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Nintendo Loses Controller Patent Lawsuit
kryogen1x alerts us to coverage at 1up indicating that Nintendo controller may soon become scarce — Nintendo lost in court to Anascape over analog sticks in their Wii and GameCube controllers.This isn't the first time the big manufacturers have been targeted in lawsuits involving features in their controllers. From the article: "The lawsuit concerns the analog sticks in the Classic Controller and GameCube controllers, which Texas-based Anascape Ltd. claims to hold a patent on that Nintendo violated. The court has ruled in favor of Anascape, and US District Judge Ron Clark has rejected Nintendo's request for a new trial. As a result, Clark said he will put a ban on the sale of the controllers (which includes sales of GameCube systems) starting tomorrow, July 23, unless Nintendo posts a bond or puts royalties into an escrow account."
The.
FUCK.
Hopefully they will redesign their analog sticks. All my analog sticks on my GameCube controllers are very jiggly and have huge nullzones.
You are now manually breathing.
When you pry it from my cold, dead hands...
Anascape Ltd. is a Texas-based computer firm specializing in analog-related technology.[1] According to the Dun & Bradstreet database, it is located at "15487 Joseph Rd Tyler, TX."[2] All of Anascape's patents, however, are registed to "Brad Armstrong" of Carson City, Nevada. [3] The companies slogan is "Anascape - The Analog Landscape of the Future!!!"[1]
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Anascape
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
the article was light on details. Who's the asshole in this case? I usually tend to take the little guy's side (assuming a valid patent) but on the other hand, little guys are often casting about for a deep pockets lawsuit. Hard to say who to root for, if anyone.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
See guys! This is what happens when you DDoS 4chan! Now we've got people trolling as the people who troll Twitter, using made up accounts that are one letter off from Twitter's accounts, which are one letter off from whatever accounts it was Twitter had decided to troll in the first place.
These trolls' power level is OVER 9000!
I was about to post the exact same thing (minus the part about the Jew conspiracy) ... a visit to anascape.com shows that the domain is for sale, and google turns up nothing at all on this company besides reference to lawsuits they've launched. So basically it seems this company invents nothing, designs nothing, manufactures nothing, and sells nothing.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
DOesn't prior art have some bearing on this? I mean, the gamecub controllers have been around for how many years now? And Anascape waits until how long ago to file suit? Can they still defend a patent after this long or am I missing something? Something definitely smells fishy here.
Nintendo Co. Ltd. (Nintendo) has been accused of infringing/and or still infringing on the patents listed:
Patent # Title
6,222,525 "Image controllers with sheet connected sensors"
6,344,791 "Variable sensor with tactile feedback"
6,351,205 "Variable-conductance sensor"
6,563,415 "Analog sensor(s) with snap-through tactile feedback"
6,906,700 "3D controller with vibration"
What could the Classic/GCN controllers violate that the Nunchuk doesn't? Probably the analog triggers that *click* when pushed down all the way. "Analog sensor(s) with snap-through tactile feedback" seems an accurate description.
posting AC because I modded down trolls.
And I thought only software patents were frivolous...
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=awZrhG5wo.jw
Apparently the big corportations are not hurt enough to change their attitudes towards patents. May more ridiculous patent suits appear, and clear everybody's eyes that patents are sucking and they are obstacles to (rather than protection of) innovation.
Anascape, you have just unleashed the fury of zillions of Slashdot zealots!
Take no prisioners!
A look at corporate head quarters sheds some additional light on the situation.
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
Here is one way to fix the problem: let the Patent Office be heavily penalized for every patent overturned by the courts. If the Office goes bankrupt as a result of its own negligence, too bad, let it die. Congress can always start a new Office with completely different management.
At the moment, the Patent Office is too unaccountable; there is little penalty for doing shoddy work. The threat of bankruptcy might concentrate a few minds over there.
Analog sticks?? The first generation of consoles (as in 1970) used them almost exclusively, see: This link. Surely patents on using an analog stick would have expired by now?
Shh.
I would put this under the obvious section, think about it, arcade machines have used them for god knows how long (i remember them 20 years ago). If you put arcade games ona console, you'd expect that the same controllers would be ported to a controller as well. Thinking back, there was a game called time commando(or something similar) in which you could face six or eight directions using the stick, there have been a few with dual controllers as well. The machines the games are run on have changed, so shouldn't the controllers be upgrades just the same ?
This looks like some luxury home on the shore of a small lake. May be it is a sole proprietorship.
"The New Age. The New Beginning."
Is 4chan being ddos'd or was it taken down until the spam bots could be solved? Anontalk was responsible, I know that. moot had a sticky up a while ago and then it went dark. haven't heard any news since.
the '700 patent has a November 2000 filing date. I couldn't bear to read the whole verbose patent, but the gamecube controller is so very boring that it's hard to imagine what could be in this patent and in the gamecube controller that wasn't in a controller for a system released before November 2000---including the N64, Dreamcast, and Playstation, or any controller for PC. Why wasn't there any prior art to save Nintendo's bacon at trial?
