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Fun Things To Do With a Math Or Science Degree?
bxwatso writes "My niece just took the ACT and got a perfect score on the math section. 25 years ago, when I took the test, the kids who aced the math section were pretty special. Her score, combined with straight A's so far in high school, suggest to me that she might be able to go to a top university (MIT?) based on her math aptitude. The rub is that she doesn't like math or science, even though she finds them easy. She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask: What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?"
My first girlfriend have like a perfect score (not just math, but 36 composite score) and are ranked in the top 5 in our class across 500+ students. She got a B.A. in elementary education last year. Probably an influence from her pastor.
New Economic Perspectives
Well you could ball it up and try and shoot it into a waste basket from a distance.
Make it into a paper aeroplane.
Burn it
Origami perhaps..
Yeah, that's all the fun things I can think of doing with a degree...
With her mathematical/scientific aptitude and overall intellectual capability, there's one very simple and satisfying career choice!
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
You could calculate how much it costs to fly to China or India, which is where you'll be going if you want a job outside of teaching.
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I hear there's casting for a new series called Φbonacci...
Graduate level economics is almost indistinguishable from graduate level math (or physics), but avoids some of that "hard sciences" feel.
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I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask: What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?
Wall Street? We are talking 4 years from now so there is time for it to recover.
A math and science background is good even if she doesn't directly use it. An MBA on top of an engineering degree can take her far in this world.
Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
While not everyone's idea of fun, math skills can be put to good use in quantitative finance and it can be extremely lucrative. The sector has melted down for the moment but it will recover.
Most prerequisites for medicine (or dentistry, veterinary medicine, or chiropractic school) are science classes. If she does well as math and science, she may way to consider those paths.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Plenty of people go to MIT and don't end up in "nerdy professions"...actually that's probably true for the majority of people. If she can make it into someplace like MIT, she should go regardless of her exact interests...they will change, and there are certainly more than enough opportunities to keep her occupied. Just look at the Media Lab site http://www.media.mit.edu/ for example.
-MIT '93
At my mid-level university, one quarter of all students who made it past the second year in my rigorous program had perfect scores on both sections. The test really isn't that difficult these days, and even a moderate amount of targeted prep combined with a targeted curriculum puts you in a strong position; put her in a Putnam and we'll see what she's made of. MIT is the sort of unpleasant experience that should be reserved for those who genuinely want it.
Mastering the advanced concepts in Math and science is a lot more involved then High School. So if there is no interest, brilliance now could translate into mediocrity.
Those tabs don't add themselves, you know.
And it's definitely not nerdy.
Baseball statistician popped into my mind immediately, if she likes sports.
There's also a lot of number crunching in politics, too, and there's the potential of doing quite a bit of good for society. Or evil. You know, whatever she's into.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
You could explain to her that neither math nor science in general is a `nerdy' profession, that she will outgrow her adolescence and that she will very soon hardly remember the names of her high school classmates. That there are peers out there to be had that are considerably more valuable than those who might have instilled in her that fear of nerdiness. That, in fact, she should do whatever it is she may want to do.
Not the traditional sort... http://www.ekac.org/transgenicindex.html
not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science
There are some areas of scientific research that really aren't all that terribly nerdy. What are her hobbies? If there is something that she does for fun, she may be able to find a scientist that works on making it better...
Not all components of scientific research happen in traditional lab environments.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
You mentioned what she's good at. Try to find out what she likes and see if there's a match there. Sure, she's got the potential, but if she's not happy doing it - even if she follows it through, she's doing it for the wrong reasons. She'll probably not be happy doing it.
First off, congratulations!
Don't write off MIT just yet! Humanities majors at MIT still take the same core math and science classes as engineers. We have a stellar economics program (Bernake and many federal reserve bank chiefs hail from MIT), a growing music program, literature, history, political science, and more. There's pre-med too, if she wants. Encourage your niece to keep her options for majors open as she chooses her college!
As do most women in programming and the games industry which is why I find it ridiculous to pander to all this women in the games industry bullshit.
Let her do what she wants.
not necessarily as an astronaut. She could be an engineer or a technical manager at NASA.
The largest prime factor of my UID is 263267.
Federal Agent? Whether it be FBI, NSA, DEA, DHS etc. They need 'nerdy' people. Jobs in hot areas for them are Forensic Computing, Forensic Accounting, etc. I sure there are more but those require a math/analytical mind. Plus there's potential to shoot someone...
As a kid, I was always interested in math and science and got a B.S. in astrophysics planning on going for a Ph.D. After taking a break from school, i discovered a "higher calling" if you will, and am in law school.
I'm still in my first year, and at the beginning I felt like my science background was completely useless. Now that finals are approaching I realize just how critical having an analytical mind is. To provide some hard evidence, the Legal Essay Exam Writing System (LEEWS) talks about how generally people with math or science backgrounds do better than those with english or poly sci backgrounds because they're better able to view the law as a tool (a formula) and know how to apply it to the facts (the variables).
Only dead fish swim with the stream...
If she enjoys psychology (or at maybe at this point just liked to talk on the phone a lot) she may want to consider that as a possibility. Research psych requires a lot of statistical and analytical skills
I was pretty gifted in mathematics when I was young, to the point I would easily win school-wide maths competitions despite not working and having skipped a grade. I never worked much on it anymore until my natural aptitudes weren't enough to keep up during high school (I must point out that I'm French and not American), and I got to college (CS) without even knowing what a complex number was or what the sigma sign represented. Then I dropped out of high school for numerous reasons, one being that I performed too poorly due to my lack of interest and investment, particularly in mathematics.
However at that time I had an idea which sounded pretty damn exciting, namely a spectrograph and spectrogram synthesiser, so I started this project and picked up C and digital signal processing, which progressively involved more and more mathematics until I would know everything about complex numbers, Fourier transforms and negative frequencies and would start scratching maddeningly long equations on sheets of paper.
Before I picked that up I thought maths were some sort of pointless intellectual masturbation that only really served mad scientists who write papers about crap like string theory, but when I found out how it relates to all that is multimedia, and even to our senses of sight and audition, it all became very alive and interesting, and the point is, with that sort of stuff you can do anything you want. You can make your own synthesiser and make music out of it, you can create your own visual effects, or you can work for a space agency's contractor and work on systems that will be sent in space, probably a handful of other stuff that could be "creative and not too nerdy". Not too sure what "not too nerdy" involves..
You just got troll'd!
I got a perfect score on my SAT's and ACT's. Graduated in the top 5 of graduate class at Cornell (1987) with a double Masters in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering.
I've been a highly paid male prostitute ever since. No kidding. Just ask my pim..err boss. I earn (well over) six figures a year and all I have to do is take it up the ass 5 days a week (occasionally 6)....
Tell your niece to become an entertainer or learn how to play a sport well (if she's black). She'll make more and have a hell of a lot better life than mucking around with technology all day long.....
Near-perfect or even perfect scores on standardized combined with perfect grades in high school are no 'guarantee' of admission to MIT, Stanford, and their like, even with the standard set of varsity sports, founding or foundational members of clubs, student government positions, etc. I for one did everything conceivable under the sun (start As, perfect and near-perfect ACTs, SATs, etc), varsity sports, student government leadership positions, etc. Didn't even get waitlisted at MIT and Stanford, just flat rejected. I'm not bitter, but I do being distinctly surprised at the time :)
Best of luck to your (i'm assuming sophomore or junior in high school niece); may she have more luck than i did =-]
That being said, strong math and science skills in a business program can be very, very handy, especially since most people at undergrad business schools don't have them. It can be a massive differentiator down the road. So I guess I'd say just go for business. It sounds like your niece is very social, and combined with a good math and science background, that should mean a very powerful jump start to a career.
Architecture, 3D game programming, bio-informatics, computational finance, math education.
I think the question to ask is what would bring her the most joy, which might be the thing that challenges her. She should try a little of everything, and find the thing that engages her, makes her feel alive and driven.
I'd suggest looking into Howard Gardeners Multiple Intelligences writing to get an idea of the scope of the situation.
All the technology in the world won't hide your lack of vision, talent, or understanding.
Seriously. It's her life. As long as it's legal, ethical, and either it pays the bills, it doesn't matter if she's a garbage collector or a business tycoon. Yes, it may be better for society if she were to somehow use her talents, but if her interests lie elsewhere support her in her chosen path.
Give her your love, your emotional support, and to the extent you can and she needs it, practical/cash support.
Now, if you'd said she's trying to make up her mind between a math/engineering profession and one that doesn't require those skills, then I would strongly recommend steering her in the direction that her talents lie. But from your submission, it sounds like she's made up her mind.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It is unsurprising that someone might not like math or the hard sciences. Fact is, until perhaps late grad school, one does not even start to see what goes on in current research. On the other hand, in, say, an econ course, first year students can pretty well understand current debates among professionals.
However there are two major advantages to working in math or hard sciences:
1. You get to discover things nobody has understood before or known before, and get to know that these will be added to the patrimony of human knowing, pretty much no matter how much people mess up in the future (where advances in many other fields can be spoiled by future generations all too easily).
2. The questions you get to answer are interesting and vital...where else can you ask "what is space?", "what is time", "what is matter" or the like, or answer basic questions of how the universe is connected? (These are physics mainly; other sciences have others).
Then there is a third point: the questions you ask are likely to be enough to spend a career on. A youth might not appreciate this, but it is a terrible thing to set one's life goals too low and reach them; you then have to find or invent a new goal and not everyone succeeds in doing this who gets to such a point.
Asking someone in high school to choose a career is moreover premature. Get her to take some more courses in the area, but as a liberal art so she learns other areas also, keeping her options open. If she indeed has a good mind, she may then find how shallow other fields are by comparison and come to appreciate her ability to go deeper.
I'm sure she'll figure it out.
Hey, I'm currently attending Harvey Mudd, and it seems to me like from just my experience here, 'math people' aren't destined to be number crunchers. Especially here, where augmenting engineering with liberal arts is intrinsic to the curriculum, I've been exposed different examples of science applied in fun and cool ways. For example: We had a chem major who went on to run a winery. cs majors who works on Hollywood special effects. Two physics majors who are now astronauts. One of the people I know is going to try and use his chem degree to restore old artwork. Another, an astrophysicist, is trying to spend a year abroad after he graduates in order to write a book about how different cultures perceive our universe. Last year, we had a research team of engineers design surfboards for 9Fish (extensive testing sessions required *wink*). The way I see it, most things that are 'fun' and 'cool' aren't pure math and science, but are never void of them either. The extent to which your daughter can apply a degree in technical fields, especially if she's *that* good at it, is limited only by her creativity.
Anything. Math is the basis for biology, music, the arts (even if that math looks like chaos theory) and just about everything except (and maybe not except) philosophy. Actuary... Pay the "dues" for a few years then make big dollars and having been bored to tears the first years, get to figure out interesting problems. Like the likelihood of a death on a space trip to Mars. Useful in telling NASA how much their insurance will cost. Try to avoid being the bean counter set where you have the job of balancing law suit payouts versus thickness and grade of metal in vehicle gas tanks... But the MBA or PHD in economics from say Wharton combined with a bachelors in compsci, hard sciences, engineering, or even physics would put her a world ahead.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
you know, fractal scarves and tesseract mittens with quasicrystal fabric patterns
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Industrial designer or architect, depending on whether you want to design either the props or the stage of everyday life. Seriously, both are interesting, creative and fun, require an analytic mind without rubbing it in, and can be mixed with their more "serious" sister disciplines (mechanical engineering and civil engineering, respectively) at will. You have all the benefits of being able to "geek out" with the technical fundamentals, while you also have the whole human factors side. I'm an industrial design student and I find it a really well rounded field for us geeks.
You might begin by asking what she has against the nerd. Of course, there is always the chance she might begin by pointing to Slashdot...
You sell it to her as being able to see the stars. There is some pretty crazy math involved in this, and you could probably get her looking at NASA and stuff like that.
While I realize that this is still nerdy, there is some really fun things / ideas about being an astronaut (or at least directly helping them) that can come from space. Hell, have her look into space business, space travel / space hotels and stuff... it is the future after all.
If that doesn't work... use her interests. Ex: if she likes drawing, go for a civil engineering degree. Don't be an engineer though, be an architect / designer. Lots of money opportunities for an architect who can prove that the buildings not only look good, but will actually stand! Either way, and engineering degree might be good no matter what she does, since it's a BIG resume booster... even if she ends up going into pottery making or becoming a chef.
If she got straight A's, she must be pretty good at other subjects as well, so why are you so focused on math and science? What's interesting or fun is a matter of personal opinion, so it really doesn't matter what people here (or you, for that matter) think. Let her decide what she wants to do.
People knowledgeable/with degrees in math and science find themselves in high demand in a field where you spend an entire year trying to figure out how to properly generate and render the materials composing of Iron Man's suit.
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it has to look good, make the client happy, and stand up.
Let her find whatever she enjoys. Math and science are tools, and there are a number of fields that leverage these tools at the graduate level. Medicine, behavioral science, business, etc. all have heavy math when you get beyond the "intro to -" level.
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Wh Nuf said.
Financial engineering... you make at least half a million dollars, its kind of like business + engineering
...I made it through first year of university that way. Didn't know what I wanted to be, knew what I was good at, did almost twice the regular study points with very little effort and all As and Bs. And after that year I didn't have that much more clue what I wanted to be, but the last thing I wanted to work with was pure math. My education after that went a bit in all directions but mostly economics (not exactly that exciting a subject if that's what you seek), but then my work experience derailed from that again. At the moment I'm a consultant working with project portfolios. It's got a good amount of the "hard" stuff with project schedules, resource allocations, scoring models and so on and yet there's more than enough "soft" problems to keep it from getting boring. And with considerable rotation of assignments there's always new challenges to be met.
If she's doing good not only in math but is able to apply solid logic and reason on other subjects too, I'd say she can have almost any job she wants since those people are always short in supply. I'm probably very biased here but I see a legal logic in a contract, a medical logic in medicine, a perceptional logic in marketing and so on, unless you're too fixated on finding perfect, mathmatically correct answers it's a boon in pretty much every subject. Just remember that in the real world, the answers are only as good as the input and the model. Everyone knows garbage in, garbage out but if your model is junk it's just as bad or worse. Still, considering how many that seem to act without any logic at all you'll always be better off...
You don't get into a good school like MIT with just straight-A's and perfect test scores. You need to establish that you're a leader with real character and motivation. Your extra-curricular activities and your choice of electives speak highly here.
