Open Source Linux Phone Goes On Sale

An anonymous reader writes "Sean Moss-Pultz has just announced on the OpenMoko mailing list that the Neo1973 is finally available for purchase. OpenMoko.com is now taking orders via credit card. OpenMoko intends to 'free your phone' through a hardware-independent and open source user interface backed by the Linux kernel. This device could very well stand as a competitor to the more expensive Apple iPhone, but at a fraction of the price and with no vendor lock-in. Although the devices in this release cycle (GTA01) are mainly intended for developers, the up-and-coming devices targeted to the consumer market (GTA02) will also feature WiFi capabilities, a 3D acceleration unit, and 256MB of on-board flash. Both units will use the MicroSD card interface for removable storage and have USB client / host capabilities. For a full feature list, check out OpenMoko.com or the OpenMoko Wiki."

Comments

Awesome

[nicolas.kassis]

I really want a linux phone. It's pretty cheap at 300$. One thing bothers me, do providers allow random phones to be used on there network? Do some cellular providers block phones that they don't approve off?

Re:Awesome

[Nossie]

do providers allow random phones to be used on there network?

yes, thats what an unlocked phone is....

as to your question about blocking phones...
if the imei number is correct and its FCC approved I doubt they would have any reason to block you

Re:Awesome

[epall]

Yes! I'm pretty sure T-Mobile is chill with you sticking your SIM in any phone you want.

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

I have Cingular, which is now ATT. My phone is a Ericsson S710a, which I picked out after a lot of research. Plus, I paid a lot of money for it two years ago.

I went into USCellular, who I have used in the past, and as I am now back in their coverage area, I wouldn't mind going back. I asked if I could bring my phone with me, and they told me no; reason: they do not use SIM chips in their phones. They told me they could transfer all my stuff off and put it on a penny phone. I walked out.

I went across the street to Verizon, who I do not like for their business practices, and asked the same question there. I was told no, reason given was they did not use SIM chips and also because my phone was not EDGE, only 3G.

My phone is both EDGE and GSM, I have the option to use both or GSM only. I have co-workers who use Verizon and their phones have SIM chips in them.

I believe it was the Supreme Court who ruled that consumers could unlock their phones to take them elsewhere. I think that was last year. So I know I can take it with me. But it seems that other providers do not want my business. They only want my business if I purchase a new phone and a nice two-year contract.

I don't want to stay with ATT, but for now I am. I will be looking at USCellular again soon, and will probably go higher up the chain to get my answers about my phone.

However, I am very interested in this Linux phone. I can't wait to see them when they come out.

Re:Awesome

[hunterkll]

Replying to an AC isn't the brightest thing to do but....

ATT/Cingular and T-Mobile are the only two major GSM carriers in the United States.

The others are usually all CDMA carriers and the phones are completely incompatable on the network technology level.

and re those vzw phones with sim cards, it was either RIMM cards or sim cards for overseas usage of the phone, they serve no use on the continental US side of the pond

Re:Awesome

[supersat]

AFAIK, only T-Mobile and AT&T use GSM in the United States. Everyone else uses CDMA (with the exception of Nextel, which uses iDEN). I think Verizon might offer GSM/CDMA combo phones for use outside their coverage area, but since GSM is not what they run on their own network, they won't let you use a pure GSM phone.

Re:Awesome

[MikeFM]

I'm buying. I was waiting for this. Much cooler than the iPhone IMO. :)

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

She told me you were out of credit.

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for your comment. Also thank you to the other comment by supersat.

I posted the AC comment.

I appreciate the information from both of you. That is the type of information that I needed. If I had gone farther up the chain I might have received that information from either company. Not sure if the in-store personnel did not know, or just did not feel like giving it out.

I want to keep my phone. It is not locked down and I have it working the way I want it to. However, I will be looking into the Linux Phone. I had already told myself last week that if there was an open phone then I would probably switch. I will wait and see how it comes out. I will be looking into the linked pages in the summary when I get some time, and when the server is not being stressed.

Once again, thank you to both of you. Only posting one comment, otherwise I would have to wait awhile before writing the other thank you.

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, ... I originally wrote this post. I should have specified that it's a GSM phone. I'm in Germany at the moment and I don't think CDMA phones exist here, and they've gone out of style quite quickly in Canada too (where I"m originally from).

Bottom line:

If you're using a GSM phone with a removable SIM card, and you purchased a phone with a) no vendor lock-in, and b) no SIM lock-in, then you can literally use the phone anywhere on the planet just by popping in the SIM card of a different provider. SIM lock-in occurs when vendors program a handset only to accept SIM cards with their signature. Vendor lock-in occurs when the cell phone manufacturer allows the vendor to program a certain code into the phone, so that it will absolutely not pick-up a signal when the vendor's signal is not in range, whether you are using a card from that vendor or not.

CDMA handsets I believe are really only in use in Korea and North America, no?

Why am I interested in OpenMoko?

I recently experienced what a nightmare this can be (especially with the cost of newer handsets these days). Originally, I was holding out for getting a motorola C113, but since they don't want anyone in 1st world countries to use them, i settled for a fully-featured and quite expensive Nokia which I bought in Germany (no vendor / SIM lock-in). That was stolen ;-) . Then I managed to get a free handset with 'points' I accumulated with my old provider. I vowed the next time I purchase a phone, there is no way I'm doing so unless I can monitor where it is and what phone number / person is using it at all times. I realize that some providers provide this service to their customers, but not all.

In short, I'm going to write some software to do this for me, and the OpenMoko is the best place to start in my opinion.

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard that there's still one CDMA network running in Israel.

Re:Awesome

[sepluv]

I'm sure you'll find the chip that actually connects your calls will be totally separate. They won't want you accessing that as mobile phones use proprietary communication protocols so that a cartel of a few companies can maintain their control of the market. (They do say, under software, that there is some proprietary firmware on separate chips which the main processor can communicate with using open protocols.) PDA/phone hybrids usually come with separate processors for the calls and the PDA functions for this reason.

I'm wondering how this compares with Trolltech's Greenphone. (I think that is only available to developers ATM though.)

Re:Awesome

[Hucko]

Australia until January 2008

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that government regulators require that the transmitter is certified for use - it wouldn't do to have a buggy GSM stack jamming all use of the ether.

Greenphone won't be any different.

Re:Awesome

[fillepe]

One of the 2 major carriers in New Zealand is CDMA also. Accordin to wikipedia 18% of celphone users worldwide run CDMA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cdma#CDMA_Roaming

Re:Awesome

[dissss]

NZ Telecom has confirmed they're switching to GSM. They're already selling phones that will work on their GSM network when it's up and running.

Re:Awesome

[paulatz]

Do some cellular providers block phones that they don't approve off?

In Europe definetly NO, as long as you spend your money you can connect with whatever you wish.

Re:Awesome

[evanspw]

God-Damn that's so the question of someone who has long suffered the egregiously ridiculous North American cell phone system. GET WITH THE FUCKING PROGRAM. I laughed a good laugh....

Re:Awesome

[Wookietim]

Sorry - I am not going to pay more than $150 for a cell phone. I have no reason to have the latest fashion accessory screwed to my ear, and the phone I get for free does everything I want a cell phone to do (Voice, scheduling, FM Radio, Camera with video, Voice-memo's, and internet). Why would I pay $300 for a new phone?

Re:Awesome

[volkris]

Here's a hint: you don't get any phones for free.

When the cell phone company hands you a phone without up-front payment it's because the cost has been rolled into the service bill. They get their money; the phone is certainly not free.

Re:Awesome

[Wookietim]

You are right. on the other hand, let's do the math : Pay $300 (or $500 for the iPhone) and still sign a contract for 2 years at $50/Month, -------------OR----------------------- Get the phone for no money and sign a contract for 2 years at $50/month. Which is cheaper?

Re:Awesome

[MajinBlayze]

As long as your network uses GSM. If you are on Sprint (like me) you need to change carriers

Re:Awesome

[enjo13]

Not true. An unlocked phone is simply one that allows the operation (phone side) given any standard IMSI. The operators, however, require any phone on their network to be certified by the carrier. They will not allow a 'rogue' (their words not mine) phone onto their networks. Most carriers will allow any GSM Forum Certified phone to work... but the phone has to formally achieve certification to do that.

I have no idea how the project in the article intends to do that, or if the telephony side is based on already certified hardware/sofwtare. Just clarifying that simply having a GSM implementation, however, is not enough.

Re:Awesome

[terrymr]

Most devices are based on already certified standard GSM modules. You can buy the bare GSM stuff to build into your own project.

Re:Awesome

[gormanly]

Meh, it's not that cheap for an untried product. If the Neo Advanced was nearer $300 (including international shipping) then sure, I'd sign right up. But $450, or $300 for the Base version is just too much. If they can drop the prices by a 25-30% for the 2nd gen I'm sure they'd make a load more sales.

Re:Awesome

[sepluv]

Yes, of course, and that (although the gov. regulators should be worried more about letting anyone enter the market). The Greenphone has a totally separate processor like most other hybrid phones; that was my point. I couldn't actually see a separate processor listed on this one though.

Re:Awesome

[SL Baur]

CDMA handsets I believe are really only in use in Korea and North America, no? No. I used a CDMA phone in Japan as far back as 1999. All of the subway stations have CDMA cells so that the phones work underground too.

Re:Awesome

[dacarr]

Good question. I do this for a living for the data side.

Short version: $gsm_carrier can provide the settings, but while it usually works, it's not guaranteed to work, and they don't acutally support the phone.

Long version is like this - as long as $gsm_phone is unlocked, then $gsm_carrier can usually get it working without too much effort, and will talk you, the user, through the process - but it comes with no guarantee that it will actually work on the network. Some phones have odd quirks, and don't always work. Voice is usually no big issue, and my understanding is something like "just add SIM card and a few button presses, and it'll Just Work" - but, since data and voice are effectively two different parts of any GSM network (and I do data only), I could be wrong. For data, you will have to provide the data service gateway (usually an IP address), an access point name, and a MMS center for multimedia messaging. Either way, if the phone still doesn't want to work, you'll need to call $gsm_phone_maker for help.

Re:Awesome

[norton_I]

To be fair, the things that are included in the "advanced" kit are development boards and a fancy carrying case, along with some duplicate components like memory cards and USB cables which you can probably pick up cheaper elsewhere.

The base kit looks like it has everything you would need or want for a user or software developer. The advanced kit is for hardware hackers.

The consumer version is going to be $450 for the base model, though it has wifi and a bunch of other neato hardware added.

The real reason it looks expensive is that it comes unlocked. If you could get a $150 rebate on a cell phone contract if you bought your own handset, suddenly it would look a lot more favorable compared to other smart phones.

Re:Awesome

[Ajehals]

Pay $300 (or $500 for the iPhone) and still sign a contract for 2 years at $50/Month, or

Get the phone for no money and sign a contract for 2 years at $50/month. or

Buy your own phone, and get on a service plan that is discounted (or in my case last time round - has more minutes and sms's etc..) and not be tied into a carrier for 2 years.

Although once again I must say thats Europe - although I assume that is what you can do in the US once your contract is up and the phone becomes yours(?)

Re:Awesome

[nullchar]

Replying to an AC isn't the brightest thing to do but....

So, why do you not think replying to an AC is useful?

Granted, the AC does not get the message notification of a reply, but everyone else reading the thread (including the original AC) can read the comment and gain insight, be informed, laugh, etc.

Re:Awesome

[hunterkll]

I actually wasn't sure if it was a troll post or not, hence why I prefixed my post

Re:Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, the AC does not get the message notification of a reply

No, I do not get a message notification, but I do bookmark my comments and come back to read replies. BTW, I am the poster of the AC comment, and I again thank the people who responded to it with the information that was very useful.

Re:Awesome

[vigmeister]

Becasue it is not available through their website. Here's what I would do. Buy the most expensive free phone you can find for the carrier you want to use (through amazon/wirefly). Sell that phone...brand new (and unlocked) on eBay. (T-Mobile) will unlock the phone if you tell them you are leaving the country and going to India (or any other country with no T-Mobile). You recoup $150 - $200 and the openmoko costs you about $100. And this is the scenario without rebates. If you DO feel like messing with rebates, you can probably recoup the phone's cost. I myself am selling my Motorola Q and debating a move to GSM (from Sprint) just for Openmoko. But I have to make my mind up quick before they bump the OM's price up.

Cheers!

Gill Bates

[Tablizer]

But does it run Windows? (ducks)

Re:Gill Bates

[rolfwind]

Master Bates, Is it really you?

Re:Gill Bates

[goombah99]

This is gonna go over like a led archos.

Re:Gill Bates

[Ohreally_factor]

Oh, the humanity! The not wireless and lame humanity!

Re:Gill Bates

[hakr89]

Actually, FIC has also designed the hardware so that it can run Windows Mobile. I believe it was for use in the Chinese government or something like that.

Re:Gill Bates

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, it's not that useful... :-P

Sounds great, but...

[mindlessLemming]

...without the sort of $$$ companies like Nokia, Apple and Sony Ericsson regularly throw at "your phone is a statement of who you are" marketing campaigns, I doubt phones based on this software will make much of an impact outside of geek circles.

Unless one of the big guys gets on board, that is.

Captcha: "overdue" - damn right.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

From a manufacturing standpoint FIC is a fairly recognizable company. But yes, they are mostly familiar with the manufacturing side of things for companies like Sony who then markets the hell out of it.

Regardless, every OSS developer with a mobile phone should be switching to this device. It is everything we have been asking for in terms of good corporate citizenship toward the open source community. Everything is open. Hardware specifications, source, direct contact with developers, community sites, everything. Once we all get on board only good things can follow.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think so. I was at Transformers 11:20 pm show at the Cinerama one person had an iPhone you should have heard the inquizitive "Ohs" followed by "that's an iPhone." Things that are new and different stand out. In the case of OpenMoko, people have to ask. Their neighbor won't offer a helpful, "that's an iPhone." And look at even the early functionality. When people get hacking on this thing it could take off in a way the "linux desktop" can't. Phone UIs are expected to be Byzantine, unfamiliar and heterogenous. OpenMoko could very well end up the ultimate can-do information appliance. I'm betting it could take a 4GB microvault drive out of the box. Not to mention the comparative triviality of getting it to recognize and use a 32 GB Micro SD when they (eventually) become available. The first Neo1973 will be able to do a trick ten years down the road that an iPhone won't be able to do. That's pretty unprecidented life and utility in my book. Quite the seductive promise.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[grcumb]

...without the sort of $$$ companies like Nokia, Apple and Sony Ericsson regularly throw at "your phone is a statement of who you are" marketing campaigns, I doubt phones based on this software will make much of an impact outside of geek circles.

I can think of a few areas where this might be popular:

• Second- and Third-tier carriers in small regional and/or local markets that need something to distinguish themselves from their competitors, but don't have the R&D money to do full-scale product development.
• Corporate services - services focused on very specific business niches with unique needs. With GPS, GSM and Wifi built right in, I could think of a few really compelling apps for business....
• Developing nations - Places where interface localisation could increase a market by a significant percentage, but not enough to interest the big players. There are millions to be earned there; they just come in smaller increments than the multi-nationals consider interesting.

There are modest fortunes to be made in any of the above. I'm already investigating the business potential of this device for the very unique circumstances that I work in. If the quality and supply of this device are at the right level, I'm almost certain to invest in it.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[SolitaryMan]

...without the sort of $$ companies like Nokia, Apple and Sony Ericsson regularly throw at "your phone is a statement of who you are" marketing campaigns, I doubt phones based on this software will make much of an impact outside of geek circles.

There is more to phone/gadget market than iPhone and Nokia Tablet. They don't need to make this phone "a statement of who you are", they just need make money from sales, thats it.

I don't see why this phone can't be popular: it is cheap, nice looking, and pretty good (at least from the specs). Yes, it won't be as popular as an iPhone, but who needs this hysteria and popularity among sick and brainwashed people? Such marketing campaigns are unethical anyway and Free Software (which this phone uses) is about ethical things, right?

Re:Sounds great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes everything we wanted... except it looks stupid. It's stubby vs. slim slender and sleek which is what everyone is marketing these days. But other than that... yeah it's friggin' AWESOME.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[lixee]

FIC is actually behind the new 7" UMPC that VIA sells under the name Nanobook. Packard Bell is launching their own version in a while. Neat machines if you ask me, but for the price I'd rather have a couple of Asus EEEs.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Once we all get on board only good things can follow.

Once you all get on board, there will be a few thousand phone owners and it will flop just like every other open hardware initiative that has ever come about.

When atoms are as easily configured and manipulated as bits, that will be the day to get excited about open hardware. Not before.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[NeuralAbyss]

I'd buy one except that it's ancient, GSM-technology-wise: It doesn't do EDGE, UMTS or HSDPA. Which rules out 90% of what I (and many developers would) use the handset for - connectivity to data networks, for example, SSH sessions at any decent speed/latency.

It's a bloody good start. But it's got a long way to go.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[CrazedWalrus]

Yup - that's why I just bought one. I'm so sick of buying a phone that I think will do what I want, only to find out there's some gotcha. I don't mind programming or debugging to get what I want, and I hate not having that option. I have a Blackberry because that covers most of my needs, but it still isn't perfect and I can't customize it that last 10%.

Also, like you said, I bought one because I want to support this. I'd hate to have wasted the money if this turns out to be a dud, but I want to show these companies that demand is out there. This is the kind of thing where you really do need to vote with your wallet. This phone is, in principle, a dream come true.

Re:Sounds great, but...

[lessermilton]

I could think of a few really compelling apps for business.... Not to mention this has a +5 in security, because you can design the encryption/auth specifically for your phone(s)

Oh, the Slashdot fads

[The One and Only]

Out: iPhone.
In: Open Source iPhone Killer.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Skuld-Chan]

There's something to this - Apple store employee told my friend that the iphone would work with his cell network (Edge Wireless - AT&T doesn't exist in his area...). Anyhow it doesn't work with his sim card. Reading more on the net it seems that Apple built in some software that checks for a special AT&T sim card. (yeah the iphone went back)

Forget the sealed batteries, non upgradable memory - to me perma-locking the phone into AT&T is the biggest crime about the iphone and I think should be grounds for an anti-trust suite. Maybe open phones are in?

If Microsoft had done this with a killer phone everyone had to have (yes - I know they don't have one...) everyone on Slashdot would be crying bloody murder.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[The One and Only]

Everyone on Slashdot is crying bloody murder, particularly you. That's what makes the comments to these articles so tedious to read.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[neonmonk]

But will it run OS X?

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Ohreally_factor]

Oh, give Jon Lech Johansen another week or two and that problem will probably be solved. (I don't know for a fact, but) I think it's software signing and not hardware. I've heard a few claim that the iPhone has some sort of TPM hardware, but I've not seen any proof of it.

OTOH, what distros will run on this OSSphone? Is there an UbuntuCE yet? Is Linus going to start allowing mobile phone kernel hackers to add their stuff? Near as I can tell, most phones running linux are locked down at the kernel level, but have open middleware. (And one could argue that Apple is conceptually shifting the "middleware" to AJAX or what have you.)

Correct me if I'm way off base about the openness of Linux based phones (anyone).

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[cp.tar]

Well, I'm quite certain it'll run Gentoo.

Cue the compilation of compilation jokes... now.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[richlv]

why don't you read yourself ?
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

OpenMoko is an Open Source project to create the world's first free mobile phone operating system. ...
The long term goal is that phone software won't be tied to a phone. You can install any OpenMoko software over the whole range of phones, and if you upgrade your phone, you don't lose the software. Bugs fixed on one phone are fixed on all.

Currently it is not suitable for users. The state of the software at the moment is pre-alpha. If you order a Neo1973, DO NOT expect to be able to use it as an everyday phone for several months.

The Neo1973 from FIC is the first of many phones that OpenMoko will run on.

(i did not cut out the part about "Currently it is not suitable for users", as i believe that's important ;) )

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Ohreally_factor]

Thank you!

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, what is really tedious are posts such as yours - they only whine about others' posts, and contribute nothing to the conversation at all.

Just as this one does :)

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[ajs318]

Just buy one SIM-free in some or other EU member state when they launch over here. All phones approved for sale in Europe have to be unlockable. They can be locked to the SIM if they are sold on a pay-as-you-go tariff, but by law they have to be unlockable to work with any provider's SIM (barring RF module limitations, but that ceased to be an issue c.2001 with the advent of dual-band 900/1800MHz phones - I don't think anyone makes a single-band phone anymore). Likewise, DVD players sold on the Continent -- but not in Britain, thanks to some treaty we opted out of -- have to be multi-region. (Though, there's no law preventing you setting a DVD player purchased in Britain to multi-region, if you can find the necessary remote hack, or importing one and fitting a British plug.)

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the sealed batteries, non upgradable memory - to me perma-locking the phone into AT&T is the biggest crime about the iphone and I think should be grounds for an anti-trust suite. Maybe open phones are in?

Do you live in ths US? Because if you do, it's surprising that you don't realize that every single phone sold by cell providers is locked to the provider. If you think that's grounds for an anti-trust suite, then you're going to have one against every cell provider in the US. (oh, and it's not -- neither AT&T nor the iPhone have a monopoly)

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Lumpy]

Microsoft tried several times and they all failed or end up obscure. The best MSFT based phone right now is the Samsung Blackjack. I just got one as the Openmoko is impossible to integrate to corperate email the way the blackjack does (which is as good as blackberry does) right now.

I wanted a FIC phone with openmoko, but I cant because of two things. 1- corperate email 2- lack of a keyboard.

I answer emails on the road a LOT. screen packing sucks so bad I threw the iPaq phone I had in the trash and upgraded to my current phone.

keyboard on a serious business phone is an absolute must.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[illumin8]

Apple store employee told my friend that the iphone would work with his cell network

I call BS. It has been well advertised for months now that AT&T was the only network that an iPhone would work on. Anyone that expected it to be any different was misinformed, and I find it hard to believe that an Apple store employee would spread this misinformation.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[lessermilton]

Didn't look far enough. No keyboard? Pshaw!

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[The One and Only]

I think what's really tedious is the recursive series of meta-complaints that posts like yours tend to generate sometimes, and yet somehow get modded funny.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Skuld-Chan]

Its actually true - he is on Edge Wireless. The Apple guy figured - since Edge is part of AT&T now it would work - not quite so.

Re:Oh, the Slashdot fads

[Nicolay77]

So you are the reason the Sony Ericsson P990 has that horrible keyboard tacked on!

I can understand that it is useful for you, but...
I want one with a bigger screen instead of the bberry-like keyboard!

(still using my P900, don't want ugly keyboard)

Anyway, I blame you for that U_U

"up-and-coming devices"

[kimvette]

re: . . . up-and-coming devices targeted to the consumer market . . .

Up-and-coming when? A month from now? No, October. Bummer. I'm sick of my V400 and am buying a new phone this week. Because the iPhone was so underwhelming AND it does not do 3G AND because it won't work with stereo headphones, AND it's totally locked down, I'm going with the Samsung Sync (SGH-A707). Is it a great phone? No, but for my purposes it's a lot better than the iPhone.

I wish the GTA02 were to be available sooner; I would wait on a new phone, but I'm sick of my randomly locking up, dropping calls, and so forth, PLUS I periodically need to open it up to fix the darn volume controls (every motorola phone I've tried tends to have volume control button issues after about a year, but other brands don't seem to have that problem) I need a new phone now.

Well, nothing will stop me from using the SIM card in the open source phone, right? This phone looks like it'll deliver everything the hype to the iPhone promised but the actual product failed to deliver.

(sorry Apple, I wanted to like and want the iPhone, I really did, but you shot yourself in the foot by not offering 3G, offering iTunes but not stereo headphone compatibility, and by locking the phone down).

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[Anonymous Coward]

The lack of 3G connection is a faults in the design of the iPhone, but I am uncertain as to where you dug up the lack of stereo headphone support.
I have an iPhone, and not only does it comes with stereo headphones, I can use most third-party headphones (Apple made a stupid move of making the jack an odd shape, forcing some surgery to the headphone connector).

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[mrchaotica]

I wish the GTA02 were to be available sooner; I would wait on a new phone...

You know, you can get a GTA01, whether it's supposed to be "for developers" or not. Sure, you miss out on the WiFi and graphics, but you get an extra battery and stuff. And you can buy it today.

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[MushMouth]

He said he didn't want his phone to "randomly lock up" a beta development phone isn't a wise move if that is what you want.

I tried putting both Familiar and Opie on my iPaq, but I could never the WiFi or bluetooth to work, most of the apps lacked polish, and the keyboard interface was awful.

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[Ohreally_factor]

Are you sure about it not working with stereo headphones? Got linkage? Seems strange that it would come with stereo earphones and use 3.5-mm stereo headphone jack.

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[mieses]

ifawn is missing stereo bluetooth headset support (i think)

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[Alizarin Erythrosin]

From what I can read, this phone won't have 3G either.

Re:"up-and-coming devices"

[illumin8]

(sorry Apple, I wanted to like and want the iPhone, I really did, but you shot yourself in the foot by not offering 3G, offering iTunes but not stereo headphone compatibility, and by locking the phone down).

