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Verizon, Copper, Fiber, and the Truth
Alexander Graham Cracker writes "Starting last spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service. We discussed the issue here a couple of times. In my experience, every time Verizon has installed FiOS at a friend's house, they have insisted they have to cut off the copper and move the POTS to the fiber. By doing so, they block anyone else such as COVAD or Cavalier from renting the copper for competitive access. Sources report that today, at a hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, Verizon executive VP Thomas Tauke denied ever doing that. (The transcript should be up in a day or so. The AP coverage does not mention this detail.) I wonder if Rep. Markey's staff is interested in hearing from people who experienced Verizon disabling copper, and without notice?"
So they're blocking off potential competitors? At least it's spurring the move to Fiber Optic...
When I switched from cable internet to FiOS earlier this year I was told that had to permanently cut the copper wire to my house. So I now have fiber phone service. Works fine, except for the short delay that always occurs between picking up the phone and using it. They also put a battery in my basement to give me eight hours of phone service during a power outage.
The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
Only here on slashdot can we have one article http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/02/1631217 whining about the internets short comings. Then have another article complaining about companies and how they upgrade to fiber. Look, verizon should have every right on earth to move someone from old copper to new Fiber. Why? Its less upkeep. Does this mean some companies can't use the copper? Sure does! *THATS GOOD* Fiber == Future. Copper == Past. This is the idea of capitalism, we want an even playing field for companies so that they can edge out the competition with better prices/ideas. Verizon is doing that, and quiet well. They are edging out older ideas with newer ones. The fact they are disconnecting copper does not stop these companies from coming back and RECONNECTING them. Does it?
From someone who will be unable to receive FIOS at all for probably a long time (not that they let anyone know where they're expanding), I'm having trouble feeling sympathetic. Sure, if they're actually lying about it, that's bad, though I knew that they did this, so it can't be that secret. Usually these types of Slashdot stories are greatly exaggerated in order to appeal to the all-corporations-are-evil people, and frankly I'm too lazy to RTFA to see if this is another one.
All someone would need to do to validate these claims would be to bring in a competitor and have them try to offer services through said copper. It would be hearsay to make a statement without something other than a "word of mouth" to back up a claim. Doing so - bringing in an alternative provider - provides irrefutable proof. However being crafty I can think of an instance where someone @ Verizon can make an argument charging that the copper coming into the home was causing some form of crosstalk which caused attenuation issues and required the copper being "disabled". Note the intentional use of "disabled" as opposed to "cut". I personally could see some twobit Verizon shlum doing something stupid on their own accord. "If we cut the copper John we never have to worry about losing our job!"
Infiltrated dot Net
Nope, my pennies still seem to work..
"A nation that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it." - Churchill
Ummm, maybe it would have made sense to hold off on this story until it's found to be true, instead of telling us that "sources report" something that's not in the linked article? Far be it from me to doubt Alexander Graham Cracker's "sources", but just on principle...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Talk to any person who got FIOS in Florida and you'll see they cut the cable. What does this guy want, pictures of the line before and after? That's easy to do.
Wheel of Time: Book by Book and Sumview (summary review) Bigdady92 style: http://bigdady92.blogspot.com/
This is why the company that provides telephone service should be a separate company from the one that maintains the wires. Same with power. Same with cable.
They left my copper in, because it was too difficult to remove. However, even when he was trying to do so , I was well aware he was going to remove the copper.
I generally stick around when contractors are rewiring my house, but I suppose if you're not one of those people, it may come as a surprise. It's probably one of those things on the checklist of stuff to mention, and it doesn't happen sometimes. I've had friends get fiber, be told they're removing the copper, asked them to not remove it, and there were no problems.
Also, I had a bird's nest of copper in my house. I got FiOS so my phone and internet would be over a clear digital connection, and it hasn't gone down since the day it went in (early this summer). I could care less about the speed.
What I want to know is why Covad can't run their own lines to your home themselves. Sure, copper is expensive, and so is labor to run it, but if you offer a competitive service and provide for your customers, they tend to stick with you for years and years. What's preventing Covad from just dropping their own cables city by city? Let's forget any laws that force Verizon to allow competitors to use THEIR copper, and focus on why competitors can't have THEIR OWN copper, or fiber.
Sources report that today, at a hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, Verizon executive VP Thomas Tauke denied ever doing that.
In congress' opinion, this is a non-issue, as long as Verizon leaves the tubes intact.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Or further up the line? Because the Telco is responsible up to the demarcation point, after which, it is the customer's wiring. Which side are they cutting? How significant is this cutting? Whole sections, or just a snip here to isolate the premise wiring in preparation of new equipment installation?
Okay, allow me to be an anonymous snob, but I live in Houston, TX, the 4th largest city in the country and the majority of our city is not covered by Verizon's FIOS network. I'd love to have this kind of connectivity, and honestly I could not give less of a crap if they cut off competetive cable providers. Comcast has overtaken Time Warner here with their fluffy-duffy marketing campaign while they implement policies to INJECT PACKETS into YOUR INTERNET traffic http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/04/2014236which is essentially identity theft. I wish I had the problem that you're having with FIOS because that would mean I'd have faster, more reliable internet, albeit with my own set of grudges I have against Verizon, however that is a post for another thread ;)
Verizon has always lied about how they handle their physical connections.
:-/... so yeah I'm not surprised by this at all.
Back in the day they kept telling me that I could get DSL only to cancel my order without notice. That happened 4 time over 6 months before I finally got a guy that would admit that they had run out of DSLAM ports. I couldn't believe that it took six months to find out that they couldn't keep up with demand so they were just canceling my accounts. Sadly they were the only option I had so I kept at it until I finally got a connection.
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
The sad part is that they are only doing this for one reason:
Scrap copper money.
In a world where a company will do anything to keep wall street and its investors happy, they have decided to make money off the scrap copper now that they are going fiber optic.
Actually, they are now looking into scrap fiber optic for the next generation.
