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Training From America's Army Game Saved a Life
russoc4 writes "Most people who play the United States Army's freeware FPS sit through training simulations so that they may be able to get into the action and rack up some kills. The medic skills learned in the training allow you to heal teammates in the game, but it seems that they also apply in real life situations. According to Wired and the America's Army forums, 'a North Carolina man who saw an SUV flip and roll on a highway last November was able to provide medical aid to the victims with skills he learned from the America's Army.'" See? We learn things from videogames! Feign Death works sometimes, too.
Suck on THAT Jack Thompson.
Now I have a valid excuse to play violent games! Take that you game banning politicians!
And yes I am being serious.
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
See? Things like this are what make that MMO that NASA's considering developing less-than-ridiculous.
And if anything goes wrong, the guy AND the game makers will get sued for millions.
To me this seems like a propaganda story. Especially considering that the article mentions that this story comes from a press release.
All in the name of making an army recruitment tool seem like a benefit to society.
The other day it was late at night and my car broke down. I had forgotten my phone and wallet, and needless to say I was SOL. But thanks to my "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" training, I quickly dispatched an old lady in a station wagon who stopped at a nearby traffic signal, and drove home. Thanks "Rock Star", you saved my a$$.
It's usually pretty tough to sue someone for trying to help out.
Best Slashdot Co
America's Army is about squad tactics. About the only time you save a life is when you avoid shooting a teammate. This article makes NO sense to me, unless there's something about the later versions of AA that I don't know about.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Everyone should know basic first aid techniques. They aren't difficult and can make a big difference in an emergency.
At least learn how to control bleeding and perform CPR.
The best thing to do is to stop, observe, and call 911. Trying to do anything else in a car accident situation is almost always going to cause more harm than good.
And in the US, most states have good samaritan laws so that if you are acting in good faith, you are not liable. A few places have laws that compel you to render assistance as well, but they are normally only enforced on TV shows like Seinfeld.
The first aid training missions actually do cover some first aid basics that could save a life if its something simple enough.
He didn't go through sniper school too
http://greenobyl.com/ please.... think of the children!!
We have Good Samaritan laws that shield good samaritans acting in good faith from lawsuits.
-- My Sig is a P228.
"See? We learn things from videogames"
Of course we do.
We have issued propaganda, that validates the production of our propaganda!
Now, "this is your rifle..."
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
But keep in mind that if you're a doctor you're obligated to stop and provide help and the good samaritan laws generally don't apply because you've had sufficient medical training.
Human beings learn things in lots of different ways. People learn both correct and incorrect behaviour from watching TV for example. The trick is to learning how realistic the information and techniques you are getting are, and when they can actually be applied.
For example it's easy to learn the wrong thing from a TV show. Try and play MacGyver for instance and things might go pear shaped. More subtley here in Australia the number for emergency services is 000, but we have had critically ill people receive delayed medical care because people have dialed 911 after watching American TV.
Why should games be any different? They're interactive so if the simulation is accurate they should be better at teaching us how to react to a situation.
However like television, usually the primary reason people play games is for entertainment not education. I'm not a betting man but I'd be surprised if you couldn't pick up many many more skills by doing a weekend firstaid course than by playing Americas Army.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
For those of you who haven't played AA, Medic Training consists of walking into a classroom, sitting down, looking at the screen, and listening to a lecture. Then you take a multiple choice exam. So, there's a real possibility of learning something.
Do you think when that gets off the ground we'll be able to learn how to cure the space clap and other extraterrestrial sexually transmitted diseases? It is something that seems very important... at least according to Star Trek and other Slashdot fare. And, it might make anal probes and the goatse guy less scary.
Similar thing happened to me but the outcome was not so good.
A buddy of mine got knocked out when I threw a first aid kit and it hit him on the head.
And the shock paddles only made things worse.
If flesh eating zombies attack my house they're seriously fucked.
The above isn't as much care as a paramedic or hospital can provide, but good initial response is critical for the safety and health of the victim. If your airway is blocked and you are not breathing, you're facing brain damage within 5 minutes. If you get moved improperly when you have a spinal injury, you're more likely to end up in a wheelchair.
I spent 3 years as a volunteer ski patroller, and 3 years as a volunteer firefighter for a department which averaged a few first medical response calls a week. Sure, I've received a lot more training in the past than a one day course can provide - just my spinal management ticket alone took me a weekend. However, anyone with a recent one day first aid training course can be ready to stop a major bleed, apply CPR, and monitor vital signs so that paramedics know if the victim's condition is deteriorating. Most importantly of all, a trained individual can prevent some stupid and misguided untrained know-it-all (and many such idiots exist) from doing something stupid such as improperly moving a patient with a potential spinal injury, etc.
I strongly believe that everyone should at least have a basic level of first aid training, and carry a small first aid kit in their cars. I carry a lot more than a basic kit, but it provides me a higher level of comfort knowing that I'll have both the tools and the training that I need in event of an emergency. There is nothing sadder to hear than the story of parents whose child died from an incident that basic first aid training could have managed, but they either stood by helplessly, or even worse, exacerbated the situation with their improper efforts to help their child.
