Hellgate Beta's In-Game Ads Raise Eyebrows

ari wins writes "IGN.com has up a post discussing the new EA/Flagship game Hellgate: London, and the in-game advertisements it includes to facilitate targeted marketing. Though ads in games aren't exactly new, some Beta testers are objecting to their apparently off-putting presence. Users have also noted that accepting the game's EULA means you submit to the collection of 'technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware'."

Comments

This CAN be stopped

[dynamo]

Now that there's a game out there with targeted marketing, the best way to take it down as well as the financial motivation to do it again is simple (but takes a lot of help):

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability, and it would be attributed to targeting issue. Enough people wasting enough time of enough computer stores, and computer stores would be best off not carrying it.

Then the investors / decision makers who committed to this sickness get discliplined / lose money, and new investors get scared to do this again.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you return a video game anymore?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

Not very easily.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[suv4x4]

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability, and it would be attributed to targeting issue. Enough people wasting enough time of enough computer stores, and computer stores would be best off not carrying it.

Two things:

1. Astroturf does not feel like real grass. Hell, it doesn't look like real grass. Don't Astroturf.

2. You forgot something: denial. Hell, it can't be the ads, right? It must be the game is bad, despite all those gamers craving to see the targeted ads.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[bmo]

And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the game shop/software dealer wherever you are, just walk in say "Dude, You can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant." return the game, and walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's just weird. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they'll refund the money really fast just to get 'em out the door. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin' a bar of Alice's Restaurant, returnin' a game and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in, returnin' a game, singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Bad-Software Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.

--
BMO

Re:This CAN be stopped

[CrazyJim1]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

It's still our world, he's just thinking its the late 80's or early 90's when the stores did this. I once even bought a game at Electronic's Boutique then when they wouldn't take it back, I took it back to Babbages and they were cool with it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Cheapy]

...or you could just not buy it and send an e-mail explaining why.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[pla]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

The law generally trumps "store policy"... Though you may need to sue to get your $50 back (most companies won't even show up in small claims court, practically a slam-dunk).

Also, many states have a VERY useful law relating to this, usually called something like "Buyer's remorse". They don't always apply to such low-priced items, though, so do your homework before you waste your money.

Finally, never forget the power of "making a scene". If you loudly (but not threateningly!) make a fuss over them refusing to take something back (best to wait for the busiest, most crowded part of the day), they'll usually do what you want just to get rid of you.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[koko775]

Dollars speak louder than words. A frustrated consumer matters more than a frustrated potential (or non-) customer.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[UncleTogie]

Return a video game? Where is the dream world you're writing from?

It's still our world, he's just thinking its the late 80's or early 90's when the stores did this.

He speaks truly. I worked at a mall-based EB back around '88. Back at that time, EB also sold computers, mainly AST and Amstrad brands. We had a shrink-wrap setup in the back, and the policy at the time was to LET customers "try" the software on our demo PCs.

If they saw what they liked, they bought the game and all was well. If not, we took it to the back, and rewrapped and repriced it. Thinking back, I'm not sure if such was legal; if the game has been installed, even on a demo PC, it's not "new", is it? IANAL, so I couldn't tell you...

So yes, Virginia, there WAS a Santa Claus... Now all you get to demo is console games, unless you go to a gaming cybercafe.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[buswolley]

Don't open the box dummy. Then it is easy to return.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[arivanov]

In countries that do not have suitable retail legislation (UK) you should buy via mail order or over the Internet. That gives you a 14 days by law to decide if you want to shovel the item back up the retailer's backside. Similar laws apply in most of the EU as a part of the distance selling regulations.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[JackMeyhoff]

Uhh NO, don't even touch it. This way they get the message VERY QUICKLY, it flops at the start gate.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[KDR_11k]

The EULA is between you and the publisher, not you and the store. If the store says "we don't take returns" then the EULA can't do jack shit about it. You could try getting the publisher to refund you or you could contest the EULA in court somehow because you weren't presented the contract before purchase and won't get your money back once you read the contract. Not sure that'd work though.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[bepe86]

Well, if we do that, and it results in bad sales, the distributor is just going to blame piracy, as always...

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Shritish]

Why though? You do realize they're offering a free service as well, free accounts for people to sign into and use? Go read the pricing model they have outlined. Don't lynch them because they have a few ads within, mostly.. I've only ever noticed an nVidia ad and haven't noticed any others. This hardly detracts from the gameplay. I doubt there's a need to be puritanical because these guys have a lot of ground to cover on the likes of World of Warcraft. I honestly wouldn't mind them making some extra money to help further the games progress and improve the development cycle. Stop fearing the ads in games, fear the ones that actually detract from gameplay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellgate:_London#Pricing

Re:This CAN be stopped

[mrsteveman1]

If no one opens the box they will wonder why the hell you bought it in the first place, since the point is to make it look like people got pissed at the ads.....

Re:This CAN be stopped

[KDR_11k]

The EU also has data protection laws, I wonder if an EULA is legally allowed to require granting permission to collecting your data. If not they would be in breach of the law as they wouldn't have agreement from you.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[semicolon_underscore]

...or you could just not buy it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[PrescriptionWarning]

or after playing the demo, you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not.

and to be quite honest after playing the demo, there was really no reason to buy the game. Its not groundbreaking in any way, and I couldn't help but feel bored while playing the demo.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Jim Hall]

My god, man .. where would we find the time to do that?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Belial6]

Putting previously purchased software that looks new back on the shelf is no different than a clothing store putting a returned pair of pants back on the shelf. Or for that matter, a pair of pants that was taken into a changing room and tried on. There is obviously a gray area in retail concerning what is new and what is used.

As long as everyone remembers that my shade of gray is better than their shade of gray, everything will be ok though.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Ron_Fitzgerald]

I agree with that. Many publishers blame low sales volume on piracy. When sales don't hit their projected numbers, people must be stealing.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[symbolic]

If it's unopened, I'd be surprised if there were any objection to its return. There's no rule that says you have to play it in order to be completely turned off by this scheme...it could be something as simple as having read about it in a forum, and deciding that this it's far too invasive for your taste.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Derosian]

The majority of stores have a no software return policy, even if the box is unopened.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Slashcrap]

Who is he astroturfing for? Or could it be you... Well, if we were to go through with his nutjob scheme it would artificially boost the sales figures of the game, increasing its chart position and thereby causing more people to buy it. On the other hand he may just be really, really stupid and unable to foresee this unintended side effect.

So it could be astroturfing, massive stupidity or something else. But this is Slashdot and you won't find many posts that aren't covered by the first two options.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Most states have laws that say stores have to accept returns for a certain time period after the sale of the product. State laws > Store Policy.

Best Buy tried to stop me from returning a game by saying it was a violation of copyright law, so I acquired a copy of the most recent revision and brought it in with me. The manager realized that fucking with a customer who knows that the law is on their side is a BAD idea (at least in the state of Massachusetts) and my game was returned for a full refund.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Your retail store violated many laws, going by what you've just said. It's a wonder that the State Attorney General wasn't visiting you on a weekly basis.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

You only noticed an nVidia ad? Try launching the game.

I know that before I can play the demo for UT3 I have to see ads for the EXACT HARDWARE I ALREADY OWN. Core 2 Duo? Check. nVidia? Got it. Oh, an ad for the company that made the game that I just bought? Yeah, I ALREADY PAID FOR THE GAME. DON'T ADVERTISE IT TO ME!

EA is the worst with this. In their latest games they have ads for other games. And the first day Madden 08 was out I installed and launched it, I was greeted with an alert that I should check out Madden 09 if I want to play football online next year.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[PopeRatzo]

Buy it, wait a week or so, and return it. Then buy it somewhere else, wait a week or so, and return it. If just 5000 people were to do this 5 times each, it could destroy the percieved marketability

You probably will only get a store credit, but if you're going to buy a game anyway, just do this before you get the game you really want.

At least dynamo is trying to give some thought to showing a little Resistance to the companies that are misusing us.

It's time for a little pushback.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[NoodleSlayer]

The point of the game company's splash at the beginning of the game is more for brand recognition. Believe it or not, there's people out there who would have no clue who makes the game they play without it. I see it more as the credits at the beginning of the movie. That has been going on for ages and is quite different then in-game advertising.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Jugalator]

Hmm, I'm not sure I get this. Do you prefer untargeted marketing over targeted marketing?

I'm sure *I* prefer ads on computer retailers when being on Gmail rather than lady perfumes.

Sure, one can argue that it's not the *ads* you want, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that the ads in HGL doesn't seem intrusive. They're pretty tastefully done and doesn't stand out from the environment. I'd argue that they add to realism, a bit like how the ads in Bladerunner did.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, ads could be interesting. You're down to one Health point or somesuch, and the game interrupts with "Tired of killing and being killed? Then it's a good time for a nice refreshing Coke (tm)!"

Ooops. We just distracted you and your head got torn off by the monster? We bad, we bad.

Fritz Leiber once wrote an SF story about mobile soft-drink salesrobots. In it, a city gets nuked and the robots survive, tooling up to dying burned people in the streets and and cadging them to buy a can of soda.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[ericartman]

Heck I bought LoTr a few months ago, got home and the cd was missing, returned it to WalMart and got a new one no problem. I never bitch about WalMart, it's always been more than fair about these sort of things. Do feel flames a coming?

Cart

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Anonymous Coward]

The merchant has sold you something which, without a clear warning about the contents of the EULA, is not fit for its designated purpose. The merchant can sort it out with the publisher. If the customer can't use the product due to a hidden limitation, the store will have to give a refund.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[ehrichweiss]

Finally, never forget the power of "making a scene". If you loudly (but not threateningly!) make a fuss over them refusing to take something back (best to wait for the busiest, most crowded part of the day), they'll usually do what you want just to get rid of you.

I was at Wal-mart a year or so ago and had to wait the clerk to get a stack of $10 bills from one of the other employees. While waiting she said that I should demand $20 instead of $10 and I kinda laughed and then she turned to me and said that she wasn't kidding, that if I raised a big enough of a fuss, they'd give me $20 even if they had 150 witnesses to the contrary because apparently in the employee break room or the like there is a sign that says something to the effect of "Each Wal-mart customer is worth $125,000 over their lifetime so don't fuck it up by making them want to shop at K-mart"...or words to that effect. I might not like what Walmart has done to some smaller communities but at least that's *real* customer service.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[cheater512]

In Australia the return laws are extremely tough on the store.
"We dont take returns" signs are actually illegal.

The store *must* accept a return if certain criteria is met.

Of course this probably isnt true in the USA but I think civilized nations (e.g. Europe and Canada) have similar laws.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[mrmeval]

There is a three day opt out of any contract in the US. I'm not sure how you go about doing it but I'd suspect a properly certified letter would do. If the store refuses the return then you can either charge back the credit card or sue them in small claims court.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[icedcool]

MOD PARENT UP! You acquired the most recent revision of what? What legislation would it be called? Business policy Legislation? I have to research this so that I can do the same.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[aichpvee]

If it isn't opened there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[basscomm]

Don't open the box dummy. Then it is easy to return.

Yeah, good luck with that. Every Gamestop I've ever been to has the boxes on the shelves and the games in the drawer behind the register. I'm not sure how I can return it to them unopened when I can't even buy it unopened.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Nullav]

Or you could just avoid buying it in the first place. (Really, it's quite a slap in the face to deal with ads in something you paid for.)

Re:This CAN be stopped

[jack455]

1. Astroturf does not feel like real grass. Hell, it doesn't look like real grass. Don't Astroturf. Astroturfingrefers to marketing tactics and PR campaigns. I see no reason to believe that this post was from a rival gaming company, especially due to the likelihood that the GP believes this would discourage all use of in-game ads. However I share your skepticism of its potential efficacy.

To date none of the major labels apparently see that they sabotaged DVDAudio and SACD by disabling the hires digital output.

Game companies are probably no more intelligent and are no more likely to correctly interpret the results of their actions.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Oktober Sunset]

Wait for it...

Wait for it...

Wallmart So Evil Exploit Workers Minimum Wage Sweatshop Labour Censor Music Small Business Bankrupt Heart Of America Small Town Anti Union Child Labour Climate Change Worse Than Hitler Kicked A Puppy Ate A Baby Spat In Your Salad Just Plain Evil Fat Cat Corporate Capitalist Pigs.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Andrew Kismet]

Your sig actually flowed on quite nicely from that rant.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[aafiske]

That was horrible. If you want to end bad games and stuff you got to sing loud.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[mog007]

I work at Wal-Mart, and the only "sign" in the back of the store that would qualify is a big poster that has Sam Walton's picture on it, and in big letters it has the words "The Boss" or something along those lines, then the text under the title goes on to explain how important the customers are, blah blah blah.

Also, in retail environments such as this, it's considered better for a cashier to be short in their register than having too much. Extra money in the register means a customer got fucked over, and that's a big no-no.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[ekhben]

Or they'd say that the game sucked, and the only thing that kept them from posting a record loss was the fact that they pre-sold advertising space.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Xanius]

Now that there is? Someone seems to have forgotten BF 2142, they have the exact same thing.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[pla]

Hold on, what law does refusing to serve someone violate?

You can refuse to serve someone before the sale.

After you've sold something, you (or rather, the store) take on all the obligations that entails under local, state, and federal law.



if they expressly retract the invitation for you to enter their premises (e.g. by refusing to serve you and asking you to leave) you are trespassing.

Okay, so at exactly what point does the seller's obligation to honor their side of the transaction end? In stores where you pay and then claim the product (some CompUSAs do that for more expensive items), can they take your money then not let you leave the store with the product, having you hauled away for trespassing if you refuse to leave empty-handed?

If not, how does this differ from failing to honor state law regarding the buyer's right to return product under certain conditions?



Also, if you return the game because of the ads, then you've agreed to the license agreement which means you cannot return it on those grounds.

Um... What? How does saying "no" to the EULA mean you've agreed to it?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Agelmar]

Yeah, because I always read forums AFTER I buy something and BEFORE I rip open the box. Come on, when was the last time you bought something, and then did research on it? Me, I figure out whether I want something or not (may involve research, may involve impulses), buy it, and then immediately rip it open and install it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Tim Browse]

In fact, we would just point to the big sign on the wall that said "No returns on open software" and asked them to leave

See, that's why I like UK consumer laws. Those signs are flat out illegal here :-)

Re:This CAN be stopped

[kiwipeso]

Really? In NZ all CDs and DVDs aren't returnable, unless the actual disc has a scratch, due to copyright restrictions.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Architect_sasyr]

Not so easy out here in Australia, especially with the hype generated by the media-whores about copyright infringement. A lot of stores make it policy not to take items back.

Funnily enough I have the least trouble with the K-Mart's and many of the 'smaller' chains out here. I guess the major stores don't care about the customer and only about the bottom line.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Jonny_eh]

I had a cheap friend that would open the box from the side (yes, the side), take the game out, play it, then put it back in and return it.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[ortholattice]

I think the GP meant the most recent version of copyright law, although I think it might be somewhat thick if it is printed out (not sure).

The exact same thing happened to me twice at Circuit City over the years - I was told I couldn't return a video game that was opened because it would violate copyright law. I could only exchange it for the same product if it was defective - a lot of good that would do, since the problem was a bug that prevented it from installing on my computer in one case, and it crashed constantly in the other case.

Well, in both of these cases, amazingly, it turned out the video game was no longer in stock, so it couldn't be exchanged, and I did get my money back.

