, although you could complete the mechanical process, the end result was not worth listening to.

Uh, no. I said it wasn't very good. It was still music. Don't take my statement as meaning "I couldn't get two notes to go together to save my life". I just felt that in light of what others had produced most of what I created was fairly simple. It was a random musing, by my standards, but was far from just pressing a few keys to make some noise come out the other side. My "compositions" actually had structure and a very elementary musical value. I was the equivalent of most guys who buy a guitar in the hopes of being the next Jimi Hendrix or Dave Mustaine... I enjoyed it, I played around with it, I could make some music but it was far from being something to "put to wax".

As far as arguing if this guy is a musician or composer? Actually, I'm not worried about what label he gets stuck with to be honest with you. I'm merely pointing out that what he's doing isn't much different from programing a sequencer. It's not that he's untalented but I'm just not understanding why this was frontpage slashdot material. Is it neat in it's own right? Sure. But I think we're getting away from the "news for nerds" ideal. I could find a dozen pages with something neat on them that uses the types of technology and science we discuss here but I'd find myself hard pressed to submit them as newsworthy.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[ezzthetic]

Oops, you're right - it's Kellogs. I was confusing it with another court case involving Sanitarium here (Australia). However, there is a reason for my confusion - John and Will Kellog founded the Battle Creek Sanitarium - that's where the rival food company gets its name from, and why Kellogs and Sanitarium tend to get linked in my memory. And hopefully that answers your question.

IDM

[mushadv]

That's essentially the concept of IDM; taking sounds from different sources that shouldn't work in any coherent sense and making them come together musically. This doesn't even go that far, sampling's been around for years. Also, "musician" refers not only to those who can play musical instruments, but also to those who compose musical works. He fits the criteria, as far as I can tell.

Re:IDM

[jpardey]

For a genre called "Intelligent Dance Music," that makes a lot of sense.

Re:IDM

[mushadv]

Despite the name, it's really not that pretentious a genre, I swear.

Re:IDM

[vorpal22]

The idea behind IDM is not that it is somehow more intelligent than other forms of music, but more that it is music designed to make the intellect dance (i.e. it messes with your head because of its atypical use of sounds, instruments, shifting time signatures, etc). I personally used to love the stuff before I burnt out on it. Very interesting, very bizarre, and almost physically impossible to dance to. Going to IDM shows was quite the experience, because it essentially consisted of a room of 300+ people just standing and listening - and some of the more adventurous possibly swaying slightly - to the undanceability of the music. It seems to appeal, too, to a good amount of the geek / nerd scene; at least that was my impression by the people I saw and met at the shows, and it was a big plus for me.

Re:IDM

[superlaughtive]

"taking sounds from different sources that shouldn't work in any coherent sense and making them come together musically."

This reminds me of IDM taken to the extreme and under short deadlines which I've been following - "Iron Chef of Music" contests. They sample from a 1- to 2-minute sound recording and manipulate it into IDM-style songs. Some don't seem to have much to do with the source, but some keep it partially intact so you can hear the process.. In either case, some really great music coming out of that contest. Sometimes I find relatively well-known IDM musicians "competing".

Re:IDM

[XnR'rn]

When the name was invented the tongue was held firmly in cheek.

Re:IDM

[emilng]

The genre isn't pretentious, just the people who listen to it and this is coming from someone who listens to it.

Re:IDM

[jpardey]

All I meant was that the name IDM does not conjour up notions of unusual samples somehow fit together in an interesting way. I'd usually call that... sampling. Creative sampling. But still, perhaps, in which case it retains its title of worst named genre ever (to say nothing of the music, which I am not versed in). Nothing against anything you said or against the genre, just that it seemed a bit odd to consider that a core thing to "Intelligent Dance Music."

Career path

[chill]

His skill at turning someone with zero musical performance skill into something entertaining and presentable shows he could get a job as a pop music producer. Hell, he can't do any worse than the pimps who churn out the pop tarts we see on stage today!

Re:Career path

[Rob the Bold]

His skill at turning someone with zero musical performance skill into something entertaining and presentable shows he could get a job as a pop music producer. Hell, he can't do any worse than the pimps who churn out the pop tarts we see on stage today!

I think that's his point. That the 'musician' in much of today's recorded music is actually the producer/editor and not the person you hear singing/playing the notes that make up the music. The music is the editing, the editing is the music.

Re:Career path

[Perseid]

Editing has always been a major part of most recorded music. It's just that with "today's" recorded music editing has become more sophisticated. The problem with music right now lies not with the editing, but with the source material.

Re:Career path

[Ricdude]

Oh, come on. Even "The End" by The Doors was two takes spliced together in the middle. Was that cheating?

Moo

[Chacham]

How do i watch this without installing Flash?

Re:Moo

[Cybersonic]

Use the Video Downloader firefox plugin: https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2390/

Then use VLC http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ to play the resulting file.

Re:Moo

[minus_273]

exit out of X, recompile your kernel with the correct modules (make sure you run make clean and make mrproper first). edit grub to load the new kernel, reboot and you should be all set.
if that does not work, grab a live cd and burn it on yout back up machine (you had one right?) boot up your machine from the live cd then mount the hdd and modify grub to load the old kernel. its as simple as that.

Re:Moo

[dch24]

I'm behind a corporate firewall and youtube.com is blocked. Is the same video on google video (it's not blocked...go figure) -- or would someone like to post it somewhere else?

Thanks!

Re:Moo

[dch24]

Never mind, it's on Google video.

Re:Moo

[Anonymous Coward]

Help!

I'm being held prisoner in a chinese laundry!

Re:Moo

[Lord Ender]

You forgot to remind him to do make bzimage instead of just make. Even with something as simple as that, some people actually forget, believe it or not.

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

Well, luckily i got three answers before some idiot modded me as Troll.

Sheesh, i must have ticked someone off.

Re:Moo

[minus_273]

you recompiled your kernel?

Re:Moo

[Chacham]

you recompiled your kernel?

Yeah, but the darn thing still won't pop.

This will ultimately lead to. . .

[Loadmaster]

a new Adult Swim cartoon. Count on it. It's like a live action Tom Goes to the Mayor.

Swi

Re:This will ultimately lead to. . .

[kimvette]

It is very likely that Family Guy or South Park will pick up the meme sooner. Family Guy lives on pop culture references, and South Park will spoof just about anyone for any reason.

Wow...

[Codename46]

Makes me wonder what good piano has done for me for the 12 years I've studied it. =(

Re:Wow...

[TheUz]

yeah, moving a person's frame of mind and/or mood using your fingers ...
hammer strokes on wires becoming unadulterated glory within those who listen...
waste of time. trivial skill. = )

Retro!

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

This reminds me of the tracker modules that saw a lot of use on the Amiga.

Re:Retro!

[mushadv]

The modern incarnation of the tracker concept would be Renoise. It has VST support and other things that electronic musicians would expect from a studio application, with the efficient interface only a tracker provides. It's also only $60, which is trivial compared to FL Studio, which is something like $300 for the fully functional version. [/ad]

Re:Retro!

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed!

Youtube's impact on the music scene

[thebigo195]

Another example of a great piece of music (or something like it) that only works when accompanied by video. We'll be seeing more and more developments in this direction thanks to Youtube! See Chuck Klostermann's recent article in Esquire for a full dissection.

Girl you know it's true.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh Ooh Ooh, I love you.

umm

[illuminatedwax]

So basically he made a MIDI track using live instrument samples?

Now this is cutting edge stuff here - simply by dictating what pitch, how long, and when notes should be played, he was able to "perform" an entire song!!

Can you imagine the potential of this? Why, you could be an entire orchestra by yourself! In fact, you could even perform this kind of trick LIVE - simply substitute musicians skilled in their instruments for the samples, and in order to "control" them, you could provide them with the musical instructions somehow on paper. Of course you'd have to implement some kind of global timer to keep them all together, but it seems very doable!

Re:umm

[Midnight Thunder]

Can you imagine the potential of this? Why, you could be an entire orchestra by yourself! In fact, you could even perform this kind of trick LIVE - simply substitute musicians skilled in their instruments for the samples, and in order to "control" them, you could provide them with the musical instructions somehow on paper. Of course you'd have to implement some kind of global timer to keep them all together, but it seems very doable!

I am sure it is doble and there are probably a few dozen /.s planning to prove that it is.

What makes this video interesting is the orginality and this is what art is often comes down to: it is not the ability to do it, since many people could probably do it, but actually making this real and sharing it for all to appreciate. A copy of an art piece is still art, but it not original art where the artist went the process of play, experimenting and realisation. So for those /.s thinking "meh", consider that he actually did something about doing it, no matter the approach he used.

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

I'm just making fun of the ridiculous gimmick, as if splicing sampled notes together to create music is anything new.

The real success of the video is, like you said, the work that went into it, the actual composition. There are thousands of people making MODs and MIDI files; this guy just added the video. So: premise stupid, execution excellent. Kind of the opposite of modern art.

Re:umm

[hpycmprok]

So basically he made a MIDI track using live instrument samples? Now this is cutting edge stuff here - simply by dictating what pitch, how long, and when notes should be played, he was able to "perform" an entire song!!

Nothing new about the technology he used. The real point is that he created a new composition using that technology.

Can you imagine the potential of this? Why, you could be an entire orchestra by yourself! In fact, you could even perform this kind of trick LIVE - simply substitute musicians skilled in their instruments for the samples, and in order to "control" them, you could provide them with the musical instructions somehow on paper. Of course you'd have to implement some kind of global timer to keep them all together, but it seems very doable!

This method, in fact, was once much more popular than it is today. Ensembles of musicians of all sizes up to full orchestra read music to entertain live audiences. The global timer was the conductor.

But I suspect you already knew that and were just trying to sound clever.

Just a different type of technological tool for the real creative force: the composer. Orchestras are the puppets of composers, even after those composers are dead.

The methods this person used are not new, but they are valid. Anyone past their sophomore / junior year in college would know this from having paid attention in humanities, much less having taken intro to music as an elective. Tearing down others doesn't make you look smart.

Hpy

Re:umm

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought most modern art was 1. Stupid premise, one that involves minimal skill needed in execution anyway, 2. Mega BS hype, often elitist 4. Profit!

Well, that covers at least 95% of works that people call "modern art". The other 5% may actually have something to them.

Re:umm

[Anonymous Coward]

I made this point to another reply, but the point is that the angle of the story is all wrong. He made a great composition at great labor, but the methods used - having an "unskilled" musician make music by the MAGIC of composing - just aren't interesting. The stop motion, the song itself, all those things are interesting. The focus of the story, the "amateur" part, is the least interesting part of the story.

