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Square Enix Shuts Down Fan-Made Chrono Trigger Sequel
KIllagouge writes "Just days before the release of Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes, SquareEnix sent a Cease & Desist letter to Chrono Compendium to stop everything to do with Crimson Echoes. People might remember when they did this with Chrono Resurrection. Seems to be the growing trend; instead of listening to their fans, which would net them even more money, game developers continue to lock down old gaming IP. A copy of the C&D letter is available online."
The fan project had been in development since 2004 and was 98% complete.
No, not at all. Your handle is indeed apt, sir.
The argument is that a merchandise so popular fans make unofficial sequels is one that you can easily produce titles for and sell them to make money.
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
So I looked at the fan-made sequel... it's a ROM hack. Not that I really have anything against such modifications, they do encourage people to pirate the game (search Google for a ROM, get the game illegally!), especially since hardware to legitimately dump the ROM images are expensive and rare enough that it's unlikely even the mod authors have them.
Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).
And he's saying that argument does not have any logical/statistical/whatever evidence to back it up, thus making it an empty opinion.
Step 1: Find Copyrighted work
Step 2: Create derivative work without appropriate agreements/contracts
Step 3: Get sent cease and deist letter
Come on guys, wake up. This is someone else's work, you obviously misjudged the company you are dealing with. Why not start something from scratch, so that you don't end up in a situation like this.
If you can't make money off a product so popular that people want to invest 5 years of thier lives to make sequels and give it away then you are doing something seriously wrong. The production of the sequels indicates large demand, yet no supply.
The argument could be that this is a ROM mod. Aka you need to download the game (likely illegally) to play it.
I wonder if it'd be different if it had a separate engine, or would they send a C&D letter for that too? Hmm... they probably would.
Never heard of them
I can make do without their game. Can they make do without my money?
So far, so good.
Now that I have heard of them, and know how they behave towards community projects, I'll avoid them at all costs.
I can make do without their game. Can they make do without my money?
Yes, probably.
It's almost the same argument as the filesharing canard that says that companies need to either give away their music for free or face going out of business.
Boy, you really do live up to your name, don't you?
And he's saying that argument does not have any logical/statistical/whatever evidence to back it up, thus making it an empty opinion.
Any idea how much an original Chrono Trigger fetches? Do you know how many people bought it originally (SNES)... the second time (PSX)... and the third time (DS)?
Then there's Chrono Cross. Care to take a shot at how many purchased that game? It made the "Best Seller" reprint list.
Square-Enix could make a king's fortune selling a third Chrono game. They know this... we've been begging (literally) for another Chrono game. But no... S-E is too busy milking the Final Fantasy cow to really care. Who wants a turn-based RPG anymore? It's all about the flashy graphics and real-time combat.
By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger of yours going?
Put simply, if they released another one, we'd buy it in a heartbeat (well, maybe not so much now). We don't make fangames or listen to symphony orchestras perform the music of those games because we hate 'em...
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
I see Time Trigger: Crimson Echos being released with similar but distinctly different looking characters.
I mean, come on square - they weren't looking to make money off it, it wasn't costing square anything and if it was good it would only yield positive results surely?
I'd say I'd never buy anything from Square ever again out of protest but they are partners with Gas Powered Games on Supreme Commander II and there is no way I'm missing that.
Although that is a fair point about needing to download the ROM to play it, I'd wager that most of the people interested in this project do already own a legal copy of Chrono Trigger for either SNES or Playstation. It's not like some obscure game only available in Japan that you couldn't ever be bothered to find a copy of on ebay... it's Chrono Trigger.
It always seems the "IP"-holder sends a cease and desist letter when the project is nearly done, almost like they want to cause as much pain as possible to the people trying to remake something.
What frustrates me most is that these projects then aren't worked on to completion and then simply distributed by anonymous torrents, working for several years on something and then getting cut off at the last minute is simply a dick move.
Great, what does that have to do with the profitability of fan made mods?
I can see that they'd want to make sure they are still driving the storyline in whatever direction they want it to go...on the other hand, given the costs of developing RPGs (in particular), with an obviously interested fanbase who'd buy something like this, it seems like they're missing an opportunity to get together with the people developing this and put it out on the DS or whatever. IIRC, there was a fan-based mod of Half Life which went on to be sold as a standalone game in its own right (can't remember the name -- like a western in space or something).
Squaresoft used to be a great game maker but went the way platypus and had way to much useless added to it. Now it is an anime company plain and simple. Does it care about the final fantasy series? No has it cared about the legacy of good rpgs? No. It makes games that are anime with no depth.
... they only had it shut down because they are developing their own sequel, right?
Right?
No? Yeah, that's what I thought too.
THE HONOUR OF THE KNIGHTS - CC Licensed Sci-Fi Novel
Awww man. I was hoping for an analogy. Something like 'Toast with butter on top is still really good and even though I don't have your money I plan to eat it and live long and happy' or something just as terrible =(
If I was witty I'd put something funny here but, as it stands, I am not and have just wasted seconds of your life
I'd wager that most of the people interested in this project do already own a legal copy of Chrono Trigger for either SNES or Playstation.
But they probably do not own the equipment to copy their Super NES cartridges to the PC. Per UMG v. MP3.com, owning a lawfully made copy doesn't entitle you to download another copy elsewhere.
Dear Square/Enix,
This is a bad move. I would consider it childish. Listen to your fans! Learn how the new economy works or you will fail.
Don't give me that story about your sucessful games. You will go broke if you don't adapt quickly. This is a sign that you're venturing on the wrong path.
This is your wake-up-call Square/Enix, you're about to miss out on new business-opportunities. For which I'm very thankful.
Signed,
A small dutch gamecompany-startup which shall remain nameless.
Replace X characters with new Y characters.
Is it still infringement?
Yes. It's a ROM hack, meaning that it uses most of the same computer program as the original game. Putting new characters in a non-free program doesn't make it not a non-free program.
You've never heard of Square Enix? Why are you even reading an article about games?
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
IIRC, there was a fan-based mod of Half Life which went on to be sold as a standalone game in its own right
That might have been the port of Counter-Strike to Xbox.
(can't remember the name -- like a western in space or something).
"Wagon Train to the Stars" would describe Star Trek.
By the by, S-E, how's that mumorpurger of yours going?
Seven years now and it's still rocking...
Vana'dielian Population Tops Two Million! (22/04/2009)
It is our distinct pleasure to announce that during the third week of April, the total number of active characters across all worlds in FINAL FANTASY XI has exceeded the two million mark for the first time!
Since the commencement of service on May 16th, 2002, Vana'diel has gone on to become a vibrant gathering place for adventurers hailing from all corners of the globe. Boasting four expansions and one add-on scenario with two more in the pipes, FINAL FANTASY XI continues to evolve into an ever richer realm of magic and adventure.
Not bad from the development team responsible for making Chrono Cross really.
IIRC, there was a fan-based mod of Half Life which went on to be sold as a standalone game in its own right (can't remember the name -- like a western in space or something).
It's called "Counter-Strike."
Great, what does that have to do with the profitability of fan made mods?
Mother 3.
Any idea how many copies would sell if the fan mod were sold officially in cartridge format? I'd buy it at 50 bucks and not think twice. Millions would.
Wherever there is demand, there is money to be made. There are no exceptions.
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
They request that all work and copies be deleted.
As far as I know, copyright law doesn't prevent me from doing what I want with the copies I own as far as I don't redistribute it.
Also, they could just say their computers were hacked by some anonymous person that put the file on peer-to-peer websites, hence it can be distributed illegally without them officially doing so.
All that remains is the DMCA that forced them to shut down their website because they explained how to "circumvent" copyright.
They just have to choose a web hosting in a country that doesn't have that kind of stupid law and problem solved.
A dedicated cult fanbase does not automatically mean that it's a marketable audience. It does not take many fans to make a fan game, especially if they aren't shooting for commercial polish.
A lot of great PC games were even more successful than they otherwise might have been because they opened themselves up to the mod community. It's sad and wrong that a fan-produced work that was to be released for free is seen as a threat to the commercial interests of the original IP creator. It's especially bad that Square/Enix decided to wait until the game was nearly completed before the C&D.
I'm afraid that ROM hacking of older systems is going to see this sort of C&D treatment with more frequency. It's the downside of the Virtual Console and the rise in popularity of retro gaming -- when Nintendo put the Virtual Console into the Wii, they basically eliminated the "Abandonware" argument that emulator fans had clung to.
Is there any way they might possibly work a deal out with Square/Enix to have their game put out as an official title, distributed through Virtual Console/Live Arcade?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
I just looked them up. I dislike Manga, especially the Final Fantasy series.