The copyright ignorance being spread by these employees is appalling - I'm sure they were told to say that by management, and they probably believe it themselves. At the time I almost regretted that I lucked out by the games not being in stock, since they raised my ire and I was getting ready to educate them.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[SP33doh]

that is the coolest thing I have read today, boycott 2.0
though, like boycotts, with the massive market of today it's impossible to make even a blip on the radar.
and even if it were effective, there's still digital distribution :/

as an aside, (just in general to the discussion under this parent) to my knowledge most retailers let you return unopened software, don't they?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Snaller]

Wow, I wonder what those who mod this up were smoking.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[DarkAxi0m]

The trouble is that they then play the, "you've changed you mind card" and get away with it. I often tell people to get in the habit of asking for the manager, even if there not in the store and you have to speak to them on the phone. esp if something does not seem right. Most people don't seem to care about it until its too late.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Cheapy]

True, you could. That's what I had originally typed in, but then I realized that they wouldn't know specifically why you didn't buy it.

By e-mailing, you are no longer part of the "presumably not interested in the game at all" group, but are in the "interested, but not buying specifically due to in-game ads" group.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

You forgot something: denial.

It's not denial. It's a genuine lack of communication between the company and you. If you want to make an impression, start writing letters to the company, and encourage others to do the same. Because the internet is relatively anonymous, it's easier to spam your opinions until they are completely unrepresentative of gamers in general. EA knows this, and consequently won't pay as much attention to forums and emails.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[DeadChobi]

You realise that Baldur's Gate had advertising for other games from the same company in it, right? This was waaaaaay back in the day, before most people even had broadband internet. As I recall most games from that era had trailers for other games. Hell, I recall that a number of multiplayer games had AOL trials bundled with them. Look on the backs of just about any PSX game and you'll see ads for games from the same publisher. There were ads inside manuals.

What's new about what you're describing?

The only thing that would be classifiable as new about this would be if the publisher were selling ads on billboards inside the game.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Domstersch]

Rubbish. That's store policy that has nothing to do with copyright law. Really. Go read the Copyright Act.

Your rights are protected under the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993, meaning you are entitled to a refund, replacement or repair if the product is defective, not fit for the intended purpose, or not in merchantable condition. It doesn't have to be a physical problem with the disk, it doesn't matter if you've used the product, and it doesn't matter if the store has a policy saying otherwise (your right to a remedy is inalienable). Copyright just doesn't enter into the equation, despite those signs you see around the place.

It's a shame more New Zealanders aren't aware of their rights under the CGA; it's one of the best pieces of legislation we have.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[icedcool]

What chapter would apply to that?
I'm interested in learning more about this, because as you say the way they would have you believe it is that you can't return any opened software.

So this is wrong?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[JackieBrown]

Tell them that you don't feel comfortable buying their copy because of copy protection laws.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[cheater512]

Thats certainly not the case in Australia.
The same rules apply regardless of the item: whether its a Ferrari or a CD.

Of course its up to the store if you just change your mind.
The law only protects you when your not at fault.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[halcyon1234]

OR you can buy the game, and install it in a VM. Craft the VM to be as full of bullshit information as you like. Then next time you play, install it in a VM, and fill it with a completely different set of bullshit information. Play through a rotating series of geographically disperse proxies so that false location information is sent. If everyone choked them with worthless marketing data, they'll either stop or go bankrupt trying to market birth control pill ice cream to male Eskimos.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Achromatic1978]

*begin monotonic drone pretending to be melodious in-tune singing:

"Join us now and share the software. You'll be free, hackers, you'll be free."

Re:This CAN be stopped

[NPN_Transistor]

Heck I bought LoTr a few months ago, got home and the cd was missing, returned it to WalMart and got a new one no problem. I never bitch about WalMart, it's always been more than fair about these sort of things. Do feel flames a coming?

So it seems that there is an easier way to stop this - instead of going returning the game and buying it from somewhere else once a week, you could take the CD out and return it, claiming that the CD was missing!

Re:This CAN be stopped

[FictionPimp]

If you have a VM that fully supports 3d games, I'll pay you 200.00.

Cause then I wouldn't need my windows partition anymore.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[FictionPimp]

Of course by fully support, I mean all the latest and greatest games that run on my pc currently. As far as I know, the best VM's out there only have very basic 3d support.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Pofy]

>If there's an EULA that you have to accept to play it,
>yes, you can return the game if you don't accept it.

Why? Are you refering to some law that gives one that right that covers such EULA?

>That or the EULA is not binding,

The EULA can at most be binding if you agree to it. If you do NOT agree to it, it is of course not binding and doesn't apply. So telling in a EULA (or any other contract) what happens if you do NOT agree to it is quite pointless since it only applies if you agree. (Of course, if some outside law or other agreement applies even if you don't agree, then information about it can of course be valid but a contract offer can't dictate what happens if you do NOT agree to it.)

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Pofy]

>The store *must* accept a return if certain criteria is met.

And what are those criterias?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[dynamo]

Uh, no, i'm not astroturfing.

I like to see the common (wo)man fucking with the corporations who fuck with them as a matter of policy.

As for 'artificially boosting sales figures', who gives a crap - it's still wasting the money of any company compliant in the scheme. They'll figure it out eventually when they look for the money leak..

If they want to sell you a game with targeted ads, the game should be FREE.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[cheater512]

For Queensland (where I am) they are as follows:

* Faulty Goods
* Wrongly Described
* Different from a sample shown
* Doesn't do what its supposed to do.

Other Australian states are very similar.

Its amusing to think of how many Microsoft products you could return if you wanted to be a bastard. ;)
Not to mention if you get a stupid person behind the counter.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Pofy]

But none of them has anything to do with the "don't like the EULA" or similar situation discussed here. Of course, one can always argue about the existance of a EULA to start with that one wasn't aware of is covered about anything you listed :)

Re:This CAN be stopped

[mdwh2]

The EULA is between you and the publisher, not you and the store. If the store says "we don't take returns" then the EULA can't do jack shit about it.

A "we don't take returns" means nothing if they've sold defective goods (i.e., don't do what they claim to do). Otherwise they could get away with selling items that inside had a piece of paper saying "You can't use this unless you pay us loads of money". The fact that the publisher put that paper there is irrelevant - it's no more relevant than if the box was empty, and you claim "That's the publisher who didn't put the CD in the case". The shop selling you that good still has responsibility. At least, in sensible countries.

And I don't need to "contest the EULA in court" anymore than the publisher needs to contest my EULA which reads "By selling me a product, you agree to let me do anything I like with it".

By replying to this post, you agree to agree with everything I say.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[vuffi_raa]

not necessarily- unless the vendor can verify that the game is no longer installed and/or registered, the game, for all intensive purposes is pirated on it's next install (unless it is like the old warcraft and starcraft that came with multiple machine licenses per purchase).
yes it is stupid, but that is the way it works

Re:This CAN be stopped

[C0rinthian]

Besides, why hassle the retailer? It's the game publisher that created the game and decided to insert the advertising, not the retailer. Because the retailer is who the customer interacted with. Customer has a problem with a product, they take it up with the retailer. If the retailer has a problem with a product, they take it up with the publisher.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[C0rinthian]

This isn't insightful. The game is not free. You simply have an option to not pay a monthly subscription fee for it. No matter what, you're paying the stock $50 for the box, and having to deal with adverts after paying for the game is pretty shoddy.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[cheater512]

I believe disagreeing with the EULA is also protected.
I just copy pasted from a pdf.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[Kalriath]

Also, if you return the game because of the ads, then you've
agreed to the license agreement which means you cannot return it
on those grounds.

Um... What? How does saying "no" to the EULA mean you've agreed
to it? I'm only going to cover this one, leaving others with more localised knowledge to handle the "at what point" questions.

In this one, you would have to have seen the ads to make the call to return it based on the ads. To do this, you'd have to install it. To install it, you need to agree to the EULA. Now, you could theoretically return it based on having read the license and seen the small note on it about the information gathering, so you could return it based on not liking that clause, but that's not because of the ads.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[rtechie]

"In fact, we would just point to the big sign on the wall that said "No returns on open software" and asked them to leave."

As others have said, you were probably breaking the law. Most states allow you to return defective merchandise up to 30 days after purchase. Period. In practice, this means that you legally have 30 days to return any merchandise (whether defective or not) because the retailer has to prove the customer broke it, which is near-impossible. So if a retailer insists on not accepting a game unless it's defective, just go out to the parking lot and scratch up the disc real good.

It really pisses me off the game stores like Gamestop make a living ripping off kids.

Re:This CAN be stopped

[ACMENEWSLLC]

>>...or you could just not buy it.

This is why I didn't by EA's BF2142. In game ad's. Seems they learned that lesson, huh?

Re:This CAN be stopped

[symbolic]

If it's unopened, why should you care?

Demo or Beta?

[Gertlex]

I'm not a beta player, and those people are/were under rather heavy NDAs, from what I hear. The demo of the game was released a few days ago, and *that* does indeed have ads in it. (I only noticed an NVidia ad)

Re:Demo or Beta?

[AuMatar]

And? You seem to think those NDAs mean anything- anyone in a guild or two knows all the details of those betas within a week of them coming out. Nobody follows the betas when it comes to friends or guildies, and they leak from there to common knowledge.

Re:Demo or Beta?

[Jugalator]

The NDA was recently removed, so people are free to post stuff on the game now. Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to post a screenshot of the ads here so people know what it's about. I can otherwise just recommend checking out the demo to form an own opinion. Personally I didn't find the ads intrusive at all, and they only appear in stations. I think they add to immersion, because the real world stations also have ads.

Re:Demo or Beta?

[Echo5ive]

NDA is lifted now.

Re:Demo or Beta?

[yar]

I'm in the beta as well. Honestly, I never noticed any ads at all, although apparently they're everywhere. :P
There was some complaining about the ads themselves in the beta forums, but I really didn't see very much. There was a lot more complaining about the intrusiveness of the EULA, which so far is the *only* thing that has bothered me about the game.

This information on the box?

[Romicron]

Does it say anywhere on the box, "WARNING: This game includes in-game advertising and requires live monitoring of computer information?" Or are there massive amounts of consumers that are going to be shocked to discover that their game requires adware? There's a big difference between "Hey, we warned you" and "Turn around and grab your ankles".

Second question: Anyone know how much this kind of live uploading of advertisements would affect online performance?

Re:This information on the box?

[suv4x4]

Second question: Anyone know how much this kind of live uploading of advertisements would affect online performance?

Online gaming: low traffic, low latency.
Advertisements: big latency, big traffic.

They don't step into each other's territory, and you could guess the ads will be cached, and can have lower priority than the multiplayer traffic.

As for the included adware/spyware/drm/rootkits, that has become customary for PC games. Never again would I let a game installer come near my production PC.

I guess that's one reason PC games sell in so low volumes compared to consoles.

Re:This information on the box?

[Dunbal]

and you could guess the ads will be cached

      I hope the advertisers are aware of my fee for storing their ad info on my hard drive. I think $5 a byte should do it.

Re:This information on the box?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no live uploading of advertisements. These advertisements seem to be a part of the game installation, and do not update or change while you play the game (unless they update them, of course, but I'd be surprised after all of the attention this is getting).

Having played the beta for the past week, logging in around 15 hours of play time, I first noticed an advertisement on a subway wall. It looked to be a part of the game world, had a picture with a caption that read, "Book Four coming soon." I wasn't sure at the time if it was a part of the game or an actual advertisement, I mean, I couldn't exactly make out what the picture was supposed to be (even with textures on Very High), but it looked like standard comic book art in dark, muted colors.

The advertisements are standard textures, represented in the game as poster-sized billboards in the subway stations. They're about the size that a poster would be and aren't annoying or even noticeable.

TFA seems a bit sensationalist in how they used the term Adware--as if it's installing an extra program along with the game onto your computer, or there's pop-up windows while you play, or there'll be a giant, flashing, updating advertisement on the screen, etc.--to describe a static texture placed in an area whose real world counterpart is also, filled with advertisements.

That said, I'll have to take a second look and see if I can find any that are annoying.

It's on par with, but still eleven billion times less annoying than the BRODOORODODODODOoo "NVidiaaaaaaaaaa," ads that play when you start up just about any EA or many other publishers' games, at least.

Of course Hellgate will have one of those, too.

Re:This information on the box?

[Jugalator]

Does it say anywhere on the box, "WARNING: This game includes in-game advertising and requires live monitoring of computer information?" Or are there massive amounts of consumers that are going to be shocked to discover that their game requires adware? There's a big difference between "Hey, we warned you" and "Turn around and grab your ankles". You should really see this game to understand what kind of "adware" you're talking about here. It's not of the kind that affects your performance.

Second question: Anyone know how much this kind of live uploading of advertisements would affect online performance? It doesn't upload ads in the first place.

I think you have the concepts confused a bit. The monitoring is there to ease troubleshooting bugs and preventing cheats. The "adware" you're talking about is texture files that interact with your system as much as your JPG files are.

Re:This information on the box?

[lawhack]

G'wan. You mean you think other games don't? In the EU or other civilized countries there are privacy laws, and gratuitous collection or personal data wihtout protectiosn might violate those laws. But in the US, where so many of the game hosts/creators reside? Not bloody likely -- in fact, Second Life, for example, seems to be stepping UP the degree to which they collect ID data -- so they can pass it along to the cops more effectively when asked.

wtf

[wizardforce]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate?

Re:wtf

[Rasit]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate?

Even better, if you dont pay a monthly fee you can only play a gimped character (smaller inventory etc.)

So now we have to pay full price to buy it, pay each month AND get invasive ads?

Re:wtf

[BarneyL]

The same people who pay for their cable/satelite TV subscription and watch adverts during the commercial breaks? Or buy a magazines with adverts in? The model is not entirely new even if I don't believe for a moment that the adverts in games are there "to reduce the sale price" as is claimed by the publishers.

Re:wtf

[DeepHurtn!]

...because the avarice of corporations knows no bounds?

Re:wtf

[maxume]

They expect you to, but you certainly don't have to(I guess you have to if you want access to the game).

Re:wtf

[SeekerDarksteel]

1) Your character is not gimped. You don't get certain online only options like shared stashes, guild creation, or the same number of character slots.

2) Not subscribing does absolutely nothing to the single player. A single player game that is good enough on its own to justify the cost of the box. In addition you get free online play even if you never play another dime. I seriously think that if they offered NO free online play, instead saying you can play single player on your own or pay a subscription for online, that there would be less people pissed off.

3) The subscription replaces having to buy expansions every six months or a year. Look at WoW. $15 a month, plus $50 a year for an expansion, plus no single player. And you don't hear anyone bitching about that.

4) You clearly haven't seen the ads. They are far from invasive. You can play through and never even notice that the ads on the subway walls are for real products. They aren't bright neon signs that scream "BUY COKE, MMM COKE." They're dirty worn down subway ads you'd expect to see in a subway. Only they're for actual products. I don't like the precedence either, but it's definitely not a gamebreaker.

Re:wtf

[wizardforce]

Because you probably wouldn't have bought it if it was $70?

I haven't bought any of their later games anyway. You really think that they would pass on their higher profit margin to the consumer? bwahahaha... that's funny. They are doing this to make money at the cost of privacy and the overall gaming experience, it has nothign to do with offsetting prices. Of course they could still try and offer an ad-free version for say 10$ more...

Re:wtf

[Blakey Rat]

Magazines have been tolerated for decades with this exact model. Cable TV is another example. Hell, that's half the draw of the Superbowl each year.

Re:wtf

[Kazzahdrane]

Your argument is fairly sound, but WoW is a terrible example. Blizzard didn't release an expansion until the game was 2 years old, and look to be only releasing another a year later. Everquest 1/2 are better examples, as they managed to get through many many expansions in addition to charging a monthly fee. I very much doubt the amount of content added regularly to Hellgate will even approach the size of the boxed Burning Crusade expansion for WoW.