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

Well, to be more accurate, they come up with a one and only one idea and base an entire work completely off of that. There's no skill involved, either; really they might as well write the idea down on paper, because that's all it's worth.

"Cover a city block in syrup"

Re:umm

[hpycmprok]

they come up with a one and only one idea and base an entire work completely off of that

Often music is made up of small repeating ideas that are combined and recombined in interesting ways. Not to compare the subject of the original story to Beethoven, but the 5th symphony states its entire subject in the first three notes. Then, just to make it clear, it states it again in the second three notes.

Then the motive of three notes is repeated, varied, recombined, and explored for about 90 minutes. In fact, music that didn't repeat itself or make reference to earlier themes at all would sound random. On the other hand, much modern music is so repetative as to drive me crazy.

Short drive, I know...

Hpy

Re:umm

[SinGunner]

The Brown Derbies have been doing what the GP suggested for some time. Their version of "Take on me" by A-Ha is fantastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_derbies

Re:umm

[Lord Ender]

whoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo oooooooooooooosh!

is the sound the joke made as it soared over your head and out of the auditorium.

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

Yes, but that's just it - he explores that musical phrase. Modern artists would (and have) simply repeat that one phrase on loop for ninety minutes instead of writing other music around it, telling a story with it, instead of weaving it into something, making it into a journey. What I mean when I say modern artists base an entire work off a single idea is this:

"I am going to collect toothpicks that people have thrown away." or
"I will cover this city block in syrup." or
"I will get a whole bunch of funhouse mirrors and set them up in interesting ways."

And then they do it. And that's it. They don't bother to think beyond this first idea. Then, only afterwards, they make up a bunch of bullshit about why this is Art. Basically a single "gosh, that's neat" idea suffices for art these days. That's sad and pathetic.

Re:umm

[Anonymous McCartneyf]

They can't. Yoko Ono already used the "just write the ideas down on paper" idea. (Remember Grapefruit?)

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

If you think unoriginality is going to stop these people...

Re:umm

[russryan]

I date myself, but one of the phenomenal events in recorded music was "Swithced on Bach" by Walter (now Wendy) Carlos. This was a presentation of some of Bach's most popular works with a Moog Synthesizer. The difficulty was that the song had to be "programmed" notes at a time with patch cords (analog programming!). It was at least as laborious as the presentation here, and with much more complex material.

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

So you're saying Fruity Loops and stop motion animation are "phenomenal events"?

The Moog thing was simply the first proof of concept of programmable music; not anything interesting otherwise.

Re:umm

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out this vid for an amusing dig at modern art:
http://www.bedroomphilosopher.com/2006/01/10/im-so -postmodern-lyrics/

Re:umm

[Blakey Rat]

Wow you're cynical. Smile.

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

ok :)

Re:umm

[russryan]

You are right about "first proof of concept". However, the ultimate judgement is on the results. This fruity video pales in comparison (my opinion) to the Carlos presentation of Bach. In "stop motion" Will Vinton wins in video, but I am not aware of any other good pure audio examples. Any suggestions?

Re:umm

[illuminatedwax]

How about every single .mod ever made? Unreal Tournament's music is made like that, I believe.

Re:umm

[LittleBigLui]

[Beethoven's] 5th symphony states its entire subject in the first three notes

Four. The first three just sound like morse code by themselves.

Re:umm

[Midnight Thunder]

No comment :)

Re:umm

[Maxo-Texas]

That's really cool. You always have someone to go to the movies with.

Funny

[anaesthetica]

If someone submitted the link to this video a month ago when it first appeared on blogs and Digg etc it wouldn't have been accepted as a story on Slashdot. Funny how the Wall Street Journal's description of the video, spare interview, and short backstory showcasing their world-class investigative journalism (the same that doggedly followed the Enron debacle) makes this YouTube clip a legitimate story to post on Slashdot's front page.

I'm not complaining about it being here, or complaining that the Wall Street Journal submits its own stuff. Just funny how a random link becomes legitimate, that's all.

Re:Funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. It's hardly noteworthy that this video has been watched over a million times.

Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, thanks, I saw that same link in the summary.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

O thank you, your comment is one of the funniest i have read on slashdot in quite some time, i needed a good laugh.

Re:Redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

You're welcome even though I am a different person than the one who made the comment, I am also known as anonymous coward. It really seems like I'm just talking to myself now.

Back in the day, we had .mod files

[ebers]

Mod files were the old amiga standard for doing this, except they didn't have much space for samples so all tonal instruments were just one sample played at different rates. It was amazing what could be done with just four notes at once. A song was typically 100 KB.

Nice to see what the little man in the synthesizer actually looks like, though.

Re:Back in the day, we had .mod files

[icebrain]

Holy crap, I remember those! Anyone have something that'll still play them? I have a few I'd like to convert to MP3 format, for old times' sake.

Re:Back in the day, we had .mod files

[RedWizzard]

I'm sure there is stuff around that will play them. Start here. As a last resort you could always use UAE.

Re:Back in the day, we had .mod files

[tepples]

Holy crap, I remember [mod/s3m/xm/it]! Anyone have something that'll still play them?

Try OpenMPT (MODPlug Tracker), which is now free software. I used it to arrange the Russian music for LOCKJAW.

Re:Back in the day, we had .mod files

[Dan East]

Holy crap, I remember those! Anyone have something that'll still play them?

Of course. The format is still in widespread use, although typically more than 4 channels are employed these days (and they aren't hard-coded to left and right channels, as with the Amiga). There are many Pocket PC, Gameboy and Cellphone games that use tracker style playback (most completely MOD compatible) to save storage space.

MikMod, fmod and Hekkus are three different libraries currently used by game developers for mod playback. However since flash storage has increased dramatically over the last couple years, more and more developers are using mp3 format. So that may finally put an end to the use of MODs.

Dan East

Re:Back in the day, we had .mod files

[XnR'rn]

Speaking of which. I stumbled upon MO3, which is basically a mod, with samples compressed with mp3. Quite fun stuff was made with this, and still around 100ish kbytes.

Bring on the remixes ...

[guysmilee]

Bring on the remixes ... a little star wars kid action and we got a serious music video!

MySpace

[gt_mattex]

This kid really is awesome. His editing skills are unreal.

Check out his MySpace page. He has other material apparently.

Re:MySpace

[murderlegendre]

I'm with you on awesome. You never know, a talent like we see in Florian Schneider might come around more than once, in a lifetime.

Kraftwerk has been such a fantastic influence on techno music, and popular music in general. To me, the influence is obvious - but he is certainly doing his own thing!

Re:MySpace

[Anonymous Coward]

"Awesome" and "MySpace" closely related in the same post. Awesome. Dude.

Re:MySpace

[FrankNputer]

Now, I haven't seen his other stuff: but judging from this video his skills are not what I'd call "awesome".

Synchronized cut & paste editing is music video 101 - I did the same type of stuff in 1991 using Betacam tapes of Gulf War footage against a Jane's Addiction track, just for the practice. The video came out cool, but my editing skills are FAR from awesome, trust me - I've seen awesome video skills, and I don't have 'em.

genius

[yanyan]

While actual mechanical skill with an instrument belongs to one level, composing and arranging belong to a wholly different level. I'd even go as far to venture that both rely on completely different sets of brain matter. Speaking from personal experience, i may be able to shred guitar with the best of them (okay, i might be exaggerating a bit), but i really hit a wall when i try to arrange something, especially if it has many layers of instrumentation, melody, harmony, etc. That guy is a master arranger in his own right.

Norge i vinter

[baomike]

What would you do in the "murk tid".
some drink, at least this guy thought of soemthing creative.

Yeah...

[feepness]

...but does he want a PSP for Christmas?

Another of his videos

[strider44]

He has plenty of good videos - another of his, Hyperactive uses the same technique to a similar effect.

life is just a sequence of .....

[3seas]

repetitions with slight variations. We are all experts at that.

Not slashdot-worthy

[Anonymous Coward]

Give me a break. All he did was collect samples then sequence a simple tune. Thousands of people are doing this to generate thousands of sequenced music which are hardly newsworthy.

The only difference here is that he collected video in addition to the audio samples, rendered the audio track applying crossfading as usual, dumped the sequence into something easy to parse - say SMF - then wrote a script that splices video segments according to which sample is played. This is assuming that there aren't applications that helps sequences video segments, which I believe there are since this idea isn't particularly new. I've seen countless music videos that already do this. How about we post every video that gets a million hits on "youtube"? Is this geek news?

Re:Not slashdot-worthy

[hxnwix]

"All he did was collect samples then sequence a simple tune."

Oh, that's all, eh? It must be pretty easy for someone with no musical training to track. And that is what he's doing - IDM with a video channel. It's not trivial; it's not easy, but it is neat to see someone extend the tracking concept. Of course, most tracks have many samples playing simultaneously which makes associating a video sample with each audio sample problematic. You could alpha blend the many video samples, but it would be hard to find the sort of synergy in the multiple video samples that exists in the audio. Star Guitar by the Chemical Brothers happens to an excellent job of exactly this (via matte rather than blending) and it is also non-trivial. Simply dividing the screen so that overlapping samples can be seperately represented is arguably less ambitious - but for someone without musical training to attempt it is certainly not.

I hope I've put what this guy is doing in better context for you. It's actually startling to me that you would compare this guy's effort to commercial music videos without recognizing the various achievements and innovations of both. But, perhaps Rembrants works wouldn't impress you, since he mostly just smathered paint around in a pattern like that other guy, da Vinci.

Re:Not slashdot-worthy

[HelloKitty]

sounds like you have it figured out (except he used flstudio not scripts).
so where's yours?

>> How about we post every video that gets a million hits on "youtube"? Is this geek news?
you have a better example of geek news?

it's newsworthy because out of the millions of kids, this kid got in the WSJ... and it's entertaining to watch... and geeky because it's not played like a "real" musician (in real time)... and compared to many music apps, flstudio's pretty geeky (though not the geeky-est, i.e. i'd put buzz, renoise, modplugtracker, as more geeky, cubase, sonar, nuendo, abelton, sibelius as much less nerdy... on the scale of apps fl's stong on the programming side (step sequencers! woo), though in a very intuitive nice way (still has pianorolls and all the other really awesome things the others have - except notation of course)...)

sorry, i ramble.

Re:Not slashdot-worthy

[Ricdude]

And the other fun thing about his sequencing: Two "notes" are never played simultaneously. He never hits a hi-hat and kick together. I believe percussionists refer to the style as "linear".

Re:Not slashdot-worthy

[hxnwix]

He does play chords on the piano in sync with his percussion, however.

Sampling is how pop music is made

[tepples]

Yes, I hate N'Sync also and I'm sure that their studio does a lot for them. But it sure the hell isn't micro-sampling like this guy is doing. At some point, it stops being sound editing and it becomes sampling.

