eBay Delisting All Auctions for Virtual Property

The growing popularity of Massively Multiplayer games has brought the issue of ownership rights in virtual worlds, and the appropriateness of what is called 'real money transfer' (RMT) into an increasingly public light. The success of the company IGE, as well as the launch of Sony Online Entertainment's 'Station Exchange' service would seem to indicate that RMT is now an acceptable part of Massive gaming. The well-known auction site eBay has recently made a policy decision that may throw these assumptions into a different light. Following up on a rumour that's been going around I spoke today with a media representative for the company, who confirmed that eBay is now delisting all auctions for 'virtual artifacts' from the site. This includes currency, items, and accounts/characters; not even the 'neopoints' used in the popular Neopets service is exempt from this decision. Read on below for the company's rationale for this decision, and a few words on the impact this could have on future RMT sales. Mr. Hani Durzy, speaking for eBay, explained that the decision to pull these items was due to the 'legal complexities' surrounding virtual property. "For the overall health of the marketplace" the company felt that the proper course of action, after considerable contemplation, was to ban the sale of these items outright. While he couldn't give me a specific date when the delistings began, he estimated that they've been coming down for about a month or so. Mr. Durzy pointed out that in reality, the company is just now following through with a pre-existing policy, as opposed to creating a new one. The policy on digitally delivered goods states: "The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner." Given the nebulous nature of ownership in online games, eBay has decided the prudent decision is to remove the possibility for players to sell what might be the IP of other parties via their service. Mr. Durzy made it a point to say that initial listings of virtual property would not have punitive actions. Their assumption, he said, is that most users break with policies because they're unaware of them, rather than maliciously. Initial infractions will result in a delisting of items, and an attempt to educate the user on the policy. Persistent disregard for the policies, of course, will result in a removal of the seller's account.

We've spoken before on the possibility of taxation of virtual goods in the U.S. and abroad, as well as the economic impact these sales can have. With the removal of a very popular, very public source of virtual currency and goods from the market, what does this mean for the future of RMT? Will small businessmen who previously worked via eBay now turn to larger independent sites like IGE? Given that eBay is ipso facto declaring virtual goods to be the property of the game makers and not the players who 'earn' them, what does this mean for the future of virtual rights in general?

Comments

Just Sell the Time

[eldavojohn]

So, I'm aware that things like this have been implemented in the past. But the easy way to get around them is to not offer the item, gold or online property but instead offer to the bidders your personal time and service to acquire the items.

Examples:

• "level 60 epic gear warrior for sale" => "leveling services to get you a epic gear warrior"
• "5000 gold on Thunderlord" => "the five days of playing time it takes me to get you 5000 gold"
• "1337 item" => "time it took me to farm this item and give it to you"

I mean, are they safe guarding against this also? Because, in the end, what's wrong with selling people your time or services to them? Once they complete the service, you pay them. I don't know how they could find some way around this or tell which auctions for services need to be revoked.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[SatanicPuppy]

It's just eBay being stupid. IGE and all the other sites that cater specifically to gold/equipment/character farmers are just going to get more business because eBay is "worried about the legal complexities" of selling virtual property.

Honestly, I'd thought better of them than this...eBay sells so many things of purely subjective value, you'd think that some policy maker on the inside would have cottoned to the fact that value is a fairy tale, and that their business is to make money off people's experiments with value, not to "decide" that there are some things that don't have a place in their auctions.

Moron's who try to fight Supply and Demand by messing with supply get no pity from me. Where there is enough demand, and supply is not flat impossible, there will be supply. The only way to prevent the sale of in-game artifacts is to make them non-transferable, and that's never going to happen.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Znork]

Of course, one can question the wisdom in allowing real-world money to be exchanged for what is essentially a particularly tedious and inefficient database update.

In fact, should this type of exchange become prevalent in the economy I'd suggest anti-monopoly regulators come down on the MMORPG businesses like a ton of bricks and force them to allow many companies access to the database tables to update them so we can get a real free market evaluation of the 'goods' in question (ie, approaching zero).

You see, someone making their living off producing strictly artificially scarce items is someone not employed producing real scarce items; ie, it is a net loss to the economy as a whole, which means we _all_ get poorer by allowing such abberations to continue.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Da3vid]

Simple. They just delist all items that look similar. When in doubt in legal issues, you err on the side of safety. When in doubt on delisting on eBay, you err on the side of not having to read more than the auction title. Either that, or any company comes in and claims a potential dispute, then Vero just cancels your listing on their behalf. See? Simple.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[beakerMeep]

Because, in the end, what's wrong with selling people your time or services to them? Because it's a thinly veiled end run around the rules. I would imagine that since this isnt law, but rather a TOS policy, ebay can easily just say "Selling virtual items or services to provide virtual items is prohibited." Especially since the items aren't the intellectual property of the seller. I'm sure some clever folks will still sell this stuff more subtly. But having to be subtle will decrease your exposure to your customers, and thus your profits.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[maxume]

That's like saying people shouldn't be allowed to practice with their shitty bands or write shitty novels.

The good news is that the damn fool who is farming is lowering the amount of time the damn fool spending money on virtual goods is spending on the game, freeing up the spender to do other actual work in the economy.

Entertainment is an economic sink, it disappears productivity into the (supposed) well being of the person being entertained. Placing a silly regulation on a form of entertainment because it is extra stupid is a bad idea.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Cornflake917]

I mean, are they safe guarding against this also? Because, in the end, what's wrong with selling people your time or services to them? Once they complete the service, you pay them. I don't know how they could find some way around this or tell which auctions for services need to be revoked. There's nothing wrong with people selling their time for games like WoW. At least, there's nothing legally wrong. However, in terms of the WoW EULA, the trading of characters and gold out of game is not allowed. eBay probably feels this is unethical, and the fact that they are allowing and making it easier for people to circumvent Blizzard's contracts is borderline illegal. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they made this decision because Blizzard is threatening them with legal pressure.

IIRC, almost every WoW character being sold on eBay had the same disclaimer stating something on the lines of "By looking at this webpage you are agreeing that you aren't a Blizzard employee. The sale of this auction doesn't involve any possesions, instead you are paying for my services and time that I put into this character."

That's probably why eBay made the decision to delist all virtual goods, because people were always finding ways to circumvent their rules by changing the wording. Now they won't be able to do that.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[ivan256]

It's just eBay being stupid. IGE and all the other sites that cater specifically to gold/equipment/character farmers are just going to get more business because eBay is "worried about the legal complexities" of selling virtual property.

It's not eBay being stupid, but it's not what they're saying it is either. If eBay thought they could make money providing this service, they would. The real reason is that the associated costs and risks exceed the profit available from these transactions. I'm sure that internally they have statistics that show the rates of disputed transactions, and the administrative costs of dealing with them along with the cost of liability insurance for the potential litigation associated with these transactions. They compared those numbers with the projected revenue and one side won.

This isn't a philosophical issue, or eBay trying to prevent anything. Companies don't work that way (usually). This is almost certainly purely economic.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[KevMar]

I can spend 3 hours in the game farming (not doing the fun stuff) to earn 300 gold

or I can spend 3 hour working extra (or overtime) to make $30.00 and purchase 1000 gold.

what is your time worth to you?

What if it took you 3 hours to make 50 gold?

each game and even game server are different, but that was the exact exchange that many world of Warcraft players would face. Recently the market has shifted around, but at one point it was more economical to just purchase the gold.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[beakerMeep]

Wait what? Why is it stupid to drive away business that opens you up to potentially being sued by game makers for facilitating the sale of someone else's intellectual property? are you claiming it's stupid to get out of bad business practices because "other people will just pick where we leave off"? Also how is ebay "messing with supply and demand"? it's not like they are deleting items from WoW's database. or charging extra fees based on demand for vitual goods. they are just getting out of the business of facilitating transactions for these items.

The only way to prevent the sale of in-game artifacts is to make them non-transferable, and that's never going to happen.

some games actually do this for a substatial number of items. While they couldn't do it for all items it has an added benefit of requiring people to grind for items themselves.

I'm no fan of ebay, but your argument makes no sense.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[wooden pickle]

Examples:

• "level 60 epic gear warrior for sale" => "leveling services to get you a epic gear warrior"

Really bad example. Noone would buy a warrior anyway because they're so ridiculously underpowered.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[pluther]

Of course, one can question the wisdom in allowing real-world money to be exchanged for what is essentially a particularly tedious and inefficient database update.

While I was in college (in the 80's), a major source of my income was entering data off of printed lists for various companies. These companies seemed to think it was worth exchanging real-world money (up to $8.00/hour!) for a particularly tedious and inefficient database update.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[maxume]

Let's just say I'm not a fan of video games where spending time doing something simple and repetitive is beneficial. I get that it made sense, but that says game problem to me, and I don't understand why anybody would play a game with such apparent problems. Presumably they enjoy it, but I don't imagine I would.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Znork]

"practice with their shitty bands"

Practicing with shitty bands isnt an artificially scarce product.

"freeing up the spender to do other actual work in the economy."

The goods in question are _artificially_ scarce. _Neither_ needs to spend time as the items are _only a database update_. In the 'real world' it takes neither time nor resources to produce the in-game items; at a 'real world' market valuation, they could both (and, in fact, everyone in the game) have the particular item at zero cost, freeing them _both_ up to productive work.

That's the whole point of the real-world free market economy; to maximize the production of wealth in society by creating incentives for the most efficient production possible. To accomplish this goal within the mmorpg realm the solution is simple; enforce open databases, with the immediate result that anyone can have anything whenever they want.

Of course, this is quite probably rather undesireable for the actual mmorpg. Which rather reinforces the point; the real-world economy and the fantasy of games are quite incompatible and should not be mixed, as the systems are at odds at their very foundation; one is intented to minimize wasted time, the other to maximize wasted time.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[xeromist]

Ebay isn't saying you can't sell things of subjective value. Where they have a problem is that they aren't sure who the item belongs to. Sure there are issues of hacked accounts having stuff sold off. However the real issue is that they're not sure whether you or Blizzard owns that epic gear.

You paid for the game time and put the effort in to earn that copy of an item, so maybe it is yours. Artists at Blizzard created the item and it, just like everything else in that virtual world, is the intellectual property of Blizzard. Maybe the item belongs to them then.

There is also the issue that many MMO games have explict prohibitions against selling items. All it would take would be one publisher deciding Ebay was promoting violations and deciding to sue. Would they win? Doesn't matter because Ebay doesn't need the headache. They figure the listing fees wouldn't weigh against the cost of a court battle.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

We mess with supply and demand when the evolving market is heading in a direction we'd rather not go. In those cases, we correct by messing with the payoff matrix by imposing restrictions or incentives. It's a nice way to ensure that we don't get wiped out by blast when some equation blows up.

Look at organ transfers: There is certainly demand for organs. A free market system might be a very efficient way of meeting the demand for organs, but it would put us in uncertain moral territory. In the absence of a better solution, we prohibit an open market for organs.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[maxume]

So what's your position on electronic books?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Machtyn]

Of course, there is one more question: What is the value of the 300 gold or the 50 gold. Some games, 300 gold is just about as useless as 50 gold, others 50 gold is living rich.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Arguendo]

Artificial scarcity is not a useful concept. Lots of things are "artifically" scarce. Just look at mp3's and money. These are "artifically" scarce because some regulatory body punishes "non-authentic" copies. But the authentic copies still directly represent valuable resources. Indeed, they *can* represent valuable resources precisely because they are artifically scarce.

Virtual property is valuable because of the time required to get it, and we don't tell people how to spend their time anymore (mostly). That's left to Adam Smith's Invisible Hand.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Purity Of Essence]

Let's just say I'm not a fan of video games where spending time doing something simple and repetitive is beneficial.

Yeah, right. And I suppose you don't masturbate either.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Very good points. The root problem here is that while the real world is free to adjust to WoW, the WoW economy is fixed by the protocols built into the game, which contains no AI interface with the real world economy.

I think someone should build a WoW/NYSE interface hack.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Moron's who try to fight Supply and Demand by messing with supply get no pity from me. Where there is enough demand, and supply is not flat impossible, there will be supply. The only way to prevent the sale of in-game artifacts is to make them non-transferable, and that's never going to happen.

Next you'll be telling me that banning alcohol would create a whole generation of moonshiners! And that people will buy drugs even though they're illegal!

Pfft. Such nonsense.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[bunions]

Why are comments pointing out the fact that corporations are entirely motivated by economics always moderated as insightful?

I mean no disrespect to ivan here, but the idea that decisions a large company makes are typically based on risk analysis, balancing potential profit and risk, is not exactly something that anyone should view as insightful.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[maxume]

I guess I could have put it better; repetitive and easy to accomplish. Killing a monster(or whatever, I don't know) that can't hurt me to get some gold is what I was talking about, not trying to get to the next level on tetris.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[slackmaster2000]

Person A wants *something*.

Person B has *something*, or can obtain/create *something*.

Person A pays Person B money in exchange for *something*.

It doesn't matter what that something is. Desirable is desirable. Opening up the database so that anybody could have anything at any time would eliminate all desire and the entire market.

I think you're missing the point that the thread starter essentially made: what is valuable in this situation is time. Given a long enough timeline, you can obtain every item in the game. But we don't have unlimited time, do we? If you want to experience what it's like to possess Item X in the game, then you either have to spend the time to get it, or pay somebody else to get it. Just because *it* doesn't exist in the physical sense, and just because going to get *it* doesn't involve anything but playing a game doesn't invalidate the transaction.

Where things get iffy is when people think that the things they "own" in the game are actually things that they own. Far from it. Once the game is gone, so are all of their wanna-be possessions. They have paid only for the experience of playing, and that is all.

There are plenty of examples in "real life" in which you pay only for an experience.

What I find disturbing about the purchase of virtual items is that it completely removes the "game" from the experience. Paying somebody else to play the boring parts of the game for you is very much like cheating, especially when the gameplay itself is designed to be essentially boring. That is, a person who builds a character to level 60 isn't going to be more powerful in the game than player than a person who buys a character at level 60. Thus we uncover the weakness in all MMORPGs - the payoffs require no skill, they only require time. So you can hop into the Level 60 character you just purchased and take him for a spin and believe that everybody is oh so impressed, and you'll never have to prove yourself worthy. Your strategy and abilities will never be tested in a way that will reveal you as a poser, because very little strategy and skill are required to be considered "good." This style of "gameplay" lends itself directly to cheating, and I really wonder about both the cheaters and non-cheaters alike. These kinds of games are more like watching TV than being challenged - and who the hell wouldn't pay good money to skip the news and go right to the sitcom?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[x_MeRLiN_x]

Being an ex-Neopets player, that is nothing new. eBay doesn't permit anything that copyright holders can rightfully object to and has routinely removed auctions selling Neopoints for years.

eBay policy: http://pages.ebay.co.uk/vero/
Neopets ToS: http://neopets.com/terms.phtml

#5
* requests for money by using your Neopets, Neopoints or any other Neopets property on third party sites or your personal websites (including Ebay) In my opinion, all this really means is that more will be sold on less well-known sites with an arguably higher proliferation of fraud.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[AArmadillo]

Here's an even better solution: spend one hour finding a game that does not require you to work in order to have fun. Then spend the extra two hours actually enjoying playing that game.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful who you call a moron, especially when the evil "extra apostrophe" gremlin has already invaded your machine... The plural of "moron" is "morons", not "moron's". Moron...

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod that one up, we really need to teach people a lesson. Someone always writes a 400 word essay here and "comprimises" it with very moronic mistakes, royally.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

>I can spend 3 hours in the game farming (not doing the fun stuff) to earn 300 gold
>or I can spend 3 hour working extra (or overtime) to make $30.00 and purchase 1000 gold.

This is precisely why I've always been a fan of Game Genies and Codebreakers.
It's a GAME, and time is LIMITED. Doesn't mean I'm going to cheat on the stock market or rob a bank.

Pity these cheat devices have all but died on modern inter-networked consoles.
But when cheating impacts others you have to clamp down.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[AusIV]

You see, someone making their living off producing strictly artificially scarce items is someone not employed producing real scarce items; ie, it is a net loss to the economy as a whole, which means we _all_ get poorer by allowing such abberations to continue.

A large portion of the economy is centered around arguably useless items that are artificially kept rare in order to spike their value. Decorative diamonds are the first thing that come to mind: they are controlled by a few groups and released into the economy in order to keep the values high. Diamonds can actually be man-made for less than the natural ones sell, but people like to spend their money on real diamonds, then wear them around dangling from their ears or around their fingers.

Another example is media. Entertainment is a huge industry. Music and movies can be exchanged at no cost to the producers thanks to p2p networks, but the industry spends tons of money preventing this so that they can be the only source of their easily reproducible products.

The fact that someone spends 20 hours boosting an account just to sell it doesn't do significant harm to the economy. Someone somewhere is working to pay for that account, and they're producing items. They clearly feel that it's worth their money to not have to play the first 20 hours of the game. Then, the person who is selling accounts takes that money and buys other real world items, contributing again to the economy.

Obviously, the economy wouldn't function if everybody decided they wanted to make their living selling WoW accounts, but if everyone decided they were going to make movies or sell music, the economy would be equally non-functional. Fortunately, the economy is pretty good at self correction. There will only be so much demand for account boosting. If so many people try to get into the business that it's not worth anybody's time, some people will stop and go find something more productive to do with their time.

I'd also like to point out that professional athletes get paid millions of dollars a year producing nothing of any tangible value. But people want to watch football just like some people want a rare item in WoW without having to play for it.