Re:wtf

[symes]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it? Who actually puts up with this enough to even make the idea look like something we would tolerate? I absolutely agree 100% with this. I'm, personally, getting utterly sick of having some glossy marketeer's latest gimmick shoved down my throat. This is especially when I find advertising in and on products I buy. Most print magazines are 50% loose pieces of advertising which need recycling before I can even find the contents page, which is buried between a picture of my next car and a picture of my next trophy wife gently caressing my next mobo. I pay for cable tv and yet get bombarded with ads (thank God for the sanctuary of the BBC, though, who are able to offer up ten times the quality for a fraction of the price). Now they think it is totally acceptable to put ads in games? Nutters. I really wish someone would put up a list of online companies which do not advertise - it would be my first port of call for future online shopping.

Re:wtf

[Ron_Fitzgerald]

I wouldn't say cab/sat entirely. When you pay for cable you are paying for content delivery. You are paying for them to get you the shows from the networks that trade the ads for views. But, when you pay for HBO or Showtime for a premium you don't get any ads. Now if you paid for HBO and still received ads there would be a comparison.

Same with your ISP. You are paying in 'internet fee' why should you put up with ads on websites? Because the ISP simply is the transport.

In games however, you are already paying $50 - $60 dollars plus a possible monthly fee for MMORPG. To simply put it..to pay to be advertised is crazy and needs to get put down now before it gets anymore out of hand.

For me I feel that I pay $60 (or whatever Xbox live is) a year and I should not have to see ads for Old Spice, Burger King, Jessica Simpson or whatever. I have already paid for a service, I shouldn't have to keep paying for something that does not return a recurring value.

Re:wtf

[pyrros]

1) I'm sorry, but no shared stash means you are gimped. Did a legendary sword drop for your engineer? Too bad, you can either sell it, or break it down to crafting materials.

2) The single-player is gimped by design. There's no Hellgate equivalent of LAN play, TCP/IP game, or Open Battle.net so unless you're on dialup. Unless you're on dialup, or using cheats, single player in HGL is the "I'm feeling stupid" button.

3) GW is pretty similar to HGL for no monthly fee (although you can choose to buy standalone campaigns/expansions), Dungeon Runners is more or less the same thing as HGL (granted, with lower production values) for half the money, and doesn't cost $50 up front. Compared to WoW, HGL is instance-only outside towns. This is more or less the difference between MMORPGS and D2 clones. Also, in Europe, WOW costs 13 euro/month vs 10 euro for HGL so it feels like an even bigger ripoff.

4) I've seen the ads in the beta, and I think they're fine. I just hope they don't change them to being super-bright after launch.

Re:wtf

[Gernok]

Here's what gets me, you pay for the game itself then you have two options http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellgate:_London#Pricing for multiplayer pricing. One is free, the other you pay $10 a month for. I don't mind the ad's funding the free subscription, but just doesn't smack me as right for a paid subscription.

Re:wtf

[Richard Frost]

If a game costs $50 why the hell should I have to pay $15 a month to play it?

Your response to in-game ads, paraphrased, was my response to MMORPGs. Give in-game ads two years, and every major game publisher will be cramming them down our throats.

Re:wtf

[ZJVavrek]

I'm having trouble understanding point 2. The single-player is gimped because, hey, you can't play with other people? Say what now? It sounds like you're simply biased against a single-player experience. (Which happens to be what I'm looking for in the game. The multiplayer options are a bonus to me.)

And I'm glad to hear that the ads are unobtrusive. I've played the demo through to its 'end' twice and I didn't really notice them in the subway. I was more concerned with the fact that there were giant swirly blue portals.

Re:wtf

[Tim C]

Look at WoW. $15 a month, plus $50 a year for an expansion, plus no single player. And you don't hear anyone bitching about that.

Of course not. Those of us who don't like the idea simply aren't playing the game; I really don't see any point to moaning about it, they're not going to change it if I start.

Re:wtf

[naoursla]

You know that corporations are made of people, right?

Just like soylent green.

Re:wtf

[bearfx]

I am not 100% sure why this is marked interesting. When you pay for cable television or satellite television, you are paying for delivery of the video/audio signal. The cable companies don't produce the shows you watch, and they generally don't have any say in what the various channels show. All they do is maintain their massive and complicated networks to allow that signal into your home. (Please no discussion about their failure to provide - that is a discussion for another day). How about these statements? Why should I pay for that monitor when I already paid the freight charges? Why should I subscribe to that website when I already pay for my Internet Service? Why should I pay for when I already paid for the gas/car/other transportation to get to the store? Ludicrous examples, but that is what you are saying. This story is more closely related to you buying a cell phone, and paying a monthly fee for cell phone service BUT the provider makes you listen to a 30 second commercial before every call is connected. The solution is quite simple - don't buy the game. Just like I do not shop at stores that use "member discount cards", I will not buy a product that FORCES me to watch advertising. I have returned DVD's for a refund because they wouldn't let you skip previes (and yes, I did eventually get the refund, though it took considerable time), and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

Re:wtf

[VGPowerlord]

I don't know about EQ1, but EQ2 is releasing it's fourth expansion just in time for its third anniversary... so an expansion every 9 months or so.

Re:wtf

[pyrros]

In D2 you can use single player characters for multiplayer games. Sure, it's just Open Battle.net, but for the occasional game with people you trust it's great. HGL offers no such option. So yes, HGL single player is missing a feature that D2 single player had.

Re:wtf

[SeekerDarksteel]

Wow released an expansion in January. Guess when the next expansion is coming out. Early next 2008. They've also said that they plan on one a year or so from now on. They added a lot of content between release and BC. How much have they added since BC came out? One 40 man instance that was supposed to be out at the same time as the xpac itself that less than 2% of the WoW population will ever even see.

So in conclusion, ditch the attitude if you can't even get your own fucking facts straight.

(Oh, and btw, phase and toxic grenades no longer bounce. One sticks to walls and the other explodes on contact. So not only is your entire complaint of gameplay on one skill, it's one they're tweaking because ...SURPRISE SURPRISE ITS BETA)

Re:wtf

[dashood]

No one would mind at all if they did the honorable thing and reduced the retail price of the game because of the extra advertising revenue, but they won't. Far more likely is that we, the gamer, will have to foot the bill for the development of new and even more invasive in-game advertising systems as the market opens up because once again we, the gamer, rather than boycotting an obviously bad idea. I know they're not that noticeable, but I miss the days when you could spend hours looking at the posters the developers had put into the game, which were often pretty amusing. I don't wanna see the same crappy adverts I see all the time in real life!

Re:wtf

[AP31R0N]

This. Charge me up front, or a subscription... not both. If you are going to advertise at me, the game should be FREE, the way broadcast TV is.

Re:wtf

[Scudsucker]

I have returned DVD's for a refund because they wouldn't let you skip previes (and yes, I did eventually get the refund, though it took considerable time), and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

How'd you manage that? Aside from also wanting to return a disc for unskippable ads, I'm afraid I'll buy a Sony DVD sometime with "copyright protection" that means the disk wont work in some players.

Re:wtf

[Angelyne]

If this becomes commonplace, how long will it be until they start designing games to show case the ads, just like they currently do to tv shows. Games will become just a wrapper for the ads.

Re:wtf

[everphilski]

EQ1 has about 2 expansion a year (except 2001 and 2002, just one), 14 expansions in 8 years.
But for those that don't need the content right away, you can buy them a few months later for cheap. For example, right now you can get Anniversary Edition, which contains all 14 expansion, for $19.99. A few weeks ago it was on sale for $8 at a few retailers.

Re:wtf

[The Living Fractal]

WoW did release an Expansion in January, you're right. WoW was released November 23, 2004. Do the math, genius. That's over two years for the first expansion. The next expansion is coming no earlier than Mid 2008. It really depends on when WAR is reased. But if, at the very earliest, it is released June 2008, then that's about a year and a half from the last one. So, for those two expansions, that will likely be an average of over 18 months between each.

Yea, they said they plan on one every year or so. They said that from day one. It hasn't happened though. BTW, expansions cost 39.99, so 40 dollars, not 50.

As far as content after BC release, let's examine this. They released a lot of casual player content. Ethereum Prison. Ogri'la. Skettis. The netherdrake quests. Lots of holiday content, pretty much something for every holiday. The Headless Horseman for Halloween is a great example. It's a daily quest that drops epic quality items for 5 person teams. Arena Season 2, with upgraded items and a new arena. Upgraded battlegrounds epics. Season 1 Arena epics will be available for honor in 2.3. Other content just around the corner is an entirely new 10 person raid called Zul'Aman and a new 25 person raid called The Sunwell. Arena Season 3 and the associated upgrades. Heroics only requiring honored reputation instead of revered. Karazhan loot upgrades. Profession recipes available on reputation vendors. They're also making it much easier to level from 1-60 because they recognize the incredible amount of time it takes for new players to get into the game. All this and I am certain I am forgetting something. And all you can come up with is that the highest, hardest level dungeon in the game wasn't available on BC's release, even though nobody would've had the gear to beat it anyway!

So those two grenades in Hellgate no longer bounce. Well, that's progress. I bet you still can't control the speed or distance at which you throw them. Sounds like normal grenades still bounce like superballs. And you didn't address how incredibly awkward it feels when you start off the game and your rifle can only shoot a bullet 25 meters. You can't even _target_ an enemy past 25 meters, and if you try to shoot them your bullets magically disappear at 25 meters. Sure, later in the game you can get range extenders, but that is not the point here.

Care to address the closed-in, poorly textured, claustrophobic feeling? I don't know about you, but I actually read the first book by Mel Odom. After reading that book I was VERY excited to play the game. But the feel in the game is nowhere near what the book gave me. In WoW, and other mmos, you can stand on a ridge and look down across an endless expanse of terrain. You get the feeling of SIZE. In Hellgate, I have yet to see a cityscape. It's all Quake levels stitched together. There is no epic feeling.

Re:wtf

[Whyte Panther]

According to the Wikipedia article, you still get a shared stash, it's just half the size of the one for subscribers. And when you consider only 3 character slots instead of 20, it doesn't seem as important.

Actually, that's what subscribers get... Mule characters. :P

Re:wtf

[Boomer_Zz]

1) Your character is not gimped. You don't get certain online only options like shared stashes, guild creation, or the same number of character slots.

To play the game to the fullest you have to pay, it's as simple as that.

2) Not subscribing does absolutely nothing to the single player. A single player game that is good enough on its own to justify the cost of the box. In addition you get free online play even if you never play another dime. I seriously think that if they offered NO free online play, instead saying you can play single player on your own or pay a subscription for online, that there would be less people pissed off.

I agree with your point that single player = $50, and we're good to go. Compared to previous game types like diablo etc, people expect free online play for something that has single player. Many games offer it with no strings attached.

3) The subscription replaces having to buy expansions every six months or a year. Look at WoW. $15 a month, plus $50 a year for an expansion, plus no single player. And you don't hear anyone bitching about that.
This does not equate. Blizzard is so slow with WoW they release an expansion every 2 years or so, they also tend to have the release dates pushed. They are also only 30 bucks. The fee for online MMOs (which started with Ultima Online) gets you in game support (game master available), bannage of exploiters, bug fixes, tweaks to pvp and classes, and free expansions. (all MMOs have added content for free) I don't see single player being any fun for a real MMO.

Another key thing MMO's have is server side characters that are the company's responsibility.

4) You clearly haven't seen the ads. They are far from invasive. You can play through and never even notice that the ads on the subway walls are for real products. They aren't bright neon signs that scream "BUY COKE, MMM COKE." They're dirty worn down subway ads you'd expect to see in a subway. Only they're for actual products. I don't like the precedence either, but it's definitely not a gamebreaker.
I don't see a problem with the ads either as long as they aren't intrusive.

BF2142 (which offers free online play at zero cost) has ads, I didn't see them and I played it for a long while (well past brig gen), mostly on Camp Gibraltar. Then one day a big ass logo appeared on a wall that normally didn't have logos on it. It was a near a choke point. I stared at it for a second (wondering wtf) as someone shot me from another direction. See my brain processes everything, and it knows there was supposed to be an alternating color wall there and it knows that (lol it controls me) any difference in color means there's a person there to headshot, but it didn't see the person, it saw a big damn banner.

That was only there for one game, so I never had that problem again.

I am not for those types of banners.

Re:wtf

[PapayaSF]

If a game costs 50$ why the hell should there be ads in it?

Well, don't real London Underground stations have ads in them?

What were the ads?

[JamesTRexx]

I wonder if many will complain when it's ads for Sloggi. :-P
Anyway, seems to me it's about time more and better sandbox programs appear so games like this can be cut off from the OS itself.
No probing what OS, applications and colour of my shirt is, just run the damned game for which people paid good money.
Otherwise I'll just stick to good ol' Simcity, unless the development of games for *nix/*BSD skyrockets.

Re:What were the ads?

[vertinox]

Anyway, seems to me it's about time more and better sandbox programs appear so games like this can be cut off from the OS itself.

As an Intel Mac Gamer, I do this already. I play all my games in bootcamp or parallels and leave anything personal and business related on the OS X side of things. I suppose the could find out what other games I am playing but that is about it.

Re:What were the ads?

[Aleksej]

Lincity(-NG)?

Overreactions.

[DrEldarion]

I've been playing the beta for a week now, and even though I knew about the ads before I started playing, I still haven't noticed them at all while playing when I wasn't specifically looking for them. IIRC, they're limited to "stations" where are basically the towns from Diablo 2. Since these are basically subway stations, you expect to see ads there, and they aren't obtrusive at all, so they feel like part of the environment rather than being a jarring experience.

Hellgate is not the game to make an outrage over, because the ads in it are so tastefully done that they feel right.

Re:Overreactions.

[Lonewolf666]

So far, so good, but the EULA bit about data collection is still annoying enough that I will ignore this game.
Besides, it is supposed to have too much instancing for my taste ;-)

Re:Overreactions.

[thehatmaker]

Ive been playing the game and I don't notice the ads either, I find them to be mere scenery - just like the products and product packaging I am surrounded with right now. oh wait..

Re:Overreactions.

[Clete2]

It may be that way, but if they are accepted, eventually in the future, it will be required to watch an advertisement or two before playing the game.

Re:Overreactions.

[Snaller]

"Hellgate is not the game to make an outrage over, because the ads in it are so tastefully done that they feel right."

Who cares - they ARE doing it - that's bad enough. The commercial spam is one thing, but the spying on our machine that is the real problem.

Yet another...

[band-aid-brand]

Yet another game that had so much potential that I will not be purchasing because of in game ads and adware. I'm looking at you BF2142.

Re:Yet another...

[xx01dk]

I'll second this.

Re:Yet another...

[mjwx]

Yet another game that had so much potential that I will not be purchasing because of in game ads and adware. I'm looking at you BF2142.

BF2142 did not have potential. Same rehashed crap that didn't run properly on my PC (Version of DX required for the demo managed to break other games). Pretty much what one expects from EA.

Marketing Has Succeeded

[nurb432]

If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the marketeers have won.

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[derfy]

Wait a minute. Games are trying to imitate reality. In reality, subway stations have ads in them. So, shouldn't games have ads in them* to "feel right"?

* = WHERE APPROPRIATE. Games like WoW do not need billboards in them.

But I agree on the paying aspect. If you pay, you don't see ads(unless you want to).

And, make the game cost less due to the ad revenue.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[dave1g]

well, they aren't paying for the beta, I assume....

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Rallion]

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product.

You must really hate magazines. A lot.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[GiMP]

> If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the
> marketeers have won.

I'm not so sure that there was ever a battle to win. More of a 'bending over'.

