Slashdot Mirror
China Blocks YouTube Over Tibet Videos
Screaming Cactus writes "Internet users in China were blocked from seeing YouTube.com on Sunday after dozens of videos about protests in Tibet appeared on the site. 'Chinese leaders encourage Internet use for education and business but use online filters to block access to material considered subversive or pornographic. Foreign Web sites run by news organizations and human rights groups are regularly blocked if they carry sensitive information. Operators of China-based online bulletin boards are required to monitor their content and enforce censorship.' The blocking added to the communist government's efforts to control what the public saw and heard about protests that erupted Friday in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, against Chinese rule."
before China blocks Slashdot?
Don't mind the extra X. Alex
Maybe you want to consider hosting psiphon server?
http://psiphon.civisec.org/
I've traveled to China a few times, and encounter plenty of Chinese students at my university. All seem to be aware that their government is authoritarian and has done some terrible things, in spite of all the blocking. Nonetheless, without exception every Chinese person I've spoke with on the issue insists that a hard line is needed to keep the country together. Since the Chinese population, for cultural and historical reasons, seems okay with what's going on, is blocking the Internet even necessary?
It'll be interesting to see how quickly GooTube caves and removes the videos. After all, they were willing to alter their search in order to gain access to Chinese markets. Let's see how far they're willing to bend over.
Millions of spambots, what else? If they want a Great Firewall of China, I'm happy to help!
I'd encourage everyone to simply null route China's netblocks and enjoy the sudden decrease in criminal activity.
I don't see how we continue to support the olympics in such a country. It's not that they're communist. It's not that they're corrupt. It's that they're against the very fundamental freedoms that the olympics represents.
At least they managed to block the site without knocking YouTube completely off the Web.
RichM
Data Center Knowledge
China is becoming a bigger and bigger enemy by the day. First, its all the hacking into our government and then trying to control tibet. I mean they're going after the Dalai lama, the peoples religious leader, have some respect or decency at least. I don't see how China is fit to host the Olympics. Do the athletes know that people are dying in tibet just so China can run the Olympic torch through tibet? Its all messed up. They are not ready yet. All that without even touching on censorship. And so from now own, I will refer to China as Va China.
Read all three parts of it, the author summarizes both sides of the issue in order for people to see that the Tibet issue is much more than just a communist regime bullying an occupied region, for example:
I know I might be modded offtopic but the discussion of Chinese censorship of Tibet videos will no doubt lead to the discussion of Tibet vs China itself. I'm just asking everyone to please form their opinion after looking at both sides of the issue, and how each side feels about it. Try not to base your opinion solely on just what you hear news.
This is where something like Usenet is still better than "The Web". It doesn't even require tcp/ip to function and therefore has no centralised control. With something like an NNTP server running on every phone, over bluetooth, it would be pretty much impossible to prevent the spread of information.
Walk past someone in the street and your phone syncs it's "newsgroups" with the other phone. The smartphones around these days are coming with 2Gb of storage and 300MHz processors. More than 100,000 are being purchased per day in China.
Deleted
I remain unimpressed with George W. Bush's magic plan to spread democracy by borrowing billions of dollars from China and doing business with them whenever possible. Articles like this only reinforce this feeling, as if it needed reinforcing.
Well, at least they did not bring down You-Tube like Pakistan clumsily did when they blocked it...
If you want to see something crazy, check out the political spam in the comments of these videos. It is unbelievable the ratio of how many people are calling Tibetans liars and cheering on the Chinese. These are recent posts calling the Dalai Lama a terrorist ringleader. It confuses me that so many people outside the great firewall are posting this stuff.
Anyone want to help me mod these comments down, and rate these videos up?
It seems to me that there's a pretty big language barrier that prevents us from hearing much from most chinese internet users. The ones i met in china tended to stick to purely chinese sites, which i found quite hard to read with only my basic level of chinese.
("if we get some chinese comments, perhaps people here can translate them")
"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."
--Albert Einstein
Just because you take it as propaganda doesn't mean that others don't have a more leveled response to this statement. For example, you could take it as saying: "what is going on with this type of morality?". If a person condones authoritarian rule, what is the need for censorship? Yet these people seem to do both? This statement is about the human condition, and not politics. Personally I think a lot of official chinese statements express an embarrassingly amorale attitude.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
yea people sorta go crazy when the government kills their relatives
I'm not trying to bait or anything but I am curious. Why does the internet community give so much energy to the liberation of Tibet but they don't do the same to the USA, South Africa, Australia etc that are overrun and controlled by accupying colonial powers. Yes they may be 'democracies' but if you go and speak to a native aborigony and ask them about it I think that their perspective would be different to that of some slashdotters. There are occupying forces all over the world and all throughout history - I just wonder why we choose to make a fuss over Tibet when there are injustices in our own backyard that we are choosing to ignore.
http://projectleader.wordpress.com
Don't back down to China on this one, it would be unethical to remove the videos so that the site could be seen in China. By letting the Chinese government pressure you into doing this, would mean letting their powers having a direct negative impact on us here in the West.