The first turn-based combat game I played was "Swords and Serpents" on the NES. I didn't really like it then, and I don't like them now. I guess that's how I've never heard of them, and why I can still comment on a game article.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Why would Square Enix allow Chrono Compendium to spend 5 years of development time on a project just to threaten legal action 18 days before release? The only really good explanation is sadism. I really wish that Chrono Compendium didn't omit the name and address of the lawyer(s) responsible for the cease and desist letter, I would have liked to have known these bastards names, perhaps we could have traced back their lineage and gained some crucial insight into what compels people to deliberately and willfully spit on the face of their fellow man. We may have discovered that they were the products of incest, that really would explain a lot. Until the names are uncensored from the cease and desist letter, I'm going to place my money on incest.
It should have been obvious this would happen. A few years back Square shut down a 3D Chrono Trigger remake project.
Assuming they did not rip off too much, they should just rename the game, characters, locations, redraw the character sprites so they bare no resemblance and then release like that. If they are still not happy and are feeling daring, they can later "leak" a patch which changes everything back to as it was originally intended.
Your logic has a certain flaw, right there. No business can do without expansion nowadays. It doesn't matter anymore, whether you make a billion dollars in profits, it's important that you make more profit than you did last year.
Even ignoring that, people who buy your products aren't automatically addicted to them. Sometimes they even have the nerve and die. That means you need new customers to replace those who no longer can or want to buy from you.
So basically, his question makes a lot of sense.
considering that S-E wouldn't have to develop it, and someone else already did? Tons.
S-E could take 10 percent, and they'd still rake in a fortune. 10% profit off of something that costs you 0 as you didn't even have to develop it, is a pretty good profit. Even better than patents/copyright/trademarks.
Should have offered to buy the project and put it out as Wiiware if it was any good. Closing a project down with no release is such a waste.
I am sure it is pointless. But Kajar Laboratories should at least publicly state their willingness to assign all copyrights on any original work to Square for some nominal fee.
If it is truly of interest to the fans, how much could it cost Square to release it as a legit cart? (V. how much Valve made on CS:Source and TF2:Source)
Can't they just release their work as a patch to the ROM? Then they're not distributing the infringing IP themselves. They'd have to either leave artwork alone or create artwork from scratch but other than that, I'm not sure what Square could do about it. Get your own ROM, patch it, and play the Chrono sequel. Sound pretty straightforward to me but maybe I'm missing something.
I began to write a rather angry email to Square Enix after reading the articles. However, halfway through, I realized where they might be coming from.
They have a DS version of Chrono Trigger that was first released at the end of 2008, and is still fairly "new" around the world. If people download the original ROM in order to hack it, or through CT:Crimson Echoes find out that they can easily play CT for free, the DS version might lose those potential sales.
Personally, I think the value of free advertisement and brand recognition that CT:CE would have given Square Enix would outweigh this. I also believe those people who buy the DS version do so for other reasons, such as portability. But I do see where Square Enix is coming from, and why they chose to stop the project now.
...after all, they did release their own 3D remake of Chrono Trigger after they shut down Chrono Ressurection.... right?
Oh, yeah, they didn't.
And we probably won't see a Chrono sequel either. Ever since they simply gave up on the "Chrono Break" trademark, I'm pretty much convinced that the franchise does not interest them anymore. Not enough to work on it beyond releasing ports.
NEEERD RAAAAGE!!!
True, but it's a fairly good indicator. C'mon though, it's Chrono Trigger ffs ... who doesn't have memories of playing that game for hours and hours on end?
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
No it doesn't. Practically no company tries to be everything to everyone and for good reason. When a company is looking to expand its customer base it will focus its effort on a couple customer demographics that it believes make sense (safe bet is people who haven't even heard of S-E, but are willing to boycott them over this isn't one of them).
Any idea how much an original Chrono Trigger fetches?
A few years back, I sold an original copy of Chrono Trigger on ebay with box, manual, and strategy guide for the tune of 110$ I can only imagine the value has increased of late.
Yes... Square Enix should listen to their fans and release sequel with a crono x Magus love story! Heck there's plenty of relationships in the fanfics they could choose from. Frog x robo!
Just because fans want something doesn't mean you should do it . Yes Square could easily show off a cheaply made Chrono Trigger 2 for the DS and it would sell a ton of copies. However it would cheapen the brand unless it's a stellar game and they'd lose most goodwill to it.
Likewise giving fan made games like this a nod cheapens the brand.
It's not easy handling cult classics. You try to cash in on them and you just end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Look at Lucas Art's reputation for making games in the 90's. Look at their reputation now.
Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...
There is a long and storied tradition of a huge fan upswell convincing a company to put for money on a project only for it to fail due to lack of actual sales when the time comes.
Where's the torrent?
I have this really funny quote that I like to put here. Unfortunately, there's this really annoying thing called a char
They've made do without your money so far: signs point to yes.
Feel free to boycott them anyway, if it makes you happy.
In all seriousness, though, if you want to punish a company for taking a painfully hard line against fan projects set in their universes---consider directing your wrath against Fox. Put the words "Aliens" and "mod" in excessively proximity together and you may find yourself in mortal peril from the velocity of incoming cease and desist letters. Google turns up results pretty easily, if you don't believe me.
Chances are, there're a few Fox products you could be weaning yourself off of.
Same arguement could be made for Potter Slash fics and yet somehow, I don't see Rowling taping this unlimited market. She keeps muttering something about "purity of the source".
Well duh. So to maximize their profits they need to close down the fan stuff. Pretty simple logic, if you're not a complete freetard.
Their 'fan game' is a modification or patch to the real game. You have to have romdumped the real game (or obtained a ROM through other means), in order to apply the patch.
It is not as if this was being distributed as a download that a non-owner of the game could just fetch and play.
I understand the need for people to show off their hard work. In this case however; they could have easily kept it internal/quiet, until the mod was released.
Once out in the open C&D letters aren't even worth the time for a lawyer to write them up.
Will this(among many others) start a trend of keeping these mods/hacks secret to avoid C&D letters?
Of course in a perfect world SE could have offered them a big fat check for all the new material.
Then doesn't it come down to worst-case-scenario money? If they spent $0 on it, and at worst, make $0 from it, why spend $$$ on lawyers to shut it down?
This looks like they stand to make between $0 and $$$ on it. How does that justify spending any money to shut it down?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Last time I checked, Final Fantasy was turn based. Although I haven't played anything since FF VII. Although I've seen VIII. What stopped me from playing was the 2 minute cut scenes for every single attack. But that's another conversation. Also Chrono Trigger, at least as I played it, wasn't strictly turned based. There was actually 2 modes. One which was turn based, and one that was more interactive, in that you couldn't just sit there for 2 minutes thinking of your next move, or the bad guys would attack you a bunch of times.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Develop the game anonymously using an svn server in the Philippines or something, and then distribute it by BT. Avoid using real names and addresses for all concerned.
Then, let the bastards stew. They can send C&D letters to the entire population of Western Europe, what does it get them?
I can't believe that they spent all that effort developing this game and didn't do so in a way that would let them, at the least, try to stay undetectable.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
That much? I bought one at an anime convention about a year ago -- original Japanese Super Famicom cartridge with box, manual, and holographic cards -- and I don't think I paid more than $30 for it.
Crimson Echoes looked like an NES game -- nothing to compete with any current SquareEnix project. If I were with SquareEnix, I'd be more likely to grant them an official license -- thereby protecting IP and trademarks while getting on better terms with the community.
Not to mention, it would possibly work as advertising and to keep interest in the series until SE possibly creates another Chrono Trigger game.
I just looked them up. I dislike Manga, especially the Final Fantasy series.
Manga? What are you prattling about?
I have to wonder if silently allowing them to dedicate so much time to the project and then at the very last minute crying foul could have raised estoppel? It probably should.
Another question on copyright is the idea of a diff. If I distribute a diff to a game, the original game is required to create the derived work by applying the diff. I fail to see where the creator of the original work is deprived in that situation. The mod occurs post-licensing. While it is true that the techniques involved in applying my diff could also be used without the patching step to make an unlicensed copy of the game, that is true whether I create the diff or not.
Since the entire point of copyright is to make more works available, compulsory licensing for anyone who wants it for any purpose makes sense.
If you liked FFVII, don't even THINK about playing any later FF games, because they blow. (If you didn't like FFVII, maybe you will like the later ones.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Final Fantasy isn't manga. It's a video game. Manga is a Japanese term for comic books.
I don't really feel like I should have to geek out on this, but seriously, is it too much to ask that people actually know what they are talking about before they say they "don't like it"?
This is assuming that the game was worth purchasing.