Anyway, there are places where you *expect* to see ads, such as billboards on the side of a highway, oin a subway station, or on the side of a bus. Older games either missed this realism (come on, how many highways do you know without any billboards?) or had fake advertisements.

I guess for the game developers, having real ads is win-win.. they don't have to spend time on making graphics for fake ads, some more realism (since real life *does* have ads), and they get additional income.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[LaskoVortex]

Every day I bus down a street that has giant "LCD" screens with changing pictures. I don't play video games, but if they ever got as bad as that street, my desire to play them would go from some tiny fraction to some new fraction much, much tinier than than it already is.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Draek]

get the ads out of real-life stations, and then they won't feel 'right' on a video-game one anymore.

sorry, but the battle against 'marketeers' was lost decades ago.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[bit01]

or had fake advertisements.

And the fake ad's were/are a lot more entertaining than any real ad's. The whole point of games is escapism.

---

"Advertising supported" just means you're paying twice over, once in time to watch/avoid the ad and twice in the increased price of the product to pay for the ad.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[zenkonami]

Remember when you could go drop $10 - $15 on a movie, and then another $5 each on something to drink, and you didn't have to watch 15 minutes of advertising before the trailers started?

I don't go to the cinema much anymore...

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Jugalator]

If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the marketeers have won.

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product. Why should all ads in subways mysteriously disappear 30 years in the future from subway stations?
You need to answer this question with a very reasonable explanation before you claim someone has "won".

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[nacturation]

I'm not a big gamer, so maybe I don't quite "get it", but when I play a game, I'm usually playing because it's *not* like real life. If I wanted a game that was just like real life, I'd go out side and experience actual real life. In real life, can you race your $100,000 vehicle through downtown Tokyo smashing into things multiple times, all the while never seeing any advertising? Without belaboring the obvious, you have a point if you're talking about SimDishwashing or something but the reason games -- even ones that attempt to model real life -- are popular is because they allow you to do things you can't do in real life.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[nurb432]

Yes, i do. I have dropped all my subscriptions over the years in part due to that very reason. And newspapers. I also despise commercials on cable tv, when im paying for access in the first place. I still remember cable being advertised as 'commercial free alternative to broadcast TV'

And for the record, i hate billboards along the roads as well...

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[suv4x4]

If it has gotten to the point that ads are expected and feel 'right' in a video game, then the marketeers have won.

ADs are not 'right' in any context, especially when you are paying for the product.

They have won what. They had to put fake ads in the subways anyway to make it look like a real subway, why not put real ads. As long as it's not out of context and not obtrusive, it's ok. Ads make sense in many sports games as well.

Like it or not, ads are part of the pop culture now. If you take them away from places we expect them to be, it WILL feel wrong.

When I played Doom3 there were lots of "ads" inside the game but they were all manufactured from ID and advertised imaginary military agencies, corporations, and "punch the turkey" games (homage to Doom 1/2).

So, even when it's not about money, ads can enhance the experience in certain situations.

Don't be so stubborn. We have some guy up the thread wanting to astroturf buy and return the game multiple times. Then some guy worrying this means online multiplayer will suck.

Knee-jerk reactions happen, but usually a second later I realize I moved my knee despite no actual reason for it. Over here we see knee-jerk reactions raised to a culture on their own, and praised to heaven and back.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Tim C]

but when I play a game, I'm usually playing because it's *not* like real life. If I wanted a game that was just like real life, I'd go out side and experience actual real life.

Fighting the demonic hordes is cool. Fighting the demonic hordes in a futuristic setting is cooler. Fighting the demonic hordes in a futuristic setting in my home town is about as cool as it can get. (Although note that I've not played the game yet, it could well suck)

when your game is about demons from hell invading London thirty years in the future, being realistic goes straight out the window

Just because the premise is unrealistic, doesn't mean that the setting has to be. Believe me, the Tube is *covered* with adverts - some stations now even have LCD screens with moving ads playing (thankfully no sound as yet...). Not having adverts in the game would be jarring for those of us who actually use the Tube (or I guess any similar train system) on a daily basis. Kind of like when it rains in Oblivion and the rain goes straight through archways, etc. It's a little thing, but it spoils the realism a bit.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Tim Browse]

"...and he likes to be known as the Angry Young Man."

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[naoursla]

The real way to attack this is to get rid of advertising in real-life places like subways. Then the game makers won't have the "more realistic" excuse to put ads in-game.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[boarsai]

The adverts probably help with keeping the servers paid for with so many people that will no doubt not subscribe to the $10 subscription plan. However who cares about that eh? Who cares if the servers cost money to run? I mean the money I forked out to buy the game... that should cover costs indefinitely for running these game servers right?

When the paid content updates slowly find their way to the players that aren't subscribing... that stuff.. it practically developed itself, right? I mean that didn't cost anything either... as someone not paying a subscription fee for content updates... I deserve 100% not to see adverts.

You don't see any coca cola zombies or any such things, it's done in what I'd consider a very smooth and stylish way. Hell you literally have to walk up to some to even see what the hell they say or are about... from a distance the grime and dirt covering them obscures them quite nicely... not to mention the poor lighting on most of them. It looks like a subway in real life... and funnily enough just like in real life I can ignore them and have been doing so for the most part in-game anyway.

At any rate a lot of the anger seems to be stemming from two types of people: people that haven't actually seen it in-game and people who probably wouldn't have subscribed/bought this game anyway. The few people I know in beta are not concerned, hell I haven't even seen a single friend of mine bring it up as an issue.

Paid subscriptions have the option to disable this?

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Gideon Fubar]

honestly... No. I don't remember a time like that.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[sa1lnr]

"In reality, subway stations have ads in them that don't collect information about me"

There you go, corrected. ;)

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[dfm3]

I know it's a slippery slope, but what if this trend causes developers to start focusing more on games which can provide ad revenue- shunning the medieval setting, for example, in favor of a more modern one into which they can slip ads that "feel right"?

Or worse, if level design starts to focus less on gameplay and strategy, and more on maximizing advertising visibility and number of impressions.

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[nurb432]

How about 'bitter middle aged man' instead .

Ever see the movie Falling Down?

Re:Marketing Has Succeeded

[Tim Browse]

Wait...I'm the bad guy?

Re:Does it run on Linux?

[ubrgeek]

Usually a nice cheese ;)

Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[mattgreen]

Dear God, not again!

Luckily I had a helpful error box pop up and only had to pay $19.95 (plus VA 4.5% sales tax) to stop this heinous security oversight that is present in EVERY operating system on the Internet!

Re:Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[j79zlr]

Mining your IP address and OS version is nothing special, but TFS says that it also transmits information about your installed programs and connected hardware. That is a little more invasive than the info included in your headers.

Re:Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[Snaller]

Ever thought about killing yourself? You would help the planet.

Re:Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[The_mad_linguist]

Well, it *is* a beta. Shouldn't they know what setup you're using so they can find problems?

Re:Your IP address is being broadcast RIGHT NOW!

[mattgreen]

Everyone's worried they're going to find out they use a cracked version of WinRAR, probably. ;)

Advertising

[niceone]

I find advertising pretty off-putting in the real world too. Just another reason to stay in the basement...

Re:Unobtrusive

[MaineCoon]

I never saw ads in Hellgate London demo or the retail version of BF2142. I think it may be because I'm behind a hardware firewall (Linksys WRT54GL, yay).

On the other hand, Hellgate London demo was a real yawner. Very disappointing. Unplayably buggy in the gameplay department (everything else ran smoothly though) - I literally reached a dead end along the linear path that I had to take to get to the next zone and complete the main questline, which I assume upon completion the demo would end. Went back, and could find no alternative path through either of the last two areas on the path.

Cursor tracking

[BlueParrot]

Taking bets on weather this will be seen as a reason to make the game "phone home" about what users "look at" in-game ? I'd expect them to track your cursor, camera angles, and zoom at the very least.

Re:Cursor tracking

[derfy]

What odds can you give me on a tornado?

Re:Cursor tracking

[legirons]

Taking bets on weather this will be seen as a reason to make the game "phone home" about what users "look at" in-game ? I'd expect them to track your cursor, camera angles, and zoom at the very least.

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070914

Re:Cursor tracking

[p0tat03]

The ads are in the London Underground... Anyone who has played the Beta and been in the London Underground knows that the ads are, if anything, underdone

One requirement that I have for in-game advertising is realism. If I see a Nike ad along the boards of a hockey arena in NHL 08, I wouldn't have my sense of immersion in the least, and in fact I welcome this instead of having them invent some distracting, fake brand to "advertise" in the stadium.

But seeing Comcast in the London Underground? NVidia? If they can get the type of companies that I would *actually* be likely to see in the metro, then sure, fine, but I doubt that's what's going on here. What you get are ads that completely snap you out of the sense of immersion.

They're talking about a subscription model with a no monthly fee option.

If I pay the monthly fee will there still be ads? If not, then I think this is a fair tradeoff - you can't get something for nothing!

Re:Cursor tracking

[macshit]

But seeing Comcast in the London Underground? NVidia? If they can get the type of companies that I would *actually* be likely to see in the metro, then sure, fine, but I doubt that's what's going on here. What you get are ads that completely snap you out of the sense of immersion.

Seriously. Ads are part of the game's ambience. One of the reasons why "hellgate london" would sell better than for instance "hellgate san cupertino" is that people like (more or less) exotic and interesting locales.

If I buy a game set in China, and it has ads in some appropriate context, the ads damn well better be in Chinese!

Two Words

[Dunbal]

This makes sense really, when you consider who is pushing for this:

Electronic Arts.

Yet another reason why I hope they will die a fiery death. I haven't bought an EA game since they bought/shut down GameStorm because "gasp" it competed with "Ultima Online".

Re:Two Words

[MadHatter2005]

EA, unfortunately, is not going to die a fiery death anytime soon. They just paid over 800 million dollars for Pandemic/Bioware, and they have plenty of cash in the bank.

Re:Just give in.. Sooner or later you will anyway.

[LaskoVortex]

When I suggested my roommate to switch from AIM to something like Miranda, he wrote me back as if I had suggested he cook his mom in a pot of stew. He is a gamer with a brand new x-box. So there probably is a correlation. These people WANT to bend over. I feels good to them.

Beta Acceptance

[XenoPhage]

So, I was invited to take part in this particular Beta... But after hearing about the draconian EULA and now this, I'm not sure I have any interest... *sigh* I miss the days where I could Beta test something without having to worry about my privacy...

Re:Beta Acceptance

[MMaestro]

I miss the days where I could Beta test something without having to worry about my privacy...

Really now? And when was that? I've been in over a dozen beta tests on and off in the past 10 years and in nearly every single one, the EULA virtually shoved a stick up my ass. I've been in a beta where the EULA stated that any opinions regarding the gameplay balance would become property of the company without reparation.

Seriously, if you think this EULA is draconian, you need to read the fine print on all of the contracts you sign digital or print.

Spying

[ChaoticCoyote]

I don't mind in-game ads, as long as they're inobtrusive.

I do mind giving EA and Flagship blanket permission to examine everything on my computer. READ what their "agreement" says -- they can mine your computer for whatever data they want, and give/sell it to whomever pays for it.

I keep sensitive business data, covered by NDAs, on my computer; I don't want anonymous strangers mining through my music, documents, source code, and data. Quite simply, the Hellgate: London agreement is completely unreasonable and dangerous.

Anyone who supports Free Software should understand the principles involved here, and refuse to accept Hellgate London on their computer.

Re:Spying

[illumin8]

I do mind giving EA and Flagship blanket permission to examine everything on my computer. READ what their "agreement" says -- they can mine your computer for whatever data they want, and give/sell it to whomever pays for it.

This is such a non-story, it isn't even funny. Talk about blowing things out of proportion. Their agreement gives them the right to do less than Google has the right to do every time you make a search. What's more, they even promise not to use your individual data in any way. It is only used in aggregate form, pretty much like Google. Check this text, from the very agreement (emphasis mine):

EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers.

I've been playing the beta the last 2 weeks, and I must tell you, this game pretty much rocks. It's like Diablo 2 met Halflife 2 and they had a baby. A demon spawned, zombie killing, FPS if you want to or hack-n-slash or pew-pew with spells if you want to, clickfest of a game. This game is like Diablo 2 in full 3d on crack. It is about as addictive as crack, and you're going to be hearing a lot about it over the next couple weeks.

Re:Spying

[bit01]

I don't mind in-game ads, as long as they're inobtrusive.

There is no such thing as a successful, unobtrusive ad.

The whole point of an ad is to be noticed and acted on.

Unless you take subliminal advertising seriously, and science disproved that decades ago. Even if it were subliminal that doesn't somehow give them the right to bypass people's fully informed consent.

This is nothing more than the continuing theft of people's time and money by unethical marketers. An arms race where everybody loses except the marketing parasites.

---

"Advertising supported" just means you're paying twice over, once in time to watch/avoid the ad and twice in the increased price of the product to pay for the ad.

Re:Spying

[illumin8]

Astroturfed much recently?

Oh yeah, Flagship Studios hired a crack team of people like me with relatively low Slashdot UIDs to surf the forums all weekend long and keep the conspiracy hidden! And we would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

(In case you couldn't tell, the above was sarcasm)

I'm actually just enjoying playing this game for the past couple of weeks, didn't find the ads very obtrusive, and found the EULA and User Agreement to be pretty generic compared to every other MMORPG around. Read them. All of them allow the company to use data about your gameplay, hardware specs, etc, in aggregate, as long as they don't share individual data with partners, who cares? In fact, if you read the agreement for most websites they say the exact same fucking thing.

On noes! You are broadcasting an IP Address! When will the spying stop?

Re:Spying

[ChaoticCoyote]

I've been playing the beta the last 2 weeks, and I must tell you, this game pretty much rocks. It's like Diablo 2 met Halflife 2 and they had a baby. A demon spawned, zombie killing, FPS if you want to or hack-n-slash or pew-pew with spells if you want to, clickfest of a game. This game is like Diablo 2 in full 3d on crack. It is about as addictive as crack, and you're going to be hearing a lot about it over the next couple weeks.

I played about 10 hours of the game before obliterating it from my disk. The dialog system is tedious, the monsters stupid, the graphics dull and uninspired, the RPG elements meaningless, and the stability horrible. I've got 5-year-old games with better textures. And I'm running a pretty solid multicore system with lots of memory and the latest graphics.

Your mileage may vary, of course. :)

Re:Spying

[cytg.net]

"EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers."
- yea until a laptop gets stolen or they feel like changing the eula.. no fcking way.

Re:Spying

[kuzb]

How exactly does google scan and report the contents of my hard drive? The only way they have to do that is with google desktop, and since it's not on my machine, it's a non-issue. Replace "EA and Flagship" for Microsoft and use all the same details. People would go batshit. However, because it's a game people want to play, all the apologists are popping up. Them making a great game should _not_ excuse this kind of behavior.

Re:Spying

[Pinky's Brain]

You missed the word "also". Also while they don't use/sell information which personally identifies me they can use and sell information which identifies my computer. With my MAC address and IP it ain't that hard to find out who I am, the difference between identifying me or my computer is purely academic IMO.

Re:Spying

[halcyon1234]

First, I agree with you about ads. I'd prefer to see none, but if they are there, they should be unobtrusive.

However, if you are keeping mission-critical and sensitive data on your computer, then you shouldn't be installing games on it. You're exposing your clients (and yourself) to admittedly invasive third parties. And that's just the software you KNOW about. If you're willing to install this, then what else gets indiscriminately installed? What does it do?

If you must play the game, install it on another machine. Or on a VM on your workstation. Though you should have that sensitive data on a separate intranet that is isolated from the rest of the world.