In short, if people are willing to pay for something, then it has an economic value. Personally, I think MMORPG games are a complete waste of time and money, but if people are willing to pay for them, they must be filling some want or need.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Xaositecte]

Informative or Insightful as per mods discretion.

Parent took the GP's misconception of how and why economic decisions are made (that is, the idea that what the rep says has anything to do with why the decision was made) - and explained what was likely the real reason this decision was made.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[XnavxeMiyyep]

What is the value of a painting? Who cares? The value is whatever people are willing to pay for it.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[crabpeople]

"real-world money to be exchanged for what is essentially a particularly tedious and inefficient database update."

Sort of like when you put money into or withdraw it from the bank?

All money is virtual man. If you dont believe me, try taking out 10k from your bank account. Odds are they won't even let you.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[tlh1005]

No. It's more like regulating the gambling industry or trading in the market. Regulation won't stop stupidity and corruption 100% of the time, but without it we'd have more than just one Enron. I don't see a problem with individuals selling virtual commodities, but there needs to be some assurance and accountability.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[amRadioHed]

That doesn't make any sense. If the item belongs to the game publisher before you "sell" it on eBay, then it still belongs to them after the sale, so why should they care? If two people see value in pretending to trade something that isn't really theirs, more power to them.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[melikamp]

The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner.

Not only they are being stupid, they have been consistently treating us as if we were stupid. I gave up on eBay after my attempt to sell my WoW account. eBay suspended my eBay account and asked me to agree to their policy (see above). I wrote to them, saying that I am literally selling two character strings, under 20 bytes total (account/password). They are not even copyrightable. My listing was clearly worded to explain that. The response I got from them was along the lines of "That's great; now admit your fault or go f%#k yourself". I went with the latter.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[inviolet]

Moron's who try to fight Supply and Demand by messing with supply get no pity from me. Where there is enough demand, and supply is not flat impossible, there will be supply. The only way to prevent the sale of in-game artifacts is to make them non-transferable, and that's never going to happen.

Well said.

In fact, you've said it so well, there's someone here that I want you to talk to. He's not particularly insightful -- indeed, there are a frightening number of things that he simply hasn't thought about -- but he means well. May I introduce John P. Walters, the current US "drug czar". You two will have so much to talk about!

Re:Just Sell the Time

[maxume]

I would prefer the assurance and accountability come from the company running the game in this case -- the ToS generally state that items cannot be exchanged for real money anyway. They need to provide it any case, people are going to be very wary of spending $$$ on things that the company might decide to give away for free next week. Government regulation about how they run such a market isn't very interesting to me, people can always choose not to play the game and so forth, and I'm not sure what would count for unfair.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[rossdee]

If someone is 'selling their time' or 'providing a service' for real world dollars, thats called 'employment' and the real money gained for that is subject to taxation. (assuming they live in a country/state that has income tax.)

Re:Just Sell the Time

[aldheorte]

"but the idea that decisions a large company makes are typically based on risk analysis, balancing potential profit and risk, is not exactly something that anyone should view as insightful."

The truly ironic thing here is that you are dismissing the original poster for making a comment that you view as so obvious it shouldn't be marked insightful, yet the original comment isn't even valid. That is how a large company works in the theoretical, academic model. In reality, any sufficiently large corporation is governed by petty egos and politics and therefore any particular decision may or may not make any economic sense. Like police, economics is a corrective force, not a preventative one, once group dynamics are considered.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[MysteriousPreacher]

Although burglars are on the supply side of the supply and demand system, it's probably still a good idea to go after them.

I'd like to see both sides tackled in MMO gold selling. The only way to stop it is to make life difficult for the sellers and risky for the buyers.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

And I suppose you don't masturbate either.

Ever since I discovered 4chan I've been leveling up like a madman. I'm already a level 43 pornmeister, but I have to warn you, watch out for traps!

Re:Just Sell the Time

[alshithead]

I am not arguing your points. Several appear to be valid.

"All it would take would be one publisher deciding Ebay was promoting violations and deciding to sue."

Not being an online gamer, I don't know a lot about selling/buying virtual world goods. Are there any sites out there specializing in this type of transaction? Have any been sued successfully? If the TOS prohibits these actions, I would expect the game site to go after the users first. They are the ones that agreed to the TOS. Maybe that's unrealistic. Of course, that means they need to expend the effort, time, and money to look for violations and violators. It might be easier to go after the sites that allow the infractions...kinda like the MPAA and RIAA...but then again, they do both. Someone enlighten me.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[rifter]

. The only way to prevent the sale of in-game artifacts is to make them non-transferable, and that's never going to happen.

Actually that is exactly what is happening. I remember older MMORPGs doingthat with quest items; actually I could swear I've even seen MUDs do it to a certain extent. In any case it's usually called binding or something .. in DDO it's "bind on accquire." You cannot sell or transfer bound items. At least it's better than some games where you can't even drop the things. IN DDO you can destroy them or use them yourself but that is it, and they have been flagging more and more items "bind on accquire" that are quest rewards so you can't trade them.

Your newb gear is bound as well, preventing you from doing the old RPG standby of creating character after character and selling off all their starter gear to get more gold for your real starter character.

DDO does make item transfers easier though for things that are not bound, because they have a mail system. What I like best about that is that I can mail things between alts so my rogue can trade wizard gear to my wizard in return for gear more suitable for rogues, etc etc, without having to find (and trust) a middleman. In any case, while it's too bad I cannot now mail the semirandom quest rewards anymore, at least it serves to give the finger to the chinese gold farmers that spam my in-game mailbox and tells, and that is satisfying enough. Hell with it. Make everything bind on accquire muahahaha! Though then you would not be able to sell the junk items to fuel your shopping habits...

Re:Just Sell the Time

[raehl]

That doesn't make any sense. If the item belongs to the game publisher before you "sell" it on eBay, then it still belongs to them after the sale, so why should they care?

There are a few reasons.

One, they don't want to lose customers who stop playing the game because they feel other people are buying success in the game that they can't afford.

Two, they don't want you selling things from their world when they could be selling those same things and keeping the money for themselves.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[merlin83221]

well for one you cannot do that. ebay has already had a poloicy against power lvling. you cannot sell services on ebay. and this new change isnt surpising. and it is a good thing too kind of. becuase the people selling dont have to actualy give anything to you even the stuff you bought. becuase if they dont all the stuff you can do against them doesnt apply. when you go to use the stuff to protect yourself says they wont apply it to virtual property. also unfortunetly when you buy a game that is supposed to have time on it they dont have to garrenty that either, they usely do but they dont have to. since that time is virtual and you got the card nothing happens. only thing you can really get them at is that they didnt tell you that it was used. this happend to me i got my money back because the seller didnt metion that it was opened and i never knew.
be happy though blizzard at anytime if you had an auction for gold on ebay they could sue you and delete your account. it is in the user agreement that you cannot do that, certain things you can hehe. and trust me blizzard is tightwads. it is really had to get banned in CoX but WoW you can get banned for very little. i mean a guy i know name his character greenthumb, he was an orc, they warned him and changed his names. they have been known to give 1 warning then ban or 2 then ban.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[amRadioHed]

Ohh, I see. That does make sense. It's still silly, but it does make sense.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Hang on a minute...you're getting paid more for working extra hours?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Um... did a mod seriously waste a mod point marking my default "+1 registered" as overrated? Y'all are damned funny.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[drsquare]

Honestly, I'd thought better of them than this...eBay sells so many things of purely subjective value

The issue here is selling things of subjective ownership.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Then may be you play the game for the wrong reason.
If you find yourself having to grind to earn gold to enjoy the game, then it is the game that owns you not the other way around

Re:Just Sell the Time

[name*censored*]

Money isn't "virtual". Bank notes are real, tangible things. The only "virtual" thing about them is that they only have value because everyone agrees that they have a value - otherwise they only have the same value as would their photocopies (except for countries which laminate their money, which would probably increase material value). How does trying to take out 10 grand prove anything? Most people don't even have 10 grand just sitting around in their bank accounts.

[On Topic] This is just like bottled water. 15 years ago, people would have been aghast to hear that you could SELL water at $1/Litre, when it's practically free. Playing a game which is intrinsically hard work is ridiculous; why would people spend so much time "levelling up" in game when they could go out and "level up" on some irl skills that might actually prove useful? Paying for something which exists purely as a concept is the same as charging $20 for a CD - it's ludicrous that demand is enough that you can extort people for something which has a value approaching nothing (as more copies are made), yet supply is artificially restricted. I applaud ebay for discouraging something which goes against the very premise of the game (albeit a flawed premise), regardless of their reasons.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Znork]

"Desirable is desirable. Opening up the database so that anybody could have anything at any time would eliminate all desire and the entire market."

It wouldnt eliminate *desire*, it would eliminate *exclusivity*.

The cost to produce the item in this case is zero, while the actual price is entirely based on the controlled scarcity.

Take an example from the real world; we could create an artificial scarcity on, say, wheat, by saying that only one specific farmer would be allowed to create wheat, and only on his little plot of land. Now, the price on wheat would go through the roof, making (the now exclusive) wheat extremely desireable (and the cost to produce and the end price would diverge wildly). However, as a whole, the population would become much poorer, because the artificial scarcity imposed doesnt fulfill the very fundamental idea of free market economy; to make sure as much as possible is produced to allow as many as possible to have their desire for the produced items fulfilled.

See, the whole point of a functioning economy is to eliminate exclusivity.

As a society, we dont want exclusivity, we want overabundance. (Of course, certain people may want exclusivity, as it is both very profitable (when artificial) and it can make them feel 'special'.)

"I think you're missing the point that the thread starter essentially made: what is valuable in this situation is time."

Oh, I understand the point, it's just that it is only valid within the rules of the game, and the rules of the game do not apply to the real world economy, and vice versa. It's not impossible to create a merged system, it's just not desireable, as the goal of the rules of the game is completely incompatible with the goal of the rules of a real economy.

"Paying somebody else to play the boring parts of the game for you is very much like cheating, especially when the gameplay itself is designed to be essentially boring."

Not only that, it removes the incentive from the game designers to fix the boring parts, which even further damages the 'real' value of the game in the real economy.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Znork]

"Just look at mp3's and money."

mp3's, sure, artificial scarcity does not serve its intended economic purpose in that case. Which is why we're having this huge discussion about copyright reform, in case you hadn't noticed. :)

Money is artificially limited, and that limitation is strictly controlled, as money serves a specific purpose as a means of trade, and needs a specific valuation.

Virtual property could very well be made to serve the same purpose as money, but again, I doubt you'd want that, because then you could forget about Orcs dropping gold, or foraging turning up trade skill materials. Orcs would drop what they got off looting the shopkeepers, and all money in the mmorpg would ultimately be derived from the mmorpg mint, which would trickle through the economy through various exchanges with in-game banks and game to game or real world trade. Basically, end result, your in-game avatar would have to get an in-game job doing outsourced tech-support for real-world companies to finance his adventuring. Woohoo.

"Virtual property is valuable because of the time required to get it"

Current virtual property has no actual value at all. It is priced as a function of desireability and scarcity, and transactions take place at the intersection of that price and the value of the particular (and arbitrary) time it takes someone to obtain the item.

"That's left to Adam Smith's Invisible Hand."

Adam Smith's invisible hand requires a free market to work. An mmorpg isnt a free market economy.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Znork]

"These companies seemed to think it was worth exchanging real-world money (up to $8.00/hour!) for a particularly tedious and inefficient database update."

Now imagine the database company said you had to use an UI that ensured that any single number entry would take you at least 8 hours and that you got paid by the number of entries you entered.

Would you not consider it better for the economy as a whole, were you allowed to use another client that took five seconds per entry to update that database?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[j4ck50n]

Excellent point - its too bad so many just dont get it.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[KDR_11k]

Last I checked eBay does not allow selling services.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[KDR_11k]

Mods use overrated to mod according to their agenda because it doesn't get metamoderated. IMO the overrated mod should result in negative karma immediately (but silently) and be completely abolished some time later (perhaps replaced with "not [insightful/funny/etc]" antimods that undo the respective upmods but can't be applied to posts that haven't been modded that way so downmods would still have to justify themselves with flamebait or troll and get metamodded).

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

You deliberately misspelled "compromises" there, right?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[KDR_11k]

I thought the value is what you can buy with it? Or is that gold useless because noone's selling the stuff you'd really want to spend it on?

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Sage Gaspar]

If the choice is between going to work to earn money in the game or playing the game to earn money in the game and work is the most fun option, the game has failed.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[MayonakaHa]

There's plenty of sites out there that have been very successful in virtual transactions. IGE being one of the most often mentioned since it seems to have a hand in every popular MMO out there. The most I've seen any game publisher do about it is mass banning accounts that are suspicious, ticking off plenty of legit customers whose accounts are banned along with the farming ones. The more successful farming companies also appear to be mostly based in Asia so that could also attribute to their percieved invulnerability.

Really the publishers should be going after users directly since they are the ones who agreed to the TOS in the first place, not eBay. eBay is only acting as a middle man in these cases rather than being the ones holding an account with the actual money on it. But since it seems easier to sue a corporation like eBay for allowing these transactions to take place it's easier for them just to ban those transactions from happening. The RIAA and MPAA also have way more funds to throw away on individual lawsuits.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

It is "insightful" because not a lot of other people rarely think that way. Think about it...If a company cuts services or a feature that seems to be very popular and/or depended upon a lot by the users, they're usually labeled as "stupid", "evil", or "bastards", without thinking about the true motives behind the act however cold or evil it was. Sure it looks obvious to you, but ask people around you about similar "controversial" decisions that businesses made, and people would always gun for the "moral" option instead of the "economic" option without thinking why businesses take said "economic" option.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Arguendo]

I'll respond to this comment for the sake of open discussion, but I don't think we're really talking to each other.

mp3's are quite surely artifically scarce; they're just not as artificially scarce as the content holders would like them to be. If they weren't scarce at all, then we'd all have any copy of any song we wanted for free. As it is, even the illegal downloads require some effort to find the right song and you do take some risk (however minimal) in downloading it at all. But this is besides the point, which is that lots of valuable things are "artifically" scarce.

I'm not sure how you can say that virtual property has no value at all if such virtual property is actually being traded for real value in the real world. So I don't quite understand the point. It seems obvious that the virtual property has actual value and this is what leads to the discussion.

Finally, I have no idea whether an mmorpg is a free market or not, and I don't really care. The point is that the virtual property is sold in the real world and the resources required to obtain it (time) comes from the real world. And the real world here in the U.S. is more free market than not. So people will tend to create value that other people want. If that value is virtual property, I have no problem with it.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Um... did a mod seriously waste a mod point marking my default "+1 registered" as overrated? Y'all are damned funny. Um ... did a mod seriously waste a mod point marking my default "+1 registered" as offtopic? Y'all are damned funny.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Mods use overrated to mod according to their agenda because it doesn't get metamoderated. IMO the overrated mod should result in negative karma immediately (but silently) and be completely abolished some time later (perhaps replaced with "not [insightful/funny/etc]" antimods that undo the respective upmods but can't be applied to posts that haven't been modded that way so downmods would still have to justify themselves with flamebait or troll and get metamodded). That would be entirely too logical.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[gatzke]

People do this to get around scalping rules.

Buy this crappy t-shirt for $1000 and get a free ticket to the superbowl!

Buy this "travel package" at the local crappy hotel for $$$$$ and get a free ticket to the world series.

Technically I think you can't sell tickets in most places above face value, but this service approach seems to work.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[KevMar]

Every thing you do in every game has its costs vs rewards.

The content that is easy to do and is fun, tends not to earn you as much.

The stuff that earns you alot, is either easy to do and not fun. or is hard to do and not fun.

People will give up the fun for short periods of time for larger rewards that they think they will enjoy more later. but in the end, its a never ending cycle.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't sell what you don't have. If the time was already spent, it's not yours to give. I always got a laugh out of auctions that said that.

Now, you could offer your services to get said item or currency..

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Shads]

So... basically ebay is delisting the one non-scammer industry on ebay? lolz.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Sage Gaspar]

Not really, this is an idea that's been around from lazy developers for a while in games but only really crystalized to its fullest in MMOs. What are you supposed to be "earning" by playing the game? The goal is to "earn" fun. There is no reason that you should have to earn your way to the fun by playing through a shitload of stuff that's not fun. Unfortunately it is much easier to just stamp another game in the mold created by all the previous MMOs than thinking up a new convention.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Anonymous Coward]

Time is not refundable for one. And second, if people could get away with selling "time", than people would be using that disclaimer to sell whatever they wanted, ie: "I'm selling the time it took to grow the weed, but the weed comes free", or "the time I spent obtaining this kidney". Be realistic too, who pays 500$ for someones time.

Re:Just Sell the Time

[riceboy50]

would have cottoned to the fact I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the phrase should be "would have caught on to the fact."

Re:Just Sell the Time

[Je112]

Saying you are selling your time is just a joke. If that were allowed than people would list whatever they wanted (kidney, drugs...) and say I'm selling my time it took to acquire this. Its funny to read those disclaimers on people listings too, everyone just seems to copy and paste them from each other and yet they still get removed. Hmmm, I wonder?

How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

Good to see they are pulling virtual goods, how about the real junk coming from China (this has been a real problem, especially with things like musical instruments)

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[CastrTroy]

As long as they are not misrepresenting what they are selling, then I don't see a problem. If I want to pay $100 for someone else to play the first 20 hours of World of Warcraft, so I don't have to play all those low levels, then I should be able to. At the same time, if I get bored with my character, there's no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to sell my character so that somebody else can use it. Who care's if it's not a tangible item. iTunes sells thousands of intangible items everyday, as does every software company that lets you download the product.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

Go check out "gibson les paul guitar" on ebay. They are selling guitars that are complete fakes as genuine. I have heard other horror stories on forums about guitars with thin veneer over chipboard and things like that. Why does ebay allow this?

