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Chinese Employee Loses iPhone Prototype, Kills Self
tlhIngan writes "Physical intimidation of a Foxconn employee, 25 year-old Sun Danyong, and a possibly-illegal search of his house may have led to suicide after an iPhone prototype in his possession was lost. Foxconn is Apple's long-time manufacturing partner for the iPhone. Entrusted with 16 iPhone prototypes, Danyong discovered that one was missing and searched the factory for it. When it didn't turn up, he reported the incident to his boss, who ordered his apartment searched. There are reports of physical intimidation by Foxconn security personnel. This ended tragically on Thursday at 3 AM, when Danyong jumped from his apartment building to his death." VentureBeat notes that "Apple exerts immense pressure on its business partners [to] help it maintain secrecy." An Apple spokesperson said this to CNet: "We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee, and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death. We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
There's an app for that...
...probably the only way he could save his family from being threatened.
Illegal searches, intimidation, then "suicide"... Uh huh... yeah...
and someone saw that?
Your bosses were mean to you: sue them, find another job, learn to live with it.
Yes, because that works so well in China, right?
Get some fucking compassion, idiot.
There is now another liver available for transplant.
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
They also sent goonsquads over to worker's houses to search for stolen parts and stuff.
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect"
Because nothing says dignity and respect like working in a sweatshop and being paid pennies an hour...
A-Bomb
Why not? Believe it or not people are able to sue when they are harmed by somebody, even in China.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
When it didn't turn up, he reported the incident to his boss, who ordered his apartment searched. There are reports of physical intimidation by Foxconn security personnel.
The question is, will this lead to companies being less, or more likely to look upon Foxconn positively when considering an OEM who will keep their new prototype under wraps?
"The iPhone 4 - it's to die for!"
I mean, you're completely right... So it seems kind of unlikely that someone would kill themselves over a phone.
Deleted
So tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
right, "suicide".
weinersmith
It depends on whether or not they get the prototype back, doesn't it?
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
This is the high pressure culture of secrecy taken to its logical conclusion in a country with little worker protection. I highly doubt Apple has any legal responsibility in this, but they do share a portion of the moral culpability along with the management of Foxconn. Did the senior management of Foxconn push the man out a window? No, but they created the corporate culture in which it happened. Likewise, Apple have worked with Foxconn for years now; they created the high pressure culture of secrecy and then turned a blind eye to how Foxconn enforces it.
It give me the creeps knowing how Apple does business. It is obvious that this busniess partner is evil and they continue to work with them.
Hah! Like Apple treats its iphone app developers ?
I as well like to live in your sugar coated world
People dying for this pease of crap ? Yachhh!
That depends. Is the company more concerned about securing a $2B per quarter revenues from its technology or about the $5k court settlement that it'll ultimately be required to pay somewhere in Asia?
Why not? Believe it or not people are able to sue when they are harmed by somebody, even in China.
You realize that families who lost their children as a direct result of incompetence and negligence haven't even been able to seek redress under the Chinese system? You really think some poor bastard working for an industrial conglomerate stands a chance? I think you've wandered away from the reservation on this one....
Parents devastated at the loss of sons and daughters, most born under China's strict "one couple, one child" family planning policy, have sought a government accounting and a proper explanation as to why so many schools fell down.
Police and local officials have blocked parents of the dead children from staging protests to seek information. An Amnesty International report this week chronicles instances in which parents were detained by police while seeking answers from courts.
Lawyers who took on such cases came under pressure to drop their involvement.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Are you factoring in the culture in this case? Honor means a lot to Asians. For them, failure of this magnitude may have only one acceptable response: seppuku, or the equivalent for the locale. It may seem a little drastic for Americans - is a product or company worth that much? - but we're obviously, and thankfully, not the model for every society.
Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
This guy in china is a perfect example of such wonderful Chinese engineering.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
I always equated that more with Japanese culture than Chinese.
New Apple Slogan:
iPhone, worth dying for...
Either he was going to do it or Apple was going to do it, at least he saved himself from the torture...unless Apple did do it and made it look like a suicide.
Just because you are wrong and I called you out on it doesn't mean I am a Troll.
Not sure how illegal a search of the guy's apartment would be if they own the place.
I seem to remember an article on here about foxconn "city", everyone ate,worked and lived on the foxconn campus.
