Astronaut Loses Tools While Performing an EVA

tpheiska writes "NASA press release states that 'At approx. 3:33 p.m. EST, Piper reported that one of the Braycote lubrication guns had released grease into her toolbag. As she was cleaning the bag and wiping the tools and equipment inside, the bag floated away. Another bag carrying identical equipment is now being shared by Piper and Bowen.' Luckily they had a spare."

Comments

I was just wondering

[black_lbi]

Why isn't the tools bag somehow linked to the suit? with a strap or something ...

Re:I was just wondering

[Cthefuture]

I was thinking the same thing. I mean it's not uncommon to use a tether on your bag while on Earth. It would make even more sense in space.

Re:I was just wondering

[paazin]

Or Velcro(tm) the space-age adhesive!

Re:I was just wondering

[Whorhay]

Seriously, you'd think anything they took with them outside of the station would have a freaking tether.

Re:I was just wondering

[ILikeRed]

The rope came undone. What they need is a spacesuit with a magnetic grappling gun built into the arm of the suit to grab things like this before they float too far away. (Yes, like the Samus suit - who would not want to see that in space?)

Re:I was just wondering

[theaveng]

Well now that the tools are lost, I'm curious to know - will they burn-up in the atmosphere? Maybe someone's house will get hit by a ball of molten steel a few months from now.

Re:I was just wondering

[Konster]

Except they are not on Earth.

You don't want a tether on a bag full of stuff in orbit because it can act in pretty unpredictable ways, flailing about and risking the life of the person that's holding the bag is the first consideration. Guys, this isn't changing the oil on your car. A stray object can damage any one of the many couplings on the suit and rendering that suit inoperable very quickly. Bad news if you happen to be that person inside the suit at that time. Failure on Earth means you pick up the wrench and go back at it. Failure up there is a dead person on a mission with a multiples of billions of dollars pricetag hung off to the side.

Further, they are trained on instrument loss...tools floating off, et cetera. Again, this is not Earth wherein you can grasp around with complete impunity looking for whatever tool that just spun out on the garage floor. Space walkers especially are trained far more on what they cannot do than what they can do. They can reach out very slowly to try and recover something that is drifting off, but any large effort means that they may also join that tool bag on its long, lonely orbit around the Earth. In the small and large scheme of things, an astronaut is of far more value than a wrench or any multitudes thereof.

Also, yes, NASA knows a little bit about redundancy and especially so on space walks.

Give our astronauts a bit of credit here. Tough job. Worst pay on the planet (or near it) for the risk. Awesome view, but colossal vertigo.

A bit of trivia: space walker's microphones are muted for the first 30 seconds of their first space walk. Reason is this: in space, no one can hear you scream. And with the mic off, neither can Houston.

Re:I was just wondering

[arb phd slp]

Well now that the tools are lost, I'm curious to know - will they burn-up in the atmosphere? Maybe someone's house will get hit by a ball of molten steel a few months from now.

Eventually they'll deorbit and burn up, but probably not for a while. The tools were in a stable orbit when they were dropped and they weren't thrown very hard (just enough so they were out of reach by the time it was noticed). It takes quite a bit more delta-v than that to deorbit.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not some sort of tool belt where they all clip in.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Strapon tools? I can see why they don't want to go that direction...

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

You're just begging for a Secret Service visit...

Re:I was just wondering

[NeilTheStupidHead]

Unless the astronaut imparted enough force into the object to either give it escape velocity or cause it to reenter the atmosphere, shouldn't she (in theory) just be able to wait the 90 or so minutes till the next orbit and grab it when the two orbits intersect?

There's always the chance the object will interact with another NEO and not come back, but if no other force acts on it, it should just intersect orbits on the next revolution since it seems like very little force was imparted to the object to change it's trajectory. At least, that's my admittedly limited understanding of orbital mechanics: if two objects in basically identical orbits exchange momentum, then their new orbits will intersect at the same place the original exchange took place.

Re:I was just wondering

[ari_j]

I like the use of the word "luckily" in the summary. Good planning is attributed to luck, but bad planning is blamed as such.

Re:I was just wondering

[tuxgeek]

Strapon tools or Snapon tools
Unless the space walkers are lesbian, and then it's okay

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction...

With that in mind, I'm not sure it's a good idea to be "firing" things from your space suit. Depending on the force, some dangerous things might happen.

Full disclosure: I don't really know anything about working in space - my comment might actually be really stupid and invalid (hence, I posted as ac...)

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnetic grappling gun is fine but seems a bit of overkill. What about a fishing rod with a strong magnet or velcro at the end. cheap, light, reusable off the shelf technology.

Re:I was just wondering

[arb phd slp]

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction...

With that in mind, I'm not sure it's a good idea to be "firing" things from your space suit. Depending on the force, some dangerous things might happen.

Full disclosure: I don't really know anything about working in space - my comment might actually be really stupid and invalid (hence, I posted as ac...)

No, you are right. Unless you fired it directly from your center of gravity, the most likely result is that you'd end up spinning around. If it was a grappling cable (seeing as we don't have magnetic tractor beams yet) you'd get wrapped up in it. Not fun.

Re:I was just wondering

[DinDaddy]

"Children need encouragement. If a kid gets an answer right, tell him it was a lucky guess. That way he develops a good, lucky feeling." - Jack Handy

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

how bout attaching it to the ship/station itself then?

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

if two objects in basically identical orbits exchange momentum, then their new orbits will intersect at the same place the original exchange took place.

Yes, but not at the same time... if the orbital period was at all different, they'd end up waiting a lot longer before they met.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Magnetic boots would avoid that problem.

Re:I was just wondering

[F�an�ro]

A bit of trivia: space walker's microphones are muted for the first 30 seconds of their first space walk. Reason is this: in space, no one can hear you scream. And with the mic off, neither can Houston.

[[citation needed]]

Being unable to call for help if something goes wrong sounds like a major danger, no way nasa would do this.

Re:I was just wondering

[AikonMGB]

I think a gravity gun would be way cooler in space. Come to think of it, even here on Earth =D

Aikon-

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised I haven't seen a post about her accidentally squirting her lube gun... in her toolbag... *wink wink*

http://idle.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/02/2142255

I'm thinking something's been overlooked...

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Worst pay on the planet (or near it) for the risk.

Well that's not exactly right, is it?

Re:I was just wondering

[djupedal]

If you had a chance to see the video, you'd know that that bag was started on a trajectory down and away from her position - an object in motion, stays in motion....

Re:I was just wondering

[MikeDirnt69]

Put her make-up stuff inside it, I bet she won't lose it again!

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

If you let go of an object while in orbit, it doesn't just hover in that exact spot over the earth and wait for you to come back around. If it did, then the shuttle/ISS would likely collide with that object at a very high speed and it'd be game over. I'm not sure if that's what you're implying, but it certainly doesn't work that way

The tool bag or whatever is orbiting the earth at the same speed as the astronaut. If I was that astronaut and I lightly pushed my tool bag away, it would mostly continue in the same orbit that it and I had before, plus it would have a small bit of momentum in whatever direction I shoved it. If I only pushed it lightly, then relative to me it would only be moving away very slowly. If it's moving away from me at one mile per hour, then after a 90 minute orbit, then it would be a mile and a half away from me, still moving away at that same speed.

I guess theoretically, if you ignore any sort of air resistance causing orbital decay, if you shoved the toolbag in a direction that didn't change the altitude of the bag in relation to the earth, then it might eventually your path again, but it's not likely to happen.

Re:I was just wondering

[KeX3]

Oh mod points, where art thou?

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Orbits are elliptical. Look up "ellipse".

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

"Look out below!"

Re:I was just wondering

[fprintf]

How the heck is Houston going to help in the first 30 seconds anyway? Unless you have someone dressed in a space suit to immediately help, it is unlikely that voice instruction is going to do anything. Stuff tends to happen catastrophically, and those things that don't the space walker is well trained to handle.

It sounds plausible. No idea if it is true, but who on earth wants to hear the dying gurgle of a good friend?

Re:I was just wondering

[danwesnor]

It's like a motorcycle - once you lose control of it, get as far away from it as possible. A bag on a strap will come back and hit you, wrap around you, your arms, your legs, damage your suit, etc. It could pull you off the platform. And don't forget that even though the bag is "weightless", it has a very high mass, higher than what you'd carry on Earth, and therefore pack quite a wollop.

Re:I was just wondering

[sam_paris]

1) This is a small bag of tools we're talking about, not a giant ACME anvil. Having a bag tethered to you is not suddenly going to mean chaos and carnage. Besides, it could be strapped to the spacesuit in such a way that it wouldn't be flailing about.

2) The astronaut is not going to go flying off into space, as you suggested. 99.99% of space-walks are tethered (ie attached to the shuttle, space station etc)

3) As another commenter says below. I would like to see where Nasa says they mute the microphones. What if there was a problem in that period of time? Something which could potentially risk the entire mission, but which could be avoided by getting information from ground control?

Re:I was just wondering

[tom17]

I think the original poster may be correct on this one.

He was not implying that the object would stay still, rather that after the 'shove', the object would now be in a different orbit. The two orbits initially intersect at the point that the 'shove' finishes and no more force has been exerted in changing it's orbit.

Now picture two orbital paths around the planet, but one is at a slightly different angle to the other. They intersect at 2 points, 180 degrees apart. Therefore, the object would stop moving away, relative to you, after 1/4 an orbit. After half an orbit, the orbits would intersect again and you could pick up the spanner.

This, of course assumes that the 'shove' only had a lateral (left/right) component. Any component of force that was up,down, forwards or backwards relative to the initial direction of traffic would complicate that a lot and I do not know how to "in my head" work that out.

The chances of *only* giving the tool a force in the correct plane is, however, pretty unlikely, so the spanner is likely lost for sure.

Tom...

Re:I was just wondering

[geobeck]

You don't want a tether on a bag full of stuff in orbit because it can act in pretty unpredictable ways...

That's why you attach it with Velcro. Astronauts use Velcro quite a lot to attach small pouches to them while inside the ISS. It would seem to make sense to do the same thing outside.

Re:I was just wondering

[khallow]

No idea if it is true, but who on earth wants to hear the dying gurgle of a good friend?

Someone who wants to know something bad just happened and figure out what that was.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

The tool bag or whatever is orbiting the earth at the same speed as the astronaut.

Before it escaped, yes.

it would mostly continue in the same orbit that it and I had before, plus it would have a small bit of momentum in whatever direction I shoved it

Now its speed is different...

If it's moving away from me at one mile per hour, then after a 90 minute orbit, then it would be a mile and a half away from me, still moving away at that same speed.

Well, the speed will vary since the orbit is elliptical, but you've got the general idea, I guess.

I guess theoretically, if you ignore any sort of air resistance causing orbital decay,

Assuming it's not passing through the atmosphere? Yeah, that's a good assumption...

if you shoved the toolbag in a direction that didn't change the altitude of the bag in relation to the earth

Even if you did. Recall, orbits are elliptical.

it might eventually your path again, but it's not likely to happen.

It definitely would cross your path, but most likely at a different time.

Re:I was just wondering

[philspear]

Guys, this isn't changing the oil on your car.

They actually were changing the oil on my car, which just so happens to be in space, you insensitive clod!

Re:I was just wondering

[Scumbumbo]

They may not be able to help a spacewalker in the first 30 seconds, but leaving the mic on gives Houston and the rest of the crew 30 more seconds to initiate getting help to them! I too can't believe they do this without something more than anecdotal evidence.

Re:I was just wondering

[stainlesssteelpat]

With my brother.....

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Even if the force was in the correct plane, if the velocity were different the orbit would be a different ellipse and the period would be different. Hence same place and same time wouldn't happen.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

With the way the economy is going, that strap would put them over budget people. Best we not ask scary questions like that in the future.

Re:I was just wondering

[vlm]

Eventually they'll deorbit and burn up, but probably not for a while. The tools were in a stable orbit when they were dropped and they weren't thrown very hard (just enough so they were out of reach by the time it was noticed). It takes quite a bit more delta-v than that to deorbit.

Air resistance will get it in a couple weeks at most.

Something the size and density of a space suit takes about six weeks to deorbit due to air resistance at the ISS altitude.

It's an interesting thing to consider, will the much smaller tool bag with its vastly inferior surface area to volume ratio compensate for the (probably) higher density of the tool bag? It is smaller, so it should deorbit much faster because it has much more surface are per volume thus more air drag. On the other hand, the metal tools in the bag are probably somewhat denser than an old space suit.

The ISS has about a pound of force from air resistance, roughly. The toolbag has probably a thousandth the surface area, but probably only a millionth the weight. So it'll probably deorbit about a thousand times faster than the ISS. I am guessing this guess is only accurate to maybe two orders of magnitude.

I'm heard that a hot air balloon (just the fabric canopy) would deorbit in about a revolution due to air resistance, whereas a steel I-beam, pointy end forward (good luck due to gravity gradient stabilization) would not deorbit for decades. That claim that I heard is probably off by even more orders of magnitude.

See link below about the suitsat launched from the station, pictures, how long it lasted, etc.

http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/articles/SuitSat/

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

A stray object can damage any one of the many couplings on the suit and rendering that suit inoperable very quickly.

All the more reason to tie it down.
Ever hear of a fanny pack? They're not exactly flailing about.

In this case, yes, the astronaut was more valuable, since they had spare tools.
But the fact is the astronaut is not as valuable as the mission, or the equipment. Remember when our astronauts splashed down into the ocean? They pick up the capsule, first.
The air force has a similar policy - bailing out of a malfunctioning billion dollar jet is just not acceptable. You stay in that thing and try to save it. If you fail, it's pilot error.

You may think astronaut's get bad pay for the risk, but there are tons of people out there (myself included) who would do it for free. Hell, I'd even pay them (though I'm sure I couldn't afford it).

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Begging??? I think he just offered dinner and a pre-Gauntanomo night cap.... AC because he ain't my mate

Re:I was just wondering

[Kingrames]

"How the heck is Houston going to help in the first 30 seconds anyway?"

Call the Justice League? duh.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

Spanner.

LOL.

Re:I was just wondering

[philspear]

Slightly off topic, a TV show I was watching a years ago mentioned these guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet) which fired small bullet shaped rockets, as potential space-based weapons (in case the moonraker lasers didn't get developed in time to fight the commies in space, I guess). If NASA finds a need for a grappling gun, they could maybe attach a mini rocket to it.

Of course, the wiki page mentions a long list of problems with the rocket gun itself, and a rocket-based grapple would still not solve the problem of an astronaut being pulled toward whatever they were grabbing. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Re:I was just wondering

[squoozer]

Simple solution then... a space age tool belt. Just attach the tools to a vest that is worn over the suit. Clips of some sort come to mind but Velcro would probably be a better option.