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[lonechicken]

Good to see they are pulling virtual goods, how about the real junk coming from China (this has been a real problem, especially with things like musical instruments) What are you, my keyboard? That's exactly what I was going to write. I'm not sure if they're scams or just junk. I keep hearing different things. Like some say they don't get anything shipped after they paid. Some people say the stuff turns out to be junk. And then there's the obvious absurdity of a $200 shipping fee for a no reserve guitar that can be won for $1.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[antifoidulus]

I think the counterfeit goods is a great example of how this is all show for ebay. Ebay seems to either lack the will or the ability to really police their site, which is one of the reasons I only use it as a last resort. They seem to go on massive delistings on occasion just to make it look like they care so they won't get sued.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[CastrTroy]

Exactly. Who cares if they are selling virtual goods as long as they aren't misrepresenting them. There's bigger problems on eBay, they shouldn't be going after people who aren't trying to scam others.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Duncan3]

They aren't counterfeit.

They are the real thing, made during the "3rd shift". In other words, they make your widget 8 hours a day for sale in US stores, then run the factory the other 16 hours a day to make your widget for sale everywhere else on the planet.

This is really really old news BTW.

Of course the plans to your widget are available for sale even before they start making them for you, and others start making them too. Maybe that's what you meant? But those are real too, with your plans.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[le0p]

Am I the only one who gets suspicious of an auction that's both cheaper than every other similar item listed and coming from Hong Kong. Personally, I won't buy anything on eBay from outside of the US (If I lived somewhere else, it'd be the same situation). Not that there aren't scammers here, it's just usually easier to tell who they are.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Matilda the Hun]

I'm actually kind of irritated; I got my key for guildwars off of ebay. New key with no characters on it, cheaper than buying it from the store, and I didn't have to wait for a package with a CD just for the sake of having a CD (I had downloaded the client whilst browsing ebay for the key). It was quick, it was easy, and I actually used eBay for the first time in 2 years. And now they're disallowing it. They get the thumbs-down from me for this, imo.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

Your still getting f*cked. Why is this okay?

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Daemonstar]

You wouldn't be saying that if the key you got was invalid or revoked the next day, or something, would you?

If you ran a business where you allowed people to rent (subscription), say, a car (account), then a person started renting that car out or using it as a taxi service (selling account items, i.e.: gold or a sword) out to people and making money off the deal. You'd be pretty pissed, eh? Same thing.

In this scenario, the car (account) isn't there for the person (subscriber) to turn a profit (selling items). The car is contracted (licensed) to you for a specific purpose and not for profit-making.

The players don't "own" the items (if you read, depending on the serivce, you probably don't "own" your account, either) just like the person doesn't own the rented car; therefore, they (shouldn't) have any claim on them for resale.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[pluther]

If you ran a business where you allowed people to rent (subscription), say, a car (account), then a person started renting that car out or using it as a taxi service (selling account items, i.e.: gold or a sword) out to people and making money off the deal. You'd be pretty pissed, eh? Same thing.

I agree that it's essentially the same thing.

I don't agree that there's a problem.

If I'm getting what I consider a fair value for the use of the goods, why would I care what use they were put to?

In fact, this is exactly the business model of many (maybe most?) taxi drivers. They lease the car, and use it as a taxi. So, they pay by the month and charge by the hour. The driver has to take the risk of getting enough passengers every day to make enough money to pay expenses (gas, repairs, insurance, licensing fees, and enough left over to live on). The leasing company only takes the risk of possible default on payments. Works out well for everybody involved.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Barny]

there's no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to sell my character

One thing they point out is that its not YOUR CHARACTER, its never your character, you are paying your little fee each month to use their character in their game.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[EvanED]

What are you, my keyboard? That's exactly what I was going to write

Your keyboard knows what you are going to write? Dude, where do I get me one of those keyboards? ;-)

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[gad_zuki!]

That guy youre paying to 'play for you' isnt actually playing, he's ninja looting. When you 'pay' for that level sixty and every group you get into has some guy who is quiet the whole time and then ninja loots the best item dont complain to blizzard. its not the game that sucks, its you.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Anonymous Coward]

They get the thumbs-down from me for this, imo.

So, do they get the thumbs-down from you or not? (Apologies if you're schizophrenic; I'm in an insensitive clod.)

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[Yert]

Ebay.

Re:How about Chinese Counterfeit goods?

[gordo3000]

I agree you should be allowed, but the big difference is that taxi drivers have quite a few more restrictions put on them in most areas, especially by the person leasing the car to him/her. further, most cab drivers aren't independent, but rather employees of a company that owns the cars.

either way, the contracts states its valid for the cab driver to do what he is doing. the question is does your contract with blizzard, et. all state the same? keep in mind I'm a big fan of things like this. didn't think much of them in school, but now I have no time so I wouldn't mind paying to get to play areas of a game I don't have the time to get to myself(I could never find 3 or 4 hours to do a dungeon or quest with a group, which you have to do if you work your way through most mmorpg's now)

It won't stop gold traders

[tepp]

I doubt it will impact the various virtual economies much, considering that you can go directly to several of the larger farming groups and buy gold direct.

For example, IGE.

If people still want to buy/sell virtual goods, there really isn't any way to prevent them.

Still, I salute Ebay for trying.

Re:It won't stop gold traders

[AusIV]

I don't think eBay is trying to keep people from selling virtual goods, they're just covering their own hide from legal retribution from the people who wrote the game. The argument, as I understand it, is that if I sell you an item from WoW I'm selling you an element of Blizzard's intellectual property. eBay could get in trouble for facilitating violations of IP. I don't think Blizzard would object to the sale of accounts, items, gold, etc. but eBay is playing it safe.

Re:It won't stop gold traders

[louisadkins]

Actually, Blizzard has previously voiced objections to RL $$ being paid for items, gold, accounts, power leveling services.. They went as far as to try and sue a company for this, at one point, and lost. That is why they (Bliz) will tell you they can't shut down the gold seller sites. OTOH, they have, do, and will continue to watch out for farm-bots, hackers, gold sellers (and purchasers.) Generally, if they catch you at such things, you are lucky to get a warning. Usually, they will track the parties and then ban their accounts. If I understand the reasoning, when they lost the case to close down a gold-seller, they clarified that the server that you play on is their private property, and anyone who logs in to the network is held to their rules(Terms of Service that you have to click through to play the game after install and each patch.) It's kind of like going to a public mall; you are still on private property, and if you fail to follow the standards for being there the owner(s) can have you removed/refuse to allow you to return.

Nebulous

[truthsearch]

Given the nebulous nature of ownership in online games...

Don't game creators and server owners place very explicit copyright ownership clauses into their license agreements with users? People obviously break the rules without much thought, but isn't the exact legal ownership already determined in just about every virtual world? Second Life, for example, makes it very clear what the user does and does not own in their online documentation.

Re:Nebulous

[the_greywolf]

No game company, AFAIK, is as clear about their stand on it as Blizzard is with WoW. The EULA specifically states that buying or selling virtual goods with real currency is a bannable offense. They don't enforce it very well, but they do enforce it. No one else, AFAIK, does.

shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[User 956]

The well-known auction site eBay has recently made a policy decision that may throw these assumptions into a different light. Following up on a rumour that's been going around I spoke today with a media representative for the company, who confirmed that eBay is now delisting all auctions for 'virtual artifacts' from the site.

This is insane. There's clearly a market for this activity. And there's clearly a way to handle it legitimately (i.e. IGE). Instead of setting up a parallel site (like eBay motors), they just decide they're not going to handle it at all. Way to serve your investors, ebay.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[Dutch Gun]

Insane? Not really. Ebay is just avoiding what is essentially a grey-market area.

I'd guess the potential costs of litigation far outweigh any profits to be made from allowing these actions. It's not like Ebay is lacking in traffic in other, more legitimate transactions. And yes, before someone makes a snarky comment, I'm aware there are plenty of illegitimate ebayers trafficking in other items. That doesn't affect this decision though.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[faloi]

This is insane. There's clearly a market for this activity. And there's clearly a way to handle it legitimately (i.e. IGE). Instead of setting up a parallel site (like eBay motors), they just decide they're not going to handle it at all. Way to serve your investors, ebay.
 
That's the thing though... IGE isn't legitimate. If a MMORPG publisher finds out you bought gold or items from them, they can ban your account. eBay is protecting their customers.
 
It's either this, or field the "eBay should've have sold this if they knew it could cost me the account that I spent years playing because Blizzard or SOE found out I bought gold."

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[drinkypoo]

This is insane. There's clearly a market for this activity. And there's clearly a way to handle it legitimately (i.e. IGE).

Many if not most games specify in the TOS that you may not exchange game goods for money or vice versa and that to do so is grounds for account termination.

It's not entirely clear that it IS legitimate.

It's also not entirely clear that it is property.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[User 956]

Insane? Not really. Ebay is just avoiding what is essentially a grey-market area.

But rather than try and put any effort or brainpower into making it a white-market area, they just throw their hands up and give up.

Ebay's core mission is to be *the* auction site, for whatever "it" is that you're looking for. It's pretty clear that they feel this marketshare is too much "hassle" for them. Which I guess is fine, some startup will eat their lunch in this area, and ebay will have to fork over a couple billion in a few years to buy them out, in order to remain relevant.

I don't play any of these games, but it's pretty clear this is an issue that's not going away. It's only going to get bigger.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[truthsearch]

Way to serve your investors, ebay.

That's exactly what they're doing. Ebay is by far the biggest lawsuit target for these auctions. Lawsuits over IP can be huge in terms of money and PR. If they felt 100% legally confident they wouldn't have banned the auctions.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[MBGMorden]

Doesn't matter if there's a market for a particular item; you have to look at your gain vs investment and risk. They just decided to leave it alone as the risk outweighs the gain. If there really is a market, a braver company will pop up and support it.

If you'll remember, originally eBay allowed firearms listings on their site. As long as it is handled properly, it's perfectly legal to sell guns in such a manner (www.gunbroker.com and www.auctionarms.com both cater to this), but the number of sheer ignorant people on eBay meant that a lot of these sales WEREN'T getting handled properly (namely, if you sell out of state you have to ship to a dealer first and have the buyer pickup from the dealer so that a background check can be completed). The seller/buyer would still be legally liable for any errors in the transaction, but eBay decided that the possibility of some lawsuit out of left field simply wasn't worth the hassle, and ceded this market segment to competitors who choose to focus on this niche.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[grasshoppa]

Except you aren't buying any properties or gold. You are buying someone else's time to do what you ask them to do.

That's how IGE and most other ingame item sellers make their cash. And it's perfectly legitimate.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[Anonymous Coward]

Ebay's core mission is to be *the* auction site, for whatever "it" is that you're looking for.

This does not mean that they should simply allow anything and everything to be listed with them. I, for one, can personally do without the thousands of bootleg DVDs you'll come across when looking for something legit, for example.

As for them no longer listing gold/items/characters from MMORPGs... good. If you want a high level character, play the goddamned game to get it yourself. For a start, that way you will not entirely suck at playing it. Everyone hates grouping with someone who has no idea about how to play the game because they bought their level 60. (With Burning Crusade, this situation will be a little different, with people buying their 70s.) If you want gold, play the goddamned game to get it.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[JesseMcDonald]

If a MMORPG publisher finds out you bought gold or items from them, they can ban your account.

As they could easily ban your account even if they didn't discover any TOS violation (they have no obligation to let you play), I fail to see how that changes anything.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[geekoid]

That just means it is against the policy, not that it's illegal.

EULA policy does not equal the law.
Sure thay have every right to ban someone for an activity that they don't like, but that doesn't make that activity illegal.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[User 956]

This does not mean that they should simply allow anything and everything to be listed with them. I, for one, can personally do without the thousands of bootleg DVDs you'll come across when looking for something legit, for example.

Except that when you buy in-game items, you're not pirating intellectual property, you're paying for the service of someone going through the effort of collecting those items.

It's not illegal. At worst, it goes against the game rules, but, then technically, so would paying a 12-year-old to grind your characters for you while you're at work.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[Phisbut]

Ebay's core mission is to be *the* auction site, for whatever "it" is that you're looking for.

What if what I'm looking for, what if "it", is cocaine and child porn, should eBay try and be *the* auction site for that? Selling and buying cocaine is not allowed based on your implicit agreement of the law. Selling and buying stuff for which you don't own the intellectual property is not allowed based on your explicit agreement of the EULA. eBay shouldn't stand for either.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[Phisbut]

EULA policy does not equal the law. Sure thay have every right to ban someone for an activity that they don't like, but that doesn't make that activity illegal.

A EULA to which you explicitely agree everytime you log on (unlike a shrink wrap EULA) is a contract. Breaking a contract is illegal.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[MysteriousPreacher]

Except you aren't buying any properties or gold. You are buying someone else's time to do what you ask them to do.

That's how IGE and most other ingame item sellers make their cash. And it's perfectly legitimate.


Cobblers, that argument is tired and over-used. Taking WoW as an example, if you share an account with someone then you are breaking the terms of use (power-leveling is not legitimate). If you buy gold or items then you are buying gold or items - not the time spent by someone to acquire them.

Re:shot in the foot.. and they're to blame

[faloi]

EULA policy does not equal the law. Sure thay have every right to ban someone for an activity that they don't like, but that doesn't make that activity illegal.

I'm not arguing the legality of selling stuff. I would guess that it's either really hard to hold up in court, or not worth the MMORPG publishers time to pursue. I am saying that, in light of the TOS that most MMORPGs require you to agree to in order to play, that it's not legitimate. The poster I was replying to said, in essence, "Hey, this is legitimate!" Essentially, eBay is protecting themselves from customer outrage when people have their accounts banned because of something they thought was legitimate. It violates the Terms of Service, and can cause their service to be terminated.

Can't you just offer real goods + virtual?

[Mustang Matt]

Could I still sell a pencil and include my WoW account with it?

Re:Can't you just offer real goods + virtual?

[Guppy06]

To comply with listing requirements, we are including a non-functioning hard drive with this WoW account.

Re:Can't you just offer real goods + virtual?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the same way you can't sell a pencil and throw in 3 hours of sex, dumbass.

Re:Can't you just offer real goods + virtual?

[JKConsult]

This is often what ticket scalpers to sporting events do. They will have some cheap piece of crap for sale (say, a $1 pennant for [Local Sports Team]) at an exorbitant price, and oh by the way, they'll throw in a ticket to today's game, for a true fan.

Re:Can't you just offer real goods + virtual?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sex would be illegal. What the parent poster is suggesting is not illegal.

What about games that encourage this?

[popo]

There are games (and whatever you want to call "Second Life") that encourage virtual-to-realworld economies. Will eBay differentiate on a per-game basis?

Re:What about games that encourage this?

[BinaryOpty]

Except Second Life supports it through their website and game interface, there's really no need to go to Ebay.

But by definition, they have permission

[Colin Smith]

or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner. How could you hand over an item in a game unless you have that authorisation. The game producers are as close to omnipotent gods as you can get, if they want to stop it, they can.

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[Z0mb1eman]

Explain to me how you reconcile most MMORPGs' terms of service clearly stating that you're not allowed to sell in-game items or gold with "by definition they have permission".

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[Anonymous Coward]

When you pay to play the game, you still do not "own" the character or the items he possesses. They are still the property of blizzard/sony/whoever. Since the characters are stored on the game companies server, they retain the ownership, so when you sell your warcraft gold on ebay, your really selling blizzard's gold. I agree that it's dumb, but just because you spent the time to transfer the gold onto your character, you still dont legally own it.

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[Colin Smith]

How exactly are you selling Blizzard's gold? Is it removed from the server? Is it taken from Blizzard? Don't they still have absolute control of their servers?

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[Colin Smith]

Because you're not selling in game items, or gold. You're selling the service of transferring an item from one in game character to another. At no point do you own anything.

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[GrayNimic]

I sell you the keys to a company truck. That's permissible, right? After all, I had the keys, and since I could hand them to you, clearly I had the company's authorization to do so.

Re:But by definition, they have permission

[Kookus]

Problem is the omnipotent gods have a vested interest in not smiting you (their ~15 dollar/month lunch ticket).

What about domain names?

[bokmann]

Does this mean they are also going to delist auctions for domain names, downloadable software, and other, not-so-game-oriented property that also happens to be virtual?

Re:What about domain names?

[\\]

This was my first thought. Surely we have the right to sell our own domain names, but they are virtual property. So, which is which?

Re:What about domain names?

[Paralizer]

The issue, as I understand it, is the legality aspect.

If you buy a domain name, sure you do not own anything tangible. However, you do own the name. I'm not exactly sure how registrars deal with this, but I do not think they have the ability to just arbitrarily expire your domain prematurely. This example might not be the best since I do not know all the in's and out's of how registration works, but you get the idea.

With video games like World of Warcraft, the items in question "belong" to the company that maintains and operates the servers, in this case Blizzard. Blizzard owns all the data on their servers. As a user, you are granted permission to use their servers and bandwidth. The subscription you buy to play the game is merely allowing you the ability to use the service, not claiming ownership to the data on the servers.

Bottom line is these people are selling virtual items that, while they do in fact "own" it in game, they do not necessarily own the physical manifestation of it. So they are selling what they do not actually have.