As to what to do, that's for her to decide. She merely needs to be exposed to the options. Encourage her to follow whatever path she likes, but to consider schools with good engineering/math/science options for her to be exposed to later.
To more directly answer your question, psychology and medicine come to mind, as do many of the tech-based artistic fields. I recall only a few years ago that the head of Northeastern University's multimedia program (within the art school rather than the computer science school) was noting that there was a great deal of scripting and other coding skills being employed by his students for their movies. The natural next step was a collection of dual-majors trickling in, marrying Computer Science with Multimedia, Digital Art, Music Technology, and Game Design (which is still in the final approval stages).
But really, that's not important. The "right question" to ask her is: "what do you want to do, and what interests do you have right now?" It's completely normal for her to have no idea. That simply means that the college she chooses must be versatile in many directions, including where she excels by the numbers AND where she is interested (or may be interested). The point here is that you should not tell her what she should do. Just open a few doors.
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Field work. Best thing I've ever done with my CS degree. Defense and petroleum are two industries with lots of opportunities in this area. Combines the engineering background with the excitement and engagement of hands on, rubber meets the road, work. The systems tend to be complicated and the stakes high providing a challenge and sense of accomplishment and satisfaction I've never felt sitting in a cube or a lab designing and developing systems. Nerds need not apply.
"She doesn't want to be an engineer..."
"...not too nerdy professions"
... and 'engineer' or 'technical manager at NASA' is what you come up with? Really???? :O
Whooooosh!
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
If she has aptitude for math, science and engineering, she probably has, in broader terms, aptitude for logic, reasoning and (maybe) critical thinking.
Those general things are going to give her an edge in just about any job that requires any kind of thinking. So she can choose just about any path, as far as I can see - her intellect will be useful even outside of math, science or engineering.
(I'm saying this as a frustratingly rational "quick learner" who scored well, though not perfectly, on the SAT, then proceeded to drop out of college after 1 semester, and has gone on to do cool stuff in computing, music journalism, writing, photography, astronomy and international affairs.)
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Well I can sympathize with your niece, as probably many here can. In high school and college, I did extremely well in writing and English classes. More than one teacher suggested that I take up journalism or some other form of writing as a career. But the truth is that I hate writing. I mean, I have no problem with the occasional Slashdot post, email, or blog entry. But to sit down and plan out a structured approach to a written piece or spend a few hours bashing out a draft... yuck. I can do it, it comes naturally, but almost wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Thankfully, I was good at something else as well and it happened to be something I enjoyed: information technology.
Unless they're top-ranking geniuses, most smart people are good at more than one thing. I'm betting your niece is as well. What else does she like besides math and science? There's probably something (possibly something she already told you but you aren't telling us) but you're just trying to lure her into the geek trades because that's where you want her to be. That's just not the way it works.
It's also possible that she really doesn't know what she wants to do. It's common (and often a good thing) for pre-college individuals to have no idea what to make of their future. One great thing about college is that it exposes much more of the world to people which helps them make up their minds about what to do. And of course there are people who are 40 and still aren't sure what to do with their life. Everybody's different.
Although much about a person can change after the age of 18, almost all of it is self-change. Even if you were in her immediate family, you're exceedingly unlikely to influence your niece's decisions about her future.
I'm pretty good at math, but don't particularly like it. Also, science is cool and I like reading about it, but it has always looked like a pretty dreary profession.
Basically, though, math skills are indicative of structured, logical thought. That is useful everywhere.
Don't push her into something just because she's good at it. Let her do whatever she wants. If she's smart, she'll probably be fine.
...are you one of those way-out-there creepy uncles? I mean, you DID just submit an Ask /. about science career possibilities for your niece.
Getting to *your* question though, if she got a perfect score in math, but hates math, she's probably a good candidate for theater or music. When I was a film major, I knew a lot of weirdos like your niece.
Some of the fairly lucrative occupations for quantitative people are:
actuarial science
anything involving statistical inference
quantitative finance
"What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?"
You are implicitly assuming here that your niece WANTS to make use of these things in her profession, which is a pretty bad thing to assume. Why don't you ask her what she wants?
I've experienced this constantly in my life. Relatives of all sorts tell me "You should become a doctor" or "You should become a radiologist" or whatever else. I turn around and say back to them, "Hmm, sounds like if you think radiology is so wonderful, maybe you should go back to school and become a radiologist."
It is, IMO, really rude to just start suggesting things to people. ASK what they like and what they want to do. If they don't know, there is no reason they even need to know yet.
Ask your niece what she is interested in and support her in her choice, or if she doesn't know what she wants to do, help her lead a life where it's ok not to know yet. Don't be a dick and try to force/coerce her into math or science just because she is good at it and you want her to do it. Being good at something doesn't automatically dictate that you will enjoy a career in that field.
This may be off-topic, but what about those who do well in other areas, which aren't their necessary majors? Should they switch, or go with what they "want" to do?
Not necessarily working for the show, but doign the various things they do. Design, destruction, whatever.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
So she's good at math. There's nothing that forces her to go into something math-related.
Tell her to follow her dreams. If her dreams happen to intersect with her skills, which also happen to intersect with profitability, she's be rich, successful, and happy. If they don't, you might have to cut out the "rich" or "successful" part.
Why do you want her to go into math or science if she has no interest? What makes you think she'll put the effort into something she finds deathly dull?
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You are going to need more than straight A's and a perfect math score to get into MIT. You have to be black or some other minority. It's called affirmative action, and your daughter and your niece is a victim of it.
I'm a woman who aced the math ACT but didn't feel like studying math or science. I was into foreign languages. So now I have a bachelor's in Spanish and a master's in French literature, and I'm a web developer. Go figure.
What might have convinced me to study one of the hard sciences is seeing people actually at work using them. If I had met any pharmaceutical researchers or civil engineers or software developers and seen what they do at work every day, I might have found it more interesting. As it was, I had no frame of reference for working with math or science, and therefore no interest.
A friend of mine tracks whales in Hawaii via their songs and sonar clicks; she really enjoys it.
I used to travel to various tropical islands setting up nuke detectors for the UN; that was a blast! Google "dream job IEEE", they do an article each year about 10 really cool engneering jobs.
A few years ago, I returned to university to study mathematics because computer science is too easy and I needed a challenge in my life. Along the way, I met this kid who was brilliant. He and I took Calc I and III together and he had close to perfect scores on all exams. I was surprised to learn that it was very easy for him, and thus boring. He decided to go into mechanical engineering. Now this is math related, but he was only interested in taking the bare minimum in math. It seemed like a waste, but for the same reasons that I took math instead of something easy, he didn't take some more math.
I've since met at least a dozen people who were excellent at math and didn't pursue it because it was boring for them as well.
I think all these strengths with no real interest in pursuing mathematics or science may lend to her being interested in linguistics.
Sounds like she's perfect for counting cards at Vegas. We've all seen the movies! There ya go! Done
First, one of the reasons we take a variety of subjects in college is to discover just what we enjoy and find interesting. One doesn't know ahead of time what's going to "float one's boat".
Who knows, if she takes some real math she might find something that turns her on. Maybe not. No loss.
Secondly, I think today's generation needs to be mindful of the need for flexibility. You're probably going to have several careers, not A career. Y'all should get as good a general education as you can. It will give you more options later. The young woman in question is obviously a very bright person. I wish her happiness and a fulfilling life. She should go to a good school. I'm sure she will. If she doesn't have a guess what she wants to concentrate on, she should go to a school with lots of options so she can experiment and explore her interests. This probably means a large University.
To repeat. This is just the beginning of a ( hopefully ) long life. Take your time. Explore. Find what you enjoy learning.
If the girl's that smart, she'll figure things out. There are artistic disciplines where math skills are useful, but I'm not going to name them. She can find them if she wants to. and if she doesn't, a lot of unwanted advice isn't going to accomplish anything.
Besides, she might well change her tune one she's been in college a while. If she has a natural talent for math, but hates the subject, she's probably been forced to sit through a lot of uninspired teaching. If she gets into a decent school, she'll be exposed to instructors with some capacity for instilling intellectual excitement. Then her math skills might begin to blossom. Provided a lot of meddling older relatives don't make her dig in her heels.
Testing well, not wanting to work as an engineer or scientist (good luck landing a good research position if that rumor starts getting around)... if you're lucky you have a future medical doctor on your hands.
My sister was the same way: intuitively good at science, but socially programmed to not like it (is this more common in women?). It looks like she's going to study medicine. After having multiple family members, then friends, then professors tell her that she was good at scientific thinking she gradually veered towards a field she could both enjoy and excel in. I think forcing her to study a hard science would have been a big mistake.
Just tell her that everyone changes their major (more or less true) and to take her time deciding what to do with her life.
went through elementary and high school with straight-A math grades: it was just easy and no big deal to be top of the class.
but I did music and acting on the side, which I liked.
then they told me I should get into math, sciences, engineering, since those are the IMPORTANT professions.
so I did, while keeping music and acting on the side.
decades later, I still like music and acting, and math/sciences/engineering are mostly boring now. sure they do bring some income, but if I could go back I'd choose a career in performing arts.
moral of the story: let kids choose what they like, not just what they're good at.
by doing what they care for, they'll get better at it, and become better professionals too.
My first advice is to not pressure her. Give her some space, don't try to influence her too hard. People that find their profession should come about it in a way by doing things they like, not because it'll please someone else.
As a college-level student, I'm finding that the way that we learn science and math in high school is far different from the way we learn it in college. And it's been a big turnoff for many of my friends who were strongly into math in high school and then tried to pursue it further in college.
Let her do what she wants. Maybe she'll gravitate towards math/science once she finds out what she really wants to do and all the things you can do with it. Let her be creative and explore what she's really into though. Besides, undergraduate education isn't the most important thing; where you get your Masters/PhD is far more important if you choose that track and by sending her to a liberal arts college, you still allow her to keep her doors open. Best thing if she doesn't know what she wants to do is to go to a big university - that way you get opportunities in anything you could want.
But honestly, I always thought that programming is really cool....
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Her school experience with math is probably limited to figuring (arithmetic, algebra, calculus), which is nothing like what real mathematicians do (geometrical proofs are closer-- if geometry was her favorite math class then she is fonder of "real mathematics" than figuring, a good sign). Similarly, a career in the sciences is hard to extrapolate from a typical high school science course. In both cases, she has probably yet to see the creative side of science and math, which is where all the fun is. I'm a bit too tired to think of concrete demonstrations for her, but I might say to her, "Look, you have a talent, and life is smoother if you're working in a field in which you have talent. Of course, if you don't actually like the field then talent won't help, but try it and keep an open mind." You might try arranging a meeting with a research scientist, mathematician, or engineer. (There are also high school level competitions which could be fun, although they do look geeky.)
Of course, if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it-- but I hear a lot about the subtle pressures which keep the male-female ratios in physics and engineering high, and so I wonder if her reluctance is due to personal taste or peer pressure (or maybe even some teacher one time told her she was bad at math, and it stuck with her regardless of current successes).
The salary level for economists is generally way way higher than for scientists, even at lower positions. In fact it is so much higher it rubs away anything with a "'hard sciences' feel".
The sad part is that econometrics can be as fun as "hard science", but with a decent salary.
When you are below 30 it might not matter, but later with kids and mortgages... :)
The world has many challenging problems that require the brightest minds to solve. Environmental, architecture, energy, etc. These overlap with the traditional math&sciences core but if she's motivated to "make a difference", these will be challenging on a different level , requiring social, political AND technical skill to implement correctly. Urge her to steer away from useless academic programs and focus on programs that provide 'real world' opportunities.
A good ACT score doesn't means she is a math genius nor that she needs to find a career that requires good math skills. Math is a prereq for life in general and pretty much all careers today require good logical and analytical skills that depends on strong math knowledge. Having a good ACT math score should be the rule, not the exception. Unfortunately every day we see more and more stupid people out there. Being "normal" makes you "intelligent" and this is starting to become an exception. Look at the average number of books individuals read in the US per year and compare this with 25 years ago. You will be astonished.
Whoa, time out. Just because someone has aptitude for something doesn't mean that she needs to build on that skill set in terms of her academic and professional choices.
The most important thing is that she has that skill set. I actually work as an ACT tutor, and people who have the natural ability to score perfectly on the math section are few and far between. I also work with a lot of people whose parents try to come up with "suitable" professions for their kids, and as a tutor I can always see the look of exasperation on the kid's faces when the students just want to put all the career stuff aside and just explore.
The reason I'm taking this route is that your neice's ability to reason well in mathematics will serve her well in --any-- profession she chooses. Sometimes the most successful people are those who drift into a supposed "soft" profession with a very analytical mind, and then find an interesting problem and are off to the races.
Rather than focusing on careers, you should focus on avenues of interest. What books does she like? What other things does she like: theater, movies, activities? Find that out, feed her interests with suggestions, and the career impulse will take care of itself. I fell into my interests by accident and by drifting around for awhile; very few people know what they want to do and focus in like a laser on it. More often, there's a lot of amalgamation from disparate sources, and piecing together new perspectives from old. Especially with the economy the way it is, encouraging people with professions rather than interests is a great way to perpetuate the belief that certain jobs require certain skillsets. When the job market can pull from a diverse pool of talent, it makes the market that much more diverse and interesting.
Odds are good that whatever she decides, she will end up changing her mind anyway. Virtually no one I went to school with is still doing what they started out in school for. A few are, but the majority spent a few years working (or trying to work) in their chosen fields before finding something that grabbed their 'adult' interest.
Personally I 'wasted' my talent and school years (according to my dad) studying technical theatre. 10 years later I make visual effects software. I use the lessons I learned in school every day, just not the way I expected at the time.
So don't sweat it. She will likely land in the right place for her eventually.
- sarcasm is just one more service we offer -
MIT was pretty fun. It was tons of work, but a great college experience and great people too.
She should become a Banker. I think Investment Banking will be hiring soon.
Check out the program at z-node.net ... really bringing arts and science together is not only important, but cross-disciplinary research is still a frontier in almost all universities and many hard-science fields.
You can have fun being unemployed.
Particularly female anatomy. Who better than another female to work such things out?
It's important dammit!
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
You took the wrong courses - plenty of undergraduate econ classes require fairly advanced Math - especially the ones that necessary for being able to succeed in grad school.
The econ classes divide into two different types - 1) the crap where you talk about lines on graphs where the most complicated math involved is y=mx+b. 2) The hard stuff that is required to prepare you for grad school. Most people self-select into the easy stuff.