That's an interesting question. This Digitimes article published the day before he died, but after he had reported the loss, claims that Apple and Sony are cutting back on Foxconn orders, while Dell, Asustek, and HP are climbing on board.
apple needs to make them to fallow china labor and other laws as well going beyond them and not working people to death.
I should add that the timing make it almost impossible that any of those companies knew about the loss when making their decisions. But it will be interesting to see if anything changes.
I am a PC. :)
iDied
The idea of ritual suicide in the face of failure confusing and slightly contradicting to me especially given Japanese culture's emphasis of 'triumph over adversity'. Japanese culture seems to love watching people try to overcome things that are almost impossible and/or unbearable.
As an example, have you ever seen 'Ninja Warrior'? Basically, it's like 'Wipeout' on NBC only a million times more difficult. I've watched 'Ninja Warrior' dozens of times and only seen someone complete the final course once; one person out of literally hundreds of competitors. They've had Olympic gymnasts on the show not even make it to the final round. The audience cheers on the failures almost as much as the success, because the failures gave it everything even though they had to know they probably weren't going to make it.
How is it that a culture that cheers on the underdog and loves it when people try in spite of horrible odds also finds honor in taking your own life when faced with a difficult situation?
This is just sad. You know the security was just all over the guy saying "you're going to lose your job, never find work again, you will be sued, lose your house, and your wife/girlfriend will leave you too!" No doubt they probably shoved him around trying to intimidate him. If they were so concerned about their prototypes they'd remotely wipe them, RFID, Lojack etc. etc. Yeah the guy may have misplaced it but mistakes occasionally happen. Doc the guy the price of the phone from his pay and be done with it. If it turns up on some blog somewhere, then go after him for non disclosure. Still, I can never understand suicide, perhaps the guy had other issues and this just was the tipping point.
Namaste
After what the Chinese did to him a while back, I'm sure Jack will avenge this guy's death. Chloe, download the schematics to Foxconn to my PDA and find me a way in!
RIP, Mr Sun. Congratulations to whatever you had achieved. Wish you happiness in the other world. You just left a cold blooded world where well educated people joking about a hard working person's death.
Imagine after his death they discover the phone was in his jacket pocket?
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
Hell, someone had to die for Steve Jobs to get a liver.
I don't like playing cultural imperialist, but something about current Asian cultures seems to me to be broken: this isn't exactly the first suicide of its sort, or even an uncommon phenomenon, just one of the more high-profile cases (since it's Apple, and a senior guy). Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009)
Um, this wasn't a suicide. And it's a nice bit of cultural stereotyping to picture asian people happily falling on their swords. It is deeply insulting (or you're deeply stupid) to think that someone of any culture would commit suicide just for losing / selling a production prototype.
Funny thing is, we know exactly where it went- it popped up on ebay recently and was big news. It was also dead as a doornail- nobody could load firmware onto it. Yeah, it was a fuckup, but Apple could easily recover that phone if they wanted to, either legally or by simply saying "please", or giving the seller what he paid for it (unlikely.)
Which do you think is more likely? That he was riddled with guilt over the loss of a prototype worth maybe a few hundred dollars in parts and little intellectual property value (since there are millions of copies in the world?) and jumped....or was pushed over the balcony ledge by a bunch of company goons who were told to make an example of him to employees, with a public story that "our employees are so dedicated to your security, they'll..."? And really, how impartial do you think the investigation is going to be? In China, these companies own and run entire cities that make Mall of America look like a strip-mall. They don't even need to pay off the police- they already employ them.
Please help metamoderate.
Jesus Christ Kid! Wake up and smell the Coffee! It's the Noughties! I'm not paying you to think about flower power and peace among the animals.
Consider this mac: Supply and Demand!! If there's one thing that human history has taught us, it's that people are cheap, but profits are forever. You know how many guys like this guy there are? You know how many iPhone prototypes there are? You don't need to do a lot 'a math to see how this is gonna work out. Man, I could tell you stories about coffee beans and Nicaraguans in the 80's. Fucking great times!
Holy shit! The only time you need to you to jump out a window is when the stock is at 5c and your pretty sure the guy is like, your spitting image. The lesson here is that if the pressure is this fucking high, you need a safety valve, otherwise known as a fall guy. In fact, I'm betting this guy was that guy! Sweet play.
