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RMS Protest Song On Gitmo
An anonymous reader tipped us to a protest song RMS has written and recorded (while visiting Cuba) and is hosting on stallman.org. It's a sort of parody, although it's too serious really to be called that, in Spanish of the song "Guantanamera," in which a Gitmo prisoner talks about his experiences and mourns his fate. RMS wrote the lyrics in 2006 after learning what "Guantanamera" actually means. The lyrics are moving, and the recording, in Ogg, is competent — RMS sings well and he's got some amateur musicians from Cuba backing him up. Here are the lyrics and an English translation.
"Be free, hackers, be free..."
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
but Ogg only?
Yeah I know its RMS, so ideology wins over practicality. But I'd think AAC would be ok, and then it could be played with iTunes or whatever.
I was expecting something like this...
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
For reasons of national security this matter may not be discussed.
Don't forget: Dissent kills marines
...to camp gitmo.
I hate when people use acronyms that they assume everyone knows. Even though I knew it, I would not be surprised if many did not.
The Road to Guantanamo - about three British muslims who end up in Gitmo, get abused and then released.
Real life is overrated.
I wonder what you are talking about. Contrary to popular belief, it is totally legal to visit Cuba (up to X times per year, [IIRC X is one]). There are also controls on how much currency you can bring with you, but to a certain extent, it is perfectly legal to vacation in Cuba (this is, in fact, common for citizens of Cuban descent).
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Go via a country whose foreign policy isn't completely asinine, 50 years after the fact.
That's SOOOOOOOOOOOOO '80-ties! You must have misspelled Al-Queda!
"enemies". Your corporations needs you thinking like that so your government can spend a huge percentage of their money on weapons. Sir/madam, the world is not in black and white, although your government wants you to believe that.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
Yep. Political support of the most unfree regimens (Cuba, Venezuela, Iran ... which go back to the dear USSR) in the name of freedom shows exactly what those people want: to impose THEIR idea of freedom upon everyone; a freedom in which all of us are equal but THEY (our self assumed saviors) are the most equal of all.
"it is totally legal to visit Cuba (up to X times per year, [IIRC X is one])"
You know, having grown up in an Eastern Block country where a symptom of the dictatorship we had was that we were allowed to go to the "West" only once in every four yours, I find this limit in the "Land of Free" totally hilarious (and, on the other hand, totally sad).
Real life is overrated.
feel slightly better about the guy now... Don't ask me why.
Not that I ever hated the guy, I only know what I read about him.
Maybe if Bush recorded a protest song in a foreign language I would find his zealot-ous rhetoric easier to swallow.
Regards.
P.S. Hey... My first troll-bait post!!! *shakes his own hand*
And the US is a free country ? Slaves of the dollar!
First the visit to Cuba (bitch and moan about the embargo how much you want, folks, but it's NOT a democratic and free country), now this?
Why hasn't Stallman said anything about other non democratic countries that treat people even worse? Like Cuba, or China, for example. Because they use free software so they're "friends"? What a lame hypocrite. I'm glad the whole Free Software movement is not like him.
I openly despise such a raving fanatic, that I thought had sunk already low with his babbling mention of "liberating everyone in the cyberspace" (don't have the link at hand, but it's on Groklaw).
A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
Gets out the lighter.
Tourist travel is not possible under U.S. law. Business-related travel is restricted to persons engaging in or arranging for permitted export sales, such as the sale of medicines or medical equipment, or for food or agricultural goods to non-governmental entities.
http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/2001/fsjulydec/
Eh? If you don't approve of the Guantanamo detentions, it means you like communism?? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
Look, I don't approve of the Guantanamo detentions, or the war in Iraq. I also happen to think that Fidel Castro is a raging deluded asshole, yet I also think that the embargo on Cuba is embarrassingly stupid and should stop.
And I didn't see anything at that website that indicated that RMS had actually visited Cuba, but speaking of that, it's also bizarre that an American citizen cannot go wherever the hell he pleases whenever he pleases.
Can see Microsoft's next complaint to the government already, it is illegal for them to trade with "our enemies" but no way to stop GPL'd software from being "traded" to "our enemies". Of course any Microsoft software "our enemies" are using must be pirated.
Root mean square?
I mean come on really... "RMS Protest Song On Gitmo" is completely meaningless.
Let me get this straight. As long as Castro embraces software freedom, actual political freedom is irrelevant in Stallman's world.
This is the same man who links to impeach Bush sites -- presumably not because of Bush's lack of embracing software freedom, though based on the current evidence, Stallman would forgive Bush for everything if he would embrace free software.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Ah hell, lets smoke bong loads and let 'em all out. They are all innocent shepherds and shopkeepers anyway. They can live next door to me. I mean, it's pefectly legit to teach the Quran even if you can't read. And Tora Bora is just a vacation spot, never mind you carried an AK and some grenades instead of a camera.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
He should stick to what he's good at, writing software.
Next you're going to say country music singers should just shut up and sing.
It's bullshit. Being good at something does not take away your right to hold or express political views.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
"bunch of communists"
Is that still a bad thing in America? Sounds like something from the 1950s!
Does anyone else find it funny that loopy right wingers first criticize Stallman for being a "communist" then turn around and support a restriction (not being able to freely travel or trade with Cuba) that represents anything but actual freedom.
Yes, the level of obliviousness is amazing.
Stall visits an island, run by a homicidel dictator, that most native people
are trying to escape in whatever (non)sea-worthy craft they can create.
He then "protests" about a detention facility which provides halal food, Korans wrapped in plastic, delivered by glove wearing guards (so the Koran will not be "defiled" by the "infidel") are provided to the "prisoners".
Meanwhile,in Pakistan, a 12 year old jihadist sawed of the head of a "spy".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_as/p
Will Stall go to the scene to protest this atrocity? I think not. It might require actual being in a danger zone.
Wanker.
We're talking about FOSS here day and night, however, I highly doubt that lots of people here can't play OGG without installing any kind of software.
Ahhh yes... Gitmo, the bastion of human rights. Of course, the fact that many people with no connections to terrorism were kept there against their will doesn't outrage you at all...
Today's lucky number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Got to love American ignorance and brain washing.
Communism isn't a bad thing, infact as children as are taught communism ideals. "Play fair and share" is the basis of Communism and we teach this to children from day one. If you think communism is some how a bad thing I suggest you look up what communism is, because it isn't a small group of people hording everything and leaving nothing for everyone under them to share.
I like muppets.
Yes, I'm sure that he had a dandy time there. I wonder if he is now going to write a song about political prisoners in any one of the 300 Cuban prisons/reeducation camps? No?
Let's bitch about Gitmo. Only one pillow per prisoner, the temperature is sligtly out of whack, the food is unnaceptable -- too much fat, they're getting chubby. Why not write a song about real torture instead of panties on someones head and loud Chili Pepper music?
One of the things that separate civilization from barbary is that we, generally, try to play fair -EVEN- with those people who would not extend the same courtesy to us.
Yeah, the human-rigths situation is (much) worse in Pakistan than it is USA, and on US-run detention-centres. That make you particularily proud ? Your ambition is to beat Pakistan, so aslong as you're ahead of them, you're a happy camper ?
Beautiful piece..
Actually I made my own RMS protest song, using one of his speeches as a voice sample over a hiphopish track. When I asked him for sample clearence he told me he didn't like it, and that his voice made it worse. But I could post it anyway, so here goes my music/blog spam: http://ringheimsauto.org/index.php/illegal-musikk/ (mp3/ogg/flac).
I wonder how he managed to visit Cuba without violating the federal law that prohibits US citizens from trading with our enemies.
There are several exceptions to the restrictions on travel to Cuba.
I would imagine that RMS went there for a conference on free software. This would fall under an exception which doesn't require special permission from the State Department.
How the hell did this get moderated as "Troll"? It has a perfectly good point behind it - why should a country that constantly plays on how free it is limit its citizens to where they travel?
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
Quoted for truth. Damn. Fucking. Straight. If that were the case only AOL users --
Oh wait, AOL is cliche. If that were the case only Myspace users could hold opinions.
Cuba is a perfect example of why embargo's do not work. That is why I never understood people advocating the like with Iraq and other countries.
Besides the poor - or soon to be poor - who does an embargo hurt?
He then "protests" about a detention facility which provides halal food, Korans wrapped in plastic, delivered by glove wearing guards (so the Koran will not be "defiled" by the "infidel") are provided to the "prisoners".
Of course this same detention center is keeping these people against their will without any kind of means to challenge their incarceration. Plus water boarding and sleep deprivation don't sound all that pleasant and most would call this kind of treatment torture.
Yes the regime in Cuba does terrible things to its citizenry and is one the world could do without. This, however, does not mean that RMS is "oblivious" in protesting the plight of these inmates at the hands of a country that is suppose to be above such practices. Likewise, his not going into a "danger-zone" to observe other deplorable acts for which to create a protest song about does not discredit what he has written about the prisoners in Cuba.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
halal food, Korans wrapped in plastic, delivered by glove wearing guards (so the Koran will not be "defiled" by the "infidel") are provided to the "prisoners".
Well, when you put it that way holding people for half a decade without charges *does* sound like a good idea.
Honey, it's true what they're saying... habeus corpus *is* overrated... yes, they get Korans and things... if I had only had known they would be getting halal food!
Tourist travel is not possible under U.S. law. Business-related travel is restricted to persons engaging in or arranging for permitted export sales, such as the sale of medicines or medical equipment, or for food or agricultural goods to non-governmental entities.
http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/2001/fsjulydec/
There are no prohibitions for travel from Canada to Cuba. Canadian citizens are free to travel to Cuba on vacation.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Does anyone else appreciate the extreme irony of going to protest in Cuba, a nation that was rated as having the second least free press (just behind North Korea) in the world, no political freedom of any sort, and thousands of political prisoners. Cuba is a nation where if someone decided to go protest against the political prisoners held in Cuban jails, they would be rounded up and tossed into jail. Going to Cuba to protest some other nations violations of liberty is the sort of thing that should make people laugh until they cry.
"Let me get this straight. As long as Castro embraces software freedom, actual political freedom is irrelevant in Stallman's world."
And who do you think is a good example of embracing freedom, if you were going to consider the USA, then consider the following points.
- Doesn't recognize the democratically elected palistinian government as being legitimate
- Recognize Pakistan's military dictatorship as legitimate.
- Places domestic travel bans on its citizens
- Limits travel to other countries (as mentioned above)
- Spies on its own people without probable cause, (echlon/carnivore/whatever its called now, RFID ? )
- Violates its own constitution (count the ways)
- No longer has a clear separation from the judicial system (sacking bush unfriendly judges)
- Highest imprisonment rate of any country per head of population
- The government of some states kill their own people (capital punishment)
Face it, "land of the free" is nothing more than a propaganda term.
RMS isnt superman... solving all the worlds problems is too much for one person, maybe he just wants to concentrates on software freedom, doesnt mean he shouldnt express his views on other types of freedom.
If you would expect RMS to keep silent about his views on political freedom, then can you honestly say you respect political freedom ?
90% of what comes out of his mouth is pure drivel and should be discarded. 5% is sentimentally true but needs lots of editing to be generally palatable. The last 5% are actually good ideas.