What the h*ck do you think MIDI is? Or tracked music? Or Mellotron? Or Fairlight?

Re:Sampling is how pop music is made

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just put an asterisk in "heck"?

OK, Flanders.

Re:Sampling is how pop music is made

[object88]

Yes, I hate N'Sync also and I'm sure that their studio does a lot for them. But it sure the hell isn't micro-sampling like this guy is doing. At some point, it stops being sound editing and it becomes sampling.

What the h*ck do you think MIDI is?

MIDI is a transport mechanism, and is not inherently related to sampling (micro or otherwise) or sound editing.

I'd buy that for a dollar!

[sobiloff]

And the one hit wonder is born...

Re:I'd buy that for a dollar!

[Kurayamino-X]

actually that's his second hit. His first hit "Hyperactive" was even ripped off by comedy central.

look at all the h8rs here

[Anonymous Coward]

jealous much ? everybody going "all he did was blah blah blah"

iam sure you can compile a Kernel or put a new skin on KDE but can you do what he did ? and if its so easy lets see your version iam sure you have loads of music and creative videos you edited right ?

is that crickets i hear or the sound of tumbleweed ?

to some people hardcore ASM code is an art to others its mindnumbing shite, Art takes many forms how many can you master ?

Re:look at all the h8rs here

[zalas]

What I find interesting is not the fact that he took audio/video pieces and spliced together a song. What I find interesting is the way he presents the process of making a song and the fact that what was commonly done for music (snippet sampling) is applied in unison to video. That being said, the technical details aren't really that interesting.

PS: And yes, I do compose/produce music, reverse engineer and splice music videos together in my spare time.

Re:look at all the h8rs here

[element-o.p.]

This is one /.'er who can compile a kernel, put a skin on KDE *and* do...well...something similar to what the dude in the video did, anyway :) I can't edit video, but that's because I've never tried. On the other hand, to see what the creative side of this geek can do, (shameless plug goes here) check out http://www.soundclick.com/elementop/.

So now that I've argued against the parent post :) I have to admit that I do, in fact, agree with the poster. Whether or not the guy can actually play one of his performances live, he is a musician. Like someone else commented above, his instrument of choice is his computer, and he's quite skilled with it. Creating an original composition, whether you play it, someone else plays it, or a computer plays it, is still a work of art, and it's hard. I've written a few songs, and none of them were easy. And, while I do play guitar or bass (yes, even live), I couldn't have created most of my music without a computer either, because with one exception, all of my recordings were done with a sequencer and digital multi-track recorder. IMHO, it's the creativity that goes into a work of art that counts--not whether or not you can play your composition live.

Re:look at all the h8rs here

[Darkael]

The problem is not if we can do what he has done or not (I for one can't), but rather that this is not news, people has done that numerous times since the early electronic era in the 70's.

Re:look at all the h8rs here

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I can compile my kernel, AND play the piano (not at the same time, though. Or, actually, I could play while the compiler does it work, doesn't matter), I can write my own programs, I can play the piano, but I couldn't do what he did. I can't write music.

What he's done is impressive. Not so much new actually, it's basically the same as someone who can't play writing notes on a piece of paper and having someone else play it, but the video part makes it interesting in that we can actually see how it's made.

Re:look at all the h8rs here

[namekuseijin]

"Art takes many forms how many can you master ?"

I for myself am a master of the skillful lasagna-eating art!

Free software for making music

[tepples]

The modern incarnation of the tracker concept would be Renoise. It has VST support and other things that electronic musicians would expect from a studio application, with the efficient interface only a tracker provides. It's also only $60, which is trivial compared to FL Studio, which is something like $300 for the fully functional version. [/ad]

The open-source incarnation of the tracker concept would be Modplug Tracker combined with Audacity. It has VST support and other things that electronic musicians would expect from a studio application, with the efficient interface only a tracker provides. It's also only $0 and under a free software license, which is trivial compared to Renoise, which is something like $60 for the fully functional version. [/ad]

Re:Free software for making music

[mushadv]

Well, yeah, but...Audacity. That extra application kind of makes it cumbersome to use in combination with a sequencer, especially since you're really just working with samples rather than with the VST itself.

Re:Free software for making music

[scrm]

To clarify this: Renoise is a free download - you only need to upgrade for rendering to wav and ASIO support. So you can tinker all you like, for free.

FWIW Renoise has a very dedicated group of developers and a really vibrant community around it, as well as very solid documentation. I really recommend it. (I'm a paying user, not part of the Renoise team.)

Aphex Twin is Music

[Dster76]

So while he may 'have a sense' of beat, tempo and melody, sit yourself down at fruity loops and mess around. You'll be pleasantly surprised that after a few hours, you have something that sound cool to you. After a few days, something that might sound cool to others.

A few months and who knows?

The man is skilled. Skilled at sampling and editing. He's not, however, a skilled musician.

I'm sorry, you're mistaken.

The only things your argument establishes is that he is not a talented drummer or pianist. A musician is someone who makes music, and for the purposes of defining the term, I couldn't give a shit how it's made.

The Richard D. James Album by Aphex Twin contains, in my opinion, some of the most beautiful "music" made in the last decade using techniques very similar, in principle, to the ones this guy is using. I'm thrilled to see that new tools are allowing different people to become musicians in brand new ways.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[CRCulver]

Aphex Twin, as has often been pointed out by music historians, is just repeating what Karlheinz Stockhausen did fifty years ago now in works like Kontakte , except Richard James dumbs it down considerably. Where's the twelve-tone row in a given Aphex Twin track? Where are the aperiodic rhythms?

In showing the legitimacy of creating music from sampling, it's better to use the innovators like Stockhausen or Berio as examples, or those who continue this tradition but at the highest levels of rigour, such as those connected with IRCAM.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[mushadv]

Mod parent up. Aphex Twin is the grand master of IDM; any big innovation in electronic music after 1992 is probably, at least in some part, his doing.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Tablizer]

One can appreciate an artist's performance for different reasons. Some like the music; it makes them feel good. However, others may like skillful playing; the coordination and movement of the instrument player(s).

There are different paths and different aspects to enjoying music. This person has an interesting talent, but if it does not float your boat, please don't criticize others for enjoying it.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Afecks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqjhcdl8Kt8

Please show me where this brilliant insanity has ever been done before.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Anonymous Coward]

One can appreciate an artist's performance for different reasons. Some like the music; it makes them feel good. However, others may like skillful playing; the coordination and movement of the instrument player(s).

I have yet to read a book review where someone say they enjoy a book because of the writer's skillful coordination of paper and pen.

In the case of countless female performers from ancient times through Samantha Fox, Britney Spears and all the boy bands ever created, the audience simply appreciates the visual qualities of the artists even if they can't play or sing worth a damn. Music is after all so much more than...music.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Bo'Bob'O]

I suppose this is going to get lost into comments, which is a shame, I think, because I think it's important.

This is problem we've had for the last, oh, I'd say, 50 years. We have artiest in the academic since, and artiest in the colloquial since. The words have become bogged down in I guess what can only be called a cultural clash, one side takes it as elitist, the other side leaving little room for other sorts of artistic exploration. Thing is, being a performer, a painter, or whatever and not being called an artiest isn't an insult, so, I think we should start to again use the word craftsmen, and people should run with it, its not a evaluation of talent or social status, its just about what you DO.

It very closely compares to say, an engener and a research physicist. One of them applies what they know, they know it well, they do it well, and they know how to make it WORK. The other is out, testing new things, bringing new ideas to the table even if those ideas may be some time off from practicality. Are either of them bad? Is one smarter or better then the other? Not at all, they just apply how and what they know differently, building different skillets to do what they do the best, and in the end, the research physicist may really not be the best at applying his work, nor does the engener necessarily have the knowledge to churn deep deep into the math to find new ideas and connections. Sometimes there is some arrogance that can build up on both sides, but in the end, the difference is pretty clear in the big picture.

It's the same way in art, there is the artiest, and the craftsmen. The composer might be a decent musician, but probably not as good as the first chair violinist. The first chair violin, might be a pretty good composer were they to try, but likely not quite having the skill and practice for something really new and original. There are countless painters who are incredibly talented craftsmen (check out a book on hyperrealism sometime, its astonishing), but they aren't really doing anything new, they are refining their craft. I suppose most people here will disagree with me, but I think there is some really interesting stuff going on even in the academic art world if you look for it, stuff that can really make you think. It's always nice to see good, strong craftsmanship, it can really make something fantastic, but that's not all that is going on.

So now we get to this guy, he's obviously an artiest of a bit of talent, stepping back and using what he has to make something really interesting, but he's no craftsmen. It's not an insult, he doesn't even pretend to be, in fact, that's part of his art. There is nothing wrong with that, it is what it is. Certainly, we shouldn't close the doors for people that are crossing from one to the other, from the craft to the art and vice versa, there is considerable overlap, and tremendous talent on both sides. It's silly though, to redefine or force yourself into the other side just because you or someone else thinks one or the other is better.

So, maybe you think artists are elitist and snooty, or maybe you think that these craftsmen who never push the envelope are boring and uninspired; I think we should still take our titles and be proud of them. Let's just get on with it, and the rest of us can enjoy them both.

Well, I'm tired, and it's a bit late for me to proofread this, so sorry, I just hope that people, well, lighten up a little and maybe open their mind a bit to the great things that many people are doing out there.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[wish bot]

I'd be surprised if he didn't cite an earlier group like Severed Heads ( http://sevcom.com/shop-classic.html ) as inspiration. Enjoy the link.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[bbrand]

Thank god someone posted this... I immediately thought of it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha_JhhkHReE

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Spudds]

A musician is someone who makes music

No.
A Musician is someone who plays music.
A Composer is someone who makes music.

Re:Aphex Twin is Music

[Dster76]

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

"musician (my-zsh'n) n. One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. "

Semantics aside, there's actually an interesting issue here. Is a computer running some sort of sequencing software an instrument?

If you answer no, be prepared to defend a difficult position according to which some technological developments, as opposed to others, infringe on the "essential" nature of an instrument.

If you answer yes, then he's a musician who performs music, full stop -- just not using drums or piano.

congratulations!

[night_flyer]

he just reinvented the mod/s3m/xm file... just with video instead of samples

how little the slashdot crowd knows about music!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, some of you guys seem to be kinda ignorant of the role computers & technology play, and have played for quite some time, in music!

Remember the .mod file?

[purduephotog]

So basically You-Tube has provide an old MOD tracker as a new hit? Didn't this go out of style in about 1996? Or have I forgotten the old 1mb MOD files that had incredible sound clarity compared to MIDI yet were shunned for their repeating bass line... ?

