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Roundest Object In the World Created

holy_calamity writes "An international research group has created the most perfect spheres ever made, in a bid to pin down a definition of the kilogram. It should be possible to count exactly the number of atoms in one of the roughly 9cm silicon spheres to define the unit. Currently the kilogram is defined only by a 120-year-old lump of platinum in Paris, but its mass is changing relative to copies held elsewhere. Other SI units have more systematic definitions."

509 comments

  1. Wishing... by AioKits · · Score: 4, Funny

    Did anyone else read "An international research group has created the most perfect spheres ever made" and think boobs?

    --
    "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    1. Re:Wishing... by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't know what kind of ero-manga you've been reading (Ok, perhaps I do...), but real boobs aren't spherical. Especially not ones that would be anywhere near being considered 'perfect'.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    2. Re:Wishing... by maxume · · Score: 3, Interesting

      CmdrTaco did. Look at the dept. line.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Wishing... by the_xaqster · · Score: 1

      All I can say is "What a load of Balls!"

      --
      I'm just here to regulate Funkyness
    4. Re:Wishing... by AioKits · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ero-manga?

      --
      "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    5. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Spherical boobs? :O

      That would never work. The area of join twixt boob and body would have zero area and they'd fall off.

    6. Re:Wishing... by joaommp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, those spheres are made of silicon...

    7. Re:Wishing... by pzs · · Score: 4, Funny

      Did anyone *not* think that?

    8. Re:Wishing... by efence · · Score: 4, Funny

      Did anyone else read "An international research group has created the most perfect spheres ever made" and think boobs?

      I have read "Roundest Object In the World Created " and immediately thought "CowboyNeal".

    9. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did anyone else read "most perfect", and flinch?

    10. Re:Wishing... by veganboyjosh · · Score: 4, Funny

      You know, as opposed to the other kind of manga...

    11. Re:Wishing... by _KiTA_ · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ero-manga?

      Ero-Manga is the proper term for what most clueless US fanboys call "Hentai Manga."

      Specifically, he was pointing out that some Ero-Mangaka ("Hentai Artists") draw breasts as if they were morbidly huge helium filled balloons floating on top of a woman's chest.

      All this in an attempt to state that you do not know what good breasts look at, having (apparently?) based your opinion on Japanese ero-manga anatomy.

      All this in a completely-missing-the-point of the "Heh, Boobs are Round, Scientists are Horny" joke he was replying to.

      ... Wow, geeky of me, eh? I do however, wish to go on the record that I fully support scientific efforts to find/create the perfect breasts.

    12. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At the old folks' home, they could be considered a series of tubes.

    13. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silicon ?

    14. Re:Wishing... by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 5, Informative

      Please don't go around trying to be witty against people who don't just live in Japan, but also speaks the language.

      Ero-manga is what they call it. If I wanted to talk about hentai, the really creepy kind of mangas, I'd have called it that.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    15. Re:Wishing... by MrNaz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yea, but I've seen more worst cases of grammatical error on Slashdot.

      --
      I hate printers.
    16. Re:Wishing... by xerxesVII · · Score: 1

      What is teet?

      Wait, I'm asking that question in a thread where we're talking about boobs. Great.

      --
      "We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
    17. Re:Wishing... by chewedtoothpick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Honestly, as a married man I don't understand why anyone would think that...

      My first thought was of more efficient ball bearings. Such perfect ball bearings alone could reduce world-wide energy usage by a large percentage. Technology like this is the truly "green" tech that we need to proliferate in addition to the other forms we are currently working on.

      --
      Erutangis ym si siht.
    18. Re:Wishing... by somersault · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I do however, wish to go on the record that I fully support scientific efforts to find/create the perfect breasts

      If all women had scientifically 'perfect' breasts then those perfect breasts would get pretty boring, unless the scientific process took into account many different factors and created different breasts for each person. I think 'perfect' is all down to personal preference.

      There is beauty in many different breast shapes, though everyone will have their preferences. I think any slashdotter with access to any kind of breasts would be pretty happy. Apart from the female ones, they probably aren't too fussed.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    19. Re:Wishing... by tenco · · Score: 1
      Yes. I did. Who the hell associates "(perfect) sphere" with "breast" anyway? Hello? Nipples?! But to let you in on what *I* thought:
      1. Man, this "news" is so old...
      2. That's a dupe, right?
      3. And it wasn't news when it was posted on slashdot for the first time
    20. Re:Wishing... by GregNorc · · Score: 2, Funny

      No. I thought we've already created the roundest object in the world:

      WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT

    21. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did anyone else read "An international research group has created the most perfect spheres ever made" and think boobs?

      Rule 34.

    22. Re:Wishing... by sdpuppy · · Score: 1
      Yes, but the other spheres that are being discussed in this thread are made of silicone

      { Well, at least have that as one of their ingredients }

    23. Re:Wishing... by superdana · · Score: 5, Funny

      *raises her hand*

    24. Re:Wishing... by nx6310 · · Score: 1

      I can't believe boobs roundness is still an issue we're wasting time on, yes we did. Lets move on

    25. Re:Wishing... by gnick · · Score: 5, Funny

      There is beauty in many different breast shapes, though everyone will have their preferences. I think any slashdotter with access to any kind of breasts would be pretty happy. Apart from the female ones, they probably aren't too fussed.

      Sadly, I suspect that a great many slashdotters have breasts. Male or female...

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    26. Re:Wishing... by Drakonik · · Score: 1

      No, not zero. The plane of her chest would just have to be tangent to her boobs.

    27. Re:Wishing... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Specifically, he was pointing out that some Ero-Mangaka ("Hentai Artists") draw breasts as if they were morbidly huge helium filled balloons floating on top of a woman's chest.

      No, that would make them have lift, again leading to non-spherical form. The only way to actually get breasts like that would be to make them completely massless, which in turn would require either making them from photons or boiling away the Higg's sea.

      Bad Japanese Hentai Breast Effect: Solid light or localized cancellation of Higg's Sea ? I wonder if that would fly as a doctorate dissertation ?-)

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    28. Re:Wishing... by gnick · · Score: 1

      My first thought was of more efficient ball bearings. Such perfect ball bearings alone could reduce world-wide energy usage by a large percentage. Technology like this is the truly "green" tech that we need to proliferate in addition to the other forms we are currently working on.

      Only if we could make rounder bearings for roughly the same cost as the ones being produced now. Maybe worth looking at, but we're pretty damned good at making ball bearings right now. They're nearly perfectly round (not to the scale of the things in this article, but pretty good) and they're dirt cheap (low labor/material usage for production).

      I'm not trying to dissuade you from what may be a good idea, but everything that we look at to possibly save energy needs to be investigated all the way from raw material collection to manufacture to energy use at the end user level.

      I'm just saying.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    29. Re:Wishing... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Or the absolute worse lolicon.

    30. Re:Wishing... by Thiez · · Score: 5, Funny

      They are Dalek-bumps, you insensitive clod!

    31. Re:Wishing... by somersault · · Score: 4, Funny

      That explains how they can cope with living in their parents basements - if I had a decent set of breasts I could amuse myself for hours on end!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    32. Re:Wishing... by zrobotics · · Score: 2, Informative

      You do realize that, in the real world, these perfect spheres are, most likely, impossible to produce in large quantities. And, even if they do figure out how to mass-produce them, they'll wear out very quickly. They're made of silicon, for God's sake. Sand. Abrasive.

      Something like this is useful in a laboratory setting, but useless in the real world. You have to strive to create the best tolerances with the materials you have, but lower-friction bearings are unlikely to result from perfect spheres. There'll be uses, don't get me wrong, but most of those uses will probably be in very high-precision test equipment, sensors for spacecraft, etc. Replacing all the bearings in, say, my car with ones using perfect spheres would probably increase the efficiency only negligibly. Other factors, such as aerodynamics, weight reduction, efficiency of the engine in producing power, etc. would give much greater efficiency gains, without the exacting precision necessary to create spheres that are perfect on an atomic level. So yeah, it's cool, but it isn't likely to find it's way into 'green' technology, since the precision required to produce then doesn't justify the efficiency gains. So please, before you toss the green buzzword onto everything, stop for a moment and think "Will ball bearings that are perfect spheres, on an atomic level, really matter in a manufacturing process that deals with tolerances of thousandths of inches? Nope."

    33. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think (almost) every language has a different word for comics, porn comics, and a every category of it.

      Using Japanese in English is about being smug. Whether you are Japanese or not has nothing to do with it.

    34. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Only on Slashdot would some pathetic explaination - off topic at that - of the nuances of Japanese porn get a +5 informative mod. Please folks, you can jack off to Japanese porn comics all you want, but don't try to make it seem sophisticated.

    35. Re:Wishing... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      My first thought was of more efficient ball bearings. Such perfect ball bearings alone could reduce world-wide energy usage by a large percentage. Technology like this is the truly "green" tech that we need to proliferate in addition to the other forms we are currently working on.

      Would it actually matter ? How much energy is wasted because of roughness of ball bearing balls, rather than their malformation under pressure due to elasticity ? In other words, could you get higher savings by making the balls harder, rather than smoother ? And let's not forget the chamber they're supposed to fit into - can that be made perfectly round ?

      You know, this is one of those conservations where it probably wasn't such a good idea to post "as a married man" on the top ;)...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    36. Re:Wishing... by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      All this in an attempt to state that you do not know what good breasts look at

      I suspect that should read as "what good breasts look like". Then again, good breasts generally look at things slightly wall-eyed, rather than straight ahead or cross-eyed.

    37. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My first thought was Karl Pilkington's head. Is there something wrong with me?

    38. Re:Wishing... by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      not to mention the little detail that you'll still be adding lube, which has more drag due to its stickyness than the perfect spheres will add as an improvement over 'normal ball bearings.

    39. Re:Wishing... by Poltras · · Score: 1

      No, not zero. The plane of her chest would just have to be tangent to her boobs.

      Uh... and what would be the area of the junction between a tangent plane and a sphere? Go fetch back your math books.

    40. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, thanks, I was really confused. I'm sure nobody understood what he meant. Very informative of you.

    41. Re:Wishing... by raynet · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps they have perfect silicon sphere breast enlargements.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    42. Re:Wishing... by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Sure. I do what I can for fellow geeks. Now, if only I could think of an analogy for how good breasts feel. Maybe like bags of sand.

    43. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a typical example of the "expert" advice you often see here. The "efficiency" of ball bearings is not determined by the roundness of the balls, but by material deformation, pitting by grit which enters the bearing, the need for lubrication etc. Even with perfectly round balls, the power use of most machines would be reduced by far less than 1 percent.

    44. Re:Wishing... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Hrm... If you think boobs are round, then I'm guessing you haven't seen too many real ones.

    45. Re:Wishing... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The single guys think of boobies.

      The married guy thinks of balls.

      I'm not sure what kind of commentary that is on our social structures...

      I, for one, am married, and that means I think of boobies *more* often. Of course, now, some of the time I'm wondering how much milk they hold. Which doesn't really help when we're discussing solid spheres.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    46. Re:Wishing... by Sporkus · · Score: 4, Funny

      7337 neologism

      Your misspelling (misnumbering?) of 1337 is strangely appropriate.

    47. Re:Wishing... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      The only way to actually get breasts like that would be to make them completely massless

      Actually, if they were massless, they would have more lift than helium. It's not as though helium has a negative mass. It has a postive mass less than air. So air goes underneath the balloon and pushes it up. With a massless ball, this effect is more pronounced.

      Also, as a matter of fact, photons do have mass. They are affected by gravity at any rate, which I assume is the same thing.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    48. Re:Wishing... by dotancohen · · Score: 2, Funny

      What is teet?

      What you walk on when your feef hurt.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    49. Re:Wishing... by Brigadier · · Score: 1

      I think that breast are in fact truly the most studied and researched of all objects. Compared by female scholars far and wide. Studied by make scholars the world over. I believe that what we see today is a result of that survey. a Breast for each man, well and woman as it would turn out. :)

    50. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So then what we really need is for science to figure out a way how to make "mood boobs" that can change shape depending on their user's desires...

    51. Re:Wishing... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Girl? On Slashdot??

      Prepare to be inundated by Date requests to Basements ... er "BatCaves".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    52. Re:Wishing... by regular_gonzalez · · Score: 1

      That sound you just heard was the frantic clicking of thousands of sweaty nerds clicking your profile hoping for pics, with only a brief pause to recover from the shock of a female on the Internets, let alone Slashdot of all places.





      We were sadly disappointed.

      --
      Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
    53. Re:Wishing... by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Does CowboyNeal herd spherical cows?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    54. Re:Wishing... by Fizzlewhiff · · Score: 1

      I read it and thought perhaps scientists had cloned Karl Pilkington's head.

      --

      'Same speed C but faster'
    55. Re:Wishing... by dword · · Score: 1

      We're talking about a perfect sphere created by scientists who have been working on this for years maybe and the first /. post leads to boobs. WTF???

    56. Re:Wishing... by Fishead · · Score: 1

      The secret is in the angle of the boob host. Once you get her on her back, and the boobs are sitting perched upon her rib cage, they should sit nice and round.

      Been married almost 10 years now... and I still can't get enough of that set of boobs!

    57. Re:Wishing... by mattwarden · · Score: 5, Funny

      > Honestly, as a married man I don't understand why anyone would think that...
      >
      > My first thought was of more efficient ball bearings

      Thanks. I've printed this comment out and plan to show it to my friends when they bug me about why I'm not married.

    58. Re:Wishing... by beckerist · · Score: 1

      Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto

    59. Re:Wishing... by RMingin · · Score: 1

      Liar.

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    60. Re:Wishing... by lessermilton · · Score: 1

      I do however, wish to go on the record that I fully support scientific efforts to find/create the perfect breasts.

      Sorry mate, they belong to my girlfriend...

      ^_^

      --
      I wish I had a witty .sig
    61. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Joke-train wrecker. Let's see if I can put this back on track: How about them ASSES? Man cannot live (hehe) on breast alone. Better do this as an AC.

    62. Re:Wishing... by dfn_deux · · Score: 1

      Also, the shell bearings and roller bearings outnumber the ball bearings in the average automobile by a considerable margin. Ball bearings aren't appropriate for the majority of high load high tolerance tasks since the balls only meat the race at a very small contact area meaning that the race is much more easily damaged than the equivalent rollers or shell bearing.

      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    63. Re:Wishing... by korean.ian · · Score: 1

      Surely the correct term in English is "erotic comic"? An additional point is that the correct term to use with native English speakers (I'm guessing the vast majority of /. readers...) would be comic artist as opposed to ero-mangaka.

    64. Re:Wishing... by Umuri · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dude. Have some standards.

      Slashdotters are desperate but come on... a 7 digit UID? I think even having boobs might not quite save you from that to put you in the eyes of the nerds. :)

      --
      You never realize how much manually made unmanaged "linked" lists suck, till you have src.link.link.link.link...
    65. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, "eromanga" is a plain japanese word and not any kind of neologism. It just means "porn manga".

      "Hentai", however, is a western neologism that is not used in Japanese.

    66. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      but also speaks the language.

      You don't seem to speak it quite as well as you believe. "Hentai" is never used in Japanese to refer to porn.

      Well, except when making fun of the silly gaijin and their weird word usage.

    67. Re:Wishing... by GlobalEcho · · Score: 1

      ^^WHOOSH^^

      You missed the point...we married guys get a lot more action than all but a tiny fraction of single guys. Granted, the variety is vastly reduced, but it does allow us to spend more time using our brains for other things than schemes for getting laid.

      (*) Does not apply for significant periods after the birth of children

    68. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Only if you are hoity-toity enough to use the word "erotic" instead of "porn".

    69. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean absolute best.

    70. Re:Wishing... by smoker2 · · Score: 3, Funny

      And when did you last exterminate ?

    71. Re:Wishing... by tzot · · Score: 1

      I just wanted to express my appreciation for the optical/worplay joke you offered to us. Thank you.
      Burn, karma, burn.

      --
      I speak England very best
    72. Re:Wishing... by _KiTA_ · · Score: 1

      Only if you are hoity-toity enough to use the word "erotic" instead of "porn".

      Or "Otaku" instead of "Anime Fan".

      Or "Anime Fan" instead of "Fan of Japanese Cartoons".

    73. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point there.

    74. Re:Wishing... by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      They're made of silicon, for God's sake. Sand. Abrasive.

      Sand is abrasive because it has millions of tiny sharp edges. Perfect spheres don't.

    75. Re:Wishing... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Sadly, I suspect that a great many slashdotters have breasts. Male or female...

      You must be new here; there are no female Slashdotters.

    76. Re:Wishing... by zrobotics · · Score: 1

      Yes, but those sharp edges are due to it's crystalline structure. Using it as a ball bearing would likely cause small fractures in the sphere from load/friction, which would then create very abrasive projections and cracks. So while it is a perfect sphere, it isn't likely to stay that way for long. Silicon is pretty hard, but malleable it's not. That's why ball bearings last as long as they do-the steel's malleable enough to withstand the loads without shattering.

    77. Re:Wishing... by wattrlz · · Score: 1

      Is that like, 1337?

    78. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, photons have no mass.

    79. Re:Wishing... by maxume · · Score: 1

      6 digits, 7, what's the difference?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    80. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Photons have no rest, or relativistically invariant mass. It's most useful and sensible to reserve "mass" for the invariant mass if you're a physicist, granted, and that's why photons are called "massless", but invariant mass, the "length" of the energy-momentum 3+1D vector of a body, is something that laymen may need to work a little at to understand. Telling Joe Soap that "photons have no mass" will not really help him develop an intuition for relativistic photon physics without a bit more background (see provided link), as while photons have no rest mass, they certainly can hit stuff quite hard.

