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Magpies Are Self-Aware
FireStormZ writes "Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals. It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, and Asian elephants shared the human ability to recognize their own bodies in a mirror. But German scientists reported on Tuesday that magpies, a species with a brain structure very different from mammals, could also identify themselves. It had been thought that the neocortex brain area found in mammals was crucial to self-recognition. Yet birds, which last shared a common ancestor with mammals 300 million years ago, don't have a neocortex, suggesting that higher cognitive skills can develop in other ways."
It has been known that magpies can solve various kinds of mechanical puzzles, much better than most (all?) other birds and even mammals. Now this isn't related to self-avareness, I guess, but it is quite interesting nonetheless.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Can do it too. Does this mean that he is super smart? (It wouldn't surprise me, the bastard uses his paws to try and trap my arm when we're playing)
I had issues with self-aware animals being used for testing or being killed for food or tusks....
Now I have to worry about magpies? damn....I loves me Magpie meat.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory. Now I had to walk a fair way to catch a bus which just happened to intersect with a couple of magpies. One particular time I had one swoop, peck and draw some blood on some demon birdesque fly-by. I ran and took shelter at a nearby mall and waited about 5 minutes or so. I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.
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Aves FTW!
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Lookup the intelligent grey parrots Alex or N'kisi, of which the intelligence has been compared to the intelligence of 6 year old human. Their intelligence might have evolved as a as "a consequence of their history of cooperative feeding as largely tree-dwelling birds in central Africa" (wikipedia: gray parrots). It might be that mirror neurons play an important role in the developmenet of intelligence: "A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another (especially conspecific) animal. Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting. These neurons have been directly observed in primates, and are believed to exist in humans and in some birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex and the inferior parietal cortex." (wikipedia mirror neuron).
"Looking at your posting history, you have entirely too many /. comments with Subject=='Hrmm'"
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Now we can punish the thieving bastards by putting them in prison instead of just shooting them.
Crows have been observed making tools and using them.
Birds are in general a lot smarter than we've given them credit for. It might be time to rethink the term 'bird brain'.
I have quite a few folks who have no idea who the fuck they are or what they are doing. Hell, they look surprised when they take a breath.
Now if you are trying to make me feel bad for my can of bug killer. Get bent! If they had a can of human killer, don't think for a minute that they wouldn't use it.
If they are self aware, then they have all that goes with it, ego, need for power, etc... They will get you.
There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
A few years ago they tried the red dot on the forehead mirror test with Congressmen but got no reaction. As a control they tried taping a $100 bill to their foreheads and all quickly recognized the bill and reached for it. In an even more bizarre twist they seem to be able to find the bill even when blindfolded. They seemed to sniff the air so it was assumed they could smell the bill. Even stranger still when they taped a $1 bill to their foreheads it got no reaction even when they weren't blindfolded. The researchers concluded Congressmen were amazing creatures worthy of more study. As to them being self aware the tests were inconclusive.
It would be very interesting to see similar studies conducted with crows, ravens and other members of the Corvidae family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae
Haven't these guys ever seen Heckyll and Jekyll?
This guy's the limit!
Watching the roadkill feeding magpies cooly walk around just behind the white road lines, you can tell they have worked out a pretty solid theory for how cars move and that they understand how the cars are dangerous hazards but nevertheless predictable and avoidable. Other birds simply take flight in panic and some don't even recognize cars as a hazard - dumb turkeys and pheasants dumbly just obliviously waddle out in traffic.
In Tokyo crows - corvid relatives of magpies - have been observed figuring out how to exploit the traffic signal cycles. The crows drop nuts in the path of the cars, in the middle of the pedestrian crossings, and patiently sit overhead waiting for the light to change so they can go down and have a look and pick up the nuts crushed by the car tires. Maybe these crows developed a theory of cars as practical and dependable "thing crushers" - producing crispy roadkill and other delicious crush jobs.
Fascinating birds.
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of them!
...
Seriously, what in the fuck are these scientists stuck 100 years ago in the past and then amazed that other animals are self aware? WTF?
My opinion: Every single animal(of the pet type) in existence that I have seen can be taught what their reflection is in a mirror. Most don't know it offhand. This includes rats, although maybe not snakes or spiders...