Lasse Gjertsen is a genius

[cliveholloway]

It's obvious from some of the comments that posters haven't seen his work. He's one of the most creative artists I've seen on YouTube. From the pointless and bizarre Den Lille Valpen, to the simple humor of US, to the amazing production values on Jeg går en Tur. And the guy is only 22.

Personally, I can't wait to see what he comes up with next.

cLive ;-)

ps - oh, and the "Your mother is a" Slutt joke is quite funny too...

Re:Lasse Gjertsen is a genius

[maggern]

Den Lille Valpen = The little puppy
Jeg går en tur = I'm going for a small trip [going for a walk]

Re:Lasse Gjertsen is a genius

[namekuseijin]

Oh, so he's a "youtube artist"! So that's why no one was taking the time to comment on the music itself of such unskilled musician. why am i not surprised?...

not that new

[ElephanTS]

Speaking as someone that has produced records (a few little dance hits in the UK) what he's doing is what's going on in just about every studio in the world. Namely, using samples to make a beat. It's nothing special, what's interesting is tying that with the video. Having said that, software to do that has been available for nearly 10 years (called Steinberg X-Pose) and it's quite good fun to use - just set video and sound samples to keys on a keyboard and bash away.

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/multimedia/xpose-it/

Steinberg did once think it was going to be the 'next step' in AV production - maybe they were just early? If he'd used that software he probably could have done it in a tenth of the time.

Re:not that new

[pimpimpim]

If you're top gear, you can even do it with cars. Music part starts after a few minutes.

Re:not that new

[pimpimpim]

And the finale can be found here

Tools for Fubmle Thumbs

[Tablizer]

I have a similar problem: I can't play real-speed very well, but in 1994 I built a special MIDI sequencer that makes it easier for me to hand-edit and "see" music patterns:

http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/foxmusic.htm

(Unfortunately I don't currently have any samples ready. I put my equipment away when my kids were became toddlers because they couldn't keep their fingers off of it.)

100% un-original..."EBN already did it"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yawn...that is basically what Emergency Broadcast Network (EBN) built their entire body of work, starting in the early 1990s - sampled video recontextualized into music. The linked video is merely a recent example. And EBN did it with samples from common broadcast TV, not with specially constructed video.

Re:100% un-original..."EBN already did it"

[dthree]

You neglected to mention that EBN did this (originally) with videotape machines. Quite a bit more difficult than using Avid or FCP.

F00bar2K

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't specify an OS, but for Windows Foobar 2000 plays MODs and SIDs and a lot more.

He certainly is a musician.

[Kadin2048]

He's not a pianist or a drummer, that's for sure, but he's a hell of a musician. In that he makes music. That doesn't imply any skill at any particular instrument, although in this case, I think it's quite arguable that the computer is his instrument.

Although new instruments have had a history of being rejected by more conventional instrument players whenever they're introduced, I would have hoped that we'd moved beyond that now. (Did you know what harpsicord players thought of the piano when it was first introduced? It wasn't flattering, I'll bet.) Keyboards, synthesizers, samplers, drum machines, and other electronic devices are all valid tools for a musician to use. For that matter, so are 55-gallon drums and PVC pipe, at the other end of the spectrum.

This guy made music; therefore he is a musician. The fact that you think that 'anybody' could do this is irrelevant; everybody isn't doing this, or it wouldn't be notable and other people wouldn't be listening to it. Acting haughty because he doesn't have conventional instrumental skills is ridiculous.

Re:He certainly is a musician.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree completely... Many years ago, I played the violin, and was told that because I could "play by ear" I was a very good student. If today I could play "the spoons", slap my hands against my thighs, or make other sounds even better than I played the violin, would I be any less a musician? This guy most certainly is a very, very talented musician.

Re:He certainly is a musician.

[Anonymous Coward]

Alright, alright, he's a musician as in "one who creates music". Fine. I like ambient, techno, and dub, which is certainly "music" even though in most cases, nobody actually plays an instrument for the recording. But you have to admit that these are not "musicians" in the sense that most people normally think of when they hear the term "musician", that is, yes, one who plays (and studies) an instrument. I reckon if you stood on the corner and asked random pedestrians to "listen to this musician for a second, he's really great", the first question you'd normally get is "what does he play"? "Well, he doesn't actually play anything, but don't think that he's not a musician, because he makes wonderful music with his computer." Technically and semantically correct, yes, but still a bit awkward.

My point is not to argue on technicalities (yes, I agree he's a musician too) but to illustrate that this entire debate is, in fact, focused on a technicality which isn't normally recognized (at least to the point that you recognize it) in normal everyday life. So let's just drop it and get back to listening to good music, regardless of whether it was created by playing instruments or by programming a computer.

Re:He certainly is a musician.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also I should point out that the skill of programming a computer to make music is fundamentally different than the skill of playing an instrument. I am an accomplished drummer and percussionist myself and can say that although programming music and playing music are similar in many respects, they are also dissimilar in many respects. The most obvious difference is that playing an instrument requires a certain physical coordination, muscle memory, and listening ability which can only be achieved through years of repetitive practice. On the other hand, programming music requires more of an understanding of composition and the ability to see the music from an "overhead" perspective rather than a "first-person" perspective.

Re:He certainly is a musician.

[Maxo-Texas]

He's actually a bit of a polymath.

The music video is one of many clever and insightful pieces he has made.

He had a nice idea but music is like 5% of his output.

Very creative guy.

Reminds me of Shatner Acting Simulator

[Tablizer]

One can use snippets to learn both music, and acting:

http://simshatner.fanspace.com/

only $100, FL's cheap! (and really really good)

[HelloKitty]

fruity is still pretty cheap for the base version.
$100 USD cheap!

then you can add on as you need to (or add on your own external non-fruity VSTs)

fruity's good stuff. very scalable.
you can bang out very simple things with minimal mouse clicks.
or
arrange very complex things.
the app scales very very well.
which i find to match my own work style and creativity well...
(because of this scalability, FL doesn't get in the way of creativity, this is _killer_)

Vestibules Laurence Olivier skit is like this

[Anonymous Coward]

The Vestibules made a Diet Coke ad from words and someitmes just syllables of Laurence Olivier.
"I love di et ko ka ko la" It's a classic.

it has its place

[DragonTHC]

as someone who has been playing instruments for over 20 years, and been into MIDI and electronic music for over 12 years, this is not new.

it's incredibly creative. and well put together.

though it gives the impression that the kid has no musical knowledge or talent. this is not true. he has done digital music before.

that being said, creative does not make it good. A wise man once told me, there are only two types of music: good and bad.

I'd say this is somewhere in the middle.

Though this is pretty much representative of the fruity loops generation.

What you have is a bunch of novices copy and pasting sounds together in a repetetive mimicry of good music.

The fathers of digital music, herbie hancock and joe zawinul were musicians who experimented with technology.

The technology enhanced their music.

Re:it has its place

[Anonymous Coward]

A wise man once told me, there are only two types of music: good and bad.

I'd say this is somewhere in the middle.

Huh?

Re:it has its place

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what they say:
Infinite monkeys....

Project idea: MIDI video samples

[FleaPlus]

When I was watching the linked video I had a random idea... what if people put together a (Creative Commons?) library of short video clips like that for some of the instruments used in MIDI files? For example, you could have short video samples of people playing notes for the piano, trumpet, vocals, etc. Then, given a MIDI file you could automatically generate a video like the one Mr. Gjertsen did, perhaps having a separate split-screen for each MIDI channel.

If nothing else, it'd be a cool thing to have on display at parties.

Re:Project idea: MIDI video samples

[gEvil (beta)]

If nothing else, it'd be a cool thing to have on display at parties.

I'm not so sure I'd wanna be at a party where the music is provided via MIDI files...

Five letters

[Anonymous Coward]

Yello

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yello

Cool... but not original...

[httpamphibio.us]

I've seen a dozen different videos of this nature on YouTube and even before the site's existence. There have been many of kids beat boxing, among other things.

Re:Cool... but not original...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this guy vas the first to do the beatboxing as well, he made this before the Amateur video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9698TqtY4A

Why didn't I think of this?

[Saxophonist]

I just got home from practicing for six and a half hours for a doctoral degree recital I am performing tomorrow. I could have just put together a video instead. I'm sure I would get an A from the committee if I did!

(I'd like to send a special shout out to Karlheinz Stockhausen for writing pieces that have to be performed from memory but are next to impossible to memorize, such as In Freundschaft. Thanks so much!)

Oh, and if any of you folks are in Minneapolis tomorrow (Wednesday, December 13), be at Ultan Hall on the University of Minnesota campus (in the Ferguson Hall building) at 3:45 p.m. to witness the carnage. Thanks!

Re:Why didn't I think of this?

[pklinken]

You don't sound like you enjoy music much..

Pompous much?

[AlgoRhythm]

I disagree with just about everyone in this thread re: definition of musician vs. composer vs. editor etc., but I'm replying to you because I feel that this point of view is particularly damaging to good, original, modern music, and it's acceptance by a wider audience.

No one, other than academics who over intellectualize most music, really cares whether there is a 12-tone row in a piece of music. Why would you expect one to show up in a song by Aphex Twin? Would it make it a better piece of music? Aperiodic rhythms? Who cares?

Music is judged by the vast majority of people in subjective, opinionated terms. Arguing that someone should justify the use of sampling in music by citing an unknown, and in most people's opinion unlistenable (though innovative), composer is ridiculous. I appreciate those on the vanguard like Stockhausen for pushing boundaries and bringing new ideas to the table, but that doesn't necessarily make what they do 'good' music in a conventional (i.e. layman's) sense.

You sound like a pompous asshole. I guess what bothers me most is the tone of superiority that is expressed through statements like yours and by most people who hold similar opinions, and the insinuation that if someone disagrees they are stupid and wrong. It does nothing to encourage communication and exchange of ideas, and everything to turn people off of the fringe completely.

Re:Pompous much?

[CRCulver]

No one, other than academics who over intellectualize most music, really cares whether there is a 12-tone row in a piece of music.

I'm not an academic (at least, not in the field of music, I'm a linguist), and I didn't even have much knowledge of music theory until I had been listening to certain music for a while. However, it became apparent that the music I found most exciting and endlessly deep, instead of just something transparent and boring after one has listened just a single time, was twelve-tone (or based on Norgard's infinity series).

Aperiodic rhythms? Who cares?

The golden section, for example, is an aperiodic rhythm, and it is naturally perceived by human beings to be aesthetically satisfying. The Lucas and Evangelist series can be played against the golden section in an exciting fashion that is readibly audible by any layman.

Arguing that someone should justify the use of sampling in music by citing an unknown, and in most people's opinion unlistenable (though innovative), composer is ridiculous.