I can see what you mean about not wanting a bag tied to the suit but then why would you go out into space carrying what amounts to a old fashions tool box?

Re:I was just wondering

[petermgreen]

Worst pay on the planet (or near it) for the risk.
Got any figures to back up that claim?

It seems to me that a spaceflight is fairly risky (just under 2% of shuttle flights have resulted in a dead crew afaict) but most astronauts only do a few in thier career and I would be very surprised if astronauts were not paid a decent wage.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

Yeah, totally.

We have the same policy with firemen, policemen, and soldiers.

It's complete and utter bullshit.
Communication between Earth and Space is all you have. You would never intentionally sever that.

Re:I was just wondering

[vlm]

I recall a good sci fi story about this, two ships land on an alien space station, the media crew steals a bunch of artifacts and plans to run for it, so the scientist crew steals their fuel and shoves them off into space. The media crew's pilot isn't concerned because he knows they'll be back in another revolution but the media (and some of the scientists) panic because they think they station will drift off forever.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

shouldn't she (in theory) just be able to wait the 90 or so minutes till the next orbit and grab it when the two orbits intersect?

Well, let's assume she is in a stationary orbit. Let's say she gave it enough force to move at 90mph relative to herself (the speed of a baseball fast pitch) which is probably much faster than it actually is moving.
Divide the orbital distance at that altitude by 90 miles & that's how many hours it will take to come around.
Yes, it would intersect if following the same orbital path, but that is highly unlikely.

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

Yes, your last point about the timing is what I was thinking but didn't say.

Re:I was just wondering

[tom17]

if the force was in the correct vector, the velocity would not be different

Re:I was just wondering

[Deadstick]

If you're in orbit and you push an object away, you and the object are now in two orbits that intersect at the point of departure. In principle, both of you will pass through the same point the next time round, but not necessarily at the same time.

For example, if you push the object backward along the flight path, it will now have a slightly lower velocity which will take it to a lower altitude on the other side of the earth, and then back up to your altitude. But that orbit will have a shorter period, so by the time you get back to the start point, the object will have been and gone.

Also, at the altitudes where the Shuttle flies, you're not truly out of the atmosphere...you're still hitting gas molecules from time to time, and every impact takes a tiny bit of energy out of your orbit, which ever-so-slowly brings it downward; that's why low-orbiting satellites don't stay up terribly long. When you eject an object backwards and lower its orbit, it will dip a little deeper into the atmosphere and incur a tiny bit more drag than you do -- which will prevent it ever getting back up to your height again. When a newly-launched satellite deploys its various antennas and stuff, it often has to eject various covers that protected them during launch, and it ejects them back along the flight path for precisely that reason.

rj

Re:I was just wondering

[AigariusDebian]

And even more importantly - if something does go wrong, the dying astronaut might be able to say what it was before dying. That chance alone is move valuable than any controller discomfort.

Re:I was just wondering

[shaitand]

Two astronauts who need tools each have a bag of tools. That isn't foresight, good planning, or much luck its just a positive outlook.

The astronauts now have half the tools they need and are forced to work at reduced capacity.

Luck would be if a third tool wielder forgot his bag last week, planning would be if an extra set that wasn't needed was stowed away in a cabinet yesterday. This is just bad news that doesn't seem to be devastating being printed in rose colored print.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

if the force was in the correct vector, the velocity would not be different

Correct, but that's not the same as saying:

This, of course assumes that the 'shove' only had a lateral (left/right) component.

A purely lateral force could still cause a change in velocity.

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

I also agree that it's nonsense, but along those same lines, apparently part of the Apollo 11 contingency plans if the astronauts were not able to successfully take off from the moon after landing was for NASA to cut off communications and let them die "alone". The national archives has a draft copy of the speech that Nixon would have given had that happened.

http://www.answers.com/topic/in-event-of-moon-disaster

Answers.com isn't the most authoritative source out there, but there's plenty of other stuff online to verify this info if you care to look.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a purse or a handbag...

Re:I was just wondering

[IceCreamGuy]

I would imagine the severely limited mobility of a space suite would make grabbing tools from an out of line-of-sight pouch (don't forget they're wearing a helmet with a restricted field of view) completely out of the question.

Re:I was just wondering

[Shotgun]

With the cost of lifting the tools that far off the ground, I would expect that there is very little steel used in most of the tools. Your magnet gun won't work very well on aluminum.

Re:I was just wondering

[Hognoxious]

if two objects in basically identical orbits exchange momentum, then their new orbits will intersect at the same place the original exchange took place.

A rifle is in orbit pointed stright down (i.e towards the centre of the earth). It's a loaded rifle. What happens if it fires?

I can envisage a case where they'll never intersect.

Re:I was just wondering

[Shotgun]

There are already some toys that are basically velcro balls. Cheap, light, safe, effective. Sounds like you've got a winner.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

NASA can't afford $30 a month for a tethering plan?

Re:I was just wondering

[bedammit]

Having worked at NASA... I'd like to clarify. There are definitely difficulties when items are tethered, to a space suit or a vehicle while in space, however these are details which are resolved. Astronauts use an MMWS (modified mini-workstation tool stowage) caddy. This keeps tools from floating away as well as has tethers. You can see an image of the hooks used here. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/122027main_hooks.jpg Additionally, You can see a repair bag here. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/122016main_crack_repair_bag.jpg Note the loops and elastic bands. This is how tools are contained in a repair bag. The way the bag was lost was when astronaut Piper was pulling items out of the crew air lock bag. While searching the bag the tool bag (which was in side the larger bag) floated up and out and she lost control of it. It then floated away. I may have been missed when transferring items. In the video the bag lost looks like an MMWS. Which is sorta like a utility belt. Things like this happen... Fault or no fault.. BeDammit

Re:I was just wondering

[History's Coming To]

Agree. The two orbits will continue to intersect if it's all in physics-land and everything is working on the same plane etc. This was, in fact, the central premise and punchline to an Arthur C Clarke short story called Jupiter V, it's very good and I recommend it. There you go, I must be right, fiction agrees with me.

Re:I was just wondering

[Hognoxious]

For example, if you push the object backward along the flight path, it will now have a slightly lower velocity which will take it to a lower altitude on the other side of the earth, and then back up to your altitude.

By throwing it backward you're slowing it down, so you've reduced its kinetic energy. You haven't increased its potential energy. So it has lower total energy - it must move to a lower orbit.

You would move to a slightly higher one too, as the "recoil" is effectively thrust.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Why in the world are we talking about planes when we're in a circular (or elliptical) orbit around a more-or-less spherical planet?

Also, intersecting orbits don't necessarily intersect at the same time.

Re:I was just wondering

[geekoid]

Juast hold onto somthing before you fire.
Bear in mind it wuldn't actually need to move that fast so it would be fired with the velocity of a bullet.

In fact, you would probably have a device with tiny thruster you could control.
Ot a bigger thing that can 'scoop' it up.

Re:I was just wondering

[Marc Desrochers]

There might be some concern about pulling off the velco and having it tear the suit. The tearing sound of velcro would freak me right the hell out during a spacewalk!

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

No. Just no.

Both of your orbits will now have greater eccentricity, 90 degrees out of phase.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Actually, perhaps I was too harsh: your average height will be higher, and its average height will be lower. You're generally more concerned about the extremes in an elliptical orbit than you are about the average height anyway.

Re:I was just wondering

[nospam007]

"A bag on a strap will come back and hit you, wrap around you, your arms, your legs, damage your suit, etc."

For all those above with reasons why it would be a bad idea to tether the bag, it was _supposed_ to be tethered, just as all the tools inside it are tethered to the bag.

Re:I was just wondering

[Kozz]

No idea if it is true, but who on earth wants to hear the dying gurgle of a good friend?

I think the professional relationship comes first, friendship second. People in a variety of earthly professions see death every day. Do you really think ignorance is the ideal choice here?

Re:I was just wondering

[The MAZZTer]

But you'd be keeping the bag close to you at all times, so it would be a SHORT strap, yes? The shorter the strap, the less chance it could do any of those things.

Re:I was just wondering

[djupedal]

>Orbits are elliptical.
/
And gravity sucks...look up 'Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica'.

Re:I was just wondering

[arth1]

Stuff tends to happen catastrophically, and those things that don't the space walker is well trained to handle.

Not that well trained, if they can't handle a minor bag incident without losing equipment.

Re:I was just wondering

[Deadstick]

What Clone54321 said. For example, if your original orbit was circular, the object's new orbit will be slightly eccentric. The point of departure will be its apogee, and its perigee will occur on the other side of the earth. It WILL come back to that point one orbit later, assuming no perturbation by drag.

rj

Re:I was just wondering

[rev_sanchez]

A space purse would look lame and according to my wife it would need to match their boots.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

If we're talking about air resistance, then yes, the orbit will degenerate. Gravity, however, won't cause this by itself.

Re:I was just wondering

[TooMuchToDo]

Not to mention that it doesn't take 30 seconds to die when exposed to the vacuum of space. I believe it takes more like 2 minutes, plenty of time for someone to do something for you.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Two minutes it may take, but thirty seconds may yet mean the difference between life and death.

Re:I was just wondering

[istartedi]

Yah, sounds like total BS to me. Most of these people have military experience. They could have just as easily ended up in Iraq with their buddy dying right next to them. Nobody is going to shut the mic off to "spare them their feelings".

Re:I was just wondering

[bugs2squash]

so the scenario is that the suit is evacuated of air and yet the astronaut can still speak somehow through the vacuum.

This just gets better.

Besides, if there was something wrong in the first 30 seconds all NASA would get from me is...

Psssssttttt, Oh, Shit...

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

That could be worked around.

If there's a clear line of sight both ahead and behind the gun (it could be fixed above the shoulder, for instance), it could conceivably fire a twin projectile in the other direction, thus nullifying the recoil.

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

The resulting orbit would be quite elliptical, so I figure it'd 'hit', but take at least a few years before the atmospheric braking during the near point slows the bullet down enough for a capture.

Re:I was just wondering

[TooMuchToDo]

I'm just saying that if you know something is wrong, and the IIS arm is in the right area, you could grab the person and push them into the airlock. Is it a sure thing? No. But if I'm on an EVA and about to die, I want someone to do something.

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

In this case volume means hardly anything. It's all about the surface area to mass ratio. A solid ball made of metal will stay in orbit longer than one of the same size made out of styrofoam.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

It is if the paychecks are drawn on a terrestrial bank. Are you implying that our astronauts are getting kickbacks from aliens? :)

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

We have tons of contingency plans for everything.
Whether or not we'd use them is a very different matter.

Either way - there is no "plan" to end communications. The plan only details of what to do when communications has ended.

That memo states:

"AFTER THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT, AT THE POINT WHEN NASA ENDS COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE MEN:"

They would end communications only after the astronauts had ended communications with them, silly. How long do we keep listening for and trying to talk to little rovers? Once communications have been silent for a sufficient period of time, they are presumed dead, and NASA announces it.

The memo then details what to do (have a clergy dude perform a ceremony similar to burial at sea).

Re:I was just wondering

[SleptThroughClass]

"Hello, I'm Clippy.
Are you trying to hit the Earth?
Try firing your rifle directly opposite the direction of your ship's orbit.
You would get faster results if you upgrade your rifle to one which can fire at the same speed as your ship's speed."

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why, if you're a carnivorous spacemonster attached to the hull of a spaceship, it's important to eat the first emerging astronaut within thirty seconds of them emerging from the airlock.

You get bonus points and extra helpings. They send out a second astronaut to see what happened to the first, and then a third to see what happened to the second...

Re:I was just wondering

[Frnknstn]

So what you are saying is NASA needs to drop the ego and outfit all the astronauts with fanny packs?

Re:I was just wondering

[Muad'Dave]

How about the 'Project Westford' needles?

...a ring of 4.8x10^8 copper dipole antennas [in the shape of] 1.78cm long and ... 17.8um diameter needles was placed in orbit...

They were supposed to de-orbit in 3 years from launch (in 1966) - guess what? They're _still_ re-entering! I suspect that Stevenson and the military told the rest of the world what they wanted to hear. 480 million needles! Sheesh!

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell?

If the object has angular momentum, then it has its own gravity.

You mean mass. Angular momentum has nothing to do with gravity!

Why are we even talking about the gravity of such small objects, anyway? Air resistance has a much larger effect...

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0CE2D7103CF931A25754C0A96F958260

There, written by Safire himself:

If that failed, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin could not be rescued. Mission Control would have to ''close down communications'' and, as the world agonized, let the doomed astronauts starve to death or commit suicide.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

Mission Control wouldn't have to do anything. This was when we were going to the moon. We wanted any information we could get.

We would certainly be interested in the effects of being stranded in space in a little capsule, both on the human body and on the mind.

To think that communications would be cut off is retarded. What's plausible is that the public would be told they were dead, or that they had shut off their communications equipment. NASA would still be in contact with them and their equipment til the end, and for some time after.

These are fucking scientists.

Re:I was just wondering

[sideshow]

And even more importantly - if something does go wrong, the dying astronaut might be able to say what it was before dying. That chance alone is move valuable than any controller discomfort.

Very true. In "The Right Stuff", Tom Wolfe wrote that when test pilots were about to crash they would yell into the radio "I TRIED A! I TRIED B!" etc etc. to make sure that their death would yield some useful info on what happened to the plane.

Re:I was just wondering

[idanity]

the bag floated away, not tools, so in essence, now we have some bag floating around in space...i guess its better than a bag, and a tether...lol

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

Well no kidding things might not have played out like that, we'll never know because they were able to take off from the moon.

But we know for a fact that there was a documented contingency plan created by the government that included cutting off communications before the Apollo astronauts had died if they were unable to leave the moon. We don't know if the plan would've actually been followed, but we know that the Nixon administration had formed that plan. The whole idea of cutting of communications was probably pretty stupid, because the astronauts on the moon would've been able to continue broadcasting, and other outfits besides NASA would probably have been able to receive and transmit communications with them. I don't know if that plan was ever vetted through NASA, and I don't really care. I wasn't trying to prove any sort of point other than noting that this little piece of trivia existed.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

...the dying astronaut might be able to say what it was before dying....

...My God.. It's full of stars...

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, if there was a force acting on it, there is no possibility that velocity is the same. If the velocity is the same there is no acceleration. F = ma. If v_a = v_b then a = 0.

From the summary though it seems like it's a moot point since the NASA article says that the bag floated away implying that it was moving at greater velocity thatn the IIS

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds ridiculous I think. I would imagine someone with some common sense would pose the question. How can we best tether our tools in a manner that will still be safe for all parties involved? Then Nasa could assign 10 engineers to figure it out. Maybe they come up with a tether that is safe for use with all suits. Or maybe a special suit that is used during maintenance that may have a tether applied. Maybe even special coupling covers. They could even call them, coupling covers. I don't think I really need to keep giving out ideas.

