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Student Faces 38 Years In Prison For Hacking Grades
the brown guy writes "An 18-year-old high school student named Omar Kahn is charged with 69 felonies for hacking into a school computer and modifying his grades, among other things. He changed his C, D and F grades to As, and changed 12 other students grades as well. By installing a remote access program on the school's server, Kahn was able to also change his AP scores and distribute test answer keys, and could be looking at a lengthy prison term. Not surprisingly, his parents (who have only recently immigrated to America) have decided not to post the $50,000 bail and Kahn is in jail awaiting trial."
He got caught - unlike me, because I didn't brag about it on a public web site...
Even being a security researcher I might find some of those tasks non-trivial. In highschool I'm pretty sure that kind of action was out of my league. He has certainly learned something.
Here is the list of charges against Khan
34 felony counts of altering public record
11 felony counts of stealing and secreting public records
7 felony counts of illegal computer access and fraud
6 felony counts of burglary
4 felony counts of identity theft
3 felony counts of altering book of records
2 felony counts of receiving stolen property
1 felony count of conspiracy
1 felony count of attempting altering of a public record
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Summary is unnecessarily sensational.
I'm willing to bet the 38 years is if he gets convicted for all the charges, and doesn't get any concurrent sentencing - very unlikely.
Beetle B.
It's amazing how they can turn a talented, although with obvious problems kid, into an outwright criminal. He is 18, for God's sake!!
Sure the kid is an idiot, but does he deserve 38 years? That's insane.
Kick him out of school. Hold him back a year. Put him to work in community service.
People who think he deserves 38 years in prison for being a teenage idiot probably deserve to be in prison themselves.
"You know, a D turns into a B so easily. You just got greedy."
Just wait until they find out what he has done to WOPR.
My humor is probably your flamebait
its not Kahn (repeated several times in post) but Khan
They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me. -Nathaniel Lee
Surely a combination of barring him from ever entering an academic instution again, access to computers, heavy community service, etc etc would be more of an effective punishment then the state feeding, clothing and sheltering this guy for 38 years. I'm not being soft on the guy but it seems like if he had commited a violent crime he would have been looking at less time.
Forget the post being sensationalist, what about the legal system? What kind of legal system (or university or whoever is bringing the prosecution) pushes for 40 years for this kind of thing? Clearly not one that expects to do any public good...
-1 not first post
My school server (NetWare) is just as bad. Posted anonymously for obvious reasons.
:)", freaked a lot of people out).
First off, desktops are fairly locked down. But the server itself allows for RDP connections with any username (not just teachers or students).
When you're on any old desktop, you can only access your own network share as a virtual drive. When you're connected to the school server, you get:
-Any documents (class of 2006 or 2007, class of 2008-2011, teachers, ADMINS)
-Network shares with installer sources and keys in text files (e.x. Microsoft Office 2007 Pro Plus with VLK, Dragon NaturallySpeaking 9, EasyGrade Pro 3, Houghton Mifflin Test Generator to accompany textbooks, etc.)
-Access to the attendance share (which is outsourced, but the administrative login is kept on said server in house)
-Access to backups from the other schools (junior high, intermediate, elementary)
I was appalled when I found this out. For ethical reasons (and the legal penalties), I decided not to tell anyone or anything. Mainly because in 8th grade, my friend got his computer privileges suspended for the year when we told the computer staff that you could get a command prompt through Internet Explorer, and he almost got a disciplinary record over it.
We tried to help them, and he got in trouble (luckily, no legal issues).(We'd send NET SEND messages to other computers - e.g. "Jane, this is the computer. That's a nice purple sweater you're wearing
Ever since, whenever I've found a computer issue, I've kept my mouth shut, because it's not worth the trouble.
More on topic...this guy has what's coming to him. I think 38 years is too harsh (maybe a couple of years and more punishment in probation), but his malicious intent and clear intent makes me have no sympathy for him.
We USians in a society that threatens to throw its students in jail for 40 years for changing grades.
If your a young person. Consider moving to Canada.
...priorities have changed. We see our government running rough-shod over the laws it holds us to, and we think, why must I follow these laws too? If the gov't can remove freedoms, liberties and rights in the name of 'homeland security' why can't I too bend/break the rules in the name of 'financial security' for my family?
Blar.
While I feel a certain amount of pity for anyone who has to spend time in prison, I think what he did was really unwise. What he did probably shows a certain skill and adeptness that could be useful, but he could have shown that without actually messing with the data and improving his own scores. By doing the latter, he has firmly crossed the line into malice. You just don't do that.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Who is supporting him? No one is saying he did a good thing, they are just saying 38 years is pretty insane for changing some grades. You can get less time for killing someone. Or maybe even two someones.
I don't know what so unsurprising about that. No parent wants their kid to spend time in freakin' lockup. Further, they can leverage $5,000 of real dollars with a bail bondsman to post $50k, so they just need to sell the kid's computer and scrape together a few thousand more to spare him potentially weeks behind bars.
Heck, banks will loan the money for bail, and I seriously doubt they get the loan-shark like interest the bail bondsman would.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I would hope he learned that he either shouldn't be doing it, or shouldn't get caught, otherwise he can should probably learn to get used to being in jail.
Is at Gizmodo
The kid is also facing burglary charges because he stole a key to the school and used it to break in several times. The first thing to remember in this case is that it's not just a simple computer crime case, and that 12 other students also had their grades changed.
Further, of course the kid faces 38 years; every one of the small crimes he committed carry a maximum penalty. If you add them all up, you get 38 years. Obviously that doesn't mean that the kid is going to serve anywhere near that amount.
Now, I'm not sitting here saying that this kid should get 38 years. Far from it. But I do think that some jail time is called for. In addition to the burglary charge and the financial hit to fix the problems he caused, he hurt a lot of students. Consider this: For every one of the 13 kids who moved into the top 10% ranking, someone who had earned their spot had to leave. That student may not have been able to get into the college of his or her choice, and - far more importantly - may have missed out on substantial scholarship money. This kid wasn't just harming his high school through the added expense to audit records and security policies, he was hurting totally innocent fellow students.