Recover whatever ideas you can from him and incorporate them into your own beliefs, if you so choose. The rest can be safely ignored, because nobody else is going to listen to him with any seriousness. Really, I don't understand what the problem is here.
At least this song doesn't make my ears bleed.
But, hey, it also made him a much nicer person in my opinion. Almost everything I read about him concerns such fanatical debates that one forgets he is a human being. And his Spanish accent is not too bad, although he would need to polish a bit his "r" sounds.
The only decent paroday of Guantanamera is "One Ton Tomato" and there are numerous versions of that.
"It's bullshit. Being good at something does not take away your right to hold or express political views."
True, but being good at being attractive or a good singer does give you a larger stage than you would normally have to disseminate your ill-informed, embarrassing rantings, which your opinions usually are when you're a rich dilettante whose principle contribution to society was to make millions of people think, "that sounds neat" for thirty seconds.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
So, RMS becomes Castro's latest "useful idiot".
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The limit of 'zero times' that many residents of Cuba are today allowed to visit the US should give you cause to reflect, also.
If you think communism is some how a bad thing I suggest you look up what communism is, because it isn't a small group of people hording everything and leaving nothing for everyone under them to share.
Tell it to anyone who ever lived in a communist country. If you weren't an appratchik, you were screwed.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You may or may not be right about this 'communism' that you speak of.
The dictatorship in Cuba is deplorable, however.
..... but I grew up in Florida and know a LARGE number of Cuban immigrants that would scoff at your remarks. They've had family members tortured and killed in some of the most horrif and brutal ways immaginable. I'll take a family members first hand account over some leftist whacko apologists "buyer beware" statements anyday.
Who are you talking about? Last time I checked their official news agency used Windows Server 2003
Bill Gates is gonna counter by releasing a song about how we need more H1B's to replace Godless communist OSS programmers.
Table-ized A.I.
I believe your shrines are this way.
STFU
The song has NOTHING at all to do with Cuba, it's about Gitmo which, for all practical purposes, is 100% American.
He happened to write the song while in Cuba, so what? He could have written it in Argentina or Canada or China.
Now go back to your GI Joes, the grown-ups are talking.
There arn't any communist countries left on Earth, there are just people who want to claim to be.
I like muppets.
How about a song? Huh? You gonna write one? I would but I have no piano available. Wanna give me a piano so I can make one? I got a piano you can transport for me so I can write your song. Give me a chance, get my piano to me and I'll do it. Promise.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Besides the poor - or soon to be poor - who does an embargo hurt?
The opposing party/leaders. An embargo provides what every politician needs: something to blame everything on.
"It's not my fault your poor. It's the embargo"
"Not my fault we don't have enough fule. It's the embargo"
"The lack of electricity in Havana? The food shortages? All the American's fault"
"It's not that we have rules and policies that discourage actual progress. It's all those damn Americans"
As someone whoes talked to a lot of Cubans and knowing what conditions are like in that country (outside of the tourist areas) I have to wonder if Castro would have been overthrown a long time ago if the American government hadn't been jumping up and down with huge "Blame us for everything" sign on their foreheads.
What about the communists who plotted to assassinate Hitler?
Hello.
I'm listening to a collection of madrigals played on the harpsichord accompanied by flute.
It's lovely.
hahahaha
you americans think you are free? here in the UK, i can go to cuba on holiday if I like. You people let your govt tell you where to holiday? isn't the justifaction for all having guns so you can rebel against this shit?
land of the free my ass.
Yes, it's still a shitty idea.
The "land of the free" (USA) also has over 2 million of it's population in prison, vs a figure of 1 million for China.
t ion_statistics
The US also has the largest *percentage* of it's population in prison of any country in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Prison_popula
It's funny the way that, when someone points out something bad done by Americans we all have to hear about how many other worse things there are.. However; in this case it's very clear. RMS is from the USofA. He has much more responsibility for the direct acts of his country. He should protest against Guantanamo first and Cuban dictators second. Even more; once, not so long ago, the US was a major force for human rights. E.g. the UN Genocide conventions; pre-war work on the Geneva conventions etc. etc. Now, whenever people from the US complain about human rights in Cuba, others can just say "yes the Cubans are bad, but at least they don't torture people to death like you did with the Iraqi general, and many others".
Cleaning up Gitmo would really help start to get the moral basis of American human rights back on track. It's a first step toward getting the right to criticise Cuba back.
I do not think that is true. Communism how it was executed in history is a bad thing, but the basic concept is okay. I think it would be great to live in a Utopian Communist society.
The reason why it can't work is greed. That said, while Capitalism bases itself on greed, it can have really adverse effects. Companies being treated as persons and all.
That said, I think that the song was very good... Form a musical standpoint as I do not understand Spansish and I didn't bother reading the translation.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
The word you're looking for is "totalitarian", not "communist".
I was commenting on "Useful Idiot's" comparison of the situation in Eastern Europe to the situation in the US, where s/he was totally overlooking the plight of the ordinary Cuban citizens who are in a situation closer to that of the Eastern Europeans s/he cited.
Please reserve your childish 'I know I am, but you are, too!' retort to lower level discussions. The kid's table is over there by the kitchen.
O'Reilley? Is that you, Billy?
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
If you'd know what you were talking about you'd know that Cuba doesn't stamp your passport. They just look at it. This applies not only to Americans but to anyone who visits so that they don't have problems in the States [and al].
Sadly, this is not the only example of the US acting against its own interests in disastrous ways.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Actually, I'd just stop at "shut up". But that's just me.
You mean every country, including the US, has always held prisoners - without trial - until the end of hostilities? You mean that the Left is holding Bush to an entirely different standard than any previous president in wartime? You mean in past wars, prisoners weren't Mirandized on the battlefield and given one phone call and lawyers and full Constitutional protections including speedy trials?
And to answer your next question [when will they be released?], when al Qaeda surrenders. Oh, but they will never surrender! Sorry, that's the rules in wartime. Why should they be different simply because this enemy flouts all conventions of war and is more tenacious? This is a real war people. I can only hope it doesn't take a Nuke in a major US city - by a released Gitmo prisoner - to convince you.
I honestly believe this. Don't mod troll or flamebait just because you disagree with it. Sometimes things you disagree with sting a little.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Hehe. You're not under the misimpression that the United States is a free country, are you?
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
BFD
And in other insignificant RMS fanbody/cult news:
RMS eats a meal!
RMS breathes!
RMS blows his nose!
What's next? RMS and Lyndon LaRouche announce their ticket for the 2008 US Presidential elections?
I salute you for speaking your mind freely, Mr...Anony...Oh, nevermind.
Seriously though, a lot of critics of Bush's policies have been put on the no-fly list.
Res publica non dominetur
The "land of the free" (USA) also has over 2 million of it's population in prison, vs a figure of 1 million for China.
t ion_statistics
The US also has the largest *percentage* of it's population in prison of any country in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Prison_popula
I wonder if Chinas' lower reported numbers of prisoners might have anything to do with the fact they tend to simply shoot a large percentage of those other countries would otherwise jail, and that they probably don't report those in various political 're-education' camps as 'prisoners' as such? Besides, China would never lie about how many they imprison, in any case.
The U.S. justice system is quite screwed up, no doubt. Still, given a choice, if I had to go to prison, I still think I'd much rather get sent to Gitmo, nevermind a normal U.S. prison, as opposed to a Chinese prison. That is, if my family didn't simply end up with a bill for a bullet as many Chinese families have.
Remember kids, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Cheers!
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
It's still far, far more free than, say, Cuba or China. Vastly more free. But it's trampling its own principles in stunning, alarming ways, reducing democratic rights and principles and rule of law and freedom, all of these essential things taking second stage in the holy war against terrorism, this war against a featureless monster that serves as an excuse for anything.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Please reserve your childish 'I know I am, but you are, too!' retort to lower level discussions.
Actually, you were the one to use this retort. Anyway, 1 and 0 are both ridiculous, but only the 1 is surprising.
Single minded bigots are an even worst thing anytime, anywhere.
Res publica non dominetur
If you're looking for higher-quality, non-politically-motivated info, or think that the Cuban government is being unfairly maligned, check out Amnesty International's evaluation: http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/cub-summary-eng/
Again, why does the enemy, with its intransigence, get to decide the rules? Surrender and we'll let everyone go. It is quite simple. And there is no such thing as "international law" unless it is a treaty that the US has signed and ratified, and under the US legal system, any treaty is superseded by subsequent conflicting federal law (e.g., the Detainee Treatment Act). I don't recall suspending the US Constitution and surrendering US sovereignty to the United Nations.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Actually, this gives us a needed enemy that we can point at and say, "See? Look at how bad non-capitalist economies are."
Don't be fooled by imitations.
At least they're honest. And their songs are better than "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran."
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
What kind of bizarre logic is that?
Digital? You know, this or that, yes or no, one or zero, "you're either with us or against us".
I read couple of your replies where you reiterate the same falsehoods about what communism is. There have been no communist countries on Earth for quite a while. Soviet Russia tried communism for a few months back in 1918-1919, it didn't work out. USSR, China, Cuba were/are socialist dictatorships with limited private property. Communism is an utopian social system impossible to attain due to human nature. Since it's impossible to implement, there can be no communist countries... Duh! Also, you should thank me for not insulting you personally for writing incredibly silly stuff.
In the US, to be a true patriot you should "rally around the flag" in this "time of need" and "time of war". You're not supposed to question the President on these issues. The Great Leader should have a free rein to do as he pleases.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
This doesn't say enough about someone to impeach their credibility. Lots of people link to impeach Bush sites. Your observations about Fidel Castro (an irrelevant figure to this story if you had RTFA) seem a little quaint since he would probably have made a better president than Bush. And there is nothing unreasonable about impeachment itself:
Actually, there's a lot of people in Russia who wants to go back to communism. Mainly the old people who were born under communism, not the younger people. They were used to live in a country were selling/buying things was not usual, and many people has not gotten used to it, AFAIK. And the way Russia turned into a capitalist country (selling all the state-owned properties via corruption) has turned Rusia into a country where there's a lot of difference between richer people and poor people who hates all the rich guys who become rich when the state sold everything. So there's not a love for capitalism there - not because of communism or capitalism, but becaouse other reasons
A fully reasonable comparison. When my dad once went to the United States, he first thought that he had gotten on the wrong plane and landed in the Soviet Union (this was while the USSR still existed). Where else would you need to fill in a whole range of papers declaring this and that*, as well as tell the immigration officials where you intend to stay and so on.
*= To a foreigner, the US immigration papers look more than silly, they make a laugh of the entire US (first impressions, you know). You have to answer questions on whether you were ever a member of a communist organization, whether you are going to the US to commit terrorist acts, etc, etc. Do they really expect the communists or terrorists to answer Yes in any of these forms? How naive are those immigration officials really?
No offense, but it is insanely ridiculous.
Sorry to say that so frankly but I'm disgusted by the foreign policy of the US. But then I read Slashdot, a site which I consider only educated ppl read and ppl who are able to think for themselves... And then I read so many weird comments relativising Guanatanamo.