I suppose once the second tool bag floats off into outer space, the space mission screams to a halt because there are no tools to fix the broken equipment. NASA is going to say, "Gee I wonder how we can tether our tools so we don't have to spend money to get another tool bag into outer space, again."

Re:I was just wondering

[Kagura]

Found a video of the astronaut losing the tool bag. After it got out of reach, there was simply no going after it.

Re:I was just wondering

[ari_j]

It depends on the tools. I don't know the procedure they were performing but would imagine that the two space-walking workers were not performing exactly the same tasks. If they both needed the same tool for their jobs, then yes it's mostly a matter of circumstance that they can complete the task without the missing tool. (Although I wouldn't rule out it being a side benefit known to NASA that would have been replaced with a redundant tool if they weren't already both going to have one.)

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

Bear in mind it wuldn't actually need to move that fast so it would be fired with the velocity of a bullet.

A rubber band crossbow thingy would provide enough power. A rare earth magnet for locking on to pull it back.

And yes, strap yourself down.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

The United States had active contingency plans as recently as 1998 to drop up to 30 nuclear warheads on North Korea in case of an attack on Seoul, according to declassified documents from the Central Intelligence Agency and other U.S. government departments.

We also have a contingency plan to invade Canada, squirrel our officials into mountains, and nuke the hell out of everyone.

Most contingency plans are nothing more than psychological. Most are designed to NOT be used. The goal is to get people to find something that works by hanging a retarded "or else" over their heads. They are not well thought out, nor do they need to be.

So what's your point? You first brought up that answers.com article, and hoped no one would read it. I read it, and showed you that it in fact did not state what you said it stated.

You then pull up an article by Safire, pronouncing it as "by Safire himself". Safire had nothing to do with NASA. He was a speech writer.

Your evidence is about a memo and a speech.
It has nothing to do with what NASA would have done.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

If the object has angular momentum, then it has its own gravity.

You mean mass. Angular momentum has nothing to do with gravity!

Well, to be pedantic, if an object has angular momentum, then it must have mass (and rotation). And if it has mass, then it must have gravity.

QED

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

bailing out of a malfunctioning billion dollar jet is just not acceptable

Yeah right. They've bailed out of B1's before.

Heck, a pilot got busted for not bailing out of his fighter when he was ordered to ditch it.

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

You're kind of a dumbass.

The office of the President created a contingency plan that included cutting off communications to astronauts stuck on the moon. I never claimed that that piece of trivia contained some sort of profound or even useful insight. But if you don't find that at least a little bit interesting or amusing or even humorous, then I'm not really interested in having a conversation with you.

I have no doubt that the contingency plans for invading Canada would be a fascinating read, even though I know it's entirely unlikely to happen.

What's your point? That I didn't prove that NASA had diabolical plans to strand Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin on the moon and laugh while they starved to death? I'll agree that I didn't prove that. But I wasn't trying to.

Lighten up dude.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

The air force has a similar policy - bailing out of a malfunctioning billion dollar jet is just not acceptable. You stay in that thing and try to save it. If you fail, it's pilot error.

Just like the B-2 bomber crash the pilots ejected from, which was quickly figured out to be a faulty sensor design? The one where the pilots didn't get in trouble at all?

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

Uh, it's not acceptable unless they order you to.

If they order you to, you do what they order you to do, but still expect to be blamed for it, especially if it's a test vehicle they're trying to get $$$ for.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

You made claims, suggesting that they were NASA's plans.

I showed them to be nothing more than a speech and memo.

Until you come up with the text of the plan itself, any discussion of it is pointless. When you do come up with the text of the plan itself, we can then discuss whether or not NASA had anything to do with it (they didn't) and whether or not we would have executed the plan (we wouldn't).

You tried to wield a piece of trivia around to get an insightful or interesting mod, and I called out that trivia as hokum. Yes, hokum.

Re:I was just wondering

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>99.99% of space-walks are tethered

You either greatly overestimated how many spacewalks have taken place or you you are planning for the future:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spacewalks_and_moonwalks

We've done 7 untethered spacewalks, so your percentage should probably use 2 or fewer significant digits.

-b

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

Uh, it's not acceptable unless they order you to.

Depending on how bad it is, yes it is acceptable.

As for getting money, we're talking about a pilot with an income south of $100k up against a plane worth millions. There are limits to what they can charge you for. It's just not worth it unless they want to punish him for it, and that doesn't happen often, because the standard is they have to prove almost deliberate negligence - not just a mistake.

Pilots don't like to lose their rides, and an ejection seat isn't as nice as a roller coaster. Limbs are often broken, and the pilot knows this. That's part of why the guy flew the fighter in while missing half a wing.

Re:I was just wondering

[sam_paris]

talk about anal-retentive

Re:I was just wondering

[Kagura]

Now I ride the Easystreet bus to Karmaville. ;)

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on Guys - this is not earth!... geez...
I know the title says astronaut and all... but come on guys... this is not earth.

OK.. well on earth we lose shit all the time... in space we should have a better plan... I mean really... come on guys.. this is SPACE!.

Re:I was just wondering

[AndersOSU]

Unless they all yelled "I tried ejecting," I can think of a better way to make sure that information get's back to the project leaders.

Re:I was just wondering

[v1]

There is still atmosphere at those elevations. Very LITTLE of it, but it's there, and will de-orbit objects over time. May take a decade or more but it'll happen. Obviously the farther you get up the less there is of it. Considering the ridiculous speed the shuttle is orbiting at, I assume the amount of atmosphere up there is extremely small.

Re:I was just wondering

[cowscows]

Thanks for introducing me to a new word. Hokum.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Its hard to get help above like 20 feet off the ground; how the fuck are you going to get help 100 miles up??

Re:I was just wondering

[vlm]

Altitude is critical. Westford needles were between 3500 and 3800 km. ISS is around 350 km.

Check out the wikipedia for the barometric formula as seen below. The pressure drops exponentially with altitude so reentry delay should increase (very roughly) more than exponentially. Those things are going to up there pretty much forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometric_formula

I really have no idea what the Westford guys were thinking, boosting that high and then BSing everyone that they'll be down in 3 years. High tech redneck "Hold my beer and watch this", said the rocket scientists. Maybe it was some peacenik homemade ICBM shield, would have been kind of cool had they gotten away with it.

Re:I was just wondering

[v1]

tho the bag was pushed ever so slightly toward the earth. This lowers its orbit. There's nothing to slow the bag down so it will continue toward the earth at that speed. Considering its orbital speed is that of the astronaut, getting into a lower orbit with the same velocity will probably cause it to acquire an elliptical orbit.

Unless it's ellipse crosses the earth, which is very likely judging from that release, in which case it'll de-orbit itself sometime in the near future. Maybe days, maybe months, I have no idea. Things like this progress exponentially, so it's hard to judge exactly when it will start to plummet based on initial release.

What cracks me up is the posters speculating on them just waiting for the shuttle to make one orbit to just reach out and grab it. That's so wrong for so many reasons I don't know where to start.

Re:I was just wondering

[KudyardRipling]

Until they learn that (s)he routed through China, Russia, and/or some other nation that is not so friendly to USA interests. Let's see Fort Meade earn its keep. If (s)he used TOR this will be the acid test.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

No, I mean, get money for as in "Hey guys, look how awesome this new plane is. It costs 3 billion a piece, but it's so worth it. We had 12 crashes, but they were all due to pilot error."

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

who's to say the rest of the crew can't hear you? the comment said HOUSTON...

if something were to happen, the only thing that matters is the people CLOSEST to you, not the ones hundreds of miles away

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why isn't the tools bag somehow linked to the suit? with a strap or something ...

It was a woman - she probably took it off because it clashed with her space suit or something.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Microthrusters on the back of the suit that will counter the force creating zero movement.

Oh...science fiction.

Re:I was just wondering

[treeves]

Tidal forces also cause an orbit to degenerate, not just air, although with a toolbag presumably these would be small.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah you are.

Re:I was just wondering

[Urkki]

Unless the astronaut imparted enough force into the object to either give it escape velocity or cause it to reenter the atmosphere, shouldn't she (in theory) just be able to wait the 90 or so minutes till the next orbit and grab it when the two orbits intersect?

I think the object will have a different orbital perioid. Or to put it the other way, if the object is moving at just 1 m/s relative to the astronaut, then ninety minutes later it'll be over 5 kilometers away. And I don't think being in orbit changes this at all. Just think about it from the astronauts point of view, there is no force that would suddenly make the lost object get closer, it'll keep getting farther and farther away until it's on the other side of the planet, which will take quite a while.

Re:I was just wondering

[Kagura]

Unless the bullet is traveling at a high enough velocity to strike the earth before its sideways motion can move it enough keep it from striking the earth and keep it in orbit.

Re:I was just wondering

[bckrispi]

"In Space, no one can hear your Velcro tear."

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Incorrect.

Acceleration due to gravity is a constant approx. 32 ft/sec^2. Yet, a circular orbit is constant-speed. If "same velocity" == "no acceleration" this wouldn't be possible.

Unless we're talking about vector velocity, in which case, the magnitude of the velocity is the key factor.

Re:I was just wondering

[Neanderthal Ninny]

Yes, it was tethered but she removed the tether when she went to clean out the grease in the bag.
Like any earth bound engineer that ever used an paste dispensing device it never perfectly cuts off so it "oozed" after turning off so she was cleaning that "ooze". This "bag" will be another piece space debris that the space shuttle, ISS and other people will need to look out for unless someone retrieves it.
It is one of those "Tim Allen" moments she will never forget.

Re:I was just wondering

[greyhueofdoubt]

Sorry if you were offended or anything. Describing a number of discrete events numbering no more than 3 significant figures with a 4-significant-figure percentage just bugs me. It's like "more unique," "should of," "try and do x," etc.

Some people plant trees. I plant little anal-retentive seeds of wisdom. I nourish them with karma.

-b

Re:I was just wondering

[initialE]

Again, in "The Right Stuff", it is attributed to Chuck Yeager the quote "Ejecting from a rocket plane is like committing suicide to keep yourself from dying". Or something like that. "I TRIED A! I TRIED B! Tell me what else I can try!" - That was the actual goal of the pilot in yelling out their actions.

Re:I was just wondering

[rdoger6424]

There isn't sound in a vacuum...

Re:I was just wondering

[Jerry Smith]

Agree. The two orbits will continue to intersect if it's all in physics-land and everything is working on the same plane etc. This was, in fact, the central premise and punchline to an Arthur C Clarke short story called Jupiter V, it's very good and I recommend it. There you go, I must be right, fiction agrees with me.

And a grand story it was! SPOILERALERT

.But the subject in the story was kicked straight to the planets surface, so the circle-velocity (English no first language) would still be the same, hence the subject would somehow end up in the same orbit as the point of take-of. Somehow this reallife story suggests that the tool-thingy was not directly aimed at the planets surface, but near the movement plane of the space-station.

Re:I was just wondering

[cjanota]

Just because she let go of the bag does not mean that it is no longer in orbit. When you let go, the bag doesn't just stop in that point over the earth. It is still in orbit (pretty much the same orbit as the station.) As it slowly drifts away, the orbit of the station and the bag slowly become different.

Re:I was just wondering

[againjj]

The orbits of the tool bag and the shuttle will intersect at between one and four places, depending on the direction it was pushed in. Also, the touch points are not necessarily 180 degrees apart.

However, that is just a niggling point. The real point is that the two ellipses are different, and the orbital periods are going to be slightly different as a result. Therefore, after exactly one orbital period of the shuttle, the tool bag will not be there. The 90 minutes/1 mph/1.5 mi calculation is probably off, but the idea is correct -- the bag will take a different amount of time to get back to the orbits' intersection point than the shuttle. Not much different, but space is big.

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

Uhhh... That's where the 'years' comes in.

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

You do realize that the generals in charge of obtaining aircraft also tend to be pilots, right? A plane that's too prone to crashes is going to be rejected.

And I'm unaware of any current AF plane that had even a sixth the crashes you mention during testing.

Cars get into accidents, planes crash occasionally. Especially when you have a fleet as large and as old as the USAF.

Re:I was just wondering

[pipingguy]

Does Velcro work in orbit?

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

BULLSHIT I'm an Ironworker, all of my tools are tied to me - this protects people and property that may be damaged if I drop something. I also see many Ironworkers who refuse to use the tethers because they claim that they are dangerous. I've personally never dropped a tool, however, last week a fellow worker dropped a eight pound impact gun 160' to the ground, destroying an $500.00 tool and ALMOST taking out a safety inspector at the time. ANYONE WHO SAYS TETHERS DON'T WORK IS A FOOL. Please don't take this as a personal insult, but many people just don't know.

Re:I was just wondering

[Kagura]

What? If you're in low-earth orbit and you shoot a hypothetical bullet at 300km/sec while pointing your gun directly at the center of the earth, your bullet will impact the earth in less than a second. That's a hell of a quick de-orbit maneuver.

What's this about years, now?

Re:I was just wondering

[GrayNimic]

That's the point. The lost small bag was supposed to be tethered inside of the larger bag which was being cleaned. That attachment failed, because either a) wasn't done properly b) had bad hardware c) was aversely affected by the grease.

Re:I was just wondering

[A New Normalcy]

Which is why the solar panels on the ISS are turned on edge when in the Earth's shadow.

Re:I was just wondering

[TheLink]

I am not an astronaut, but is it really "stuff happens" or is it that the training/practice didn't stick enough?

Before I watched the video I was actually expecting her to have bumped it away by accident so I was a bit surprised to see that she actually pushed/pulled it away.

From the video it looks like she got distracted by the problem at hand (or was in a rush) and fell into the "Earth mode" of "rummaging through stuff".

I heard that astronauts in space get used to being able to put stuff in "midair" and having it stay there while they do something else - in "earth mode" you can't do that - since it will hit the ground soon after.

In "Earth mode", if you push a bag away to uncover the stuff you want to get at, it usually stops moving soon after.

In orbit, the bag tends to continue moving. So you'd have to:
0) Make sure you are secured in position - very important step :)
1) move stuff away and stop it at the new position you want it to be.
2) Let go and it will stay there (until you or someone bumps it).

To me she didn't lose control of the bag - she was in control of the bag. She momentarily lost awareness of the situation, and so miscontrolled the bag.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

You just can't accept that you were wrong, can you? Oh, well.

