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360 vs. PS3 vs. Wii - The Designer's Perspective
Gamasutra is running a piece today written by Ernest Adams, a frequent contributor to the site and an amusingly opinionated game designer. He writes to weigh in on the console war debate from the perspective of a game designer. He runs down the usual list of pros and cons for each machine, and then digs into the most creative aspects of each machine. Finally, lays out what he sees as the end result of this hardware generation: "So who, at the end of the day, will be the also-ran in this generation of consoles? On the global scale, I'd say it could well be neither the PS3 or the Wii, but the Xbox 360. The PS3 will win over the hardcore gamers who have to have the fastest, most amazing machine available. The Wii will skim off the younger players and those who don't have as much money to spend. Both have the advantage of being made in Japan, so they'll crowd the Xbox right out of that market. In the US and Europe, it's harder to say, but I see the Xbox's early start as more of a liability than a benefit."
"So who, at the end of the day, will be the also-ran in this generation of consoles? On the global scale, I'd say it could well be neither the PS3 or the Wii, but the Xbox 360. The PS3 will win over the hardcore gamers who have to have the fastest, most amazing machine available. The Wii will skim off the younger players and those who don't have as much money to spend. Both have the advantage of being made in Japan, so they'll crowd the Xbox right out of that market. In the US and Europe, it's harder to say, but I see the Xbox's early start as more of a liability than a benefit."
I don't know what will happen in total sales, but I expect that the so-called "Hardcore" gamer will likely purchase multiple systems and will be very attracted to the Wii because the nature of the titles it recieves; what I mean is that many of the so-called "Hardcore" gamers will buy pretty much any piece of hardware that has enough exclusive games, and pretty much all Wii games are exclusive due to the nature of the console.
The majority of gamers are not hard-core and are no where near as big of graphics whores as some people assume; gaming is probably not their only form of entertainment so they're probably less likely to spend too much money on it. The price of the Wii is probably very attractive to them, but they also haven't played enough games to care about how stagnant the industry has become.
...that the XBox360 might be good middle ground for many people, and would thus do quite well in relation to the other two? Don't get me wrong, I wish I had all three, and maybe for now I'd be happy with a Wii. But an XBox360 isn't that much more, and can do much the same stuff as PS3. Maybe it will come down to killer games, and Halo3 will help out a lot there. Wii's got its own fan base... With all the launch glitches from Sony, and recent evidence that they want even higher priced, PS3-based home entertainment systems, makes me think that as gaming consoles go, PS3 may end up the lose. My 2cents.
There are actual console developers with insight into the race between the PS3 and Wii, the problem is that anyone with an actual worthwhile knowledge is too busy actually making games.
...
So instead we get the worthless ramblings of the console dev world's deadweight:
'game designers' aka level monkeys
producers
testers
because the Phantom will destroy all the consoles in the end!
I think it is interesting that everyone seems to be assuming that the fight for first/second is between the Wii and whichever of the other two win out. In the article above as well as the other slashdot comments already posted there is a base assumption that the Wii is going to do quite well. It is as if everyone is acknowledging that the Wii already has a certain segment of the market sewn up and that gives the advantage in the three way battle for the rest of it. Now, that could be completely wrong, but I think it is very interesting to see that unspoken assumption in so much of what I read.
This article is useless rhetoric about the "console wars". At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who has the best graphics or the best kind of control system. What matters is what you like to play, and which console will give you that. The people who want to play the games that only the PS3 offers will buy the PS3, regardless of what Nintendo and Microsoft do, and vice-versa. There will never be a winner to the "console wars", and thus ample opportunity for people to rehash the good and the bad of all of the systems to try and make it sound like a new angle, when they're really just kicking a dead horse.
Or the gamers who, you know, like to have more than 3 games a year and care about more than Halo. It's not like the prices are going to stay fixed forever, and I know kids who have, on their own earnings, bought all three last-gen consoles.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
The Wise Muse hereby predicts a return to the 8-bit Nintendo: the game selection is large and the console is cheap.
From the Article would be:
"So which do I want to design for? From a creativity standpoint, it's the Wii, hands down (or up!). "
Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
The Wii appears to have one fundamental problem now that I've been around multiple people who have the system, including myself. The novelty wears off pretty quickly. For some people it takes only a few minutes, for others maybe a couple of weeks. But it seems like everyone has a moment where the Wii goes from 'amazing and revolutionary system with a controller that has unlimited possibilities' to 'eh, just a GameCube with a pointer for a controller that doesn't really work very well for most games'.
... "Anonymous Coward Sony Fanboy Troll says that the Novelty wears off pretty quickly, so I don't think I should bring it over."
I'll try to remember that to get people to stop asking me to bring my Wii to their Christmas party
So far I have not seen anyone play with my Wii and not be immediately engaged. Honestly, from what I have seen, the novelty of shiny graphics wears out far faster than the Wiimote does; I've seen crowds gater for 5 minutes to check out the graphics of the XBox 360/PS3 only to disperse immediately to do something better with their time.
Most people don't care all that much about graphics when they're enjoying the game they're playing; in fact if you're enjoying the game you will probably not be paying too much attention to any of the graphical effects that are happening.
Good point. Nintendo will have to rely in the "whole product experience" and not the "added/kludge/hacked" approach the others will take if this input method catches on. But there is a lot to be said for the whole product experience.. it's a good reason the ipod keeps on top.
So, I've been kicking around the idea of getting a 360 for months, now. I was close, but put off by the sticker shock, and decided to hold off for a bit longer. Maybe until a price drop.
A couple days ago, though, I went over to a friend's place; she manages a small EBgames store, and has a 360 and just about every notable game for it. It was just a small get-together, so a bunch of us spent some time browsing through her collection of 360 games. I'm glad I didn't buy one.
Gears of War. Rainbow 6: Vegas. Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter. FEAR. YAWW2FPS (Call of Duty something, I think). Dead Rising. Saint's Row. Splinter Cell: Double Agent. Dead or Alive 4.
Incidentally, most of these games are the most popular on the 360. Notice something? It's almost entirely FPS. R6:V, CoD and GRAW are your archetypical boring, generic, sequel shovelware. Gears of War and FEAR are both good games in their own right, but considering the company they're in, they don't exactly stand out. Then you have yet another Splinter Cell game, which falls in the same boat: a good game, but reeking of been-there-done-that. Next is Dead Rising, a good game with a few very, very deep flaws, but basically fun, and Dead or Alive 4: an uninspired button-masher fighter that doesn't look like its had its sprites updated in years. Nevermind that the game ought to come with a jar of vaseline, as it's mainly beat-off material for teenagers.
It's not that the 360's game lineup is all that bad, it's just that the console's been out for a year now, and the best game on it is a FPS, on a console that's drowning in FPSes. Yet where are the RPGs? Oblivion and its broken leveling system and litany of cut-and-paste caves/dungeons? Bottom-of-the-JRPG barrel drek like Enchanted Arms (if you're not acquainted with how agonizingly bad this game is, take a look at some of the gameplay videos on Gametrailers)?
If the 360 really has a weakness, its the utter lack of diversity in its games. It's a hell of generic sequelism. That's fine in a launch console, but not a year after release.
From the developers perspective, the Microsoft solution cen be the best choice - it allows (or will soon) to write games that are cross-compatible between the console and the PC, thereby minimizing the gaming company's efforts to get into both markets. I think that's a very lucrative incentive.
The next generation of MS console will most likely have a motion-sensitive controller as well. They've actually made motion-sensitive products before, so they can easily accomplish and likely top the feat, especially with the advances in technology made so far. I'm sure they already have a prototype already.