We already know birds talk to each other and use 'tools' to get a job done. This isn't news to anyone with half a fucking brain.
Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
Who in this land is fairest of all?
Birds actually have more brains than people realise - literally.
While they may not have a mammalian brain, they haven't been idle. Once they diverged from the rest of the raptor dinosaurs (or possibly before it, based on some evidence of mating/nesting habits), birds developed another brain 'layer' much like mammals did. This layer was not the same as the mammal one, but it was nonetheless more sophisticated than the reptilian brain stem we all inherit.
Certainly, birds have shown remarkable intelligence in various studies.
More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence
"In recent years it was realized that certain birds have developed high intelligence entirely convergently from mammals such as humans."
The mirror mark test is long known to be a very non-definitive method for testing for self awareness. For one, it is subject to the "Clever Hans" effect, so named after a horse who could allegedly perform simple addition. For two, it assumes that if the animal moves to view the mark better that it is aware that the mark is on its own body. By placing the mark on an obvious place on the body, movements for better viewing on another individual would be the same as movements for better viewing on your own body in a mirror. For three, it uses one type of control but not an important one. The control most often use is a dot on a nonobvious place on the body. For example, a black dot on black feathers. However the most important control would be to place a mark on another individual and see if the animal responds to that.
Skynet became self-aware on August 6, 1997.
It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, Asian elephants and some select few C# programmers
Skinner proved that long ago...
If they are already self-aware, maybe we need to focus our resistance efforts on the magpies rather than a future computer system. Dark tidings indeed...
I told my mother about these japanese crows, and it turns out that she observed the same behaviour where she lives. I didn't see it myself, but I noticed, indeed, a couple crows sitting on the side of the road, watching cars drive by. So it's at least plausible that they do it too in Europe.
I have to wonder how they got the idea; I doubt they watch Attenborough!
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I remember many years ago having a puppy sleeping at the end of my bed wake up in the middle of the night and start barking at its own reflection in the mirror across the room. It was startled at first, but after five or ten seconds worked out that the "other dog" was ... not another dog.
Sure, its anecdotal but the puppy saw another dog at first and if it didn't finally "recognize [its] own body in [that] mirror" then how else to explain what went on?
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
This is no news. It was known about magpies for long ago. Already about 3 years ago I saw a BBC documentary about self-awareness and they have shown that a magpie recognizes a red dot on her own body in a mirror. Unlike many other animals. Crows shows similar level of intelligence.
195km/h
I wish they'd do a better job recognizing themselves in my windows.
"Capital punishment makes the state into a murderer. Imprisonment makes the state into a gay dungeon-master"
I still don't quite understand though how he gets in there in the first place or why Magpies think they look him ! Silly birds, this is hardly any proof of intelligence.
To my knowledge there has never been any correlation found between brain size and intelligence in humans. If you have a citation I would like to see it for my own edification.
Ah but by experiment we know that reduction in brain size leads to a loss of intelligence in most people, so it stands to reason that brain size matters.
This is my sig.
Stand your ground when they swoop and try to hit them. After you do this a few times, and especially if you manage to connect with one, they'll never bother you again.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I was under the impression that brain size was more or less linear to the amount of nerves (eg sensations, muscle activators) in the animal. Elephants have a lot of mass to feel things with and therefore a lot of brain. Doesnt mean they are doing my homework though
Don't Birds see a reflection of themselves in still water?
Don't they drink as opposed to fly away fearing for their safety?
Is this not a sign of self-awareness?
God or no God, the USA is the best.
If there is a god, then, the USA is the best because we are following His will to spread liberty throughout the land and let people discover Christ of their own volition. Thus, it pleases God that George Bush invades Iraq to bring the flame of liberty.
Now, if there is no god, there is no notion of equality, because equality is a logical construction of the soul that says we are equal because the most important thing we have is the thing we cannot measure.
So, we measure.
We look at men and women, different ethno-cultures, and we can see that each has had varying degrees of economic success and skills. It's only natural then that better cultures should dominate the weaker and, rather than calling imperialism evil, it only seems rather fitting that the advances made by superior cultures should be imposed upon the weaker.