I'm just trying the nunchuk and classic controller analog sticks and they look and feel identical to me. And they don't click either!
Why not convert to a digital stick. They have digital rotary dials with lots of precision, basically hook 2 of those up to a stick and presto all you would need to modify is the controller's programming and your not infringing.
What a coincidence, headquartered only a short drive away from Patent Troll Central, a.k.a., the US District Court, Eastern District of Texas.
Found here
//Leached from someone else's hard work in Kotaku comments
(http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2008/07/nintendos_patent_case_the_unanswered_questions-2.html)
6,563,415 "Analog sensor(s) with snap-through tactile feedback" - This one is invalid through prior art, i.e. atari 2600 joysticks had snap-through tactile feedback.
6,351,205 "Variable-conductance sensor" - This is the stupidest fucking patent, this is just a potentiometer. The patent office is really shining in the stupidity here.
6,344,791 "Variable sensor with tactile feedback" - another stupid ass patent with prior art going back to the 80's. i.e. race steering wheels used in arcade games like pole position.
Maybe I can get a patent for dumb ass patent troll...
6,245,892 "dumb ass patent troll" - Hey I'm going to start sueing!!!
Hah... Tell that to MadCatz, or Game Infinity, or Pelican Accessories and others. They seem to be doing quite well at making alternative controllers. (With analogue sticks!)
First, ignoring the fact that said lawsuit also affects the classic controller (you know, for the Wii). And that the Gamecube controller can be used on the Wii. Also ignoring that said console is the cheapest of the three of this generation, and widely considered the best value. But, I guess if you irrationally hate [Nintendo,Consoles,Videogames], you probably think their prices are exorbitant.
P.S. if you were trying for "funny", you should try to add an air of truth to your statements. "Nintendo will just have to convert completely over to waggling now" is much funnier, but I doubt even that will get me modded up.
dude, the 2nd amendment says nothing about shooting te h jooz, which is clearly what you want to do.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
... do the actions of a few motivated individuals become "intellectual terrorism?" Excuse the hyperbole, but every time a patent lawsuit is filed, a lot of people are harmed. How long will we allow this to go on?
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
http://status.4chan.org/ states that there's a DDoS attack at the moment.
The companies slogan is "Anascape - The Analog Landscape of the Future!!!"[1]
Remember, the more exclamation points you use, the more exciting people will think your product is.
Ponies!!!
This is a bit of a pedantic response, but "prior art" means something different. Prior art is evidence of the patented invention, or something substantially similar, having already been invented by someone else, earlier than the patent holder's earliest evidence of invention. Prior art usually invalidates a patent, since only the first inventor can patent something.
What you're asking about is the case of someone sitting on a patent for a while, not enforcing it despite being aware of the violation, and then enforcing it later. There is no automatic statutory ban on this, unlike with trademarks, where you can lose the trademark after a period of not enforcing it. There is a general legal doctrine of "estoppel", which prohibits you from inducing someone else into doing something and then suing them; for example, if you told someone you forgave their debt (even if you didn't legally sign documents to discharge the debt), and they relied on your statement to that effect and bought a house, and now you want the money back and they don't have it because they bought a house with it, they could invoke estoppel since you misled them to their detriment about the status of the debt. In cases like this it's a bit harder to invoke---it's not like the patent trolls actively say "hey anyone can use our patent!" and then later "ha ha just kidding, see you in court!" Instead, they keep quiet for a while, and then sue later, so you'd have to argue their silence was acquiescing to or encouraging the use implicitly, and that it was done intentionally for the purpose of getting the defendant to rely on the patented technology before suing. This has worked on occasion.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
6,563,415 "Analog sensor(s) with snap-through tactile feedback" - This one is invalid through prior art, i.e. atari 2600 joysticks had snap-through tactile feedback.
Atari 2600 joysticks were digital, not analog.
If Jews are patent trolls, does that mean you're like, at least part-jewish?
Sega had an analog controller before Nintendo and Playstation, it was bundled together with the game NiGHTS into Dreams (wicked game btw) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamepad#Saturn
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
How the heck would they get "Variable conductance sensor" ? Pot's in game controllers are certainly older than 10 years.
As I recall Atari was the first to put the analog controller into my hands. They should be the one's with the patent. Perhaps someone from Atari should sue anascape or who ever the person Patent trolling is.. I also think the penalty for a patent troll should be life without money. Yes take all their cash away and force them to live at the sewer dump.
These patents involving a stick as a proportional control for direction are creative, innovative and represent a clever improvement in the art. What I'm not sure of is how the inventor is alive still, as the idea has been around for quite a while, as shown by these craft which used the identical principle.
Aw, who am I kidding? If there were no patents all of the people involved here could have spent the last year of their lives doing something useful instead of quite carefully and at horrific cost arriving at a conclusion destined to be overturned on appeal. All they've accomplished is to drive up the cost of everything we buy and impede the progress of science and the useful arts.
Patents and copyright need to go away.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
If you don't consider that prior art then look at the controllers for Radio controlled airplanes and cars. I think Airtronics and Futaba could sue the living shit out of anascape. This goes back to the 60's, My dad had a Heathkit R/C rig that used analog sensors with snap-through tactile feedback... BTW even though the 2600 joystick was in essence digital, all the inputs were read through analog mechanisms.
Between Atari's analog stick from way back and nintendo's analog stick? metal poles vs rubber pads with conductors?
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Anascape may be an IP company, but it doesnt mean Brand Armstrongs patents are invalid.
This guy has 32 patents issued to his name.
http://globaldevices.com/
Now the validity of these patents may be called into question. Looking at the patents it doesnt bring to mind submarine patents as much as the question...shouldnt the person who patents something actually be able to demonstrate a working prototype before a final patent is issued not just a paper invention?
Cmdr Taco is not yet charging by the comment. It's not necessary to do so because the comments are made from 100% recycled electrons. The comment that bothers you expresses succinctly the shock that such an event could occur in a supposedly fair system. Complain that it's rude or vulgar. It is, and so are the events that induced it. Don't complain that it says nothing, because it conveys an emotion felt by many of us. I'm sure some famous person once said "The trick of writing well is to say what you mean, then stop."
Help stamp out iliturcy.
All the companies involved loose money on their game consoles. Net profit is zero so to keep it legal charge them a yearly license fee of $1. A few settlements like that would slow up some of the troll lawsuits that wait until they feel there's a nice tidy profit to attach. They have no rights to the games themselves and that's where the actual profit is.
This is exciting. Brad Armstrong is my good friend Alex's uncle. I actually met him two months ago at a graduation. Brad is a very friendly and interesting guy. Alex says he's been an inventor most of his life and has been screwed out of a lot of patients. He invented the joystick sensitivity function found in Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft controllers. He recently won a lawsuit against the two latter corporations, and now he finally won the third. Interesting... he's now rich, but not as rich as Nintendo.
It should be his patent, damn Patent trolls are everywhere, They really need to increase the penalty for PATENT TROLLS to life in a jail filled with two inches of month old sewage, and nothing to sleep on but the floor. Ralph H. Baer, inventor of television video games and the Magnavox Odyssey console, created the first video game joysticks in 1967. They were analog, using two potentiometers to measure position.[3] (he is not offiliated with anascape in any way shape or form.) To the sewers with anascape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joystick#History
Did anybody ever build an Apple II joystick with snap-through feedback? Those were analog thirty years ago.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
None of those patents were filed before the N64 was released, so anything that the N64 controller did wouldn't be covered. The snap-through one was filed after the gamecube was released.
My memory is quite foggy on this point, but didn't nintendo use patents on their cartridge design to keep 3rd parties from making unauthorized games for the original NES or something? If so, then this seems to be a bit of USPTO karma.
"You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
How totally different these post would be if you replaced Nintendo and Wii with M$/360 and Sony/PSTriple
What the hell is "waggling"
Also, The controller that they can't sell for the Wii is an optional accessory. The Wii-mote does not appear to have been affected by the lawsuit. So they can just go on selling wiis to their hearts' content.
Yeah, gouging wasn't quite the right choice of words (but waggling?!?), since they're clearly under charging, by virtue of the continuing shortages a year and a half later.
But the only thing funnier would be if Microsoft had somehow gotten themselves into a situation where they were legally barred from selling any more XP licenses.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Could you describe how those mechanisms are analog?
And to other posters:
I think these patents are valid because, although it's pretty obvious that some combination of potentiometers would result in an analog joystick, the actual implementation is not obvious. How many potentiometers do you own that you can adjust by swivelling them around a central axis instead of rotating them around? The whole point of patents is to protect inventors from large corporations stealing their ideas. It seems to me that this inventor hit upon an implementation that wasn't obvious, patented it, and is now attempting to make a living from his ideas.
SRSLY.
Patents are the cancer of /life/
Along with copyright and various other stupid things
did the inventor produce working samples?
did the inventor ever attempt to manufacture or license his new idea?
or did he think of ways of joining existing technologies together, patent it, and wait for some poor schlepp to try _actually_ doing it?
thus, the cries of 'patent troll' appear to be in order here.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=84oGAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,222,525
http://www.google.com/patents?id=D0UKAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,344,791
http://www.google.com/patents?id=JHMKAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,351,205
http://www.google.com/patents?id=z3oOAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,563,415
http://www.google.com/patents?id=OLIVAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,906,700
The first and last ones are a bit interesting -- a sort of augmented roll-y-ball thing. They look basically the same, but the last one is written in a boatload of patent-ese.
I just looked up the patent that was applied for in 2000. If I am not mistaken, didn't Nintendo have an analog stick on their N64 controller in 1996?
Sales are not going to stop. Nintendo will, of course, either post a bond or put the royalties in an escrow account, and continue on manufacturing the infringing items while they appeal. If they win on appeal, they get the money back. If they lose, they pay it, and pay a reasonable royalty from then on, or change the design of their devices to not infringe.
Godwin's law just exploded...
Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
Look up that address on a satellite map and it looks like some nice property
Nintendo used an interesting strategy. They basically conceded that the Gamecube controllers and Wii Classic controller infringed, and concentrated on making sure that only those would be found to infringe. The Wii remote was also accused, and their goal was to keep that from being found to infringe.
Judge Clark commented on this when denying Nintendo's motion for remittitur:
What people here don't understand is that you have to read the claims of a patent to know what mechanism really is patented. The claims describe a minimum set of properties that a device should have in order to be covered by the patent. For example:
6,563,415 "Analog sensor(s) with snap-through tactile feedback" - in essence, it is about a button that does 'click' when you press it AND has analog readout. For prior art, you need a combination of these two properties integrated into a single device. The fact that there have been analog joysticks with a clicky button forever is not relevant. In addition there are some technical details on how the click is produced and how the analog reading is done. Make a pressure sensitive button with a capacitive pressure sensor instead of a conductance sensor and it is not covered by this patent.
6,351,205 "Variable-conductance sensor" - this is a variation of the previous one with two click points during pressing the button.
3D controller with vibration - if you read the claim, this seems to be a very complex device with several buttons attached in a specific way combined with potentiometers. The patent was filed in 2000. An Nintendo engineer who knew about this patent could probably have designed around it if he wanted to.
So I don't think the patents are covered by prior art in this case. There is another requirement for a patent, and that is whether the invention is obvious to someone skilled in the art. That is much more fuzzy. In general, if the patent is a new combination of three or more existing inventions, it is non-obvious. If it is only two existing inventions combined, then it depends. I'm not into game controllers, so I can't judge that here.
Avantslash: low-bandwidth mobile slashdot.
The Dragon 32 joysticks were analog with a potentiometer.
Sony and MS are probably helping this kid out, 'cause they want Nintendo out of the game.
Could you describe how those mechanisms are analog?
They were analog switches. (At least in the original controllers. I can't say if that ever changed, however.)
BTW even though the 2600 joystick was in essence digital, all the inputs were read through analog mechanisms.
100% correct. If you ever had a 2600 joystick stop responding properly (as I did many a time) you could disassemble it via 4 screws in the base and then clean the ANALOG contact switches to remove oxidization.
To be sure, I just took apart the one I still have that I use on my C64 and sure enough; ANALOG switches.
.
Note. I've looked though the patents and there is absolutely nothing non-obvious in them. its all things any reasonably intelligent designer would have come up with.
anascape.net .. someone exists apparently!
it's analog in the sense that it's not a IC controlling the output from the joystick, but digital in the sense that it was all or nothing. Therefore called digital. (1 or 0)
i find your lack of faith in science disturbing!
Debatable. The most detailed explanation of what's going on was on Encyclopaedia Dramatica; it seems to be a matter of multiple script kiddies going at each other. Someone DOS'd a lot of chans a couple of days ago and framed some other idiot for it. In the subsequent confusion, and lack of information and coordination with few chans actually up, it seems that people from every downed chan on the net leapt to a variety of conclusions about who was behind it all, and retaliated blind. Anything not DOS'ing is being DOS'd.
Anontalk may very well be DOS'ing 4chan now, but they probably didn't begin it.
tl;dr: chan war for teh epic lulz.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
The Wii has been become the most popoular console in the US (here) Based on these facts, of course an US court will rule in favour of a US company as the result will make the country profit from an overseas competitor like Nintendo.
-- LP-Research
"Waggling" is a common derisive term for the Wiimote gimmick. Its motion sensing is not precise enough for many applications, but no Wii game can possibly go without using this "innovation", so many games (notably Zelda TP) just replaced pressing a button with shaking ("waggling") the Wiimote.
we wont be suffering that kind of shit here.
Read radical news here
The PS2 definitely have that. I can't, off-hand, remember if the analog-stick controllers for the PSX/PS1 had them. If so, they're definitely prior art (as they were available in 1999 and patent 6,563,415 was filed in septermber 2001).
I've seen private inventors being run over by big business, who has a tendency to totally ignore patents that isn't owned by themselves, too many times to feel the least bit upset when one of them actually get some compensation for his patents.
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
Alex says he's been an inventor most of his life and has been screwed out of a lot of patients.
Is he a doctor as well?
Because it's "all or nothing" doesn't make it a digital joystick. Analog switches have properties in that they can have in-between states, hence, analog. Ever try using an analog switch for digital purposes because they were available and easier to wire than some IC? Yeah, have fun with those in-between states causing weird hiccups if you're too lazy to take that into account (which of course assumes you already are if you're using the analog switches in the first place!).
Exciting how? He didn't invent anything here. Analog joysticks were around before he magically came up with the idea. A patent troll is a patent troll, regardless if you know them or not.
He invented the joystick sensitivity function found in Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft controllers
Did he? Or did engineers from those three corporations also decide to implement something obvious but not bother to patent their "inventions" first?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
teh jooz done it! teh jooz done it! Throw the jew down the well, then Nintendo can be free!
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
They stopped making true analog sticks a while back with some exceptions. Most of those sticks referred to as analog are digital, but use a coordinate system like older analog sticks.
"Because it's "all or nothing" doesn't make it digital"
Are you sure you should be posting to slashdot?
Maybe the AOL forums would be more suited to your particular, ah, talents?
"You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
I seem to remember reading the claims of at least one Anascape patent. I think it has something to do with a controller containing both an analog stick and an analog trigger (like the L and R triggers on the GameCube and Wii Classic controllers). The Wii Remote and Nunchuk lack an analog trigger. If you want, I can dig up the reference.
full disclosure: I did not read the patent concerning this.
There are other means to be variable outputs from something other than just a simple pot. In fact, from one patent I saw (it have even been related to this case from an earlier Slashdot story) the use some sort of PWM (pulse width modulation) with an integrator to simulate an analog output. In this scenario, the larger the duty cycle of the pulse signal would result in a larger value after the integration.
Colecovision.
It had a analog input disc that you could "click".
Did the same thing, analog input that was clickable. and predates probably the CEO's birth.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I'm really starting to get pissed off. Corporate America is infringing on freedoms more and more, but in insidious ways.
Challenging free speech with law suits.
Challenging freedom of "fair use" with lobbyists who write laws and get them passed.
The patent system affects our freedom of expression.
If these were invading armies, we'd get our guns and defend ourselves. With internationalization, private entities are acting more like governments with no democratic feedback.
I tell you, "patent trolls" wouldn't dare file stupid law suits if we stormed their offices and took the corporate officers as POWs.
I know this is hyperbole, but I'm also kind of serious, we need to start fighting these extra-legal entities who abuse our laws and have no personal legal responsibility.
It doesn't need to be ground-breaking, just unique and original. If it's not remarkable, then any half-decent engineer should be able to engineer around the patent, thus demonstrating that an unremarkable patent generally has little commercial value.
Am I the only person who gets the impression this company was set-up as a joke, to sodomise the gaming industry?
It doesnt matter whether Anascape is a patent troll, because the courts are an imperfect system. Anascape merely exploited that! I think Anascape realizes that Forward progress is merely an illusion! Therefore if it is impossible to achieve forward progress than you should exploit the faults within the system for your own gain! I applaud Anascape for realizes this fact!
The N64 analog stick was infact digital. Also, if anything done in the N64 was covered under those patents, then the patents would be invalidated due to prior art.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
Can you give an example where patent trolls were cheered on for attacking Microsoft or Sony?
You can't judge a patent by its title, you know.
They don't sell Gamecubes anymore so they are already stopped.
What's an analog switch?
The 2600 controllers were digital. On or off. 1 or 0.
This sounds like a patent pissing contest... I'm pretty sure nintendo's original NES/SNES controller patents would smack down all of this stuff.
stuff |
i already copywrote patent trolling on /. a few months ago. sorry.
What has this guy actually created? Nintendo has created jobs, entertainment, and basically an entire industry that helps fuel the economy. If this guy is such an inventor, what has he created with those specific patents that does anyone any good? Also, there are plenty of 3rd party controller manufacturers, why didn't he go to any of them and get these things made in order to compete with Nintendo? Also, I find your comment about being rich somewhat odd. What do you define as rich, exactly? How about we take Nintendo's total net payroll and divide it by the number of employees. I am willing to bet a few of my own dollars that if we spread the money out in this fashion that Nintendo is not particularly rich. You treat Nintendo as though it is a person, when really it's necessary to make a bankroll comparison on a person-to-person basis. The other question is how each of them got that way, but i fear I would join many others here in crying "Patent troll!" which isn't particularly productive at this point.
-
A large amount of anonymous death threats could help this situation. terrorists unite!
Every decent camera made in the last 20 years already has this. How would such a button not be obvious to an electronics designer?
I doubt any judge in Texas knows anything from a potato.
And anyway, the choice for the rocket docket is because of known bias, lets not pretend otherwise.
the analog sticks in the Classic Controller and GameCube controllers
Yeah, I actually have a patent on the up, down, left, and right arrows on keyboards, and they are kind of similar so I think this company owes me some of their profits.
What really bugs me about these kinds of lawsuits is the company seemingly had no avenue or desire to turn a profit off of their "invention" or "patent" other than through legal manipulation. If I were to go out and totally rip off the iPhone's touch screen interface then fine, sue me for all I'm worth, but if you are holding a patent in hopes that someone will eventually make something that violates it, you're simply 100% in the wrong here. Just my opinion.
I haven't read the patent either, but I have a hard time imagining how something superficially described as a conductance sensor would in the details turn out to be a pwm signal. I mean conductance sensor pretty strongly implies it's the conductance that changes. Says pot to me.
The enemies of Democracy are
No. They are digital. You can even hear the reeds click between on and off.
The Sega Saturn analog controller (packaged with NiGHTS into Dreams) had an analog stick and two analog triggers.
Did it have analog triggers with an extra tactile "snap" at the far (pressed) end of the range? Or were they like the (subsequent) Dreamcast controller's analog trigger, which just hits a wall at the end? Based on my reading of the claims of US Patent 6,563,415, it covers the tactile "snap" at the far end of a spring-loaded analog button such as the L and R triggers of the GameCube controller.
The Atari 2600 joystick was five digital push-buttons on a circuit board (one for each direction, and the fire button). The console set a single bit for each button pushed. The joystick was read as digital data.
The Atari 2600 paddles, however, were analog. A strobe byte to start the capacitor discharging through the variable resistor inside the controller. The program would check several times per frame for a complete discharge, and use the time it took as the value of the paddle.
Funny enough, the Star Raiders touch pad (and Atari BASIC) was also an analog control. The row and column were the two paddles, and different resistances for each row or column. Read single keys only.
The Atari 2600 steering controller was digital. Two bits per paddle, in the pattern 01-11-10-00 so that only one bit changed as you rotated.
Lastly, the Atari 5200 joystick was entirely analog. Many gamers cursed its lack of return to center. Playing Pac-Man on that monster was not fun.
The Atari 7800 returned to the digital joystick mechanism (backwards compatible with the 2600), but added a second fire button (either fire button triggered the "fire" bit, but an analog method was provided to determine which fire button was pressed (left or right)).
The Coleco controllers were also compatible with the Atari 2600 and 7800 joysticks; I don't remember if the Coleco's keypad was compatible with the Star Raiders touch pad.
Finally, all of these controllers also work with the Commodore 64 and 128 joystick port. Exact same pinouts and functionality (digital and analog). Many times I used a 2600 joystick for Commodore gaming. (I really should try that Koala touchpad with some Atari games...)
That was far too long, hope someone finds it useful.
joysticks have been analog since, what, the 1980's?
I've seen private inventors being run over by big business, who has a tendency to totally ignore patents that isn't owned by themselves
The sad part is that if Big N is like many other tech companies, they are literally ignoring patents in the sense that they explicitly tell their engineers not to do patent searches or otherwise try to figure out if any of the things they create in the course of doing their jobs are covered by a patent.
If patents were land mines, and technology were a country, it would be Afghanistan. Or maybe the Korean DMZ. There's so many patents that it's next to impossible not to violate at least one in any non-trivial piece of technology. Even if you do a patent search, you aren't guaranteed to find every potentially applicable patent, nor be able to sort out which do and don't apply in precisely the same way a hypothetical judge would. Yet if you are aware of the existence of a potentially applicable patent, and are found to be in violation, then that's treble damages. Even just doing the search to begin with could imply that you knew of the patent and knowingly violated it.
Thus, they ignore the patents, and hope for the best. When they violate another tech company's patent, then hopefully their own pile of patents gives them leverage. If it's a small inventor, they can either settle or hope the inventor can't afford the legal battle. If it's a patent troll, then they're basically screwed.
I don't know about this case in detail, but it certainly seems plausible to me that Nintendo engineers, deliberately ignorant of any patents and given the concept for a controller with analog triggers that "click" when fully depressed, came up with an invention very similar to the one in the patent.
Private inventors certainly get screwed by this setup. The big tech companies whose engineers are actually making things get screwed too. The system is broken. The only people it is working for are people who do nothing but buy up other peoples' patents, and then sue other companies for violating them, never inventing nor creating anything themselves except obstacles to progress. This is the opposite of the intention of the patent system. It's broken.
The enemies of Democracy are
I live in the Tyler area and did a quick google search. That is on Lake Tyler and is probably not a business doing much other than fishing and drinking beer.
They're, their, don't loose you're temper, reign it in!
From this gamesindustry.biz article the judge has banned sales of the Wii Classic Controller, Wavebird and Gamecube Classic Controllers.
Sony licensed the patent from Anascape, MSFT got sued as well, but settled. Nintendo fought and lost in court to the tune of $21M. The suit included the Wii controllers, but Nintendo was found not guilty.
There's more information here at bloomberg.
Nice area - I didn't know Texas had green.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is exactly correct. When patent law was first started back in 1474 all those large corporations were just walking all over the little guys and stealing their ideas...
Wait, that doesn't seem right. I seem to remember something about "promot[ing] the Progress of Science" being an important part of patent law in the US, which has nothing to do with giving an advantage to anyone but the inventor, whether an individual or corporation, big or little, rich or poor.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
I think these patents are valid because, although it's pretty obvious that some combination of potentiometers would result in an analog joystick, the actual implementation is not obvious.
Ridiculous. Analog joysticks have been implemented by using two potentiometers (one for X-axis, one for Y-axis) since The Beginning of Time (or at least the 70's). It is the intuitive and immediately obvious means of achieving the desired effect.
This Anascape company is just one of many useless leeches upon society.
WTF!!!
I ran into the bullshit problem when I fabricated a joystick to replace an Atari OEM model for an arcade machine I had (I owned an arcade).
Atari demanded I had to BUY theirs at an outrageous cost when it was just a freaking stick with a ball and 4 contacts...
The judge didn't even let them sue me due to it be such an OBVIOUS means to implement a joystick controller and would encourage monopoly of the concept...
i see now how bad things have gotten with patent laws...dumb ass judges and lawyers ruining the world...can we gather them all up, put them on a south pacific island, and test another h-bomb?
Because it's "all or nothing" doesn't make it a digital joystick. Analog switches have properties in that they can have in-between states, hence, analog. Ever try using an analog switch for digital purposes because they were available and easier to wire than some IC? Yeah, have fun with those in-between states causing weird hiccups if you're too lazy to take that into account (which of course assumes you already are if you're using the analog switches in the first place!).
LOL, ridiculous! Please google for a definition of "digital". The "weird-hiccups" you describe can only be "bounce" which is due to the bouncing back and forth that can happen during the slight instant a mechanical switch changes state. Regardless, switches (any switches!) are only ever "on" or "off" and are inherently digital.
I find it amusing how Slashdot hates big business like Microsoft yet becomes total hypocrites when it comes to Nintendo and Apple. Nintendo is just as evil (if not more so) than any other company. They may make games you like, but they are still a business trying to maximize their profits. If they took this guy's idea, then they should pay. It doesn't matter if he employs people. If MS took someone else's idea would you say it is ok because MS is used by more people and employs more people? No, you would root for the little guy. But for some reason people are the opposite when it comes to Nintendo.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Do the patents tell you HOW to make the controller?
If not, then there is no patent.
It's OK. We're used to it by now.
My point was merely "What has this guy done to show he was actually going to use this patent?"
One of my intents was to allow someone who (apparently) sort of knows him to stand up and say "He was planning on doing X", or "Look at his website, he's attempting to innovate such and such." there-by invalidating some of the patent troll cries.
It seems to me that the ultimate end of any intellectual property is to better a person or persons. If that patent is not used or intended to be used for such a purpose, then why isn't it fair game, especially with something as basic as a game controller? If someone just sits on a patent for years and is not marketing it, then that sure looks like someone just waiting to profit legally, rather than doing the work a business does to develop and market a product.
Nintendo has done the business work. It's why they have their name and reputation. They may be abusing that power now (like MSFT or even Apple (who I am not a big fan of, since you mention it), but look at how many times they've had an uphill climb (late 80's, late 90's, and today) and beat the odds, look at all the sweat equity in their business, and I challenge you to find a business in an equally vicious industry that has fought and re-fought (and won) as many trials as Nintendo has. Oh, and I don't own any Nintendo gear but an old NES. I did, however, profit from NTDOY stock about a year ago.
My opinion still stands: The arguments sure point to this guy being just a libelous sponge, as I've seen no evidence to the contrary. Would I *like* to see someone receive genuine compensation from a broken and out-dated legal system? Sure! Does that appear to be happening here? I'm not so sure, but I welcome being proven wrong, and I'm sure many Slashdotters would too (no matter what they say, they're still scientists and want to see more evidence)
Yes, I'm a little biased already. However, I do think people should get what they deserve, and as an outside observer it doesn't really look like this guy deserves much. If I could sit and dinker in the basement all day and come up with ideas that's fine, but the real test is putting that idea out there and getting people to buy it. Otherwise, well, it's just sitting in my basement which too many Slashdotters do already anyway!
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Desire is NOT a job, but in this case our legal system is allowing just that.
This guy needs to get out and make something (or show is attempting to make something) with the patents he's sitting on, otherwise they should be taken away. Use it or lose it!
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Not true any more. There was a suit not long ago, in the Supreme Court even, which basically says "If you combine things, and the end result is having the obvious result of combining those things, then your invention is Obvious (prior art doesn't even have to be invoked)." I'm pretty sure there is no "magic cutoff" of combining three or four things versus combining only two. You would have to get new, non-obvious functionality. Adding "click through" to an analog device to obtain tactile position feedback information doesn't give you new or unexpected functionality. If adding click through to the device somehow gave you, say, olfactory feedback, that would definitely be non-obvious and patent-worthy.
I'm surprised the Nintendo et al. lawyers didn't throw this all over Anascape's case.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Unless, of course, the idea is so general that it qualifies pretty much every reasonably simple solution to a given engineering problem.
The idea of a clicky button on a joystick is not a mechanistic innovation - it's a direct, simple response to an engineering requirement.
It seems silly that every manufacturer to hit such a requirement should be required to come up with a more convoluted, unique solution just because the simplest one has already been written down by someone who got to it first.
Imagine if the second automotive manufacturer to hit the market had to come up with an engine without reciprocating pistons, because the first was already using them.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Last time I checked, game console controllers haven't used "analog sensors" for oh... 20+ years. The N64's one did the digital on/off signals mechanically, even.
Congratulations on advancing to the 9th grade. No, I don't want fries with that.
the last time this court case was mentioned on /. i looked into the history of this guy. he was a dot-bomber in the gaming industry, when the dust cleared he was out of a job and looking for ways to make money, and became a patent troll. He started in California, then moved to nevada, then moved his court cases to the capitol of patent troll court cases, that city in texas which sees the most patent cases of like any court nation wide...
it's convenient, because that county has very few criminal cases, and the judge does everything as quick as possible. you won't get tied up in legal maneuvering. oh yeah, and the juries there always go after the guy with the deep pockets who hire the slimy lawyers who practically get thrown out of court for trying to make the whole process drag on...
but here's the thing, because of the number of patent suit people who just settle out of court, rather than face that judge who doesn't know how to take a bribe... with a hostile jury... that statistically they don't have a massive stack of legal victories. if you settle out of court, it'll cost you less, and Microsoft, who as originally also a plaintiff did just that almost 6 months ago and for less than Nintendo is going to pay.
It's commendable that the judge won't take bribes and is hostile to maneuvering tactics by lawyers. but it's also scary that anybody with half a brain who can abuse the patent system knows they're going to win...
I wouldn't be surprised if that judge eventually had a hitman kill him at his home, i guess the patent trolls haven't gone after the wrong kind of people yet.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Electronics Theory is ca be a little different from what happens in practice. While theoretically they're digital, in practice they aren't. If they aren't truly doing just on and off, they aren't digital no matter how much you want to protest.
incorrect use of the word analog. by your definition everything is analog. But in the context of digital versus analog, a sensor that only provides an on or an off state is a digital control. if it were pressure sensitive (which physically the material is pressure sensitive) AND the circuit attached to the sensor understood the variable sensor then it could possible be an analog control.
On one side you have the industry calling everything digital (digital headphones, digital batteries, etc) even for things that are not digital at all. And on the other side you have the wannabe pedants calling everything analog. I'd rather just use a proper definition of a word in the right context and carry on a normal conversation.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
;)
Heh I don't feel like registering for Slash, but I did find an article about why East Texas is absolutely the place to file for IP Infringement:
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=16280&ch=infotech&a=f
Nintendo refused to roll over, now they have to fight on. Let's hope they get their day in something other than a kangaroo court.
"People who waste points modding down trolls are fags also known as Mac users"
Touché.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch Contact bounce (also called chatter) is a common problem with mechanical switches and relays. Switch and relay contacts are usually made of springy metals that are forced into contact by an actuator. When the contacts strike together, their momentum and elasticity act together to cause bounce. The result is a rapidly pulsed electrical current instead of a clean transition from zero to full current. The waveform is then further modified by the parasitic inductances and capacitances in the switch and wiring, resulting in a series of damped sinusoidal oscillations. This effect is usually unnoticeable in AC mains circuits, where the bounce happens too quickly to affect most equipment, but causes problems in some analogue and logic circuits that respond fast enough to misinterpret the on-off pulses as a data stream. Sequential digital logic circuits are particularly vulnerable to contact bounce. The voltage waveform produced by switch bounce usually violates the amplitude and timing specifications of the logic circuit. The result is that the circuit may fail, due to problems such as metastability, race conditions, runt pulses and glitches. There are a number of techniques for debouncing (mitigating the effects of switch bounce). They can be split into wet contacts, timing based techniques and Hysteresis based techniques.