Hearing Voices? Could Be the Lasers

An anonymous reader sends us to Wired for a piece about some declassified Pentagon research from 1998 that has been revealed in a freedom-of-information filing. Apparently the Pentagon has investigated lasers that put voices in your head, among other non-lethal technologies such as microwave heating. The report suggests the techniques could be useful for controlling crowds or in negotiations. There is no context for the research or any indication whether it has continued, although the microwave heating bit sounds rather like the Active Denial System we have discussed recently.

Comments

Real Genius

[cthulu_mt]

Kent: Is that you God?

Re:Real Genius

[danwat1234]

'God': "And stop touching yourself!"

Re:Real Genius

[Samgilljoy]

Just wait until they sell the technology to the private sector. Instead of poor slobs standing on street corners waving signs, we'll have troops of unskilled laborers running around with laser devices trying to shoot everyone in the head.

Laser Advertising: straight out your marketers' asses into your customers' heads.

Re:Real Genius

[Agent__Smith]

I for one would like to welcome our new laser toting overlords, and so would I, and so would I.......

Re:Real Genius

[oddtom]

Needless to say, I won't feel the least bit bad when someone shoots them in the heads. Hey, they can just say that the voices told them to do it.

Re:Real Genius

[sgt_doom]

Normally, one would find this to be a funny thread but for one thing, the one thing, in fact fewer than five out of every one million Americans are aware of:

that of the five voting machine and election systems companies which will decide the 2008 presidential election - one of them is a Pentagon-shell company, and three of the remaining four are Pentagon-financed. Why this should be a surprise to anyone - after over 823 "election irregularities" over the past four to six years - all following the exact pattern and all called "election-rigging."

Evdidently, many Americans are oblivious to reality, thinking that although such has been the case over the preceding eight years, this time it will be different!

What was that trite definition of insanity: doing the same exact thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.......

And that last voting machine company, Hart Intercivic...owned partially by SAIC (meaning partially by the Pentagon, partially by Amerada Hess - through Triton Energy through Triton Venture Partners [Amerada Hess is the oil company which, in partnership with Bush's pals, the Saudi royals, put through the pipeline across the 'stans which connects to the pipeline in Afghanistan - and the oil company that Keane - that guy on the 9/11 Commission is a director of), and partially by James Baker and the Bushies.....

Re:Real Genius

[Nullav]

So, you're saying we should all don tin foil hats to keep the guberment from planting voices in our heads? (You should be more direct next time.)

Re:Real Genius

[ozmanjusri]

I won't feel the least bit bad when someone shoots them in the heads.

Do not point the laser at your one remaining ear.

Re:Real Genius

[rml1997]

I believe this has already been done: http://www.atcsd.com/site/content/view/13/29/

Re:Real Genius

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait until they sell the technology to the private sector.

The wholesale replacement of vinyl records with CDs and VHS tapes with DVDs over the past two decades is a government orchestrated plot to get one or two of these laser devices into every lounge in America. The private sector is in on this already, under a secret umbrella organization called the RIAA. Why do you think the RIAA is fighting MP3 file sharing so viciously - because people are no longer turning on the laser devices in their living rooms.

Re:Real Genius

[electrictroy]

If the Democrats win
(and I'm 99% certain they will)

how will that work into your "the Pentagon is controlling the vote" theory? (After all, the Pentagon would want the Republicans to win, not the Democrats.) I suppose you'll just silently slink away rather than admit your theory was "bunk".

ON-TOPIC:

I don't see how lasers could create voices inside people's heads. Laser is just light, and light would not penetrate the skull, so there'd be no effect on the human brain. This story sounds like the result of an On-Strike TV Writer with an overactive imagination creating his latest science fiction. i.e. Not reality.

Re:Real Genius

[nurd68]

You seem to think that there is a difference...

Re:Real Genius

[Nullav]

If the Democrats win
(and I'm 99% certain they will)

how will that work into your "the Pentagon is controlling the vote" theory? (After all, the Pentagon would want the Republicans to win, not the Democrats.) I suppose you'll just silently slink away rather than admit your theory was "bunk".

One party with two ties, etc. Also, I'd like to point out that you replied to the wrong person.

I don't see how lasers could create voices inside people's heads. Laser is just light, and light would not penetrate the skull, so there'd be no effect on the human brain. This story sounds like the result of an On-Strike TV Writer with an overactive imagination creating his latest science fiction. i.e. Not reality.

Actually, lasers seem quite rational, compared to some of the older projects.

Re:Real Genius

[electrictroy]

>>>"You seem to think that there is a difference..."

Well in that case:

Why does the Pentagon need to control who wins the election, if there's no difference? They would not need to control anything, since it would not matter who won. ;-)

Re:Real Genius

[GarryFre]

So that's what was going on with Luke Skywalker! .. "Luke ... use the farce!" So maybe they can adopt it as a new type of hearing aid if I believed it worked.

Re:Real Genius

[DigitalCrackPipe]

Sounds like laser tag. I'll just pull one off a shark and show them how I play the game.

Re:Real Genius

[Albert Sandberg]

-You don't need to see his identification.

Re:Real Genius

[sgt_doom]

Well, according to the exit polls (which have been increasingly dramatically in variance with every election) the Dems did win in both 2000 and 2004, yet we somehow still have a Repub prez. Although, if Hillary wins, I'm not sure there would be any qualitative difference - given her overall voting record - between the neocons and her presidency.

But, as of right now I strongly suspect the Republicans will win - because unlike Italy (where Berlisconi brought in Accenture and their rigged voting machines - only to lose by 25,000 votes when the exit polls clearly demonstrated he lost by well over 1 million votes), the USA has a functioning Total Information Awareness Network (along with that HAVA legislation which reinforced the control by the DRE-producing voting machine companies) to perform command and control of their elections......

Also, I would suggest you Google the following: SAIC, Accenture, Hart Intercivic, Diebold, ES&S, Forensics Explorer, Topsail, TIA, NarusInsight, Narus and TIA, Diversified Dynamics, iPaper, etc.

Another Piece of Technology

[Anonymous Coward]

[Mitch Taylor speaking through the microphone so that Kent hears voices in his head]
Mitch: And from now on, stop playing with yourself.
Kent: It is God.

And yet another piece of technology from a great movie becomes obsolete ...

Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[Spectre]

See, the tinfoil hats REALLY DO WORK against the orbital mind control lasers ...

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[ZenDragon]

A former Arizona governor used to wear tin foil hats and cover his windows with tin foil at the governors office (where I worked for a while). Everybody thought he was just crazy but apparently he knew something that we did not!

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[palegray.net]

Could that governor have been the guy discussed in this article. He sure sounds like the mind-ray fearing type...

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[bughunter]

I've got my tinfoil hat on!

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[morgan_greywolf]

See, the tinfoil hats REALLY DO WORK against the orbital mind control lasers ...

Oh, don't worry. The sharks will take care of the tinfoil hats.

Yep. Sharks. With friggin' lasers attached their heads!

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[Rei]

I knew it! Conspiracy theories: 1. Regular theories: A billion

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[repapetilto]

Have you ever seen the X-files movie?

Mulder:If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[mOdQuArK!]

That's why I always make sure I wear my tinfoil hat with the shiny side out, to deflect all the lasers. Even from sharks.

I haven't figured out how to stop the sharks from biting me though, except by staying out of the water.

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[popmaker]

Have you ever tried chewing tin-foil?

You'll be safe.

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[Amorymeltzer]

Actually, it doesn't. An MIT study found that tinfoil hats amplified certain bands that coincide with government usage.

It requires no stretch of the imagination to conclude that the current helmet craze is likely to have been propagated by the Government, possibly with the involvement of the FCC. We hope this report will encourage the paranoid community to develop improved helmet designs to avoid falling prey to these shortcomings.

Re:Tin foil hats vs. orbital mind control lasers.

[Walruzoar]

Sergeant: "Private - zap that damn commie over there with our mind control laser, and turn him into a capitalist!"
Private: "Yes, sah!"
BDZZZTTTTT
Private: "Opps, wrong laser..."

If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[WarJolt]

Torture isn't a reliable means to obtain information. I know...I have a great idea... Lets make them crazy.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[MenTaLguY]

Also known as "psychological torture".

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Gat0r30y]

The obvious use is of course to license the technology to Major League Baseball to tell everyone to buy more MLB merchandise (and of course for marketing research). You didn't think those congresional hearings were really about sterioids did you?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[RiotingPacifist]

well its not reliable enough at getting the answer's we want, this way they be told what to say in real time.
Just a matter of time till Guantanamo tourturees are up in court now, with a guy in a suit whispering at the back of the court.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[palegray.net]

Why stop at beaming voices into their heads? We can achieve must more cooperation through the transmission of these fine symphonic works:

• Britney Spears - Oops!...I Did It Again (can't stop playing these catchy tunes)
• Bell Biv DeVoe - Poison (if you don't cooperate)
• Blondie - I Touch Myself (with a loaded shotgun)
• Backstreet Boys - I Want It That Way (we just want answers)

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[93 Escort Wagon]

Torture isn't a reliable means to obtain information. I see/hear this repeated whenever the subject of torture comes up... but I've never read a convincing explanation of why this would be the case. The standard arguments (e.g. "They'll say whatever you want to hear, just to make you stop") aren't particularly well reasoned - they don't really work unless you assume the torturer comes into the session knowing absolutely nothing related to the information they're trying to obtain.