Their weak point, however, is lack of backward compatibility - hopefully that will change next time.
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
You or your functional equivalent would have said the same thing, substituting Sony for Microsoft, had this guy said the PS3 was going to lose. Somebody has to sell fewer consoles than the others, that's how this market works, and I have no idea which company it will be (I have a strong hunch it won't be Nintendo), but since both the two roughly equivalent (and therefor most likely to knock each other out) machines are made by 'enemies of /.' it seems that either you or your Sony-twin is destined to continue to be upset somehow.
This article is far from hard news, but c'est la vie d'/. (that is a punctutation disaster)
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
The problem with this is that users have to buy the x-box or ps3 "wiimote" separately instead of it coming with the system. I forget exactly what the percentage is of users who buy additional peripherals (such as additional drives, special controllers, etc) after buying the core system, but I think it's quite low. Obviously, developers want to make games that the greatest number of people will buy, not just the few people who bought a particular peripheral. Basically what I'm saying is that if MS or Sony do come out with a "wiimote" chances are only a small percentage of console owners will purchase it, which means you probably won't see many games taking advantage of it.
Sorry for the hasty post. Should've used preview.
Anyway, I meant people will wonder why they ever bought the PS3, not the 360.
TLF
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
That kind of controller is probably patented (bold for no particular reason)
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
I have watched 11 BD movies on my PS3 and none of them have hung the system. I have seen zero reports of BD movies hanging the PS3. You sir are a fanboi or a troll... or both.
Yeah, but without an additional calibration method (ie: sensor bar) to fix the drift from the accelerometers in the Sixaxis, you'll never be able to use it for "aiming" at the screen or anything requiring precision... Just gross movements.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
I'll try to remember that to get people to stop asking me to bring my Wii to their Christmas party ... "Anonymous Coward Sony Fanboy Troll says that the Novelty wears off pretty quickly, so I don't think I should bring it over."
... Play with my Wii... I think Nintendo's marketing gurus are a lot smarter than the rest of us, in hindsight...
My friends just asked to have the New Year's party at my house so they can play with my Wii. On the one hand I'm happy, on the other hand I feel strangely used.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
The current winner is the PS2.
You didn't score well on the reading comprehension test did you? I'd say more but I don't think you will read beyond the first sentence.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I don't think people are rushing out to buy the Wii because it has an innovative controller. IMO, the game lineup over the next few months (plus the low price point) is sufficient reason to get one, controller or no.
Microsoft took the wrong (quickest) route to hardware buildout to launch. They also went as closed hardware as possible. Those decisions will bite them soom.
Think of this: My new PS3 doubles as my desktop.
Remember all the 'I will switch when all my games run on Linux' folks out there? They can now dual boot their shiny PS3 into Linux. Want to play a great game? Boot into PS3 console mode and play away. Need a larger hard drive? Any good SATA laptop drive will fit and work, and with a bit of cobbling you can hook up a 750GB SATA drive, for the true hobbiest.
Having a more open hardware platform lends itself to a richer and more diverse community. Oh wait. Microsoft has a community that you must pay a monthly fee to belong to! In contrast, Sony Online for PS3 is free, and also, Sony has donated code that has been accepted into the main 2.6.20 and above Linux kernels! That means that all PPC Linux builds from now on will work natively on the PS3.
Is the PS3 perfect? No. (512MB RAM) But it is definitely more than you are seeing.
Most folks look at the PS3 and see an expensive console. The wise look at the PS3 and see a great console, a BlueRay player, a desktop replacement, an amazingly attractive unit, and a HUGE, OPEN community.
Game on!
> had this guy said the PS3 was going to lose
I would disagree, but I would not find the idea to be divorced from reality. The Wii is a powerful contender. I believe it may surpass the PS3, IF the developers step up with a vengeance. I believe this is unlikely, because I think the only truly revolutionary use of the Wii technology will be in first-party games. Third-party developers will generally either copy Nintendo badly, or do something new and ill-advised.
> Somebody has to sell fewer consoles than the others
I don't think the Wii AND the PS3 can BOTH surpass the 360. I think this race is either 360-PS3-Wii, PS3-360-Wii, or 360-Wii-PS3. In that order. I do not believe the Wii can be number one, and I do not believe the 360 can be number three.
Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
That's just his point I think. The Wii is a great console for a "bring it over and we'll have a blast" moment, but really if you're playing it all the time (or just a lot) I think that the novelty DOES wear off. It seems to be much more of a do stuff with people system. Not that that's a bad thing, but your friends asking you to bring your Wii to their Christmas Party for an hour or two of play is different from playing it for weeks.
Sure the novelty will wear off. Even a holodeck in of itself would be passe in a few weeks. You are proving his point by emphasizing that people want you to bring over that new fangled toy to their party. But just like the new fangled toy everyone was playing last christmas, this one will either continue to offer innovative solutions to its gimmick and succeed or else rely on the gimmick alone and fail. The point is, the gimmick itself will only last for so long, and then it'll come down to the quality of the product.
I remember a couple of years ago fishing controllers were all the rage. Since you couldn't do anything except fish, it lasted about one holiday season.
The Wii is without a doubt the best party console. It's a blast to even watch others play and laugh at how stupid they look swinging that remote around. Unfortunately, I've only been able to play it in groups. But I do see how the novelty could wear off when you're not playing with friends.
There are games that just aren't any fun if you're not playing a local multiplayer game. I doubt every wii game would be like that, but I'd have to say I couldn't see myself playing Wii Sports by myself.
My experience is every parallel design fails to achieve its promised potential. Software programmers have a hard time making use of multiple core and multiple processor systems. Almost all programmers have learned software development on single-core/single-processor machines. The result is almost all programs run well on single-core/single-processor computers. Dual-core development isn't too difficult, because many programs have certain natural parallelisms that make it easy to keep two cores busy. If you look at most parallel processing curves, times get really tough when you have more the 4 cores. Not many programs are easy to parallelize at the 4+ core level. The Cell on the PS3 has 7 cores.
A general lack of availability of multi-processor/multi-core developers, and the high-difficulty level of multi-thread software development, will mean that the PS3 development runs late and over-budget. This is a big problem for someone thinking of developing software for the PS3.
And quite frankly, let's say the novelty DOES wear off after a month. Well, see, that person has ALREADY BOUGHT THE WII.
From the almost viral effect the Wii is having, in a couple of years we might see 100 million households with Wiis that are just getting bored of it. Remember the old shampoo commercial? "I told 2 friends, then they told 2 friends" etc. Every last person who's been over to play with my Wii (insert joke here) is now lining up every weekend trying to get one. Once they have it, every one of their friends will be doing the same.
If having half the the planet owning your console, and bored of it, is a problem - I'd like to have that problem, thanks. You think these people will stop buying games entirely?
Besides the fact that "a controller that doesn't really work very well for most games" is complete and utter bull. I've never seen a new idea implemented so nicely on a release lineup. The games designed for the wiimote work amazingly well RIGHT NOW - imagine how good this will get in a couple of years.
I've been a Nintendo fan for decades. I've loved nearly everything they've put out. Yet even I didn't think they'd see a TENTH of the demand and excitement going around right now. It's almost scary just how many people are telling me they want one. And it's got hardly any games yet. Wait until this thing has a few hundred titles out.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
There are 10 kinds of people: ones who understand ternary, ones who don't, and ones who think this joke is about binary
They can now dual boot their shiny PS3 into Linux.
While I agree that its a neat ability with the PS3, thinking in pure numbers, this can't attribute more than a tiny tiny fraction of the console buying public.