Based on the trailer on their site, I would say that the game would not be worth purchasing. The main draw to squares RPGs is the storyline. Based on the video I watched, the storyline makes no sense and the dialog is horrible.
Who says they waited? Perhaps they just (shock horro) weren't aware of it until now. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean they knew about it.
And maybe it's not all about creative interests and more about the author maintaining control of his creations. I once was an aspiring author (until I realised my prose stinks), and given that every character I write is a reflection of some aspect of myself, having someone else rewrite them would feel like defamation or misrepresentation of me. If someone who is supposed to reflect what I see best about myself is outed as an alcoholic child-abuse victim in a fanfic sequel... well, that's not good.
HAL.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
And how is doing nothing at all helps this?
Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on
But that doesn't mean that when we are discussing a non-US topic, that US law is somehow automatically applicable!
Nor did it mean that we were even discussing a non-US topic. WHOIS says the domain is registered to a proxy company based in Scottsdale, Arizona, USA. And Netcraft's report says the site is hosted in the United States.
We love the old franchises we grew up with and we want to see more of the same, but this has been proven again and again to be a legal dead end. Instead of going underground, forcing the people who worked on this into anonymity, and risking litigation, why not just create a new franchise along the same lines as the old one and distribute that? The gaming industry has done it. How many action RPGs are really just Rogue clones? I'm sure fan productions could do the same.
mmmm...forbidden donut
You know, if the game is 98% done, and S-E doesn't want their 'precious' IP violated, the game developers have a very easy solution - change the name of the game, the name of the character, modify the dialog slightly so it doesn't use the copyrighted character names, and if there are any art assets which are very obviously the same as artwork in any of the Chrono Trigger games, modify the artwork enough that it's 'original', then release. I mean, really, Square-Enix can't stop them from releasing a game - they can only stop them from releasing a game which incorporates Square Enix's copyrights.
Really, just release the game without using any of the Chrono Trigger names, characters, or artwork. Yes, that will delay the release of the game and add more work - but not *that much* additional work. It should be easy enough to make the game original.
If you've never heard of Square Enix, you obviously don't buy a lot of video games. They probably don't care much about your money.
I'm using all of my mod points to mod ancient memes down. Please join me.
I don't have those memories
Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...
No hate to the fans, but Firefly is a bit of a niche story vying for space between the Treks, Wars, Battlestars and countless other sci-fi stories (I actually liked Space: Above and Beyond... I now don my fireproof asbestos lined fire suit).
Chrono Trigger is considered to be one of the greatest video games ever made. It constantly makes it into the single digits on "$WEBSITE'S Top 100 List". You can buy CT complete, or for roughly the same money go buy an Xbox360 (but who would do that?).
To a game enthusiast, Chrono Trigger is in a totally different league. There's very little you can compare it to.
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
Sorry, didn't know there was a difference.
Japanese cartoon-style, Dragonball Z-like, Super-kapow!-mega-punch-combo! turn-based combat games don't interest me.
Sorry for lumping the two together.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
The fact that it "uses most of the same computer program" is irrelevant, as surely that is what is installed in the user's machine, and therefore is not distributed by them?
Because Super NES cartridge copiers (Pro Fighter, Super Magicom, Super Wild Card, etc.) are uncommon in English-speaking countries, most users will obtain "what is installed in the user's machine" by downloading it from a ROM site. This is copyright infringement, even if you already own a legit Game Pak. Universal Music Group v. MP3.com.
The question is whether (a) their ROM hack itself includes copyrighted material
It's likely, given that the IPS format has no way of moving data from one place to another place in a ROM. It's just a list of runs of bytes that are replaced. Besides, new poses of existing characters are probably "non-literal copies" of the existing data.
Here is a theory I have: I believe Video Game Manufactures are trying to go the way of movie Studios (like Disney) where they can put their products in a vault and re-release them every few years. In this case, they will do little more than re-compile it for a new platform when they re-release it. They will get the same few customers to buy the game over and over again.
The C&D letter also included Prophet's Guile (another great CT fan game) and Temporal Flux (program used to make the hack)
I wonder what Square Enix's answer for the Chrono Trigger Novel Project will be.
Just call it 'Time Switch', change the names and faces of the characters slightly and they are golden.
"since 2004 and was 98% complete" so only another 5 years development to go...
need a free COBOL editor for Windows?
And since this series is obviously such a valuable property, of course they want to prevent other people from profitting from it. If everyone and his dog is producing Chrono Trigger Sequels, their official sequel will make less money when and if they decide to produce one.
Well, if you don't like the actions Square Enix has done, I suggest you send an e-mail to Square Enix and let them know that their actions were not appreciated.
I found this email address on their site, perhaps someone else could locate a more appropriate address to send "fan" mail to.
na.support@square-enix.com
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
<patronization>Ah, how cute, one fan thinks his niche product is less niche than some other fan's niche product.</patronization>
Honestly I like both. And I think both are at the same level of "Gee wiz, who would pay money for that" when it comes to the actual public.
I could argue with you about the relevancy of Firefly vs. Chrono Trigger, by pointing out such things as how long the DVDs were on the top twenty best sellers for Amazon. I could point out that ChronoTrigger is in the same "niche story vying for space between..." when it comes to JRPG's.
But that allows you to skip the fact that you completely miss the point. Firefly was simply an example.
One out of many.
Many.
The simple and unfortunate truth in life is it's fairly easy for something to obtain and keep a fanbase, it's a bit harder to turn that fanbase into money. And regardless of how holy your cow is, to most of the rest of the world it's just hamburger.
To be fair, "active characters" is a very bad metric for FFXI, seeing as most people probably have at least one mule, if not more; I had three, two of which had an 80+ crafting skill, and I doubt I was unique.
I guess Square Enix is a bit more interested in taking down ROM crackers than Nintendo was.
I don't say that to be snarky; if you google Pokemon ROM and spend a few hours surfing, you'll discover hundreds of "new" story lines. One of them in progress was called Naranja and featured the Orange Islands, complete with funky skins on the Pokemon as shown in the TV series.
Maybe this one was easier to find, I don't know. But what I do know is that Nintendo hasn't told the thousands of fan generated games (be they places like Pokemon Crater or ROMs like Naranja) to C&D.
Why doesn't Square Enix hire the developers and license it? If it is 98% complete, and it is decent, then it seems like everybody wins.
Well, there's a lot less demand stateside for the Japanese release, since not too many people in the US have a Super Famicom and/or can read Japanese. You can get a Japanese copy of Mother 2 for a fairly reasonable price, but expect to pay well north of 100 bucks (possibly in the neighborhood of 200) for a copy of Earthbound with the box and strategy guide.
Ok, so what you really meant was, "I hate all things Japanese because I assume they're Dragonball Z clones, and I'm just assuming that all the FF games are not only turn-based, but the gameplay is exactly like an old D&D-knockoff NES game that I didn't like. Therefore, I hate Final Fantasy."
Do you realize how absurd your argument sounds? And then you wonder how we'll they can do without your money -- well, so far they've become one of the largest game developers in the world, so I'm sure they're going to collapse under the pressure of some guys on the internet who don't like it when they protect their copyrights and have never bought one of their products anyway...
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
Mmmmm, chronoburger. damnit, now I'm hungry.
The ROM Editor (Temporal Flux) they use and the Manual for it's use can be found at http://geigercount.net/crypt/
Looks neat.
Fans making sequels does not equate to getting sales for an official sequel. Fans are very interested in the product and will go to much greater lengths than other people, the problem is that it's not the level of devotion your fans show that makes you money but the number of people overall who are interested in a sequel. Famitsu's top 50 wanted sequels list was full of games that failed commercially but developed a devoted fanbase, suggesting that these fans had enthusiasm but not numbers.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Enemy Name: The Empire of Square-X
Enemy Purpose: Kidnap characters and using mind control will take over the world!
Main aggressors: Freedom loving Pirates of the Fan Sea. Use Dark Lawjers to destroy them!
lol.
Serenity turned a profit once it went to DVD. Not enough of a success to create another movie, but still a success.
a "leak" of said 98% game. :) Or even the source!
Meridian 59. EPIC WIN. http://openmeridian.org
Maybe but the point is that they're making money from the game and it's played by a lot of people, whereas the original poster implied that it failed. A failed game doesn't get 4 expansions and two more coming.
Mada mada dane.
FFX and FFX2 were still kinda turn based, using active battle time, which means you still had the menues, but if you waited too long, the enemy still got to take their turns. FFXII looked more like an action RPG with menus instead of a turn based RPG, and FFXIII is supposed to be even worse. They are taking the series away from turn based.