Re:Spying

[Rulke]

Grats to the mods, +5 for someone that uses his work computer with critical and highly confidential business data to play games online really is insightful...

Re:Spying

[Flambergius]

If it only were so. From the article, the bad part of the EULA:

Consent to Use of Data. You agree that EA, its affiliates, and each Related Party may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play. EA and/or the Related Parties may also use this information in the aggregate and, in a form which does not personally identify you, to improve our products and services and we may share that aggregate data with our third party service providers.

Notice that EA is not promising to use only aggregate information: they clearly state that they may also use aggregate information and can use it to whatever they want.

My reading of this clause is that I would grant EA a free reign to data mine my computer. They say that they will at least check what software I have and will link that to my computer, however they specifically state they are not promising to limit themselves to software, and thus might look into any data I have on my computer. The only limit they are putting on themselves is that whatever they look for, it will be done in the name of making the game better.

This is a really bad clause. Luckily my game rig is not networked, although I have to check if I can play this game at all.

Re:Spying

[Scudsucker]

In case you couldn't tell, the above was sarcasm

I would hope so if you think 100,000+ counts as "low".

Re:Spying

[illumin8]

This is a really bad clause. Luckily my game rig is not networked, although I have to check if I can play this game at all.

You can still play the game in single player mode, if you so desire, without even an internet connection. The EULA only refers to online play.

Re:Spying

[ChaoticCoyote]

I was talking about other games, also covered under NDAs. I'm not going to build a new machine for every game I install. And yes, I beta test several, and even work for a couple of game companies at times.

Anything that needs to be really secure -- say, personal financial data or porn -- is on a nicely-secure Linux box or a secured Windows laptop. Yes, Windows can be secure.

As usual, people like you focus on insignificant details so they can ignore the real issue -- in this case, the problem is an End User License Agreement that demands uncontrolled access to my computer and anything associated with it, just to play a very weak semi-shooter game.

Re:Spying

[typicallyterrific]

Well, for one, it's pretty hard to get your name, address and phone number from the details of your hardware and what software you have installed. There's just nothing linking back to you; even if it got your hard drive serial numbers, you'd still have to access to every hard drive manufacturer's sales database before it could be used to pinpoint which continent you're on.

However, the stuff you type in google tends to be far more intimate and personally revealing just by itself.

Of course, this is all moot given a good IP address and a willing ISP, but that's a different story (and nothing to be concerned about).

Re:Spying

[boomix]

"This game pretty much rocks?" What game are you playing? This game's controls are really bad, game crashes at random, it consumes 2/3 of available ram, it is CTD all the time and after the latest patch it goes CTD within 20 minutes of play. Game is prehistoric by today's terms. Let's put the clumsy interface and controls aside. Let's talk about quest system or how you cannot use quest items or open the inventory while in combat without blocking your whole screen while trying to right-click the quest item while not being able to move while inventory window is open and how it all doesn't work. And this is the latest published beta that just went gold and is about to be sold in stores. "It's like Diablo 2 met Halflife 2 and they had a baby." What the . . .? I think HL2 is more of RPG then HGL.

Re:Spying

[Rulke]

Oh, don't get me wrong, i absolutely abhore "phone home" software. And it seems clear to me that with those other NDA's you are not even allowed to install something that grants unlimited access for a third party to your computer. Problem solved right there It really is irrelevant if it's other games or your porn collection. My point stands, if you work with confidential material on your computer you do not use the same computer to play a game. Just skip a beta... unless you get paid for it, in which case i am sure you are not playing it but testing :) If you get paid for the other beta's... i'm sure you will make a financially sound decision. As usual people like you focus on stereotyping and thinking just because someone doesn't state the obvious yet again they are ignoring it...

Re:Spying

[ChaoticCoyote]

Actually, the way most NDAs and EULAs are written, it could be construed that installing the operating system is a violation. I do know that most of them make it "illegal" for me to even mention what I've installed to my wife and kids. Totally silly, if you ask me, unless they only want sequestered monks to test software.

lets try for +5 troll

[v1]

OR you could buy it, install it, activate it, return it, send them an email explaining you were already paying for it by the ad revenue they are now receiving because of it, so you're returning it because you're not going to pay for it TWICE.

If anyone at the store argues about returning open box software, explain the ads. If they won't accept the return on that basis, explain you will be taking your software patronage elsewhere.

Re:lets try for +5 troll

[buswolley]

I like this.For example, I do not wear shirts with logos because I am not receiving ad revenue for it. oh and I don't care if the shirt was pricier or cheaper because of subsidizing by the company of the logo to the t-shirt maker. The shirt should be free(Google model, now c'mon) at least.

What about the info?

[Jartan]

Let's not waste our anger on whether or not there are ads. The real problem is the bogus parts about them collecting some "anonymous" info.

According to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Incorporated

Second, the SDK is integrated with the game to act as a client to Massive's ad servers. It allows the game to fetch the ad, display it on a surface, and analyze how the player acts around it. Massive refers to this as "Phase II: Integration of the Software Development Kit (SDK)."

Oh and just to make sure we know who we are REALLY talking about here Massive is owned by everyones favorite software company to hate:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9186

Re:What about the info?

[Aladrin]

You know what? What you just described... I don't mind. If they want to record that I spent 30 second staring at a billboard with Axe body spray, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with them logging my IP. (All of them probably do, anyhow.)

What I'm not fine with is then also taking down ANY information that is on my personal computer. They have no right to collect or use information about what hardware, software or data is on my computer.

It's a good thing I got tired of the same old MMO BS, because back when I was 'addicted' I probably would have played this crap anyhow. (That was like 10 years ago, for those who are counting.)

Re:What about the info?

[Pax681]

i might add that there are many more than the two e-tailors i contacted, just happens i contacted the biggest two that i have had dealings with so far

Re:What about the info?

[Kalriath]

I have a tip for you: Line Breaks. Noone's gonna read what you just posted, walls of text suck.

Re:What about the info?

[Pax681]

i still couldn't are! pedantry also sucks;)

Re:What about the info?

[Skribblez]

Monitoring how we react around the ad? Why don't we just target them as we find them and fire away? Can they tell if we're shooting at the ad and not at a mob?

Re:Just give in.. Sooner or later you will anyway.

[Daimanta]

It's a game, not the apocalypse or big brother or anything. If you use this scaremongering long enough it will lose all meaning and when the day comes that it gets nasty, nobody will believe you.

Don't cry wolf if there's no wolf around.

Re:Unobtrusive

[SeekerDarksteel]

The reason you probably never saw the ads is because they're almost impossible to actually see unless you're looking for them. I was playing the beta for several weeks before I realized that the ads on the subway walls were actual ads for real products. They're integrated into the environment and easy to look over.

As for the demo, they really messed up. The beta is less buggy (although still has a couple kinks to work out). They just shouldn't have released the demo at all to be honest.

Compared to EA...

[Eirenarch]

Microsoft are just a non profit organization whose goal is to help orphans. Someone edit the Wikipedia article on Hellgate to reflect these news and see if they are gonna whitewash it. They did the same thing with the new Battlefield. Not to mention that for the last 10 years they've been selling the same FIFA, Need For Speed, NHL, NBA, etc. games and pretending they were new.

I'm playing

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm playing it. Hellgate is Diablo II on steroids (it was designed by the creators of Diablo). Great game.

NVIDIA is indeed big. Dark Horse comics as well.

TO BE CLEAR: there are no, "now we pause for this word from our sponsor" moments and big baddy doesn't come after you wearing an NVIDIA t-shirt. The only thing I've spotted is NVIDIA and Dark Horse posters in the Underground Stations (it's London) and in the city ruins- kinda like the fake posters and magazines in DOOM 3, but real companies.

If it provides a revenue stream that would otherwise increase the price of the game I have no problem with this.

Re:I'm playing

[buswolley]

Is the game appreciably cheaper? How much are you worth? A dollar? Two? Twenty? They should pay you for the opportunity to show you ads.

Re:I'm playing

[HeroreV]

That doesn't sound bad at all. In Xenosaga I, you get random emails that pop up a big attention grabbing notice. Sometimes emails contain important information necessary to continue the game, and sometimes they contain horribly written clinical advertisements that aren't disguised in the least.

By comparison, some dusty posters on the walls are hardly anything to be bothered about.

Re:I'm playing

[Gideon Fubar]

I'm also in the beta. The ads are in a lot of places in the town areas.. plastered would probably be an accurate way of describing it.. they're not, however, intrusive. In fact, despite the fact that they're everywhere, i found myself actually looking at them the other day trying to work out what the hell they were for.. They fit the art style quite well, they're dirty, deliberately pretty hard to see and even harder to read..

If it wasn't for the fact that the EULA seems to say that they can survey whatever system i run it on and collect the results (and if it didn't have bad memory leaks) i'd have no problem with this game at all.

Really, it's a pretty fun game too, assuming your favorite part of diablo wasn't the clicking...

Re:I'm playing

[Creepy]

My understanding is this funds the (free) multiplayer servers, similar to how Battle*Net funded with advertisements on the connect/find party screen (but yes, you still get the ads in single player). The game will also have subscription servers for ~$10/mo for an "elite" membership that gives you access to other areas. Obviously, being a business, they hope this makes additional income after cost.

Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[WCMI92]

I expect ads in something I get for free, as in over the air radio or TV. But I don't in a video game I'd have to pay for.

A $50 game that I have to accept ads and spyware to play? No thanks. Sell it for $10 or give it away for free, and you might justify it.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[aseth]

Just like how there are no ads on cable TV, right?

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[WCMI92]

Cable TV is cheaper than it would be if there were no ads at all. And premium channels (like HBO) have no ads at all. When you are shoving ads into a $50 game (which is typically what games cost these days, maybe even a little ABOVE average priced) you are expecting me to pay full price PLUS put up with ads.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[cicho]

Your TV doesn't mine your apartment for personal data and upload it to the cable company. And anyway, the prevalence of advertising in the media is only one more reason to STOP any further encroachment, not tolerate it.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[GooberToo]

Cable TV is cheaper than it would be if there were no ads at all.

That's actually not true. Most people don't remember then but when cable first came out to the masses, 90% of the selling point is that you would ONLY get commercials on network broadcast channels. Once they had their foot in the door in most markets, commercials changed over night. Since then, it has been the same old story; lie, lie, lie, raise prices again, just like everyone other monopoly/utility. I seem to recall cable being commercial free for only a year or two, after that they placed commercials like crazy and their prices doubled over the next eight years. This was in the Houston market. Keep in mind, they were profitable when before they had commercials and while they were still rolling out cable in large areas. Think about that for second.

These days people pay inflated prices for channels because we are floating 100-channels no one watches or wants because they are force bundled. In other words, they could drop commercials and stop bundling and prices could stay the same. Some estimates I've read suggest cable company prices could be cut in half and they would still be wildly profitable. Remember, sat TV is only profitable because cable profits are so insanely, unreasonable high. Think about it for a second, you really think the cost of using cable laid over the last 30 years is anything near the cost of launching and maintaining sats in orbit while maintaining a market the fraction the size cable? To boot, sat is often cheaper than cable in many markets while their per install overhead is much, much higher than cable. If that doesn't tell you how insanely over priced cable is, you'll never gasp it.

The version, as you tell it, is what the cable companies preach and it has been fairly well debunked.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[zenkonami]

Precisely. People who play Anarchy Online for free get real ads (though I've not entirely understood what they were for.) People who pay get ads for in game products and such appropriate to the game world, but not ads related to the real world. Sounds like a fair deal to me.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[soupforare]

Sell it for $10 or give it away for free, and you might justify it.

Personally, this is my only issue with ads in-game. I really, really don't care about ads in a game and only very mildly care about the game reporting how long what ad stays in my FoV. What I can't stand is paying full price for a game that is being subsidized with ad revenue.
Pull your head out your ass EA. Most people don't care about ads. They want cheaper games.

Re:Ads in a game you pay for=Stealing

[dave420]

Newspapers and magazines have ads in them. If they didn't, they'd cost about 5 times as much, and their value to you, the reader, would be diminished. What if this game would actually cost you $100 without the advertising subsidy EA are getting for the ads? They're saving you money by selling something you don't mind being sold (or, indeed expect to be sold), namely advertising space, and passing the savings on to you. oh noes!!11

Ads in game are a good thing!

[Crazy Taco]

There actually are some pretty good reasons to put ads in games. In fact, having ads in games (to a point) can be a win/win for both the software company, which gets more money, and the user, who gets more realism. For instance, if you play a game in a city setting, one would expect realistic ads on billboards, bulletin boards, walls, etc (as opposed to crappy old games where you would race cars through a city, for instance, and every billboard would say "Midway!", which got old really quick). And speaking of racing games, what kind of a NASCAR game would you have if there weren't ads plastered all over the cars? I think having ads in a game is great for realism and cost defrayment (maybe you don't need as many people to buy a game for developers to be willing to make it, since they will also get ad money). As long as they put the ads in context within the game, this is a great thing.

Now, I should say I haven't seen this beta so I don't know if they are crossing the line and putting ads out of context. If every third person in a crowd is wearing an NVIDIA shirt, that is out of context and pretty ridiculous. Also, if performance suffers from downloading new ads for the game or something, that is bad too. But if performance doesn't suffer, downloading new ads could be good. After all, billboards, walls, etc change their ads in real life, so why shouldn't a game? That ads realism and variety to the landscape.

Re:Ads in game are a good thing!

[Quixadhal]

NASCAR car ads.... that reminds me of Captain Amazing from Mystery Men.
I can only hope the same fate awaits the geniuses who decided we needed advertising in our escapist video games too. :)

This is a surprise to whom?

[doug141]

Just as advertising is all over the real world, so will it be all over the virtual one.

It's only in subways

[krunk7]

It's not that big a deal. Subways with bare walls would be very odd. Extremly odd and not even close to realistic. So you have a game whose environment includes add ridden subways (just like in real life). Now the developer has to ask a question: Which adds do we display in the subways? You can choose at random or you can do what the subways do: whoever pays.

If, for the sake of realism, you have to put adds in the subway stations, why not make money off of it? The game experience is the same, the only difference is instead of seeing "Moca Mola" and "Nickers" adds you see the same ones your used to in real subways (Coca Cola and Snickers).

Now if we started seeing the "Legendary Snicker Hammer of Pwnage" and the "Coca Cola Champion's Sword" I'd be put off....but this isn't the case at all.

Re:It's only in subways

[ChaoticCoyote]

The issue isn't the ads themselves -- it's the blanket data mining clause included in the EULA.

I don't care about ads -- I do care about people snooping around on my computer.

Re:It's only in subways

[Volatar]

That however, is not the topic of this news story. The ads are.

Re:It's only in subways

[DukeFH]

Hellgate: London II

Does this game seem like its all subways to you?

Re:It's only in subways

[zenkonami]

Subways with bare walls would be very odd. Extremly odd and not even close to realistic.

I know it's the exception rather than the rule, but you've never ridden the Los Angeles Subway, I see.

Re:It's only in subways

[Jugalator]

The game experience is the same, the only difference is instead of seeing "Moca Mola" and "Nickers" adds you see the same ones your used to in real subways (Coca Cola and Snickers). Agreed, and I'm personally so tired of seeing games with "fake" ads. They're easily worse than real ones to me. It makes the game look cheap and detracts from the immersion, at least if the game is supposed to take place in our world. It's a bit like faking soccer player names just because the company couldn't get a proper license to use their real names.

Re:It's only in subways

[Kamineko]

How about some well thought out in-game universe product adverts?

Re:It's only in subways

[krunk7]

I know it's the exception rather than the rule, but you've never ridden the Los Angeles Subway, I see.

Lol, I actually live in LA and no, I haven't. Does anyone ride the subway here? I'm thinking NY and London subways.