Re:I was just wondering

[bedammit]

Maybe, However, if you have a chance to visit one of the Space Museums you should ask if they have a pair of gloves that the astronauts use. Try them on... They aren't as tactile and mobile as you would expect. So if an item unexpected moves your reactions are pretty much tuned to respond to things falling not floating in an unpredictable path based on how it was bumped/etc. Have a look at this link where as I mentioned in my original post. Items in the airlock bag weren't transferred properly. In other words, they weren't all tethered once put into the air lock bag. http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts126/081119fd6/index2.html

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

straight to the planets surface

You mean tangential to the orbit. (Not being pedantic here: just trying to be helpful.)

the circle-velocity would still be the same

This is where that book over-simplifies... you'd have to apply a precisely calculated force to change angle and not velocity (i.e. magnitude of the velocity vector before and after the force)... Lv1 != Lv2 and |v1| == |v2|. Giving something an arbitrary push, even if you pushed it tangential to your orbit, would probably change both angle and linear velocity, which would change the eccentricity of the orbit – and the orbital period would change (that's how long it takes to make a full orbit). Different orbital period = you'll never get it back, because although your orbits will both return to this point, you'll be there at different times.

Note that I said "never" get it back. That's a bit over-simplistic as well: theoretically, after enough orbits, you'll both pass that same point at the same time. However, practically speaking, this will either (1) take an impractically long time, perhaps hundreds or thousands of orbits since your velocities won't differ by much, or (2) never happen because either your orbit or that of the spacecraft degenerates (and it'd probably be your orbit...) before you meet at the same place at the same time.

Re:I was just wondering

[TheLink]

If the bag was supposed to be tethered and it wasn't then it's not really her fault.

As for the glove problem. I'm aware of the pressurized balloon effect in some old astronaut gloves, but it's been about _40_ years right? You sure that it's been FOUR decades and the gloves are still crap?

Perhaps astronauts should use robotic hands with haptic feedback if they can't make decent gloves. One possible method - have the astronauts hands in "control" gloves safely the suit (thus no pressure problem), and the sensors in those gloves control the robotic hands that extend from the suit. Put some "tendons" on the control gloves and you can put the sensors/feedback motors somewhere more convenient.

And if they screw up and stick their "fingers" in the wrong place they don't necessarily lose their real fingers or pressurization.

Maybe I'm expecting too much, but sometimes it just seems as if NASA nowadays is just producing reruns. Just compare what they've done recent years with what was done in the 60s. Mission to Mars, space station, etc.

Build a space station with artificial gravity. Then build a fairly self-sustaining space station with artificial gravity. Then build one that can build something. Then build one that can build another space station without too much help from Earth - from raw materials obtained from asteroids.

If the technology level is such that a "space elevator" is practical, then that sounds like a worthwhile thing to build.

I don't really see the point of sending people to Mars or the Moon. Spend all that energy and mass to fight a planet's gravity, only to go back down into another gravity well AND have to come back up again, what a waste of time and money. Send disposable robots if you want.

Or send an unwanted politician or two. Hold elections/referendums for that if you want, or start a reality TV show - "Vote Them Off The Planet". That way sending humans to Mars/Moon (even just pretending/threatening to ;) ) might significantly benefit the world, instead of being a waste of resources.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Heh. Funny because they've made numerous orbits already and the toolbag is something like a few miles out ahead of them still... at that rate, air resistance will likely bring it down before it laps the station.

Re:I was just wondering

[sexconker]

You do realize the "investigations" are performed by the manufacturers of the aircraft, who are the people trying to sell them to their brass buddies in the military, don't you?

And you don't know much about military helicopters, do you?

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

given that the GP specified a 'rifle', I'd figure around 1 km/sec at most. 300X that is unlikely.

Like I said, you're unlikely to be able to hit the earth, but you would be able create a pretty elliptical orbit, one going fairly deep into the atmosphere. This will slow the projectile down, causing it to drop sooner. Earth orbits are around 8km/sec. So we're looking at around 12% of the orbital velocity being altered.

So, you'd eventually hit the earth, it'd just take a while ;)

Re:I was just wondering

[Firethorn]

And you don't know much about military helicopters, do you?

1: There's a reason I specified USAF and PLANE.
2: I'm willing to bet I know a lot more than you think.

Re:I was just wondering

[sam_paris]

I wasn't offended. My point was that the majority of space-walks are done tethered. And my point still stands.

Yes, I didn't need to type 99.99, but you must realize that when people use figures like this they are not performing a calculation to get there, they are using the figures to make a point. If the point is made clear by the figures (as mine was), then the actual accuracy of the figures is unimportant.

In addition, the untethered space-walks were mainly carried out some time ago (in the 80s) and while they were untethered, the astronaut had a jetpackesque unit, again ensuring that the astronaut wouldn't drift into space (my original point)

Re:I was just wondering

[Firehed]

What I'm more interested in is what causes the lost tool bag to be worth $100,000, as reported by the local news. Or, rather, what account the $99,000 worth of not tools is currently padding.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

True, vacuums don't conduct sound. Solids, however, do... e.g. your space suit.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Probably all the testing that they had to do to make sure the tools would hold up under space conditions. That and the certification the manufacturer had to get to assure NASA that their tools would consistently attain that grade... naturally the price will go up as soon as they get approved; very few tool manufacturers are approved and that creates a scarcity in supply – market economics, ya'know.

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

After thinking about that for a while, I'm pretty sure that the orbital variations caused by tidal forces would even out over time if not for the increased air resistance caused by the increased eccentricity. So it all boils down to air resistance in this case (no pun intended)...

Re:I was just wondering

[NeilTheStupidHead]

Good point, and given the large difference in mass, even a small delta v could create a large enough difference in period. Still, if you were *really* determined to get your bag back...

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

Yeah, in hindsight there's a really easy way to explain that.

Quit thinking about "orbits" and imagine things from the point of view of the ISS. Give the tool bag a slight push and off it goes – probably less than 1 metre/sec; I didn't watch the video, but I'd guess more like 1/2 m/sec (if that).

Now, forgetting that you're both orbiting, you'll see the tool bag moving away from you – let's be generous and say it's 1 m/sec. If you imagine that you're stationary, the tool bag has to go all the way 'round... a circumference of over 42,000 km. Moving at a rate of 1 m/sec, it'll take over 1 1/3 years... and it'll probably deorbit before then.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely an astronaut worth their salt can scream for longer than 30 seconds!

Re:I was just wondering

[fm6]

...carnivorous spacemonster attached to the hull of a spaceship...

{Citation Needed}

Re:I was just wondering

[Lershac]

not to mention having velcro maintain its good properties while in space... vacuum and wild temperature variations tend to make alot of materials behave strangely.

Re:I was just wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

It is OK mate. Space walk is a very unique thing and there must be lots of things overwhelming astronaut's mind to remember if the tool kit is attached! NASA can improve their system and introduce some strings as suggested by of the fellows here. It is a good space junk, may help aliens to undestand us in future.

Re:I was just wondering

[w0mprat]

"shouldn't she (in theory) just be able to wait the 90 or so minutes till the next orbit and grab it when the two orbits intersect?"

Very unlikely.

"if two objects in basically identical orbits exchange momentum, then their new orbits will intersect at the same place the original exchange took place."

Well the two orbits are only different by the momentum that the astronaut imparted, just a nudge. It will very slowly move away from the ISS before moving back in that general direction, yes, crudely put. Yes the two ellipses will kind-of intersect again, and it may be easier to retrieve. But it's not as simple as that.

1. Orbits drift, their never perfect.
2. Orbial mechanics mean an object pushed in front of the ISS would reach a higher Aphelion and lower Perihelion, and have a different orbital period, ever so slightly out of sync so what you say wouldn't work. If pushed perpendicular to the orbit the behaviour is different also. Either way changed mommentum means bag won't float back to where it was pushed out from.
3. Earths gravity is slightly lumpy which slightly perturbs orbits. The moons gravity has a little effect as well.
4. Even at that altitude there is a slight drag from earths atmosphere which will have a different effect on objects of different surface area and density.

I'm not expert, I far grasp orbital mechanics entirely, but there are probably more reasons why the bag wouldn't return to where it was nudged out from. Infact it'd be highly unlikley to encounter the ISS again at all.

Which is a good thing, because if that did happen happen to encounter the ISS again it could have significant delta of velocity and be quite a hazard.

Also, interestingly, I have heard NASA makes sure any object that potentially could be lost in space has a trackable radar signature, in case of situations like this.

Re:I was just wondering

[Fred_A]

There might be some concern about pulling off the velco and having it tear the suit.

I think they stopped making paper space suits quite some time ago specifically because of this.

Re:I was just wondering

[the_digitalmouse]

As I understand it from watching NASA TV, they *do* normally clip things to keep them from floating away if something gets bumped. But the astronaut was dealing with something leaking inside the larger toobag and forgot to make sure the smaller bag was clipped when she set it outside the bigger bag.

It's just a 'doh!'-moment and earth-bound people do far worse - like how many tools or office supplies have been missplaced over the years? I'm just happy the astronauts are not missplacing larger, more important things, like a station module.

Re:I was just wondering

[Trent Hawkins]

Why isn't the tools bag somehow linked to the suit? with a strap or something ...

nah, that'll look like a purse, and then the Russians will laugh at us.

Re:I was just wondering

[jazzduck]

You don't want a tether on a bag full of stuff in orbit because it can act in pretty unpredictable ways, flailing about and risking the life of the person that's holding the bag is the first consideration. Guys, this isn't changing the oil on your car. A stray object can damage any one of the many couplings on the suit and rendering that suit inoperable very quickly.

What kind of cheap materials is NASA using for these suits? If a medium-speed collision with a wrench is able to damage "any one of the many couplings on the suit," if a simple impact with the tools these people use to do their job "renders the suit inoperable," then seriously... that sounds like incredibly poor design to me.

I know that meteoroids and other spaceborne debris pose a real threat, but that's because they're moving at a very high velocity relative to the shuttle and crew. The tools wouldn't be.

Remember those old screw-on multi-pin electrical connectors from the 70's? Or have you ever worked in a tool shop that used those compressed-air hose-to-tool connections? Chuck a wrench at any of those at high speed and you might leave a scrape, but the connector would still work. Why is NASA building suits that are so easy to damage?

Re:I was just wondering

[History's Coming To]

....which in the story is explained as "the thing is plummeting towards Jupiter!!!" as opposed to the truth: "the thing will be around here someplace, and will be pretty darn close once an orbit for the forseable future"

Thank you Clone53421, summed up technically with far more eloquence than I can usually muster on an inter-web-space. :)

Re:I was just wondering

[clone53421]

"the thing will be around here someplace, and will be pretty darn close once an orbit for the forseable future"

Actually, looking at it from the point of view of the spacecraft, the pod is moving away at a rather low rate of speed. That low rate of speed will have to take the pod the entire circumference of its orbit in order to return it to the spacecraft.

For example, the toolbag: I read somewhere that it was 1-2 miles ahead of the ISS after about a day (I don't recall the exact numbers but that's the general idea anyway). It takes less than 100 minutes for the ISS to complete an orbit, but the very small difference in their velocities means it'll take a long time for the toolbag to "lap" the ISS.

Laurel & Hardy?

[eldavojohn]

As she was cleaning the bag and wiping the tools and equipment inside, the bag floated away. Another bag carrying identical equipment is now being shared by Piper and Bowen.

Do we have any humorous black & white silent space footage of this skit?

Seriously, NASA's gotta come up with financing somehow ... add some hokey 1920's ragtime music to the it, speed it up just unnaturally fast and they just might be sitting on a viral video here!

Come on, it practically writes itself:

Setting: Exterior of shuttle.
A lanky beanpole Bowen discovers that grease has been dispensed into her bag. Not wanting to alert the portly Bowen and face his wrath, she quickly empties the contents of the bag to wipe them off. As she cleans each tool, she sets it back down on the shuttle but soon realizes that they merely float back up. She rotates through each tool, setting it back on the shuttle but forgets about the bag! Bowen hears the heavy breathing in his earpiece and turns around in time to see the bag floating away while Piper is pre-occupied with the tools. He scowls and makes a move for the bag but slips on grease and tumbles out into space, tethered only by his life support ...

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[qoncept]

You forgot the part where she jumps up to grab the bag. We've struck gold with this one!

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[Mushdot]

Footage is here :)

Im assuming the astronauts are tethered to the shuttle or you must have some will power to stop the urge to lunge too hard and end up floating off yourself?

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[WWWWolf]

Seriously, NASA's gotta come up with financing somehow ... add some hokey 1920's ragtime music to the it, speed it up just unnaturally fast and they just might be sitting on a viral video here!

Yeah, I've been wondering why they don't do "NASA Presents: Space Comedy". I mean, they have plenty of hilarious material already...

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[savuporo]

Um this footage ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flZRps0pBEo


Or, er, ragtime music ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[davolfman]

That helmet-cam footage is positively agoraphobia inducing.

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[dietdew7]

Fear of sweaters or crowds?

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[argiedot]

Skip to around 4:45 to get to the action. Thanks for the link :)

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot: Bowden turns to the camera, waggles his eyebrow and rolls his eyes at Piper's ridiculous antics.

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[davolfman]

Fear of open spaces.

Re:Laurel & Hardy?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a little go at doing your suggestion. I would have added a spider walking across the camera but as you can see from the vid im not that good at video stuff!

color me unsurprised

[Anonymous Coward]

that's why I don't trust my bag to any woman

Re:color me unsurprised

[Daetrin]

"that's why I don't trust my bag to any woman"

Not even when it's coated with lube?

Re:color me unsurprised

[msu320]

that's why I don't trust my bag to any other woman

fixed it for ya.

Re:color me unsurprised

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no unfunny rating and if I rate you overrated, I will get metamoderated into oblivion. So I will just tell you. You, sir, suck at life.

Re:color me unsurprised

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, really. What's a woman doing in space? She should be at home ironing a man's shirt.

Re:color me unsurprised

[GodfatherofSoul]

So, you're saying that's a MAN'S job?

Re:color me unsurprised

[Strep]

Maybe if the bag were branded gucci or coach, she would have been a bit more careful?

And THIS is why

[falcon5768]

The Enterprise was built on the ground folks. If highly trained astronauts cant hold onto their tools, you think a bunch of steel workers can?

Re:And THIS is why

[pavon]

Yes, I would definitely trust your average steel worker to take better care of his tools than your average geek or jet pilot.

Re:And THIS is why

[falcon5768]

you have not been around a lot of construction workers then.

Re:And THIS is why

[Tisha_AH]

Pieces, parts and tools have been lost on a very large number of space missions since humanity first went into space. In zero G, if an object has the slightest amount of velocity and it is let go, it quickly is beyond your reach and irrecoverable.

Of course it goes without mention that men lost all of the previous items (including a spatula used to apply a test filler material for the shuttle tiles).

The misogyny of most of the posters to this article helps illustrate an earlier /. article on why fewer women are entering the computer sciences fields in university. Many ego-centric professionals (I use that term loosely) in the IT field still can see no use for a woman in their profession, unless we are staffing a help desk.