Xaotik Designs
That's why it is interesting watching to see how successful Atlantica Online is going to be (or already is?). A turn-based MMORPG sounds horrible, but they've really done a great job at game mechanics. The irony is that they likely had to do F2P because of the impressions that turn-based gives, but they are probably making money hands-over-fist with the micropayment structure they've setup. It isn't usual to hear of people who have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on it.
I haven't played any Chrono games but what you describe is exactly how FF is played since FF 4. It's turn-based but you don't have infinite amount of time to think. The enemies will attack at regular intervals whether you do something or not.
Mada mada dane.
Yeah, same here. Never played it, and I've been gaming since the intellivision...
Xaotik Designs
by non-owner, you mean someone who illegally downloaded a copy of the original game? I don't think that actually qualifies you as an owner...
Xaotik Designs
You mean they're not all turn-based combat games based around the same FF universe? I might give that a look after all.
It's amazing how the internet can be used to share knowledge, isn't it.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Square Enix has quite a legitimate case here and I understand it much better than if they shut down a project making a game from scratch (eg, a typical PC game).
I don't know well this peculiar ROM hack. But from the length of development time for the project and from the description (Same cast going into completely new adventures), I'm under the impression that they have almost completely redone a new game, creating new characters, writing new dialogues, etc...
Their only problem seems that they slapped all these new assets on the original engine as found in the ROM - the code and the sprites of the original cast are maybe the only thing left.
Given all the work already poured into the project, they could try to keep only the newly created assets.
Perhaps, if the ROM hack is as big as the delay and the information on the website let us think, it won't be that much complicated to remove the latest bit that tie the game to Square Enyx franchise :
- change the trademarked names
- create new sprites for the main cast
- use another engine. Preferably an open source one which is provably free of any S.E. content and can be audited. There are lots of open-source turn-based RPG engine. Given the popularity of Chrono Trigger, probably a couple of them can be configured to be close to that game's mechanics.
This will probably add another 2 years of development. But if this time S.E.'s lawyers clearly state what exactly caused the C&D letter and to what extent modification need to be made to make the project IP-law compliant, then the past 4-5 years that went into developing this will still give a result that the fan community will be able to enjoy.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Yep, was wondering the same thing. One day the IP will expire, so they have to take good care of it and make sure that it still exists then. If they just keep it themselves the chances that it will survive are greatly lessened. Courts may subpoena the material, and yes you can secretly hide a copy somewhere but what if they find it, or you die?
Uh, no, it was Gunman Chronicles. The last battle in that game pissed me the hell off. Not because it was hard, but because it was stupid. (Oh no, YOU can't shoot the big ass robot, only your buddy can)
It's a ROM hack, meaning that it uses most of the same computer program as the original game. Putting new characters in a non-free program doesn't make it not a non-free program.
I really, really wish they had a way of moving their operations offshore {...} Alas, I doubt they have the funds for such a thing.
On the other hand, they could move *the assets* they created, instead of moving themselves.
They should slap all the new graphics on some open-source RPG engine.
From what I understand, the main problem is that their fangame uses the original code from the original game's ROM.
If they change the copyrighted names and replace the SNES ROM engine with an open-source PC one, the last bits of Square Enyx Intellectual Property would get removed and thus the Lawyers should be pleased.
(Newer engine should better be open source thus making it easier to prove that nothing was carried over from the original ROM)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I'm not a serious gamer (anymore--still nursing an old Quake injury :-), but lately I've been picking up a few titles. One of the ones I was considering was a Final Fantasy game. I might have bought it soon. Now I never will. I'm aware that Square Enix simply doesn't care about people like me, but it's still $10 or whatever straight out of their bottom line, and I get to feel good about acting congruently with respect to my principles.
There are a lot of problems with capitalism, but one of the really great things is that frequently you get to choose where to spend your dollars, and when you withhold them, that's coming straight out of the company's hide. You don't get that kind of control with voting.
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Which, arguably of course, goes to show that corporations should not be allowed to control things that matter to people, since there is obviously a deeper interest in products than in buying the latest one.
Stop buying S-E products. Enough people quit buying their stuff, they go out of business. I play namco games, and they are better than S-E games by far IMO. S-E has lost its way since FF6/7. Playing RPG is suppose to be an experience that invokes the full range of human emotions. The player is suppose to feel the joy and pain of the main characters. However, most of the current S-E games are nothing but empty shells of the IP franchises they own. Most of them are more about fancy graphics and angst than try to sway and inspire. Feeding the continuation of sub-par factory clones will only land you with worse and worse products.
Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag?
Final Fantasy isn't manga.
Sorry, I'm sure the GP meant "participatory anime". Common mistake.
Seems to be the growing trend; instead of listening to their fans, which would net them even more money, game developers continue to lock down old gaming IP
There is no proof that listening to their fans would net them more money, especially since those fans are creating their own games and not necessarily buying the real product.
It's almost the same argument as the filesharing canard that says that companies need to either give away their music for free or face going out of business.
Actually, in this case, there's plenty of proof that you can stick the word "Chrono" on just about anything and it will sell like hotcakes.
Take a look on eBay... Original copies of Chrono Trigger sell for absurd amounts.
The game sold tons of copies on its first run... Tons more when it was ported to the Playstation... Tons more when it was ported to the DS...
People even bought Chrono Cross, which was a horrible game, just because it was vaguely related to Chrono Trigger.
Fans are literally begging for an official sequel. If one was available it would be purchased without hesitation. Folks would be all over it. There is, in this case, no "real product" to buy - Square-Enix won't produce it. So the fans are creating their own.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
Let it be known to Square-Enix that this was the straw the broke the camel's back. I've been less than happy with Square shutting down Chrono Resurrection and giving us that half-assed non-remake for the DS, now they're shutting down another harmless fan project literally days from release? Enough Square! I was planning a few major purchases this year and next, but not now. I can't support a company that does this shit. They're joining Microsoft on my active boycott list. It may not make much of a difference, but I refuse to give my monetary support to a company I'm this pissed at.
The same laws that apply to music should apply here.
It should be legal to make derivative works!
We have sampled electronica and hip-hop. Without samples much of these genres would not exist. There is a band, Girl Talk, who ONLY uses samples for his music. The music industry is SCREAMING to nail this guy, but he's so popular that he fills concert halls with dancing, crazy fun times and has released at least 4 albums. They're really good although it could be argued that he is riding on the popularity of the songs he samples.
The same should go for games. Just keep making derivative works to overwhelm the system. Sooner or later the companies that aren't using ANY of that content will begin to relent. For that matter, ignore the C&D. OOPS! I left a copy of the dev files on CD in a cafe somewhere and someone just *happened* to walk off with it and finish developing the ROM. Sorry!
As the great Andrew Jackson said: It's their law. Now let them enforce it.[sic]
-
Sadly, that's the same thing people said about a Firefly movie, and yet...
There is a long and storied tradition of a huge fan upswell convincing a company to put for money on a project only for it to fail due to lack of actual sales when the time comes.
Except that Firefly hasn't been re-released, and sold like crazy, several times over.
Firefly was only in production for a year or so... Folks have been begging for a sequel to Chrono Trigger for over 10 years - the game originally came out in 1995 on the SNES.
The original sales of Chrono Trigger were good. When they ported it to the Playstation it sold great. When they ported it to the DS it sold great. Even Chrono Cross, which is a terrible game, sold well because it was related to Chrono Trigger.
In this case they've got over 10 years of good sales to back up the decision, not a pile of letters from disgruntled fans.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
Ehhh... depends. I liked VII, but I also liked X and XII. If you go into the later games expecting VII but with better graphics and a different story you will be very disappointed. But if you go into them with a "this is a different game", just like every FF before VII, the new ones are actually pretty good.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Not all the attacks were accompanied by 2 minute cutscenes in FF8, just the summons (and even then, "2 minutes" is a bit of an exaggeration, except perhaps for Eden). Anyway, if you didn't play FF8 just because of that, you missed (IMO) one of the best games in the series, and the most fun I had with an FF game since the first half of FF6 (not the second half though. It completely fell flat in the World of Ruin). Certainly the best soundtrack in the series. If you avoided FF9 too, you also missed a pretty great game (and it's kinda stupid to not even give it a thought just because you didn't like the previous, completely different, game). And if you never played 10 or beyond...well, I can't really fault you for that.
Also, "nothing beyond FF7" better only include main series games. If you never played FFT, you need to turn in your FF fan card and go hang your head in shame.
Even in oxygen, there are no exceptions here. (Go check your local gas stations til you find the canned oxygen containers for $7 a shot)
Wait, so let me get this straight; If Crimson Echoes got released, the devs would get hit with around $150 000 of fines? ...