Verizon's telco predecessors made that capital investment with gov't guaranteed monopolies. In short, it really ISN'T Verizon's copper, it is copper paid for by taxes and a gov't granted monopoly. It is national infrastructure.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
We had FIOSS put in because the 7 MB/sec line was faster and cheaper than the T-1. They not only cut our copper, but they dug up and removed most of the copper cabling from the neighborhood. They said that with the price of copper, it would be recycled and it would keep it from being stolen since it wasn't being used anymore. It sounded suspicious to me, but I stood in what was then my front yard and watched them do it.
2 cents,
Queen B.
HDGary secures my bank
If this is happening on a wide scale, then is it a crime? Seriously.
Whomever is parading in front of whatever subcommittee can plausibly deny it, so a slap on the wrist is the maximum penalty. Copper is still cut. The worst thing that could ever happen is an over-eager schmuck will "fall on the sword" and lose his job.
Based on my friend who performs fiber installs to the home for the local telco, It's more or less outside the scope of the job order. Is he the kind of guy that would just leave the copper alone and call the install done despite what the work order may say? Yes. Is it happening? Maybe.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I'm outta mod points... just when I need them...
But I've had enough of Verizon's bullshit. In my area, they seem to come up with these random bill charges to my FIOS account. Like they pulled a 400$ bill out of their ass and said, "Hey look what I found!" Not to mention, the random outages and the gimped router they started giving out with new installations. A NAT table the size of a text file.
Granted, this is probably only relevant to my area, but it's still enough for me to warrant a switch to another company.
Hello There Time-Warner Road Runner
(An Evil for an Evil)
Hi, Andy Ryan. Things haven't worked that way up here on the surface in several decades.
If a company has a monopoly in an area, they're legally required to do certain things that make it possible for other companies to compete with them. Otherwise, they WILL start screwing people left and right, and use their muscle to prevent competition. This was not put into law because of a shadowy fear of what might happen in the future; it was put into law after decades of gouging by trusts and monopolies. Society IS better for it.
... that we don't have multiple companies creating their own parallel toll-roads: it's a horribly inefficient use of a limited resource (space). And just like toll-roads, the initial investment is high and pays off best when there is no competition. The first one to gather the resources to build the first road/connection gets to enjoy advantages that anyone coming after them won't have, such as an existing revenue stream, sticky customers, mind-share, being the standard, etc.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
I was a COVAD business customer for a while until I moved my office. An 'interesting' discovery I had made was anytime I was browsing on a competing ISP's page for a while (such as Comcast or Verizon), I'd consistently receive a phone call from them within 24 hours making sure I was satisfied with my service. They stated it was a "random" survey, but I never was surveyed any other time, and I can think of at least three occasions when they did survey me after visiting a competitor's site.
I'm curious if anyone else has experienced this or can confirm that this does happen.
Markey is a total socialist. He'll take any chance he can get to go after a business, until everyone is unemployed and has to get a job working for the super-government.
This is my sig.
spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service
Last spring? I had FiOS installed in early to mid 2005 and the installer asked to remove my copper. At the time I hadn't yet cancelled my T1. But for that I've no doubt he'd have removed it.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Contracts and space. There is only so much space on the public utility right of way, and between the cable, telco, and power services, it's pretty much used. Right now, there are places in MA where the FIOS lines are being attached to extensions over the pole, and techs getting electricuted because of it.
As for the contracts, the only way to be profitable is to play a numbers game - it takes an average of 3-6 months to break even for a given customer - so you need LOTS of customers to cover your churn, and that means lots of municipalities. Trying to make an individual contract with each municipality is a nightmare for both the physical plant people & the legal department.
You may want to look up LEC, ILEC and CLEC.
That "capital investment" has many strings attached to it and apparently Verizon is styling themselves as a modern Alexander.
... they've introduced a new rule.
As long as you link previous articles once or twice in the summary, it's fine to post dupes!
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
the problem here, is that verizon is bringing in FIOS to those communities who allow them to change the twisted pair monopoly to a fiber monopoly WITH no competition from old twisted pair. So, there are only 2 choices to these homes (most all of the cable contracts do not require resellers be allowed). I am guessing that it will require a new president who is not part of the establishment (perhaps paul or obama) who will do the right thing as opposed to what brings their party more money.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
First off. I do not have FiOS. I probably would if I lived somewhere where it was offered because of the potential bandwidth opportunities. I have discussed the network that Verizon is setting up with some of my buddies who install for them. It appears to be a type of glass threw connection over a single strand for hundreds of households. It is prone to dB loss and don't even think about pulling the specs for the splices and couplers that they are using. It is a great idea and a very telco like implementation. I fully understand running more than one user on a single strand of fiber however they are running hundreds with high db loss and compensating with repeaters. I guess if I was going to do it I would have simply ran a larger bundle of fibers to a neighborhood and broke it apart there. That would allow for vast expansion on the part of the telco. I could spend the rest of the afternoon discussing this but it appears to me that more planning and a better execution would be a smart play for everyone. As far as removing the copper... I don't really care either way. They are removing it to the pole in my yard and if I decide to change the telco will just re-run new line...
These days Copper market is up, likely they view it as a money saving issue. They want to keep the copper tubes from eroding as data goes thru them. (what did you think that series of Tubes was made from???)
You know what a series of copper tubes gets you at the recycle place? Being really frugal gets you that Villa in Tuscany.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
You would think that wires run to the closest exchange, but that is not always the case. I saw a case at USWest (LONG ago), where the closest exchange was across the street, but because it was added later, our wires ran several miles up the road.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Color me cynical, but what do you suggest when the whole election process has been subverted to the point that only pro-business candidates ever seem to get far enough to be voted upon? Seriously, when was the last time a truly progressive (and I don't mean "liberal", I mean "working for positive change for more than the candidate's own pocketbook") candidate made it through all the primaries and other BS to reach the ballot with any serious chance of gaining office? A few third parties have historically made it to the ballot, but by the time of the election, they've been painted with such a broad brush of unacceptabilty by the media and the two entrenched parties that they haven't stood much of a chance. Armed revolution has been brought up a few times as one possible option, but it really looks to me like the vast majority of the country is either too apathetic or too enamoured of the status quo to go that far. People aren't poor and pinched enough yet to really get motivated.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Fiber == Future. Copper == Past. This is the idea of capitalism, we want an even playing field for companies so that they can edge out the competition with better prices/ideas. Verizon is doing that, and quiet well.