I don't really understand why companies like Blizzard have a problem with this. I don't see them losing anything from users swapping around data on their servers for cash. If anything it seems like it strengthens the addiction players have to the game, which should be good for them.

Re:What about domain names?

[Animedude]

The problem is that when there is real money involved, it destroys the game. As soon as people realize that other players buy the "pink pantaloons" item for $50, you will have hundreds of players in game who kill the green stinkworms you have to kill to get that item. All the green stinkworms will be killed the second they spawn in game. No "real" player who just wants to get the pink pantaloons for himself will have a chance at killing those monsters, since the people who are in it for the money will kill him as soon as he even tries to get one of the monsters. Now repeat this scenario for every other interesting item in the game, even pure basic "money" which you might be able to get easily at a few special spots in the game, and you can see how normal players might be annoyed by the situation. This is exactly what happens, and where the big "virtual property" companies like IGE get the game money from which they sell.

Re:What about domain names?

[Endo13]

That's all true, but it's just looking at the symptom, not the cause. The cause, almost invariably, is the game designer creating an artificial shortage of that item, or making the item excessively time-consuming and/or difficult to obtain. If the gameplay required to obtain the item was itself enjoyable enough to be included in something called a game, then most people would be playing for fun, and people farming the item to sell for real money would not be an issue because there would not be enough demand to generate such a situation. Unfortunately, these are tactics nearly all MMO developers use, for the purpose of creating maximum hours required to play through minimal content provided.

Is this a great country or what?

[sfjoe]

Not only can we buy crap we don't need, now we can buy crap that doesn't even exist. Whattacountry!

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[Antique Geekmeister]

I take it you've never bought stock or insurance?

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a great country indeed! Our free speech gives us easy access to your crap!

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[Da3vid]

No, now you -can't- buy the crap that doesn't even exist. And what does this even have to do with "the" country? I do commend you, however, on your successful bait to get some karma.

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[EvanED]

At least that comes with some paper! And stock certificates are often even quite fancy-looking.

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, no, now you can't, atleast not on eBay.
You sound like 80-year-old man who just logged on to the intarnets for the first time.
Leave it to the brilliant mods to give this a +5 instead of -1 Offtopic that it deserves.

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[sfjoe]

Not only can we buy crap we don't need, now we can buy crap that doesn't even exist. Whattacountry!

Man that's weird. I make a smartass remark, thinking it might get modded funny at best and it gets a +4 Insightful.
Obviously my definition of insightful doesn't mesh with others'.

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[g-san]

Considering I earned the money coding something that you can't hold in your hands and I never held that money in my hands or even saw it, I guess it's fitting to spend it on something that doesn't exist!

Re:Is this a great country or what?

[Kookus]

Like body armor for our troops?

Whats the problem?

[FunkyELF]

Why is this a problem?...and secondly who pays for this crap? Honestly, who will spend $50 on a game and $1,000 for gold and stats? I don't play any of these stupid games...I loved that WoW southpark episode.

Re:Whats the problem?

[Cornflake917]

Honestly, who will spend $50 on a game and $1,000 for gold and stats? I don't play any of these stupid games...I loved that WoW southpark episode. People who would rather spend $1000 dollars to get access to a part of a game that normally require thousands of hours of grinding.

Re:Whats the problem?

[UCSCTek]

People who will pay for this crap: 1) Those with MMORPG's as their biggest hobby. I know people that spend thousands on other hobbies that are more...socially mainstream. 2) People with loads of money and/or little time who don't want to bother with the "unfun parts" of the game. 3) Competitive types, who derive insane pleasure from being the only one to have a "Bastard Sword of +10 Virginity", etc.

Re:Whats the problem?

[C0rinthian]

ironically, your handle has 'elf' in it.

I pay my subs for WoW, and that's it. I earn everything ingame myself. But there is definitely a market for this. It's mostly people who have more money than time, and use that money to compensate for lack of time.

And for the record, I loved the South Park WoW episode too.

Re:Whats the problem?

[FunkyELF]

My initials are E.L.F.

Re:Whats the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, who will spend $50 on a game and $1,000 for gold and stats?

The same male virgins who will show up at DragonCon in a Stormtrooper outfit.

HTH.

Re:Whats the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to the guy that bought over $1,000 worth of plat from me in Everquest back in the day, and then emailed me saying his wife saw the credit card bill for the month. I was only a small scale seller doing this in spare time in college. 2 of my guildmates however decided to form their own company and pursue this full time. They invited me to join them but while it may be temporarily lucrative, I didn't exactly love doing it. They make 6 figures at this point and the oldest is 24. If you don't think there is a massive market out for MMO currency, you are sadly mistaken. While this was able to pay for all my living expenses and more in college, it may not be the most stimulating work available.

Re:Whats the problem?

[FunkyELF]

Yeah, that is another discussion all together.

I saw a post a while ago, probably on here, talking about how games have changed and you now need to earn things.
You pay $60 for Grand Turismo and you can only race 3 cars on 2 tracks. Or games where you can only be 3 characters to begin with yet the game has 27 more that you can earn.
I think it is kinda silly, and I don't enjoy those games.
I got my brother Guitar Hero for christmas this year and he can only play a handful of songs out of the box...how dumb.
I know that I don't get a sense of accomplishment by "earning" the right to play more than 3 songs or race more than 3 cars.

In other games, like the Mario series, I think it is fine that you can't play level 2 before you beat level 1, but racing games and Guitar Hero-like games should be fully unlocked out of the box.
Have it so you can't play it on expert before you play it on beginner, that is fine....but unlock all the songs.

Re:Whats the problem?

[jfodale]

In real life, making money can be extremely tedious. You wake up, go to your tedious job, then go home. Rinse, repeat. Chances are, most of the great things in your life don't happen at work, especially if your job sucks.

Imagine if there was some way you could breeze past all those tedious wasted years spent at work and just get more time doing the things you love. Would you jump at that chance?

Re:Whats the problem?

[Cornflake917]

Here are the cheat codes for guitar hero.

Here are the cheat codes for guitar hero II.

They all contain cheats that unlock everything in the game. GameFaqs has all the unlocking content cheats for Gran Turismo and probably any other game that has unlockable content. So really all games come with all the content, if you really want them to.

The problem with WoW is there are no cheat codes (well techinically speaking).

Re:Whats the problem?

[C0rinthian]

and until you pointed that out I was totally unaware, and I still find the irony humorous.

Re:Whats the problem?

[smallja]

Will you make mine +10 Debauchery? Thanks.

Re:Whats the problem?

[SynMonger]

They have that, it's called the lottery.

Re:Whats the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

And RMT is different from the concept of any form of currency how?

Currency has "something to back it up", which is what gives it value, be it:
-effort value
-rarity value
-physical value

Currency = Gold in US Treasury
Game Currency = Time invested to attain said Currency
Paycheck = Time invested to attain said paycheck

How are these really any different?

The only way to completely eliminate RMT Game Economy, is by not having a REAL economy to begin with (IE: Real Life), thus providing nothing to trade for it except the Game economy itself.

Re:Whats the problem?

[SL Baur]

There's thottbot to get clues how to find and solve the quests, but you still have to spend the time to actually go out and do it.

Re:Whats the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's thottbot to get clues how to find and solve the quests, but you still have to spend the time to actually go out and do it.

And let's be fair, you also have to spend the time of 19 to 39 other real people to "actually go out and do it."

Re:Whats the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely! Tell me, good sir, where do I sign?!

Re:Whats the problem?

[thebitch]

Imagine if there was some way you could breeze past all those tedious wasted years spent at work and just get more time doing the things you love. Would you jump at that chance? Yes, if it would not involve breaking law and cheating on other people and getting an unfair advantage over others.

Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[popo]

The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner.

So, can I not sell used books, cd's, artwork or games?

Will eBay be shutting down Half.com?

Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[PingSpike]

...to open up an auction site that caters specifically to these types of transactions.

Re:Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[Bieeanda]

They've existed for years, actually. The thing is, smaller sites that deal openly with 'virtual artifacts' are a lot easier for the game owners to strongarm, and they don't carry the same weight and name recognition as eBay does.

Re:Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[Moofie]

Seems like the strongarming worked pretty well even on eBay.

Re:Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[falcon5768]

good. as a MMO player who has to put up with the asshats who dont know their job and spends 500 dollars on gear they dont know the first thing how to use half the time, it means both less compitition for me from sellers and chinese assholes farming, AND less time I have to waste on a butthead who cant play his job making MY gaming experience less fun because someone threw money at it.

I hope the game companies sued the shit out of any small site that starts up too. And then take out IGE.

Re:Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[Moofie]

Wow. Bitter much?

Guess what. It's not other peoples' responsibility to do things the way you want them done.

Re:Sounds like a ripe opportunity...

[falcon5768]

Guess what. It's not other peoples' responsibility to do things the way you want them done.

acourding to what you agree to in order to play these games, yes it is.

Is eBay that lazy?

[Cornflake917]

The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner. For games such as World of Wacraft which explicity say in the EULA that all characters etc. are property of Blizzard and that the selling of these items break the terms of the license, I can see why you would want to delist them.

What about games that do allow or will allow buying of virtual property? It seems to me that eBay would be shooting themselves in the foot by blindly delisting all virtual items.

On a different topic, now where will I shop for a level 70 blood elf paladin?

Re:Is eBay that lazy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, since the item of character remains the property of Blizzard, attempting to sell it would be fraudulent. If, on the other hand, selling control over/of an item or caracter, that would not be against the EULA, at least not if interpreted in the way you state it.

You won't be shopping for a blood elf on ebay, but maybe someone will offer you a service to level your level 0 blood paladin to level 81 in just a few days.

Re:Is eBay that lazy?

[srvivn21]

On a different topic, now where will I shop for a level 70 blood elf paladin? My guess would be eBay.

Hypothetical situation:

You buy a piece of paper. That piece of paper is imprinted with the account and password (as a "free" bonus), the seller sends said paper through the mail and sends you a confirmation email containing the same information.

You bought a physical object, and got a virtual avatar as a bonus. If the seller "forgets" to physically mail the paper, who's going to complain?

Re:Is eBay that lazy?

[melikamp]

WoW's EULA is a steaming pile of garbage. It is impossible to sell your character in a legal sense of the word, as it is just a file on Blizzard's servers. When you are "selling your character" on eBay, you are selling the service of disclosing your account name and password, neither of which can possibly be licensed by Blizzard. When you are "selling gold", you are selling the service of transferring gold in-game, and for that you have Blizzard's implicit permission.

Lawsuit in the head, Terms of Service to blame.

[Anonymous Coward]

Define legitimate.

By law? Sure, anything's legitimate. I can sell you gold over Slashdot, totally legitimate.

By terms of service? Almost never.

Legally, there's not a damned thing that can be done against eBay were they to not stop offering virtual items/currency sales. Not yet, anyway. (Something makes enough money, it'll be taxed and legislated. No way around it.)

However, one has to consider court costs. Dinky MMOG Designer #32 won't likely be able to much. Imagine how much money eBay's legal department would waste if Sony's horde of lawyers were to raise the banner and go to war.

Not to mention, eBay's getting good will.

World of Warcraft alone has, for some insane reason, several million subscribers. Add 'em all up, you probably have a good twenty million people playing MMOGs of varying sorts. If even a fraction of those are frothing at the mouth zealot types (like you people who boycotted Amazon back in the day, and possibly still do, over the one click patent nonsense).. That's a problem for eBay. :P

Despite what the article states, sales of virtual items is hardly considered 'acceptable', except by people exploiting Chinese workers and the relatively few buyers of such things. (And they are few, compared to player base sizes.)

Alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

So could I create an auction selling the "service" of delivering item X to the winner of the auction? I see many people selling services on ebay...

- Chris

eBay has been doing this for years by request

[Shrubber]

This is only new because eBay is apparently taking the initiative instead of waiting for a company to tell them to do it. Sony Online Entertainment has long made sure that EverQuest auctions were taken down, and although there are always some that get through it was the fact that they did it in the first place that created alternative places to buy characters, gold, items, etc.

The really large operations are already off of eBay so it won't have any effect on the individual games themselves, people who want to buy virtual goods are still going to do it, all eBay will do is force off some of the individuals.

It is still silly, virtual sales help drive the success of MMOGs which is part of the reason why I think more companies haven't gone after these auctions on eBay. They still thrive elsewhere, and help keep customers paying their monthly subscription fees.

Am I the only one who thinks...

[RichPowers]

That a game is fundamentally flawed if players pay others to play the game for them? These auctions wouldn't exist in such large numbers if the leveling process wasn't so damn tedious. But I'm just a curmudgeon who can't understand why 8 million people play WoW :p

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[SatanicPuppy]

Just as easy to say, "Any game that has cheat codes is fundamentally flawed," but it's not any more true there...It doesn't matter how good the game is, there will always be someone who wants to skip to the end.

I don't use cheat codes, and I don't buy stuff off of goldfarming sites, and I don't do it because it ruins the game for me...Kills all the sense of satisfaction from accomplishing things.

But I understand why someone who's played a game up to level 60, and decides he wants to try a second character class would think, "Hmmmm, 10 days of my life, or 500 bucks out of my bank account?" Or likewise, why someone who really enjoys the game but has, you know, a life, would like to be able to compete with the 20-hour-a-day crowd...Can't play the same amount they play, but you've got a job, so what the hell?

Far as I'm concerned, if cheating makes it more enjoyable for them to play the game, more power to 'em. Not like I care because my combination of ethics and life means I can't compete with either the people who cheat, or the people who have no life, and both groups are pretty much equally annoying.

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[t-twisted]

You may not be the only one who thinks that but it's an incorrect assumption. The people buying the playing time of others are not the true target market of the game, they are merely people who have found a way to get "X" out of the game without experiencing "A-W" or having to bother with "Y" and "Z".

It's like the kid at the arcade who sidles up to the best player and pays them money to get the high score on a machine and put the paying kid's initials at the top - there will always be someone willing to pay for being thought the best without being the best. WoW has nothing to do with it, it's just a recent example.

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[Paralizer]

Mod parent up.

You're entirely right, why the hell would anyone do that?

What's the point of even considering to play a game if you're just going to skip right to the end anyhow? That's like buying a movie ticket 2 hours late and walking into the theater to catch the last 10 minutes of the film. Bravo kids.

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[BinaryOpty]

It happens with any and all things: people will pay money for others to do things for them they deem that have no time/patience for. For an example:

Is mowing the lawn fundamentally flawed because people hire others to mow it? These gardeners wouldn't exist in such large numbers if the mowing process wasn't so damn tedious. But I'm just a curmudgeon who can't understand why 8 million people have lawns :p

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[nasch]

Just as easy to say, "Any game that has cheat codes is fundamentally flawed," but it's not any more true there.

Any game that has cheat codes is fundamentally flawed - if the cheat code can be used in multiplayer play. That's why people who operate multiplayer game sites (such as Bungie) take cheating very seriously, because it ruins the experience for everyone else. Buying MMORPG crap is not as bad as true cheating, because AFAICT it doesn't substitute something else for skill but rather for time.

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is mowing the lawn fundamentally flawed because people hire others to mow it?

Fundamentally flawed as an entertainment? Absolutely. That's why World of Lawnmowing was such a huge flop. Yet, somehow, World of Warcraft is a huge success, despite sharing that flaw. That is seriously wierd.

Re:Am I the only one who thinks...

[daBeaf]

Movies have an end. Good MMOs do not. Buying gold for an online game doesn't get you any closer to the end, because there isn't one. What it does do is make the individual's time spent there easier and potentially more enjoyable. It is their entertainment dollars after all, not mine or yours.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[drinkypoo]

So, can I not sell used books, cd's, artwork or games?

Jesus H. Christ, have you never heard of First Sale Doctrine? I assure you that ebay's lawyers have, and will not be advising that they cut out a truly absurd percentage of their revenue over something that is legal. Anyway the two situations are not remotely similar. In the case of a book, cd, artwork, or game, you are selling physical media which contains some data.

In the case of a digital asset, you are selling a promise to make an alteration to a game world. There is no physical good and furthermore there is no intellectual property to transfer! It's not even like you exported an item out of the game world and are transferring the file representing the object. You are trying to sell something that clearly does not belong to you. You are not your character in world of warcraft. That's not even a representation of you. It's more like you've paid a monthly fee to play with someone else's action figures, in their sandbox.

Everyone will go to PlayerAuctions.com

[CrazyJim1]

PlayerAuctions.com has no rules about who gets to list items and who's items get taken down. I used to ebay for about $2,000/month but ebay got mad at me. Apparently only certain people are allowed to list 500 auctions of gold selling, while my modest 5 listings a week got banned. I'm glad no one will be using Ebay anymore. PlayerAuctions.com seem cool and aren't capricious on the ban hammer.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[popo]

RTFA before summoning your god next time.

Yes, I know all about First Sale, but that's not the term of the UA that eBay cited in their decision, which was The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner.

That's nice, but...

[Guppy06]

I'd rather eBay start delisting all those "informational CDs" instead.

So you're a REAL elf?

[Spazoo]

Got it.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[jonnythan]

You must be the owner of the intellectual property *if you are selling intellectual property*.

If you're selling a physical item, you must be the owner of the physical item.

You don't own your WoW character. You own your CDs. You can sell your CDs but not your WoW character.

Done.

playerauctions

[everphilski]

Or go to a real auction website that is aimed (almost) exclusively at gaming 'properties' ... www.playerauctions.com ... its what I've used to sell various accounts when I'm tired of (insert MMO here).

RTFA Yourself.

[Llywelyn]

What is eBay's policy for selling digitally delivered goods and items?

Emphasis mine.