- Aetheral Research -
China has installed a media blackout (Chinese public doesn't know what is going on), they don't want to get the same response as Burma did get when the protest where cursed there few months back. But not only that, China government has also closed down the border zone between China and Tibet. Preventing tourist and reporters to get inside the occupied country. They do this as they don't want a new 1989 for the world to see. Chinese news agents are spewing out propaganda at the moment, nothing that comes from them is accurate or true on what is happening.
Let's not forget the fact that China did invade Tibet in 1950 and claimed Tibet as there own, while Tibet is in fact indepent country that is military occupied. While in fact that is not the case. U.N should have for long time protested the China occupation of Tibet long time ago. It is however sad fact that the business deals prevent that from happening.
I expect information on the action of Chinese military forces to come to light soon. As I expect that the information is going to get out one way or an other. View of the Chinese public are based on what the government chooses to tell them, not necessary the facts of what is going on.
We are going to see more bloodshed to happen in Tibet for some time now. However, it is as question how much of it reaches international media.
'cause it ain't China
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Because "Free USA!" just doesn't have the ring of "Free Tibet!" and the bumper stickers wouldn't be as colorful as the Tibet ones: red, white and blue as apposed the rainbow of the Tibet one?
Free Australia would just have all of us (me anyway) thinking Fosters is giving their beer away for free, and the Free South Africa was done by Nelson Mandela - a better man than I'll ever be.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
If Tibet and the other western provinces break away then so will Taiwan, parts of Manchuria and then maybe Macao and Hong Kong. They don't want their population to get into 'dangerous and subversive' ideas like independence, human rights or democratic government.
"The more you tighten your grip, Mr. Hu, the more star systems, I mean provinces, will slip through your fingers."
I have a feeling that over time, as people increasingly leave the Communist party in favor of the booming economic opportunities that are exploding all over China, these sorts of government abuses will simply go away. Sure, the government will fight to maintain its position of power over everything, but there's only so long they can keep this going.
The information revolution is still in its early stages; there are still many institutions that depend upon hiding information to exist which haven't realized that their cloak of secrecy is blowing away in the breeze. China's government is the largest of these institutions - but they'll eventually discover that the harder you try to hide the information the more widely distributed it becomes.
Those authoritarian leaders can block YouTube - and their team of spooks can try to discover all the proxy servers and block them too. But it's a lost cause; they may slow the spread, but they can't prevent their tales from being told to all who are interested.
Will those leaders finally discover how to totally hide their misdeeds - or will they finally fall when their subjects discover what kind of leaders they have and vote them out / overthrow them?
It's going to take a few years for all this stuff to sort itself out. But I think that in the end, there's going to be a lot more freedom in this world of ours.
When you buy a product made in China you are indirectly supporting them. So why do it?
As far as the Chinese people and her Government are concerned, Tibet is and has always been a part of China. That's their point of view and that's why you're not going to see anything negative about this from China and her people. And why they don't give a rat's ass about what we decedent, stupid, lazy, barbarian Westerners have to say about it.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
Given that amongst the /. readership there must be quite a few webmasters it should be possible to mirror some of the banned content on lots of webservers/sites around the world. If this was done, say, all on a single day and as such a day I would suggest day one of the games in August, then no way could China shut down access to all the sites at once. True, the average Chinese browser would have a job finding some sites, but if there were enough of them then the chances of someone stumbling upon the content would be pretty good. Also, links could be created to the content from other websites which have a higher profile. The web would be flooded with stuff the Chinese Govt doesn't want punters to see but they shouldn't be able to lop off large tracts of the web without annoying all the foreign journalists based there during the games.
Just a thought...
Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
all chinese characters i have typed here became dot...
i take it as a censorship
China, in fact, is very fragile.
They should have done this in August - more publicity and much harder for the Chinese authorities to deny it had happened.
I find that Nico Nico Video is still accessible and fully usable. Yes, call me a weeaboo all you like for using a Japanese site but at least it works.
OSx86 FTW
You are over simplifying things. Western provinces can't survive without the East, why do you think so many people from the West travel to the East for work. If they become separate and independent, say goodbye to an open border.
As for Taiwan, they're just as bad as the PRC. Taiwan asserts ownership over all of mainland China (actually this view varies depending on which political party gets elected). Taiwan with its democracy is more corrupt than the CCP, just look at Chen Shui-bian. He would be under house arrest or in front of a firing squad if he pulled that shit in the PRC. The Western media didn't make a big deal out of his affairs because he is an ally.
Giving in to Taiwan would be like having let the Southern States form their own country. Furthermore, if your into "human rights" look at how Taiwans native tribes were treated by the Taiwanese Hans who took over.
If you have never lived in China, you don't know anything about the situation and should not comment.
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
I'll comment as I damn well please. That's what an open society with free speech is about.