... say Germany, a powerful first world country and not usually seen as being part of the "axis of evil" would hijack a US citzien visiting Italy, flying him to say... Afghanistan, let him torture him by locals to gain information, figure out that I was a mistake and after holding him for 2+ years release him without any charges.
The fact is, that the US is hijacking foreigners in foreign countries, flying them to 3d-world countries to torture them and circumvent US laws.
Just one question: What would you say if
What would you then think of Germany as a country?
Thing is, the US is exactly behaving like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri
Then imagine reading a german website where a lots of Germans would say: "Well capturing foreigners and holding them without trial is not such a bad thing. At least we're not torturing them... well at least not so brutal... and giving them food. And bibles."
Then figure what your opinion of Germany and the German ppl would be.
In the new USofA we seem insane because we are so right it is confusing.
I agree. Communism can only work in environments where greed is not a factor, such as in a family. There it can work well though.
RMS does not have to point out the failings of Cuba - they are a constant part of the news we are fed. On the other hand, not enough people are protesting our Gulags - and we should be holding ourselves up to a higher standard than Cuba is.
The problem with EEUU is not so much EEUU, but their foreign policy.
For example, I don't know many people that support EEUU views on the Iran nuclear issue. Because they know that EEUU has been the only country in the story of humanity that has actually dropped nuclear bombs to innocent people. So their thinking goes like "uh, the only country that has dropped nuclear bombs into a city and feels proud of it now tries to look like he is trying to stop other countries from doing the same?"
And we know that EEUU has a long track of supporting dictatorships that supported capitalism and declaring the war to democracies that tried to turn into a socialist economy. South-america hates EEUU, and for very good reasons. So we just don't believe when EEUU says he's trying to fight terrorism and promote freedom - we know quite well EEUU doesn't bothers about democracy or dictatorship, he just cares about capitalism (which allows EEUU companies to enter those countries) and communism, nothing else. IOW, they only care about money, not about freedom and rights.
Then I guess Cuba should be very sparsely populated by now, as most people have tried to escape (and either succeeded, drowned or having been killed by Cuban forces). But according to Wikipedia, Cuba has a population of a little more than eleven million people on 110,000 km^2, which isn't really sparsely populated. Now of course the Wikipedia article could be manipulated by the cuban government to inflate their numbers...
I did not see it that way, but you have indeed a point. My family pretty much works like that.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
I agree with the gist of your post. When it comes to travel and related subjects, the United States is certainly not the "land of the free". And I'm not only referring to their travel restrictions to certain countries, but also to the ridiculous procedures you have to go through to enter the country. More specifically, I'm referring to the "I am not a communist or a terrorist" forms handed out during flights to the US, that you need to fill in to pass immigration.
So is RMS now singing a different tune? The Hurd started in 1990.
That was seventeen years ago.
SEVENTEEN YEARS.
And it's not even ready for an alpha release.
This is what RMS has become. This is now how he spends his time.
Whither the bazaar?
Withered.
No one, especially RMS, would say that actual political freedom is irrelevant (you should check out his website).
The word you're looking for is "totalitarian", not "communist".
Actually, the terminology is incidental. Collectivists are all misanthropes and autocrats, and the stylistic variations between them are trivial.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I read couple of your replies where you reiterate the same falsehoods about what communism is.
Oh, please. Spare me the standard "oh, but you've never seen REAL communism" bullshit. Any ideology that preaches the sacrifice of the individual to the collective, the state, the race, the deity, whatever the hell it is, is fundamentally based on hatred of and contempt for people and the lust for power.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Translation: EEUU is Spanish for The US.
Indeed you're right. The US has sabotaged its own good name and goodwill over and over again. And they just keep at it, over and over, again and again.
The most stunning example of this is how they gained sympathy all over the world after 9/11 and then somehow managed to squander it all in a few months, simply by showing an astonishingly bullying attitude rather than looking for co-operation regarding the Iraq war.
They had such amazing goodwill and sympathy, even in Islamic countries. Sadly, their propaganda machine refused to portray this goodwill, preferring to stir up conflict. But outside the US and its propaganda machine there was so much goodwill, it felt like some kind of world-wide friendship among nations was growing forth. So many past mistakes were being forgiven.
And yet somehow they managed to squander almost all of this in just a few months, by showing an amazingly bullying attitude and disdainfully neglecting all the persistent warnings about the chaos and surging terrorism that would unavoidably ensue if they went forth with their Iraq adventure.
*Sigh!* For a while it looked so promising!
I suppose their war industry didn't like that promising outlook.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Karl Marx's vision was of communism being imposed by a totalitarian terror state. The USSR was a totalitarian terror state, and was supported by Western leftists as a wonderful example of socialism in action.
"I think people who were wavering about whether what we are doing in Guantanamo is right,"
All six of them? After all, it's been over five years now.
"will come down on the side of Bush when they see unkempt hippie commies like RMS"
Ah yes, victim of the ol' Secret Constitutional Amendment that strips citizenship away from "unkempt hippie commies."
"we are at WAR after all."
With whom, exactly? Iran? North Korea? Cuba? And whether your answer is Afghanistan, Iraq, or Oceania this week, there's still the fact that the United States hasn't been at war with anybody since 1945.
"RMS should be put on trial for treason..."
It's nice to know you share your grasp of the federal constitution with your chosen president.
http://www.recreantview.org/songs/jonobacon-freeso ftwaresong.ogg
I have about 110 million people who would disagree with you.
Karl Marx intended communism as a totalitarian terror state. That's precisely what occurred in practice, along with savage inequalities in wealth and power.
You only get that for playing chess these days.
And the music. And the food - if you can get anything more than just rice and beans.
Now the current, corrupt US administration is of course another story. They basically, callously and corruptly used the 11/9 incident as a means by which to profit their corporate partners and in turn themselves.
The utterly contemptible way in which they have traded human lives for profit, corrupted justice for greater corporate power and used two religions as nothing but a cynical exercise in political marketing, puts them beyond doubt, as the most corrupt and criminal administration in US history.
The worst possible mistake the Americans can now make, is to fail to prosecute the current administrations for the crimes they have self evidently committed, this failure would inevitably lead to even greater excesses by future administrations.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
If I had the power, you'd get a +5,Insightful. Thank you for the post.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Care to back up this assertion? If this were true, it flies in the face the fact that there are much better examples.
The whole crackdown on Cuba has nothing to do with the "Wag The Dog" phenomenon. It has much more to do with Florida's electoral votes.
Doesn't matter. US citizens are not allowed to travel to Cuba under any circumstances other than what is allowed by the State Dept.
Sure, you can travel to Mexico or Canada and then get on another plane to Cuba, but it is still technically illegal, and you will be fined or jailed if you come back with a Cuban stamp without proper authorization. Most Americans get around this by asking the Cuban authorities not to stamp their passports, and they almost always oblige.
Just like it's technically illegal to import Cuban cigars into the country (and the vast majority are poorly constructed fakes from the DOminican Republic), but they're easy to get if you know who to do business with in Europe, Australia, Hong Kong, or the UAE. If you're particularly worried about getting caught, they'll even unband the cigars and ship the boxes and bands separately so that Customs has no reason or right to seize them.
The U.S is a nasty place, no freedoms, Bush is a dictator, blah blah blah.
There are few countries in this world where the U.S. hasn't gone in and saved their ass from something or someone.
We spend more money on international aid than anyone else.
Yeah, we toast son's of bitches that commit capital crimes, but it takes 10 years and millions of dollars, unlike your precious Palestinian terrorist government that will go from accusation to execution in a few hours...usually skipping the trial.
Bush sacked U.S. Prosecutors you moron, not judges. And there was nothing wrong with it because those jobs are political appointments.
I am so tired of punk wads bitching and moaning about the U.S. while their own little third world, backwater hovel is taking money (my money) from us.
And if you don't have the guts to sign on and let everyone know who you are, then you can just sit down and shut the F**k up.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Individualists are all selfish misanthropes as well. Maybe there's a lesson here?
I hate to be anal retentive, but a critical element of a gulag is forced labor. The word gulag itself in an acronym for Main Camp Administration. A gulag can have good conditions or bad conditions, but it must be used for labor that contributes to the national GDP. The gulags have gone through many iterations. In the 1920s when they were created they were incredibly inefficient. Then in the 1930s with Stalin's urging they became more efficient but extraordinarily brutal. By the 1950s they became less brutal and more bureaucratic. They were finally closed down by Gorbachev in the 1980s.
While people like to use the word gulag for a harsh prison, that is completely false. The word only has meaning when you are talking about forced labor camps which could have good or bad conditions. And since the Guantanamo Bay Prison is not being used for forced labor, you cannot use the word 'gulag' to describe it.
The United States has forced labor with things like chain gangs, but since they do not contribute to a significant fraction of the GDP for any state they are not gulags. If there was a prison in the US that made a profit from the work of the inmates (enough to pay for their incarceration), then you'd have a gulag.
One of the reasons that gulags became so harsh in the 1930s is that Stalin set extreme limits with his 5 yr plans for industrialization of the Soviet Union. The camp administrators then decided that they would reward the workers who worked the hardest with the most food and the best conditions and punish those who lagged behind with little food and poor conditions. Not surprisingly, this created a downward spiral for many inmates which was responsible for millions of deaths.
>The most stunning example of this is how they gained sympathy all over the world after 9/11 and then somehow managed to squander it all in a few months, simply by showing an astonishingly bullying attitude rather than looking for co-operation regarding the Iraq war. ...
> And yet somehow they managed to squander almost all of this in just a few months, by showing an amazingly bullying attitude and disdainfully neglecting all the persistent warnings about the chaos and surging terrorism that would unavoidably ensue if they went forth with their Iraq adventure.
Living in the US and being one of the 25% of people interested in news and current events, I can guarantee you that the Iraq War, which began in March of 2003, took quite a bit longer than "a few months".
Your memory, however, is correct, much of the US' "international good-will" evaporated in a few months after 9/11, especially in Muslim and what used to be the "non-aligned" countries. After the US attacked the Taliban in Afghanistan. And to that, I give a giant middle finger to the self-serving hypocrites around the world expressing "sympathy" and withdrawing it after the US took appropriate action in its self-defense.
It's sad so many people lump in the justified war in Afghanistan with the unjustified war in Iraq.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Oh yeah , it was so wonderful in the old Soviet Union that people would line up for hours just to get a kilo of meat , a dozen eggs , a few wilted vegetables while the apparatchiks gets to live in dachas , plenty of food and able to obtained german appliances for their own use. It did not help during Russia's transition to Free market from socialist/central economy that many of the former apparatchiks and KGB agents were the ones running the economy and many of them were blinded with corruption.
Of course some part of the blame does fall on others. Very close to half the US voters did choose Bush. And what's probably worse, a huge part of the US population buys and sponsors media that publish patriotic propaganda—stuff that isn't really patriotic because it sabotages the true interests of the US.
But can you really blame the American public for being swayed by the propaganda? After all the propagandists are extremely skillful.
Arguably you can't even blame the propagandists. I'm sure many of them do what they sincerely believe is best.
It's a terrible mess!