Re:It's only in subways

[krunk7]

How about some well thought out in-game universe product adverts?

Well, the entire idea behind hellgate is that the universe is...our universe. Just 25 years in the future. I'm sure Coca Cola and Nestles will still be alive and well when the demons come. :)

Re:It's only in subways

[Kamineko]

Hmm... I didn't know that. I shall proceed with my silly argument nevertheless! In the future, would they be selling 25 year old products? I suppose that if the adverts were also absolutely targeted to the era of Hellgate (for example, Bioshock ingame adverts would have to be in 30s style), then that would be okayish(ish).

Re:It's only in subways

[zenkonami]

It's picking up slowly but surely, but will probably never have the ridership of NY, London, Moscow, etc...=D

hellgate beta

[SirSmiley]

I am a hellgate beta tester...and I have yet to play it. I signed up, got an account then read everything carefully and noticed EA's crap about ads...something which I quit BF2142 over. I do not need EA spyware on my pc.

Re:hellgate beta

[Anonymous Coward]

The ads are streamed by Massive, a Microsoft advertising company.

They are easy to block, as Massive is used to stream the ads that are shown to free players in Anarchy Online. I added the Massive servers/ip addresses to Peerguardian 2 in order to block them. Play the free version of AO all the time with not one commercial/advertisement. In fact, here ya go:

madserver.net:38.119.38.151
ad.madserver.net:38.119.38.151
imp.madserver.net:38.119.38.153
media.madserver.net:38.119.38.152

Block those, and AO is ad free. The same can be done for any EA game or any game using Massive for their advertisements.

Only Partially Bad

[snl2587]

Assuming that the ads are displayed on walls and such and not on the menus then the only problem I have with this game is that it, as others have said, "phones home". Frankly, in-game ads on the walls and such just make games more realistic to me. You can't go anywhere these days without spotting ads.

Re:Only Partially Bad

[Pax681]

[quote]Assuming that the ads are displayed on walls and such and not on the menus then the only problem I have with this game is that it, as others have said, "phones home". Frankly, in-game ads on the walls and such just make games more realistic to me. You can't go anywhere these days without spotting ads.[/quote] erm... in the "in game reality" the only adverts would be dated and fooked as there woud not be any companies still functioning... so it woudn't make it more real, except in the sense that EA like to fuck you!

Re:Unobtrusive

[hedwards]

That was what I was wondering. People do have differing standards, but it would be nice to see a few screen shots. It does make a huge difference if the ads look appropriate to the environment.

I wouldn't mind necessarily playing a race car simulation which included advertisements pretty much everywhere, for the reason that real races will have tons of advertisements everywhere. Just don't take the intrusive information that isn't related and do lower the price on the game by using the advertising revenue to subsidize it.

Perhaps use some of the revenue to release extra content for the game.

But overall, I do have to say that in game ads are tacky in most situations. When I play games, I play them to leave reality, not to be more available to the advertisers I'm trying to ignore.

Compared to DVD movies

[RealRav]

I do not see this trend ever stopping. Millions of DVDs are purchased that have intrusive ads that play before the movie. Some that can't even be bypassed. It may irk a percentage of the consumers(I'm one of them), but if you want the movie(legally) you just have to deal with it.

Re:Compared to DVD movies

[Zironic]

I'll live happily with my illegal ad-free copy thank you very much. I bet someone will hack the game to disable the ads.

One thing about the information they gather though, In some countries like mine(Sweden) there are some very strict privacy laws that prevents people from gathering the kind of data they plan to gather. I wonder what they'll plan to do about that, I don't think I ever saw any adds in BF2142, might be because of that.

Ads in games.

[camperdave]

Ads in games are nothing new, though. You drove past Atari billboards in Pole Position back in the 1980s. Practically every driving game has billboards. There are ads on the boards in hockey games and soccer games. I was watching my roommate play a basketball game, and along the sidelines, they had those rolling billboard ad machines just like on television. I thought, "wouldn't it be cool if those displayed real ads".

Advertisers want to put their ad in front of people's eyes. Some people spend an hour or two playing video games each night. These are obviously the same people with enough disposable income to be able to buy the game and the console to begin with. Placing ads in games seems like a pretty natural avenue to me. ...not that I agree with it. It's just a logical place for them.

Re:Ads in games.

[Dogtanian]

Ads in games are nothing new, though. You drove past Atari billboards in Pole Position back in the 1980s. That's hardly the same thing; although not its creator, Atari was the distributor of Pole Position in the US.

It's the "EULA"

[Jane Q. Public]

If I don't like ads, I can always just not buy another product from that company. But a "EULA" that says you agree to it transmitting personal information to the company, telling it not just that you bought the game but when you are playing it??? I will pass on that one.

I do not know about game-specific retailers per se, but not one major software retailer in the United States (CompUSA, etc.) will give refunds for opened software. The software companies themselves encouraged that policy "to fight piracy". So statements in shrink-wrap EULAs to the effect that if you don't like the terms you should just return the product are misleading at best. If I were a judge, I would call it outright "fraud" because the software companies are well aware of that situation... they created it!

Re:It's the "EULA"

[Pax681]

in this case it's the PUBLISHER and not the developers being asshats. EA ARE BASTARDS!

Re:It's the "EULA"

[coolGuyZak]

If you're old enough, purchase games with a credit card with a consumer protection plan. The credit card company refunds your money if the store doesn't. If you're not old enough, then ask your parent or guardian to do it and give them the money for the game.

Re:It's the "EULA"

[Jane Q. Public]

I could be wrong, but as a long-time developer myself, I think it us usually the publishers who pull this kind of thing. Developers don't care who or where you are, as long as you paid for the product. Marketers do.

Blow out of proportion.. much?

[Shritish]

This is getting blown out of proportion. This isn't some sort of extra ad-ware program that installs itself with Hellgate: London, this is a method of changing the texture for in game objects, like a sheet of paper on the wall, or a can lying on the ground, to display a specified picture. This doesn't effect entire objects in the game as the article claims, I doubt it ever will. If it did, I think people would become a bit enraged and then we could start the lynching process.
As it stands, everyone is making something out of little to nothing. I appreciate Slashdot looking out for peoples rights to be free of corporate harassment and all, but these guys have a lot of ground to cover on a game such as World of Warcraft, or even Eve: Online. If a few hardly noticeable ads are in the game, then what difference does it make? Oh.. they'll be able to fund more money for Q&A and development. Which aren't big issues at all, right?
With games these days.. people are finding more and more reasons to despise them. If a few posters with nVidia on them in a railway station bother you that much.. I'd recommend never using any real train station. You'll feel the instant need to smother yourself in hand sanitizer.
If you don't like the game, or its method of doing things, go back to playing World of Warcraft. Not like they couldn't use the competition anyhow.

Re:Blow out of proportion.. much?

[LingNoi]

Using my internet connection to download adverts without refunding me or giving me some of the money they're making from the advertising is a big deal.

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

On the other hand, Hellgate London demo was a real yawner. Very disappointing. Unplayably buggy in the gameplay department (everything else ran smoothly though) - I literally reached a dead end along the linear path that I had to take to get to the next zone and complete the main questline, which I assume upon completion the demo would end. Went back, and could find no alternative path through either of the last two areas on the path.

You reached the end of the demo. I've been playing in the actual beta, and where you reached a dead end, there is normally a portal to the next station. But, in all fairness, it even told you before you downloaded it that you got a demo of "Holborn Station", which is basically just the first 5 levels.

Besides not being able to go further than Holborn Station, what did you think of the actual gameplay? Wasn't it a tremendous amount of fun?

IP

[sh3l1]

From the EULA:

Massive may collect your Internet protocol address and other basic anonymous information...

How is an IP address even close to anonymous?

Re:IP

[Pax681]

they are closing threads on this in the forum even though people are not happy. i play games to GET AWAY from ads and all that crap. NOT to have to put up with them in a game i play for fun... EA= ASSHATS

Re:IP

[AHumbleOpinion]

How is an IP address even close to anonymous?

US Courts have ruled they are not, and that when non-personal information is associated with personally identifiable information the non-personal now becomes personal and subject to an complex array of legislation and court rulings.

You let them manipulate you...

[Ardeaem]

Since these are basically subway stations, you expect to see ads there, and they aren't obtrusive at all, so they feel like part of the environment rather than being a jarring experience.

Hellgate is not the game to make an outrage over, because the ads in it are so tastefully done that they feel right. Simply because you don't notice the ads doesn't mean they don't effect you. The ads in the game are subtly changing your outlook towards the product being advertised. In fact, it is better for them if you don't notice them. You are being taken advantage of all the time by advertisers, and the fact that people now accept this as being normal is very sad.

When you start thinking of advertising as normal and even part of an enjoyable entertainment experience, you have given companies an open-ended invitation to manipulate you. You may think you are immune, but you aren't. They use tried-and-true psychological principles to ensure that large numbers of people think of their product just a little more positively.

Don't let them manipulate you. Tell them when you pay for entertainment, you expect to be treated with a little more respect, not as simply a marketing target.

By the way, if you MUST have ads to feel at home in a virtual environment, the folks at Rockstar games did it right in their GTA series. They created fake ads that were funny, added to the environment, and did not try to manipulate you into buying some existing product.

What info is reasonable to collect?

[AHumbleOpinion]

It is perfectly understandable that a developers needs some information indicating what kind of hardware their customers are using. If it is collected anonymously, no account or character name nor IP address, is there any objection to info such as:
CPU model and speed
Video card and VRAM
Sound card and speakers
Operating system and version
Physical RAM
Removable media, CD or DVD
Note that this kind of info is so generic that your particular permutation will be shared with many others, rendering it depersonal.

Yes, I agree that IP addresses, applications installed, and peripherals connected are a different story. Assuming of course that by peripherals we are not talking about a DVD drive or speakers. Those seem relevant. The make and model of my printer or scanner would not be.

I'm curious to hear what others have to say. I had a business law class recently and researched the handling of personally identifiable information (PII) as a class project. It is my understanding that the list I offered above (CPU to DVD) would not be considered PII as long as there is no way to associate the info with an IP address, account name, etc. Anyone not wearing tinfoil vigorously disagree?

Re:What info is reasonable to collect?

[Remnant44]

You think you're going to find people arguing on slashdot who DON'T have tinfoil hats? :P

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

I'm in the beta, and the NDA just lifted yesterday, so here are some screenshots. The ads are very unobtrusive. The game takes place in London, 2038, after hellgates have opened and demons have killed 99% of the people on the earth. So, having posters appear on the walls of dirty, blasted out subway tunnel walls fits in very well with the theme of the game. The posters are so dingy you can barely read them unless you look close, and it matches the post-apocalyptic feel of the game to see ads from the "past." Judge for yourself:

Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3

As far as the gameplay goes? This game totally rocks! Imagine if Diablo and Half-Life 2 had a baby. A demon and zombie infested, mutant loot pinata of a baby... Basically, you can hack and slash if you want to, pew-pew with spells if you want to, or shoot guns like an FPS if you want to. It's Diablo in full 3d, by Bill Roper and most of the guys from Blizzard North that created Diablo 1 and 2. There is single player and online multi-player. The online multi-player is instanced like Guild Wars, where only the towns are public. It's one hell of a lot of fun, and completely addictive, just like the original Diablos were. Imagine Diablo with full 3d, a physics engine, and exploding barrels ala HL2.

I think you're going to be hearing a lot of good things about this game.

Re:Just give in.. Sooner or later you will anyway.

[evil_aar0n]

Oh, you still have your freedom: the freedom not to buy it, which is what I plan to do.

EA wants it both ways

[Elyscape]

Normally, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this. In-game ads are, IMO, fine so long as they don't detract from the atmosphere or invade your computer in any significant way. In other words, the ads should at least be plausibly valid in the context of the game (so no advertisements for, say, computer parts in a medieval game, but feel free in a modern game).

My problems are as follows.

1. The ads, at least those in the demo, don't fit at all. I saw a faded ad for some movie to be released in 2032, which was fine. What wasn't was the nVidia ad right next to it. It was very obviously anachronistic and, frankly, utter bullshit.
2. This software is a bit too invasive. Read your software and hardware configuration? Fuck you. If you're only monitoring what I do in-game and how long I look at each, that's fine. But the instant you start looking at things outside the nice sandbox of your game, you have crossed the line. Fuck off and leave me alone.
3. They're already making extra money! If you want the extra features and content, you need to pay a monthly fee! And now they're trying to turn our eyeballs into checks? Choose one or the other, not both! If you're going to charge a monthly fee for parts of your game, don't force advertising on your customers! And if you're going to force advertising on your customers, you damn well better give them all the content you have for free.

This is such bullshit. While in-game advertising doesn't have to suck, EA seems intent on ensuring that it does.

Re:EA wants it both ways

[cytg.net]

indeed .. i was looking forward to trying this game .. too bad.. if only 3D virtualization had come far enough i could spawn a virtual "Hellgate-XP", but until that is happening .... no fucking way.

Re:Unobtrusive

[Hemogoblin]

Maybe it's my monitor, but those screenshots are so dark I can't even see the ads if I squint and look real hard. I even closed the blinds and I still can't see them.

Do "elite" accounts have ads?

[hlomas]

I'd find it amusing if you have to purchase the box and pay $10 a month to have ads in your game.

This is a good warning

[Sir_Sri]

This is a good warning for that tiny fraction of the population who think the EA acquisition of bioware/Pandemic might be a good thing.

This is the EA future: Take a promising product from well reputed developers and infect it with garbage the end user doesn't need, want, and definately should not have to pay for.

I don't care who thought this up, whether it was Namco-Bandai, EA, Flaship or someone else, it shouldn't happen.

As a side note I don't as such object to developers looking into what hardware I'm running on like Steam (not that I actually use steam so this feature may have changed). Knowing what users can handle and what they will be able to handle in future is important, esspecially for MMO or otherwise lasting products, but the manner of collection matters.

ObPennyArcade

[xant]

This is how it works, a simple reference chart.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/05/11

Re:Unobtrusive

[hedwards]

Those don't look too bad at all, it took me a bit to realized that dark horse comics wasn't an in game faux brand. If they scrub the personally identifying information out of the gleaned data and use the money to keep the cost of the game down, I don't think I could see any further objections.

This doesn't appear that much different than back when all in game advertising was purely ornamental. I remember play duke3d and seeing tons of posters and ads which were just created by designers to further the atmosphere. I can't imagine the game being ruined if the posters were similar to these ones.

I'll probably download a demo copy and see for myself. But this really doesn't appear to be as nefarious as some of the other comments have indicated. Probably the biggest thing is just making it a bit more clear what the actual privacy policy is.

Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

I once even bought a game at Electronic's Boutique then when they wouldn't take it back, I took it back to Babbages and they were cool with it. So you're saying you bought a game from a company whose returns policy sucked, and rather than let them deal with it you let them keep the money and instead exploited the goodwill of a company with a more reasonable returns policy? (*)

As far as I'm concerned, this nullifies any right you have to bitch about draconian returns policies or lousy customer service. It's this sort of behaviour that probably led to the killing off of more reasonable store return policies (if not the stores themselves) and encouraged- and justified- the proliferation of those that treat their customers like assholes.

People like you are the reason that we're not living in that "dream world" any more. (**)

God spoke to me. If I was God, I'd have called you an asshole.

(*) Yeah, I'm waiting for a self-justifying whine along the lines of "they could re-sell it". Like it should be their problem to re-sell your secondhand crap in exchange for "returning" your money that they never received in the first place.
(**) Pre-empt #2; Yes, everyone else was doing it too, and it wouldn't have made any difference what you did as an individual. Whatever.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

If you'd read the article you linked to, you'd have noticed that EB and GameStop didn't merge until 2005. And the principle applies regardless; if a company learns that a goodwill policy leads to them being exploited, they're less likely to apply it in future.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Rallion]

People like you are the reason that we're not living in that "dream world" any more.

