Slashdot Mirror
Where the PS3 Stands Now
Phil Harrison and 1up's Luke Smith had a chat about the current positioning of the PlayStation 3, and it makes for some interesting reading. A quietly confident Harrison discusses the future of game distribution online, their attitude towards competition in the console market, and clarifies a few things about the potential for PS3 price cuts. The previous discussion about price cuts was apparently a big misunderstanding. "PH: Well, do you know what [Takao Yuhara] said was, cost reduction, not price drop, and there's a big difference between cost reduction and price drop. So, that I believe is where the confusion came from. Obviously, we are investing our money in making PlayStation 3s cheaper to manufacture -- that's part of our business plan. 1UP: You're not going to pass the savings along? PH: When we can, when there are savings to pass along to the consumer, we would obviously choose to do that. That's the business model. 1UP: Wait? You guys are doing this to make money? Really? PH: That's videogame hardware 101."
In the display cases of your local department stores.
PH: That's videogame hardware 101."
I guess Nintendo was the only one to actually pass that class.
zzz...Is it under $100 yet? No? Wake me up in a couple years, then...zzz
Damn, Sony sure had me fooled...
... lack of killer system selling game or games. It has to be said if the games were there even the high price would not be such a barrier of there really was a killer app that made people throw their financial reason to the wind.
On the shelves ! What do I win ?
Rock solid defect free hardware - compared to the nightmare failure rate Microsoft still has going on with the 360.
5 7
Absolutely silent operation - bravo Sony engineering!
BluRay has won the format war with only a couple months after the PS3 release BluRay already outselling the dying HD-DVD format 3-1. And one of the remaining HD-DVD studios just jumped ship to BluRay today. Pretty much all that remains is for Universal to throw in the towel.
PS3 has the top selling game in Japan now - Japan will be a fierce battle between Sony and Nintendo. Nintendo really needs to work on their release schedule. Wii owners are getting restless as the novelty of games like Wii Sports is wearing off.
Resistance is blowing people away with its 40 player lagfree and rock solid framerate games right now.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1406
Early previews are going gaga over Motorstorm with another online win for Sony with another completely lagfree game.
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1103341
The Playstation Network is cranking out all sorts of very cool indy games like Flow and GripShift and we are only a couple months into adding content.
The one issue with HD tvs and PS2/PS1 games has been fixed and PS3 owners have rock solid 99 percent backwards compatibility with the giant library of PS2 and PS1 games.
Virtua Fighter just about to hit the shelves.
GDC sounds like Sony is going to have some pretty big announcements with even more PS3 exclusive games and other previews.
Europe is going nuts with PS3 fever with record pre-orders for the system. Not surprising with the absolutely insane list of launch games.
No wonder the PS3 is nowhere to be found online or in stores. What a fucking awesome time to be a Playstation owner. Then again, when has that ever not been the case.
"We have a hard drive, we have a commerce engine, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out we will have that on the network very shortly."
Define "very shortly". The PSP was supposed to have this functionality for music over a *year* ago. It's been delayed so many times that I think people have largely forgotten about it. Sony was always talking about being able to use Sony Connect to purchase music and possibly videos on/for the PSP (in order to posture the PSP as a competitor to the iPod), but that clearly has not yet taken place. Why should the PS3 be any different?
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Sony is selling the PS/3 at a loss. I've seen estimates as high as $300 (loss) per unit. Clearly their strategy is to get the manufacturing cost down ASAP and recover some of the loss via higher game royalty payments. They MAY even be limiting production - at least till they can further lower manufacturing costs.
A risky strategy, when you consider the deep pockets of Microsoft (also selling their console at a loss), and that Nintendo is actually making a profit on their consoles. But it's still early in the cycle for this generation of consoles. Personally, I'm cheering for Nintendo. But it's MUCH to early to count Sony out of the game.
[Insert pithy quote here]
The guy is doing a brilliant impression of an over-the-top fanboy.
I mean, I thought he was serious until the last line, and then he kinda gives it away "no wonder the PS3 is nowhere to be found".
I mean, other than every BJ's, Target, BestBuy, Circuit City, and Walmart, he's right. I mean, like dead-on right.