In any case, the real responsibility lies with the Administration and the propagandists. When people criticize the actions of the US, I don't think you should ever assume that they're criticizing the American people. The distinction is very clear. People can take a very dim view of the actions of your Administration, and still love and respect and admire the US in many ways. I'm one example of a person who feels this way.
In fact one reason why I'm so critical is that I would expect better, and therefore I'm sorely disappointed.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Here comes the helicopter -- second time today
Everybody scatters and hopes it goes away
How many kids they've murdered only God can say
If I had a rocket launcher...I'd make somebody pay
I don't believe in guarded borders and I don't believe in hate
I don't believe in generals or their stinking torture states
And when I talk with the survivors of things too sickening to relate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would retaliate
On the Rio Lacantun, one hundred thousand wait
To fall down from starvation -- or some less humane fate
Cry for guatemala, with a corpse in every gate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would not hesitate
I want to raise every voice -- at least I've got to try
Every time I think about it water rises to my eyes.
Situation desperate, echoes of the victims cry
If I had a rocket launcher...Some son of a bitch would die
According to an article called "Hell Fire!" by Bridget Freer, FHM magazine, December 1999 issue, "If I Had A Rocket Launcher" was one of the songs played at high volume outside the Vatican Embassy in Panama City in 1989, in order to drive out Manuel Noriega. Along with "I Fought The Law" and "Nowhere To Run" among others, it was not successful because of complaints from the Ambassador.
Seemingly ridiculous, indeed, save for one point: If ever they find you gave money to some "terrorist" group or were involved with some "communist" organization, they can deport you. Not because giving your money to some "terrorist" group or having "communist" friends is illegal (it may not be), but because you lied on your immigration forms, and entered the country thus on false pretenses. That's sufficient to deport you, without the hassle of formally accusing you of dubious crimes.
1) I think the "have you been a member of the communist party" question is a mistake on your part. IIRC the correct question is "were you a memeber of the german nazi party during the war".
Communists can run, on the ballot, for president in the US, they aren't illegal. Harboring war criminals is.
2) these questions are to allow the government to quickly and efficiently revoke the visa and kick the person out if they are found to having lied on those questions. It is much easier to nullify a visa than to resind it.
And I think anyone who has visited both Soviet Russia & the most US constitution-blind America wouldn't have too much of a problem telling them appart once inside.
Unfortunately, our country is run by lawyers and bureaucrats... don't expect a lot of common sense when dealing with the government. Most policies can be traced back to CYA (cover your ass). Fortunately once you are inside you rarely have to deal with them.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I wish we didn't jail so many people for drug crimes - it seems quite unenlightened. Still, your comparison to China is puzzling since they simply execute their drug offenders.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
It is also generally agreed that the Afghanistan war and its aftermath could have had very positive consequences, both in the struggle against terrorism and in the democratization of the region, whereas the Iraq war from the very outset promised only exploding terrorism, and would sabotage what could otherwise have been gained in Afghanistan regarding democracy in the region.
Here in Sweden the two wars are seen as very different, and in many ways diametrical opposites.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
the sons and daughters of democratic countries have their sympathies with the treatment of mostly terrorist assholes, imprisoned on an island which is mostly a totalitarian state?
it's kind of like looking at a molehill, and seeing great evil, and spending all of your time obsessing about it... and completely forgetting the mountain right over your shoulder
it's really odd to me
kind of an inability to have perspective, to understand scale, to perceive context
if the treatment of the prisoners in guantanamo bay were the largest problem facing the world, which the attention pointed to it would seem to suggest, then the world would be a very wonderful place
as it is, for every single issue you are worried about, if guantamo bay is the penultimate example of that issue in your mind, you seem to be extremely deprived of contact with the reality as things be in most of the world
why guantanamo garners so much attnetion, to me this speaks of people out of touch with the reality of the world, it speaks to me of western children
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And two of those principles have been 1) We hold POWs until the war is over and 2) the Constitution has never, ever applied to foreign nationals captured on the battlefield (until, apparently, George W. Bush is president).
The Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
I, for one, thought this was quite funny.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Well... you must not be a LatinAmerican then. When I went to Europe (Spain, Germany, Sweeden, Belgium) they asked me the same thing: What was the purpose of my travel, where I was going to stay, and I needed to show my two-way ticket. And wait: it gets funnier: I can not go into Canada without a Visa. Up to 2002, my country was in the visa Waiver program and I could get in the US without a Visa. I went to Cancun, Mexico, and they asked me an International Credit Card at the customs... go figure...
I agree that the Bush Administration has been inconsistent and has tried to have it both ways. But if, as you say, the administration is wrong, why should its arguments have any validity in the historical paradigm I laid out (i.e., that POWS are held until hostilities cease)? Just because Bush is inconsistent (something I have lamented from Day One of this war), doesn't make the Free Gitmo! crowd right. The guys in there are hard core and many have been found on the battlefield more than once after being released from custody. This is why the US (and all countries) has always held enemies in POW camps, so they can't go back to shooting at us!
move to discredit terrorist organizations
Good idea in the abstract, but terrorism has continued for half a century, and it doesn't seem to be becoming discredited any time soon. And rather than call out terrorists, we see a UN that won't even pass resolutions against it (unless it is Israel defending itself) let alone take action, an international press (e.g., BBC) that won't even use the word "terrorist," and a US Democratic Congress that has just banned the term "War on Terror" in all war appropriations bills. Sounds like 1938 appeasement all over again.
The problem is, most of the world is in a "it was on TV, so it can't happen to me" mass media slumber, and doesn't take this worldwide, fascist, revolutionary movement seriously, or they want to appease it. Problem is, there is no ignoring or appeasing Islamicists. In the New Caliphate, there is no other choice but to conform or die, and many of the conformists are asked to die too.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
His comment was a play on a conservative American figure (Bill O'Reilly) who belongs to a camp of commentators that use inflamatory rhetoric to whip the populace up.
I will check out the book you referenced when I get a chance.
Regards.
That's nothing, I almost fell off my chair when soon after 9/11 Bush went on TV and said "either you are with us, or you are against us." That was a well known Ceausescu era saying.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
but i will say this:
if you go on and on and on with anger and righteous outrage and high holy terror about the evils of guantanamo
and then you go
"oh yeah, those other things are bad to"
when those other things are orders of magnitude worse
then you have some really weird priorities
and you look kind of hollow and empty and childish
to attack molehills, and ignore mountains
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You seem to be suggesting that since this enemy is so unconventional in its strategy, tactics, and form, that (despite flouting all rules of war) it should get special treatment. This makes no sense. We reward, rather than punish, those who betray all rules of war?
And what possible crime can someone be charged with in US Courts when they are caught in a foreign country where US Courts have no jurisdiction?
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
"Or maybe it's because as a democracy, we are responsible for our decisions, not for anyone else's. We are accountable for the leaders we elect, because we freely elected them. We had the choice to do things differently, we chose not to. If our leaders misbehave, commit crimes, etc, then WE are culpable. Nobody else."
if a guy jaywalks on the street, scream and yell and curse about it, because he listens to you. but if another guy murders, and doesn't listen to your, well then ignore him. so your morality is based on how much the criminal responds to you, regardless of the scale of his crime? pfffft
furthermore, we live in the age of jet air travel and the internet. what happens in kandahar, matters in manhattan. there is no magic wall separating "us" from "them". we are them, they are us. there is no place you, as a human being, are not responsible for. the only morally and intellectually defensible position on any issue in the world in today's world is a global one. there is no american problem, or middle eastern problem, or chinese problem, etc. there are only problems. human problems. and so you need a human conscience, an attitude that considers all problems in such a way that their scale, no matter how far away from you, is the only judge of how far up your agenda it should lie. do you consider yourself a person of human morality? do you think you have a human conscience? well then stop coming at me like you have only an american conscience, only a western morality
"Or maybe it's because education is random, cultural evolution has been sporadic, technological evolution has been hoarded, and military hardware is on sale to anyone who wants it. There is no reason to expect anyone to behave in a mature, sane fashion around nukes or other high-power weaponry, when we make no effort to raise the standards of understanding and education. Ethics isn't found in a christmas cracker, it's found only in understanding."
uh... coherence please?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Bush didn't sack any judges. Those were lawyers that work for the Justice dept of the administrative branch. They can be fired at a President's whim. There's nothing wrong with using the death penalty to get rid of the scum of the earth. Not unlike the current Palestinian government which is run by a terrorist group.
::Shakes head:: Replying to an AC, what am I coming to?
I approved of the war in Iraq. I felt it was a good thing for us to go there and get Saddam. The way this war has been carried out, however, is a failure. Guantanamo is one of the colossal failures. The fact that it took that long to remove the leaders was a failure. We are the US. We should be able to gather all the intel we need before we take military action. We should have been able to take out everyone in our deck of cards during the first week. We didn't, and now I believe that we have completed our mission in Iraq, and need to withdraw.
I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
Hell yes. I don't understand why people think that just because they're a famous (actor/musician/geek/whatever), we're supposed to give a shiat what their politics are. Stick to what you're good at there, sparky, and stop making an ass of yourself in other areas. It limits your credibility, which hurts open source.
The reason they put those questions on the form is so that should any of those things later turn out to be true (nazi war criminal, blah blah), they can kick you out of the country for lying on your immigration form.
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
I was one of the producers, you can see here the full credits.
Communists may in fact be legal in the US, but that doesn't stop the question from being asked by immigration officials. I have several friends from the former Eastern block who remember the question well, as they *were* members of communist parties, not because of any love of Marx, but because it was basically required to join to have any chance of university tenure under Communist rule.
Actually there's no legal basis for the operation of a prison camp at Guantanamo bay.
... one of a long, long, string of such adventures in US military history. In actual fact - as opposed to legalistic theory - the base belongs to the US by brute force. They have effectively annexed it, and they will use it as they see fit, because it suits them to do so, and because they can. Don't like it? Tough!
The Cuban govt is in no way "bound to honor the old agreement". The continued existence of the base has a much more mundane reason - that the Cubans are (for very sensible military reasons) not willing to go to war against the US to restore their sovereignty of this bit of national territory.
As for the so-called "lease" itself:
Firstly, it's unenforceable under international law, because it was imposed on the Cuban govt under military force. There's a Vienna convention on treaties that deals with this, amongst other things. During the colonial period, the world's colonial powers imposed all kinds of "concessions" and "treaties" on their subject peoples, and these concessions have almost always been abrogated by military, rather than legal means; i.e. by the use (or the threat of use) of force against the occupiers.
Secondly, even if the "lease" itself had any legal credibility, the terms of the lease explicitly specify that the naval base is to be used purely as a naval base and coaling station, and for no other purpose. Use of the base as a prison is a clear breach of the terms of the lease.
The legal fiction of a "lease" is just a fig-leaf covering up a colonial occupation of part of the territory of Cuba, very like the long US military occupation of the Panama canal zone. I guess, though, that the "lease" story plays rather better in the US than in other parts of the world, particularly in Latin America, and especially in Cuba itself. If you ask Cubans what they think - and I have - it's that the base is illegal, and a cynical insult to their national pride and legitimate patriotic feelings. The govt has repeatedly demanded that it be closed, and the territority returned to Cuban sovereignty, but apart from that, what can Cubans do? They can't take it back by force, because that could mean a major war with the most powerful nation in history, over nothing more than a valuable bit of real estate. They can't sue for it in an international court of justice, because the US govt cares nothing for international law. So all they can do is complain, and protest.