Can you say pledge drive? If 7 500 people paid $20 each, this would be a non-issue. I know I want to see this game that badly. Though, IANAL and more importantly, IANFA (I Am Not From America), so there might be something I'm overlooking.
Still, it seems like it'd be possible to get the fans to release this one regardless. SE sure as hell ain't.
systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
It annoys me to see people referring to everything past FF7 as "the new ones" but not including FF7 itself in that.
You damn kids need to get off my lawn.
A dedicated cult fanbase does not automatically mean that it's a marketable audience. It does not take many fans to make a fan game, especially if they aren't shooting for commercial polish.
Do 10+ years of good sales mean there's a marketable audience?
The original game was released in 1995. Every time it has been ported it has sold well - even as recently as 2008 when it was ported to the DS.
This isn't some abstract thought exercise... There are 10+ years of sales figures that say yes, people want this.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
A dedicated cult fanbase does not automatically mean that it's a marketable audience. It does not take many fans to make a fan game, especially if they aren't shooting for commercial polish.
The logical solution is to graduate to a shared fanworld supported by the community, all properly held in creative commons license or some manner of copyleft or gnu license that says "Anyone who uses these materials in a for-profit effort grants us the right to use their unique contributions in turn." And fans could self-fund the developer for publishing the game, work for hire.
Everything I said above would have been pie in the sky years ago. It just wouldn't have been possible. It's rapidly becoming more and more possible now. People did it years ago with pencil and paper RPG's and MUD's but I'm talking about the kind of creation that requires serious infusions of capital like game development.
The biggest impediment would be community drama. When a company makes a game, there's a more top-down command structure and what gets produced is what gets produced. There's usually not a big committee arguing over everything. Volunteer and non-profits can be torn apart by the sniping over this stuff, it's human nature.
But I think we're at the point where we can build a new development model here. Right now the games are ultimately fan-supported but it's a rather indirect process. Games have to be pitched to management and they're the ones holding the purse-strings. Anything that gets produced has to satisfy their tastes. Only after the funding is secured and the game developed and published comes the point where the wallets of the fans can have a say. While they can shout and cry, the decision-making process is still behind closed doors and the public is told what they're going to eat and like it.
What I wonder is how likely the prospect is of providing the initial funding from fans, in effect pre-ordering the game before work has even started. There's already fundraising sites in place where people can use credit cards to make contributions and the processor takes a nominal fee off of each transaction. And then we get back to the question of whether a fanbase could hire a developer to create a game according to their specifications, or hire the designer and say "we trust your decisions, make us an RPG with these characters." Wargammers tend to be both obsessive and have money. It would seem like a community-requested and designed game would be a logical step. Hire the developers to make the engine, artists could be commissioned for units, community members design the scenarios. Every five years the engine gets a tune-up to account for improved computers. There's probably more difficulties than I'm allowing for here but it does not seem impossible.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
FFVII is clearly a "new one" but just as clearly not the same as the other polygonal sequels.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why wait? I never heard of this project until after Squenix sent the letter and then it got slashdotted. Perhaps Squenix didn't hear about it until it reached the 98% mark...
Xaotik Designs
It seems that the cease and desist letter may have been a hoax.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134196.html#msg134196
Final Fantasy hasn't put out a turn based FF since FFX. FFXII is not turn based with the gambit system trying to make it more like FFXI in combat. Of course, FF has been for a long time with the Active and Wait combat system, where in wait mode the enemy waits for you to browse your magic/skill/item screens for what you want to use.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I don't see why they just don't release it anyway, if it's a rom hack then release an IPS file and have someone in another country do it, you know some disgruntled Swedish member of the team.
I'd like to see square stop it.
Why don't we put it this way: Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout. The sequel to Chrono Trigger was more popular than Fallout 2. We can reasonably assume that the sequel to the sequel to Chrono Trigger would be at least as popular as Fallout 3... which was a massive release.
You're arguing that Chrono Trigger is in a niche, like Firefly. He's arguing that it is a massively popular mainstream title. As somebody who was actually alive when CT first came out (which I do not suspect you were), I assure you that it wasn't a game only your nerdy friends had heard of. A CT sequel would sell like a Pokemon sequel or a new FF, despite your assertion it would sell like Wild Arms.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Just keep in mind it would be distributed as a "patch" which users have to add to a original ROM. The patch only contains the changes to the ROM.
It's like handling out transparent sheets of paper with a mustache on to apply on copyrighted posters at home.
... release a full install of some newer game like Fallout 3 with a weapons mod, then they also shouldn't be able to release Crono Trigger with some story mods.
Really, the only difference is the age of the game.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
If you break it down, the storyline NEVER made actual sense in Square's RPGs. "Young lad leaves home, meets bizarre friends, makes powerful enemies, saves world." Which game of theirs was that?
Oh right. All of them.
I have a better idea than just "take 10%" or "kill project all together." It's called "offer the makers $1,000,000 to split, take the game, polish it to Squeenix's standards, and release." Most games take a few million to make now, correct? So 1 mill for the makers, another 1 to polish, and you've got a relatively cheap game that people are likely to buy, and if they don't, you're not out as much as you'd otherwise be.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
Last FF game I played was FFVIII, the last one released on the PC. Loved 7, never finished 8 because of the long summons and other games I was playing at the time.
I just bought the Last Remnant on Steam and am liking it so far, although it annoys the shit out of me that you can exploit the BR system to get stupid high stats. I'll probably play it again once I've finished it without doing all the side quests to keep my BR down and then do some power leveling getting 9999HP unions. I wish Square would put out more shit for the PC and not just bullshit MMOs.
Hey, I just said "later games", I didn't say anything about VII not being a new one. But even then, the gameplay has changed between almost every Final Fantasy game, different mechanisms and such for magic, weapons, and so on. Those changes have accelerated with the later games, but you still had a change with every FF game. Acting like the post-VII games are completely different than VII and before is disingenuous (which is what I got from my original post's parent)
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I played FF9, and I hated it, but not for the storyline. I just could stand the combat system where limit breaks never happened when you wanted them, and learning skills was bound to wearing specific pieces of equipment. My opinion is that for a Final Fantasy to be successful you need to both like the story and the system. That's why FF9 fails for me (I disliked the system), it's why FF10 really didn't impress me that much (I disliked the story). FF12 I'm still on the fence over because I dislike the focus on farming, but I love the story. To be honest, I don't think FF7 is the best Final Fantasy. I think it had a good story, a good combat system, and came out at just the right time (launch into 32-bit) to grab a whole new audience, thus running it's popularity. I've met few Final Fantasy fans that have played multiple Final Fantasy games and believe FF7 to be the best/favorite.
Personally I find FF6 to have the best storyline (maybe FF9, but I vaguely remember it), with FF8 in #2-#3. I think FF8 has the best system, because the junction system allows you to let characters of less level be able to keep up with your higher level characters. That's my biggest beef with Final Fantasy. Non-party characters either don't gain experience or gain it at reduced rates, which frequently results in some characters becoming too under-leveled for where the story is, forcing you to go back and grind levels to catch them up. It's made even worse by the systems making which characters you use in combat generic (Sphere Grid, License Grid). Right now in FF12 I have Vaan at 10 or 11. Fran and Balthier are at about 32-33. Basch is at 34. Penelo and Ashe are at 21-22. What's the difference between Penelo, Ashe, Fran, Balthier, and Basch? Basch, Fran, and Balthier don't have as much of the magic augments, can't use staves, and use heavy armor over cloth. Boo friggin hoo.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
Nope. And yep.
You are right about fan-made sequels not equating to sales for an official sequel. Atleast, that's what usually happens.
In this case, it would be true. For a game to create enough emotion and drive within any group of fans to create a sequel for 5 years is nothing short of "Please make an official sequel" being spelled out in Square-Enix's alphabet soup.
The same could be said for Mother 3, and the same said for the Freespace project (and they've been at it since 2002 with only 80% of the original source code).
Games that get "Game of the Year" are among the elite, and when they are abandoned by developers fans want something more. If the developers promised that something more was on the way, then they wouldn't bother making a fan sequel.
Same thing happened with Team Fortress Classic. Had such a huge, devoted fanbase, and Valve was busy making HL2, so a group of map designers got together and started working on Fortress Forever. When Valve finally released their very different version of Team Fortress 2, people flocked to it, and as far as I'm concerned, Fortress Forever is pretty empty right now....more than half left it for TF2.
If a proper mother 3, or freespace, or chrono sequel came out, it would sell. Gaming fanbases that are large are far more powerful at getting shit done than any other fanbase out there.
Why pay for it when you can sue and take possession of the entire derived work FOR FREE?
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Things that are popular on the Internet are (generally) not popular in real life-- Firefly/Serenity, Snakes on a Plane, Howard Dean, Ron Paul, there are a million examples.