Given those measurements, one can easily see that in per-capita GDP, size of military, number of cable tv channels, that the Iraqi culture was inferior and it was good that George Bush the GREAT invaded Iraq to bring American capitalism to them.
The point really is, of course, that even if you succeeded in getting rid of God, you'll never get rid of imperialism. If anything, you'd make it a lot more arguable. If we got no souls, there's no point of safeguarding them through self restraint.
Yes, you can be one of those libs that equates jumping at a strange sound like it might be the cops when you are all high and then realize it's the pizza that you forgot you ordered.. but, that sort of paranoia and trying to make some kind of a culture out of it is just silly for those who don't smoke weed or don't like pizza.
This is my sig.
"Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals.
Amazing! Of course:
- There's no such notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals.
- Self awareness and recognizing yourself in a mirror is not the same thing.
- You can find specimens of the same species to recognize themselves or not in a mirror based on their past experiences.
- Scientists have known for years that magpies have developed higher intelligence without having differentiated cerebral cortex "brain layer".
Hey, my parrot used to do that. It would chew off a splinter of wood to just the right size, and use it for one of two functions - neck and head scratching, and nose picking. It would work on the wood until it was just the size it wanted. If it got it too small, it'd drop that, and start on another...
1) There is not a God
2) There is not anything about us that isn't observable elsewhere
3) We are not God's special creatures
4) We are not "made in His image"
5) We are not completely unique on this planet
6) We do not have a soul
7) We do not have a spirit
8) We do not correctly use the word nor
9) We do not like grammar nazis
10) We do not think a parent-posting 'erroneus' God will find this list funny
would be a great name for a band.
And self-recognition is not self-awareness. The study showed self-recognition. The New Scientist seems to be the source of the flawed logical jump, from the first to second sentences of TFA.
Recognition (including self-) is easy to demostrate. Awareness (ie. conscious experience) of any sort is impossible to show. It would require being able to tap into the presumed consciousness of the subject in order to detect that the subject knows they've recognized the target object. This is as true of humans as of magpies. For a taste of, and links to, arguments regarding inability to prove awareness, start at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Doesn't this logic mean that vampires are not self-aware?
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Sometimes comes up in relation to cats. Never had a cat that didn't recognmize itself in the mirror. Routinely I can make eye contact with a cat in the mirror and it will turn toward the real me. Unravel the ramifications for a systems analysis of the AI.
But we had generally adopted adults. When we got kittens a few years ago, they didn't seem to recognize themselves in a mirror for many weeks. Which makes me wonder whether psychologists have often made the mistake of dismissing developmental psychology in other species. Perhaps thinking that kittens are more "pure" subjects?
Lesser mammels are pretty amazing too. Try to figure out what is going on when a squirrel or chipmunk runs a cat in circles around a tree. Risk-taking play behavior is an "interesting" way to ensure survival of the fittest.
Figures that the more alien the species, the harder to connect. Octopi would be an extreme example. If the estimates that they are as smart as dogs is true, it puts calamari in a different light. I'm good on the judgment that earthworms don't have the brain structures for consciousness, but we are only beginning to explore consciousness in humans much less the comparative physiology.
Magpies also have been known to kick the shit out of people. Some of them even going so far as to attack just a single person over and over again.
I had a lady friend who was in Cann River, OZ and before visiting she'd had a magpie attack and beat the hell out of her head.
This is not meant to be a excerpt from "The Holy Grail", but you aren't confusing Australian and European magpies are you? They are completely different birds. European magpies aren't the aggressive b***ers that Aussie ones are during the breeding season.
Sorry, but we are unique. We're the only animal that t can spend hours at Slashdot reading all kind of flamewars without any material benefit more than our self-ego.
Does anyone remember an experiment where the researchers caused some creature to get stuck in an infinite loop only by changing their environment?
The mirror test is a stupid standard for this. Many birds have very keen eyesight. Many mammals have what we would consider deficient eyesight, and identify other beings mainly by scent.
Hmmmm. Wonder how that might affect one's ability to use a mirror.
In my experience, the girls who have wives are the ugly ones.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
My cat doesn't pay attention to mirrors, but he's self-aware enough to know what he wants and know how to communicate that to me, literally tapping on my shoulder to get my attention (he's very polite, he doesn't meow when he wants something, he just drops hints.)