You know, you should be thinking about other people. You should be thinking about how to make money off of 'em, or else get them outta your way. You see a bus load of traumatised kids. I see a several lifetimes worth of prescription medication sales. You see tragedy, I see opportunity.
Shit happens, deal with it. It's all part of the game. Wen just bought a new sports car. Hu just sealed the Intel deal. Yao just jumped out of ten story window. Who cares! It's all just gossip material to spend over Espresso lattes. The second you stop to moralise over rights, wrongs, lifes, deaths; is the second you stop making money. You gotta straighten those suspenders, up the sperm count on the deal, and keep kickin' ass, so people know your the hardest asshole around.
Prime example, Steve fucking Jobs. Guy's such a ball buster that he's got subcontractors breakin' down apartment doors and throwing suckers outta windows just to keep the latest indigo and cyan iDink case covers an international fucking secret. And people still think he's Michael Jackson! You will never have those stones.
So, Put it all on AAPL, Bernanke's got the kettle on. And get yourself a dog!
May the Maths Be with you!
Gravity combined with sudden negative acceleration resulting from the Earth being in the way.
Hope is the currency of fools
Or was he helped out the window?
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
Now why are we talking about this when this event occurred in China? (not Japan)
The troll with karma.
I guess the war still haunts the Chinese. Steve Jobs is said to be heartbroken... right, of his lost prototype !!
More to the point, being roughed up by goons, interrogated, and having your house illegally searched are pretty stressful across all cultures...
Jumped or pushed?
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
Yeah right. Thats why Apple employs chinese workers who fear for their lives. Chinese labor is employed because its virtually slave labor. Its cheap, easily controlled, and cut throat business practices allow them to dispose of workers at will.
Either this guy was a spy, or he made an honest mistake. Whatever the case may be, its said that he took his life.
I still find it sick that Apple can say they require their suppliers to treat workers with dignity and respect in one breathe, but in practice they really do not care because look at who they employ!
Why isn't the difference in workers' rights and environmental abuse priced into free trade agreements?
I have no problem with work going to China, as long as the employers there also have to pay for health care, disability, U.S. minimum wages, and safe workplace enforcement; cannot dump their waste into rivers, etc.
Without those restrictions, U.S. workers cannot hope to compete based on price.
So work done in those countries, and items manufactured in those countries, should probably incur tariffs big enough to compensate for all those other disparities.
What a waste of a human life over a worthless piece of electronics. Sad
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
I would like to see the Apple policy that states that. I think its funny when these new
policies magically appear in sound bites but not on paper.
Also love it when I hear.
1. Safety is our #1 priority
2. Our customers are our #1 priority
3. Are employees are our #1 priority
4. Are shareholders are our #1 priority
All four of these statements were issued by the company you work for over the past year.
We are capitalists - Its about the money, honey - for the CEO first, then the shareholders - dont buy the b.s. for a second
China has their Yuan fixed to the dollar, rather than allowing it to float freely. If you take any value around GDP in China (or India) of a common money, then it is total nonsense. As it is, many economist think that the Yuan should be 300-400% higher (i.e. about 1.5-2 yuan/dollar instead of the 7 yuan / dollar that the run).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Beyond what WaxHeLL said (this is China, not Japan, very different culture and values even if there is historic influence), there's also the fact that your knowledge of Japanese culture is pretty superficial. Taking your own life "when faced with a difficult situation" without further qualifiers is generally viewed about as poorly as it is in the US; it's specifically in cases of failures that are unable to be remedied and are highly troublesome for others (especially large numbers of others) where the cultural acceptance kicks in.
I wonder why their rate is so high.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It would certainly send a message to all other employees to not be careless.
It is curious that nobody here has stopped to mention what influence China's notorious lack of respect for IP law might have to do with this incident. I'm not a huge fan of patents and the like, and there are plenty of ways for large, well-funded corporations to end-run patents in "the West", but if one were to lose an iPhone prototype in the United States, one would reasonably assume that it would be difficult for anyone to do anything meaningful with it without some serious reverse-engineering (unless someone from China stole it and took it overseas). Sure, it would be a problem, but there would be a lot of hoops for the tech thieves to jump through before they could make bank on their crime. If you could prove that they stole the thing and used it for their own commercial success, you could probably sue them anyway, and you might even win years down the line (bring your warchest).