Ok, it doesn't have 3G, but it sure does take stereo headphones. The jack is recessed though so you might have to spend $10 on an adapter, but it's the same on all the Treos and other smartphones that have the mini-headphone jacks that you need an adapter for.

iPhone killer

[roye]

This thing is great. Once the kids see the flashy colors, carry bag and stylus, they will drop the iPhone in droves! It looks like an interesting project. Competition is good, but I have a feeling that an "open" phone will get the OMGTerrorists!!1! label from AT&T in partnership with Motororla. I hope this one gets off the ground.

What a deal!

[BlakeReid]

FTA:

Direct from openmoko.com, the price will be $450 for the Neo Base and $600 for Neo
Advanced.

Hard to tell from the press release which mass market (GTA02) model (if either) is really close to feature parity with the iPhone, but if you compare the two top end models, the price is the same.

This device could very well stand as a competitor to the more expensive Apple iPhone, but at a fraction of the price and with no vendor lock-in.

If by fraction you mean 1/1, I guess so.

Re:What a deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

Um... the prices listed on the website are $300 for the phone, and $450 for the phone with a development kit (looks like the phone just comes in a fancy case... and something else)...

Re:What a deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, allow me to correct myself:

There are (at least) two versions... the first one will be $300 for the base, and $450 for the advanced... this one is labeled as a "Developer Preview"... Possibly only for developers... but who knows...

Then the GSsomething 2 will cost what you said.

Re:What a deal!

[BlakeReid]

Um... the prices listed on the website are $300 for the phone, and $450 for the phone with a development kit (looks like the phone just comes in a fancy case... and something else)...

Those are the prices for the https://direct.openmoko.com/Developer Preview model, or the GTA01; the mass-market phones (GTA02) will sell for the prices I mention. AFAIK, the differences between the $300 and $450 phone are as follows:

* Debug Flex Cable * Debug Board v2 (JTAG and serial console) * Ruggedized Toolbox with shoulder strap * Guitar Pick (for opening case) * Torx T6 screwdriver

I personally think the guitar pick makes for a great value!

Re:What a deal!

[lixee]

Hard to tell from the press release which mass market (GTA02) model (if either) is really close to feature parity with the iPhone, but if you compare the two top end models, the price is the same.

Nonesense. The Neo Advanced is not a top end model. It's the exact same unit that come in a nicer package and with all kinds of gadgets for the hacker in you. You can't possibly call the inclusion of debugboards and other JTAG cables as making a "top end model". It makes no sense.
If you really wanna compare the Neo Advanced with the iPhone, you'll have to include the many billions of dollars you'll have to give Apple so that they give you some of the iPhone's IPs.
Oh, and did I mention the Neo's got built-in GPS? Imagine a world where the freaking phones switch into silent mode when you enter a theater.

Re:What a deal!

[mrchaotica]

You seem knowledgable, so I'll ask you: does the OpenMoko include PIM apps? And, just as importantly, does it synchronize with anything (hopefully e.g. KDE PIM at the least, but bonus points for Apple's iSync...)?

Re:What a deal!

[pturing]

They're discounting this edition of the phone since it's for developers and doesn't have all the bits. Here's a quote from the openmoko mailing list:

The delays have been expensive for us and annoying for you. We've
decided that instead of setting up a complicated return or tracking
system to remember who gets a discount for GTA02, we going to give you
_all_ a discount on GTA01.

We're going to sell the Neo Base for $300. The Neo Advanced will be
$450.

GTA02 (AKA: The Mass Market Neo 1973) is on schedule to go on sale in
October. It will have the following new hardware components:

  * 802.11 b/g WiFi
  * Samsung 2442 SoC
  * SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator
  * 2 3D Accelerometers
  * 256MB Flash

We will sell this device through multiple channels. Direct from
openmoko.com, the price will be $450 for the Neo Base and $600 for Neo
Advanced.

Re:What a deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

If it doesn't now, it will once all these slashdotters get their hands on one.

Remember, it is Open Sauce.

Unfortunately for apple, you cant write a PIM application in a browser window in a 320x240 screen.

And not only will this be able to sync with KDE, im sure someone will run KDE itself on it. If not KDE, then at least enlightenment 17. Again, something the iphone can only dream of doing because it is closed.

Re:What a deal!

[ericrost]

The developers version comes with a debugger (hardware based) which you can't compare to the iPhone. So it's a ratio of 1/2 ($300) at this point. I'm not sure what the upcoming WiFi version costs, but you've already got a feature (GPS) the iPhone doesn't so it might be parity already.

Re:What a deal!

[Sancho]

Hard to tell from the press release which mass market (GTA02) model (if either) is really close to feature parity with the iPhone, but if you compare the two top end models, the price is the same. Except that the Mako doesn't support EDGE. The only reason I didn't switch to an iPhone the day it came out was because it only supports EDGE. I'm sure as hell not buying a phone that has worse data rates.

Re:What a deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget when comparing the price of the iPhone vs. the Neo1973 that the Neo doesn't come with an obligation to pay $2000 (that's roughly the correct figure, no?) over the next 2 years to AT&T.

Re:What a deal!

[GoulDuck]

At Linux Forum 2007 in Denmark, some guy (sorry, I'm really bad with names) talked about the phone and he wanted suggestions on what kind of applications You wanted. Like, how could You use the GPS function in "different" scenarios than normal GPS devices are used for. Some posted a comment in here, suggesting that the phone went into silence mode, when entering a cinema.

Again, my bad memory haunts me, but one of the cool apps would be a location-based calender: When You arrive at Your parents house, You will be reminded to pickup that bag of Your old gismos - or at the (or just near a random one) supermarket, You will get a reminder about buying duct-tape. :-)

The cool part of all this is that You can write Your own programs and take advantage of the GPS and what ever feature of the phone You want to, because the phone is almost completely open - they even have instructions on how to open it physically! By "almost", I mean that the "thing" that makes the calls aren't open (can't remember the details on that), so You can only send AT-commands at it. To keep it as open as they can, the maps in the GPS navigation will be based on http://www.openstreetmap.org/. Again, one of the things they wanted to do also, was masking a application that would record Your movement, so it could be uploaded to the OpenStreetMap project to draw in unknown/new roads.

I must admit that I'm looking forward to this phone - but I'm not planning to buy one just yet.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything of the above - I have been drinking allot since Linux Forum... ;-)

Re:What a deal!

[Dougie]

You seem knowledgable, so I'll ask you: does the OpenMoko include PIM apps?

As far as I can tell, not quite yet. If you check their wiki, they mention a "today" app, which suggets pim functionality further down the line.

And, just as importantly, does it synchronize with anything (hopefully e.g. KDE PIM at the least, but bonus points for Apple's iSync...)?

When talking to some one in the OpenMoko IRC channel, I was told that they would be using the Evolution Data Server for PIM related functions, so may be not KDE, but should be more than workable from an integration perspective.

Re:What a deal!

[kwalker]

I'll just jump in here, since I've been following this project for months now.

Yes, the OpenMoKo platform includes PIM apps (Based on the EDS-embedded platform from O-hand). It's still in its infancy (They have been focusing on the hardware up to this point), but it's there, and will be rapidly advancing in the next few months. And one of the things they've been working on is a SyncML interface to sync the OpenMoKo PIM apps with anything that can speak SyncML. There will probably have to be an iSync backend written if it doesn't have a generic SyncML one already.

Re:What a deal!

[walter_f]

First, the Neo1973 Advanced package includes extras like a developer board, special cables, dev software and other things that are just of interest for developers. The phone included is the same as in the Base version. If you were a consumer, you would neither want nor need the advanced version of the Neo.

Second, one can take the prices for the Neo hardware at face value - the Neos do not come with any compulsory two-year contracts that are at least $60 a month (and thus at least $1440 in total). You put in the SIM card of the carrier of your choice (provided the carrier offers GSM service).

So the prices are _not_ the same. They are not even comparable between Neo1973 and iPhone.

Re:What a deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fraction, as in the quotient of 2 integers or real numbers.

Something like $450 / $600, or $450 / $( 600 - slight discount to encourage vendors + monthly overhead on contract + price for vendor lock-in)

Yes, 1/1 when you purchase the newer model with the 'advanced' bundle, but why would a general consumer buy the 'advanced' bundle anyway?

An interface called "Shake"?

[jx100]

The inclusion of a 3D accelerometer intrigues me. I'm guessing/hoping there are plans to integrate this into some sort of user interface. An interface designed at least partially around physically moving the unit would be great to have on something as small as a cellphone, as it would reduce the need for thumb-typing or any other kind of extreme dexterity

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Ohreally_factor]

If it's a very very precisely accurate accelerometer it could be a good alternative to a GPS (assuming you have accurate coordinates for your start position). =)

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[jx100]

Hmm... that would require the ability to know its position in 3D space. It'd have to know both north and up at all times.

It may improve GPS if used together with it though.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[TheLink]

"An interface designed at least partially around physically moving the unit"
Cue: quantum leap + al + ziggy + thwack!

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Zantetsuken]

One (although somewhat gimmicky) use I can see is to physically shake the phone to for example, randomize a music playlist. Another could be for dice games - shake the phone and when you stop the die gets "tossed"...

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[PMBjornerud]

An interface designed at least partially around physically moving the unit would be great to have on something as small as a cellphone, as it would reduce the need for thumb-typing or any other kind of extreme dexterity I got this mental image of someone using their phone to hammer morse-codes against a concrete wall...

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's coming in the new Sony Ericsson handsets (your music example, ie)

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[cp.tar]

This seems interesting...

Don't browse through menus; shake the phone twice to mute the ringtone. Program it to make lightsabre sounds as you swing it around. And I wonder what can be done for blind typers, since I guess they'd have trouble without keys (esp. home key).

This has potential, indeed.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[pyrrhos]

Besides, it is virtually impossible to know your position however precise your accelerometer is. Even if you know (or define) your starting position you have to take a double integral of your acceleration signal over time. This means that any errors (even a perfect accelerometer will have thermal noise) will accumulate pretty fast. Could could be standing still and your accelerometer will have no clue whether its moving or not!

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The inclusion of a 3D accelerometer intrigues me. I'm guessing/hoping there are plans to integrate this into some sort of user interface Introducing: The Etch-a-sketch interface. Shake to reset.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[DCastagna]

I think WarioWare: Twisted! is a good example of how the accelerometer could be used to just get fun.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Epsillon]

3D graphics and accelerometer input support? One word: Gaming. If you thought texting whilst driving was dangerous, you haven't seen anything until you've witnessed some idiot playing MotoGP whilst trying to aim their half a tonne of steel!

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Threni]

> Hmm... that would require the ability to know its position in 3D space. It'd have to know both north and up at all times.

Up is surely the opposite of down, which should be fairly easy. North's a tough one though, especially near the poles/equator.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Secrity]

Will Emergency Repair Procedure #1 (in this case slapping it smartly on the hand) cause it to reboot?

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[dittrich]

A single accelerometer wouldn't provide enough info for inertial navigation, which is what you're describing. You'd need three, one for each axis(X, Y, & Z). Some aircraft have an inertial navigation system (usually as a backup to more advanced nav systems) that work on this principle. Inertial Navigation systems do drift over time, so they tend to become less & less accurate. You'd need some way of correcting this on a regular basis.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[queazocotal]

Basically not. If you hold the phone in the same orientation, with best-in-class accellerometers, you pretty much get a centimeter per second per second of error. After an hour, that's 70MPH, and around 50 miles out. It's useful for periods well under a minute, when the orientation is known. If the orientation is unknown, then it's basically useless for navigation - even if you have two of them in the phone - for periods over 5 seconds. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundam entals - though it's somewhat slow at the moment. Guess why :)

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[lessermilton]

You can already do some sweet stuff with the Wiimote... I wonder if you could "type" with it? I think that would be one of the coolest things... you see someone waving their phone around - "Dude, what are you doing?" "Oh, I'm just chatting with my Mom." *friend backs away slowly*

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[daenris]

No need... it has GPS included in the phone already.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[WheresMyDingo]

3D graphics and accelerometer input support? One word: Gaming. If you thought texting whilst driving was dangerous, you haven't seen anything until you've witnessed some idiot playing MotoGP whilst trying to aim their half a tonne of steel!

Which is why I'm waiting for the GTA03, which as a promotion will be bundled with a port of GTA3 that will let you score points for running real people over.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The inclusion of a 3D accelerometer intrigues me. I'm guessing/hoping there are plans to integrate this into some sort of user interface. Are you kidding? Do you really want to look like you're doing spastic kung-fu while walking down the street scrolling through your contacts?!?

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[jx100]

Seeing as how people don't have any issue looking like complete tools with the current bluetooth headsets, I don't think it'll be an issue.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[lordlod]

A small accelerometer like this would be designed to detect the orientation of the phone. Accelerometers pick up gravity, so detecting which way is down becomes trivial.

It's not possible to use them do much else with precision. For example anything position related requires integrating the readings twice. This means that any slight errors in your initial reading get compounded in your final measurement and the error gets worse with time. Even if you discount noise the lack of precision in the sensor would make any positional or movement information useless within seconds.

Re:An interface called "Shake"?

[mr_matticus]

Half a tonne? What are they driving, a golf cart? ;)

Finally, I can take hold of my dreams

[Anonymous Coward]

And run linux on my phone.

Opnemoko versus iPhone

[hoppy]

There is an interesting comparison between the OpenMoko and the iPhone. The iPhone hardware gives more power but may be the openness of the OpenMoko can provide better user experience with adaptability lacking in the iPhone ?
  http://aptustech.com/?q=node/9

Can the Openmoko challenge the iPhone ? Does the opensource philosophy can overcome one of the best designed phone ?

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't hold your breath. iPhone will sell millions. This other thing will sell... tens?

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[msormune]

Ummm... how does being "open" improve the user experience? Openmoko hasn't a change of a snowball in hell. For one, it's yet another stupidly named open source product.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[hoppy]

Ummm... how does being "open" improve the user experience?

Well, open means you can adapt this particular phone to your requirements. Lets say you are a in charge of a transport company, you give this phone to each of your drivers. With a proper software you can have a realtime picture of where are all your truck, you can adjust pick up and deliveries. Of course you can do exactly that with dedicated hardware, but can you do that with a $300 device ? If it's open you can...

Openmoko hasn't a change of a snowball in hell. For one, it's yet another stupidly named open source product.
The name is NEO1973, in reference to the first cellular phone call made in 1973. Openmoko is for the geeks.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[cpm80]

Clearly being "open" improves the user experience for those users inclined, and capable of, modifying the system. If the user doesn't like how an application works they are welcome to modify the application to their liking, thereby improving their experience.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Ohreally_factor]

Well, in some Spanish speaking countries, moco is slang for snot or sperm, so this is going to go over really well there.

As for the phone and its OS, never say never. They might be after the niche slashdot-type market at first. If and when it gets a UI with enough polish and ease-of-use it might have a chance in the mass market. And it stands to benefit from Apple blowing the smartphone market wide open. The iPhone is going to make smart phones popular among "regular" people. I think this improves rather than hurts the chances of Openmoko to succeed.

I see some mutual benefit between projects like Openmoko and the iPhone as well. Adoption of either is going to help push for adoption of open web standards (Death to Flash!! and other proprietary bullshit).

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Zantetsuken]

Well, for one, people wanting to develop and use *real* applications won't have to use unsupported hardhacks for gaining shell access (or if it's a boot-loader, access to that) and be able to run applications coded in something like C or C++ - not damned javascript...

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Can the Openmoko challenge the iPhone ? Does the opensource philosophy can overcome one of the best designed phone ?

No chance. People don't wait in lines for something useful, they do for something ub3rk3w1 to show friends and cow-orkers before everyone else to gain PR points.
Though the Neo1973 is without doubt better than the iPhone, both from a developer and user perspective, it isn't famous or heavily publicized so the social boost the owner gains from its possession is minimal.
Linux techies like me will probably buy it for the same reasons joesixpacks won't; too bad there are 10 Linux techies every 100000 joesixpacks.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[shilly]

The parent isn't suggesting there's no reason for the name. The parent is suggesting that the reasoning behind the name is stupid. If the phone is going to sell to the consumer electronics mass market, there's no point giving it a name looking back 33 years and with all the appeal of "cowpat 3.2". Or in having two names. Neo1973 / openmoko appears to be a great demonstration of why brand management is on the list of Things That Should Not Be Developed as an Open Source Project.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Or in having two names. Neo1973 / openmoko appears to be a great demonstration of why brand management is on the list of Things That Should Not Be Developed as an Open Source Project

You are the one confused by the PC/Windows double naming, correct?

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[richlv]

you seem to be confused. openmoko is the software stack, the platform.
neo is the actual physical device, of which there can (and hopefully will) be many, many more.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Not too sure about the name thing, we've all heard the penis jokes for the Wii ya? Course Nintendo is a popular company unlike FIC, but in the end it was the the positive Wii reviews that put it in shortage for months, not namebrands or horrible puns. With that said however I doubt OpenMoko would be popular, but that has to do with the common complaints that Linux already has. The phone won't be as easy to use, or it'll be less secure, and other mostly fud people have been saying for years.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[msormune]

Yes, and "NEO1973" is for the 33 year old geeks.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[shilly]

I'm not confused at all. But consumers will be. The distinction between openmoko and neo1973 is clear as daylight to us and clear as mud to joe sixpack.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[richlv]

good point. given that this project is still in development, they probably have a good chance to improve this.
on the other hand, most consumers seem to grasp the concept of ibm/lenovo/dell/hp hardware and microsoft/? software - so having a short and clear explanation in a couple of sentences as the second information snippet on the page might help.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[mabinogi]

Then it's no less clear than the distinction between Symbian or Windows Mobile and the phone that uses it. I think you're looking for issues that don't really exist.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[cool_arrow]

You're right, the moko name is bad. It would be nice, when considering names for a product that could potentially be sold to none english speaking people, to run the phonetic spelling through a bad name checker of some sort. I always thought that Chevy's Nova (no va) was a nice one for spanish speaking people ; )

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[IpalindromeI]

Names, on their own, usually aren't that important. Snopes on the "Nova"

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Can the Openmoko challenge the iPhone ? Does the opensource philosophy can overcome one of the best designed phone ? Yeah... Openmoko will supplant the iPhone shortly after Linux overtakes OS X on the desktop.

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Millenniumman]

An open source phone is an interesting idea, but this is a terrible implementation. It is very big, with a relatively small screen. It is ugly. It comes with very limited features (and there is no guarantee that will change). It is missing vital hardware (wifi), which is supposed coming with a second release. And it is still quite expensive.

On the other hand, the iPhone is smaller, with a bigger screen, and looks really nice. It is quite featureful (as in it has a lot of nice features, not it could possibly have a lot of nice features if people decide to volunteer their time to develop for it.

Couldn't they have designed a nice, open phone?

Re:Opnemoko versus iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

What can I say in terms of the iPhone... hmm... it plays music... you can watch movies on it while your driving or crossing the street... hmm.. you can use it as a phone... or keep your calender on there.

I for one have an ancient 20GB iPod and I use approximately 6GB of that. I am _constantly_ trying to delete songs from my iPod playlist only to have to re-copy them over to my iPod.

When all is said & done, I probably have around 4GB of music that I genuinely like on my iPod. I definitely do not need to be watching movies on it for the most part.

What you don't have with the iPhone is : CHOICE!!

1) whose software is running on the device
2) what software you use to sync the device with your workstation
3) input to help make the software on the device better
4) the ability to actually make the hardware more useful than it was originally intended to be ... I could go on.

Don't get me wrong... I think apple makes great hardware... but something just seems to really appeal to me about being able to browse through hundreds of readily available applications to find the one that meets my expectations as say, a music player, movie player, email reader, calendar, ssh client, c-compiler, usb-keyboard driver, etc, etc.

What I find even more appealing is then being able to download that application _free_of_charge_ !!!

So yeah...

I would say that it could be a fairly huge competitor... Please remember, that even Johnathan Schwartz has been quoted as saying that the first computer that many people in the world will ever own will be their mobile device, and the more that is made available to _everyone_ in the world, the more likely they are to occupy a larger market share.

Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[bprice20]

Whatever happened to the agps the wiki says it was http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS , was this dropped or just no longer mentioned?

Re:Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[BlueLightning]

The Neo1973 does have GPS, both in the GTA-01 and GTA-02.

Re:Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[Anonymous Coward]

More detailed hardware description here.

Everything else I have seen seems to imply the Phase01 handsets will have AGPS as well. I am not sure about how functional the current software stack is, but the chip is present in the device. As far as I'm concerned, the Phase02 device is a dream come true. My only request for Phase03 and beyond is a slightly more compact iPhone-ish design i.e. bigger screen, less frame, and thinner shell. I assume any change in casing will also add a camera of some sort as well, but other people probably care about that more than I do. And of course obligatory ram and cpu bumps for any new hardware.

If I had a GSM provider I would have ordered one half an hour ago. Unfortunately I'm CDMA and I have calculated it will be extremely costly for me to switch because it is a shared plan.

PS. Although the iPhone has a beefier CPU, it is wasting those cycles on shitty Javascript. The OpenMoko has the sexy benefit of running native apps which makes a pretty big difference in most cases.

Re:Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't encourage him by reading the article for him.

Re:Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[larkost]

Minor note: these phones have AGPS. It does the same thing, but works by using the cell towers rather than GPS satellites. As long as you are in cell coverage it is effectively the same thing (except AGPS works much better in large cities), but you have to be in cell coverage for it to work.

Re:Wasn't this thing supposed to have gps?

[FireFury03]

Minor note: these phones have AGPS. It does the same thing, but works by using the cell towers rather than GPS satellites.

This is incorrect. AGPS is the same as GPS (and uses the same satellites) except it requires some external assistance. The assistance varies depending on the particular AGPS device - some of them require assistance from the cellphone provider's network (e.g. to provide processing of the signals, etc), but in this case it just requires that the phone has the almanac data available (which can just be downloaded over the wifi connection every so often).

So in summary: it uses the GPS satellites, doesn't require any assistance from your service provider and just requires you download the almanac periodically.

Its ok, but

[hyperbotfly]

It locks you out of accessing the hardware fully, in the same vein that Tivo does. The only level of control over GPRS/GSM communications you have are AT commands. Any control below that is competely done by firmware from which you are restricted.

Re:Its ok, but

[hoppy]

And what kind of control do you need over the GPRS/GSM ? Do you have any control on your DSL modem ?

Re:Its ok, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea and after a week, the communitiy (well the true hackers) releases new firmware

Re:Its ok, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen some of the ~$140 modules that let you do the GSM thing(like that rotary dial cell phone).
They use AT for controlling the thing. Simplifies things (I would assume) for the person developing. There are a lot of options available.
Just because it uses an AT control set doesn't mean you don't have lots of options to screw with.

What type of control are you hoping for?

Re:Its ok, but

[Ohreally_factor]

While I'm sure this aspect is disappointing to those of you that understand and don't have to ask, wouldn't you agree that it's a sane approach? And even if the firmware is locking it down, wouldn't it be possible to approach the manufacturer with a proposal of whatever project you have in mind?

Re:Its ok, but

[MadJo]

Only the (A)GPS and the GSM module are restricted in that sense, everything else in the phone is completely open to you.
(the (A)GPS doesn't have open source drivers, and I'm guessing that the GSM module has to be protected in order to pass FCC regulations.)

But at least you HAVE access to the GPS module.

Re:Its ok, but

[MadJo]

(of course I mean "at least you have access to the GSM module")

Re:Its ok, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Any control below that is competely done by firmware from which you are restricted. Much like x86-32/x86-64 architecture CPUs and the microcode which is one level down from assembly code which programmers can use to write software. There are bugs in microcode that make CPUs not work as expected (see the Intel/AMD errata sheets which are constantly updated) but you can't fix them yourself.

The reason in this case is mostly to do with FCC regulations (and for the slightly more paranoid, so that you can't disable phone tracking?). As has been the case of telephone equipment since the dawn of time, it is all highly regulated. They don't want you messing with frequencies, power levels and communications with base stations, etc. And I have my doubts that it is purely for technical/reliability issues (people doing DoS attacks on base stations?).

The AT commands are quite high level (example: http://www.activexperts.com/activcomport/at/nokia/ ) so in that sense you can't do any real heavy duty tweaking on the protocol/packet rate/frequencies/power levels/etc.

Re:Its ok, but

[True Vox]

I don't mean to sound like a douchbag, but that's a pretty snide response. I'm not an idiot, and am honestly very capable of understanding complex matters if explained. Please, humor me. What kind of control do you need over the GPRS/GSM? It's an honest question. I really do want to know. After all, I assume if you know so much about it, you must have asked a similar question at one point.

2.5G GSM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that will count this phone out for a lot of people here, for the same reason as the iPhone.

http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdki t.html

The Neo 1973 boasts the following hardware specifications
2.8" VGA TFT color display
Touchscreen, usable with stylus or fingers
266HZ Samsung System on a Chip (SOC)
USB 1.1, switchable between Client and Host (unpowered)
Integrated AGPS
2.5G GSM - quad band, voice, CSD, GPRS
Bluetooth 2.0
Micro SD slot
High Quality audio codec

Re:2.5G GSM?