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
It fostered in me a desire to obtain basic medical skills. Just as it is helpful to be able to revive your comrad in the game, I thought it would be helpful to be able to render real aid to a person in an accident.
So I registered for an EMT-B certification class and after about 120 hours of class time and 24 hours of on-site training, I was qualified to take the exam and am now a certified EMT-B and considering pursing the certification all the way up to paramedic.
I will do it only on a volunteer basis - I already have a profession - but it is a worthwile skill and I am glad I obtained it.
Paxton Galvanek pulled one of the passengers out of the smoking car, then found another bleeding heavily from his hand where his fingers had been lost during the crash.
A very, very VERY important rule regarding assisting someone who is injured, and this applies to bike, pedestrian vs. car, car vs. car, and motorcycle accidents:
Unless someone's life is in IMMEDIATE danger, do not move them, especially if they are unconscious. Immediate danger means the car is on fire, for example, AND unconscious. If the are in immediate danger but conscious, ASSIST them (ie, help open the door or smash the window, cut the belt, etc but let them move themselves. If they are in no danger but conscious, encourage them to LIE STILL; shock keeps them from feeling injuries. Leave everything you can to those trained in what to do.
For example, the first thing bystanders LOVE to do is rip off a motorcyclist's helmet. Helmets are pretty snug and this causes a lot of pull on their neck/spine. If they've' got a neck/back injury, you can turn them from "I'll walk in a few weeks after an operation" to "I'll be in a wheelchair the rest of my life because you ripped apart my spinal cord trying to be a hero." The rule for helmets is simple: if they're breathing, it stays on. If they stop breathing, that takes priority. Some motorcycle riders are now installing inflatable bladders that harmlessly lift the helmet off their head and have a blood-pressure-cuff inflator attachment for the crew to use, and some ambulances are equipping themselves with the version that can be slipped up into the helmet.
Many riders put labels on their helmets that say "DO NOT REMOVE MY HELMET UNLESS I HAVE STOPPED BREATHING" because all of the idiot bystanders who think it's important to do.
Also: fire extinguishers are meant to be used to save people, not save cars. If you have someone trying to get out of a car that has a small fire in the engine compartment and you use up the extinguisher trying to put it out- now you have someone still in the car, a fire, and an empty extinguisher. If you have one, use it to protect people in the car should the fire spread far enough while someone else assists the occupants in getting out.
Please help metamoderate.
Actually, they do apply to doctors as well. Acting in good faith to the best of their abilities..
...a bullet hole in my head. No wait...bad example.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
It takes on the job training to learn the real lessons
I strongly believe that everyone should at least have a basic level of first aid training
And almost no one does. And what someone who either doesn't know what they are doing or did know and has forgotten would do more than likely will make the situation worse.
In the event of a car accident, the first thing the professionals do (and I am one, and you are not), is to stabalize the spinal cord. The first thing an untrained person would probably try to do is drag the person from the car, possibly killing them in the process.
just in case a civilian needs to emergency land a space shuttle?
Everything I needed to know about warfare and life I learned from Metal Gear. Yeah, that's right. The original.
You can infiltrate classified military installations by disguising yourself as an innocuous cardboard box. There's nothing more indispensable than a pack of smokes. And nothing in the entire arsenal of the Military-Industrial Complex is as singularly lethal as a ninja.
This particular stupid, insensitive male thinks you should go fuck yourself.
"Doctor, aren't you going to help?"
"No, ma'am, some guy on slashdot said I didn't have to."
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
"MMO that NASA's considering"
Link, please?
Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
Two guys, one case undocumented, learn crappy, inadequate first aid from a crappy, simulated lecture in America's Army and it gets a write up, even though the game is about efficiently killing people. I think that's terribly misleading, if not propaganda.
Great, he elevated the arm, but I hope he had good reason to move that other guy, because that was *really* dangerous (I'm hoping the smoke was in the passenger compartment and it was truly required, otherwise the guy should be smacked, not praised).
But did he know where the pressure point is on the upper arm? Did he know how, and especially *when*, to apply a tourniquet should there be a severed limb? Could he perform artificial respiration? How about CPR? The victim was LUCKY there wasn't a serious injury involved.
America's Army, the game, benefits no one but the military-industrial complex. If you want to save lives, and not end them, skip AA and get real training. The Red Cross is a "great place to start."
--
Toro
Why cant you aussies just forward 911 to your emergency number like other countries do?
I agree fully with you that all people, everywhere, should be trained to a basic level of first aid, even as far as making it a compulsory part of the school curriculum, learning to drive, or something along those lines that most people would not be able to avoid doing... However the point the grandparent was making is most people have no training AT ALL, and would probably try and pull the person from the car and do irreparable damage to the victim's spine, or worse. If you have had absolutely zero training at all you probably will do more harm than good unless you are either really, really, lucky or really, really, brilliant and should have been a doctor instead of a delivery driver....
[The Universe] has gone offline.
Not *technically* correct, at least as far as my training goes. Generally, yes, you leave the helmet on. Good rule.