It clearly does not apply to CDs etc because those are not digitally delivered.

Not a fair comparison?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't selling virtual loot in Second Life like selling someone "prayers" or "packets of happiness"? There's no way to produce a tangible or service-like "thing" from this property unless you get someone else to agree to "buy" your happiness packets for something of commonly recognized value, such as money or a service.

Game-based loot generally has little to no value _or function_ outside of the game it's based in--except for the value that people who want it ascribe to it. You can't do much with your WoW items outside of WoW except try to get other people to buy them. They don't feed you or help you to do business, they can't whiten your teeth or maintain your health. A domain name can be used to point people to a server where information can be exchanged or business transacted. By now, it's reasonable to say that people can access the Internet easily enough to interact with the domain name to get to the server; I don't think it's reasonable to say that people can easily get into Second Life in order to interact with its "virtual" property (if, say, someone had something nuts like a virtual storefront in SL). Downloadable software can be used to do work and, in many cases, can be burned to a CD to become "non-virtual" software. Does this mean that we should delist all software, period?

I guess they're not done delisting auctions...

[kodec]

There are still a ton of FFXI gil auctions up. The WoW gold auctions seem to be gone, though - all that's left are 'guides' on how to make gold.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[the Brightside]

The reply brings up the doctrine of first sale because it controls in your specious "slippery slope" example but not the original scenario. The reason first sale does not apply to the sale of virtual goods or characteres is because control of those virtual goods or characters is granted only under a license and not by a bill of sale. That is to say, when you buy World of Warcraft, you buy the physical artifact in the box, but you do not buy what you are logging on to. The characters, world, and all items are still Blizzard's, so you never owned them in the first place, and thus can't re-sell them. You can do that with a CD, or anything else on Half.com, because what you're selling is the physical artifact, and not the rights to reproduce the music on that CD. I'm stumped that you can tell the respondent to RTFA without understanding that your initial "precedent" is irrelevant.

eBay isn't the only web auction venue

[tepples]

Surely we have the right to sell our own domain names, but they are virtual property. So, which is which?

Does Yahoo! Auctions have a domain names section?

X-mass came late for IGE and co

[Jack Sombra]

First off
"Given that eBay is ipso facto declaring virtual goods to be the property of the game makers and not the players who 'earn' them, what does this mean for the future of virtual rights in general?"
Regardless of what ebay "declare", this is and always has been the case.

Everything in a MMO belongs the publisher not the player. They can and will if you give them reason, take it all away without warning and there is nothing you can do about it.

So folks remember that important fact next time you hand over $$$$ for that fancy virtual sword

"I spoke today with a media representative for the company, who confirmed that eBay is now delisting all auctions for 'virtual artifacts' from the site."
They did it before with Everquest, did not work to well then either. Everquest stuff still appeared on ebay just it pretended to be something else. Only thing it really did is encourge other people to set up (unsafer) auction sites for virtual stuff.

Only ones who will really "suffer" from this is the real casual virtual goods seller (aka selling off an account because quiting so forth) as they just won't bother with the extra hassle and virtual goods buyers because without the previously mentioned type the bigger sellers will be able to charge a bit more due to basic supply and demand.

The clear winners will be the "corporate" sellers like IGE

Mod Parent Up

[Khakionion]

Mod the parent comment up, eBay's ignoring their own policy.

"OR authorized to distribute it." The IP owners' code says you can, so you can. No one's hacking when they hand over 5000 gold.

This is a good thing

[Drakin020]

Finally...I am sick of people purchasing stuff online and not working for it. I played EVE Online for the longest of time, and I was sick of selling Isk (EVE Money) all over Ebay. Money on EVE is something you have to work for but people can be lazy and just buy it off Ebay. I am glad they are doing this.

Still not clear.

[WED Fan]

Last time I posted about this, some Virtual Fan Boy, with some Level 38 Condescention Skill took me to task but, here goes:

Why would someone spend good hard cash to get virtual stuff simply for the game play? This follows a question of course, after that Korean chap killed himself with exhaustion after DAYS of nonstop gaming, WHY?

Re:Still not clear.

[Paralizer]

1. Addiction. Contrary to many peoples beliefs, it does exist. I've been addicted to games before, and I've certainly seen other people who have. What I don't understand is how they can let it become so out of control the start paying money, depriving themselves of sleep, and dying. I remember reading about some kid who was playing Quake1 at one of the first Quake conventions, who refused to use the bathroom for so long he explosively defecated at his computer. Please, for the love of god, take a break every once in a while from your games kids.
   
2. Accomplishment. I can only speculate from hearing people talk about games like WoW, that when some quest or section of the game has been finished, they feel like they really did something. Now if they are playing the game for release, or casually, this is all well and good. I play Quake3 every once in a while to vent from frustration and it feels pretty good when I kill that last guy. But in combination with the addiction this is just depressing.
   
3. Boredom. If it's a hobby that you do in moderation, fine. But I don't think many kids really understand moderation, or the effects certain activities have on them if they do not observe it.

Here's what I think happens. Some kid gets bored and decides to try out this new game all his friends tell him is fun. Great, he picks it up as a hobby and has a blast. After a couple days/weeks it develops into an obsession, and after a month full blown addiction. Now if neither he nor anyone around him realizes it's an addiction, then he has a problem. If he is able to see the problem, then he can regulate it my limiting his play time, and there is really no harm at all. Let's say he doesn't and it becomes out of control (as most of these kids seem to be doing), then he beats some aspect of the game, feels good about it, and the whole cycle reiterates until the addiction lasts so long than the boredom overtakes it and they move on to the next game.

Kind of a long post, sorry.

Re:Still not clear.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they haven't got a real life? Everytime I see anything about these places, all I see is that fat guy on the South Park episode with crumbs on his tshirt.

No life = Taking this whole thing seriously = LOOSER

Re:Still not clear.

[Xoltri]

>>Why would someone spend good hard cash to get virtual stuff...?

That is not a valid question, as you can replace 'virtual stuff' in your question with anything depending on the person. I could replace it with 'a manicure' or 'clothes for my pet' or just about anything I am not interested in. My wife would replace it with my arc aaa flashlight for example.

As I have said before I used to run a business of sorts selling virtual items to lots of different people. Most of these people had more money than time, and that's all it really comes down to. They enjoyed playing the game, but didn't have the time to play it, so to get the most out of their time they would pay me to do their dirty work for them.

For example, if they could work in real life for 1 hour and earn enough money to pay for an item that would take them 10 hours of in game time to get, why wouldn't they pay for it? To them the amount of money is insignificant, 50 bucks here or there. But to me, who was efficient at getting what they wanted, it was profitible. My character was geared to do these tasks and my entertainment came out of the profits I was earning.

So the buyer gets what they want, and the seller gets what they want. It really doesn't have anything to do with intellectual property. Just time.

I am no longer in the business anymore, but if I were, many of my 'clients' were repeat customers and towards the end I really wasn't using eBay anyway. In any case, there will be other sites that will fill the void (there already are), so this really doesn't change anything as far as buying and selling virtual items is concerned. The only thing that really changes is eBay won't be profiting from it anymore. And I sure did pay them a lot of fees!

Re:Still not clear.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll try to explain it to you but it's probably pointless.

Lets say it takes me 40 hours of time to farm 2000 gold in WoW. Now, in the real world I make $80 an hour. I can buy 2000 gold for say $280 (the actual amount varies from server to server). Do the math and tell me what's a better use for my time. Not to mention the fact that farming cash in a video game is boring. However, having cash is necessary for getting the best stuff for your characters and when your characters have good stuff it just makes the game much more fun.

People waste money on all sorts of things. What makes this a bigger waste than anything else? I'm just paying for entertainment. Doesn't everyone do that?

Re:Still not clear.

[AeroIllini]

Why would someone spend good hard cash to get virtual stuff simply for the game play?

Why would someone spend good hard cash to pull a lever and watch three wheels with pictures on them spin around and never show three in a row? Why would someone spend good hard cash on alcohol night after night when they know it's ruining their life? Why do people eat more calories in a day than they consume? WHY?

Compulsive behavior does not need a why. You could think of it in terms of stimulus/reward, a la Skinner's pigeons, but usually the reward is not tangible in any way (i.e., "good feelings", or "pleasure center of the brain" for you neurology types).

But my point is that just because you don't understand why someone would do it doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to take advantage of the market opportunity. I don't understand why people go to expensive spas to sit in mud and put cucumbers on their eyes, either, but there is a thriving market for them and plenty of money to be made. Just because I don't want to buy something doesn't mean no one wants to.

If people will buy it, someone will sell it. That's how the market works. eBay is being shortsighted by simply eliminating these auctions, instead of adding more rules that would mitigate the disputes and thus lower eBay's liability cost.

Re:Still not clear.

[jjohn24680]

Why? Why does someone spend $300 for a tennis racket? Why does someone spend $1000 for a set of golf clubs? A tennis racket can be purchased for $50. A set of golf clubs can be purchased for $150. Why spend so much? Buying better items gives you the opportunity to better enjoy what you are trying to do. Yes, if you wanted to, you could sell the tennis racket and the golf club when you get tired of playing. You can also sell your character if you get tired of playing the game. Spending the money is simply an attempt to improve how you play what you play. Some people realize that they can compensate for some of the time they do not have to invest in improvement by purchasing things which will also improve them within their game. Do you look upon the person who purchased the $1000 with ridicule and scorn because they spent $1000 for a set of golf clubs? (I do.)

Re:Still not clear.

[nasch]

Compulsive behavior does not need a why.

People play MMORPGs compulsively. I've never heard of anyone buying MMORPG stuff online compulsively. I think we need another explanation for the phenomenon. :-) Personally, I think it's quite simple. There are benefits to having the stuff, but actually getting it is not fun (for everyone). Once you put those together, it's obvious that somebody would be willing to pay money for the stuff.

Re:Still not clear.

[Johnny00]

Because time = money. If an hour of your time is worth X and it would take you Y hours to get to a point in a game where you feel your having fun, then the cost of playing to that point is Y * X. If I can get to that point by spending less than Y * X, I've SAVED the difference and got to the fun part faster. Its very logical and has worked quite well for me in the MMOs I play. Sure, I'm not popular with those that feel everyone should have to put up with the un-fun part. I'm not playing a game to be popular with people whos time is worth pennies though, I'm not playing a game to be popular with anyone. I'm playing a game to have fun.

Re:Still not clear.

[couchslug]

Simple. They don't find real life rewarding (or lack lifegaming skills), so they crawl into a virtual world where they can be everything they will never be in meatspace.

The game companies make money from them, so I'm fine with anyone else who can turn a buck from their addiction.

Against ToS

[ganiman]

RMT is against the terms of service for just about any MMORPG out there. It's wrong, plain and simple. And if you're the one buying into this, why do you even play? It ruins the economies of the MMORPGs involved and creates drama.

I would think, if this ever went to court, that companies like IGE would lose. As it has been proven before, the virtual items/currency/characters/etc do not belong to the player, they belong to the company running the MMORPG. IGE and companies like it are selling something that does not belong to them in the first place. Isn't that fraud?

Re:Against ToS

[smallja]

Actually, DAoC allows Account Transfers (from the ToS):

E. TRANSFER OF RIGHTS TO YOUR ACCOUNT

You shall be permitted to transfer once to another person eligible to obtain an Account your right to access and use your Account (but not items, characters and attributes of characters separate from the Account), on the following terms and conditions:

etc. with a bunch of requirements (physical transfer of CDs, notify Mythic).

There was a clause that said you couldn't broker the account of another, but eBay wouldn't be a party to that. Since they just enable a legitimate transaction and never take possession of the "object" in question, not sure that it would be an issue.

Sony vs eBay: Already in comic form

[Erioll]

However, one has to consider court costs. Dinky MMOG Designer #32 won't likely be able to much. Imagine how much money eBay's legal department would waste if Sony's horde of lawyers were to raise the banner and go to war. There was a series of comics about this quite some time ago over on GU Comics back in 2001. They are:
Verant vs. eBay and
Verant vs. eBay vs. Sony.

(for those who don't know, Verant was the original developer house for Everquest. Sony owned it (at least most of it, I'm not 100% clear on this), and has since taken over the title entirely under their Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) division)

FFXI Perspective

[ZeroSerenity]

RMT is illegal in XI anyway. But the issue here I think is the fact that people are selling stuff they don't own. Most Terms of Service explicitly state that the owner of your character is the company, not you. Going with the policy of eBay, you technicaly don't have the rights to list the character or money because the company doesn't allow you to.

Re:FFXI Perspective

[Cernst77]

EXCEPT Everquest II's Station Exchange! KUDOS to SOE for implementing this and SHAME on other MMORPG's for rejecting it! I refuse to play another MMORPG where I cannot profit from my game playing, call me greedy, but I don't care, I like selling, and if I cant sell, I wont play these games!

Attention online item and gold buyers!

[DogAlmity]

Yes, you, you people with more money than you know what to do with!

You DON'T need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on nothing!

Here's a link to website with a huge listing of charitable organizations. I promise you that giving 2 grand to help the needy or cure a disease will make you feel better than spending 2 grand on a shiny new level 70 rogue.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

Comprende?

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[geekoid]

It's not nothing to people who do that, they have real value.

Assuming you put a value on your time, which you should.

Think about it, there is this great fun game, but there is one part which isn't so fun.
You can spend 100 hour doing the unfun stuff, and then have fun..or you can spend 80 bucks and have it done for you in a few minutes. Which makes more sense in that scenerio?

Too some people, paying 80 bucks to have 1000s of hours of fun is worth money.

Compared to other forms of entertainment, that's pretty damn cheap.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[orkysoft]

Think about it, there is this great fun game, but there is one part which isn't so fun.

And if that part that isn't so fun is so bad that people are willing to pay other people to play it for them, something's seems wrong to me.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[Anonymous Coward]

To the high and mighty DogAlmity (664209):

One of my guildmates sold his level 60 rogue some time ago. Got almost a thousand bucks for it.

So the guy who bought my guildmates rogue would have spent his money on nothing according to you?

Wrong. My guildmate had an IRL female friend who found out she had cancer. She was unable to meet her deductible. My guildmate sold his extremely well geared rogue, gave her the money to use towards her deductible, and spent time with her that he would have spent playing his rogue.

The guy who bought the rogue spent his money on something that I hope he got enjoyment out of and the money he spent went to a good purpose.

Now go DIAF.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[DogAlmity]

Jesus H. Christ

Did the guy that bought the character know he was contributing money to somebody's cancer treatment?

I'm not saying people shouldn't take advantage of idiots that buy people's characters. I'm just saying that people shouldn't BE idiots and buy these characters.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[moz25]

Advice: stop judging people or call them names. Whatever point you're trying to make, you're not supporting it by being immature about negative responses to a flamebait-ish post.

Exactly *how* are you enticing them to do something good? Calling them idiots if they don't comply? Did you grow up with your parents using that strategy?

Take a course in economics: even with tangible products, a large part of the whole deal is going to be virtual. Your gripe is with consumerism.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[brkello]

I really wish you weren't modded up. Quite franking, it is none of your business how people spend their money. I personally don't spend money on virtual items, but still. We all choose to do things that cost money that we don't have to. We don't have to go out to eat. We don't have to go out to the movies. We can just drink water. We can not have pets. We can stop doing a lot of things that make us enjoy life and give to charities.

But we aren't going to do that...and neither do you DogAlmity. Until you give up all the things you enjoy and give the saving to charity you are a hypocrite. And one of the worst kinds of hypocrites too...one that tells other people how to live their lives.

Re:Attention online item and gold buyers!

[toomz]

That's a good idea. Can I donate my WoW account to a charity and have them sell it?

Good God, people, they're just games!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

With all the strife, despair, and poverty in the world, how about yanking your heads out of your virtual worlds and do something constructive in the real world? I can't believe you're spending this much time and effort on things that really don't matter to 98% of the rest of the world!!!

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[popo]

Ok point taken. IANAL but I was unaware that all the elements of the game (ie: virtual property) were not considered part of that "first sale". To me it seems dangerous because if those elements are part of first sale, then they're overriding it. I would argue that if they're selling you a game in which the acquisition of virtual items is an inherent and inseparable part of the game, then those items are part of the first sale.

Uh, no.

[Dachannien]

would seem to indicate that RMT is now an acceptable part of Massive gaming

Bullshit. SOE and Sigil just opened the servers for Vanguard today, and the EULA/TOS forbids you (not surprisingly) from selling in-game stuff for RL cash. They also have a huge blurb in there where you agree not to sue them if they change things in-game such that your supposed investment tanks in value.

Yup - eBay abdicates yet another market

[maillemaker]

Just like firearms - now you go to www.gunbroker.com for your firearm auctions instead.

STeve

Re:Yup - eBay abdicates yet another market

[OnlineAlias]

Are they going to take PayPal down for dealing in virtual money?

Shirley, you can't be Sirius!

[Anonymous Coward]

"...it is a net loss to the economy as a whole..."
Why? The money does not disappear.
Say some geek pays $20 in real money for "nice girl, young girl" to sell him:

a blow job
a database tag
a secret map to a lost treasure she drew on the back of a cocktail napkin
a hand made sleeping mat
a silk scarf she bought in China

the ONLY difference in economics is her net return per unit of her time.

MODO

[Shadowin]

Magic Online Digital Objects are still listed on Ebay. I didn't rtfa, but how is a modo object any different than something in WoW?

Re:MODO

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't, but the last things WOTC wants in their TRADING card game is people being restricted in how and where they can trade.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[InFire]

You guys seem very naive. Corporations do not have morals - they only care about $$$$$$money and lawsuits. The people that run them are even less likely to have morals than politicians (aka lawyers). In fact the legal system demands ("due diligence") that they do everything legally (moral or immoral) possible to maximize profit and crush any opposition.

eBay has tried several times to shut down Half.com even though they do not have any other venue for selling rare/low turnover items profitably. They only bought it to close down what they viewed as undue competition. They don't care what impact that has on the rest of the world. Look at how they are slowly removing features (like pre-orders) and trickling catalog updates. The goal has not changed.

Money destroys the game?

[roystgnr]

The problem is that when there is real money involved, it destroys the game.

The sort of game you describe came pre-destroyed. As a potential new player, I don't care whether I can't get the "pink pantaloons" because they all went to people with much more disposable income than me, or whether I can't get them just because they all went to people with much more free time than me. If the people with tons of free time are starting to suffer at the hands of the people with tons of free cash, that's just not a problem I can muster up much sympathy for.

Despite spending a few months playing World of Warcraft and a short while on Everquest, I'm not a big fan of these open-ended MMORPGs. If you want to make an open-ended virtual world, that's fantastic - but try to make one so compelling that you don't need to tack on a "Skinner box" of levels and equipment to keep people playing. If you want to make a game instead, that's great too - but make a *game*: one of those things where people compete just by making different decisions and exercising their own skills, not by spending hundreds more hours grinding or hundreds of dollars paying "gold farmers".

As long as I'm living in a world of make-believe: what I'd like to try out is a game where each server was open only an hour or two each day, and the game play was designed to fit between triannual server resets. Hardcore players might still spend half their lives playing (spread among characters on multiple servers) starting from the game's release, but the rest of us would be able to join later, still hop into a level playing field on whatever server was next to reset, and then stay competitive without spending a dozen hours a week to do so.

Re:Money destroys the game?

[mrbobjoe]

As long as I'm living in a world of make-believe: what I'd like to try out is a game where each server was open only an hour or two each day, and the game play was designed to fit between triannual server resets.

The type of game you suggest exists in turn-based occasionally-resetting games such as Archmage (or the clones thereof since its demise), although rather than being open for a limited time, unused turns accrue. The reset mechanism was activated in-game, which I thought was an interesting way to implement it (the greatest power was to initiate the end of the game). I didn't play it for very long but it did seem like a fascinating construct.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[burndive]

So, can I not sell used books, cd's, artwork or games?

No, you can't sell the text in a book, the sound on a CD, the picture on a painting, or the data on game media. These are all the intellectual property of the content creators, and they have "copy" rights granted to them by congress in accordance with the constitution, which are also internationally recognized.

There is also an internationally recognized principle of first sale: if you buy the aforementioned content on media, you can transfer ownership of that media.

Virtual beanie babies?

[haggie]

What about my virtual beanie babies?

I think eBay should just add a disclaimer to "virtual property" sales. Maybe something like this:

"If you are spending real money to buy auction items in a "virtual world" we highly suggest that you spend that money on a.) moving out of your parents basements b.) buying clothes without Star Trek quotes on them c.) shower or bath products d.) all of the above. eBay thanks you and the women that ignore you at bars and clubs also thank you."

Re:Virtual beanie babies?

[haggus71]

I have a major objection to your response. You are assuming in the thank you that they GO to bars and clubs. Those on Second Life don't count.

Virtual items = informational PDF files

[radarsat1]

I hope that they can classify "informational PDF files" as "virtual items" and delist them. Ebay is just plagued with people selling "information" on how to get actual products, hoping someone will basically make a mistake and buy it thinking they are getting the product itself. This has got to stop. It's basically Ebay SPAM.

Re:Virtual items = informational PDF files

[bark]

I think the regulations won't prevent the listing & sale of informational PDF's, as long as the seller actually wrote the information within the PDF.

So no luck.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct those items are not part of first sale. They can't be. You never bought them. You don't own them. Every MMPOG Terms of Service has a clause that states: "You don't own them. The service provider owns them. You are mearly renting time with them."

Software Listings...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not completely sure if this applies, but as a small software company we have been dealing with illegal license keys being sold on eBay and other similar venues for a while now. We are of course aware of piracy, and we accept that a certain amount is inevitable; but when someone is selling licenses to our software online, making money, we don't take this lightly. And eBay doesn't make it easy for us to have such listings removed (usually, no action takes place until long after the auction has ended).

Our solution has simply been to add a note to our software, indicating that any license purchased on eBay is definitely not legit, so the end user realizes this, though this doesn't help the situation much in the end...

If such listings are disallowed from the start, this may help. Sadly, as some users have reported, the licenses they are purchasing are licensed to (for example) "TEAM-DM" or whatever - obviously keys pilfered from usenet and resold on eBay.

So, as a software publisher, I for one am all for disallowing sales of so-called "intellectual property" on eBay. I'm sure the game publishers have something to do with this as well...

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[popo]

Meh.

Terms of service... Contractually agreed to by a mouse click from a 12 year old.

eBay is only creating a multi million dollar opportunity for alternate auction sites... the whole thing's moot.

What other marketplaces are there?

[Bromskloss]

If eBay shuts down all buying and selling of currency such as the Linden dollar (used in Second Life), what other marketplaces are there to do such transactions (apart from the official Lindex thing)? Any ideas?

Yahoo!

[Orig_Club_Soda]

Who's got some auction software? We can site called "Banned from Ebay" and make a killing.

Directory of Virtual Marketplaces

[1sockchuck]

Virtual Economies is an MMO resource site that includes a directory of online marketplaces dealing in real-money trading of virtual assets. It also has links to services that try to track pricing trends.

Lucky for me my hunter was so epic

[boarder]

EBay tried to de-list my auction back in October for the character I played. I put up my fully epic hunter for $375 buyout, and it sold in under 12 hours.

The kicker is that about 6 hours after I got the paypal payment for it, eBay sends me an email saying they have taken my auction down because it violated Blizzard's IP. The auction was already done! Hilarious work, eBay... not only did I get the money for my character, but I didn't have to pay eBay for the auction cost.

The other guy got my account;
I got money for the time I put into the character;
Blizzard got the money for the game CDs and my monthly subscription;
Paypal got their bite out of our transaction;
eBay lost money for the bandwidth, site design and hosting.

Re:Lucky for me my hunter was so epic

[heartless_]

eBay owns Paypal so I have no idea how you think you are receiving your payment when it is in their hands. So either you are fibbing or just truly stupid.

Re:Lucky for me my hunter was so epic

[aldheorte]

"The other guy got my account;
I got money for the time I put into the character;
Blizzard got the money for the game CDs and my monthly subscription;
Paypal got their bite out of our transaction;
eBay lost money for the bandwidth, site design and hosting."

eBay got money from their fully owned subsidiary, Paypal,

Re:Lucky for me my hunter was so epic

[MrWa]

Paypal got their bite out of our transaction;
eBay lost money for the bandwidth, site design and hosting.

eBay owns Paypal...

Re:Lucky for me my hunter was so epic

[boarder]

eBay owns Paypal so I have no idea how you think you are receiving your payment when it is in their hands. So either you are fibbing or just truly stupid.

How about neither.

Do you have any idea how things work in the real world?
Just because a company owns another company, doesn't mean they work together perfectly in sync. You do realize that Fox/Rupert Murdoch put out both The Simpsons and Fox News, but does that mean the Simpsons and Fox News coordinate on all their shows and don't make fun of each other? It's also not like they were even close to on top of things... THEY CLOSED THE AUCTION AFTER IT WAS OVER!

I did get my money (I verified this fact by spending it on a Wii). Paypal is just a method for trading money around, so he sent the account registered with my email address the funding source from his email address. As soon as I got this notification, I transfered the funds to my own bank account.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[UnknownSoldier]

So who *owns* your account?

If its not "legal" to sell it, why not? Who's paying for it?

If its a service, why can't you resell a service?

"autograph" and 50k plat

[Anonymous Coward]

The online sellers will adapt. they'll just sell you a package of value-added goodies, like a rare collector reproduction of the sellers autograph, plus a a free bonus, 50,000 plat.

Sheesh, the DEA can't stop drug commerce with a huge budget and with a fair amount of public opinion support, how the heck does anyone at eBAY expect to stop legal commerce on an issue that almost nobody cares about?

If eBAY really does somehow put a dent in things, then it will just cost eBAY the commissions. So its not in their own best interests to try very hard.

2 things

[OldZombie]

One could this also mean that there will be a service coming from Blizzard to buy and sell things for their game??? like SOE did...would make sense given the rumors that another MMOG is in the offing from the Blizzard studios Also if eBay allows people to sell themselves for dates or "a" date itself for varying cost would that be considered illegal last I checked soliciting companions by paying money was illegal. Coz if thats not illegal then how could me trying to sell 5 hrs of my time playing your account to be able level up your character be considered wrong? The only risk being you giving the user name and password to a person who does that. isn't that service of a different kind?

Re:2 things

[Anonymous Coward]

Blizzard has stated may times they are 100% against selling virtual items. No one should have an advantage in warcraft because they are rich. The asian farming companys work like sweat shops and they should be shutdown. Also account sharing in all its forms is also against warcrafts TOS.

gmail invites

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally they can stop making money off those gmail invitation auctions.

Federal prison for everyone, yay!

[Todamont]

I'm not sure if you are being facetious here, but peoples rights (in the marketplace and otherwise) are de facto not de jure, meaning your rights aren't defined by what the government deems permissible. I'd suggest that a ton of bricks come down on anyone who identifies themselves as an "anti-monopoly regulator", or who thinks that the market and people's property should be in the domain of government control, because it sounds like fascism to me...

Anyhow EBAY's business sense seems to be ok to me. They are worth at least a zillion dollars. I'm sure this is economic, as pointed out before.

someone needs a slap

[crabpeople]

"Comprende?"

This is without a doubt one of the most annoying slashdot trolling templates out there. Donate to charity or you are a greedy degenerate!!!/ How can you talk about new tech when PEOPLES ARE DYING IN KATRINA!!!1/ give laptops to people in africa? how about food you sick fucks! / Why are you socailzing online when you could go down to the homeless shelter and befriend a homeless person YOU DEGENERATE!

This is so fucking anoying for several reasons. 1) The person who posts these lovely messages, probably feels quite the bit self righteous, thinks that they have done their part and almost never follows their own advice. Newsflash: posting to slashdot is in no way as altruistic as you imagine. You are NOT doing your part to help ANYONE. 2) Why are you posting to slashdot when you could be using your time to help the homeless? YOU SICK FUCK! 3) It makes people feel needlessly guilty (maybe thats your point, christian much?) about self indulgence. Im sorry that this offends you, but im spending my money on MYSELF. It is not going to the administrative costs of one of a hundred million different charity's. You cant guilt people into being altruistic. This is the exact OPPOSITE of altruism and charity. 4) What I do with MY money is MY business. Maybe that guy who buys 2k worth of gold does it so that he can haul toys for goodwill on a saturday instead of grinding. Ever think of that you close minded troll?

So to sum up, you are a troll, your trolling template sucks, you suck, and you can take your glorious hoiler-than-thou "look at me" altruism and shove it up your egotisitcal self-righteous ass!

UNDERSTAND?

Re:someone needs a slap

[Oswald]

Source: Jargon File (4.3.1, 29 Jun 2001)

troll 1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT.

2. n. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll." Compare kook.

3. n. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.

Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.

The use of `troll' in either sense is a live metaphor that readily produces elaborations and combining forms. For example, one not infrequently sees the warning "Do not feed the troll" as part of a followup to troll postings.

Re:someone needs a slap

[DogAlmity]

I'm gonna go ahead and throw down a big "go fuck yourself" right back at you. If you see the wisdom in spending two grand on a world of warcraft character then you are too far gone for me to reason with.

I'm no saint, but I know a useless fuck when I see one. And sometimes I see them using daddy's credit card to pwn some n00bs instead of getting a damn job and learning a little about life.

Re:someone needs a slap

[DogAlmity]

If you see spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a world of warcraft character as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, then you were meant to disregard my post, as I was only talking to people with at least as much sense as a bag of hammers. I do apologize.

Re:someone needs a slap

[Oswald]

I'm the one who should apologize for implying your original post was a troll. It never occured to me that you were serious. For God's sake, it was a a farcical rant that ended with "Comprende?" How was I supposed to know?

Magic the Gathering Online

[Is0m0rph]

Ebay must not consider virtual cards from MTGO as virtual auctions there's still tons of them. Even though WoTC owns those Magic cards and just gives the account owner license to use them.

Re:Magic the Gathering Online

[DDLKermit007]

MTGO users own their online cards far more than any monthly MMO service. The real thing you own the cards, there is no monthly leasing fee, and you can actually redeem online cards for the real deal through WoTC. None of those apply to MMOs even slightly.

So what you're saying is...

[Colin Smith]

you are selling a promise to make an alteration to a game world. You're selling a service... Which is completely legal.

Porsches are understandable though.

[b1scuit]

The same reasons people buy $120,000 cars and $4,000 mountain bikes, or drop $2,500 on antique model trains. Which are usually one of these two:

1) The activity they enjoy (driving, mountain biking, playing wow, managing eentsy little train centered communities whilst wearing a conductor's hat and talking to themselves) tend to be more enjoyable with better equipment (which tends to be expensive). I would rather walk than try and navigate a huffy down some of the singletrack I threaded yesterday, it's simple nowhere near as fun compared to my gt.

b) Penis. Pretty much self explanatory, but some people just have to beat the Jones'.

There are lots of other reasons, obsessive collection or an excess of funds and free time, but you get the point I hope.

No one seems to freak out though when people mention those other things. For instance, a $120k porsche is fine, but a video game equivalent is scoffed at, even though they achieve EXACTLY THE SAME END GOAL, which is increased (perceived? does it matter?) enjoyment for the purchaser. Some people just like to slay dragons and shit, but since there's only a few ways to emulate the experience, they do it via the avenues they have. Big shiny toys are big shiny toys sir (miss?), and they tend to be more fun than you know, Kias and Huffies and yes, MMO characters with wimpy swords and crappy gear. It's all just sports equipment. It's all the same. Really.

A sucker born every minute

[haggus71]

At first I thought it was a good idea on ebay's part. On further review, it seems to me that if someone wants to pay real money for items existing only in an imaginary world(sorry, ritualist Neo, but is IS fantasy), as long as they are getting the products they paid for, let them! I mean, it can't be as bad as people paying for 'Pet Rocks' in the early '80s. As long as WOW, Guild Wars and others don't object, it shouldn't be ebay's problem. If WOW and Guild Wars DO object, then the point is moot. Your character is LEASED to you, and these companies do have copyright to all the goddies that go along with the game. If you think you do own them, I know a nice bridge off South Manhattan I'd love to sell you.

Domain names quite similar

[hokeyru]

Domain names are quite similar to virtual world goods. Yet these continue to be sold on ebay. What gives?

Will it be barred from paypal as well?

[mark-t]

Subject line says it all...

Violates the WoW EULA

[Original Replica]

use the Game Client in conjunction with the Service for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only.

That phrase non-commercial entertainment means that you can't engage in RL commerce with Wow stuff, inculding characters or playing for money.

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Game and all copies thereof (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, character inventories, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audio-visual effects, storylines, character likenesses, methods of operation, moral rights, and any related documentation) are owned or licensed by Blizzard.

It's not your property to sell, none of it, not even "your" character.

Re:Violates the WoW EULA

[melikamp]

So, could you point out exactly which part of copyright law I am breaking by disclosing my character's name and my password to a third party?

[...] character names, [...]

They are full of shit. From the U.S. Copyright Office:

Names, titles, and short phrases or expressions are not subject to copyright protection. Even if a name, title, or short phrase is novel or distinctive or if it lends itself to a play on words, it cannot be protected by copyright.

Mind it, the EULA is probably referring to NPCs' names, not PCs' names, as the latter, even if they could be licensed, would "belong" to the players. Moreover, I do not think that I need to abide by EULA if I am not playing WoW.

My gripe with eBay is not about them removing game-related listings; if they would just bloody told me that I cannot sell anything game-related because it's their shop and they set the rules, I would be perfectly satisfied. Instead, they told me that (1) ESA reported my listing as infringing their IP (2) I should apologize (in typing) for infringing ESA's IP if I want my eBay account back (3) ESA refuses to comment on which IP was infringed. Since I did not infringe anyone's IP, I didn't see a reason to apologize. As far as I know, I never violated eBay's policy: I chatted with the reps several times, and not a single one of them could tell me what the violation was. All they knew was that I got tagged by ESA twice, and they have an agreement to remove the tagged listings. But if there is no violation, how is it fair to have my account suspended? Unless, that is, eBay thinks that its customers are morons and treats them like morons, which is my only bloody point in this thread.

Re:Violates the WoW EULA

[Original Replica]

It's not copyright that you are violating. It's that by selling something game related you are engaging in commerce which is prohibited by the EULA. When you accept money, the playing you have to obtain the item or character level becomes commercial activity. The EULA is written so that the only people who can legally make money off of WoW after the purchase, is Blizzard. Trust me, their lawyer got plenty of money to make sure there were no loopholes.

Re:Violates the WoW EULA

[melikamp]

Listen: if I am not using the software, I cannot be violating the EULA. But let us just ignore this inconvenient fact and see what the EULA says anyway:

use the Game Client in conjunction with the Service for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only

So, when I am disclosing my account/password to a third party, am I using the client software or the service? Where is the violation? When I am opening the trade window and transfer 1000g, do I use the WoW client for my commercial transaction, or the WoW service? Don't get me wrong, dude. I like WoW as a game. I am subscribed as of this moment. But one look at their EULA is enough to see it as a steaming pile of garbage that it is. Not only it is probably not enforceable, it just doesn't make any sense!

I'm not selling virtual goods...

[cyberfunkr]

I'm selling this scrap of paper. Now, it just so happens that written on the back of this paper is...

...An account name and password. I wonder if on that account is a level 60 warlock full of gear.

...coordinates inside of a MMORPG and a time. Maybe someone will be giving away uber items at this mystery location.

...coordinates inside of a MMORPG and a time. Maybe someone will be handing out zeny at this mystery location.

See, I'm not using eBay to sell virtual good. I'm using eBay to fuel my own personal ARG

Simple, time equals money

[Shivetya]

and there are many people out there who have a good amount of disposable income.

these same people don't want to waste time farming in some contrived system (ie WOW's overpriced mounts which essentially require grinding) and instead play and experience the world they subscribed too.

See, the game is about adventure and seeing stuff, not killing the same mob and such over and over and over and over and over and over to gain enough gold to see the world. Game designers create this problem because they don't think things through. If you put prices on items that are only obtainable by those who spend their lives online someone will make it their business to give those other people their time back, for a price.

Sorry, but considering some of the auctions I just went a search for versus the time people claim it takes to earn its silly to waste your online time on farming it. For the most part if you have a family which limits time for luxuries like MMORPGs then a few bucks to keep pace with your buddies is nothing. Hell it beats smokes, beer, and drugs, why complain about it. Its their money.

Or is it only acceptable to waste money on widescreen tvs, luxury cars, and mansions?

WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[jbssm]

So now eBay thinks they can rule the world and even put more restrictions than the legal owner of the property?

World of Warcraft End User Licence Agreement Relevant Part (3.B):

3. Ownership.

B. You may permanently transfer all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement to another by physically transferring the original media (e.g., the CD-ROM or DVD you purchased), all original packaging, and all Manuals or other documentation distributed with the Game; provided, however, that you permanently delete all copies and installations of the Game in your possession or control, and that the recipient agrees to the terms of this License Agreement. The transferor (i.e., you), and not Blizzard, agrees to be solely responsible for any taxes, fees, charges, duties, withholdings, assessments, and the like, together with any interest, penalties, and additions imposed in connection with such transfer.

Re:WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[DDLKermit007]

Did you actually read the fucking section? Where in the hell did you make the connection to the accounts or digital goods? Any lawyer would interpret that purely as the physical goods you get when you buy the game and NOTHING else. America is doomed I say due to illiterate people such as yourself. Dumbasses can't even be bothered to read what they are citing. It's to be expected I guess. Politicians & Religious groups do the same crap, and people just go along with it.

Please, do the world a favor, and take at least one reading comprehension class.

Re:WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[jbssm]

1st. Look mister America is doomed because practically everyone that is got something to say there (that includes you as well as your president, lawyers in general and everyone in your courts of law) seems to be a retarded idiot just like you proved you are.

2nd. In a civilized country (like the ones in Europe) noone really cares how your stupid lawyers interpret the EULA, what we care is how the LAW, and that means who makes it (the parliament, not some stupid dictatorial president) and who applies it (the courts of law, not some greedy bastard lawyers) interpret the EULA.

3rd. In such civilized countries, the part that says "You may permanently transfer all of your rights and obligations" is very clear to everyone, and means that you are free to transfer your game and your account cause although that account belongs to Blizzard, it's your right to have it and not be discriminated by Blizzard about the transfer of it, if they shut it down for you the better shut it down for everyone or at least (due to some technical failure) to some big enough group of persons so that it doesn't seems discriminatory, or else it would be Blizzard that would get in trouble.

4th. You go and learn how to read and write, at least in your own language, since unlike you obnoxious people, in here (yes I'm a European) we actually have an education and learn more than just our mother language and how to read the MacDonald's price table.

Re:WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[grimJester]

Any lawyer would interpret that purely as the physical goods you get when you buy the game and NOTHING else.

"permanently transfer all of your rights and obligations under the License Agreement" - A lawyer who thinks rights and obligations are purely physical isn't going to get my money... The relevant right is the following:

1. Grant of a Limited Use License. If you agree to this License Agreement, computer software (hereafter referred to as the "Game Client") will be installed onto your hardware. If your hardware meets the minimum requirements, the installation of the Game Client will enable you to play the Game by accessing your account with the Service (your "Account").

If I transfer this right to someone else, I assume he would be able to use the account that was formerly mine. What's the alternative; would he get a new account?

Full text of the EULA.

Re:WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[Anonymous Coward]

The EULA is for the software.

The Terms of Use is for the account.

From the Terms of Use:

#
Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items.
Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of Accounts. You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Program. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service. Blizzard does not recognize any virtual property transfers executed outside of the Game or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game.

Re:WoW EULA Explicit Allows Transfer of Property

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the EULA for the software and media.

An account has a separate terms of service contract, which makes it clear that the account cannot be transferred.

There's a bigger reason

[BillGatesLoveChild]

eBay is a big, profit-focused company. They don't walk away from money unless there is a reason. Either they've decided it will become a problem in the future, or more likely, it's a problem for them now. That could be the cost and ill-will of complaints for selling virtual items is now making it cost more than they're making out of it. What do you think?

Re:There's a bigger reason

[bmo]

"eBay is a big, profit-focused company. They don't walk away from money unless there is a reason. Either they've decided it will become a problem in the future, or more likely, it's a problem for them now. That could be the cost and ill-will of complaints for selling virtual items is now making it cost more than they're making out of it. What do you think?"

Because if they were really worried about problems like that, they'd crack down on the _actual_ fraud out there instead of making a great show of doing nothing. And it's not like fraud hasn't been pointed out to them. They simply don't care about pissed off customers, because as PT Barnum said, "every crowd has a silver lining."

--
BMO

Re:There's a bigger reason

[BillGatesLoveChild]

It is weird that they'd be getting all high-and-mighty about selling virtual items. As you say, fraud on eBay is rampant! Several friends of mine are "addicted" to it (their words).

One said he bought an 8Gb SD card which turned out to be a 4Gb factory reject (high error rate) with a sticker on it. Another bought a brand laptop advertised as "not-working, suitable for parts". When he got it, not *one* part was salvageable. They had taken broken parts and stuffed them into one case. Even the CPU's didn't match the socket(!) They just crunched and pushed until it hung there. eBay were unmoved. Their 3-month-rule means anything you buy from overseas will be out-of-time when it finally reaches you shores. PayPal only offer you protection until you need it. But I'm sure everyone here has similar stories.

Yes, eBay *are* aware of the fraud and unmoved. None of my friends, despite being burned, have stopped using it. "Must be more careful next time!" So it is weird that they're banning virtual items. Why don't they say "HEY EVERYONE! LOTS OF MONEY THERE! ANSCHE CHUNG! ANSCHE CHUNG! WHOA YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO BE SO RICH!" (upper case deliberate ;-)

Re:There's a bigger reason

[ivan256]

The type of fraud that your anecdotes describe aren't the kind that involve big corporations with million+ dollar legal budgets. Your buddies aren't going to sue eBay because they got ripped off (in fact they can't since they gave that right up when they bid), but some third party game company may sue eBay if their virtual items are sold. It's all about risk... There is no risk involved in screwing an individual.

Re:There's a bigger reason

[Sparr0]

Preface... I buy and sell both real and virtual property on ebay, and moved my Everquest buying an selling (to the tune of USD10k/mo) to PlayerAuctions.com after ebay banned that particular game many years ago.

That said, there is a certain amount of risk in doing any business online. Person-to-person transactions increase the risk. Transactions outside the bounds of the site's protection policies (which are mostly useless, but of measurably non-zero value) like unconfirmable virtual deliveries increase the risk significantly.

There are many ways to decrease the risk. Only do business proportional to someone's feedback, or your own previous experience with them. Use legitimate (read: used by real auction companies) escrow services for large transactions. Follow a site's protection policy requirements to the letter.

And, in closing... if you are waiting 3 months for packages from overseas, you're being scammed AND naive. I have never had a package take more than 2 weeks to get to me from anywhere in the world, including two trips through customs.

Characters/Items MUST be property of the server

[raehl]

I used to run a MUD. I'd hate to think I was obligated to run the MUD *FOREVER* to avoid destroying the players' "property".

Clearly a company running an MMO is allowed to stop providing the service whenever they'd like. Since they have the ability to destroy the property whenever, it must be theirs.

Time vs. $$$

[ChromeAeonium]

Simple. You could spend x amount of time for whatever, or you could pay y dollars for it. Depends on if you place more value on your time or your money (although some would argue time=money). You're likely paying a subscription fee that could very well hit $100/year anyway, so what's another $15 to save yourself 40+ hours of grinding for the whatever? If you've got the money, you might want to save some time and just skip the the higher levels of the game. If you've got too much time on your hands,or don't want to pay extra money for something intangeable, start a character/quest from scratch, and if you think your real life health may be lower than you're in game health, then smash your computer and get some serious phychological help asap, or at least go outside and plant a tree or something.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[DDLKermit007]

Definitely not the end user. Your leasing access to the character & the service. Stop paying for the account and see what happens. You get it taken away from you. Heck, try selling a leased car & see how far you get. It's the same thing pretty much. Only people really bitching about this are the lazy & those farming. Both of which I could a flying crap about. Lazyasses shouldn't bother & farmers need to find a day job.

Legal Baloney from eBay?

[skywire]

If Mr. Durzy really said what is attributed to him (that in reality, eBay is just now following through on its policy on digitally delivered goods that "the seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner"), then he is curiously confused about intellectual property. The point of the policy is to forbid the digital delivery of copyrighted works without the owner's authorization, because such delivery typically involves copying, which, without approval of the copyright owner, is infringement. An example would be my selling downloads of the latest Grisham novel.

Selling virtual ownership of a virtual item such as a gold coin in an online game does not come close to infringing upon the copyright in the image or other representation of the coin. The 'work' of which the coin is an instance or embodiment is not being copied, and the coin remains within the game, under the control (with respect to the real world) of the company hosting the game. Whether Character A within the game acquires it from Character B by running him through with a sword, or by his owner agreeing through eBay with Character B's owner that in exchange for some number of dollars, Character B will meet Character A at a certain virtual location and hand the coin to him, or deposit it with a trusted third character, is irrelevant. The physical (within the game world) transfer of possession of the coin is not a copying (in the real world or the virtual one). And it is not a 'digital distribution' because, as I said before, it is still within the game, and with respect to the real world, it is still in possession of the gaming company.

Re:Legal Baloney from eBay?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot on. It's one thing that 90 % of the commenters here on slashdot don't understand the distinctions between game IP, virtual ownership and services offered, but one would expect a lawyer at an internet company to have some understanding of what he's publically commenting on. One can but gaze in amazement.

One thing I am not clear on regarding the US legal system is whether Blizzard or another game company would have any basis to sue Ebay for allowing the virtual item sales, assuming that the sales are forbidden in a civil contract between the player and the game company. Any ideas on that?

Re:Legal Baloney from eBay?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's more interesting, is that this discussion shows that a large majority of people have a tendency to believe that "intellectual property" actually justifies this kind of control, even though the contested transactions don't involve IP rights at all.

This kind of expansion of IP control is what record industry lawyers have been advocating for years, so it is not so remarkable that another intellectual property lawyer would maintain similar views. One would expect Mr. Durzy's legal statements would be more carefully argued.

It's not "internetworking", it's public-key crypto

[Myria]

Pity these cheat devices have all but died on modern inter-networked consoles.

It's not the internetworking that killed cheat programs for consoles; it's public-key cryptography. All the new consoles use public-key cryptography to ensure that no unlicensed software is possible. No amount of reverse engineering can help you.

Only mathematics has ever been able to stop cheat software. RIP cheat devices 2006.

Re:About time, can we nail IGE to the wall too?

[sethstorm]

I would prefer the assurance and accountability come from the company running the game in this case
Apparently you dont know NCSoft who has only been prodded to finally start dropping the hammer.

Government regulation about how they run such a market isn't very interesting to me, people can always choose not to play the game and so forth, and I'm not sure what would count for unfair.
It's the most evenly applied solution that works well enough to have lobbyists fight against it. It also has that nice knock-on effect that makes alternatives unviable. Write it broadly to remove most cases of circumvention, and reward reporting the violators in.

Nothing like the Iron Hand of Regulation that trumps the "other one" any day of the week.

"item" != "artwork/IP"

[s388]

The item clearly doesn't "belong" to Blizzard or Blizzard artists in any sense that's relevant to the kind of virtual loot transactions in question. When you sell virtual loot, you (in reality) in addition to your own personal in-game character are losing something, and somebody else is gaining it, in fair exchange. As noted by other commentators here, the buying player "gains" the time and effort that somebody else invested in that item, and gains the benefits that the time and effort produced. The game designers gain and lose nothing.

The designers INVESTED nothing in that item IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD-- only the player did. Specifically, the player invested time and effort. The designers invested all sorts of things in the "items" in the real world. They created the artwork, creating the networking code, and much of the medium of the virtual world itself. But none of that is what the ebay buyer is paying for. The item for sale (or service, or time/effort, or whatever you want to call it) shouldn't be confounded with the physical game materials themselves including images and sounds.

When you work in-game to gain an item, you gain the privilege of possessing that item. That privilege is what other people will PAY YOU FOR.

If on the other hand you taking a screenshot of some typical in-game item, then sell that picture as merchandise itself, then it might be more appropriate to say that you're selling somebody else's property. Or if you steal a CD package from the manufacturer and sell it, for example.

Re:"item" != "artwork/IP"

[KDR_11k]

However, it's like trading "property" in any other game, the actual tokens still belong to the host of course but more importantly the other players will be angry. If there was, say, a monopoly tournament and one player offered another real money in exchange for some game asset (estate, game money, whathaveyou) he'd get thrown out. Same here, the game happens in a privately owned venue (Blizzard's server) and they have the house rule that you get thrown out if you use real money to influence other players.

Re:"item" != "artwork/IP"

[MayonakaHa]

You may get thrown out but I don't ever remembered getting notified of a lawsuit from a previous game host because Bob gave me Boardwalk for going to the corner store and getting him a soda.

Re:"item" != "artwork/IP"

[s388]

I wasn't actually talking about Blizzard's decisions, but Ebay's.

It's true that house rules dictate who will get kicked out of the game for certain actions, but that's Blizzard's discussion. That also applies to Ebay's decisions about their users. But it's unrelated to to the idea that Ebay might have stopped virtual-loot transactions because of IP concerns-- which is decidedly idiotic, given what the transaction actually involves.

I don't personally know if Ebay ever said that the ownership was ambiguous, but it came up in the theoretical discussion here.

why this is absolute BS

[ILuvRamen]

If you actually owned an in game item in any online game, that would mean that you could go to their server in person, download the file storing the data about the item onto a USB drive, and take it home. So obviously you don't own the files and can't sell them. But OOPS MMOG companies seem to have forgotten that you own the right to USE the item/character/file. If you didn't, you couldn't play the game at all now could you? And here's where the important distinction comes in and why no court case can ever be won against ppl that sell virtual properties: It's against the company's rules to trade accounts for example, but COMPANIES CAN'T MAKE LAWS! They think they can but they can't. They even pretend like they can but they still can't. All they can do is put in the Terms of Use that they'll punish you if you break their own rules that they made up. And no, that punishment can't be jailtime and can't be a fine unless they prove you damaged them. The most they can do is ban you and delete your account. There's no real law at all being broken. If they make rules about how you can use the virtual property then so be it but that still doesn't make it actually illegal.
Plus as an added bonus, I'll tell you what is illegal. Companies looking at what you did on eBay an banning you for it (only in paid subscription games though). If companies ban you for trading in game currency for real money in a paid subscription based game and it doesn't say anywhere in the EULA that they can ban you for ANY REASON or NO REASON, you can actually sue them and win. That's because companies can't run your life outside the game. They can't legally tell you what you can and can't do when you're not playing. That's against dozens of laws (in the US.) For example, if my friend and I play Runescape and he gave me a ride to school when my car broke down and I gave him a million gp cuz he was so nice, that's wouldn't get me banned. But suddenly if someone was nice enough to give me $10 through an eBay auction and in exchange I traded them 1 million in game currency, that's illegal? Guess again! By banning you without a terms of use or eula stating that they can do it for no reason, they can't actually make their own federal law that says "you cannot do _______ in the real world if it influence the way you trade in game" any more than Walmart can charge you extra because you just bought a new car at the dealership next door. If they ban you for an action you took in the real world outside the game, take them to court and you're rich or at least will end up with your subscription fee back. And in case you think that's BS, I know of at least one person who did it and won 2 years ago.

You mean a click-thru EULA?

[Wolfier]

Providing the tools for people to circumvent contracts (especially click thrus) is legal.

It's a sad day for the society that this needs to be stated.

Services

[umbrellasd]

You can't dictacte that people not sell their services. It's too generic. You have to specifically have a law that prohibits an exchange of money for a particular server: hence the legal issues surrounding prostitution. There has to be a specific statute which says, "You are not allowed to receive money for using your time in this way." EBay cannot dictate that. EBay can however, choose whoever the want to exclude from their site. So, if the issue is, who can EBay shut out of their service: anyone. But if the issue is, can they dictate what you sell to others when it doesn't involve their service, the answer is no. You need state or federal legislation for that.

If selling virtual items becomes a big enough market, EBay will just be shooting themselves in the foot and their tune will change. Bank on it.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[EonBlueTooL]

But you don't own the music on your CD's.

Why wouldn't I just sell a CD that has my account info on it? After all I own the CD with my account info on it even though I don't own the account, and I would be selling a physical object. If you rip the music to your PC would it still be ok (on a legal standpoint) to sell the CD?

Anytime lawyers are involved things get stupid. I think 90% of legal problems could be solved with common sense alone. EULA's and other frivolous agreements should have the sole purpose of giving the company no liability.

Money Laundering?

[FromellaSlob]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this before. "Virtual property" is ideal for money-laundering. Create something from nothing, sell it at whatever price you want to a collaborating partner, who pays with the proceeds of crime. Your money is completely clean - you're just a second life entrepreneur.

Station Exchange, "legal" RMT, profitability, more

[Wubi]

I play on one of EverQuest 2's Station Exchange servers. Let me tell you its a much better market for the sellers than any of the 3rd party selling sites I've been told of. I've spoken with 4 of the chinese farmers (yes they were from china) that have played on my server. They all said they got about 50 cents per platinum lately. They all received different wages however. One was a manager that had decent English skills. He even later started his own farming business. He told me how his boss had trouble making a profit even though he had 30 or so computers going round the clock, two people working 11 hour shifts. This one said the average worker could make about 200 USD a month if they were good at english. The manager himself said he could make 2000 a month, though he may have been boasting at the time. He has not commented on how much he makes now that he has his own business. He still maintains that, with decent English skills, you could make 200 a month being an employee at a farming company. (not selling directly to a reseller like IGE) Workers in his system receive extra money beyond a certain threshold for every platinum they make. Another well spoken farmer said workers for their much smaller company (2 computers, 3 workers and a boss in the US) were being paid about 90 USD a month flat rate, with no bonus for making extra coin. Its rather difficult to read the coin market in EQ2. Recently there seems to have been an exploit/dupe going on, with one entity posting 1000+ platinum daily for perhaps 2-4 weeks, 20-30% below the average market low price. SoE has been cracking down on this apparently, but there still may be some of this activity going on. They are rather tight lipped about what they are doing. However, in spite of a possible dupe, a single platium is worth anywhere from 1 to 1.50 USD or more. I used to be able to do 1p in 1 hour at higher levels. So.. you still aren't making tons of money, but hey, its a game that isn't really geared towards a good economy, with few money sinks and most of the best things being no trade. The interesting thing is, you could potentially make money at low levels. Newbie Island chest farming is still a viable source of coin, as there are still a few transmuters raising skill that can't simply go farm low level monsters for chests, or dont want to take the time to make an alt. Time will tell if those low level items return to worthlessness or maintain a new value due to their usefulness in adornment making. In truth, high level characters are fairly cheap, and you could invest in one and simply go about farming to make up the investment. One of, if not the, best raiding guilds on the bazaar just lost most of its memebers to vanguard, so their characters are probably still for sale on the SE. Not that I really want any competition ;) I love the SE. Its pretty easy to use compared to some auction services I've used for real goods. The transactions are safe so they claim. I don't have to deal with auctions for things not related to the game I play. SoE gets a cut, so they could potentially higher some more staff to improve the game, rather than places like IGE taking a cut that don't really contribute to the overall game, even to the point where they drive some players away with their spam tells and mails. As to offering powerleveling services on eBay... I would hope something that violates the rules set forth by the gaming company would be an issue for eBay. Most games I've played only allow one person to play on a single account. This is a small disadvantage for me, as gold farming companies almost always seem to employ multiple people to use the same account around the clock. At first that seems like a $!5/2 disadvantage, but there is more to it than just the cost of a second account. You have to level up and maintain the second character for instance. In this regard, I would love to see accounts that could intentionally be shared, perhaps for a greater monthly fee to cover bandwidth costs etc. While buying gold is f

Why is eBay doing this?

[Biffa]

I've read alot of posts that seem to say that eBay is doing this because they are trying to protect the rights of the intellectual property owners and so forth. I think the reality is far simpler. eBay is losing money on these listings! There is undoubtedly a higher percentage of fraud on virtual goods. Trying to resolve a dispute must be a nightmare. Imagine trying to contact Blizzard to ask about a specific transfer of a virtual good between two people using their character's names? And these virtual worlds don't come with the rules and regulations that shipping physical goods in the real world do. There are no FedEX tracking numbers and signatures to prove deliveries, no paper trail. Although it is possible, in theory, for these things to exist in a virtual world, why would the maintainers of the virtual world include them especially if their EULA prohibits them in the first place? Scamming runs rampant in an environment like this. It costs money for eBay to pay fraud analysts, and the owners of the virtual worlds have absolutely no obligation to help the analysts resolve these disputes. eBay is simpling losing money, and that's why they are eliminating these listings. If the same thing suddenly started happening with expensive antique clocks, I'm sure eBay would stop listing those as well. (And no one would be going on about how it's unfair to just BUY an antique clock, instead of earning one by waiting 100 years for your own clock to become an antique.)

Re:About time, can we nail IGE to the wall too?

[maxume]

I just don't care if people get screwed buying what is essentially a luxury good -- I see it as a waste of government time for them to intervene.

If someone demonstrated serious social ills that were highly correlated with the fact that a company was operating a market for virtual goods(sort of like casinos tend to have higher local crime rates), I would probably support some regulation.

(In my eyes, that casinos are regulated to only win just a little more than half the time is irrelevant to this -- the house still wins, it just takes longer. Anybody that goes into a casino with the idea that they are going to win is still wrong, at least on average. It would probably be better for society as a whole if the casinos were allowed to cheat, as people would have fewer illusions about winning.)

This also removes a big incentive for cheaters

[toddestan]

It seems that in many MMORPGs, being able to sell virtual goods for real money is a big incentive for people, and this is what motivates a lot of the cheating in terms of item dupes hacked items, botting, etc. By removing the ability for these people to sell their ill gotten virtual goods for real money, hopefully they'll move on and stop wrecking games for the real players.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[Anonymous Coward]

So we bought our cd's for 49.99 what exactly is the monthly fee paying for ?? Its not for my character and the right to use it ?

Hmm what about physical items?

[Nos9]

If I sell a nice laminated card with a level 60 characters account name and password on it, would that be acceptable?
  Or how about a nice certificate of ownership for sent to on to go along with that ?
    I would have just sold a real world physical item (sure my handling fee just went up $.50 for the paper and stamp, but whatever), completely within the rules of eBay.

Re:Station Exchange, "legal" RMT, profitability, m

[Cernst77]

ROFL! Hello from Bazaar.Knuckle + Bazaar.Links - 70 monk 70 fury farming team =P yes more Station Exchange enabled games need to happen, QUICKLY this is a fun way to make an extra buck or two (or four or 50 or 100 ) See you on the Bazaar! oh, and Vanguard sux, because they are not going to allow selling!

Re:Station Exchange, "legal" RMT, profitability, m

[Wubi]

Hey Knuckle. Yeah that post got out of hand quickly. And I didn't preview it, expecting wysiwyg, but oh well. I have thoughts about games I'd like to see come out supporting a RMT service. Is there some general website people flock to about game development ideas? Discussion among players from various games? I'm working on adding that to my puny eq2 links site, but I hate re-inventing the wheel.

Lets hope they fix these dupes/exploits whatever, and prices rebound. I've seen several "Returning to EQ2" posts in the newbie forums lately. I even offer a little help if they choose the bazaar.

For Sale: 3 bedroom ranch in Stormwind (NOT REAL)

[Bushido Hacks]

(To the Slashdot folks: The following post is not real, just like the property in this short but humorous post. Caveat emptor!)

For Sale: 3 bedroom ranch in the human capital city of Stormwind, Azeroth. Two bathrooms, a refinished basement for shelter against the Horde. Good schools, near a keep, and not near the airport so there is pleanty of peace and quiet, except for when the Undead are awaken to bring chaos and misery, but this happens so often, you won't even notice it.
If you are interested, contact Chris.

"How do you stop something that has no life?" -- WoW exec from South Park.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[jonnythan]

Because the account information is intellectual property owned by Blizzard as well. Distributing an unauthorized copy of the account information is just as disallowed by eBay's policy.

Putting the account information doesn't make it suddenly physical property instead of intellectual property any more than sending it via email or a piece of paper does.

Re:Station Exchange, "legal" RMT, profitability, m

[Cernst77]

LOL.. well.. Put up 100 plat just now.. could sell buyout at 135 =/ its money and its money im gonna have fun with this week. use google to search for MMORPG development sites, shouldnt be hard. Goodnight! \camp desktop \camp desktop ZZZZzzzzzZZzZZZZZzzzzz...

Really?

[jotaeleemeese]

Their character, as provided originally to you, has no added value to the game's ecology.

The work and effort one puts in a game adds value to the game itself, and thus makes money to the company that owns the game.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't play at all without agreeing in advance that you understand you do not own the character. Period. Full stop. Not yours.

hahaha,... Idiots!

[DragonDevil]

How intelligent and forward thinking.... 1) The items for sale are not the intellectual property of someone else, they are derivatives of the publically offered game/entertainment property/service and not part of the actual game generated by the developers/publishers. They are the time and effort that someone else has executed in a virtual world much as resources are expended in this world to obtain items that may eventually be sold on the bay. " I am not selling the chainsaw but the ice sculpture items I have crafted with it!!! " Selling a hard to get game console at huge profit may not be pleasing to some people but it is the nature of the business - someone wants, someone sells. 2) If I have discovered a new learning method or way to doing something I do not have to OWN any or all of the components to sell the secrets to my success on the bay. It is the resources I have expended to get there that are soley mine despite the vehicle used to get there. 3) It is not illegal and the bay is just bowing to the pressure of the publishers/developers that miniacally control the in-game the acquisition of these items and who are absolutely furious that someone is cool nuf to provide what is needed. This mindset transcends all aspects of the games and I no longer play any of these titles LOL LOSERS!!!!!!! 4) There has been a concerted effort to waste more and more people's time by arenanet/ncsoft (GW) in making items harder and harder to get. I did not sign on to a game expecting it to be constantly nerfed and would have understood the eula to be typically interpreted as modded only ' as required to prevent bad situations from occuring' - not due to the whim of communist autocrats. To wit we need legislation that contends any publically offered, for sale software can not declare intellectual owneship over those things it is used to generate most especially in the entertainment industry. Do yall see where this is headed?

Re:hahaha,... Idiots!

[DragonDevil]

Oh!! oh!! the cheaters!! the cheaters!! LOL :) Nothing is getting cheated here. If there is too much of somethings - the value will drop. If it is too hard to obtain -the game will fail. So someone farms your game - big deal. If you steadfastly exercise determination and diligence, good for you, but needing to show off this fact, your varnets, or your infinity, it is just as contemptuous as someone that finds a quick way to buy or get. You can not enforce your visions of equality and fairness on the world. What you should be doing is taking a stand against the billions of dollars that is being spent by lobbyists to buy the government. Your freedom is fast becoming an illusion, you are really being cheated there!!! Quit looking for some useless issue to sound intelligent about lol and pcik some good battles if you want to raise that issue.

Second Life has already solved the problem...

[Randym]

From the eBAY TOS:

What type of digital items can I sell? Provided that the item complies with the above policy, all types of digital items can be sold, from songs to recipes to images to written documents. To sell a digital item, the seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner.

[snip /]

Examples of items that sellers are permitted to list on eBay:

* An MP3 file of a song a seller wrote and recorded (and owns all rights to)

* An eBook of recipes created by the seller

* A home-made movie, in which the seller owns all rights

* Computer software created by the seller, in which the seller owns all rights

* Software listed by an authorized software reseller who has online distribution rights

* A digital picture of the Golden Gate bridge taken by the seller

While in Second Life, you may not be able to sell your *character*:

2.4 Account registrations are limited per unique person. Transfers of accounts are generally not permitted.

under Second Life TOS, you can sell what you create:

3.2 You retain copyright and other intellectual property rights with respect to Content you create in Second Life, to the extent that you have such rights under applicable law. However, you must make certain representations and warranties, and provide certain license rights, forbearances and indemnification, to Linden Lab and to other users of Second Life.

Users of the Service can create Content on Linden Lab's servers in various forms. Linden Lab acknowledges and agrees that, subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you will retain any and all applicable copyright and other intellectual property rights with respect to any Content you create using the Service, to the extent you have such rights under applicable law.

Frankly, it is, from a certain standpoint, a libertarian dream come true (well, sort of: all marketplace, no democracy.) However, a) SL content is only useful within the game, and b) there already exists, with the confines of SL itself, a mechanism of exchange, (the Linden), the ability to create and build 'things', the ability to sell things that you create *and* a default computer mechanism to be engaged in the 'marketplace' (free accounts). So there is no reason to go outside the game to engage in commercial exchange.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not selling, it's a use transfer fee.

From the seller's point of view

[tccm]

I am currently a PowerSeller on eBay, selling virtual items (not currency) for a game called Guild Wars. I was (until last week) the second biggest item seller on eBay for this game, and have been for over a year. Although it is just me and my partner operating this business, while still holding full-time jobs, the business is Incorporated in Canada, and a LLC in the US. We pay taxes in both countries on the income generated, and pay a LOT of fees to eBay and Paypal.

Last week, I saw several sellers of Guild Wars items and currency get their items de-listed, and even getting their accounts suspended, for selling these items. Although at this time THERE IS NO PUBLISHED POLICY AGAINST SELLING VIRTUAL IN-GAME ITEMS ON EBAY, I pulled down all my listings until I could get a better idea of what was going on. A few of my items got de-listed after I had pulled them down (??) with a notation that my listing infringed eBay's Copyright Policies, but no further information was provided at the time.

On Saturday night (10pm), another of my self-removed listings was pulled, again with a Copyright Violation notation, and a second notice that they tried to call me and were unable to reach me - which was untrue, as I was home all day and the phone never rang. So I responded and asked what was up, and the responded Sunday midafternoon, stating that they did not try to call me, but quoting from a Policy that I had yet to hear of. Here is what they wrote me:

My name is Mario, and I want to thank you for taking the time to write
to eBay. I will be happy to assist you with your concern about ended
auction.

In review of your account, I can confirm we did not attempt to call
regarding the removal of one of your listings due to the time. We only
contact members by phone between 9am - 9pm local time, and your listing
was removed after 9pm, which meant no call was attempted. This notice
you received was to inform you of the intention. I apologize for any
confusion or inconvenience this may have caused.

WHY YOUR LISTING WAS ENDED:

After careful review of the information you have provided and that of
your account details, your listings were removed because they were found
to be in violation of our Virtual Items policy. Please note that all
associated fees have been credited to your account.

eBay doesn't allow the sale of on-line virtual gaming items, including
game accounts, game characters, game currency, game points or other
similar game items. Although you may have sold similar items in the
past, future listings of such items will not be permitted.

As always, our goal is to keep the eBay marketplace a safe place to buy
and sell. Please understand that continued violations of eBay policies
may result in a range of actions, including listing cancellation, limits
on account privileges, account suspension, forfeit of eBay fees on
cancelled listings, and loss of PowerSeller status.

I encourage you to read the information available on our Help pages
about why we may restrict items from the eBay site. Please visit:

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/downloadable.ht ml

Now this is all well and good, but after 2 full hours of searching, I could not find a "Virtual Items Policy" listed anywhere on the eBay website, nor could I find anything in the announcements board or eBay news items regarding this policy. So this (Monday) morning, I called eBay, and was told that there is in fact a Virtual Items policy, although they have yet to publish it.

Now, every listing I have ever placed on eBay carried a disclaimer, which states that I do not sell items, but rather the time required to acquire them. This is my disclaimer:

"All items in "Guild Wars" are the property of NCsoft Entertainment Inc. This auction is not for the ownership of intellectual property owned by NCsoft Entertainment Inc. but for the time and effo

Re:From the seller's point of view

[Anonymous Coward]

They'd have to be hopelessly stupid to buy into that disclaimer.

Re:Dangerous Precedent. How about CD sales?

[BarryJacobsen]

farmers need to find a day job

Umm...you do realize that for most farmers that IS their day job. And to them, it's generally much more work than fun (hence why others are willing to pay to have it done).

Reality check: if people in a 3rd world country are making a living (when normally they would not have a job at all) by farming gold for people with SO MUCH MONEY that they would pay people to play an unsavory aspect of a game - WHO LOSES? The people making a living where they normally wouldn't? The people who get more enjoyment out of their gaming time by paying people? The only people that lose are the people that feel that accomplishing something in a GAME means something. Those are the people I couldn't give a flying crap about.

Work is what makes games fun

[babbling]

Work is what makes games fun. The player invests time and energy, and then the game (if it's a good one) will reward the player. Doing something and being rewarded for it is fun.

Re:Work is what makes games fun

[Sage Gaspar]

The question is if the work is becoming more skilled in some way or if the work is menial repetition. There's a difference between having better coordination, situational reflexes, and strategic sense... and performing menial tasks for your MMO Skinner box and getting a virtual treat.

Re: Casinos

[Nek0jin]

Actually, the regulations on Las Vegas casinos state that no game in a casino may have more than a 25% house edge. Very few games even get that high, and most of those are referred to as, "side action," games (the Big 6 Wheel, Chuck-a-Luck, and so on). One of the few popular games in a casino that gets close to the 25% limit is Keno... and some slot machines.

For example, Blackjack's house edge with perfect play, not including card-counting, is just under 1%. Very few players are that good, however. The average player makes enough mistakes to get around a 10% house edge, and rather a lot of particularly stupid players can have 20% to 30% (or even higher) - but that's not the fault of the casino or the game, so it's fair play.