In short, the "lease" is bullshit - the camp is just another military occupation
To be fair the US has also killed many people instead of jailing them, particularly terrorists. I don't know what a typical chinese jail looks like but I think I would choose any jail over a torture chamber in gitmo.
evil is as evil does
Having read so many of these comments and replies, I have a couple of random thoughts.
Thought #1: I don't fault anyone for being anti-Bush. It certainly is their perogative. I do think that generalizing all Americans, the US, and American culture and beliefs based on the actions of this administration is haphazard at best. There are many citizens working to change recent US policy. There are many citizens that aren't happy with the actions of this administration, with some attempting to go so far as push impeachment. While not all grassroot efforts don't always succeed, its nice to live in a country where grassroot efforts can happen.
Thought #2: Is it me or does it seem that there are a lot of people who when they become an expert in one or two subjects think they are experts in all subjects. I applaud people for having their own viewpoints, but not when they speak as if they are an authority on the matter. I include many people who have commented thus far and RMS himself.
Thought #3: I like living in a country or under a system where I generally have the right to choose to share what's mine or horde if I want. Say what you will about capitalism, but if one chooses a more "communist" set of values within a capitalist system, there is nothing to stop them from sharing. Well, unless Eugene McCarthy is around.
Thought #4: I caution all in citing history and historical references. History isn't always the facts, no matter whether it is the history written by the "winners" or the history written by those who got the short end of the stick. Listen to it all and read it all, but remember that generally the facts lie somewhere in the middle.
Thought #5: Yes it may be irresponsible and yes it may be insensitive to those who don't have the luxuries I have, but damn it, life is too short. Let's all step back and not take life so seriously.
1) I think the "have you been a member of the communist party" question is a mistake on your part. IIRC the correct question is "were you a memeber of the german nazi party during the war".
I remember seeing both of those questions on the form last time I had to fill one out, a few years back.
The other thing they want to know is whether or not you are planning to assassinate the president.
No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't make you any more credible or better at espousing said beliefs than the next Joe, even though you might think that you are.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
in papua new guinea, murder is an abhorent crime
in saudi arabia, murder is an abhorent crime
in the netherlands, murder is an abhorent crime
morality isn't so relativistic as you believe. certainly, there are differences from place to place, but that doesn't stop you from making universal moral proclamations about universally abhorent practices, because such things do exist
in fact, those universally abhorent practices are where you should start making your moral pronouncements, because by doing so, you establish consensus, rather than divide, amongst the earth's peoples
it is really such a wacky idea to you that your moral agenda should start with the most universally abhorent crimes?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I used to think Dead Kennedys lyrics were over the top, even when Reagan was still president, but not anymore. Jello saw it coming ...
I wouldn't necessarily say that greed is the thing that breaks up communism, it's the lack of motivation of the general populace and the intense corruption of those who administer the system. Just like the Pentium 4, communism looks great on paper but falls well short of the mark in the real world.
Just "gittin-r-done," day after day.
I'm not disagreeing with you. There are plenty of Caribbean countries that you can fly to and then make the hop to Cuba. The point was whether it is legal or not for US citizens to travel there. You can still get into legal trouble for traveling to Cuba without approval regardless of whether you fly direct or travel through 30 countries beforehand.
To be fair the US has also killed many people instead of jailing them, particularly terrorists. I don't know what a typical chinese jail looks like but I think I would choose any jail over a torture chamber in gitmo.
To be fair, with regard to killing terrorists instead of jailing them, what terrorists and where were they killed? As far as I'm aware, the only ones that are/have being/been killed are on the battlefield, in the act of killing soldiers and innocent civilians.
To be fair, as to the 'torture chambers in gitmo', cite please? The Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations have been over gitmo with a fine-toothed comb, and no 'torture chambers' or anything even close exists at gitmo.
As to any claims by the detainees, if *I* were a dedicated jihadist captured and sent to gitmo, if some do-gooder organization came asking, I'd wail and cry and gnash my teeth about all sorts of horrible conditions, daily torture, and my innocence, with the goal of creating as much trouble as I could for the hated unbelievers. Possibly even forcing them to release me, so I could go back to strapping bombs on to men women and children to kill more unbelievers, were they so stupid as to free me.
Cheers!
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
That was a direct quote to me from an agent in US customs at Atlanta, GA. Seeing as it's illegal to travel there, I haven't tried to. So I can't vouch for the veracity of whether they stamp or not (I've heard both). Regardless, my point still stands as does the quote from the State Department website.
Are Guantanamo Prisoners considered POW's now? The last I heard the Bush administration had categorized them as "enemy combatants"; a term intended to hold them beyond the jurisdiction of the Geneva Conventions, the criminal justice system, or any other legal standard that would impose decency upon their captors. I would like to ask Americans this question: Would you find it acceptable if captured Americans were treated exactly the way that Guantanamo Prisoners are treated? Would you not claim that they were being deprived of their rights?
If I were in combat I would want the enemy to know that if he surrenders, he will not be treated as prisoners have been in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. I would want the enemy to surrender willingly, not fight to the death to avoid the fate of an American gulag.
Ad hominems aside, if you had a strong belief in something, and an audience willing to listen - wouldn't you speak?
Last post!
Whenever people complain about the state of affairs in the United States, I hear the excuse "we're still better than such and such country". The argument is absolutely degrading to Americans. We're one of the oldest surviving democracies on the planet. We have no standard against which to measure ourselves but our own ideals. We should never say "we're still better than Cuba", but rather ask ourselves "are we as good as we know we should be?"
I absolutely can't stand the "be thankful you live in America" crowd. It's like the "feel good about ourself no matter what you do" crowd. Self-criticism and self-reflection are the only paths to improvement. Being content with what you have is a recipie for stagnation.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
you americans think you are free? here in the UK . . .
You're in the UK? The country whose prime minister sucks Bush's dick? Go outside and wave at the police cameras you retarded limey.
Say what you want about my country, but I already KNOW that it's a police state. You're so deluded that you think the UK is better?
Get real. You're the 51st state. The only difference is that you're money has a bitch printed on it and you talk like there's a turd in your mouth. Other than that, you're in the same boat.
Your comment actually makes me thing. Remember Reader's Digest? I remember reading it in the 80ties and still remember it was full of stories about KGB prisons in Soviet Russia, about people detained for their beliefs. There always was that 'look at those commie bastards' kind of undertone. If you don't disapprove of KGB prisons it means you like communism
'Funny' how things turn around. Now replace Soviet Russia with US of A, KGB prisons with Gitmo and all occurences of Boris with Abdul and you won't have to edit the rest of the text!
I know many people who, so to speak, have a strong prejudice against US citizens, even though they may know not everyone voted Bush.
One bad choice is excusable, but the US has earned its reputation over many, many years, and the image we have of your country influences the image we have of you. In Argentina, the term 'Yanqui' (Yankee) is used to refer to North Americans in a slightly derogative way. It's not terrible, but you hear the word 'Yanqui' much more often than 'North American'
if you're going to bomb citizens and schools in afghanistan with the justification, that a terrorist group active in the country funded by a seperate country was tolerated by the country's government, then you have to allow a citizen to criticise his own government.
I get this strong urge to ask you not to consider me one of those anti-democratic bullies... So after all I do have some very strong negative feelings against Americans. And yet I also have strong positive feelings about Americans and the US. My attitude is full of contradictory feelings.
Really, on the one hand, in several important ways the US has defended democracy. Among those huge countries that are so unhealthily large and powerful that their power will unavoidably corrupt the people who wield that power, certainly the US is preferable to all the others. But at the same time... One bad choice is excusable, but the US has earned its reputation over many, many years, Indeed, indeed. The persistent disastrous missteps of the US are inexcusable.
It's amazing that a country can be so self-contradictory.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
funny, I read this and thought ... why would the US government try to constantly have an "enemy"
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
I also have mixed feelings about North Americans, but I have mixed feelings towards Argentinians too; you wouldn't believe how often I hear people (particularly right-wing old people) wishing for the return of a military government to 'restore peace and order'. The same military governments the US has supported and helped establish, yes, but nobody's fault-free.
You're a bit late in that assessment. As long as people like Henry Kissinger aren't hanging in the gallows, I'm not holding very high hopes. People seem to have a short memory for this sort of thing, especially when the public media is geared to silence it down.
No, I don't think I was wrong about the communism question, but I now remember that there was a question about being a member of the german nazi party during the war, just like you said. Considering that the war ended 62 years ago, many (most?) people that survived the war have now died from age, making this question less and less relevant. I wonder when they will remove it from the form.
If you were a cuban, wiriting such a comment on cuban slashdot, you can be sure you would have a friendly visit from some gentle state officers very soon.
Your ad could be here!
That's right, I'm Swedish.
When I went to Europe (Spain, Germany, Sweeden, Belgium) they asked me the same thing: What was the purpose of my travel, where I was going to stay, and I needed to show my two-way ticket.When did that happen? I would not be too surprised if this was implemented in the last few years. It sometimes seems like the EU politicians are intent on following in the footsteps of their US masters, doing all their mistakes again. I'd be surprised if this was implemented earlier though.
The reason for my doubt is that I have relatives in the former Warsaw Pact, more specifically in Poland. I've never heard about them being asked such questions upon entering Sweden, not even before the disintegration of the pact. And you'd think that the border controls into and out of the Warsaw Pact would be pretty strict (in fact it was, but on the Polish side, I remember sitting in a queue for five hours so that the polish customs officials could check thoroughly each car coming into the country, but that's another story).
The sad thing is how short people's memories are, and how ill-prepared they are to use their brains rather than allow themselves to be manipulated by politicians.
It wasn't that long ago when any post on Slashdot indicating any kind of anti-Bush sentiment would bring out all the rednecks like fleas on a dog's back. Any question that anyone of Middle Eastern appearance was not inherently evil had them all frothing at the mouth, spitting invective at these left-wing pinko commies.
Now the atrocities are mounting up in Cuba, Iraq and Afghanistan, just a few people are starting to think about what is happening, but few will stop to wonder about how they were played like an accordion before.
Would they let you in if you ticked Yes in the form? If not, what would be the difference between lying and telling the trush if one of those questions applied to you? You would be kicked out in both cases, but lying would let you enter and stay for a while until the police found out what you were. Seems like lying would be the better alternative. Is there any downside?
"To be fair, with regard to killing terrorists instead of jailing them, what terrorists and where were they killed? As far as I'm aware, the only ones that are/have being/been killed are on the battlefield, in the act of killing soldiers and innocent civilians."
Well there was a very famous case of a supposed terrorist being killed by a missile launched from a drone in kuwait or someplace. They guy was getting in a car and boom!. No need for messy trials or jails or nothing.
Then there was the case of the army admitting that many people were killed in afghanistan under US custody. The army coroner ruled the deaths murder.
Then there are the cases of the "disappeared" people. People the US announced that they had captured but nobody has seen since.