IF you've been taught proper procedures though, the helmet will come off if the person is unconscious; you need access to the airway whether they're breathing or not. It does need proper training though, and shouldn't be attempted without it. (Unless, as you say, they've stopped breathing and are going to be dead anyway.)
Helmet removal, maintaining an airway on a casualty with suspected spinal damage etc are quite easy with the proper training, it's well worth doing a course if your first aid skills are already quite good.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
Yes. Yes it does.
See yesterday's /.
Well he did "learn" first aid from AA. In the real army when someone is hurt on the battlefield getting them out of the line of fire takes priority. Of course there is no line of fire in a car accident so it would be best to wait for the medics most of the time.
IF you've been taught proper procedures though, the helmet will come off if the person is unconscious; you need access to the airway whether they're breathing or not.
Why the hell would anyone on the side of the road need "access to someone's airway" if they're breathing, and said bystanders have no medical equipment (unless, of course, there's a Rescue Rodger on the scene.) The only reason you remove a person's helmet if they've been in a motorcycle crash is because you need to perform CPR to keep them alive. The risk of complete paralyzing them otherwise is far too great.
Please help metamoderate.
I used to be a firefighter. Please, if you have the fire extinguisher available and the fire is small enough to knock it out early: use it. Saving it until the end, as the OP is suggesting, won't work as the fire has now grown beyond the capability of your typical 5# dry chem extinguisher to put out. So please, use the extinguisher as quickly as possible and knock the fire out so people have time to remove the victim(s) properly.
We need some novelists, educators, engineers, and coders to recast the old trivium and quadrivium as games so that kids can do something valuable like "learn" without doing something boring like "learn".
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Is the argument then that military recruiting is a detriment to society? Would you prefer conscription?
Link, please?
Here you go http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/18/0329252
"...Sleep comes like a drug in God's country Sad eyes, crooked crosses in God's country..."
Many riders put labels on their helmets that say "DO NOT REMOVE MY HELMET UNLESS I HAVE STOPPED BREATHING" because all of the idiot bystanders who think it's important to do.
If they're so concerned for their spinal cord, why are they riding a motorcycle?
By that logic, everything the media says about video games causing violence and being murder simulators is true cause its doesn't come from the government.
The thing about tourniquets is this: If there is bleeding that is more than a mere scratch, apply a tourniquet. As in, the bleeding isn't likely to stop anytime soon by itself, and could be life threatening.
People seem to have a fear of tourniquets, but they can be left on for several hours without any damage. Put them about 2 inches above the wound, but not on a joint. Write the time on the casualty's head. Better to just put it on right away rather than using up the casualty's dressing on something that won't work anyway.
I don't like Linux. This doesn't make me a troll.
This is contrary to my first aid training. The rule I learnt (and this was a first aid course taken less than a year ago) was that if you find someone unconscious, you put them in the recovery position if (or once) they're breathing. The risk of someone suffocating is greater than any potential damage you might do to them in moving them.
I've just looked it up (DK First Aid Manual authorised by the British Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance, and St. Andrew's Ambulance).
The rule is:
(After the above, treat other conditions, such as bleeding)
Mod this guy up he has a valid point. What was 911 taken already? If I was on vacation in Australia and there was an emergency I would dial 911... how the hell would I know about 000?
Sometimes it's cool to be "different" sometimes you're just a pain in the a$$.
Why cant you aussies just forward 911 to your emergency number like other countries do?
Because our government is a bureaucratic mess.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
So do you have 000 divert to 911 in case any non-TV-watching aussies happen to visit the States?
This is contrary to my first aid training. The rule I learnt (and this was a first aid course taken less than a year ago) was that if you find someone unconscious, you put them in the recovery position if (or once) they're breathing. The risk of someone suffocating is greater than any potential damage you might do to them in moving them.
The advice is for bystanders, not trained medical personnel.
Context: fun for the whole family!
Please help metamoderate.
don't take first aid advice from /. comments. go get training or information from a more reputable source
note: +5 informative doesn't mean it's reputable
http://greenobyl.com/ please.... think of the children!!
Forward 911 to 000?
Please tell me you guys aren't buying into this crap. With the US at war, an all time low for military enrollment, and the army desperately trying to recruit people through a fucking video game, this is just propaganda bullshit.
Please someone recognize it for what it is.
True. . . but it's also true that, at least for MacGuyver, they were at least responsible enough to leave out critical ingredients or steps for dangerous things, and NOT leave things out for life-savers "improvised" for the show.
I told you a hundred times, playing games is healthy and also very educational.
...
;P
i'm so happy to have wasted my life playing! if it wasn't for games i wouldn't be able to handle a lot of real-life situations, like:
- alien invasions.
- being surrounded by zombie-demons while working on a base at mars.
- invasions by some team called the Counter Terrorists.
- having to shoot wireframe blobs and monsters while transformed into a sometimes ethereal, sometimes human-shaped pulsating blob. *
- a 2d conversion of the world (probably by some evil madman) that forces us to advance to the 'right' side of it only, while having to be on a vegan diet and kill spawned beasts by jumping on their heads.