Here's an example of an undergrad course that most every grad school econ student should have completed in their undergrad work - http://www.washington.edu/students/crscat/econ.html
ECON 481 Introduction to Mathematical Statistics (5) NW
Probability, generating functions; the d-method, Jacobians, Bayes theorem; maximum likelihoods, Neyman-Pearson, efficiency, decision theory, regression, correlation, bivariate normal. Prerequisite: STAT/ECON 311; either MATH 136 or MATH 126 with either MATH 308 or MATH 309. Recommended: MATH 324. Offered: jointly with CS&SS/STAT 481; A.
Look at those pre-reqs:
Math 126/136 - 3rd quarter of calculus or honors 3rd quarter of calculus - Introduction to Taylor polynomials and Taylor series, vector geometry in three dimensions,introduction to multivariable differential calculus, double integrals in Cartesian and polar coordinates.
Math 308 - MATH 308 Matrix Algebra with Applications (3) NW
Systems of linear equations, vector spaces, matrices, subspaces, orthogonality, least squares, eigenvalues, eigenvectors, applications. For students in engineering, mathematics, and the sciences.
MATH 309 Linear Analysis (3) NW
First order systems of linear differential equations, Fourier series and partial differential equations, and the phase plane.
MATH 324 Advanced Multivariable Calculus I (3) NW
Topics include double and triple integrals, the chain rule, vector fields, line and surface integrals. Culminates in the theorems of Green and Stokes, along with the Divergence Theorem.
They don't even bother to list differential equations as a pre-req as it is pre-req for other classes listed above.
Many years ago, I took the above mentioned ECON 481 when I was a senior in college (thinking I wanted to go on to grad school). I was very good at math and science I had tested out of freshman year calculus via AP exams (5 on the Calc BC), and physics (5 on the Physics C w/ Caculus and Physics E&M exam), and went on to take second year physics and second and third year of math and done very well in all of them.
Even with all of that preparation when it came time to take ECON 481, it was a struggle - probably the hardest class I ever took.
The real question is not how to make math intresting but how
to make a career out of whatever intrests her.
I have seen many people(my girlfreind for one) who studied
Computer Science because it was what the smart kids did
and has plenty of money in it. Only to discover that debugging
for 9-10 hours a day is not her cup of tea, and now look for other
lines of work(something with animals) even though they make excellent money
in an engeneering job they do not enjoy.
Figure out what you enjoy doing, then figure out how to make money doing it.
Some people can have a lot of skill in a subject yet still be uninterested in it and perform poorly due to their lack of interest. A relative of mine had great grades in Biology in undergrad(GPA = 3.99), so her professors pushed her into medical school. She made good grades but didn't enjoy what she was doing so after 2 years and a huge amount of debt quit. She now works in the school system and loves her job.
Telling someone that they should do something solely because they are smart will end badly. Gifted student often feel an obligation to use their gifts. This is usually good. But it can cause a gifted student to persist in a career that she doesn't enjoy. So encourage your niece to achieve, but make sure she is happy with that path first.
Okay, now that everyone here is done laughing, let me explain the logic.
I'm working my way through a CS degree. The math classes are interesting, but the CS stuff is all 'we'll pretend this is how theory works out in the real world, while pretending to teach you how the theory works in the labs.' Interesting, but not particularly useful except when teaching. Somehow, without any art background other then some highschool photography, I got into a Cyberart cross discipline class. I expected to be the hired coder, there, just working on someone else's idea. Turned out to be the best class I've ever taken.A year later, I'm working for the Art Department, writing code for 3 different grants and two class projects.
And no, CS wasn't a pre-requisite for any of these projects.
Blow stuff up.
Oh wait you mean for a career? Well, uhmm I don't know, but in her spare time, she should definitely blow stuff up.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Look dude, I'm a pretty stupid person.
Being an idiot, I've learnt a few things about smart folks: Leave them alone!
That's the problem with us stupid people. We keep trying to control, er, I mean help smart people achieve their best.
Your niece seems smart enough, but she needs time to figure out what she wants on her own. Just be there to give her anything she asks or obviously needs. The rest will take care of itself. You can be certain that whatever it is, it won't fall within the realm of your imagination, and certainly not mine.
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Lots of engineers at some point in their career get a business degree /move to management. Also one of the top careers Math Majors are go into after graduation is Financial Analysis.
If she likes it she could really excel in Business / Finance. A scientific temprament and good math / statistical skills are essential for analysis. A plus is that she will not be required to learn some of the more arcane math subjects that can turn off even people who thought they liked math. Also, her college program is less likey to consume all her free time in a way engineering programs tend to do.
Givn her scores, most business programs would probably love to take her (her gender will also help her in the admission process)
The article talks only about how good her grades are in math and how she doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. Consequently the replies have been about how she could use her math skills in other professions.
The article also states very high grades in other subjects though. So it seems to me she can be whatever she wants to be, as far as academic skills are required. Sadly though, neither the writer of the article nor the replies seem to care about what she actually DOES want to be.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
not too nerdy
Awww, too nerdy for the perfect little princess? Fuck you and her.
Maybe she can be a whore.
I would say that the starting point for any advice would have to be that whatever she wants to do is what she should do. It is more important that she is happy with her life and career; being famous, rich or doing something incredibly important is not necessarily a top priority. As Einstein once said, I believe, it isn't intelligence that does it, but creativity and hard work - both of which require a deep interest rather than aptitude.
When you say that is "good at maths" - what exactly does that mean? I was brilliant at maths in school, but unfortunately in school all you were required to learn in order to pass the tests was a handful of simply formulas and rules; when I started at mathematics at the university, I realized that I hadn't learned anything about the important bits: the methods, such as the epsilon/delta argument etc. What helped me through was that I found an interest in the more philosophical aspects of science - what is a number, what is continuity etc when you step away from the naive intuitions that we have learned?
Another thing is that when I grew up, science was cool - we felt that we just about to conquer space, faster-than-light travel was just around the corner - but looking back I think that perhaps I would actually have preferred a career in biology, which is my other, big interest. At that age - late teens - you are only beginning to realize what it is you actually want. Fortunately, it isn't too difficult to change study direction within your general area; if she has an interest in natural sciences, she could start on maths and change to biology or physics a little later.
I think my best advice for her and those around her would be to try to experience more of what eg. maths and physics are actually about at college level and beyond. Let her visit some of the places and don't try to push her in any direction; she won't be able to make an informed choice based only on the experience she has from school.
if she has an interest in fine art, either studying it as art history or creating it in her own right, then you might suggest she aim towards technical art history, heritage science, or art conservation science, whatever they may call it over there. it takes the best (and worst) of many fields and rolls it into one. it is one thing to look at an object in a museum, and it is a real thrill to take it off the wall and really study it. there is a lot of maths and science involved, but the application is unique, and there is often a artistic component is preparing the samples.
You can do nothing with it. Absolutely nothing. Unless of course, she got 99's in all her classes. But if she just got something mediocre like 93's....its not going to help.
Oh, and if she does find something decent...it's going to be a boring rest-of-her-life...she should go back to school and do something more practical -- im being totally serious.
--Mediocre Math student who had pretty good marks...but not good enough
It's a test score.
She's a smart cookie. She should not plan the rest of her life based on this.
The ACT is a standardized test, with five sections. Trying to branch out to a career based on these five paths is a false start.
A very good way to identify a career is to identify what you DON'T like. She may not like math and science (or she may not actually have a realistic idea of what those fields are).
She needs to explore. Let her. Let's be honest: her undergrad major really doesn't matter all that much, in comparison to doing well in her studies --and THAT only matters if you'll be going for higher education.
I was good at science, won lots of awards, so I just fell into majoring in Biology/Molecular Genetics. (This was before computer science degrees were mainstream, especially for women.) I realized the error of my ways within a few years of graduating. Long story short, I now direct Internet Marketing for a large company. Internet Marketing is very hot, interesting, and lucrative; some might even find it glamorous. It requires extremely strong analytical ability, as Direct/Database Marketing skills are required for the kind of Internet Marketing I do. I also direct creative, in context of both website design as well as marketing banners and emails, so I get to apply right-brain skills as well.
If she finds them easy, encourage her to take the intro calc course for math majors (even if she already knows it) and the intro physics course to satisfy the math and natural science requirements of her college/university, unless a different natural science course interests her from the get-go. She can also take the intro courses for what interests her. Then she can decide what interests her/she enjoys the most and pursue it.
This is assuming she is going into a liberal arts program. If she wants to pursue art or whatever, then she should follow her bliss.
Unless I miss my guess, she's probably drawn to glamour and popularity and fame. I think I'd paint a bright picture for her in Mechanical Engineering..., within the Auto Racing community. The teams and owners of NASCAR, F1, IRL, ALMS-Lemans and Grand-Am are constantly looking for new engineering talent. Toyota, Ford, GM, Honda, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari and Renault are just the auto makers that have teams. Most oil companies also have sponsored teams, too, McLaren engines and gearboxes, the list just goes on and on. But, the peques and bennies are the trump suit here, traveling the world to such locations as Brazil, Spain, Germany, Australia and China, just to mention a few, would be part of her job. Dining with, chatting to and generally associating with the likes of Michael Schumacher, Danica Patrick, Fernando Alonso, Felipe Massa.., all part of the job. Yeah, I think that would be something she could make a living at and more then enjoy herself in the process. I wish her luck no matter what road she takes.
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She should understand it's all perceptions. It's the perception of realizing an "opportunity" from "don't like." That what she's acquiring now AND in college are only tools to be used later. It is the experience of acquiring the degree that forms a "new" way of thinking about the possible and HOW to make it happen. I started on a degree 3 times before completing one in an entirely different area. I stayed afterwords working at the other end of the spectrum towards a second. ... at 18, ... prior to Entry. She's smart and push her to do her own research based upon the alternative consequences of her decisions. Almost like a real life DND game! ...
At this time, she should consider researching "what" she "thinks" she'd like to do. Play with it in a summer job working in it. Suggest she check the courses available from the schools she'll be qualified to attend. Again suggest a sampling working to get the basics out of the way. First two years are mostly basics and allow flexibility for sampling. Unfortunately, the Other UNIVERSITY thought is you MUST have a clear vision & focus of your career for the rest of your life
SUX
I just graduated from MIT with great degrees in CS and Physics. I want to go into fashion. If she doesn't want to, she doesn't want to, and that's that.
Your attitude and intelligence is probably the same as many others who posted here. If you haven't been promoted into Management already then I would be surprised.
Since your niece obviously doesn't want to pursue a career or education that involves either (MIT level) Mathematics or Science then it is illogical that you posted a question involving your niece that is about getting into a career that involves Mathematics and Science. What your question should have been is something like "What type of education and careers can my niece pursue that involves creativity, but without the need for MIT level Mathematics or engineering."
Your whole Slashdot article/question is an obvious Troll. You could have been more obvious (and honest) by asking something like this, "How can I manipulate my niece into pursuing an engineering career so that I can feel self-important through my niece?".
My god, it's the complete Red vs Blue set of trolls.
I wonder what they go for on ebay?
Item #xxxxxxxxxx
Matching set of trolls.
Look exactly the same except for hair. (Hair colors: Over Antagonizing Red, and Very Melancholy Blue)
(Bridge not included)
In need of a good home, and a lot of lightening up.
Buy it now?
Personally I'd reccomend Oxford as I went there for a math degree - the price for an overseas student is comparable to a top US college, but the tuition is incredible - 2-on-1 tutorial sessions with professors for 4 or 5 hours a week and top quality lectures. If she's got the skills, it's definitely worth a shot as the quality of the degree actually lives up to its market worth, something not common amongst US institutions (one of which I now teach at, hence posting anon). You get the name (let's face it - Oxford beats just about everything in terms of name recognition) the education (it really is amazingly good quality) and the experiences to set you up to do just about anything in life.
Fighter Pilot.
Hardly nerdy at all, and you need significant maths skills to get in.
You have to have a good understanding of the engineering such that you can design deliverable projects, so it is where design meets engineering.
As someone else already said, most health professions require a strong math and science aptitude and much prerequisite coursework in those areas. Strong grades in those courses do much to get into those schools. Check out pharmacy, nursing, MD, etc. These professions pay fairly decent as a bonus, but that of course shouldn't be the sole reason to pick one of these professions.
If she doesn't like math, then I would not encourage her pursue "professions that... require a talent for math." I'd support her to do whatever she is most passionate about.
Maybe she should consider becoming an (interaction) designer. Its versatile enough that it allows you to explore different fields (the situation/context you design for) and there is a constantly changing toolbox to keep things interesting. Projects can range from interactive objects to environments to systems to websites to games. There is still a lot of opportunity to actually improve the world. This is a field that allows you to use both brains and creativity to make life better, what could be more fun?
I'm sure she'll make someone a nice attractive wife if she just leaves all thatr complicated maths stuff to the men, and starts looking after cute, adorable baby kittens - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU
P.S. For our American friends, 'Cholmondeley' is pronounced 'Chumley'.
Your niece is smart, no arguing that. And as a woman she will generally do the opposite of whatever you would push her to do, no matter her aptitude haha. One important aspect in your post I see is the difference in age, you will not understand her views and it's useless to try. What you can do is sit back and provide useful real-world applicable knowledge and let her figure it all out. It's what she is good at, but if it's not what she loves....then it's all water under the bridge. Best of luck.
Hang on. When did they put away the tea leaves and numerology and start putting together working models of very complex systems like portions of an economy? You'll be telling me there are economists that consider non-linear relationships between things next.
Anecdote: The leading Australian economist's answer to a low wool price was to kill a lot of sheep to make wool scarce. That actually happened. A lot of farmers dutifully killed off most of their flocks, wool was a bit rarer but the price didn't go up because cotton exists. That's some "real world economics" as an example to show how stupidly simplistic their models are and how riduculously overcondent they are about them.
Most here work in those arenas and will suggest them rather than alternatives. Mine is a BFA w/o any painting or drawing ... alternatives. I acquired 6 programming languages and only needed the Calc prereq for more advanced courses, Calc completed in a 5 week Summer course. Currently I get to work on a solution to my Social Security Disability that am told is incurable (fortunately it just proves I'm unable to do "REAL work". Right!)
If she has the luxury of being able to take courses until she finds what she likes great, else she'll need to research, for herself, the what. Suggest she get the course menu from the school she'll attend, Summer Job her area options & have her understand consequences of this real life DND. She can always get the degree for a shoemakers job to pay the bills and return to get another for what she "loves" (hopefully before marriage).