Because he gives a good example (his friend's computer privileges) of how a paranoid system deters white hat hackers, so the field is left to the real criminals.
Did you notice how reports about benevolent hackers have become rare over the last years, while computer criminality flourishes?
C - the footgun of programming languages
KHAAANNNN!
[echo]
KHAAANNNN!
Don't do the crime if you can't to the time.
I doubt they will give him 38 years probably a couple year and get out in half of that. So he'll get a good lesson out.
Guys like this should be sentenced to public service instead, for example to working for free as an assistant computer teacher for a year, under monitorship from the authorities. That'd turn his obvious competence into something useful, as well as being a net benefit to the society economically.
Fuck AT&T. It is not a person, it is a company and as such deserves no sympathy. They shouldn't have broken the law because the "authorities" told them they can.
That's 38 years under tax payer care. Honestly I say find a way to put him to work with the talent he has so he's not as much a burden and keep him under heavy watch as he does the work.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
I mean...what the kid did was dumb, granted. But should his ENTIRE life really be completely ruined because he tried to cheat and boost his test scores in fucking high school? Seriously? There are rapists that face less jail time. Murderers who face less jail time. Corrupt politicians who start wars with other nations, unprovoked...that face no jail time. And you're going to hop on the "he's getting what he deserves" bandwagon? Shit, I *DO* support that kid. And yes, he's just a kid. A dumb, arrogant kid that made a stupid mistake. But in the end, no ones been harmed except himself. Expell him from school. Make him repeat the 12th grade. Let him stand on his own two at a community college until he can prove that he's ready for a 4 year program. I just don't think this is worth destroying a life over......
``I'm sure you want to see this guy prosecuted too, right?''
Yes.
<whining snipped>
Anything else?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
How 'they' turned him into a criminal? He broke the law. Probably several laws. He is 18. By that age people should know right from wrong. Is it worth 38 years? Not even close. In fact I'd be in favor of probation rather than a jail sentence. However, 'they' didn't turn him into a criminal. He did.
And this is where? North Korea?
0x or or snor perron?!
Ok, so the kid is a greedy one, changing all of his grades to As ;)
But he is also not very socially bright, think about the other 12 kids for whome he changed the grades, someone was bound to talk. Or maybe a parent saw a dramatic grade change and called a teacher for whatever reason etc.
You just don't include 12 more people into your 'crime'. It's not a secret anymore after that.
Still, 38 years is just nuts. Make him pass the highschool exams again, put him into community service (with the other 12 kids by the way.) Also fine him for a few thousand bucks for the trouble and that should be that. His parents will take care of the rest of the punishment, I am certain.
Anyway, Khaaaaaaan! I suppose.
You can't handle the truth.
Can you really 'steal' your own exam paper, beyond cheating of course, which is as yet not a criminal offence. There is of course hacking into a computer network, not real hacking of course as it was done via an obtained user name and password which has been blown out into some sort of identity theft, a some what exaggerated postulation.
So it really all boils down to how good a lawyer he can afford and how anal the prosecutor is in seeking a publicity generating penalty.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
First of all, I strongly doubt that these companies felt that they were "helping out after 9/11." This companies were told, by the NSA, that the government had an interest in installing secret equipment in switching stations, and rather than stand their ground, they allowed wiretapping equipment to be installed. Second of all, this kid did not commit a wiretapping offense, he tampered with public records (assuming he went to a public school), and he hijacked some else' equipment. The punishment does not fit the crime in the either case.
Palm trees and 8
Run by state and local organizations, funded (for the non-coastal states) by redistribution of Federal Income Taxes...and the requirements that come with receipt of those funds.
I'd say the school represents the government on all levels!
Blar.
I'm at a loss for words. His misguided juvenile shenanigans could net him a longer sentence than rapists, murderers, pimps, drug dealers, etc. When I was a kid they would've hauled me into the office, given me a stern lecture, and encouraged me to use my skills in a productive & positive way.
This sort of outrageous over-reaction & immoral litigiousness only results in disdain for the legal system, law, and public institutions.
Here is an illustration of what I meant in my earlier comment. Instead of having a law that specifies precisely what punishment corresponds to a common and unremarkable crime we have on one hand ridiculous pileup of multiple charges for the same actions, and on the other hand, without any doubt, attorney claiming that it's all total bullshit, parole slashing prison terms to nearly nothing, etc. Let the shouting match begin, and expect a completely random result that has nothing to do with severity of the crime, deterrence, common sense and least of all -- justice.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
For the juvenile hacker, maybe community service plus a few months prison on probation.
In case of the telecoms, it is important that lawbreaking is not legalized by the mere say-so of the government. Because this would seriously undermine all laws that are designed to protect the citizens from government harassment.
The "helping in good faith" should count as mitigating circumstance, but not get them completely off the hook. Let's say fines for those reponsible, plus also a few months prison on probation.
C - the footgun of programming languages
This is one of the comments on the newspaper story:
He's NOT a hacker!
Jun 19, 2008 08:21
He's just lazy and stupid.
First off, this idiot goes to the same high-school as me - Tesoro High School. The guy is a total loser who just wastes his time trying to act cool and trying to "party it up" cause his family is relatively well off.
The "38 years in prison" is just a tagline. He *faces* that much time in prison because of the 69 seperate counts of felony charges, but he'll probably get a fine and probation and that's about it. (Well, that and getting blacklisted from the major schools that he had no shot of getting into.)
Secondly, since when has installing a keylogger program on a computer been considered hacking? In which case, we're all "hackers" cause we installed software on our PC. He doesn't know the first thing about programming. He asked me to fix his spyware infested computer on repeated occasions. The guy would get others to do his work for him and pay them off. He even asked people to take the SATs for him! jeez!
Lastly, he's a lazy idiot. He got caught AFTER he was denied admission to the UCs (yes, he still got rejected with his modified transcripts), when he tried to appeal the decision and have more transcripts sent out - that's when the counselor noticed the discrepency. If he had taken the time to study for the SATs instead, he'd be in by now, even with his terrible GPA.
What a ridiculous world we live in.
Amit
incoming government rays... put on your tin foil hat... must*not*get*along*with*rest*of*the*world!!!!