The fact remains, however, that Tibet is an independent nation forcibly conquered and annexed by China. It is also a fact that China is blocking net access to news about Tibet. The Tibetan people have a right to have their country back. The Chinese people have a right to real news, news that isn't filtered and tweaked by the government. No amount of "preconceptions" should obscure our moral vision about this.
Sometimes you need to decide which side you're on.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Go to a bar (in the US) and talk about killing the Chinese president. See what happens when people overhear part of your conversation.
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
Since it's uch a mountainous,unpopulated,economically undeveloped area?Oh,maybe because it's our "Manifest Destiny".
I think what the above poster meant was that their attempts to control their population is similar to many extremist muslim countries. I think it's safe to say, based on China's past, the Chinese government tends to try and control what the average Chinese citizen sees and hears. If their philosophy is correct, why wouldn't they let the chips fall where they may and let truth prevail? To me, their attempts to silence information is testament to their fear their ideals won't hold water.
All I'm asking is why won't the Chinese government engage in intellectual debates instead of pretending differences don't exist?
Split it into even filegroups, china1 through china8
Task Mangler
Google's made it easy for them to block only the videos that make them look bad with their new country blocking XML tabs. Just add a "[media :restriction type="country" relationship="deny">CN]" and voi la! If you're not familiar with Google's latest (Do no evil???) addition to YouTube, do a little Googling to see the write-up that YouTomb did on the matter. China can either request it of Google or do a little in-session HTML mangling with their "Great Firewall". Bah! China can suck an egg...
The US does it's darnedest.
Go to a bar (in the US) and talk about killing the American president. See what happens when people overhear part of your conversation.
There, fixed that for you. (ie. I agree with you)Because absolute moral consistency is not a prerequisite for doing the right thing.
More to the point, no one is blocking Texan access to the net, or anything else for that matter. Texans, and Mexicans, are fully aware of their history. The Chinese people are not aware of Tibet's recent history because the government controls the media and their access to the net.
Besides, Mexico acquired Texas by force from Spain, which had acquired it by force from any number of indigenous peoples, who, in turn, were often at each other's throats. How far back do you want to go? Few of us, if anyone, live on land that was not forcibly taken from someone else at some point in history.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
basically, the cenorship mainly affects the average interent user. it blocks the hottest topics through triggle words, nuked domain name. or black lists of websites. technically and usually, a working proxy can bypass most of these blockade. so reaching out is not really hard.. the main problem is the english language rather than the censorship.
Reading unlawful information is seldom interested by the authority, as long as the reader does not redistribute the information..
it's like to say. you can watch porn online.nobody cares, but if you build a website selling porn. the police will get you..
also amount of data would not interest the police. sharing porn video via p2p is quite rampant in china. the law bans it, but young computer user still have their way..
China, in fact, is very fragile.
So because America has a few ridiculous restrictions, that justifies the fully barbaric Chinese stance?
Only speak when it improves the silence.
"Few of us, if anyone, live on land that was not forcibly taken from someone else at some point in history."
Without commenting on China/Tibet, i would like to say that this is a point that really needs to be repeated more often, as most of the population doesn't seem to be aware of it.
Especially in the western regions, Chinese authoritarianism is mainly directed at preserving Han-Chinese supremacy over separatism among other ethnic groups, such as the Tibetans (in Tibet) and Turkic groups (in Xinjiang). This involves both the sort of direct control and suppression we see here, and more subtly and long-term, a program of sending Han Chinese settlers into those regions to dilute the non-Han majority.
As you might expect, you get different views on this issue if you talk to Han vs. non-Han Chinese citizens.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Even though much of the world can't read Chinese anyway, it would be nice retaliation. Lets start by blocking all Chinese corporation web sites, then government sites. Let individuals, blogs, ordinary email get through. That would certainly reduce our trade deficit! Suddenly companies from countries with higher living wages would get a chance at the US market. Of course Walmart would go under, but who cares.
I'm not clear what you imagine will happen.
If I go to a bar in my (US) town and am overheard actively plotting murder by people who think I'm serious, maybe there would be trouble, but that seems appropriate.
If I'm overheard saying "Hu JinTao sucks, I'd like to kill him", people would say, well, they'll say "Who's that?" If I say I want to kill George Bush, I'll get equal mweasures of "Hey, that's a bit overboard" and "Damn straight!". But nothing would "happen"; we'd just have a rowdy conversation about how much our government sucks. From what I hear from Chinese acquaintances, rowdy bar room conversations about how much Hu Jintao sucks are not something that happens in China.
Because Free countries have forgoten that they got that way be acts of treason. If Puerto R or Hawaii wanted freedom ...the blood would flow just like during the civil war. Some conveient excuse would be used then later glossed over with a better one. And don't be fooled. There is no difference between Liberal Democrat or Conservative Republican, end the end they are all just servants to the monster they have created. Sad as it is to say, I forsee a day in my life, or the life of my children or grandchildren where those who think for themselves may be deemed terrorists and have to stand against their own country. What will the world say about the US then? Will there be sympathy for the poor government putting down these angry ursurpers? Or will there be "Free the People" movements?