Stockhausen's rise in popularity in the late 1960s and early 1970s was due mainly to young people, the same sort who right now are listening to Aphex Twin. His concerts regularly sold out, and if you read reviews of them in the papers of the day, you'll see that they were usually attended by long-haired people in jeans, not uptight academics. If anything, that Stockhausen is now a little forgotten is due to his own reclusiveness and retreat from the public eye that started when he began work on Licht.

Re:Pompous much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stockhausen is not unknown!! I get 28 hits on a well known P2P network.
I am going to check it out but I fear its just your avarage pop or indie crap.

Re:Pompous much?

[emilng]

I am an amateur when it comes to musicians and music theory, but if this discussion were applied to visual art, you seem like the kind of person who would walk into an art gallery and look at the little plaque next to the piece and disregard the actual artwork because you see the name of the artist and recall that from some art review that their work was mostly derivative of a genre of art originated by someone who is mostly unknown in modern main stream culture. You would then proceed to go home and research this artist and convince yourself that because this artist was the first they are better than the artist whose work you completely overlooked in the gallery. I'm not saying that's what you do, but that's certainly how you represent yourself.

Re:Pompous much?

[packeteer]

The best innovators are not the ones who come up with a new idea. The best innovators make a new idea work for many people.

Re:Pompous much?

[namekuseijin]

"it became apparent that the music I found most exciting and endlessly deep, instead of just something transparent and boring after one has listened just a single time, was twelve-tone (or based on Norgard's infinity series)."

Randomness, impredictability or cold-precision methodically written series sure may sound as deep as any natural random phenomena, which really don't aim at anything other than filling the silence with sounds. Still, i believe most music lovers really care much more for music with a history of their own to tell, as far as such an abstract art as music permits...

Re:Pompous much?

[namekuseijin]

"their work was mostly derivative of a genre of art originated by someone who is mostly unknown in modern main stream culture. You would then proceed to go home and research this artist and convince yourself that because this artist was the first they are better than the artist whose work you completely overlooked in the gallery."

Mozart and Beethoven certainly felt that way about Bach...

Re:Pompous much?

[CRCulver]

Still, i believe most music lovers really care much more for music with a history of their own to tell, as far as such an abstract art as music permits...

The "meaning" behind any piece of music is arbitrary. I hear people say that they hear the story of the triumph of the human spirit in a certain Beethoven piece. I don't, I just hear a certain well-worn 19th-century structure of sounds without any story behind it. Now, when I hear a work like Boulez's Repons , I hear a rainbow of sound in perpetual expansion, while others say they just hear some sonic noodling.

Just by looking at the indigenous musical traditions of the world, one can see that the notion that music can communicate any objective emotion is preposterous. The diaphonic singing of the Shop people in Bulgaria (yes, a land where minor seconds are considered pleasing to the ear) may sound shrill and angry to many Western listeners. But to the Shop, the music accompanies songs whose lyrics are about love, family life, and so forth.

So, the meaning of a given piece is totally arbitrary, and thus is unsuitable for determining its worth. The early modernist view (especially with Xenakis, perhaps so as well with the serialists) was that the complexity or informational content of a piece is the deciding factor. But since IRCAM led the way in the 1980s with some software capable of automatically generating some hair-raisingly complex music (Magnus Lindberg's piece Engine is an example), even that doesn't work as a standard so much anymore.

So, in the end, one finds that the only objective criterion to determine a piece's worth is its originality: how much can one find here that hasn't been done before? And under that criterion, sorry, much of Aphex Twin loses out to Stockhausen. I will give Richard James credit for one thing (assuming no one else did it before), however, and that is encoding graphical images into the sound that can be viewed with the right software.

Re:Pompous much?

[namekuseijin]

"The 'meaning' behind any piece of music is arbitrary. I hear people say that they hear the story of the triumph of the human spirit in a certain Beethoven piece. I don't, I just hear a certain well-worn 19th-century structure of sounds without any story behind it."

Yes, yes. I did not say it carries any particular meaning: it's "meaning" is completely subjective and personal for each listener. Still, tonal music and its filigrans of complex tension/distension relationships allow for people to clearly distinguish between heavily dramatic sections and "allegro" ones. You can't hear the Apassionata Sonata and say it's just a buch of notes thrown together or use it to celebrate happy moments: it's clearly out of focus.

"The diaphonic singing of the Shop people in Bulgaria (yes, a land where minor seconds are considered pleasing to the ear) may sound shrill and angry to many Western listeners. But to the Shop, the music accompanies songs whose lyrics are about love, family life, and so forth. So, the meaning of a given piece is totally arbitrary,"

It's not that arbitrary, then: it depends on cultural context! I'm not Bulgarian, i'm a westerner and am used to the long tonal music tradition.

"the complexity or informational content of a piece is the deciding factor."

One thing's for sure: in no cultural musical traditions in the world, composers and musicians compose like they were drawing mathematical functions.

Re:Pompous much?

[CRCulver]

One thing's for sure: in no cultural musical traditions in the world, composers and musicians compose like they were drawing mathematical functions.

Totally false. The Greek musical tradition owes so much to Pythagoras and his school, for whom music was an expression of sacred numerology. While to a certain extent Pythagoras was describing an earlier musical tradition, there are areas where he clearly pushed forth new guidelines on musical progression purely for mathematical reasons. See M.L. West's Ancient Greek Music . Furthermore, in Toru Takemitsu's works which he commenced after reconciling himself to his native country's musical tradition, the use of magic squares becomes an important factor.

Re:Pompous much?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what I'm writing, being by an AC, most probably won't see the light of day, but I want to comment on parts of what you (and maybe a couple other people) just said.

I want to begin by saying that I am a classically trained musician, and that I have no problem with any genre of music, as long as it's "good" music, nor how it's composed, nor how it is performed.

You point out that music is judged subjectively by the majority of the population, and while this is true, it seems to me that you are tacitly saying that that is a proper thing. People judge everything, but that doesn't make their judgement informed or correct. Music is a language use to express ideas, though in a different manner than the "spoken" languages we use. It might be closer to the "logical language" of mathematics, but it is still far removed from that as well. If the majority of our population decided that 15 y.o. IRC incomprehensible gibberish was, in their subjective opinion, the most effective means of communicating their ideas, what would you think of their opinion? Does their opinion make this correct, or would you begin to question the education of the majority?

This is not to dissuade anyone from liking whatever music they want to, but people can also prefer poorly written tripe for novels. This does not make make them authorities on writing, but it does make them an authority on what they like (and, in their defense, I know I do enjoy the occasional poorly written, tripe novel. And song).

My best test for whether music is "good" is simple, but probably not very helpful. See if it survives for 200 years. 500 years. More. Is the music in touch with those rules that humanity has carved out for music? Does it remain interesting the way an excellent novel can get better the more times you reread it? When it's out of place in terms of it's social value, does it still get lauded for it's actual music? This is one reason I enjoy "20th century music" (and now, 21st century...), listening to it I get to stretch my mind and attempt to hear where music might be going, without knowing for sure. Also, "good" music doesn't need to be from the "Baroque-Romantic-Classical-etc" line. There are many, many folk songs that have survived for a long, long time, and I believe (though this is all my opinion) that this is because there is something inherent in them that is "good" music.

So ask yourself, how likely will your favorite artists survive then next few centuries. I have my own picks of who I think might cut it, such as the Beatles. I could be very wrong. I hope science can put my brain in a jar somewhere, with some robo-ears, so I can find out.

Last, a comment on the music in the video itself. I've heard it (and seen the vid), and it's fun. The composer is, in fact, just that. He doesn't need to justify to me that his music is music. My only problem is the assumption some people here made about his abilities in rhythm or tempo. We can't know that he has a good sense of these, he's using Fruity Loops. Not that he shouldn't. He could prove his manliness to all by aligning everything by placing it in Protools and then shifting it around after listening to it again and again, but big apes use tools for a reason. And his innovative rhythms probably indicate a good sense of time. But don't assume.

Thanks for you time!
m!

Re:Pompous much?

[namekuseijin]

"Totally false."

Yes, totally false because a bunch of scholars like Pythagoras or Stockhausen doing mathematical experimentations with sound form the exception that is the norm.

Get serious: music composition revolves around playing with instruments, getting your hands dirty and sometimes, getting lucky and coming up with something great. It's not about writing random notes, fixed series or whatnot. See what Einstein has to say about ingenuity.

Re:Pompous much?

[trs9000]

Please mod the parent up; very well said.

Also, the comment of a brain and robo-ears is particularly amusing to me.

Re:Pompous much?

[namekuseijin]

i thought i had replied to you. see:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=211456&cid=172 25900

the comment just below.

this is not stop-motion video

[Anonymous Coward]

and anyone who thinks it is doesn't deserve an opinion

Re:this is not stop-motion video

[havenskate]

I couldn't agree more...

How did Aaron Rutkoff get a job writing for the Wall Street Journal??? How did this get past the editor? It's in the TITLE of the article. Ya know, I really think it's time I start looking for a job writing articles about how I waste my time and make money while I do it. :)

Some instruments are not so simple to sample

[Dexenian]

For exmaple, the trumpet and most other brass instruments, just basic sample and editing will not do, as matter of fact thoes music would sound like midi files, that's what makes practice and musicians valuable... BTW vocal is imposible to sample, because its has infinite possibilities.

Re:Some instruments are not so simple to sample

[hauntingthunder]

Um

have you not seen any of the soft synths avaible now ok you have to use a seriously grunty computer per section to get the polyphony needed. One review I saw sugested a basic setup would be one pc each for Strings Brass woodwind and percussion respectivly.

And there are now soft synths for vocals CANTOR and Vocaloid MIRIAM for example.

So what?

[frank_adrian314159]

There are a lot of unrefined musicians with a global audience. Take Brittney Spears for example... oh hell, take her forever.

Re:"Unskilled"? C'mon...

[davidsyes]

He was being cymbolic. Don't have a tympani tantrum, hehehehe

switch about...

[Dun Malg]

How many of you clowns pooh-poohing this guy's composition because it's "just editing" would bee messing your drawers in awe if the music in question was (say) the original 1963 theme to Doctor Who? You know, the one Delia Derbyshire composed and "recorded" by physically cutting and splicing (in some cases) individual notes recorded on magnetic tape?

Re:switch about...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, I think you made their point for them. Splicing tape together to make music has been done so many times, it's not unique or impressive in itself. That means this is basically just an ad for a relatively unknown song and video some people like. If we're playing that game, I'll recommend "Kill All Hippies" by Primal Scream at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rye2QU8r4nw.