FWIW I think torture is wrong, and should not be used just based on that fact. But I wonder if the parent statement has some actual basis in fact, or if it basically amounts to another wikiality.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[somersault]

Either that or some jerk in the crowd could laser in "YOU SUCK!" just as the batter is about to swing .. and I thought laser pens at the cinema were annoying :s

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[serialdogma]

Blondie didn't do a "I Touch Myself" cover, the original song was done by Australian rock band the Divinyls.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[CorSci81]

Just from a guess, I'd say the "interviewers" probably tend to ask enough leading questions where in a state of panic you might make up something reasonably convincing but wrong. Or for legitimate suspects who are hardened to torture techniques they could still give mis-information based just enough on the truth to be believable.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[vux984]

but I've never read a convincing explanation of why this would be the case. The standard arguments (e.g. "They'll say whatever you want to hear, just to make you stop") aren't particularly well reasoned - they don't really work unless you assume the torturer comes into the session knowing absolutely nothing related to the information they're trying to obtain.

Suppose I planted some bombs and you caught me and demanded the information by torture. First I'd deny, then I'd lie, and presumably eventually I'd give up the locations and the city would be saved. hooray! right?

The trouble is -- what if you caught my completely innocent brother instead? You'd start in on him, and he deny. And deny. And then deny some more... but if you don't let up, he'll give up and start naming places. Of course there won't be any bombs there unless he's incredibly lucky-- but really you expected him to lie. So you torture him some more, and he'll come up with some new locations.

And all the information he'll give you will be unreliable. But he'll swear by his mothers grave its the truth everytime. until you come back tell him he lied and you want the real locations this time... and he'll come up with another set. You see? He'll just keep saying what you want to hear.

Now if you happen to know where the bombs are, and tell him to confirm it. He'll do that too. He'll jump at the chance. And admit to planning it. Buying the explosives, etc... whatever you tell him... he'll give it back to you.

And when you look at some of the information that's come from people who've been tortured. They rarely want anything so verifiable as the location of bombs... they want

a) you to confess to crimes that they'll outline for you
b) tell you name co-conspirators

In which case you eventually do both. Except if your innocent the people you name in b) are just going to be random friends and family and acquaintenaces etc... which is unverifiable... because they all deny it... unless you torture them too, of course.

The trouble with torture is ultimately there is no real way to tell the difference between some who is supressing information and someone who simply doesn't know. Either will deny knowing. And either will give you false information -- the former in defiance, the latter because that's all they've got, and you don't let up until they give you SOMETHING.

And if you know the information your getting is false, well.. they must be in defiance... so you just torture them some more.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[repapetilto]

Johnston: "It appears the intel was faulty again sir" Base Cmdr. Assertion Fallacy: "Well, then we obviously haven't tortured him enough have we"

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[the brown guy]

What's more reliable then convincing people that they know something even if they don't....could be worded better but basically if the US could just use a laser to put voices in John Doe's head telling him that he knows Al Qaeda was behing 9/11 then hey, time to invade Iraq.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[MikeDX]

surely she *DID* do a cover then..

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Steauengeglase]

Actually this makes sense. Torture them and then drive them mad. From what I gather the Hague doesn't accept testimony from those deemed incompetent.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[ravenshrike]

Done properly, while asking the right sort of questions, torture works perfectly well. Especially if you keep torturing them until their story remains consistent. It's hard enough to build elaborate lies against interrogation alone, adding severe pain and mental anguish makes it impossible. That being said, just picking up an average Joe off the street and torturing them won't get you anything useful, because you don't know enough to ask the right sort of questions.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[tsotha]

The trouble with torture is ultimately there is no real way to tell the difference between some who is supressing information and someone who simply doesn't know. Either will deny knowing. And either will give you false information -- the former in defiance, the latter because that's all they've got, and you don't let up until they give you SOMETHING.

And that's why it's not effective in every situation. Yes, you need some way of corroborating the data. As you pointed out, in the case of bombs it's pretty easy, since you can just go look to see if there's a bomb. And yeah, if you pick up a guy who doesn't know anything it's gonna be a long couple weeks, especially for him. But that's the way intelligence works in general - you put lot of time and effort into finding things out and most of the time you're in a blind alley.

Torturing people until they confess crimes is stupid. There's no court in the world that would take that kind of evidence unless the whole thing is a show trial anyway.

In the case of conspiracies, though, I think you're wrong. Conspiracies have all sorts of physical evidence. In a bomb plot, depending on how far along it is you'll have bomb-making materials, receipts, phone calls, residues, funny smells remembered by the neighbors, weapons, bank transactions, and maybe even actual explosives. You can't have a bomb plot without physical evidence. The point isn't to bring in the guys your victim names and torture them too - that would be pointless. It's that you now have a place to look for physical evidence.

People who say torture doesn't work watch too many movies. Sure, it doesn't work the way Hollywood protrays it, but then again neither would many of MacGuyver's little creations. Virtually every government in the world uses torture, or has used it in the past. There may be lots of reasons not to do it, but "it doesn't work" isn't a valid one in my opinion.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[serialdogma]

Admittedly I only checked Wikipedia, but Blondie didn't.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[afxgrin]

Well, yeah that might actually be somewhat successful. You'll get a lot of wrong information, but dosing someone with a hallucinogenic drug may make them blurt out all sorts of random shit, some of the things might be what's floating around in their head, other shit just maybe incoherent babbling. It's a matter of someone who knows what the drug feels like to decipher useful information from utter bullshit. I bet making someone feel paranoid while under the influence, and then making them feel like they have the upper hand at some point will probably get some megalomanic response to just express how you can't break them... possibly getting that rant of their evil plans. :-)

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[MikeBabcock]

On the contrary -- people who say torture works watch too many movies. Ditto for people who think lie detectors work. You do realize the CIA has admitted to never actually outing an agent with a lie detector, right?

Torture is a useful way to justify your own actions and beliefs, and it may be a way to get information from someone IF they have that information but it is NOT a good reliable way of ascertaining if they even know that information nor if the information they give you is accurate.

Some people you can beat half to death and they'll just let you kill them out of spite. Some people will lie from the start just to see if they can outwit you. Some will give up everything after being threatened once. Can you tell the difference? I'll tell you one thing, a lot of those doing the torturing sure can't, not to mention that you wouldn't be able to admit to having torture training in the first place.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[petermgreen]

Just from a guess, I'd say the "interviewers" probably tend to ask enough leading questions where in a state of panic you might make up something reasonably convincing but wrong. Or for legitimate suspects who are hardened to torture techniques they could still give mis-information based just enough on the truth to be believable.
Sure but there are a couple techniques the torturer can use to at least partially get arround that.

* they can check that the information is consistant with thier other sources.
* if they have captured a group of people who are all belived to have the information they can keep torturing until they get a consistant story out of all of them.

I'm sure there are cases where torture doesn't work but that is rather different from being useless.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[tunabomber]

Why even try to satirize the U.S. military when they satirize themselves? They actually did this at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. It seems Metallica was the most popular torture music, but occasionally they'd crank Barney the Dinosaur when they wanted to play hardball.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[palegray.net]

Hey man, I'm in the Navy, and if I were forced to listen to "I Love You, You Love Me" a few thousand times there's no telling what I might say :(.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been known for hundreds, if not thousands of years that torture is an unreliable source of information. People who are being tortured tend to "waffle" between various lies and, occasionally the truth, in an attempt to find a story the torturer will believe. There is, however, no way for the observer to know which is which. Plus, you are assuming guilt every time you choose to torture a suspect, irregardless of evidence. (I do believe the opposite assumpion is what is supposed to be made.)

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[tsotha]

On the contrary -- people who say torture works watch too many movies. Ditto for people who think lie detectors work. You do realize the CIA has admitted to never actually outing an agent with a lie detector, right?

The CIA is hopelessly bound by bureaucracy. I'd be seriously surprised if they actual found out anything of any value and managed to communicate it to people who need to know. Lie detectors can work, but they don't usually. I would certainly investigate someone who failed a polygraph test, but a pass tells you nothing. Which the CIA knows very well thanks to Aldrich Ames.

Torture is a useful way to justify your own actions and beliefs, and it may be a way to get information from someone IF they have that information but it is NOT a good reliable way of ascertaining if they even know that information nor if the information they give you is accurate.