"o be fair, as to the 'torture chambers in gitmo', cite please? "
The US has admitted to conducting waterboarding, subjecting to extreme tempratures, sensory deprivation, "stress positions", and force feeding by tubes through the nose. These acts are considered to be torture by all international conventions and the US has admitted to using these methods on a regular basis. The US claims they are not torture but they are alone in that.
Correction to the above. Republicans claim these acts are not torture. Only republicans. Everybody else acknowledges that these are acts of torture.
"The Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations have been over gitmo with a fine-toothed comb, and no 'torture chambers' or anything even close exists at gitmo."
Nope. The red cross is not allowed unannounced visits and they are not allowed to interview detainees alone.
"As to any claims by the detainees, if *I* were a dedicated jihadist captured and sent to gitmo, if some do-gooder organization came asking, I'd wail and cry and gnash my teeth about all sorts of horrible conditions, daily torture, and my innocence, with the goal of creating as much trouble as I could for the hated unbelievers."
How convenient!. That's a really clever way to dismiss all claims of torture by everybody in every US prison everywhere in the world.
Anyway like I said the US itself has admitted comitting these acts, the armies own doctors have ruled the deaths murder. The only people who deny systematic torture by the US military and intelligence are republicans and let's face it how can anybody take anything any republican says at face value? People like you care more about your party then the constitution, morals, human rights, justice, fairness, law and order, or the country.
Keep denying that the US does not torture anybody. You and the rest of the 25% of the american public are a disgrace to humanity but it's important that we amplify your voices so that the rest of decent america knows people like you still exist. We can't get complacent. As long as people like you are around we must keep up our diligence.
evil is as evil does
>He should stick to what he's good at, writing software.
I take it you aren't including Emacs in that statement.
1. To me 'enemies' in this case seems to be a few spanish peasants who didn't like serving their US overseas overlords. How was this any different from the Boston tea party? 2. It is 100% there are innocent people at Guantanamo, just as it is 100% there are terrorists as well. The problem is how they are being handled. 3. To some extent, yeah, RMS seems like a communist. But to the very same extent Bush seems like a dictator.
I actually was going through all the posts to get to this one, I knew it'd be here..
You're an arse with no idea what you're talking about.
Richard Stallman has accomplished more and done more for computing than you have.
He has accomplished VASTLY more and done more in his life than you have.
Of these facts I am completely certain.
Pigfucking closeminded so called thinkers, who deride everyone that has a twinge of ideology to their thought have drained the political landscape. Not a bit of honesty, vision, or hope can be accepted at face value. The end result is the same repetitive speeches and promises for the masses and a quick and insightful wag of the finger from Any Given Newscaster describing any public voice with anything new to say as over the top, crazy. unpalatable, safely ignorable as a result of their radicalism. Most importantly, naive.
That is to say that you and your know it all ilk are depriving the world of its balls.
I have read the book put out on Richard Stallman, read many things he has written throughout the years. I have never been able to just toss his ideas aside. I am too aware of an important truth: The world is an imperfect system, down to every function of ecology, sociology, or economy, that you could describe. So I keep my ears wide open in hope that eventually a new model will emerge, improving our lot to the embarrassment of you with your tail between your legs, claiming sage wisdom that is nothing but a veiled admission of intellectual cowardice. Probably a few snippy Dennis Miller quotes coming to your mind there, eh? I can just hear you now, the oily word "liberal" slipping off your tongue. Too many like you here on Slashdot if you ask me.
I think this is a reflection of your ability to distinguish between who is doing the evils and who is being subjected to them. As an American, I find this attitude not only honest but refreshing when considering it is coming from an outsider. Usually, it is Americans reading the messages about how everything is evil and such are the Americans then having to sit back on wonder who the hell they are actually referring to. It is amazing when the government goes power crazed and usurps mosts of the freedom and the rest of the world think there is some consensus of American people supporting it.
It is really the plague of living in a free country, many people support different actions of the government for different reasons but none of us support everything it does for the same reasons. From outside looking in, it must appear that most people support both the extreme and the exact opposite at the same time. I think the fact is that you only get this impression when looking at all the individual causes and grouping them to some common cause which is linked to the governments screw ups. But I guess that is what we deserve when American politics is divided to the point that we will elect one person over another based on their position over just one or two things. Bush was elected twice not because he was the best leader, He was just the lessor of the two evils running and the only person the second time around who had their own ideas that wasn't afraid to say something about them in public.
The situation is really a lot like a candy store that has a few things no one else has and when the kids go in to buy this or that. Someone makes the connection that all kids like that candy store when they are only going there for one or two things that aren't the same thing the other kids are going there for.
(why is it that) the sons and daughters of democratic countries have their sympathies with the treatment of mostly terrorist assholes
The USA is a lot better than many of the nasty totalitarian dictatorships round the world: there are too many, and they commit terrible abuses. But a lot of people outside the USA get quite fed up with the holier-than-thou rhetoric that sometimes issues from your fine country. Some of the claims made about how you value high moral standards are transparently at odds with activities that we see your authorities undertaking. Your country engages in activities that others find morally dubious. You form alliances with countries with terrible human rights records and then tell us in some cases that these countries are wonderful examples of democracy and respecters of human rights.
It's the hypocrisy that gets a lot of people. You are a great nation and deep in their hearts a lot of people are grateful that it's your country that is the world's single superpower, and many people are aware that it is because of your relatively high standards of openness and press freedom that we get to hear about the negative aspects of your country.
But negative aspects there are, and I think you'd win more praise by addressing faults, and admitting problems, and seeking to improve aspects of your system, rather than claiming the moral high ground when quite clearly in some cases you don't have it.
Really, referring to people locked up in Guantanamo Bay as "mostly terrorist assholes" when you or I don't know, and can't know, because these people are denied access to the Red Cross, or independent legal support, doesn't help your argument.
here..so people know what it's about. Keep in mind this video presentation is a controlled environment where the simulated interrogation victim knows full well he can stop it at any time (unlike a real interrogation environment). Seems as awful as drowning - if not worse.
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there you will find chinese who believe china can do no wrong
go to new delhi, there you will find indians who believe india can do no wrong
go to jakarta, there you will find indonesians who think indonesia can do no wrong
etc., etc.
why do you think the usa should be singled out for a crime every country in the world is guilty of?
in other words, what you wrote above about the usa is 100% true... and every country in the world thinks sunlight comes out of it's asshole too. you want to prosecute the usa especially for a crime all countries of the world partake in: arrogant blind self-centered nationalism
why is your disillusionment with the existence of the usa's nationalism such a shock to you?
unless you actually swallowed that bs for some time before?
the the usa should suffer because you believed something about the usa no one should have believed in the first place?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Ok, I have to admit that I haven't read Das Capital. Still somehow I am under the impression that Marx advocated non-violent, natural change from capitalism into communism. He did not support revolution as means to achieve a communist state. And natural harmonious evolution of social system hardly entails excessive use of authority.
yet another naive idealist, building castles in the sky about the shape of human societies, without the slightest understanding of actual human nature
dude, there's been a million like you before, and a million more will come after, and you're all the same: fueled by an earnest naivete whose fatal flaw is a lack of understanding of the good, the bad, and the ugly of essential human nature, of whatever society, of whatever time period
there's nothing wrong with idealism. but there's everything wrong with your particular brand if idealism: built upon a bad foundation. that bad foundation is a poor understanding of the human beings around you, who supposedly would someday inhabit your wonderful fantasies of perfect societies. but those perfect societies you dream about will never, ever exist, simply because such societies have to be made of real breathing human beings. real human beings who behave in ways which render your fantasies impossible
in other words, whatever society you imagine that is so ideal, is impossible. strictly because your enemy is not the social injustice of classism, or whatever bogeyman you've decided to label as the source of the evils that rot society, your enemy is the simple human beings around you, as humanity simply is. you need to look more closely at essential human behavior, as it exists outside all cultures, all classes, all sexes, all races, all time periods
in that compositie human, you will find the defeat of your high minded utopianism. not in the robber baron classes of the modern west. you've conveniently labeled them as the source of that which bedevils social justice today, but they're not the source
but keep at it, child. you have the earnestness of a teenager who has a lot of philosophy books under his belt, but no real world experience. you'll get that real world experience someday, and then you'll know what i'm talking about
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You can see him singing it a capella in this video.
You must be new here.
No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't make you any more credible or better at espousing said beliefs than the next Joe, even though you might think that you are.
I agree. I'm just saying Stallman has the right to make controversial comments, if that's the choice he wants to make. Given the comments we've sometimes heard from lawmakers whose job is to run the country, it's kinda refreshing to hear from people who are capable of more than sound-bite commentary.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
No, they're not. The songs are terrible.
Keep this in mind: US foreign policy was far from blameless before 9/11, and if it seldom has been so incompetent, it has at times been just as misguided.
Yet the free world still stood behind us on 9/12/2001.
Which means there is a reason to hope that it will again on 1/20/2009.
US liberals are actually harder on the US than their overseas counterparts. Its easier to see that US foreign policy has been a mix of good and bad if you don't feel responsible for the bad.
Imagining the hatred and contempt of the rest of the world at the current administration's neocon blockheadedness oversimplifies things. Worse, it reinforces the neocon position that there's no point in talking to the rest of the world unless it is over the barrel of a gun. You cannot deny that anti-US hatred and contempt exists, but it's only half the story.
The true story of the way the rest of the world looks at us is one of a powerful, deeply rooted ambivalence. The current administration's words and deeds have stretched that ambivalence in the direction of hatred, but I believe that that ambivalence is creating a powerful restorative force in the other direction. The world may hate to love us, but it also hates to hate us. One sign of this is how the foreign press covered Speaker Pelosi's trip to Syria. There was an almost palpable sense of relief that the light at the end of the tunnel of US unilateralism had at last been sighted.
We had an unusual moment of opportunity after 9/11, which was squandered. But it was not an unique opportunity. We are living in the last days of the twentieth century, whatever the calendar may say. The historical period that future historians will call the twenty first century will start the day George W. Bush leaves office. The free world is weary of bickering with the US, and being treated with contempt by US leaders. Sheer relief will present America with another unusual historical turning point. It is critical that we do not squander this rare second chance. We face a number of severe challenges in the twenty first century, of which the global war on terror is only one. And it is not necessarily the most serious.
None of these are challenges that the US can handle alone, nor are they challenges the rest of the world can hope to meet successfully without constructive US cooperation.
The US has never faced a more critical election than the next US Presidential election. The character of this administration will place its unique stamp on international affairs in a way that no administration has done since the days of the Marshall Plan.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think on both sides of the ocean we need to learn to see that on the other side of the ocean there are vast numbers of different people with different backgrounds, different opinions, different political leanings, living in different countries/states, also experiencing differences between North and South, differences between city and countryside, differences between young and old, and so on and on and on.
Hopefully given time we'll understand this better and better.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Replace "German" with "Canadian" and you get another example of the US handing over a non-american to a 3rd country to be tortured: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
How was this story not tagged with 'slownewsday'
I would think most of our differences are fabricated by not knowing these things. Most of our prejudices are based from the media attention the most severe of our societies get. And sadly, our leaders positions don't necessarily reflect the rest of the country's.