The saddest thing is that so many Internet users haven't learned this yet. And some of them are in the position to, for example, heavily promote Snakes on a Plane.
Comment of the year
The worst case is SE losing sales on their own Chrono games because of competition from fan works.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
No, I'm arguing that just because something was popular and still has some fans doesn't automaticly mean that it'll make money today.
And P.S. chief, my younger siblings cut their teeth on Combat catridges, so save the "oh you just aren't old enough to appreciate it" crap. I've been around long enough to see this story more than once, especially in the video game arena.
Can you make money on a revival product for a old favorite? Hell yes. Is it a sure thing? Fuck no. And stop pretending it is simply because you want it to be.
Fans != sure money.
Jumping into a project "just because they fans demand it" is stupid thing to do. Start a project when you have something to put into it, not just to milk it for the last dregs of money you can. And a fan mod isn't "something to put into it".
Actually, until very recently, none of them shared any universe elements in common (no direct sequels), and most have severely altered gameplay mechanics from one to the next. For instance, Final Fantasy VI, you equipped an item that would allow you to gain access to spells as you fought battles, and you'd still have the spells you learned after you equipped something else. Final Fantasy VII, you equipped items that gave you spells and abilities, but only so long as you had that item equipped. Obviously, it was more complicated than that, and it was only one example, but it's a decent one.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
I had been aware of this production for 3 or 4 years now, and while it wouldn't have been another Chrono Trigger I really would've enjoyed playing it. I had always thought this kind of derivative work would be covered by fair use. I guess it doesn't really matter since the Chrono Compendium probably couldn't afford to fight Square on it if they were in the right. For those of you interested there is a longish thread over on ROM Hacks covering this, I only mention it because Compendium admins seem to be dropping in there: http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.0.html
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
In this particular case, the game is a romhack of the orginal. The only thing the modders are really bringing to the picnic is the story, and if that's crap (or not "Square Standard") then they've got nothing. You could rerelease ChronoTrigger as a WiiWare game, and make some cash for relatively little investment, but I doubt you'd be able to make much on "Acclaimed Fan created tribute game" via WiiWare.
And regardless of how holy your cow is, to most of the rest of the world it's just hamburger.
may I take that as my signature?
Hell, people bought the crappy "Chrono Crusade" anime, even though it had nothing to do with the games, on the basis that ADV re-drew the logo to look vaguely similar and encourage brand confusion...
Which is why in an earlier post, I suggested Squeenix purchase it, and polish it up themselves. It wouldn't be that difficult (compared to making a whole new game) to redo some dialogue. Heck, Crono's lines would all stay the same anyways. "..." Just come up with new reasons for going to the dungeons they've already programmed. The fact that CT did well on the DS proves people wouldn't care about use of similar art assets.
However, my original point still stands. How can we judge the story in this romhack, when Squeenix themselves continually churn out the same story with different spikey-haired youths?
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
Have at it; I doubt it was mine originally. It reminds me of something Robert Heinlein would might have said.
retrousb will sell you a cartridge of just about any homebrew ROM you can give them if it one of the mappers they are currently manufacturing. Else you'll have to use the PowerPak which can load ROMs off compactflash and simulate the proper mapper in an FPGA.
There are a dozen or so homebrew cartridges on the RetroZone site already. And new ones show up every month or so.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I don't recall there being anything active about FFX's combat. Rather, the whole thing was completely turn based with the sequence of events represented graphically on one side of the screen. Spells like haste or slow could modify the sequence, but combat would not proceed until either you (or the enemy I guess) made a move. Can't speak for FFX2 as I've never played it...
The difference in tap water and bottled water is primarily the perception of where/who it came from. It never enters the consumer's mind that the water might very well have been bottled from the exact same mains they put theirs from.
You are right, Square does tend to overuse archtypes in their stories. But with the "Written by Square" imprint on them, that makes the bankable. This isn't so for a fan made game.
And honestly, if the stories were that generic, this wouldn't have been an issue, would it? The reason people are interested in the game isn't because it's someone's "Generic JRPG game" that is getting shut down.
It's been a while since I played FFX, so I could be wrong there I guess. X2 was pretty active, if you stood there, the enemy would still attack. It was still menu driven, and the encounters were still random taking you to a battle screen like previous games. XII did away with random encounters from what I could see my girlfriend play at the time, you saw the enemies on the map, and when attacking, never left the map, it was basically just a menu driven action game.
Xaotik Designs
Maybe they're already doing this...
What I'd do, in that position: Investigate the mod, first. If it's a good one, then talk to them about becoming official. Either give them a license or hire them outright.
Of course, you may want to intimidate people. You could send them a C&D along with this, reminding them that if they decline the job, the mod is very well dead.
But, I agree with the summary -- done right, this is more money for them.
And no, I don't think it's covered under fair use. It's a bit like fan fiction -- probably fine if you release it online, anonymously, but you probably wouldn't be able to sell it without a license. (Example: Star wars slash fic vs actual expanded universe.)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I think this is pretty shitty of Square. They aren't currently making any money on the chrono serious, if they are it's a drop in a bucket to someone that big. If they are planning a sequel, this isn't going to hurt sales, the fans will still buy and play their game just as much, I imagine a fan sequel will only help revive interest if anything.
but here is what I think is really shitty. Fans have been working and dedicating their time to this project since 2004, they were 98% of the way finished, days before the release date, and Square chooses this time to tell them NO YOU CAN'T DO IT! Thats not protecting your interest, thats being an asshat. Protecting your interest would have been stopping it right away, at 1% completion. Hey, that's our stuff, you need to stop. You can't tell me with all the copyright lawyers they have running around they just now noticed this. The only thing I can think of is that they purposefully waited till the last minute to crush the dreams of the fans that have been working on this. Thanks Square.
S-E don't have that argument because they released Chrono Cross all by themselves.
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
Likewise giving fan made games like this a nod cheapens the brand.
CT is a good game and letting fans to create sequel isn't going to change that. Of course if you officially approve it, it needs to be polished to some standard, but otherwise you just could let the community live on.
For example, those millions of crappy SMB1 hacks don't make any official Mario game less good or "cheapen the brand". Good projects, like Mother 3 english translation or Super Demo World, however just give more good playable stuff to gamers, which makes them happy.
It's much more satisfying to buy stuff from a company that isn't ass about it's assets.
Well, in IV time stopped as soon as you entered a menu. I'm not sure if this carries-over in the later games.
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.
No evidence? Half-Life is good evidence, by itself. There are others.
Counter-Strike was a fan-made mod. It sells quite well, now.
I can't think of a better way to turn love into hate.
Dear idiot,
Square-Enix owns the trademark. If they don't defend it, they lose it. You can't just start letting other people make sequels to your franchise.
The story summary is biased, misinformed, and stupid, as are most of the comments.
But they're not selling ChronoTrigger commercially anymore, so how would they lose money that way?
I think this shows the mindset of console developers when compared to some of the PC ones. Seems to me PC developers realize that giving their fans the ability to take what they've created and run with it can only open possibilities and draw more people into their games. Quake CTF was a mod, and now it's a fairly standard multi-player part of FPS games. Maybe iD software is on the far end of that spectrum though...
*DrugCheese rants*
Nice argument, but do you have the stats to prove it? If Chrono Trigger is more popular than the Fallout series, how many copies did it sell? A quick internet search doesn't turn up information.
Even then though, that ignores a rather central fact: just because a sequel of Fallout 3 does well in today's market, doesn't mean a sequel to Chrono Trigger will do well in today's market. The market for non MMO western RPGs is much more wide-open than the Japanese RPG market, which is flooded with titles. Fallout 3 is exploiting a hole in the market, while Chrono Trigger might just be another title swimming amongst many. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Chrono Trigger and Fallout, but comparing how successful they would be in today's market is not necessarily a good choice.
I disagree, without hard numbers we can't say anything. Fans have a lot of devotion, games like Gotcha Force are known for their fanbases but they sold terribly. It only takes a very small number of people to form a fanbase, no matter how devoted but it takes a large number to make any money with a sequel. Without numbers (like, say, sales for the DS re-release, hint hint) we can't say how popular a sequel to CT would be. With numbers we could guess.
We also have to account for CT being one of the biggest blockbusters of its time, AFAIK it was developed by a "dream team" of developers and very expensive compared to its contemporaries, it's unlikely that a CT sequel made these days would receive the same level of care and would most likely compare unfavourably to the original.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Why bother to pay them off and polish it up, when they can shut them down? Let's be honest here, if SquareEnix wanted to make a new Chrono Trigger, they would and "buying off" some fan hack is not a good way to do it. The story looked terrible, the graphics looked dated...so what would they have to do to bring it to their standards? Every fucking thing; if they'd have to redo absolutely everything, then why would they pay someone a million dollars to make it?