I addressed this in my post. I agree - if you have no way to corroborate anything it's not likely to yield anything useful. And it doesn't tell you what people might know. But someone like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, for instance, was a perfect candidate. There was no question he knew lots of things we wanted to know. And we had ways of corroborating what he said - bank records, phone records, evidence from police raids, etc. So of course torture will work in that situation. And it did, assuming that's how you characterize waterboarding.

This is the guy that planned 9/11, so certainly deserves all the pain he got and more. The only valid arguments I can see against torture in his case are based on it's effect on our national character.

By the way, "justify[ing] your own actions and beliefs" doesn't really enter into it. That's what religion is for (well, or the NYT if you're on the left).

My concern with this angle in the discussion is this: There are valid reasons to have a policy against torture. But this one is weak, and it tends to make the people making the argument look like they're debating in bad faith. In certain situations it works. We know it works. The question really is, knowing that, do we want to forgo it's use anyway?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[ross.w]

"Dantooine. They're on Dantooine"

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[smitth1276]

I don't know about "real" torture, but we know that waterboarding worked very well the 3 times it was used. Of course, waterboarding was only intended to take the detainee by complete surprise--during their training and past experiences they had become absolutely confident that the US wouldn't lay a finger on them, and suddenly they were doing THIS to them... now that the cat is out of the bag, it probably wouldn't work. Of course, that's probably why they only did it 3 times, the last of which was years ago.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Silver Gryphon]

Even better -- the sound of a mosquito. Or angry hornets. Whatever the player hates/fears more.

I see a market 10 years from now for tech to disrupt these.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

The CIA is hopelessly bound by bureaucracy. I'd be seriously surprised if they actual found out anything of any value and managed to communicate it to people who need to know. Lie detectors can work, but they don't usually. I would certainly investigate someone who failed a polygraph test, but a pass tells you nothing. Which the CIA knows very well thanks to Aldrich Ames. You ever been given a polygraph? I got arrested for nothing a few years back but they didn't believe me so they said they were gonna give me a polygraph. I say great lets do this. They say nevermind we don't want to. Theres a reason they didn't want to use it, its nothing but a scare tactic in a power struggle. Power struggles are NOT an effective way of finding information.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

The standard arguments (e.g. "They'll say whatever you want to hear, just to make you stop") aren't particularly well reasoned - they don't really work unless you assume the torturer comes into the session knowing absolutely nothing related to the information they're trying to obtain.

Torture will work... if you know enough about the situation not to need it in the first place. In reality, you'll have some facts, and you'll have some "facts" which are in fact untrue, and you'll have no idea which is which. The torture won't help the situation at all. If you punish your victim any time he contradicts what you know to be true, you'll just push him away from the truth. It may be theoretically possible to have knowledge perfect enough to know when the victim is lying but incomplete enough so that what he says is useful, but in real life this simply doesn't happen.

You state that every government has used torture and therefore it must be effective. This is a ridiculous thing to say. Every government has used prayer, every government has used psychics and faith healers... just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it worth anything. Most governments which do or did torture do it because they either don't know better or because it's used as much for punishment as for getting information.

Torture is simply bad interrogation practice. When it works, more "standard" interrogation practices which don't involve making him into the interrogator's enemy will generally work even better. And when "standard" practices fail, torture will generally fail as well. Anyone who will withstand interrogation will do it regardless. You may break him but you'll never know what part of what he's saying is the truth.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Tarkin: "She lied. She lied to us!"

Vader: "I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion."

[Vader waves hand as though still talking]

Tarkin: "Terminate her. Immediately!"

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[cyphercell]

So, lets say you spend months torturing the wrong person? Do you let them go? Let them back to their people so they can tell everyone what hideous hell awaits them whether innocent or guilty? Fuck no! you bury that shit, you either A) never let them out of prison OR B) finish it. The best case scenario here is where you have executioners and torturers in a total disconnect. The torturer thinks the innocents go free, the executioners think only the guilty are exterminated. But outside of a perfect world, the only thing that holds the soldiers' belief in upstanding behavior is denial.

So, knowing how it works, I know that if torture is going to be used against the enemy (whether innocent or guilty) the innocent will develop plans fashioned around protecting their loved ones, and the guilty will fashion plans to look innocent. What you get is a despotic snowball where both the guilty and innocent rat out their friends in order to protect their families and co-conspirators. Forcing the interrogating force to lock up or kill more and more of the wrong people. (possibly developing a paranoia that all co-conspirators are blood related - the interrogator will sense that everyone is lying about the same thing.)

If I were guilty I would go to the smartest innocent "friend" I have and make a deal that if either of us are captured we will protect our families. I would develop a wild goose chase complete with corroborating evidence, eventually framing my buddy or an enemy. I would instruct all of my closest recruits to do the same (creating more corroboration in a predatory fashion). Fear would drive my friend to do unspeakable things, he at the same time would assume I was under that same pressure of fear - he would be wrong. Spies often work by using people that do NOT know anything of value. Hell if I was a spy I'd set shit up and call the damn interrogators just to keep them busy. Torture is a crude tactic in the intelligence game - it only works against those that are bad at playing the game. What's more, is if your enemy is bad at playing the game, why do you need it?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

they don't really work unless you assume the torturer comes into the session knowing absolutely nothing related to the information they're trying to obtain.
Prisoner: ZAP* ARGH! What is it that you want to know?!
Interrogator: That is what we want to know.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[GodfatherofSoul]

But someone like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, for instance, was a perfect candidate....

But there IS no perfect candidate for torture. The same effects of torturing an innocent person come into effect. You have no clue at what point you're getting no new, valid information as the subject will respond the same way; telling you whatever you think they want to know including making it up. Remember after 9/11 how we kept getting bogus terrorist alerts? I'm not so cynical to think this was a pure scare tactic, I think we were seeing the fruits of torture; subjects (some legitimate) telling their torturers whatever they wanted to hear including making up attack targets, accusing anyone they knew, etc.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Antique Geekmeister]

This reasoning seems unclear. Theh torturer, of course, knows what they are looking for. The victim responds with anything they can think of to fulfill the desire of the torturer, and between them they come up with a sory that fills the needs of the torturer to report something and the victim to escape immediate punishment. The victim may well leak some relevant information if they have it, but their desire becomes one of escaping the torture, so even valid information may not fulfill the desires of the torturer. For a lesser example, think of how you cooperated with your parents in making up stories to explain your absence from school one day, or where you really were last night. The victim will make up other stories to hide the truth which they care about, stories which fulfill the questioner's goals and needs.

I don't see how the torturer can *not* have an agenda and an expectation that many victims will try to fulfill for them after they are broken down enough. Obtaining specific types of information is what pays the torturer's salary.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Antique Geekmeister]

My god. You are obviously not old enough to remember the use of LSD for interrogation by the CIA and DEA in the 1960's, and the results on innocent people questioned this way or of the college student testing subjects they used while experimenting with the techniques. Nor apparently old enough to remember the reports of torture and its mishandling by US military in Vietname and Korea. And when you leave torture victims behind, or slaughter them to hide your wrong-doing, you alienate the locals and give them even more incentive to hate, mistrust, or attack your personnel.

They may have gotten a few guilty people to confess to important information, but they destroyed the lives of innocent people as well, and then tried to cover up their involvement to the lifelong costs of the innocent who had incredible difficulty even establishing the mistreatment, due to "national security".

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[WK2]

Done properly, while asking the right sort of questions, torture works perfectly well.

Interesting theory. It's too bad that no one has ever done it properly, unless by "properly" you mean that the goal is to extract a confession.

Especially if you keep torturing them until their story remains consistent.

If you continue to torture them after they tell you the truth, their story will NOT remain consistent.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[tsotha]

Spies often work by using people that do NOT know anything of value. Hell if I was a spy I'd set shit up and call the damn interrogators just to keep them busy. Torture is a crude tactic in the intelligence game - it only works against those that are bad at playing the game. What's more, is if your enemy is bad at playing the game, why do you need it?

I think you would find it very difficult to set up a wild goose chase that would fool a reasonably intelligent interrogator. There's all sorts of physical evidence that would be difficult to get ahold of and plant. Depending on the nature of what you're doing, you might not be able to set anything up because the story would involve areas not under your control.

In any event you're missing a crucial point: Not everyone is intelligent. You might not get anything off a FSB-trained spy who's got an IQ of 150. But your average "militant" is probably not that smart. Indeed, he may be too dumb to realize he's gonna get caught eventually. The jails are full of criminals that thought they would never get caught.

Like any kind of police work, the most efficient use of your time is taking advantage of the weak points of your enemy's organization, i.e. the dumb people and the ignorant people. You know Osama bin Laden used an unencrypted satellite phone for years? That most terrorist plots fail because they don't take basic operational security measures?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[tsotha]

But there IS no perfect candidate for torture. The same effects of torturing an innocent person come into effect. You have no clue at what point you're getting no new, valid information as the subject will respond the same way

First off, just because you don't know when you've got everything doesn't mean you're not gonna get anything. Secondly, the problem with innocent people is you don't know if they know anything. But with a person you're sure has information, you don't have that problem. Of course he's not going to give you information to questions you don't ask, but nobody's smart enough to piece together a false story with no holes. What made KSM the perfect candidate for waterboarding was we already knew he had the information we wanted.