Btw, I'm don't particularly care for the song in the OP. It's not particularly catchy or danceable, nor does it stir any particular emotions (except that I'd rather be listening to various other bands doing somewhat similar styles of music), or challenge me in any way. I suspect that without the video and surrounding hype most people hearing the song would be extremely unimpressed.

Anyone seen this, audio visual dj program --

[fliptout]

A while ago I found a guy's website (Russian I think) with his signal processing software that takes in a singing voice from a microphone and creates a music video on the fly. What he does first is feed in some audiovisual sources, analyze them, and then store them into a database. When somebody sings into a microphone, his program can composite the samples together to recreate the singers voice, and the original video is displayed on a screen at the same time. I have been trying for ages to find this guy's page again, but no luck. Anybody else seen it?

Re:This is news?

[Eideewt]

He's only as talentless as you are insightful.

Heh

[Anonymous Coward]

This won't be the first time an amateur-level musician has been popular, ever heard of GG Allin?

Granted this time without drugs and groupies...

Scrambled Hackz

[ivan kk]

The track reminds me of a video released not too long ago, about a program called scrambled hackz.
http://www.popmodernism.org/scrambledhackz/

Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRlhKaxcKpA

Too bad it's still unreleased software though.

Synclavier

[Mal-2]

He should get himself a Synclavier and save himself a lot of time with much the same results. Maybe he has one and used it, we don't actually know.

As for the "musician" question, I hold that "analog" instruments are just one skill set you can use to make music, and that technology opens up many new ones. These all intersect at the place called "music" but can be vastly different in execution. In the end, it's all about getting what you heard in your head into everyone else's heads. How you do it ultimately does not matter. If a device could directly "rip" sounds from your imagination, and you used this to create entirely new music, you would still be a musician. I would argue this would be the best possible musical instrument, capable of reproducing every imaginable sound with minimal effort.

Mal-2

Same concept, done before...

[rantingkitten]

Check it out here -- the amazing sampled human beatbox. I like this guy's theatrics a lot more anyway.

Re:Same concept, done before...

[nsom]

isn't that the same guy?

Re:Same concept, done before...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

good but not the first

[jmcswiney]

michel gondry, the crazy mind behind being john malkovich and eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, does the same thing, albeit with only a drum kit, sans piano. lasse does a good job, but it isn't quite the original that everyone seems to make it out to be.

Re:good but not the first

[emilng]

It's always more impressive when it comes from an amateur.
It's kind of like praising people for trying to speak a few phrases of a foreign language, but once they can speak it fluently it's not that big of a deal anymore.

Could someone please make this like wavetable...

[mrmeval]

...music? It would be so awesome to be able to take a stock set of 'video instruments' and play them with a midi file.

I think Animusic does something similar.

Not-so-redundant

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's one where he does some beatbox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9698TqtY4A

No, actually, it's not.

[pogopark]

What's the point of arguing with what he said when you plainly don't know what you're talking about? He's right, sampling short individual sounds, like this guy has done, is not how pop music is made. Furthermore, MIDI is simply a control mode for musical instruments and can trigger either samples or, more commonly in pop music, synthesis. Tracked music is the same way. The mellotron is super rare and I dare you to name one non-Beatles record that features it. It is certainly not a common tool in the creation of the tens of thousands of pop songs written, produced, and recorded each year. Pop music is most commonly made with recorded tracks; the sole exception -- from a certain point of view -- would be, as you mentioned, synthesis, and even then a lot of pop musicians (and, i would wager, most non-hiphop pop composers) are trained in the piano and would actually be performing live and in recordings even if the sounds they're triggering are synthesized or sample-based. A good example of what this guy did is Danger Mouse's infamous Grey Album. All of the beats on that album are composed via the digital arrangement of White Album samples, micro and macro. Like this video, it is a feat of composition and editing, not of performance. That of course takes nothing away from it; it's great and it truly bangs. But there's no reason not to differentiate it from other forms of pop composition and recording. Differentiate, not dis. In fact, it seems like you're using this argument to try and demean pop music -- it's just samples! -- by which you are also implying that sample-based composition and recording is inferior to other forms of recording and composition. If not, you're trying to lift sample-based music like this up to the level of pop music. Either way, the hierarchy only exists in your mind. Both are valid forms of composition.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The mellotron is super rare and I dare you to name one non-Beatles record that features it."

Houses of the Holy, by Led Zeppelin. The Rain Song has a mellotron on the recording. No Quarter has a mellotron at least when JPJ played live (not sure if it's a mellotron in the recording or not).

I do agree with your more salient points, though.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[Loco Moped]

. If not, you're trying to lift sample-based music like this up to the level of pop music.

There's your problem.
You're under the impression that pop music is somehow 'above' something.
While it's true the so-called 'musicians' are usually high,
the results are lower than primordial slime.

I've produced more musical results with a burrito grande and 30 minutes notice.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[pogopark]

Way to read what I wrote. I was just listing things the previous poster could have been motivated by. Is he legitimizing the youtube guy or demonizing pop music by equating the two? Regardless, your bullshit opinion made me vomit a little in my mouth. Thanks for the snack.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[ShieldW0lf]

Modern music is shit. But aside from that...

Music is meant to be participated in. Good music is a half dozen cool folks with their instruments sitting down and hammering out something that's never been heard before, and you're one of them, and you're composing as you go, and interacting with everyone around you while you do it.

The idea that listening to professional music is somehow superior to participating in music, that's a big con, and if you never spent a little of your life learning to play something or other together with other people in a jam, you got seriously ripped off.

Beyond that, recorded music is nothing compared to being in the presence of musicians who are masters of their craft and having fun with each other and the dancing crowd.

Modern music is isolating. Even the dancing is isolating.

Just reject the whole big pile of steaming shit and start making music with friends instead, that's what I have to say on the subject.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[pogopark]

Who the eff are you talking to? I played the tuba for 7 years, and I play the guitar and a little keyboard, and yeah I rap and make beats too. This is all music. In fact, I find composing with samples, and rap performance, to be far more fulfilling than any of the other musical endeavors I've ever undertaken. Modern music isn't shit. You just don't know how to listen to it. That's the fucking truth about ANY kind of music, i don't care what it is. ...OK, some is shit. But not all of any genre. Every type of music, hell every artist has its shit work. And every inspired musical movement has its hangers-on. But don't give me this fuddy-duddy nerd cynic shit. If you can't get down to a banger then you're the one not living, son. And if doing so makes you feel isolated, get your head out of your ass, navigate your smile back onto your morose, sociophobic, Smashing Pumpkins-listening, old-school-Depeche Mode t-shirt-wearing, robot-talking domepiece, and spend a few minutes both forgetting and dwelling upon the fact that we are all fucked and that all that matters is what's driving you NOW, in the moment. .that said, you're right, the best music happens in the moment. But are you going to go burn your CDs and learn a new instrument? No. So.... go find a hiphop show or a poetry slam and try to figure what it is that everyone except you has figured out about this modern shit.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[cloak42]

The mellotron is present in lots and LOTS of progressive rock music. Groups like Spock's Beard and Porcupine Tree use the mellotron all over the place. Hell, in Porcupine Tree's latest album, Deadwing, there's even a track called "Mellotron Scratch."

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[tepples]

Furthermore, MIDI is simply a control mode for musical instruments and can trigger either samples or, more commonly in pop music, synthesis.

Are you sure there's so much pure synthesis in most of these instruments? I thought the Roland D-50 introduced sampled attacks to get away from the limitations of pure synthesis. The loop of "Orinoco Flow" by Enya is pretty much entirely the pizzicato sample from a D-50.

In fact, it seems like you're using this argument to try and demean pop music -- it's just samples!

Quite the contrary. I liked TFA, and I understand that music based on microsamples can have as much composition as any other music.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[Muad'Dave]

I'm showing my age, but the "Sammy Hall Singers" whom I saw around 1978 in the Patrick Henry High School auditorium, Ashland, Virginia, featured a mellotron.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[aliensporebomb]

Albums with Mellotron besides the Beatles?

Well, besides my own "Passage from the Vault of Hours" which has both mellotron flute
as well as mellotron strings in spot, here are albums that have a number of Mellotron
bits and are classic recordings:

-King Crimson: In the Court of the Crimson King, Red, Starless and Bible Black,
  Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Thrak, etcetera.

-Synergy: Electronic realizations for rock orchestra - the first two tracks
  utilize quite a bit of Mellotron, especially the cover of "Slaughter on Tenth
  Avenue".

-Tangerine Dream - virtually everything from Phaedra and Rubycon all the way past
  Stratosfear and Encore (the live disc) and use slows around the time of Cyclone
  around 1978 although sporadic use continues into 1979's "Force Majeure".

-Spring - the entire record is a virual mellotron demonstration record. Kind of
  unknown but has Dire Straits Pick Withers on drums.

The AOR contigent tracks:
-Lynyrd Skynyrd: Tuesdays Gone - 'Tron strings throughout.
-Bob Seger: Turn the Page - the live version has 'tron strings.
-Rush: Tears - 'tron strings.
-Aerosmith: Dream on - strings again.

The Swedish Contigent:
-Anglagard: Epilog, Hybris - also big 'tron users. Both are excellent.
-Landberk: One Man Tells Another (includes the first recorded instance of mellotron feedback!)
-Anekdoten: Their entire recorded catalog is riddled with tron.

I could go on and on with this but (1) Mellotrons aren't very rare.
(2) their use in modern alternative rock is increasing due to certain
people like Roger Manning (Jellyfish, Moog Cookbook, etc.) using them
among others and (3) you can buy a plug-in from Gmedia to use with your
sequencer which samples the original mellotron tapes and have a virtual
mellotron on your PC or Mac.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[pogopark]

There are some forms of synthesis that "sample" portions of the shape of actual wav recordings, yes -- like, sample the attack, loop the next part for a sustain, etc. But technically this is not the same as "sampling", which to me connotes the use of verbatim sound clips (though potentially with manipulation) in an arranged fashion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_concr%C3%A8te . It is kind of an interesting technique however. I'd compare it to building skins out of instrument samples for ADSR envelopes to wear. This is aside from samplers which are in the actual, sound-clip-manipulation-and-playback mold, and may be controlled by a keyboard. These use differnt techniques to map an instrument to the keys, and usually these patches (sounds on the keyboard) are designed by performers. I mostly wanted to emphasize though that when you get to this level of, well, changing the sound of a piano, you still have to know how to play the piano to compose or (even more so) to perform. It's not copy and paste. There's so many kinds of synthesizers though, and many kinds of sampling that don't need to involve a keyboard to be illy. Many of these also involve MIDI as a control mode. But with pop music I would place 'synthesis' at a much higher level than any of these forms of sampling, and right below live performance, as having the biggest role in pop recordings.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[RmB303]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellotron#The_Mellotr on_in_popular_music
That was hard to find.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[ShieldW0lf]

But are you going to go burn your CDs and learn a new instrument? No. So.... go find a hiphop show or a poetry slam and try to figure what it is that everyone except you has figured out about this modern shit.