There's another factor here too; if you pay some fans for a fanhack and then make a new game (or remake their fanhack) then other people will look at it as a way to make money AND ensure their favorite games get sequels. It's a bad idea all around and a bad policy as it invites others to try and ruin your game series and get paid for it. If you were them, would you pay the guys that made the fanhack? Hell no.
10 and 12 were fucking horrid. I'm playing VII now on an emulator while harvesting in Darkfall, and I had my FF cherry popped with VIII. VII VIII and IX were great, VII is easily the best, VIII and IX are tied for epic win though. 12 was nothing more than a 60 dollar macro with a shitty storyline for you to deal with.
And it made its money back and then some on DVD, just like the original series still sells box sets. You have to know your audience, and geeks don't like theaters. You have to deal with asshats talking, playing with their damned cell phones, etc. Geeks tend to have really nice rsoultion monitors or LCD TVs and that is what they watch movies on. That is why if Whedon makes "Faith the Vampire Slayer" or "The Adventures of Spike and Dru" he would be best served by releasing straight to DVD and watching the cash roll in. It is all about knowing the customer and giving them what they want, which sadly S-E obviously doesn't seem to get.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
VII is easily the best
You misspelled VI.
concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
And Team Fortress Classic, which evolved into the absurdly popular Team Fortress 2.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Any idea how much an original Chrono Trigger fetches?
700 yen. The cart works fine, too.
That's apparently why the folk sitting in front of me last night during my first viewing of the new Star Trek were already on their seventh viewing and were debating the merits of Jane Wyatt and Winona Ryder as Amanda Grayson. Oh, wait...
As someone who loved the first Thief and Deus Ex games, it scares me that these people "own them" now. Square is *mostly* a console developer. I fully expect the sequels to be console-ized ports with tiny environments and poor perform... wait... that already happened!
You misspelled IV.
Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
man: no entry for woman in the manual.
"Qua!?"
A) This copyright is 14 years old; it's not worth a thing as far as I'm concerned.
B) Derivative work rights have always been bullshit.
C) How long till this gets "leaked" to all the major trackers?
I have a solution, inspired by TPB's recent idea.
We cause a Distributed Denial of ca$h attack. We start writing drafts and bills to put before our representatives to be voted upon. We start sucking away the money that these companies have by forcing them to lobby against the bills. We flood the system with bills designed to label these companies as dangerous to American Ideals of Freedom and force them to be removed. They'll have to pay out the nose to get these bills struck down, and quite quickly they will run out of money.
And they will get the point when we start calling for their heads or their exile in our submitted bills.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Uuuhhh....according to the wiki "Snakes on a Plane" made more than double its budget in theatrical release alone. That don't count DVD and PPV. If double your money not counting DVD or PPV is a "flop" can I have a flop too?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The group at AGDInteractive has released remakes of King's Quest I, King's Quest II, and Quest for Glory II with the permission of the copyright holders. They pulled it off by approaching the company directly and working out a fan license. The release of those freeware games actually increased the sales for the titles in the same series, it was a boost for the fans and the copyright owners. Another fan-project, King's Quest IX got hit with a cease and desist since they hadn't done their legal homework, but they managed to work out a deal where they changed the name of the game to avoid confusion and could proceed with the permission of the parent company.
It is possible to get stuff like this to work out, and it's often in the best interests of all parties to foster a community that takes an interest in their work. Copyright-holders are also within their legal rights to shut-down fan-fiction being made about their works but it's seldom worth the bad press or harming the community that builds up around such things. But it's crazy to put years of effort into a project without exploring its legality and advertise it before completion so that it can get shut down. The worst part is the same thing already happened to another Chrono Trigger project, a 3d remake of the game called Chrono Trigger resurrection. The lawyers only swooped in when it looked like it had a chance of being completed, apparently like this title
They're all different. The first let you pick your character roster; the second had a deeper storyline; the third advanced your characters through character growth (not levels, but actually abusing your stats i.e. fighting a lot or draining your HP in battle would push those stats up); the fourth I forget what was unique besides the story; the fifth introduced Active Time Battle; the sixthed revised ATB, and had a nice (notably nice) story; the seventh used the Materia Growth system for adjustable character stats; the eighth used the Magic Junctioning system to affect character stats, and introduced a card game, and let you build weapons; the ninth garnered skills and abilities from equipped weapons, and had a different card game; the tenth had Calculated Time Battle, and Blitz Ball; and the twelfth was free-roam with AI-scripting ("Gambit System").
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"And P.S. chief, my younger siblings cut their teeth on Combat catridges [atariage.com], so save the "oh you just aren't old enough to appreciate it" crap. I've been around long enough to see this story more than once, especially in the video game arena."
Nice way to deflect the issue. We still don't have any idea how old you are, your "younger siblings" could very well have inherited that 2600 from your parents for all we know. Judging by the way you speak, I'd peg your age around 22, no where near old enough to be gaming when CT was first released.
buy them? I mean, Square-Enix buying their idea/game and releasing it as what it is, a game made from fans, sell it at a low price, but we all now this won't happen.
My son was partially involved in this (I saw a pdf of the C&D right after they got it).
The kid is making his old man proud. You're not a true programmer unless you get some letter from some lawyer before you turn 21.
It was popular enough that last year's re-release was a smash hit on the Nintendo DS. Nothing but minor tweaks from the original 13-year-old supernintendo rom, and it sold very well. I love Firefly, but it was always niche. CT was never niche, and it's popularity has repeatedly and recently been demonstrated to still be significant and mainstream.
It was re-released in 2008. If it hadn't been, I'm not sure they would have been as eager to send out a C&D.
I try to feel sympathy but I cant. In most cases, fan games are crap, and often create storylines that are about as engaging as watching grass grow, and full of fandom cliches.
Square-Enix isnt bad for scorning the fans. I've seen other companies kow-tow to fanboys and watched entire game series go to complete shit.
I learned long ago "fandoms" are often the death of things because they're prone to groupthink. Only out of groupthink can you get results where the game's original story is in fact, totally wrong because the main character is gay and wants to have sex with all the other male characters (or female) and wants to really do things with the antagonist of the series too. I'm not stretching things with that either. Hell there are earthbound fans that insist that the series' main antagonist during the first 2 games is actually female, and that the game is wrong, and that this other antagonist who is fat and greedy is actually skinny and has known the antagonist their whole lives and have sex with each other. and insists that's the reality of the games.
Playing the games says otherwise. Also notice a pattern forming with fan based cliches?
Yeah I don't blame square enix at all.
It's a rom hack. I can explain what happened here very easily:
1. They were never going to finish it.
2. They make up an excuse that isn't "we suck" or "we lied".
3. Profit!
Remember that Ocarina of Time 2D game? Of course you do! Lots of hype, never existed beyond a few screenshots. It's easy to mock something up that looks good, infinitely harder to spend the thousand+ hours it takes to follow through.
Just look at DNF..
That was something I said in this exact thread already. If you want to continue to argue the point I wasn't making, please continue. Just don't feel like you are actually adding anything to this.
I think the argument for killing these sort of projects in order to protect your IP has long been dis-proven. Valve is the most potent example, their engine is used for mods, their own IP is used to make high quality videos, and much more. They don't only allow this, but embrace it and foster it. And it has made them one of the most important and successful gaming companies out there. How about the Mega Man "Mega Ran" remix? That was embraced and both parties benefited. Should Square allow people to use their IP willy-nilly? No. But they could embrace it, and control it to some extent. Foster a community around their IP. A response as drastic as this is just bad PR over an issue that was in no way going to deprive them of sales nor allow others to profit from their IP and tech. Bad move Square, get with the times.
Thats how Disney thinks about Mickey Mouse as well...
However they probably do own the equipment to copy their Playstation CD to PC, which just requires a CD-ROM drive. Curious that you forgot to mention that.
I forgot to mention the PlayStation version because I would be surprised if this were made available as a patch against the PlayStation version, rather than only against the Super NES version.
Which immediately raises the question, if nobody would buy it how is SE losing sales because of this game? They should ignore it since it at least keeps the hype up and harassing the fans only antagonizes your customers.
But... the future refused to change.
And THAT's the point I'm arguing. Firefly is just one example of many niche products that THIS IS NOT LIKE, because it's not a niche.
90% of the people you bump into today would look at you in bewilderment if you asked them what Chrono Trigger was, much less whether they were happy about its treatment on the DS vs. the PS1 or the SNES versions.