The problem is 50% perception, and 50% targeted market. Here's what I mean:
"Perception": People see 600 - 800 dollars and no games. They see a huge Sony ego and laughable selling numbers. No one's buying it, no one wants one.
Reality: It can be bought here in the US for as little as 499 if you want the 20GB model, and if you're patient by summer we'll have a healthy injection of new games on the PS3. They even have more demos and movie trailers available in the PS3 network for free. Games are coming, and patience is key. I'm not an apologist. This is just how new consoles tend to work.
As for the ego, it's there. But it's not contempt for consumers, as most detractors would have you believe. It's confidence. They're saying, "we're number 1". Sony needs to be seen as confident in this console outing. You want them to say "Yeah it sucks, get an Xbox?"
The price is out of necessity, not arrogance. They're definitely losing more per console than Microsoft. Blu-ray was a risk, but not a totally harmful one. Prices will come down and the complaining will slowly go away
"Target market" is the other aspect that's hurting the PS3.
Not only do people not want to drop 500-600-800 dollars on a game system, they certainly don't want to pay more for the same games. That's the problem most 360 owners see with the PS3. They can't envy it any. Pay tons more for some future exclusives? Laughable.
The PS3 is for people who want blu-ray, PS3, PS2, and don't have a 360 already, and are willing to spend at least 500 bucks for it, probably more. That's not a great subset of people.
With all of that, it's a testimony to the power of Sony and its future exclusives that so many people are buying the thing.
| - | - |
It's a really good time to be Nintendo, with the only "affordable" (everyone has a different definition of that word, I'm looking at it from a casual persons concept of "what I'd pay for a video game console") system out there. 360 is a little more tenable, but still sort of in the "hardcore" price range.
With no HDTV, there's no compelling reason at this point to own either PS3 or 360. Eventually they'll have some more (and some *subjective word* good) exclusive titles, but as it is, almost everything is available for regular Xbox or PS2. So far I've yet to be blown away by any next-gen games, and here I sit with a Wii, and a 360, and really no games out there asking me to buy them. I have twilight princess and dead rising, respectively.
It'll be a slower growth this time around. People aren't all that stupid, they know that despite all the techno-specs, they see the PS2/Xbox doing pretty much the same thing with pretty much the same controller. Developers don't necessarily want to jump onto 360/PS3, because the installed base of Xbox/PS2s is so large, there's much less room for profit.
Also, interviews with MSFT and Sony reps are boring. They don't make video games, they just sell hardware.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
...they might want to, I dunno, put it in a commercial or something? And, c'mon mods... flamebait? Seriously, there needs to be an IQ test before someone gets mod points.
The PS3 60GB model has an amazing sales rank of 58
Why is that amazing? Because Amazon does not carry the PS3 (except in short bursts where it sells out in minutes). The only ones you can buy are from third party sellers through Amazon for $720 or more (that's over $100 above list).
So while you can find them in some stores, the PS3 must be doing something right if people are willing to pay $100 above retail to get them through Amazon.
If Sony can raise production to the point where Amazon can list them for 24 hour shipping, then I think we'll see sales rise - also the release of Motorstorm should be another notch up in sales.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sony Execs say some hilarious things sometimes.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/10
Virtual Fighter was #1 in japan last week. Landing with a thud?
r e-sales-week-ending-02-11-07/
You should research a little before making patently FALSE statements.
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/02/15/japanese-softwa
One wonders why you care so much about all the consoles doing OK?
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/12/ 2016222&threshold=1
I think he was referring to the above slashdot article, basically in the last couple of months more blue-ray films have been released compared to HD-DVD, meaning there are now more Blue-ray films, which surprisingly means that more people bought Blue_ray disks over a month. To be honest I do think Blue_ray is going to win the format war since HD-DVD has had such a head start but doesn't seem to have much if any lead on Blue Ray.
Still hedging my bets tho
So while you can find them in some stores, the PS3 must be doing something right if people are willing to pay $100 above retail to get them through Amazon.
...
Of course, Amazon ships to countries where they won't let you buy a PS3 at retail yet
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I'm not sure where the PS3 stands but my Wii stands right beside my TV...