If things really were free, you would be right. They are not and you are selling yourself out. It was a sin for government to grant Ma Bell a monopoly. To undo that sin, the public servitude must be liberated and the Bell holdings must be dissolved. The other answer is to have a completely public network that everyone can use. Any combination of the two will favor one company over the others and this is why US networks have gone from world supremacy to third rate status. Verizon is doing what they are doing so that others won't be able to serve you. When they are finished robbing you of choice they will take your freedom.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Wasn't the installation of some of the copper phone wiring subsidized, especially in rural areas? If so, it seems like VZ owes the subsidy back.
When I had mine installed (twice - I have two ONTs, one for business and one for personal) I had them leave the copper. The guy told me it was no problem. For the second install when I asked I was told that they always leave the copper because MA law requires them to offer E911 service over it. Other co-workers in the area have said the same. There was a 1 year gap between my two installs, so perhaps you got your installed before they stopped pulling the copper? Did you even ask them not to pull the copper?
Summary: They used to pull the copper unless you asked them not to. Now they don't pull it ever because it's against the law (in Massachusetts). If you already had a third-party DSL circuit on your copper before you got FiOS installed, they would leave your copper too, since the existing circuit was being used.
As an aside, the battery they provide only keeps voice online. Data and TV aren't covered. I keep my ONTs hooked up to an APC BackUPS 4500 which keeps it and my underclocked (Athlon 1400+ running at 700mhz) server running for about 36 hours. That way my mail & web server stays online, I can use my laptop to access the internet and my TiVo doesn't miss anything, even if the power is out.
Lastly, if you have FiOS internet, why not get Vonage, or another VoIP phone service? More features, less money, and you already have the battery-backup issue anyway.
Yes, they are explicitly trying to block Covad's ADSL2. Here's a link:
http://speakeasy.net/business/adsl2/
Notice that 15 Mbps is far better than what the Telco's are offering. ATT in particular, who will only give you 6 Mbps for Internet access, out of the 100 Mbps that their U-Verse lines are capabable of.
Also note that ADSL2 is only now just being rolled out to select areas, and is for business. Once competition heats up, the price will drop.
Sigh. I wish I had it now.
So yes, keep your copper lines.
I know this because I was trying to get fiber, then found a huge long thread on Usenet as to why there's no fiber in Sunnyvale, where I live and work: basically the telcos are trying to squeeze all the money they can out of old infrastructure, without investing in new.
This left me with cable and DSL. I don't want Comcast cable internet because they filter BitTorrent. I operate a torrent tracker for legal music downloads, so I need to use BitTorrent just to check that my tracker and seed are up.
DSL seemed to out as well because I'm over three miles from the phone office. I was very surprised that something hadn't already been done to make DSL available to silicon valley residents. I'm sure there are ways they could extend the range of DSL in an affordable way.
Finally I found Stephouse which, through COVAD, offers IDSL. That's DSL over ISDN, and I'm just within range. It's what I have now.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
Because if the telcos know they'll have to share fiber they won't put it in. It makes sense to have the fiber in before requiring it be open.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Anyone who doesn't think this is a crime is a moron. *We* paid for this indirectly by subsidizing telco monopolies with our tax dollars. Also, isn't Verizon the company that has tried to stop the 700MHZ auction through legal auction? They are bending over backwards to try and eliminate competition. It's painfully obvious and it really pisses me off. As for that right-wing troll who complains about Markey being a socialist, I wish I could put him in a factory before the Sherman Act of 1890. I bet we wouldn't hear him complaining about socialist tendencies then. Furthermore, is it really 'anti-business' if the government is trying to encourage *competition* ? Think about it moron. What you really should be complaining about is Verizon and their ilk taking money from the cookie jar that is the Universal Service Fund which is *supposed* to guarantee service to rural areas - $4B out of our pockets *every year*. Have you ever tried using your cell phone in a remote area? Do you think you can get high-speed internet in Bald Knob, Arkansas? I seriously doubt it. Futhermore, Verizon won the $10B Federal IWN contract *and* wants to get more government money from the USF for the 700MHZ spectrum. Their gall knows no bounds. If you are a true republican you should be complaining about all this pork and the pig that is Verizon. Quadraginta, *please* STFU!
It's never good to get the coppers angry.
By doing so, they block anyone else such as COVAD or Cavalier from renting the copper for competitive access.
In my experience, copper CAN'T compete with Fiber. Does that mean that this really doesn't apply?
If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
Go here, http://www.dslreports.com/forum/vzfiber
Search for copper. They've been ripping/cutting the copper for years. I'm sure all these people aren't lying. It's mostly to eliminate competition. Reading some of the comments it's amazing how deceptive Verizon can be. Here's one.
I asked Verizon specifically about this issue. Here is the response that I got from a Verizon spokeswoman: "Once we install fiber to a home, it stays there. We aren't going to take down the fiber and reinstall copper, but people can still get their single-line, no-frills Verizon phone service over the fiber network for the same amount as the folks still served by copper, if that's what they want. Our FTTP network is likely to be even more reliable than their already-reliable Verizon copper-based phone service."
Note how they say "no-frills VERIZON" phone service because you can't get anyone else. You're going to pay what they want you to pay.
Several techie friends say they have gotten their copper left active with a FIOS install by ordering "Data Only FIOS" by phone (not online), and being VERY persistent, both in ordering and at install time. YMMV.
I accidentally got my ex's copper left active because I still had the phone account in my name when she got the FIOS installed in her name, so there was an active phone number on the copper that they didn't have permission to touch.
I let them cut the copper when FIOS was installed in my new townhouse, and in my case they cut it off just below ground level, and didn't dig up the buried copper.
2 reasons to want copper are:
1) Copper stays live during long power outages, because the telco provides the power on it, while POTS over fiber depends on a limited runtime battery backup (unless you provide your own backup to that)
2) Some alarm companies still require copper lines (not normally a technical need, more a headspace problem).