You could argue the other side too, I have a computer, i don't need a browser on my tv, all I want is games and to stream my photos/videos, why pay more for some things I won't ever use.
But again i'm not trying to be argumentative. You're exactly right, some people will buy the ps3 because they can load linux on it. Some people will buy the 360 because they will soon be able to play the same game with their PC-only friends. And some will buy the Wii because of the controller... its all personal preference and we still have at least a year before we get some hints at who the "winner" will be.
Perhaps what Nintendo understands that no other maker does, is that the last two generations of consoles have cultivated a different kind of consumer/user than previous generations: the "twitch players" which represent a tiny portion of the potential market. Why have so many FPS and violent games come out? Why are developers pandering to this group? I suspect because these games are easy to crank out and don't require nearly as much creativity. As a result, most people don't really give a shit about the "console wars." I know I don't. My last console was the N64 which I abandoned after the dearth of quality games (other than the core Nintendo titles).
It's all about the software. It always has been. The console that has the best software will win. It doesn't matter what the hardware specs are. Great software can compensate for inferior hardware -- though most of today's developers don't seem to understand that. I saw games that ran in 16K of RAM that had more longevity that today's multi-gigabyte monstrosities.
Quite simply, this is why the Wii will come on top. There is no way you can do that with an XBox 360 or a PS3.
--R.J.
Electric-Escape.net
is that the PS3 release where your review mirror crops out building and shit?
the same PS3 that can't do lighting right in fight night round 3? yea Sony released a real winner with that one
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
There are some of us who just want a console. I don't need another computer, another DVD or CD player (or HD-DVD/Blu-Ray for that matter). I just want something to play games on. I can do all the other stuff on other devices I already have, or I can purchase them later and use them. While it's sometimes convenient to have everything in one device, to me that's more of a problem than a feature. There's more code and more hardware, which leads to more things that can go wrong. On top of that, if it does happen to die, you lose ALL that functionality rather than just the one device.
I'm probably not going to buy a PS3 unless they're really, really cheap someday. I'm not buying an XBox360 either because the games just don't interest me. My wife and I went with a Wii on launch day and have thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. Now we can even browse the web on it, though it's probably easier to just get up and walk to the computer room. I'm not complaining that it does a few extra things, because it's taking advantage of hardware that's really already in the system. But, I don't want a living room desktop replacement, and I'd assume a lot of other people don't want one either. We buy consoles to play games.
I can't find a single reason this statement makes sense except that it means the 360 isn't the newest thing out there... Not to say I told you so.. but the 360 is succeeding right now. In a year, maybe not so much. But by then Microsoft will have firmly seated itself in the console market. Something nobody thought possible, or at least many people didn't, not too long ago. Except me, and maybe a few others.
I have only one word in response: Dreamcast
Though at the end of the day I really think Microsoft is going to win out over Sony in this generation... Just saying history has shown before that an extremely popular console with a year or more of lead time over the competition can still be doomed to failure...
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
I haven't bought a console since the N64, and I'm seriously considering buying a Wii. The "novelty" is what makes it unique. There's not much you can do on a normal console that you can't get on a PC (I don't give a crap about fighting/racing/sports games), but there's so much that can be done with a Wii controller. So for the first time in ten years, I want a game console.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
Remember all the 'I will switch when all my games run on Linux' folks out there? They can now dual boot their shiny PS3 into Linux. Want to play a great game? Boot into PS3 console mode and play away. Need a larger hard drive? Any good SATA laptop drive will fit and work, and with a bit of cobbling you can hook up a 750GB SATA drive, for the true hobbiest.
.001% of the market... maybe...
'kay... that's about
Sony Online for PS3 is free
And sucks...
Sony has donated code that has been accepted into the main 2.6.20 and above Linux kernels! That means that all PPC Linux builds from now on will work natively on the PS3.
Again, what, 0.001% of the market?
If your idea of an free open community being so great would apply to 99.9% of users, then Linux would beat out Windows in the market 10 to 1. But guess what? People are very very happy to pay to use something that works, whether or not they can tinker under the hood. Yes you pay $50/year for an XBox Live account. I pay $15/mo for WoW, what's your point? I finally had a chance to check out Live at a friend's house last week and I have to say I'm shocked. I've never seen something from Microsoft work so well and so intuitively. If it wasn't for the colour scheme having more than two colours, I'd think I was using something Apple made.
I think your view of the average consumer is a wee bit coloured by the glasses you're wearing. The type of user you're describing is Sony's nightmare. They're losing $300+ on each console. The last thing they want you using this thing for is a PC. They NEED you to buy 20 games and 40 blue ray discs so they can actually turn a profit.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Hmmm, dare one suggest that your friends see the Wii as a 'novelty'...
:)
You're really desperate, aren't you?
My friends view the Wii the same as they view really good board games (Axis and Allies, Settlers) or tabletop RPGs or what have you: An incredible way to spend an evening together once or twice a week. It's a social activity that we all really enjoy the hell out of. Novelty factor applies to my buddy's K'nex Christmas Tree that well all help him set up each year for Christmas, not something we will do every week for the foreseeable future.
The Wii is a lot like one of those giant joke cowboy hats - everyone wants to try it on desperately and dance around like an idiot for a few minutes and then...
I guess if you change "try it on desperately" to "acquire one of their own desperately" along with "have bought their own controllers/accessories/games to play on my system since they can't find one yet", change "dance around like an idiot" for... well, okay, that one's kinda accurate for some of the games... and change "a few minutes" to "ten or more hours a week" and then add a bit on the end about how they're upset I won't take my Christmas presents before Christmas because they got me stuff for the Wii and can't play it until I open it... And something about my one friend salivating like a man who's half starved on a desert island over 'Super Swing Golf' like it's prime rib then yeah, I think that statement is correct.
At the end of the day you just sound bitter that you don't have anyone to on play on a Wii with.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
I'm surprised it took this long for this post. You're getting slow. I'll talk to some people over at Sony and maybe they can crack the whip and improve your response time.
...in that you call Ernst Adams a 'Designer'. If your main profession for over a decade hasn't been Game Design, then I think that term ceases to be relevant for you. Hopefully one day Gamasutra will realise that too.
So in summary, Microsoft, I don't care what you have to do, but get lots more top quality games out there. Both original titles, and Live classics. Steal from Sony's back catalog as much as possible.
The game lineup is tremendously dependent on the controller. If you didn't have the controller, you wouldn't have the great games. Notably, the sports title that ships with the box is one of the most popular of all as far as playing time is concerned. I wouldn't spend five minutes with the bowling game if not for the Wiimote.
Yeah, I know Zelda and others could have been done without it. But it's the games that use the Wiimote to best effect that's gotten people talking.
TW
Strange last time I heard anything about programming/designing for the PS3 is that it was even more of a bitch to do than it was on the PS2!
In a purely rational world your analysis would be correct. This isn't a rational world.
Nintendo has already won against the motion-sensitive controllers which are sure to follow. Nintendo has the mind share already. Mind share is a large part of why Apple's iPod remains on top, and it will be a large part of why Nintendo will continue to control the motion-controller game market.
Since console makers take in so much revenue from game sales, novelty alone is not a really good idea. You want people buying new games for years. They're not going to do that if it's in their closet somewhere.
I know Nintendo has said they make a profit on every Wii, so it's not like they're gonna go out of business if they don't sell enough games. But presumably, they'd like to have the best of both worlds and sell a lot of consoles and a lot of games. Unless playing games with the Wiimote continues to hold peoples' attention, they're not going to achieve this goal.