EVA missions during space travel are the most challenging and difficult activities of anything that NASA does. "Tim the Toolman" does not have a caddy of accessories to keep his stuff in place. Imagine how difficult it is to be standing on the end of a boom, attached to the shuttle. You have no visual frame of reference, the balance mechanisms in your ears are telling you one thing, your training is telling you something else. Now try to overhaul a bad rotary joint on one of the solar panels.

Ignorance is clearly bliss to several of the posters to this article.

Re:And THIS is why

[Jeff Hornby]

Ummm... I don't know how to tell you this but...

You do know that the Enterprise was never actually built, don't you? All of that footage was either a 6 inch model or some cheesy computer graphics?

Re:And THIS is why

[Electrawn]

Of course the Enterprise was built on the ground....hell it hasn't even left for orbit!

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/resources/orbiters/enterprise.html

Re:And THIS is why

[Mononoke]

Ignorance is clearly bliss to several of the posters to this article.

Or perhaps they haven't endured the required sense-of-humor-ectomy yet. (No, it doesn't involve estrogen supplements.)

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

Many ego-centric professionals (I use that term loosely) in the IT field still can see no use for a woman in their profession, unless we are staffing a help desk.

Hey! That's not true. Executive Assistant comes to mind.

"Tim the Toolman" does not have a caddy of accessories to keep his stuff in place

He wears a toolbelt, which is attached to his waist...

Re:And THIS is why

[d3ac0n]

True.

BUT, both the model AND the computer graphics were built on Earth, on the ground (or a table). So technically, he/she isn't wrong.

However, I've often thought that once mankind DOES begin building interplanetary space vehicles, we should probably do it on the ground, in specially designed hangars. At least for ships up to a certain size. Obviously, once you reach a certain size level, the ship just becomes too massive to support it's own weight while sitting on the ground. Alternately, due to design restrictions it could be the wrong SHAPE to properly sit on the ground, or is just too damn big to escape Earth's gravity well if launched from the ground. Then having space stations with large construction bays will probably be wise.

But somehow I think that's not something we will have to worry about in our lifetimes. More's the pity.

Re:And THIS is why

[SleptThroughClass]

You do know that the Enterprise was never actually built, don't you? All of that footage was either a 6 inch model or some cheesy computer graphics?

Actually, it was built 11 feet long and the special effects did not involve computers.

Re:And THIS is why

[Chris Burke]

You do know that the Enterprise was never actually built, don't you? All of that footage was either a 6 inch model or some cheesy computer graphics?

And then what, they used a replicator or something to scale the model up to full size once they got it into space? That would make sense; even in the future it wouldn't make sense to lift something the size of the Enterprise into space if you didn't have to.

Glad you cleared that up!

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know the GP is referring to the fan controversy over the new ST movie depicting the Enterprise being built on Earth rather than in orbit. Don't you? No, I guess you probably don't.

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll let you in on a little something, sweety. When guys are on the job, they constantly roast each other to relieve stress. Do something stupid, say something dumb, and you are ribbed about it incessantly, especially if you are the new guy/girl. Look at it as an initiation.

Don't try to tell me girls don't do it, because I know plenty of cheerleaders, band members, soccer players and field hockey players who all had to deal with crap as a freshman/rookie. You either grow a thick skin and start hurling back, or you become an alienated target because you think people are picking on you specifically. How can people joke around with someone who is not willing to take the heat and laugh at themselves?

Something tells me you never got the joke. And I posted anonymously because this post will probably be modded into oblivion by all the male IT workers with mod points today who are flocking to your defense because you are a girl.

Re:And THIS is why

[BobNET]

And then what, they used a replicator or something to scale the model up to full size once they got it into space?

Makes sense to me. Why build a dozen or so ships in space when you can build one big giant orbiting replicator and use the model to program it with the specifications for a Constitution-class ship? That way you can produce as many as you have energy for with the press of a button.

Re:And THIS is why

[IchNiSan]

I am sure that some of the steel workers building the Enterprise lost their tools!

Re:And THIS is why

[chrysrobyn]

The Enterprise was built on the ground folks.

The Enterprise may have been, but Columbia wasn't. We got to see her in the orbital shipyards.

Re:And THIS is why

[ptbarnett]

All of that footage was either a 6 inch model or some cheesy computer graphics?

The original Enterprise model specifications:

Length, overall: 3.3 m (11 ft)
Diameter, saucer: 152 cm (60 in)
Length, engine pods: 185 cm (72.25 in)
Length, secondary hull: 135 cm (53.5 in)
Height: 80 cm (32 in)
Weight: 90 kg (200 lb)

It is currently on display in the gift shop at the National Air & Space Museum in Washington, DC:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/visit/concessions/shops/enterprise.cfm

Re:And THIS is why

[shaitand]

A $50 tool paid for by the worker means a hell of a lot more to a worker who nets less than $20k/year than to someone who nets a high six figure salary. A $1 screwdriver not so much.

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot believe you people modded up this clear display of inverse sexism. She's not going to date you because you spent mod points on her.

Re:And THIS is why

[geekoid]

Joke does not equal misogyny.
Considering the fact that most images of men are negative, I don't think it's abusive to ahve such a joke.

A joke most women I know would find funny.

Yes, I know the jokes, but in fact I know many women, and have 'known' many women before I was warried.

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, no sensible people allowed!

Re:And THIS is why

[tonfagun]

I don't really see any obvious misogyny in the comments above yours (perhaps I've set my display threshold too high)

Then again, maybe the problem is not misogyny after all. If the astronaut would have been male, I'm pretty sure the comments on here would have been just as nasty (modulo the "grease in the toolbag, har har" stuff). But since the astronaut is female, ridiculing her seems to be equivalent to collectively ridiculing every single girl in science/engineering/basically everything outside the field of traditional jobs for women.

I would seriously hope that taking the piss out of a guy or a girl doesn't make a difference anymore.

Re:And THIS is why

[TooMuchToDo]

As someone who is certified to work on steel (MIG/TIG welding), an average geek, and can pilot a jet (ATP certificate FTW!), I take offense to your comment =) I lie, I would drop my tools in space just as often as on the ground, unless they were welded to me.

/goes off to dream about robotic arm replacement, with modular tools, mmmmmmm

Re:And THIS is why

[TooMuchToDo]

Scientific American does a show with Alan Alda, although I forget the name of it. One they had on recently was about robots being developed, one being a robot with a human body that would attach itself to the IIS, and could move around the station on a robotic arm. It'd be nice if that was already up there, so if you lost a part, the robot would see it floating away from you, magnetically grab it, and bring it back to you (having it transmit "you lost this" as it hands it back to you would be icing on said cake).

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

Try reading all the posts in this thread:

http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1034767&cid=25816967

I don't think a man would get a comment such as "What's a man doing in space? He should be at home mowing the lawn."

Re:And THIS is why

[Jeff Hornby]

And I hope that you enjoy your trip to see it if you can ever find your way out of your parents' basement.

Re:And THIS is why

[Eil]

The Enterprise was built on the ground folks.

Actually, the NCC-1701-D was built at Utopia Planitia, the Starfleet shipyard orbiting Mars.

I'll forgive the slip-up this time.

Re:And THIS is why

[Anonymous Coward]

I really haven't seen any misogyny in any of these posts. Too sensitive. The only humerous person mentioned was by you, ie Tim the toolman, a constantly bumbling white male. If someone made a tv show that had a minority woman in that role, it would be insensitive. White males can laugh at themselves, week after week, one of the most popular shows on tv. Loosen up and laugh.

Re:And THIS is why

[ptbarnett]

And I hope that you enjoy your trip to see it if you can ever find your way out of your parents' basement.

Sorry, but my house doesn't even have a basement.

All snarky comments aside, I've been to the NASM at least a half-dozen times. I've been working in the DC area for quite a bit this year, and stayed over several weekends. I'll spend a few hours at the NASM, and then go someplace else on the Mall.

The Enterprise model is on the lower level of the gift shop. I didn't even see it until my 3rd or 4th trip, after I went into the gift shop to buy a birthday gift.

The model of the spaceship in Close Encounters of the Third Kind is also on display in the NASM Annex at the Dulles airport, within a stone's throw of the Enterprise "test" shuttle (that never went into orbit). The model builders put a few joke items on it (like a tiny R2D2), which aren't visible in the movie.

Re:And THIS is why

[DustyShadow]

Construction workers make a lot more than you might think. For example, a friend of mine got paid $20/hr during college in Chicago to set up cones on the highway at night.

Re:And THIS is why

[syousef]

The misogyny of most of the posters to this article

Way to go there with the man bashing. Yours is the first post I read that brought gender into it.

helps illustrate an earlier /. article on why fewer women are entering the computer sciences fields in university

Yeah that's gotta be it. Because ALL women are so easily deterred from doing what they want to. YOU are the one being sexist.

I bet you go around calling yourself a feminist too. The very term is sexist, but hypocrisy seems to run rife there. If you want equality, don't be so quick to lay into the opposite sex. If you want to dominate, and blame men for what you choose to do with your life, be honest about it.

n/t

[KasperMeerts]

Sometimes an astronaut loses some tools: big news!
Seriously, if there is no mechanism to keep the bags safe, like with magnets, this is only to be expected. With all the other crap in space, nobody is going to mind.

Re:n/t

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like I recall an Arthur C. Clarke short story about a space station orbiting Jupiter. One of the occupants has done something reprehensible and the others take him outside [in space suits] and give him a shove toward Jupiter.

Clarke's "rest of the story" asserted that the victim would not fall all the way to Jupiter, but would instead return to the drop/shove off point, right next to the space station, after one orbit.

If orbital mechanics work as Clarke claimed, wouldn't it be possible to retrieve the tools after one orbit?

Or, perhaps not.

Re:n/t

[IceCreamGuy]

identical equipment is now being shared by Piper and Bowen

Bowen... more like... Dave Bowman! Tool... more like... Frank Pool! They'll be found again in the year 3001 by an asteroid miner and be used to give TMA-2 a virus to become the worst series finisher in history!

Re:n/t

[clone53421]

If the orbit didn't intersect the planet and had the same period, yeah.

Re:n/t

[SleptThroughClass]

If the bag was pushed exactly toward or away from Earth, it would be back in one orbit. But it was pushed in a random direction. A sideways push makes it keep going away from the station; the orbits might later intersect after the bag's sideways travel takes it around the world. It would have to get a very strong horizontal push to go around the world in a short enough period for the astronauts to be willing to wait for it. And if the sideways push wasn't exactly horizontal, when the bag came back from the other side it might be too high or too low.

Re:n/t

[zippthorne]

Correct, as long as the delta-v is purely radial. If there're any non-radial components, you can get plane-changes or change the period, so it'll still come to the "same" point in 3-space but the shuttle won't be there on any following orbit.

Also, that fails to account or atmospheric drag and OMS burns.

Re:n/t

[clone53421]

No, it all hinges on the period of the orbit. If it's orbiting quicker or slower, your orbits will cross but you'll be there at different times.

Pushing it sideways has the same problem as vertically: if it's not orbiting at exactly the same speed, the orbital period will be different.

Re:n/t

[clone53421]

but the shuttle won't be there on any following orbit.

Well... technically it will... if you wait long enough. If we're talking a 30-second difference in a period that's measured in hours or days, you'll be waiting a long time. Especially if the period isn't evenly divisible by the difference.

Re:n/t

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnets generally need some sort of ferrous material to work. I would suspect that aluminum would be the material of choice on nearly all the space tools.

Re:n/t

[KasperMeerts]

A magnet on a string?

D'oh!

[conureman]

I hate when I do that.

Re:D'oh!

[SleptThroughClass]

In space no one can hear you swear.

If you're trained to turn off your microphone first.

damn it whats wrong with me

[ionix5891]

"guns had released grease into her toolbag ..."

Re:damn it whats wrong with me

[carn1fex]

same here, i read "Astronaut Loses Stools While Performing an EVA" and shuddered.

Typical woman

[Viol8]

More interested in cleaning stuff than getting on with the job! :o)

Re:Typical woman

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, cleaning stuff *is* her job... /ducks

Advertisment

[L4t3r4lu5]

"New, from the company that brought you Soap-On-A-Rope, we are proud to present our latest product line for extra-terrestrial encounters of the maintenance kind...
- Hammer-On-A-Rope!
- Screwdriver-On-A-Rope!
- Chisel-On-A-Rope!
- Rope-On-A-Rope!"

Re:Advertisment

[clone53421]

- Rope-On-A-Rope!

That's funny, actually, because there apparently were some tethers in the toolbag.

Re:Advertisment

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a good reason for commercializing space. "Coming soon to the ISS: The Home Depot Module."

Re:Advertisment

[snspdaarf]

I first read that as "Hamster-On-A-Rope". A very WTF moment.

Re:Advertisment

[fxkr]

1. Scissors-On-A-Rope
2. ??
3. Scissors      Rope

Re:Advertisment

[Anonymous Coward]

Snip.

Re:Advertisment

[dorque_wrench]

"New, from the company that brought you Soap-On-A-Rope, we are proud to present our latest product line for extra-terrestrial encounters of the maintenance kind... - Hammer-On-A-Rope! - Screwdriver-On-A-Rope! - Chisel-On-A-Rope! - Rope-On-A-Rope!"

This technology was invented by Shampoo.

Re:Advertisment

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet the R&D took a long time on these items....The US Government would pay...

-Hammer-On-A-Rope........$128,512.00
-Screwdriver-On-A-Rope...$88,378.00
-Chisel-On-A-Robe........$72,008.00
-Rope-On-A-Rope.........**Priceless**

Damn if you could get the DOD to buy a few per vehicle your set for life!

I have dibs on the:
  -Phillips Screwdriver-On-A-Rope.....90,012.

And the:
-Astronaut-On-A-Rope. ... kinda the same thing isn't it?

Footage of the incident

[rawagajah]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7736996.stm

Re:Footage of the incident

[Media Tracker]

Longer version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flZRps0pBEo

Re:Footage of the incident

[X0563511]

Wow, those suit gloves are more flexible than you would think.

Re:Footage of the incident

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting, thanks. That toolbox is practically laughing at her as it slooooowly floats away like an inch out of reach.

Zero gravity always sounds fun, but watching people try to work in it, it just seems intensely frustrating. Though it is probably a lot less stressful when you're not trying to keep yourself from falling into the infinite abyss of space.

Luckily?

[holophrastic]

Luckily they have a spare? Umm guys, not luck, planning. Not an accident, not for the grace of a god, simply a good thing. Give credit where credit is due: someone planned well.

Re:Luckily?

[Eravau]

Too bad someone else didn't execute as well as the initial someone planned.

Re:Luckily?