Another reason Verizon wants to switch to fiber is for maintenance - fiber has a fewer and cleaner failure modes than copper, and they can remotely locate many fiber breaks to within inches or at least feet. Fiber mostly either works or doesn't, while copper can degrade multiple ways: increased resistance, bad connections, insulation breaking, crosstalk, water damage, etc.
That said, this city was a test market for FIOS, and I know a number of people who did have their copper removed when the service was installed, in some cases despite their specific request that it be left intact. My sense is that the bad publicity associated with the removal of the copper caused a policy shift...Verizon has other reasons to want people to use FIOS, after all, and in this area their main competition is cable rather than alternate DSL providers. FIOS is the superior service, so improving uptake pays even if they don't reclaim the legacy last mile.
And who told you that you can't allow a competitor to run a new cable to your property? It wasn't Verizon who made a regulation making them the sole provider -- it was your local and State government. Don't be mad at Verizon because your government is completely fraudulent and corrupt -- if you vote, kick everyone out on the next election, and keep doing it until someone removes the monopoly provisions.
Actually the best way to deal with a Natural Monopoly like landlines is to separate the infrastructure from services. Maybe instead of a business owning the infrastructure local governments, nonprofits, or business can own it but then they are required to allow open access. This is what's being done in northeastern Utah with a Broadband Utopia. A group of communities in the area built the infrastructure and allows anyone to offer any services it is capable of. It could be internet access, phone service, "cable" tv, or any combination (Triple Play". How would you like a 30 megabit per second, mps, connection? That's what's available now however speeds could get to 100mps.
Should there be a Law?
When they ran the glass through my area, they took some of the cans off the poles and threw them into the ditch. At the end of the street where I live there's a big ol' copper junction laying in six inches of water... guess what the quality of phone service is like in my area for people without FIOS? But I'm so glad to have an alternative to comcast (something I thought was impossible, due to the place I live) I will probably go with the FIOS anyway... it's soooo tempting to choose evil over incompetence...
They do not just rip out your copper. They ask if you want to keep it or not. Yes they generally default to deactivating the copper lines and cutting them, but it was quite common on broadbandreports.com to hear of many folks who said, they were asked, or they simply said to the installer to leave it.
I am guessing that it will require a new president who is not part of the establishment (perhaps paul or obama) who will do the right thing as opposed to what brings their party more money.
I don't know about Obama, but even if Ron Paul were elected, I plan on voting for him (again) if I get the chance, he couldn't really do much. Many of the laws allowing the cablecos and telcos get away with what they do are local laws. He may be able to have the FCC and FTC look into it however while I don't know how the FTC works, the FCC is made up of five members I think with three nominated by the president and the other two are from the other party.
Should there be a Law?
In southern Maine, there are some competitive CLECs. If Verizon were to roll out FiOS and strip the copper, they would not be able to offer the competitive service they can now via DSL.
And they are competitive. One in particular was advertising that it was faster than cable. Time-Warner threatened to sue, basically saying 'no your not!' The CLEC, GWI, said 'bring it on!'.
No suit.
Stripping the copper locks out any of your CLEC competitors. Nice work, if you can make it stick. And more to the point, if it's true and you're bigwigs are denying it, let them walk the plank.
I'm pretty sure that a protracted hearing on subsidies, copper, and deception would make for high drama. it might not change much, but it sure would be fun, for at least a few months.
Then again... my captcha: 'muddied' hehe.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
MOD PARENT UP! Nice work.
but they dug up and removed most of the copper cabling from the neighborhood. They said that with the price of copper, it would be recycled and it would keep it from being stolen since it wasn't being used anymore. It sounded suspicious to me, but I stood in what was then my front yard and watched them do it.
The copper may of been taken out to prevent competition but it's still a good idea to recycle the copper. As for whether it was taken out for anticompetitive reasons, I don't see how. I may be wrong but I think they only need to be open if they use the copper, if they don't then no one can use it.
FalconShould there be a Law?
In my case, they cut from the demarc to the telephone pole (as the rest of the block is mostly Cu.
The Cu end of the Fibre-Cu interface plugged into the old plug in my demarc box.
So, the old demarc (aka telco box) had screws which coupled the wire to a RJ-45(?, I forget which standard is Ether and which one is telco, but you get the idea) male plug. This male plug then went into a 1st female plug in the telco box. My house wiring terminated as a male RJ-45 plug which went into a 2nd female plug in the telco box. There is some switch which only connects the 1st & 2nd plug when the box is closed (as I found out when re-wiring the house and testing my new phone wires).
The Fibre-Cu interface has a male Cu RJ-45 that then plugs into the 1st female plug in the telco box.
Ideally, they would place the back-up supply directly across the wall from the Fibre-Cu interface (think sandwich with the wall in the middle). They punch a hole through the wall for the cord for the back-up to the Fibre-Cu. Once again, ideally all of this would be in your garage.
In my 1935 no-garage house, we had to do some finagling (which I directed).
And, yes they told me ahead of time that they were cutting the Cu.
I would mark you as a moron and a troll but unfortunately I've already hit the 200 entry limit on Slashdot relationships thanks to your fellow morons and trolls.
I've gotten plenty of those cardboard advertisements for Verizon FIOS in the mail. They normally go in the trash. From my experience, the mom-and-pop DSL ISPs offer far better terms of service than the Internet service provided by Verizon FIOS. With my DSL provider I get a static subnet, and can host services without violating anything. If you want to use FIOS you basically give up that right, and are stuck with VZ as your ISP. Unless VZ has a FIOS-based internet service with a TOS comparable to my current ISP, I have absolutely no reason to switch. Internet access via DSL is quick enough for me, and, combined with satellite (DishNet) for TV, I get a relatively complete solution.
I called Verizon tech support for clarification about FIOS installation several months back. I was concerned that if the power went out, the phone would go dead in a few hours. (I don't have a backup generator or any plans to get one.) Verizon said all the phone lines in the house had to be switched over to fiber, so I declined to have it installed at that time, which was a shame because I had waited eagerly for several months till it became available in my area. I just called back 3 weeks ago, and their story had changed. Now, only the line getting FIOS has to be wwitched. So I guess I'll be getting fiber.
"If we cut the copper John we never have to worry about losing our job!"