Now imagine losing a valuable prototype of an unreleased product in China. How it got lost and to whom (in the event of a theft) would have everything to do with whether or not the prototype could be recovered. In the event of a theft, the thief's backers and influence with the government would have everything to do with whether or not the stolen unit could be used for the purpose of manufacturing cheap knock-offs with release dates comparable to the real product. Foxconn has to know this and had to have been operating under the assumption that the prototype might have fallen into the hands of a well-connected rival that could have (and would have) mass-produced units based off the prototype, which is something neither Apple nor Foxconn would have liked very much. Naturally they would go to every effort to keep a prototype out of "enemy" hands since they know their production models will be copied as soon as they hit store shelves anyway; much of their profit will come from the lead time they get on their cloner competition (it would take a few months to ramp up production of a rip-off). That lead time is all you really get before the cloners flood the market (at least domestically if not internationally). Losing a prototype cuts down on your lead time. In the case of the iPhone prototype, by how much, we do not know. A hasty cloner willing to make a sloppy release might be able to roll out knock-offs before the actual iPhone product itself hits the market, giving people the option to buy a potentially-buggy pre-release version of the product before the actual product hits shelves. Apple wouldn't like that very much, especially not if the knock-offs found their way onto eBay and beyond. Foxconn wouldn't like that much either.
Not that any of the above justifies roughing the guy up or pushing him towards suicide, but seriously, this whole issue has to be viewed in the proper light. Foxconn and Apple can't just sue whoever turns up with the prototype. In all likelihood, they will never see it again until millions of units just like it show up in Chinese warehouses.
If Foxconn had any reasonable expectation of being able to file suit against a well-heeled competitor who magically turned up with the prototype and began furiously cranking out knock-off products, maybe they wouldn't have tormented the poor soul allegedly responsible for losing the prototype. Oh sure, being able to rip off anyone's tech is all fun and games when you're poaching the tech from foreign competitors, but when cloners start cannibalizing the creations of their domestic neighbors, things aren't so fun anymore. At least, not for the Chinese, and especially not for that one poor schmuck to whom Foxconn entrusted iPhone prototypes.
I can imagine the pressure on the company after losing the prototype and the employee himself but nothing can be bad enough to commit suicide. This is tragic
that's the japs, dude.
Asian isn't a culture. The remark above is quite obtuse and the mere fact of using a Japanese term to address an incident in China is ignorant at best.
...shit. They say enough to cover their asses and appear caring. Everything is a buisness, and buisness is cold.
...physical intimidation..... ... he 'jumped' from a building to his death...
sounds more like mob/thug intimidation and ending to me....
Apple is gangsta, I just didn't think they would send goons to kill a man over a prototype.
5. When you next decide to throw yourself from a building, don't superglue the hands of three polo-knecked thugs to your shoulders, abdomen and thighs.
"Honor" for "Asians"? Which, of the many Asian cultures, are you talking about? If Japan, then sure, to some extent this is the case. It was more so in years past, but hey, things change.
In China, I'm not so sure. I'm not as familiar with Chinese cultural mores, not having lived there, but everything I've read suggests that "seppuku" (which, incidentally, is a Japanese word) is much less of a popular out than it is/was in Japan. I bring up the significant possibility that Sun Danyong's death might not have been suicide at all, but even if it were, I strongly suspect that it was motivated less by ideas of honor than it was by ideas of being completely and royally screwed -- i.e., desperation, not clearing one's name so much as escaping a terrible situation.
As the South Korean character Captain Sam Pak says in a M*A*S*H episode, "Suicide? That's the Japanese. We don't do that schtick." (Ironically, the part was played by the late Japanese-American actor Pat Morita.)
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
... only happens in China.
an hero?
How many Foxconn security employees does it take to push an engineer out a window?
None, he jumped.
Just say'n.
In other words,
If I can help Apple deliver new iPhone models by defenestration of brown or yellow people, then that's what I'm going to fucking do.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Quote: An Apple spokesperson said this to CNet: "We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee, and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death. We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect." I am so so so so so so so sad someone died... I know what will cheer you up Steve... MONEY FIGHT !!!! ha ha ha ha ha... I feel better now.
I hear it wasn't even the fall that killed him, it was the beating he took from Jobs on the phone before he jumped that did the damage, after all his apartment was on the first floor.