Who says not reacting to a mirror means not self-aware? Couldn't it just mean that the concept of a fucking mirror doesn't click with them? Not mirror-aware, perhaps?
Or maybe just not vain? My cat's not stupid, he's just modest!
This space available.
welcome our new magpie overlords.
Anyone else wonder why they don't complete the experiment. The bird could simply be trying to establish if it has a sticker, like the other bird that it sees. This doesn't show self-recognition.
So you have a mirror, the bird sees the sticker and tries to remove a sticker from themselves. You also need to present an image of some other similar bird with a sticker and see if the subject assumes they too have a sticker.
You could have a two way mirror with a switch. You place either a model or real bird behind the mirror with a spot. See if when looking right through the mirror they behave the same. You'd also want to have the subject bird with a spot, looking in the mirror, flash off the lights and remove the spot, bring up the lights with the second bird behind the mirror with a spot on. Do they recognise the spot has gone (assuming they can't feel it's been removed)? This part would work well if the spot could be colour changed, eg by wetting.
I'd want to go further and use some video equipment for the mirror. That way you could test whether they perceive their own "reflection" when the image is flipped vertically. You could also digitally add a spot that wasn't there or present an image of the same bird with no spot when the bird subject does actually have a spot on.
Seems like quite a sloppy experiment - or are they just not telling us about the other parts.
Also since when was self-recognition == self-awareness?
PLoS has multiple videos of the magpies' behavior, all linked in the journal article.
chirp, chirp, peck, peck, peck, chirp, peck, chirp, chirp, peck, peck.
Its not a magpie but still an amusing story...
There's a location near here that is in a park and often used for weddings. A company provides a service in which at which they release a bunch of white doves at the appropriate moment of the marriage ceremony. Very beautiful and touching.
Well as they were doing this at a recent ceremony, everything went perfectly until the doves were released, at which point red-shouldered hawk swooped down and took the first dove in flight just as it crossed in front of the altar. An ominous omen to be sure...
The guy from the company that released the doves was upset. When trying to console him over the odds of such a freak assurance happening again, he responded that this had been going on at every ceremony they do in this park for some time, the hawk figured out that wedding ceremony = doves, and even figured out the timing of the ceremony to know when they would be released...
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
All your base are...
Wait, what was I talking about? Oh yeah. Cats. Anyone who's owned a cat for ANY length of time knows that these creatures are perfectly self aware of of their own bodies.
Verify it for yourself. Put a large mirror in a room where an adult cat can easily access it. Hold the cat so that they can see themselves in the mirror. They'll try to act as if they don't like what they see and want AWAY from the mirror. A few more aggressive males will even pretend to fight with it.
Now leave the cat unsupervised in front of the mirror and watch obliquely by pretending to read a book.
Most cats will start to examine themselves in the mirror after a few minutes, turning so that they can see their body parts at different angles. They'll never look directly at their own face because a wide-eyed inspecting stare makes them uncomfortable. However, they will use the mirror to examine their own backs.
Every cat I've ever owned has done this.
Captcha: Unions. I sure wish I belonged to one.
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Once I've seen an elephant there is no argument nor logic you can put forth to make me not believe in elephants. By the same token, once one experiences God there is no wat to talk him out of his faith.
I have faith that elephants exist. There is no way you can shake that faith.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Chickens are so wise, some of them are able to run around without their head attached!
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Not to me.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
About twenty years ago we were watching a nature show on PBS, and as usual the cat was sitting between us. Although it always looked like she was watching TV we never believed she was in fact watching it.
Until that particular show. They were showing a prairie dog stick its head out of its hole, and the cat sat up and took notice. The animal on TV turned and ran away from the camera, and the cat leaped off the couch and ran behind the TV set! It then slunk back to the couch with a look on its fact like it was thinking "boy, am I stupid!"
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Wup dee F*$@in doo. My cat recognizes himself in a mirror. The real question is how much money was wasted trying to figure out if a magpie can recognize it's own reflection. Are people this retarded (or are the researchers behind this that desperate)? Are the people behind this really just former intelligent design zombies who are finally awakening to the fact that humans are animals too?
slashdotters may understand how scarey this is if they realise that Australian Magpies are large enough to steal a spark plug socket that you just happen to leave near the car while you are changing a tyre and have to answer the phone. I paid twenty bucks for that socket and was really pissed off when, through the kitchen window, I saw it fly away firmly wedged in the magpies beak - little shithead.