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Listen, kid, I went through college the old, honest way. I never cheated, unlike you, and of course my GPA wasn't that great, as a result. There were plenty of times where I could have cheated and I know that others did. It's simply very easy when they give take home tests and finals for groups of people to work on the same thing. They never got called on the carpet and I stayed very well away from anything that looked like that. (This is probably my main beef with engineers, btw.)
But I graduated with my integrity intact. Which is obviously a metric ton more than you'll ever be able to say.
So you got caught for doing a more high tech version of what I avoided all through college. 38 years might look like a lot, but considering what you came within arms reach of doing, it ought to be 80.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
I can't help but think to agree with some of the others here. He changed a few grades, big deal. How many cases have there been of teachers changing grades for students who provide them "special" favors? How many cases of misrepresented grades have gone through the public school system?
The reality is, the kid probably did it because he was bored in school. This most certainly was the reason why I played around on my school's network back in the day. When you're an IT nerd in high school studying how firewalls work on your own time, and you're shoved into a class full of people who don't know the difference between Windows 95 and Windows 98 and can't type even 1/4th the speed you can--there are glaring flaws to be seen in this system.
While what the kid did may be technically seen as "wrong", 38 years is a bit much. The school should look at programs to challenge students like this one, which may include smaller classrooms, more advanced materials to study, or even individualized instruction.
Then they could have kept him out of their network.
Correct me if I'm wrong, which is entirely possible, but doesn't Collegeboard, not the local school, take care of AP scores?
Well, as stated the 38 years is the maximum he can get, much like how the maximum for murder is generally life or execution.
This sort of stuff tends to happen when you commit two dozen or so different felonies, each with a maximum sentence of up to a couple years. It only applies if he's found guilty on every count and the judge/jury assigns the maximum penalty for every crime. They don't normally do this, saving 'throwing the book' for worse cases than this.
I figure he'll end up with 5-10 years and a hefty parole period after.
I don't read AC A human right
38 years for this? /facepalm
ok well i thought Usa was a civilised country, sorry for being so naive.
Your argument is so compelling you had to post it anonymously and call names. I so I wish I were as smart as you. Why do Slashdotters have to always be so snotty with people who disagree with them? Keep on validating those no-social-skills IT stereotypes.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
1 day your hacking grades the next day NORAD just to play a game.
That's the higher end of the punishment-scale for committing obscenity laws in other countries: so everything evens out, no worries there mate.
damaged by dogma
Make him and the other 12 students retake the exams, and unless they all get A's give them jail time. If they do get A's, then a bit of community service will do.
And thats why he is facing 37 years more gaol (jail) than he may have otherwise. Smart is if he changes his own grades and said nothing, Smart Ass is if he changes other peoples grades, therefore he is facing 37 years gaol for being a smart ass.
The moral of the story: No one likes a smart ass.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I bet if he had instead changed some everyone's grades to "D-E-A-D-B-E-E-F" the judge would have just lold and put a "1337 Pwnage" into his permanent record instead.
yesterday, congress declared 'if the president says its ok, its lawful'. they also said that the government can break into your phoneline (tap it) and network connection and even though they ADMIT it was a crime, they give 'forgiveness' to the other party that committed the crime (the telcos and isps).
the president and the telcos get off scott-free. major crimes were done by my government by breaking into systems that belong to business (the telcos). I do submit that they broke in as they already have 'black box' rooms and don't really NEED 'permission' to tap, not really, not in the technical sense.
there seems to be no punishment and yet the loss is real and measurable (the loss of the notion of personal privacy; we just lost
that, folks, in case you didn't realize it).
but this kid broke into a SCHOOL system's computer and 'changed grades'. OH BOY - SEND THE ARMY, NAVY, MARINES!! sheesh.
put it into perspective. who did the more damage?
this kid should be punished, but proportionately.
(I'll not say what I think should happen to those other guys I mentioned. use your imagination.)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
This kid was probably very bored in school (much like I was) and I think we can all remember how "locked down" those stupid high school computer networks are. Sometimes, the more you lock something down, the more the end user wants to get around road blocks. To bad they couldn't have used this kids skills to find vulnerabilities in the network or make something positive out of his knowledge.
"During My Service In The United States Congress, I Took The Initiative In Creating The Internet." -Al Gore
Okay, let me try to parse this one out.
and who are all such sticklers for prosecuting lawbreakers, I'm sure you want to see this guy prosecuted too, right? Yes. but it is inconsistent to claim you are all so concerned about the law being followed when it is a corporation trying to help out after 9/11 When you say "help out" I assume you mean that time the telcos let the government illegally strip-mine all of our conversations with no judicial oversight whatsoever, just because someone in the intel service said "no, no, it's cool. You're fighting terrorists."Or did AT&T help a kitten out of a tree or something?
but when it is some hacker who is a lot more like you nerds than AT&T happens to be, will you be consistent? I don't even know what that's suppsed to mean. After all, who else's grades did he snoop into? Twelve of his friends. Did you even read the article? For the record, I think it is grossly excessive, and sad that young people can get 25+ years for doing things similar to what I did in high school when most of it wasn't illegal then. Breaking and entering, burglary, and falsification of public records wasn't illegal when you were in school? I am for telecom immunity for companies that tried to help after 9/11 in good faith, and relied on the government's assurances that they would not face legal sanction. I'm sure you are. I'd imagine that this hacker got no such assurances from authorities before he broke in! He's not a hacker. He's a common criminal and burglar who managed to see someone's password. Don't make him out to be anything else.While I don't condone his crimes, I will say (as someone who only recently finished his term in one of the state-run loony bins they call high schools) that there is precious little knowledge in the "studying" for anything high-school related.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
He hasn't been tried yet. 38 years is the total of maximum sentences for each occurence of each charge. Why don't we wait until the trial has been held before we start to obsess about the excesses of the justice system. Then we can legitimately decry the outcome, either way.
Invenio via vel creo
Hell if he has m4d 5k1775 they should put him to work instead.DARPA are having a wee shortage, so i'm told.
War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, the lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade.- Shelley
The difference between those two sets of crimes is that one of them was of national scope and involves constitutional law.
Also, your argument is flawed: few here are arguing that this kid should not be punished. Most people seem to agree with you that the severity of the punishment is excessive. Also, it has been recognized that the kid probably won't serve anywhere near that amount of time, if he serves any time at all.
On the subject of the wiretapping, I hold that there is no "good faith" involved. Every citizen should know what's in the Bill of Rights. That a wiretapping program without judicial oversight is illegal is obvious---damn near self-evident. "Trying to help out" my ass. Even if you are so misguided as to believe that the government has any right to spy on its citizens, rest assured that the telecoms corporations were not so deluded. The only legal argument they have to stand on is the Nuremberg Defense.
Question: If you support telecom immunity, do you then also support the public trial and criminal conviction of the elected and appointed officials responsible for the illegal actions?
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
"Rape, murder, arson and rape."
"You said rape twice."
"I like rape."
My mom says I'm cool.
This kid isn't a genius. He's not talented. He isn't some sort of super child that did this because he was bored in school. He's a stupid script kiddie. He downloaded a keylogger from the internet then broke into the school office and installed it. What a computer wiz. The kid's a douche and this sentence probably just saves the court some time down the road. And he won't even get 38 years anyway so quit whining about how long that is.
He is facing "up to" 38 years. That means that if you take all of the charges against him, and he gets the max prison term for all of them, he will be in jail for 38 years. The chances of that happening are zero. What is going to happen is that if the evidence against him is good enough where he (his lawyers) think that he can't win, he will just make a plea deal with the prosecutors. If he serves any time after pleading guilty and making a plea deal, it will likely be under a year. In all likelihood he will just get put on probation for a few years. Probation sucks, but it beats prison... and well, it is supposed to suck. It is a punishment, and punishments tend to suck.
Then he'd be on parole or even jailed for two years. Much better to serve five for messing with an insecure computer system.
I think some of you are misunderstanding how the legal system works. He faces 38 years in prison. Thats a maximum, just like you can face a maximum of 6 months in jail for rather meager crimes that you typically just pay a fine for. Most likely the judge will sentence him to just a couple of years and if the kid is good he'll get out in a matter of months at his parole hearing. He might also get one of those screwball "Can't use the Internet" sentencing or such in exchange for reduced time. He's 18 years old, but in this case they'll still treat him like he's a kid.
Jesus fucking christ people, why is it whenever a story like this comes out everyone jumps on the statutory MAXIMUMS. The kid committed *69* felony counts and it is possible, though highly unlikely, that the MAXIMUM jail time he could face for ALL these charges is 38 years. If you think hackers should face NO penalties for their actions then grow a pair, step on the sop box and say so but don't keep harping on statutory MAXIMUMS as if they are evil incarnate that you must rid the world of.
Think about the criminal mentality here... looking over someone's shoulder vs hacking into the teacher's computer... They are both means to the same end, and are both opportunities taken with similar intent. If we are to punish "evil" then these two are equal. The only difference is one kid was more efficient at it, thought outside the box, had a bigger vision, and accomplished a bigger goal.
He got caught, sure, but maybe he needs practice? He gets an A in my book.
Btw this reminds me of a great Southpark episode. Ya, how about think about how we can we help these childred!?
Let's assume this kid didn't realize the gravity of his actions. He's 18, after all. As a society, we can take someone with obvious talent, send them to a full year of constant psychiatric care and put him on parole for two years. Punish him by putting him on house arrest for six months without access to a computer.
The benefit for the perpetrator is that they get a real chance at not becoming part of the revolving door of our prison system. The benefit for society is you take someone on the wrong track, make him a productive member of society instead of another burden.
And if he violates the law while on parole, then you stick him in jail for a year. But don't give him more time that someone who commits violent acts. That's just fucking stupid.
But it's not censorship. We mods simply use the system in place to express our opinion that you are either a troll or making a redundant post, or something along those lines.
Your post is still on Slashdot servers and is still visible, unless someone chooses to browse at something above -1, which is the fault of that lone user.
Something rather similar happened at my school recently. A group of high achieving though bored students installed a key logger on an administrator's computer and obtained passwords. They raised some of their grades and read private emails, and were finally caught when attempting to break into school to retrieve the device. However, despite a great deal of publicity and multiple felony charges for some (not 69 though), none of them were actually jailed - though all were kicked out of school (including one who had already graduated and been accepted to college).
Please, have a little perspective. Do not blow this situation out of proportion. The two kids who did Columbine were "creeps"...this kid was impetuous, smart, and immature.
As others have said, he should be punished. Community service, a period of time w/o a computer, but whatever they do, don't put him in prison. And make sure he can clear his record in 3 or 5 years. Sounds like the perfect candidate for a 'first time offender program'
Thank you Dave Raggett
You learned that the government and/or school does not have proper forgery-detection policies in their process.
Since the only way to expose the flaws in such a process is to show how the process can harm innocent participants, this is simply a necessary evil.
Blar.
How does the cock of authority feel slithering down your willing throat?
Don't be a pussy, you need to work at retaining your rights and liberties. Too many people want to take them away from you for their own gain.
Blar.
Was this kid ever *taught* he was going to get 38 years if he hacked into the school's computers? Shouldn't they be teaching *that* at school? The parents should sue for improper education.
You can't assume kids know right from wrong. It must be taught. And what are schools for?
There is a difference between being naughty and social suicide. He knows now, but this could have been prevented!
Of what happens when the law becomes a religion. People don't even stop to take a look at the reasons why they'd be willing to lock someone up for 38 years. The law says it's wrong therefore no thought is necessary when doling out the punishment.
It's time this country took a good hard look at the three branches of government and started weeding out the garbage that does not work. Unfortunately it's too late for so many, but there is still time enough for many more.
You're nothing; like me.
Jail time sounds about right, but not more than a year and provided he gets to continue study inside.
Kahn is Hebrew and is a name most often possessed by Jews. Khan is of mixed origin and is most commonly seen in Indians. Some of those people could accurately be described as brown skinned, but neither Israel nor India is widely known for terrorism, whatever you personally may think about the policies of those countries.
Also, he hasn't been sentenced yet. Legal proceedings have barely begun, as far as I can tell.
This space reserved for administrative use.