    81. Re:Wishing... by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      but real boobs aren't spherical

      We now know you don't look at porn. :)



      See also: implants.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    82. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, you're of course right for a true plane tangent to a sphere. However, a concave chest depression could be locally tangential to the boobspheres at every point over an area, "cupping" the boobspheres, and thus boobspheres may not fall off, though might need a deformed ribcage. (O

    83. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perfectly spherical boobs certainly aren't perfect boobs. No one wants tits that fall off and roll away.

    84. Re:Wishing... by paulgrant · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself; having a nattering wife break your concentration everytime u start messing with the space-time equations is *extremely* irritating.
      No I don't fucking care what your hair looks like, no I don't want a new effing couch - bugger off and take care of those brats u dropped etc.

    85. Re:Wishing... by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      If this was a Japanese-language message board, insisting that people use the correct Japanese words would actually make a lot of sense.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    86. Re:Wishing... by Pseudonym · · Score: 4, Funny

      Japan: Where every fetish is disturbingly specific.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    87. Re:Wishing... by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about porn exclusively...

      And if you think it's not even remotely connected to pornographic material, look up hentaiseiyoku, or search for hentaimanga (in kanji/katakana).

      I don't hear that used by the japanese people around me, but they're generally not the kind of people that frequent akihabara.

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    88. Re:Wishing... by Greyor · · Score: 1

      Not at all. I actually Ctrl-F'd for Karl to see if anyone had beaten me to it, and well, AC, you did so. Glad to see another Pilky fan out there. You a Pilkipedia fan as well?

    89. Re:Wishing... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      t's most useful and sensible to reserve "mass" for the invariant mass if you're a physicist, granted

      I am not a theoretical physicist. I'm concerned with how massive things are in relation to me. Hence, I consider photons as having mass, as the vast majority of them will be moving at fairly close to C. Whereas, airplanes, since they are moving at incredibly small speeds with relation to C might as well use their invariant mass.

      --
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    90. Re:Wishing... by level4 · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough, there is a town in Australia called Eromanga!

      http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=eromanga&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=76.967897,110.917969&ie=UTF8&z=8&iwloc=addr

      My Japanese friends all think it's suitably hilarious.

      --
      Let my new 7-digit UID be a lesson to all - write down your passwords.
    91. Re:Wishing... by level4 · · Score: 1

      it does allow us to spend more time using our brains for other things than schemes for getting laid.

      Some would argue that every achievement in the history of mankind is the result of schemes for getting laid ...

      --
      Let my new 7-digit UID be a lesson to all - write down your passwords.
    92. Re:Wishing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the only reason I'm on this thread.

    93. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about porn exclusively...

      But you were talking about porn. And it really isn't used for that.

      See http://wakaba.c3.cx/soc/kareha.pl/1121956450/4 for examples.

    94. Re:Wishing... by somersault · · Score: 1

      I have come to the decision that asses are scientifically more important than breasts. Better to have a lower sense of gravity for balance purposes. And hawtness. Oh yes indeed, the hawtness :D

      --
      which is totally what she said
    95. Re:Wishing... by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      No, I specifically said 'the really creepy kind of manga', nothing about 'porn' in that. When I said 'ero-manga', I _did_ talk about porn.

      See the difference?

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    96. Re:Wishing... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Yes, but nobody uses that word for that. Really.

    97. Re:Wishing... by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

      For those of you who haven't had the experience...

      Imagine soft skin, such as probably exists on the bottom of your lower arms, but hairless. This is the base texture. The underlying texture depends on a property breasts have, Firmness.

      If the Firmness is high then the underlying "hardness", (i.e.: a tightened muscle feels harder than a relaxed muscle) is different. Please note that a person's muscle feels different than a breast, and I am only describing the property of Firmness.

      In addition to the overlying texture and Firmness, there is another property, Weight. Weight is closely related to the fourth property I will discuss, Bounce. While Weight and Bounce are closely related to Appearance, a discussion of Appearance would be beyond the scope of this document. In any case, I assume that anyone reading this will be very familiar with the Appearance of the female breast. Weight is the property of objects you are already familiar with, the tendancy to be attracted to the earth.
      Bounce is the degree to which a breast will move freely about as it is manipulated. If a breast is tightly bound to the owner's body, it will have less bounce. More weight causes more bounce. Obviously, larger breasts weigh more.

      Imagine an object whose shape is such as you are familiar with from Appearance, whose Bounce is purportional to its Size and a second variable, degree of attachment. This object has an underlying, variable, firmness and an overlying soft texture. That is what a breast feels like.

      Further research into this area is, in the author's opinion, important. To fund further research, please reply to the Author's journal.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    98. Re:Wishing... by stevey · · Score: 1

      What you're saying is "Size isn't everything", right?

  2. The hubris of man by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    No mere human will never be able to accomplish what God did with Jennifer Lopez's ass.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:The hubris of man by Chineseyes · · Score: 1

      Or with Dave Chapelle's balls FLASH LINK!!!! You've been warned.

      --
      I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended

      --A wise old fart named SC0RN
    2. Re:The hubris of man by Sabz5150 · · Score: 5, Funny

      No mere human will never be able to accomplish what God did with Jennifer Lopez's ass.

      Perhaps not, but we are interested in pinning down the exact measurement of the kilogram, not the metric ton.

      --
      "Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
    3. Re:The hubris of man by somersault · · Score: 1

      I just googled it and I have to say.. eww. Vida Guerra FTW!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:The hubris of man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No mere human will ever be able to accomplish what God did with yo momma.

    5. Re:The hubris of man by mmkkbb · · Score: 1

      Vida Guerra's has the most hype-to-buttocks ratio I've ever seen.

      --
      -mkb
    6. Re:The hubris of man by TransEurope · · Score: 1
    7. Re:The hubris of man by somersault · · Score: 1

      *shrug* may have a lot of hype, but it's certainly not unfounded..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:The hubris of man by antdude · · Score: 1

      What did He do to her donkey? [grin]

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    9. Re:The hubris of man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      *shrug* may have a lot of hype, but it's certainly not unfounded..

      How could anyone not find them; seeing as how big they are?

    10. Re:The hubris of man by somersault · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if she were sunbathing in a mountainous valley? No matter which way she's lying you're going to have to cope with major peaks and valleys.

      Now there's a good idea for a hiking holiday if ever there was one :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    11. Re:The hubris of man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that's what you call "morbidly huge helium filled balloons".

    12. Re:The hubris of man by hey! · · Score: 2, Funny

      This thread is like a couple of janitors on break discussing the merits of the 2008 models according Yachting magazine.

      They might have the dinghies, but they'll never use them with the objects of discussion.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    13. Re:The hubris of man by the0 · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean 'metric assload'?

    14. Re:The hubris of man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends. Any guy can bang about as attractive a woman as he wants to if he has enough cash in hand.

    15. Re:The hubris of man by BigGar' · · Score: 1

      If we can pin either of the down sufficiently,we can derive the other.

      For example, if we pin down Jennifer Lopez's Ass Mass accurately enough we can state that a kilogram is a 1/785,235th (for instance) of the LAM *Lopez Ass Mass".

      --


      Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
  3. anyone by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does anyone here want to inform CmdrTaco that boobs shouldn't be perfectly spherical, and in fact, it's preferable if they're not?

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:anyone by oahazmatt · · Score: 4, Funny

      Does anyone here want to inform CmdrTaco that boobs shouldn't be perfectly spherical, and in fact, it's preferable if they're not?

      It's not his fault. He watched a lot of Baywatch. He doesn't know any better.

      --
      Those who believe the Internet is private,
      find their privates are on the Internet.
    2. Re:anyone by joaommp · · Score: 1

      He should know better, he's a geek and he got married...

    3. Re:anyone by PachmanP · · Score: 1

      It's because they're silicone! Not because they're round! Gah.

      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    4. Re:anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      He watched a lot of Baywatch.

      CmdrHasselhoff?

  4. Finally by Rik+Sweeney · · Score: 4, Funny

    No one will be able to claim that a game of pool, snooker or soccer was won because the ball wasn't round enough...

    1. Re:Finally by Vectronic · · Score: 1

      So... someone/thing creates the next stage in the lust for the perfect sphere, and suddenly every other sphere in existance is upgraded to this new standard?

      Damn right they can complain, if anything it gives them more of an excuse - "I oh fuck that, i coulda made that shot if the ball was a ______"

      I highly doubt more than one person would pay some $500,000,000 or whatever for a set of pool balls made in the same fashion as these were.

      Yeah yeah, "it was a joke"...but... (What is

    2. Re:Finally by Jesus_666 · · Score: 5, Funny

      A soccer match with a ball made from solid silicon? Now that's something I'd pay to watch.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    3. Re:Finally by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      But what about Rugby, you insensitive clod?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Finally by m303 · · Score: 1

      Well, if we played Snooker with perfectly round balls, then we also need a perfectly flat table.

      A perfectly flat table would be a table where every point of the surface has exactly the same distance to the earth center of gravity. That would make the table surface a spherical sector.

      --
      `dd if=/dev/sig ibs=120 count=1`
    5. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, and instead of planar geometry we'd be using great circle arcs to plan our shots. Ugh...

  5. gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Doesn't gravity's effect imply that a perfectly round object could only exists in "gravity-free" (outer) space?

    1. Re:gravity? by pipatron · · Score: 1

      No.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    2. Re:gravity? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Any object in a gravitational field will be slightly elongated due to tidal forces, but I suppose you could allow for that by making it slightly prolate to start with.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:gravity? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Doesn't gravity's effect imply that a perfectly round object could only exists in "gravity-free" (outer) space?

      Not if it is sufficiently rigid. GRavity is not that strong compared to, say, the weak nuclear force.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  6. What's the problem? by Dolda2000 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I've never really understood the problem with creating a more stringent definition of the kilogram. Other SI units are measured in measurable quantities, such as the second being defined in terms of cycles of radiation from Caesium atoms. Why cannot the kilogram just as easily be defined as the mass of a certain number of atoms of one or another kind?

    Of course, I'm no experimental physicist, but if I were to guess, I might suggest the fact that the binding energy (and thus the mass) might change with force-field fluctuations in the vicinity, but I think that problem should be solvable by defining the proper environment for measuring.

    Does anyone know?

    1. Re:What's the problem? by joaommp · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's precisely what they are trying to do.

    2. Re:What's the problem? by Zironic · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is what they are doing. They are defining the kilogram as X silocon atoms.

    3. Re:What's the problem? by mspohr · · Score: 0

      Duh... If you RDFA you will see that this is what they are trying to do...

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    4. Re:What's the problem? by icegreentea · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can define a kilogram in the number of atoms of X element, but you still need a physical object to calibrate your scales against. In this case, I believe they did it by number of silicon atoms. TFA says they went and milled a silicon sphere (purified to only Silicon-28) weighing as close to the current standard as they can get it. Next they're going to measure it (X-rays and the such) to find the density, spacing, and the such and end up getting a number of silicon atoms. This number will now BE the kilogram, and these spheres are going to be the new physical standards. They are suppose to be an improvement in that is it theoretically possible to recreate these spheres should anything happen to them (as we know the amount silicon needed), while it is not possible to recreate the current standards.

      My other summary was a bit off, got the process a little backwards.

    5. Re:What's the problem? by cavtroop · · Score: 1
      you didn't RTFA, did you?

      "One proposal, pushed by an international team called the Avogadro Project, aims to define the kilogram in terms of a specific number of silicon atoms. Just how many? That's where the newly created silicon spheres come in."

      they're creating these spheres so they can measure that. The article is pretty neat, actually.

    6. Re:What's the problem? by nkh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Where I was studying a few years ago, I had a teacher who was working with a french laboratory to create a standard for the kilogram. It was supposed to work with a machine to record the pressure applied to it (some kind of scale as far as I understood) and a bunch of lasers to measure everything. It was the first and only time I've heard about someone trying to standardize the kilogram.

    7. Re:What's the problem? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Does this mean that we do not, in fact, know the atomic weight of Silicon to a precise enough degree?

    8. Re:What's the problem? by phobos13013 · · Score: 1

      Well, the problem comes from some changes in definition of SI Units. Most notably between relative changes in mass from the standard kilogram which introduces uncertainty to any measurement. Also, this change can tie Avogadro's constant to the kilogram as a result! Currently it is a measure of atoms/molecules in a gram of substance (with units of inverse mol), and as a result is not exact. By making it unitless as tying it to a count of the kilogram atoms the measure can now be exact!

      --
      ...and it should be known by now
    9. Re:What's the problem? by HEbGb · · Score: 1

      Then why are they wasting all of this time and energy making a physical "standard"? This reeks of agency PR.

    10. Re:What's the problem? by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've never really understood the problem with creating a more stringent definition of the kilogram.

      Others have pointed out that they are doing more or less what you advocate, but let me address the more general issue.

      Remember that the definitions for the fundamental units are intended, above all, to be *practical*. In other words, the goal is to make the definition as easy as possible for a competent scientist/engineer anywhere in the world to reproduce in order to calibrate some instrument. All the fundamental units have been defined this way, except one: the kilogram.

      There are numerous ways they could define a kilogram, but they all suffer either from the non-portability problem (e.g., using a unique artifact, which no one has access to), or the expensive, difficult device problem. Counting the number of atoms in a perfect sphere is not exactly a simple engineering problem. But it's the best anyone has come up with so far.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    11. Re:What's the problem? by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      The problem is, how to line up the silicon atoms(or whatever element you're using)for counting. A kg of silicon 28 contains some 2x10^22, give or take a few. And the few are the issue.
      The second is defined as 9 192 631 770 swings per second. To be equally precise you need to get the mass of the kg right into the picogram scale. Or, if you do the math on the surface area of the ball, you need to be within 1 nm all around to be better than 1 nanogram in knowing the weight of your ball. And then you need to know the spacing of your silicon atoms to an equally high precision to start counting them.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    12. Re:What's the problem? by multi+io · · Score: 0, Redundant

      That is what they are doing. They are defining the kilogram as X silocon atoms.

      And why do they have to actually create a silicon sphere for that? Couldn't they just define some reasonable X and then derive the actual weight of the kilogram from theoretical models?

    13. Re:What's the problem? by Markspark · · Score: 1

      because the atomic mass unit U is defined from the thesis that 1 mole of Carbon atoms weighs in at 12 grams.

      --
      i find your lack of faith in science disturbing!
    14. Re:What's the problem? by magarity · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't calibrate a scale by telling it your theoretical model - at some point there actually has to be a physical thing.

    15. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Because the French government funded them to keep the standards held relevant, lest people realize just how redundant they are in the face of modern platonic definitions of these units.

      --
      I hate printers.
    16. Re:What's the problem? by icegreentea · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's exactly what the TFA says. They've created two spheres made out of pure crystalline silicon (so now they've lined them up). The sphere is nearly perfect (its about 95mm in diameter, has small scale variations of 0.3nm, and deviations from perfect cruve of 60-70nm). Now they're going to independently measure 60 000 points of the surface of the sphere to map out all of the surface variations, and then they're going to measure spacing using X-ray crystallography.

      Also, nitpicking but... one kilogram = 10^15 picograms, always.

    17. Re:What's the problem? by maxume · · Score: 3, Informative

      If it isn't possible to consistently construct and measure the spheres (or some other object), then the a number of atoms isn't particularly more useful for calibration (which is the whole point) than the old standard.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    18. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't they just define some reasonable X and then derive the actual weight of the kilogram from theoretical models?

      The definition of a unit is completely useless if you haven't got a method of actually creating something to calibrate your devices with.

      Of course, one could just go and say "1 mol is exactly 6.022*10^23 particles" and "1 kg is 1000/12 of the mass of 1 mol of C12". But now, how do you create an object consisting of exaclty 6.022*10^23 C12-Atoms so you can calibrate your scale?

    19. Re:What's the problem? by multi+io · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The theoretical model would include physical things -- namely, silicon atoms. Just like the theoretical model for the definition of the second includes the speed of light. If silicon atoms are too difficult to handle theoretically, why not use, say, electrons, as in 1kg=weight of 1.1xxxe30 electrons (at rest)?

    20. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not totally worthless, as the kilogram is the basis for just about all other SI units. It is the only unit that is not defined according to other units, or in relation to a natural property. Thus, its definition is arbitrary, and everybody must agree as to what a kilogram is before the unit has any value as a standard. There's a very nice explanation of the kilogram as a fundamental unit here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram#Importance_of_the_kilogram

      --
      I hate printers.
    21. Re:What's the problem? by phobos13013 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We are getting measures mixed up here; they are not measuring the number of atoms for the kilogram, as that is not a measure of mass. They are measuring the number of atoms to make Avogardo's constant exact and tying it to the kilogram! They will define a specific number of atoms in a certain amount of the substance then saying that the kilogram is defined as the mass contained in X number of atoms!

      In fact, this change in the kilogram is coupled with a change in avogadro's constant to make one immutable and the other exact!

      --
      ...and it should be known by now
    22. Re:What's the problem? by sdpuppy · · Score: 1
      But now, how do you create an object consisting of exaclty 6.022*10^23 C12-Atoms so you can calibrate your scale?