I too am hoping for a time were we can all understand this better.
Expect the questionnaire to be "enhanced" soon: "Have you ever indulged in music/movie piracy? Have you ever downloaded music from allofmp3.com?"
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Maybe the fact they are from a country were this is normal gave them the inclining that they weren't going through anything special.
When I was a kid, we got new carpet and had to take our shoes off at the door. Before that we always had to take our hicking boots off and put on regular shoes.
When I goto someone's house for whatever reason, If the carpet looks knew, I start taking my shoes off because I know there is this thing people go though thinking that you have to take special care of new carpet (probably because it costs so much to have installed in the first place). One day a friend commented on how it was weird not being able to walk on the new carpet with shoes on. I didn't think twice about it.
This could very well be the situation with family coming from one of these states. You on the other hand, don't see this so it immediately caught your attention. People don't talk about every day ordinary things. How long would a conversation last if you tell someone one your way to work, you stopped at a red light and had two lights already green that you didn't have to stop at. At have that be the entire point of the story too.
> but the squandering occurred before the Iraq war
> Here in Sweden the two wars are seen as very different, and in many ways
> diametrical opposites
True, true. I was living in Sweden at the time. However, I am Dutch, and in the prelude to the Afghanistan war, the Dutch government issued a statement that basically said "Tread carefully here. Invading Afghanistan without due research into its justifications and without due research into the consequences, be they negative or positive, of such an invasion".
The US administration basically turned around and slapped the Dutch government on the fingers with a "Dragons be here, you're either for us or against us" type of statement.
Consequently, members of the Royal Marine Corps are still in Afghanistan, which is costing Dutch tax-payers an arm and a leg. I still have to see irrefutable proof that the invasion of Afghanistan was a must-do, justified, and bona fide affair.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are two very different animals, but I wouldn't call either of them "justified" off the cuff. Besides, the Afghans have been known to hold their own at the peak of the power of the Soviets' Conventional army, so I don't even know if there'd be a point even if it were justified.
Recently I saw a rather scary documentary on Neo-Conservatives in the US where it was stated Germany and France are dubbed "strategic Enemies" of the US. I almost (almost) hope that at some point in time the US will invade the EU. It's about time certain induhviduals learned the true meaning of the words "strategic Enemies". Global war to prove a point? It's horrible, but if it happens I'll definitely pick up a rifle to enter the debate.
Sorry, but Cuba isn't anywhere near a "totalitarian country". Lessee, the pre-revolution Romania *was*. On the other hand, Cuba has, I believe, a 95% literacy rate (the US is *way* down from there); has a real national healtchcare system, and exports doctors, as opposed to the US, with between 15% and 20% with *no* healthcare, etc, etc.
.sig:
But, of course, those who've been posting more than half the responses to this story a) didn't read the translation of Guantanemaro; b) believe that everyone in Gitmo (gee, the US is holding onto Cuban territory - how 'bout giving Casto Miami?) is an Evil, High-Level terrorist (and not a single one of you little shits believes in the US Constitution (i.e, no "cruel and unusual punishment" - I suggest you get yourselves thrown into jail for a few weeks, or months, or years, and see how you feel about it); those that are old enough probably, during the Clinton administration, said all kinds of bullshit about it being "good" to have a divided gov't, with a Dem administration, and a Republican Congress, but now want a one-party state, all Republican, and the over 50% of Americans who disagree should have *your* neofascist, sorry, 'neocon', fundamentalist Christian agenda down our throats.
Thanks, Richard.
mark
ObDisclaimer: yes, I *am* married to a convicted terrorist....
carefully chosen
Libertarian IT workers who watch their jobs go overseas should derive joy from geographic shifts in employment. Their "dog eat dog" creed requires them to be happy whenever the marketplace finds a way to pay workers less and increase business owners' profits. - Roblimo Miller, NewsForge.com
I don't really find Stallman's lyrics on Guantanamo ill-informed, embarrassing rantings. Basically he's echoing stuff the entire world has been saying for years now. Then again, we're all ranting, raving commies, aren't we?
All things considered, I kind of liked his rendition of the song, though. Not bad at all, whatever the message. So on top of being a bit of a lunatic, Stallman just made me thing "that sounds neat" for quite a lot longer than 30 seconds.
I don't really understand what your beef is with recording artists, though. You seem to think they are all ill-informed, embarrassing rich dilettantes. Does this mean you got denied a recording contract some time in your past?
Are you calling Johnny Cash, Woodie Guthrie, Frank Zappa, Steely Dan, Bob Dylan, Cornelis Vreeswijk and many other meaningful political/social commentators in Music throughout the years ill-informed rich dilettantes? Have you seen interviews with Marilyn Manson recently? That bloke looks rather well-informed to me, even if he dresses somewhat weirdly.
I love the positive and hopeful picture that you paint. What I like most about it is that it sounds quite plausible.
It does depend on several things developing in ways that will make it possible. But there is hope that this will happen. Let's hope.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Next you're going to say country music singers should just shut up...
I believe you've ment to put full stop here. Or maybe to add obligatory "Wait a minute..."
You know, I'm not seeing many comments about free software here.....
And I know the story's not about that, but Stallman is undeniably a leader in the Free Software movement. This action DOESN'T HELP FREE SOFTWARE AT ALL!! Critics of Stallman call him a Communist and tar and feather him whit that label, and hell maybe he is. But the problem is that there are people like me out there that wholeheartedly support the Free Software movement, but loathe Communism. People like me know that Stallman can be a quite out there on stuff, but agree with him on many of his principles, but this kind of stuff just gives a boatload of ammo to his critics in the "Licensed Software" movement.
RMS should choose where he wants to be on this and pick his steps more carefully. Some of his supporters in software don't see eye to eye with him on this one.... And I know HE doesn't care, but the next time someone talks about Free Software with their PHB they might have to refute the line, isn't that stuff advocated by commies like RMS. He sure made the job of advocating Free Software a bit harder, but I guess he does that quite a bit. It just gets a little frustrating.
Pigfucking closeminded so called thinkers, who deride everyone that has a twinge of ideology
Hey, now! As a pigfucker, I resent being linked to close-minded assholes like the OP. I feel you have to be pretty open-minded to consider taking up a hobby like pigfucking. It's certainly not a popular pastime, though at least it gets you some exercise out in the fresh air.
Now excuse me, Miss Piggy's wigglin' her butt again.
Why is it always the people who have never lived under a dictatorship are the first to call the US one?
Go live in Cuba for a while (not just visit) and write a report. And not as Castro's ass-buddy either.
We should be multiplying by the signum function and averaging that... /g[k]
g[k] = f[k] * sgn(f[k])
|/f[k]| =
RMS is just silly.
It would be easier to compute in a 2s compliment system too, eh?
It sounds like a very extremist view. You're not talking about mainstream US Conservatives, are you? For all its faults, I find it hard to believe that the Bush administration would be so delusional. I almost (almost) hope that at some point in time the US will invade the EU. It's about time certain induhviduals learned the true meaning of the words "strategic Enemies". That could be a huge disaster for humanity. The next really big challenge for humanity in the coming decades is finding substitutes for petroleum, both as energy source and for the production of fertilizers for agriculture that feeds billions. For the research into substitutes we need some degree of peace and prosperity. We need that while there is still lots of oil left. I almost (almost) hope that at some point in time the US will invade the EU. [...] but if it happens I'll definitely pick up a rifle to enter the debate. I find it extremely unlikely that the EU would stand a chance in a war against the US. Consider this (scroll down a little). The US is explicitly geared toward having more military might than any other power. The US also has an absurdly strong military industry and lobby, always striving for more profit and more power. Europe is geared toward having just barely enough to make sure neighbors like Russia don't start getting ideas. Europe is definitely not geared toward military conflict with the US.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Hmm. I thought the lyrics and concept were cool... And sad, very sad.
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Actually, the green or white tourist visa paper you fill out on the plane or in the arrival hall works. I read a story once about someone who had agreed to smuggle some narcotics, and then dutifully checked "yes" on whether he was bringing an illegal substance into the country. He was then dutifully arrested.
... aqnd in a free country you are allowed to hold shitty ideas, whether it's communism (which noone have proved RMS supports - like most of the victims of McCarthy) or that Iran should be nuked.
Then again, I guess when you say "communism" you refer to the Chinese and Russian systems, but they were not communist as defined by theory.
Or in outer space once everything is automatically fabricated by machines. The money-less Federation in Star Trek, as described by Picard in "First Contact", is a communist paradise where everyone gives according to ability and takes according to need.
I thought Stallman wrote Bad Emacs and Gosling wrote Good Emacs?
Habeus corpus, lack thereof.
IX CCXLIX XVII II CLVII CXVI CCXXVII XCI CCXVI LXV LXXXVI CXCVII XCIX LXXXVI CXXXVI CXCII
...hey, nobody ever pointed out B&Massa's 3 Da Skips or Jiguma's Guantanamo Vacation, did they? And that was when something could be done to free David Hicks (for instance) before he pleaded guilty in the kangaroo court the land of the free trumped him in. Fighting for freedom by denying people the rights of liberty is like, well... good luck getting the virginity back, Debbie of Dallas
"I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
Yup, just as I expected. No cites to verifiable facts, just conspiracy theories and wild claims from left-wing rumour mill websites that love to make wild claims with no actual, provable facts to back them up.
As to what the rest of the world may say, quite frankly they'd rather surrender to the terrorists in the hopes they'd be the last to be killed. They hate the U.S. no matter what we were to do anyways, as their countries are no longer relevant on the world stage, and they would rather blame the big evil U.S., than to admit they made their own bed.
Make no mistake, there is a war that was declared by an entire wing of Islam against all infidels. There is no diplomacy or negotiation with such religious fanatics. They will go to any extremes necessary to kill anyone that stands in the way of making all western countries into Islamic states.
You whine about how we treat people that are *known* to have committed atrocities, caught in the act of terrorism, while saying nothing about the atrocities they have, and continue, to commit every day. Where is your anger and vitriol for the acts committed by these fanatics against innocent men, women, and children by the hundreds or more every month?
Waterboarding?? Oh, please! If *you* were captured by a terrorist group and about to be the star in yet another beheading, I'd bet you'd have no problem with the military doing whatever it took to extract the location you were being held at, and if you deny that, you're full of it.
As long as there are people like you around to defend, protect, and enable these monsters, they know their chances are excellent to murder you, me, our families, and our children.
P.S.- I am not, and never have been, a Republican. I hold equal contempt for the Democrats and the Republicans. They are both cowardly, self-serving panderers with only their own interests at heart.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Individualists are all selfish misanthropes as well.
Some are, some aren't. Show me an individualist with a body count anywhere close to Stalin or Mao, and you might have a leg to stand on.
Maybe there's a lesson here?
There is, but I'm not holding my breath for you to learn it.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
People used to be all 'liberty or death', but it turned out to be such a hassle.
Apparently the Left would have us treat Al Qaeda better, as opposed to worse, than combatants living up to Geneva. Talk about assbackwards thinking!