N S A
I had top scores in math and science in high school, and I found the course material terrifically dull. However, the subjects taught in high school are not representative of careers; they contain general information intended to give useful knowledge for the average citizen.
Fortunately, there is an institution specifically designed for your daughter: the liberal arts college. She will dabble in courses pertinent to a variety of careers ranging from journalism to astrophysics. Outside the classroom she can testify in mock trial or play ultimate frisbee. Even is she is not certain of a career path at graduation, she will have a strong skill set as well as exposure to careers.
At this point, the onus is on you. Get your daughter to have as many new experiences as she can, particularly related to her interests. If she likes caring for her dog, have her shadow a physician. Also, try to have your family and friends bring up their occupations when they're over for dinner. Hopefully she will continue this exploratory trend into her undergraduate years and find something which makes her want to get up in the morning.
Your daughter is lucky to live in a country where she will have unsurpassed freedom to choose her career. She will be fine as long as she keeps an open mind.
Upon reading the original post there was a one strong association in my mind: Architecture. In the design of structures sciences and math is of extremely high importance (so the buildings won't collapse) but it's also a creative field that involves much more than just hard science.
Medicine and Sports Science :)
(The two go hand in hand - they could both come under the umbrella of "phisicianism"
" The rub is that she doesn't like math or science, even though she finds them easy. "
When I took the ACT, I got a perfect score on math as well, even though I hadn't taken a math class in the last 1.5 years, I'd been slacking off.
But... I don't care for math, either. I don't dislike it, but it doesn't excite me. Once, talking to a girl in my physics class, I said something about how only people with the most psychotic minds would major in math... to be informed that she was a math major. Ah, well.
Let's see... no engineering or "scientist" position, yet science-oriented. Doctor? I would have said genetecist, but that's probably a bit to "scientisty" for her. The awesome thing about being a doctor is that it encompasses a pretty wide range, from "I want to nurture and help little kids" to "I don't want to deal with people, I just want to cut them up." Something for every personality!
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
First. She's a girl. So. Duh. Of course she's not going to like science/math. Girls like that are one in a million, regardless of how they test. Obviously she's intelligent, but that isn't necessarily going to help her much in life. You need a goal first before you can use your brain to get you there. And some goals just don't require much brains. In a lot of fields following the orders of your supervisor without hesitancy or question and not getting too bored with drudgery, the tasks that the higher ups don't want to do, is a far more important qualification. The vast majority of jobs in the world are shit jobs, no matter how highly paid. And the sooner she accepts that fact the better off she'll be. Better to work as a prostitute at night to pay the bills and pursue her real interests, if she ever has any, in her spare time.
Maybe what she's really meant for is mathematically advanced fellatio techniques (you could help with that maybe) or cooking or dressmaking or interior design or acting. Girls are just not like us. They don't usually share our interests no matter how smart they are. At uni I knew a pretty physics major (I kid you not), but what she really wanted to do was make clothes. Only she didn't realize that until she made her first dress about 3/4 through her degree. Maybe because she was smart and no one pushed her in such a girly direction. I don't think it ever occurred to her that she would actually like that sort of thing. So she finished her degree and then went back to school to get a degree in fashion design. Then she started making clothes and stuck with that for the rest of her life.
Think of it this way. Little girls play with dolls. Little boys play with tech stuff: gadgets and guns and cars, and even robots if they're lucky. And that's what most of us end up doing as adults too. I can only envy that guy who works in that MIT Robotics lab. That was my dream as a kid and as I near 40 I still can't think of anything I'd rather be doing. Argue all you want about nature vs. nurture. In the end it just doesn't matter. Most girls end up with girly interests. She will too. So think of a profession that girls tend to actually like. Or she will never stick with it or if she does she will eventually grow to hate it. The fact is that, for a girl, being pretty is WAY, WAY, WAY more important than being smart. Actually it's true for guys too, but women tend to get more enjoyment from the social aspects of life. And looks matter more for that. Also girls tend to have these weird states called "emotions". Never could figure out what those were... But it tends to make them kind of unreliable and unpredictable and, well, moody.
Actually, having given this a bit more thought, I think the secret is to decide whether she is a girly girl or more of a tomboy. If she's an ultra-feminine girly girl forget about any male dominated field. She will HATE it. Utterly. And even if she is a tomboy and even if she initially likes [instert male dominated field] she will probably eventually grow to hate it as well. Only if she is truly indistinguishable from a male is she likely to be a good candidate for a tech profession. Otherwise that estrogen will eventually get the best of her. And she will go back to the pink frilly dresses and talking about her "feelings" and giggling while talking to her friends on her cell phone.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
a good route to investigate is actuarial science. actuaries solve complex financial problems (that need solid math) but aren't "just doing math" all day long. the pay is good (without having to put in crazy hours) and there is often a "feel good" factor to the job.
NEXT STEPS:
in the US - check out the Society of Actuaries (www.soa.org)
in the UK - check out the Institute of Actuaries (www.actuaries.org.uk)
I did my degree in sound engineering. It has the maths and science (applied, electricity and waves), yet it has the fun part of music production (studio, live and film sound).
The university even went out and bought a pub so we could do some live sound. Nothing like learning in class and drinking at the same time.
I didn't pursue the production side, and now I work in analogue and digital hardware design, just because I'm different and wanted to push my skills.
The irony of modern education is that creative subjects, like Art, give the kids the satisfaction of actually making something even though the results are of no practical use to anyone, while practical subjects, like physics, are not taught in a manner that has much if any practical application.
An utter waste.
What makes learning compelling is practical production, actual concrete results, even better: ones that make money. Learning for the sake of learning is pointless, and for some a torture.
I reckon creativity is the handmaiden of practicality: practicality comes first. Find that kid a real purpose to use their maths, and then make it creative.
Really I see everyone in these fields having to make the choice between a "Greek" or a "Roman" education. That is (as explained in the preface of Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers) she will have to decide whether she wants industrialize or philosophize her talents. Go the path of Bertrand Russel, or Jack Kilby. If she want cash, then she should become an engineer. If she likes to theorize about things no one else really cares about, then become a university professor doing research.
I guess in more seriousness, math will help her in almost any field. The problem solving strategies that one learns while developing their first rigorous proof will be a bonus in any field, and math in general is applicable to almost anything. Also, you could see how inquisitive she is on these things when presented with a challenge. For example, have her research the Collatz Conjecture and see if she finds it fun to solve a problem just because it hasn't been solved. Math at the higher levels is much more creativity and deep thinking then the 'holy crap my calculator could do this' math of high school.
As you can probably tell, I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. But hey, I didn't really care. Now I'm a digital systems analyst/program optimizer and I love it. Of anything, I would just say don't let academia ruin a possible interest. All the qualification and quantification that they put you through can really destroy a kids desire to learn just because they want to.
She could get a business degree. There is always room for creativity as a business person. It also pays better than science.
One of these days I'll register an account here....maybe.
Anyhoo, the best thing you can do is just ask her what SHE wants to do. I was great with music and computers and even did some midi composition stuff in high school. My parents thought I'd go on to college and get a degree in that sort of thing.
I'm now a Marine Engineer and quite happy.
Sometimes just because you're good at something doesn't mean you should necessarily do it as a job. Most people try to use that logic and end up miserable with their work life.
See the Comparative Media Studies program at MIT -- exactly designed for people who got into MIT, but then decided they wanted to combine those abilities with something broader.
I can't speak so much for the USA, but over here in the Corporatist Monarchy of New Labour 'straight As" means pretty much nothing today. I achieved that 10 years ago with well more than the average number of exams, when school exams still had slightly more value than the paper they were printed on, and it wouldn't have been nearly enough to go to any of the top unis nor really said anything at all about my abilities.
Select some top unis (you could do worse than Cambridge), then give her entrance tests and freshman set texts, lectures, books, and finally specimen exams. Her performance there will say more about her abilities than meaningless high/secondary school standardised testing.
So is ARSS basically a FOSS implementation of Metasynth? Cool if it is. Especially if you keep up development.
She should do what she likes, nothing else. If she talented and open-minded, she should be able to choose for herself - nothing to achieve by "useful suggestions".
Forcing someone into science just because she has talent to handle numbers is just stupid. I know very capable people who did what they like, which wasn't at all what their "feats" would have suggested, and they feel very lucky. On the other hand I also know students who had to fight for every exam, every grade, because the where not that talented or gifted or whatever - but they did it, because it was what they wanted to do - and they achieved what they wanted to do. And they are lucky.
And there are those gifted who rushed through academic career, but simply don't like what they do now for a living at all. They are those who are unlucky.
What counts, after all? Luck, or money? I choose luck - it seems, natural, somehow.
Evil genius.
My advice would be to: (a) do a course with some physical sciences and mathematics; and hence (b) put off making a decision for or against specializing in mathematics; and finally (c) probably end up doing some go physical science subject, where you can use your secret math superpowers to overtake the others.
Cambridge (not that Cambridge, the UK one) offers a degree in Natural Sciences. I was able to study Physics, Maths, Chemistry, & Materials Sciences. I was good at maths, and was offered the chance at the end of my second year to transfer to doing maths. There are probably similar options in the US. I chose to give up maths. Though it was probably my best subject, I got to met people that were a lot better than me. I also liked doing stuff with my hands. There are plenty of applied maths subjects. Don't get put off by people who spend 40 years in an attic proving the Riemann hypothesis - both my parents were mathematicians, but they did practical things in aircraft design. For me, doing an experiment with something real seemed important to me then, and still does now. Also, if you are armed with a bit more than your fair helping of maths skills, then you get to see farther than the others in many fields that are less mathematical.
Plenty of posters have said variants on "Let her do what she wants". At that age, I had no idea what I wanted - I just wanted to be - well - effective at something. Lots of people want to be something in particular, but some of us don't have specific ambitions. Back then (the early seventies) astronomy was doing huge things, and I would have loved to be part of that, but it was all happening as I was getting my degree, and I was too early. I wanted to bring maths to materials science, but I was too early for that by about 30 years (good now, though).
Good luck!
Oh my god, what have you done? You've broken the chain :(
The story should be renamed to "Useful (Stupid) Math/Science Degree Tricks?"
The tough thing for high schoolers trying to choose a college, major, FUTURE, etc. is that they usually have no *clue* what they'd like to do in the real world, because they haven't had much contact with it.
The vast majority of science and math education for a high schooler is learning how to jump through mental hoops and regurgitate information to pass exams. There's a big gap between studying a subject in school and *using* the skills related to a subject in a job somewhere.
A lot of job satisfaction lies in working with people you respect, who respect you for playing an important role in fulfilling whatever goal the company has. The tasks you perform should also ideally fall into a comfort zone where you're using your talents without being in way over your head.
I tend to think most kids will do best with a broad education with as many internships, etc. as possible, so they can try out different kinds of work environments.
The highschooler in question might end up using math in her job -- if she's good at it, that part will go easily -- and may well be extremely interested if she's interested in the goal she's actually accomplishing. Why would she need to be interested in jumping through hoops?
Teacher is first on my list - I am one, although I have a degree in CS and was an engineer for years. I like teaching better. And whoever said "those that can't do, teach" was real chump. It takes talent, intelligence, psychology and patience to teach and teach well. And there's far too few good math and science teachers in the US school system.
Other things she might consider:
economics, statistician, finance, search engine optimization, market/demographic analysis - holy moly there's tons of things to do with a good math/science background.
But previous writers are correct about asking her preferences.
depends on her personal preferences.
Finance used to be popular... If you think engineering school is a drag, architecture school is much worse, but it's a bit more glamorous.
Whatever she decides to study, she should go ahead and take all the math that her University offers, including an advanced degree or two. Her talent will make it easy, and having the math degrees on paper combined with whatever she studies for fun (drama, education, medicine, polysci, international commerce, whatever) will make her unusually valuable in her field.
After the first half of my math studies, the numerical math group took us on what they call the "Ski-Seminar" -- essentially, you get driven to Austria for a week of Skiing during the day and math lectures in the evening, where people that did numerical math and that now work in the industry tell stories about the problems they are solving.
There was a lot of fascinating stuff:
1) A woman from Bosch came in to talk about her work on simulating car crashes. I have never seen anyone with a similarly cynical sense of humor -- and it was also really impressive what horrible things can happen when the timing for the different airbags in a luxury limousine is just slightly off (hint: The crash test dummy's head smashes out of the side window and is then shot through the roof).
2) A former PhD that worked in the carribean for an online casino came in. Very entertaining lecture.
3) Somebody from a meteorological research institute came in, explaining how the weather forecast at the end of the german mainstream evening news (20:15) can't be moved to the beginning of the news (20:00) because the simulations literally finish around 20:10.
Aside from that seminar, I have read about many fascinating applications of mathematics thereafter:
4) Finance, specifically dynamic asset pricing theory.
5) Cryptography. Who doesn't like a good spy story ?
6) Mathematical study of social networks -- technologies such as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_(technology)
come to mind...
I guess the trouble with the mathematics community is that they consider telling cool stories about mathematics as slightly below janitorial work, and as such we filter out a lot of smart young folks.
Then again, if she isn't interested in math, don't push her. I was convinced I'd become a lawyer until my second year in college, and ended up being a math geek, without anybody encouraging me into that direction (in fact, my father offered to pay my education if I _didn't_ study math, and I still did ;)
Let her try some university-level online short courses from the Open University (OU). This will also speed up her university admission.
How about you leave her alone to make her own decisions? Sounds like she knows what she wants (or at least what she doesn't want).
Most smart people can pass most degree courses - if they are enthusiastic enough. People who get to university and realise they aren't enthusiastic about what they are learning rarely do well. And people who KNEW they weren't interested before they started, and only took a course because family members pressured them into it rarely last through the first year.
Besides which, maths is about the easiest subject of them all to learn in your own time outside of university. All you need is a pencil, paper and a textbook. (I should know, I'm doing it myself now.)
Programming
Programming is very creative, it requires a lot abstact thought, and is really the new art form of the 21st centry. but at the same time you need good maths and logic skills to understand the computer enviroment your working in. Theres an awsome book on this whole subject called:
"Hackers&Painters"
A high math skill is convinient in almost every degree that she could choose. But if you want to give her some options she could be a 3D animator, Videogames developer, Artificial Intelligence developer o scientist, etc. Anyway, I think could be more useful if you dig in her other skills and preferences to figure out which other degree is suitable to her
No need to work for "the man", good money, and you get to put your math/analytical skills to work. Stocks, options, futures and forex are where the action is today.