And besides, you can't argue with results. We were able to roll up a huge financial network based on information we got from him after a few minutes of pouring water up his nose. I'm not arguing a moral position here - all I'm saying is sometimes torture works.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Great story...but I for one am still waiting for evidence that isn't anecdotal or fictional that torture is completely unreliable. Is it to say it has never worked in the history of mankind? That all the countries and organizations that have used it have a 100% failure rate? Or maybe nobody has presented any here because the response on either side could easily be "I don't trust your source."

As with our judicial system, innocents are punished sometimes. Despite what the black helicopter crowd thinks, authorities do try to avoid it; but it happens. Can you offer a better alternative? "There must be another way" is not an acceptable answer.

I don't want to see anyone tortured either; but it's troubling to not see a two-sided discussion (not that it should be expected from slashdot). I definitely wouldn't want to see national security entrusted to you guys.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if they don't know anything, they will tell you something to make it stop. This means you're left in the position trying to extract information from someone that doesn't have it. Furthermore, if they do have some information, it's common for some information to be provided by minor, important bits, to be changed in an effort to mitigate the transfer of information.

Once again, you are left trying to figure out:
  o Does this person know anything or is (s)he withholding?
  o Is the information correct?
  o Is the the information provided by this person incorrect because he doesn't know or incorrect because of deception?
  o How do you validate the information is correct?

If you known enough to correct for the variables above, you likely don't need to talk to the person in the first place. At best, assuming the person was completely honest and knew something, you are left with intelligence which is not actionable because you don't know how credible the information is in the first place. And if you do know it's credible, read the first sentence of this paragraph.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[rantingkitten]

When torturing someone you're usually trying to get unverifiable information out of them. If you could verify it by other means in the first place, odds are you'd do so and save everyone the hassle (including yourself -- torture ain't easy). We're talking about things like names of your cohorts, dates, locations perhaps.. but mostly, just a confession to some crime or other. That is what is meant by "telling them what they want to hear". Torture someone long enough and they'll confess to whatever nonsense you want.

Or did you think all those people in Salem who confessed to being witches really were?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[the linux geek]

This coming from the same "news source" that reported in 2006 that a US invasion of Iran was imminent...

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[vux984]

What made KSM the perfect candidate for waterboarding was we already knew he had the information we wanted.

That's a fallacy pure and simple.

Consider death row. We -know- innocent people have been executed by the state. We 'knew' they were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt through a trial and multiple appeals, and all the years it takes to get someone from convicted to executed. And WE STILL FUCK IT UP more than anyone cares to admit.

With torture its the same thing, except:
1) we remove all pretense of due process -- victim has no rights
2) its likely a relatively snap decision -- something bad is going to happen soon, so we can't wait years
3) its out of public scrutiny -- its easier to make and conceal errors if there is no one looking

If we had the same error rate with torture as we do with capital punishment I'd still be against torture. And lets face it, getting the same error rate as capital punishment is a drug induced pipe-dream with the lack of process in place.

And besides, you can't argue with results. We were able to roll up a huge financial network based on information we got from him after a few minutes of pouring water up his nose. I'm not arguing a moral position here - all I'm saying is sometimes torture works.

Flipping a coin at a murder trial to decide if someone is innocent or guilty would work ~50% of the time too. That doesn't make it a reliable method of deciding cases.

We also 'knew' Saddam had WMDs too, how long would you have tortured him to find out where they were?

Torture is like a coin toss. Sure, SOMETIMES it works, but its not reliable.

Finally, in the case of KSM, just because we thought we 'knew' he had information, that doesn't mean he actually had it, nor did it mean that by torturing him that he would give it up.

Perhaps he knew some things, but not everything we thought he knew... is it still ok to torture someone like that? What if he gives up the information he knows right away during questioning before toroture... but then "refuses" to give up additional information that we think we 'know' he knows... but in point of fact he doesn't know, or perhaps even that he did know at one time but simply forgot.

I don't know who was present when I signed the mortgage on my home... I don't remember the name of the bank officer I dealt with, I don't know what they looked like or even what gender the person was. I doubt I remembered their name for more than a month after the papers were signed. And now less than a year later I can't even remember whether it was a male or female. So the fact that I was in a meeting with someone less than a year ago involving the largest transaction in my life, representing multiple years of income, and a 20+ year commitment... and I couldn't tell you anything about it. If it was a terrorist funds transfer instead of a mortgage, and you had proof I was there, ... well... sucks to be me. Because I'm not going to be able to tell you sweet fuck all. And no matter how much you might think I "know". I don't.

Bottom line -- you can't **KNOW** what anyone knows or doesn't know with any real certainty. So torturing someone for information you think they know is a crapshoot. Right or wrong someone pays a terrible price, and there are few controls at all, to ensure we get it right.

Torture is unreliable. Its probably better than rolling the dice to make decisions. Or is it?... those brits who got tortured (or at the very least abused) in guantanamo for being rounded up while in the wrong place at the wrong time... that seems like little more than a crapshoot to me.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[afxgrin]

Oh I know all about it. I'm not advocating it though. I'm just saying that it could be useful to some extent. What's worse though? Beating the fuck out of people and letting them be emotionally and physically scarred that way, or dose them with LSD and make them feel really paranoid without having to beat the shit out of them?

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[cyphercell]

wrong kind of intelligence. I'm talking the "I" in CIA, in this case "IQ" means approximately dick. Having a very good Bull Shit sniffer is extremely important (examine everything with the collective paranoia of poe and the logic of a vulcan, hire klingons for the dirty work). The ability to generate BS is imperative. Personally, I would start a drug cartel to keep the enemy busy - evidence is fucking easy as long as you give the perception of generating money. This is generally, beyond the scope of normal police work, not that the police don't make very good practice of intelligence.

I'm an armchair "conspiracy theorist", I have a second cousin that's a pro, and I'm well read. Sometimes, you can call me a chicken-hawk (sort of), but mostly, I like to think of myself as someone that's done a lot of research and analysis, that offers "civilly professional opinions". And yes I've been to mental health for paranoia, I think it looks good on my resume.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Antique Geekmeister]

"Beating the fuck out of people" covers such a wide range of physical trauma that I'd like to get some kind of scale of damage for comparison. And there have certainly been long term, destructive effects of LSD based questioning, reported from some of the Vietnam vets and Vietnamese prisoners during that conflict. So I don't think it's a fair "eitheor/or" question, especially because sometimes both were used.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[cyphercell]

I'm joking (sarcasm), btw. My second cousin is an author, he writes non-fiction. I mostly read non-fiction. I used to work at an Ingram book Co. warehouse since then the only place I've found to buy books has been amazon, however, when I worked there, I had access to many books. I have a full library for chess and drawing. A good chunk of my social science (true crime, etc) and political books have been boxed. I've got a few D&D books too, I like to read my periodicals when I can too.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[afxgrin]

Well yeah, the experience could certainly be traumatizing for someone unsuspecting of the effects. I've experienced LSD trips more than once, it can definitely make for a bad time.

Re:If torture wasn't unreliable enough

[Anonymous Coward]

if they have captured a group of people who are all belived to have the information they can keep torturing until they get a consistant story out of all of them.

Wow, that's weak. They are believed to have the same information? So keep torturing until we get a consistent story? What if the belief was wrong?

I'm safe

[quakehead3]

Thanks to my tinfoil hat.

Re:I'm safe

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha! We're ahead of the times! We don't *NEED* lasers to hear voices in our head, do we? Hahaaha! What's that, Mother? Kill the evil slut in room 13? After I do the dishes, Mother. All good things come to those who wait.

Re:I'm safe

[Spetiam]

Just make sure your tinfoil hat is extra shiny and reflective.

obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

what's the frequency, Kenneth?

Re:obligatory

[spun]

For those who don't know, or those who think it's just a reference to an R.E.M. song, read the story behind the song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What's_the_Frequency,_Kenneth%3F

Basically, some crazy dude beat the crap out of Dan Rather because he thought the networks were beaming voices into his head, and he thought Dan knew the frequency.

Re:obligatory

[h3llfish]

No, he didn't beat the crap out of Dan Rather... when they say "assaulted", they just mean got all up in his grill in a crazy fashion. Rather was not harmed physically.

Re:obligatory

[spun]

Well, it appears you are correct. Don't know where I'd heard that Dan was hurt, but a quick google for some news reports shows that he was "not seriously injured."

Do not look into mind control laser...

[Anonymous Coward]

... with remaining eye.

The report explained several types of non-lethal laser applications, including microwave hearing, disrupted neural control, and microwave heating.

I am guessing after a few seconds of having your head microwaved, the only voices you hear will be your own screams.