[wallior]

And no EDGE either. I would love it if one of these babies would come out in 3G, even if it didn't support HSDA. The wiki does mention the 2007 Neo 1973 doesn't support 3G, which suggests to the optimistic mind that the 2008 version might.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Chandon Seldon]

For those of you who really think that the difference between 2.5G and 3G is a deal breaker, I'd like to point something out:
Unless you are going to hook the phone up to your computer and use it as a modem, the difference doesn't matter. You've got a 2" screen with a relatively low resolution - even crappy video streaming will run over 2.5G (poorly, but who watches video on their phone anyway?).

If you could do VOIP or something over 3G that might make it matter, but the latency for cellular internet access is so horrible that it's not worth it. On my 3G Sprint (PowerVision) phone, I've never seen my ping get lower than 500ms - and I've even written midlets to test it.

Maybe 4G will matter, but the difference between 2.5G and 3G is *nothing* relevant for any phone usage pattern I can come up with. Even MP3 downloads are fast enough on 2.5G.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[wallior]

For me, the difference is definitely a deal breaker. The speed difference between 2G (2.5G is really just marketing talk) and 3G is huge. You cannot expect people to develop on technologies which won't be around for much longer.

Speed aside, in Australia operators are shutting down their 2G networks and replacing them completely with 3G networks. Hutchison decommissioned Orange (CDMA) and moved all their customers to their 3G brand.

In the next couple of years, Telstra will replace all GSM with 2100Mhz in cities and probably 850Mhz in the bush. Likewise Optus and Vodafone will be looking at replacing their 2G with a 900Mhz network.

As far using the phone as a broadband modem - that usage is picking up enormously.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Helix150]

first- evdo Rev. A pings are much better- I usually get 150-250ms on my sprint aircard. It's good enough for VoIP without a problem.

That said, I want to challenge the idea that EDGE -> UMTS makes no difference on a PDA. It makes a difference, although not much of one for 'mobile web sites'.
If you are on google mobile with stripped down xhtml pages you may not notice the EDGE much. However if you are surfing 'normal' web pages that get resized on the PDA, it makes a big difference. If you are streaming media, it makes a huge difference. If you want to stream media while surfing any web pages, it makes a huge difference.

I have tested an EDGE device (T-Mobile MDA (HTC Wizard)) against an EVDO device (Sprint ppc6700 (HTC Apache)) and another EVDO device (Sprint Mogul (HTC CDMA Titan)), I can tell you even surfing is night and day. Surfing mobile sites on EDGE is usable, surfing normal sites on EDGE is very painful (30sec load times for some fancier pages).
On an EVDO device however, mobile web sites are notably faster than EDGE and even most normal websites start to render in under 5 seconds, usably finished in under 10 most of the time. It just doesn't happen on EDGE.

Also on an EVDO device you can stream mp3's while surfing and still get usable audio...

and lastly what about slingplayer or other mobile video? Don't even bother on edge.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[jonwil]

EVDO is NOT 3G. UMTS is 3G. HSDPA and friends are 3G. EVDO is 2G. (or 2.5G or whatever if you believe the marketing hype)

Re:2.5G GSM?

[jonwil]

Telstra won't be dropping GSM anytime soon, they have too many customers. They ARE dropping CDMA and replacing it with UMTS 3G.

As for 3G on the Neo1973, I suspect the issue is that no-one currently makes a 3G UMTS chipset that is open enough for this project (the GSM chipset is basically a black-box with a well documented interface, does a similar UMTS chipset exist yet?)
Also, 3G chipsets are expensive. Plus, GSM is a LOT more widely available than UMTS.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Anonymous Coward]

3G is most certainly capable of VOIP, the only thing holding it back in most cases are the ridiculous prices charged for data by the phone companies.

I use a 3G modem (Huawei E220) for data while I'm on the move and over the weekend I was using it for a video VOIP call without a hitch. I was also able to play a couple of rounds of BF2, my ping was 100-150 and although a bit laggy compared to cable it was still playable.

The data costs can be painful, but being able to take your broadband connection with you wherever you go does rule and sooner or later the cost is bound to come down.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Erwos]

Um, no. EDGE is 2G (or 2.5G, whatever). EVDO is 3G - it runs at the same speed as HSDPA (and has better roll-out in the US, I may add).

And also, UMTS == HSDPA.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[jaclu]

Well for one thing in many countries the carriers dont even bother to support 2.5G since they already have full 3g support.

So for me in Sweden, no 3g would be a deal breaker, true that one of the swedish carriers actually support 2.5 but since they also support 3g it really wouldnt be wise to select a 2.5g phone, since then I would be locked in to that one carrier.

Also regarding ping-times, Im sitting at the Europython conference in Vilnius, I connected my phone and even with international roaming (to Sweden) I still get ping-times of around 220ms.

    regards /JacobL

Re:2.5G GSM?

[MadJo]

Also EVDo is NOT GSM, but CDMA... two totally different techniques.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[TheRaven64]

The difference in throughput between GPRS and UTMS is not always noticeable. I can get around 4KB/s from GPRS and up to around 50KB/s with UTMS in real-world use, but much of the time 4KB/s is okay (small emails, IM, etc). The thing that really kills GPRS, and makes it a complete waste of effort in my mind is the latency. With GPRS, ping times are about 2-3 seconds. With UMTS they are about 200-300ms. Trying to use SSH or even IM with that kind of latency is almost impossible. Loading web pages is incredibly slow just because of the time required to set up and tear down each connection.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[XedLightParticle]

I would find it a step back if my mobile couldn't do video calls. Besides the 384kbit/s is really a treat when hooking up my laptop through bluetooth in a matter of seconds. Of course a dedicated UMTS modem would pull 3Mbit/s outta the air, but then it can't do anything else, I wouldn't like to carry around all kinda devices just to be hooked up in an instant.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Sancho]

EDGE (which this phone doesn't even support) carries a maximum theoretical downstream bandwidth of 473 kbps. In practice, most handsets/providers max out at about half that. That makes it technically 3G, however HSDPA lets you get 7Mbits/sec. That's a pretty big difference.

These phones have the so-called '2.5G' (which isn't an official designation, but implies packet-switching and other technologies normally associated with 3G, but without the speeds). To be called 3G, you must have at least 144 kbps. That's 60% of what you typically get on EDGE, and that's not what this phone is going to get (obviously, as it's not 3G). With plain old GPRS, you're talking about 80kbps. That's painfully slow for any sort of interactive use (it would obviously be fine for checking mail in the background.)

The data rates are going to suck. EVDO gets something in the range of 2Mbps--noticeably faster than EDGE--and it seems slow to me. Almost anyone who has a PDA phone right now would be seriously downgrading their data rate in order to pick this phone up.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Sancho]

Everyone's a little off, here, but it's a confusing topic.

What most of us care about when talking about 2G vs 3G is bandwidth. There are other differences (how the data is transmitted--WAP vs packet switching, etc), but when non-telecom geeks sit around talking about it, they're talking about speed.

For a device to be 3G, it must have at least 144kbps download. EDGE gets over 200kbps. EVDO gets around 2Mbps. HSDPA gets around 3-7Mbps, with a theoretical max of 14Mbps. Therefore, as far as most people care, EDGE is 3G (it is also packet-switched, which is one of the other major differences.)

This is the problem with using terms to talk about these things rather than just what you really mean. 2G, 3G, EVDO, EDGE... they all have ranges of data rates, so people tend to group them that way. They think that EVDO is faster than EDGE, so EDGE must be 2G (or the absurd 2.5G) while EVDO must be 3G.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can definitely tell the difference with I use my Nokia 770 over my cell phone's internet connection. Hell, I bought a new 3G phone (a Samsung flip phone) just so I can have fast internets on the move.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[illumin8]

You've got a 2" screen with a relatively low resolution - even crappy video streaming will run over 2.5G (poorly, but who watches video on their phone anyway?).

As the owner of an iPhone I can tell you it DOES matter. The difference between crappy Youtube video running over EDGE (2.5G) and a full 1 megabit H.264 video stream coming over wifi is night and day. Anybody that tells you they can't tell the difference, even on the small 3.5" screen in the iPhone, is blind.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[Chandon Seldon]

EVDO gets something in the range of 2Mbps--noticeably faster than EDGE--and it seems slow to me.

Unless you're downloading very large files, that's because of the latency rather than the bandwidth. Latency is horrible on *all* current cellular data standards, but it's not that much more horrible on the "2.5G" networks compared to the "3G" networks.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[wallior]

Customers won't be a big issue. When the UMTS 850MHz rollout is complete (which means all GSM coverage can be covered without additional base stations) they will stop selling 2G phones/deals. Existing deals will run for a certain period after which Telstra will start migrating them accross to new 3G plans.

The market is saturated, calls are going to get cheaper and cheaper, so data is what is being aimed at as the cash cow. The later Telstra leave this change, the bigger risk of more customers churning, as other Telcos increase their coverage.

As far as the UMTS chipset is concerned I completely agree. I hadn't really considered that. Hope fully a suitable solution is found soon. I would love for a device like this to become a strong contender on the market.

Re:2.5G GSM?

[jonwil]

Right now, 3G phones cost a lot more than GSM phones. If Telstra stops selling GSM phones (especially to prepaid customers) a large number of people will simply buy Optus or Vodafone GSM instead (because Telstra NextG costs too much and they don't need any of the extra features of NextG). Maybe in 3-4 years time, UMTS phones will be cheaper (and Telstra will have a bigger selection) and it won't be as much of an issue.

For example, right now I have a Motorola L6 on Telstra Prepaid. The only way I would migrate to NextG Prepaid is if Telstra sold me a Motorola phone in either a candy-bar or slider form factor (I HATE clamshells like the RAZR) that didn't cost the earth. If Telstra tried to migrate me to NextG without the phone I want at a cheap enough price, I would tell Telstra to go jump, take my L6 and get it unlocked (by Telstra or if they won't do it, a 3rd party unlock service) and buy a Prepaid GSM SIM from another carrier

why do i need a beta phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Motorola already has a third gen linux phone out there. http://www.motorola.com.hk/eng/motomobile/a/a1200/
Their E680i model is not bad either. That's the model I have and it went 4 months without a single lock-up or a crash.
My friend's windows mobile always locks up and has to be rebooted every few days because of memory leaks.

Re:why do i need a beta phone?

[wellingj]

Why do you need freedom? If you have to ask you will never know...

Everyone vs. iPhone

[Nastard]

Apple won the market on music players by providing an extremely easy way to manage your collection and sync your device. Call it flashy advertising or a fashion statement if it helps you to feel better about your electronics purchase, but simplicity and interface are key. Same goes for the iPhone. You can shout "features" until you're blue in the face -- and there are plenty who will agree with you and stay away from the iPhone for that reason -- but I've never seen a communications device that makes contact and calendar syncing so easy (bonus: it happens through the already-popular iTunes).

This smacks of the same sort of complaint-response attitude that drives the also-ran category in the music player market. Sure, it's open. Sure, it has features that everyone claims to need. Sure, it has a vaguely iPhone-ish interface. Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[trenien]

I've no idea how it goes about syncing and so on. At a guess, I'd say not so great since Apple makes it a point not to allow such things.

That said, you shouldn't use the terms "iPhone-ish interface", as its interface design was public way before the iphone's got to be back in January.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Nastard]

You're saying Apple makes it a point not to allow syncing? I'm not sure I understand.

As for the interface, what matters is public perception.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[trenien]

I'm saying Apple makes it a point for itunes not to sync with any other device than an ipod.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[dfghjk]

"Apple won the market on music players by providing an extremely easy way to manage your collection and sync your device."

You may attribute their success to anything you want, but it's just not that simple.

"Call it flashy advertising or a fashion statement if it helps you to feel better about your electronics purchase, but simplicity and interface are key."

Yeah, that's always said yet it's not clear how much more simple Apple's products were to provide that "key" differentiation. Funny how the interface that was so inherently superior in the iPod was abandoned entirely in the iPhone yet the iPhone is now praised for it's "simplicity". The fact is that whatever Apple's product is at any given time is claimed to be the standard by which everything is judged. That's called fanboyism.

"...but I've never seen a communications device that makes contact and calendar syncing so easy..."

Then you haven't been looking. Contact and calendar syncing is a trivial process with every smartphone. Palm was doing it for years prior to the iPhone and they are, frankly, the gold standard, not Apple. The iPhone is exactly as easy and no easier to sync than the last several smartphones I've owned.

"Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar."

And that comment smacks of the same Apple-elitist mentality that defines everything in the market by what Apple does. If iTunes is required, no one but Apple can succeed. Syncing a smartphone through a media jukebox application is totally counterintuitive yet no one comments on that.

I can make a lot of claims regarding what other products do that the iPhone doesn't. Funny that you don't concern yourself with any of that. Apparently, all that's important to you is precisely what the iPhone does. Wonder why that is? Can the iPhone sync its SMS messages to its host computer? Can it archive it's IM conversations? Oh yeah, it doesn't even do IM.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Shihar]

Apple does two things extremely well.

1) It really, truly, and honestly does marketing well. Apple fans will swear up and down that that has nothing to do with it, but they are deluding themselves. Apple does marketing in a way that few other consumer electronics even begin to contemplate. Whoever the hell is running Apple's marketing campaign needs an extra zero or two tacked on to the end of his salary. I am not saying that Apple doesn't make a good product, but Apple isn't the only company to make a good lap top or MP3 player in the history of mankind... but they are the only ones to market it with so much success. Apple is a marketing god that lays waste it its enemies with fiery bolts of marketing d00m.

2) Apple locks down their products and creates slick interfaces. If you look at the competition against Apple (and this goes for all of their devices, from phones to computers to MP3 players), Apple uses the same strategy. They bust out workable hardware that is more or less about par for the industry, wrap it in a shiny case that was designed by marketers who know what a human eye likes instead of engineers, and then spend a good long time working on slick software that is tied to the hardware. The actual electronics are generally nothing to write home about. The shinny case developed by marketers who actually know what humans like to look at is helpful, but this still is not terribly remarkable. There have been other pretty devices in the history of humanity that have failed. The software is what really completes the package. Apple takes complete control over what goes in and out of the device by exerting a great deal of control over the both the software and hardware of the package.

You see this with the iPod. You use Apple hardware to hook up, and then use Apple software to load up (yes, I realize you don't HAVE to use iTunes, but 99% of the people do). The result is that Apple has control over almost the entire process and can make sure it actually works. If you look at other MP3 devices, they tend to let go of control when it comes to the software. They either don't have the software expertise to build a slick (or even workable) software interface and instead build a bad one, or the rely on a third party that is usually accommodating more then one MP3 player to be the portal in. Things are better today in the non-Apple MP3 market as other companies have caught up, but Apple has already eaten their breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

The advantage the iPhone is going to have, despite all of the things that irritate me about it, is that Apple is going to be the first to lock down the phone with a complete software and hardware package. Further, they are taking it a step further and even specifying the carrier so that they have control over that too. This is just classic Apple at work. Grab as much control as possible and sacrifice third party software/hardware/carrier to provide a standardized, controlled, (and as a result) stable package. Apple isn't selling these phones as open phones not because they couldn't convince Best Buy to sell an open iPhone, but because gobbling up as much control as is practical is how Apple operates. Are you really going to notice or care that the iPhone has a hard time communicating with non-Apple products or that AT&T can't slap on their standard cell phone OS?

So, this open phone Vs the iPhone? Eh, I put my money on the iPhone. As much as I might not touch the thing with a ten foot pole (I don't mind switching between devices and padding my ass with a pile of the cashI saved... not to mention not selling my soul to AT&T), Apple is going to win a fair hunk of the market in the end. Coming into the market with control over the software, hardware, and carrier means that Apple is able to offer up an integrated device that the cell phone market has seen very little off. Thrown into the mix some Apple marketing divine intervention, and you have a winner. So, grab the Linux phone if that tickles your fancy (it tickles mine), but I wouldn't invest any money in that company.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Nastard]

"Funny how the interface that was so inherently superior in the iPod was abandoned entirely in the iPhone yet the iPhone is now praised for it's "simplicity". The fact is that whatever Apple's product is at any given time is claimed to be the standard by which everything is judged. That's called fanboyism."

The interface was changed because the iPhone has a touch screen. More importantly, though, the fact that Apple continues to improve upon already-admired interfaces is one of the reasons everyone is talking about this product.

"Contact and calendar syncing is a trivial process with every smartphone. Palm was doing it for years prior to the iPhone and they are, frankly, the gold standard, not Apple. The iPhone is exactly as easy and no easier to sync than the last several smartphones I've owned."

I, along with most, already have iTunes on my computer. I already know how to use it. Most people do. I have not been impressed by sync software from Palm or RIM. It says something that Apple sells a "smartphone" and doesn't even bother to include a software CD in the packaging.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Reverberant]

I'm saying Apple makes it a point for itunes not to sync with any other device than an ipod.

Ahem.

Although to be fair, this only applies to iTunes running on Mac OS X

Let's not forget iSync and SyncServic.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[pantherace]

Yet, to activate it, you have to download their software. So all it's doing is saving them a little bit by not bundling a CD, extending their DRM control (and apparently getting them fanboyish comments.)

Oh, and shall we ignore the vendor lock in?

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen a communications device that makes contact and calendar syncing so easy (bonus: it happens through the already-popular iTunes).

Yeah, it makes contact and calender syncing easy... if you use a Mac and use their apps. You're SOL if you use anything else, which most people do. You can't even write your own sync application or use one that somebody else has written because Apple doesn't have a public dev kit! Besides that, syncing your contacts and calendar is hardly anything new, I was doing it on my Palm a decade ago.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[0xdeadbeef]

but I've never seen a communications device that makes contact and calendar syncing so easy (bonus: it happens through the already-popular iTunes

I have - all of them.

What sucks is getting devices to work with anything other than Outlook.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[gosand]

Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar.

It's open source!!! Code it yourself, n00b! Wow, what do you want, someone to hold your hand or something?

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[TheRaven64]

but I've never seen a communications device that makes contact and calendar syncing so easy

I take it you're not a Mac user then. My last two phones (one Nokia, one Sony Ericsson) have sync'd calendar and contact information over bluetooth with a single click in iSync. With a little third-party app, you can write a one-line AppleScript that tells iSync to run whenever the phone enters bluetooth range (or a slightly longer one that runs when it enters range if it hasn't already sync'd that day).

My phone gets sync'd with my Mac a lot more often than my iPod, because I don't need to plug in the cable. Apple really dropped the ball when they released the Airport Express with a USB port and no ability to connect to an iPod dock. I think they also reduced the usability of the iPod when they stopped bundling the dock, since the only reason my iPod gets charged (and I always forget to charge my phone) is that I can drop the iPod in the dock and have it play music through my HiFi as soon as I get home. Having to think about charging a device is a major usability regression.

Oh, and while I'm bitching about Apple usability, the hold switch on the iPod corded remote control is in need of localisation. The US has on/off switches the opposite way up to most of the rest of the world, so the hold switch is upside down from the perspective of a non-US user.

Apple suck less at usability than most of their competitors, but they still get a lot wrong.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, if it's running linux it will be just like syncing two pc's. And with bluetooth on future models it is potentially as easy as bringing your phone near your PC with bluetooth enabled on both - if you set it up that way.

I myself am looking for the "everything device", so I can set up my own little world where what's on my PC is on my phone, and can connect to my TV, and will let me stay connected outside my house. The iPhone looked very promising as one of the final components of what I envision, however this new phone/software looks even closer to what I want.

It's too bad I'm not a developer or I'd be on board trying to get this up and going myself!

Being so configurable means you probably aren't going to be able to get what you want "out of the box". However, with the way linux in general has been going and assuming the people working on this can make it fairly user friendly, customizing it shouldn't be all that painful.

Re:Everyone vs. iPhone

[GaryPatterson]

Yeah, that's always said yet it's not clear how much more simple Apple's products were to provide that "key" differentiation. Funny how the interface that was so inherently superior in the iPod was abandoned entirely in the iPhone yet the iPhone is now praised for it's "simplicity". The fact is that whatever Apple's product is at any given time is claimed to be the standard by which everything is judged. That's called fanboyism.

I think you're being deliberately disingenuous here. The iPod interface works well with the iPod because that device has simple control needs. It couldn't work well with the iPhone because that device needs much more from the user. I can't imagine how someone could even dial an eight digit number using the iPod's click-wheel interface.

One interface, one UI won't cover every device in the world. You're inferring that it should when you say that Apple "abandoned [it] entirely" for the iPhone, but I'd be surprised if you believed that.

Further, it's not 'fanboyism' to set Apple's products as a baseline for judging other products. You have to judge something against something else. Currently the iPhone is getting a lot of attention, so people judge products against it. It doesn't always come out winning, but comparisons where it won on every front would be suspicious.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

[suv4x4]

This device could very well stand as a competitor to the more expensive Apple iPhone, but at a fraction of the price and with no vendor lock-in.

Oh yea, because, you see, iPhone is selling like crazy because it has a big touch screen!

It's *marketing* people. To reach the masses, you need a clear message, a clear brand and a clean hyped up release.

iPhone, by Apple, at 6PM, in all Apple and AT&T stores. Clear enough, right?
What does it do? iPod, Browser, Phone, Maps, YouTube.

Neo1912324, running OpenMoko, released just for developers for now and later for I don't know who and later maybe for everyone. For sale now in some places, if you can find it. What does it do? It's got advanced features running on Linux and is unlocked.

Normal people will see absolutely nothing in that phone, never mind how we, geeks, are salivating at it, if the marketing and branding effort is so weak. Sorry.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[nanosquid]

Well, if your view that it's all marketing is true, we might as well roll over and let Jobs and Gates and all the other non-innovative companies do it to us while they grab our wallets, which is just what those companies are trying to do.

OpenMoko is trying to compete, and I think they have a good chance. Apple's development speed seems like it's glacial, and the feature set on the iPhone will be fairly easy to replicate on the OpenMoko. It's the hundreds of additional apps that will make the phone attractive.

Of course, there is a good chance that OpenMoko and the Neo will fail, but it's certainly worth a try, given the kind of overpriced p.o.s. that the major phone vendors are putting out.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[suv4x4]

Well, if your view that it's all marketing is true, we might as well roll over and let Jobs and Gates and all the other non-innovative companies do it to us while they grab our wallets, which is just what those companies are trying to do.

So what on Earth do you think has been going on so far? Windows has 85% market share. Hello!?

OpenMoko is trying to compete, and I think they have a good chance. Apple's development speed seems like it's glacial, and the feature set on the iPhone will be fairly easy to replicate on the OpenMoko. It's the hundreds of additional apps that will make the phone attractive.

Hundreds of apps doesn't make me buy. I buy because someone communicates to me the ONE (or few) apps I specifically need. I don't buy Windows PC-s to use hundreds of possible software products. I buy it specifically to run, Office, 3DSMax and Adobe software, for example. I have a specific goal in mind.

OpenMoko just seems to say "tons of possibilities and it's open", but for people who have no clue about development, "tons of possibilities" just means "this is not for me".

And let me tell you - it's a vicious cycle. If the phone isn't attractive to mainstream, developers won't develop mainstream apps for it, and mainstream won't buy it.

To think of it, it'll be a direct extension of Linux on the mobile platform. And we keep getting "200x - Year of Linux Desktop" every year, and it doesn't happen. Guess why.

Of course, there is a good chance that OpenMoko and the Neo will fail, but it's certainly worth a try, given the kind of overpriced p.o.s. that the major phone vendors are putting out.

OpenMoko costs $450/$600. You can get a Symbian/WinMobile smart phone with open API for less than that.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[pturing]

Watch this video through to the end and tell me Jobs doesn't innovate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02b8Fuz73A

There are some things in there we still can't do today that he had working over 15 years ago on 33mhz hardware.

But still, more than the cool features, I'd like to actually own my own phone. You see right now, I don't have any control over the way my phone works. If there's some little thing I want to be different, I can't even pay someone to change it. I don't have the final say on what's on my phone; the manufacturer and service provider do. So it's not really my phone, is it?

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[nanosquid]

Hundreds of apps doesn't make me buy. I buy because someone communicates to me the ONE (or few) apps

Everybody does. And everybody has different apps that matter to them. That's why having lots of apps matters.

And let me tell you - it's a vicious cycle. If the phone isn't attractive to mainstream, developers won't develop mainstream apps for it, and mainstream won't buy it.

Ah, yes, and Linux will never work because nobody will develop software for it, right? Current phones (including the iPhone) come with so little software that is so limited that the bar is really low. Most of the so-called mainstream developers are fixing bugs and omissions in the base OS, something OpenMoko doesn't need.

OpenMoko costs $450/$600. You can get a Symbian/WinMobile smart phone with open API for less than that.

OpenMoko costs $300 with a 640x480 screen and GPS (the $450 and $600 include development hardware, something that costs thousands of dollars from other vendors). There is no Symbian or WinMobile that comes even close. In fact, the only other 640x480 phone is a brick. $300 will barely get you the lowest end Symbian phone unlocked (the E50). And Symbian is not exactly open or standard and a pain to develop for (I've tried).

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[linuxrocks123]

> OpenMoko costs $300 with a 640x480 screen and GPS (the $450 and $600 include development hardware, something that costs thousands of dollars from other vendors).

As much as I like the OpenMoko, this statement is somewhat deceptive.