... with dignity and respect.
Just like Steve Jobs does!
Scientia est Potentia
Actually most Japanese would also view this as a drastic response but with a little more contempt for the person who killed themselves than Americans are used to because it disrupts their lives. It's considered a desperate and inconsiderate act, especially for someone who isn't even a well known public figure, (the rare case where honor might even be considered and even then it's mostly only going to be a few right wing lunatics that cheer for you). The motivation is now more of a frowned upon social problem as opposed to some valiant effort to maintain honor that everyone accepts. If you want to consider modern Japanese culture then the extreme pressures of society and the workplace are the motivation.
I haven't read all of the posts yet, but one solution seems to have slipped the collective mind.
Maybe he DID steal it, the bullying was warranted, and he killed himself to avoid going to jail.... ...I'm just sayin....
Your top five are not in Asia. You may not think of it as such, but Kazakhstan is most definitely an Asian country.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Steve can has your liver!
Goes to show you, material objects are more important than human life. The US supports this style of business and this style of government. Spin it anyway you want. Your tax dollars supported the people that support the foreign policy that supported the social enviroment that drove the force that killed this guy.
As long as it is is not illegal, Apple has no interesting in moral issues.
Now before the apple fanbois start jumping up and down about capitalism and related bullshit - fuck off. Just because they are out there to make money does not mean they have to make it without considering moral or ethical side of it. I know some small and big business who do it right. But wait - most of them do it wrong, so Apple can do it too, right?
It's not for no reason I have stopped buying Apple products - be it their close culture and locked products, they disdain to the concept of green (yeah, go ahead, label me a hippie), and last but not least, all the fanbois who would keep on overlooking all these and keep this motherfuckers in the game.
You're an up and coming engineer, you have a place of respect and admiration in society, you have a good life, lots of friends and co-workers.
Then all of a sudden you make a mistake (or maybe you're just the victim of a crime), the people you thought were your friends turn on you, accuse you, denounce you, you lose your job. Your whole life falls apart.
A couple of Madoff's victims killed themselves.
People often commit suicide here when they get arrested. That's why they take away shoelaces and belts.
This is the most racist thing on this page at the moment. Because he doesn't even know it is.
Must have fallen between the cushions.
Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
Just so you know, Foxconn has made non-Apple and non-Sony boards for a while. Dell has been using them for a couple years (though they might be upping their orders if the other two are cutting back and leaving open production capacity).
Perhaps this is another example of cultural imperialism but this is rare anywhere in the world and must be unheard of in China.
The only thing that seems to make most employers treat their staff that way is a legal requirement. Even that doesn't always work.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
I'm interested in the backstory - did a higher percentage of schools fall than other buildings, or what? If the buildings were indeed within the "entire towns and villages that disappeared", how does the reporter manage to justify her rather unsubtle implications that the government all but killed those children?
Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
That should be followed with:
"But then we turn our heads to it because we know we can't enforce dignity and respect on another culture"
Ritual suicide isn't a way out of a difficult situation, or giving up in the face of a challenge.
I think your mistake is the impression that external observers despise failure and pressure someone into suicide. That is not the case. It's acknowledgement that there is nothing you could do to make up for your failure. It's a voluntary offering of your own life as the most sincere apology possible and the ultimate show of respect for those you've wronged.
Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
There is now another liver available for transplant.
Tasteless and Insensitive....
Your bosses were mean to you: sue them, find another job, learn to live with it.
Yes, because that works so well in China, right?
Get some fucking compassion, idiot.
Well Said. Lack of compassion causes harm to everything and everyone.... and CAN cause suicides too... people should think about compassion, before they act or say anything.
Ohh ya, he ahh... "jumped", said chinese official....who also convieniently witnessed the suicide from the balcony of the very apartment he jumped from! Now that witness could not be mistaken, being so close!
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
to the prices in the economy you live in.
While I do not deny or accuse Foxconn of being a sweatshop people here need to quit judging incomes by amounts paid in their own countries. This is no different than declaring all poor the same, whereas in the US poor can mean you have shelter, more than one TV, a cell phone, and even a car.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Yes, more schools than anything else fell down because they were built cheaply, quickly and with corners cut, so they pretty much all collapsed very badly. Other buildings were severely damaged, but there was an appalling loss of life in schools across the area due to the school buildings in particular being deathtraps.