> If you have never lived in China, you don't know anything about the situation and should not comment.
I've lived in both China and Taiwan. I was also a Chinese major, speak, read and write Chinese, and have a fair amount of friends from mainland China (both peasants and city dwellers) and Taiwan. I also have a number of friends that are members of the CCP. Does this qualify me to comment?
> As for Taiwan, they're just as bad as the PRC.
Have you lived in Taiwan before?
Taiwan is nothing like the PRC. In the PRC, corruption permeates to even the most petty of bureaucrats, who must be bribed for simple things like marriage licenses and being allowed to continue to farm your own meager plot of land. Seeing the money wasted by mid-level party officials at their 3 hour "liquid lunches" in Beijing (and hearing about it from my friends in the party) was stomach-turning, knowing what the families of my friends were going through as peasants. (My friend's younger sister -- 13 years old -- worked 15 hour days, 7 days a week in a windowless factory to help support her family, and made herself sick in the process.)
Taiwan does not assert ownership over the mainland -- what sloppy thinking! The Nationalist Party asserts that it is the rightful ruling party of all of China, and so desires unification. Other parties' desires and opinions vary.
When the Nationalists retreated to Taiwan, they massacred quite a large number of people they feared were leftists. This was probably Taiwan's greatest human-rights tragedy. But that has been acknowledged and apologized for, for what little it's worth. Don't expect that kind of acknowledgment in the PRC, though, where Tibet has always been a part of China, China never invaded Vietnam, the Korean war started when the US invaded North Korea, and serious human rights violations never happen.
Taiwan's policy of asserting ownership of all China is strictly for political reasons, and if you knew anything about the politics you'd understand that. China's policy is that if Taiwan declares independence, China goes to war with Taiwan (and would militarily steamroll it, because nobody else wants to intervene). While devastating to world opinion, it wouldn't stop China from doing it just to make a point. So instead of declaring independence, Taiwan makes the ridiculous claim that China should be unified... under the Taiwanese government. Amazingly, this non-confrontation policy has befuddled China's government for the past 50 years or so. China drew a clear line in the sand, and Taiwan has managed to keep its elected government without crossing it.
Taiwan's democratically elected government may be corrupt, but there is still open debate and freedom of the press. Hell, they're having political rallies a few days before an election, right now! The PRC's bureaucracy may well be corrupt, but there's a good chance that only party officials would find out about it. And even if they did, it's up to the party to change things, which they will only do if it's in their best interest. In Taiwan, people can vote out corrupt officials. If you think that'll ever happen in the PRC as it is, I have some beachfront property in Xinjiang you might be interested in.
If anything it helps me appreciate that I live in a country that allows me to see and search pretty well whatever I want, even if it's at my own risk. I really don't think anyone will die from not being allowed to see YouTube. Personally sometimes I wish my government would just block it lol just to keep me from losing IQ points from seeing some of the content posted. Just a joke if you're wondering, there are some great videos up there. (emphasis added) looks like some of that magical IQ diminishing content has already penetrated your brain.
cheers
check out my comic: Essential Tremors
"If you have never lived in China, you don't know anything about the situation and should not comment." Wow. Just wow. That is tantamount to saying that if you don't live in Kansas, you can't discuss the weather forecast for today for Topeka. The last three paragraphs of your post read like a Chinese propaganda poster, and even go so far as to SUPPRESS disagreement with your point of view. For shame.
And THIS "If you have never lived in China, you don't know anything about the situation and should not comment." gets moded INSIGHTFUL?
You've failed in making whatever point your were trying to make. People would look at you like you were insane, the same result as if you did the the same thing (only backwards) in a CHINESE bar.
Perhaps the government of China doesn't want his citizens to see how their fellow Chinese were beaten up by the tibetian mob, in order to avoid further public uproars? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmqWRoZaFMk
Very interesting post. Well I have to assume that the Chinese people aren't dumb and this level of corruption must be obvious. I imagine it's simply tolerated as part of the system they grew up with like most people here can't seem to understand the concept of a third party or non majority vote counting. Although if the majority of work available requires so many hours out of your day you would probably be beyond caring or ability to achieve much of an education.
Still when sites like Youtube, CNN, Wired News, etc all drop of the net all at once they must realize something interesting is going on. Is that correct?
Chinese leaders encourage Internet use for education and business but use online filters to block access to material considered subversive or pornographic"
So China blocking Tibet protest video using online filters (aka Great FireWall of China) is in lieu with their current policy. I call what being done in Tibet by Chinese government is nothing less than perversive and subversive in the eyes of international people and governing body.