I know you can also get a classic controller and that you can use the Wiimote in ways other than wildly gesticulating, but if players end up using a more standard setup most of the time, it kind of begs the question of whether or not they would have been better off with one of the competitors.
TW
Not quite applicable. Dreamcast was hindered by a cash-strapped Sega coming off of a horrible previous console generation (Saturn), a lack of games, and most importantly the absence of EA on the platform (say what you will about EA, but without them you can kiss your ass goodbye). Add Sony's PS2 over-hype ("It'll render Toy Story in real time!") into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster. Microsoft, on the other hand, is not cash strapped, made a decent showing with the original Xbox, has a good amount of games for the 360 already, and has EA. Sony again tried the over-hype approach for the PS3 this time (yay, Kutaragi!), but consumers have learned to doubt Sony's promises after the PS2 failed to live up to even half of what they promised. And guess what? The PS3 is living up to maybe half of what they promised this time around, too.
Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo will easily lose out in this gen if they don't get developers to make plenty of worthwhile games. The 360 has the advantage here, as it's already got a large user base (relatively speaking) and devs know how to develop for it. PS3 may overtake the 360 if BluRay catches on and/or if developers are able to unleash the "unlimited" power of the cell processor to deliver compelling game experiences that the 360 just can't provide. Wii is sort of the wild card - how well will the controller work? Will it be something revolutionary, that adds to just about every game? Or a gimmick that only works well for a few games, but is more of a hindrance than anything for most others? While initial reviews seem positive, the long-term outcome remains to be seen (as an analogy, some games just don't work on the DS that play beautifully on the PSP)
:->) than any of their competitors. Also, because this is Microsoft, and they've shown time and time again that they're able to enter a market late, the underdog, only to come out to dominate it (through their own merit, through mistakes of competitors, or through nefarious means..)
And let's remember what happened last generation - the console that had the one year lead (the PS2) built up a library of games that the other consoles were not able to match (and this is a self-reinforcing cycle.. more games means more gamers means more games..) and indisputably won.
My money's on Microsoft.. because they've got the most compelling game experience right now with a larger library and cheaper games (I picked up PD:Z for $12.99
I am the maverick of Slashdot
except that hard core gamers should not get the PS3, because it's GPU is actually _slower_ than the x360...
and because there's no rumble (i still can't believe sony left this off).
boycott the ps3 until they add rumble back on!
music - http://www.subatomicglue.com
First, the PS3 is not the most powerful game machine on the planet. Both Nvidia and ATI are releasing a new generation of very powerful video cards. The 8800 is already out. Any computer with a high end next generation PC Video card is going to be able to curb stomp the PS3. A significant performance gap between the PS3 and the Xbox 360 is far from proven.
Second, the Wii is not that cheap. $249 is not that far off from the $339 for an Xbox 360 Core system with a memory unit. I would prefer a Premium myself, but to each their own. Anyone buying a Wii is buying it because that's the console they want, not because they're cheap. Gameplay is important, but I like decent graphics with my gameplay. We don't know whether the current heavy demand for the Wii is in the general gamer populace or from Zelda fanatics. I'm not trying to be derogatory, it's just that Zelda lovers REALLY love Zelda. 75% of Wii purchasers also bought Zelda.
Third, the Xbox 360 is about to pass the 10 million mark in consoles sold. Whether it happens before Christmas (once the sales figures are calculated) or soon after, it will happen. The Dreamcast sold a total of 10.6 million consoles.
Fourth, the demand for the PS3 has plummeted. Look on eBay right now and look at PS3s for sale. It has dropped down to $100 above MSRP. That's with a crippling shortage. Sony has placed an incredible burden on companies that develop games exclusively for the PS3. Every month, more games drop their exclusivity and are brought over to the Xbox 360.
The Xbox 360 may come in third. Japanese sales are awful. But Japan is third behind the Europe and the U.S. in console sales (remember only 128 million Japanese). As well, many Japanese may opt for the Nintendo DS this generation and forgoe a console. The Japanese live in tight quarters and have long commute times, making a portable the optimal choice. The Xbox 360 is pricey, but the other consoles are pricey for what your getting. The Wii is based on the Gamecube architecture and really should cost about $199 with a game. And nobody wants to pay $599 for a game console. So Microsoft should drop the price of a Premium Xbox 360 to $299 with a game. It would be a much more appropriate price.
You have a computer, yes, but more than one. (Since this is slashdot, probably yes) But many don't, and there's feuding in many households about who gets to use the computer, which for many folks is not a gaming machine.
The PS3 changes that. It's a good gaming machine that's also a computer. It slices, ti dices. If people are going to have one anyway why not install Linux on it and get even more use out of it. Especially if SCEfoo puts some marketing muscle behind Linux.
I do have to admit that I'm one of the people that Linux on the PS3 is aimed at, I've got a PS2 that does nothing but run Linux. I dual booted it for a couple of years, until I got a second one.
I think of Linux on the PS3 as Sony's Trojan horse designed to reduce MS's penetration into the "household's second computer" market.
Peripheral hardware does 1/10 the business of out of the box hardware. Even if both Sony and MS ship a wiimote ripp off, the adoption rate will be less then 100% and that means Nintendo will maintaina lead. Just as the HD-DVD add-on will not be a selling factor for the 360 but bluray will be for the PS3 becaus it's out of the box. Ditto with the wiimote and any sony/MS wiimote clones.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Ok, while I'm sure your post applies accurately to yourself, I'm not sure it applies to anybody else ever. How many people are going to use a PS3 as a desktop computer? How many people even know it's possible to do so? Maybe 0.1% of the market, and I'm being generous there.
Oh wait. Microsoft has a community that you must pay a monthly fee to belong to!
$50 a year. Not a month. It's not a monthly fee. It's $50 a year. And you can belong to the community without paying a cent, to download movies, game demos, buy Xbox Live Arcade games.
For your $50, you get free VOIP and voicemail service, the assurance that there are a lot of people working hard to prevent any players from cheating and assuring that griefers are kicked from the service. I think it's worth it.
Sony's system, on the other hand... well... it's barely even a system. It's the same thing we've had with PC games for decades; every company has their own, separate, servers, none of which can talk to each other. There's no uniformity in user names or interface.
and a HUGE, OPEN community.
If by HUGE, OPEN you mean "a few Linux nuts," then yes.
Comment of the year
I think Gamestops are the only places with the Interactive displays.
From the almost viral effect the Wii is having, in a couple of years we might see 100 million households with Wiis that are just getting bored of it. Remember the old shampoo commercial? "I told 2 friends, then they told 2 friends" etc. Every last person who's been over to play with my Wii (insert joke here) is now lining up every weekend trying to get one. Once they have it, every one of their friends will be doing the same.
I've noticed this effect with The DS. I bring it over with nintendogs and all of a sudden every girl in the room is surrounding me and asking how much it is.
I should have bought stock in nintendo, I sold 12 DS's to my circle of friends already.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Really? All the youtube clips ive seen have been of wii sports which i understand comes with the console. Do you honestly think people follow game lineups? I wouldnt even know where to begin looking for what games are comming out in the near future. The controller is the difference, and also why most people who havent seen the need to own a console for years (like me), are considering buying one.
I dont know much about console games, but if its anything like computers, I am sure that there will be so many games out for the wii that you couldnt possibly keep track of them all.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
Yes, and everyone knows that Linux users are SUCH as huge part of the market (I among them). Besides, Linux on the PS3 is crippled by lack of hardware support.