Math and science just show ways to think logically. As you'd imagine, all sorts of employers want people who think logically.
I wouldn't worry about it. She'll probably excel wherever she goes. Let her go somewhere she'll enjoy herself. Just always encourage her.
I have a BS in math and now I'm a furniture maker. Thank goodness.
You might explain to her that getting a degree in engineering or physics doesn't mean she can't do something else with her career. But having a degree in say, chemical engineering then going on to Med school, becoming a lawyer, or starting a whitewater touring business in North Carolina is definitely plausible.
If she backlashes at engineering altogether though, make sure she understands that universities are businesses. They will sell you whatever piece of shit degree the masses are willing to by. So if she goes for something artsy, push her to tutor under someone's shop instead.
Suggest she apply at Harvey Mudd College "The Liberal Arts College of Science and Engineering" Four years of hanging out with people that all had those qualifications will give her a chance to figure out what she likes. (I'm not unbiased because I went to Harvey Mudd.)
If she's not having fun, she'll never work hard enough to matter.
The math as an extra will prove to be an advantage no matter what she chooses. Provided, of course, that she's good at what she chooses.
rhb
Many of the more esoteric financial disciplines require a lot of math; as do even the basic stuff such as M&A. As a result Wall Street has hired a lot of physics/math majors over the years; if she doesn't want to major in those areas then business is an option. Even so, I'd load up on math.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Instead of wondering what fields involve math and can be interesting, why not ask her what does she like? From there it is easier to choose something that she likes and is good at.
I got my BA in Math several years ago and wound up becoming a carpenter. While I wouldn't say I use my upper level math skills in my day to day work, I do use the logic skills for problem solving, as well as some of the homeowners can be impressed that they've hired someone who is (hopefully) a little more intelligent and respectable than the other guy. And for a bonus I stay in way better shape that I could if I were a desk jockey. There is certainly more to the world of math than becoming a teacher or an engineer, it's just harder to realize...
My degrees are in biology, chemistry, and genetics. After i got them, i realized i hate fundamental research (timing's everything, right?). By accident more so than by plan, i fell into making chocolate for a living, and for the last dozen years, that's what i've done. I get to use my talent in science (formulations, fluid dynamics, etc), and if you're on the supply side of chocolate mfr (ie industrial supplier to users), there's a huge social component as well - i was the technical services manager for many of those years, which involves teaching others how to use chocolate, technical sales, trade shows, and lots of travel. It was great fun.
High school math and science are not as much fun as the things that a good college education can show you. Math and science skills can serve you really well in linguistics, psychology, marketing, political science, cognitive science, neuroscience, biology, finance, business, medicine and other fields. I teach linguistics and computer science, and recommend both, but the key thing is to encourage her to take a look at several possibilities early in college, or even sooner. Two other thoughts: firstly, peer group is important, any subject is nicer if you are doing it in group of people you like and get on with. Secondly, as people have said, the standard high school subjects do get much more interesting with further study.
As for not too nerdy, I don't think that will matter quite so much when she's driving a car worth more than her classmates are likely to make in their lifetime.
Fun? Sure. Think of it as a game where you get to take money from fools and bend the rules of the game as much as possible while avoiding the authorities. Pretty much the same as Grand Theft Auto, but without the Auto part.
+ An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. +
If you decide it appropriate for your neice to read, it may spark some discussion comparing school maths/science to university maths/science. Find out what she is interested in.
One way ahead is to encourage her to consider only a five year career plan. Neither she nor yourself should feel her choices NOW lock her into a lifetime in one career. People often don't find out what the REALLY want to do with their lives until they've been in the real world for a few years. She should leave her options open. Encourage her to do whatever she feels like doing now, but whatever course, keep some higher level maths as a minor. It may end up giving her the edge someday.
Shades of "Good Will Hunting", here...
My first answer is to echo what a lot of other posters have said, and help her figure out what it is she wants. If she can find something that she can be truly impassioned about, then she'll have a leg up on most other kids starting uni. Of course, she's still pretty young, so she might not know yet what turns her crank.
On the other hand, I've often said that if I could go back to uni and do another undergrad, I'd do math for sure. There are just so many doors that math leaves open, and the kind of thinking the various maths foster is useful.
On the third hand, if you really want a concrete suggestion other than math/science, I'd go with Linguistics or Cognitive Science (but I may be biased ;). Have her check out the NACS program at Maryland, or CogSci at Johns Hopkins, or Linguistics or CogSci at MIT. Or the Symbolic Systems BA at Stanford (possibly the coolest undergrad program in existence). There's a lot of non-mathy (well, some math is involved), non (hard-)sciencey stuff going on that's really interesting out there.
Best of luck to her. She's at an exciting time in her Life. Help her realize that.
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- Wernher von Braun
Absolutely amazing and fascinating work is happening in image processing, such as the extraction of incredible latent detail from vintage images and super-res enhancements from Voyager data (Ted Stryck ftw!) JPL needs you!
My sister was like that, but she didn't hate math... she just wanted a different way to use it. Now she's a structural engineer (type of civil engineer), and after designing for a few years she now works for a company that does consulting and construction monitoring for big companies like JP Morgan. She flies all over the country (including Hawaii) to monitor new condos and office buildings and things like that, as they are being built, and point out things that need to be corrected or done differently. She spends a lot of time traveling and talking to people as a professional, not "growing mushrooms" in a cubicle, as she used to say. It's a really dynamic and interesting job.
As a career scientist, I'm not willing to bash an advanced degree, but nor is it the end-all and be-all. A degree isn't worthless in terms of experience or education, and the experience definitely hones you as a person and a life-long learner, but it doesn't always translate to financial rewards. Some people have a hard time coping with that, because it is a big investment of time and sometimes money. It's really important to do something you love. She will find a way to use her talents in some field that she adores. Looking for a less boring field that still focuses on something she doesn't like is the wrong way to look at it. Find what you love, then bring your talents into it....
Hopefully I'm not being too harsh. It isn't my point. But... Prepare her to live a life of house wife, receptionist, bank teller, or bag lady. If your niece hasn't learned the importance of using her strengths to create a life for herself she needs to be prepared to be used.
Didn't Mark Twain (puddin head) say something to the extent of, "If you don't use yourself someone else will. It is one of the few things someone will do for you."
By the way. I ordered those career choices by pay grade and sexual activity.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Requires a good sense of mathematical timing to stay coordinated with the music playing, as well as advanced geospatial skills to perform the precise maneuvers necessary to satisfy the high paying clientele. And structural engineering comes into play learning to perform the job while perched on stiletto heels.
Besides that, just whatever she feels like. No telling native ability combined with education to get a job or career. Being smart in general just helps, there is no exact path that fits everyone.
A good feeling for maths, physics and engineering, and overall general science is quite useful in game design, specially in small teams we're you can't necessarily afford separate writer/art director/etc...
Making game is definitely a fun way to make use of science.
Also the gaming industry definitely lacks girls putting a feminine touch to the creations.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Investment bankers always make huge money - even when they screw up the US tax payers bail them out.
Defense is about the only US industry left where quant jobs are not being glutting by the incoming flood of guest workers. Try to get a top-secret clearance.
there is always the worlds largest employer of mathematicians to consider.
the best toys, with only one catch....you can't brag about it. :)
A degree in math opens the door to many other areas: computer science, any other science, teaching or management. It essentially provides the flexibility and ability to think abstractly. Doing mathematical research is only one option, the actual work can be very applied. A good math education teaches naturally how to understand a complex issue, reduce it to a model which can be solved. Starting with "hard science" makes other areas easier to understand. A good reading for a student pondering the question whether math is an option is Ian Stewart's book "Letters to a young Mathematician".
Product design: companies like IDEO and Continuum. Combine art and engineering.
She could go into computer graphics. This is is a part of computer science that is very demanding in math, but also has many creative aspects. And there is always demand for good people in the movie industry, games industry, virtual reality and medical or industrial visualization.
This seems to me to be rather shortsighted and doesn't really address the question. One of the problems we see in STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) fields is that women who would be good at them tend to eschew them for the obvious nerd reasons. I have a strategy that I use with my students that has had some success. It's certainly not my idea but I have seen it work. What you should help her do is discover uses for STEM that appeal to what research has shown women want in careers - the ability to make a difference at a personal or social level. Sure, teacher qualifies, but so does electrical engineer working on alternative energy technology for developing or areas, or civil engineer working on new construction techniques for building with local materials, or biochemist working on physiological or pharmacological problems in health and disease. You don't have to design chips, or bridges, or bio weapons. And there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of other career paths like these that she could imagine herself if you support and encourage her. Will it make her time in an undergrad or graduate program any easier? Nope. Still the "boy" culture, still plenty of hard work to do, still many times she'll want to chuck it all. But if she can keep her goal(s) in mind and remember that school is just a short time in the overall scope of her future she can do it. I have examples in my own life of whom I'm very proud so I know it can work.
MIT has an art program, using technology to create art (digital scupture, etc.).
At a recent event, I met at MIT engineering guy whose company makes self-adjusting spoilers for racing cars.
Click and Clack, the Tappit Bros., who have the NPR Car Talk show have MIT degrees, and they became mechanics (one went on to become a Life Coach).
So, Origami isn't that far off.
>>One of my friends from MIT tried to start an origami club there, but they just met three times and then folded. :-)
She should consider any of the various DESIGN-related professions. Have her contact Prof. John Maeda (Maeda@RISD.edu), who started his career with a degree at M.I.T., after which he became a world-renowned designer, head of a section at The M.I.T. Media Laboratory, and now is President of the Rhode Island School of Design (RISD).
Dear Original Poster:
Please, I implore you. Do not allow another great mind to be lost to social stigma. Do not allow the next Einstein, Curie, or Salk to throw away a natural talent because she would not be accepted within her chosen peer group.
I am not saying that anyone should be forced to take a certain path, but to not encourage her to at least pursue math and science a bit more-setting aside the fact that she is a rarity and an inspiration to other young women-would be equally as criminal. Your daughter has no idea what potential fields are open to her, what exciting things can be achieved with the application of mathematics, and she won't know until she gets to the collegiate level. There are dozens of challenging engineering and science careers that are "cool" in and of themselves while requiring a great deal of mathematical aptitude. She should explore as many of them as she can.
Again, I am all for individuals choosing their own path, but they should make educated decisions based on their individual strengths as well as desires. The pursuit of social acceptance should never be considered foremost in the search for a path for your life. Social acceptance will come when you apply your skills for greater good. Why do you think we know the names of the folks I mentioned above?
Don't ignore natural talent. Find a way to use it not only for your own enjoyment, but to benefit others. Also, don't put too much weight on a single instrument's evaluation of skill. Not to diminish what a perfect math score on the ACT means for you now and in the near future, but in the long run it means very little. The opportunities achieving that score will present to you should not be ignored or devalued. Explore them and good luck!
Sincerely,
- Jason
Science and math is only as dull as someone wants to make it. Have her read The Double Helix, the search for finding the code of life DNA.
Don't underestimate the importance of math in almost all aspects of life. Sometimes someone with an aptitude for math can use that to become exceedingly successful in other areas. It's quite uncommon to find intelligent math/science people in a lot of different fields, so having those skills can definitely give you a heads up on all your mathematically retarded peers/competitors. Let your niece pick her own career. She may find she gravitates back toward math/science anyway. If not, her skills will come in handy in whatever she chooses.
(I can weigh in on this with some authority. I excelled in math throughout school, and am now the CEO of a bank. I moved up the ranks in the bank, from the bottom up, largely because my math skills made me much more qualified than other candidates. You'd be surprised how many upper-level corporate people can hardly add, and what an advantage you have if you can.)
Finally, consider encouraging a business degree. Highly versatile, this degree's name disguises how much math is involved, especially if earned at a technical school, like MIT.
Ask her questions about what she would like to do. I had a friend in college who had a 4.0 in biochemistry who really wasn't intrested in being a 'scientist' even though it was easy for her. Her plan all along was to become an M.D. that did medical research in the area of children's diseases. You may think this is splitting hairs on the term scientist, but that really was the way she looked at it. She is now doing exactly what she wants as a tenured professor at Duke Medical School, and she just might find the cure to something like childhood lukemia without thinking of herself as a nerdy scientist.
People with high intelligence very often have their own desires. My guess is that her family has ben helicoptering around her so much, they haven't once thought about what she wants.
http://web.tickle.com/careers/quizzes/show/1177 At tickle they have some good test that can help your niece identify what she is good at. Let her use a couple of hours there and she will have a pretty good idea of her strong and week sides. Then help her realize her strong sides, but don't force to do things she really don't want to do.
My (step)daughter had a similar reaction to math and science until she got far enough into college to get involved in some real work. She needed the challenge to make it interesting. Once she got challenged she latched onto it and won't let go. It was easy to see this in our case, she has operated on challenge since her 8 years of Montessori school. She went from there to college, at age 14 (that one was a self-induced challenge; she got herself in and was accepted before we ever found out). Now she looks for trace metals in neural tissue from Alzhiemer's, using the X-ray source at Brookhaven.
Once you've got some nuts and bolts results in hand, and especially if you're seeing something nobody's ever seen before, IMO science becomes the coolest thing you could possibly do. In the process, math gets yanked into it, and that becomes interesting because it Finally Does Something.
If the young lady in question responds similarly to challenge, I'm betting what she needs is to get her hands dirty up to the elbows in some real science.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
If she's got a good healthy creative streak, and is highly technically proficient, I can't think of a job which would be more fulfilling than Architecture. Good pay, too.
of course!
Make her watch Good Will Hunting. Then maybe she'll move to California to see about a girl.
IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
She could become a software engineer! That's not nerdy. :-)
Go read "A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future"... Though some of it is "soft", it gives a big picture of what the future holds for pigeon holed responses like this. If you force her to be left brained, she will just be a commodity tool of the future economy. My family has been doctors, engineers, microbiologists, computer scientists, etc., all lefty brains. I was the first to break out of this and now, with my wife, have spent a good deal of time on our son, who is now 8, to be a big picture thinker with analytical skills as a strong second. In my dealings in the entrepreneurial world, I can go out and hire a million mathematicians and scientists, all who can only do one thing, analyze... What I can't find, are the people who can pull these people together successfully and make something of them. Those are a rare breed indeed. To be successful in the future, is to rise about our society's way of throwing everyone back into this left brain world... Hope this kind of helps...
enough said
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
University and/or grad school will unlikely point her to final career choice. Many people evolve during their careers and do things for a living they did not originally plan on.