Your logic is completely off. He returned the product elsewhere because the point of sale had already denied him. They were ALREADY treating him like an asshole, therefore, due to the unidirectional movement of time, his elsewhere-return can't be the cause. In fact, if you REVERSE your cause and effect, you have a much more accurate relationship.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

Your logic is completely off. He returned the product elsewhere because the point of sale had already denied him. They were ALREADY treating him like an asshole, Uh.... *yes*. That was the first half of my argument!

Let me restate it for you. He bought the game from the company with the asshole return policy who wouldn't give him his money back. (They get to keep the money). He then exploited the goodwill of another company with a more lenient returns policy (costing them time and/or money even though they never sold him the game nor made any money off it in the first place).

The "asshole" company learns that their policy pays and prospers, the "good" company loses out. Repeat often enough and over time Darwinian forces ensure that the asshole companies are more likely to survive, and that either the good companies go under- or they change their returns policy to something less favourable.

therefore, due to the unidirectional movement of time, his elsewhere-return can't be the cause. In fact, if you REVERSE your cause and effect, you have a much more accurate relationship. Stop trying so hard to appear clever. Even if your assertion about my logic had been correct, you could just have said I was confusing cause and effect..... no need to waffle about the movement of time, elsewhere-returns and so on.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[SP33doh]

I like your asterisks, you clearly know how to slashdot.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Snaller]

""God spoke to me."
If I was God, I'd have called you an asshole."

If there is a god he shouldn't be throwing with stones.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Eivind]

Good point. Though my opinion of the behaviour would change sligthly if he also made it a point to in the future purchase stuff exclusively from the shop with the good return-policy. For added bonus, let them know.

I know I spesifically bought gear from Mindfactory in Germany, even when they wheren't always the cheapest supplier. Reason ? I twice had problems with stuff bougth from them. In both cases they stepped on the problem as if it actually *mattered*. Having an online store take your word that a hard-disc is bad, and ship you a new one, in overnigth express shipping, so that you can copy stuff over before returning the old one -- all at their expense -- is downright impressive.

Add in customer-relations people who have a clue and aren't mere salesdroids and you get one happy customer. It's very refreshing sending an email and asking for recommendations for a new laptop, mentioning that it's for Linux (Ubuntu), and get back a suggestion that includes: "Unfortunately you'll need a binary-blob driver for full support of the FooBar widget, there's a open driver included in Feisty though, so the problem will solve itself in that timeframe" (this was back when the first beta of Feisty was just becoming available)

You don't know if a shop is any good until you've experienced how they act when things *don't* go smoothly. When you like a shop -better- after having had problems than you did before having problems, they're doing something right.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Puls4r]

While I agree with your thought in theory - i.e. don't buy from stores that have return policies like that, I disagree with it in practice. Where I live (Michigan), neither Meijer, Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, Kmart, EB, or any of the other stores available to us will accept software returns once they have been "open" - except for store credit. If you can come up with a chain store that accepts returns, I'm all ears. There aren't really any mom-and-pop stores around here anymore - they're all out of business or don't take returns of ANY sort on software. So before you condemn him - give him some options. Otherwise your just preaching.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

Electronics Boutique and Babbages are the same company. Not at the time the incident took place they weren't.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out that the situation *might* have been different almost 20 years ago, or that they were probably once different companies. And it'd take another 30 seconds to "do some research" as you suggest:-

next time do some research before impugning someone without cause. Yeah, that's a nice irony. For one thing, this issue has already been raised, so you clearly weren't paying much attention yourself.

And neither was the original poster- he linked to an article, but obviously hadn't read it, as it made clear that the merger took place years after the incident in question.

Didn't take me long to spot that, but at least I made the effort and "did some research". Which is more than I can say for either of you.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[Dogtanian]

While I agree with your thought in theory - i.e. don't buy from stores that have return policies like that, I disagree with it in practice. Then you missed the point I was making.

Where I live (Michigan), neither Meijer, Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, Kmart, EB, or any of the other stores available to us will accept software returns once they have been "open" - except for store credit. We were discussing an incident that took place 20 years ago- and my criticism wasn't that he bought it from a shop with a "no returns" policy. It was that he took it to another unrelated shop which had a much more lenient returns policy and exploited their goodwill to get "back" his money that they had never received in the first place.

Multiply by thousands, and you know why shops don't have such lenient policies any more.

If you can come up with a chain store that accepts returns, I'm all ears. There aren't really any mom-and-pop stores around here anymore - they're all out of business or don't take returns of ANY sort on software. So before you condemn him - give him some options. He *had* his options back then, he chose to screw the "good" company over, so frankly he doesn't deserve shit now.

Re:Darwinian response to exploitation by customers

[StalinsNotDead]

exploited the goodwill of a company with a more reasonable returns policy?

I wouldn't say goodwill was exploited. The other store probably figured (correctly, had this been me as the customer) that displaying goodwill like this might just snag a customer from a competitor. Like grocery stores accepting coupons from other grocery stores. (I don't know if anyone does this anymore though) It gets traffic in the door, and probably more sales.

Re:Unobtrusive

[ThirdPrize]

I know ... slippery slope ... yadda ... yadda, but if a game is set in the london underground then there has to be ads. It is just part of the scenery down there. Depending on the ad, wouldn't it add to the realism if the ads were real? I mean all those car racing games come with realistic reproductions of flash cars. You would complain if they didn't. Unless you are going for the comedy angle and sending up adverts, which would be best? A real ad or an ad for something you had no connection with?

As for the IP address gathering. Anyone complaining about that probably has cookies turned off by default and doesn't use Google for precisely these reasons. What are they gathering that isn't given away by a browser anyway?

Created a survey to answer question ..

[AHumbleOpinion]

I decided to formalize my curiosity and create a survey. Thank you for your participation. I'll post results back here at some point.

Click Here to take survey

To all of those saying "It adds to the realism"...

[hsoft]

If EA was actually putting those ads "because it adds to realism", there would be an OPTION to disable the ads in-game. This is like everything corporate. Give them your hand, they will take your arm. This is only the beginning...

Advertisers should host servers

[__aawdrj2992]

I never understood why advertisers and publishers want to slow down the servers with ads when they could instead host low ping servers (relatively low cost/ month). Many games let clans put up an image in the loading screen, so why not have the advertiser pay for the price of hosting the server and just put a banner ad in the loading screen? Instead of being an ingame nuisance, they could turn it into a positive.

You have come far weary traveller...

[MrSteveSD]

"Perhaps I can interest you in this very reasonably priced enchanted Viagra. Oh you're not interested in Viagra? Well perhaps I can help you in your quest to retrieve the mighty blade KitchenDevilbre. In order to complete the quest you will need this magical book. Just go to the section on magical swords. Of course, before you can reach the index to find the relevant page, you will have to flip through about 40 pages of adverts."

Suddenly Eula the city Sheriff interrupts your conversation

[Eula] - "Greetings young knight. I detect the presence of photoshop. Do you actually have a licence for it?"

Fake ADs

[nurb432]

Sure, a 'virtual billboard' should have an advertisement to keep with the theme of the game, but it should be a fake one, not a 'paid slot'. ( unless the entire game is 'ad funded' or some other such nonsence )

I still remember the billboards in pole postion...

Re:Fake ADs

[Loke the Dog]

Meh, fake ads are lame. I not only accept real ads, I demand them, and I don't care if the developer get's paid for them.

exactly, you HAVE to buy it for it to matter

[TheAxeMaster]

An email saying you won't buy their game doesn't mean shit to them. If you buy it, don't open it and return it, the retailers see the backlash directly. Then maybe they will talk to the distributors, who talk to the publishers. They won't really care any other way because enough people will buy the game and keep it that a few angry emails won't matter to them.

not sure what the complaining is about

[ImTheDarkcyde]

Cry cry cry cry cry. Is that all anyone does when it comes to advertiseing? They get your IP addres, whoopty doo, they can give me ads about arizona instead of maine. They know what kind of video card I have, whoopty doo, they can give me ads about nvidia instead of ati. They know what size my harddrive is, whoopty doo, they can try to sell me a bigger one.

No one is asking for your social security address, your street address, or your first born.

Re:not sure what the complaining is about

[urbanriot]

Some people on here might have you believe that they are...

No one is asking for your social security address, your street address, or your first born.

Re:Mod parent up!

[bob.appleyard]

It's XKCD, of course. Here's a link to the comic in question.

Re:Unobtrusive

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ad was even more obtrusive than the in-game variety.

browser/monitor/you

[Animaether]

seriously, you should be able to see those images just fine. It's either your browser software (different display settings for images?) your monitor (bad gamma setting?) or you (bad vision?). For your sake, I hope it's one of the first two.

This is a fair place to start with regards to option 2 (gamma setting)
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html

( now there's an informative post )

Re:Unobtrusive

[earnest murderer]

and use the money to keep the cost of the game down BWAhahahahahahaha HAHAHAhahahahahah HAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahah

I'm just saying , the cost of the game is the same as any other. If they port it to a console you can bet your ass it'll have the same 30% console sucker tax that every other game has... Scratch that, it'll be in the bargain bin by the time it makes the 360. So that becomes a %50 console tax.

That's on top of the subscription fees.

Not that I have a problem with it*, but they should just call it what it is... The Bill Roper Lamborghini fund.

*actually I do, but not enough to make a fuss about it.

You are wrong

[SmallFurryCreature]

Realism? Okay, how about this. In the real world if I am in a nightclub area I can see all kinds of neon signs for brands of beer. In game, there will be ONE advertiser. One brand. Realistic? No.

In the real world people deface ads. Will an advertiser allow that? No.

In the real world I ignore ads, they are part of the background noise, if that is the way they are in games, then what is the point. No, they might start with a small poster but it will get bigger and bigger and bigger. Walk around in Second Life for a while to see what runaway advertising means.

This won't make games more realistic, not ad all, if that were the case then racing games would NOT have to seek a license to place the real ads on the track, they would be paid to do so. But an advertiser is going to want his ad to more then a blurr as you pass by if he is going to pay for it.

Do you really want female hygiene ads during your assault on the beaches of normandy? That is where this is heading. Same as ads everywhere else are getting more and more intrusive.

Re:Unobtrusive

[QuietYou]

Didn't notice the ads really, but maybe that's because I was too distracted by the god awful lighting and shadows.

In "Screenshot 1" look at the character named Dotter. The lighting on her face and clothes would make you think the light source is to her right, but the shadow she casts on the floor is the complete opposite of where it should be for that light source. Looks terrible.

On the subject of ingame ads...

[samwh]

The worst ingame ads I have ever seen were those in Counter Strike 1.6: http://www.csnation.net/viewnews.php/8645/ The few screenshots there speak for themselves. Also, unlike in other games where you can avoid ads simply by running custom content, in CS 1.6 ads are automaticially placed on any texture area large enough. If this wasn't bad enough, the ads also can have no decals placed on them (bulletholes and blood), which is a huge problem in a game like CS where seeing blood on a wall is often the only way to indicate that you have hit the enemy successfully. I just wanted to share an example of how NOT to do ingame ads. Hellgate's ads seem fine in comparison, since they are only in the "Town" areas, which are just subways where you would expect to see the ads, and they make them blend in well. Although it is still BS if they are going to make you pay a monthly fee and show you ads, it should be one or the other.

Doesn't Send The Right Message

[Jane Q. Public]

But then the software publishers get their money anyway, and don't get the message that people don't want their product as-is.

Re:Doesn't Send The Right Message

[coolGuyZak]

I was assuming that you wanted to protect yourself from shrinkwrap licenses, not that your intention was to send a message to game publishers. My bad.

Re:Unobtrusive

[MaineCoon]

Wasn't it a tremendous amount of fun? Quoted for sarcasm.

That's not how it works

[tkrotchko]

"Perhaps use some of the revenue to release extra content for the game."

More revenue means more profit, not more "stuff" for the buyer. Your transaction is done.

Put yourself in EA's shoes. Anyway they can make more profit they'll do it. They'll kill kittens, throw your mother in jail, do whatever it takes to make more money.

Most games are mediocre. They're not horrible, they'll kill an afternoon or 3 with some fun. But they're pretty unmemorable. So you can go to Eletronic Gaming Stop and buy the latest mediocre game for $60. By the same token, hardly any gamers have played more than a handful of titles. For most gamers on a system, there are probably dozens of really good games that are a little older. I'm always curious why people won't just buy a used copy of a 1-2 year old game for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of new and actually have fun.

Now the game stores try to convince you that you should trade in your "good" old game for $5-10 which dries up supply, but it seems to me that there's always a way to get good 18 month old games for about $15-20, which is a way better deal than buying the latest bunch of junk from EA (for example). If you know an avid gamer, let him know you'll give $15 for any game he/she wants to get rid of and you'll build a library of good games for a fraction of what it costs new.

Re:Unobtrusive

[__aaclcg7560]

Besides not being able to go further than Holborn Station, what did you think of the actual gameplay?

How about getting a pat on the back for actually completing the demo? While the gameplay aspects are awesome, the reward for playing the demo is a bit lacking. I have to wonder why I would drop $50 USD for this game.

Blocking ingame advertising

[Cecil]

For anyone who's interested in blocking ingame advertising, I'm sure it will end up being a rapidly changing arms race as usual, but for the moment, blocking the following IP ranges is sufficient to kill updated advertising and privacy-invading "impressions" tracking from both of the major ad providers (IGA Worldwide and Massive Inc)

38.119.38.0/24 (Massive Inc)
65.55.179.0/24 (Massive Inc)
72.3.184.144/28 (IGA)
72.32.5.0/28 (IGA)

Massive does lookups on the domain madserver.net (imp.madserver.net, media.madserver.net, z.madserver.net, etc ad nauseum) to get its IP addresses, whereas IGA seems to use hardcoded IPs (there is no reverse-lookup for them either, although they are hosted by rackspace)

The massive blocks are enough to block advertising and impressions data for Enemy Territory: Quake Wars as well as SWAT4 and does not seem to have any effect on gameplay. They have been confirmed with tcpdump. The only other network activity (besides multiplayer) are simply checking for updates and registering with the master multiplayer servers at
demonware.net.

I am not so sure about the IGA blocks, that's mostly just information from forum posts, since I don't have Battlefield 2142 there's not much I can do to test it. Your milage may vary.

Question:

[greyhueofdoubt]

Does anyone know if this will ever be released for OS X? EA recently released a bunch of other games for OS X (to mixed reviews...), but I cannot find anything about this one. The game uses DX10, but the homepage explicitly states that the game is scalable to older systems- there's no reason that this game couldn't be ported.

-b

Re:Unobtrusive

[ianare]

Here are some other screenshots. I would say it's rather annoying! I like it better when they have fake ads in these types of situations if they feel it's better for the ambiance - Fallout is a great example of this done well.

screenshot 1
screenshot 2
screenshot 3
screenshot 4

Ads gallery

Re:Unobtrusive

[Krakhan]

No, it runs on XP too. See here for yourself

Except you can't

[Snaller]

In many countries you can't return a computer once opened (because you could just copy it) - and it it's not opened, does that count?

Instant gone

[cstec]

I had the game downloaded, but did an instant uninstall on the first ad.

That's just a datapoint for anyone else who thinks this is acceptable in either a demo or a paid-for game.

Sick greed that is what it is

[Snaller]

And when someone hacks it, they are sure to complain as well.

Re:Unobtrusive

[Snaller]

"The ads are very unobtrusive. "

Who cares - they retain the rights to snoop your entires system, something which is none of their damn business. Greedy idiots.