I can certainly see where you would have that opinion (that saleswise, 360>Wii, PS3=?). I tend to disagree, but it doesn't much matter. I just don't think it's reasonable to dismiss this article as just a product of /.'s anti-MS bias (which is how your comment came off), considering the strong anti-Sony bias also common in these parts. Feel free to dismiss the article because it's a total fluff piece, though.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
So if I made the best game with respect to graphics (e.g full HD,3d everything) but it was just pong I would cornering the market? I better get coding before someone beats me to it.
My Transformation Website
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Dude, stop posting on behalf of sony.
This bluray crap is just a joke, look.... go to any torrent site, and you can already get 4-7 ps3 games, all under 8gig.
So much for this "GAMES REQUIRE BLURAY" crap.
The only reason backward compat sux is because MS switched from Nvidia to ATI, now if MS just paid that $30 per 360 for an aditional
Nvidia original chip in each box you would have 100% backward compat since emulating the pentium would be a snap. I agree thats MSs
biggest failures is to kill the original xbox. They still could have made a small xbox and cheap to all the 3rd world/cheaper nations.
NOTE to MS: its still worth growing your cheaper pregen base so that they can be a future updater. Sony has at least that right
with the ps2 still going strong.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
> considering the strong anti-Sony bias
That's a weird crowd, though. They're complaining about Sony, but they're still buying Sony's products.
And I do think this conclusion's a product of straight up anti-Microsoft bias. I don't think any rational human being can predict a third-place run for the 360 this early in the game for the other two players. There's simply no evidence to support it.
Microsoft cheerleader, blue flag waving, you got a problem with that?
All a controller does is measure input and send it to the console.
The wiimote is about as integral to the console hardware as my steering wheel is to my PC. If there's a demand for motion sensing controllers, they're easy enough to add to the console later.
There is *NOTHING* inherent to the design of the Wii which makes it better at utilising a motion sensing controller than any other computing/gaming hardware. Yes, having it supplied standard with the console may make it used more in games, but that is an obstacle that can be surpassed. The PS1 didn't come with the dual shock controller either, light gun, or steering wheel, and that didn't prevent the existance of software that utilises these devices as appropriate.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
I'm not going to argue at all with your comments about the article writer, he's kind of clueless. I DO however have some arguments with your xbox vs ps3 statements. 1. The 360 starts out at $400 (with a 20 gb HDD)+ $200 for the HD-DVD player, and max resolution is 720p so far (correct me if I'm wrong), so we're at about $600 total for xbox with all the frills and it's not able to run any software microsoft doesn't want it running (i.e. Linux based stuff). Playstation 3 comes with a 60gb HDD (which can be replaced with any size laptop HDD), has a blue ray DVD drive included and can run linux by following basically a 4 step install process. All of that for $600. Now take into account the run of the mill blue ray dvd player out there is around $1000 and hd dvd around $500. If you include ALL the benefits of both systems the value of the PS3 appeals to more than just gamers (generally). For the basic gamer, you have 2x the resolution of the xbox and 3x the hard drive space. For the computer entheusiast you have a fully linux capable box (with Fedora's free version, not the $50 Yellow Dog version)that is fun to play around on. For the HD entheusiast you have a $400 cheaper blue ray dvd player than what's currently on the market. Sony aimed a shotgun whereas Microsoft and Nintendo are using lasers. Who's is better, it depends on what you want. But so far I've been able to play my blue ray's with no hiccups, haven't had any crashes whatsoever and have found my PS3 more than capable of fulfilling all 3 of it's strong points. When it comes down to it I compare the 3 main consoles to cars. The PS3 is a Jag, sleek, pretty, lots of luxury and extras. The Xbox is like a Dodge, rough, dependable, good solid base. The Wii will be like the VW, cheap, fun to drive, but no real horsepower. But then again, that's just my analogy and my opinion.
No, actually, no, that is not how the market works.
If Sony or Microsoft create a controller that works just as well as the Wiimote, they still lose. The winner is always the first to market with a functional concept. To stand a chance, Microsoft or Sony have to create something that is clearly better than the Wiimote.
Maybe if the Wii had launched with a whisper and no one knew about it, the competitors could have gotten away with introducting something similar and taking the market. But that's not what happened, Wii is a phenomenon. Sure, a lot of it is because it's new and different, and this is Christmas, but that means that everyone already knows what the Wii is and what the Wii does. A similar product just doesn't cut it, it has to be something that is so very clearly better that it doesn't look like just a knock-off to the average consumer.
So no, there is no achilles heel there.
just some guy
It's not crippled for standard desktop use purposes, web browsing, photo editing, e-mail, IRC, IM, in other words the majority of the things people use their computers for.
And again, if Sony would put some marketing into Linux, you'd see the numbers grow.
You know, it's kind of funny. For a while now people have been slowly turned off the videogame... the drain as be slow but it's beginning to get very noticeable. The main reason to this, I think, has been the slow over complication to games as of late... both in design and function, it something that developer on a whole seem to note and would like to improve. This is where the next gen becomes very interesting, since it is less about how many good games you have to a platform as it is how many player can be attracted to said platform. With this is mind, most of the industry seem to be content into the graphical evolution of systems today... in other words, most manufactures seem to think that designers in particular will as happy with the gflops pushing as their gamers are. But that is the thing about gamers today... you would think that most would care about processing power, vectorization, anti-aliasing and effects would be sorely wrong. There are gamers that do think this matters, but for the most part... gamers are not as cut and dry as the industry makes us out to be, and even by those standards they are shooting at the most narrow group. This little article seem to name that group the 'hardcore' gamer, those among us that take our games VERY seriously, that demand more and more power out of there hardware, that are content with the same experience with very subtle differences. The funny thing about the 'hardcore' group is that they are not the most populous in gamers, and they are very easy to define. The most populous of gamers has many names to them, the most command is the 'Casual' or 'Non' gamer label, and they are indeed this rather fickle group since they are not as easy to define. The few games that come up when defining this group is the xRevolution games (i.e.: Dance Dance Revolution, Para Para Revolution, Karaoke Revolution and Rev-like games), the xMania games (I.e.: DrumMania, BeatMania, GuitarMaina and Mania-like games (Guitar Hero's and so on)), the Sony Eyetoy games, Nintendo's Touch Generation games (known for the Big Brain series among others), Phoenix Wright, The Sims and SimCity, Nintendogs/Nintencats, etc.... It a vast little demographic that tends to generate a lot of numbers. These are the people that Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo would like to have aboard there platfroms... And the developers to make the games for them.
This is where some of what this Ernest Adams is saying seem to be off... for that hardcore gamer, it's the 360 right now, it has the titles, development is challenging but easy, they have bet the farm on being Online (which, seems to be working all the right for them) with such demanding high-profile games having some LIVE component. And they have be given a bit of a gift from Sony, more developers that have been pissed off at the price point of the PS3 system, the complex development tools and Sony's general management of developers. The problem being is that for that other demographic (I shall call them Casual gamers), 360 fails really badly... case in point is Viva Pinata, a Rare-developed game from Microsoft, where marketing seem to be the grand failure in to why it's not been as much of a hit as it could have been. Microsoft is too concerned with the hardcore demographic, to put any effort into a game like Viva Pinata that would hit really well with the Nintendogs/Nintencats crowd and market solely for such a vast group (oh and please note, as fair as I am concerned, Viva Pinata got good reviews and it quite a good game... it just that those getting Gear of War, per-se, are not the same one that would even look at the cover of Viva Pinata, sad but IMO that it the truth of the matter). Even still, if developers and publishers want to cater to the hardcore gamer, 360 seem to have all that you wanting, power, simple tools and the people to play those said game.