Finally! Help for Paranoid Schizophrenics!

[F�an�ro]

We should use this awesome technologie to help guide ill people.

Especially Paranoid Schizophrenics.

We can send them reassuring messages, like "you are not alone. we are there to get you (help)"

or warn them of imminent dangers, like which bus drivers hate them.

Re:Finally! Help for Paranoid Schizophrenics!

[Frosty Piss]

Take four red capsules. In 10 minutes, take two more. Help is on the way. Can you hear me? Stay calm. Everything will be all right. The door seems to be jammed. Please check the lock on your side. Everything will be all right; we are here to help you. Stay calm. We are not going to harm you. Everything will be all right.

Voices

[jumpinp]

I knew I wasn't crazy.

Re:Voices

[Chris Burke]

Wait, does this mean I'm not crazy? :(

Re:Voices

[spun]

Wait, does this mean I'm not crazy? :( Well, what do the voices say?

Re:Voices

[$RANDOMLUSER]

You're just jealous because they only talk to me.

Re:Voices

[Sponge Bath]

Who said that?

Re:Voices

[Chris Burke]

Well, what do the voices say?

The voices assure me that I'm completely batshit insane.

Okay, I feel better.

Re:Voices

[PPH]

Well, what do the voices say? "Heeeeere's Johnny!"

Re:Voices

[thegiantsnail]

Philip K Dick. Hell yes. My exact thought when I read this, that pink laser of enlightenment.

Re:Voices

[morgan_greywolf]

Well, what do the voices say?

"Gates is a God. Only Microsoft software is secure. The GPL is a plague upon the world."

Just the usual....

Re:Voices

[megaditto]

They keep saying something over and over in Chinese.

I am not sure it's Chinese though since I can't actually speak it.

Re:Voices

[ROMRIX]

I knew I wasn't crazy.

I hear ya brother..

Thank God it's the Laser.

I thought it was the Shark!

Re:Voices

[Captain DaFt]

Well, what do the voices say?

Mine say, "Please, please, just SHUT UP! We're only here to beg you to please be quiet and leave us alone!"

Figures that the voices in my head are crazier than I am...

Re:Voices

[globaljustin]

according to TFA, the microwave-induced voices in your head was developed and even demonstrated

except that it could only be heard within a persons head. In one experiment, communication of the words from one to ten using speech modulated microwave energy was successfully demonstrated. Microphones next to the person experiencing the voice could not pick up these sounds. Additional development of this would open up a wide range of possibilities.

I mean...!!! This is, as I see it, proof that the rumors and conspiracy theories about this were based in fact.

Most of the posts on this article have focues on the pain inducing aspects, but damn if this isn't groundbreaking. The government can make voices in your head that only you can hear.

repeat: this FOIA document outlines how the GOVERNMENT CAN PUT VOICES IN YOUR HEAD. This is just insane. Don't tell me for one second that they haven't been developing this further.

the effects of this development cannot be overstated.

Redefinition of "Negotiate"

[t33jster]

The report suggests the techniques could be useful for controlling crowds or in negotiations. "Do what we say & we'll turn off the voices. Thank you for your continued cooperation."

Re:Redefinition of "Negotiate"

[Rei]

"Buy lightspeed briefs."

Didn't we already know this?

[jadedoto]

Wasn't there a billboard in NYC that worked in a similar fashion just a few months ago?

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[icegreentea]

That was an ultrasonic beam modulated so that it would cause the air the vibrate making 'normal' sounds.

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[Dr. Noooo]

As a matter of fact, it is on Prince Street ... http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/12/13/billboard-inserts-au.html

Frey effect

[Anonymous Coward]

read about it on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect

re: Frey effect

[bouma]

The widespread implementation of microwave technology and installation of microwave towers could have a more oppressive purpose. Mind control has been researched for decades, certainly by both america and russia.

Some people claim to be sensitive to electrical devices, although this has been shown to be psychosomatic in many properly conducted studies, this phenomenon might now provide a basis for some of their claims.

Anyone on /. should be familiar with the clicking buzzing noise, which appears before a mobile phone rings, induced in the cables or electronics of an amplified speaker. This is an everyday demonstration that a appropriately resonant device is quite capable of incidentally registering ubiquitous microwave communication signals.

It is not a massive leap to suggest that parts of the human ear might be sensitive to the motion due to thermal changes associated with a microwave signal. The question is are our governments already using this technology on the general population?

Someone's been reading Philip K. Dick

[Anonymous Coward]

Valis, anyone?

Re:Someone's been reading Philip K. Dick

[Ruke]

That's the same thing that popped into my head.

Re:Someone's been reading Philip K. Dick

[FiloEleven]

My thoughts exactly. Tagged "valis" and "philipkdick" but we don't have the mindshare to make 'em show up.

Danny's not here, Mrs. Torrance

[Glowing-Wind]

Redrum! Redrum!

microwave negotiations

[sssmashy]

The microwave heating technique was tested on a Rhesus monkey, where a 225 MHz beam caused an increase in the animals body temperature. Depending on the dosage level, the temperature increase occurred within a time of 15 to 30 minutes. After the beam was removed, the animals body temperature decreased back to normal. The report suggests the technique could be useful for controlling crowds or in negotiations.

"What's that, you say? Getting a little hot in here? We'll get you a cool glass of water... but first, let's finish negotiating the terms of your unconditional surrender."

Re:microwave negotiations

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

But isn't there a risk of going blind from this sort of thing? My understanding is that when exposed to microwaves the first really "bad" thing to happen is that you go blind because there is limited blood supply to the cornea. Whilst other parts of the body can hold out longer because the blood transfers the heat away from the exposed area, the corneas get cooked. And everyone knows that corneas taste better when cooked in the oven, not in the microwave!
 
How droll, the captcha was "screams".

Re:microwave negotiations

[westlake]

The microwave heating technique was tested on a Rhesus monkey

One of the earliest questions Churchill asked was whether a radar beam could disable a pilot - whether a "death ray" was a realistic possibility. The short answer in 1940 was no.

Re:microwave negotiations

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because it wasn't until 1945 that a researcher noticed a candy bar in his pocket had melted. Up until then they were just cooking themselves without knowing it...

Wild Goose Chase

[prajjwal]

Damn.. back when I had decided to investigate this, voices in my head kept telling me that it was a wild goose chase!

Re:Wild Goose Chase

[Architect_sasyr]

Is this the appropriate time for a certain bash quote:

<ColdRage687> i used to think the brain was the most fascinating part of the body
<ColdRage687> but then i realized
<ColdRage687> pssssh
<ColdRage687> look whats telling me that

Re:Wild Goose Chase

[5c11]

Not to be pedantic, but that joke should properly be attributed to Emo Phillips.

Re:Wild Goose Chase

[Anonymous Coward]

How was that not pedantic?

I Wouldn't Laugh ...

[eldavojohn]

Torture isn't a reliable means to obtain information. I know...I have a great idea... Lets make them crazy. Yeah, that's funny--although I would mod it insightful. Although perhaps you should read Mikhail Bulgakov's works that were satires of how the Soviet Union tortured him indirectly. From the Wikipedia entry on his most famous work:

A memorable and much-quoted line in The Master and Margarita is: "manuscripts don't burn" (Russian: ). The Master is a writer who is plagued by both his own mental problems and the oppression of Stalin's regime in 1930s Moscow. He burns his treasured manuscript in an effort to hide it from the Soviet authorities and cleanse his own mind from the troubles the work has brought him. There is an autobiographical element reflected in the Master's character here, as Bulgakov in fact burned an early copy of The Master and Margarita for much the same reasons.

technologies using UHF waves

[repapetilto]

television broadcasts, microwave ovens, mobile phones, wireless LAN, Bluetooth, GPS and Two-Way Radios such as FRS and GMRS Radios. So I mean all of these can be randomly (or on purpose) interacting with the fluid inside your cochlea to make you hear things that aren't there throughout the day. Most of it probably gets filtered out as noise, but theres gotta be a couple of times each year each of us hears something that wasn't there due to this stuff. I still say its worth it, but damn thats weird.

Re:technologies using UHF waves

[repapetilto]

Also, this is really interesting considering this theory

pkd

[KrazeeEyezKilla]

PHILIP K DICK WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG now we just have to wait for the pentagon to admit that we are living in the roman empire and that it's 79 AD

Re:pkd

[bobl]

Too bad lasers don't come in pink.

Re:pkd

[aled]

PHILIP K DICK WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG now we just have to wait for the pentagon to admit that we are living in the roman empire and that it's 79 AD

That was like in the '70s. Right now we are in may be 109 AD. But he was all right, or at least the little voice in his head generated by lasers was.

Re:pkd

[h3llfish]

I was so proud of the /. community for adding the "valis" tag to this story. Valis is one of Philip K. Dick's best novels, in my book. It's part of a loosely related quadrilogy of books that feature similar themes (religion, technology, fascism, satan). If you haven't, you really should read everything the man ever wrote.