Then why build your product in China?
What's next, Apple, making MacBooks in rural Iran?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Nice cultural bigotry. I suppose you think all Asian women live only to serve their men. and all Asian kids are great at math. I'd love to hear your take on which ethnic group runs the best pawnshops.
You are welcome on my lawn.
the poor guy would not jump from the building, he would buy a gun, take it to his office, kill bunch of random people who happen to be there, and then kill himself.. mod me down all you like, but in a few months it will be office shooting again somewhere, as it always have been.
-turn on humor mode please-
OK, all you folks out there - rush out to buy a new $500 phone, give a DNA sample, sign a four year contract to get your new iBlood phone!
-OK, now turn it off-
This is sad. I have to have some dark humor here because the loss of a life over a phone prototype is just too tragic otherwise. What an utter waste.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
> Apple would have killed him had he not killed himself, but Apple probably would have tortured him first in attempt to find the iPhone he lost.
Sad thing is, your comment isn't flamebait.
Apple is responsible for his death, no matter what PR their machine puts out it isn't a secret what working conditions there are like. Intimidating someone into suicide is just as much of a murder as stabbing them yourself.
in other news. . .
We all know that the chinese and japanese have been historically very nice to eachother!
(What's sad is I first learned of their mutual hatred for eachother through a bruce lee movie.)
I just have a hard time having much sympathy for people that kill or try to kill themselves. Everyone alive realizes at some point that life is painful, the few that give up on life should not be looked upon with any admiration. I've been called mean and I suppose I am.
I don't see what the big deal is of a missing apple prototype, I've got a good idea what it will be like having never witnessed the prototype: It will be aesthetically pleasing yet ergonomically a nightmare to operate.
The sky is an eerie dark shade of brightness right here, near but not under the path of the current solar eclipse, high in the sky, but as if the brightness setting of a monitor has been turned right down, none of the hue of sunset. I believe this makes a good analogy to the GP's point.
...someone will open a farm, raise the cows (cruelty free), get the leather....
You can have cruelty-free or you can have leather. Pick one, you don't get them both.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
Our customers on the other hand...
I'm afraid you're being pretty naive, my friend. Even here in the United States the chances of you being successful and winning a judgement in a wrongful termination suit are miniscule. In a totalitarian state like China, they'd be infinitesimal, and that's assuming that the government didn't go ahead and toss you in a jail cell for a few years just for having the temerity of bringing the suit in the first place.
This ain't rocket surgery.
Industrial espionage? How much is now in his bank account? Did he jump without anyone's assistance?
That they will do anything that it takes to prevent this from happening again.
The poor guy was probably subjected to all kinds of threats and abuse; the inevitable result of a company like Apple that tries to maintain absolute secrecy of it products, while farming out the work to sweat shops, where they products are worth many times the wages of the workers...
Suicide is always a terribly sad thing, even if its one of ~1.3 Billion people on the other side of the world.
---
Quoting a certain Hollywood flick --
Son, we live in a world that has (iPhones) and those (iPhones) need to be guarded by (corporate thugs). Who's gonna do it? You? You, (Mr. I want my iPhone)? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for (Sun Danyong) and curse (Foxconn); you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that (Sun Danyong's) death, while tragic, probably saved (Apple) and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves (western capitalism). You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about (on) parties (lines) you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like (patents), (trade secrets), (copyrights). We use them as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who (surfs) and (phones) under the blanket of the very (iPhone) I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a (baseball bat) and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
I have one (don't ask). It's exactly the same as a normal iPhone except the backplate has the "not approved by the FCC" text. Must be one of the later iterations of prototypes.
A very large amount of Japanese culture actually comes from China.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Sure... you could say the same about any country though. Chinese history is the longest recorded record on Earth.
However, China was split apart at one point by Western powers and they tend to take such things in stride.
Japan became isolationist and only allowed Europeans on their land fairly recently.
Thier culture may have similar roots but recent application and emphasis has been very different.
Well one does not imply the other - not all dictatorships are communist and a democracy does not need to capitalistic as well...
It is not because of poor engineers suicide, Foxconn drove their partners mad by diminishing quality and their "me too" laptops based on the following The Inquirer article.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1433657/apple-sony-dump-foxconn-quanta
" Western culture isn't immune to these effects either (cf. high-profile financial advisors committing suicide in 2008-2009), but I understand that it's significantly more of an issue in Asia"
There is a huge difference between a very rich financial advisor losing all his money and clients, their trust and possibly going to jail committing suicide and a poor engineer committing suicide for sole reason of honor.