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
> You're not talking about mainstream US Conservatives
No. The true conservatives strive to Conserve (no pun) the values put forth in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, and as such a group that I respect. We don't always agree, but I respect 'm.
I'm talking about Neo-Conservatives, indeed the more extremist cronies. They are moving up the value chain though, having various advisory positions to the Pentagon and the White House.
They're the people whose main fans are the dip shits that walk around in Pro-War demonstrations with an American flag tattooed on their face and a banner saying "Iraq now, France's next!".
I fully realize they don't make up the whole spectrum of the American population, just like Jean-Marie Le Pen doesn't speak for all of France.
> That could be a huge disaster for humanity.
Indeed. Although there is nothing like a fresh war to spur innovation and economic growth.
> extremely unlikely that the EU would stand a chance in a war against the US
Firstly, there'd be allies cropping up from strange places. Secondly, you could be surprised how fast the EU could gear itself to war when presented with an external enemy. I think that the exploits of the British, the Norwegians and the Germans in WWII has proven what people in the EU are made of recently, but moreover if you read about the Anglo-Dutch wars, the Swedish wars and so on in History, I doubt the EU should be underestimated.
Hell... The US isn't even able to deal with Iraq properly. Meanwhile, every single male in countries like Switzerland and Luxembourg is trained to pick up a gun if a threat arises, while they've got PLENTY of cash to do so. The statement you make is rather short sighted. Definitely in the longer run. They might walk in there, but they will never get out.
> Europe is definitely not geared toward military conflict with the US.
Ach, history proves man-kind is infinitely flexible and fast to adapt.
Look I can't be responsible for your stupidity, ignorance and laziness. All the events I tallked about were widely published. There were congressional hearings about it. They were all over CNN, BBC, Washington post, and even fox news.
Apparently you are completely 100% ignorant of what is going in this regard. You have never heard of the abizaid report, you have never read it, you have no idea what it contains. You have never read the papers published by the DOJ describing what does and does not constitute torture. You did not tune into the congressional hearings when Gonzales was asked about his memo(s).
I can't be expected to educate every fucking retard who lives in this kind of ignorance. It would take more then a year to dig up every article and then present it to you and you probably would not read them anyway. Heck I don't think you CAN read them at this point.
Not only are you an ignorant fuck you are also morally corrupt. Anybody who advocates torture (waterboarding is torture) is evil.
Finally presuming you are a male and you are under 40 (typical for slashdot) you are also a coward. You should be going out there to kill some muslims yourself if you hate them so much. Go get your hands on a couple of a-rabs and peel their skin off in iraq. Nobody will say anything, they will applaud and film you.
And please don't deny you are a republican. I know why you would want to but it makes you look even worse. At least be man enough admit your voting patterns.
evil is as evil does
Yup, ad-hominum attacks. The last resort of those without facts or reason on their side. FYI I'm *well* over 50, and I *did* do my share of actual real killing on the battlefield, watched my buddies die beside me, and along the way, got a dose of real-world life-and-death reality along with memories that haunt my dreams every single night. All so you could be free to voice rants against "the man" on slashdot.
Also, just so you know, I've voted independent in every single election. Just because you are blinded by ignorance and ideology doesn't mean you can pigeon-hole everyone that disagrees with you, just to make yourself feel better about your own lack of a grasp on history, war, religious fanaticism, basic human nature, and reality.
If you, with these fantasies, are an average example of what's in store for this country as its' citizens and leaders, then I'm glad my age and the injuries and sickness I've suffered in defense of this country will mean, hopefully, I won't be around to see your and this countries' demise. The saddest part is, if people like you inherit the leadership of this country, the enemies of this country won't need to fire a shot, as you'll be too busy finding things to try to appease them to notice until it's far too late and tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands or millions die, all so you can feel righteous.
Try studying a little history before it's too late for you and this country. Please, for your own and anyone you loves' sake. I truly, despite your personal attacks, have the love for you of a fellow countryman.
I'm not of your generation, I've spent a long time seeing the real world in action, and *living* the history you've probably only read about in books or seen in old documentaries, if at all. So please take this in earnest: You've been lied to by *both* extremes, but there *is* a very real life-and-death worldwide struggle for power over the earth by the west and the east.
There are *no* rules or morality or mercy or surrender the enemy recognizes. If too few people come to grips with this reality too late, the slaughter will exceed anything ever dreamed of. From this point in time forward, there is no avoiding a very nasty and prolonged struggle, and many many people *are* going to die. No matter what. At this point, it's inevitable.
The only thing left is to try to win the struggle as fast as possible, hopefully before WMDs are used, and attempt to keep the number of deaths as low as practically possible.
"He started it!" and "That's not fair!" is for the playground, and not for facing a death-struggle for world domination with those that recognize no rule of law, mercy, morality, or surrender. Not playing is not an option. It's a death sentence for many millions.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
The sad and scary thing is that the current U.S. government IS a reflection of it's citizens. Not all of it's citizens, maybe not even a majority. But at least significant minority of U.S. citzens are scared out of their wits that "them foreigners" are gonna come and kill them or their babies.
American media has been extremely complicit in supporting the government because a large subsection of the public believes in the Bush administration. They've forged unbreakable links of loyalty and will defend that government from any perceived slight. This puts the media in a difficult position, if they're not nice to the government then they will be inundated with complaints and harrassment from organizations that actively support the government and it's war policies, if they are nice, then they get the same treatment from those who don't support the government.
Too many U.S. citizens are willing to make any excuse necessary for the government because they think Bush will protect them as long as he's allowed to do whatever he wants. They refuse to recognize the misbehaviour of the Bush whitehouse because they have invested too much of their hope for safety and security in the government. Asking hard questions about the government means dealing with fear and betrayal, and there's no way they want to do that again.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Now maybe I'm going off topic, but anyway: In Sweden, using your shoes indoors is usually frowned upon. It may be related to the fact that wall-to-wall carpeting is quite unusual, and getting even more so over time. Common floor types are parquet or parquet-imitating laminate in bedrooms and living room (sometimes in kitchens too) and floor tiles or linoleum in wet areas (such as bathrooms) and halls (the room just inside the entrance). Carpets are mostly non-fixed, and usually covers only part of the floor.
Imagine how it would be a non issue for you to come to my house and I asked you to remove your shoes before coming in. Now imagine How someone else who doesn't have this custom doesn't. Think about who is going to be more willing to mention something about it.
I picked shoes and carpet because it is common enough that quite a few people must have come across it at some time. It sounds even more common when it is customary in other countries too. In America, Most people only take their shoes off if they are tracking mud or something in. Unless there is new flooring. It isn't really done that much here unless something is new. Most houses and apartments have a square of tile or linoleum to make an area to remove your shoes. And I would bet most Americans don't know why it is even there.
"Yup, ad-hominum attacks. The last resort of those without facts or reason on their side. "
Nothing else works with a republitard like yourself. All you know is hate. Facts are incabable of entering your brain and you live in the depths of ignorance which is hard to fathom by ordinary people.
"I'm *well* over 50, and I *did* do my share of actual real killing on the battlefield, watched my buddies die beside me, and along the way, got a dose of real-world life-and-death reality along with memories that haunt my dreams every single night."
So you are vietnam vet are you. Well good for you. I am sure the reason you are pro torture is because your experiences killing gooks have fucked you up. Get some help.
"I truly, despite your personal attacks, have the love for you of a fellow countryman."
Sorry my generation does not see the world in stark "us" and "them" like yours did. There are good americans and then there are americans like you.
"but there *is* a very real life-and-death worldwide struggle for power over the earth by the west and the east."
Only in the eyes of the most ignorant and the stupidest. People who are deprived of reality and fed a steady dose of AM radio tend to feel that way. Why don't you try reading for a change?
"The only thing left is to try to win the struggle as fast as possible, hopefully before WMDs are used, and attempt to keep the number of deaths as low as practically possible."
The fact that you think that's the ONLY THING LEFT TO DO shows how stupid you are. You are totaly bereft of any intelligence or imagination. The only thing you can think to do is to go on a murderous rage. Not surprising from a repulitard.
Why don't you think a little harder and see if you can think of at least one other thing to try.
The greatest thing that can happen for this world now is that somebody puts a bullet in your head. We need less people like you in the world and we definately need less people like you in the US.
evil is as evil does
The greatest thing that can happen for this world now is that somebody puts a bullet in your head.
Just...wow. I guess when you lose a debate, the only thing left for you is to kill the messenger. Way to make your point. I'm sure it will be taken with all the...ummm...'seriousness' it deserves.
With brilliant, reasoned, factual debate like yours I'm sure you'll go far. I can see I'm done here..there's no use continuing this battle of wits with the unarmed.
Good day, sir.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
"Just...wow. I guess when you lose a debate, "
Lose a debate? With who? You? The fuckhead who thinks torture is fine and dandy and who can not imagine any other way to solve our problems then to go to war? Lose a debate with you? Don't make me laugh.
"With brilliant, reasoned, factual debate like yours I'm sure you'll go far. I can see I'm done here..there's no use continuing this battle of wits with the unarmed."
Listen you need mental help. You killed lots of people in vietnam and that's got you all fucked up. You see enemies under every corner, you think the entire muslim world has declared war on you. You think the only possible way to go forward from this point is to start killing muslims like when you were killing gooks in vietnam.
You are sick. The soldiers you are sending to kill so you can get a vicarious hard on are going to end up just as mentally ill as you. Think about that for a second. They will all want to torture and kill for the rest of their lives just like you do.
For the sake of our country, for the sake of humanity either kill yourself or get help.
evil is as evil does
Considering the flexibility that you mention, Europe is also far more flexible and adaptable than the US, because of our constant debating and negotiating and compromising in the EU, to painstakingly step by step search out common grounds where our many different nations and cultures can reach agreements. The US by contrast is shockingly authoritarian and rigid, geared toward black-or-white views like "Either you're with us or against us."
Indeed, Iraq shows how astonishingly rigid and short-sighted the US can be, with their total inability to understand what Europe saw from the outset, that the Iraq war was very likely to lead to explosively increasing terrorism.
Having seen your analysis I'm far less pessimistic about what would happen, should the US get crazed enough to invade Europe.
Even so, it could become quite a disaster, where precious resources would be squandered. Humanity needs to find solutions to urgent problems before it's too late.
What really needs to happen is that the US needs to come to their senses and understand that Europe and the US need to be allies, and need to respect each others as allies. No childish outbursts of "Either you're with us or against us." Negotiations are needed, giving and taking, searching for common grounds. Our similarities are greater than our differences and we have common goals. We should work together.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
> Our similarities are greater than our differences and we have common goals. We should work together.
This doesn't just go for the US and Europe, but also for Israel and the league of Arab nations for that matter. Shakespeare wrote the following quotation in the 1500's to make people identify with the Jewish plight:
"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes?
Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions,
senses, affections, passions?
fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons,
subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer,
as a Christian is?
If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die?
and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"
Now, in 2007 in Israel, I use the same quote to try and explain to the Israelis that the Arabs, Palestinians and Lebanese are human too. I think this world is too full of zealots that refuse to realize that most people bleed red, even racist mother@#$!#s.
Indeed!
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.