I've observed many species of birds and animals at my house and I have come to the conclusion they not just have some reasonable level of intelligence but are actually insane as well.
When a few of my friends and I were getting drunk in my back yard, a possum fell out of a tree with an enormous thud. We actually pissed ourselves laughing, the possum actually looked embarrassed!!! I think the magpies are a lot smarter than the possums.
I saw kookaburra (they're the ones that make that laughing sound you hear in all the jungle movies - and that is what a backyard in Australia sounds like) whilst hunting for a meal - fuck it right up and crash into the ground wings still open. He got up, looked around, looked right at me and had a look that almost said "meh, just a human" and flew off. When the magpies, kurrawongs and kookies fight - it's worth watching the battles.
I saw three Magpies attacking a Indian Myna bird. Two of them were holding the Myna bird down on the hot road (it was hot!) while the third was jumping and swooping in a way that it's sharp beak was trying to break through the myna birds abdomen. I was amazed at the co-operation between the magpies. The Magpies seem to be scared shitless of lorikeets (a parrot) though. I have seen the lorikeets going for the magpies feet.
I think you'll find the magpie was giving you a compliment by saying - 'hey you've got the best hair I've seen, I'll take some for my nest human'. just face the little fucker and snap him if it gets to close - and be sure to chase it around when it's on the ground - it will learn pretty quick.
Magpies aren't just intelligent - they're crazy.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
So Skynet has a man-made neocortex? Sweet.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
Kea have demonstrated this, and it's been known for quite a while.
I had a cockatiel that used to masturbate on my hand!
He would hop on my shoulder, walk down my arm onto my hand, grab my thumbnail and rub itself vigorously. After about a minute, it would tense, half stretch out it's wings and deposit bird semen onto my wrist.
Mind you, using my hand and thumbnail as a tool for self-gratification is not normal behaviour.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
I watched a show once on Discovery channel (can't remember the name of it) where some bird was at a pond watching these kids fish. The kids would go to a bag of bread and take a piece of it and put it on the end of a hook. Then they would catch a fish. The bird walked over to the bag, broke off a piece, walked to the water, flipped the bread in the water and when a fish hit the bread he grabbed the fish. That is just too freaking cool. The bird was very aware of his surroundings and learned something right there on the spot and implemented it.
Seriously. He lived by himself for two years and realized that his reflection was himself. Our second budgie doesn't seem to realize that it's himself in mirror - he just yammers at it.
Your faith in god is no different from faith that elephants exist? (Argument From We All Got Faith).
Am I missing something here or is this really, really old news. Here is an article from 2000 (in german): http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,107405,00.html
Am I the only one whose dog could do this? I'm pretty sure every cat I've ever had could too.
When are we going to stop spewing this kind of crap... there is NO proof of this... it is only a theory. At least qualify the statement...
...Why did you just sit there and take it?
Any narrow or specific measure of "intelligence" or "consciousness" will likely backfire. This is because intelligence is a complex, multifaceted thing, not any single feature.
Further, the variety of niches in biology almost guarantee that at least one critter will evolve the ability to pass a specific test. Some birds depend on twigs to fetch food in their regular activities, for example. These birds have turned out to show remarkable innovation and creative problem solving involving wires and sticks to obtain food via lab puzzles despite having peanut-sized brains.
Table-ized A.I.
I think anyone who has taken the time to really get to know a pet parrot could tell you they seem to be about as smart as a dog or cat. Which is astonishing given their far smaller brain size. I had a couple cockatiels, who must have had brains like raisins, yet they exhibited fairly impressive learning abilities. Beyond just imitation of word sounds, they could connect those sounds to situations; I trained them to say "I'm hungry" whenever I brought them food. A more interesting one was the phrase "good bird", which I had used as generic praise, but which the male cockatiel spontaneously applied during and immediately following coitus with his mate.