[jbeaupre]

Ultimately it was luck. Cargo space is at a premium, so spares are determined by a game of chance. It's ironic that the extra toilet being sent up was determined by a game of craps.

Solution

[clickety6]

She shoulda had one of these:

http://www.shoptoit.ca/ss/dashindeals/en/dd_hd_belt.jpg

Re:Solution

[JayAitch]

Guess what my girlfriend is getting for Christmas. Chicks in toolbelts nice.

Why did it have to be a woman...

[mdm-adph]

Women already have it hard enough trying to "keep up with the boys." Jeebus. The 20 or so comments already on here are more than enough.

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it wouldn't happen to a guy. :P

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[aardwolf64]

Just wait until she loses the second one. :-)

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[SlashBugs]

The 20 or so comments already on here are more than enough.

Yeah. I actually have mod points today, but I can't find the option for "-1, pathetic bigotry".

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[Shakrai]

Yeah. I actually have mod points today, but I can't find the option for "-1, pathetic bigotry".

Sexism != bigotry

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[NekSnappa]

And then some idiot went and modded you a troll. Go Figure.

Re:Why did it have to be a woman...

[mdm-adph]

Sigh -- doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

If life had taught her anything...

[YrWrstNtmr]

Never go back for your bag.

Re:If life had taught her anything...

[Robmonster]

RIP Douglas Adams.

The Grease

[will_die]

For those interested here is some technical information on the grease.

I couldn't hack it myself

[jollyreaper]

My every move filmed for scrutiny, any fuckup to be beamed around the world before I even realized what happened.

Do you realize how much hazing's going to come along with this incident? I hope she can take it in good humor.

Re:I couldn't hack it myself

[Tim Doran]

Plus, she's coming home to find her paycheck docked for the next 3 years to pay for the lost tools. Ouch!

they aren't lost...

[the4thdimension]

they landed in my pool! I got them right here. Why are they covered in grease?

An honest, mistake, but...

[blcamp]

Not only was this expensive and preventable (erm, *tether*, anyone?)...
...the ramifications could be huge.

Which satellite is going to take the hit for this? Which future orbital mission?
Or... will the ISS itself get smacked, later on?

Re:An honest, mistake, but...

[MozeeToby]

The airforce has a philosophy that they follow with their stealth jets. Yeah, you could still throw enough bullets into the sky to take one down, but it's an awefully big sky. Now take that up another hundred miles or so and you end up with an absolutely huge sky. So far to date, even with the massive amount of derelict and broken down satellites in orbit, there has been exactly one verified impact event.

This is hardly the first time tools have been dropped, and it won't be the last.

Re:An honest, mistake, but...

[geekoid]

Yuo should watch the footage, it makes more sense.
Clearly an error, but you can understand why there wasn't a tether.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flZRps0pBEo

4:53 is when the event happens.

Basically she was going through a larger bag and this one kinda 'slipped out'.

I find it hard to call it anything more then a simple accident.

Re:An honest, mistake, but...

[Titoxd]

Neither. A satellite might be hit by the bag, if it happens to be unlucky enough to be in its path in the next month or so. After that, atmospheric drag will slow the tool bag enough for it to start re-entry. That's the reason the ISS has to be continuously boosted to a new altitude after every resupply mission.

As for the ISS: the tool bag right now has a different orbital velocity than the ISS / Shuttle compound (otherwise it wouldn't have drifted away), so its orbital elements change. As a result, the bag will be in an orbit with a) a different perigee altitude (so there's a different amount of atmospheric drag acting on the bag), and more importantly, b) a different period of revolution around the Earth thanks to Kepler's third law. While the bag and the ISS do share a common point on their orbits (at least until drag takes a toll), the time it takes them to reach that same point is slightly different.

Oops.

[Theoboley]

That would've been one expensive Oops.

Figure it costs how many millions to get them up into space, just to bring them another tool belt + grease gun...

Don't give her a second one...

[aardwolf64]

Sorry... you drop the first one, you lose the right to use one. Can they not just tether it to her? Like a little kid and his mittens?

its a well known - Ladies and handbags

[kubitus]

Ladies tend to spill either the contents or drop their handbags.

Maybe it was snatched by a alien?

Well they knew a woman was coming along after all

[Anonymous Coward]

And if it's one thing women can do, it's lose things, or put things where no one can find them again.

More importantly

[WindBourne]

why is there not a small sat. that can be deployed around there to help them? Seriously, it should not be that difficult to come up with small sats that work out there, comm link to the ISS, has several small cameras, and perhaps a small hand. The most difficult part would be propulsion. Everybody wants to give it compressed gas. But it might be better to consider alternatives. This would be a useful item for selling to Bigelow. If I were one of the small space prize companies, I might consider doing this.

What about the EVA retriever robot?

[Robotbeat]

NASA had a robot in development JUST FOR THIS SORT OF THING. In the early 1990s/late 1980s they were working on an autonomous robot that responds to voice commands that would fly around in space near a space station to retrieve tools or astronauts and such. It would be released and lock on to the tool or whatever and fly to it and fly back to the station. I have a picture of it in a kids book about robots, but I can't find one online.

Here's a fact sheet on the project:

http://cd.textfiles.com/spaceandast/TEXT/STATION/STF_EVA.TXT

EVA RETRIEVER FACT SHEET

Johnson Space Center (JSC)

March 25, 1988

          The EVA Retriever concept is an autonomous free flying robot
for retrieving equipment or a spacewalking astronaut drifting in
separated flight near the Space Station. The device combines the
proven manned maneuvering unit (MMU) with a robot latched in
where an astronaut normally would be. The MMU was flown eight
times from the Space Shuttle's cargo bay in test flights and for
satellite repair spacewalks.

          Responding to voice commands from the Space Station crew,
the EVA Retriever would activate and check itself out, search for
and lock onto the "target," thrust toward, rendezvous with and
grapple the target -- automatically avoiding any obstacles en
route such as Space Station structures. After grappling the
target, the EVA Retriever would search for the Space Station and
finding it, return home.

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[Anonymous Coward]

robot that responds to voice commands

The program was scrapped when a young child pointed out that in the absence of atmosphere, the robot would be unable to hear the sound of voice commands, thus saving NASA millions of dollars and considerable embarrassment...

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[sumiciu]

Ask Wall-E...

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[clone53421]

Space, where nobody can hear you say "Oh shit!" ... except for that radio. Shit...

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[Rich0]

Knowing how well voice recognition actually works, I can see this robot giving chase to an astronaut desperately trying to evade being "grappled" shouting commands to halt as the helpful robot reaches out for the air hose.

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[Anonymous Coward]

see it sounded like a good feasable and possible to finish under budget.

Thats why it would not be built it would make every other bit of NASA look bad.

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[MartinSchou]

Well, yes ... it worked perfectly. Until someone turned if off and put it on a table while pulling out the tools to fix it. Then it sort of just drifted away in space.

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[Lost Race]

No problem, just send the EVA retriever robot retriever after it.

Re:What about the EVA retriever robot?

[ShooterNeo]

1 second explanation why this was never a feasible idea :

    The cost of stuff on the International Space Station is the cost of the flights to put the items in orbit. As in, about $10,000 per pound. The cost to manufacture even pricey tools or satellites is nothing compared to launch costs, usually.

So the robot would have massed more than the stuff it retrieved.

Even, assuming, they solved the control problems...

Never happens to me..

[rickb928]

I might lose a gum wrapper in the blade server chassis now and then..

No, wait, that was the telecom tech who, being in charge of the machine room, dictated that we have no food or beverages in the room. His gum fetish was the exception, and the shard of gum foil wrapper in the Cubix box just a minor inconvenience for 500+ users.

But hey, it wasn't me! I just tripped over the T-1 cable he thoughtfully left out for me, after I had dressed them into *his* cable tray without permission.

But I'm not bitter.

Like the astronaut who's wondering who untied her tool bag... Hell hath no fury...

Magnets. I bet half the ISS is non-ferrous.

man

[dvh.tosomja]

That video is awesome!

Could have been worse..

[mweather]

Thank god they didn't loose it while performing "The Merchant of Venice"

Re:Could have been worse..

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't get it

Re:Could have been worse..

[mweather]

It made sense before the editors added an to the headline.

And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Idaho]

What's an EVA?

Come on editors, using undefined acronyms in the body of an article is bad enough writing as it is, but using them in headlines is a new low (even for Slashdot).

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Robotbeat]

EVA means "Extra-Vehicular Activity" or, colloquially, space-walking.

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess maybe they figured that they didn't need one for Extra-Vehicular Activity.

Shall we say things like:
"... using a laser (Light Amplification through Stimulated Emission of Radiation)" as well?

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're really that stupid, why not just look it up?

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[smurphmeister]

What does "look it up" mean? I've been staring at my ceiling for 30 minutes and I don't see the answer. Can you help me?

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a giant robot, built to protect the world from Angels. :-)

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[HiVizDiver]

Extra-Vehicular (as in, outside the vehicle) Activity

Re:And in today's episode of "guess the acronym"

[Anonymous Coward]

which 95% of slashdotters knew anyway.

Wow

[IceCreamGuy]

I think this might be the most sexist slashdot discussion I've ever seen.

Re:Wow

[X0563511]

Seriously! What the fuck is wrong with you all?

Re:Wow

[hcdejong]

You must be new here.

Re:Wow

[nacturation]

I think this might be the most sexist slashdot discussion I've ever seen.

What's really sad is that some moderator chose to mod you funny. Imagine if someone wrote "Wow, I think that country has the highest rate of genocide I've ever seen" and then got modded to +5, Funny.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boy, this just has to be done...

Was it her Gucci bag or her Dolce & Gabana bag that she was fumbling around with?
Are we sure she didn't spill makeup in her bag rather than "lube?"
A blond moment - on a space walk!?!?
I hope they don't let her drive home.
A woman on a space walk? So I guess they have a dishwasher on the ISS, if she has time to go for a walk.
Women: can't live with 'em, can't depressurize the cargo bay when they aren't looking and jettison them into orbit without a vehicle or sufficient life support system.
"This is mission control. You have been relegated to laundry duty for the remainder of the mission, honey."

Sorry!

Re:Wow

[againjj]

And you got modded funny too, despite your seriousness. Wake up moderators! What next, this is funny?

Sleep time

[edgr]

The crew is due to go to sleep tonight at 11:55 p.m. CST and will wake up at 7:55 a.m. tomorrow.

Man, that's a pretty damn regimented sleep time. I guess there's no quickly checking /. before bed.

Re:Sleep time

[Hanners1979]

It's not so bad once someone "loses" the alarm clock in space.

Re:Sleep time

[Chris Burke]

Man, that's a pretty damn regimented sleep time. I guess there's no quickly checking /. before bed.

According to the expanded flight plan, checking /. is scheduled for 11:47 to 11:55.

Shit happens ...

[seyyah]

but hopefully it wasn't "luck" that made them have a spare bag.

Wait a second...

[Shaltenn]

OK I understand that the grease gun went off in the bag and covered the tools with goo and what not.

But... why not go inside before attempting to clean the stupid things off? I mean, the tools are still usable, if a little gunked up...

Kudos to NASA for having two sets of tools, one for each astronaut. ... Wait... You say they only have those two sets? No backups? ... ... -_-

Re:Wait a second...

[Lord Bitman]

because so much better than having greasy tools is having greasy inside of a space station and air

Re:Wait a second...

[The MAZZTer]

It's dangerous to have liquids floating about inside the space shuttle, which could happen easily when trying to clean inside. I forget exactly why but it probably has to do with microscopic bubbles of the liquid being easily inhaled or swallowed accidentally...

Re:Wait a second...

[DerekLyons]

OK I understand that the grease gun went off in the bag and covered the tools with goo and what not. But... why not go inside before attempting to clean the stupid things off? I mean, the tools are still usable, if a little gunked up...

Because it takes several hours to reset after a spacewalk, and many hours more to prepare for another. Coming inside means losing all that time. In addition, starting or ending a spacewalk means connecting or disconnecting all those connectors as well as performing maintenance on suit components - which increases the risks of fucking something up.

Re:Wait a second...

[xsadar]

Kudos to NASA for having two sets of tools, one for each astronaut. ... Wait... You say they only have those two sets? No backups? ...

The article implies that they had two bags on the spacewalk. No saying how many more tools they had inside the space station. Never trust the summary alone.

Re:Wait a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes about 20 minutes to traverse from the end of the truss where she was when this happened and into the airlock. That would be only partial containment for the tools, unless she took an extra 10 minutes to close and then open the hatch, then another 20 minutes to traverse back out to the solar array rotary joint she was working on. That's almost 20% of their allotted work time wasted just to gain shelter for a tool bag that was theoretically tethered to her work box anyways. The root mistake was apparently somebody missed a tether.

She didn't lose her entire kit. Just one piece of sub-kit containing the grease gun, a couple of wipes, scrapers, and a trash bag for the used wipes. I believe she had duplicates of everything except the grease gun and scrapers elsewhere in her kit, and Bowen had a spare of the grease gun for exactly that sort of contingency. His was the backup. It was only there for use if something happened to Piper's or if he finished his tasks quickly enough to help Piper with hers.

Not targeting you specifically, as you asked a fair question (albeit one that was asked and answered a dozen times above), but this particular article has spawned some of the poorest quality discussion I've ever seen on slashdot. Reading a few of the mainstream news articles on the topic and the summary, it's easy to see why, however. The summary makes no mention that yesterday's EVA accomplished all of its goals, and the lost bag was about 10 minutes of minor excitement worth out of 6 hours and 52 minutes of work.

Uhm ... what?

[Errtu76]

"lubrication guns had released grease into her toolbag"

Am i really the only one who thought of porn when reading this? I hope not.

Re:Uhm ... what?

[X0563511]

Yep, just you.

Re:Uhm ... what?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but you beat me to it.

Re:Uhm ... what?

[Anonymous Coward]

if you looked up a bit, you would notice you aren't unique.

there is footage

[circletimessquare]

i saw it on nbc this morning

its a top down point of view of the astronaut. she sets the toolbag to the side and addresses some other piece of equipment in front of her, and the bag slowly drifts down, in camera view

by the time she turns her attention back to it, you can see the shock in her hand gestures trying to grab it, now below her waist. i guess space suits don't provide bend

Time to hire space debris collectors

[Carlosos]

Maybe some other people also haven seen the anime "Planetes" that is about space debris collectors because too much stuff was lost in space that it was dangerous with all the stuff flying around.
Lets say it starts with a screw flying at high speed at a space ship that went "boom".

It might really become a problem in the future.

Re:Time to hire space debris collectors

[mad_robot]

We could get the Chinese to blow it up.

Re:Time to hire space debris collectors

[DerekLyons]

The ISS is low enough that any item(s) 'lost/dropped' from it will be slowed by atmospheric friction and reenter.