For some cultures, losing honor means losing the entire reason of living. For example, at a free time, look for the reason why burglary rate at Japan is so low. Not mafioso style, the ordinary house burglary. You will be really surprised.
While I don't agree that you should commit suicide for losing a protype of a paranoid American company, I try to understand.
"...We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee, and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death. We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect." Intimidating staff is a right reserved exclusively by and for Steve Jobs For all lawyers for Mr Jobs and Apple Computers reading this post, the entire contents are enclosed in invisible "irony" tags
Hello!
Did he died?
none of this sits right..
he told his boss.. so obviously suicide wasn't his first choice as he was already prepared to take responsibilty..
also.. he couldn't back track every step? i.e it was easier to die than to do that?
if you had a iphone prototype.. how would react to it missing? I know I would try and assist in every possible way to get it back..
usually when untimely death is involved its always a matter of either love or money
iSplat
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect."
Oh really?
http://koitsu.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/foxconn-and-slave-labour/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13357555/
Then pick another supplier/vendor. End of fucking story.
We buy just about everything we use in our daily lives from China, and in light of our dwindling manufacturing base, perhaps we should rethink our partnership until things like this are less common. Now this is not to say that intimidation is not a part of US history (or present for that matter), but a US corp could not order its thugs to intimidate and search the home of one of its workers. At least not publicly.
China uses a basket, which they control and they keep the value fixed against the dollar even though they have accumulated 3 TRILLION dollars. In a proper economy, the dollar would plummet against the Yuan/Renminbi. In fact, most economists say that if China allowed it to properly float, that they Yuan would trade at about 1.5-2 yuan/dollar. Right now, it trades at ~7 yuan to a dollar. On September 30, 2008, the renminbi traded at 6.7899 yuan per U.S. dollar, which is a 17.3% increase and the highest rate since the removal of the peg. On the other hand, on October 27, 2008 it traded at 8.52812 yuan per euro, [23] which corresponds roughly to the rate at the time of the lifting of the peg against the US-Dollar. In fact, the renminbi has remained at a value of around 6.83 per U.S. dollar since July 2008, oscillating around a narrow band, which in practice amounts to a re-pegging of the renminbi against the dollar.
Two trade is a good thing WHEN AND ONLY WHEN it is two way and money is allowed to adjust to properly encourage correct value. China's (and India's) actions are designed to drain jobs away from the west, mostly America. Had W done the right thing and either removed MFN or better yet, get China to live up to their agreements, then there would be NO RECESSION/DEPRESSION right now. This recession/depression has a LOT to do with this imbalance.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'll certainly give you zen, as that's the Chinese chan. But I think you're off base when it comes to haiku. :)
The haiku is part of a distinctly Japanese poetic tradition stretching back to at least the Heian period, and likely evolving from something prior to that. The word itself means something like "excerpt", being the first three lines of a larger format called a tanka. The word tanka means "short song", and was contrasted against the chôka or "long song", both forms of the waka, or "Japanese song" -- "Japanese" to distinguish the form from the classical-Chinese-based kanshi style of poetry. More here.
There is some speculation that Japanese poetic forms, particularly the renga style, might have arisen from or been heavily influenced by Chinese poetry, but the first paragraph here mirrors what I've read elsewhere, basically making the point that Japanese poetry doesn't owe much to Chinese. No doubt this is due at least in part to very different linguistic structures -- one might as well try to compose a limerick or iambic pentameter in Japanese. (For that matter, I happen to feel that a haiku in English makes about as much sense -- the haiku format only really works for a language with morae and relatively flat stress, which pretty much rules English out.)
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
"We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect"
No you don't. You do business in China. You keep yourself willfully ignorant as much as possible about their internal workings, In fact you not only don't require any such thing from them; it would be more accurate to say that you cave in a hot second to China's "don't even think about telling us what to do, and we'll provide cheap labor you shouldn't think too hard about" attitude. So shut the fuck up.