He stole a key and broke into the school after hours. First time, was to install a keylogger. Second time was to use the password he stole to log in as an administrator so he could access the mark system. Which of those two things required any smarts at all. Did he write the keylogger? No, he bought it. Did he hack the marking system? No, he had the password and it was easy to use. He got busted not because of the other students, but because he changed his AP marks. But those marks are sent TO the school, not FROM the school. So his transcript didn't match. You know, when the college of his dreams called his school to ask why this kid with straight A's flunked his AP tests, and the highschool said "Huh? He got 100% on his AP tests..."
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
We look at the crime, but not at the intention behind it. If we did, the same punishment should be meted out for someone who is caught cheating on his tests. The intended result is the same: Getting a grade he didn't earn the "legal" way.
Why is hacking a computer to fudge the grade worse than using cheat sheets? Why isn't anyone who cribbed his doctor thesis facing 40ish years in prison (which is, IMO, a worse offense than cheating with your grades, we're talking about a thesis that allows you to bear a title, which does hold a lot of meaning in some countries)?
Look at the crime, not at the way it was committed.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Despite the hype he is NOT facing 38 years in prison. 38 years is just the number you get if you add up the sentences for each of the crimes. (And who's fault is it that the prosecutors have that many crimes to add up?).
If he is found guilty of all those crimes he will serve CONCURRENT sentences for them. SO if he was up for 38 felonies which each had a 1 year sentence he would serve all those 38 years with just one actual year in prison. That's not exactly how it works out of course. He's up for 69 felonies and some of the felonies have longer sentences than the others, so the practical result is he'll serve time for the single most serious crime he committed. If it goes to trial he's not even likely to face all those charges, the prosecutors will focus on the handful of most serious and easiest to prove charges and drop the others if only to avoid muddying the waters at trial.
CONSECUTIVE sentencing is theoretically possible, it's mandated for some serious crimes (not the case here) and can be imposed by the judge at his discretion given the gravity and circumstances of the crime. Spectacularly unlikely here, and probably overturned by a more sane appeals court if it was imposed.
AT WORST I suppose if the judge felt that the resulting concurrent sentence wasn't long enough he could tack on one of the sentences as a consecutive sentence at the end. So say the kid gets the maximum 3 years for 2nd degree burglary as the longest of his concurrent sentences but the judge decides that's too lenient so he makes the identity theft sentence to run consecutively to add another 18 months. Even this type of scenario doesn't seem very likely, it's just as likely the judge decides he's basically a good kid, a good candidate for rehabilitation and mitigates his sentence so he only serves time on one of the lesser charges.
I knew that Stephen Hawking was a phony hacker all along!
Parents, teachers... not enough info to say whom, but someone failed him...
We shouldn't be asking whether 38 years is too long, too harsh OR even if what he did is a crime... we should be asking WHY this kid felt the need to do this.
I suspect that he felt cheated. He's probably pretty intelligent and yet for whatever reason (lack of english skills, poor home environment... maybe just the fact that he recently immigrated and there are just so many extra obstacles in his way) he was not able to make good grades.
It sounds like he needed a tutor or some additional after school instruction but his parents were too proud to request it (or he was too proud to accept it) and as a consequence he didn't have enough quality time to devote to his studies.
Just as likely he was used to doing this in whatever country he came from and did not believe he would be caught, so didn't spend any time studying as he planned to simply change the grades later, like he did the other 3 years before moving to the US.
Really the whole story is just sad.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
If you want to play games, wouldn't that be Norad II and Norad III?
I'd love to see the list of the 69 felonies he violated... because I'm sure more than half of them are repeats of another one. He deserves some type of prison sentence in my opinion... just not 30+ years. It's not like he killed anyone.
"Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher
My mother teaches in a high school, and was talking about their new online grading system. She has to submit grades via the web service, and students are able to log in to the same web interface to read their grades. I asked my mother if the school kept other documentation of student grades (for example, if she had to turn in a grade book at the end of the year so that the university could compare the online version to her paper version). The answer was no. The high school relies completely on the online system for determining grades. This is accessible via the internet. The software is called Genesis Passport. Not a lot of information is available about it online, but I have to wonder if the thing could possibly be secure. I kind of doubt it, but what do I know, I'm only a professional security researcher and pen-tester...
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
Question: What would the penalty be if this was not a computer crime? Suppose he broke into the school's office and changed the grades records for several students?
One count of breaking and entering, and 34 counts of altering a public record? Would these even be federal crimes?
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
Khan's a regular Bart Simpson. Lucky for his parents his problems are easily solved. Somebody should tell his father to allow his son to kiss his face more. Or better yet, wipe the dad's face with something absorbent of the face grease paternal pheromone like chewing gum, and then let Khan chew the gum. About 150 mg p.o. will do the trick. 38 years? For a pheromone deficiency so easily remedied? I think not. A slap on the backside to stimulate lacrimation (with attendant pheromone receptor proteins dissolved in the tears) and a tiny squirt of the pheromone and the kid will be good as new. Don't buy this scenario? Go to Pub Med search Nicholson AND pheromone.
Warning: I am NOT a lawyer. I am just a self defense advocate and gun collector who has read multiple state laws on self defense and firearm laws.
It really depends on your state and jurisdiction, even in the USA.
It varies. Today, many states have an automatic 'fear for life/SBH' for an intruder in your house. In Texas, during hours of darkness, felony theft on your property may be responded to by deadly force. If they're in your house, you may respond with deadly force at any time.
This is varied a bit in that some liberal cities within the state don't like that, and aren't particularly caring if they follow the law - you get a fair number of self defense cases that they'll push all the way to court, even knowing it doesn't have a snowball's chance. Heck, look back at texas and the incidents in one county where the police entered bars and arrested patrons for public drunkeness. No fights, no noise complaints. Premeditated raid to do this. Their stated goal was to reduce drunk driving - yet they arrested even people who had rooms in the attached hotel.
Thus, I figure anything but the most blatant act of self defense will cost over $30k, possibly quite a bit more.
In my town - somebody breaks in and I shoot them. Likely result: A pat on the back.
Texas rural - same deal
Texas, Dallas - some runaround.
Lincoln or Omaha, NE - probably a few days in jail until they find that they don't have any real evidence that it wasn't self defense.
In Chicago or DC - murder and wrongful death charges, showy trial leading to aquital. After tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of lawyers bills. Or they'll drop charges after holding me in jail for six months without bail.
Now, don't get me wrong. I am a serious advocate of self defense, concealed carry, and all. By the same token - taking a human life is serious. Therefore I don't mind if somebody who has to drop the hammer on an intruder is arrested. What I DO want is a thorough investigation followed by a quick release when it's determined to be self defense.
I don't read AC A human right
A man got a prison sentence of 10 years for planned murder.
Yes, I know, different cultures, different system, but something somewhere is horribly broken (No, I'm not talking about the School's network setup ).
Yeah, thank god somebody finally did it. OH WAIT, it's been done already, many times
Sadly, there are people out there who have gotten away with changing grades and they're probably patting themselves on the back for their more subtle and successful efforts. When I was in HS, our school was VERY competitive, one of the top schools in CA. Full of nerds, literally. AP test? The question wasn't passing, it was whether you can get a 4 vs a 5. Anyway, the funny thing is..........A LOT of people cheated. Sure, maybe they didn't alter grades (though they would have tried if they could) they cheated in every which way possible from stealing answer keys from the school to hiding textbooks in the bathroom for "emergency studying" during "bathroom breaks" and hiring people for taking SATs. It was a joke. I'm serious. The saying went "the smart cheated because they are smart enough to figure out how." Sad.
KAAAAAAAAHN!
He really did 38 years worth of damage to society by hacking a high school? Really? Whom did he hurt?
+++ATH0
By giving himself all A's, he effectively stole all the hard earned hours of study from those who honestly earned it. Just like stealing money. He will also steal chances that other students might have of getting into their choice of university.
He could have ruined the future lives of many other students. What if you didn't get into a good college because of grade inflation, etc. Then don't get into med school - that can be a serious loss.
If you break into someones house and get caught then no one is hurt, or if you shoot at someone, and miss no one is hurt either.
38 years is harsh, maybe the kid should spend 4 years in jail, to offset the years other kids spent studying their books.
..........FULL STOP.
Whats with the overreaction tag? It's not an overreaction.
When I was in high school, I was in Honors classes, and earned my A's and B's. Many, many students were in the same classes and couldn't fuckin' hack it and cheated their way to ahead of me in class.
Get caught trying to make yourself look better than you are, and you get to sit in jail. In principle, you're stealing my future from me by cheating when I'm honest. You being 30 spots higher than me in the class lineup might mean you make $500,000 more than me in your lifetime. That's grand theft, and that's a felony. Deal with it.
It is inevitable in a system of forced public education - where you're required not only to take courses outside your interest, but to do well in those courses - that some geniuses will have their permanent records ruined as a result, to the point where they have no hope of getting a job in the area of their interest.
Of course, by trying to work around the system, he has made it worse for himself...
I demand to know why this story isn't tagged "ninetimes"!
Submission wrongly spells his name. His name is Khan and not Kahn.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Laws are laws. They were written for a reason and now if has broken those laws he should be punished by those laws. Don't use "kids will be kids" arguments here, as they undermine the value of rule of law. What the hell are you teaching kids when they do something wrong that we say " oh oh well we'll give you a freebe on this one cause your young and smart and that's cute". The laws should be written in such a way that the judge has some discretion in sentence if they are really minor things. And lots of first time offenders draw a "sentence" but serve probation instead and the whole mess gets expunged if they meet the requirements set by the court. More than likely this is not a "life ruining" experience.
Oh honey look... How cute... an angry slashdotter!
Seriously.
If this kid was actually handed a sentence of 38 years then this story would be absurd enough to be newsworthy. Kids screw up. One of our biggest mistakes is trying to prevent them from doing it and punishing the hell out of them if they do. This leads to a society full of pansies that let corporations and politicians do anything they want.
PM
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The criminals are the software engineers, Teachers and IT Administrators and school board members who are not adhering to proper security practices. Students are in school to learn, to be curious, to test the boundaries.
Hey, I am running for a seat in the US House of Representatives in Wisconsin's South East District:
http://www.josephwilliambaker.org/
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So it the kid was actually some form of misunderstood super-genious then it would be to name him with a shitload of charges and up to nearly two lifetime sentences worth of jail-time? No, he won't likely get it, but the will likely use the threat of a much bigger sentence to push him into accepting the plea-de-jour.
Does he deserve punishment, yes. Is it worth a perspective 38 years, no, and it sets a bad precedent if an overly hefty punishment is levied against him.
It seems to me that stacking "multiple counts" of a crime perhaps shouldn't apply to all cases. If he meddled with the same system multiple times, it seems to me that it should be one count of the same crime, versus if he did something like - say - crack (I used the term loosely for this script-kiddie) into several different systems. The counts concept works fine if you've got a rapist, murderer, etc, but not some kid who's exploiting the same crack in the same place over a given period.
This kid was a jackass and deserved to get nailed, but he doesn't deserve to have them dig up every possible angle against the same thing, and hit him from all sides with it. The same tactics can (and have been) used to railroad those that didn't deserve a given charge, but were pressured into taking a lesser (though also undeserved) plea in fear of getting hit with the bigger punch if things went to trial. For example, see this case up here in Canada. Facing horrendous charges VS a lesser plea can push even innocent people to cave in.
Or maybe I just went to a more tolerant Canadian school. But back then, we had all sorts of fun within the rather poorly secured network. Heck, we wrote some games that the other kids loved, and then stashed backdoors in them to deal with the guys that were stealing our lunch money. They never did figure out why their computers froze or rebooted halfway through an unsaved piece of work (although to be fair they did that on their own sometimes anyhow).
Nowadays it seems that I would probably have been hung out to dry for that sorta thing. Back then, my prof more or less know about it, and was content to warn us when things got too out of hand. Of course, I actually ended up working for that same school district sometime later, but at least IMHO the networks were a fair bit more secure then, but when kids did get into places they weren't supposed to we generally leaned towards warnings (and suspensions if it was serious) rather than prison terms. I think the prison system is busy enough with the murderers, rapists, burglars, and others.
The impression I'm getting is that he would've gotten away with it had he not asked the school for a transcript. As a rule of thumb, flunkies do not ask for transcripts. Brilliance does not offset hubris, and that is why I'm not at all bothered by the sheer scope of the charges brought against him.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
Video of his father's reaction to the charges: http://www.khaaan.com/
At the risk of sounding racist, I think his punishment should be deportation, if it is indeed true that his family just entered the country (couldn't find the source in the article). The parents can stay, but to hell with the kid.
The fact that he went to such great lengths to cheat his way through high school, and more importantly to pursue further education, makes me hate this person almost instantly. He's clearly not interested in working and learning, he just wants a degree so he can defraud his future employers. This does not evolve into an honest, respectable adult, and the damage caused by a lifetime of incompetence has far-reaching consequences affecting thousands of lives. He is yet another bad apple in this logjam we call modern society.
Why deportation ? Because he's too young for jail, and I don't think jail fixes anyone anyway. He now has a criminal record, which means he won't be able to get any decent jobs anyway. The funny thing about a criminal record, once you have one, there is less incentive to be good since a lifetime of flawless behavior won't erase the stain in your past, so you might as well break the rules and get rich doing it. He came here, presumably to pursue a more successful life, tried to shaft us, and got caught. Fail. No better life for you. Do not pass go.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
My JC, Diablo Valley College, recently had a massive "grades-for-cash" scandal that shook the state to its core.
Long story short, some asshole was running a ring of student workers at the college who charged money for the changing of grades before they were entered by the student workers into the main computer system at the end of the year. They were caught, and the ringleader was charged with an number of felonies, and the resulting prison time and deportation. When his family learned he was going to be deported after serving prison time, they screamed "RACISM! RACISM! RACISM!" and the judge caved in and let hime post bail. Currently, the asshole is a fugitive after skipping court.
The kid in the article deserves to be charged with every single thing the cops can make stick, thrown in prison, and when his MAXIMUM TIME is up, kicked out of the country for life. These sorts of scandals affect *EVERYBODY* at the schools where they occur, since it adds a cloud of suspicion to their record, regardless if it is legit or not.
Call me insensitive, but they should send him to Leavenworth, Attica, ADX Florence, or San Quentin and scare the living shit out of them. Even Guantanamo Bay is starting to sound like a good destination for him.
His parents should be given a commentdation for refusing to bail their jackass son out of the slammer.
When you have a tally like this:
34 felony counts of altering public record .....AND you screw over everybody who attends your school, the notion of "cruel and unusual punishment" should be embraced, rather than detested. If he doesn't want to live by the rules, why protect him?
11 felony counts of stealing and secreting public records
7 felony counts of illegal computer access and fraud
6 felony counts of burglary
4 felony counts of identity theft
3 felony counts of altering book of records
2 felony counts of receiving stolen property
1 felony count of conspiracy
1 felony count of attempting altering of a public record
FROM ANOTHER ARTICLE:
"Mr Khans defence lawyer, Carol Lavacol, described her client as a really nice kid and said: Theres a lot more going on than meets the eye."
-Sure. It's not his fault. It's society's fault. It's everybody elses fault, but not his.
AND ANOTHER ARTICLE:
"Khan's attorney, Merlin Stapleton, told the local rag that the charges were too severe. He said it was not the first time a kid cheated and often they did these sorts of things to find out if they could."
-Awwwww..... Is somebody not happy with suffering the consequesnces of their actions? He's right though: It's not the first time someone cheated, and it sure as hell isn't the first time someone was punished for it.
""and often they did these sorts of things to find out if they could.""
-So they cheated and burglarized to find out of they could get away with cheating and burglary? Well, the definitely found out the answer to that question. Too bad it wasn't on the test.
Enough with the bleeding heart defense lawyers! This isn't exactly an off-the-cuff accusation: This was a completed and well thought out crime and conspiracy by Khan and his accomplice, with more than enough proof.
To hear Mr. Khans defense lawyers say such stupid claims makes me think that the defense team is as smart as the defendant.
Personally, I think a good, old-fashioned public beating is in order. I have a baseball bat I'm willing to donate to the cause!
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'm seeing a secretary printing up the report cards, thumbing through the grades as she realizes that they were doctored... "Hey, I didn't know he got straiKHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!"
Of course, he's not going to get the maximum, or anything close, but let me respond to your sentiment nonetheless:
Taking responsibility for choices we make is all part of growing up.Throwing people in jail for a long time doesn't allow them to grow up. Or, rather, it forces them to grow up outside of society, in a different paradigm--one whose lessons lead to disaster on the outside. As a general rule, I am very much against locking kids up, because it doesn't help society one iota.
Taking responsibility is important; but it is even more important that he grow up.
I had a run-in with the law when I was in high school. It impressed upon me that the world of high school is not the world. This got me through the rest of it. It's easy for high school kids to think that the school is the whole world. This leads to things like falsifying your grades or killing people because they pick on you. If we want people to grow up, we need to allow them into society. We can't sequester them off into prisons or schools.
This kid thought it wasn't as big a deal as it was. It's very easy to think that when your world is a high school. You see the small actions as sneaking into someone's office and installing a keylogger, then the small actions of changing your grades, as the small actions they are. Maybe there's a rush of adrenaline the first time, but then it just gets to be routine. It's no big deal, right? You're tapping away at your computer. But then the real world comes in and shows you the implication of those actions and then you get it.
I'd wager he gets it now. There's no reason to rub it in.
+5, funny!
This "shiftless" user#410350 needs to be flagged and traced to the individual in question and have the police made aware of its potential for conscienceless murder, rape, and general evil. This is not a joke.
Really? I thought it was pretty funny. You got some things right, but you are so far off base in other areas it's not even funny. Here's your first mistake. Just because a person is a psychopath does not mean he is a rapist, murderer, or even evil. A lot of murderers/rapists/etc are psychopaths, yes, in the same way that a lot of criminals are gun owners. Does that make every gun owner a criminal? Of course not.
The desire to give a free and fair chance to psychopaths, to give them the benefit of the doubt, is what gives them power over us;
Actually, what gives us power over you is our willingness to go to any length, bear any burden, etc to win and prevail at any cost.
The only answer is to remove them from positions of power and either incarcerate them for life or destroy them.
Yeah, good luck with that, LOL.
Wow... you must know of some special grades, as mine have never hacked anything, never mind actually DONE something... but alas, we won't know what those hacking grades did because you totally forgot to tell us what they did the next day with, apparently, NORAD.
Too bad we can't have a "learn-basic-grammar" modifier to rep points.
$0.02 (CDN)
I think a suitable punishment would be for him to be sent back to he's original country, and have to re-submit paperwork to be allowed to come back. He got caught.. now imagine how many others who do this dont get caught... and endup getting a Job because their transcript shows that they have all A's which they dont deserve. Would you like this guy to do surgery on you, if he decides to become a doctor?? If we become too lenient to this type of abuse, the word gets out and others will try the same.
So I take it that you did not see wargames?
May be slightly off-topic, but then again...
This kind of article is one that usually gets people to choose sides almost immediately. The truth of the matter is that students like Kahn should have the benefit of being recognized for their talents early on and foster them so they don't go on to commit crimes such as this; possibly going on to work in consulting firms or for the military if they so choose.
With identity thefts on the rise in the past several years due to massive data breaches at credit card companies, banks, etc., in addition to breaches at government agencies, it is not difficult to ascertain that the state of information security in this country is in dire straits. Discussions can be had with regard to where the break-down in security occurred, but that's besides the point.
With many other nations focusing on building their cyber-warfare capabilities, as is the U.S. of course, Kahn will more than likely be scooped up by any number of government agencies or end up working for a military contractor as a 'plea deal'. Since this in *no way* rises to the level of what Kevin Mitnick did, odds are that Kahn will have things work out in his favor at some point down the line. With the laws in this post-911 world being much stricter, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I agree that his actions more than likely caused some innocent kids to get looked over for scholarships and the like, but I seriously doubt he'll be tossed aside. Then again, if he's an arrogant little prick, they'll drop the hammer on him so fast, he won't know what hit him.
yup he is a retard i agree with the person who posted that on the newspaper, honestly he probibly had someone to help him ;)
KAAAHHHHNNNNN!
Darn...it appears I was too late and this joke has already been used.
I think instead of prison, he should have to write...oh maybe 20 million times or so I will not hack. Thats the way we did it in the old school days by cracky ;-) No diploma until he finishes.
When you're 18 years old, everything is fun, especially naughty stuff. He didn't cause death and mayhem, what he did was the equivalent of cooking the books. He's being a good capitalist, he just got caught.
Now, if you're running for President, the sentence for fiddling the results should be harsh indeed.
When you're 18, you're expected to follow the example of your elders, no?
He got busted because he was an ass at planning. Fine. But he altered the scores, which was probably the original goal of his actions.
I have no love for script kiddes - but you should never underestimate them. They often have social skills or creativity beyond that of many programmers. And they get the job done using simple and proven methods; an approach which is mostly rewarded (jobs, career, etc).
The most dangerous "hacker" is one who doesn't care about professional pride. Only about the end goal: stealing and/or altering data.
In fact, these low-tech "script kiddy" approaches are the ones most feared by security experts. Because they are neither too proud or too afraid of bypassing normal security measures by using social engineering or physical force (breaking into an office). This kid would probably have gotten NOWHERE if he had attempted to hack the schools systems from a remote xDSL line, getting past the firewalls and routers, port scanning, sniffing protocols, and using exploits. His solution? Install a keylogger on a computer in the administration. Then use the information collected. Simple and efficient.
According to this story from 2006, social engineering and low-tech approaches are among the biggest security threats.
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
Omar Kahn? Kahn. Do you read me? Kahn?! KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN!
hacking a few high school grades deserves 38 years in prison. get a load of that.
Read radical news here
You just got troll'd!
All he had to do was write the answers on his arm or copy off the kid next to him, and he could've cheated his way to A's just like everyone else does with zero consequences.
stuff |
Goddamn Mongols! Stop breaking down my shitty firewall!
What are you, a fucking internet psychologist? I knew there was some shit seriously wrong with me for years and it was not until I was diagnosed with psychopathy that I finally knew what it was. There goes all your grand and varied theories right out the window. Funny that you call me the coward when you are such a pussy that you won't even post under your real user account. Go find someone else's posts to troll, troll.
In many schools they would not award the degree then.
Many college apps ask about criminal records. Certain types of crimes or a false answer can prevent admission to college. There was a famous case about a Harvard student being expelled for not putting her murder conviction on the application.
End result:
Troll gets sent to PMITA Prison for 25 to life, Omar gets an effective pardon.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Conversely, some murderers get off with under ten years.
Are you really saying that changing your grades is even remotely within the same ballpark as killing someone?
Time to come back to reality, pal.
Yes, he did something stupid and was caught. Yes he should be punished. Is the punishment too harsh? Absolutely. He is up for more jail time than people who are convicted of actual, violent crimes.
"Trust that little voice in your head that says 'Wouldn't it be interesting if...' and then do it." - Duane Michals
You call ME insane?
Damn, did your Daddy come back from Iraq with no legs or something? Sheesh..
Blar.
You just don't include 12 more people into your 'crime'. It's not a secret anymore after that.
He was probably trying to cover his tracks by changing lots of kids' grades so if it was found out it wouldn't be immediately obvious. And he probably wasn't smart enough to do it from Starbucks.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The good news is that a large majority of the country disagrees with you too (yes, I know elitist libs, they are stupid too). Most of the country does think it is reasonable to give the telcoms immunity, since they were assisting the government after 9/11 in good faith and relied on the government's assurances they would be immune. I can only imagine if the government went back on a promise to you, oh-so-brilliant Tenebrousedge, you would find that unfair and be calling for heads. And that, too, would make you a hypocrite.
I do think it is funny that you use the word "treasonous." First you lefties redefine "patriotism" as slamming and criticizing your country. Now defending it is treasonous. Unbelievable. Up is down, black is white. Groupthink on Slashdot is smart, challenging it is dumb.
You may now resume your deep thinking, expressed as petty insults at dissenters.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you