Actually, I did. I sold all my CDs and started regular jams at my apartment with all my friends, and went and made new friends who were interested, and ditched the entire recorded music scene entirely.

One year later, between my gf and I I've got seven harmonicas, two guitars, 5 microphones, an amp, a set of PA speakers, a mixing board, a hand drum, a recorder and 3 flutes.

Oh, I'll admit I listen to some recorded music, but it's just as likely to be the sound of my Capoeira teacher on spanish guitar, my classmates on drums and me on harmonica as recorded in a grassy backyard on my mp3 player, or the jam song my buddies and I recorded about getting drunk and escorted out of a bar in a confused state.

Because modern recorded music really sucks, and it's really isolating, and the more I learn about music, the more I realize it.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[pogopark]

Man, I applaud the way you've found meaning in integrating music and creativity into you and your friends' lives.

I really do.

I'm not even going to front on that, at all.

It's true for me too, the recordings I make with my friends and work done by people I know dominate my listening habits. But that's modern music too, friend. We live in (r)evolutionary times and we are the movement. So who exactly are you dissing?

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[ShieldW0lf]

I guess I'm dissing an attitude. The attitude that there is more value in buying a bunch of Britney Spears and 50c albums than there is in buying an instrument and going and making music.

I'm dissing the entire recorded music market. The idea that you go on tour for years in shitty venues for peanuts trying to advertise your recordings as a product.

Recordings are the fucking advertisement, not the real value. Listening to an album is a poor substitute for the dynamic of creation or live appreciation of the dynamic of creation, and anyone who gets exposed to both bloody well knows it.

This big protectionist racket is propped up by a presumption that there is merit in continuing to run this big engine that elevates and polishes a few acts, then enforces distance between the audience and the performer.

They're fucking teaching kids in schools that if we don't keep spending our money on CDs, no one will make music anymore. WTF?!?

I think if we want more music, we'd get a fuck of a lot more if we stopped selling the masses crap gear and keeping the good stuff for the pros. Good stuff is expensive because it's more expensive to make, but it's also more expensive because good stuff doesn't get economies of scale, just the cruddy stuff that the uninformed and poor are willing to accept.

At the end of the day, it's a big culture that enshrines the few and has the masses encouraged to appreciate rather than participate, and it pisses me off.

I spend money supporting musicians. But not by buying CDs or sitting in stadiums. I give my money to the guys who are going to grin and make eye contact when I and a bunch of others are rocking out in front of them, jam out some new stuff no one has ever heard before, adapt their set to the feedback coming from the audience, then come smoke a doob between sets. Because having those people continue to go out among us and interact with us in that way is where the value resides.

In truth, having them get rich and fat selling pale copies of that experience, forced by contract to play only precomposed work in stadiums where there are so many people kept so far away that no one actually connects, I don't think that holds any value at all. I'd go so far as to say once that happens, you've deprived the entire world of actually getting the real value inherent in those artists existance.

I'm all ranted out. I'm going to go play. Thanks for the kudos, I respect that you're out there making it happen.

Re:No, actually, it's not.

[NulDevice]

Drum circles for everyone!

Open-Source Video Editor

[Conti]

It's time to learn how to use Cinelerra-CV, the best Open-Source non-linear video editor: http://cvs.cinelerra.org/ Doing that kind of video with Cinelerra-CV is possible.

Many words to say few things...

[Jugalator]

That sure is a lot of words to say so few things.

Revised news summary:

A Norwegian has gained some fame after creating music based on samples with Fruity Loops and distributing it on YouTube.

Neato

[mute47]

This is neat and all, but has been done for years by Hexstatic, Coldcut and others... Oh, and a related qote for you; "There is nothing difficult in playing an instrument, you just hit the right keys at the right time. The instrument does the rest." J.S Bach :D

I'm from the RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

Back the fsck off, this is MY music and MY artist and YOU owe me money. I'm sending a lawsuit to your mother.

Re: Funny & Insightful, Random vs. Legit

[TaoPhoenix]

I caught this guy about 4 days ago by wandering through Dominic Tocci's links. I was then mildly surprised to see that the WSJ picked this up, and by extension, SlashDot.

I am right now using DeliPlayer as my lead music app, because I DO listen to a lot of Tracker tunes. I agree what this guy's stuff is video humor enhanced mods. Someone on youtube posed a question though. I'm interested in the /. opinion.

Someone was counting frames during the high speed sequences, and wasn't sure he saw "all 5" clips for the matching 5 sounds. Does anyone think that he neglected any of the frames, implying that he built the entire soundtrack first, then added the frames on top, but missed a few?

You realize that's the same guy...

[so1omon]

Right? He's done a bunch of stuff like this.

Re:You realize that's the same guy...

[rantingkitten]

Yeah, uh. I realized that about an hour after posting my brilliant comment. Ah well. It's still neat.

[OT] - your sig

[Tim C]

Your English appears to be excellent, but "English" and "German" are proper nouns and so deserve initial capital letters.

Banging on the bongos like a chimpanzee

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like it's enough to be music.

"Pop music? Just a load of kids jumping about"

my $.002 cents

[gEvil (beta)]

Decent composer - yes
Skilled editor - yes
Musician - no (not yet)

To clarify on the musician point--I consider a 'musician' to be someone who has the ability to play a musical instrument with some sense of fluidity. From what I've seen here, there is no hint of that (that's not to say that he can't, though). However, as I mentioned, he does certainly have a good ear, a sense of rhythm, and a good feel from progression. All of these are essential for someone to compose music, which he is certainly doing. However, a musician would be someone who could also sit down and play it in one go, which he most likely can't do. However, he certainly has a very strong foundation to begin learning to play more than a few instruments, which would put him well on the road to becoming a musician.

Re:my $.002 cents

[Anonymous Coward]

To clarify on the musician point--I consider a 'musician' to be someone who has the ability to play a musical instrument with some sense of fluidity. You sir, are a tit.
This bloke is creating music, therefore he is a musician.
Even if a person were to record his own flatulance, pitch shift and sequence it to a tuneful melody, that person would still be a musician as he is creating music.

The fact that this was not created in real time is irrelevant, his method still produced musical results, whatever tools he used.

Musique concrète

[sultanoslack]

Well, it's a lot older than IDM (and a lot of IDM is synthesized rather than sampled). Really this got started as early as the 1940s with Musique concrète and at this point sampling is spread across every genre.

Re: Playing Tracker files

[TaoPhoenix]

I use DeliPlayer, though there are others. I haven't converted a lot lately; if Deli has a converter I haven't found it. I had to use something else one time a year ago.

Where did he get the drums and piano?

[StinkyPinky]

If he's not a musician then how come he has a set of drums, a piano and a triangle?

Re:Where did he get the drums and piano?

[_Shad0w_]

If you his comment on the side you'll see his borrowed them from friends.

I suspect...

[Ayanami Rei]

He's got a pretty good grasp of theory from the harmonics and progression of the piano portion, and he assembled a dynamite drum arrangement.

I think it's likely he can actually play both instruments; it's hard to imagine an original piece for keyboard unless you've a passing acquaintance with playing it; if not you might create something "impossible" to perform but still attempt it in this spliced-together video for the entertainment value.
Not a good case for needing to know how to play the drums from listening to the arrangement... but he had a set to record from... he has to be able to play them a little, otherwise why have them at all?

Re:I suspect...

[Lord Ender]

It is possible that he knows those instruments but intentionally used poor technique. There is no way to know for sure.

As a percussionist, it sort-of sounds like he wired those video clips up to different drums in an electric drum set. I have no idea if a non-drummer could have come up with a beat like that on his own.

Reminds me of sCrAmBlEd?HaCkZ!

[syukton]

This video reminds me of sCrAmBlEd?HaCkZ!

A video of s?H! in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRlhKaxcKpA

Some info from the video: "First it's analyzed to detect the beats to determine the tempo of the track. Then the whole track is split up into small notes of musically meaningful length. Quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth, and so forth. Using psychoacoustic techniques, the sound signatures of all snippets are calculated. The sound signature of each snippet is now shown, symbolized by a sound spectrum. Finally, all sound signatures are saved in the database. Now that the music videos I want to plunder are analyzed, I can start to play with it. I'll sing, scream and beatbox and make all sorts of noises--hungry poetry actually--to describe music I want to be reconstructed out of samples from the database."

Trusted Computing?

[tepples]

Renoise is a free download - you only need to upgrade for rendering to wav and [...]

This scares me. Does the trial version of Renoise use the Secure Audio Path of Windows ME and Windows XP in order to prevent people from setting their machines to record the output of the sound card?

Re:Trusted Computing?

[scrm]

Not AFAIK. What's scary about that?

Download mp3s from urørt

[Sigg3.net]

You can download his mp3s from NRK Urørt: http://www11.nrk.no/urort/user/?id=36781 (click "Last ned" to download)

'some' in 'some fame'

[Sigg3.net]

Yes. I especially favour the choice of 'some' in "some fame".
He's not a superstar, he's not famous; he's adequately satisfactory.

Close...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cartoon Network created this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUx4cWZXFJo ...obviously a spoof of Lasse's earlier video, Hyperactive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9698TqtY4A

What if he can play and is just lying?

[ltrm]

Here's an interesting thought for those debating whether or not this guy qualifies as a musician.

What if, hypothetically, he can play both instruments to a high standard but has decided to use this technique to make the recording and to lye about his ability?

Does that change whether you think he's a musician or not?

Fantastic work... from a Musician!

[Kong99]

I've played the drums on and off for years with groups/bands. This guy is a better drummer than many I've seen/heard... lol. I'm not sure if I ever have/would considered myself a 'Musician' but this man is. And to boot he's got a great sense of humor!!

One other thing... ALL GREAT musicians have one commonality.... creativity. In my most humble opinion.

RJD2

[owlicks58]

So if anyone is still interested at this point, there is a song by the artist RJD2 that was made exactly this same way. It's called "Through The Walls." It's a "pop" song sort of format (i.e., drums, piano, guitar), but all the backing tracks were made from splicing the instruments together note by note. If I remember correctly in an interview, he said it took him something like a month or two to put together.

Not that impressive

[punkr0x]

I think computer generated music can be really good music, and I think it's cool that this guy is doing it and has found an audience... this song wasn't that good. It was ok but there was nothing interesting about it, I found it quite simple and boring. There is plenty of better music out there, computer generated or not. Why is this guy getting attention?