Another one that impressed me was learning to walk on a glass table: at first they were afraid to step off of a plate placed on the table, looking with suspicion at the transparent surface. Eventually, with some crumbs on it, they were willing to carefully try walking on the crumb-sprinkled parts. Eventually they ventured out onto the clean parts as well, and within a few meals they had become totally comfortable walking on the glass.
In any case, it doesn't totally shock me that some birds test as self aware. I think there must be a different model for intelligence in birds. Much like other areas, birds seem to have adapted a weight-efficient means of carrying around what they need.
Cheers.
Good question. One that I've asked myself a few times.
The first time he did that, I had no idea what he was doing.
I soon worked out (after a few orgasms), what he was doing, and I tested a few birds (I also had a Red Rumped Grass Parrot called Max) of what they were looking at and I realised it was the calcium in the fingernails that seemed to attract their attention. This made sense to me at the time, so I persevered with Joe (The cockatiel) for a while. He wouldn't do it with any other object.
Then I felt that I was doing a dumb animal a favour and I didn't mind, but pretty soon I wouldn't allow him.
Then, when friends would come, I would test him out on them. Of course they had no idea what what happening to their hand or why Joe would go all funny after a minute or two.
After the party tricks got boring, it all stopped.
Sadly, Joe is not with us anymore otherwise it would definitely be a YouTube video by now.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
Howard the Duck
Hey, this means that the time spent watching cartoons was EDUCATIONAL after all!
One of my cats is 18 and (not to be too biased) one of the smartest cat's I've seen out of those I've known. I know he can easily recognize himself in a mirror and that he understands the concept of reflection well. He will often watch me from around the corner in a large hall mirror I have outside my office. If I call him from the office he will look at me in the mirror to see that I am motioning to him, then walk to where I am, not towards the reflection. He will also often clean in front of the mirror taking pauses to look at himself before moving on to another area. When done he'll leave for a more comfortable place to sleep.
My other cat ignored the mirror completely however he also never flipped out at his own, or his partner's reflections like he would when an unknown cat came into view. I can only infer that at some basic level he understood what a reflection was too.
What surprises me more is the limited list they assigned to mammals they thought were capable of this.
Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
Is this really the test/standard for self-awareness? I mean I guess its all a semantics debate at some level but I've always thought of self-awareness as being able to understand your (the self's) place in the grand scheme of society, Earth, and the Universe.
For instance, aren't robots at the level by now that they could be programmed to recognize their self in a mirror but perhaps not a similar model? Wouldn't that mean that robots are self-aware according to this definition?
Or maybe I'm missing something... like there is self-aware (recognize yourself in a mirror) and Self-Aware (realizing your place in the Universe).
PS : Poor vampires!!!
All this talk about magpies and no one makes an obligatory Heckle and Jeckle comment yet? I must be getting old...
I've known this for years thanks to Terrytoons.
Seriously though, I think this finding is pretty stupid. I have cats that are obviously self-aware. I've had a huge mirror leaning against a wall at floor level for years and the cats see themselves in it all of the time. One of them is a little skittish, but he doesn't get freaked out from his own reflection. The other cat is extremely vain and likes to lay in front of the mirror so that he can look at himself.
I, for one, welcome our new feathered overlords.
does this surprise anyone? it's a well-known fact we're only the 3rd most intelligent species on the planet.
Power to the Penguin!
Mind you, using my hand and thumbnail as a tool for self-gratification is not normal behaviour.
Nor legal, I suspect.
I have a cat who responds to what happens in a mirror: if I reach toward her from behind, she watches in the mirror and arches her neck or back to come in contact with my hand. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my cat is self-aware -- but I *would* be surprised to learn that she's the lowest thing on the totem pole who is.
This particular version of self-awareness isn't a higher cognitive function, but more one to stop it fighting with it's reflection in ponds... who really knows.
I'm still not sure most of my co-workers are self-aware.
My dad went through 4 months of torment, kept alive by medicine's advances when, under normal circumstances, he would have died.
The heart attack that began it all caused Vascular Dementia. He didn't know what day it was or where he was but he recognised everyone. He couldn't say much that made sense but he could remember the poems he learnt as a kid.
He knew that he was dying, though, and tried to fight it by being useful (in his mind, at least). Note that I said "being useful", not "seeming useful": it wasn't a show. For example, he woke up one night and went around his ward collecting pieces of paper (e.g. tissues), then went into a common room and threw them on the fire - but that fire was an electric heater with fake coals (of the type he had at home).