Doubtable. More likely, it was "if we cut the copper, we can attach it to the fiber and use it to pull the new links through." It falls pretty well within the old adage of not attributing to malicious intent what can be explained by simple laziness.
When I had my FiOS installed I left the tech out side to run the fiber from the poll in the ally. I actually expected them to remove the copper. When I went out to check the progress I noticed that he had left both copper runs in place. I asked if he was going to be removing them and his response was that they are NOT supposed to since they (Verizon) are required to leave in place for other services to be leased over. That was not the response I was expecting. I guess that is not the norm, too bad.
....Covad DSL and Cavalier for both Phone and DSL, I can truthfully say that Verizon is doing folks a favor.
I know this is not the point, but there it is.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's Verizon's copper. They can do anything they damn well please with the stuff. They're not "preventing" competitors from competing -- said competitors can always make the same capital investment Verizon (or rather its predecessor telcos) did and lay copper down the street.
No, a competitor can't simply lay down more copper. In most places the incumbent has exclusive access to use the Right of Way for a given purpose. In the case of the telcos, only the incumbent has the right to have telephone landlines lain down. Even if you had a billion dollars and could afford to put in cables or fiber the only way you would be allowed to is if you buy off the politicians.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I'm near ASU in Phoenix. Just like you, all I can get is IDSL for very similar reasons.
It sucks ass and it's tempting me to move to Japan.
I'm not kidding, either.
My fiber comes in on the opposite side of my property than my copper, and the Verizon tech didn't even walk to that side of the house. I still have copper into the house. Heck, there might even be an active POTS jack left...I have a habit of removing them when I remodel rooms. The only cable cut here is the cable, and that was by me getting a little to vigorous with a shovel while pulling a tree. I think the copper cut depends on your installer. That, and an 8 foot wide concrete slab.
--------- Never ask a geek why, unles you REALLY want to know.
It took me 3 weeks of fighting with Verizon (who insisted on taking 2 days to make a service appointment window, and insisted that they be 8a-7p) and my DSL provider (who was horribly frustrated by their inability to get Verizon to simply run a clean *bleeping* loop) to get things back up and running.
-Cheetah
Regarding the hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet for Verizon. I worked on the marketing campaign for Verizon FiOS in the field. I have reason to believe Thomas Tauke lied in court. We were told that they (verizon) would cut the copper line and that customers would not be able to receive copper service. We were also told not to inform customers of this. Instead we were told to tell them that once they recieved fiber service they would no longer want copper or need the copper line.
Don't be too excited by Utopia. As a recent ex-resident of Murray, Utah I discovered that the only people who really get to participate are those in low density housing. Eg, a house or duplex, but not a triplex or apartment building with more than two units. Which is kind of funny since you get a disproportionate amount of sale tax from apartment dwellers per square foot of land.
That doesn't make sense. Higher densities reduce costs.
FalconShould there be a Law?
who cares if telcos are turning off an obsolete technology in favor of a more advanced one? This idea that telcos should have to share their infrastructure with 'competitors' who have not invested in said infrastructure is absurd.
As long as the telco who invests in the infrastructure wants to turn it off they have every right to do so as long as they are complying with regulations to continue providing telco services.
Switching from the old to the new and turning off the old to save costs isn't anti competitive, it's progress.
Does anyone honestly think that if Verizon were forced to unbundle THEIR fiber loops, it would be spending 24 Billion (with a "B") over the next 5 years to deploy fiber across the country?
Would you put your retirement money in Verizon's stock if they did that?
If you were running your own business, would you invest money into something that would benefit your competition? Why aren't Cable companies forced to unbundle their loops?
Deploying fiber is VERY expensive, and since we, the taxpayers, are not paying for it in the form of government subsidies (as they did in South Korea, for example), then why should Verizon be penalized for trying to run their businees as they fit?
Does anyone have suggestions for how to deal with Verizon or other phone companies who want to get rid of the copper? Any idea how to talk to them in such a way that they'll actually leave it alone and usable?
...
Note that just getting them to leave the copper from the pole to your house isn't necessarily enough. In other discussions of this, people have reported that the wires were left intact, but the copper wires were removed past the poles (probably after the last house on a block was converted to fibre). If you want to revert to copper for some reason, it won't do you much good if the copper stops at the pole and there's no connectivity to the POTS system.
So is there a way for a customer to force them to leave the POTS system intact and usable? Or can they legally just shut it down after the last house in a block has fibre?
At our house, we have a funny reverse situation: A few years ago, when we decided to get DSL over the phone line, they said they had to replace the wire to the house, and they did so. But the old wire is still there, dangling from the attachment point under the roof, and lying in a coil on the ground. I mentioned this to their CS people a couple of times, they said they'd do something about it, and nobody ever showed up. I checked, and my suspicion was correct: That useless wire is owned by Verizon, it's outside my house, and it's illegal for me to do anything with it. Not that it really matters, since it isn't electrified, but leaving old wires dangling and/or coiled on the ground somehow doesn't seem like a Best Practice
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Fiber is paid for by the telcos, not the gov't so is not a tariffed service. While Verizon MUST lease copper to competitors, it isn't compelled to lease fiber access. Verizon cutting the copper is effectively cutting off any competition that was not a Baby Bell in a past life.
You may want to correct this statement. The government has and does subsidize fiber. The fiber-to-the-home project is funded through the Agriculture Department's Rural Utilities Service (RUS). Adam Golodner, deputy administrator of the RUS says: "We do encourage the development of technology that would bring broad band to the home at reasonable cost to meet the growing demand in rural areas by citizens who recognize perhaps more than citizens in urban areas that telecommunications shrinks time, distance, and space." As a percentage of funding of different broadband technologies as of September 2006 RUS (pdf) has spent "30% of approved and funded projects employed fiber-to-the-home technology, 24% employed DSL, 22% wireless (unlicensed), 19% hybrid fiber-coaxial (cable), 3% wireless (licensed), and 2% broadband over powerlines (BPL)."