That which does not kill us makes us... st
China being split apart by western powers was fairly recent and fairly brief, and I don't think the Western powers controlled enough of China to have a serious effect on the culture. The Communists did, however, and the Cultural Revolution did a pretty good job of forcing cultural change. Japan may have been more isolationist, but MacArthur didn't mess around when dictating Japan's new economic and political structure, and I think it's arguable which country has experienced the more drastic social changes post-WWII.
That being said, the fact is that tons of Chinese school children commit suicide by jumping off tall buildings every year. The specifics may differ, but China most certainly has a tradition of suicide as a response to significant loss of face.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
According to Wikipedia, Japan had a 34.8 male suicides per 100,000 people in 1999 with 13.2 for females. China had 13.0 with slightly more female suicides (14.8).
To me, those numbers back up the statement regarding loss of face and seppuku as being much more of a predominant factor in Japanese culture.
Having said that, certain countries double Japan's suicide rate in males. The top three are Lithuania (68.1), Belarus (63.3) and Russia (58.1). I suspect suicides there are not honor related.
Probably jumped just before he was about to be pushed.. Bet the mood in the bosses office wasn't too hot that day..
100% Mortgage
If you believe any statistics that come out of China, you are a fool. The Chinese government lies constantly, about everything.
A high suicide rate would make it look like things might be less than perfect in the People's Republic, which would cause the high party officials to lose face, and so many suicides are not recorded as suicides.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Well, then we can't really know much about anything about this. This guy may have actually have been murdered the security personnel and it was made to look like a suicide and that most reported suicides are actually covers for murders in China.
This story may all be made up just to tarnish Apple's reputation. What sort of fact checking is it possible to do on stories that come out of China?
One thing that I will point out is that it is interesting that the words we use for ritual suicide after a loss of shame, 'seppuku', is a Japanese word and goes back to a samurai tradition. To my knowledge, there never were Chinese samurai.
This concept of committing suicide after a loss of face continues to remain a Japanese concept in my eyes, not a Chinese one.
I don't know of any Chinese samurai either, but I do know of the Korean hwa rang, who were quite similar in many ways to samurai and predated them by a couple of centuries.
As for using suicide as a cover for murder in China, that's unlikely. Wealth and political power go hand in hand in China, and the powerful can get away with just about anything. Why go to the trouble of making it look like suicide when you can just have him disappeared? That kind of effort is only worthwhile in countries that operate under the rule of law.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Hmm... China sounds very different from Japan after all, doesn't it.
Did you have some point you were making or just demonstrating your knowledge?
Both.
My specific point is that suicide in the face of dishonor is a Chinese tradition. My more general point is that a significant amount of what you seem to consider to be distinctively Japanese is in fact derivative, and most of that was derived from China. The Japanese have long been masters of borrowing good ideas from other cultures, a fact that is largely responsible for their modern success.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I completely agree that the Japanese have demonstrated themselves as the great borrowers. The Chinese show a similar trend but to a much lesser degree.
I still don't see any evidence presented that this is true in this particular case though. I am sure that suicide is probably a more acceptable answer to losses of honor in China or anywhere in the East than in the West. They have entirely different concepts in regards to how to value life or death than we do.
I think the most succinct statement of this difference is that the Western approach to life is to conquer it by hitting it hard (hunter approach) and the Eastern approach is to endure (farmer approach).
Having said all that, can you provide any data on what sort of factor honor-based suicide is in present-day China or are you extrapolating from other known data?
Now, that's a fine way to make an argument, and teach others to do the same!
To address your point — as much as I was able to discern it through foul language — he absolutely does have a full (fucking) right to live anywhere he wants to (and so does everyone else). And I (fucking) challenge you to show, where in my posting do I deny that right.
My point was, people, who claim, that corporations and Capitalism are evil, are (fucking) inconsistent and hypocritical. They enjoy the awesome standard of living, that Capitalism offers even to its least-successful participants, while doing their damnest to undermine it.
Having lived under and among such hypocrisy through my youth, I'm particularly angry at its practitioners here. Hypocrisy is not illegal, but had Chomsky and his followers been honest, they would've moved to a corporations-free country such as North Korea, or Cuba, or, at least, Venezuela. That they have no "testicular fortitude" to do so, does not lead me to advocate their deportation — contrary to your rant — but simply that I deem them to be hypocrites and would not honor their arguments with a direct rebuttal, since deep inside they don't hold the expressed opinions themselves.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.