Bite my shiny metal ass.
Patently false? People thought the sales numbers would be easily double that. There are 360 titles *besides* Blue Dragon which sold better. Blockbuster games in Japan usually land with at least 200K in sales in the first work. To fail to break 50K is very telling. And again - it barely edged out Wii Sports, which has been available for over two months.
So, I really don't want to buy a PS3, and I'm not impressed with the system really at all. I'm really happy whenever something bad happens to Sony because, They Are Dicks. This is fact.
But, I have no delusions that the PS3 will not be amazingly successful. Because the PS3 has two franchises that the 360, currently, does not (So, I'll put in my disclaimer that if exclusivity is broken, my post is moot): Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy. It doesn't matter if we hate Sony. It doesn't matter if its over priced. It doesn't matter that they are dicks, which they are by the way. And it doesn't matter if we all want them to fail. When those franchises come out with their latest version, and people see that those latest versions are amazing and awesome and stupendous and the greatest of the series blah blah blah, they will buy. I wish they wouldn't, but they will. If the 360 has 20 million and the Wii has 20 million in households, people will still buy.
And you know what the -worst- part of it all is?
So will you. So will I.
A bit of context:
I'm a long term Sega fan, and when I first moved to Tokyo 12 years ago spent up to 3 hours a night in my local arcade playing Virtua Fighter 2, Fighting Vipers, and Virtua On Oratorio Tangram, and played all three in competition.
The release of the Dreamcast meant that I got to get the "arcade experience" at home, Soul Calibur with the official Sega arcade controller, and Virtua On with the Twin Stick controller was the best an arcade gamer could could buy.
Until now:)
----
Yesterday the first of the games I bought my PS3 for turned up, Virtua Fighter 5 and the Sega arcade controller.
The controller is simply amazing, cost a fortune but an hour after unpacking it I was online ordering a second! It's currently sitting next to my Dreamcast official arcade controller which , well, looks a little tired.
The game is purely for fight game fans, nothing here for the mass market, but for anyone who spent hours in an arcade playing the various Virtua Fighters it is an absolute must have.
I don't want to even think about much a HDTV, PS3, and controller cost but I'm happy so it was money well spent:)
Forget the console wars, if you are a arcade fight game fan, you need this game, the Tekken download, two Sega controllers, and a PS3. Sell blood if you have to, but get it.
The Playstation 2 is still available for sale, costs about $130 brand new, and if titles like Guitar Hero II are any indication, the console is far from dead yet.
Actually, my son picked up one on sale this past summer for $100 brand new. And Guitar Hero III is coming out for the Wii.
He's dead, Jim.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The "Thud" comment is (reasonably) justified ... According to VGCharts.org Virtual Fiter 5 sold 49,500 in it's first week
... ... ...
... Another way to look at it is that Virtual Fighter 4 sold 367,500 in its first week. At this pace Sega will be lucky if Virtual Fighter 5 sells 100,000 to 200,000 copies in it's lifetime.
Last week Lets Make a J-League Pro Soccer Club 5 sold 108,250 and Harvest Moon: The Island I Grew Up On sold 81,000 in their first week
The week before Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas sold 220,750 and Romance of the Three Kingdoms Wars DS sold 81,750 in their first week
And the week before that hack G.U. Vol. 3 sold 132,750 and Wario: Master of Disguise sold 94,000 in their first week
These are very 'average' games in Japan selling 2 to 4 times as much as Virtual Fighter 5 did
Having followed the Japanese sales charts for the last 7-8 months(via http://www.m-create.com/jpn/s_ranking.html - tracking units sold, not units shipped), Nintendo has Absolutely Dominated the charts. Outside of maybe 2-3 titles, no Sony or XBox system game has sat in the top ten beyond its initial launch week, and only getting that far if its a highly anticipated title such as a Final Fantasy or Gundam or one of the number of non-USfootball/basketball sports titles that they seem to enjoy. By and large this has been thanks to the DS, with Wii getting in on the action now too. for fun, here's the system sales for 1/29-2/4: DSL 146,073 Wii 65,740 PSP 31,216 PS3 18,727 PS2 17,540 Xbox360 6,130 GBM 1,050 GBASP 724 GC 306 DS 119 GBA 28 Clearly Sony's better off than MS and the DS Lite eats everything, but we all knew that already. Worth noting though is that the Wii sold almost as much as all three Sony platforms combined, and the week prior it sold slightly more, with limited availablity seeming to be the only thing keeping it even close. On the software side, the only PS3 title on the list is Enchanted Arms @ 47th
Next you'll be extolling the virtues of K-Mart.