On the other hand, I'm glad that this is not being blocked by the Great Firewall of China.... After all, this is very educational to Chinese.
http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/album-groupe-Gutslasher-nom_album-Soaking_Pus-l-fr.html
Tested From: Beijing, China
Tested At: 2008-03-16
21:31:45 (GMT -04:00)
URL Tested: http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/album-groupe-Gutslasher-nom_album-Soaking_Pus-l-fr.html
Resolved As: 84.16.82.44
Status: OK
Response Time: 4.715 sec
DNS: 1.994 sec
Connect: 0.431 sec
Redirect: 0.000 sec
First Byte: 0.487 sec
Last Byte: 1.803 sec
Size: 37061 bytes
MTR test
Host tested: www.spirit-of-metal.com/album-groupe-Gutslasher-nom_album-Soaking_Pus-l-fr.html
Test performed from: Beijing, China
Test performed at: 2008-03-16 21:34:07 (GMT -04:00)
Hop Hostname (IP) Country Loss Sent Rcvd Min (ms) Avg (ms) Max (ms)
1 203.142.12.193 CN 0 % 5 5 2.464 2.886 4.043
2 152.104.130.2 HK 0 % 5 5 1.187 280.118 404.183
3 219.142.0.125 CN 0 % 5 5 3.340 278.618 382.431
4 219.141.130.125 CN 0 % 5 5 151.107 317.364 421.079
5 202.97.53.10 CN 0 % 5 5 305.886 314.453 371.454
6 202.97.57.213 CN 0 % 5 5 0.000 340.311 375.547
7 202.97.51.66 CN 20 % 5 4 529.532 568.078 591.773
8 213.46.190.205 NL 0 % 5 5 554.250 625.319 753.485
9 213.46.190.9 NL 20 % 5 4 665.267 712.046 798.804
10 213.46.160.105 NL 20 % 5 4 698.243 750.289 802.327
11 213.46.160.26 NL 20 % 5 4 747.190 790.310 828.879
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
Both Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao got rickrolled.
In fact, YouTube had been banned even before Sunday in China. Since the Icelandic singer Björk's gave her live performance in Shanghai lastweek, singing a song "Declaring Independence" with the cry "Tibet! Tibe!", the trouble with YouTube began.
I haven't checked the TFA from Wired though. It seemed to be banned also. (I'm here in China.)
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
"Hypocrisy" and "Cuba".
China and the olympic comittee have already managed to get the next Olympic athletes to sign agreements that they will not blog or post anything about their participation, so what is next to be blocked? Will there be a censorship policy in place for the Olympics too?
At least China's polital system doesn't involve House Kung-fu.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo The video has already been there for 15 hours, during the first 12-13 hours, the viewer counter reached 100,388. So I guess many people are watching this. However, the viewer counter is unchanged for 3-4 hours. So youtube also blocked Chinese video?
Giving into Communist CHINA was like letting South win.... the "legitimate" government really did go to Taiwan and secure that provence, the Communists were the usurpers and took foreign & royal property, much like Castro in Cuba, whom we STILL have an embargo on. We've made Russia give up many territories that were part of Russia BEFORE WW2, why do we not make China let Taiwan & Tibet go? It's the same thing.
Congratulations- your post is the first -1 Insightful I have seen.
OSx86 FTW
> *If* the majority of the population of the island of Taiwan freely choose to become independent, why stop them?
I can see your point, but have you considered that they may actually *not* want to become independent. The way I heard it, and it sounds plausible, is that a lot of the population there actually do consider themselves Chinese and have strong links with families/etc on the mainland, and so *don't* want to become independent.
I would assume something similar in Tibet. Unfortunately, the radicals shout loudest and get most attention from media, so those are the people we tend to notice -and it's natural to assume they represent the majority (or at least a significant proportion), when there's really no way to tell without a referendum; and even then you have to wonder.
Max.
> Still when sites like Youtube, CNN, Wired News, etc all drop of the net all at once they must realize something interesting is going on. Is that correct?
Well, in my experience, youtube was never "*on* the 'net". I don't know about the others since I've infrequently visited them - and if I don't care to visit them, you can be sure Chinese people won't be bothered.
For all of those sites, I don't suppose many Chinese people visit them anyway. People here tend not to trust foreign media which is, at worst, biased and, at best, culturally/historically ignorant. Such sites are typically not in Chinese either, so people would have to be able to read something other than Chinese.
I think you put too much importance on foreign web sites in China.
For the record, CNN works just fine, but defaults to some US specific news. Clicking international gives some stories on it.
Wired.com is also online.
Heck, even foxnews.com is available....if you call that news. Ah, but the specific stories I click on seem to get '104'd, so I image they're blocked. Cnn ones seem to work though.
Max.
Of course, I get it, but seeing the idea of subversiveness from the outside looking in as opposed to how I grew up with it, made me stop and think.
When you break the word 'Subversive' down into its component words, Sub and Verse, it becomes plain; There is a song being sung, and in this case it is the Chinese national anthem. Those who live in China are compelled upon pain of something very painful to sing along. But the song is a lie, so those aware of this fact will sing off-key and drop in new words here and there, placing a sub-verse beneath the official line.
-FL
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Sent from my desktop computer
I'm typing this from an internet bar in Harbin, north-east China, so this is the perfect time to do some testing.