PS3 is in a long line of rather impressive electronics, it's a Blu-ray player, it plays DVD's, it has a hard drive, it's a Blue-tooth unit, it's a Wi-fi unit, the CELL chip, OpenGL ES, the SI
its clear this guy knows as much about gaming and gamers as i do about rocket science
Next time read the post before you reply to it.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
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I was planning on getting a ps3 for a long time, even after numerous negative reports. I expected the system to be more powerful then the 360 and to have a great deal more software. However almost every high profile developer is makign games for both systems and even those that stated exclusivity have changed their minds (like sega and virtua fighter). If the ps3 doesn't reach a certain amount of sales within 9 months I don't see them being able to have any exclusives anymore.
s sassin_s_Creed_Will_Feature_Better_AI_Than_PS3
Maybe it's because Kutaragi has been sucking with developer relations as a month old next-gen article mentioend (companies interested in developing exclusives for the ps3 not being able to get a ahold of kutaragi back when he still was in charge).
The biggest reason the ps3 is a blunder is the cost and relatively weak technology. According to the latest reliable article from next-gen the premium ps3 is estimated to cost $840 to build (the blu-ray components are a measly $125) of that. They took a massive gamble on the cell chip and it doesn't deliver. It's an interesting design for a chip however from all reports it's not any better for GAMES then a triple core 3.2ghz power pc that the 360 has. The cell only has one powerpc core and 7 other spe's which are far from being able to do what a full power pc core can.
Programmers are more easibly able to implement things like AI withoutt taking a performance hit on the 360 according to Ubisoft montreal in this article:
http://digg.com/gaming_news/Xbox_360_Version_of_A
What's worse is that some state the graphics chip in the 360 is just as powerful or more so then Nvidia's RSX for the ps3.
The ps2 came about before the xbox and it was smaller had a massive reputation and by then was cheaper then the ps2. Their was a lot of momentum for the ps2 and consumers bought it up and developers delivered numerous exclusives for it. The ps3 is in the original xbox's position now as far as timeline goes and it's not any more powerful then the 360 which costs $330 to produce the premium version versus $840 for the ps3 (Sony is NOT in the best position to take that much of a hit in the long term). Consumers see a $200 dollar price difference which is a big deal.
For this reason and the lack of supply i think we'll see a lot of support for their direct competitor, the 360. Microsoft is throwing money developers, giving them solid and cheap dev tools, and is innovating on the online front.
I'm a cheap broke ass who will wait another 9 months before i buy anything but It's no longer going to be the ps3. If final fantasy or metal gear stop being exclusive I won't even bat an eye to the system. It's just a big mess architechuraly.
Hmmm... Pie...
not only do i disagree with the author on the same point as the parent but i think this whole article is just a waste of time. all it is, is the same idle speculation that everyone else is doing on the internet with nothing of real substance to back up any of the claims. who cares if it's "from a developers point of view" if said developer is as uninsightful as everybody else out there. plus he seems to be sloppy on the details like this little bit:
_ video_game_consoles), but it also enjoyed a much greater lifespan. of course it got absolutely destroyed by the ps1 but it most definitely was not number 3 to sega's 2 for that generation.
"In the optical media era, Sony brought out the Playstation, Sega gave us the Saturn, and Nintendo hung onto cartridges for one more generation with the N64. From being a major contender, Nintendo dropped into third place and has since failed to recover."
The saturn was number 2 for that generation? what? not only did the N64 have much better sales (over 3 times the sales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling
he also glosses over important facts in pushing forward his 2 and a half consoles theory (which i think is rediculous)such as the fact that the market is expanding, creating more and more room for other consoles (you can see this by viewing the sales numbers in the above link). shoot, if you want to call the sega saturn a viable contender for its generation then you would have to except the fact that there were 4 major systems in this last generation with the dreamcast showing sales numbers just a bit greater than the saturn did in its generation.
if you really trace things out we've gone from one dominant company with nintendo's nes and a weak second in the sega master system, to two major companies with the genesis and the snes, to 3 with the saturn, n64 and ps1 (although the saturn did terribly here), to a more stable 3 with the gamecube, ps2 and xbox (with even a weak 4th in the dreamcast). Following this trend i think it stands to reason that there now might be room for three successful systems competing on the same level that the genesis and snes were competing at.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
I did. You said that Sony or Microsoft introducing a Wiimote type controller for their system will remove the Wii's advantage. It will do exactly the opposite, it will give the Wii a stronger advantage, unless the Sony/Microsoft solution is clearly better. If it is the same, or worse, the general market will see it as a knock-off, assume it is inferior even if it isn't, and choose the Wii, when they might normally have chosen an Xbox 360 or PS3 based on it's features.
This is why, when and if we see motion based controllers on the 360 & PS3, they will be very clearly different from the Wiimote in appearance and function. From a marketing standpoint, you run the risk of hamstringing yourself if you appear too much like your competition.
just some guy
Somehow I doubt Sony Legal is going to let a ps1 emulator on the 360 slide.
First off, my response is in no means authroritve. I only know 10 designers, and know their feelings, I also work at a studio of over 100 people in the game industry. That being said my "research" is more valid then Ernest Adams for a couple reasons. The main one is that most of the people I've discussed this with don't give a simple answer like "PS3 will win because it's more powerful" which is a flat out cop out. Or assumes you believe that buyers are morons who don't notice a 200 dollar price tag differential with out a 200 dollar perfomance differential. Only a few people bought the Neo Geo, and remember that was over "4" times more powerful then the other systems (at 3 times the cost) Hint. The Corvette, isn't oversold by Lamborgini Diablos.... Why?
The prevalant view is that no one is going to lose this round. At least not drop out. If someone does it's Sony, pure and simple. They are not turning a profit, don't have a good starting position, their company is in ruins and looking to cut a lot of budget, and the system is asking for more commitment at both ends then the other two. In addition their "Entertainment center" idea is just flat going to fuck them, because unless people constantly buy games, they would have been better off just selling Blu-ray. That being said, they will sell a LOT of systems, the problem is how many games will the sell. No Xbox Live, and other Microsoft developer helpers hurts them. The motion controller is also difficult to work with and their processor is crap for a developer. It's full potential won't be reached not because it's so powerful but because it's layed out in such a poor style. A 360 can get full potential by any programmer who knows about multithreading, GPU vs. CPU, and simple optimization. You might not get direct control of the hardware but in these days no one really wants it. Why does renderware sell? Because it controlled the hardware, not the programmer.
The 360 does a lot to help the programmer, and that's a big step, from match making, to networking code, to Directx, the programmer is put at ease. Porting a game to the 360 is a lot easier then to the PS3. That being said, what's important is sales and not developer's feelings. The point I'm bringing up here, is that the 360 is developer friendly, and with the big inroads that Blue dragon has made in a certain foreign market, Sony might have some issues. But this only talks about games. So let's look at current system sells.
Ps3s will sell in Japan of course, but the fact I've walked into 3 stores in the last 3 days, and seen PS3s in them isn't speaking highly of what sony has done. The fact that people are returning ps3 mainly because they can't sell them on Ebay speaks of intent to buy versus intent to resell. Yes those systems might not last long, but Wiis are selling out instantly with over four times the quanities already hitting stores.
Again is this important? No, This is just discussing what the trends to today is. So what's the prime goal. Well I'll explain who "Wins" The winner is the one who makes the most money and the most units. Note that this is NOT the same person, but the true winner the one you should care about but don't is the one who makes the most money. They will definatly continue to the next round.