Long History

[pilsner.urquell]

Yep, that wouldn't be the strangest thing DOD has done.

Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, welcome our new light-based overlords.

some more links

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/neur-sci/2002-May/048366.html

http://www.raven1.net/v2succes.htm

Huh?

[arizwebfoot]

Does this mean I get to leave the Nut House and go home?

Oh wait, my home is the Nut House, but I'm out of tin foil.

If I cover my roof with tin foil, will the voices stop?

oblig

[PhasmatisApparatus]

Don't lase me, bro!

Re:oblig

[PhasmatisApparatus]

Do not listen to laser with remaining ear.

and I thought I had followed my heart...

[Anonymous Coward]

when something inside me kept telling me to have sex with him!

If You Have A Clear Shot....

[LowlyWorm]

Why negotiate? The article indicated the effects could be psychologically devastating. If that is true just use bullets. If you want them alive use a tazer or bean bags.

Make 'm crazy?

[Anonymous Coward]

You could be on the mark here. I mean; it takes one to make one, no? ;-)

No tin-foil hat for me!

[Mesa MIke]

Nope.
It's gonna be a polished silver helmet!

An obvious practical application

[paulpach]

There is an obvious application for this technology.

Re:An obvious practical application

[ale_ryu]

I imagine it could be used to cheat on exams also :P
Students of the future may have to wear the mandatory tinfoil hat while taking an exam!

Re:An obvious practical application

[Anonymous Coward]

It seams to be missing the "No Baby" button.

Re:An obvious practical application

[Lifyre]

You of course assume that she listens to the voices in her head. I think it rather more likely she ignores them the same as she ignores you and just listens to the sound of her own voice.

Not a laser.

[Anonymous Coward]

Laser = light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation.
In the article they talk about using microwaves.

As far as I know there in no way to make a coherent beam of RF energy.
Or can it be done using a dipole aerial array like they use for radar?
It's still not light anyway.

Re:Not a laser.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only is making a coherent beam of microwave RF possible, it predates the invention of the laser.

Re:Not a laser.

[19thNervousBreakdown]

As far as I know there in no way to make a coherent beam of RF energy.

What do you think light is?

Re:Not a laser.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah thanks. I get it now. It's interesting that lasers were going to be called 'optical masers'. I thought you needed mirrors, which would not work with RF. Lots more ways to make a resonant cavity than I thought!

Re:Not a laser.

[Deadstick]

As far as I know there in no way to make a coherent beam of RF energy.

One word: Maser.

rj

Re:Not a laser.

[Animats]

As far as I know there in no way to make a coherent beam of RF energy.

Most RF emitters are coherent. A spark transmitter isn't, but anything driven by an oscillator is. That's how radio works.

Re:Not a laser.

[lachlan76]

Light, I believe, isn't considered to be RF---it may be electromagnetic, but its frequency is too high to be considered "Radio Frequency".

Re:Not a laser.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots more ways to make a resonant cavity than I thought!

Oh, you just had to bring Goatse into this, didn't you? :)

Old News + Kucinich Called it

[Essron]

see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399.html

you know, economically speaking it is inevitable these things will be researched, like chemical weapons (some of which turn you gay in the foxhole), pentagon contingency plans for aliens showing up and cheating with electronic voting. too much upside to ignore the possibility, or too ominous to not aggressively understand.

it does sound like an interesting line of research, no?

No Lasers

[John Hasler]

The article is garbled (as usual) but none of the stuff discussed involves lasers.

Re:No Lasers

[repapetilto]

The article links to the actual memo released by the army about it, where they discuss the lasers

Re:No Lasers

[Dachannien]

The article is garbled (as usual) but none of the stuff discussed involves lasers. They might be using the code name "Alan Parsons Project".

Gay Bomb

[Tablizer]

They can use this in conjunction with the "gay bomb" (hormone tweaker) they were working on. Now voices can say, "It's okay, don't feel guilty. He's cute, go for it!".

uncle sam's great idea

[alxkit]

"lasers that put voices in your head"

yeah, that will come REAL useful during a negotiation with a crazy person.

Negotiations?

[esp_ex]

From the article:

Another form of non-lethal torture described in the report is microwave heating. By raising the temperature of the body to 41C (105.8F), humans can experience sensations such as memory loss and disorientation... The report suggests the technique could be useful for controlling crowds or in negotiations. So, what kind of "negotiation" is this is if you are causing memory loss and disorientation to the person you are "negotiating" with?

Re:Negotiations?

[PitaBred]

I'd wager on "surrender" for the type of negotiation that I'd vote it most likely to be used in. My second choice is "sex".

Lets change the date on the Roman Empire

[usul294]

I love PKD as much as the next guy, but I think you're date where we are in terms of Roman Imperialism is on. To the extent of the status of our political system, look to the Reign of Sulla, a demagogue who confiscated all of the property of thousands of wealthy Romans (and killed them), and used the money to support social programs (gladiatorial games and bread, not to mention outfitting Sulla's house). This rhetoric seems similar to some of today's politics, especially with John Edwards, Barack Obama and Mike Huckabee. They all advocate punishing the rich and using the money on entitlements (Huckabee is more subtle, since he also happens to be in the party with higher-income voters). The weakness here is using the power of the mob to gain power for yourself. Once this happens, democracy will fail as leaders put their own pursuit of power above the good of the country. Forcing equality and happiness on everyone only destroys the ability of a nation to innovate. If there is any societal reason for our decline in intellectual capital, its that theres a huge government safety net that says "We're sorry textile workers who lose their jobs because they must get paid by law 100 times more than someone in Thailand, you shouldn't make an effort to learn new skills, the government will make sure you never have to know anything new after you turn 16." That's all ridiculous remember, having freedom means having the freedom to fail, the freedom to screw up your life, the freedom to be unsuccessful. Remember the lessons from Brave New World

Clarke knew

[earlymon]

As I recall, putting annoying sound - bad music? - directly into the brain was used to control the wrongful in Childhood's End.

Re:Clarke knew

[element-o.p.]

Can't be bad music -- the RIAA would never allow someone to listen to their music without paying the royalty :P

Microsoft

[Tablizer]

"Clippy followed me home from the office! Make it shut up, aaarrrrrrggghh!"

This seems familiar...

[k3nnyd]

I could of sworn I read about this in a Popular Mechanics/Science. I remember an article about a guy that made this exact thing. It was a laser device that you could point at someones head and transmit sound directly to them, resonating off their skull perhaps and only they hear it. People were talking of crazy applications for it like personalized advertising as you walked around a shopping mall or something. Rather invasive I'd say.

INWO

[bughunter]

Why does the news these days sound more and more like a Steve Jackson game?

"In other news, the Bavarian Illuminati today used The Pentagon to make an attack to control The Orbital Mind Control Lasers, aided by the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow. In response, the Gnomes of Zurich committed 3 Megabucks to interfere, which The Pentagon was unable to counter. The Pentagon then attempted to spend 5 Megabucks to make the attack Privileged, however The Discordian Society and Servants of Cthulhu objected, correctly, that this special ability must be asserted when first declaring the attack. The Bavarian Illuminati required a modified 7 or less to succeed in its attack, however, it rolled an eleven, automatically failing. On its next turn, Servants of Cthulhu successfully attacked to destroy the Orbital Mind Control Lasers, just for the hell of it. Joe Malik, NPR News, Washington."

Re:INWO

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why does the news these days sound more and more like a Steve Jackson game

Because the Trilogy wasn't fiction. (First thing I thought of when seeing the 9/11 Pentagon photos was whether or not all five rings had been breached and if he had gotten out.)

Time travel only works backwards. Merlin was just a guy with some high-tech gadgets, but he awed 'em back in the Authurian age. aScience fiction authors re just writing out their memoirs. Robert Anton Wilson was one of them.

"Their grip on Washington is still pretty precarious. They've been able to socialize the economy. But if they showed their hand now and went totalitarian all the way, there would be a revolution. Middle-readers would rise up with right-wingers, and left-libertarians, and the Illuminati aren't powerful enough to withstand that kind of massive revolution. But they can rule by fraud, and by fraud eventually acquire access to the tools they need to finish the job of killing off the Constitution."

"What sort of tools?"

"More stringent security measures. Universal electronic surveillance. No-knock laws. Stop and frisk laws. Government inspection of first-class mail. Automatic fingerprinting, photographing, blood tests, and urinalysis of any person arrested before he is charged with a crime. A law making it unlawful to resist even unlawful arrest. Laws establishing detention camps for potential subversives. Gun control laws. Restrictions on travel. The assassinations, you see, establish the need for such laws in the public mind. Instead of realizing that there is a conspiracy, conducted by a handful of men, the people reason--or are manipulated into reasoning--that the entire populace must have its freedom restricted in order to protect the leaders. The people agree that they themselves can't be trusted. Targets for assassination will be mavericks of left or right who are either not part of the Illuminati conspiracy or have been marked as unreliable. The Kennedy brothers and Martin Luther King, for example, were capable of mobilizing a somewhat libertarian left-right-black-white populist movement. But the assassinations that have occurred so far are nothing compared to what will take place. The next wave will be carried out by the Mafia, who will be paid in Illuminati gold."