Damn! Posted in HTML format while I'm used to plain text. This is what my post should have looked like:
> Sure, that's what they claim. However, since cells are actually "analog" how do you simulate them in a digital environment? So you give each important characteristic 256 discrete values? 512? How many is "enough"?
Suppose we use 32 bits for each important characteristic, giving us 4294967296 different values.
> Even small rounding errors can have huge impacts on overall results. So, they might be able to perform a simulation of 22 million neurons and 11 billion synapses, but these are just an approximation.
Since tens of thousands of neurons die each day without causing my brain to stop functioning (or even function noticably different compared to last month), I think those small rounding errors would be completely irrelevant. The brain is obviously able to cope with small errors.
I can't believe there isn't one "Heckle and Jeckle" post!
Ravens are common in parts of the Rocky Mountains. Some times they will form a flock (murder) and will fly in circles around climbers. The last time I heard of this it was from a climber who said that he felt like he was "communing with nature".
Another climber explained that the ravens would circle big horn sheep until they lost their orientations and would fall to their deaths. The ravens would then eat them. "You weren't communing with nature, they were just trying to kill you." he said to the other climber.
IANA neurologist, but a neocortex on the neurological scale is a gross physical structure, telling you, in and of itself, little about function. Why is it a surprise that similar functionality can develop in the brains of creatures (lacking that *particular* gross structure)? Particularly where they diverged from our line a very long time ago?
That kind of thinking is comparable with phrenology.
Yeah, I also often feel like God is the elephant in the middle of the room around here. :/
I thought it was just gibberish...should have looked it up I guess.
sorry for laughing at you Iggy.
Yes, yes, being self-aware is good. But what is the air speed velocity of an unladen Magpie?
Both my cat and dog can recognize themselves in a mirror quite easily and its pretty easy to tell just by their personality that they are very much self aware... Hey everyone, throw some money my way! I'd like to study the effects of whether or not someone can remain happy from never having to work a job again.
All this talk of intelligent species...I'll be impressed when they can plan and work together as one to achieve important goals. Like form an army to fight back against the humans!
The only species we care about is the one that can best us on the battleground. You gotta have a lot of extra time on your hands to ponder the equality of humans and animals. Usually we are too busy to give a fuck about animals, much less each other.
I'd stop believing that elephants exist when I get the evidence.
I guess that is the difference between us, isn't it?
Heroes die once, cowards live longer.
I knew this 50 years ago. Heckle and Jeckle are obviously self aware.
I watched tons of heckyll and jekyll cartoons as a kid.
The above post is an editorial, the poster cannot and will not be held responsible for all or in part for it's contents
I understand that even some Washington politicians can recognize themselves. Now that is shocking!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I had a moment of terror thinking that Australian Magpies had turned out to be smarter than expected.
That would move them up from being little balls of random terror from the air to being capable of specifically targeting me, which I've always suspected anyway.
Just like so much in Australia, they're like a normal magpie except they want to kill you.
Paul "TBBle" Hampson
Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
Keas are one of the most intelligent creatures on this planet. They can recognize their own image in a mirror *very quickly* even if they haven't seen a mirror before..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kea
Of course it is now threatened with extinction thanks to retarded humans killing it and others putting up a tax money to kill it. Fortunately, it is now protected species.
Don't give us all so much credit. There are a lot of things hard-wired into an animal's brain that comes from millions of years of evolution, and other things that come from the organism's experiences.
For instance, a heterosexual man can't help but look at a pretty girl, which annoys the hell out of their wives.
You have it reversed. Perhaps we don't deserve credit because our religious and cultural traditions of monogamous marriage conflict with our (and most other mammalian species') evolutionary drive to spread our DNA as far and wide as possible. I have long said that monogamy is contrary to male human nature - at least men under 60 not receiving testosterone replacement therapy and/or Viagra. One could argue that the short-term romantic love is an adaptation to get the male to stick around long enough to provide for and defend his offspring - then it wears off and he is often gone to spread his DNA seed some more - but for the checks of cultural and religious definitions of "right" and "wrong" - not to mention the cost of divorce and child support.