"Savvy developer wins federal money to wire homelands"
By Kevin Dayton
Advertiser Capitol Bureau Chief
A local politically connected company is eligible for as much as $400 million in federal loans to weave fiber-optic cable through Hawaiian Home Lands on six islands, even though much of the land is undeveloped and lacks roads, water and electricity.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I'd be the first to recognize that the history of the telco industry is insanely complicated, but the solution is to find a way to divide things up that takes both the private and public investments in the infrastructure
Oh, I agree. As I said many tymes I think ownership of some infrastructure should be separate from the services that it provides. For instance I think it might be better for a community to build and own the infrastructure but allow open access for any services the infrastructure can provide. Take cable, a nonprofit, for profit, or the city owns the cable but then it allows different companies to offer cable tv, internet access, phone service, or a Triple Play with all three. I would be able to go to one company for tv, another for phone service, and a third for net access.
Should there be a Law?
or was playing with it and needed a tetanus shot as a result of scraping/cutting themself on it.
Frankly you out to be hopping mad, seriously paranoid about getting sued for allowing an "attractive nuisance" to remain on your property.
When someone else leaves their property on your property that doesn't make it your property but that doesn't mean its illegal for you to take whatever actions are necessary to keep your property safe and visitors to your property safe and (if you've followed correct procedures giving them the opportunity to correct the safety issue first) bill them for those actions.
Like when your neighbor has a tree with a dead branch hanging over your yard.
It appears to be a type of glass threw connection over a single strand for hundreds of households. It is prone to dB loss and don't even think about pulling the specs for the splices and couplers that they are using. It is a great idea and a very telco like implementation.
Sounds like a PON (Passive Optical Network). If it's the one I saw at a tradeshow a couple years back it has:
- Curb to houses on one of the two common infrared frequencies.
- Houses to curb on the other.
- Optical splitters (like a cable network's coaxial splitters) to distribute the outgoing and collect the incoming light.
- The protocol is essentially ethernet, with an inbound scheduling add-on, and the chip is a hardcoded for 256 MAC addresses (which allows for, I think, a max of 254 drops).
I fully understand running more than one user on a single strand of fiber however they are running hundreds with high db loss and compensating with repeaters. I guess if I was going to do it I would have simply ran a larger bundle of fibers to a neighborhood and broke it apart there.
Even if you were close enough to the CO that you didn't need a repeater (which probably means using more expensive single-mode fiber - which in turn would mean using it everywhere due to inventory issues) you'd still need two transceivers per customer, along with a transceiver slot in a line card in a VERY expensive box in VERY expensive rack space.
With a PON you need one transceiver per subscriber, plus three per neighborhood of up to 250 or so subscribers. (Optical splitters are basically a funny splice to fibers, done in a factory, so they're a heck of a lot cheaper than transceivers and active logic to route or switch packets between them.) You also only need one transceiver and the associated panel area at the CO for a neighborhood (or one for many "250ish customer neighborhoods" if there's other routing hardware at the local box where the "neighborhood" headend(s) lives.) And the distances are small enough that cheaper multimode fibers and short-range transceivers are just fine.
Signal strength losses aren't an issue. This is a digital signal, so as long as the strength is adequate for detection it's error free despite a lot of loss. A set of ideal balanced splitters doing a 1->256 split is only about 24db attenuation and real ones aren't that much worse. Drop in the bucket.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I had fios installed 2 months ago in Richmond, VA. I read the original article on slashdot, and asked the fios tech about cutting the copper. He said they didn't do that because there was a 30 day cancel policy and it would be to expensive to come back out. I still have a copper phone line, and fios at the same time. It causes issues for my billing though because they are "mixed media" and I don't get a bundle package.
I was not aware of the unfolding fiber optic monopoly situation, though. This does not bode well for our economic situation in general, nor our 1st amendment. With all television signals going digital in 2008, and Verizon service contracts stipulating that they can "terminate or suspend your services", that pretty much constitutes an information chokehold. And for a limited time, you can get all your services bundled for $30 a month! That means they have you phone, your tv, and your internet.
This is effectively exchanging your bill of rights for "terms of service". But, I guess that's where we were going, anyways, right? Exchanging liberty for security?"Ride the Light"
"I do not avoid women, Mandrake . . . but I do deny them my essence." - Gen. Ripper
Wrong -- almost nowhere is there an exclusive right to use the right of way. In fact, generally by definition the right of way is open to anyone. Beyond rights of way, there are usually also dedicated utility easements which are generally granted to "any firm or corporation, public or private, who provides telephone, telegraph, internet or other communications services" or some similar language
-- "Big Brother is Watching..."
Three months later, grandma passs away and you call Covad.
Have gnu, will travel.
I was one of the first people to have FIOS, being in the 3rd city in the US that was wired (Huntington Beach). I've had it for almost two years now, and I got the same line from them about how they "had" to cut the copper when they put in the fiber. This guy is lying through his teeth.
Couldn't be further from the truth... I and a few others I know, have had our FIOS installed and still have the copper line attached... they didn't touch it or ask to touch it. I wouldn't have minded a bit, I'll NEVER go back to DSL it's crap compared to FIOS!
Yes, it might prevent someone from reconnecting them, because reconnecting is more expensive and time-consuming than disabling (depending on how it was "disabled").
The issue here is about encouraging and supporting competition in a market that is easily monopolizable. Verizon should not have a "right" to disable the copper... they are only the carrier. They did not lay the copper in the first place. That was another company, at another time, operating with government subsidies.
if you dont have DSL, they pull you at the CO so you can never get it so you're forced to go with cable or their fibre.
FUN!
What about the new apartments? At least here in Finland (in my area), all new houses will get fiber only. The fiber is dug down by the telecom, but there are no provisions in the law to lease fiber to competitors. This way, the telecom can actually expand their monopoly, again.
Also, the telecom is charging the apartment owners over 2000 dollars per apartment for the installation. The sales pitch: "This is the only way for you to get Internet access. You think you can get ADSL? Sorry, there is no copper! The cable company? We own them. Ah, maybe Wimax? Mmm, no, a friendly company has the licenses for that. OFDM? No reception."
I have no idea how the regulator is treating fiber in the US but I sure hope they are more awake than here in Europe.