The pricing for the Neo1973 direct from OpenMoko.com is as follows:

Now:
$300 -- base phone with 266MHz ARM processor, 128MB RAM, and no WiFi
$450 -- same phone + hardware development kit

The phone sold now is intended for developers only and is not marketed for mainstream (but you can still get it if you want, of course).

October:
$450 -- base phone with 400MHz ARM processor, 256MB RAM, and built-in Atheros WiFi
$600 -- same phone + hardware development kit

In contrast, the iPhone is either $500 or $600 depending on the model. You're locked to AT&T, don't get a GPS (which comes with the Neo1973), but you do get a camera (which doesn't come with the OpenMoko). Who knows what processor you get (some think 667MHz ARM, but others say 400MHz ARM) or how much RAM you get (Google turns up nothing; neither does Apple's "tech specs" site on the phone). In some sense it doesn't matter, because you're stuck with the iPhone bundled software anyway.

So yeah, $450 for Neo1973 versus $500 for iPhone. Both are pricy, and the Neo1973 is only $50 cheaper. However, I think you're getting a ton more with the Neo1973 anyway. I don't really want a camera on my phone, and I do really want a GPS.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[linuxrocks123]

Sorry, submitted too soon:

Plus, being able to run 3rd-party apps and hack my phone's software is REALLY cool :)

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[beeblebrox]

I have a specific goal in mind. OpenMoko just seems to say "tons of possibilities and it's open", but for people who have no clue about development, "tons of possibilities" just means "this is not for me".

A truly open platform's killer apps don't need to be entirely new ones. They just need to be unmolested by the legacy carriers' greed/stupidity/business models. For example, a true push email service - one which does alert you about new messages but doesn't kill your battery through polling - does not need to be a $$/month line item. With OpenMoko it can - and will - be "free" on top of one of the affordable data plans. Same deal with location-aware services, since there's no restricted API between the developer and the GPS functionality.

OpenMoko costs $450/$600. You can get a Symbian/WinMobile smart phone with open API for less than that.

Ah yes, open APIs and timely firmware updates. The joys of being a user of smartphone platforms dictated by operators.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Ohreally_factor]

It's why having enough apps that function reasonably well, i.e., not getting too much in the way of what the user is actually trying to accomplish. For the average consumer, this means ease of use rather than power (to develop) or lots and lots of shitty apps. There is such a thing as too much choice. Imagine if, the next time you were to buy a soda at your favorite fast food joint, you were offered the choice of a 10 oz., a 11 oz., or a 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, ad infinitum oz. drink, rather than small, medium, or large.

I have to agree with suv about marketing to a certain extent. That (and monopolistic business practices) are what gave MS dominance in desktop OSes. I think you'll also find that there will be lots of apps in the form of web services and the successful mobile OS will be whichever one provides the best interaction with those wen apps. As for the services themselves, those that are marketed best, have the best branding, etc., will have an edge. These will be what average consumers will think of as their choices.

(OTOH, it might come to pass that web apps become totally ubiquitous and interlinked, and the boundaries between different apps will become quite fuzzy, to the point where we're not even thinking in terms of discrete applications but of functionalities. With Greasemonkey and the right plugins, where does firefox stop and flickr begin?)

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[cp.tar]

So, basically, all that stand in the way of F/OSS is the lack of marketing?

Yes, maybe we should devise some way to market such products. However, F/OSS does not have the advantage of ubiquitousness like Windows or iPod; therefore, it has to offer more features, which take a longer time to develop. Add to that the fact that F/OSS is lagging some ten years behind everyone else due to closed hardware, and there you have it: yet again we play catch-up.

However, the interface design of this phone seems good[1]; the F/OSS community can be counted on to develop all kinds of nifty apps; as soon as the phone becomes widely available, there is no reason for it not to sell.

What each of us can do is inquire with their GSM providers on whether they are going to offer the Neo. We cannot compete against the iPhone's hype because we do not have the millions of $CURRENCY to spend on marketing, but we can nag the providers to create the impression of widespread interest. After all, that's what marketing's all about.

[1] I would still suggest abandoning yes/no prompts in favour of Gnome-oid ones (delete/leave), but that's about my only gripe.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[shilly]

Apple's development speed seems like it's glacial? Would you care to explain the reasoning behind that priceless statement?Apple is non-innovative? I can only assume you don't understand that ideas are nothing without execution. And Apple has a track record of outstanding execution.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[ayvee]

I don't think the Neo's supposed to be an iPhone-killer. The company's probably targeting enthusiasts, the kind of people who make up Linux's desktop share. And there are enough of us to make this a viable business proposition.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[TheRaven64]

400MHz ARM and 256MB of RAM makes it sound really interesting, I hadn't seen that spec. If it had UMTS, I would be very tempted. Will a future model have a camera? I never got into the habit of carrying a camera around with me, but I find having a 2MP camera on my phone means that I have a camera always with me and I use it quite a lot.

By the way, your price comparison isn't completely fair, since the iPhone only comes with a relatively expensive contract over two years, while the Neo 1973 can be used with any contract, or even a pre-pay plan, making it much cheaper for casual users.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like a true capitalist.

Its safe to say that the majority of geek culture see through the marketing bullshiat, just emphasizing another reason for starting this project. Like you said, It's *marketing* people .

Frankly, I'd rather Openmoko STAY in the geek sector. Yes it would be financially beneficial to FIC, and every other hardware developer that provides parts for the phone, but what we are seeing here is a change in mentality. If an OPEN FORUM phone can be created for placement on the cellular networks and in no way can be legally kept OFF it, I call that a win in terms of the customer base fighting the monopoly giants.

You may view this project as a failure because of marketing. I view this project an up and coming grassroots(IMO) success, the likes of what MythTV has accomplished.

/sarcasm on
And, as I'm sure you know, MythTV has marketed the internet like the plague, haven't they?
/sarcasm off

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[GoulDuck]

suv4x4 signature:

If you're reading this there's 99% chance you're wasting your time on Slashdot. Made me go back to work again.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Archangel Michael]

"However, I think you're getting a ton more with the Neo1973 anyway."

Wrong. You're not getting ANYTHING close to being "a ton more", except .... POTENTIAL. I've known lots of things (kids) with plenty of "Potential", but end up worthless or held back in some form (drunk, stupid, and/or pregnant).

Potential doesn't mean squat if it isn't developed. Perhaps it will be developed, perhaps not. Only time will tell. Claiming "Ton More" at this point is premature.

That being said, Potential is a great thing. 15 years ago, there was this little OS called Linux, which showed great potential, and with hard work, and tons of effort, it has grown up and is starting to look very nice indeed.

The difference between Linux and all the other things that have failed is the amount of work people are willing to put into it. Even average potential can be more than ultimate potential.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[jc42]

Neo1912324, running OpenMoko, released just for developers ... What does it do? It's got advanced features running on Linux and is unlocked.
Normal people will see absolutely nothing in that phone, ...

Y'know; I was thinking similar thoughts. I've been looking at the openmoko stuff for some time, and one thing I can't actually answer: If I were to buy one now, could I actually use it as a cell phone? Or is that one of the apps that I'd have to write myself? I keep thinking this question is answered somewhere, but I can't find anything that actually says.

Also, if I bought one and tried to use it instead of my current (t-mobile) GSM phone, could I also actually get to the internet from it? Or would I find that t-mobile blocks it, and I'd have to get some expensive new service to use it?

I'd be interested in building some software for it. But I'm sorta curious about whether I could actually start writing my own network apps right now, using my current cell-phone contract. Or would I have to write the low-level comms stuff (which could be fun, too), and sign up for some new contract? Or would I maybe find that I can't actually use it with any cell-phone system in the US?

Maybe I should wander around at random in their web site some more; eventually I might stumble across answers to the most basic questions.

Yes; I've found - and read - the FAQ. It doesn't seem to answer such questions. So I've remained in the "wait and watch" state of curiosity until the answers pop up somewhere. ;-)

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Imagine if, the next time you were to buy a soda at your favorite fast food joint, you were offered the choice of a 10 oz., a 11 oz., or a 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, ad infinitum oz. drink, rather than small, medium, or large.

I only wish. Then maybe people would stop turning into whimpering piles of pus when given too much choice!

It really doesn't take a genius to look at those choices and figure out that a 10 oz is small, and a 30 or 40 oz is large. Yes, offering it in 1 oz increments is a bit extreme, but it also should not cause a problem for you.

Of course, the right way to do this is even easier: Offer small, medium, and large, and specify how much each is -- along with the option to ask for exactly how much you need. And maybe, too, it's a bad analogy. But I do find it pathetic that people need things dumbed down because there's too much choice. If it's really so bad, just close your eyes and pick one at random!

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[retro128]

You have a point, but I see it this way: The iPhone is just the latest in line of a bunch of hyped up cell phones that all the teenagers and others with too much disposable income can't wait to get their hands on. Commercials can sell phones to these guys, but what then?

Yes, the Neo1973/OpenMoko appeals to geeks. But who sells technology? Who does Average Joe roll up on when it's time to make a technology purchase? They come to the geek who plays with this stuff all the time. Now, I don't make recommendations strictly out of philosophical leanings, so as much as I like the idea of the Neo1973, it's not a shoe-in for recommendation. But if someone asks me about the Iphone I will tell them "Well if you want to pay $600 up front and a ridiculous monthly fee, you'll be able to browse the Net, play videos and music, email, and..umm..that's about it, then it's for you"

The only thing out of that list my customers want is email. The rest is fluff, and it's certainly not something they're willing to pay that kind of money for. Hardware-wise, the Neo1973 has, or will have, GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, and a touch screen. Software-wise, the sky's the limit...ANYONE can develop apps for this thing and run them natively as opposed to having to rely on a Java layer. Do you really not think some awesome software will come out of this? If OpenMoko can't do something the Iphone does, it can certainly be made to. Privacy is also a factor. The phone is on a completely open platform, so we don't have to worry about what kind of information it's leaking to the carrier.

Now the million dollar questions are, how does OpenMoko run? Is it fast? Free of glitches? Intuitive? Until I get my hands on it I want to avoid getting too excited. Even if OpenMoko is not a success, I sincerely hope this is the beginning way of how cell phones are built - Not so much black box electronic devices, but more like PCs, where the user has control - not the manufacturer.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[tchuladdiass]

First question -- yes they do have a working dialer application.

Second -- Yep, you can use all the services you are subscribed too on your regular t-mobile phone. T-mobile is fairly good about not locking you into their own phones (with the exception of the my-faves application, you either have to make your selections on a supported phone or online).

Third -- As long as you have a data plan of some sort, you can do any type of network app you want. The 5.99 t-zones plan limits which ports you can connect through, but you can always set up a proxy server on your home dsl/cable connect server if you want. The 29.99 plan has most of the ports open (except certain streaming media ports I think).

There really needs to be a wiki page for using it on each carrier, that would help a lot. Your questions get asked all the time on the mailing lists, and the answers vary a bit.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[nanosquid]

Well, the iPhone is definitely not giving me the apps I want, while phones costing a small fraction of the iPhone do.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[bfields]

Neo1912324, running OpenMoko, released just for developers for now and later for I don't know who and later maybe for everyone. For sale now in some places, if you can find it. What does it do? It's got advanced features running on Linux and is unlocked. Normal people will see absolutely nothing in that phone, never mind how we, geeks, are salivating at it, if the marketing and branding effort is so weak. Sorry.

They'd be nuts to be marketing this to "normal people" at this point. They want people who will have fun hacking it, not people looking for a phone to use day-to-day.

And, yeah, even after they start mass-marketing it in the fall they're still not going to take over the entire market. So what? That doesn't mean they won't find a healthy niche for themselves.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[linuxrocks123]

> Wrong. You're not getting ANYTHING close to being "a ton more", except .... POTENTIAL.

No, that's not true. The phone will come with bundled software you can use to do common tasks, just like the iPhone. If you're not interested in developing apps for the phone, you won't have to. However, if you are interested, the ability will be there for you.

I am interested; the ability to run arbitrary Unix C++ code on my phone is an important feature for me, because I have written a PIM in C++ for Linux. It is currently ported to my Sun workstation, my HP laptop, and my Sharp Zaurus. A phone's development environment is a feature for me, not a sign of potential.

I carefully avoided saying that you were getting a ton more from the Neo1973 because the OSS community will port tons of stuff to it, since you're correct that this is not certain (though I think it likely). I said you're getting a ton more from the Neo1973 because of the hardware features, even if the only way you use them is through the generic bundled software that comes with the phone.

That is, /even in the worst case/, I think you're getting a ton more from the Neo1973 than from the iPhone.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[tftp]

So what? That doesn't mean they won't find a healthy niche for themselves.

100% of cell phones in USA are sold by network operators or on their behalf (iPhone.) I don't think that a consumer would even know that he can buy a 3rd party phone. Besides, the phone companies would be discouraging this because of many reasons (impossible to support, perceived risk to the network, and most importantly lack of their beloved lock-ins and of the forced use of the network when you don't have to.)

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Archangel Michael]

You sir, are a geek. You think like a geek, act like a geek, and most importantly, are arrogant, like a geek. You are one in 10,000 or 100,000. You are not the marketplace.

Your little PIM you are so proud of, probably wouldn't make it in the world if you gave it away.

And the Neo1973 may be able to do lots of things, but it isn't as easy or user friendly as the iPhone. So, development of the iPhone, adding applications and such will be measured in time.

I'd be willing to bet, that there will be more application, more development and the iPhone will have many more versions available in 5 years than the Neo1973 will. I'd even be willing to bet that the Neo1973 or relatives might be extinct by then.

Hardware features only turn on hardware geeks (like you and me). Most people only care that a phone does what it supposed to do, and well. They might care about storage, and screen size, but they don't care which ARM or whatever processor is in the thing. They just want it to work.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[linuxrocks123]

> You sir, are a geek. You think like a geek, act like a geek, and most importantly, are arrogant, like a geek. You are one in 10,000 or 100,000. You are not the marketplace.

> Your little PIM you are so proud of, probably wouldn't make it in the world if you gave it away.

You, sir, are an asshole. I know I'm a geek (damn proud of it, too). And I don't care if other people use my PIM; it was designed with me as its sole intended user. What's this have to do with anything?

> And the Neo1973 may be able to do lots of things, but it isn't as easy or user friendly as the iPhone.

Considering that the Neo1973 hasn't been released in its final form, you have no basis for that statement.

> So, development of the iPhone, adding applications and such will be measured in time.

To the extent that statement makes any sense, there's no SDK for the iPhone, so there won't be any applications added in time.

> I'd be willing to bet, that there will be more application, more development and the iPhone will have many more versions available in 5 years than the Neo1973 will. I'd even be willing to bet that the Neo1973 or relatives might be extinct by then.

Nah, not more applications. The Neo1973 will have most of standard Linux, while the iPhone might have "Weather applet" or "Quicktime 3000" or similar Apple-generated nonsense.

As far as more versions, well, Apple usually doesn't get products even minimally stable/working the first time out the door, so probably yeah.

As far as Neo1973 being extinct, well I hope not because I think it's a cool project, but I don't know. Lots of good products aren't commercially successful. I was stating that Neo1973 was a good product, and superior to the iPhone, not that it would be a commercial success.

Re:Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Archangel Michael]

"Considering that the Neo1973 hasn't been released in its final form, you have no basis for that statement."

This is laughable, if it weren't so sad. You're comparing unreleased vaporware saying it is better than something already out there? You probably like DukeNukemForever over any other game because of all of its promises.

"To the extent that statement makes any sense, there's no SDK for the iPhone, so there won't be any applications added in time."

Lets compare, okay. Unreleased vaporware vs a real product without a SDK (that you know of). I bet there will be new programs built for iPhone before vapor can dissipate.

"he Neo1973 will have most of standard Linux, while the iPhone might have "Weather applet" or "Quicktime 3000" or similar Apple-generated nonsense."

iPhone runs OS X, in case you missed it. OS X is BSD based Unix, in case you missed it.

"As far as Neo1973 being extinct, well I hope not"

If wishes where horses .....

"You, sir, are an asshole."

Not really, I'm an arrogant geek, just like you. I've just grown up.

And then Boom!-Trend follower

[Anonymous Coward]

2007 will be the year of the Lphone.

great screen, too

[nanosquid]

Note that the screen is 640x480 pixels; this may be the first phone with good enough pixel density and resolution for decent handheld reading. And the fact that it's open source means that you aren't locked into an ebook reader.

Re:great screen, too

[MadUndergrad]

If only it had an e-ink screen I'd be sorely tempted.

Re:great screen, too

[TubeSteak]

How much reading are you going to do on a 2.8" screen?
Even if it is 640x480?

Re:great screen, too

[dfghjk]

and then again, it may not be the first.

VGA smartphones: http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdalist&list=vga

even higher res smartphones: http://www.pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdalist&list=vgap lus

Of course, being open source there's no promise that you'll ever have any decent reader to get locked into.

Re:great screen, too

[nanosquid]

Look at the release dates. Also, many of those devices just can't be called "phones"; they are mini-laptops with SIM slots.

Re:great screen, too

[ceeam]

No. It's not the first. This one for example is selling everywhere for some time now:

http://www.google.com/search?q=glofish+x500%2B

Re:great screen, too

[kommers]

Newspapers (in paper) often contain articles with 2.8" wide columns -- and I thought those 'papers were meant for reading! I mean, I think your eye will quickly adapt to a text with relatively narrow pagewidth. While not having to jump so much horizontally, you can rather scroll the text with your thumb on the hand holding the device in a tempo suiting your own reading pace to compensate for the vertical eye movement for each line. I think it'll work out fine, reading several meters of 2.8" wide books quite neatly.

Re:great screen, too

[CoreDump01]

I am one of the few lucky "P0" developers and already own a Neo1973 for a few month now. The screen is almost perfect for e-book reading due to its awesome brilliance and bightness.
The only problem right now is patching existing e-book reader software for use with the neo ( ie: change pages by tapping the touchscreen as the Neo does not have any keys etc ).
I personally used the "BlueTooth Remote" function of a certain unnamed mobile (heh) to change pages on the Neo wirelessly ;)

iPhonekiller?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in order to be a iPhone-killer, it has to: be able to view YouTube-movies, have advanced widgets and an iPod-like media player.

Or not!

OH God! ROTFL

[rueger]

This device could very well stand as a competitor to the more expensive Apple iPhone,

I'm sorry, but can we get just a little reality check here? And I'm someone who thinks the iPhone is 80% hype.

Re:OH God! ROTFL

[blackicye]

*boggle* I've been using a Linux based Motorola phone for over 2 years, this model is about 4 years old.

When I last posted about my Motorola e680i (a low priced phone, for the China market) the only responses I got here were that I was elitist and linux phones weren't for everyone..

pfeh..now all of a sudden its cool.

There are a couple on sale on ebay at the moment from $36 to $195.

Re:OH God! ROTFL

[pturing]

Your motorola runs Linux, huh? Well sure, I guess that's cool.

I mean that's great and all, but is there hardware documentation and source code for everything? Is there any possibility of hacking it to record conversations in progress? Can I install a instant messenger program that supports the protocol my coworkers use, and integrates with the phone's existing UI? What about deleting all the pre-installed themes and ringtones to free up memory for the stuff I actually want? If I want to pay someone to write a plug-in to sync it to my favorite PIM, will I be able to provide them with the needed information to do it?

Linux phones are a novelty. Open source, open design phones, Linux or otherwise, are a godsend.

Re:OH God! ROTFL

[geminidomino]

I like the look of it, but I have a few concerns about it.

Does it have bluetooth? If so, does it suffer from the same crippled ringtone issue with bluetooth (when using a bluetooth headset, the phone will not use assigned ringtones). That's what led me to the Sync instead of the Razr after I got tired of it with my v551.

Re:OH God! ROTFL

[blackicye]

Actually yes to almost all your questions. With the time/money/inclination you can do probably all of the above.

You can find out more at http://www.motorolafans.com/ not my site, but thats where I download firmware updates, apps, read up on the latest projects etc.

Re:OH God! ROTFL

[blackicye]

Yes it does have bluetooth, but I'm not sure if it suffers the ringtone issue you've described, I don't own a bluetooth headset (nor do I use the phone while driving)

The handwriting recognition is pretty good and doesn't need training, but I usually use the virtual qwerty keyboard and stylus, as such sending messages on this phone is a 2 handed affair.

I know the A1200 and the E6 Rokr are both also running Linux, and the bluetooth/ringtone works fine on those.

Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[nanosquid]

This smacks of the same sort of complaint-response attitude that drives the also-ran category in the music player market.

Possibly. Or possibly Apple got it wrong with the iPhone. Or possibly Apple got it wrong and they are still going to win through monopolistic practices and marketing. All one can do is try to develop a better product and see whether one can compete.

Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar.

Why the hell would I want to sync with anything on my desktop? I want to sync with Yahoo! and Google and eMusic and Democracy and applications like those, over the air, without having to rely on a flaky and bulky desktop PC or Mac and without having a costly .Mac subscription. The iPhone view of the world is broken as far as I'm concerned.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Nastard]

.Mac isn't required or even used, unless you count the ability to pull down your email.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[nanosquid]

No, right now, .Mac isn't used--you're tethered to your desktop. But .Mac is the most likely future direction for OTA sync on the iPhone.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Ohreally_factor]

I have no inside information, I'm just picking up clues and reading the tea leaves. And I think you're 100% correct. I think Apple and Google are in partnership to build a completely revamped .mac. I don't think it will even be called .mac anymore. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if Apple releases some sync APIs sooner rather than later. They (meaning Google and Apple) might even try to create an open sync standard.

I also think you're right in approaching smart phones as mobile thin clients, although you didn't use those exact words. (Remember Larry Elison used to be on Apple's board and is still reportedly close friends with Jobs.) The battle between open phone OSes vs. proprietary phone OSes obfuscates the real philosophical differences between a phone being a thin client and a phone being either an extension of the desktop or a miniaturized desktop. I'm rooting for thin client. A phone is one of the only places (perhaps the only place) that a thin client makes sense in the consumer space.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[mjwx]

No, apple and google aren't co-operating, that is just wishful thinking on your part.

The iphone will never achieve the kind of success you are imagining because of one simple factor. The Mobile phone market is already saturated. When apple released their ipod there were few companies in the MP3 player market an none of them took it seriously (portable CD players was where the money was at the time) this changed at the right time and apple captialized. The phone market is not changing and the iphone is not doing anything new. The major competitors such as Motorola, Nokia or even Samsung aren't concerned about the iphone, they already have equivalent products at a cheaper price in addition to this the iphone is competing with ordinary mobiles.

In the mobile market (or the business market) the apple brand does not carry a lot of weight, not like a Nokia or a Blackberry and with the restrictions on the iphone this is not likely to change. At the US$500 price tag they are competing with PDA phones which means targeting the business market. Apples phone business will be less successful than their PC business.
 

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Ohreally_factor]

You must not get out much not to know about the Google/Apple partnership, which Eric Schmidt was gushing about at the Paris Google event.

Anyway, care to wager anything, seeing as how you are so sure that the iPhone won't amount to much? And what's a "PDA Phone"? This would be a good place for one of those "The 90s called and it wants its X back" jokes, but how is the 90s supposed to call if you've got its goddamn PDA phone.

Back to the proposed wager. I'll bet you my foolish optimism against your lack of imagination.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[phaggood]

> The Mobile phone market is already saturated

Perhaps, but on a rolling 24month schedule. The thing about cell phones is people tend to upgrade them more - I'm guessing that the industry standard 2yr agreements have "programmed" consumers to start thinking about switching/upgrading their service (and usually, equipment) every 2yrs.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[illumin8]

Or possibly Apple got it wrong and they are still going to win through monopolistic practices and marketing.

How can Apple win through monopolistic practices when they didn't have any market share in smartphones AT ALL a little over a week ago?

All one can do is try to develop a better product and see whether one can compete.

Indeed. Kudos to Apple for showing the rest of the market how it is done.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Anonymous Coward]

Kudos to Apple for showing the rest of the market how it is done.

Ahh yes, "how it is done", for $600 phones locked to a single carrier, with features copied nearly item for item from existing phones (Nokia N95, still a better choice than the iPhone despite the price premium). Forgive me for being blunt, but if it wasn't for the hype by the fanboy press who push everything Apple, the iPhone would not be nearly as notable of a release. It will be very interesting to see if, once all the idiot fanboys who will buy anything with an Apple logo on it have dissipated, if the iPhone will continue to be successful.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[IpalindromeI]

If you win, you get his lack of imagination? Sounds like a bad bet.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[nanosquid]

And what's a "PDA Phone"? This would be a good place for one of those "The 90s called and it wants its X back" jokes, but how is the 90s supposed to call if you've got its goddamn PDA phone.

What makes a phone a "PDA phone" is its requirement to sync with the desktop; that's exactly what makes the iPhone an anachronism. This is the 21st century, and these days we sync OTA using 3G networks, or we simply assume "always on" connectivity.

Back to the proposed wager. I'll bet you my foolish optimism against your lack of imagination.

Actually, it's you who lacks imagination: except for its looks and UI, the iPhone is a throwback to the times of the Palm: a bunch of apps with desktop synchronization.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[nanosquid]

How can Apple win through monopolistic practices when they didn't have any market share in smartphones AT ALL a little over a week ago?