The problem with the PS3 is that after all this time it still doesn't really seem to be quite finished. Currently, games do not automatically support both of the major HD resolutions, 1080i and 720p (never mind 1080p). Most games will output only in 720p, relying upon the 1080i/p TVs to do a decent job of scaling. Some HDTVs have poor scalers, whereas others (primarily CRT-based monitors) will only accept a 1080i signal and are incapable of displaying a 720p signal at all, in which case they are limited to playing PS3 games in 480p (ED rather than HD). Early expectations that Sony would be able to correct this problem with a software update have not been realized. A recent software update seems to offer the potential for games to support a kind of kluged version of 1080i with reduced horizontal resolution, but this would have to be supported by additional coding in the games themselves, and does not help existing games. PS3 Blu-Ray movies, on the other hand, output only at 1080i/p, requiring 720p HDTVs (the vast majority of flat panel HDTVs) to do their own scaling. Again, not all do a good job of this. In contrast, the XBox360 seamlessly handles any standard output resolution from 480i to 1080p (although it has only component output, and most 1080p TVs will accept that resolution only over DVI).
This is an amazing deficiency. For example, there are a variety of scaling DVD players that are capable of scaling conventional DVDs to any output resolution, including 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (and even one or two that will go to 1080p). Essentially all HD capable set-top cable and satellite adaptors and PVRs have this capability. So do stand-alone HDDVD and Blu-Ray players. The XBox 360-associated HDDVD player will output at either 720p, 1080i, or 1080p, although it does not upconvert standard DVDs.
Another surprising omission is the lack of an infrared port. Sure, the PS3 uses RF for its controller (and its optional DVD remote). But at least Microsoft uses RF control as well, but they saw fit to provide the XBox 360 with an infrared port, making it compatible with widely used universal IR remotes.
Even from gamestop, it takes up to 72 hours processing time to get a PS3 - so if you want one in 24, Amazon is your only choice. The fact that processing time from Gamestop (which normally ships the same day) is yet another indication that my basic point holds true - the PS3 is more popular than people seem to think.
I am not passing judgment on the wisdom of people paying more than they could be for a product. I am pointing out that it happens, it appears to happen pretty often, and that is a measure of popularity. The Amazon salesrank of the 360 is meaningless to compare with the PS3 salesrank until BOTH systems whip within 24 hours (or are even carried at all by Amazon itself).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Look back at your eProductWars link. Look at the primary system graph lower on the page.
You can see there what happens to the PS3 sales rank when they actually get units in stock to sell, as they had for a day or so around 1/28.
Further reinforcing the point I am making about demand.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Pretty much all the third party sellers on Amazon seem to ship only to US states or protectorates.
Forgive me if I am skeptical that the population of Puerto Rico is snapping up enough $700 PS3's to keep the sales rank around 58.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The third party sellers all ship to US and protectorates only. You forget that Amazon shipment policies are not the same as those of third party sellers who work through them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes it is. But if you know the history of consoles, who isn't? Nintendo was for a long time, despite their current good guy image. Microsoft still is; if anything, their record is worse than Sony's. Sega perhaps was not (if you give them a pass for "blast processing" and abandoning the 32X), but look what happened to them.
I paid $560 (CND) for my first run PS2 (still working) with summoner. It was a terrible game but the system paid off for me. The 60g PS3 is ~$650 CND here now so the differential is just inflation for me. For the 20 gig version it's no difference. Remember the Ps2 was expensive at first too. 2 years later it was $300 CND. 6 year slater it's $170 CND. It's not that far from the PS2 price point after inflation and the 20g model is at the exact same price point. Most of the "price" backlash is MS fanbois finding fault. You can find more fault with the RSX and lack of universal shaders and little edge over the 360's Xenos or the split memory architecture or the cell's ridicoulous learning curve and lack of good devleopers tools but the price isn't a huge issue. It's price is close to the ps2 release price.