"Not Moscow gold," said George with a smile.

"The puppets in the Kremlin have no idea that they and the puppets in the White House are working for the same people. The Illuminati control all sorts of organizations and national governments without any of them being aware that others are also controlled. Each group thinks it is competing with the others, while actually each is playing its part in the Illuminati plan. Even the Morituri--the six-person affinity groups which splintered from the SDS Weathermen, because the Weathermen seemed too cautious--are under the control of the Illuminati. They think they're working to bring down the government, but actually they are strengthening its hand. The Black Panthers are also infiltrated. Everything is infiltrated. At present rate, within the next few years the Illuminati will have the American people under tighter surveillance than Hitler had the Germans. And the beauty of it is, the majority of the Americans will have been so frightened by Illuminati-backed terrorist incidents that they will beg to be controlled as a masochist begs for the whip."

We're twelve for twelve fnord on the first list of things in that first paragraph.

But that's also got to be one of them coincidences.

How do we know they're not just fucking with us?

[Anonymous Coward]

How hard would it be for some random Air Force flunky to classify a document referring to using lasers to put voices in people's heads, knowing that it would get declassified later?

And he's now off somewhere just laughing his ass off.

VALIS

[Anonymous Coward]

See Philip K. Dick's VALIS.

What could it be?

[Moisteri]

Shh!! Can You hear that? I think it's those frikkin' sharks with frikkin' laser beams attached to their heads!!

military thought transmission

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in the military, those bastards would get right up in your face and say stuff right into your ear.

I guess it's true they're getting softer.

Re:How do we know they're not just fucking with us

[Slackhead]

Yes I am!

Joke all you want about this

[TheDarkener]

But I think this is f*cking disgusting. How can anyone with a clear conscience develop this to control its own kind?

Oh wait, it's the DOD. They have no conscience.

I say again, this is f*cking disgusting.

Re:Joke all you want about this

[youthoftoday]

Hear hear.

Re:Joke all you want about this

[DrVomact]

Sometimes, the only response to something this disgusting is gallows humor.

Negotiate?

[EdIII]

could be useful for controlling crowds or in negotiations

Really? How so? Sounds more like a tactic that could be used against a hostage taker to confuse or agitate him, but clearly not useful to conduct negotiations.

Negotiate implies a discussion between 2 parties to reach a mutually beneficial agreement. I don't see any part of a laser beam sending "voices" (plural would be even worse) into somebody else's head facilitating a discussion.

Now maybe taking this whole technology away from the menacing tones of the article, which is certainly implied by "controlling crowds", there might be very beneficial applications for the deaf, hearing impaired, etc. However, "negotiate" is still a bad word to use to communicate that possibility.

Re:Negotiate?

[petermgreen]

I guess they mean "negotiations" in the sense of hostage negotiations or similar. That is basically to persude the criminals that resistance is futile and attempts to resist will just make the situation worse for them (not an easy task when the criminal knows full well that even if they cooperate they are still looking at serious time in prison).

Re:Negotiate?

[EdIII]

I don't see it valuable even in those situations. How is "beaming" your voice into a hostage takers head a positive ability? It is without their consent. I don't say that to advocate privacy rights, or human rights, even they I hold them both to be sacrosanct. I say that since doing so can be quite unnerving and agitating to an individual. They will not have the ability to "turn it off". I don't think we need to find out how hostage takers will respond to this in the field. I think I already have an idea.

Re:Negotiate?

[DrVomact]

I don't see it valuable even in those situations. How is "beaming" your voice into a hostage takers head a positive ability?

In their eyes, It's positive. Remember, these are the people who thought that ceaselessly broadcasting the amplified screams of dying bunnies would produce a "satisfactory" resolution at Waco. To them, "negotiations" are something like, "Hi, I am a talking laser pointed at your head. Meet my friend, the targeting laser." If the hostage takers then go nuts and kill everyone...well, that just shows they were bad people.

I don't really expect better of the government, but there really ought to be some moral outrage directed at the engineers who prostitute themselves by working on this kind of trash.

if you want declassifed info on this stuff

[solweil]

Check out the MKULTRA section of the Mind Control subsection of the documents at www.theblackvault.com There are thousands of pages on things like using drugs for brainwashing and electricity to induce hypnosis.

My new excuse!

[4D6963]

Sorry. The laser made me do it!

The voices where right....

[Captain Arr Morgan]

the government IS trying to control my thoughts.

Well at least we know what happened.......

[edwardpickman]

in the 2000 and 2004 elections. Thought control lasers make more sense than the election results did.

Re:Well at least we know what happened.......

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's YUO that is crazy!

another ghost in the shell reference

[garlicbready]

It's kind of funny, but the first thing I thought of when seeing this
was the "brain phone" in ghost in the shell, whereby the persons voice can be heard inside the head
(now if we could just get it to be 2 way)

still, there's no telling what long term exposure would do
microwaved brain anyone?

Advertisers Are Already On To This

[Selfunfocused]

Ad campaigns are already projecting voices into our heads. The technology is slightly different, but the effect is the same.

PK Dick

[palaround]

Anyone read Valis?

Just like the movie "Inner Space".

[Neanderthal Ninny]

This reminds me about a hilarious scene in the movie "Inner Space" where Tuck Pendleton (played by Dennis Quaid) has miniaturized and now inside of Jack Putter (played by Martin Short) Tuck is trying talk by mean of special device and Jack starts to hear Tuck's voice inside of him and then screams "I'm possessed!".
The doctors says we can rule out demonic possession because demons talk through you and not to you.

beware of voices

[meeya]

well' this can happen anytime apparently. http://laugh10.com/jokes/beware-of-voices

Non-lethal Microwave Heating????

[woolio]

non-lethal technologies such as microwave heating.

I think many a feline would disagree about the non-lethality of a microwave oven.

Three words.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Voice of God". Can't say anymore. Do some digging. It's slang for a real technology.

This guy hears voices: real or in needs meds?

[itsybitsy]

There is this guy, Rhys Paul Hovey, up in Vancouver, BC, Canada who claims to hear voices in his apartment. His theory is that some group, such as Scientology, is beaming voices at him. He claims that a few of his friends also hear these voices. He claims to have recorded them off of a metal door in his apartment.

Here are his self made videos on YT:
http://youtube.com/user/rhyspaulhovey

Plus he was seen at an Anonymous demonstration on Feb 10th. He's starts his ranting away at 43 seconds into the video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SfzYgiKKpQ&feature=related

It's more likely either a prank by Ryhs himself, a friend of his, a neighbor he might have pissed off, an enemy of his, or - oh, could it be the case - that he really needs care, possibly with medications? Maybe he stopped taking his meds?

So now all those that hear voices have a plausible explanation what are their therapists to do?

Given the technology of sound projection, voice projection into heads with lasers, what do you do when someone claims that they are hearing voices? What do you do?

Proof positive

[Anonymous Coward]

That the Pentagon has far too much money available to them. While I'm all for maintaining national security and advancing science, it sure seems these guys waste far too much money in general. Der Fuhrer Bush has submitted a $515 BILLION dollar budget for the Pentagon for 2009 - and that doesn't even address the messes he got us involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. Mind you, this is a 30% increase in military budget allocation since he took office. Let's see what pork they can come up with in the coming years!

Meanwhile, we continue to borrow and borrow and erode away at the infrastructure.

Lasers to beam voices? Pitiful.

Tin Foil Hat Saves the Day Again.

[surfcow]

As long as my brain doesn't go all Jiffy-pop.

Ew.

reminds me of...

[scapermoya]

the HyperSonic Sound technology. not a laser, just highly-directed ultrasound. I read about this a few years back in some science magazine (pop sci maybe?). Not only can you point it at someone and have them be the only ones who can hear it, but if pointed at a suitable surface (glass, stone, etc), it will emit sound from that point. imagine a surround sound speaker system contained in a small box, pointing these ultrasonic beams of sound at different parts of the room. You could imagine a completely continuous distribution of sound. goodbye 7.1, hello infinity.1.

neat stuff.

here is a Forbes article from 2003 with a better description of the technology. apparently it relies on an acoustic phenomenon where two different frequencies interact, yielding two new frequencies where one is the sum of the first two and the other is the difference. it also mentions their intended applications (imagine a coke machine beaming sounds of fizzy cola into your brain as you walk by...)

Who wants to be a millionaire?

[kn0tw0rk]

With a bit of subtlety....

Just have some one with this setup to beam the 'answers' to a contestant.

Or you could go for a variation of the mechanical turk and pwn in chess tournaments.