      You find someone with a **lot** of time on their hands and very teeny tiny tweezers

      :-)

      But thats actually a pretty good question - would it be possible to take some crystal, and "count" the atoms using some technique such as Xray crystallography?

      Or perhaps use some vapor deposition scheme that could precisely deposit a specific # of atoms/ molecules (counted to the precision required?)

    23. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      A definition that fixes the number of atoms of a substance as defining the KG *does*, as it means that we are then able to further refine our *measurement* of the KG as techniques for doing so improve. It means that we will have fixed the kilogram at a discrete definition with relation to a natural phenomenon, and no longer will changes in the mass of an artifact alter that definition any more than changes in temperature which cause a given sample of water to expand or contract change the definition of a liter.

      --
      I hate printers.
    24. Re:What's the problem? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny

      why not use, say, electrons, as in 1kg=weight of 1.1xxxe30 electrons (at rest)?

      They tried that, but when they charged their terafarad capacitor with 1e30 electrons so that they could calibrate their scale, somebody accidentally grounded it and the massive arc of current blew the roof off of the lab.

    25. Re:What's the problem? by srjh · · Score: 1

      Sort of... we don't know the mass of one atom of Silicon to a precise enough degree, but "atomic mass" is generally measured in atomic mass units - i.e. relative to the mass of carbon-12.

      A mole of carbon-12 atoms weighs exactly 12 grams, but we just don't know how many atoms are in a mole (i.e. we don't know Avogadro's number).

      The mass of silicon-28 relative to carbon-12 is actually quite precisely known.

    26. Re:What's the problem? by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was pointing out why you go through the physical process. If you can't use it to produce a calibration mass that is superior to the current system *today*, then it isn't particularly useful to switch over to it (but it would be at the point that the calibration masses become superior).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    27. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never really understood the problem with creating a more stringent definition of the kilogram. Other SI units are measured in measurable quantities, such as the second being defined in terms of cycles of radiation from Caesium atoms. Why cannot the kilogram just as easily be defined as the mass of a certain number of atoms of one or another kind?

      I have a better solution:

      1 kilogram = 1 pound

      Problem solved.

    28. Re:What's the problem? by Lordpidey · · Score: 1

      Actually, it doesn't weigh 12 grams exactly. Don't forget, neutrons weigh SLIGHTLY more than one atomic unit.

      --
      Some people encrypt by using rot-13 twice. I prefer the more secure method of using rot-1 a total of twenty six times.
    29. Re:What's the problem? by clickety6 · · Score: 3, Funny

      That is what they are doing. They are defining the kilogram as X silicon atoms.

      Oh God! We're back to the earlier boobies thread again...

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    30. Re:What's the problem? by gnick · · Score: 1

      The theoretical model would include physical things -- namely, silicon atoms.

      But the fact remains - Even if you've got a theoretical model that contains physical things, unless you actually build it you can't put it on a scale.

      Tell you what - Work up a Solidworks model of the platinum block they're using now. Print it out, set it on your scale, and adjust the calibration until that reads 1 kg. Now step on and see how much you've gained.

      You can define the kg as a certain number of atoms, but unless you actually build one that doesn't buy you much.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    31. Re:What's the problem? by mikael · · Score: 1

      Maybe the mass would change due to natural decay. From this web page, there seem to be five natural stable isotopes, and one naturally radioactive isotope, which can undergo alpha particle decay.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    32. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's in fact what this is doing. The silicone balls are intended to be calibrated according to a fixed value of Avogadro's number, rather than the Avogadgro number being defined according to the standard. Given this, it would be possible for a researcher anywhere in the world to recreate their own standard.

      However, given that milling carbon into a monocrystalline structure is expensive (think 1kg diamond), they are using silicon instead. Thus, the KG would be defined in terms of the number of silicon atoms. They have yet to decide (as far as I know) whether to use naturally occurring silicon, or to remove all the isotopes and only use 28Si. This would, effectively, create a new number, redefining Avogadro's number as:

      Avogadros number = New Constant * (mass(12C) / mass(28Si))

      --
      I hate printers.
    33. Re:What's the problem? by tenco · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because you need a physical standard to compare. Mass of an macroscopic object is (mostly) measured by comparing it's gravitational force to the gravitational force of an etalon at a place where the same gravitational field strength is exerted on both objects. When you define a kilogram as the mass of $bignumber silicon-atoms, someone has to make the first etalon. Other etalons, like light of a specific wavelength for measurement of length and time, are easier to produce.

    34. Re:What's the problem? by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 1

      What he's saying is that ultimately, all of your experimental error has to be accounted for by your model. It would be nice to define 1kg as X atoms of X material, but as of the present, we have no way of measuring X atoms to any precision of any material. This group has moved us one step forward.

      For those of your who haven't have chemistry or physics in a few year, 12g of carbon has 6.022x10^23 atoms in it. Counting those accurately is essential to defining the kilogram.

    35. Re:What's the problem? by FrangoAssado · · Score: 1

      No, it *does* weight exactly 12 grams; that's the definition of the Avogadro's number.

      And while you're right that neutrons and protons have different mass, that's not the only complication. For example, the nucleus of an Helium atom has less mass then two nuclei of Hydrogen and two neutrons separated -- the difference is the amount of energy you get when you do Hydrogen fusion (well, *actual* Hydrogen fusion is a little more complicated).

    36. Re:What's the problem? by srjh · · Score: 1

      Actually, it does way exactly 12 grams. It is defined to weight 12 grams. Neutrons weigh slightly more than protons, but the mass of a proton is not 1 amu (it is actually ALSO more than 1 amu). You can't just add the mass of the constituent protons, neutrons and electrons to get the mass of an atom because when you combine them, you get binding energy. Energy = mass, therefore the combined mass is less than the sum of its parts (less, because the binding energy corresponds to the energy needed to separate them).

    37. Re:What's the problem? by multi+io · · Score: 1

      They could measure a smaller number of electrons (maybe just one?) and then multiply, or not?

    38. Re:What's the problem? by srjh · · Score: 1

      Note to self: If you misspell "weigh" twice in two sentences, you may need more sleep.

    39. Re:What's the problem? by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      I'm aware of my units, the error was actually in the number of atoms (should have been 10^25 in a kg).
      The problem is that even if they have the size of the sphere down to the unit cell level, the size of the unit cell itself is in question. The known distortion of the cell from crystal to crystal is larger then the error in the surface measurements, hence the reason given in TFA for redoing the crystallography, despite the huge volume of work in that field.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    40. Re:What's the problem? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Researchers need to calibrate real-world scales to measure macroscopic objects. You can't do this by calibrating a 1e-27 gram scale then "multiplying".

    41. Re:What's the problem? by lbgator · · Score: 1

      Oh God... is this another excuse for the rip off artist text book companies to make new versions? What a life.

    42. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...somebody accidentally grounded it and the massive arc of current blew the roof off of the lab.

      They could measure a smaller number of electrons (maybe just one?) and then multiply, or not?

      Well duh! They *could* but that would take all the fun out of it.

    43. Re:What's the problem? by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      the second is now defined in terms of itself ?

    44. Re:What's the problem? by Sethumme · · Score: 1

      Speaking of the conversion between larger and smaller sizes of the same SI unit, wouldn't it make more sense to make the universal definition of mass be in the gram to picogram range rather than the kilogram?

      A kilogram of mass ought to be much more susceptible to slight variations than a smaller amount. It seems the margin of error when manufacturing a physical model would be much smaller when you are being asked to count, for example, 5,000 silicon atoms in a picogram rather than make sure you have exactly 5x10^18 atoms in a kilogram.

    45. Re:What's the problem? by multi+io · · Score: 1

      What he's saying is that ultimately, all of your experimental error has to be accounted for by your model. It would be nice to define 1kg as X atoms of X material, but as of the present, we have no way of measuring X atoms to any precision of any material.

      Wouldn't it be possible to derive, using the known structure of a C atom, a mathematical expression for the mass of a C(12) atom, and if so, what irreducible constants would be present in that expression?

    46. Re:What's the problem? by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      Re "why do we need a ball of silicon?": here's an allegory that might be useful.

          You apply for a new job. Your boss says, "welcome aboard. Here's how you'll be paid. Every week, I'll give you a fat envelope with money in it."
          "Uh, how much money is that?" you ask.
          "One envelope's worth. It's somewhere around $600, I don't know exactly."
          "Umm, how can I be sure you're paying me the same every week?"
          The boss says, "Well, I make up a bunch of envelopes every week for all the employees, and I try to make sure they're equally fat. See look, here are some of them."
          "Dude, those are obviously not all the same size. I don't want to be rude, but can't you pay me a fixed number of dollars?"
          "Well, I pay all the other employees in envelopes, and I've got to have the same rules for everyone."
          "Okay," you say, "tell you what. Get one of your envelopes, and we'll open it up and count all the money in it exactly. Then you pay me, and everyone else, that much money each week."
          "If you insist", says your new boss. "But I'm still gonna hand it out in envelopes."

      For "dollar", read "atomic mass". For "envelope", read "kilogram". For "the number of dollars in the envelope", read "Avogadro's Number".

      The key part of this allegory is that to ensure consistency with past practice, the boss has to let you count the number of dollars in one particular envelope. It doesn't really matter which one, but there has to be a physical envelope.

    47. Re:What's the problem? by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      as the GP pointed out, it's the frequency of a cesium 133 transition ...

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    48. Re:What's the problem? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Then why are they wasting all of this time and energy making a physical "standard"? This reeks of agency PR.

      Think of what CSS would be without a reference implementation. Or OOXML. Or, oh, wait,...

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    49. Re:What's the problem? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      That's in fact what this is doing. The silicone balls are intended to...

      I have a strange feeling that we will soon be getting spam for silicon balls...

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    50. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They could measure a smaller number of electrons (maybe just one?) and then multiply

      People who spend their lives measuring electrons, don't multiply.

    51. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Measuring the mass of individual atoms is relatively easy. The problem lyes in counting atoms. It is very difficult and you have to be VERY close to the money when making a standard.

    52. Re:What's the problem? by cnettel · · Score: 1

      I would be very surprised if they used anything but isotopically pure silicon. The natural distribution is bound to be at least slightly variable and it would tie that unit to the environment on Earth far more than any of the other units do.

    53. Re:What's the problem? by vegiVamp · · Score: 0

      > everybody must agree as to what a kilogram is before the unit has any value as a standard.

      Is this somehow not the case with all standards ?

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    54. Re:What's the problem? by jaysones · · Score: 1

      Well, that seals it. I'm not going on a diet until they get this sorted!

    55. Re:What's the problem? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, I think the GP means "thing" in the sense of "concrete artifact" rather than "things that can be aggregated into an artifact with a certain hypothetical precision."

      "Calibration" of course isn't exactly the perfect term when applied to the standard itself. The current mass standard isn't really "calibrated"; sub-standards are calibrated against it. It may have been tweaked to produce the minimum error in the standards previously in use, but it's not quite the same thing.

      In this case, since the standard is really a theoretical model, the issue is practical. There's no practical way to count the atoms. In order to calibrate your sub-standards, you need an artifact to calibrate them against. The artifact would be used just like the old standard was used. Almost nothing would change on a day to day basis.

      I'm guessing there are two practical advantages. The first is that you have a recipe by which you can create a second kg artifact. While this is a bit like having two watches, still being able to recreate the second artifact would be helpful if the original one became unavailable. I also imagine that having a second artifact could serve as a kind of control; you'd compare the two artifacts to each other -- naturally they won't be perfectly matched. Then you store the control artifact safely. If later on you suspect something is wrong with your first artifact, you take the second one out for testing. In the worst case, you build a new set of spheres using the same or an improved recipe. You can't do that if the standard is defined in terms of an individual artifact.

      On the other hand, a standard which is defined in a theoretically reproducible way would be practically useless if there was no way to generate an artifact of sufficient precision to serve as if it were the new reference object. You'd know what a kg is, but you wouldn't have a practical way of checking the mass of affordably machined weights against it.

      So being able to produce a stable reference artifact of a certain precision is an important test of the practicality of the standard. If you can't do it with silicon, you've got to use some other material. Presumably, either a platinum object of the required precision cannot be made yet, or the stability of a platinum artifact is suspect, or silicon is just as good as platinum, but a lot cheaper.

      In any case, you can't "eat it too" until you "have your cake".

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    56. Re:What's the problem? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      The problem is, how to line up the silicon atoms(or whatever element you're using)for counting.

      That's easy. Give them 2 weeks with any decent Marine drill sergeant and those atoms will form a line double-quick!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    57. Re:What's the problem? by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      So why don't they measure something small, and extrapolate a kilogram from that ? Why actually have a physical kilogram as a standard ?

    58. Re:What's the problem? by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      Not quite, 2x10^25 atoms lining up at .5x10^-9m spacing gives you a line 10^16 m long - roughly 4 Million light years.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    59. Re:What's the problem? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      I've never really understood the problem with creating a more stringent definition of the kilogram.

      Hang on, let me just stop you there.

      OK... we're done.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    60. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't we say, a kilogram is X times the weight of Jennifer Lopez' ass, or when she's not around, the weight of to totally perfect spheres? Sheez... What took those scientists so long? Watching movies?

    61. Re:What's the problem? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      You don't have to use diamond. You can use graphite.

      But carbon is somewhat loaded with isotopes, some of which decay and change mass over time.

      Better to grow your regular crystal from something more pure and stable.

    62. Re:What's the problem? by John+Meacham · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is exactly precisely what they are trying to do.

      They are not making a physical standard. They are attempting to get away from one. The desire is to specify a kilogram as a specific number of a specific type of atoms, but what is that number? In order to do that, they need to create something that both:

      1. has a measureable mass that is equivalant to the current kilogram to the _greatest_ precision it is possible to measure with todays equipment. (with a fair amount of leeway)

      2. has the property that you can accurately determine the number of atoms in it to the limits of the above precision.

      if _either_ of those is off then you could end up with the situation that the 'new' kilogram and the 'old' kilogram are actually different values! Even though you might think the differences are to such a small degree it doesn't matter. Imagine something like using that one famous equation E = mc^2. suddenly those minor differences turn into kilotons of yield of error :)

      --
      http://notanumber.net/
    63. Re:What's the problem? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      That's utterly naff.

      They should have used a cylinder of diameter equal to its height.

      They could then calibrate its height against its diameter. They can check its radius simply by placing it in a circular template and rotating it, as they move the template vertically, looking for the gaps.

      Heck, they wouldn't even need to center it on the turntable. Just reflect a laser off the side, measure the deflection, and recalculate the surface from that. Take ten million data points in a few minutes.

      With a sphere, you can't even support it without getting your support in the way of your measurement. And just about any support arrangement you can imagine can cause distortion of the overall shape.

      Naff. These guys just wanted to say, "we made the most-perfect sphere" when talking about their imperfect spheroid nodules.

    64. Re:What's the problem? by jmv · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a problem with silicon isotopes having different weights? You need to specify the exact percentage of each isotope.

    65. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Well, yes, but derivative standards are true by reference to others. E.g., we all agree on the value of the Newton, but not because we agree on it independently but because it is defined with reference to the kilogram.

      Also, other standards are linked to natural phenomena. The meter is defined with reference to the speed of light, the distance traveled in 1â299,792,458 of a second. This, too, is an arbitrary number.

      The joule however, is define from the joule and the meter: It is one newton applied over a distance of one meter.

      The kilogram was the only measure left that was not derived directly from a discrete value referencing a fact of nature. The meter, given its definition, can be measured and remeasured anywhere in the world, and can be refined as our ability to measure improves.

      The kilogram however is defined according to "this one thing", making it impossible to actually measure it unless you physically have access to that one thing. Otherwise, you have to measure from copies of it, and copies may or may not be accurate.

      --
      I hate printers.
    66. Re:What's the problem? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I hope they use isotopically pure Si, however the tie does not necessarily have to be to earth if they define the proportions accurately and discretely.

      The reason this is even an issue is that it is not easy to actually obtain isotopically pure Si.

      That being said, I prefer the discrete definition method. I.e., it should be defined that a Kg is a certain number of atoms of a certain element. That way, just as with the meter, any researcher is free to remeasure or construct their own standard as accurately as they are able with reference to a documented, platonically defined standard.

      --
      I hate printers.
    67. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cesium didn't come in to it:

      "The second is defined as 9 192 631 770 swings per second. "

    68. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Kilogram article at wikipedia has some useful information.

      There is no electron rest mass counting approach per se but the Watt Balance relates the kilogram to the Planck constant, and so relates to the electromagnetic force that way.

      (It's very fiddly, but it also solves some difficult problems with extremely small oblateness differences of spheres tested in different gravitational potentials, which are also very fiddly since we don't have a particularly good way of constructing spheres in particular frames of reference, like one that is at rest with respect to the CMBR for example, or one that has exactly the same gravitational potential as at location X at date Y).

      You could also look at (positive) ion accumulation approaches to counting the application of the electron charge (by side effect, rather than by trying to accumulate a large negatively charged mass and containing the (much bigger) EM force when comparing the (small) gravitational one between the reference and test masses on a balance).

      Long-term, however, the "single pan" approaches are the most attractive if they are amenable to mass manufacture with high enough precision for lab work; physical reference masses are too prone to microscopic contamination. You would not believe the mass of a fingerprint! (A print that can't be seen with the naked eye might still mass almost 100 micrograms). Lint, abrasion, and charge from handling even in clean room conditions may affect outcomes at scales that dwarf the differentials in gravitational potential energy between the two pans.