- how to behave during a rave: eat all the pills i can find , while avoiding hitting the blue walls, and the ghost-cosplay clubbers (apparently those are infected with some mortal virus that can make me melt, creepy)
-
Thanks, video games!!!!!!
* = if someone had some difficulty finding what game is this, it's Rez for the Playstation2
On the other hand, if that fire gets to the fuel line, you could have a fuel tank explosion on your hands - it's not the fireball-o-rama that you see on TV, but it will throw the car into the air, and probably kill anybody still alive inside it. So if you can use the extinguisher to put out the fire, that might not be such a bad idea.
But if you've got a fire in a car, you should really be thinking about picking up anybody still inside the car and getting a couple hundred yards away from it as fast as possible. The best thing to do about a car fire is to be somewhere else, if that's at all possible.
... perhaps teach them that they are supposed to shoot the bad guys, and NOT their own teammates or innocent civilians ?
What they really mean by "America's Army saved a life" is that someone played the game and, based on that experience, realized how dumb it would be to enlist in the U.S. Army just to die for some greedy politicians' personal crusade.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Mod this guy up he has a valid point. What was 911 taken already? If I was on vacation in Australia and there was an emergency I would dial 911... how the hell would I know about 000?
There should be a single International standard. However take responsibility for your own actions. Traveling internationally and assuming that things work the same way overseas as they do in your country is dangerously stupid. Many countries distribute literature at the airports (welcome to such and such country) that outlines what the emergency numbers are, often outline unusual laws etc. For example if you came to Australia and tried to drive on the right hand side of the street, you'd probably be arrested and "sorry Id didn't know" would be a very bad answer.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Don't worry if you missed it. It will be back in a couple of days...
True. . . but it's also true that, at least for MacGuyver, they were at least responsible enough to leave out critical ingredients or steps for dangerous things, and NOT leave things out for life-savers "improvised" for the show.
Yes they made some rudimentary attempt but that doesn't mean that doing the things he did won't get you into trouble.
I was watching a couple of episodes with my wife last night. The character fixed a brake canister gasket with a piece of PVC. Not recommended even for a temporary fix unless you like driving without brakes. In another episode he was doing some rock climbing using techniques which would get you injured or killed if you tried them for real. I can remember in some other episodes he'd take a compressed gas canister and hammer off the value to turn it into a rocket. Again not safe. Leaving out some key chemicals when doing some of his more dangerous chemical tricks was nice of them but it hardly meant that you could expect reality to work the same way as his stunts in the show, or that it was safe to emulate any of the things the character did.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
At least he didn't learn from Battlefield 2! Teammate hurt? Throw first aid packs at his face and all wounds are magically cured! :D
Weaksauce as they say...
How is his answer wrong? He doesn't advocate dragging injured people out of a car when there is an accident. He advocates people getting and refreshing basic first aid training.
My Sysadmin Blog
> I agree fully with you that all people, everywhere, should be trained to a basic level of first aid,
> even as far as making it a compulsory part of the school curriculum, learning to drive, or something
> along those lines that most people would not be able to avoid doing...
Why not mandate that all who apply for a drivers license must have at least a basic first aid training
before they can get their license? Many countries already have such requirements.
And then, for crying out loud, fix your liability legislature. In this case, the proof of burden should
be reversed, so that the plaintiff has to prove that the defendant was acting against the training
he or she recieved in basic first aid training.
I've heard a ton of stories about lawsuits against doctors / hospitals due to negligance or whatever the lawyer wants to call it.
If I were a doctor in America I wouldn't go near a dying patient. I'd be bound to get the blame. It's that old adage, you can do a thousand rights, but one wrong and you are disgraced. Sadly, in todays world, I'd probably just walk on by lest there be a lawsuit if I tried to help and failed.
You know a lot of schools, and workplaces aren't even allowed to stock standard first aid plasters - just in case someone is allergic.
Yeah, thanks politics, you've done a great service. To the undertaker business.
kill a million. I call THAT a game... oh wait...
I'm just trying to help out anyone confused by what Zonk added. The animals referred to as "elk" in Europe ("elg" in Norwegian) are called "moose" in North America. The term "elk" in North America refers to a species of large deer (also called "wapiti") that are native to North America.
Knowledge is the small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify. (Ambrose Bierce)
I strongly believe that everyone should at least have a basic level of first aid training
And almost no one does. And what someone who either doesn't know what they are doing or did know and has forgotten would do more than likely will make the situation worse.
In the event of a car accident, the first thing the professionals do (and I am one, and you are not), is to stabalize the spinal cord. The first thing an untrained person would probably try to do is drag the person from the car, possibly killing them in the process.
The sad thing is that quite a few people with some training would do the same thing, because their training did not cover that. Indeed, the local American Red Cross CPR/First-Aid Instructor mentioned how there where some useful or important things she knew but was not allowed to tell us in the course because the American Red Cross forbids teaching certain things at the lower-level courses because they fear it may confuse the average person (average idiot).Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
Then maybe you should quit bitching on /. and do something about that!
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/18/0329252 Or you could just wait for the dupe.
I just read Slashdot for the articles.