The 360 has almost 10 million units out there right now. That's a shit load of units, but in reality it is far from insurmountable for Sony to come back from. The extra year has given Microsoft a good lead. Great. On the other hand Sony is having trouble breaking 1 million, and Wii is probably going to get 2-4 in the next 3 monthes. The 360 has exclusive titles, as does the Wii. Sony has "announced" certain titles, but dates are getting fuzzy, and exclusiviness is being called into question. Sony has lost a couple. However They still claim to have the big 2 (MGS, and Final Fantasy) and after FFXII's big launch, that's good however looking at the other exclusives they've had one can notice I didn't meantion stuff like Assassin'
Which one will have Spongebob Squarepants platform games? Uhh.... a **ahem** friend would like to know.... ;-)
There's no evidence to support the theory of a MS win either, really. The console hasn't done that well, globally speaking. It's certainly very far from a failure, but it's vulnerable enough that I think anyone who gets a wild hair to spout off some random sales order for the life of the consoles has about the same chance of being right. We don't have enough data now to go either way, but people being what they are, they'll pick one small data point and use it to make a huge leap of logic.
Some people would say that MS's huge lead will be enough to make them the most successful.
Others would say that the surprising strength of Wii ebay sales and its innovative controller will give Nintendo the best position.
Still others would point to the enormous (justifiable? i dunno) hype about the PS3 and figure that its power will lead inevitably to market success.
I don't think I could really denigrate the intelligence of anyone holding one of these beliefs, because there's not enough data to show that anyone is wrong, and people like to follow their hunches.
Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
Huh? He didn't score well on what?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
It's the controller and the price.
When I heard people were getting sore shoulders and backs from really bowling and really fighting, Wii became the first console that I *EVER* wanted to buy. When I heard it was only $250, "want" became "will". And I tried damn hard to get one now but the best I've gotten is, "Well we had 25 come in this morning but they all sold out in under 30 minutes. Would you like to buy a PS3?"
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
It's called "emulation" and it has been around for years.
First on geek's compters,
then on PDAs (the glory of Zodiac and GP32),
then on hacked consoles (DreamCast had one of the biggest scene, the PSP is a widely available handheld that can also be hacked to run emulators).
then officially on consoles (Sega produced a lot of arcade/console ports for Dreamcast, most of which where only CPS emulator + data. Fun fact : their Megadrive/Genesis port for Dreamcast used code from a emulator for PC)
and after years of battling against emulators and suing everyone, Nintendo finally realised that there *was* actually a market of nostalgic fans and slowly joined the movement, first by re-adapting titles for the Advance and then creating the "Virtual console" concept for the Wii.
So yes, although you meant to be sarcastic, you're actually right. Oldies are a big hit because their cheap (may be found for free on the NET or sold for pennies on console's on-line services) and there's a huge library of them.
And we may add : those games back then that were successful, were mostly because of their gameplay (hard to be successful with the graphics that could be offered by consoles back then), and therefore have a good chance to have aged well and to still have value today.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
No you're wrong. They'll have Duke Nukem Forever.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
While studying for a degree in Game Production Management one of the course texts was a book called On Game Design by Ernest Adams and some other dude who's name escapes me, now having read the entire article on gamasutra i think Ernest likes the look of his own written words. The first thing i asked myself was when did he write this piece? has it been sitting on his hard drive for a while? it seems so, my best guess was around about May time just after the last E3 because thats the perspective that it took on the situation. I can only speculate that Ernest hasn't been reading the very bad press surrounding the PS3 and its insistance on moving away from being a Games Console first and foremost. I really cant believe i trusted this guy's opinion on Game Design, his half baked ideas should and could have been much more thought out. Ernest needs to think outside the box more and step out of the timewarp that he lives in and realise that the market dynamics have changed incredibly since the times of the analogies that he was using in the article. Ernest needs to realise that the PS3 is leaking Exclusives like a rusty squashed flat bucket on its side that it really is, he needs to understand the development requirements of the PS3 versus Xbox 360 and he needs to understand that the Wii is something brand new to people and that counts for everything. Most of all though if this is all Ernest has to say then he should really keeps his uninformed opinions to himself.
You're right and wrong. People HAVE been most impressed with Wii Sports, which came with the console. But they DO follow the lineup of games. It just so happens that the 'tech demo' of a game that came with the Wii is so impressive that all other titles, on any system, pale in comparison right now.
I've seen a lot of people (including myself) state their reason for not buying a PS3 as 'no worthwhile games.' The PS3 racing game I saw looked like something my computer could have handled 5 years ago. (Complete with triangle-shaped dust particles.) The Wii racing game (Excite Truck) is a little hard to control at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's tons of fun. The track actually alters while you are driving. There are quite a few different ways to earn 'stars' which are the real score for the race. (Bonus stars for first place.) And the graphics on the Wii were almost as good as the PS3 racing game.
I looked at the ps3 coming lineup and could find nothing I want. The only title that may give me pause will be Final Fantasy, but since FF12 and I didn't get along, probably not even that.
On the Wii, however, there's already a few I want including Wario Ware, WiiPlay, and Super Mario Galaxy.
Not that there haven't been disappointments on the Wii. Red Steel, Elebits, Avatar. They just don't overshadow the successes.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
> Microsoft has proven that they can design a solid online offering, providing centralized friends lists, voice, chat, messages, easy matchmaking, really cool and innovative (as well as retro) games on XLA, coutnless downloads (that work in the background) and more. The PS3 forces each developer to provide their own online support or demand that gamers subscribe to a third-party service.
Sony has proven that gamers who purchase a game can actually play it online without having to pay extra for the "privilege". The XBox 360 forces each player to provide their own friends for local multiplayer, or demands that gamers subscribe to their first-party service if they want to play anything online.
A lot of people act like XBox Live, wireless controllers, and direct-download games are somehow universal positives that everyone would find appealing. Personally, I don't want to pay extra to play my games online, I don't want to have to recharge my game controllers and deal with input lag and dropouts, and I want a physical backup of my game purchase so I don't have to deal with a computerized phone system when some server decides my game license isn't valid anymore.
I think (in many ways) it is much simpler than that ...
Nintendo could have quite easily produced a console which had similar technical abilities as the XBox 360/PS3 and still cost less money; if they took something similar to a PowerPC 970MP dual core processor at 2.5 GHz and paired it with something similar to a Radeon X1800 GPU their performance would have been close enough to the PS3 and XBox 360 that (most) people wouldn't notice the difference.
The problem is Nintendo was very successful at producing very high performance, low cost, hardware with the Gamecube and it didn't make nearly the impact that Nintendo wanted; it sold poorly mainly because they could not gain third party development because of Sony's massive head start and Microsoft's willingness to buy development.
The Wii (in my opinion) needed to have far lower technical specifications to keep development costs down so that Nintendo could attract development to their system. If the Wii sold at half the rate of their competition, being that development costs were 1/4 of the PS3/XBox 360 development costs developers/publishers would still be developing Wii games because the risk was far lower; at the same time, Nintendo can devote the same ammount of resources as Sony/Microsoft and get 4 times as many games out of it.
With all the much better articles denied we still seem to get a glut of stupid posts like this. Okay, from a designer's perspective. There was no substance. It was so light and IMHO no real arguments to support the author's standpoint except for Wii. Yes, I think it's clear that Nintendo's strategy for the Wii was a good move and innovative. It's going to appeal to a lot of people, particularly mom's who see it as a much more athletic alternative.
But the comments regarding the PS3 & Xbox 360. And why the 360 is going to be the loser. No real supportive arguments were made. How much superior is the PS3 hardware? It's funny, because the comments that are general said about the PS3 is that it is the new generation's Xbox. It's big, overly priced, has more power but the game quality isn't taking advantage of it and the game play is eh. If anything, that would make me believe the PS3 might be the second. Except that Nintendo's Wii came out with an innovative strategy that I think will put it on top of the PS3.