  7. sphere by Elisanre · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Is there a reason for it to be a sphere? Easier to determin the weight?

    1. Re:sphere by marcovje · · Score: 2, Informative


      Crystal growth is often spherical. And very controlled crystal growth is a method to get a very uniform object without (many) defects.

    2. Re:sphere by marcovje · · Score: 1

      Hmm, it seems they polish it manually. Probably because it doesn't have edges then, which makes polishing it easier.

    3. Re:sphere by NovaHorizon · · Score: 3, Informative
      close. Easier to determine atom count with a sphere. something like..

      number of atoms = (volume * density) / mass of silicon atom

      With the volume of a perfect sphere simply being

      Pi*r^3 (I think)

      It's also much much easier to test for the perfection of a sphere over any other geometric shape. All you do is spin it with slight axis rotation while a laser is pointed at it, and measure the distance.

    4. Re:sphere by NovaHorizon · · Score: 1
      Also, don't confuse "mass of silicon atom" with "atomic mass of silicon atom"

      If you use atomic mass, you multiply instead of divide, and then also multiply by 1mol.

    5. Re:sphere by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Is there a reason for it to be a sphere? Easier to determin the weight?


      I'd guess its because a sphere has no edges to chip.

    6. Re:sphere by tenco · · Score: 1

      AFAICR, determining the number of atoms in a volume based on the materials density is most accurate when your volume is a sphere.

    7. Re:sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was not grown as a sphere, but was cut into a sphere after growth.

      What controlled crystal growth technique gives you perfect spheres?

    8. Re:sphere by Ardipithecus · · Score: 1

      (4/3) * pi * r^3 if you want the accurate volume

    9. Re:sphere by jbeaupre · · Score: 2, Funny

      Funny how they refer to it being a "roughly 9cm" sphere. All that effort to just say "screw it, call it 9cm and let's get out of here."

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    10. Re:sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crystal's growth is indeed spherical, but it really only ever happens when she eats out too often and doesn't work out enough.

    11. Re:sphere by treeves · · Score: 1

      Thank you AC, I can't believe that was modded Informative. Spherical crystals. Oy vey, whatever that means.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    12. Re:sphere by Alarindris · · Score: 1

      4/3 * pi * r ^ 3 I believe.

  8. Cleanroom? by lobiusmoop · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The picture in the article shows the sphere being handled in what obviously isn't a cleanroom. Won't that mess up its surface?

    --
    "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    1. Re:Cleanroom? by sveard · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just wipe it off with some kleenex.

    2. Re:Cleanroom? by seanadams.com · · Score: 4, Informative

      The picture in the article shows the sphere being handled in what obviously isn't a cleanroom. Won't that mess up its surface?

      I'm sure they don't cart the real ones around for press tours.

    3. Re:Cleanroom? by ruiner13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just wipe it off with some kleenex.

      Different kind of "balls", so what works for you won't work for them.

      --

      today is spelling optional day.

    4. Re:Cleanroom? by mentaldrano · · Score: 1

      That's actually the point - there are no "real ones," because you can always just make another one.

      "Oh, you touched that one? No problem." BZZZRT. "Here's another."

  9. Was Intel behind this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These spheres look an awful lot like the ones featured in the ray-traced version of quake wars...

  10. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    In a press release today, Sir Mix-A-Lot is quoted as saying that, by viewing this object, "You get sprung", as well as "[wanting to] pull up tough" because of the perfect shape of the object.

    He was later quoted as saying that "I like'em round and big, And when I'm throwin a gig, I just can't help myself". Clearly, he is an aficionado for perfectly round objects.

    * my captcha was "beating", which is what I deserve for the 90's reference.

    1. Re:In other news... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Clearly, you meant Kylie Minogue.

      Darn spell checkers are pretty much pus nowadays...

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    2. Re:In other news... by general+scruff · · Score: 2, Funny

      He was also quoted as saying "I'm goin' to get the friction on!", obviously showing his excitement to find the exact Coefficient of friction on such a smooth object.

      --
      As a rule, I never trust dark brown ketchup.
    3. Re:In other news... by PhasmatisApparatus · · Score: 1

      Better watch out, the RIAA will be all over you for using lines from a copyrighted song.

  11. Pong by The+Crooked+Elf · · Score: 5, Funny

    In other news... these same scientists are hosting the BEST GAME OF PONG EVER this weekend!

    --
    "Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
  12. Covered before by icegreentea · · Score: 1

    Covered this before on slashdot.

    http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/15/0541230

    That article was amount this (they were planning). This article is about them actually completing the task. Almost a dupe, not quite. Random stuff I remember from the last discussing. The sphere works be calculating the amount of silicon atoms that would weigh one kilogram (I'm guessing the kilogram as defined by the Paris Standard), and then using the crystalline structure of silicon to find the exact dimensions of a sphere containing that amount of atoms, and then they would go and mill the perfect sphere. By defining it as a precise number of silicon atoms, people can in theory completely recreate the kilogram if every standard was destroyed. As it stands now, if we lost the Paris standards, all the scales in the world would lose precision, and a kilogram here would not be a kilogram there.

    Mass scales have to have something physical to be calibrated against, so even if they defined kilogram as so and so many natural constants (Plank mass?), there would still have to be some sort of stable physical thing to calibrate the scales with (hence this badass sphere).

    1. Re:Covered before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not only "before", but ONE YEAR before.

      this link is from 2007.

  13. Metric... by jo7hs2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    So the metric system, which is touted as being so much more accurate than the measurements we here in the U.S. know and love is has a measurement that is based on a disappearing lump of metal? The only logical conclusion one can draw from this disclosure is that the metric system is magic, and should be burned at the stake.

    1. Re:Metric... by gardyloo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Perhaps it's due to the changing masses of ducks? I'm just sayin'...

    2. Re:Metric... by realisticradical · · Score: 1
      I was intrigued by your comment and wanted to see how the pound was defined so I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass) Apparently it's based on the kilogram.

      More importantly though I got to the chart a little ways down the page comparing different types of the pound and my head exploded.

    3. Re:Metric... by odourpreventer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It gets worse. US standards are based on metric standards. (For instance, the inch is defined as 25.4 mm.) You're basically using a French system!

    4. Re:Metric... by odourpreventer · · Score: 1

      Apparently it's based on the kilogram.

      I find this peculiar. I went to GVSU in Michigan for a short while (I'm from Sweden), and there the pound was used as a measure of force. My Swedish textbooks also had coefficients for converting between lb and N.

    5. Re:Metric... by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      That's the pound-force which is a different unit from the pound-mass. I'm surprised it is still used anywhere.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    6. Re:Metric... by camperdave · · Score: 1
      Well, hold on to your britches son, 'cause those imperial measurements you know and love are defined from the metric units:

      The system for measuring length in the United States' customary system is based on the inch, foot, yard, and mile, which are the only four customary length measurements in everyday use. However, for each of these units there exist two slightly different definitions, yielding two different systems of measure - international measure, and U.S. survey measure. The relationships between the different units within each measure is the same, but each measure has a slightly different definition in terms of metric units.

      One inch international measure is exactly 25.4 millimeters, while one inch U.S. survey measure is defined so that 39.37 inches is exactly 1 meter. For most applications, the difference is insignificant. (One international inch is exactly 0.999998 of a U.S. survey inch, for a difference of about 3 millimeters per mile). International measure is used for everyday use, engineering, and commerce in the United States, while survey measure is used only for surveying.

      The pound avoirdupois, which forms the basis of the U.S. customary system of mass, is defined as exactly 453.59237 grams. All the other units of mass are defined in terms of it.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units>

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    7. Re:Metric... by ari+wins · · Score: 1

      Greetings from West Michigan! I must say, we enjoy your hockey players!

      --
      Don't worry if you're a kleptomaniac, you can always take something for it.
    8. Re:Metric... by amper · · Score: 1

      No, no, we don't don't burn things at the stake anymore. That's barbaric!

      What we should do is drop it in a tank of holy water. If it sinks, that indicates that the holy water has "accepted" the metric system, and therefore it does not engage in witchcraft. If it floats, the holy water has rejected the metric system, indicating that it is suffused with evil black magic, and must therefore be destroyed utterly.

    9. Re:Metric... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually...

      U.S and Imperial measures are based on a French system (note: avoirdupois) and the Metric system was actually proposed by a Brit., but first implemented by the French.

      So its the other way around.

      [That statement always annoys the little islanders!]

    10. Re:Metric... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the metric system, which is touted as being so much more accurate than the measurements we here in the U.S. know and love is has a measurement that is based on a disappearing lump of metal?

      Yes, and your unit is defined as 0.45359237 such disappearing lumps of metal.

    11. Re:Metric... by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      It's not that it's more accurate, since US customary is based on metric. It's that unit conversion in metric does not cause you to go insane.

      There are sixteen ounces in a pound. There are sixteen fluid ounces in a pint. So everyone remembers "sixteen ounces" but not everyone understands the difference between ounces and fluid ounces. Smaller companies get this wrong often on food labels -- you'll see "32 oz." for a quart container, but the thing is sold by weight, and you know it's nowhere near two pounds.

      An Imperial pint is ~20 oz. In America, we call our units "English", which leads people to believe that they match the Imperial units, but they don't.

      All in all, the old systems are better for doing math in your head (12 can be divided by 2, 3, 4 and 6 easily) but are absolute crap for unit conversion, and conceptually are harder to deal with...in the US we often think "mass" but say "weight", and our frame of reference in these things is tied to a measure of acceleration. Unfortunately many people here don't like metric for aesthetic reasons, or what they perceive to be political ones. We are only holding ourselves back here.

    12. Re:Metric... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you are just trying to be funny, but I don't think "more accurate" has been an argument. It's just that SI units are much more easily convertible (i.e. compatible), plus are decimal-based (as opposed to 12 [... or something else]).
      Challenges with accuracy are pretty similar for metric and imperial systems.

    13. Re:Metric... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there is no better system so far. The power of SI units is not their origin (which for 1kg is 1dm^3 of water, btw) but consistency and convenience.

    14. Re:Metric... by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you're right. The pound is a measure of force, so it's mass * gravity when you're measuring an orange (for example). The equivalent unit in the imperial system to the kg is the slug, which is 1 pound / gravity (which I think is 16.4 ft/sec^2 in the imperial system)

      --

      -Bucky
  14. Has to be said... by naich · · Score: 1

    It sounds like a load of balls to me.

  15. Double Dupe by little1973 · · Score: 2, Informative
    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
    1. Re:Double Dupe by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not a dupe - a follow-up.

      The first article mentions only the weight loss of the original kilogram, the second article follows up on that mentioning a perfect sphere is going to be made. The current article follows up on that, announcing the actual creation of this sphere.

      Now the fourth article in this series should be the announcement of the number of silicon-28 atoms needed to create exactly one kilogram.

      On the other hand, isn't the exact mass of atoms known? Then it should be easy to say "this number of atoms is exactly one kilogram". The creation of the sphere being an exercise left to the reader.

    2. Re:Double Dupe by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, isn't the exact mass of atoms known? Then it should be easy to say "this number of atoms is exactly one kilogram". The creation of the sphere being an exercise left to the reader.


      The creation of the sphere can't be left as an exercise for the reader - as without a physical kilogram you can't actually use the definition to calibrate physical scales. Which is the whole point.

    3. Re:Double Dupe by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      As soon as one knows how many atoms go in a kg (the measuring of the atom weight is the tough part here), it's an easy calculation on how many atoms one needs to put that sphere together.

      The tough part seems to me indeed to get the exact mass of the atoms - and an extra problem being the difference between weight and mass. I wonder how they created the reference kg in the first place, to get to that kg. Lots of other things depend on it after all, it can't be a random quantity of material.

    4. Re:Double Dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      isn't the exact mass of atoms known?

      Compared to what?

      The whole point of this experiment is to allow us to compare several weights accurately.

    5. Re:Double Dupe by zoogies · · Score: 1

      As some others have said, defining the standard by "x number of atoms" is useless unless it is easily reproducible. (Which is what the scientists in the article are trying to do, make it easily producible).

    6. Re:Double Dupe by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      As soon as one knows how many atoms go in a kg (the measuring of the atom weight is the tough part here), it's an easy calculation on how many atoms one needs to put that sphere together.


      Certainly - but the hard and absolutely necessary part is then actually creating the sphere. The whole idea is to have a provable, repeatable, transferable central standard. Because it must be a physical standard, letting everyone create their own (no matter how rigid the specification) introduces the possibility of the standards diverging from each other.
       
       

      I wonder how they created the reference kg in the first place, to get to that kg. Lots of other things depend on it after all, it can't be a random quantity of material.


      The gram was defined in the early 19th century as (IIRC) 1 cubic centimeter of distilled water at a given temperature. Because of the effects of meniscus and surface tension, it proved essentially impossible to create a repeatable and transferable standard - so they created the (metal) Reference Kilogram, declared it to be the standard, and redefined the gram to be one thousandth of the Reference Kilogram. I'd guess they built a reference kilogram rather than a reference gram as it is far easier to make a precise large object than a precise small object.

  16. wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I guess silicone is the solution for everything that deforms. What? Oh, silicon...

  17. Their next project is more difficult by MiniMike · · Score: 1

    Next up for them is creating 10 perfect (but miniature) bowling pins. This is all part of a misguided effort to bowl a perfect 300 game. Have to applaud the effort though.

    Seriously, isn't this just a stopgap effort to mitigate some of the problems with the current standard? It sounds like the Watt balance technique mentioned in TFA is a much better idea. Hopefully the techniques used in the sphere effort can also be used elsewhere.

    1. Re:Their next project is more difficult by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I saw that in TFA (eye muss bee knew hear) and looked "watt balance" up on wikipedia.

      The watt balance is an experimental electromechanical apparatus that may one day provide a definition of the kilogram based on electronics.

      The watt balance is a more accurate version of the ampere balance, in which the force between two current-carrying coils is measured and then used to calculate the magnitude of the current. The principle of the watt balance was proposed by B. P. Kibble of the UK's National Physical Laboratory (NPL) in 1975.

      The main weakness of the ampere balance method is that the result depends on the accuracy with which the dimensions of the coils are measured. The watt balance method has an extra calibration step in which the effect of the geometry of the coils is eliminated, removing the main source of uncertainty. This extra step involves moving the force coil through a known magnetic flux at a known speed.

      The present accuracy record is held by NIST, the standards agency of the USA, with an error of 5.2 × 10-8, and experiments are continuing towards a goal of 1 × 10-8. The long-term goal of these experiments is to produce a new definition of the kilogram based on fundamental SI units, to replace the present definition based on the International Prototype Kilogram, a cylinder of platinum/iridium owned by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures.

      Unfortunately, the wikipedia article leaves me as ignorant as before. So I clicked through to Ampere balance

      The ampere balance (also current balance or Kelvin balance) is an electromechanical apparatus used for the precise measurement of the SI unit of electric current, the ampere. It was invented by William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin.

      The current to be measured is passed in series through two coils, and the magnetic force between the two coils is measured. This is used to calculate the magnitude of the current.

      Which unfortunately says practically nothing.

      Can anyone please explain this better to me? And if so, update the clear-as-mud wikipedia article? I might as well have looked it up on Uncyclopedia, which has no entries on watt balance or ampere balance at all.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    2. Re:Their next project is more difficult by Lostlander · · Score: 1

      Next up for them is creating 10 perfect (but miniature) bowling pins. This is all part of a misguided effort to bowl a perfect 300 game. Have to applaud the effort though.

      If this were the case wouldn't we also need a perfectly smooth and flat baseboard for the ball to roll down? Also it would all have to occur in a vacuum and be mechanically initiated. But again we still have the nature of the unpredictable directions in which all of the electrons will interact. So, in the end science still can't guarantee an absolutely perfect game.

    3. Re:Their next project is more difficult by srjh · · Score: 1

      Not sure at what step you're not understanding the problem (although I do admit that the wiki article needs work).

      Basically, a moving charge (say, electrons in a wire) induces a magnetic field. A moving charge in a magnetic field (say, electrons in another wire) will experience a force. So two current carrying wires will experience a force between them (attractive or repulsive, depending on which way the current flows).

      The ampere (unit of current) is defined in terms of what current it takes to produce a given force between two conductors. So if you precisely measure the current and the attractive force (and also the geometry of the system, which I think is the hard part), you get a definition for the newton (unit of force) from the ampere (unit of current). Since force is a unit derived from mass (needs defining, hence the discussion), the second (already defined), and the metre (also already defined), defining the newton defines the kilogram.

      Clear as mud?

    4. Re:Their next project is more difficult by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I think what I don't understand is how the curent can measure mass. I understand EMF, induction, how a coil works, etc but can't visualise exactly how you would weigh an object using nothing but electricity and coils.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    5. Re:Their next project is more difficult by srjh · · Score: 1

      This page probably explains it better than I can.

      You're really measuring the force, by measuring the current required to balance a mass.

  18. You Think Your Job Sucks? by Scumbumbo · · Score: 1

    It should be possible to count exactly the number of atoms in one of the roughly 9cm silicon spheres to define the unit.

    That has got to be the most tedious, boring job ever!

  19. When asked for her opinion.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pamela Andersen was not available for comment on the perfectly round silicon spheres.

  20. Ah Ha! Take that! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    So I'm not getting fatter, it's the kilogram that's getting slender!

    1. Re:Ah Ha! Take that! by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      My girlfriend has an eating disorder... maybe I should sue the holders of the reference mass for causing her to feel like she weighs more than she actually does!

  21. Off topic, but ... by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

    Personally - I'm trying to get everyone to convert to decimal time. under decimal time: 1 day = 10 hours 1 hour = 100 minutes 1 minute = 100 seconds That means a day would have 100,000 seconds, making each second equal to about 0.86 of the currently defined second. This would make my life much easier, although my wife might be dissapointed that I'd only be good for a little over 1 minute.

    1. Re:Off topic, but ... by Lostlander · · Score: 1

      although my wife might be dissapointed that I'd only be good for a little over 1 minute.

      I don't think that's related to the standard of time your on...

    2. Re:Off topic, but ... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Hours, minutes and seconds? Why go for a confusing reuse of names? Swatch Internet time has 1000 .beats in a day. Just use a decimal point for more precision.

    3. Re:Off topic, but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      swatch did something similar to that- they called it "internet time".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time

      their system also eliminates time zones.

  22. You know, roughly by intx13 · · Score: 5, Funny

    An international research group has created the most perfect spheres ever made, in a bid to pin down a definition of the kilogram. It should be possible to count exactly the number of atoms in one of the roughly 9cm silicon spheres to define the unit.

    "First we create a perfect sphere, then we count the number of atoms exactly - and we get a kilogram standard!"

    "Alright... so how big do we make this sphere?"

    "Oh you know.. roughly 9 cm, give or take."

  23. 1 KG == 1 of God's nuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Done.

    1. Re:1 KG == 1 of God's nuts by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that create a lot of divisions by zero?

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    2. Re:1 KG == 1 of God's nuts by Panaflex · · Score: 1

      That's why God invented Calculus?

      Heheheh

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
  24. Nope by Saffaya · · Score: 1

    I actually thought "Extremely high precision Inertial sensor", the kind that is put in space probes or satellites, since perfect spheres are required for the gyroscopes IIRC.

  25. just add water by krystar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    why not just define a kg as 1 Liter of pure H2O at 4deg C?....it is that way anyway.

    1. Re:just add water by amnezick · · Score: 0

      lucky me I read all the comments before I post. My thought exactly.

      I do have a question though: TFA says something about obtaining 2 pieces of 5kg each. How do they know it's 5kg while they're trying to figure out what a kg is?

      --
      mov ax,4c00h
      int 21h
    2. Re:just add water by pimpimpim · · Score: 2

      so the kg will change depending on the current atmospheric pressure?

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    3. Re:just add water by Shados · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because its 1 liter of pure h2o at 4 deg C -at the sea level-, (remember, pressure isn't the same at the top of a mountain than it is at the bottom...and it changes everything). It is also not universal... if the earth was to go boom, (and somehow live), we'd lose our reference.

      That is in opposition to, let say, a meter, which is a fraction of the distance light travels in a specific amount of time. Fairly universal. (I beleive it USED to be a fraction of the earth's size... which was quite bad too).

    4. Re:just add water by maxume · · Score: 1

      Probably because measuring the mass of 1kg of water separately from the container holding it is a pain in the ass. So is actually measuring out 1 liter of water.

      The spheres (if they work out to be uniform and consistently measurable) provide a convenient calibration mass.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:just add water by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      It is difficult to create this situation properly (actually measuring this would be hell), and you would have to define the pressure at which to measure at. And pressure is defined as kilograms over surface area. And so you have a circular definition. Ooops.

    6. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok, but we'll take the measurement in an open container on the moon...

    7. Re:just add water by Rural · · Score: 1

      It's nicer to have a standard based on something countable than just measurable. A second is defined as the duration of some number of Cesium vibrations. A kilogram would equivalent to the mass of a certain number of atoms in the proposed scheme, instead of equivalent to the mass of some prototype held in a safe.

    8. Re:just add water by Cormacus · · Score: 1

      Water is pretty close to being non-compressible.

      The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4000 m depth, where pressures are 4Ã--107 Pa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume. Wikipedia

      So the kilogram based on an H2O standard would not change (much) depending on the current atmospheric pressure.

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
    9. Re:just add water by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 1

      It is impossible to account for the H+ and OH- ions that are floating around in your liter of "pure" H2O, which will throw off the density of the liquid by a small, but non-trivial, amount.

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    10. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because counting individual silicon atoms is SOOOO much easier.

    11. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the exact scientific definition of a liter?

    12. Re:just add water by thebryce · · Score: 1

      why not just define a kg as 1 Liter of pure H2O at 4deg C?....it is that way anyway.

      One would probably run into the same problem of precisely defining what the liter is. We'd be back to counting molecules of water instead of atoms of silicon. Silicon atom count would probably be a better way to establish the kilogram on than molecules of liquid water (no evaporation, no sloshing about and losing a few drops here and there, etc...)

    13. Re:just add water by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Compression doesn't affect mass...

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    14. Re:just add water by Cormacus · · Score: 1

      Of course not. But it (compression) will effect a change in volume. And if your 1kg standard is based on a volume of water, then water's compressibility (as affected by atmospheric pressure) will change the amount of water that fits in your standard volume. This would effect a change in mass.

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
    15. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pressure is a force over an area, in the case of metric it is newtons per square meter.

    16. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because counting individual silicon atoms is SOOOO much easier.

      Yes it is, because they line up in neat little rows. The silicon here is one pure crystal. Water is a mess of activity. So, yes, counting silicon atoms is much easier and exactly why they are using it.

    17. Re:just add water by DaffyDuck101 · · Score: 1

      1 liter has always been 1 cubic decimeter. I'd say it's pretty well defined.

    18. Re:just add water by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 2, Funny

      if the earth was to go boom, (and somehow live), we'd lose our reference.

      I think in that case, we're gonna have other things to worry about than knowing the exact measurement of 1kg

      --
      Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
    19. Re:just add water by wwf · · Score: 1

      How about defining a kg as 1 Liter of pure liquid H2O at it's triple point? That takes care of the pressure variation.

    20. Re:just add water by Ardipithecus · · Score: 1

      STP?

    21. Re:just add water by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Oops, I thought we were talking about an existing standard. Obviously if you're creating a standard this would apply, but I was operating under the notion of a preexisting 1kg mass standard whose changes in volume due to pressure fluctuations aren't terribly important...

      In other words, a kg standard created at sea level will differ from a kg standard created at high altitude, but since water is relatively incompressible it'd be a small difference. Yes, true.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    22. Re:just add water by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      Water is pretty close to being non-compressible.

      So the kilogram based on an H2O standard would not change (much) depending on the current atmospheric pressure.

      You're just the kind of guy employee that is so highly wanted at an institute for standards! ;) Of course you are right, variations are small, but if the goal of the project is to get an ultra-precise definition of the KG, these variations are huge. Not to mention the fact that the water needs to have a precisely defined purity, content of gas(es), etc. etc..

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    23. Re:just add water by Shados · · Score: 1

      Just playing devil's advocate, but when defining the basic units (so stuff like volume and mass, but not speed) of measurements in the metric system except for time and universal constants (speed of light), aren't they actively trying to always keep the definition "pure", as in unrelated to the others? A kg has nothing to do with volume, yet you'd need to define the unit of volume first.

      I know in some cases there's no choice, but in THIS one, I feel like there is, and the scientists responsible for it probably feel that way too.

    24. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A liter is defined as 10^-3 m3... so kinda circular logic...

      And that's on top of varying air pressure, the fact that pure h2o doesn't exist (liquid water always has OH/H3O molecules in equilibrium), etc.

    25. Re:just add water by cnettel · · Score: 1

      The meter is defined from the second. If we could define mass properly from just distances, I think just about anyone would be all for it. However, it has not turned out to be easily doable.

    26. Re:just add water by RabidMoose · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the case in which we need the exact measurement of 1kg. So we can put an exact ammount of spaceship fuel© into our spaceship, and get the hell away from the planet.

    27. Re:just add water by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      that's why we invented standard conditions.

    28. Re:just add water by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      I'll count these tiles in this big square mosaic, and you count these loose tiles inside this sack.

      Also the sack will be constantly jiggled about.

    29. Re:just add water by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      IIRC, temperatures are notoriously difficult to measure/reproduce/etc. with high precision. You could probably only get five or six digits of precision out of a temperature measurement which in turn limits your kilogram precision, but we probably want upwards of 9 digits of precision in our kilogram.

    30. Re:just add water by stedo · · Score: 1

      So what's a newton? Last I heard, it was the force that could effect an acceleration of 1m/s/s on a 1 kilogram body.

    31. Re:just add water by g0at · · Score: 1

      That is in opposition to, let say, a meter, which is a fraction of the distance light travels in a specific amount of time.

      Actually, a meter is what you use to measure a metre. :)

    32. Re:just add water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at which pressure? correct me if i am wrong but 4degC at sea level has not the same effect as 4degC 100m higher.

    33. Re:just add water by vuo · · Score: 1

      Because you can't use a circular definition. You'd need to define standard conditions. And how? Temperature and pressure. Temperature is OK, but the unit of pressure, pascal, is defined as one newton per square meter. The unit newton is defined the force of one kilogram accelerating one meter per second squared. See the problem?

  26. Vague AC/DC Reference by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Funny

    Your balls may always rotate
    Deiseil or widdershins
    What matters is their smoothness
    Reflects what's on your chins.
    Burma Shave

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:Vague AC/DC Reference by Kirth · · Score: 1

      I know, because I've got big balls, she's got big balls, and we've got the biggest balls of them all.

      Ya know, balls, like "dancing events" or somesuch.

      --
      "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
    2. Re:Vague AC/DC Reference by Panaflex · · Score: 1

      We've got big balls in cowtown... for sure.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
  27. pi by oni · · Score: 3, Funny

    Does this also pin down the value of pi? I mean, they know exactly how many silicon atoms are on the surface of the sphere, and they know exactly how many atoms there are from the center to the surface.

    hmm.

    1. Re:pi by Deadstick · · Score: 1
      Does this also pin down the value of pi?

      Been done.

      rj

    2. Re:pi by Bromskloss · · Score: 1

      Does this also pin down the value of pi?

      No, it does not. Suppose you would get your value for pi by measuring diameter and circumference of the ball. Your accuracy would then be limited by both the accuracy of your two measurements and the fact that the ball will never be perfectly spherical anyway (since it is made out of atoms). You get much better accuracy with pure calculations since they do not have these physical limiataions.

      --
      Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    3. Re:pi by maxume · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Pi describes an idealized construction. Physical manifestations are imperfect to the extent that they don't match pi, not the other way around.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:pi by badpazzword · · Score: 1

      Calculating pi with this method could be a way to test the overall accuracy of the process, but there are easier and cheaper methods to calculate pi ;)

      For example, http://en.literateprograms.org/Pi_with_Machin's_formula_(Python)

      --
      When ideas fail, words become very handy.
    5. Re:pi by dosun88888 · · Score: 1

      Yeah - it's about 3.

    6. Re:pi by coren2000 · · Score: 1

      Pie are round. Scientists may tell you that Pie are square, but they are wrong.

      Trust me. Pie are round.

    7. Re:pi by realisticradical · · Score: 1
      Nope, but it doesn't matter.

      Going further into pi only gives you more precision on a smaller scale. Eventually You'll get far enough in that increased precision won't change anything because you'll be at a scale smaller than single atoms. It's not that far in either, an angstrom is 10e-10 m.

    8. Re:pi by Born2bwire · · Score: 1

      I believe that knowing pi to double precision is enough to measure down to the hydrogen atomic scale. So even extremely accurate measurements can only lead to a (relatively) rough estimate of pi.

    9. Re:pi by jmv · · Score: 1

      Yes, pi is defined to 3.1 at sea level.

    10. Re:pi by zobier · · Score: 1
      Thank you.

      Although it was my maths teacher that told me pie are square.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
    11. Re:pi by gkwok · · Score: 1

      No. Pi is a transcendental number, and transcendental numbers are a subset of irrational numbers, which by definition cannot be represented as a ratio of two integers. Pi = C/D, which in the case of this sphere are two finite integers. As another poster said, you're limited by the precision of the total number of atoms in your sphere. If you used a larger or smaller sphere, you'll get a different value of C/D.

  28. If its the perfect sphere... by Tekninja_Hawk · · Score: 0

    It should be able to play the perfect Skiball game.

  29. It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 4, Funny

    A kilogram is defined as exactly 2.20462262 pounds of pure water at pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) and a temperature of 273.15 K. :)

    1. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by ericrost · · Score: 1

      So how do you define a pound?

    2. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by rugatero · · Score: 1

      But a pound is defined relative to the Kilo, as agreed in 1958. (0.453 592 37)

      --
      This comment is for entertainment purposes only. Any similarity to real insight or information is purely coincidental.
    3. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's that wooshing noise?

    4. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      As any fule kno, it's the weight of one tenth of an (English) gallon. Of water.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by srjh · · Score: 1

      recursion, n.
      1. see recursion

      I like it...

    6. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by ericrost · · Score: 1

      And how do you define a gallon?

    7. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by gnick · · Score: 4, Funny

      So how do you define a pound?

      My driver's license (a legal document!) says that I weigh 185 lbs. So, 1 lb is defined as my weight divided by 185.

      Therefore, 1 kg = 2.20462262 * (1 gnick-weight) / 185. Was that so hard? A measurable quantity.

      The only problem I see is that I don't to live out my days on some shelf in France.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    8. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Daimanta · · Score: 1

      Take the weight of the current sovereign of the United Kingdom and divide it by 120. That's how the other Imperial measurements work really.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
    9. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Andy+Somnifac · · Score: 1

      10 kilograms of water?

    10. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by dedazo · · Score: 1

      I can see the girlfriend now...

      "crap, I gained 6 gnicks in the past month!!!! DO I LOOK FAT TO YOU DO I DO I DO I!!???"

      Mostly though that's just an excuse to go buy a new wardrobe on my dime...

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    11. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by gnick · · Score: 1

      Damn. If your girlfriend can put on 6 gnick's in 1 month - You're dating a really BIG woman. Let's see - 185 lbs * 6 = .... Wow.

      Sadly, I have a tough enough time finding women willing to put on 1 gnick for 1 night...

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    12. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by dedazo · · Score: 1

      Ha ha, my math is teh suck. Not, it's not that much. Surely I meant 0.006 gnicks... or something. God I hope she doesn't read Slashdot...

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    13. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A kilogram is defined as exactly 2.20462262 pounds of pure ice at pressure of 100 kPa (1 bar) and a temperature of 273.15 K. :)

      There, fixed that for you. :-)

    14. Re:It *is* based on measurable quantity... by Kentari · · Score: 1

      On the plus side, the days on that shelf will be short as they will make sure your body weight stays constant.

      I.e, nothing goes in or out...

      That includes air...

      Most humans don't last much longer than 5 minutes in such circumstances

      But it's a small price to provide science with a standard, isn't?

  30. I beg to differ by Rinisari · · Score: 3, Funny

    The roundescht object in the world isch your mother, Trebek.

  31. Accept it before it destroys you by Tonyrockyhorror · · Score: 1

    You mean George Michael's butt. Look at it!

  32. manufacturing problems by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well, it's sorta like this: a standard is only useful if you have some effective way to reproduce it or measure with it.

    1. time. You can essentially just make a MASER, which means basically a cavity which resonates at that frequency. The nice part is that it can be tuned, and even continuously tuned, by just measuring the amplitude of the signal. When you've reached the maximum power, the thing is tuned to that frequency.

    2. length. It's measured by Interferometry, so you have a meaningful way to transform a wavelength into any given distance.

    At any rate, the transition for these two only happened when someone build a device which could actually measure one second or one metre that way.

    3. mass. Well, that's the tricky one. Saying that you define a kilogram as one bazillion silicium atoms is useless unless you can somehow actually produce a lump with that many atoms. As long as we can't actually be sure how many atoms are in there, it would be a useless standard.

    These guys claim to have been able to do just that: say with a high degree of confidence that, yep, their spheres contain exactly that many atoms. If they're right, then we're finally ready to move the kilo to that standard.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:manufacturing problems by fermion · · Score: 1
      Just to add a bit, the problem with mass, as you have shown, is that the standard cannot be reproduced outside the labs tha currently own a kilogram standard. It is not so much that the standard changes over time, which is does, but that there is no real way of allowing labs to verify that are following the standard without going to a duplicate.

      My understanding is that this leads to issues of reproducibility. With time and length, labs can have a great deal of confidence that what they call a second and metre is the same as everyone else. With the kilogram it is less so. If there is a way to count the number of atoms for a particular ratio of isotopes, then this might help create a standard without circular references to other physical standards. Even if it is not perfect, it is not useless. The count of silicon atoms is going to be on the order of 10^26. The current standard for mass appears to be worse than 1 part in 1 billion, so as long as the count is at least that good, the standard is no worse than what is currently available, with the advantage of being portable. As far a counting those atoms, there are very precise means that are used to measure flux in surface science, and while I don't know if they can be used for bulk materials, I think it would at least be possible.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    2. Re:manufacturing problems by dwye · · Score: 1

      > 3. mass. Well, that's the tricky one.

      It was originally the mass of a cube, 10 centimeters on a side, of water. How difficult is it to reproduce that (maybe specifying at the triple point, and that all the water has to be protons, not deuterons, but otherwise)?

    3. Re:manufacturing problems by cnettel · · Score: 1

      At the very least, you need to specify pressure as well. The real problem is that for the precision needed here, the smoothness of the inner walls of that block is becoming a real problem. A perfect sphere of a solid as a roundabout way to give a constant number of atoms in fact seems simpler.

    4. Re:manufacturing problems by dwye · · Score: 1

      > At the very least, you need to specify pressure as well. Triple point specifies temperature (thus density) and pressure, together. OTOH, you may be right about the container problem. I assumed that one could make a microgram-sized sample, count, then scale up, more easily than a one kg sample of silicon, given that you CANNOT make a sphere, in reality, just approach it asymptotically. A perfect tetrahedron, perhaps, but not a sphere.

    5. Re:manufacturing problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You can essentially just make a MASER
      don't mase me, bro!

    6. Re:manufacturing problems by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Maybe mass could be defined in terms of bending light passing 1mm away x pico arc-seconds or something similar. Then just grind down your mass of lead or whatever until it does that :)

    7. Re:manufacturing problems by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm, well, if I remember physics at all, gravity would be an even bigger bitch to measure. Really, it's a very weak force. It only does anything measurable for _huge_ masses. You know, stars, planets, etc. The space curvature is observed around stars and the like. Measuring it around a 1 kilo sphere, well, you're probably worse off than counting atoms.

      Plus, if you think about it, it also doesn't help that we're already in a huge gravity well. So it's a bit like measuring the brightness of a lightbulb, near the Sun. At the very least, the measurement would be pretty darn anisotropic, so to speak.

      Plus, I'm guessing that even if you had the accuracy to measure the deviation around a 1 kilo sphere and somehow compensated for the Earth's gravity well, the table you're measuring it on weighs more. The building you're in weighs hundreds of tons. And depending on where you measure it, you might have a mountain nearby.

      Not saying it wouldn't be theoretically possible. Just pretty impractical at our tech level.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    8. Re:manufacturing problems by Plugh · · Score: 1

      it's a bit like measuring the brightness of a lightbulb, near the Sun. At the very least, the measurement would be pretty darn anisotropic

      You mean, "..would be pretty darn isotropic"

      Damn, I miss the time when slashdot was actually for geeks!

    9. Re:manufacturing problems by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      You mean, "..would be pretty darn isotropic"

      No, I mean anisotropic. As in, depending from which direction you measure your light bulb, the amound of background radiation won't be the same.

      Damn, I miss the time when slashdot was actually for geeks!

      Dunno about missing some particular point in time, but I _wish_ it was actually for geeks, and not for retards trolling with "OMG, you got a word wrong." But I guess some people really have no other claim to glory, than "look, I can handwave that there's someone between me and absolute zero." Says something about where they see themselves on that scale, eh?

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  33. Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by wooferhound · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think that Gravity Probe B has the most perfect spheres and they are much smaller that the Kilogram sphere.

    Kilogram Silicon Spheres
    "If you were to blow up our spheres to the size of the Earth, you would see a small ripple in the smoothness of about 12 to 15 mm, and a variation of only 3 to 5 metres in the roundness"

    Gravity Probe B Spheres
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html
    "If these ping pong-sized balls of fused quartz and silicon were the size of the Earth, the elevation of the entire surface would vary by no more than 12 feet"

    --
    We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
    1. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by vegiVamp · · Score: 0

      12 feet being 3 to 4 metres. Still a difference, true, but not all that much.

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    2. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by cnettel · · Score: 1
      The Earth is very, very, very far from round (relatively speaking), but that does not affect the elevation. The numbers you should be comparing are 12 feet versus 12 mm.

      As a reference, the equatorial radius of the Earth is 6378.1 km, the polar radius 6356.8 km, or 21300 m difference (which could be argued to be quite close to the deepest ocean floor and the highest mountain, but it's still a separate thing from measuring that elevation difference).

    3. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by omnichad · · Score: 1

      last time I checked, 12 mm is smaller than 12 feet.

    4. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by DirePickle · · Score: 3, Funny

      Okay, but are those metric or Imperial Earths?

    5. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      But one is a ping-pong ball the other is a bowling ball so they are being blown up by different amounts.

    6. Re:Gravity Probe B has more Perfect Spheres by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right - the Gravity Probe B spheres made at Stanford are listed in the Guiness Database of World records:
      http://einstein.stanford.edu/Library/images/Awards-Guinness.jpg [stanford.edu]

      "This means that, if scaled up to the size of Earth, the maximum height/depth of topographic features would be 1.5 m"

      Stanford spent a lot of time developing a machine to make perfect spheres that could have saved them the effort. They should have done their homework before wasting that poor guy's time hand polishing a sphere that's not quite the most perfect sphere...

  34. Based on? by biolysis · · Score: 1

    Would you care to explain how a system that was in existence BEFORE the metric system was devised is "based on"it?

    You and the post above yours seem to be confusing "is equivalent to" with "based on".

    1. Re:Based on? by maxume · · Score: 1

      "are now defined in terms of"

      At the moment, when the standard kilogram changes, so does the pound. The relationship is one sided, not equivalent.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Based on? by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      In the United States, the (avoirdupois) pound as a unit of mass has been officially defined in terms of the kilogram since the Mendenhall Order of 1893.

      In 1958 the United States and countries of the Commonwealth of Nations agreed upon common definitions for the pound and the yard. The international avoirdupois pound was defined as exactly 453.59237 grams.


      From the Wikipedia article posted elsewhere in the comments by realisticradical.

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
    3. Re:Based on? by odourpreventer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Would you care to explain how a system that was in existence BEFORE the metric system was devised is "based on"it?

      Easy. At some point in time some people decided to base the US system on the metric system. There was a time of course when the US system was standalone, but then came a situation when these people had to refine this system and they made the choice to base it on the metric one.

    4. Re:Based on? by Isaac-Lew · · Score: 2, Informative
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)#Avoirdupois_pound

      Quote:

      In the United States, the (avoirdupois) pound as a unit of mass has been officially defined in terms of the kilogram since the Mendenhall Order of 1893.

  35. no no no read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No mere human will never be able to accomplish what God did with scarlett johansson's ass.

  36. Changing Mass? by skirmish666 · · Score: 1

    "its mass is changing relative to copies held elsewhere"
    I've heard this before but no-ones been able to explain it to me. What exactly is happening to the mass of the platinum spheres and why?

    --
    Sigger than your average
    1. Re:Changing Mass? by Shados · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Its shrinking. Losing incredibly small pieces over long periods of times. No object can realistically stay -exactly- the same forever.

    2. Re:Changing Mass? by argent · · Score: 1

      The "hard ones" from Asimov's "The Gods Themselves" are stealing the Platinum to pawer their artificial suns.

    3. Re:Changing Mass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its shrinking. Losing incredibly small pieces over long periods of times. No object can realistically stay -exactly- the same forever.

      What about Dick Clark?

    4. Re:Changing Mass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about Dick Clark?

    5. Re:Changing Mass? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      perhaps platinums affinity for hydrogen is changing it's mass?

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
  37. I can't believe no one has posted this... by carlcmc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They should have visited this guy's website

    http://www.kyokyo-u.ac.jp/youkyou/4/english4.htm?

    making spherical mud balls. I've had this bookmarked in del.icio.us for a long time

    1. Re:I can't believe no one has posted this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's actually pretty cool.

  38. Not so perfect.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "If you were to blow up our spheres to the size of the Earth, you would see a small ripple in the smoothness of about 12 to 15 mm, and a variation of only 3 to 5 metres in the roundness,"

    Common only 5m accuracy??? Even GPS is better than that....

  39. But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Still not as round as Karl Pilkington's head...

  40. Now the measurement relies on a retiree by Phurge · · Score: 2, Interesting

    from TFA "To shape the spheres, the Australian Center for Precision Optics pulled optical engineer Achim Leistner out of retirement. Leistner, who has been creating precision spheres for decades, considers these final two to be his masterpieces"

    Great. What happens when this guy kicks the bucket?

    --
    I'll see your hokum and raise you a boondoggle.
  41. Is crystal growth really the reason why? by wisebabo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is this really the reason why it's a sphere? Crystals don't PRECISELY grow into a sphere do they? Won't they still need to shave or polish it to get it to the exact radius? And then they'll need to calculate the number of atoms using Pi, an irrational number!

    Why don't they make it a cube and find a length that is close enough (cubed) to give them the approx. right number of atoms and then make THAT the standard? They'll then have an EXACT number of atoms making up each length. It should be easier to cut or shave off the requisite number of atoms to maintain it, a (perfectly) flat surface seems much easier to maintain than a 3D curved surface. In fact if they make it just a little too small they could probably even ADD to the cube in single atomic layers using vapor deposition!

    Obviously brighter minds than mine have thought this through more thoroughly, so really, I'm curious: why is it a sphere?

    By the way, maybe this is a good use for the ISS, to keep the 1kg reference MASS somewhere it won't be distorted by gravity, not kept at any particular country for measurement and you can keep it in a high quality vacuum for free! (A little expensive to get to though).

    1. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      This isn't going to be a reference mass; the idea is to make this the same weight as the old platinum reference mass (or the weight the platinum mass was, or whatever), compute the number of silicon atoms it contains, then define the kilogram as "the mass of a sphere containing[x] atoms of silicon-28."
      It's the same idea as the conversion of the metre from "two marks on a platinum-iridium bar" (which is what the metre became when it was discovered they'd gotten the Equator/North Pole distance measurement wrong) to the distance travelled by light in whatever minute fraction of a second it is. The kilogram is the holdout basic SI unit not defined in "universal constants."

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
    2. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by srjh · · Score: 3, Informative

      They are measuring the sphere using interferometry - not possible with a cube.

      I'm not sure if you were being facetious or not when you were talking about pi being irrational, but its value is known to billions of decimal places. I doubt it will introduce any additional uncertainty.

    3. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the mass of a sphere containing (x) atoms of silicon-28 isn't the same as the mass of (insert favorite shape here) containing (x) atoms of silicon-28, we've got problems...

    4. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the way, maybe this is a good use for the ISS, to keep the 1kg reference MASS somewhere it won't be distorted by gravity, not kept at any particular country for measurement and you can keep it in a high quality vacuum for free! (A little expensive to get to though).

      Yeah, and when you need to check how much is a kilogram, you just weight it on the ISS's scale!

    5. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by wisebabo · · Score: 1

      I assume this is a joke but just in case it isn't please note that I emphasized the word MASS. That's because they are not using this object to define an object's weight (that would be in Newtons) but rather it's mass. To use it to compare against another object you could use any sort of device like springs or centrifuges. You would see if the same amount of force on the two objects produced the same amount of acceleration or if the same amount of acceleration required the same amount of force. (M=F/A).

      Of course if you were really ambitious you could convert the objects totally to energy and measure that! (M=E/C^2).

    6. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't they make it a cube

      As and added bonus, if they make it a cube they won't end up having to feel around behind the shelves for where the international standard for the kilogram rolled off to...

    7. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by ArcaneLord · · Score: 0

      A sphere has the minimum surface area for a given volume, therefore the least interaction with its environment. Atoms get knocked off the surface, which changes the total number of atoms in the item, so they are trying to minimize that change over time by creating a sphere.

    8. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's a lot easier to create and maintain a sphere than it is to create a cube.

      Cubes have corners that can chip, cubes have sides that can be non-parallel. Cutting a cube requires you create 6 perfect surfaces.

      Spheres only require 1 surface, and that can be easily measured to determine it's physical properties.

    9. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      This isn't going to be a reference mass; the idea is to make this the same weight as the old platinum reference mass (or the weight the platinum mass was, or whatever), compute the number of silicon atoms it contains, then define the kilogram as "the mass of a sphere containing[x] atoms of silicon-28."

      I'm not sure how well this is going to work. Let's say they've got the sphere milled down to almost-but-not quite the mass of the kg reference. Say it is a little on the high side. So they need to mill it down just slightly. What if the difference between the sphere's mass and the reference mass is less than the mass of the atoms forming the surface of the sphere? When they mill them away, the sphere will be less than the kg reference, and they've got the same problem in reverse.

      I guess it depends on how accurately they can compare masses.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    10. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would imagine the problem with a cube is in characterizing the error of the surface.

      The surface of a sphere is uniform everywhere but with a cube you have to measure variations in each of 6 faces, 12 edges, and 8 corners.

      You would also need to exactly measure the angle of each edge...

      As for being based on Pi... keep in mind that we know the value of Pi very, very well.
      We need maybe the first 30 digits to calculate the exact number of atoms in these spheres.
      Last time I checked the record for calculating Pi was around 12 trillion digits.

    11. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      (",)
      True. Perhaps the SI definition will eliminate the " a sphere containing" phrase. But it is, as previously noted, the shape most easily checked.

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
    12. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by John+Meacham · · Score: 1

      This is actually true. Potential energy is mass. This means that (endothermic) chemical bonds actually decrease the mass relative to the components of the bond. However much energy it takes to break that bond is the amount of mass difference. This is analogous to the way nuclear bombs work, if you count the neutrons/protons/electrons after a nuclear decay, you end up with the same number as are in the original atom. but a whole lot of energy was released. that energy is the energy of the nuclear force that was holding the nucleus together. since those forces contain so much more energy than the chemical bonding forces, more mass is lost, more energy is produced.

      Presumably different shapes will have different numbers of chemical bonds. i.e. different masses.

      --
      http://notanumber.net/
    13. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cube corners will get chipped off.

    14. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      And then they'll need to calculate the number of atoms using Pi, an irrational number!

      Could be worse. They could have used Chaitin's constant.

    15. Re:Is crystal growth really the reason why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spheres lack fragile edges and corners. They also can be spun around any axis and tiny variations measured as a signal that repeats with the period of the rotation, allowing differences from an ideal sphere to be characterized extremely accurately. Vapor deposition works just as well on spheres as on cubes...arguably better, since it would not be hard to make an imperfect sphere more spherical, but laying down a perfectly flat layer on any side of a cube while keeping the edges perfect is likely extremely difficult. And irrational or not, pi is known to trillions of digits, far more than is necessary or useful.

  42. Time for a new slogan... by dark-br · · Score: 1

    Slashdot. News for the amnesiac. Stuff that mattered.

  43. They ARE equivalent by biolysis · · Score: 1


    Main Entry:
            equivalent Listen to the pronunciation of equivalent
    "Pronunciation:
            \-lnt\
    Function:
            adjective
    Etymology:
            Middle English, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French, from Late Latin aequivalent-, aequivalens, present participle of aequivalre to have equal power, from Latin aequi- + valre to be strong -- more at wield
    Date:
            15th century

    1: equal in force, amount, or value; "

    Next time, get a dictionary when you try to argue, that way you won't be wrong again.

    1. Re:They ARE equivalent by maxume · · Score: 1

      1 pound is exactly 0.45359237 kilograms.

      1 kilogram is approximately 2.20462262185 pounds.

      You can't take a pound and get an exact number of kilograms (especially from a legal perspective). You can go the other way.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:They ARE equivalent by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      1 pound is exactly 0.45359237 kilograms.

      1 kilogram is approximately 2.20462262185 pounds.

      You can't take a pound and get an exact number of kilograms (especially from a legal perspective). You can go the other way.

      Um, that's nonsensical. If 1 pound is exactly 0.45359237 kilograms, then 1 kilogram is exactly 1/0.45359237 pounds. If what you're trying to say is its not as easy to write it using decimal notation, you might have a point, but if you can take a pound that get an exact number of kilograms, it necessarily follows that you can take a kilogram and get an exact number of pounds. It will be a real, rational, and expressible value, although it might be a repeating decimal.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    3. Re:They ARE equivalent by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      In other words, the value of the kilogram defines the value of the pound.

      Which is what he was saying to start with.

    4. Re:They ARE equivalent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't take a pound and get an exact number of kilograms (especially from a legal perspective). You can go the other way.

      What you mean is you can't represent the value as a single non-repeating base-10 decimal number. If you were to represent the value in base-45359237 it would work out perfectly (2.00000001).

  44. That doesn't answer my question by biolysis · · Score: 1

    I read that article before I posted, and all you did was demonstrate that I was right, they are equivalent. That a pound equals a certain amount of grams is intended to show what exactly? It always equaled some amount of grams, stating so has nothing to do with my question.

    You did not answer my question, and you did not prove your point.

    1. Re:That doesn't answer my question by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      Sorry.
      The important part is the "defined": since 1893, the unit at the base of American Standard mass has been defined in terms of the kilogram; without the kilogram, it's now meaningless. Is that any better explained?

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
    2. Re:That doesn't answer my question by biolysis · · Score: 1

      Yes, that was, and thank you. Also, someone else pointed me to the exact part of the text that applies.

    3. Re:That doesn't answer my question by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      Great. Glad to see I've not lost ALL comprehensibility. (",)

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
  45. it's all relative... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought in the relativity era mass was actually defined in electron volts - is this not the mass equivilent to definig time by Cs 133 oscillations?

  46. This is probably a really stupid question... by entmike · · Score: 1

    Why does it have to be a sphere? I'd think a cube would be much easier to make (and measure)?

  47. You said that already by biolysis · · Score: 1

    "Easy. At some point in time some people decided to base the US system on the metric system."

    You said that already, restating it doesn't answer my question.

    1. Re:You said that already by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 2, Funny

      The pound is the kilogram's bitch. When the kg says bend over, the lb presents it's tight little ass for a pounding.

      The pound is no more equivalent to the kilogram than Disney dollars are equivalent to US dollars.

  48. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  49. What is your point, that is not equvalence by biolysis · · Score: 1

    "You can't take a pound and get an exact number of kilograms (especially from a legal perspective)."

    Which has nothing to do with equivalent. More to point, equivalence doesn't rquire "an exact number" of anything.

    Have a nice day.

    1. Re:What is your point, that is not equvalence by maxume · · Score: 0

      You can't exactly express a certain number of pounds as kilograms. There is no metric equivalent to 10 pounds. The mass is 10 pounds no matter how you slice it or dice it, but the expressions of the mass in the different systems have different values (the metric value would be less precise). Going the other way, measuring 1 kilogram and converting into pounds results in values that are exactly the same.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  50. Precisely, roughly, about a kilo. by Memetic · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...has created the most perfect spheres ever made...

    ...roughly 9cm...

    That precise eh?

  51. Thank you by biolysis · · Score: 1

    That is exactly what I was looking for.

    Too many people think that defining equivalence is the same as basing the number on the kilo.

  52. You said that already by biolysis · · Score: 1

    And it still has nothing to do with equivalent. Again, equivalence doesn't require "an exact number" of anything, I don't know why you think that applies at all.

    Have a nice day.

  53. Dept. of not gettin' any... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you were a theoretical physics student, you'd probably assume boobs were spheres.

  54. Holy guacamole! by edittard · · Score: 1

    an international team called the Avogadro Project

    Avogadros aren't even remotely spherical, more sort of pear shaped.

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    1. Re:Holy guacamole! by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Actually, another name for Avogadros is alligator pear.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  55. Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depends. Actually, no "perfectly round" object (made of atoms) can exist anywhere, only an approximation, but I guess that you mean deformation, in which case my answer is: Depends, on the method of creation (including material and build process). But of course it would be nice to store the ball (in case gravity deformations are showing on a ball of silicone, maybe they're also negligible) on a space station/satellite without artificial gravity.

    1. Re:Depends by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      on a space station/satellite without artificial gravity.

      So glad you specified that, wouldn't want someone to think you meant the ones with that artificial gravity that we have invented.

  56. Scotchlite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    3M [formerly Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing] beat them to it, about 50 years ago. Scotchlite (TM) reflective material (featured in traffic signs, etc.) is made by spraying molten glass through nozzles into the top of a tall tank. The fine droplets of the spray (about 0.1mm) form spheres that harden as they fall.

  57. Energy is Rounder than Matter by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Why make these standard unit samples out of matter at all? A single sample of matter is going to be irregular, and it's going to change over time. Why not make them all samples of energy, which is much more consistent in its state? E = mc^2 is a simple conversion for the matter equivalents, even if the equivalent matter is nanoscopic or smaller - we can also easily multiple by powers of 10.

    As for "roundness", matter is even worse in that measure. "Round" and "straight" are idealized qualities that matter does not possess. Again, energy is much more consistent, as in its inverse square law that can be measured as "round" to a much higher precision than knobby, crude matter.

    Why do we have a simple, metric and relativistic physics, if we can't refer to it as the basis of that physics?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Energy is Rounder than Matter by srjh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's actually the reasoning behind the Watt Balance another potential method for defining the kilogram.

      Keep in mind that the Joule is a composite SI unit, and is itself dependent on the mass of the kilogram. Unless you can calibrate the energy measurements (exactly what they are trying to do) you end up with a circular definition.

    2. Re:Energy is Rounder than Matter by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      Because of engineering reasons mostly. We could define a kilogram to be X many photons that have the same wavelength as the hyper-fine hydrogen emission or whatever. But unless you've got a machine that can count out exactly that many photons and withstand the Hiroshima magnitude energies of those photons just long enough to either convert them into mass or weigh them against another mass, it won't work as a standard.

      In theory there at lots of theoretical definitions of the kilogram that would work just fine. (E.g. according to general relativity G = 8*pi*T where T is the mass and G is the curvature (this is a simplification) so we could define the kilogram by the amount of spatial curvature it causes.) But in practice, most of the definitions are impractical because either we don't have the engineering technology to do the measurements or the measurements don't have enough precision in them (we need upwards of 9 digits of precision).

    3. Re:Energy is Rounder than Matter by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      All the definitions are "circular": they're self consistent references among the spacetime/matter-energy equivalence. Calibration starts at some arbitrary point that's different because we can consistently measure it. At these fine scales, matter is inconsistent, however we measure it. Energy is more consistent, though we need better engineering for our measurements to be more consistent. That Watt Balance approach, or another with that attitude, is the way to go.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    4. Re:Energy is Rounder than Matter by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      UC San Diego was building a "SET" device that could count individual photons. I wonder what happened to it: the most sensitive sensor ever made, reaching that discrete sampling precision with accuracy, would be fundamentally valuable to all science. Not to mention a great game controller :).

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  58. A cubes edges might chip easily by spineboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For the specification they are trying to achieve, even a little chip from a corner would be a tremendous error. It's a lot tougher to damage a sphere that way. Of course you can damage both from dropping them.

    I too think eventually this physical weight will be replaced by a known voltage/wattage on a scale to counteract a force, although for practicality purposes, having a physical object is probably much easier to use in daily situations.

    --
    ..........FULL STOP.
    1. Re:A cubes edges might chip easily by rocketman768 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and the edges would be the sharpest objects ever made by man if they were made with the extreme precision required for this job. About pi...we have calculated billions of digits for pi. The number of atoms will have a certain number of sig figs, so just calculate pi out to the same number of sig figs and (so called) problem averted.

    2. Re:A cubes edges might chip easily by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 0

      >Exactly, and the edges would be the sharpest objects ever made by man if they were made with the
      >extreme precision required for this job.

      Not really. Obsidian surgical blades have that distinction, what with monomolecular edges and all.

  59. Define Avogadro instead by photonic · · Score: 1
    As already explained by others, the goal of this research is to make a shiny ball, count its number of atoms using x-ray diffraction and other techniques and then calibrate it as good as possible against the kilo in Paris. This yields the number of silicon atoms in a kilo, but with an uncertainty given by the current kilo. The last step is to pick a random number within the error bars and define this to be the new definition of the kilo.

    There was a very nice article in American Scientist, which suggested that instead of defining this number of atoms, you could define the constant of Avogadro instead. Since this is linked to the gram via the weight of a carbon atom, this definition is equivalent. Since you are free to pick any number within the error bars of the current definition, they suggest to pick a nice number instead, just like the speed of light was defined as an integer. Their funny requirement was that it should be a perfect cube, since this would define one mole as a cube with an integer number of atoms on its side. This leaves essentially only one number: define N_A as the third power of 84.446.888!

    --
    karma police: arrest this man, he talks in maths; he buzzes like a fridge, he's like a detuned radio. [radiohead]
    1. Re:Define Avogadro instead by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      And the argument against the sphere: Can one have a multiple of PI atoms? Nope. Only whole numbers please.

      Because of Carbon, a cube would make perfect sense, along with being able to verify the third root and the quadratic relating to the lattice structure.

      --
  60. These guys need to get out more by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    And I thought some gamer types were weird.

  61. Why spheres? by ridgecritter · · Score: 1

    Why not some regular prismatic solid, whose flat surfaces would (I speculate) be easier to make? The dimensions would be measurable using interferometry just as with the spheres, ditto with X-ray for lattice parameters.

  62. Most Perfect... by rocketPack · · Score: 1

    ...is most definitely an absolute adjective... Come on, you make this most easiest.

  63. Sphere has minimum surface area to volume ratio by John.P.Jones · · Score: 1

    The current standard kilogram is a cylinder with equal height and diameter, this minimizes the surface area / volume ratio (within the world of cylinders). The new standard takes this one step further by venturing outside of the universe of cylinders.

  64. Metric system by slapout · · Score: 0

    I never liked the metric system. Oh, sure it's all based on tens and is good for science, but I find the English system more practical.

    There's no metric unit that's close to feet. Either you've got a lot of centimeters or parts of a meter.

    And say I want to measure something. According to the standard a meter is the distance light travels in a vacuum during 1/299,792,458 of a second. How am I suppose to measure something with that? Put it in a vacuum and see how many seconds it takes light to get from one end to the other?

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    1. Re:Metric system by SithLordOfLanc · · Score: 1

      A decimeter is about 4 inches. Does that help?

    2. Re:Metric system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How am I suppose to measure something with that?

      A damn sight more polite than digging up some dead king and measuring your ruler against his bodily proportions. And he has probably changed a bit since he died.

  65. Wait a minute, that's the ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... lochnar!

  66. Oblig. Princess Bride quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage yours.

  67. Exact composition of kilogram prototype by Westmalle · · Score: 1

    Just a small correction, the kilogram is defined by a platinum-*iridium* alloy artifact. The addition of iridium was important to guarantee the best possible stability

  68. Is this really helpful? by tt465857 · · Score: 1

    From the article:

    But even if all of the Avogadro Project's research teams arrive at the same number of silicon atoms in each sphere, it's far from clear that the International Committee for Weights and Measures will take up their definition.

    That's because some metrologists believe the Avogadro Project's precision spheres may simply replace one ailing physical standard with another. They support a competing approach called the watt balance, which would redefine the kilogram in terms of magnetic fields and electrical forces.

    The problem with defining the kilogram as the mass some arbitrary physical object is that all the measurement equipment in the world has to be calibrated and traceable to that object. If a non-physical standard could be developed, we could one day have extremely accurate balances that self-calibrate using that standard.

    1. Re:Is this really helpful? by srjh · · Score: 1

      The problem with defining the kilogram as the mass some arbitrary physical object is that all the measurement equipment in the world has to be calibrated and traceable to that object. If a non-physical standard could be developed, we could one day have extremely accurate balances that self-calibrate using that standard.

      This is actually what they are trying to overcome - the platinum kilogram prototype is obviously a poor choice for reproducibility.

      But if one of these Silicon spheres is destroyed, the definition is still reproducible. You just need to recreate a pure Silicon-28 sphere of the same size. The metre is already defined exactly in terms of the speed of light and the second, so you know exactly how big to make the replacement sphere.

      Actually, it doesn't have to be exactly the same size, you just have to know the new size and be able to correct for that change accordingly.

  69. And you call yourself a man! by Serenissima · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If all women had scientifically 'perfect' breasts then those perfect breasts would get pretty boring


    Where has your penis gone? Breasts getting boring? What kind of silly, nonsensical, jibber-jabber is that?

    Breasts NEVER get boring! I love my wife's breasts as much today as the day I married here!

    Actually, come to think of it, it'd be pretty awesome for all women to have the same sized breasts. That's a whole level of insecurity that men wouldn't have to deal with any longer.

    --
    Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. But light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:And you call yourself a man! by somersault · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I mean from a purely physical point of view, the world is a lot more interesting (though sadly sometimes in a negative way, as you point out) because of physical differences. I find amusement in different breast shapes. I'm sure I'd be happy with one set of breasts attached to a special someone, but while I'm single I can honestly say that I quite enjoy the variety!

      I'm sure you do love your wife's breasts, but that is presumably mostly because they are a part of your wife and you love her. They also are 'your' personal set of breasts so aesthetically you will also come to find them even more pleasing because of this.

      People subconsciously come to prefer things that they own - they tested it on people with short term memory loss, getting them to rate some paintings on an aesthetic scale, then 'gave' them one of the paintings, came back later when the people had forgotten about the whole thing, and then asked them again to rate the paintings, and people rated the ones they were given as higher than before. I can't find a reference for this (I have a feeling it was in Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising but despite that being about the human brain I'm not sure how it fits into that context, so maybe I read it elsewhere), so take it with a pinch of salt if you will.

      Personally I can vouch for that theory though, as I never used to find medium-smaller breasts interesting until I went out with someone who had fairly small breasts. Yes, she had a freakin awesome ass, but I learned to love her breasts too. I also tend to find women more attractive if I like their personality, and consider even good looking women to be 'ugly' overall if they are evil bitches.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:And you call yourself a man! by RabidMoose · · Score: 1

      I also tend to find women more attractive if I like their personality, and consider even good looking women to be 'ugly' overall if they are evil bitches.

      Can we get a pole up, so we can get numbers to prove to the US television industry that evil bitches are not attractive, and shouldn't be given/star in TV shows? (I'm looking at you; The Hills, Tila Tequila, Real World, etc etc).

    3. Re:And you call yourself a man! by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 1

      I believe the test you're referring to was discussed in something like The Economist or the New York Times. It was a pretty popular article that got linked from a bunch of places in the last couple of months. Sadly I cannot seem to find it through Google either, but the topic was photography. People did a photography class but then were only allowed to take one picture home, one group were forced to switch it later, another did not.

    4. Re:And you call yourself a man! by Now.Imperfect · · Score: 1

      Someone mod this man insightful "Actually, come to think of it, it'd be pretty awesome for all women to have the same sized breasts. That's a whole level of insecurity that men wouldn't have to deal with any longer." this is one of the most intelligent ideas EVER

    5. Re:And you call yourself a man! by copdk4 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dan Gilbert did this experiment - its described his book Stumbling on Happiness. Here is the NYtimes article. In this video, he describes the theory of Choice Paralysis

      The theory in short means we all think that "Breasts of my wife GREAT! All others suck! " (except Tina Fey.. and Natalie Portman and.. Penelope Cruz)

    6. Re:And you call yourself a man! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always found that argument a bit weird. Isn't everyone having two legs boring as well??

    7. Re:And you call yourself a man! by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Can we get a pole up, so we can get numbers to prove to the US television industry that evil bitches are not attractive, and shouldn't be given/star in TV shows?

      Sadly, I think they are hired because for many guys it does get their pole up. I suppose we could have a poll on that though.
       

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    8. Re:And you call yourself a man! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      evil bitches are not attractive

      Huh?!

    9. Re:And you call yourself a man! by somersault · · Score: 1

      I suppose I should qualify evil with "selfish whiny and stuck up" rather than sadistic, which is just hawt.[/masochism]

      --
      which is totally what she said
    10. Re:And you call yourself a man! by somersault · · Score: 1

      Yep I think I must have been getting two experiments mixed up. I think they must have been both in the same chapter as they are kind of related - I'm sure there was one with short term memory loss patients being shown paintings and rating them just to prove the concept of a person's aesthetic tastes actually changing to prefer things that they already have, rather than it just being an entirely 'false happiness' as some could say about the photographs experiment. It is 'false' in a way, but it leads to real happiness.

      I can't remember the exact experiment for the photographs, but I don't think that they were forced to switch. I think that one group was given the choice of which picture to take (I think one group may have had the choice to change it later if they wished, can't remember), and another group were just given their second favourite (or whatever) picture. The group that didn't have a choice ended up liking the picture they received even more, while the ones that had the choice kept wondering if they had made the right one, and ended up being less happy about the picture that they had taken. I know that was definitely the result even if I can't remember the actual experiment!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    11. Re:And you call yourself a man! by somersault · · Score: 1

      If all legs were exactly the same, then yes legs wouldn't be so sexy. Always walking everywhere can be quite boring too sometimes, believe me, so sometimes it's nice to use wheels, wings, rotors, impellers, whatever.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  70. Simple by readin · · Score: 3, Funny

    Just define the KG in terms of pounds at 1 G. Do Americans have to solve all of France's problems for them?

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  71. Call yourself nerds? by Alpha+Whisky · · Score: 1

    I don't know, 260 posts about silicon spheres and no one has mentioned Horta eggs. Kids these days, now get off my lawn.

    --
    it's = it is

    its = belonging to it

    1. Re:Call yourself nerds? by boristdog · · Score: 1

      You've just learned the difference between Star Trek nerds and Slashdot nerds.

      The words "silicon" and "round" make Slashdot nerds think of breasts.
      In the old Star Trek days, breasts were pointy. So true old school Star Trek nerds think horta eggs when they hear these words.

    2. Re:Call yourself nerds? by Alpha+Whisky · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm, pointy.

      --
      it's = it is

      its = belonging to it

  72. Help Me Internet Physicist... by barfy · · Score: 1

    I have two questions...

    1. If these two spheres are touching each other, how many atoms from each sphere are "touching?"

    2. At the touching edge, what is the difference to the touching atom, from the one side where it is "touching" to the other side which is part of its own sphere?

    1. Re:Help Me Internet Physicist... by JSBiff · · Score: 2, Informative

      I hope someone with more knowledge than I do answers, but I'll try to give my best answer, from the understanding I've gleaned so far from my Engineering Physics courses at the University I'm attending. . .

      I think, at an atomic level, atoms don't actually touch. When they get close enough, I think the internal atomic forces cause them to repel each other based upon field-forces (field forces are things like magnetism, or gravity, where no contact is required for things to act upon each other), or, for some elements, start sharing electrons and form lattices/grids of evenly spaced atoms (and, again, the grid spacing is determined by a balancing of repelling and attracting field forces, I think). This is definitely an area of physics I want to learn more about, and like I said, I hope someone who truly knows the answer will comment, but that's my best answer.

    2. Re:Help Me Internet Physicist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Problem being that if the balls were touching - well, it would be gay. Consequently, the answer is unimportant.

    3. Re:Help Me Internet Physicist... by mdmkolbe · · Score: 2, Informative

      This answer is mostly correct, but it should be noted that the primary force that keeps atoms apart is the electromagnetic force. At large distances an atom appears neutral being made up of an equal number of positive and negative charges. However since the negative charges (i.e. electrons) are on the outside and the positive charges are on the inside (i.e. protons), when atoms get close to each other the repulsive force between the negative charges is over a shorter distance and is thus stronger than the canceling out attractive force between the positive and negative charges. (Disclaimer: This ignores quantum effects which paint a slightly different picture.)

      Two silicon atoms that are in the same sphere will be sharing a metallic (?) bond which means they will be sharing electrons. Silicons atoms in different spheres won't be sharing electrons.

      Finally, I suspect that the two spheres will deform slightly where they touch so more than one atom will be "touching". It would look about like if you were push two rubber balls together, except the physics might be totally different (I am not a rubber expert).

  73. Round by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, that sure is one round sphere. Golly gee whiz, what an important milestone!

  74. Indian Temple Art by saudadelinux · · Score: 1

    I immediately thought of the sculpture, paintings and drawing of Hindu goddesses.

    They are totally stacked.

    Does this mean I'm tolerant of other faiths, appreciative of classical art of other cultures...or just a perv?

    --
    I didn't think the house band in Hell would play this badly.
  75. How much more round could it be? by boristdog · · Score: 4, Funny

    The answer is none.
    None more round.

  76. More 90's references by philspear · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    ... DEEZ NUTS!

    Sorry sorry sorry, I'll go write "I will not talk about my nuts" 500 times on the chalkboard now.

  77. Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by mangu · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think the reason why they made it a sphere is because a sphere is defined by one parameter only, its diameter. To make a perfect sphere all you need is to make sure it has exactly the same curvature everywhere. Now, let's see what it takes to make a perfect cube:


    1) each of its six faces must be perfectly plane

    2) each of its twelve edges must have exactly the same length

    3) each of its twelve angles must be exactly ninety degrees


    Just to illustrate how difficult this is, I once read this anecdote about Wernher von Braun: when going through his mechanical engineering course in Germany, one of the professors gave each student an irregular lump of iron. The assignment would be to create a cube, as perfect as possible, from that lump. The size of the resulting cube didn't matter but, naturally, if it was a very small cube it meant the student had a tough job getting it right.

    1. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To make a perfect sphere all you need is to make sure it has exactly the same curvature everywhere.

      This turns out to be extremely difficult to do and to validate. To set up to make a cube, you mostly need to make sure you have a tool that moves on one axis with high precision, and all of the measures are planar. Straight lines are easy. To make a sphere, you need to move on at least two perfect arcs and you need to validate each point on the entire surface of the nominal sphere for tangent in two directions or position in 3-space. It's hard enough just to tell whether a hole is really round, never mind whether there's a minute flat spot on a sphere.

    2. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by mangu · · Score: 1

      It's hard enough just to tell whether a hole is really round, never mind whether there's a minute flat spot on a sphere.


      Yes, but the question is not to detect a minute flat spot on a sphere, just as it is not to detect a minute non-flat spot on a cube. The problem is to detect an overall deviation from a desired shape. To detect if a sphere isn't spherical it's enough to check if any spot deviates from the desired radius, but to detect if a cube isn't cubical you have to check for *THREE* different parameters for each spot.

    3. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Doesn't seem all that hard to me. You need a pair of lasers and a way of detecting when the lasers touch the sphere. Make the lasers parallel to each other at a distance controlled by a high-precision linear motor. The lasers fire continuously, and the laser assembly can move along an X axis and rotate around or move along a Z axis relative to the sphere.

      Move the lasers approximately half-way down the sphere and center the sphere between them by bringing the lasers together until they both touch, then pulling the lasers apart until only one touches, then adjusting the sphere relative to the lasers so that both touch, wash rinse and repeat. The sphere is now centered on the X axis. Rotate the laser assembly 90 deg around the Z axis and center the sphere on the Y axis.

      Since the sphere is now centered, you can find its diameter by moving the lasers down and increasing their separation until they pass the equator and no longer touch the sphere.

      Now, you know mathematically what the sphere should look like. You can test the curvature to the limits of your linear motors' precision by running the lasers in a spiral pattern around and down the Z axis, adjusting the laser's separation by the mathematical curvature. If the diameter of the slice being measured doesn't lie within tolerances of what it ought to be, the sphere is imperfectly curved. Check the tolerances by running the lasers from an arbitrary position, first just barely touching, then just barely not touching, the surface of the sphere. As you run the lasers around the sphere, if they touch when they initially didn't, or stop touching when they initially did, you've exceeded tolerances.

      Now, reorient the sphere and do the same thing to measure the curvature of any coverage gaps (like at the very bottom of the sphere where it is resting on something).

      This is all with one device. You can take a multimodal approach by maybe using calipers or displacement volume or whatever to get additional measurements.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    4. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by hankwang · · Score: 3, Informative

      To make a perfect sphere all you need is to make sure it has exactly the same curvature everywhere.

      This turns out to be extremely difficult to do and to validate.

      On the contrary, it is quite simple if you use interferometry. Put the sphere on top of a small flat piece of glass. Illuminate it with monochromatic (laser) light. The light reflects both from the glass and from the sphere; depending on the distance between the glass and a point of the sphere, there will be constructive or destructive interference. It's straightforward to measure the curvature across a square cm with better than 150 nm accuracy (you can do it at home by putting to glass plates on top of each other), and with some tricks even more accurate. See Wikipedia: Newton's rings. There are variations on this principle with better accuracy; they can make telescope mirrors of more than a meter with less than 100 nm deviation from the ideal surface.

    5. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Of course, this technique probably isn't precise enough for the purposes of the kg standard mass. No way linear motors or specular reflection detectors could be precise or sensitive enough to measure or notice reflections below nanometer scale, and maybe not nanometer scale either.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    6. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by dargaud · · Score: 1

      But why isn't it easier to grow a crystal with a cubic symmetry slowly, checking regularly with a scanning tunnelling microscope to ensure that there aren't any atomic defects ? This way you know your angles are 90Â, and you count the numbers of atoms on each side with the microscope.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    7. Re:Polishing the perfect sphere is easier by hankwang · · Score: 1

      But why isn't it easier to grow a crystal with a cubic symmetry slowly,

      As others have said, atomically sharp ridges on a cube are way too fragile. Also, I don't think silicon will spontaneously crystallize as nice cubes, so polishing is still necessary - and impossible if there are sharp edges. Although it has a cubic symmetry, the cleavage planes are octahedral. The technology for crystallizing large chunks of ultra-pure materials is not as well-developed for other materials than silicon.

  78. Definition of the kilogram? by fo0bar · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's 1024 grams, right? Easy definition.

    1. Re:Definition of the kilogram? by StarReaver · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but that's a kibigram. Don't worry, it's easy to confuse them.

  79. But the question is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will it blend ?

  80. A question to insightful slashdotters by holywarrior21c · · Score: 1

    why should it be perfect 'sphere'? how about 1L of water in a atom perfect 10cm x 10cm x 10cm inside of the box? minus the weight of the box? and in a perfect laser cut controlled temperature and pressure? and without any vibration around it? or have the box enclosed?

  81. Two hemispheres by Pirogoeth · · Score: 1

    According to the video, they started out by milling two silicon hemispheres. How did they bond them together?

    --
    Happiness is like peeing yourself. Everybody can see it but only you can feel its warmth.
  82. contamination by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

    Platinum was originally used because it was thought to be totally unreactive in air. That turns out not to be the case over several decades.

    Silicon will react with air almost instantly. There's already a layer of oxygen and water contamination on those things, which will vary with temperature, humidity and time. I remember reading somewhere that they had accounted for this, but I don't remember if it just turns out to be a fudge factor, below the current measurement error or what. It seems to me that relating mass to some easily defined electromagnetic force would be better in the long run.

  83. Other variable 'standards' by Asymtote · · Score: 1

    They used to do this with the meter as well. There was a stick that was the definition of a meter. They then changed that definition after they found exactly what the speed of light was. Basically, it was 299,792,458.xxxxxx meters per second. I have no idea what the decimal was, but it doesn't matter anymore, because they redefined the meter as the distance light travels in a vacuum in 1/299792458ths of a second. Didn't change it much, but gave it an unwavering standard. You can use the meter and water to define a kilogram exactly, since another definition of the kilogram is the amount of water at STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) that fills 1000 cubic centimeters. Reproducable anywhere without using the 'original' weight for measurement. Only real benefit of using a solid is that you can place it in a vacuum to eliminate any buoyancy caused by air. Still cool that they made such finely machined spheres.

  84. Why Round? Why not Square or something straighter by OS24Ever · · Score: 1

    This is a serious question, not trolling.

    I was wondering why you worked so hard to make a sphere when maybe a cube would be easier? (if it's not forgive me for being dumb, but I don't remember being told making a cube was harder than a sphere)

    --

    As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.

  85. A Cube? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    You'd think a cube would be able to be fashioned more accurately than a sphere. I guess the atoms must fall off the edges or something that make it unsuitable.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  86. How much more round are these... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Than the spheres in the gyros of the GP-B?

    The Extraordinary Technologies of GP-B

  87. Can the Higgs Boson be used to define the kg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a wild question..
    Assuming the LHC successfully detects the Higgs boson and improves our understanding of the Higgs filed's mass bestowing properties, could that lead to a fundamental definition of the kilogram?
    (Eg the weight 'exchanged' by each of a pair of Hogsheads of Higgs ??)

  88. Fascinating Puzzle by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    This idea that the mass of supposedly identical objects is changing for no known reason sounds like a fascinating puzzle to be explored. Unfortunately the article seems more interested in ways to work around the problem rather than understanding it.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Fascinating Puzzle by Shadyman · · Score: 1

      Supposedly the mass of the spheres change due to being handled: Each time someone picks it up with bare hands, they add the mass of the oils from their skin in the form of fingerprints. Over the course of decades of handling, you can imagine the difference it can have when you're dealing with something so precise.

  89. A Metrologists comment... by Dylanesque · · Score: 4, Informative

    I am a physicist at the UK's National Physical Laboratory and I am involved in the redefinition of another unit - the unit of temperature. The work concerning the redefinition of the kilogram is >much more philosophically fraught and technically difficult. I understand many of the rather skeptical comments expressed here The current situation is unsatisfactory because the mass of the kilogram is changing, albeit by a small amount - a few micrograms in 1 kg - i.e. a few parts in 10^9. The aim of the work is to replace this artefact with (essentially) a procedure. Effort onne (using the silicon sphere) is essentially trying to build a link between a macroscopic mass, and the microscopic masses which we expect to be fixed. The other effort not mentioned here is called the watt balance which is a machine which can exhibit the same inertial mass as a kilogram - or any other weight. At the moment the two watt balances disagree with each other and they both disagree with the silicon sphere result. There is still a lot of work to do on both approaches. Incidentally, the reason is it is a sphere rather than a cube is because of edges. Edges are amazingly fragile, hence the sphere. ALl the best M

  90. They already tried metric time once... by slew · · Score: 1

    Yet another artifact of the french revolution (circa 1793) but it didn't catch on then...

    Personally, I think that this would be great. Since in the Republican calendar scheme, each 30-day month got divided into 3 10-day weeks in this scheme, 40 hour/weeks would be a breeze... If you got paid monthly, the 5 (or 6) day "leap" month every year would be a pretty good bonus too.

    1. Re:They already tried metric time once... by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 0

      If I recall correctly, they tried that in the USSR. It didn't work.

  91. Only one possible redefinition by againjj · · Score: 1

    They want to have the standards bureau to define the kilogram this way. This is is only one possible redefinition. From what I have read, there is another strong contender which is based on electromagnetic force.

    The new paper proposes that the next General Conference on Weights and Measures adopt either one of two definitions for the kilogram to effectively fix its value by selecting a specific value for either the Planck constant or the Avogadro constant. Two types of experiments are leading the effort to realize either of these definitions. The first one measures a kilogram against the amount of magnetic force required to balance a 1-kilogram mass against the pull of Earth's gravity. The experimental apparatus used to make the measurement is called a watt balance. A kilogram mass is placed on a balance plate that is surrounded by a coil of copper wire, which in turn is surrounded by a coil of superconducting wire. Magnetic fields produced by sending electricity through the coils push on the balance plate to offset the artifact's weight. The amount of electric current and its voltage then is used in defining a kilogram. Electrical power can be related to the Planck constant, defined as the ratio between the frequency of an electromagnetic particle such as a photon of light and its energy. This experimental method of defining the kilogram relies on selecting a fixed value for the Planck constant, which is currently determined experimentally based on the fixed value of the kilogram artifact.

    This comes from here. Here is another article that talks about the same thing. TFA also links to an article that talks of this (I assume), but that article requires a subscription.

    These articles also talk about why it is good to redefine the standard -- basically, by doing so, a bunch of other measurements/definitions immediately have less uncertainty.

  92. its ... by smoker2 · · Score: 1

    Yo mommas ass !

  93. Re:Why Round? Why not Square or something straight by sjs132 · · Score: 1

    Just a shot in the dark, but... if you have a sphere, you'd have one contact point with the surface used to measure? Whereas a cube would be a large flat surface... if they are getting this exact tollerance then they may not want friction playing a role in it. Besides, I think they can spin the silicon sphere to be almost completely not touching a surface. (Air streams in a round chamber) that would effectively levitate it while measureing (xray I guess from article) the # of atoms, etc...

    But just a guess, so I may be WAY off base. Seriously for once....

    BTW, in 2005, Gravity Probe-B project, created the perfect sphere:

    http://einstein.stanford.edu/

    Don't know who actually wins, I'm looking for #'s now...

    --
    --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
  94. Simple: wear resistence by cheros · · Score: 1

    Edges wear off. And what kind of edge do you want? Sharp? Rounded?

    A sphere avoids the whole problem.

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    1. Re:Simple: wear resistence by OS24Ever · · Score: 1

      Ahh. duh. Ok thank you for explaining.

      --

      As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.

  95. If it's a perfect sphere of silicon... by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

    ...would it be a molecule? There's got to be _something_ holding it together...

    Of course the more important question is: if it is, can they use the same technology to build spaceship hulls?

  96. Black holes ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aren't black holes the most perfectly round objects in the world ? (much more than any man-crafted artifacts)

  97. Why a Kilogram? by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

    My logic is that it would be far easier to make a ONE GRAM sphere, then multiply the results by 1000.

    What am I missing here? Harder to detect flaws?

    And ANOTHER thing.

    Why are they not just using a computer simulation, considering the weight of ONE silicon-28 atom is known? Mathematically construct one, then, if capable of producing a PERFECT sphere(which apparently, they are not), spend the million bucks.

    Just seems, to me, like they are putting the cart in front of the donkey.

     

    1. Re:Why a Kilogram? by countach · · Score: 1

      My guess is that they don't know as accurately as they need the weight of a silicon-28 atom, and/or they don't know exactly how compactly they are packed in a typical sphere of silicon. Remember, its no use knowing how many silicon atoms are in a kilogram unless it is feasible to construct reference spheres for use in real life, and this is the test they are embarking on.

  98. I thought a kilogram was... by gsgleason · · Score: 1

    I thought a kilogram was 1000 grams. A gram, I learned, was the mass of one cubic centimetre of water at sea level which has a volume of one mL.

    Is this not accurate?/p?

    1. Re:I thought a kilogram was... by LaurensVH · · Score: 1

      It's reasonably accurate. The problem is that "water" and "sea level pressure" is not the same everywhere to the degree which we want it to make extremely accurate measurements. A human breathing on the water will cause slightly more CO2 do be diluted, slightly different temperatures will cause expansion/compression... These will be made possible by having a better kilogram -- this kilogram.

  99. Impossible according to quantum mechanics. by mech_knight · · Score: 1

    I thought according to quantum mechanics the position (and hence the number) of atoms can't be determined due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

    --
    "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?" --Yoda {whips out green light saber}
  100. Don't worry, it'll be better next year... by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

    I mean, americans are always getting fatter, right?

    --
    If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
  101. pointless exercise by nerds by Serindipidude · · Score: 1

    The Kg of platinum was no doubt the nerdy show-off in its day that the silicon boobs, i mean perfectly round spheres of silicon, are today. Of what possible consequence can the substance or shape of the mass matter?
    Unless you just want to show-off. BTW a kilogram is just that, 1,000 grams. But I guess a 1gram sphere of silicon wouldn't be a boob, it'd be a testicle. And what nerd wants to show off his testicals?

  102. Kilogram measurement ---- Japanese porn comics? by Aereus · · Score: 1

    Slashdot never fails to amaze me at the amazingly strange leaps of discussion that occur...

  103. eromanga from Uranus.. by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    An Australian mining company, no less: http://www.eromangauranium.com/

    Sounds like they could have been from Uranus, too..

  104. Silicon is not Silicone by jopet · · Score: 1

    Or are you such a nerd that you actually prefer Silicon boobs?

  105. 1g != 1cc of water? by Tsu-na-mi · · Score: 1

    I thought the gram was defined as the mass of 1 cubic centimeter of water. Not the case?

    --
    I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
  106. A Kilo is A Thousand Grams... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's easy to remember.

    Whoever got the kilos got the candy, man.

  107. Re:Why Round? Why not Square or something straight by Xarin · · Score: 1

    Remember that scientists are naturally skeptical. To claim something is exactly 1KG takes balls.

  108. An old story by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

    This story broke last year and has already been discussed here.

  109. But, wait a minute... by david.peace · · Score: 1

    Sure, there has to be a finite number of atoms in any given object, but doesn't the Heisenberg principle mean that ultimately you won't be able to count the atoms because you would be interfering with the energy state by doing so, thus making their location indeterminate. If you can't find them, then you can't count them.

  110. I'd hate to be that intern... by phreakhead · · Score: 1

    "Charlie, here, I want you to take this perfect sphere and count the number of atoms in it. Better do it twice just to be accurate. Here's a pencil and paper and a magnifying glass. Have it on my desk tomorrow morning."