Yea and Excitebike taught me how to ride a dirt bike and jump ramps.
I'm calling BS on this. While AA's game is pretty neat, it really doesn't add anything to the grand scheme of 3D FPSs that are out there. Other then being based on real life aspects and using real life textures the game itself is not very complicated.
Now, I highly doubt this NC man learned how to bandage a wound, brace a limb, attempt CPR and drag a person from a car was credited to a video game. Those things are pretty much common sense and most schools teach a style of CPR and basic medical attention and help in Health and PE classes. I went to school in the US and in around 8th grade learned this stuff.
Dave Sim reincarnated as a woman. I wondered what he would sound like when writing one of his misogynist essays from a female perspective.
Kidding aside, and to be fair, I've met the guy you're describing. For some reason, he's the guy many young women seem to be attracted to. I met one woman who told me that her sexual fantasy was to be raped by a bike gang, (but one in which all the bikers looked like a young James Dean.) We all live lives where we deal with that kind of thinking, and probably a lot more than once. --I've listened to many girls describe hideous relationships with such men, and what can you say? "Don't get into a relationship with a jerk?" Seems obvious, but it goes ignored. You can't really stop people from doing what they do; people need to go through the lessons they need to go through, and they need to deal with their karma, so these experiences will happen again and again, and they will seem to describe the entire world for that person until the patterns are completed. It's not a bad thing, it just is.
In a larger realm of automatic living, where people are managed like cattle, the war of the sexes seems to me a very well crafted conundrum, designed to perpetuate divisiveness and sadness. I've seen the fallout; there's a whole street in a town I once lived where somebody built a co-op housing development designed largely to help out women who have come from bad relationships; single moms and such. I answered an ad for a house to rent and was invited to live in this community. My room mate and I would have been two of the only men in the whole development.
I really like co-op living, having spent a few years in a condo once set up that way, where each participant's "rent" was really a mortgage payment, and where everybody takes on various tasks needed to keep things running. --Sort of like one of those communes you described, but peopled by professionals and built in a rural setting. This particular community had been around for about ten years, and I was looking forward to it, but my room mate backed out at the last minute. I didn't want to carry the rent for a whole house, so I found another arrangement elsewhere in town.
Anyway. . , I was later told by several people that I'd dodged a bullet. --I didn't realize at the time that the co-op had been set up primarily for women. There were apparently horror stories of other men who had lived there briefly. It was a community of B&T's, I was told. That is, "Bitter and Twisted" women who had been hurt and who ate men alive through expressions of anger and manipulation and all kinds of other nasty stuff. I'm generally a trusting person and I like helping people, and I'm good with tools and such and I offered these qualities up when interviewed. "What will you bring to the co-op?" I was told later that I was too nice and naive and that I'd have been eaten for lunch by angry women looking to pass on the abuse to others. --I disagree completely with this; it's absolutely possible to be a giving person who doesn't take abuse; it's a mistake to confuse openness with weakness, but still. . , I could definitely see that there might have been some difficult challenges in living in such a community. But people who have been hurt, male or female, don't need to be judged. ("B&T"?? What a horrible label!)
Anyway, it seems to me that what you are describing is the human who is only half-formed. It happens in female bodies as well, though it manifests differently. People need to develop both sides of themselves; their male and female side, so that they do not need a partner to fill the void, so to speak. Males who think from the reptile brain and have not broken through their automatic thinking, and who have not woken up to their female side often do, in the most negative cases, manifest in the ways you describe. The description for the female version of the same thing is somewhat different, but it is similarly long and discouraging. One of the goals, I think, of the human experience is to achieve
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Or I could just reload before replying. :(
I just read Slashdot for the articles.
"In 1991, the European Union established 1-1-2 as the universal emergency number for all its member states. In most E.U. countries, 1-1-2 is already implemented and can be called toll-free from any telephone or any cellphone. The GSM mobile phone standard designates 1-1-2 as an emergency number, so it will work on such systems even in North America. In the UK and Republic of Ireland, the number is 9-9-9 with 1-1-2 working in parallel." (from wikipedia)
So maybe there will be a worldwide standard someday!
The real irony here is that the car flipped because they were playing America's Army on their in-dash PC...
The fact that people can learn something useful from it makes it all the more regrettable that the Linux and Mac versions have been discontinued. America's Army only runs on MS Windows.
I would suggest that anyone with the remotest tendency to help in an emergency do one of two things:
- Stick to things that you can prove you were trained to do, or
- Get some really good legal advice first.
You may think that someone is going to die unless you do an emergency cricothyrotomy, but the Good Samaritan laws aren't going to help you if you try.Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Except that our rule is manual stabilization of the cervical spine until the patient is completely secured to a backboard. Those collars aren't all that.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Thank you! The reference deserved a link. I had already decided to Google it for m'self.
Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
I am not a doctor, but I'm interested in this stuff. Here is a link to a slide show I've found about how spinal fractures are spotted using radiography by the name of “Imaging Evaluation of Cervical Spine”. Of note are the types of spinal injury that one must be mindful of before moving an injured person. Most of the images are x-rays, which should give the reader some idea of how invisible yet dangerous this kind of injury can be. As has been noted, deciding if it is ok to move someone is definitely not for the layman and should be left for the professionals.
Wikipedia has some background info on how vertebrae are arranged for those of us who are new to this.
Actually, in Germany taking a basic course on "Life Supporting Measure at the Site of an Accident" is a prerequisite for getting a driver's license, and i never quite understood why this is not implemented in more countries around the world. It's less than a First Aid course, but a lot more than nothing. Also, traffic cops often check that your car has the obligatory first aid kit present, and that it is contains all mandatory equipment, and that they haven't expired yet. I have no idea whether all of this actually saves a lot of lives, but it's definitely a good idea, IMHO.
- Apply bodily substance isolation,
- Assess probable mechanisms of injury,
- Determine whether your patient(s) have a patent Airway,
- Determine whether your patient(s) are Breathing,
- Determine whether your patient(s) have a threat to blood Circulation,
- Assess patient(s) level of responsiveness,
- Then maybe, assuming nothing of greater priority sidetracked you first, then you start to consider spinal immobilization for those most likely in need.
Triage is another matter entirely, of course.Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Nice post, but I suspect that the GP's point was that *untrained* people would likely cause more harm than good. He's probably right, I don't have any statistics, but it's shocking how few people really know the rudiments of first aid (and keep up on classes which are offered free in many places). Anyway I did want to add something to your response:
I also feel that first aid courses that put a serious focus on vehicle accident response should be a mandatory part of obtaining a driver's license. I'd consider the first aid kit optional perhaps, but anyone who took the courses seriously would have one anyway.
If for no other reason (and there are others, such as getting more people trained, and I feel the same as you about that), it might make a lot of people think more seriously about just how dangerous the vehicle they are driving can be. I think we can all agree there are entirely too many ignorant people out on the roads.
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
well yeah, we all watch movies and the cars always catch fire in the movies and TV. Isn't that where people learn about important stuff like first aid and global warming from?
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
It varies by State in the US, but most States have 'Good Samaratain' laws that shield people who try to render aid in a crisis from any legal action at all. Ironically, if you're a licensed medical professional and screw up rendering emergency aid you have far more legal risk than an ordinary citizen doing the same.
The first emergency number was 999, in the UK. That was the first emergency number in use in the USA too. So, when the USA changes back to 999 rather than just being "different" for the sake of it you might have a point. Till then I suggest you shut the fuck up.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
There is an international emergency number for GSM, which also works on landlines in Europe (and, if I read this Wikipedia article correctly, the USA) - 112.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
AA was developed as an experiment to help developvideo-game-based training simulations to give people a leg up on army training. It is not the same a Halo, GTA, etc.
The real question I have is when al'Qaeda will discover that the US Army is handing them training material....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I do agree with sibling posters about the main question being not whether skills are being taught, but whether you're likely to use them.
That said, there's one more point I don't see mentioned here:
The medic stuff was explicitly training. As in, from the description, it very much sounds like the only thing he took away from this is trivia (lift their arms, etc), not actual practice (do America's Army medics have to actually simulate the motion of dressing a wound by moving their mouse in a certain way?)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Every state has a good samaritan law.
http://www.cprinstructor.com/legal.htm
Some are better than others, but most all protect you from liability if you attempt to help at the scene of an accident to the best of your ability and training.
I dub thee... Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, Beater of Ass.
Most people here might not realize that the First Aid training in America's Army is quite a bit more than you'd expect to see in a game. In order to qualify for certain ranks, the player must sit through a twenty or so minute lecture to provide them with some basic training on the subject. Following the lecture, a quiz is given, and in order to qualify, the player must "pass" the test. The game has multiple training "classes", with subjects including on friendly and enemy vehicles, first aid, and a few other Army-related topics I don't remember off the top of my head. It's not like he played a Medic in the game, running around throwing first aid kits at the wounded, and that let him perform well in this real-life situation. He participated in a bit of scripted training in game, with the dialogue being written based on real-life Army training. Some kid feigning death because he saw it work in World of Warcraft is just as silly as someone trying to break a brick wall by jumping headfirst into it. If you're kid is being "educated" by games that don't attempt to teach anything, perhaps your kids should be reading a few more books and playing a few less games? This story is a great example of how games can be used for educational purposes, reaching an audience that might normally not care about the subject or be interested in learning.
It appears from various news reports that one of the vehicle occupants was only slightly injured ... "pulled them from the wreckage" might not have been accurate, just a reporter looking for drama.
Far as I can remember it took like 20 minutes to complete.
Now imagine the benefit of having a mandatory highschool class that spans the school year and includes some hands-on practice on dummies.
Do not shoot the CO.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
How else am I going to steal their wallet?
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Methinks someone got dumpped recently........Talk about bitter, good laugh though it is(-:
Seriously, speaking as a Norwegian living in Australia, the US of A is starting to scare me. If not the taser wielding law enforcement officers, then the fact that you are discouraged from helping others in need. Can your society get any more selfish?