It is extremely niche. It was a party based pseudo real-time JRPG that was released over a decade ago for a console that was already a year or so away from being obsolete. It had one real sequel, which was mostly critically panned, and then disappeared from the minds of everyone BUT its fans.
You simply hang in a crowd in which this particular niche is popular enough that you can be fooled into thinking its mainstream.
Is it a good game? Hell yes. I was in college when it came out and between then and a few years later when I used to kill 'salary time' at work playing it in an emulator it's probably second or third on the list of games I've spent the most time playing total in my life (Dungeon Master and Sundog for the ST being the first and contender for second place respectively). But it is NOT main stream. It's not even within the same order of magnitude of being mainstream. You'd have a better shot at telling me Fallout or System Shock were mainstream. At least those were PC games back when 'everyone' was playing PC games in addition to consoles as opposed to today where PC gaming is almost the fourth console in the console wars.
Does it deserve another shot? Hell yes.
But, that doesn't equate to a new Chrono installment being a sure fire win. In fact, the longer a series lies fallow the easier it is to fuck up the revival. Why do you think sequels in the movie business are such iffy propositions?
I stand corrected. ...
*goes to Amazon with a credit card handy*
I prefer VII to the SNES games :/
I bought the SNES cart (no manuals, boxes, or anything extra) from the local Goodwill for $2.99 a few months ago. Also bought Illusion of Gaia and Secret of Evermore for $2.99 each along with it. :3
Nintendo at least seems to think Mother 3 would be a flop in the "west". Hell, look at the history, from the very beginning the fan translators stated they'd stop their efforts if Nintendo either told them to, or if an official translation was announced. Only thing that came from Nintendo was confirmation that they wouldn't translate the game in the near future which convinced a second translation group to emerge (the two later merged). Even now when Nintendo should have a very good idea of the game's demand in the English market, and the success of the DSi (which would allow for virtual downloads) Nintendo still remains mute, and hasn't even sent a C&D to http://mother3.fobby.net/ . I think it's safe to say that either the game is still a very niche that wouldn't make a profit, or Nintendo suddenly stopped liking money. Well, I guess its also possible Nintendo thinks Mother 3 would make money, but considers other projects would be more profitable
We're a bunch of angry nerds, we just need to organize and DDOS Square-Enix into oblivion.
I suggest you go create them ASAP.
"No, I'm arguing that just because something was popular and still has some fans doesn't automaticly mean that it'll make money today."
Nothing automatically makes money, but this one is a pretty good bet. Alas, the only ones able to make the bet are Square enix, and for whatever reason they have apparently chosen not to. That said, as other posters already pointed out, CT has made decent money in the past couple of years despite only being released as a port.
"And P.S. chief, my younger siblings cut their teeth on Combat catridges, so save the "oh you just aren't old enough to appreciate it" crap. I've been around long enough to see this story more than once, especially in the video game arena."
Good for you. Want a cookie?
"Can you make money on a revival product for a old favorite? Hell yes. Is it a sure thing? Fuck no. And stop pretending it is simply because you want it to be."
Like above: nothing is a sure thing, nothing is guaranteed to make money. I don't know what you have against a CT sequel, and I don't much care, but maybe you should be focusing on that rather than claiming there isn't any money to be made on one. Oh, and I would much rather there not be a sequel and instead the talent were put into brand new ideas. I also don't particularly care for jRPGs in general. But I guess it's much easier to assume that I personally want it to come out than that you might be wrong.
"Jumping into a project "just because they fans demand it" is stupid thing to do. Start a project when you have something to put into it, not just to milk it for the last dregs of money you can. And a fan mod isn't "something to put into it"."
On this I agree, but really... we both know that's not how things work. If it were, they would only release Madden games every 3-5 years (if that), nobody would be making crappy movie-based games, and frankly the whole entertainment industry would go tits up with nothing but indy films with the lack of fan service dregs. Here in reality, fan demand is probably a much better reason than "because the producer's niece wants it", and lord knows we get enough of the latter. If there are enough fans out there to support multiple near-complete sequel projects (keeping in mind that only a tiny fraction of fans would even have the expertise to help create such a thing, let alone also have the time, vision or will to do so), it really does indicate that maybe there's a large fan-base out there waiting for a sequel.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Likewise giving fan made games like this a nod cheapens the brand.
Does turning a blind eye to the fan made games cheapen the brand?
On another note, I don't know much about Japanese culture but isn't making fan fiction knockoffs of things practically legal over there? I hear that Dojinshi (fan fiction comic books based on copyrighted characters) is so ubiquitous, there are actually large conventions for them [citation].
Can you make money on a revival product for a old favorite? Hell yes. Is it a sure thing? Fuck no.
Star Trek
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
Fan made games in no way "cheapen the brand". If you've read too much Harry Potter fanfiction, that is your problem.
I've got nothing against a sequel. What I'm against is the angsty douchery people spout when a company that actually makes the calls decides not to pursue an opportunity to continue a franchise.
"They are giving the middle finger to the fans, it's like they don't care about us at all!"
"WTF, If they released a new sequel to this, it'd sell better than Pokemon! They are idiots! Everyone would buy it!"
and etc.
Yes, we all know YOU (in the generic sense) would like a sequel. That still doesn't mean the company sees it as a surefire profit maker or that they consider it the best use of their resources. Sometimes it just doesn't make business sense, it just doesn't make sense to spend a dollar to make a buck fifty, when you could otherwise spend it to make a ten spot.
You're using the wrong characters it is FFT.
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
Wait, wait, wait... you enjoyed Chrono Cross? I bought it and couldn't handle how much I hated it. Trigger was phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. But Cross? I guess when I saw the guy that attacks things by strumming a guitar I lost it. No thanks. I think I got an hour in but I detested playing games on the PSOne so much because of load times that I rarely played through a game.
And for reference, I played the hell out of Gran Turismo and one of the Wing Commander clones (I forget the name) despite the agonizing load times.
I hate load times. The days of the PSOne were frustrating and painful....
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
On the other side of the coin, Square could have simply realized that a move like this would generate neutral publicity at best.
If you were Square Enix, would you make such a move before it was necessary and risk the PR fallout for something that may have never gone through to completion anyway?
I think not.
Nuff said.
perhaps there wouldn't be so much angsty douchery if the company in question wasn't simultaneously refusing to make a sequel (hey, lots of games don't get sequels, it happens, people do move on) AND going out of their way to crush entirely non-profit fan driven unofficial sequels. If they don't see enough money in making a sequel anyway, then why are they wasting their time and money on shutting down what amounts to elaborate fanfic? That's why you see the rage and whining.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Because the only thing a fan driven sequel could do is kill the market for an official one?
It's either good and thus picked up by the fanbase as 'we really wish it'd be cannon' and then the company has to deal with the fact that if they ever do a sequel they have to avoid anything brought up in it or deal with lawsuits for 'uncompensated work' or the fan driven sequel sucks balls and lowers overall interest in the franchise.
I see rage and whining because people don't like not getting their way. Period. You can make up as many 'just reasons' for this, but the pure and unadulterated fact of the matter is that the right to decide what does and doesn't get made in relation to a franchise is the franchise owner.
It's not as if they are locking up the franchise and preventing it from being made, they've republished the original game for you how many times now? For fuck's sake, they just did a DS version a little over half a year ago.
"Because the only thing a fan driven sequel could do is kill the market for an official one?"
Which, as you would claim, doesn't exist. If there is a market to kill, then your point falls apart.
"It's either good and thus picked up by the fanbase as 'we really wish it'd be cannon' and then the company has to deal with the fact that if they ever do a sequel they have to avoid anything brought up in it or deal with lawsuits for 'uncompensated work' or the fan driven sequel sucks balls and lowers overall interest in the franchise."
In the case of the former, that's actually quite easy: they just don't mention it. Or, hell, they could just hire some of the fan writers to work on the official sequel, seems like a good idea if they did such a great job the first time. In the case of the latter: then you do precisely what you've been doing... not much. It also seems unlikely that any fallout would hit the actual franchise, it would just make the fan-driven sequel creators look dumb.
"I see rage and whining because people don't like not getting their way. Period. You can make up as many 'just reasons' for this, but the pure and unadulterated fact of the matter is that the right to decide what does and doesn't get made in relation to a franchise is the franchise owner."
Sure they do, and the fans reserve the right to think the franchise owner sucks. All sorts of people make decisions that you or I disagree with but have no direct say in, that doesn't mean there is some directive to STFU about it if we really feel strongly about it, even if we never will get our way. If the sight of people complaining because there is no CT sequel bothers you so badly... why don't you just avoid sites/forums/stories about it? Nobody is actually forcing you to listen, so don't. Problem solved. unless, of course, what you really want is to bitch about other people bitching, which just makes you an idiot.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.