I have two engineering degrees, and guess what, even in those courses I should have taken electives that I though were fun and a bit more interesting (acoustic design etc.) rather than more marketable options (non-linear control systems?).
I own a multidisciplinary consulting firm (financial engineering to organisation dynamics) and a systems integrator. I enjoy HR and sales and business strategy the most.
We just grow up and find out what we like later on in life. Just have fun along the way. Develop your personality and be aware of the world around you. Be open. Quantum mechanics may be fine for daytime reading, but ancient literature as coffee and night reading makes us more worldly...
Also get out enjoy the sun, laugh and some extreme sports can be great too.
perfect fit.
If she is more extroverted or outwardly creative, she might like Marketing, PR, Sales, or Forecasting. They are mostly people oriented but you need very strong analytical skills to be truly successful.
Medicine is also a good choice.
Beware of top sciences schools, though. I scored insanely high and went to Purdue engineering and they managed to kill any love I had for math and science in less than two years. I ended being a graphic designer for five years after I dropped out. I am now back to school for a business degree at 37.
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
Seriously, a lot of astute engineering is required for strap designs and dealing with the various loads and conditions that women's clothes must deal with.
Or how about high heels? Stilettos that don't break.. you get the idea, women's clothing is an enigma for most men yet more math is required for that than for men's suits.
Actuarial Science is a great career for a woman and should be considered for anyone gifted in mathematics. The compensation and benefits are very good. I spent my own career in the Employee Benefits arena, but actuaries are also employed by Life/Health Insurers, Property/Casualty Insurers, Unions and Federal, State and Local Governments. Google "Society of Actuaries" for more information.
Say hello to my little sig.
Science already has plenty of smart people. What we really need it to have science-smart people in other fields, like psychology, sociology, etc, where people cant even do simple statistics or research. Thanks.
Especially CGI Animation, needs people skilled in mathematics and logic. It's a great place to combine mathematical and creative skills.
My school has a whole page on the things you can do with a math or statistics degree. I would definately call some of them fun.
http://www.rit.edu/cos/math/Students/careers.html
Sorry to say, but just let her have her fun with life. You seem to be trying to live your life through her. I changed my mind a couple times in college and I'm sure she will to. Besides, wouldn't it be better is she were, say, the smartest journalist at her paper or the best mechanic at the shop with numbers? -Frank
Extremely gifted people have often more one or two exceptional talents, they excel at almost anything and have a broad interest and a generic approach. A math professor might say it would be a waste not to develop the math talent and many other experts will say exactly the same regarding their field of expertise. To have a talent doesn't mean so much once you so many. Someone has no responsibility to develop one, it has to be someones own desire and choice. The beauty of Interaction Design / User Experience Design is it requires to design and visualise user interfaces while also understanding user needs, business needs and technologies.
This profession has artistic traits as well as the nerdy traits. Having studied user experience design options are plenty: scientific research, business or art. User Experience Designers /Interaction mostly work in multidiciplinary teams, a great athmosphere to develop social skills as well. Starting your own company also helps to secure you have enough room to broaden your horizon and being surrounded by likeminded people.
I have done different studies and got my master in interaction design with a A+ GPA. Before I studied I thought I had no artistic talent. Because I had grown up with the expectations of others that I had to do something with my talents I had studied many different studies which didn't had my passion. The idea of discovering my passion the eye opener for me.
As a female who also excelled in high school math and science (and english and history) but wasn't sure what I wanted to do at that age either... [In 7th grade I had a female math teacher completely blow up yelling at me because I'd said maybe I didn't want to go into math and she felt like I'd insulted her career choice...] I'd second the comment saying encourage your niece to keep an open mind but also second the comment that "real math and science" doesn't start until college. College is the BEST time to explore many options at closer to the high-level that a real job in them would be. I would encourage your niece NOT to go to a math-specialty school (I went to Yale, not MIT) so that she doesn't feel pressure to close off her options. She's going to have to just go to college, try to explore academic options while doing that last bit of teenage growing up, and try to honestly assess what she really enjoys at the higher intellectual level that college offers. I've ended up studying the physics of water and the math of ecology in graduate school (ecology is a great more applied science if you don't want to be doing physics and math all the time). Business school/management might also be great for her (lots of personal interacton), medicine, entrepreneurship. If she already kind of dislikes science she will probably HATE "bench-top" science (bio/chem). Encourage her NOT to work in a LAB in college but instead to get out and do field work or volunteer work. I think these things help your creativity more, too, and can keep those doors in your head open to many possibilities better.
Yes, I am hawking my own field. But it really is a lot of fun and extremely interdisciplinary. You can do discrete math to your heart's content exploring grammatical formalisms like Head Driven Phrase Structure Grammar (HPSG) and Combinatory Categorial Grammar (CCG) without feeling like you're doing math for the sake of math because you have to explain real linguistic phenomena. When you get a little bored of discrete math, you can move into the statistical domain and work on trying to extract real linguistic insights out of terabytes of naturalistical speech and writing.
I teach college math (usually part-time, at a NYC community college).
(1) I see a number of people who didn't like math in high school, or were convinced they were bad at it. Then they're pleasantly surprised when they hit "real" college math that it's interesting and intriguing and deep for them. I would recommend that your daughter at least *try* a college math class like statistics or calculus -- she doesn't have to declare a major right away, try it with an eye of making up her mind about what she wants to do.
(2) I wish someone had told me, at that age, about what I do right now. Primarily I'm pursuing music with my rock band (other friends are artists, etc.). When you're an artist you do need a day job of some sort. If you get a master's degree in math, you can get along pretty well teaching part-time at community colleges, be in an intellectual and not brain-dead environment (like temping our waitressing), and still have gobs of time for your art. I also teach nights, which segues perfectly into a weekend schedule where I'm up all night at clubs and bars, etc. There's lots of demand for remedial math education in colleges these days. At least consider this as an outside option if she wants to be an artist.
It's not for everyone (or almost anyone), but if I'd known this at her age I would have saved myself ~6 years in the wrong career track.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
I'll pass, I have a wife. All the same bitching and nagging, less browbeating.
..and now with a CS degree and a crappy job, I realize that the standardized test scores I got did me a disservice. Sure, I got a nice scholarship out of it, but it was an unnecessary boost to my ego, which was soon shattered after college when I found out that without at least a masters from a top level school I'll probably be stuck in wed development for the rest of my career.
The best advice I can give is don't make a big deal out of the scores, even if it means down-playing them.
Before rejecting math, engineering, or science perhaps she should talk to someone who works at JPL:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/
I certainly enjoyed working there.
The more important question is why should someone working in math or engineering be portrayed as nerdy and unsociable in the society, while these demographics deserve the most credit for our society's thrive in modern times. This trend, in my opinion, is directly responsible for the distinct lack of desire amid the youngsters in the recent years. Many kids are just way too busy expressing themselves. Look at the engineering/math grad programs, they are by and large comprised by people from other nations (those who are swiftly going for that card: I am an immigrant engineering grad student myself, so put it back in your hand). My role models growing up, were Shannon, Turing, Dijkstra, Feynman, VonNeumann you name it. I was more than stunned to observe that the recent replicas of my heroes, if exist at all, have grown up combating through a deluge of humiliation in high-school, reality-shows, college and so on. Can't this be a huge turn off for someone who might even be remotely interested in pursuing a career in Math et. al ? And that is for doing what they love and being extremely good at it. I can't assimilate the difference between a professional musician and a mathematicians and why the former is applauded to some deity level, while the latter has is badged with the stigma of nerd.
How about a prostitute?
I hate to say it, but business / economics might be a viable career path for her.
Our high school co-valedictorians (from a Science & Technology Magnet school, no less) were twin Russian sisters who blew away everyone with their math prowess and did very well on their science classes. They ended up going to Harvard and Yale (so they wouldn't have to compete with each other for class rank) and both ended up taking jobs on Wall Street and pulling in 7-digit salaries.
Not sure how they're doing now, but I'm sure they've saved enough during the short time over the bubble years to enjoy a nice early retirement and pursue whatever they want now.
My sister in law, on the other hand, was very strong in math and studied economics in Boston to run off and help some of the poorest countries in the world get on their feet by leveraging microfinance programs. She's been on a few 1-2 year assignments in Uganda and Sierra Leone and really enjoyed it (parasites aside). As a bonus, she probably never has to donate blood ever again.
Anyway, pursuing economics is probably a worthy and rewarding pursuit for those people who are good at math but turned off to science and engineering for some reason.
Get her out into the real world a bit, visit some colleges and let her get some experience in different fields.
We all know people in many different job fields - introduce her and perhaps get a day on the job with some of the fields she's interested in.
I took two years of college chem before I had my first internship... where I quickly changed my mind.
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
I'm good at math and science, and wish to pursue it as a career, but the thing is that my family wants me to go into culinary arts. If I were good with my hands, I would go into construction, but alas, I'm not.
Has the old saint in his forest not yet heard of it? That God is dead?
Doing well at math could help with learning to be a Lawyer, if she's inclined. If she goes to Harvard, maybe she could be President one day!
math + creativity = 3D computer animation and visual effects for feature films.
It's a blast, if you're smart enough!
The government should step in to provide the proper assurances that people talented in science and math end up pursuing careers to those ends. The new United Socialist States of America will benefit more by ensuring that bright students follow careers that agree with their aptitudes.
...how about being a prostitute?
Math is an essential component of any PRECISE description. If you cannot express it mathematically you don't really understand it.
That is why PhD types always try to throw a mathematical (algebraic, geometric, statistic, algoritmic, whatever) description into their papers.
Economics, Linguistics, Sociology, Psychology, and other fields TRY to show formulas or at least some statistical basis for their conclusions in an attempt to formalize their knowlegde.
This is because a formal predictive model in these fields is the Holy Grail for them.. To express knowledge mathematically is to express it precisely. If you cannot express it mathematically, you cannot express it precisely.
Mathematics is used in all fields or endeavors where we try to get a precise representation or approximation of the phenomena.
I'd say that after basic (imprecise) communication, mathematics is the most important technology people should learn because it represents precise (formal) communication.
We see this abundantly in computer programs, linguistics, and of course engineering and sciences. To get really serious in any field (at at theoretical level) is to try to find the "laws" or "patterns" that govern it... to do so you need Math.
Sci Fi idea: high tech civilization that has NO math. How would that work? Evolutionary proceses dictate "technology"?
First have her to talk to people that do some of the possible jobs in real life. I had good math skills and I was set that I was going to do computing when I was 10, it turned out that after talking to a few people about it, it was not what I thought it was. Eventually, I became a scientist and I'm very happy with it.
The same happens in the other direction, her idea of science and engineering might not be in touch with reality. Have her talk to some people that actually do science. Give her role models, women in science and engineering would go a long way on removing the image that everything is nerdy about it.
Next, the best advice I received when I was in high school came from my uncle. Take a major in a field that is wide enough that you can choose later what your career path is going to look like. If she is good she'll continue on to grad school and specialize in whatever she likes once she is more mature to make such a decision.
Finally, forget MIT she'll be miserable, if she hates a nerd environment it's like sending her to hell. Consider other options, Harvard for instance has a more normal (read not nerdy) group of students still excellent at what they do including science. A more rounded education will serve her well, as long as she does not give up on the skills she does have. A good university will provide internship opportunities in a wide range of things where she can try things out.
At the end of the day, all you can do is advise, it'll be her decision.
Actually, all the social sciences are great fields for people with good quantitative/analytical skills. Political science is far more technical than most people realize (and every bit as much so as economics), and sociology, psychology, anthropology (physical, not cultural), geography, etc. are all fields in which people with good skill sets will be well-positioned to get ahead. Plus (unlike contemporary economics), those fields are actually interesting...
I wish I had done it 30 years ago instead of going down the engineering path. Point her to http://www.wai.org/ [Women in Aviation International} to read about the career choices.
Game Design. Yeah, it is pretty "nerdy" but if you make a hit game and your company has profit sharing... Let's just say that if Blizzard does profit sharing, every person on the World of Warcraft team will never need to work again. $15 a month times 11 million players.
More specifically for her though, physics engines and simulation are probably the most math intensive, followed by Artificial Intelligence and Networking. If she likes the idea, tell her to look up a guy who goes by blackosprey when she gets her degree.
Totally agree with above post. Here's a little cautionary tale for you, from a girl who was pushed into a science major:
I scored above the 99th percentile on my SAT, ACT, as well as the ASVAB (one of the qualifying tests to join the military.) In fact, I just about maxed out the scores on the ASVAB - my recruiter wanted to photocopy and frame my scores in the recruiting office. I usually scored higher on the verbal sections than math sections on all of the above tests, but I was still in the top few percentiles. Given all that, I thought I was hot shit.
In high school, I had only had slightly-better-than-average grades because I didn't enjoy doing homework, but I generally did very well on my exams. I took a lot of AP and honors courses in both math/science subjects as well as the liberal arts, and breezed through them. Then when it came to college, I got a full scholarship to a state school. I matriculated as a biochemistry major because 1.) I've always done really well in those related subjects and 2.) my father is a biochemist, and he pushed me to follow in his footsteps. It was not my top-choice college, but I went there because it had good reputation and the scholarship was quite persuasive as well.
Long story short, I flunked out of college. Miserably. It only took me a semester before I was put on probation, a year to before I lost my scholarship, and then another year before they put me on academic suspension for not making the minimum grades. I hated my major, I hated my courses, and I hated everyone at my school. I didn't even bother attending my classes most of the time. I could rarely be bothered to even leave my room.
Anyway, I was too afraid to tell my parents that I flunked out of college... so I didn't. Instead, I told them I was doing fine, and became a stripper to pay for an apartment away from home and to attend community college while I figured myself out. Before I became a stripper, I also considered the possibility of running away to another country and suicide - being an academic failure is THAT big of a deal in my family, and I was THAT upset about it. I actually managed to pull this off for a while, until I couldn't take pressure of living a double life anymore.
I eventually 'fessed up to my parents. I pulled up my grades enough to transfer to another school. Unfortunately, I'm still a biology major for practical reasons - despite me failing so miserably at my last institution, I managed to pass enough courses in my major that my fastest route to graduation is to continue in my major. I am under a lot of parental pressure to graduate as soon as possible - for them, it's a great source of shame and embarrassment amongst our family and friends to have a daughter who didn't graduate college in 4 years.