ISO certified == THX certified
The reason as I was told by my EMT instructor is that many years before the GS laws, EMTs, RNs, and MDs would stop to help. Then they started getting sued; to be honest I'm not sure what level of care they were getting sued for, but I'm sure it was almost always more helpful than harmful. So the professionals started driving by without stopping, and the death rate from accidents went up. Then the Good Samaritan laws were passed so healthcare professionals could stop without worrying about frivolous lawsuits.
I'm going to ask you a 100% serious question.
Do cars in real life ever explode? Have you ever witnessed this, or even do you know someone who has? Sure, cars can burn very quickly if a fuel line is ruptured, but you're talking about an explosion that would throw the car in the air... I don't think that happens.
And, frankly, I've heard the opposite of your advice several times. Cars burn, they do not explode.
Comment of the year
No, your steps are out of order. Spinal stabilization comes before ABCD in suspected trauma.
He said I was wrong because people should get involved because anyone with first aid knows what to do.
I said he was wrong because most people don't have any kind of training.
Everything else is irrelevant.
I think you are missing what was discussed. My first post was that most people are best off dialing 911. He said I was wrong because people should get involved because anyone with first aid knows what to do. I said he was wrong because most people don't have any kind of training. Everything else is irrelevant.
Like the 'ski patrol' with CPR training? And who are you - other than an AC?
I haven't attended a first aid course ever... It would have been fun to practise mouth-to-mouth with the girls in my high school class
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I believe that we changed it to reduce the number of false calls - 911 takes more deliberate dialing than 999.
I don't read AC A human right
Like start bitching anonymously? Or deceive myself that politicians will listen to what I have to say?
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I haven't attended a first aid course ever... It would have been fun to practise mouth-to-mouth with the girls in my high school class :)
They don't do that anymore. You practice on a sanitized dummy covered in a piece of throwaway plastic. Way too much chance of whoever runs the first aid course being sued if you catch something transmitted by saliva or blood.
It's worth the weekend doing a first aid course. The stuff you learn is interesting and it could save you or a loved on. I did one when my wife first moved in because she has severe allergies and there is a chance that one day I'll need to do CPR. (I don't need the excuse to kiss her. hehe) I really should go do a refresher. My certificate is no longer valid.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
This is why you should not take first aid device from a video game or /.
Never apply a tourniquet unless the bleeding is 1) immediately life threatening and 2) cannot be controlled in any other way. The best way to control bleeding is direct pressure - which can stop 99% of significant external bleeding. Tourniquets not only cause nerve damage, but if there is an amputation, they can cause ischemic damage to healthy tissue which may decrease the chance of a successful reattachment or make the ultimate amputation worse.
And don't worry, there is a law in emergency medicine: All bleeding stops eventually.
I think that he still has a good point that people should be trained. I'll admit that my first aid training isn't much better than what the boy scouts taught(before some later watering down), and I get it every year.
Still, I at least get the things like CPR, managing bleeding, etc...
You call 911 first, to get the responders rolling. Then you do what you can.
What you do in the 5 minutes before the first responders get there can save a life. Slowing down a major bleed, getting an airway cleared, performing CPR.
I don't read AC A human right
as a trained red cross life guard, when I saw the medical training in AA, the thought going through my head was "holy crap, it's the same thing I learned in life guard training."
I think that he still has a good point that people should be trained.Well. Ok. Are you?
The American Red Cross CPR training says to continue giving CPR until help arrives or until you get tired. Yes, that's right, until you get tired. So unless California is way off base here, I don't see how your #1 could be correct.
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
Seriously why aren't your 911 calls routed to your emergency number? Are you using 911 for something else or is it just to be different? You could keep both you know.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
we have had critically ill people receive delayed medical care because people have dialed 911 after watching American TV.
It's pretty sad; this is why several countries now route 911 to their local emergency number.
Not all of them, of course. In India, five or six years ago, a newspaper tested out the emergency phone numbers (100-103) by dialing them up to "report" an emergency. They never got through.
Does it matter if it burns or explodes? Either case is likely to endanger people inside the passenger compartment of the vehicle and cause death if the person(s) aren't removed from the vehicle or the fire controlled before it reaches the fuel.
I now see that you were responding to another post that was beneath my view threshold at the time. Your advice is sound and welcome, while his advice was... lunatic.
Perhaps the "more than a scratch" poster applied a tourniquet to his neck to stop a bad nosebleed?
--
Toro
Not to mention that pulling somebody from a car without first figuring out what their injuries are is a fucking bad idea, unless the car is about to explode (hint: it isn't, unless you're in a movie).
"And in the US, most states have good samaritan laws so that if you are acting in good faith, you are not liable. A few places have laws that compel you to render assistance as well, but they are normally only enforced on TV shows like Seinfeld."
The good samaritan laws only protect you if you do not exceed your training.
But Tom Cruise told me Scientologists are the only ones who can help. Why would he lie?
Meh, just make a macro. /s Medic, we need a Medic!
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
However, I'm willing to be convinced.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Well said. If we're going to start counting lives saved by such games, we also need to count how many people are killed because kids play this stuff, grow up thinking war is cool, then join an army and find out the truth.
In Denmark it has been obligatory to attend a 7-hour first aid course in order to obtain a driver's license for about two years now.
The most surprising part of this is that WoW players actually go outside, let alone encounter a moose.
Yes, but only when the fuel line and tank have been compromised by the crash (and the tank is mostly full), so it's relatively rare. They try to design them to stop it from happening.
A well recorded instance is the early Ford Pinto, where cost-cutting meant that the fuel system was easily compromised in a crash.
Note that it doesn't ash the whole car like in Hollywood - there's just not that much fuel in there. It's a shockwave and a new source of fire, that's all.
Here's a video of an exploding fuel tank in a Pinto.
I administer on a MUD called Shadows of Isildur http://middle-earth.us/ that is geared around role playing in Middle Earth some 500 years before the Fellowship of the Ring events occurred. One thing that is particularly fascinating about this MUD is its robust crafting system that allows one to do anything from mining, to jewelry making, armor smithing, gardening, apothecary work and so on. As of right now, there are over 3000 crafts on this MUD based on real life methods and techniques.
The techniques used and displayed within this scripted crafting system are the same that are used in real life. Interestingly, I've heard reports back from players who have described applying the gardening or cooking techniques in-game to real life applications with strong results. One player has described having prettier roses after applying the pruning techniques in-game. Others have tryed out the cooking methods with similar results. The same goes for wood carving and metal work. Personally, I've learned tons about herbology and jewelry work.
Hmmm...
I guess this means I'll be ready in the event Earth is invaded by those horrible Strogg characters.
Yes, Did you miss the second sentence in that paragraph?
For an admitably limited value of 'trained'. I'm no EMT, but I am trained on stuff like clearing airways, immobilizing broken limbs, handling eye wounds, CPR, bleeding, tourniquet, etc...
It's all about limiting damage until the real medics can get there. Or, if the area is dangerous, getting the casualty out of the area to the medic.
I don't read AC A human right
First Person Student?
Sorry, but your wrong, at least in my state. When I went through all of the Red Cross training we were told that you have a legal obligation to assist in a professional setting (i.e: I work at a hospital and would have to assist until more qualified personal showed up), but you have no such obligation "on the street".
If you do choose to start providing assistance then you have a legal obligation to remain until relived by someone with equal or superior training to your own (i.e: I have to stay until the EMTs show up.... the EMTs have to stay until a nurse or doctor shows up/takes over), but you have no legal obligation to offer said assistance in the first place, unless it occurs in a professional setting and is an expectation of your job duties.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Here's a hypothetical situation that indicates the need to allow these suits to be filed: What if the first responder was actually negligent in a related incident? What if they went to the accident scene and, before performing CPR, flicked their cigarette butt into a pile of leaves that a few minutes later ignited a puddle of gasoline? There is certainly a case to be made that the first responder went to the crash to attempt to perform CPR, and that he couldn't very well perform it with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. But there's an equal case to be made for suing the first responder for carelessness. These circumstances are far from easy to sort out, and a lawsuit would be a wholly appropriate way to resolve them.
You can indeed be sued as a first responder. As an American citizen you can file a lawsuit for any damn thing you want. (Hell, convicted felons have sued the prison system for failing to give them ice cream.) But if you're suing a first responder your chances for success are likely to be close to zero, and the courts are likely to be unfriendly to you as a result.
John
...instead of a video game?
In Snakes on a Plane, Kenan Thompson's character lands a 767 using his knowledge. In the upcoming Fool's Gold, Matthew McConeguay's (sp?) character also learned flying that way. However, from the Fool's Gold trailer, it looks like Kenan's character paid more attention.
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
I advocate arming yourself for protection against ANY thug who would take something from you by force. How and when to use your force to defend yourself is YOUR prerogative and exclusively at YOUR discretion.
Exactly what I said. Here's a presumed example:
If someone were to dump poison chemicals in your water supply, YOU would be their greatest threat.
Government is a paper tiger to all but the law abiding. You and me stand to get shafted since we're lawful and honest (I make a big presumption here), but the REAL crooks, murderers, thugs, robbers and terrorists do not require permission, nor wait to be busted. Patsies and honest people do. Real evil people rarely get caught, and generally they get caught by an attentive passersby.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
You seem to think it's somehow natural that 911 should be used.
911 was not the first number used, nor was the US the first country to use such a system. 911 was only announced as the number in 1968.
http://www.911dispatch.com/911/history/
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Thanks for the info. I'm sure I've come across that number somewhere. I think from memory it's built to use whichever network is available regardless of carrier (whereas 000 only uses your own mobile carrier).
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
But how do you determine if the car is unconscious? Ask if it knows what model it is?
Uh. In Germany, you don't get your drivers license until you show that you've taken part in a first aid class.
Mainly because proper helmet removal can take a couple of minutes...by the time they've stopped breathing (which can happen at any time with an unconscious casualty) you're pushing it dangerously close for time, and it's not a procedure you want to hurry.
Airway maintenence is very simple, you don't need equipment to do it. Around a third of motorbike fatalities are directly related to blocked airways.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.