You can't get through to youtube (it gets redirected to Baidu), as TFA states. Let's just see how good this firewall is by trying 'Tibet protests' into google.cn:
OK, you get enough pages to find out pretty much everything you need to know (although it does feel a little strange - I feel like the police are going to come and arrest me at any time).
Americans seem to think they have access to all the information. Unfortunately, that is far from the truth. For example, YouTube is blocking your access to a BBC's documentary right now. See evidence here: http://yyhh.org/blog/2008/03/youtube-censors-bbcs-documentary-usa
"Always has been" is not a very accurate term to use. Tibet was not part of China until last two hundred years or so. It enjoyed self-governance for majority of its history. Second, China in fact had invaded Vietnam, Korea, Mongolia, and other countries along its borders throughout its history. Its borderline had expanded and diminished many times. And Korean War was started by North Korea's surprise attack on South Korea, not by USA.
Mao worship has many of the characteristics of an intolerant monotheistic religion. Many more ironically enough than some varieties of Buddhism which have the koan "The higher Buddha is not Buddha".
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Yeah, that's why they like receiving all the p3n1s enh@nc3m3nt emails.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
A surprising percentage of people that post stuff like this are American often born in Democrat stronghold like California. I would say a "blue state", but the phrase annoys me. I wish Americans would use standard terminology. Here is a quick primer
Rest of the world.
"Red" - Socialist or at least left of centre, after the colours of the Communist party. The UK Labour party often uses red themed logos, as do most left wing parties in Europe, Canada and Asia. The opposite of the "Blue block"
"Blue" - Liberal.
"Liberal" - a believer in free markets, free elections and minimal government. Margaret Thatcher called herself a liberal.
Americans have a tiresome habit of using all of these not just incorrectly but meaning the exact opposite what they mean in the rest of the world.
America
"Red" - The Republicans. Originally economic liberals, they now believe that the US governments' remit extends to bringing democracy to the middle east. It's hard to see that Milton Friedman would have supported this. Fiscally grossly irresponsible and with a annoying tendency to preach on social issues, like the Labour party in the 1970's.
"Blue" - The Democrats. Heavy support from the unions. Activists often rant on the Internet about how the Republicans are worse than Hitler which is just plain silly, but quite competent the last time they were in government.
"Liberal" - quasi socialist policies allegedly favoured by the Democrats.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I have been living in China for almost 8 years and have never had a problem bypassing the great firewall. Tools such as tor, ssh, and usenet are widely known by most Chinese geeks, so such efforts just make the government look that much more incompetent. Everyone knows what is going on... The Chinese government is fighting a losing battle against the will of the people. At best, they can only act as a speed-bump in the path of democracy.
You're joking right? You have to be, no one asserts history in such a grandiose manner and then fails so utterly. The only way this could be referenced to South in the Civil war is if Abraham Lincoln had, on a whimb, promised to go to the south and kill every Democrat for the good of the Union. Then you can say "Giving in to Taiwan would be the same (as that)". Believe it or not, despite the incredibly treasonous acts of the South, they were not tried as such and shot/hanged at wars end.
Also, you're full of it if embezzling a couple million dollars in Taiwan compares to corruption in China. China does not need to cheat to do the same thing, policy is pretty much whatever the party feels like, which makes such wonderously quaint ideas such as banking/currency adjustment moot over there. Sure if you are a no-name management fellow at factory where pesticides get into food or lead into toys you might be shot, but you also might be shot because you had nothing to do with it and the guy who did is higher up and gives the killing orders.
Mind you I'm not saying Taiwan is perfect nor am I saying China is all that evil. Using a true historical perspective draconian leaderships have always been the most successful in Asia, not that I think they still need one, but you can't really find a populous country in the region that doesn't have a list of human rights/democracy issues a mile long. Pitting one against another in a test of morals is like arguing the merits of banality over boredom.
I find it interesting that many people who "know" about the situation in China tell those who "don't know" that they should not comment. If only people who knew everything about a situation were allowed to comment, then no one would talk about anything, including you. Dialog is part of the process education and finding truth, and you are acting as an oppressor when you tell people to shut up. No one knows everything about any situation.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
As a Han Chinese who have lived in US for the last 10 years, and as someone who have spent some of his most memorable childhood years in Tibetan region, and who have a cousin married a Tibetan man, I am saddened by the whole things. I am especially disappointed by the rampant ignorance, bigotry and hatred displayed by all sides towards one another on most of the media, forums, and blogs. I don't think people are making any positive contributions to the situation. For people whose daily lives are actually involved, you guys can feel all the moral righteousness you want, but it means nothing, and you are only making things worse. Many Tibetan people think US can solve all their problems, but that is just a completely false illusion. Please do not help perpetrate that illusion any more. Perhaps you guys do not even realize that it is just a illusion because you guys are the victim of your own media's propaganda? For example, I have repeatedly pointed out that YouTube is blocking your access to a video about Tibet, no one seems to care. As someone who is already calling this country home, I find it frightening that you guys just voluntarily filter out information that does not fit your preconception.
Taiwan is not just as bad as the PRC, and I'll use your own statements to prove it.
First, you say that views vary in Taiwan depending on which party gets elected. At least there's multiple parties in Taiwan. Beijing has a one party system. It's either the commie way or the highway (read: death and sale of internal organs to wealthy westerners)
Then you say they would have shot Chen for having an affair. Is this respect for human rights? Do you honestly think it's a good idea to violently kill infidels?
Then you say they would be like the Confederate States of America to let Taiwan become independent. What were your comrades in Beijing doing during the 80's when Taiwan was reforming? (Hint: Tiananmen Square) Human rights violations by the KMT are history. The CCP is killing dissenters in Tibet today.
And assuming I never lived in China...wow. If you're right and Taiwan is really the rightful property of China then I have probably lived there longer than you.
He was talking about what Chinese schools teach children, not what actually happened.
Hate... America much?
Nope, not even a little bit. Actually I'm a big fan.
However I also am a person who is free to express their opinion on any subject without fear of persecution, and I do so. Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong, I still can and will, it's this thing we like to call 'debate'.
Besides, any government which cannot be criticized, is a government that will tip into tyranny.
So just like any sane person from a modern free democracy, there is no fear that the autocrats ideals 'won't hold water', there is an absolute certainty that the autocrats ideals 'don't hold water' and the only way they can hold back freedom and democracy is with carefully managed lies and the point of a bayonet.
The current Chinese governments insists it has the right to use military aggression to maintain and obtain dominance over countries based upon the flimsiest of historical ties, so Tibet, Taiwan, and even Korea as well as some other regions suffer under oppression or the threat of future aggression.
That the Olympics should be held in autocratic countries at all, points to that fact that Olympic sized profits and marketing deals take precedence over the ideals and values of amateur athletes from the past. Although it already appears that some athletes are bowing out rather than taking the risk of exposure to carcinogenic pollutants prevalent in the Beijing environment.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
/TROLLish comment
/END OF TROLL
One could argue that this is something which was done 50 years ago, just like with Israel and Palestine. So now we should either tell tibet to consider themselves part of China, or have the same negative reaction to new Israeli settlement in the gaza band.
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Just a thought, but I think it will be quite some time, decades, before we see significant change in China in terms of the Party's dealings with corruption, their own people, and the outside world.
This chance will only come about by pressure from within, not without, and it takes a few generations for this to happen. At the moment, most people in China are battling for their livelihood. Barring an actual civil uprising, people are too preoccupied to enact any change.
Then there's the growing middle class, which - in its infancy, as we've seen in our own experience - begins to concentrate far too much on wealth creation to risk rocking their boats now filled with commodity items. It will be a couple of generations before the middle class becomes relaxed enough to think outside their boxes.
Unfortunately, in general, as long as China is managed in such a heavy-handed way, people will be too scared - or too complicit - to demand anything change, not until the middle class becomes more powerful and - most importantly - more confident. I think that time is still quite far away. A boom time is no time for revolutions.
This is in itself an over-simplification. Eastern provinces couldn't survive without the West, the factories and the construction boom are pretty much 100% based on a constant influx of rural poor from Western China.
Anyway, there's already a system in place of people from the west not having a hukou/local citizenship, and essentially being foreign workers without rights. If they became separate and independent, the system would barely have to change.
Chen Shui-bian was caught, forced out of office, and is facing criminal charges. I think that is a very suitable outcome, and I'm sure you know everyone involved in the PRC government is corrupt and taking bribes, from top to bottom, it's common knowledge - the fact that they generally don't get punished for it does not mean that the government is any less corrupt.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
The "other side" somehow conveniently forgets that in the 1950 it invaded Tibet, a sovereign nation. Fencing with the opinion of a bunch of kids doesn't make it right. Tibet was invaded and now the Chinese want to modernise it; what exactly is the other side to that story?
[citation needed]
> Taiwan asserts ownership over all of mainland China (actually this view varies depending on which political party gets elected)
That's 30 years outdated. There's two major political party in Taiwan, out of the two, DPP supports the independence of Taiwan ( but doesn't claim the ownership of mainland China ).
Some politicians wanted Taiwan to be in UN, but almost everyone knows that it's impossible.
> Taiwan with its democracy is more corrupt than the CCP, just look at Chen Shui-bian.
In 2004, the day before the presidential election, Chen Shui-bian got shoot (it hit his ankle). Rumors says that it's his own arrangement to shoot himself, in order to win the election, and he did.
Many in Taiwan agrees that he's corrupting the government, as the economy isn't going well since the year (2000) he's elected.
> look at how Taiwans native tribes were treated by the Taiwanese Hans who took over.
In national wide university admission examination ( something like SAT/ACT ), they get 30% extra bonus. Therefore, that's say that I need 450 points out of 500 in order to get into the best university in Taiwan ( National Taiwan University ), they only need 350 points out of 500 points. I would say they are quite well-treated nowadays.
I can't agree with U more. The westerners regard themselves as fighters while in fact they're doing sth as crusaders having done:oblige others to accept their views which in fact is sth far from legitimacy.