My Imitation Pompous

[Weaselmancer]

You've reminded me of a story.

About a dozen years ago, I went to New York with my then-girlfriend. We decided to go to the Met.

At the time I had long fuzzy hair, was only halfway bald, and wore fairly eccentric collegey clothes. A denim jacket, ripped jeans, loud shirts, etc. In short, I looked moderately freaky.

So we go to the met. Oh yeah, did I mention we had been drinking?

I decide to have a little fun with my girlfriend. As I would approach a work of art, I would make a comment as a joke. Something an art-type would be likely to say. And I was mildly drunk, so I was probably a bit louder than I normally would have been.

"It's artistic without being artsy."
"I like what he's saying with his green palette."
"It says a lot by saying a little, don't you think?"

The punchline? Since I was drunkish/loud, other people could hear me. And since I looked like a freak and was making these possibly insightful comments, they were agreeing with me, sometimes furiously. "Oh yes, I see it too!" Rather than possibly snub some super-insightful art weirdo, they decided the safest course was to agree with me.

A drunken electrical engineer on holiday.

Re:My Imitation Pompous

[emilng]

You were just saying what came to your mind.
I'm sure most people think of the same things when they see a painting.
I think it was more like an art version of Family Feud than them agreeing just because they thought you knew any better.

At the time I had long fuzzy hair, was only halfway bald, and wore fairly eccentric collegey clothes. A denim jacket, ripped jeans, loud shirts, etc. In short, I looked moderately freaky.
So we go to the met. Oh yeah, did I mention we had been drinking?

That's not imitation pompous - that's genuine wannabe New Yorker from out of town who ends up moving to Williamsburg, Brooklyn and pisses off people who grew up in NYC like me with their "New York City is the OMG greatest city in the world just because I live here and I know this sort of famous guy in like an indie band back before every other hipster had heard of them and oh did I mention that I'm in a band AND I'm a web designer?" attitude.

Re:My Imitation Pompous

[tehcyder]

The punchline? Since I was drunkish/loud, other people could hear me. And since I looked like a freak and was making these possibly insightful comments, they were agreeing with me, sometimes furiously. "Oh yes, I see it too!" Rather than possibly snub some super-insightful art weirdo, they decided the safest course was to agree with me.

So you expected people to react to a drunk loudmouth talking nonsense how exactly? Start an in-depth critical discussion?

The first rule of urban survival is not to talk back to crazies.

Re:My Imitation Pompous

[Weaselmancer]

No, no, no. Not like that at all. I didn't explain it clearly enough - my fault.

I had a few drinks and was feeling silly. I think I probably could have passed a breathalyzer if I had been driving. Just a few drinks, enough to feel loose, and maybe a little silly.

My comments were directed at my girlfriend only. I wasn't engaging anyone in conversation but her. And not yelling either, simply talking. But - if you've ever been in an art museum simple mild conversation can seem pretty loud. But - people were coming up to me to let me know how insightful I was. So it's not the "agree with the drunk, don't make eye contact and edge away slowly" scenario I may have painted. As for my comments themselves, nothing I was saying reflected anything in my soul. I was imitating LA Story, if you've ever seen it.

I was just having a bit of fun with my girlfriend, and accidentally learned something about the nature of critics and art in general. People who push their ultra-refined opinions on other people about something as subjective as art are simply full of it. Having done it once accidentally, I now know this for a fact. Art opinions aren't about the art at all - they're about the perception of the critic.

Re:My Imitation Pompous

[Weaselmancer]

That's not imitation pompous - that's genuine wannabe New Yorker from out of town who ends up moving to Williamsburg, Brooklyn and pisses off people who grew up in NYC like me with their "New York City is the OMG greatest city in the world just because I live here and I know this sort of famous guy in like an indie band back before every other hipster had heard of them and oh did I mention that I'm in a band AND I'm a web designer?" attitude.

I assure you I'm not a wannabe New Yorker. It's a lovely town and a fantastic place to visit, but that's about it for me. I'm not a city type. I hail from a cornfield in Ohio, pretty much.

My eccentricities are completely my own.

As for New York and the look itself, from my perception it seems to have something to do with wearing black coupled with the ugliest shoes and glasses imaginable. When I was there I didn't feel like another person in the whole city even vaguely resembled me. Of course it's been a dozen years, so that may have changed by now.

And my reason for going in the first place (well, that time anyways) was that the girlfriend in question was from New York. And took me to the only country bar in Manhattan, it was called Diamonds and Denim, IIRC. I didn't want to go but she said "No, you really have to see this." As a rule I can't stand country, but she was right - this was a riot. Two out of three songs were techno. Probably one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Watching New Yorkers in 10 gallon hats two-stepping at near light speed to techno. I'll never forget it.

Skilled?

[cheftw]

Have I missed something? This IMHO isn't realy very good anyway. STOP CALLING HIM SKILLED

Stop the Music!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now they're sampling Henny Youngman...

Re:"Unskilled"? C'mon...

[Big_Al_B]

A "tympani tan-drum" you mean.

Re:not that new - and not necessarily genius...

[borkus]

...unless he can do it more than once. I shudder to think how many musical artists have one trick and have generated one catchy tune by perfecting the one trick they now.

So, welcome to the One-Hit-Wonder club Mr. Gjertsen. Please take the seat next toToni Basil across from Antonio Romero Monge and Rafael Ruiz.

Skills to be a musician.

[jotaeleemeese]

At least in the Western tradition:

-You have to be able to read music.
-You have to be able to understand how harmony works.
-You should be mindful of the tradition that allows you to play or sompse your current work, that way you don;t need to reinvent the wheel.

If you broaden this to other musical traditions:

- You need to understand how music is produced in your own culture.

So is this guy skilled?

Clearly not. he does not understand the classical tradition, most likely has not heard about Stockhaussen, The Beattles or Steve Reich, and as many others have mentioned, there are tools to do better the exact same thing (sampling).

The fact that he knows what sounds cool, does not make him skilled, but talented.

There are plenty of people out there with talent for music that are not skilled.

Re:Skills to be a musician.

[Anonymous McCartneyf]

The Beatles were unable to read music. Does that mean they weren't skilled musicians?
Using your definitions, I'll take talented over skilled any day.

Add more ...

[Mathness]

Add more cow bell.

What is on the receiving end of the MIDI cable?

[tepples]

MIDI is a transport mechanism, and is not inherently related to sampling (micro or otherwise) or sound editing.

Strictly, you're correct. But in practice, apart from lighting control applications, MIDI most commonly transports packets representing musical events from a controller, possibly through a storage mechanism (a sequencer), to a synthesizer. At least the QuickTime synthesizer, the DirectMusic synthesizer, the Timidity synthesizer, and lots of standalone synthesizers work by playing back samples.

Sunday Bloody Sunday

[De Lemming]

This reminds me of the clip of George W. Bush singing U2's Sunday Bloody Sunday, also a great stop-motion video.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXnO_FxmHes

This guy is a good musician.

[WK1]

I play guitar, both acoustic and electric. I also play piano, and I sing. I'm somewhat tone-deaf. I would have a hard time playing a piccolo, because I have big hands, and haven't tried it much. I am not so good at writing music, or playing by ear.

I would kick your ass if you said I was not a musician. I've been playing for years, and I'm damn good at what I do. There are thousands of different types of musicians. None of us are good at "everything musical", we are classified by what we are good at. Mozart and I would probably not be playing at the same concert, entertaining the same crowd (even ignoring our age differences).

Always be careful what you say, and evaluate what it means, especially if your words are against someone else.

Your point is?

[jotaeleemeese]

You are choosing to attach a judgment of artistic value to the "skilled" or "unskilled" labels.

Luciano Pavarotti can't read music. He is clearly unskilled.

As were the Beattles up to a point(the recent forays of Paul McCartney in the classical music scene show just how unprepared he is from a technical point of view, he will be the first to admit that).

Re:Your point is?

[Anonymous McCartneyf]

Okay. Yes, McCartney does realize that he doesn't have the technical ability to write classical music unaided. Yes, he made some boners trying to write Ecce Cor Meum. But that wasn't because he was missing the skills you listed, per se. I know that he was taught the theory of harmony as a kid--we have his testimony. I know that by the time he was thirty he did have a good, if informal, background in musical culture. He dictated this work to a music-transcription program, so I'd like to think that the flaws in it aren't from his inability to read music; besides, after four attempts to learn to read music, I'd like to think he was at least musically semi-literate by now. The biggest snafu when he wrote this (aside from deliberate "errors") was that he didn't originally know the musical limits of a children's choir. Do they teach that in musical culture? (Seriously. I don't know if they do.)
"Skilled" and "unskilled" do have connotations of value. If you are told that someone is unskilled as an auto mechanic, you don't let him fix your car.
The skill of a musician is not directly related to the artistic value of what he produces, no. But the skills of a musician do set technical limits. If I am told that someone is unskilled at playing guitar, I don't expect him to play like Eric Clapton or Jimi Hendrix, and I would likely cover my ears if he tried. If I am told that someone is unskilled at drums, I would not expect a five-minute drum solo from him even if he is talented enough to drum decently without skill. Similarly, many readers, on reading that the piece in the story was by an unskilled musician, were surprised when they listened and found that the piece sounded musical.
The skills you listed in your original post are the skills of a music theorist. They are helpful skills for all musicians, yes, and most musicians would be better if they knew them. They might even be essential for classical composers. They are not essential for popular composers or for people who actually sing or play music. Music and musicians predate musical notation by millenia. Music and musicians even predate Pythagorus.
And being skilled at music theory is not sufficient to make you skilled as a musician by itself. Being able to read music and knowing the theory of harmony is cold comfort if you are tone-deaf and trying to sing with precision to an audience that cares about such things.
I hope that my position is clearer now. I will try to think my positions through more carefully in the future.

Secure Audio Path explained

[tepples]

Not AFAIK. What's scary about that?

Secure Audio Path is a part of Windows Media DRM, introduced in Windows Millennium Edition OS. It is specifically designed to disable the loopback feature of some sound cards, called "What-U-Hear" by Creative. WMA files can require it for playback, but because a lot of people are still on Windows 2000 Professional and a lot of sound card drivers aren't WHQL signed, very few WMA files in the wild require it. This will change as hardware running Windows 2000 is phased out in favor of hardware that comes with Windows Vista. But it would have been possible to enforce the lack of .wav rendering in the trial version of Renoise by playing all output through the Secure Audio Path.

Two things...

[chochos]

Not to undermine the work of this guy, which sounds really cool, but...

1. He DID take the idea from the White Stripes video that Gondry directed, right? Hardest button or something?
2. Does he have to look so much like Robin Finck? Well actually a mixture between Robin Finck and Aaron North, which is really weird...