Should've seen it coming

[Godji]

That's exactly what happens when astronauts don't get to see "BURN-E" before going on a mission!

You tools

[Wowsers]

Was it a commemorative tool release for the ISS's 10th year in space?

Porn?

[Hoi Polloi]

lubrication guns had released grease into her toolbag. As she was cleaning the bag and wiping the tools and equipment inside

This is the most obscene thing I've ever read here.

Re:Porn?

[Shakrai]

This is the most obscene thing I've ever read here.

Then I'm guessing you haven't been here very long ;)

To paraphrase: You must be new here ;)

I was thinking more Benny Hill

[fiordhraoi]

Here's your soundtrack!

Re:That's why women don't belong in space

[clone53421]

God? Is that really you?

This...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why we can't have nice things!

OH jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick

[Anonymous Coward]

I would expect the newspapers to have this sort of childish ignorant reporting, but I would expect SLASHDOT to have at least some inkling of the technical difficulty of this EVA and all the things they did, and to expect that it was while she was dealing with a grease gun that had exploded everywhere.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised the Slashdot editors are fucking morons too.

Re:Women let out of kitchen, things go wrong..

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a virgin, aren't you?

It didn't float off forever.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait. It'll float right back in one orbital period, right?

Re:It didn't float off forever.

[sponglish]

No, the slight gravitational pull of the ISS may bring it back eventually, but the bag is in about the same orbit as the ISS so it'll be orbiting at about the same speed, keeping pace with the station.

In related news...

[elrous0]

NASA just added $750 million to the rapidly growing U.S. national debt to send up a repair mission for a purposeless low-orbit space station that we never needed and can't afford.

Now go ahead, mod me down, tell me about how space is our future, repeat some urban legends about NASA developing velcro, tell me how relatively small NASA's budget is, etc. It still won't change the facts that the U.S. government is headed at an increasingly rapid pace towards bankruptcy, each shuttle mission runs around $650-$750 million, the ISS has served little practical prupose, and that a very expensive low-orbit vehicle like the shuttle also serves little real purpose anymore, except to serve the aforementioned ISS.

The shuttle and the ISS are money-sinks. I'm sorry, but for a long tiem the U.S. government has been spending like a teenager with dad's credit card. If we're going to have any chance of getting the deficit under control before the dollar becomes worthless and we become a debtor nation, we have to stop deluding ourselves on these old science fiction dreams that just aren't practical in the real world that we live in. It's down to what we REALLY NEED at this point, not what we WANT.

Re:In related news...

[sponglish]

I heard complaints like yours back during the Apollo program: Why spend so much money on space exploration when there's so much poverty in the US? So we stopped going to the Moon and spent all that money on social programs, which is why there are no more poor people in America.

The only problem with space exploration is that it's run by a government agency. If it was privately run, every time a shuttle lifted off, they'd have also orbited the fuel tanks rather than allow them to drop back to Earth. We'd have been able to connect them for a ready-made space station, instead of the ridiculous tinker toy ISS we've been assembling for a decade. Oh well, NASA's days are numbered, commercial space travel is almost on us, assuming short-sighted people don't kill mankind's future out of a misplaced sense of economy.

Re:In related news...

[Laglorden]

Maybe we NEED to survive. The only way to do that in the long run is to go into space.

Hopefully more people can think further ahead than you.

Re:In related news...

[geekoid]

SIgh, all the mod points in the world won't make you less stupid.
really, NASA is the reason? that's where we are going to go for cut backs? one of the few agencies that makes money for the government?
Idiot.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

People repeat that old "we must go into space to survive" mantra without any real appreciation at all as to exactly how inhospitable and hard-to-reach space and all the other known planetary bodies in our solar system really are (and how almost-inconceivably vast the distance is to any other solar system). In short, as inhospitable as this planet would be after a comet collision or other major disaster, it would still be *much*, *much*, *much* more hospitable, reachable, and survivable than any other place that we could reasonably ever reach even with several orders of magnitude more technological advancement. Expending efforts to build colonies on the moon would be laughably more inefficient response to such a threat than building more innovative, sustainable, protected environs right here on Earth.

Space is a vast resource sink. The human desire to travel to and live there is based on dreams and wishful thinking, not on thoughtful reasoning.

Re:In related news...

[sponglish]

You seem to think of the Earth as a safe haven. It isn't. This gentle blue planet has tried to kill every living thing on it at least four times over the eons, maybe the next time it'll succeed.

For example, the megavolcano in Yellowstone could go medieval on us and kill everything but the cockroaches and Chuck Norris.

It's short-sighted to think "building more innovative, sustainable, protected environs right here on Earth" is any kind of plan for dealing with a hostile Universe. We need to get off this rock and emigrate to other galaxies ASAP, because who knows when the black hole at the center of this one will suck us in, or we could get slammed by a dinosaur killer, or even be consumed by an enormous mutant star goat.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

Even if the entire atmosphere of the earth completely disappeared tomorrow, this planet would still be much more livable than any other planetary body in the solar system.

As for the "emigrate to other galaxies," I would counter only with the observation that you obviously have no conception of the distances we're talking to even travel to nearby solar systems, much less galaxies. It takes the fastest craft we have ever built about 9 years just to reach the Pluto. That's 9 years to travel just 38.5 AU. The distance to the NEAREST solar system (Proxima Centauri) from our own is 266,715 AU away. At that same speed, it would take us over 62,000 years to reach it. And that's the NEAREST solar system.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

NASA makes money for the government? Really? Because all the numbers I've seen say that the government has to GIVE them about $17 billion a year. I must have missed the part where NASA gave any of that money back.

Re:In related news...

[sponglish]

You lectured me about traveling to galaxies but were otherwise OK with the mutant star goat?! That should have been a clue that the whole paragraph was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

As for your point about the Earth sans atmosphere being more livable than other planets, well that's true...today. We need a space program to learn to terraform other planets, develop gee-whiz space drives that make traveling to other star systems practical, and do whatever else is needed to ensure the survival of the human race. A policy based on never leaving the Earth just sets us up for extinction.

Re:In related news...

[AnfieldSierra]

With an attitude like this, it's amazing to me that your ancestors ever decided to crawl out of the primordial slime.

Re:In related news...

[gad_zuki!]

Why does any NASA headline always bring out the anti-science goons? How about trimming the defense budget first? You know the half TRILLION one? Or corporate handouts? Or foreign aid? Science should be last on the chopping block, not first.

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that NASA only expends less than 1% of the U.S. budget. How about we shut all the wars down, those are costing so much more.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

The year Apollo 11 put a man on the moon (1969) was the last year in U.S. history that the national debt actually DROPPED. It was somewhere around $300 billion then (about 38% of our GDP). Today the national debt is $11 trillion (about 70% of our GDP) and GROWING at a rate of about $1 trillion each year (and that doesn't even include staggering long-term entitlements like Social Security and Medicare that are coming up for the baby boomers, or the long-term medical and veterans benefits for the recent Iraq War each expected to run into multiple trillions of $).

The appeal now isn't about stopping world hunger. It's about stopping the U.S. government from going into bankruptcy (turning all those wonderful dollars you and I have in our bank account to worthless computer bits and colorful pieces of pretty paper).

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

My ancestors not only crawled out of the slime, they also learned how to present reasoned arguments instead of just slinging insults and offering clichéd emotional appeals to irrational dreamers.

Re:In related news...

[m85476585]

It's attitudes like that that are the reason the US is behind the rest of the world in Math and Science education, and falling behind in math, science, and engineering jobs. The Apollo program was, if nothing else, an inspiration to kids at the time.

Sure, doing anything in space is impractical and expensive now, but so were computers in the '70's. Eventually, private companies will take over space travel from NASA, but we aren't quite there yet. Until then, NASA needs to bridge the gap and keep space missions going.

Also, don't forget that we *have* benefited from putting stuff in space. If you have a GPS in your car, you are using space technology. I know the stuff NASA is doing now doesn't have much to do with satellites, but it might be important to whatever is coming next. Just like satellites today use a lot of ideas from the space race (controls and propulsion systems to keep them in orbit, etc).

Investment in research and development like NASA might have no short-term benefit, but it will lead to long-term economic growth. Without a supply of new technology, it will be difficult for our economy and the global economy to grow. Think of the industrial revolution and how much the global economy has grown since then as a result of technology that was revolutionary at the time. For a more modern example, look at China, which is experiencing explosive growth because of their recent industrialization. The space revolution could be the next industrial revolution, we just don't know it yet because it hasn't happened yet. If everyone had your attitude about science, we would be stuck in the dark ages dying of plagues.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

Did I say that we shouldn't be trimming elsewhere also? Of course we should. But pointing out that other agencies waste even MORE money is a pretty piss-poor excuse for wasting money at NASA. The hundreds of millions of $ wasted on each shuttle launch isn't exactly chicken feed, irregardless of whether or not it's dwarfed by waste in other agencies. As for the "we should fund science" argument, that's fine. But there are a *lot* better ways to use $700 million in science funding than to send up yet another space shuttle to service the ISS. Both the shuttle and the ISS have made only small, dubious contributions to science. Compared to what the billions of $ spent on those programs could have done here on earth, both are woefully inefficient ways to pursue genuine scientific advancement.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

How about we do both?

Re:In related news...

[AnfieldSierra]

Whoosh!

Your ancestors (metaphorically) crawled out of the slime, in order to explore new environments and face new challenges when rational thinking would have left them happily swimming in sludge and sucking mud through their teeth.

Progress isn't founded solely on rational thinking and your existence here with the ability to trade insults over a complex system like the internet, proves it.

If the narrow-minded thinking that you've displayed was the norm, no one (historically) would have invested any time or effort in anything other than obtaining food and shelter. Arts, literature, culture, science and technology are all the result of having the ability to dream "irrationally" of something else.

You can probably thank someone else's ancestors for that. We can only hope that your particular branch of the evolutionary tree doesn't contribute any further to the gene pool.

Re:In related news...

[cmdr_klarg]

The problem with your statement is that WANT and even NEED are both subjective terms (until you get to the basics such as air, food, water, etc). I WANT to have a successful US space program, but I also submit that it is something the US NEEDS.

You want to talk about money sinks? How about Iraq, the Wall Street bailout, etc? If you want to cut spending then you need to go after the biggest spenders first. I'm sure NASA could be made more efficient, but trimming a $17 billion budget will not put an appreciable dent in the national debt, and would make us one step closer to becoming a third world country without a space program.

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

WOW! Millions of dollars? Good thing the Iraq war is only costing us billions, otherwise we'd be screwed. Oh, and good thing bailouts are cheap too...

Dude, get a grip! The space program is not the first place to look for cost cutting. Sure, there are plenty of inefficiencies, but show me something that can't be improved.

Re:In related news...

[Titoxd]

$650-$750 million that goes into high-tech, high-paying jobs that cannot be outsourced (security clearances) sounds like something we REALLY NEED at this point, if you ask me. If anything, we need more space spending to stimulate the economy directly at a time of recession.

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Delos Harriman? Are you here?

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you have, it's called taxes.

How much money does the federal and state government makes from business taxes, and employee taxes on companies that make/import smoke detectors?
A NASA spin off. And that's just 1 out of dozens, if not hundreds of items that business can sell to consumers becasue of NASA developments.

The US government has got over 13 tax dollars back for everyone it spent on Apollo.

Re:In related news...

[elrous0]

Yeah, and most of these "spinoffs" are urban legends, including the smoke detector, which was not developed by NASA. And the "13 dollars for every 1" "fact" is just as much horseshit as your history of the smoke detector.

Re:In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I just don't care because I don't have kids... I dunno.

Re:In related news...

[JSBiff]

". . .if you ask me. If anything, we need more science and engineering spending to stimulate the economy directly at a time of recession."

There, fixed it for you.

I do think there is a place for the government to spend money on science and engineering R&D, but I have to at least partly agree with the GP. While I don't think we should completely cut NASA, I think it might be time for us to consider scaling down our space spending, for awhile (future generations can increase space funding again, when the country is no longer bankrupt).

We need science and engineering spending with more short and mid term applications. Things like energy R&D (a good start would be to re-start the Integral Fast Reactor program that was cancelled by Clinton when it was about 80% finished, and to increase funding for Fusion, Biomass, and other alternative energy research). Increased spending on Health R&D, and improved use of government IT to reduce costs related to administrative overhead and fraud.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of terrestrial science and engineering that are currently under-funded, which would have more concrete benefits to our economy in the short and near term (near being, say, within 50 years; e.g. I've seen estimates that we can probably develop practical, economical fusion power plant designs within 30 - 50 years if we commit sufficient funding to it - that might sound like a long time, but really, the sooner we commit to giving it enough funding, the sooner we can get fusion tech, which could have a very big positive impact on the world economy; another example would be superconductor research - I've seen some estimates about how much energy is lost during electrical transmission on the current grid, and the impact super conductors would have on that ), than the space programs do.

Note, I don't think NASA should be completely scaled back, because there is, I believe, a lot of scientific research with terrestrial applications which can only be done in space (because of the need for microgravity), but as the GP said, we do need to think carefully about how we spend money, because the US is close to bankruptcy.

Re:Women let out of kitchen, things go wrong..

[aproposofwhat]

Arr, ye scurvy landlubber - that be a galley ye were looking for!

An' there be plenty o' reasons for lassies on ships, me hearty :o)

Wow....

[RulerOf]

I don't know about you, but if my woman was at home making babies while I'm out on a space walk, I'd be pissed.

Incoming!!

[sponglish]

That's just great, she got sloppy and managed to lose a kit of heavy tools in an orbit that'll keep it a hazard to shuttles docking with the ISS.

As if the shuttle missions weren't dangerous enough, if they don't retrieve that kit, there's the potential of a future shuttle's pilot being (briefly) surprised as the wayward tools come crashing through the cockpit window, followed by the rush of escaping air, orifices spouting blood, and (for the grand prize) an out-of-control shuttle slamming into the ISS. Michael Bay call your office.

Re:Incoming!!

[Ollabelle]

Or, more likely, it'll never be seen again near the station. Even after one day, the bag is already 2.5 miles in front, either due to the extra velocity imparted by moving the bag "out of the way" or imparted by the exploding grease gun.

Re:Incoming!!

[sponglish]

That's the problem, nobody knows where it'll finally end up, but it's likely it'll be floating within ten miles of the ISS, just waiting for the law of averages to catch up with some luckless shuttle.

Re:Incoming!!

[Deadstick]

The number of stray objects in orbit large enough to see on radar now stands at around thirteen thousand. OK, now it's thirteen thousand and one. And this one is in a low orbit, which means it won't be up long.

rj

Re:Incoming!!