"Imagine Diablo with full 3d, a physics engine, and exploding barrels ala HL2."

I shall imagine someone will crack it an remove the evilware. Otherwise I hope it dies quickly.

Massive... Linux to the rescue

[Tibor the Hun]

Massive, being a MS owned company, does not make a Linux client.
ETQW which just got a Linux "version" does not display the in-game ads, as the ETQW Windows version.
Just another reason why I now run Windows-free, and am ecstatic about it.

Re:Massive... Linux to the rescue

[Cecil]

I'd tcpdump it just to make sure it's not sending the data anyway, but that is good to hear. I spend most of my time inside my VMware Ubuntu desktop, but the host OS is Windows so I can play games, alas. VMware unfortunately doesn't seem to handle 3D acceleration too well. (Also, getting vmware installed on Linux so I could do the reverse is way beyond my skills - yes, I've tried. Several times. It's not a friendly process)

Re:Unobtrusive

[Hossicle]

Dude, Press K. You have skill points.

I'm a beta player

[MMaestro]

I'm in the Hellgate beta and the NDA clause was really strict with the official forums being for beta testers only, no screenshots or in game videos allowed, and the general catch-all "you cannot talk about in game content" phrases. I say 'was' because the NDS was lifted just last Friday.

That said, there ARE ads in the game, but contrary to popular belief, the ads DO NOT appear after you leave the stations (read: towns). Unlike the Battlefield 2 ads, which were over sized and overly bright in many cases, the ads in Hellgate look like they've been covered in several layers of dirt from sheer disrepair. The ads in Hellgate are roughly the same size as a standard promotional movie poster and not obvious at all. Its not unheard of to find a beta player who simply never noticed them either because their graphics are turned down or because they don't spend much time in town, no thanks to the sheer lack of lighting in some portions.

Its happened before.

[cluffenstein]

Look at the other EA games out now, all the need for speed underground games, Most Wanted, and Carbon all have ads, abit not ones based on your computer usage, but their still ads. BF2142 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas (if I remember right) all have ads in it, and the game boxes include a warning that says "ads will be displayed in this game, based on your computer usage." If I was playing BF2142 and an ad for playboy popped up, then I would be worried..

But shouldn't we be concerned?

[ari wins]

Gameplay and playability issues aside, I think there's more to fear here. Massive Inc., the company running the advertising service for HG:L, is owned by Microsoft. When you agree to the EULA, you're allowing them to collect "technical and related information that identifies your computer, including without limitation your Internet Protocol address, operating system, application software and peripheral hardware." Information they are free to share with third party vendors. There are some good reasons to have this sharing of information, but the depth of what they are collecting, plus the likely widespread use of it, is what prompted me to submit this article.

I honestly thought the direction of responses was going to lean more towards privacy concerns, rather than how to return a video game.

Re:But shouldn't we be concerned?

[dynamo]

The whole point of return the video game is to make consumer privacy concerns into corporate financial concerns, so they will be paid more attention.

This is all about privacy.

I Love this show

[jftitan]

I love this show....

Re:Unobtrusive

[Pofy]

>What are they gathering that isn't given away by a browser anyway?

There is a difference in gathering and saving for other use and something being avialable (for example to communicate). The privacy policy, by the way, specifically claims the IP address is information that can not be used to identify somsone (they actually tend to use vague terminology such as "may", "generally includes" and so on though). SOmeone should tell them about how other organisations managed to use the IP address to identify people looking for thos commiting copyright infringement.

Enemy Territory: Quake Wars to have ads, too

[SethJohnson]

id's latest game, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars is ramping up in-game advertising. All the levels contain conspicuous billboards and posters that will dynamically update with banners. Currently, they display joke recruiting posters.

When the real ads appear, I plan to script global tells that will promote competitor's products. I've read talk that people will code proxies to filter the ads once they appear. Oh, it's published by Activision, not EA.

Seth

One Time Fee! Times Three!

[soldoutactivist]

$50 bucks is not a reduced sale price, so say people with three digit + 20 IQs. And asking for more money to play the "better" version of online play is like your girlfriend asking you for Mall Money halfway through blowing you. And if your girlfriend dropped to her knees every time she wanted money from you, you'd eventually call her a bitch whore and send her on her way. After she finished this last time, of course. At least you were getting something from that relationship you might have enjoyed, even if you hated yourself afterwards.

With Hellgate, they tell you to bend over, patiently smile while they shove a bad game up your ass, then rape you emotionally by taking pictures of your naked computer and showing it their friends at the pub. Which ends up with one of the drunken friends knocking on your door at 3AM one night (read: advertisements). And after you've struck a tentative balance with the single player version, they lead you along by giving you a little bit of the swinger online play (As in, the single player version will the same mission types, goals, and gameplay, but without actual story), and don't call until they want you to get on your own knees and pay for the just-as-bad online play with the other stupid crack whores. That's one sad orgy.

Online storage + extra stuff + guild creation + vehicle + skimpy outfits for chicks + sink + toliet + the ability to speak a real world foreign language instantly isn't worth shit unless you enjoyed the game to begin.

And, sure, "If you don't like the game, don't buy it." That doesn't solve the problem of (1) crappy games, (2) stupid people who buy crappy game, or (3) people who make crappy games for stupid people. Because this isn't like Deer Hunter (um) 8. This is supposed to be a game for GAMERS, the lifeblood of the gaming industry. But they treat us like whores who swallow on command.

This whole "chick with low self-esteem" analogy is basically saying, if you can't see why this game is aptly titled "Hellgate" and will probably lead to the suicide of the current rarely and barely acceptable game quality, you deserve to be ass raped. Both financially and literally. And if some exec ever read this post, they would print and make it a memo sent to their entire company (as well as the other consortium of the other asstacular game company CEOs) with the header: HOLY SHIT THEY FOUND OUT ABOUT OUR PLAN!

You know what game I love: Civilization 1. You know what game I almost enjoyed: Civilization 2. You know game I entirely ignored: Civilization 3. You know what game I hate: Civilization 4. You can do the same thing with the Sim City series.

Re:Unobtrusive

[blackest_k]

The London underground isn't a "subway" in London. Yes there are adverts but also other interesting things. There is a definite style to the London underground, which makes it unique. Take a look at this page

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/tubeads.html

You mustn't forget the poetry either which is all over the underground. The underground is pretty much a historical site, part of the character of the city. If your going to use the underground for a setting you should endeavor to do it well.

It seems to be a missed opportunity to create really great atmosphere.

Mind the Gap ?

asking people to pirate the game

[Scudsucker]

I can see a lot of people, myself included, saying "well, they're going to be making money from pain in the ass in game advertisements, so at least the game itself should be free." Much like onerous copy protection schemes that provide an incentive to pirate the game (so it actually works and you don't have to have the damn cd in the drive to play).

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

In "Screenshot 1" look at the character named Dotter. The lighting on her face and clothes would make you think the light source is to her right, but the shadow she casts on the floor is the complete opposite of where it should be for that light source. Looks terrible.

It's still in beta, so they will probably fix some of the lighting issues. I just loaded up the game and took screenshots of the first station I happened to load into. Some of the others are lit differently, and aren't quite as dim.

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

Dude, Press K. You have skill points.

Haha true, but I'm saving them until I turn level 10 so I can buy better skills.

I've been playing the BETA, so I can speak on this

[vicious0000]

The only real add I have seen was a poster in the subway for Dark Horse Comics. It looked like any other poster in a subway for a product. It fit into the background of the game perfectly. Honestly, I don't see what the fuss is about. The game is fun. You don't have to pay a monthly fee, and you get online MMO play. I would assume the adds cover their bandwidth and server upkeep costs. I'd much rather see the adds than have them charge $15 a month like other MMOs.

It's not the ads - it's the EULA

[Woebringer]

The crux of the issue for me is *not* in game ads. They are not my favorite things on Earth to be certain. I think that in game ads are tantamount to commercials on Satellite TV; we have already paid once, why are we paying twice? The advertising in games, like on TV, is here to stay. We must choose our battles and that is one battle I don't see us winning.

The issue for me is the invasiveness of the EULA. Gathering information about other applications installed? No reporting to the user as to what is being gathered? Sharing information with whom?

I am not saying FSS or EA would do something nefarious with the information gathered. But agreeing to the EULA would give them
carte blanche to do so. What information I store on my PCs is my business and no one else's. If you need to profile/demo someone to feed them targeted ads, then please consider taking a survey at regular intervals. This EULA has stepped over a line. Giving someone unrestricted rights to gather data not pertinent to the running of their application, warehousing and sharing that data with God only knows who is not going to happen here.

At one point the Community Manager for Ping0 (partner of FSS) began locking threads on the subject and copy/pasted a response to the issue that I felt was uninformed and insulting:

"We all agree in one form or another for what we feel is our private information to be retrieved in many different venues. Do we like big brother breathing down our necks? Probably not as much as it happens. But our lives and lifestyles have all evolved to this. We agree to it at the foodstore when we swipe our discount cards, we agree to it everytime we use our bankcard and we agree to it almost every webpage we hit.
  So you can either shut yourself in and become a hermit or adapt and move on. This is life and so be it until... I will refrain from this becoming a political statement."

I found this the "official" response to be insulting and really bad form for a CM during what could be termed a PR issue. Once you get passed the insult and slant, there is the uninformed nature of the post. Cookies do *NOT* peruse ones hard drive and gather data about applications and peripherals installed. They share information about your web visits with other websites. The grocery card analogy is even more flawed. The grocery card gathers information about what is purchased at the times of sale. The card, store, or their partners do not enter my home and inventory my refrigerator and pantry under the premise of providing me a better shopping experience.

Based on the invasiveness of the EULA which grants unknown entities the right to inventory my PC and data and the very uninformed and insulting tact taken by Ping0's community management I will be skipping HGL. The beta was enjoyable. The ads themselves were tastefully executed and not out of place. I simply do not need the baggage or exposure that comes with it.

Re:It's not the ads - it's the EULA

[Telepathetic Man]

The EULA is actually nothing to extraordinary. They do the same thing for pretty much every public beta that I am aware of. How else are the programmers & QA employees going to be able to get accurate performance numbers for your computer. That's what a public beta is for, to test and gather metrics for the game before it is published.

Re:Unobtrusive

[prelelat]

yeah i don't know why they need to be so intrusive about the whole thing you don't need to collection of data to put up ads, just companies to buy in. I wonder if they keep the info for their own marketing or if they sell it to people? Companies should have an opt in policy when it comes to collecting data, but I guess I dream of a perfect world.

Re:Unobtrusive

[DrHogie]

Sure, we'll be hearing lots of good things about this game. ...in about 6 months time once they finally get around to ironing all the bugs out of multiplayer. I mean, when I party with someone, it kinda helps to be able to see their guy in my instance. If I'm lucky I'll see the floating name above their character -- but that only happens about 5% of the time. Rest of the time, it's like I'm fighting alone.

And that engineer drone bug. The one that deletes any equipment you give to the drone to make it useful. And the one where the stat points you assign to it reset themselves every time you log off/crash. Can't forget that one.

And all the out-of-memory bugs. And the hourly crash to the desktop.

But yeah -- if you can overlook all that, you'll be hearing a LOT about this game!

(Also note: It's 9 days before launch and all of these bugs still persist.)

Re:Unobtrusive

[petermgreen]

You reached the end of the demo.
Normally at the end of a demo you would put in some kind of indication that yes the demo had indeed ended. Such screens would normally also give you some more information about what you would get from the full version.

Not having that seems like a pretty glaring ommision to me.

Re:Unobtrusive

[openedge1]

I will agree with you...and even better...my 8 year old son was watching me play, and saw the ad for Dark Horse Comics...he goes..."Hey look, they have an old ad for Dark Horse" and laughed Even the 8 year old got the gist Cheers!

Just Say No

[Nom du Keyboard]

Just say no! When games quit selling, this crap will quit being part of them. If you buy it with it, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Re:Unobtrusive

[illumin8]

Sure, we'll be hearing lots of good things about this game. ...in about 6 months time once they finally get around to ironing all the bugs out of multiplayer. I mean, when I party with someone, it kinda helps to be able to see their guy in my instance. If I'm lucky I'll see the floating name above their character -- but that only happens about 5% of the time. Rest of the time, it's like I'm fighting alone.

And that engineer drone bug. The one that deletes any equipment you give to the drone to make it useful. And the one where the stat points you assign to it reset themselves every time you log off/crash. Can't forget that one.

And all the out-of-memory bugs. And the hourly crash to the desktop.

But yeah -- if you can overlook all that, you'll be hearing a LOT about this game!

(Also note: It's 9 days before launch and all of these bugs still persist.)

All of your points are valid, and I have experienced many of the same bugs. But they have publicly said that the beta build we are playing is about 4 weeks behind the actual build they are working on. I too have concerns about what the stability will be like at launch, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt and try it on launch and see.

I did try the single player demo and it seemed very stable, with no crashes or other bugs that I could see. Of course, it's only Holborn station and the first 5 character levels, so it's not that complex.

We'll have to wait and see, but this game has a lot of potential.

Changing out the ads in post-apocalyptic London

[StreetStealth]

Considering the ravages that have been visited on the city in Hellgate, where's the realism in having ads that change out every week? I mean, the urban infrastructure and commercial business is totally shot, so who's placing insert orders, designing creatives, and fulfilling placements? Demons who got laid off from their day jobs of terrorizing humanity?

Re:Unobtrusive

[IsoRashi]

I was playing in the beta for a bit and was pretty unimpressed. It's not a horrible game, by any means, but not worth my $50 let alone $15 a month. I had a lot of fun playing at first, then around lvl 19 they patched the game, deleted all characters, and the gameplay just was not enticing enough for me to make it very far. I since then cancelled my pre-order. I might buy the game when it goes gold, but they've got a lot of work to do in the meantime. My major gripes are the repetitive and simple (i.e. easy) gameplay and lack of variety for items.

Re:Unobtrusive

[CmSpuD]

I saw them just fine, 50% brightness and ~75% contrast on my lcd. It's bright enough, but not particularly pretty :P

Re:see that at OfficeMax

[Scudsucker]

Mod abuse much?

Survey Results ...

[AHumbleOpinion]

FWIW:

Is it reasonable for a game to collect the following information in order to design future patches, expansions, and games?

Unreasonable Don't Care Reasonable Responses
CPU model 21.2% (7) 18.2% (6) 60.6% (20) 33
CPU speed 21.2% (7) 12.1% (4) 66.7% (22) 33
Amount of RAM 21.2% (7) 12.1% (4) 66.7% (22) 33
Make/Model of Video Card 27.3% (9) 9.1% (3) 63.6% (21) 33
Amount of Video RAM 24.2% (8) 9.1% (3) 66.7% (22) 33
Screen Resolution 24.2% (8) 15.2% (5) 60.6% (20) 33
Make/Model of Sound Card 24.2% (8) 21.2% (7) 54.5% (18) 33
Speakers (Stereo, 2.1, 5.1) 30.3% (10) 21.2% (7) 48.5% (16) 33
Type of Media (CD, DVD) 24.2% (8) 21.2% (7) 54.5% (18) 33
Operating System 30.3% (10) 9.1% (3) 60.6% (20) 33
DirectX / OpenGL version 24.2% (8) 12.1% (4) 63.6% (21) 33

Modding down "naughty" words

[sowth]

It seems the taliban has mod points now. Any one who posts "naughty" words gets modded down to H-E-double hockey sticks. Fuckers.

Re:Modding down "naughty" words

[Scudsucker]

Well, it's gone now, so the cock gobbling shithead must have been negated by meta-mods. :)