I concur...I do not know what the situation is like. However, when a government you have no power to choose deems itself the Decider to what you can and cannot see, can and cannot listen and can and cannot think...I say that that's crossing a somewhat critical line.
Imagine in the west, the US government censoring anti-Iraq war websites or anti-Bush websites just because they go against the govt's rule.
Let's take it one step further here. In China, if you do not follow the government's decided religion as outlined in the Communist Party's Bulebook, you are an enemy of the state. Falun Gong, Baptism, and everything else under the sun that the PRC does not approve of...(which just happens to include Buddhism...)
Do I live there? no. Do I pretend to understand the hardships that the people there live under? Absolutely not...Do I understand that their government may be one of the most oppresive entities known to the world? The only reason that China is not another target on the US's list of "Must Force Democracy down their throats' list is because China could spank them back to the Dark Age.
We went after Germany because of what they did to the jews and observers of the Jewish faith...why can't we do the same for those poor monks with what China is doing?
So Jesus, Mohammed and Abraham walk into a Bar....
U R quite right,but it's easier to say. EG:If U hear someone claiming visited your motherland "many times" tells others that it's a barbarian 's land for he saw people there eating with their hands What would you think?
All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
What a moronic point of view you have. "If you have never lived in China don't comment" is not an argument - just plain arrogance. I would be less inclined to read the comments and opinions of a Jingoist Chinese National on the subject of Tibet and take his or her opinions with low regard based on their having lived in China than the opinions of anyone else. My opinion is that China is still the Sick Man of Asia who bullies and intimidates occupied peoples and is so insecure that they feel they will collapse if they give Tibetians or others the dignity and independence they deserve. Not the sign of a strong country at all. The sign of a weak, morally bankrupt Government and nation. I was already personally going to boycott the Olympics and would suggest everyone do the same. China out of Tibet.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
Well, Americans aren't exactly using Red and Blue incorrectly. We have consistantly labelled communists as "reds" just like in Europe. However, both American political parties have chosen to use colors from the American flag, and white just doesn't really work as well as red and blue. Words have different meanings in different places. We manage to figure it out, so deal with it.
I would tell him he was wrong and proceed to explain why his lack of perspective on the differences between culture caused him to have such a skewed view of the other country. Then I would proceed to compare and contrast the cultures, showing the positives and negatives of both, but I wouldn't tell him to shut up.
By the way, I actually live in China, and this is not the first time I've seen a Chinese user tell others directly to not comment on something "they don't know anything about". This poster is obviously in support of the Chinese mainland, but the funny thing is the last poster who responded like this was actually against the mainland's policies. There you have it.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
That'd be complicated in the Tibetan situation, since a lot of those people who live in Tibet and don't want independence would be recent Han transplants. It'd be (to choose as non-offensive a comparison as I can make) sort of like holding a plebiscite in Kansas while that territory was applying for Statehood -- if you were to have done so and counted both the White votes and the Native American ones, you would have gotten very different results than if you counted only the Native American votes.
Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
THAT comment oughta guarantee slashdot being blocked. :D
Nicely played, Sir. Nicely played.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel. -
Well, I might be crazy to spend an hour to read through all comments during work time. I was amazed by the fact that 95% of the people who posted comments only knew China, Tibet, and their relations from your own propagandas. Here are a few questions you may want to ask yourself for answers, I suppose slashdotters are not as stupid as diggers: 1. Many westerners automatically picture a peace loving individuals when heard the word 'monk'. There are many types of monks, and the Yellow Hat monks are everything but peace loving. They OWN the entire Tibetan populations as their own property. They can kill a Tibetan just like you can break your Ikea table, nothing less, nothing more. Panchen Lama and Dalai Lama, the two 'living gods' of Tibet, were the world's biggest slave owners before Dalia fled Tibet and Panchen gave in 2. Even the international law experts who hold the most sympathy on Tibet have problems finding evidence that Tibet was ever an indepedent country. Since Ming dynastry, China started ruling of Tibet, and the establishment of Living Gods required approval of the central government. China did not intervene much of its internal administrations, but took over its defence and diplomat activities 3. When Muslims target their violence to civilians, you call those terrorists, when Tibetans kill Han civilians, you called that fight for freedom?
First, its all the hacking into our government and
Wait, you don't think that our government is trying to break into every military computer system in China? That the Chinese are engaging in spying on the US, and that we don't employ spies outselves? Interesting...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Just use a vpn service like Surfbouncer and it zips right through. They can't block the vpn without blocking business transactions. They won't do that because at the end of the day money talks. http://www.surfbouncer.com/
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
We can still search youtube for Tibet videos, but when we try to view a youtube video, we get the following message: "This video is not available in your country." This means that it is youtube that is doing the blocking, not the Chinese government (we have access to all sorts of other "subversive" material including Tibet videos from other sources. This is a highly disturbing development of youtube blocking videos in a place with normally free press--and then blaming the Chinese government for filtering.