When I got my FIOS installed late last year they asked me if I wanted to move my phone from copper to fiber. I said 'no' and they said 'ok'. Maybe they are doing this in some or many cases, but it certainly isn't a formal policy because they haven't done it to anyone on my street. Yes, my evidence is anecdotal, but so is this story.
Ummm... they are already doing it in Maine
I live in southern maine, I had fios installed, yes, they disconnected my copper wires from the house. Do I care? Not really, if they raise rates too high I will just use cable or cellular for phone/net
Kittery, Kittery Point, York, Eliot have Verizon FIOS.
When I had fiber installed, I had to ask the installers on two occasions to get it removed. At the initial installation of internet and phone service, the installer said he couldn't remove it since it wasn't part of the job order. On the second visit a few weeks later when the television service was added I had to almost beg them to take down the copper. My motives were not so much against having the copper as they were to unclutter the wires running to the front of my house.
Now power and phone come to one spot. I'm happy.
But getting back on topic: What could covad offer on copper that competes with fiber access? Nothing. Is someone going to start offering 100Mbps net access over the legacy copper? Not bloody likely, mate. That copper is dead and ready for recycling. I've even taken down the cable that comcast ran to my house. Comcast's internet services sucks.
Should Verizon allow competitors access to their fiber network? Sure, but charge them an arm and a leg.
With copper at an all time high, and the wires made of copper, it would not surprise me if the techs are doing that so they can sell the wire to a recyclers.
Remember, each penny is worth about $.05 as metal, most of that being the copper shell.
Sure, it is unethical and possibly illegal, but I am surprised that submitter didn't think of that, considering the number of unethical geeks on Slashdot.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Personally, I am happy with the Fios service I've been getting thus far. Unlike all the other services I've had -- including cable modem -- it has been 100% reliable, including the data rates (which I constantly test with BitTorrent! :-) By any definition of the word, Fios 9000 is foolproof and incapable of error. :-) :-) :-)
Considering my past very negative experiences with Verizon, I am extremely pleased to say they seem to have "gotten it right" this time. And if they do screw up in the future, there's always cable and satellite. More expensive and more annoying, but those are my fallbacks. But so far Fios has been -- for me -- the lowest cost, most reliable, and by far the fastest Internet connection service I've ever had. Bar none.
I still think other offers of Verizon sucks, though. No one -- and definitely no company -- is perfect.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
For what it's worth, when I had FIOS installed a few months ago the tech simply disconnected the copper from the box and ran new copper from the ONT. No ripping, no silicone.
They told me that they had to take out the copper wire. Ripped it out and now It's fiber only.
Every time I see you post i think two things
1) it must be nice to be as naive and childish as you
2) there are a lot of stupid people with mod points.
How about you post something other than the tired old spiel that you seem to think we care about but don't?
Better yet, just stop posting, I guarantee you won't be missed.
"Talk to any person who got FIOS in Florida and you'll see they cut the cable."
I live in Florida and no they didn't.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
It's short for demarcation, meaning a physical point marking the legal boundary between the telephone company's wiring and customer's wiring.
It was always called a demarc. It's only recently that phone companies changed the name to Network Interface Device - a far less descriptive name probably chosen for some marketing reason.
My water and sewer system, and the system in all the places I've lived, work pretty darned well. I'd be happy with management like that.
Then you don't follow water and sewer politics very closely. It may work, but nowhere near any kind of efficiency and there's always someone gaming the system. You and I generally accept/ignore the inefficiency.
Research William Mulholland and the cronies that kept him in power. It's probably the most well documented case of water politics.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I have CavTel POTS over Verizon-owned copper. I'm the only customer at the cable end which had only one working coper pair.
Last year, when Verizon installed the FiOS underground cable for the neighborhood, they cut the underground copper cable. I have been on a temporary copper drop ever since and Verizon won't repair the copper underground cable because I'm 1) not their customer, 2) using POTS and 3) unwilling to switch to FiOS. That this violates the Virginia SCC regulations appears to be unimportant to them. Right now, the temporary drop is wrapped around the Cox Cable line (another violation). If and when Cox Cable discovers this, they will cut the temporary drop and I will be without telephone service unless I purchase it from Cox Cable or Verizon FiOS. In short, Verizon has neglected their regulatory obligation to improve their bottom line and I get screwed in the process.
Isn't that the reason these utilities are supposed to be regulated for the public good?
A few FIOS people in my office have their POTS but that's because they told Verizon they have alarm systems that use POTS to call the police. By law, this line cannot be cut.
... which is why the big boys are hard at work legislating them out of existence.
Pre-1982 pennies (1 cent) weigh 3.11 gm and are 95% copper
currently worth and worth 2.4 cents each for the copper (not 5 cents)
post-1982 cents are copper plated zinc and only contain 2.5% copper and
are currently worth 0.8 cents for the copper (much less than 5 cents)
Copper would have to reach $8/Lb for the per-1982 cent to be worth a nickel.
http://www.coinflation.com/
First- Your tax dollars did not pay directly for this infrastructure. What happened was these local goverments wanted phone lines and offered tax breaks to built the plant. Same as railroads. CLEC's (competition) is still free to use all existing copper plant but......
Second- The copepr that is being removed is the drop wires and N Interface on home that IS owned by the phone company. Competition mearly has to hire some techs that can climp a pole and trow out a new drop wire and install a NI... just like the phone company had to do. The copper feeds are still in place.
Why wouldnt the phone company have the right to reclaim what they own. Does comcast not have a right to take back the cable box if you switch to WoW?
Way too much bashing on Telcos cause the are the big boys. Makes a bigger target. Its almost a national past time to shoot for the biggest targets always. Apple anyone....
Its a damn shame no one can show any amount of respect for at&t who gave the friggin world most of this technology in the first place. Or is it just because its American that its nice to bash it? Since every other comment in all stories has a "But in Europe..." comment.
With the small lot sizes that we have these days, and even smaller front yards, Verizon decided to put their box quite deep inside my property.
The box is underground but covered by a rather large lid (2'x3'). So now I have to deal with this eye sore literally in the middle of my front yard.
They could have done better, but they did all this without any notice. And guess what, I can't do anything about it. Verizon has no requirement to notify what they will actually do to your yard before they do so.