[sponglish]

Depends on how you define "long", but I agree only next two years of shuttle flights are at risk. Thanks to atmospheric drag the bag will lose about 20 miles of altitude a year, so it'll come crashing Earthwards late in 2010.

Re:Incoming!!

[nadamucho]

Lucky for everyone, that's not the case. It is moving in the same orbit as ISS, only very slightly faster in FRONT of it. When the shuttle comes up to dock with ISS, it starts out behind it and "catches up", then when it undocks, it "backs away". Besides, although it's hurtling through space at 17500mph, it's relative velocity is less than a quarter mile per hour compared to ISS or any shuttle which will be remotely close to it.

Earthlings Litter

[Tarmus]

An alien probe will likely happen upon this flotsam, and what will this say about our civilization?

Re:Earthlings Litter

[sponglish]

That's not very likely since aliens usually probe Uranus.

Re:Earthlings Litter

[X0563511]

Um... that we like to build things?

And in today's episode of "learning the internet"

[clone53421]

Google or Wiki, Ctrl-F, "astronaut", Enter.

Gr*sr

[Linker3000]

So can we look forward to a sentient grease gun arriving back in Earth orbit some time in the future demanding to speak to the head mechanic?

MOD PARENT & GRANDPARENT UP!!!

[denzacar]

Or better yet - add links to the summary.

Link to video

[simasg]

As seen on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2WxffbLFuY

Please return if found...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they say where to return the bag?

And in today's episode of "ooh my brain hurts"

[smoker2]

Welcome to the world of scientific discovery !

You take what you know in that sentence and that gives you some idea of what it is that you don't know is related to. If the knowledge is necessary for you to have, you investigate further. If you don't care, don't bother investigating. Either way, expecting to have every little term laid out for you in order for your lazy ass to get it, is not going to get you very far.

I suspect from your low uid that you're trolling anyway. I'm 42 and have known what an EVA in the context of space flight has meant for roughly 38 years. I find it hard to accept that in all the time you have been registered here that you have NEVER seen the term EVA used. So maybe you think you are doing people a service by hopefully getting /. to do what you ask. Well, no actually you're not. Maybe you don't see the need to encourage people to use their brains independently, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. The more you learn, the more you remember. If you don't bother learning, then you end up asking the same questions over and over again.

It's a life choice. Be happy being ignorant, but pissing people off with stupid questions, or you can use your own resources, learn something and so not depend on others for your information (as far as possible). If you are the latter pretending to be the former, you are the former.

I know where it is!

[N. P. Coward]

The universal law of dropped tools while working on one's own vehicle still applies, it's now just a matter of scale...
The grease gun has rolled to the exact center of the underside of the solar system. Nasa needs to get one of those extendable grabber/magnet do-hickeys.

Tools Are In OUR Possession: +1, Informative

[Anonymous Coward]

And with payment of Euro 100,000,000,000 OR the jailing of this war criminal,
the tools will be returned.

Cordially,
Kilgore Trout

This is why...

[gbutler69]

...we shouldn't insist on and encourage women in science and engineering careers!

Re:This is why...

[deltacephei]

Especially since we at slashdot support pathetic excuses for all the errors committed by males in science and engineering:

http://listverse.com/science/top-10-worst-engineering-disasters/

Re:This is why...

[multipartmixed]

Are you kidding?

If we don't allow women into space, who is going to clean up all that fast-flying orbital garbage??

Garbage layer

[EZLeeAmused]

Wasn't there some sci-fi writer who hypothesized that any space-going race would eventually lose the ability to go to space because of a fast orbiting shell of debris that builds up around the planet?

Everything is a money risk

[freedom_india]

Everything is a money risk.
Paying $500 million to an investment bank's board so that they make us unemployed and make us lose our homes also.
Paying $500 million to KBR makes our troops eat dirt and sand and snow.
Paying $500 million to Blackstone group makes them break our bones and will.
Paying $500 million to campaign funds of senators brings us Tube Stevens and Gonzales
Everything is a money risk my friend. Everything...

recruit at jiffy lube instead

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what they get for not using an ASC certified mechanic....

In other, unreported, news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Astronaut Loses Lunch While Performing an STA (Salad Tossing Activity)

EVA?

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFG

Re:That's why women don't belong in space

[MightyYar]

Sort of disappointing, isn't it? I was hoping for a revelation with a little more flair.

I, for one,

[geekoid]

welcome are new overlords with grease covered tools~

Training

[conureman]

If all of the ISS personnel were required to have a training program.. wait. Well, if they were required to do some of their training on a fairly dangerous cliff face, where they could practice using those carabiners, and weed out some of the forgetful candidates... I myself am rather afraid of dropping tools on people, and have developed a lanyard-based protocol for all my aerial work. It is completely second nature, so it doesn't interfere with the job. Others do laugh, but nerds have been entertaining the masses for millennia, I'm used to it.

WTF

[hesaigo999ca]

We pay you to be an astronaut and also be smart...if you go outside, where 1million things go wrong,
and only have 1 bag or 2 bags of tools...you better tie them with a surfboard ankle tie or something...so we don't end up losing the keys to the shuttle too!

OOOOOOOPS!

Ahh I liked EVE

[Technopaladin]

But Wall*E has a place in my heart.

Hmmff

[slysithesuperspy]

It is not customary for women to attach their handbag to their dress.

N'SYNC will be dissapointed

[nadamucho]

Lance Bass was still hoping to be the first greasebag in space. Oh well.

What goes around, comes around.

[Ihlosi]

Especially true for tools floating away while in orbit.

lost in space

[bugs2squash]

Wasn't there a "lost in space" episode where the hero dropped a wrench that subsequently became space debris and caused an accident.

Perhaps the astronauts need an attorney; I've heard that litigiousness is ruining martian society.

Death by Velcro?

[ErkDemon]

Velcro is wonderful stuff for zero-gee, but do remember that it was partly blamed by some for the death of three astronauts in Apollo 1, so it's tactful not to refer to it as "safe".

Story goes, the Apollo missions were supposed to run on reduced cabin pressure. 80% of air is just fairly useless nitrogen, so they figured, we can get away with a lower pressure but still have the astronauts breathing the same amount of oxygen, if we use a lower pressure but "up" the oxygen content to compensate.

So the Apollo 1 training exercise used a 100% oxygen environment. But since it was done on the ground, they were using pure oxygen at atmospheric-pressure. Now as anyone who's read the regs on bus driving licences knows, pure oxygen is potentially very dangerous stuff. Velcro is deliberately made of soft flexible plastics, and has a very high surface area, and it's been suggested that hot velcro in 1-atmosphere pure oxygen might be somewhat prone to bursting into flames.

Probably perfectly safe in the context of anchoring things in a vacuum, but ... triggers some uncomfortable memories of incinerated astronauts.

Well, exept it already did

[Moraelin]

Because it wouldn't happen to a guy. :P

Except, say, to the Russians repairing the ISS with improvised tools, because they lost the original tools. Or that guy Ed White, the first spacewalker, who lost a spare glove. Or Piers Sellers who lost a spatula. Or those intrepid souls in 2006 who lost a couple of bolts while connecting an addition to the ISS. Or let's hear it for Jerry L. Ross on STS-88, who managed to lose an anchor socket and a panel into space on the very first spacewalk, then a thermal blanket on the second spacewalk. Etc.

(Though, in all fairness, more fun than guys losing tools was when an Indonesian sat got hit by feces. Literally. That's when NASA stopped dumping their shit in space.)

Or on Earth, you have such fine specimens as Dr. Wesley Meyers, the dentist who managed to kill a patient by dropping a too down his throat (and into his lung.) A second time.

Re:Well, exept it already did

[againjj]

(Though, in all fairness, more fun than guys losing tools was when an Indonesian sat got hit by feces. Literally. That's when NASA stopped dumping their shit in space.)

[Citation needed]

Anything "dropped" in orbit stays in orbit until/unless the orbit decays, at which point it hits atmosphere, and then things start burning up. Whatever hits the ground would not be recognizable. Besides, in googling around, I could only find things that talked about how feces was stored, and only greywater got dumped.

Re:Well, exept it already did

[Moraelin]

I meant sat as in satellite. Sorry if it wasn't clear. And if it's in a close enough orbit, it can happen.

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

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Radio silence

[ErkDemon]

You don't want the world listening in to a conversation between a bunch of macho guys who've just realised that they're all alone in a sealed capsule with nothing to lose, no chance of escape and a few hours left to live.

Mission Control:
"And so, the world waits and listens, as the brave astronauts consider how to spend their last few hours of precious life. We can no longer communicate with the heroic crew, but we have one last audio feed still working. We can hear them, but tragically, they can't hear us ... "

Audio feed:
"Chuck?"
"Yeah, Tony?"
"We're gonna die, ain't we?"
"Yeah, Tony. We are."
"Is there anything you really wished you'd tried, just once, when you had the chance?"
"A few things, Tony. Yeah. A few."
"Have you ever wondered what, like, it'd be like to 'do it' with another guy? Because ..."

Mission Control:
"Aaargh! Aargh! Noooooo! Turn it OFF!"

Re:Radio silence

[moosesocks]

I suppose this could be why David Bowie's Space Oddity wasn't sung as a duet.

better quit while you're ahead

[loshwomp]

I am guessing this guess is only accurate to maybe two orders of magnitude.

...and then...

That claim that I heard is probably off by even more orders of magnitude.

You'd better quit; your stories appear to be losing accuracy over time, and I fear for your next one.

In other news......

[WyrdOne]

...a young woman was killed by a de-orbiting tool today. Where she has joined the ranks of the undead in helping procure souls from people to help them pass beyond death. Later to be made into a great TV series by Showtime showing Gen-Y apathy and angst.

Not to Worry

[AttillaTheNun]

All potato chips were recovered.

mmmm, potato chips.

Chicken Little...

[lionchild]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sk...wait, this is just a bag of tools. WTH?! ;-)

LOL, NASA

[autophile]

Need Another Seven Allen wrenches

Re:I was just wondering... MWO? No Jet Packs?

[davidsyes]

I thought there were jet packs for EVA work. It should be possible to sit in one and maneuver about for repairs. The tool kit could have been tethered to the EVA pack, instead of to the suit itself. Even so, why was there not any suction or (if the vehicle/satellite is not too electronically sensitive or the panels not too thin/fragile) magnetic tether to the module so it would not float away. Even better, two tethers would secure it and prevent flailing. The suction could be like the squeeze type so the astronaut can vary the suction force based on where the items are secured, since the structure/body may have varying door/adjacent area panel thicknesses...

Kunster said:

"Failure on Earth means you pick up the wrench and go back at it. Failure up there is a dead person on a mission with a multiples of billions of dollars pricetag hung off to the side."

One thing to consider is that while not ripping space suite, down on Earth, dropping a tool could result in a dead person, a crashed car, or multiple serious injuries leading to lawsuits. When I was in "The Nav", we ALWAYS were required to have ourselves tethered to the stanchion, or to a secure point on the hull or king post or bulkhead, have a safety observer, and also secure our tools. Tools were in a bucket which was secured to separate attach points, not on the person using them. Our staging chair ALSO was on its own secure point. That's why nice wrenches have holes, not just for whirling them around on a pinkie in an engine shop or under a wash bowl, but to secure them to some sturdy point.

I bet those tools were costly. You can't just go to Ace (Sears) Hardware, or Home Depot and replace them.

Headline is really wrong

[UNKN]

After reading that headline, it really REALLY looks wrong. I won't even go into what I came up with for EVA and how it concerns losing a tool...

String

[omb]

A ball of string should be mandatory issue, and be used!

Nonsense

[omb]

Assuming you do not need extream accuracy, ie to do General Relativity because you are near the event horizon of a black hole you can yse the very well understood Newton's laws of motion, which should be second nature to a pilot, astronaut or general engineer.

Use a weak, inelastic tie eg string!

Do they have emergency thrusters?

[omb]

If not they should, or not only tool bags could go for a walk! and the main tether should incorporate an an emergency _let_out_ extension.

No Sears

[wolf68k]

Bet she was wishing there was a Sears in space now

In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

Lady Bracknell is shocked.

Re:I was just wondering... MWO? No Jet Packs?

[Kagura]

There have only been four untethered EVAs. Three of them to test the Manned Maneuvering Unit, and one to test a similar but smaller variant to be used for personnel rescue.

No, that is why NASA takes too long and costs too

[omb]

People can be trained to ignore their inner ear, all instrument rated pilots, for example, and you can easily test and train for this ability.

The real problem is that NASA dosn't have a job description of _repair_man_ and tries to use specialists in other areas as practical engineers with funny results. My father, with a PhD in mechanical engineering, would hit his head on the hood and put finger in the fan blades everytime he went to check the oil level.

Pretty obviously not the astronauts fault...

[raehl]

Watching the video it's pretty obvious what happened.

Tools in the bag are supposed to be tethered to the bag they are in. You can see the astronaut take the soon-to-be-lost bag out of another bag, and ... no tether. So instead of the lost bag floating a bit and being held there by the tether, it floated a bit far and then was out of reach.

Re:That's why women don't belong in space

[clone53421]

Hm. Well, I don't believe you. A miracle would be in order, I suppose.

Re:Women let out of kitchen, things go wrong..

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a faggot, aren't you?

They should have had a child there

[Tired and Emotional]

To hand them tools as they needed them. That's how it always worked when I was a child.

Women and affirmative action

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what happens when you put women and niggers in space for AA/political reasons. The comments show that the bitch does not even care about how much trouble she has caused. Full of attitude.

Bag didn't match

[Bordgious]

We all know the _real_ reason why she let the bag go... it just didn't matcher her outfit.

Obligatory famous quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Surprised no-one has said this, "Ah, Houston, we have a problem"

figures

[bobvious]

women

This is nothing new.......

[Anonymous Coward]

Those of us who have worked on seaplanes and floatplanes, while they are still afloat on the water, know what it's like to loose tools. The idea of putting each tool on a rope is kinda cumbersome and really slows things down.

Purse on the roof.

[n0dna]

All I can picture is the shuttle coming in for landing with her purse sitting on the roof where she put it while loading the toolbox into the trunk.

Re:That's why women don't belong in space

[multi io]

Women belong at home, making dinner and babies. God has so commanded.

No I haven't.

Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're letting women into space now?

Also, why is no one coming down on the person at fault for fucking up? I know if I lost a $100,000 tool I'd get my ass canned.

Re:I was just wondering - Nay, not I

[Anonymous Coward]

Gentlemen, gentlemen..! You are missing the point!

To hell the the damn toolbag and elliptical orbits intersecting.. bla blah...

I just want her to iron my damn shirt! (unless of course the iron is in the toolbag)

The lady might even be cheered up by the fact that it may be considered an act of extreme ironing

Lady astronauts... BAH!