Then there's the profibility. Who's losing money and how much? Sure, all PS3's are sold out...right now. But in a year when those are stocked is anyone really going to want to pay $600+ for one? Will the masses? Rumor has it that the 360 is entering profibility. This allows Microsoft to cut the prices. Economically, I am not sure SONY has the room for a loss. If the PS3 fails to do well it could spell doom. Even second fiddle might not be enough for the beleaguered SONY. Then what?
That said.....what I was really hoping to hear from this article was in regards to designing/programming games. And what advantage each system has in that regard.
- Saj
This is kind off-topic, but since it looks like several hard-core gamers are reading this, I'll give a shot.
I bought a PS2 like a year and a half ago, mostly for my girlfriend, who enjoys it very much. I don't use it at all, except for some quick football matchs with Pro Evo Soccer.
The question is: the only games that seems to appeal to her are the Prince of Persia series. All of the other titles just don't fit her profile. I'm considering buying a Wii, which looks fun, but it's not on sale in my country yet and several years might happen before it is available here.
So, the question is: are there any PS2 games as fun as the prince of persia series out there?
Thanks and sorry for the OT.
Now I am sad.
Yes, it is completely different to have them ask you to bring it over all the time. The reason? You still can't get them in my area unless you go to the store every day. That's the only reason they're not playing one themselves for weeks.
:)
I've had three non-gamers tell me they're gonna have to buy one because they had a blast with Wii Sports.
When people have had enough Wii Sports, we play Smash Bros. When we're done playing that, it's Soul Calibur 2. Bloody Roar, Mario Kart, Starfox Assault, Bomberman '93... I've gone to friend's houses every weekend for the last month and played for hours with 3-5 people.. I'm sure I'm not alone.
When the novelty wears off, people will have a ton of fun because it'll still be FUN. Imagine that.
I'm sad to say that as a whole Slashdotters have missed the forest for the trees on this.
:)
Enjoyable dead-horse debates here but all are splitting hairs, missing the point, and fairly clueless.
The only thing I can't figure out is if the preponderance of fanboys are shotgun happy contract trolls or if the sea of tech-savvy enthusiasts has really become so lost in the hype.
Use your brains and wrap your minds around a subject before posting you slackers. I know you're better than this.
Flame on flamers
The price point is down to what I feel it should be, the bugs have been shaken out, and I've got a large catalog of pre-reviewed games to choose from.
In 2001 I bought a Dreamcast bundle for $100 on close-out and had my choice of Dreamcast games for $5 a pop.
Being an early adopter in the VG console arena is just not worth the price or the bother.
In five years, I'll pick up a PS3 or an XBox 360 for a hundred bucks and find out what the fuss is all about.
Plop a PS2 down in front of a room of twenty-somethings, and more likely than not you'll get the guys playing on the console while the gals chit-chat or whatever.
A couple weeks ago, I was at a party where there was a Wii -- everyone was playing it. I was astounded. I don't think that there has ever been a gaming console that has appealed to the majority of females.
Now, IIRC, about 50% of the planet is female, so, who's going to win this round of consoles?
I've place my bet on the Wii.
What?!
Tell that to Apple! Hell, tell that to Sony!
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
And that, I think, is the most amazing part of the Wii: it's absolutely viral. Every part of it is viral: Even the stupid videos where people throw their remotes and the strap snaps, and the parodies of these videos with people with Wii controllers shot into their eyes - people talk about the Wii. At my work place, during the last week, the Wii has been discussed during lunch break almost every day. Normally, we don't even talk about gaming, but the Wii changed that.
I brought my Wii to work once, and of the four people who played it, two already ordered one. I've actually had girls who visited ask to power up the Wii and play a bit of Tennis - normally, they wouldn't touch a gamepad with a ten foot pole. I've had "Wii parties" where people came over specifically to play Wii, and some of these people have already ordered a Wii of their own - more would have bought one if they were available anywhere.
The Wii is totally viral. It infects everyone who plays with it.
No, they see it as a totally fun way to spend an evening.
The Virtual Boy was (and still is) a novelty, yet you don't see (and never saw) anyone doing any Virtual Boy Parties.
Yeah, and I expect that new-fangled d-pad to be passé any day now. Oh wait, the innovation is in the games, and since the Remote allows for more if it than a traditional gamepad, there's no issue whatsoever of it becoming stale. Sure, the holodeck itself ceases being a novelty, but next week, you get dragon hunters, and the week after that hot sexbot action, and the week after that sea diving, and so on. The fishing controller, on the other hand, will always give you fishing games.
Makes me wonder whether Nintendo would win more money by selling thousands of wiimotes for PC or by sticking to the wii.
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
What is this illusion that xbox was a solid #2 behind the ps2? First, even on the xbox' strongest territory, North America, xbox was a distant second to the ps2. Second, North America was the only territory where microsoft was ahead of nintendo. In Europe xbox was more or less tied with the gamecube, and in japan we all know the xbox story.
This really speaks highly of microsoft's marketing, since a lot of people in North America (including designers it would seem) seem to be under the impression that in terms of install base, microsoft wasn't that far behind from sony.
This is a developer? I call bullshit.
"Cartridges have the advantage of being sturdy and chewable, thus good for little kids, but they're slow and expensive to make,"
Slow? Since when the fuck is RAM slow? They were SMALL compared to CDroms, but they were NEVER slow.
Either he went out of his relm of experience in going over the N64 - or he's one dumbshit of a developer.
Oh fuck this guy is a moron:
"Sure, there's the Nunchuck to give them a joystick, and even the Wii Classic Controller, which looks startlingly like a good old SNES controller with added joysticks. But these are extra-cost items; they can't save the Wii if the ordinary Wii Remote tanks with the consumer."
Um - the nunchuck comes with the unit. It's not a extra-cost item. Someone please stick his head in a microwave - it's not done.
Nice link - thanks!
This is kind of a Chicken/Egg issue. As long as people don't buy PS3s, exclusive titles will not remain exclusive. As long as there are no exclusive titles, there's no reason to buy a 600-bucks-console if the same games run on a 400-bucks-console.
(Disclaimer: I own a PSP.)
Yes, there are good games for the PSP. No, there are not enough good portable games. Most good PSP games are ports or new versions of PS2 games, generally with similar gameplay (and generally less playable due to the PSP's single analog "nipple"). If I can't play a game during a 15 minutes train ride, I might as well buy it for the PS2.
My PSP has pretty much become my portable Lost player.
Yes, I own Loco Roco, and it's one of the few example of a genuinely new and "portable" game (it has a few other issues, such as always repeating itself, though). Mercury Meltdown I've only heard good things about. I wanted to try the japanese Demo, but my PSP decided to not let me download demos anymore and I had to completely reset it. When I finally found the time to do so, the demo was gone, so I haven't yet been able to look into it.
Another nice portable PSP game is Ultimate Block Party. It's somewhat similar to Lumines, but doesn't drag on and on into hour-long gaming sessions.
I also own a GBA and a DS, so I might be a bit spoiled. On these two consoles - especially on the DS - there are many, many games like Loco Roco: Funny little time wasters you can a) not play on any other console and b) take out for a quick few minutes of gaming whenever you've got a bit of time to waste.
Agreed. I use PSPWare on the Mac, which is quite nice, but I still have to download the shows from some P2P service and then let PSPWare convert them, which often takes a lot of time and sometimes doesn't work on the first try.
Please clarify which products you are referring to.
just some guy