Apple is leveraging their near-monopoly in the music player market to get into the phone market.

Indeed. Kudos to Apple for showing the rest of the market how it is done.

Where exactly do you think Apple innovated? The iPhone seems little more than a Treo with a touch screen and an updated UI.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[illumin8]

Where exactly do you think Apple innovated? The iPhone seems little more than a Treo with a touch screen and an updated UI.

Well, I don't want to get into a complete feature list on the iPhone, but I think where they've created a revolutionary experience is in web browsing. Web browsing on the iPhone is almost as good as it is on the desktop. If you haven't tried it and compared it to a Treo, you don't know how revolutionary it is.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Ohreally_factor]

You have no idea of all the things I could do if I had a lack of imagination.

I'd probably just clean it up and sell it on ebay, though.

It's a bad bet, but the odds are in my favor on this one.

Re:Apple got it wrong (but may still win)

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I don't want to get into a complete feature list on the iPhone,

There is no need to, because most of it is pretty much the same as existing smart phones.

but I think where they've created a revolutionary experience is in web browsing

All Symbian phones have had a KHTML-based browser with zoom-scroll for quite some time. The iPhone may have a better-engineered implementation of it, but that doesn't make it "innovation".

Web browsing on the iPhone is almost as good as it is on the desktop.

With EDGE-only rates and an on-screen keyboard, I don't think so.

#1 Feature not in article summary

[ari_j]

It's not surprising that it was missed in the summary, but the Neo1973 is a GSM phone. There doesn't seem to be any public word on whether a CDMA version is in the works or if it's even practicable (it's definitely possible, but getting a CDMA carrier to activate it may not be). Too bad I'm one of the many unlucky Americans to live and breathe outside GSM coverage.

Re:#1 Feature not in article summary

[jonwil]

There is more chance of George W Bush giving Kim Jong-il the fire codes to the US nuclear missiles than there is of Verizon Wireless letting you use a cellphone with the ability for the end user to run ANY non-Verizon-approved code.

Re:#1 Feature not in article summary

[ari_j]

Believe me, I wasn't thinking Verizon. Why would they ever let me have a phone that can so much as use a ringtone that I didn't get them $2.99 to choose from a library of low-grade hip-hip and Britney Spears knock-offs? And heaven forbid that I should be able to synchronize my phone's contact list using Bluetooth and any software that I didn't give Verizon $50 for. Fortunately, there are a few CDMA providers with great nationwide coverage and an attitude other than "how can we fleece our customers for a few more bucks today?" Of course, that still doesn't mean they'd freely let me hook up a crazy homespun phone and play around.

Re:#1 Feature not in article summary

[Mad Marlin]

Just go with a GSM carrier. I specifically decided when I got my current cellphone to ONLY go with a provider that will allow unlocked GSM phones, T-Mobile specifically in my case, but there are others.

Re:#1 Feature not in article summary

[ari_j]

Here is a map of reasonable GSM coverage in the USA that is far more realistic than, for instance, AT&T's attempts to convince me that they have the "largest network" in the country (which by their own map is not true as it does not cover nearly the area that Verizon and Alltel cover with their CDMA nationwide roaming plans). See that 85% of the country with no GSM coverage at all? That's where I spend 95% of my time. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't get a wireless plan that doesn't cover my parents' house. CDMA gives me digital coverage in all but the most remote parts of the country, including 4 bars at my parents' house.

/.'ed

[pturing]

I'm on their mailing list.
I get the announcement e-mail.
Maybe I'll get one and get in on the dev action.
That's weird, the site's not responding.
I wonder what killed their web server;
I don't think there's that many people on the list.
Oh well, I wonder what's on slashdot...

Re:/.'ed

[LosManos]

hejdig.

That was probably
the worst haiku I have ever read!
Even worse than this /OF

/.ed

[slack_prad]

The website has been hammered down. Weren't they told this would be on slashdot?

Re:And then Boom!

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

It's like an iPhone but uglier!

Hmmmmmn, if you ask me, making you buy a track you allready own (on CD) - just to use it as a ring tone is pretty fucking ugly.

Beauty isn't just skin deep.

Re:And then Boom!

[kestasjk]

Uglier, but cheaper and more functional. Yeah, that's pretty much open source in a nutshell.

Power? Go Green: Hand cranked option

[Anonymous Coward]

Third world countries and trekkers in first world countries need o have a hand-cranked mobile phone with emergency radio reception. Else it will be just another phone by bunch of nerds..like a linux pc

Re:Power? Go Green: Hand cranked option

[cp.tar]

Well, in that case maybe you should look into rPhone...

It features custom ringtones, satellite connectivity with Killerwave(TM) technology, vibrating action and steampunk technology.

Arrrrrrrrrr!

Re:Power? Go Green: Hand cranked option

[sortius_nod]

shame on those nerds for making advancements in technology...

shame on those nerds for writing the software that processes your paycheque...

shame on those nerds for developing the computer you are using...

silly nerds, get back to looking like a dork and speaking in languages the plebs don't understand... just so they can throw rotting meat at you.

Re:Power? Go Green: Hand cranked option

[Anonymous Coward]

That would certainly solve my daughters yapping problem... Want to continue to talk honey? Gotta CRANK!!!

Actually....hmm

Re:Power? Go Green: Hand cranked option

[SL Baur]

That's not true. Even the jungles of the Philippines have GSM cell phone coverage (at least in the places where there is a power grid).

Open Source?

[Phroggy]

So uhh.. where's the source code? I didn't see any mention of source code or documentation on their web site; did I miss it?

Obviously the GPL doesn't compel them to release the code publicly; they're only required to make any GPL-derived source code available to people who buy the phone (and those people may redistribute it). Still, the best way of complying with the license is to make the source code freely downloadable on their web site (like this).

Re:Open Source?

[mmontour]

So uhh.. where's the source code? I didn't see any mention of source code or documentation on their web site; did I miss it? Look on the Wiki and on projects.openmoko.org.

Re:Open Source?

[kju]

Due to the fact that Harald Welte (maintainer of iptables - you know, the guy who sues companies not following the GPL!) is one of the developers of this phone, i'm very sure that they will follow the GPL exactly. Stop spreading FUD.

Re:Open Source?

[Phroggy]

I wasn't trying to spread FUD, I was trying to find the source code, because I couldn't find it linked from their home page. I have now been steered in the right direction.

Symbian vs. Linux

[MBHkewl]

The only mobile phones that I ever owned were the Nokia Communicator series (9110i, 9250 & 9500), and I am SICK of Symbian. Yes, the keyboard is very nice, but the crappy OS which crashes on very inconvenient times is just too much. When I pay $900 for a phone, I expect it to work for at least 3 years before crapping on me.

Nokia has moved away from reliability long time ago and got on the fancy-wagon. Their new E90 phone (new communicator) is very sexy, especially with the built-in GPS chip, but I guess I'll make a sacrifice for a phone that is willing to give what I had paid for.

I've been waiting for a very long time for a Linux phone, 3 more months won't make much of a difference.

Nokia: UP YOURS!

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I am currently using iPhone (duck). but I would love to get neo1973. I am long time linux user. I can do some development on it. But GTA02 look way better than GTA01. the only concern is the CPU speed. can S3C2410 266MHz can handle both radio and other feature well ?

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[Ohreally_factor]

I'm not sure that there is any truth to this, but I heard that Symbian is known internally at Nokia as POS OS. They're working on a linux phone, but I have no idea how far along they are, nor how much resources they're throwing at it.

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[ladybugfi]

If reliability is your biggest gripe with Symbian, how do you think that a phone a) with a brand new HW & SW combination
and b) which has been just released will be significantly better?

I have had a Nokia E70 about a year and it crashes/reboots about once in 3 months. While I would prefer zero crashes, this rate is in the acceptable range to me. I could be persuaded to play with a MokoPhone (whoever designed the name Neo 1973 has no clue about marketing), but I would not have it as my primary phone for a loooong time.

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had a Nokia E70 about a year and it crashes/reboots about once in 3 months.

When I dumped my Nokia 9110, it was more like once in 3 minutes.

Trying to connect to the company network, I could get to the login prompt, and if I was fast I even had time to type my login and MAYBE password before the POS restarted.

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[MBHkewl]

YES! I'm willing to put my trust in a company that had the guts to endorse Linux as its OS & has made all its changes available to the public.

New hardware? PLEASE! Neo uses an ARM based processor, which is the same as the iPhones and there are a few Linux kernel mods to work on ARM based processors.
If you go to their wiki page, the links state: "kernel - The Linux kernel we use, including documentation for our modifications"
Which means, that they're using a kernel that is meant to run on that specific hardware, with a few mods.

My 9500 crashes when I open the cover. The external speaker software crashes while I'm using it. The internal LCD takes 10 seconds to realize that I had opened the cover. The SD memory doesn't get read. I have to remove it & stick it back many times, before it works. The phone reboots if I receive a phone call. The phone shows full reception from a base-station, even though there is NO coverage. I'll stop here, because my blood pressure is rising.

OpenMoko has been working on this for a reasonable time, and they have released the developer & hacker versions to allow for even further debugging of abusive usage, so that when the final platform is out, it's ready for the mass-production users.

I'll gladly pay $300 and hop on their wagon, I'll report every single bug to them, to help the company produce even more stable (assuming unstability) software & OS. This is NOT what I'm willing to do for Nokia, because Nokia has moved away from its users, and got closer to the user's pockets.

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[TheRaven64]

I own two Nokia devices, an N70 and a 770. I've owned both for around 18 months (the N70 for slightly longer than the 770). The N70 runs Symbian, and I've never had it crash completely. I have had the bluetooth stack die, requiring a reboot, however. The 770 runs Linux, and I've never managed to use it for more than an hour without it crashing. On one occasion it crashed so badly that it couldn't reboot without re-flashing (fortunately, most of my data was stored on the RS-MMC).

Linux is a really horrible OS for mobile devices. It has a much bigger footprint than Symbian (or eCos, or even NetBSD or OpenBSD; I've run both quite happily on devices with lower specs than the 770), and doesn't handle low memory conditions at all gracefully.

Re:Symbian vs. Linux

[FireFury03]

The N70 runs Symbian, and I've never had it crash completely.

Symbian UIQ crashes quite frequently on my P900 - never completely, but usually to a point where you can't accept calls or power the phone down (remove battery time)

Linux is a really horrible OS for mobile devices. It has a much bigger footprint than Symbian

Symbian is missing some stuff that is _required_ for stability - for example, memory protection. The hardware spec of these phones has now got to the point where I care much less about footprint than stability. Symbian is horribly unstable and I'm sick of it, I would expect Linux to be extremely stable.

Re:And then Boom!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're joking, right?

Insert CD, open iTunes, import CD, sync to iPhone.

no vendor lock-in?

[The Nipponese]

Other parts of the US aside, here in the Bay Area, T-Mobile is complete garbage. So, that only leaves the OTHER gsm provider in the game... the hated AT&T. Might as well spend the extra cash get the iPhone, if you ask me.

I consider it a public service.

[Kadin2048]

Actually I think anything that discourages people from using polyphonic ringtones is GREAT.

I really don't want to hear the first 10 second of the latest pop-crap song repeated over and over, every time I so much as step outside my house. A ringing phone is obnoxious enough to try and ignore; a polyphonic/MP3-playing one is far worse.

That feature by itself is probably going to drive more sales of cellphone-jamming and blocking equipment than anything else.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Actually I think anything that discourages people from using polyphonic ringtones is GREAT.

I can see where you're coming from POP song wise, but mp3 ringtones are not just pop songs. I used to have Bonobo's flutter as my ringtone - its an effective ringtone & not as irriating as many.

I hope you're imagination isn't so limited that you can't come up with a few other scenarios where a custom ringtone is extremely useful.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[radl33t]

'extremely' useful? Let your brilliant imagination shine.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

'extremely' useful? Let your brilliant imagination shine.

A good friend of mine is:

1) Partially deaf - has real trouble with certain tones.
2) Employed in a data centre with more white noise than you can poke a stick at.

He can't hear any of the default ringtones on his phone - he ended up using a recording of his grandpa's old school PSTN phone. The only thing he can hear.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[radl33t]

Frankly, your imagination sucks.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Well, that's not from my imagination, but from life.

A imaginary scenario where I'd find an mp3 ringtone incredibly useful would be one where the mp3 ringtone can kick radleeters in the balls when it detects them.

Re:I consider it a public service.

[radl33t]

Neither of those count. I eat pressure waves for breakfast.

Re:And then Boom!

[humina]

You're joking, right?

Insert CD, open iTunes, import CD, sync to iPhone.

And the setting to make that your song a ringtone is where? Cingular won't allow apple to set songs as ringtones because it interferes with their business model of squeezing every last penny out of your pocket. The grandparent was commenting on custom ringtones, not making the iphone act as an ipod.

Re:And then Boom!

[Anonymous Coward]

My bad.

How to make money

[mach1980]

This is a great tool for startups that want to develop some new interesting features for mobile communication devices without going through the hassle of developing hardware and mechanics.

Sign me up for one of those!

Re:How to make money

[hoppy]

Exactly! I blogged on the shared phone : http://aptustech.com/?q=node/5. Nokia recently launched a range of new phone specifically targeted to the emerging markets. Two very interesting features are : several directory for several users of the same phone, and a basic accounting mode for rented phone. This two features are really needed in the developing countries where the equation 1 person = 1 phone is totally wrong.

With the first truly open phone we can expect a lot of experiment and new applications which will adapt the phone to the people and not the people to the phone

They don't care so long as you're on contract

[bADlOGIN]

You sign a contract, they don't give a crap what the hell you put a SIM in.
Just that you pay your bill (and perhaps rack up some overage).
In fact, if you didn't buy the phone from them, they have less to deal with
if you have hardware problems. T-Mobile has no issues with doing that
what so ever.

Access the GSM telephony any way you like

[Anonymous Coward]

It locks you out of accessing the hardware fully, in the same vein that Tivo does.

Rubbish, your comparison with the Tivo is completely wrong in all respects.

The Tivo doesn't allow you to run your own code in place of theirs, which is one of the key problems that GPLv3 seeks to overcome, ie. tivoization.

In contrast the Neo1973/OpenMoko is totally open-source by design, so you can replace any supplied host code by your own without restriction. The telephony applications are not locked at all, because the entire GSM command set is available at the AT interface, not just a small subset, and not just limited functionality. You can make the phone side work any way you like, even under the control of any other application, totally freely.

You seem to be quibbling that the firmware behind the AT interface is not available for reprogramming. Well that wouldn't give you greater GSM functionality, it would *modify* GSM itself, which isn't the intention at all, and it wouldn't be certifiable by the FCC nor any other GSM operator anyway, so it would be impossible to sell the unit as a GSM phone. Calling for that shows no understanding at all.

Re:Access the GSM telephony any way you like

[hyperbotfly]

Rubbish, your comparison with the Tivo is completely wrong in all respects.
The Tivo doesn't allow you to run your own code in place of theirs, which is one of the key problems that GPLv3 seeks to overcome, ie. tivoization. In contrast the Neo1973/OpenMoko is totally open-source by design, so you can replace any supplied host code by your own without restriction.

You're missing the point - the fact is that moving drivers out of the kernel and into the firmware in order to restrict the user from being able to modify them is a CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE GPL. This is in a similar vein (notice the orginal post didn't say exact same case) of the what Tivo did to restrict users from modifying code.

Well that wouldn't give you greater GSM functionality, it would *modify* GSM itself, which isn't the intention at all, and it wouldn't be certifiable by the FCC nor any other GSM operator anyway, so it would be impossible to sell the unit as a GSM phone. Calling for that shows no understanding at all.

Of course it would be certifiable as a GSM device because it would ship with complete GSM functionality. The ability to modify that via software does not render it invalid as a communications device. If that were so, GNU radio hardware would be illegal. Apparently you the one here that shows no understanding of the device or the issue at hand at all.

This sounds awesome....

[martin_henry]

...but my carrier (Verizon) told me I wouldn't be able to use my GSM/sim card based Sony Ericsson t610 in america when I moved from Australia. Where will this OpenMoko phone work?

Re:This sounds awesome....

[SeaFox]

...but my carrier (Verizon) told me I wouldn't be able to use my GSM/sim card based Sony Ericsson t610 in america when I moved from Australia. Where will this OpenMoko phone work?

Why are you asking a CDMA carrier for advice on GSM phones?

The T610 is a triband {900, 1800, 1900 mhz) phone. It works fine here. In fact, it's what T-Mobile sold subsidized in the U.S. market. Later came the T616, which was the same phone but supported the 850mhz band instead of the 900 so it would work with Cingular.

Re:This sounds awesome....

[martin_henry]

Ah, alright. in Australia, carriers aren't divided by the broadcasting technology. I figured a major telco would provide both in America as well.

Sadly, no buttons again...

[Athrun Zala]

With a few REAL buttons here and there, it could be an amazing platform to run every imaginable Gameboy/Gamegear/Lynx/InsertYourFavourite handheld console emulator that already exist for Linux. AND a cell phone as a bonus, of course.

I'd buy THAT in a heartbeat.

Without a bunch of buttons, well... It's just yet another cellphone and ebook reader. You can forget games (except mine sweeper!), you can forget any application that needs more control than "drag up, drag down, clicky, next page, clicky, yawn". Hardly every others geek's dream. But hey, I can wait a few more years, even if it's like waiting for a miracle.

Re:Sadly, no buttons again...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use bluetooth keyboard (or usb keyboard connected via self-powered minihub)

Re:Sadly, no buttons again...

[WastedMeat]

I am not a dev, but the device does feature a USB port and a linux kernel. It might be a bit bulky, but is there any reason to assume that a gamepad, or even a keyboard for that matter, could not be made to work with minimal effort?

Re:Sadly, no buttons again...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want an open source handheld games emulator that runs linux then just buy one:
http://www.gbax.com/ :)

I saw one at LugRadio live at the weekend and they are very nice, the only reason I did not get one is that I don't play games :)

Re:Sadly, no buttons again...

[babbling]

You should check out the Nintendo DS if you think that games need buttons. I acknowledge that some games do, but it's very possible to make cool games that don't require anything more than a stylus.

Re:Sadly, no buttons again...

[Athrun Zala]

You are right, in case you want to play only few of those "new" games, with environments and gameplay suited for stylus and/or touch screens (and by the way, Nintendo DS does have buttons. Plenty of them). But what about hundereds and thousands of games ALREADY out there, that are known to be great for years and decades and perfectly capable to run on any modern cell phone hardware under emulation? What about even more native games that can be ported or made for this thing? Can you imagine playing Mortal Kombat with a stylus? I don't think so. And why I'm still forced during my daily commute to the work to cary with me:
- cell phone
- handheld (those common cell phone screens are useless for any reading)
- music player (in case I don't want to play in a loop the same three mp3 tunes that occupy my cell phone's whole memory)
- gaming console (in case I'm tired of reading, just want to fire up a good beat-em-up and ignore the crowd around me for a while) All the necessary hardware is already there, only thing missing are buttons and you have one less bulky device to carry with you all the time.

HSDPA or UMTS capabilities?

[Thilo2]

Currently, I still live without a mobile phone, though a phone like this one could get my interest peaked enough to buy something like this. The only thing is I'd really want HSDPA or at least UMTS as this is becoming affordable in germany at this time and provides for nice data rates. Are there going to be phones that support it and running OpenMoko in the near future? If this project was not in Alpha status, this would be the knock-out criterium.

code, hell. I want a non-proprietary BATTERY.

[phr1]

I mean, if I want a hackable communications device, that's what computers and wifi are for. With phones I just want reliable POTS service, a voice phone with no computer crap, that powers up when I turn it on. And that's the hassle, all cell phones including this OpenMoko thing seem to use proprietary batteries that need special chargers. If you go to any airport there's ALWAYS folks huddled around power outlets trying to charge their phones. The batteries are an expensive pain in the ass to replace, you need to tote more junk around to keep them charged, etc.

I've been looking all over for a phone that uses ordinary commodity NiMH AA or AAA cells, that I can buy anywhere anytime cheaply, and that use the same chargers as all the rest of my portable crap. Making such a phone has to be a LOT easier than running Linux on the phone or anything like that. It used to be common. But it doesn't exist any more.

Help, pleeeease???

What's the status?

[wall0159]

I couldn't see anything about how far in its development it is. There are no videos of operation, just screenshots which could have been GIMPd. Anyone know if it's actually usable, or if it is very very alpha?

Re:What's the status?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Introduction (there are some obscure videos)
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

And a RTFM .

Re:What's the status?

[galorin]

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU Try it yourself, there's a Windows QEMU binary in there. Runs slow on my laptop, but it is an emulated environment

Re:What's the status?

[Yosho]

The main page of the wiki says, "Currently it is not suitable for users. The state of the software at the moment is pre-alpha. If you order a Neo1973, DO NOT expect to be able to use it as an everyday phone for several months." There you go.

1973?

[Anonymous Coward]

ummm, that was more than 30 years ago. At least name it with a more recent year!

Three things and I'm in

[Anonymous Coward]

If it'll run Flite (or festival, or some other TTS), bash, and mpeg123.

I'd do it today if someone knows of a way to integrate speech recognition (even if it's lame)

Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[TibbonZero]

If you look at the announcement about the "consumer" version of the phone (as not all of us feel like 'hacking' our phones on a daily basis just to make them work) here, then you'll see in the annoucement that it's not really any cheaper than the iPhone.

From the announcement:
We will sell this device through multiple channels. Direct from openmoko.com, the price will be $450 for the Neo Base and $600 for Neo Advanced.

Hmm. $450 (likely plus shipping) sounds an aweful lot close to the 4gb iPhone, and $600 sounds about a dollar more than the $599 iPhone.
Maybe it's not really cheaper. Yea, you can get the developer version, without the 3d graphics support for $300 (without the developer tools!) or when you pay for the developer tools it's $450.

If I buy a phone that's $450 (I know this is against the heart of opensource and "DIY" stuff), but I want it to be super tested, and work well. Yea, yea, the iPhone has a few problems. Apple's phone support staff alone for the iPhone is bigger than the R&D for this whole company. I don't want someone to say, "Recompile the kernel on your phone... don't know how? RTFM!" as you often get in some open-source circles. I don't mind paying a little bit to Apple to know that I can get all the support I want just by walking into an Apple store. I don't want to have to log onto a Subversion/CVS server and download code, recompile it, and cross my fingers

It's a cool idea, but it seems to miss some of the 'good things' that Apple's done, like the Multi-touch screen? Also, from everything i've read the iPhone is more durable than almost anyone would have expected. I dunno about this thing. You can open it with a guitar pick? huh

I know all of Slashdot was hoping for Open Source to show us how they "aren't ripping the world off" and aren't "locking you down" and how open source can do it cheaper and better. Well this doesn't look like cheaper. It doesn't look more tested. And it doesn't look better. Sorry.

Also, duh. Half the reason anyone wants an iPhone is the same reason they want a Porsche. Because people recognize it, and they can show off.

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[TibbonZero]

Two other things

I'm not trying to bash open source in the above post, just pointing out that I just want a phone that works. Yes, I know how to recompile stuff, etc... But my mother doesn't. She could probably figure out an iPhone. I don't know if she could figure out a developer's kit of this.

Secondly, for all of the nonstop bashing of the iPhone not being 'perfect', has anyone EVER tried to review another cell phone? Has a single one ever came out perfect? No. Not at all. Blackberries have problems. Treos have problems. Razr's have problems. I personally have a Treo.
The Treo 650 that I have sucks. The battery is crappy. The audio is too quiet. Palm and Sprint point fingers at each other for support problems so I never actually get any. The bluetooth doesn't work as advertised. There were some major QC issues. The screen scratches 10x easier than the iPhone screen would. It only supports 2gb SD cards. It crashes nonstop. Google Maps sucks on it. The internet access is slow and sucks on it (and 3G was present technology when it was released too). It doesn't support WiFi although Palm said they would support an expansion for it. The screen looks bad in the sunlight compared to the iPhone. Can't play movies on it with default software. You couldn't type on the screen if your life depended on it. No RSS reader. Switching between applications is sometimes slow. It crashes. It has poor reception. It drops calls frequently. 50% of my calls go straight to voicemail, even if the phone has 4 bars and is in my hand. In short. the phone sucks. The email support is horrid and ugly. Webpages don't display properly. The Java VM is stupidly buggy.

And yet, for some reason (I haven't heard that the newer Treos have fixed all of these problems at all), the Treo is a very popular phone. Oh, and it's not open source either. I'm not sure how popular compared to the Blackberry, but its popular, and there's a TON of 650's out there. No one seemed to complain about all of those in every major news media outlet when the Treo was released. David Pope didn't sing about it in a faux-musical. No one said anything. There's more Treos out there than iPhones, and yet... no coverage of problems.

The iPhone has some imperfection? Oh, it's the end of the world! I'm guessing that (from what i've seen in videos) that the Edge network is 10x better than the CDMA network that Sprint has.

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[kyrre]

How is this related to the Neo 1973?

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[babbling]

Free software is about freedom, not being cheaper.

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

To be honest, I don't think you've research this device very much...

It's a cool idea, but it seems to miss some of the 'good things' that Apple's done, like the Multi-touch screen? Also, from everything i've read the iPhone is more durable than almost anyone would have expected. I dunno about this thing. You can open it with a guitar pick? huh

Tne Neo1973 has multitouch, a better (Neo1973 480x640 vs. iPhone 320x480) screen and very importantly GPS.

If I buy a phone that's $450 (I know this is against the heart of opensource and "DIY" stuff), but I want it to be super tested, and work well. Yea, yea, the iPhone has a few problems. Apple's phone support staff alone for the iPhone is bigger than the R&D for this whole company. I don't want someone to say, "Recompile the kernel on your phone... don't know how? RTFM!" as you often get in some open-source circles. I don't mind paying a little bit to Apple to know that I can get all the support I want just by walking into an Apple store. I don't want to have to log onto a Subversion/CVS server and download code, recompile it, and cross my fingers

This is somewhat irrational... Tivo is an appliance based on Linux and there aren't any problems, this device is no different.

Also, the iPhone doesn't have anything cool like this:
"The creators of Neo 1973 had very many revolutionary ideas about smart-phones. Ideas like: location - based profiles that would use GPS to locate your position and change the profile when you enter the office for example.
The other cool idea is to set up something like a scheduled conference. A meeting between two phones would automatically start a conversation at certain date and time."
http://www.gadgets-reviews.com/index.php?page=post &id=303

The Open part of this phone is purely to get applications brewing for the device... You don't have to be a developer to love the possibilities this phone provides.

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[TibbonZero]

Not that it was actually developed to be this per se, but it's being tauted here as the "Open Source iPhone Killer". The reason that everyone's looking for something like that is because they think the iPhone is critically flawed, and this phone (because it's open source) is the savior to that.

I'm simply pointing out that we haven't seen a 'perfect' phone yet from any manufactuer.

Re:Not really cheaper than the iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how open source means software won't be mature enough that you'd need to do recompile the kernal or what not for Neo to work especially since all code would be for one type of hardware...

No 3G...

[Tom]

...let's see if the /. crowd rips it apart like the iPhone for not having that... :-)

Re:No 3G...

[martin_henry]

...whatever. As long as they recompile the kernel when they're done...

Re:No 3G...

[Hucko]

Dude, don't you get it? With linux, we will be able to reconfigure/create protocols to be compatible with 3g anyway... we will have a linphone. Show those turds who created the winmodems how to really make software devices. It's all just frequencies... :)

Re:No 3G...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all just frequencies...

Right, you get to work on that. Let me know when you're finished writing a working software 3G modem that uses the OpenMoko's hardware to do it.

I'll make sure to stop by occasionally with my flying car.

Re:No 3G...

[TheRaven64]

The GNU Radio folks have a complete HDTV implementation in software that just needs a simple demodulator/DAC. They could probably put together a software 3G implementation. There are two problems with this though:

• There is absolutely zero chance of the FCC certifying something where the license required end users to be able to modify the code.
• Dedicated silicon uses a lot less power than general purpose silicon, so you would end up with a much lower battery life than if you used an off the shelf chipset.

Oh, and it still wouldn't work with the current hardware.

Re:No 3G...

[Anonymous Coward]

The GNU Radio folks have a complete HDTV implementation in software that just needs a simple demodulator/DAC

And at least a quarter-wave antenna, assuming ATSC/DTV-B. And it's "simple" (sort-of), because it only has to receive.

The difference in wavelength has direct implications to the antenna assembly, although if you have an unlimited power budget, interesting things can be done with phased arrays and the like.

A 3G phone will probably want to support the current quad-band GSM layout, as well as the UMTS bands.

In short, you'll want 800/850/900/1700/1900/2100 MHz, and there are ongoing discussions about UHF (450MHz center frequency) for 3G as well.

The transceiver assemblies to do this are certainly possible (some are avaialble) but will be expensive, somewhat power-hungry, and fraught with patent disputes over means to reduce the additional space occupied by shorter-wavelength components, since the ~10cm strip occupied by the 800MHz antenna is a substantial chunk of internal phone volume, and even the tighter BiCMOS micropackages to drive them have several-mm dimensions to them.

You can't possibly provide better user experience

[melted]

Because there are very few people in the world who know anything about user experience and they either charge a lot or work for Apple or both. You can do more features and stuff, but the actual user experience is a lot harder to nail down than the feature checklist.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Clarification

[dewarrn1]

The summary isn't clear on this feature, but the parent post has it right. The mass-market phone will have both a 3D graphics accelerator and the 3D accelerometers mentioned above. From http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007- June/000014.html:

* SMedia 3362 Graphics Accelerator
* 2 3D Accelerometers

The outfit that makes the graphics chip needs to fix the product page; http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm should be correct but seems to describe the 3365 instead.

A toy that'll end up in a drawer in a year

[presearch]

Yeah, kind of fun, if I didn't have anything better to do than make my own phone apps.
It's somewhat attractive hardware, but it isn't inspiring great desire to get one.
Sort of a crude iPhone with it's primary design elements lifted from the Sony Mylo.

*shrug*
--

A killer app.

[www.sorehands.com]

What it needs is a killer application or two.

With the right software, the IPhone and others will be fighting to keep up with it. If it does this with a free software package -- I mean no monthly charge, it could kill. Ie. use the GPS for turn by turn integrating with mapquest or to identify the location (ie. the kid phone). But have a feature so if you lose the phone, find it via a web site.

You could have a big brother application. Or an advertising driven phone that tracks you to display ads for stores that you walk by.

Re:A killer app.

[cp.tar]

Not only 'find it via a web site', but as another poster already mentioned, an app which would send the GPS location to your computer, i.e. by e-mail, so that you can find it if it gets stolen.

Other nifty apps come to mind... IM-like away messages, for instance: record your away messages and program the phone to change you voicemail message to that - nobody I know uses voicemail; I have it turned off completely, but I'd turn it on if it meant I could change the voicemail message to something like "in class; don't leave a message, I'll call you later". Pack that with a scheduler (gCalendar connectivity would be especially nifty), so I don't have to think about it at all, and we're all set.

The Big Brother app would make for a nice kid phone, though an expensive one ATM: program in the location of the school and you can even have it notify you if your kid's skipping classes.

Oh, yes: add a SuDoku game, too ;) - I guess Tetris wouldn't quite work on a touchscreen.

The greatest benefit of this phone is that you can answer to almost any "oh, I wish it had $FEATURE" with "OK, so let's code it", as long as it's within the hardware's capabilities.

Re:A killer app.

[Fishead]

I want GPS based alarms.

I can't tell you how many times my wife has sent me an SMS message before I left work:

"Stop at the butcher shop on your way home and pick up..."

Followed by me remembering the butcher shop as I pull in the driveway.

Now, if she could send an event that alarms when I am 3 blocks from the butcher shop, we will hopefully have a little bit of marital bliss.

Of course, if she can also send an alarm if I get too close to a pub, or spend too much time in the electronic store...

Re:A killer app.

[Anonymous Coward]

Killer apps, you say? Have a look at these.

And since it's a free phone, anyone who wants to code up an application for it is free to do so, so I predict that most of the more feasible programmes on that page will be written sooner or later.

I, for one, will be happy to go around to all the cinemas/libraries/schools in my area and record their location (with the AGPS), for the app that might be written in the future to tell the phone to automatically switch to silent mode based on its GPS position.

Not an iPhone competitor, a Treo killer

[Naam Gozar Mohavi]

The folks that need to worry about openmoko are the folks at Palm, not Apple. Since the current version of the neo1973 is aimed at developers, one can assume it will be rough around the edges, and probably crash fairly often. Like a Treo. Shoot - if someone wrote an application for the neo1973 that made it spontaneously reboot every other day, they could honestly claim to have written a PalmOS emulator. Most Treo loyalists (like me) are only staying with Palm because they have third party applications that will never show up on an iPhone (for example, VNC), but there is no love lost between Treo users and Palm. Palm has been promising a new linux-basaed OS to replace PalmOS since Bill and Monica were sharing late night pizza, but the release date is always about 1 year away. Once there are some unstable, poorly written third party applications available for the openmoko platform, Treo users will defect in droves.

The advertisement for this phone goes like this:

[StarfishOne]

Hellooooo Mookooooo!

~.^

Re:code, hell. I want a non-proprietary BATTERY.

[phr1]

The batteries are proprietary in the sense that they're unique to the device, you can't buy them at 7-11, etc. A phone is supposed to be a self-contained device and so external adapters that connect AA battery packs to the phone through cables and crap like that are a total non-starter. If you prefer the term "commodity" to "non-proprietary" then fine, big whoop. What I care about is the difference between $2 batteries that fit all my devices (digicam, audio recorder, mp3 player, GPS, etc.) and $40 batteries that only fit one device. What we are dealing with now is the razor blade ploy of the 21st century.

No car cradle ?

[slincolne]

I love the idea, but I don't see an option for a car cradle.

Given the pain it was to get a proper fitting car cradle for my Treo 650 (I'm in Australia, and I had to buy a Seidio cradle from the US) It would be nice if they had a cradle with power, data, & audio that the phone would just slot into.

It would be even better if they had support for an external antenna.

I may buy one of these - the SDK for the Treo is a joke, and the Palm O/S is more reminiscent of a University project than a commercial product. A native Linux environment can't help but be better, and it's a far more appealing piece of equipment than an iPhone (damn hippies).

Re:No car cradle ?

[earlymon]

The only thing I've seen for this in the last month is a suction-cupped gooseneck cradle. I've seen quite a few of those in Taiwan, and the picture that I saw was same thing - for hands-free speakerphone/bluetooth driving - no power, no data, no sound - but comforming to the oval shape, with - AFAIR - the right side of the phone cradle open.

Everything's /.'d right now, so, sorry, I can't find the link for it.

But they seem to have been working on/thinking of something. One thing's certain - if it's slightly profitable to do so, Taiwan or China will build accessories for it.

Re:No car cradle ?

[earlymon]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/03/openmoko-detail s-pricing-availability-for-neo1973/

hth

Re:No car cradle ?

[slincolne]

The Seidio design (This) is more practical.

The Treo simply plugs into the cradle and mates with the connector in the base. You don't need to connect any wires to the Treo, you just insert it.

The picture on engadget shows a pretty basic design - apart from a more form specific holder it's not much better than one of the generic phone/gps/whatever cradles. The Seidio designs add value by breaking out the serial port, audio lines, and power.

Shipping costs

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone going through the steps of ordering may have noticed something disturbing. It looks like they are charging over $100 for shipping. I have shipped back and forth to the US before, and this is quite expensive in comparison.

Are these charges so high because of direct shipping from China? Either way, the phone just got a little too expensive.

Re:Shipping costs

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost is due to the extra weight of the illegal immigrants in the same crate.

Re:And then Boom!

[HawaiianMayan]

With the exception that it's less functional. No wifi, USB 1.1, no multi-touch.

Motorola MING A1200

[ehiris]

I wonder how this compares to the Motorla MING which claims to be Linux-based also.

Re:Motorola MING A1200

[Anonymous Coward]

The MING is just one of a number of Motorola phones running Linux. The nicest one is the E6. However, their use of Linux is irrelevant. They are all locked down so hard they could be running anything.

Re:Motorola MING A1200

[Anonymous Coward]

Since MotoMing runs Linux, it has a lot of applications developed by Linux geeks, same reason why people are jumping at this news.
Visit http://www.motorolafans.com/forums/viewforum.php?f =21&sid=9d789f61dfb524eaefd4e092239475d3

While OpenMoko seems to be early preview, Ming has been available for a while. It is claimed at the motorola fans website that it already supports EDGE, just needs to be enabled via hacks (known as SEEM Edits)

It is definitely worth comparing. E6 may be next generation but doesn't have a flip cover (like apple iPhone) so chances of scratches are more.

Here's an easy prediction:

[StarKruzr]

This phone will die a horrible death for lack of carrier support.

Let's see. This phone can do absolutely ANYTHING you can conceive of in software. Tools for development are open-source and free. This enables VOIP, text messaging replacements, every piece of F/OSS software you could possibly want, all of which are connected both to WiFi and the carrier's precious, precious network.

It is, in short, a consumer's dream.

WHY would carriers want this thing on their networks again?

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[TheSciBoy]

WHY would carriers want this thing on their networks again?

Because WiFi only covers a nanopercent of the area that GSM/3G covers. This means that any service you provide via WiFi, you'll also want to be able to use over EDGE/HDSPA/GPRS/whatever which uses the network and generates revenue. You'll also be using it to make calls.

In general, a carrier will just want you to have something connected to their network that you want to use and which you'll want to use a lot. I, for one, mostly just use my phone for SMS and actual phone conversations, but if I could get the phone to use WiFi for e-mail/messaging (ICQ+MSN) then I would be more likely to accept a few bytes flying over GPRS or something to get those messages when WiFi is not available. A lot more willing than I would be knowing that ALL of that data goes over an expensive network.

The only thing I'm worried about is the potential for hackers to hack the network stacks and trying to get free phone calls/data transfers with this device. If that happens it will be banned faster than you can say iPhone.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[Eunuchswear]

Could you tell me why a carrier needs to "support" a phone?

You buy a phone.

You get a SIM from a carrier.

You put the SIM in the phone.

It works.

What more needs to be done?

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[dunkelfalke]

exactly. anyway, most windows pda phones can do pretty much the same and the carrier even sell those.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[ajs318]

WHY would carriers want this thing on their networks again?

Because the law says they have to.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[Anonymous Coward]

You buy a phone.

You get a SIM from a carrier.

You put the SIM in the phone.

It works.

Well you asked, so:

#1: CDMA networks where there is no SIM card

You buy a phone

???

It works.

#2: H3G a.k.a. "Three" run 3G-only networks in the UK, Italy, etc. If you can't get 3G coverage, you roam on someone else's 2G network at H3G's expense. Needless to say, they don't want this, so they have to approve your phone (i.e. make sure it's a 3G phone) before they let you on the network.

You buy a phone.

You get a SIM from a carrier.

You put the SIM in the phone.

???

It works.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[TheRaven64]

you'll also want to be able to use over EDGE/HDSPA/GPRS/whatever which uses the network and generates revenue Shame the phone only supports GPRS, which is too painfully slow to use for anything (latency typically hits 2s RTT, which is just painful). With decent UMTS support I might be interested, but 'running Linux' is not a good reason to get a phone with fewer features than the one that came free with my (cheapest possible) contract 18 months ago. It has a bit more RAM (which it needs, since Linux is horribly bloated by embedded OS standards) and more on-board flash (ditto). The screen is nicer, but it has no camera (WTF?). AGPS might be nice, but I'm not convinced.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[mellon]

You almost certainly don't want this phone. It's not a consumer phone - it's for developers to get started. If we (developers) wind up creating something amazing, then FIC is expecting to make more hardware. Right now GSM is the choice because it's ubiquitous - the only place you can't get it is Japan and Korea, where they already have such wicked cool phones that the Linux bit wouldn't be worth anything anyway.

GPRS is the choice because it's generally not restricted. Supposedly it's relatively easy to connect to GPRS without the provider's help, but a lot harder to connect to EDGE. Dunno how true that is, but that was the rationale for using GPRS. It would be nice if the consumer model had support for EDGE.

But the main point is that what this phone is doing is something different. Normal phones you get from your cell provider are disposable, and they have to be, because they generally suck. The hardware is great, don't get me wrong, but the software usually bites, and you can't fix it. My Samsung t809 won't sync with my Prius because of some stupid handshaking glitch. There's never going to be a firmware update for that. If the OpenMoko doesn't sync with my Prius, what to do? Fix it. I don't have to try to get Samsung to fix it. I don't have to listen to Samsung and Toyota blame each other for the problem. I just fix it. You, if you don't want to hack the phone yourself, wait for me to fix it. It's a really good deal from that perspective.

Likewise, my t809, which is a really sweet piece of software, has an alarm tone that genuinely pisses me off. It's an earworm. If I use the alarm on the t809, I'm hearing it in my head the rest of the day. I'd like to use a different alarm tone. But I can't. Because it's a closed-source phone, and they didn't think to let me install a different alarm tone. They weren't trying to screw me - they just didn't think of it. On the Neo, I can just hack the software if it's not configurable.

My t809 doesn't support stereo bluetooth. The fix? Buy a new phone. Two years later, when my old contract expires. Lame. On the Neo? A simple matter of programming. It probably already works - I haven't tried it because I don't have the phone yet. But if it doesn't work, I have the source code, I can fix it.

My Macbook won't work with the modem in my t809. So I have EDGE support, but I can't use it. On the Neo, as long as I can get the Neo to talk to the network, I can just have it do IP over the bluetooth, with NAT, so that my Mac has access to the Net at the same time that my Neo has access to the net. Doesn't work? Use the source, Luke.

So yeah, the Neo is really under-featured, if you're into cell phone cameras. But if you're into flexibility, and not being locked in to a broken phone for two years at a time, I think it's got possibilities.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[mellon]

Er, the t809 is a really sweet piece of hardware, not software. Sigh. It is, too. It's very rugged - doesn't break into bits when you drop it like some other phones I've had. I wish it had better software.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[Dougie]

The only thing I'm worried about is the potential for hackers to hack the network stacks and trying to get free phone calls/data transfers with this device. If that happens it will be banned faster than you can say iPhone.

Just to note, the GSM module is closed source (but with a very clear open API).

I do not believe "hackers" are an issue here.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[z0M6]

A carrier needs to support a phone so they can get "ur moniez". And you don't just buy a phone, you get an upgraded one! With all sorts of fancy features the carrier put on it.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[tiffany98121]

What more needs to be done? Connect it to the internet. And if you have an aversion to phones that can connect to the internet, you wouldn't be looking at this phone anyways.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[LarsG]

Because the law says they have to.

Is that really the case in the US? I must admit I'm not an expert on FCC regs, but the impression I got (US carrier regs has some times popped up in the current net neutrality debate) is that there's no Carterphone equivalent that requires US cell carriers to allow any compatible handset on their networks. The reason that you can use any GSM phone on AT&T/T-mobile networks is afaict because the GSM standard was designed that way and not because of FCC regs.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[FireFury03]

Shame the phone only supports GPRS, which is too painfully slow to use for anything (latency typically hits 2s RTT, which is just painful).

Indeed. I fully intend to get an OpenMoko device, but I'm likely to wait until a 3G version is available. A slightly bigger screen and a hard keypad would be nice too.

'running Linux' is not a good reason to get a phone

I think it's a very good reason:
1. All the development tools are Free and will work on my workstations (all of which run Linux)
2. I can run OpenMoko in qemu for development purposes
3. I can run many of my normal GUI applications on the phone since it uses Xorg
4. I can easilly hack up shell scripts, python scripts, run cron jobs, etc
5. Hopefully the Free software mindset will allow better Free software - I'm sick of everyone wanting to charge me 30-50ukp for every crappy little utility for my Symbian phone

that came free with my (cheapest possible) contract 18 months ago

I spend around 2ukp a month on my cellphone - I have no intention of going onto another contract with a monthly charge just to get a new phone (especially since all the phones provided by the operators at the moment are shit)

but it has no camera (WTF?).

Why on earth do I want a camera on my phone? Most of them take crappy blurry photos through their crappy tiny plastic lenses. I'll stick to using my old IXUS400 for quick snaps thanks.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[donniejones18]

You don't want this phone YET, this release is for developers, but in October the mass-market release should have much better software and will include hardware upgrades such as faster processor and wifi! :) I can't wait!!

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[jerryasher]

I sure hope they make a consumer model without a camera.

Cameras are not appreciated at many large companies, and in hospitals.

Re:Here's an easy prediction:

[StarKruzr]

I'm pretty sure that a case that would have established "Carterphone for mobiles" was struck down in the United States.

Re:code, hell. I want a non-proprietary BATTERY.

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFM: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery
Instructions on alternatives to the official battery, mentioning also that you _can_ hack it to use NiMH batteries. Happy now?

Geek does not imply Linux fanboy ...

[AHumbleOpinion]

I doubt phones based on this software will make much of an impact outside of geek circles.

Being a geek does not mean you will buy something merely because it is Linux based or FOSS based, that is a bit more like fan boy'ism. You need to realize that for most geeks Linux is not a crusade, many just need a good general purpose *nix environment and don't really give a rats ass about the politics and religion that gets so much attention. For this phone to make an impact in geek circles it has to deliver as a phone, like Linux delivered as a general purpose *nix. If its greatest feature is "its Linux based" then it will be a niche product even among geeks.

Re:Geek does not imply Linux fanboy ...

[Anonymous Coward]

For this phone to make an impact in geek circles it has to deliver as a phone, like Linux delivered as a general purpose *nix. If its greatest feature is "its Linux based" then it will be a niche product even among geeks.

It's *because* it's Linux-based that it *will* deliver as a phone, and much more.

People have been trying to separate "Linux success" from "GPL / free software" for as long as it's been around, but face it: if Linux was proprietary, it wouldn't be big today. We've had affordable closed-source x86 Unix kernels, and nobody uses them.

Don't look now, but Linux is delivering much more than "a general purpose *nix". I've got features on my home Linux box that I've never seen on any proprietary Unix. Unix before GNU wasn't all that great. If my choices were Windows, Mac OS, and a cheap proprietary CDE, I'd go with a Mac -- I want a good Unix, not just any ol' thing.

You need to realize that for most geeks Linux is not a crusade, many just need a good general purpose *nix environment and don't really give a rats ass about the politics and religion that gets so much attention.

I'm like that with phones, and I'll get this phone, because it's running Linux, which means I'll get a good general purpose phone.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Yeah, look at those release dates!

[Animaether]

*scrolls down*

Oh.. June 2006?

http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/02/hands-on-with-t he-htc-universal/

Oh.. September 2005?

And yes.. yes, they are PocketPC phones, rather than SmartPhones.. then again, what is this OpenMoko 1973 thing?

2.8" VGA TFT color display
Touchscreen, usable with stylus or fingers
266HZ Samsung System on a Chip (SOC)
Integrated AGPS

Yep - sounds like any regular ol' $40 phone to me!

Re:Yeah, look at those release dates!

[nanosquid]

Look, I have held and tried; the Neo is actually small and light enough to keep in your pocket, these other devices simply aren't. They are also a lot more expensive, if you can get them at all.

For me, the Neo hits a sweet spot in terms of size, price, and screen quality that no prior phone has been able to achieve.

Re:And then Boom!

[dysfunct]

Let's not forget the 1973 in the product name, which makes it sound antiquated to a mass market that largely appears to be drawn to "futuristic" numbers (2000 in the 90s, 3000 now). Yes, I know, it means nothing to the average slashdot audience but there seems to be a reason why psychology plays an important part in creation and advertisement of products.

Stylus?

[xdotx]

Wasn't this originally supposed to be all touch screen... as in with fingers, no stylus and what-not? They're providing a stylus which seems to imply they've given up on the idea (I know they were having a lot of trouble with it previously). I'd rather the stylus-free approach than an overpowered stylus; although, I can't say I'd complain much if I got the latter.

Re:Stylus?

[HUADPE]

It's probably for a few reasons, and some of which I would agree with. One, multitouch is patented by Apple, so emulating it exactly would be illegal, and they have to find a way to do it that isn't in violation of Apple's patent. Two, (while IANASD and could be wrong) X11 and all the other components of standard linux interfaces are designed with a keyboard (not here) or single point (mouse) interface. I'd much rather run rock-solid X with a stylus than crashy Moko-X with fingers. And from reading their website, it's semi-finger, semi-stylus, depending on the app. Also, of course, you could just change it to be fingers for everything (and have to type everything 10 times).

Another big implication - more branding

[phonewebcam]

With this you could start seeing more handsets from almost-players. Think an IBM branded handset, CNN etc. Hell, even McDonalds could do one now the barrier to entry has been lowered so much!

All I want to know is:

[caluml]

All I want to know is: can I get a bash prompt on it, can I ping stuff over GPRS/3G, and is there a compiler that's fairly easy to use.

Re:All I want to know is:

[rincebrain]

Yes to all (2.5G for now - I have no idea what the cycle for getting 3G looks like).

Re:All I want to know is:

[gilesjuk]

It has a terminal, plus you can use a USB link and SSH into it from your PC.

It uses open embedded, so you use bitbake to compile, this uses GCC to cross compile.

Infrared ?

[ipollo]

If this baby had IR capabilities, it would be the most useful tool an IT\AV techi could hope for. in summary: needs more tang.

Re:Infrared ?

[rincebrain]

It's on the wish list, so whenever they start actively looking into the post-GTA02 revs of it, this will probably show up if enough people want it.

no A2DP

[RMH101]

I'm assuming the lack of the stereo bluetooth protocol A2DP is what the OP was referring to. This is *really* irritating. My Macbook doesn't have it either, and I can only presume that Apple deliberately don't add this feature because they think it'll reduce sales of Apple TV or something by allowing you to stream audio to your hifi or similar.

Seriously, A2DP on phones is great. Add a stereo bluetooth car kit to your motor and you can stream your tunes into your car stereo in fairly high quality...

Re:no A2DP

[47Ronin]

A2DP will be supported in Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard which will debut in October.

Neo 1973

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an interesting device that should sell well to the hobbyist niche market. Hopefully that volume is sustainable for them because I imagine the future would bring better hardware and more applets.

But are they planning to license Matrix content? At first, I thought there was just one geek-friendly reference, but it looks like several parts of the marketing messages are in no uncertain way directly borrowing from the cachet of The Matrix. With overt dependence on Matrixy marketing messages, they could find themselves sued into oblivion. What's the plan here?

Imagine...

[Antarius]

A beowulf cluster of these!


Okay, maybe not a cluster - but what about distributed wi-fi? Then it'll be a real killer app - a telco killer!

Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[tepples]

Could you tell me why a carrier needs to "support" a phone?

You buy a phone. In the United States, phones and SIMs aren't generally sold separately, and phones are sold locked to a network.

You put the SIM in the phone. Phones for use on Sprint and Verizon networks have no SIM slot because they're CDMA. Only those phones sold by AT&T and T-Mobile have SIM slots, and they're still network-locked out of the box.

What more needs to be done? More conspicuous advertising of locking and unlocking policies, for one thing.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[LuSiDe]

Locked? So you unlock them. In the Netherlands, after 1 year, you have the right to unlock the SIMlock.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[lowieken]

There is no simlocking in Belgium. Bundle sales of phones and phone contracts are illegal here.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Eunuchswear]

In the United States, phones and SIMs aren't generally sold separately, and phones are sold locked to a network

Don't buy your phone from a carrier, buy your phone from a phone manufacturer:

http://www.nokiausa.com/A4411004

http://www.store.motorola.com/mot/en/US/adirect/mo torola

Phones for use on Sprint and Verizon networks have no SIM slot because they're CDMA.

So don't use those networks then.

What more needs to be done?

More conspicuous advertising of locking and unlocking policies, for one thing.

Rather than buying locked phones and whining about how difficult it is to unlock them why not just buy an unlocked phone?

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[GNious]

In all fairness, between Mobistar and Belgacom, I'm amazed that people are even making phonecalls in Belgium.

Worst. SPs. Ever.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Mr. Slippery]

So don't use those [Sprint or Verizon] networks then.

Sadly, Verizon has the best network in terms of coverage, and Sprint's is also pretty good. To my knowledge the only U.S. network that allows for unlocked phones is T-Mobile, and their coverage sucks.

You have a trade-off here of good plans that you can only use in limited areas, or crappy plans that work most places.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Alioth]

I bought my last phone in the United States. The phone store wasn't even phased when I asked for a phone without service, and bought a separate SIM card later. Phones are only sold locked to the network in the US if you go to a network provider's store and sign a contract. If you go to a generic phone store, most of the phones can just be bought, and have any GSM carrier's SIM card inserted (from pay as you go to contract).

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Netherlands, you have rights...

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[illumin8]

To my knowledge the only U.S. network that allows for unlocked phones is T-Mobile, and their coverage sucks.

T-Mobile is pretty much the "budget" GSM carrier here in the US, although their service is pretty good for the price, and if you get coverage where you're at, why not use them. AT&T/Cingular is higher priced, but they have a great GSM network with good coverage all over the US. If you want to use an unlocked GSM phone here in the US, you can, you just can't choose Sprint or Verizon. But who would want to be locked into their crappy CDMA networks anyway? It's just another form of vendor lockin. With a GSM phone that is unlocked, I can freely switch to any other GSM carrier. With CDMA, even if you wanted to switch from Verizon to Sprint, you can't.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Anonymous Coward]

I am currently using an unlocked phone on the Cingular/AT&T network.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[jweller]

Rather than buying locked phones and whining about how difficult it is to unlock them why not just buy an unlocked phone?

or just buy the phone/sim bundle that includes the phone for free. Then just put the sim in the phone of your choice, and sell the give away phone on ebay for whatever you can get for it.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[smithmc]

  Phones for use on Sprint and Verizon networks have no SIM slot because they're CDMA.

So don't use those networks then.

That's easy to say, but, at least in my personal experience, Verizon has the best network coverage and service in most parts of the US. (Meanwhile, in response to the GP post, CDMA does support a SIM-like card, but Verizon does not implement it AFAIK.)

Rather than buying locked phones and whining about how difficult it is to unlock them why not just buy an unlocked phone?

Perhaps because unlocked phones can cost 2-4 times as much as the same phone with a contract?

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Mr. Slippery]

and if you get coverage where you're at, why not use them.

Because I'm not always where I'm at now - if I was always at home I'd just have a land line, right? The whole point of a mobile phone is to be mobile.

AT&T/Cingular is higher priced, but they have a great GSM network with good coverage all over the US.

Maybe it's changed post-merger, but last I checked Cingular's coverage sucked. And the slowness of their data network is one of the most frequent complaints about the iPhone. AT&T/Cingular is also rated low for call quality.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[ncc74656]

If you want to use an unlocked GSM phone here in the US, you can, you just can't choose Sprint or Verizon. But who would want to be locked into their crappy CDMA networks anyway?

That CDMA network you knock tends to be more widely available, especially when you head out into BFE. Also, back when I bought my Treo, nobody else was offering voice and unlimited data (at approximately ISDN speed) for anywhere near the $45 that I'm paying Sprint.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[tepples]

In the United States, phones and SIMs aren't generally sold separately, and phones are sold locked to a network Don't buy your phone from a carrier, buy your phone from a phone manufacturer

The Nokia link you gave me states that Nokia has two brick and mortar stores, and neither is within an hour's drive of my home. Even if I feel adventurous enough to buy a phone that I've never tried, why are so many models listed in Nokia - Phones - Find products marked as "Phone only: --"? (The Motorola page didn't appear to have this problem.)

Besides, most Americans are not made aware that they have that option. And do the prepaid carriers in the United States sell SIMs separately, or do I have to buy a phone to get a SIM?

Phones for use on Sprint and Verizon networks have no SIM slot because they're CDMA. So don't use those networks then. Then what network should I use in parts of the United States with poor GSM coverage, especially in Virginia or west of the Mississippi River? AT&T's mobile broadband coverage is even worse, making it harder for Fort Wayne residents to listen to Internet broadcasts of independent music in the car or bus.

What more needs to be done? More conspicuous advertising of locking and unlocking policies, for one thing. Rather than buying locked phones and whining about how difficult it is to unlock them why not just buy an unlocked phone? Because the phone makers don't advertise unlocked phones to U.S. customers, and the network operators don't advertise SIM-only plans to U.S. customers, or they don't offer a discount for not having to subsidize a phone. So I guess what we need is more conspicuous advertising of unlocked phones and SIM-only plans.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[xrobertcmx]

That is one take on matters. I had Cingular and left them at the end of my contract because I couldn't make calls between 6 and 8pm due to an overcrowded network. We also had a lot of dropped calls. I bought a second phone at full price because they claimed it was the phone, then they just told me that the market was oversold. We switched to T-Mobile, have great coverage, real support, and we don't drop calls. The price is roughly the same, but I think we are finally getting what we paid for. I've also used an old unlocked Nokia (From the former AT&T wireless, pre Cingular buy out) on both networks. Some later sims are not supported in it, but then it is a back up phone.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Anonymous Coward]

Only after 1 year though... apparently.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Exocrist]

I' have Cingular / ATT, and I've used an unlocked phone with my SIM, and also gotten them to give me an unlock code for my phone.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Eunuchswear]

Perhaps because unlocked phones can cost 2-4 times as much as the same phone with a contract?

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Re:Phones and SIMs are always bundled here

[Anonymous Coward]

You live in berberian lands...

Performing publicly

[tepples]

Songs copied from CD do not come with the license to perform the song publicly as a ringtone, which U.S. copyright law allows the music publisher to sell separately.

Re:Performing publicly

[leenks]

AFAIK songs on CD do not come with the license required to perform the song publicly through a loud car stereo, or on an overly loud iPod, but people still do it.

Re:And then Boom!

[kklein]

--Which makes it pretty much like any other open source product.

im not sure what to make of it..

[pjr.cc]

on one hand i really want it..

on the other hand i really dont want it. it an open phone, except for the "phone" bits - WTF (yes, i know its an interface)?

It would have been nice to see a device of its size, with the 3d components and no phone at all - i think i need to read the wiki (when its less /.'d) a bit more cause i can see it looks cool, but its really hard to tell..

Re:im not sure what to make of it..

[rincebrain]

The "phone" bits give you as much control as they legally can - if you could screw with the phone protocol/frequency usage, it wouldn't be licensed for use in the US (I don't know about other countries and their regulatory bodies).

You do get as much control as is feasible of the GSM unit via serial, though. :)

They're also considering making a purely Free unit.

Re:im not sure what to make of it..

[babbling]

It would have been nice to see a device of its size, with the 3d components and no phone at all

I'm sure someone will be willing to write you a patch (for a price) to turn off the phone functionality if it bothers you that much, but I don't understand where you're coming from.

hmmm..

[pjr.cc]

The way i like (note, LIKE) to read it.. and how i think it might differ from other OSS offerings -

- all the interfaces to the proprietary bits are open. i.e. the gps is serial, hopefully the phone bit is too
- its a framework, so fic built theirs and other people are happy to go build more phones with the same framework

And how it differs from other things in this vein:
- the wrt54g has a binary-only driver, so your stuck with a pre-compiled kernel that makes you jump thru hoops compiling other kernel modules for it
- the palm linux thing looks very much like you wont be able to get to the kernel at all (or in a very limited way) and you'll be stuck with every kernel they deem appropriate.

which sounds pretty kewl actually, like they didn't put wifi in because of no low-power OSS wifi drivers - it could be leading down a path alot of people might actually follow (and by people, i dont really mean consumers).

Re:And then Boom!

[ajs318]

1. Get any Sony Ericsson Walkman phone (incl. k750i which predates Walkman branding but is a Walkman phone in all but name).
2. Use sound recorder to record ringtone acoustically via phone's mic.
3. Bluetooth sound recording across to iPhone.
4. ???
5. Profit!

GSM/GPRS module

[tzanger]

I'm curious as to how similar the GSM module is to a CDMA counterpart; Look specifically at smartphones like the treos; they come in both GSM and CDMA models, and the mainboards on them are pretty much identical. I'm willing to bet that if you took the GSM module out of this thing and slapped in a CDMA module from another phone (that uses the modular technology) that you'd be able to use CDMA networks.

Now the CDMA guys have agreements where they won't activate an ESN from another carrier, but if you've got an old or broken CDMA smartphone from someone like Telus, say, you could in theory have this phone on a CDMA network without too much trouble. There'll be some driver work as the commands aren't identical, but they're pretty damned close.

Re:GSM/GPRS module

[theManInTheYellowHat]

This would be very interesting to me as I live in an area where CDMA is the only option. Actually the option is only one telco as well.

How much hardware is different in CDMA vs GSM and since there is linux under there could the drivers be tweaked to change how the hardware communicates?

Or why can't it have both the networking devices in it? or be a module that you pop in like a memory chip?

A magical app

[TuringTest]

The Big Brother app would make for a nice kid phone, though an expensive one ATM: program in the location of the school and you can even have it notify you if your kid's skipping classes.

I have a idea for this killer app from the Harry Potter's books... Remember the clock in the kitchen, that tells not the current hour but current the situation of everyone in the family? Friendly interface, and absolutely doable with nowadays technology.

Say you saw it first on Slashdot.

Re:A magical app

[cp.tar]

And you know the best part?

Every Harry Potter fan will want it. And the phone.

You could put everyone's gCalendar schedule there, as well as download GPS info... nice...

this looks very good

[DaMattster]

This phone looks kind of sexy. Mostly, I like that it is open source. I wonder if you could get it to work with AT&T or T-Mobile or any GSM carrier . . . .

Re:this looks very good

[rincebrain]

That's precisely the point.

Any GSM carrier (mostly) doesn't care what phone you run as long as you pay and it doesn't do something that will get them in legal trouble.

Re:this looks very good

[DaMattster]

Well, there are standards and there are standards. I'd like to know what kind of "restrictions" the GSM carrier will apply. They may tweak the technology such to make it impossible to use the phone.

External Stylus?

[brunes69]

I am concerned about the lack of design foresight to design this thing *without* a built-in collapseable stylus.

Re:External Stylus?

[nowhere.elysium]

Actually, that's deliberate. The stylus they give you is a pen, stylus and laser-pointer, according to the website. Sorry - I broke the RTFA rule. Just had to check it out and salivate a bit...

As a consumer

[gelfling]

I want a phone that my carrier will accept. I don't know how the rest of the world views it but just because a company makes a phone doesn't actually mean my carrier is forced to integrate it into their network. Oh you can wave all the public policy documents from the FCC in their face you want. Doesn't mean shit. My carrier, Sprint has a hard enough time supporting the phones they sell. The conversation about bringing them an unlocked phone to activate it would something like:

Me: "I have this phone I want to add to my plan"
Sprint: "Did the store activate it?"
Me: "No it's my phone I didn't get it from a Sprint store"
Sprint: "Sir we don't do that"
Me: "blah blah blah blah - - ~~~ you're supposed to blah blah"
Sprint: "Sir let me check can you hold?"
Me: "Yeah sure"
-15 minutes later
Sprint: "Sir? We can do that, the activation fee is $375"
Me: "Huh?"
Sprint: "Sir yes if it's not a phone we sell then that's the activation fee"
Me: "Never mind, thanks anyway"
Sprint: "Thank you for calling Sprint"

Re:As a consumer

[frogstar_robot]

This is precisely why devices like the iPhone completely fail to excite me: the screwed up technical market for cell phones in the US. If I don't like my carrier then I'm faced with the loss of my mp3 player, personal organizer, GPS, and whatever other functions my all-in-one WonderWidget does. I only use my phone for making and receiving calls. When I can swap phones and carriers as easily as I can with landlines then I'll be interested in phones that do more than just handle calls.

Re:As a consumer

[nowhere.elysium]

Do sprint use GSM? If so, then there's no need for activation: GSM phones just attach themselves to the network, using the information found on the SIM card. If, of course, you're using CDMA (is it CDMA? I can never remember that acronym), then you may not be able to use it. It's a GSM-only handset, at the moment. That may change with later revisions, dependent on software/firmware requirements.

Re:As a consumer

[retro128]

Sprint is a bit different since they're using CDMA, as does Verizon. Neither has SIM cards, so when you change phones, you have to call them up and activate every time.

On the other hand, GSM networks are keyed to SIM cards. When you activate a phone, you are giving them the SIM number and they are activating that. If they ask you for your phone model and ESN, it's just for their records in case your phone gets ripped off so they can put it on a "stolen" list. Changing your phone is as simple as popping out the SIM and putting it into the new phone. You don't have to call the carrier. AT&T and T-Mobile are the two major GSM networks. The Neo1973 is strictly a GSM phone, so the activation scenario you described wouldn't happen.

I personally favor GSM because when I go to Europe, I can buy a SIM card for 10 euros, pop it in my phone, have instantly have a local number. Verizon makes you rent a "world phone" for some ridiculous amount of money. I don't know what Sprint does for international travelers, but it's probably similar.

IMHO, the only thing CDMA has going for it is the speed of the data network.

Re:As a consumer

[Captain_Chaos]

Me: "I have this phone I want to add to my plan"
Sprint: "Did the store activate it?"
<snip>

Was this a GSM phone? With GSM there is no "activating" phones, you just stick your SIM card in the phone and you're done. The phone could be SIM-locked so that it doesn't work with your carrier (which is the case with the iPhone, which only works with AT&T), but not the other way around (unless they're whitelisting IMEI numbers, which seems very unlikely and which I have never heard of).

Re:As a consumer

[Anonymous Coward]

here's the same conversation in many other countries:

me: Hi I'd like to buy this SIM card
convenience store clerk: OK
me: thanks

Re:As a consumer

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how the rest of the world views it IMHO the rest of the world does not have these vendor lock-in problems :)
This seems to be a free market problem. Economies with basic consumer protection laws would force the carrier to accept third party devices.

Re:As a consumer

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in the US, and I have no clue about cell phones. I want to buy a really cheap phone to tide me over until the consumer version of the Neo is available. What service should I get, such that I'll be able to keep using it with the Neo?

This ought to be good.

[NDPTAL85]

Alright I'm pulling up a chair here. Can you please explain to us all why Apple's iPhone marketing campaign is UNETHICAL? Did Steve Jobs kill some baby seals to get the commercials made? Were kittens thrown against the wall on every bad take? I'm seriously curious, how could a marketing campaign that includes a disembodied hand, voice and product be unethical?

Re:This ought to be good.

[SolitaryMan]

I know nothing about Apple's iPhone TV marketing campaign, and thank god: internet hype made me sick enough, so now I'm sure I will never come close to it, but the line "your phone defines who you are" which GGP was referring to, is pretty unethical thing to say to people, whether it is plain or implied.

Re:This ought to be good.

[NDPTAL85]

None of Apple's commercials about the iPhone has ever said that. The commercials just demonstrate what the device can do. Thats it. So how is that unethical?

And even if it DID say that how would it be unethical? Are people without free will? Are you not insulting people by assuming they can't resist such sales pitches?

Re:This ought to be good.

[Fred_A]

I'm seriously curious, how could a marketing campaign that includes a disembodied hand, voice and product be unethical?

Isn't exploiting Thing for advertising unethical ?

Re:This ought to be good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, those are much more horrible than the, "Be original, drink Sprite." commercials.

Re:This ought to be good.

[Ambidisastrous]

Dunno, I thought the panting hordes of turgid bloggers were more responsible for this superhype than Apple was. As far as I can tell, all Apple did was let Steve Jobs deliver a killer keynote address in January, feed table scraps to journalists and bloggers for six months, and then release phone on time alongside some comparatively subdued-looking TV commercials with plinky music. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think Apple fans and spectators just took this basic idea and ran a marathon.

For an appropriate image, picture Steve Jobs rubbing honey all over himself, then running through a field while thousands of people throw wads of loose cash at him and watch it stick. That's called marketing.

Re:This ought to be good.

[Workaphobia]

The whole "your phone defines who you are" (or at least who you want to be) mentality is a damn good reason for me to get the Neo. That is, as transparent a line as it is, it makes a good point.

Re:This ought to be good.

[CheShACat]

Are you not insulting people by assuming they can't resist such sales pitches?
Unfortunately I don't think (s)he is - the psychology of targeting subliminal desires for the sake of encouraging rabid consumerism is one of the most highly funded sciences. It has been studied for decades by dedicated scientists and IMHO the average consumer has a fight on their hands to overcome this kind of targeting, always supposing they are both conscious of it and willing to fight it in the first place. It may be a given to you or I but there are a LOT of stupid and/or non-politcally motivated people in the world.

Re:This ought to be good.

[NDPTAL85]

Isn't that line of reasoning awfully convienent for elitists who love to believe that they are more intelligent and more informed than the unwashed masses and thus their purchasing decisions are somehow "smarter" than everyone else's? I personally have owned 5 smartphones in my life. The iPhone kicks them all in the ass. That ain't marketing.

Re:This ought to be good.

[CheShACat]

Firstly, I said nothing about the relative merits of the iPhone.

I do know, however, that as someone who consistently takes an active and carefully considered role in making sure I get caught up by advertising as little as possible, I find it a very difficult job. Despite having aligned myself thusly long ago, and having read quite a bit about the psychology of marketing I still find myself occasionally buying things out of irrational impulses that only later I am able to directly attribute to marketing tactics having dug their filthy claws in. I dread to think how often I would be buying this crap if I weren't putting so much effort into not buying it.

Blue Tooth Modem

[coreyfro]

Anyone know if this will behave like a Bluetooth modem? Or a USB modem, I don't care, just so long as I can use it to surf on a real computer, too.

Neo/OM is community phone, not just Linux-based

[Anonymous Coward]

Being just "Linux-based" is the least of it.

FIC and their OpenMoko sub-company are 100% committed to the Neo being a community-developed phone, not merely running Linux inside. The cohesion they've developed with FOSS developers is quite amazing, not an "us and them" approach at all. In fact, they've hired a whole bunch of leading open developers to speed up development, and yet are encouraging them to develop in a fully open and portable manner, not tied to Neo alone.

I've not seen anything that visionary done by any US nor European manufacturer so far. Well done FIC.

The Neo1973/OpenMoko will be a reflection of what the community can achieve (both good and bad), which is quite different to Motorola's approach, which merely uses Linux inside without involving the FOSS community beyond that.

Designer deserves a swift kick

[hcdejong]

Argh! It looks like it should cost $30 instead of $300. And what's with the stupid rounded corners? They're giving up valuable internal volume and screen real estate to make the phone look smaller while still having the exact same height and width of a brick-shaped phone.

Re:Designer deserves a swift kick

[earlymon]

Sometimes, I have to carry a phone in my pocket as opposed to some kind of holster. I'm kinda looking forward to trying something with non-snagging edges.

I also like the differentiation from a peer-marketing POV. Already, anyone carrying an iPhone is noticed in our group, and perhaps unbelievably to some, not for the OoooooohAaaaah of it, but for the, "How does it work? I've been hearing about it..." factors. I don't think it will take too long to gauge the response, once they're more widely available, to a red oval phone.

Plus, it'll match my red Swingline.

I was primed for an iPhone - but after hearing so much both ways, I'm going to need some direct feedback from pals before making a final decision on it. I recognize that I may represent a minority-type thinker, but I think the same will apply to the OpenMoko.

(Yeah, yeah, yeah - Neo1973 - whatever - I for one hate consumer products with alphabet soup names. Swift kick for a phone that says FIC on the front, but it's really a Neo1973, er, OpenMoko, er.... it's a dessert topping, it's a floor wax (now that's the '70s).)

apple tv

[jackson123r]

Apple TV puts your iTunes library -- movies, TV shows, music, and podcasts on your TV. And your digital photos appear in high definition, so you can put on a big-screen slideshow. With up to 200 hours of video, 36,000 songs, or 25,000 photos at your command, there's always something good on TV. http://www.mp4-converter.net/apple-tv-converter/

Re:code, hell. I want a non-proprietary BATTERY.

[RiffRafff]

NiMH batteries do not have the charge density that lithium-ion/lithium-polymer batteries do. They weigh too much for their capacity and cannot supply enough current on demand. Plus, you'd probably have to charge them every day or two (which would at least limit the NiMH's other problem: they lose 1% of their charge per day).

Li-ion cells are easily the way to go, here.

No camera

[arrgster]

The other bells are interesting but I use my phone camera a lot, so I can't see giving it up..

Re:No camera

[Aefix]

Agreed. If it had a camera, I'd buy one today. I never thought I would use the camera that came with the phone I got with my wireless plan, but as it turns out I use it a lot, simply because it's always with me.

Re:No camera

[cuby]

Well... The lack of camera is a bad thing... But for this first version I think they chose the most important hardware for developers ;)
Let's wait for the next release.

Re:And then Boom!

[Mr_Icon]

No, it is not. It should be:

"Uglier, but cheaper and more functional. And, hey, if it doesn't do what you need, there is always something else."

Or you know you could just try...

[NDPTAL85]

....not being anti-pop and giving popular culture a chance.

There isn't much music out there thats better. The whole "if its popular it must suck" meme has gone WAYY too far. Ever consider that something might be unpopular because it SUCKS?

Re:Or you know you could just try...

[polar red]

ever wonder why people buy the music played over and over and over and over AND OVER AND OVER on popular radio-stations ? the same reason people buy stuff that is officially advertised. Most songs on radio are being pushed by the big music-corporations to be able to sell their latest crap. And yes, there's also good music, but the chance that rises to the top of the charts is lower and lower every year, because the brainwashing gets worse every year.

SIM toolkit?

[Yenya]

I am eager to replace my current phone with Openmoko. However, I use a SIM Toolkit application for my banking. I wanted to look up whether Openmoko plans some STK support, but I have only found this post in gsmd-devel archives from March. Does anybody know what is the state of SIM Toolkit support in Openmoko?

Re:SIM toolkit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a thought: ask on the developers mailing list ?

Re:As a consumer - AVOID CDMA!

[_LORAX_]

Sprint and Verizon are both CDMA gorillas and they will refuse to activate non-branded phones. Sure the FCC requires they do, but they have figured out ways to prevent most people from doing so legally. Making insane requirements that only are met by their branded firmware using any FCC option as a mandatory requirement ( for safety reasons )... anything to prevent phone from being activated that were not sold by them.

But you can activate any CDMA phone on "page plus" which is a pre-pay service that uses the very same CDMA network. At rates as low as .06/min and .50/month it's a good deal for anyone but the biggest talker.

If you want true competition you have to go unlocked GSM since the phone will work almost anywhere in the world ( within reason ) all you need to do is pick up a SIM ( cheap usually ) card for the local provider and pop it in your phone. No need to ask for permission or fight with CSR's who don't know crap that isn't on their screen. While CDMA is slightly more efficient it's lock in effect is crazy.

Re:And then Boom!

[TheRaven64]

You can set a song you bought from the iTunes store as your ringtone for 'only' 99 on top of the price of the track. For reference, my (old) Nokia N70 lets you use any AAC file that you copy across using Bluetooth of the (included) USB cable as a ring tone.

Re:And then Boom!

[gosand]

Uglier, but cheaper and more functional. Yeah, that's pretty much open source in a nutshell.

Then we should be seeing about 200 more similar models, most of which will sit unfinished for years. What? You want GUI buttons to dial? *sigh* download the source, untar/gzip it, type ./configure --enable-gui-buttons ; make ; make install

n00b!