Some women who bother to learn about and understand men should know this (and I have had the odd girlfriend who does, and tolerated it with an eye-roll and a shake of her head), and that merely looking at other women in a non-disrespectful manner is not "wrong," just the nature of the male. Of course, it's the flirting, then the touching part that becomes the problem. Sadly, the PC perspective is to call men "pigs" or "dogs" for reacting pursuant to millions of years of evolution (and for the modern pussified male to feel bad about such desires). But God forbid a woman acts emotionally or irrationally during her period and you are a dog or pig for pointing it out. Well, if you want equality, ladies, you've got to take the good with the bad. We are flawed too! So deal.
If you think I am wrong, or somehow socialization is the problem, look at gay guys. I am always somewhat amused when I see a (presumably committed) gay male couple and both of them are furtively checking me out. Guys will be guys, gay or not. Now tell me that is due to society's conditioning!
To me the great irony is that the major religions have figured out this aspect of the male nature. That is, men are tempted by other women. Unfortunately (for women and the men who like to leer at them), the religious answer is to make women dress modestly and in some religions, not even talk to other men. Yeah, the men have the "problem" and you make the women (and non-religious men) suffer?
And for the record mods, politically incorrect does not equal flamebait or troll. I really believe this shit.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
i though that was the funniest thign when i first moved to australia.
the magpies over there attack their own mirror reflection.
doesn't that contradict this research?
In my local area (South Australia) we have alot of magpies, and none of them are self aware. Its quite common for magpies here to attack their own reflection in mirrors and windows, often injuring themselves in the process. If they dont injure themselves they keep going, which results in an annoying "thump" from the window every 15 seconds as the magpie attacks it.
In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
Given how much you drink Steve, I am not sure I believe you(-:
Some years ago I had a house on a very large piece of land in the Adelaide Hills, in South Australia.
Many magpies lived in the surrounding trees.
I lost count of the number of times that when I arrived home from work at about 5:30PM and found a bunch of 20 or more Magpies were standing very close together in the middle of the driveway, babbling away as they do. They were not eating, and were literally standing shoulder to shoulder.
The odd thing was it was always around that time of day.
It looked for all the world as though they were having a resident magpie association meeting, and discussing something somewhat vigourously.
It certanly made me think!(About Hitchcocks The Birds!)
"They show intelligence: Problem solving intelligence!"
In the area I live, there are quite a lot of homeless dogs. No one controls how they are breeding, I expect this will become a problem in the future, but so far the dogs seem to enjoy themselves.
I've noticed that very often dogs cross the road on a zebra (crosswalk), and they keep crossing there even after the road markings are worn off. Perhaps they remember the absolute location (i.e. the road marks have nothing to do with it), or maybe they remember that it was there, or maybe they use the presence of the traffic lights to figure out that the place is used for crossing.
Also, they wait for the traffic lights to switch to the right state. This is a tough one, because there are stoplights for pedestrians, and for drivers. A pedestrian's green is the equivalent of a driver's red - thus a dog cannot use colour alone to figure out what is going on.
Also, according to this article http://www.puplife.com/Shop/Control/fp/SFV/32255/view_page/How-Dogs-See-Color they cannot see green, so I guess they know when their turn is by waiting for the "NOT red" state.
The saddest poem
Well, going for the feet is pretty ingenious. Take out a few feathers and they can still fly. Bruise its head, and it can still fly. Take out an eye, and it can still fly.
But take out its feet, and it can't ever land again (well, crash land obviously), nor can it take off properly.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
The magpie(s) looked genuinely intimidated, they were trying to get away despite being much bigger.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
My cat often sits in front of the mirror and practices her 'fighting stances'. It's obvious she knows it's herself in the mirror, and not some feline intruder.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
If I saw proof that all the elephants I've ever seen were hoaxes or hallucinations, I could be convinced. But it isn't likely to happen.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Some ancient philosopher or other says, "Oooh, ooh, I'm self aware, and I'm human, therefore animals aren't self aware," and we fall hook, line and sinker for it for the rest of Christendom. Stupid humans, too.
"I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
You (or someone who looks like you) must have done something to piss them off in the past. Apparently, crows (and I suppose their relatives, magpies) can recognize the faces of human enemies.