As for the graphics and power arguements, they are fairly close to each other. The cell might offer awe inspiring vector and floating point but the universal shaders will ensure the 360 can mostly keep up graphically with the same or better frame rate. The tripple core will keep the 360 in the game as multi processor technique develope and the unifired memory of the 360 may make more sense and flexibility then the split "fast" ram and "normal" ram of the ps3. But time will tell. I can see some situations where the Ps3 set up makes more sense but I'm not a game programmer. But in the end, it all come down to the games. No matter what the 360 has on the ps3 the letters FF, MGS, GTA, GT, GOW will mean more then RSX, XENOS, GDDR3.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
...6-month old XBox 360s.
It makes sense... Microsoft had a head start so they've sold the most units, and therefore has the biggest fan base so far. Since it has the most users, they've got the most fanboys. Also, since Microsoft is considered somewhat of an underdog, these fanboys are more furious in their defense of Microsoft because they are concerned about their investment.
Nintendo fanboys are too busy playing with their Wiis, while the PS3 hasn't garnered it's share of user yet.
First the Microsoft fanboys attacked the PS3, but the trend is shifting towards attacking the Wii as well. Notice that an anti-Wii, anti-Sony post got modded up Insightful, even though it was biased towards the XBox 360. Nintendo fanboys should be wary - the real threat to Nintendo is Microsoft's fanboys - they're an important part of Microsoft's marketing arsenal.
If you play online, if you use WiFi, or if you watch HD, the PS3 is cheaper than the XBox 360. If you include all three, it's vastly cheaper.
WiFi - $100
online - $200 over 4 years
HD drive - $200
Add $500 to the XBox 360 price if you're using all these features.
Most people that have an XBox 360 use online, so the price of a premium XBox 360 is greater than a premium PS3 but without the HD drive.
You fool, you try that plan and you won't wake up until the we are at war with those pesky athiest otters.
Hey, sony marketing droids, wasn't that flog enough?
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
i always wandered why PS3 which allow you to run linux on it, and in that sense is amazing piece of hardware for the money (Small media center linux running pc, with blue ray and running old ps2 games and downloaded games for ps3?).
This is not that expensive for the price they asking.
Yes in the end the problem is getting this amount of money is hard. Might need to spent time saving. But i like the fact that i don't need to pay for live service on it. That something no one ever take into account as the price part (except one poster here). Sony do have a lot of problems, but actually i would be disapointed if PS3 fail because that thing in my opinion has amazing potential with more games coming out on it.
I am not a fan of the system or sony.
At this point i don't have money to buy any of the consoles, but one reason for me to buy ps3 might be using it as a media center, with linux on it.
"Wii sports are just lacking the depth to really hold my attention"
Wii sports was a demonstration disc thrown into the box for free. It was intended to show consumers and developers the proper way to use and develop for the Wii.
Of course it lacks depth. There is no depth. But you get what you pay for. In this case, you get a whole lot more.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
While thie price is high, you are getting a lot for that money and it would be more expensive to put the equivalent 360 together (I don't mention the Wii because it doesn't compete with hi-def solutions). The hardware performance can't be argued, HDMI is a plus, the hard drive is of decent size, built in WiFi seems a no brainer these days and while including Blu-Ray may have delayed the unit and cost a little more it will benefit PS3 owners down the line. The games line up looks more promising all the time and once Sony starts unleashing those franchise exclusives and originals (and devs get the hang of the hardware and provide better ports) it will be tough to spin the PS3 as a bad choice.
For people who have already gone with the 360 it's only natural some will be constantly negative as they will want to have bought into the dominant platform. But outside of a Playstation Network that is feature anemic but appears set to improve with the next couple firmware upgrades, the gap isn't as wide as they would like to pretend.
And finally... Motor Storm, LAIR, Drake's Fortune, Tekken, Warhawk, new game from ICO team, Devil May Cry 4, Ratchet and Clank, etc...
Step 1: Drop the stupid Blu-ray drive.