Have spoken to Verizon, the Contractor who did the actual work and the County as well. Till they are in the easement area, Verizon can do this. Looks like the easement area covers about 2/3rd of my front yard. So I have to just deal with this.
Don't know how to explain what my front yard looks like now... It has everything - the Cable company box, the sewer, the phone box, the verizon box and the list goes on.
I got a letter in the mail the other day telling me that my FiOs was going up. I called in, and talked to someone. It seems that my 2 year contract was ending, and I needed to renew. I looked online, and asked for the cheapest FiOs I could get.
The lady said, that is only if you have a voice line with Verizon. I told her that I did. After some clicking, she told me I was a "Mixed Media" house. Meaning that....
When I called up Verizon to get FiOs, they told me I couldn't get it. If you punched in my phone number, I was not on the list. But all my neighbors were. I actually talked to someone that was one step away from their maps department. Turns out their maps were wrong. They could give me FiOs, but I would have to pay for it on a credit card, and not my phone line (good thing too).
So that meant, that I got FiOs, but I kept my Pots line (this was 2 years ago, long before I knew of them cutting Pots lines).
So then a few weeks ago, I am told I have Mixed Media. I can only get that price if I convert my phone over to FiOs. Knowing they would come out and snip the copper (and because I like having phone service (i.e. 911) during extended power outages, I told her no.
She said that my bill would go up. Then she said something amazing. She said that Verizon won't even put in FiOs in my area, if you don't agree to have your copper cut. They said they won't do it.
Oh, and the extra monthly charge was because they now have to support 2 networks.
Please.
FiOs is good service, but cutting my copper seems silly. Especially when they install that UPS inside your home to let you know you will be able to use your phone when the power goes out. Yeah for all of what.. 3 hours?
--A Coward (Not sure if Verizon has the same "Comment on our service, and we'll drop you" policy like AT&T)
This is in the Virginia Area
Much of the home security systems (ADT, Slomin etc) use the copper cable for alerts - thanks to an age old dual line capability in the copper lines. Would this disconnection terminate the copper connection for the security company too?
Its ridiculous to say that the copper needs to be cut to facilitate the moving of the POTS line to FIOS
They port the number - its all done in the PSTN vapor
That's just some lameass line of bullcrap the feed to the clueless consumer
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
This kind of thing goes on in the telephony business all the time, even if it is never an official policy.
Example: I had Comcast cable for net access, and Dish Network for the comedy channel (heheh). I discovered that if I got basic cable tv service, Comcast would automatically upgrade my internet speed to the highest possible. Cost of basic cable? $15/month. Discount with existing internet service? $10/mo. Cost to get much faster porn downloads, um, internet access? $5/month.
So, I ordered basic cable, the installer showed up, and while I wasnt looking, unplugged my satellite cable, and ran the analog cable tv signal over those wires. I said, uh, what are you doing? Putting in your service, sir. Yeah, well, there's nothing in your order about disrupting other services. Drill a hole, dammit!
The guy knew exactly what he was doing. After I got all that sorted out, I unplugged my basic cable (dont use it), called and complained to the office about the guy's conduct, and they removed the install fee from my bill. Bastards.
I got rid of my copper 4 years ago, along with Verison
All I have is my cell. I actually took the interface off my house and
handed it to a tech a few weeks ago. He thought I was nuts.
I told him I did not need it and it was in the way.
No I don't need copper, and I am regular enough to not need fiber...
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
http://energycommerce.house.gov/cmte_mtgs/110-ti-hrg.100207.DigFuture.Part6.shtml
for the VZ witness denying they cut down copper; followed by another witness saying "yes they do..."
The POTS->fiber telephone migration is clearly stated on their website, but you do have to read everything installation entails to find it. Duh, caveat emptor, what else is new.
They do not, however, give you the option to migrate or not. And the battery backup is only good for a couple hours at best. After that, no more emergency calls(!). I'd prefer to not migrate for that reason alone as I'm dubious that the cell phone network will be useable at all if a major event happens to knock power out for more than a few hours.
Matrix-like hard line scarcity, here we come :)
I believe Mr Taukie thinks he is telling the truth as my years at Verizon showed me if nothing else, it is a communications company that can't communicate. Ask anyone who has worked for Verizon more than a month and they will agree with you. There is even documentation, which I am sure is being hastily deleted from servers as we speak, that states to remove the copper drop to the customer premesis before leaving the jobsite. That being said if the customer doesn't want it done, they won't do it and in some cases it never gets done anyway. If you want to know how a war is going, u never ask the Generals (Directors, VP's) because they will always say the war is going well and according to schedule, you ask the soldiers.
I just got Fios installed last week. Having read about copper being cut on /. before, I asked about it. I was told that if I wanted the copper removed, I'd have to make a separate appointment - that they don't so that. I doubt I'll be making that appointment any time soon, so the cable is still attached to the pole and my house.
Whatever insight your post had, I reverted to zero upon reading you call it a "Triple Play" with a straight face.
Why? What's wrong with "Triple Play"? I first heard it in I believe an article in IEEE's "Spectrum" a few years back. Lately around here ComCast has been advertising it's Triple Play services.
Now I'm not advocating it, I only stated if an entity wanted to offer it in Utopia Utah they could. As for me, I don't have it and I doubt I ever will. While my cable and net access is provided by ComCast, my ISP is Earthlink. Also I don't have landline phone service, the only phone I have is a cell phone, and it's cheaper.
FalconShould there be a Law?
So I have a question about the complain of removing copper. Previously, people have argued that the infrastructure in the US are so old (mostly copper), that it'd take a fortune to replace them with fiber. Other country don't have this headache because ironically, they weren't technically advanced than us before, so they didn't have all these copper they have to dig up. So people on /. are complaining how we are falling behind in broadband connectivity.
Fair enough. But if fiber is the future. And suppose digging up and selling the copper can offset the some of the cost for a company to lay the fiber...is it really fair to complain about a temporary lost of service (assuming of course that once the fibers are lays, you can get digital phone/tv//internet). There is the issue of monopoly for the company that lays the fiber, but that's another problem. Did I completely misunderstand the issue here??
The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't