Honestly, if I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have even gone to college at all until I was sure of what I wanted to do. I didn't discover my love and talent for physics until just last semester, when I aced my physics course. (Until then, I had always done rather poorly in physics - another reason why I chose biology/chemistry.) If time and money weren't issues, I'd probably pursue a degree in either engineering or physics instead of biochemistry. It's amazing what motivation can do - despite my past track record of laziness, I'm actually doing quite well now. My current school is a lot more academically rigorous than my last one - if I had put in a quarter of the effort that I am putting in now, I probably would've graduated a year early and with honors, no joke.
I'm not going to lie - being a stripper was probably one of the best and most formative experiences of my until-then overly sheltered life. I learned a lot about myself, about other people, and about the way the world works. It was a better education than I could've gotten at school. It also changed me to WANT to become a better person and to WANT to use my (other) talents to do useful, constructive things. Without all that, even if I had managed to pull up my grades to go back to school to please my parents, I probably would've fallen back into a cycle of avoiding class and failure all over again.
Moral of the story is, let her do what she likes - for herself, and not to please you or anyone else.
http://www.nsa.gov/MUSEUM/
Lots of physicists work on wall street, using their mathematical talents to predict the market with mathematical models.
Musicians tend to be good at math, and good at programming, and possibly vise-versa.
..........FULL STOP.
She might wanna think about Architecture and Engineering design. This is a wide open field that really requires the use of math and science. I work in this field and it surprises me to no end how many people cant do basic adding and subtraction, nor can understand basic physics about why things they want designed wont work. It takes math skills to understand material load stress calculations, material endurance calculations, and also important to understand the chemical reactions of when two building materials are put together. Plus on top of all of this, she can design herself a really cool looking house for free.
(I took a bunch of econ courses, and didn't have to solve one differential equation)
And that proves right there that you have no idea what graduate level econ is.
My roommate was getting a Ph.D in econ while I was getting my masters in EE. I saw the homework problems he worked on and you'd be AMAZED at how much overlap there was. Sure, the theory on why we're applying those mathematical theories differs, but the math is the same. His shit was often much more complex than mine.
She can develop a business playing calculator games:
1: Enter "58008" into a calculator.
2: Turn the calculator upside down so that it reads "BOOBS" and laugh maniacally.
3: ???
4: Profit!
Almost 400 comments and no one's mentioned poker, though someone did mention card counting in Vegas. I'm too old to know about age limits. Is that a problem?
If not, there seems to be a lot of opportunity these days for those who are good at reading people and good with numbers.
Does everyone in the family avoid playing poker with her? Or is hers a family where she has never played? If she likes it she could do that for a while and then decide what to do next with her life. It might be more poker, might not.
This might not be the most socially responsible thing she could do with her life, but that wasn't the question, was it?
tell her she can use it for anything she wants to. I have degree in math and physics, a phD candidate at one of those reputable science schools, but after all of this school I have found that all of that science training has been good for something I never anticipated.
It is amazing what years of practice at problem solving does for someone who is interested in business. in one short year in the real world I am #2 in a company and am planning on starting my own here in a little while. I don't think I would be half as good at what I do if it wasn't for math and science training. It's not to difficult to pick up enough real work business training to do well, but it's a real pain to try and get good at problem solving and project management.
My 15 year old is also good with math, but she's academically good all around. She wants to pursue a career as an artist. I'm all for that. Even though she has the aptitude to be an engineer or scientist, that's not what she loves. I'm choosing to guide her into something that she loves to do and then it's her responsibility to find out how to make a living doing it. If she has a passion for it, she'll find a way to do it for life.
Looks like she'll end up being a stay at home mother and a house wife!!!
PWNED
just because you are hung like a moose doesn't mean you got to do porn.
Let her do what she enjoys, regardless of her natural skill set. Most people eventually come to find they enjoy doing what they are best at in the end anyhow, but sometimes being good at something just isn't enough.
What is $50,100 x 4?
The answer is not the more obvious $200,400, but is, in fact, the minimum she will spend at MIT over 4 years. I don't care if she is the smartest person to ever take the ACT, this is a lot of potential debt to burdening her with.
And yes, I know that MIT has great financial aid, but much of that aid is in the form of Loans, which I don't really consider aid at all, nor will you if you read a popular (if disreputable) website.
Both the basic SAT and ACT only test up to 10th grade math. Furthermore, many students might accelerate these a year or two and take calculus in high school.
I never got perfect, but did go to MIT. I figure I was sloppy with a question or two. Someone who is very careful and gets it all right could be a good editor, lawyer, programmer, etc where exact detail is paramount. Then of course the lady might enjoy a career interacting with people more than ideas.
Your niece sounds like quite a girl. There's nothing quite as attractive as having an intuitive grasp of math. But I don't want to sound like a creep. So I have to ask you:
If the sum of my age and the age of your niece were multiplied by the geometric mean of their logarithms...
She's good at math but doesn't want it as a career. So f*cking what?
This actually is very normal. I excell at expressive stage dance and Aikido, even though I've only done the latter for about 3 years up to know. I'm good at it probably because I have a diploma and 10 years of experience in performing arts. Yet I didn't choose it as a career. Instead I'm a professional multimedia-designer and a web-developer/flash-actionscript developer since nine years ago. A world class dancer I know earned his tuition by performing and earing bucketloads of money - yet he was studying to become an architect. (Original quote:"I know I'm good at performing, but you should see me as an architect.")
I recently went to a professionals performance of the type of dance I did. Done by those considered best in this particular field. The performance was so unbelievably crappy and boring, I'm sure I could've done better right of the bat, even though I haven't performed in 9 years. I actually saw technical mistakes on stage instantly. Give me a minimum-wage budget for all performers, and in 2 years I'll have the best crew in the world. I could out-choreograph 90% percent of the people in that area instantly.
So why didn't I choose a career in performing arts? Well, first of all, if you go performing arts, you do *nothing* else. It's not 9 to 5 it's more like 9 to 12 o'clock in the evening and _paying_ for it the first 5 years. Until you've gotten yourself a reputation and the gigs and sponsorings come rolling in. You have to morph into a person resembling some kind of dictator if you want to successfully shoo a crew of 25 dancers about and the amount of work that goes into a regular 2 and a half hour show is reminiscent of a large complex mission-critical software project. Having a child or even just having fun hanging out with friends other than your dancing crew once in a while is a total deal-breaker in this field.
Why don't I teach Aikido then? Well, I suppose I could after another year of concentrated training, but I'd need a Dojo and generally would have to think of it as fun even when teaching people the same boring basics every day again even though I'd love to do randoris with experienced Aikidokas that are at my level most of the time. Sorry, but that doesn't sound particulary attractive to me. Screw that as a career.
I'm not the most outstanding flash/as3 developer right now - the position for which I'm currently hired -, especially when compared to my project manager, but I'm a very experienced senior web expert with solid art, design, software architecture and programming skills and just got a job with a large game developer and come right after my team-lead, AS-skill-wise (And he has a CS degree and has stuck with ActionScript ever since). I'm in heaven right now, with people around me I like, a fun job and superiors that understand what I'm saying and can actually answer my questions if I have any. It's a software developers paradise that more than covers for the below average salary. Which comes to my bank account every month - contrary to that of most professional dancers and Aikidokas. I'll stick with that for now, thank you.
Bottom line:
There are bazillions of people who excell in a field and yet pursue no career in it. I know people who could give the best lectures at a campus and have no academic degree at all, because they're just fine working as a gardener, woodworker or traditional german slater. This isn't a problem. Your intention of showing her the upsides of science are good and you should attempt to do that, but don't force the issue if she persists in stearing clear of it, for it actually is quite common.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
No, serious. I'm a wildlife researcher (sort of like the stuff you see on Discovery Channel), and I need math (and computer skills) all the time. Actually, I wish I had a degree in math, because I never seem to know enough.
So, here you go... an exciting job (try tranquilizing bears for a sport. :) ) and a good place for a math/science talent. And it's definitely not an office job! (at least until you have to sit down and analyze the data).
In general, I think that any science research is very rewarding for people with a good brain.
Bing? Bang!
Every parent of a high school student should put this on their bathroom wall and ask themselves every morning "Am I this girl's parents."
If the answer is yes, they need to take a good hard look at themselves.
I'm glad you found yourself early in life. Some people live decades as miserable adults because they haven't found their calling.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I am similar to what your niece is - good with math, but it doesn't turn me on.
I finished HS with Honors Geometry, Honors Physics, Honors Chem - these were classes just under the AP course level. I had a free ticket to school, and my dad MADE me go. Couldn't get in unless I picked a major, and at that time, I couldn't think of any other discipline than Math.
Math was ok in HS. It got bad for me in College- I didn't like it! And all the kids were asking me "So whatcha gonna be when you grad?" They threw ideas at me: Math teacher (I'd have to go learn teaching too) Statistics (I hate sadistic statistics) Accountant (money? I have checks left, I'm not broke) Mathematician (uh, just NO). I wanted to work with hardware inside computers, they were the neatest thing, I wanted to learn that stuff - 1992...but college didn't have it, and I'd have to go be Electrical Engineer.
I could NOT give a reasonable answer to why I picked math, and could not give an answer to what I would do.
After the 2 years of basics, I got out of college. I said Since I don't know what to do, I'm going to go out in this world and find myself.
Took about 10 years. Had HP Pavilion in apartment, caught boyfriend trying to OC it, and got caught up in hardware.
I now have an AAS in computer technology and networking.
Go get the book called "What color is my parachute" latest version. Go have her work it. She will find pin points about herself and may be able to connect dots to find a career.
But travel also - have her experience LIFE too. Not just school school school more school no life here's a job no life school..
More like school school school BREAK LIVE LIVE school work workschool work school LIVE
Just my 2 bux.
Become a CSI :-) TV makes it look glamorous
and everything on TV is real! Isn't it!
I have a BS in Mathematics with a concentration in Computer Science. Now I am a Cost Estimator for a gov contractor and make REALLY good money. There are good jobs out there for math majors, just get out and look for them.
If there's anything this world needs, it's an increase in the number of primary teachers who have an interest and aptitude for maths and science.
Especially female teachers -- every single one of my elementary school teachers were female, and it was *very* apparent that none of them were enthusiastic about math or science.
I am extremely good at math and sciences. People are a bit more of a mystery. I used my skills to develop a number of inventions (some of which you may well use). I also farm, raising pastured pigs, sheep, chickens, ducks and geese. It's a great life and my skills at math & science come in very handy giving me a deep understanding of things on the farm including mechanical, biological, chemistry, physics, statistics, etc. I love it. Our kids got my math and science skills plus my wife's people skills. What a deal. Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/ http://hollygraphicart.com/ http://nonais.org/
Are you a rocket scientist, or a brain surgeon? The neurosurgeons I work with use that exact phrase.
The GP, whose post was discussing marketing, was marketing his/her post by posting it near the top.
So his/her post was positionally on-topic, in a self-referential kind of way.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
first two words are "My niece"
good lord people, do a search with full view of all the comments for the phrase "your daughter" just to see how many complete retards there are.
...so to be denied tenure at 35, after having spent 19 years working for it, means you started gradschool at, um, 16 years old? Hmmm. Maybe math skills would be useful at Slashdot too.
Computational photography and video are, at heart, beautifully mathematical--Fourier transforms, lots of geometric linear algebra, etc. See, e.g., Fredo Durand's web pages at MIT. --Kevin Sullivan, University of Virginia
... she's good at math. Let's find a way to make her do math, even though she doesn't like it. Does anyone else find this whole topic offensive?
Two Rules For Success:
1) Never tell people everything you know.
Check out MIT's Media Lab, headed by Cynthia Breazael.
http://robotic.media.mit.edu/
A degree is a nice thing to have, I guess, but if the girl wants something else, maybe she should look at something like an apprenticeship as a tool and die maker or CNC programmer. Programming in six axes of movement while considering the metallurgy of the workpiece can stretch the mind a bit; so can designing and building multi-station progressive stamping dies. There's always been a shortage of toolmakers and related trades, and they are always in demand, even when production workers are being laid off. Not as high-status as white-collar slavery, but lucrative and satisfying.
She's that young and you want her to figure out what to do with her life? Let her go, if she's smart, she'll live a good life no matter what her career (or college).
I think skills with math and science make you simply better at everything. I know that that sounds broad but I can fix it by making it broader... Being good at anything will make you better at whatever you choose to do.
i.e. If you're into art it may make you a better...say....doctor simply because your brain is stimulated and you have a whole set of problem solving skills that someone else might not. I know it sounds weird.
This is my Advice, don't look for a career into which your math smart kid will fit and maybe be happy. Find out what she wants to do and trust that who she is, math smart, athletic, a juggler, whatever, will make her great.
It used to be that study was to round us out, make us into worldly, capable people. Now we get out of school already having set our futures in stone.
We could argue all day about what she should do with a math or science degree. Or we could all agree that the best thing she could do is to build a robot which can answer the question for us.
The robot should be able to understand English sentences, be able to analyze them, search the internet and analyze the results, and then produce some sort of four thousand word thesis on the best things to do with a math or science degree. That will settle this matter with no more discussion needed. Probably the robot will need some sort of Agreeometer which can be used to make sure that everybody will agree with the thesis produced. To be fair, since it's going to be a super smart robot, we should set the robot to only produce a thesis if the Agreeometer indicates that over 99.9% of people will agree with the thesis.
It'd also be good if the robot could serve icy-cold beer refreshments, and dance like a monkey. Just for the entertainment value.
Building a robot to answer difficult questions is a perfect application of math and science, and since your niece aced the ACT test, it should be pretty simple for her to build a robot.
Therefore, the best possible answer to this question is that your niece should build a robot which can provide the best possible answer to this question. End of program. Beep beep. I'm going to get some oil now.
Investigations and forensics - takes science and maths. Plethora of angles to come from or head down (psychology, accounting, computer, biological, etc, etc). All the rage on TV currently so it must be hip rather than nerdy. Doesn't have to be about bad news either.
Good grief, you must all be MIT or Harvard graduates since you're missing the big picture. He wrote it's his NIECE... aka a girl. Doesn't matter what her skills are. Doesn't matter what she wants, either. Her best career is Housewife.
I am biased, being a philosopher, but philosophy is a great choice if she has strong logical and analytic skills. The work would expand on the knowledge she already has and also expose her to wide branches of knowledge she may not have seen so far.