Step 2: Manufacturing costs plummet.
Step 3: Profit!
Sorry, just had to get that off my chest . . .
I'm wondering whether that will be enough. It took the PSP quite a while to come out with some decent games, and it seems to be too late. The console war is more of a sprint than a marathon. Your console needs to achieve critical mass quickly in order to get good third-party support. If that doesn't happen, a few good games a year later won't move enough boxes to change the course.
It seems that third-party devs are already moving support from the PS3 to the Wii, even after only a few months of sales. That could spell disaster for Sony.
What could help the PS3, though, is Bluray. If (and that's a big if) people want to move away from DVDs, the PS3 may yet reach a market. Even then, however, it's unclear whether that market would also be interested in games.
Yeah. Nobody wanting to buy your product is a good thing, and not being able to manufacture stuff fast enough is a bad thing. In your bizarro parallel universe. Nintendo clearly underestimated the demand for the Wii, but look at the sales numbers. It's not as if there were no Wiis available because Nintendo didn't make any. They're clearly not making enough, but they are making a ton of them.
There are no Wiis available because everyone and his mother and his grandmother (quite literally, too) are trying to buy them.
Living in Europe, I can tell you that lots of my friends were able to get Wiis. Wiis are still generally sold out. I know one person who will definitely get a PS3 (for Gran Turismo). Furthermore, Amazon UK took quite a bit of time selling out the PS3 preorders (over 9 hours, last time I checked). Wii preorders were sold out in 2 minutes. It's all anecdotal evidence, but I think people are wising up to the PS3. It won't do as well as in the US.
That's a different question from the one which was asked. Obviously, you can't get back your investment instantly. The question is: Does each sold console add to your gains or to your losses?
Wii Sports is viral. That's really all I can say. Zelda may have a huge attach rate, and it definitely shifted a few consoles, but Wii Sports, as simple as it may be, is the Wii's true system seller.
Probably at least as effective as Super Mario World.
Yeah, just like the NES had huge problems once the novelty of the D-Pad wore off. Joysticks FTW!
Actually, that is kind of wrong. There are two ways to fix this issue:
Ah, just to add to my previous answer, there's a third way to fix the problem: Move the sensor bar to be closer to you. That way, the Wii remote will more closely match your larger TV (although even back when I did not do that, I never noticed an issue. I have a beamer which projects a picture about 6 meters in diameter. People who came to my place actually asked me how the Wii knew how big my screen was - they never noticed that they only moved the pointer and didn't directly point at it).
Yes, it does. It says "if you create a game for that console, you can sell it to that many people."
Please, everyone, stop using VG Charts as a source for 'information'. The site uses other people's data and performs its own 'adjustments'. This would not be bad if VGCharts would tell us what these 'adjustments' were. Don't trust any sales information that doesn't reveal how it obtained its data. The maker of VG Charts is using other charts' data (such as Media Create, Famitsu, and NPD) and applying his own 'adjustments' to claim it his own. See all the advertising on that site? Yeah.
VGcharts is NOT reliable.
I suppose we can add Wii Sports to the list of horrible gimmick and novelty games along with...
-Nintendogs (sold around 9 million by now I believe)
-Sims (best selling PC game)
-Myst (second best selling PC game)
-Brain Age (sold millions but not sure how much)
I remember when I first played the NES. The light gun was cool but the Duck Hunt game lost its appeal quick. That Super Mario Brothers game? Get big by eating mushrooms? Gimmick. And what was with that new controller with its 'D-pad'? I went back to the REAL controller of the joystick with my hardcore games on the Commodore 64 thinking exactly on the line of 'novelty' and 'gimmick'.
Twenty years later, I am a little wiser. I know hardcore gamers would be more accurately labeled as 'addicted' gamers. And watch the young kids as the younger generation breaks for the Wii. They will grow up with the Wii-mote and consider it standard while the 'omg hardcore' players become seen as old cranks touting how awesome the classic controller and 'epic games' are.
I know this because I am currently seen as an 'old crank'. I still think the joystick is awesome and that my 'epic games' went downhill to these awful JRPGs. The "hardcore" gamers believe they have a 'future'. They never did in previous generations.