Silly Muggles

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey fellas, I've got the perfect solution for all of your ambitions:
Imperius, Cruciatus, Avada Kaedavra
Control anyone (scrap those inelegant lasers), "persuade" anyone (totally legal because their life isn't threatened, right?), and of course kill anyone without a trace, just gimme 50 cen...galleons.
Oh, it's only fiction? But so are your ambitions.
Another 10 years ahead and the US won't EVER dream of world domination AGAIN.

The government using lasers? No problem!

[E-Lad]

I've got the perfect protection from their mind control lights!

http://elektronkind.org/localimg/laserprotection.jpg

(no, don't worry... it's not goatse bait)

THAT! EXPLAINS IT!

[Mr.Ballmer]

I was wondering where all these voices telling me to do evil things were coming from! ... http://fakesteveballmer.blogspot.com/

More likely story

[Raptoer]

A much more likely story as to the "gay bomb" is that some hormone researcher ran out of funds, and in desperation went for DoD money saying he could make a "gay bomb". I doubt the researcher would ever actually be able to make one, nor would there be an effective delivery system. If you can land a bomb that close upwind of them, why not just drop a couple, less expensive bombs and actually kill them instead of just disabling them for a little while?

Re:More likely story

[Captain DaFt]

News of a dead soldier is "A hero and a martyr to our just cause."

Rumors of soldiers going gay in the trenches is "Evidence that this useless war is
destroying the moral fabric of our society."

Which one do you want the other side's folks back home to be believing?

Not entirely new ideas

[DynaSoar]

US Patent 4,877,027
Issue date: Oct 31, 1989
Inventor: Wayne B. Brunkan

Abstract

Sound is induced in the head of a person by radiating the head with microwaves in the range of 100 megahertz to 10,000 megahertz that are modulated with a particular waveform....

So...

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know that you have the right guy to begin with? That's where it all breaks down.
And even if you have a consistent story, I wonder if it would remain consistent under torture.

I don't suppose you have anything to prove your statements, either, do you? Something other than an episode of 24, that is.

Re:So...

[Jeppe Salvesen]

How do you know that you have the right guy to begin with? That's where it all breaks down.
And even if you have a consistent story, I wonder if it would remain consistent under torture.

Sounds like it is important for torturers to torture both guilty and innocent people as part of their training. Hopefully, they'll figure out a way to tell them apart!

Human rights?

[popmaker]

Hmm, wasn't there some international law against torture? And won't this new form of it be exactly as painful and devastating as the older ones? Shouldn't they, like, NOT be investigating this or at least not be letting us know about it?

Just asking...

Let's get this straight

[CurtMonash]

The GOVERNMENT has been doing MIND CONTROL experiments to induce VOICES IN THE HEAD using technology that can be combatted by TINFOIL HATS.

Maybe there really are alligators in the sewers too.

The Gods must be Crazy

[CustomDesigned]

After terrorists assault the government offices, killing some ministers but missing the president, the police "torture" one of the terrorists captured during the escape. In a technique reminiscent of waterboarding, they put him blindfolded into a helicopter, and after several minutes of questions in the hovering helicopter, which he refuses to answer, they push him out the door. He screams, but lands on the grass unhurt - the helicopter is hovering only a few feet above the ground. They threaten to keep taking it higher before pushing him out unless he tells where the hideout it.

And, the point of my comment, he gives in and tells them. So they go to attack the hideout. But, the terrorist mastermind was waiting for them (and it isn't their permanent hideout) and takes out the helicopter with a SAM. So even when "torture" works, you still don't know if it is deliberate misinformation. The person under torture doesn't necessarily know whether the information he is trying not to reveal is real or misinformation.

Re:The Gods must be Crazy

[MikeBabcock]

More interestingly, the psychological condition of the person being tortured must be considered. Many people in torturous conditions believe either they will eventually be set free (and therefore have no need to give up information) or believe they will never be set free and/or killed once they are of no use (and therefore shouldn't give up information).

so as a fun mixer...

[asterix404]

How about you shoot crowds full of microwaves (which does happen and is considered a less then lethal form of crowd control) causing burns on 90% of their skin, then put thoughts in their heads that say they like it. Perfect for any up and coming dictator/G8 meeting facilitator/WTO president!

Well aren't you. . .

[Fantastic Lad]

a twisted little beastie.

I'm sure you'd go far with the right employers.

Here's a question: How do torturers practice their skills? How does an agency determine the best way to exact pain? A homeless test subject scooped from the streets has nothing to confess which will stop such "explorations". --Of course, information collection is just an excuse. The real reason people torment one another is to feed, so accuracy is hardly an important issue, except to keep the self-deception spinning so long as it is necessary.

In any case, there is little doubt that you will find yourself one day strapped to a table learning the other side of the coin, karma being what it is. Sadly, compassion is usually learned through direct exposure to suffering.

I suspect my words must sound like babble at the moment, but I'll wish you good luck anyway.

-FL

i guess i dont need olanzapine after all

[meridian]

i knew i wasnt crazy the medication wasnt helping much!

It keeps interrupting the other voices in my head.

[alfredo]

At least it speaks English.

like this?

[derfy]

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/15/1846234

Directional sound isn't new or classified

[Botweiser]

The idea of creating a focused beam of sound is not new. What the article refers to as "putting voices in people's heads" really is more like aiming an audio source at them that is so narrowly focused that only they can hear it. The science behind this has been around since the first attempts at sonar, though the technology to make practical use of it probably hasn't been around as long. I remember seeing some program on PBS about some audio company (Bose?) working on this to create speakers in cars that would direct sound to a specific seat.

Read here for a fairly simple explanation.

Re:Directional sound isn't new or classified

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but you obviously didn't RTFA.

Someone ask Cartman?

[UnkleB00B]

If there is a "brown noise", could it also be possible to have a "brown wavelength"...

Mind control

[Yvanhoe]

From TFA, it looks like some people in the Pentagon really thought they could develop mind control RF beams. For those who didn't read it, it is about generating pulses of electromagnetic waves directionally (hence the abuse of the word "lasers") in order to make some part of the skull vibrate (to produce sound) or even to trigger neurons in some parts of the brain, mainly to cause spasms and unconsciousness.

I for one am afraid of the military (and police) potential for these, but I am clearly interested to see applications in the civilian market ! If one could trigger very localized parts of the brain, this could give us the feedback loop that is missing in most of the brain-to-computer interfaces made today.

Sweet

[Malevolent Tester]

How feasible would it be for the average citizen to do this to that "MI5 Persecution" guy?

Unfortunately torture does work

[Shivetya]

The difference being that the movies rarely go to the extent that man really will. A former friend, passed away, who served in Vietnam described some stuff the locals would do to get the information they wanted. For all the crap we hear about in Gitmo, Gitmo has nothing on what these monsters would do. The key wasn't to do one person but use a crowd. Let the others see what was coming up. Since most information extracted could be acted on immediately they could verify what they were after.

waterboarding is for sissys was his reply when all the talk about it came on the news, what he saw people of other countries do would shock people and worse it goes on to this day. One of our mutal friends is from Cambodia and the same rule applied...

torture isn't always about getting information, it works very well in cowing many of elements in society who would otherwise try to stop a government, over the long term it eventually turns against the governmetn but some have lasted generations by this fear method

Re:Unfortunately torture does work

[MikeBabcock]

I should have qualified my comments. Torture as a way of extracting reliable information from prisoners is not effective in general. Torture as a method of conducting terrorism works great (which is what you described at the end).

Its a good thing the US doesn't do things like say, repeatedly play videos of cops taking down suspects and criminals with prejudice with the effect of scaring people into compliance in general.

This is truly sick

[flajann]

You know, Hitler and Stalin would be mighty proud that the US is developing this despicable high-tech torture technology that could be used to, say, put down war protesters or any other demonstration the government found disfavorable.

And I am always leery when they claim it's "non-lethal". A so-called "non-lethal" gun killed a woman after a ball game in Boston not all that long ago.

Some may criticize my Libertarian stance, but this is a good reason why I am. I am against any government that promotes oppression and torture. It is a sign that the government has grown too large and too powerful, and stands poised to strip us of what few remaining freedoms we have left by these "modern technologies."

Well, we can either site around and let it happen, or we can take action -- assuming it's not too late already.

Typo

[Jumphard]

The summary mentions "microwave heating". The article refers to microwave hearing.
I don't think a conventional microwave oven is something that the Pentagon would have in a top secret document.

Can I pre-order one?

[chord.wav]

See that man over there? The one with glasses which is pointing you with that strange device? Well, you should know he's rich, he's exactly your type, he's sensitive just to the level you want a man to be and in the showers everybody calls him "Everest". You know you want him.

Holy annoying crap, batman!

[manowar821]

This brings up new forms of rick-rolling, never before thought to be possible! You thought you were safe from it by not getting on the computer? HAHA, that's rich!

if they flip the laser polarity 180 degrees,

[oobi]

will it remove voices from your head??

Air loom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like an updated version of the air loom