This is different. ATT is the deal braker.

[jotaeleemeese]

I want to buy a phone. I do not want to buy a new subscription (the current one I have is fine, thanks).

I simply will not subject to such blantant practice, thank you very much.

unfortunately it is already obsolete

[Yonder Way]

USB 1.1? MicroSD instead of SDHC?

I think this is a fantastic idea whose time has come but really would it be so hard to release it with modern hardware specs?

Re:unfortunately it is already obsolete

[BobPaul]

MicroSD refers to the size of the cards, not the protocol they speak. I believe you can find MicroSD SDHC cards. Since SDHC is just a kernel patch/module, if it's not there already it will be shortly.

Its ok, but...WHAAAA!

[Anonymous Coward]

"It locks you out of accessing the hardware fully, in the same vein that Tivo does."

Ladies and gentle corporations. I give you exhibit A. No good deed goes unpunished by the GPL community. Still want to do business with them? You might want to rethink that. I know I am.

Re:Its ok, but...WHAAAA!

[hyperbotfly]

So what you're saying is you want unlimited license to steal other people's intellectual property? That its a "good deed" to use someone elses work for your own profit without compensating them for it? Because that's what this is - its a violation of the GPL - by using the GPL code while not disclosing derived works. So yes, it is stealing.

Moko + Palm Emulator = iPhone Killer

[BennyB2k4]

A linux phone is useless unless it gets some real software applications developed for it. I would say the best path would be to port a Palm emulator onto the phone to have instant access to a large software base. Most decent apps don't need much processing power or memory to run. Then in time start rewriting the best apps to run natively.

Mobile Broadband

[wjcofkc]

This looks to be a very rich media capable phone to be lacking mobile broadband features. I would really want this phone, but only if it could do EVDO, I have great EVDO coverage and it goes well with my Motorola Q.

Then again, it is open source all the way and this is a developers release, maybe I can hold out hope that EVDO will be developed? Or is it that mobile broadband services like EVDO and EDGE cannot be developed because they are not open standards?

Everything aside, I would love one of these over an iPhone anyday just from the looks and specs alone, and I am a Mac zealot first and a Linux zealot second. (ducks)

Thin client needs a great network

[snowwrestler]

And cell networks are generally the worst networks out there right now--lowest bandwidth and highest latency. That may change in the future, but right now it is a big hurdle to the scenario you're describing. Particularly with a converged device like the iPhone, you're going to have to plug it into your PC at some point because not even 802.11n can move large chunks of data as fast as a USB 2.0 cable. This is probably a big reason Apple did not provide direct iTMS access from the phone. Even a 4 minute single would take significant time to pull down over EDGE, let alone a TV show or movie.

The iPhone is not a thin client. It's probably one of the thickest clients in the mobile market right now, with claims of a "full" version of OS X and Safari, plus all the media functions.

Go away

[rand0mbits]

I can't seem to get to the site... I guess it got /.ed

Most profound technologies

[Anonymous Coward]

From the web site:

"The most profound technologies are those that disappear. They weave themselves into the fabric of everyday life until they are indistinguishable from it."
-Mark Weiser

Is this good profoundness or evil profoundness? To become so dependent on technology can be a weakness in many ways. And once hooked, who *really* benefits from this, the dependent user or the supplier of it?

Re:code, hell. I want a non-proprietary BATTERY.

[phr1]

NiMH weigh more than li ion but the charge density (energy per unit volume) is about the same. They can provide plenty of power which is why they are used in cordless tools, R/C models, etc. They are not easily available in thin, flat shapes, so a phone using AA or AAA cells will probably be bigger than a phone using a rectangular li pack. If you need one of those tiny phones that looks like a cigarette lighter, you need lithium. But there are a heck of a lot of pocket pagers, flashlights, etc. using AA's and people have no trouble carrying those. AA's are fine if you're willing to deal with a slightly larger phone than the ultra tiny ones, and the relief from hassles is enormous.

Marketing

[PhotoGuy]

While I don't think it is as ugly as most people here are saying, I do agree with the concerns about marketing. Hell, two of their five screen shots were the "battery low warning" and "reset all configuration data" screen. Two things you generally don't want to have to deal with or think about. The message they're sending is those are two screens you'll see a lot with this device. That's pretty f'ing stupid promotion...

wrong, do the math

[phr1]

Per http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery the Neo battery is 57x38x7 mm or 15162 mm**3. It's 1200 mAH at 3.7 volts which is 4400 mWH. An AA cell is 14x50mm which is 7693 mm**3, so two of them is 15386 mm**3 which is just about the same as the Neo battery. The good ones are 2700 mAH at 1.2v, so two of them is 6480 mWH which beats the Neo battery by a wide margin. It is true that the NiMH cells weigh a little more and their shape might require making the phone a bit thicker, but I can live with that. Using 3 or 4 AAA cells (10x44mm, 1000 mAH) would have a slight penalty in energy density but would keep the phone almost as thin.

Hackers and closed source

[TheSciBoy]

Closed source or not, once a device is in the hands of malevolent hackers they can attempt to crack it. There are cracks for DVD's that allow them to read all regions, that software is closed source. There are hacks for Windows Genuine Advantage, which is closed source. Mention an electronic device that costs money to use and I bet there's a hack for it, closed source or not.

Even if the software is in protected firmware (which I bet it is) there is the potential for "patching" the firmware or abusing the open source API with some clever hacking.

Hopefully this phone won't be a target because the company behind it are trying to do something special. But if you expect people to play 'nice' then you'll generally be disappointed.

Re:Hackers and closed source

[dgatwood]

And people can't do that to any other phone because....

Re:Hackers and closed source

[TheSciBoy]

They can and are. It's just more expensive. The hardware is expensive (and has limited availability) and the software is tightly controlled. But there are phone hackers out there. I just think it's likely to be a bigger problem with an open phone like this. But I may be wrong. Let's hope I am.

Thanks, that helps

[phr1]

to at least have some specs and see that it can use Nokia batteries, which are relatively easy to find. However the part about hacking to use AA cells is useless, unless the phone is physically engineered to hold AA cells. The idea of a portable phone is that it is self contained, powered by batteries inside the handset, not through some external kludge connected by wires that's likely to be confiscated at customs if you ever try to get on a plane with it. Using an external pack is possible with most phones, but is not remotely (no pun intended) satisfactory.

Charger

[Anonymous Coward]

It charges over USB.

how could this happen?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to sound like an all paranoid mad tin foil hatter but either there must be some big company behind openmoko or I don't know what.
Although the site is a bit sparse on details, the NEO1973 seems like an actual, real and very nice product. It just looks to good to be true, right? I do believe that some guys in Taiwan can now just start their own company and design, build and market such a device but what I can't believe is that no big company wouldn't make them an offer they can't refuse and then hear nothing of it ever again. I would actually consider starting a tech company just to be bought. Have I lost touch with reality here?

Features

[Anonymous Coward]

How does it compare, feature-wise, to the HTC Kaiser and Nokia 9300i?

I currently have an HTC Wizard. I'm thinking of upgrading to one of the above phones around the end of the year. Does the OpenMoko compare with the Kaiser and 9300i feature-wise?

Interesting indeed...

[feedmetrolls]

But will it run Compiz Fusion?

No wifi. Less space than a nomad.

[Poromenos1]

Lame.

JavaFX Script on top of OpenMoko could work

[MCRocker]

At JavaOne 2007, SUN announced their new Java phone that includes JavaFX script mobile. Their demo showed a very interactive user experience that was very similar to the iPhone and a, potentially, easy to work with development story. After doing some digging, it turns out that their phone is essentially the old SavaJe platform running JavaFX mobile on top of Linux on an OpenMoko phone.

So, it does seem that a good, interactive, UI will be available, accessible to regular developers and have a good starting point based on work done by professionals at SUN.

It's also interesting to note that all of this stuff predates the iPhone despite the eerie similarities.

Sometimes they are trying to screw you...

[SanityInAnarchy]

Here's an example: Ring tones. Ring tones, wallpapers, screensavers, and assorted bullshit. The typical way you get this on a closed phone is, you dial some number you saw on TV, and you get charged something like $1 to download some tiny fragment of a song you doubtless already bought on CD.

On an open phone, you just rip the CD, then send the file to your phone -- like you would with an iPod, say.

The real reason for DRM -- not that people listen when I point this out -- is to be able to do crap like that. Sell you the same song five times -- once on a CD (which can ONLY be played on CD players, and not even all of them), again for your iPod, again as a ringtone on your phone, again as a soundtrack for your game console, and a fifth time because you'll lose one of the others and can't make backups.

But I don't think developers are going to create an amazing consumer application. If we do, someone will find a way to charge everyone on a "normal" phone to get the same thing. I'd settle for an amazing developer phone, and if we do create something useful, and users buy the phone and download our useful software, more power to them. I just want something I can hack.

Re:Sometimes they are trying to screw you...

[greatcelerystalk]

I can do the same thing with my Motorola Q as far as ringers are concerned. I frequently find a part of a favorite song I would like as a ringtone and create an mp3 ringtone with Audacity.

Re:Sometimes they are trying to screw you...

[BigRedFed]

Try http://www.djtonexpress.com/. Software is only 10 bucks. Allows you to send any song to just about any phone on a good selection of carriers in the US as a full song, or snipit. Also has free plugins to do do stuff like wallpaper and such.

As a consumer - AVOID WAR

[Anonymous Coward]

"While CDMA is slightly more efficient it's lock in effect is crazy."

Slightly? Slightly!

The real reason: iPhone

[SanityInAnarchy]

The iPhone already has accelerometers, and the reason is simple: It can then figure out when you flip it on its side. Thus, it automatically changes the interfaces to reflect whether you're holding it vertically or horizontally. Combine that with other sensors, and it can figure out when you're holding it to your ear (and thus disable the display).

Others have already mentioned a lot of the creative things that could be done with it beyond that, so I'll mention one -- scrolling. Put simply, if it's accurate enough, imagine having a document that is digitally the size of a wall -- rather than scrolling through it, you simply move the phone around the document.

iTunes? wtf?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Wake me when it syncs with iTunes and automatically pulls my contacts, music, movies, TV shows, and calendar.

Assuming you want it to sync to a desktop at all, what the hell is iTunes doing syncing your calendar?

Here's another question: Does it have to be iTunes? Would you move to another app if the other app could sync with your iPod and devices like this?

Be specific...

[SanityInAnarchy]

The only "reality check" I see here is that the new version is actually going to be about as expensive as the iPhone.

What makes you think it's not a competitor, other than not seeing ads every three seconds on cable TV?

US carriers

[krischik]

Luckily Sprint exists ony in the US and the remaining 95% of the world population use propper GSM carriers. I just shoff in the SIM card and it works.

Visit the parent in law - which live abroad - I just buy a local prepaied card - shove it in - and it works. Just like that - no trouble at all.

Honestly: Whenever I read about Sprint I think: How can anybody ever subscribe to that sh...
Martin

Re:US carriers

[Anonymous Coward]

Luckily Sprint exists only in the US and the remaining 95% of the world population use proper GSM carriers. You can use GSM in the US too. Both GSM and CDMA networks exist here. However, given a choice, most people prefer CDMA.

3G Please!

[bWareiWare.co.uk]

We are not all Americans!

Seriously my network doesn't support non-3G phones, not that I would want to go back anyway.

what carriers?

[xoyoboxoyobo]

Not too knowledgeable on the different networks. I do know I'm stuck with Verizon Wireless for a long time to come. Does anyone know how easy/hard it is to use this phone with the different networks? Since it's an unlocked phone can I just stroll down to my local Verizon outlet and tell them to switch my account to that phone? I remember I had a hell of a time some years back buying a phone in New York and activating that ... even I bought that from a Verizon outlet too.

VOIP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it offer VOIP applications? or is that the beauty of this?

if it offers VOIP, I'm getting one so fast it'll make your head spin.

Though I wanna see a good warranty and a good review first, just in case it's built poorly.

Just good luck getting a sim or using an existing sim with it, most cell companies will give you a hard time. I know, I worked for a cell provider before, they dont want people with unlocked phones on their network, and if something goes wrong they will not help you at all and will blame any mishap with their network or with billing on the phone. Some even have contracts where "unauthorized phones" (aka, phones they dont support) arent allowed on their network. I think AT&T is the worst offender of this.

Troubling AT&T GSM coverage

[Da_Biz]

AT&T/Cingular may be good everywhere else in the US, but their coverage seems troubling in Portland, OR.

Over the last five years, it seems like friends who have AT&T service experience a higher rate of coverage problems (no signal), especially in apartments and certain neighborhoods that are in the core of the Portland Metro area.

I have virtually had no issues with Sprint's network, and Verizon's seems to be quite reliable. I suspect it's in part due to Portland's topography (multipath issues due to hills, etc.), a better Sprint/Verizon network deployment and/or a gap in GSM's ability to perform adequately in our circumstance.

I'd really love to move to GSM (I've already got an unlocked quad-band RAZR I use in Europe), but I just don't want to chance the dicey voice quality.

Re:Troubling AT&T GSM coverage

[Panaflex]

Tell you what.. go down to walmart and buy a Cingular ToGo plan - they'll sell you the SIM chip for 14 dollars (which includes 14 dollars of talk time too).

Stick the sim in your RAZR and give it a try. If it doesn't work you're only out 14 dollars - of which you got to use for calls anyway.

Coverage is going to be different for EVERY location - and it has more to do with tower height and placement. Also I've had specific model problems(v300, v55x) Motorola's from a year or two ago seems to have degrading GSM problems - signal connections on the phone wore out and broke. RAZR doesn't have this issue.

Good luck!

Re:Troubling AT&T GSM coverage

[Da_Biz]

Good tip! My friends have used a variety of _new_ phones with Cingular in Portland (Motorola, Blackberry, etc.) with intermittent problems.

That said, for $14, it's worth a shot.

Here's why *I* want it with a camera

[Anonymous Coward]

So yeah, the Neo is really under-featured, if you're into cell phone cameras. But if you're into flexibility, and not being locked in to a broken phone for two years at a time, I think it's got possibilities.

I'm an oddball, I'll be the first to admit. Up until I saw the Neo, I wasn't at all interested in cell phone cameras. Why do I like the idea of a camera on the Neo? Because of the big open loop on the bottom!

I'm a rock climber. I'd love to have a small camera to take with me to the top of a pitch, but I'm afraid the little shoelace-thickness hand-loop they put on most cameras wouldn't survive. With this thing, I can put full-strength webbing through the device itself -- awesome.

Come to think of it, if you made *just* a camera in this form factor, I might buy it. But a phone + GPS + wifi + camera would be perfect.

Internet is like $20

[thegnu]

Plus, on T-Mobile, internet service that is not routed through their laggy-ass proxy is $20. The Wifi thing is cool, because you would still need to get a $30/mo 20minute/mo plan ANYWAY. So why do they care about wifi? They should ask consumers if they have computers, and if they do, charge them extra money for cutting into their profits.

CDMA is illegal in the EU

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think CDMA phones exist here,

All of this stuff does NOT predate iPhone

[melted]

Because it's still not out and iPhone is. You keep forgetting that iPhone has been in development for 3 years before it was announced.

And professionals at SUN don't know jack shit about user interfaces, I'm sorry. That's just not what SUN does.

Re:All of this stuff does NOT predate iPhone

[MCRocker]

While I'd agree that SUN doesn't have a stellar reputation where GUI's are concerned, they didn't invent this stuff yesterday... they bought most of it. SavaJe had been working on the VM for almost eight years now, Linux on mobile platforms has been around just as long and JavaFX is just a scripting language, that has also been under development for a while, that sits on top of existing Swing libraries.

They have some very slick demos that compare well with Flash.

Of course, I'll be the first to admit that it'll take a while before they have it all integrated and have some professional level tools out there, but it's an encouraging, solid, first step. Also, on this particular platform, it's already most of the way there regardless of how long it takes them to solve the consumer VM issues on other platforms.

Re: Cingular coverage and 2.5G/3G data speed

[billstewart]

The point of having mobile service is so you can be mobile - but if you spend a lot of time at work or at home, you do want your mobile phone to work there so other people can just call you instead of having to guess which phone to call you on.

AT&T Wireless aka Cingular has been putting a lot of money into expanding their network in the last couple of years, both before and after the merger. There are cities where they're the best coverage available, and there are still cities where they suck rocks, or cities where they've got good coverage in most of the city but not at your house or office or favorite coffeeshop. Their website has a Coverage Map that shows fairly fine-grained detail about coverage.

What really sucked for a while was their treatment of AT&T Wireless customers after they bought AT&T Wireless. I'm not unbiased here - as a stockholder, I was happy that they paid far above market price for the leftovers of AT&T Wireless, but as a consumer I was annoyed that they kept getting my bills wrong (usually by forgetting how many minutes a month I had on my contract and charging me for lots of overage.) I didn't have any trouble with signal coverage, but my brother-in-law had trouble in parts of LA.

As far as network speed goes, EDGE was blazingly fast when it came out :-) 1xRTT is similar speed, maybe a bit faster, but the big difference is how heavily loaded your cell site is for either network, because the average performance of either standard is a lot lower than the peak. EVDO is faster than EDGE; HSDPA is faster than EVDO. EVDOrevA is faster than EVDO and maybe faster than HSDPA; HSUPA is faster than HSDPA and EVDOrevA, and after that each side will have yet another version, though they may not be using the "Generation" marketing propaganda names for it.

EDGE is slower than my DSL at home, but the iPhone's screen is smaller than my PC. For watching videos, that probably matters, but for most other things it doesn't. I'm not into watching videos on small screens, but then I'm not the iPhone's target customer either, so I may not be a good judge of that. (I've got an iPod with video, but basically only use it for music.)

Re:You can't possibly provide better user experien

[Danny Rathjens]

An open phone doesn't have to cater its interface solely to the lowest common denominator like apples does, though. The best interface for a computer geek is not the best interface for a business executive. No matter how smart or well paid your interface designers are, they will have to make trade-offs.

iPhone != best designed phone

[r_jensen11]

Sorry, but the iPhone is not the best designed phone. No phone is the best designed phone. Why? Because everyone has different needs. The iPhone would be a horrible phone for a parent to give their preteen/teen (not that I think they should have cell phones anyway, but that's beside the point.) Nor is it the best designed phone for an older person with arthritis. Nor is it the best designed phone for someone who loves the outdoors and does things like go camping. Nor is it a good phone for those who spend a considerable amount of time overseas.

Re:iPhone != best designed phone

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPhone would be a horrible phone for a parent to give their preteen/teen Why? Because it's expensive?

Nor is it the best designed phone for an older person with arthritis. On the contrary; the larger keys, lower pressure threshold, and corrective text input would be immensely beneficial for people with limited finger mobility and strength.

Nor is it the best designed phone for someone who loves the outdoors and does things like go camping. Why can't it go camping? It has a phenomenally bright display. Moving from a T-Mobile MDA, this thing is clear as day in full sunlight, pun intended.

Nor is it a good phone for those who spend a considerable amount of time overseas. A function merely of its newness. Once unlocked, it will be, like any other GSM handset, infinitely more useful than a CDMA/PCS handset.

My smartphone priorities and wish list

[jaypaulw]

In order of importance to me:

1. Use as "mobile phone" is preeminent design feature. That means good quality radio, battery life, low response latency, easily accessible dialing pad and easily searchable contact list to dial out from. Stability is a more important features when phone design is first, I believe. Even if other applications are going to crash, I don't want a dead phone as a result.

2. Over-the-air sync to email, calendar, contacts, and tasks. I think anyone would be crazy not to have support for exchange activesync in a smartphone if business users are being targeted at all. Maybe exchange activesync is defective by design so support for blackberry and or goodlink would be smart as well. Over the air sync to google calendar and gmail. Plugging in to sync this stuff is lame.

3. wide little plastic keyboard

4. EVDO or faster data speeds

5. Can fit in pocket fairly easily.

At this point I basically have my blackberry 8703e which I am very happy with. As far as wish list I'd like to add (and yes these wishes are only loosely based in the realm of reality)

6. 3-3.5" screen (touchscreen not necessarily essential)

7. GPS - which is independent of mobile carrier service coverage.

8. auto integration. (I've had bluetooth to dash / steering wheel integration and I've had true ipod integration in cars with different devices and it was so great)

9. at least 30gb of storage to start having enough space for movies.

10. ability to play back music and avc movies. audio through standard headphone jack.

11. supplemental battery support for converting device from "pockatable" to "luggable."

There really isn't an ideal form factor for all of this with what I can extrapolate to be current technological and engineering limitations.

I really don't wish to use this device to pull up a "ssh" because I really don't know what ssh is (well I have an idea, but I don't need it). Maybe I don't think this is all too far off and I think these are the features many people want.

Re:And then Boom!

[thynk]

I guess that's just a locked down feature in the iPhone... I can play any mp3 as a ring tone on my Cingular 8525. So... is it at&t/cingular or Apple that is preventing it from happening? *shrug*, I don't know and honestly don't care. When the next phone upgrade cycle happens (in a year or so) I'll sure put an OSS based phone at the top of the list, by that time, this model phone will either be dead or will have the coolest apps written for it :-)

Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wanted to have a phone where I'd have to recompile something in order to change the display font settings.

Re:As a consumer - AVOID CDMA!

[True Vox]

Where can I find out more about unlocking my CDMA RAZR from US Cellular with Page Plus? It's useless to me (deactivated) and I'd like to start using it again. I didn't see anything on their website, but maybe I didn't look hard enough...

Conversation...

[madbawa]

Alice: M=uuencode('Hello?')
Bob: uudecode(M)
****incorrect version****
Alice: M="hello"
Bob: R="hello Alice"
Alice: So have you...
****SIGSEGV: Segmentation fault. Core dumped*****
Bob: OUCH!!! Help! I've got core in my ears...

that's great

[RMH101]

...are they shipping an A2DP bluetooth chip and a surface-mount soldering system in the box with Leopard, so that I can put in my Macbook to replace the existing one that *doesn't* support A2DP?

Re:that's great

[47Ronin]

It's a software update. The Bluetooth systems in nearly all Mac models that have them should already support A2DP (but are missing the software driver) ...again once Leopard arrives. This is according to the latest developer builds of 10.5.

Re:that's great

[RMH101]

I really hope this is true: I'd be very happy if my MB could stream via A2DP. Fingers crossed!

Most disingineous comment.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have some background in human interface design.

What you are saying is complete, utter and unadulterated nonsense, of the kind ejaculated by people that are completely ignorant about a field but that talk with the cynicism only ignorance can entertain.

A marketing guy just simply hasn't got the background to come up with something like the click wheel, the organization of the menus or the internals to ensure navigation of the interface is smooth even with many GiagaBytes of data.

The marketroids may come with some general desirable traits of a given device, but they have not got a chance in hell to provide the features that make something useful (this requires an engineering and scientific approach).

Why no BYOP discount?

[tepples]

Rather than buying locked phones and whining about how difficult it is to unlock them why not just buy an unlocked phone? Perhaps because unlocked phones can cost 2-4 times as much as the same phone with a contract? Then why don't I get a discount on my contract for bringing my own phone? And why do I have so much trouble finding SIM-only prepaid plans in retail stores?

Um.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have you been lately? For the last two-three years, phones have been using a random handy mp3 as ringtone just fine...

In hospitals?

[Anonymous Coward]

In hospitals? *boggle* ... um, hospitals doesn't like mobile phones generally, but I've never seen them frown on cameras. Why would they? Is this an american thing?

Interesting. . .

[tekshogun]

I can see my self being an early adopter more for something like this than an iPhone. At least with this device you can get on any GSM network (generally). Did anyone watch the demo videos? Notice how these people didn't blank out their cell phone numbers when making calls. They'll regret sometime soon I'm sure. But this phone is rather sweet.

To the non-techies... so?

[Joe Maz]

After hearing the countless complaints about the iPhone, most of which regarding no third-party support, hearing about this device is almost a god-send. I can't begin to count how many times I look at a feature or function of my phone and say to myself, "I wish it did it this way." To hear that I can now have the power to either request developer's to do just that, or just do it my self is more exciting news to me then the iPhone itself. Of course, there are problems. Reading around the site (can't find the quote) it states that users shouldn't even expect to use it as their main phone for a few months. Not terrible, it is open source after all, and even the iPhone isn't polished.
But to my main point, after getting overly excited for this news I immedietly reported it to a friend who is "not as technical" to say the least. "Why would I want to learn how to code if I can buy a phone that already has all those features, and actually works?" My point exactly. This phone is at best only going to be a geeky device for those who know how to code and use it. While I'm not saying it's not a great idea, they should really have waited for a more stable release that you can actually use before they let this loose into the public.

Re:And then Boom!

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that in three months, they're coming out with the Neo1973 "Mass Market" phone, which includes WiFi b/g. WiFi g should allow zippy file transfers, making USB 2.0 unnecessary. Lack of multitouch is a downer, but it will have accelerometers. It will also have things the iPhone sorely lacks--a VGA screen and built-in GPS. It's also rumored (though not confirmed) that the mass market phone will have a whopping 256 megs of SDRAM.

So yeah, even looking at the hardware alone it rivals the iPhone.