As for usefulness, snide comments aside if she is smart and well trained she can do pretty much anything from grad school to med school to getting a job as a computer programmer or any one of the various other suit professions pretty easily. Just gotta keep the grades up. Tell her to get into school with a strong program on both the soft and hard science side and have her take a few classes.
If she's anything like the smart girls who reject hard science based majors at my school, she has a good chance of falling in love with the great conversation.
If she is really that good, she could probably be a quant on Wall Street -- analyzing stocks using esoteric physics formulas.
Does she like photography? Photoshop? That sort of thing? My brother considered a career as an astrophotographer at NASA. Some cosmology education needed there and a flair for dramatic photos. Good mix of art and science.
As somebody who graduated not that long ago myself, it's unlikely she really knows what Engineering is. Most people only see the Dilbert engineer in an office, not the engineer working on space shuttles, deep sea robots, or any of a million other things. I recommend checking out some smaller engineering schools like Harvey Mudd, Rose Hulmann, and Olin College.
She could go the route of Asia Carrera and be a porn star, and just happen to be nerdy to boot!
I love my job as a Property/Casualty actuarial analyst. It is a nice mix of math and business. I can spend time on my own delving into how to compute complex business problems, or I can dumb down insurance concepts so a group of insurance agents can grasp them. From an education standpoint, you can graduate with a bachelor's and get a job. There is another 3-7 years of exams (which companies fully support with study time and study material) after which you are at approximately Masters to PhD level. Not to mention there are something like 20,000 credentialed Actuaries in the US.
You say that she doesn't really like math or science, so why try to get her to do this? She's obviously very smart, and in that sense will probably be able to succeed in anything she does. Why not ask her what sort of things she's interested in and help her towards her goals? It's important to let her know that she can achieve anything she wants, given her special talents, and that now's the time to start making inroads.
You could also point out how much math and science go into engineering race cars or planes, well hell everything you use! many people take for granted the things we have without realizing the amount of work behind it.
I think the easiest way to get her into math or science would be finding something that really interests her and show her how math and science apply to it and that if she worked on it she could improve it for everyone else that enjoys it.
I'm an undergrad studing aerospace engineering, and one of the things that really made me want to be an engineer was an artical in PopSci mag. about a guy that worked for NASA making wings with novel shapes, some were modeled after birds wings, he would test them in a wind tunnel and model them in CAD and FEA programs and on the weekend he went out to the beach and flew them. I just thought it was awsome that someone could get paid lots of money for playing with model airplanes! also if it wasn't for aerospace, chemical, mechanical, metalurgical, ceramic, biological, electrical, and countless other types of engineers we wouldn't have broken the sound barrier or visited the moon.
Plus with an engineering degree you have a great chance of getting a job staight out of school, with a decent salary. I know people who are getting internships that pay more then $20/hour and getting full time offers for more then that.
But I also agree that just because she is good at math doesn't mean that a job where she uses it is the best for her. The ACT is really meant to test apptitude in mid-level algebra and low-level triginometry, almost all engineers have to take atleast multi-variable calculus and trust me they are in completely different ballparks!
P.S. sorry for my grammar and spelling, as they like to say on my campus I'm an engineer not an english teacher!
She may want to become an architect, or perhaps to into astrophysics. Another possibility could be not having to use her math skills hardly at all, like most professional people. when was the last time you had to answer a calculus question, because of your job? Hardly, most likely. Let her decide what she really wants and likes, what she knows she can do, and wouldn't mind dedicating many years to the study of in the pursuit of a good profession. You give the hint that she is creative. Perhaps, she can work as a special effects person, or even become a writer, if she's not one already. In other words, she's got lot's of potential. The reasone why I think so is because, if she is this good at something she doesn't even like, most likely she will excell in something she is passionate about, so long as she doesn't happen to chose something she just can't do, like some people who want to be singers, and just can't carry a tune. Have fun!
Lots of women are being pushed HARD into science
and engineering. They seem to resist this.
Is it so hard to believe that different hormones
might result in different behavior? Why must we
judge this as a bad thing? Why must we judge the
value, even the economic value, of a person in
dollars or euros or whatever?
Maybe she'd like to stay home. Why can't she?
There won't be too many bright people in the
next generation if today's bright people focus
on for-pay careers. That's how evolution works;
it'd be good IMHO to resist becoming a world
full of idiots. Smart people should have kids
too, not just the dumb ones.
It's even rewarding. She can homeschool a dozen
bright kids. Really, it's extremely rewarding
and it's a full-time job.
seriously, stop pressurising her. send her out into the big scarry world and let her have some time to find her feet. get a job or internship an see if she likes it. then go in the film industry, a lot of cutting edge tec
"You are still innocent until proven guilty. What's changed is what they do to innocent people." by notnAP (846325)
It gets you on campus. Pick a school with lots :-)
of engineering students. Spend all your free time
in the engineering lounge. Marry an engineer.
Pay off the student loans.
It's rather practical actually.
house wife
It requires a husband who respects the job.
(obviously not you!)
Smart women produce smart kids generally,
if they try. Most don't try, which ought
to terrify anybody who wants the future of
humanity to include intelligence.
Raising a big family can be really satisfying.
After the first few, extras are no big deal.
Part of this depends upon why she doesn't like Math or Science. Math in university can be much more interesting in that there is much less rote work, and the focus is on original problems solving. A lot of the empirical sciences only get liberating that way in Grad School.
That being said, degrees which use mathematical ability but are not hard-core science degrees include: Cognitive Science Analytic Philosophy Analytic Philosophy, unlike Continental Philosophy or the history of Philosophy, uses Formal Logic and other mathematical tools to study hard-to-pin-down philosophical questions. Some schools are weak in this area--find out how many courses they have that actually have a logic prerequisite, and whether they have a professional logician on staff. Cognitive Science is "the Interdisciplinary Study of the Mind" and generally includes courses in Linguistics, Philosophy, Psychology, and Computer Science. Her math ability would carry over to areas of linguistics (such as syntax) and computer science, as well as the analytic side of philosophy, and to the stats in psychology. CogSci is a new discipline that emerged in the 1970s and isn't offered everywhere yet, but it's about as far from 'boring' as a degree that capitalizes on math aptitude can get.
The best husband hunting ground is the
mechanical or electrical engineering department
of a good school.
One must survive the classes long enough to
find a husband. This requires math ability.
(seriously)
I took three years of calculus in one year, got a five on the calculus AP and an 800 on the math SAT II, and was rejected from MIT, CalTech, and most of the other schools I applied to. Fact of the matter is, colleges these days are so hard to get into that if she honestly doesn't want to pursue anything in math or the sciences, don't try to make her. Even if she does get into those colleges, only the best of their graduates have a shot at any real success as an engineer or scientist. Try to get her to open a business revolving around something scientific, especially if she's into that entrepreneurial stuff.
I am studying this for a while now and it just might be the thing for her.
It requires some mathematical skills. And if you like it, you can take it towards IT but on the other hand if biology is more your thing, you take it into more depth on that area.
We have tons of girls at my uni which excel in maths but enjoy biology just as much.
Mod parent up . . . architecture should be considered if she likes design and creativity and such . . . what DOES she like? You didn't say . . .
My brother started out majoring in Math. Found that it was too abstract, and after a semester changed his major to Physics. Physics wasn't 'real' enough, so he switched to pre-med. Pre-med was full of very intense people who couldn't stand to get less than 95%. He switched to biology. One summer he worked in a lab culturing bacteria, so he took his masters in microbiology, and his doctoratal thesis was on some aspect of yeast.
I started in physics and wildlife management as dual majors and was able to keep it up for two years before schedule conflicts made it impossible. I finished with 1 course shy of a bio minor and 1 course shy of a math minor.
Unless she has both a huge amount of drive and there is a big pile of money around, don't send her to an ivy league school. There's lots of good schools that are less intense that have good departments in a broad spectrum of subjects. Encourage her to take a bunch of survey courses her first year. As my brother demonstrated, you can change your major 3 times and not lose any time.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
Economics; Law and Economics; Finance.
Judging from all of the remarks that contain words like "nerds" and "nerdy" (on a site whose comments typically reflect a focus on capabilities rather than "office politics", no less), contempt for intelligence is firmly embedded in the American psyche and this nation is doomed to be left in the dust of history.
I would suggest that she move to a country with a future, where intelligence and abilities in the science and engineering fields are still respected and admired.
A nation cannot become spacefaring simply because its people maintain an awareness of what's "hot", who's "in", and how to "network". Given current population growth, pollution emission, and resource consumption rates, I suspect that a people or nation that does not develop the capability to leave this planet is doomed to die with it.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
Douglas Adams famously wrote that a Computer Programmer is a Scientist who could never find their field. For me, it was certainly like that - science didn't seem to hold any new and exciting treasures.
If healing might be their thing, then I'd suggest a career in Acupuncture - the field needs bright minds so that there can be more decent scientific papers like this one. It's a lot different to your average Scientific field - it's very inter-personal, and there is a large degree of "knack" to be learned first while the mechanism continues to be elusive (I give it about 5 years myself before one or two of the key puzzles are unraveled histologically, then the fun will really start). Historically, the most renowned researchers have been accomplished physicians, and there is huge scope for learning complementing skills such as taiji, qigong, tuina massage, herbs... several of which are often combined for a patient.
Of course you need to find a good school ... preferably offering degrees, in-depth Western Medical training and research opportunities. Please feel free to write to me for recommendations.
You might want to point out that as one of the few women in a math/science field that she will get about 500% more attention from the opposite sex.
what about the film industry? there are plenty of math heads doing 3d td work using maya etc.
Go to business school and then go work for that investment bank... wait a sec... never mind
Isn't it crappy that teenagers have to determine what they'll like doing when they're 40, and haven't got enough real life experience to know squat?
but that doesn't mean I want to type for a living. I'd probably do well in a job that can utilize my typing ability but doesn't center on it.
I'm in the middle of Warren Buffett's biography. He's a pretty smart guy and a wiz with numbers. Maybe she would like the world of finance? Being a bazillionaire isn't so bad, I hear.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
I studied music to professional standard and I needed very little maths (basic arithmetic should suffice).
Most of my classmates did not have much of a maths background and they became very proficient musicians.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You have to use math and science to measure ingredients for cooking and baking.....perhaps a good MRS degree?
The nuclear power plant industry is in desparate need of people with an ability in math and science. I just retired as an operations instructor. I had a degree in physics and a masters in math. I was selected by Admiral Rickover for his nuclear officer program in 1974 and served in the nuclear navy on a submarine for several years before taking a career at a large nuclear power plant in Mississippi in 1980. People like myself are retiring in large numbers, and in my case as early as possible (55) due to the job stress and burnout.
There used to be a supply of qualified technical people from the nuclear navy, but that dried up almost completely.
There used to be a supply of Nuclear Engineers and now there are hardly any at all.
Right now there is a very high demand for nuclear operations people who can pass the Generic Fundamentals exam the Nuclear Regulatory Commission requires for someone to obtain an operator's license. Its an exam on Reactor Theory, Thermodynamics and power plant components. They even give you their exam question bank to study.
Its a shame that many engineers with college degrees can't pass it.
I would have to say that the pool of new qualified people is near zero .
Someone who can do math and science would be welcomed with open arms (and $$$) in this industry right now. There are new reactor plant sites desparate for technical people all over the U.S. Many jobs do not require a college degree. Most of the people I worked with did not have degrees and made just as much as I did ( ~$100K ). The attainment of a Reactor Operator or Senior Reactor Operator license is the key. Once I got my Senior Reactor Operator license, it didn't matter how many degrees I had or even if I did not have one.
And by the way, after working nearly 28 years at that plant, I got more radiation exposure from dental x-rays and a chest x-ray than I ever got combined at the nuclear plant. Nothing at all to be afraid of.
The sad thing about nuclear power plants is that the technology is stuck decades in the past. Not cutting edge except from paper cuts.
Ever go to Burning Man? Ever check out the San Jose Museum of Art in California? A lot of cutting-edge art requires significant technical abilities. My school, WPI, has a very strong technical art program.
No, I will not work for your startup
M-Theory was devised to overcome the problem that "Quantum Mechanics" & "The General Theory of Relativity" are inconsistent with each other.
The key concept is that the smallest "thing" is a string, the problems arise as it needs 6 or more space dimensions that are decidedly non-Euclidean. One of the interesting consequences of M-Theory is that it "produces" the graviton without too much effort, and helps explain why there are only 3 families of nuclear particles.
The mathematics involved is somewhat fiendish, to put it mildly - one needs to be more than "merely" competent!
I find M-Theory fascinating, but it is totally beyond my mathematical abilities, to understand except at the most superficial level.
I second the recommendation above of a liberal arts education. And for similar reasons, if this student solicited my opinion, my advice would be to audit classes in as many interesting disciplines as possible, even if they're just barely, vaguely interesting. Until you scratch the surface enough to know what you don't know about econometrics, you don't know enough to assume it's boring. Especially in a university or liberal arts college with a wide selection, you won't know if you like it until you try it, and you can dramatically reduce the risk of getting to your third year, then realizing you don't actually care one way or the other about what you're studying except as a means to a salary. Salaries are nice of course, but it's worth sitting on a few lectures, non-graded, to boost the likelihood that you can enjoy your work as well.
To the OP, I would just say, take note of the part in bold. No good ever came from unsolicited advice.
"I can't imagine how things could get any worse!" (some guy) "That could just be failure of imaginatioÂn on your p
I wanted to point out that a real fun thing to do is... become a sci-fi cartoon writer! I think there are 3 or 4 PhDs on the writing staff of Futurama (Math, Computer Science, etc.), and I think the series creator, David Cohen, has a masters in computer science. Many of them went to Ivy Leagues. They seem like an awesome group of people, too.
I liked your post, especially in light of my sig.
My wife and I are achievers, and we definitely have high expectations for our kids. But the one thing that we make clear to them over and over is that we made mistakes along the road, and we expect them to make mistakes as well. And that they can always come to us for help. And that our intent is always to act in their best interest, even though we will make mistakes from time to time, and even though some of our decisions will be unpopular with them.
Anyhow, you walk a fine line as a parent. Teenagers are mostly lazy people and need nudging just to get 'em out of bed in the morning. Some parents (like yours) go way overboard. In fact, yours went even farther than overboard by taking your life as a shame upon theirs, and pressuring you for it. Hopefully, in time, you'll be able to heal your relationship with them.
Good luck!
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock