Yahoo Offered Lap Dances At Hack Event

Fotograf writes "Yahoo's latest embarrassment seems like a sign that the company is just trying too hard to be cool. The latest debacle is earning the company some additional publicity. After Yahoo hosted Taiwan Open Hack Day, a special event for engineers and developers that was held last weekend, a series of photos found their way onto the internet — as ill-thought out decisions often do. Yahoo offered lap dances to the attendees of the hack event. Since the pictures have come out the company has decided to apologize."

Comments

shucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome. Wish I was there.

Re:shucks

[oldspewey]

My company never offers me lapdances. Hell, they give us a hard time if we requisition a new laptop.

Re:shucks

[Philip K Dickhead]

They hate us, for our freedoms!

Re:shucks

[sopssa]

But dont you people understand how this disgraces women? They are human beings, not sex objects!

Now I'm off to redtube.

Re:shucks

[ubrgeek]

That's funny. The laptops would accomplish the same thing.

Re:shucks

[artemis67]

Not to be outdone, the Bing team is hiring crackwhores to give blowjobs.

Re:shucks

[nazsco]

YAHOOOOOOGIGGITY

Re:shucks

[mweather]

I notice you thing being a human being excludes you from being a sex object. I'm not one to judge, just remember: Baaaaa means no.

Re:shucks

[yiantsbro]

That depends. If emphasis is placed upon the "aa" then it means no when placed upon the "aaa" it means yes.

Re:shucks

[CarpetShark]

Not to be outdone, the Bing team is hiring crackwhores to give blowjobs.

To be fair, Microsoft are doing a good thing here. Some of those crackwhores just got out of prison after cutting their husbands' nuts off, so they need a fresh start.

Company Issued Laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that's a nice company issued laptop. ZING!

This is an outrage!

[PalmHair]

Why wasn't I invited?

Re:This is an outrage!

[AliasMarlowe]

Yes, it is an outrage!
Why just a handful of dancers? They should have had enough for everyone.

Re:This is an outrage!

[cayenne8]

What I don't understand is....why is yahoo now apologizing for this?!?!?

Re:This is an outrage!

[s4m7]

What I don't understand is....why is yahoo now apologizing for this?!?!?

Seriously. Who doesn't love a good lapdance. Most of the _girls_ I know like lapdances. Hackers love them some lapdances. Why is this "embarrassing?" and since when are lapdances trendy (or whatever would cause someone to say yahoo's "trying too hard to be cool")

Re:This is an outrage!

[interkin3tic]

What I don't understand is....why is yahoo now apologizing for this?!?!?

Should be obvious: they don't want to get bad PR, get targeted for an idiotic protest/boycott/letter writing campaign, lose advertisers... money.

I heard about this elsewhere, with quotes by a father who was at the event with his young daughter. I can understand not wanting his daughter to see that. There are, however, people who were -not- there who could hear about this and might be persuaded to go on some campaign against yahoo, for lacking morals or something like that. Why might someone object to this even though they weren't anywhere near taiwan? I don't fully understand their mindset, people who honestly believe the world is becoming more immoral. They seem to ignore the fact that we're no longer burning women at the stake for being witches, we no longer have slavery, we no longer go on crusades (er... as overtly anyway.) To these people, Walmart switching to saying "Happy holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" is evidence enough that we are becoming corrupt. To combat that decline, they've gotten it in their heads that they must fight what they deem to be immoral behavior whenever they notice it.

If this story were to be picked up by, say, a certain extremely unbalanced cable news network, Yahoo could very easily have a large protest on their hands. "Sex! Sponsored by an american company! Outrageous! Call pastor bill, we need to boycott this company, whatever 'Yahoo' is selling." And that would be annoying.

Fortunately, these people are almost as easily pacified as they are riled up. A semi-sincere sounding apology will shut those people up, they say "oh, they learned their lesson."

For further reading on this subject

Re:This is an outrage!

[drdrgivemethenews]

In case the picture of Carol Bartz giving one of the lap dances gets out.

Re:This is an outrage!

[amilo100]

I don't fully understand their mindset, people who honestly believe the world is becoming more immoral. They seem to ignore the fact that we're no longer burning women at the stake for being witches,

No. But you do torture people in Guatanamo. You also make people write TPS reports in small cubicles.

we no longer have slavery, we no longer go on crusades (er... as overtly anyway.)

But you do kill people in Iraq. Wars in the past was fairly small scale compared to industrialized death and destruction.

Re:This is an outrage!

[interkin3tic]

No. But you do torture people in Guatanamo.

Did I say we were saints today compared to in the past? No. My point was that we're not becoming more IMMORAL, in fact I think we're becoming more MORAL as a society for the aforementioned reasons and more.

Torture still does go on, but there's far more opposition to it than in the past. During the spanish inquisition, there were no protests. Today, we do tell our government we want them to stop the torture.

While all torture is inhumane, the state-sponsored torture that goes on at Guantanamo is, er, not quite as primitive at least as the state-sponsored torture that went on through history. We're not using iron maidens or hot pokers, we're using water. Not to trivialize it, torture in any form is immoral, but if I had to choose, I'd prefer the torture that is going on currently over more traditional methods.

But you do kill people in Iraq.

Our government kills people in Iraq. A lot of us were opposed to the Iraq war. There is a much higher percentage of the populace that openly opposed the Iraq war than most other pointless wars. Again going back to the crusades, polling data wasn't available, but its safe to assume there was a lot less controversey about it on the part of the public. To me, that indicates we've become more moral and more opposed to violence, not less.

Wars in the past was fairly small scale compared to industrialized death and destruction.

No. 620,000 people died in the american civil war, over 60 million people died in world war 2.

Iraq war casualties estimates vary widely, most sources seem to be saying below 200,000, one says 600,000, and one is up to a million. I haven't done more than glance at that page, but you can't tell me that WWII is small compared to this.

I suppose you might count WWII as a modern war, which would be fair. But the people who believe the world is in moral decline say it started around the '60s, not before WWII. Again, if we are becoming more immoral as they say, at least we're less violent.

Re:This is an outrage!

[Anonymous Coward]

And this idiotic diatribe was thought to be insightful? When morality has to be legislated, the people are already immoral.

Re:This is an outrage!

[amilo100]

A lot of us were opposed to the Iraq war.

That is what I like about the USA. They can go to war and still not be responsible for it. It is exactly like this South Park: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_Little_Bit_Country

No. 620,000 [answers.com] people died in the american civil war, over 60 million people [wikipedia.org] died in world war 2.

I am talking about a long long time ago.

I suppose you might count WWII as a modern war, which would be fair. But the people who believe the world is in moral decline say it started around the '60s, not before WWII.

You are also conflating morality with the number of people that dies in wars. There are a lot of other reasons why less people dies in war (nuclear weapons, a globalised economy, etc). That doesn’t mean that the world is more moral.

Re:This is an outrage!

[interkin3tic]

That is what I like about the USA. They can go to war and still not be responsible for it. It is exactly like this South Park: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_a_Little_Bit_Country [wikipedia.org]

I notice you didn't sufficiently motivate your government to stop the US government from invading Iraq, yet you talk as if you think you're not just as responsible as I am for what happened.

I don't have a cartoon episode to reference to help illustrate my point though, so I suppose that might not be quite up to your standards.

Re:This is an outrage!

[amilo100]

I notice you didn't sufficiently motivate your government to stop the US government from invading Iraq, yet you talk as if you think you're not just as responsible as I am for what happened.

I am an ethnic minority who can’t even stop the government from destroying my language and culture.

I don't have a cartoon episode to reference to help illustrate my point though, so I suppose that might not be quite up to your standards.

I made the point in a light-hearted fashion (although it is still a valid point IMHO).

Let me rephrase my point – only in modern (industrial times) such a great amount of people died in wars. The reason for that is diverse – the population is higher, better technology exists and wars became more globalised (Before industrialization it was difficult to have “World Wars” since a large section of the world wasn’t even discovered).

In the middle Ages wars were limited to the armies that the ruling elite could raise – and therefore they weren’t as big and as vicious. This changed in a large part with Napoleon who raised extremely large armies by conscription.

In any case, the economy globalized to such an extent and with the introduction with nuclear warfare, wars between major powers became extremely rare. In the past half century major powers just fought proxy wars against each other.

But that doesn’t mean that we have become more moral – I personally think that we have become less moral. We have fewer wars because of economic and other factors – not because of a change of heart.



About the cartoon episode – I think that it proves a point. The USA lacks a collective guilt over its foreign policy. I am not saying this is a bad thing. Citizens of other countries and groups do however have a collective guilt (or expected to have) over things that they had no direct influence in (e.g. Germany in WW2). This is clearly not a good thing.

Re:This is an outrage!

[interkin3tic]

About the cartoon episode – I think that it proves a point. The USA lacks a collective guilt over its foreign policy. I am not saying this is a bad thing. Citizens of other countries and groups do however have a collective guilt (or expected to have) over things that they had no direct influence in (e.g. Germany in WW2). This is clearly not a good thing.

So it proves a point, but you don't think it is a good one?

Those of us who tried to stop the Iraq war but couldn't -shouldn't- feel guilt for the foreign policy of others, are we agreed on that? You can't stop the government from destroying your culture, you don't feel responsible for that do you?

In the middle Ages wars were limited to the armies that the ruling elite could raise – and therefore they weren’t as big and as vicious. This changed in a large part with Napoleon who raised extremely large armies by conscription....
But that doesn’t mean that we have become more moral – I personally think that we have become less moral. We have fewer wars because of economic and other factors – not because of a change of heart.

I think it's helpful to keep in mind what I was talking about originally: the people who claim we have lost our moral standing since the '50s. We had industrialized war before that, and since the '50s, the wars we have had often are less damaging.

You're right that it may be mostly due to economic factors, but I did point out that more people were opposed to war now than they were in the past, before the '50s.

why wasn't I get invited?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a laptop, therefore I also have a lap. why didn't I get invited? That's it! No more Yahoo for me... I only Google from now on.
Take that big media!

(ha ha...my captcha is "quagmire"...giggity!)

Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[Nebulious]

Just goes to show you that you can read all of the documentation you want, but experience is what really matters.

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[IBBoard]

He looks like he is lit up and on a stage - I wouldn't be surprised if he is a touch more awkward than normal!

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[CarpetShark]

That's because there's a sexy woman dancing around his lap, trying to turn him on, and yet there's a big guy in the corner who'll kick his ass and throw him out if he looks like he's about to touch her.

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they weren't interfacing well.

Maybe he was little-endian, and she was expecting big-endian...

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[cayenne8]

"That's because there's a sexy woman dancing around his lap, trying to turn him on, and yet there's a big guy in the corner who'll kick his ass and throw him out if he looks like he's about to touch her."

Not if you have enough money...and know how to 'haggle'.

:)

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[s4m7]

I suspect he skipped the reading and just looked at the pictures.

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[genner]

Maybe they weren't interfacing well.

Maybe he was little-endian, and she was expecting big-endian...

Some guys don't wan't it in the endian, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[Tyler Durden]

That's why God invented Canada.

Re:Kid in the white shirt looks akward

[BobMcD]

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

as they would say on FARK..

[MickyTheIdiot]

Get the popcorn... this is going to be an epic thread. We've already had the "Wish I was there" post, it's time for the feminist wing to turn up. Oh the objectification!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[armanox]

Get the popcorn... this is going to be an epic thread. We've already had the "Wish I was there" post, it's time for the feminist wing to turn up. Oh the objectification!

This is slashdot. I have yet to see a feminist wing.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[runyonave]

There has yet to be a female.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[commodore64_love]

Hello,

I represent LAMBDA. I'd like to know why there were no MALE dancers for me to enjoy? Not all of us like girls. Men want to be objectified too!

;-)

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[pete6677]

This kind of stunt has become a common play in the PR handbook. Do something moderately outrageous, just enough to piss off some special interest group, and your company gets a ton of free publicity as a result. Pepsi did something like this a few months ago with an iPhone app: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33310411/. You can't tell me that nobody in charge knew this stuff would be controversial. They knew exactly what they were doing and that it would get them more publicity than they were willing to pay for. The company can always fake an apology later to make it look unintentional.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[caffeinemessiah]

You can't tell me that nobody in charge knew this stuff would be controversial. They knew exactly what they were doing and that it would get them more publicity than they were willing to pay for

Never attribute to cleverness what can be attributed to stupidity. The Pepsi campaign was actually for Amp, a mountain dew-type energy drink, which is supposed to be "edgy", whatever that means. To me, that sounds like a bunch of douchebag marketing execs, fresh out of newly minted MBAs or marketing degrees, who genuinely, genuinely believe that putting out a sexist ad is "targeting the demographic" and not a "massive liability".

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Abreu]

And yet when a guy tried to complain here about sexist attitudes in open-source he was shot down to hell...

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[jDeepbeep]

There has yet to be a female.

False.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[joyfeather]

As a real female and somewhat of a feminist, I am not offended by yahoo offering this, but it does seem a bit odd.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bluefoxlucid]

There's "somewhat of a femenist," and then there's "oh you poor brainwashed thing, staying home to mother the kids... you should have a real job, don't let those men be all elite on you!" femenists.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bluefoxlucid]

For a second I thought you said NAMBLA....

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bsDaemon]

Is it called Lambda because gay sex is recursive?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Whalou]

OMG! A real female on slashdot!

It's time like these that I wish slashdot's "Alter Relationship" user option was more powerful. :-)

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bsDaemon]

That's what she said.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[lxs]

There's also "knows how to spell 'feminist'".

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Femenist rhyme with Semenist?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Enderandrew]

I'm androgynous, you insensitive clod!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Devout_IPUite]

I think some waxed boys in those skirts and knee socks would look pretty cute.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Devout_IPUite]

Because it is?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[megamerican]

Get the popcorn... this is going to be an epic thread. We've already had the "Wish I was there" post, it's time for the feminist wing to turn up. Oh the objectification!

This is slashdot. I have yet to see a feminist wing.

You obviously weren't around for the thread on sexism in the FOSS community.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[megamerican]

And yet when a guy tried to complain here about sexist attitudes in open-source he was shot down to hell...

Don't you mean he was met with ire and denial?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bennomatic]

it's time for the feminist wing to turn up

I'll bite.

It's not 1950 anymore. Heck, it's not even 1991 anymore. When I was in school, there were less than a half dozen women in all of the CS classes I took, combined, and while it may not be 50/50 yet, there are still some pretty goodly numbers of women.

If they're going to offer lap dances, great. Objectify away. But they should also include male dancers.

And this isn't just about sexism; it's also about heterosexism. The guy in one of those pictures look like he's really trying to enjoy the ladies, but it's just not happening.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[ReneeJade]

Female. Not feminist. Loves trolling feminists, in fact. Still thinks this was a pretty tacky move from Yahoo.

If I was a female programmer at the event and I happened to be insecure about my looks (I'm a female programmer, but I like the way I look) then I would probably have felt quite uncomfortable in that situation.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[coolsnowmen]

beat me to it...damn

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[ubrgeek]

Wait. Are we talking about the lap dances or merger talks with Microsoft?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Crudely_Indecent]

Forget the feminist wing, I'm looking forward to the lesbian wing showing up! I don't need a lap dance, I just want to watch.

On that note, did anybody see Gretchen kiss Claire on Heroes? HOT!

Dexter has been replaced by Heroes as my favorite TV show!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[stanleypane]

No wonder I didn't get the cucumber joke in your signature! It's obviously an error only present in the female model.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Larryish]

I prefer breasts.

Bring on the feminist breasts!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Tanktalus]

Get the popcorn... this is going to be an epic thread. We've already had the "Wish I was there" post, it's time for the feminist wing to turn up. Oh the objectification!

Actually, the awkward part is where a coworker "accidentally" sent a link to this article to our entire organisation. Including managers, and managers' managers. I wonder what his yearly review will say...

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[DinDaddy]

Odd. My wife, who is a stay at home, except when she is devoting as many hours as a paying job to the PTA, mom, constantly gets down the nose comments from other women about not working and understanding that world.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[surfingmarmot]

what's all this talk about wings anyway? It's not wings those guys or I am interested in regarding females. In fact, I am not interested in a female of any other species wings or not.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Tetsujin]

There's also "knows how to spell 'feminist'".

Yeah! There's no MEN in FEMINISM!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Tetsujin]

If they're going to offer lap dances, great. Objectify away. But they should also include male dancers.

You know why they don't do that?

'Cause probably if they did try that, the male dancers wouldn't have any takers at the event, and afterward the decision would be made that the whole experiment had been a waste of money.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

Now there's a real shocker. There's idiots in the world with stupid ideas! And some of them even identify themselves as feminists! Better paint feminism as a whole with that brush.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[amplt1337]

GP:

The people who do that are like any other wacky group (like flat earthers), loud and crazy.

Good thing your kids aren't learning your reading skills.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[adisakp]

FWIW, Having Strippers at the company is *NOT* a good idea. The last game company I worked for had a stripper come in for the art directors birthday. I t was very awkward -- especially since she tried to get him to strip as well (which is something I did not need to see). Plus between married guys and nerds, no one really knew what we should be doing (I guess neither married guys nor nerds get sex).

Oh, and to top it all off, the one woman who was working there at the time (the receptionist) ended up suing the company for sexual harassment when she quit.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Hurricane78]

There are some gays and lesbian women looking like men here though. I guess they could form such a wing.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Locke2005]

This is slashdot. I have yet to see a feminist wing. Hey! We do have a feminist wing! But this is her day off.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Abstrackt]

OMG! A real female on slashdot! It's time like these that I wish slashdot's "Alter Relationship" user option was more powerful. :-)

Great, now there needs to be a "stalker" option... ;)

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dr. Evil]

It's disrespectful to men.

I don't want a stripper begging me for money. I don't want my peers expecting me to treat her like a stripper. I'll proudly call myself a wimp, girly, sensitive or whatever and if you have a problem with that, you really have to reconsider your image of what it is to be a man. Gay men are men. Men loyal to their girlfriends and wives are men. Men who don't take strange women's clothes off are men. We don't all have to fit into the model that television and movies make us fit into.

I've been put in this situation before and there was nothing I could do except play the game and shove money down her pants. The stripper knows it and she exploits it. Next time I encounter an event like that, I'm telling my coworkers to have fun, I'll walk straight out and tell the organizer to fuck off.

If I were Yahoo's management, I'd reassign or fire whomever was responsible for it. They shouldn't be calling shots for events.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

same, mine is a stay at home and says that they (popular opinion?) have taken all the pride out of being a good mother and everything that went with it in the 1950s like being a ridiculously good cook.

I think the women who have to work after they've had their children are jealous that
1) their husbands don't make enough to support the family lifestyle on a single income so
2) they have to continue working, not choose to continue working.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

something is wrong in a society that values children so little that women of lower incomes *must* go back to work before their children are of school age.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Draek]

But men who care about what their peers expect from them and allow themselves to be manipulated by a stripper into giving her money for services you didn't want nor asked for *are* wimps.

Thankfully you seem to have grown some balls afterwards, but stop pretending "playing the game" was the only thing you could do at the time.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of crap. Just because you don't have a spine and bowed down to peer pressure and feel angry at yourself for it, don't ruin the party for everyone else. I usually don't drink and I'm not going to complain if some company passes out free drinks. It's not that hard to say, "No thanks, you go ahead, I'm not interested." If you don't want to be "exploited" by some girl taking her clothes off, then politely excuse yourself and leave.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

right...because people are forced to get lap dances. if you didn't want one and didn't have the balls to say so, then that is your problem. yahoo provided a perfectly legal perk to their guests if they wanted it--that is not something to be fired over.

it is not disrespectful to men or women as long as both know what is going on and are there voluntarily. if you don't want to participate, don't. grow the fuck up.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bkr1_2k]

I've never understood this. You do realize, don't you, that without feminism, you wouldn't be a female programmer today? You'd either be a housewife, or a secretary looking for a husband so you can become a housewife.

Understanding your history doesn't imply you have to agree with the same course for the future. Being appreciative of her position now doesn't obligate her to agree with the rest of the political mumbo-jumbo of zealots that say all women should work and women who don't are somehow less of a woman because of it.**

**I'm aware not all feminists are zealots.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first saw that submission and noted the comment count was over 600 after just a couple hours, I decided it was better to just not even open that one.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bkr1_2k]

I've been put in this situation before and there was nothing I could do except play the game and shove money down her pants.

Wrong! You can politely decline her advances and not pay her a cent. You can [God forbid] have a conversation with her that has nothing to do with giving her money (although that's harder but not impossible) and never ever feel bad for yourself or her.

Women who do this do it for many reasons, not all of them are exploitation. Men who accept this are not being exploited (necessarily) any more than the women are. Enjoying the company or sight of attractive people is not a bad thing. As you suggest, there's nothing wrong with being aware of your manhood without trying to prove it to every other swinging dick around you, but there's also nothing wrong with enjoying what is out there to be seen. Treat people with respect, whether they are cops, strippers, hookers, your parents or your neighbor, and you've done all that should be expected of you.

I guarantee, from personal experience, that people around you will respect you plenty if you don't "partake" but enjoy the atmosphere quietly and treat all persons present respectfully.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[treeves]

Sorry. Is it femynyst?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bkr1_2k]

I think I saw those in a club in Vegas once...

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Registered Coward v2]

It's disrespectful to men.

I don't want a stripper begging me for money.

I've been put in this situation before and there was nothing I could do except play the game and shove money down her pants. The stripper knows it and she exploits it. Next time I encounter an event like that, I'm telling my coworkers to have fun, I'll walk straight out and tell the organizer to fuck off.

Why can't you? I've been in that situation, as a designated driver, and had no problem not shoving money into a g-string. One thing about strippers - they are in it for the money. You are simply a conduit for moving it from your wallet to hers. Once they realize you are not going to shell out cash, they leave you alone. A simple "I'm here to drive my friends home safely and am not interested, thanks," gets them moving on to the next guy. Word quickly gets around and you get left alone.

As for my friends, if they give me hard time I simply tell them I'm a cheap SOB and will not waste money when there is nothing in it for me.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[syousef]

Take some responsibility for yourself. If every event was at a strip club you may have a point about being left out and it affecting your career. But if it's one event stop calling for people to be fired, and walk out like you said you would instead of blaming people for "making" you shove money down a stripper's pants.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[plague3106]

So members of NOW aren't serious? Because I've heard them say pretty much exactly that.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

The wings help lock it in place, and prevent leaks from seeping over the panty-line. Now I can even play tennis!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[EvanED]

When I was in school, there were less than a half dozen women in all of the CS classes I took, combined, and while it may not be 50/50 yet, there are still some pretty goodly numbers of women.

I am still in (grad) school. The highest female-to-male ratio I have ever seen in any CS class at either my undergrad institution (attended 2002-2006) or my grad one (both are large state institutions) was 3 or 4 in a class of 20-some. That was an honors class and most of the CS girls in my year were in the honors program. In most classes it was 4 or 55 in a class of 50. It's entirely possible that the total number of females I had a CS class with while an undergrad is less than a dozen.

I went through the grad student directory for my current school. There are 250 names listed; 217 people have pictures. Of those, fewer than 40 are female; that's about 16%. Even if every one of the pictureless people were female, it would still be less than 1/3 of the dept.

So no, my experience is that there aren't goodly numbers of women; the ratios in school are still terrible.

Granted, industry seems to be doing a little better, and maybe numbers are higher at smaller privatee institutions, but it's still pretty bad.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Rick Bentley]

Uhm ... why take all this so seriously? I mean, what's the big deal getting/giving a lap dance? It lasts one song, everyone is clothed, if you think it means anything then you are a confused customer. A backrub/massage is far more intimate and no one gets all flustered over that, storms out of anything or tells anyone to f-off. In fact, Google had an on staff masseuse for their Engineers all the time back in the day.

Seems like the only complaint to be made here is that there wasn't a male stripper on stand by on the off chance a female attendee showed up.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[plague3106]

Most people who get offended about things similar to this are really showing their own insecurities.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[that IT girl]

If I had mod points, I'd give you one. <3

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Knuckles]

Men want to be objectified too!

;-)

Don't anthropomorphize men.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[plague3106]

It's disrespectful to men.

No, I don't really see how.

I don't want a stripper begging me for money.

I don't think anyone was forced on stage.

I don't want my peers expecting me to treat her like a stripper.

Do you also not want your peers to expect you to treat a waitress like a waitress? Or a mechanic like a mechanic? How about a masseuse as a masseuse? Stripping is a job, its not (contrary to what some say) derogetory to women, disrespectful, etc. Its a job, just like any other service job.

Men loyal to their girlfriends and wives are men. Men who don't take strange women's clothes off are men.

So are men that aren't. Men who do are still men.

We don't all have to fit into the model that television and movies make us fit into.

Yet part of being a man is pursuing sex. Its part biology as well as rational thinking.

I've been put in this situation before and there was nothing I could do except play the game and shove money down her pants. The stripper knows it and she exploits it. Next time I encounter an event like that, I'm telling my coworkers to have fun, I'll walk straight out and tell the organizer to fuck off.

Ahh, so you're mad because you feel like you're not in control... or not the alpha male I guess. You see a shortcoming in yourself. I can understand you leaving, but no need to be rude. For many men (probably w/higher test. levels then you) strippers are fun entertainment.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Seems like the only complaint to be made here is that there wasn't a male stripper on stand by on the off chance a female attendee showed up.

Not just that, but a 100% straight, Kinsey Zero, female. Every single girl I've dated, and plenty that I just know casually would take a lapdance from a hot naked chick over a lapdance from an overly buff twink.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

On that note, did anybody see Gretchen kiss Claire on Heroes? HOT!

Dexter has been replaced by Heroes as my favorite TV show!

Then you need to be watching some californication - the actress who played Gretchen was topless a couple of times in previous seasons and I don't think a single episode goes by without some female nudity. Although, if Kathleen Turner starts showing some skin, I think that'll be the end of it...

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[xmundt]

Greetings and Salutations...
          Hum...do YOU realize that that originally, computer programmers were ALL women?

http://www.witi.com/center/witimuseum/halloffame/1997/eniac.php

and, for quite some time this remained true.
The pendulum swings both ways, and, perhaps one day we will be back to an all female programming staff.

regards
dave mundt

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bluefoxlucid]

Unfortunately, there are serious groups of retarded people; they are branded under serious names ("NOW" "Gay Pride" etc etc); and they make themselves VERY loud so that whatever interest they represent looks to be entirely like them. The media also likes to cover them, because they draw attention and thus ratings (look, 50 gay clubs and GLBT groups and such, and at this ONE place they pretty much mingle 40 year old men with 15 year old boys and run around nearby college campuses half-naked being obnoxious ALL GAYS MUST BE ASSHOLE PEDOPHILES!).

As you say, loud and crazy. And also prone to band in groups, and represent themselves as distinctly related group; young-earth creationists are distinctly Catholic, but 99.99% of Catholics are not young-earth creationists and don't think you're going to hell for thinking the earth is more than 5000 years old.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Thuktun]

something is wrong in a society that values children so little that women of lower incomes *must* go back to work before their children are of school age.

Why did you say "women" instead of "parents"?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[ReneeJade]

I see your point and acknowledge it. In fact I agree. I sure as hell don't want to be a house wife. And I know that I owe my chance to be a scientist and programmer to many brave men and women who stuck up for my rights in the past. However, I know too many women who take feminism to the point of sexism, and I can't help but get a kick out of being sexist right on back and watching the outrage :P. I'm not a feminist, but I believe in liberalism, and there is much overlap. The feminist trolling is just for kicks.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[that IT girl]

I represent straight women, and I approve this message.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[mdarksbane]

And when will *you* realize that the war is over. Congratulations, you won! Women in America and most western countries have 100% legal rights! They're going to college in more numbers than men, they're doing great in the workplace, and sexual harassment is the quickest way to end your career. Pretty much everything that's left is not a gender issue - it's a class issue, or a human rights issue in general. You've been so successful that modern women are free and reasonable to think that continuing to fight is ridiculous.

Either pick some new issues or start working on changing cultures in other parts of the world, where women still *are* oppressed, instead of browbeating the women you worked to give rights to when they freely exercise those rights without seeming properly grateful.

*note: This is a rant directed at the modern feminist movement in general, not necessarily at you personally. Also, I am completely 100% in favor of equal rights for women. I see no real evidence that we have failed to attain this in any reasonable way. I will agree 100% that there are still inequalities in society that could be improved, but I see as many of them at this point in time on the masculine side as on the feminine side (date rape vs prison rape, spousal abuse goes both way, gender roles are still assumed for all, abortion vs child support and custody), and approaching these problems as feminist or masculinist just obscures any meaningful solution.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[cayenne8]

"something is wrong in a society that values children so little that women of lower incomes *must* go back to work before their children are of school age."

So, "I" am supposed to pay to raise their mistakes because they couldn't insist their man wear a rubber or else not fuck?

Geez, I don't have any kids because I don't want to spend my time and money to raise them...why should I pay to do this for someone else??

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[BitZtream]

PR handbook if it was done in the US maybe.

In most of Europe, no one would care.

In Tiawan, no one cares the slightest.

You are applying your culture to a country and people thousands of miles away from you that subscribe to a completely different culture.

The only reason you know about it is because some posted pictures of the event and someone else said 'OMG BOOBIES OMG OMG OMG OMG'.

They did it last year as well, no pictures, no story. This is completely socially accepted in Taiwan's culture. Stop projecting yours on to it.
$10 says it didn't make the news in the city it happened in, probably not even the country it happened in. No one there CARES.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've been put in this situation before and there was nothing I could do"

You could have been a man about it and stood up for what you believe in.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Devout_IPUite]

Aaah... Natural selection.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Devout_IPUite]

False. Many young earth creationists are pentecostalist (and most pentecostalists are young earth creationists).

Perhaps a better example would be general christians?

As you say, loud and crazy. And also prone to band in groups, and represent themselves as distinctly related group; young-earth creationists are distinctly Christian, but 99.99% of Christians are not young-earth creationists and don't think you're going to hell for thinking the earth is more than 5000 years old.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[TheCarp]

In fact, it was a feminist that I know who prosed this question to me:

If you have a person who actually enjoys doing housework, or even go so far as to say enjoys being dominated and kept as a slave. These people exist, they are not that hard to find.

Now lets say that person is a woman. Hell lets say she is black, and her chosen mate is a white man.

It may make people feel weird, but if the values that we hold dear are liberation, and choice. Then why can't a black woman be submissive to a white man? Because she is a woman? Because she is black? Because we think she should want something different?

I think the real problem is that labels seldom apply well to people. One group of people calling themselves feminists make a few outrageous statements about all men being rapists, and next thing you know, every feminist is seen as a man hating battle axe.

Frankly, I take maybe a pessimistic view. However, I don't really think talk of ideals changes people for the most part. Asking people to change their behavior seldom does much. However, economics kind of required women to go to work, and once they did, it was hard to argue that they couldn't do the job anymore.

Essentially, realities change, then people accept them, seldom the other way around.

-Steve

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Devout_IPUite]

**Actually most aren't, the extremist feminists are a fiction created by the moderate feminists enemies to try to diminish the power of the word feminism (as it's clearly working since both you and the poster two levels up avoid the word because the right has distorted it)

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[that IT girl]

We do indeed exist :D

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Desmanthus]

If it's not your thing, don't go to a strip club, and don't hire a stripper. Simple as that. No one picked you up and "put" you in "that situation". "Nothing [you] could do" my ass. For all your talk of men being men, you're only upset that you weren't man enough to be the pooper at the party. You'd rather poop on parties that you're not a party to. It's safer for you that way. You big man you.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[steve.howard]

I would wager that a majority of people these days are feminists in the sense that they want men and women to have equal opportunities and rights. Unfortunately, the word "feminism" means a lot of things to a lot of people, so most shy away from the label. To some it means "man-hater," and to others feminism is some kind of affirmative action for women. I believe in equal treatment of men and women. I don't call myself a feminist.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Rary]

And when will *you* realize that the war is over.

When it actually is. Everywhere.

Either pick some new issues or start working on changing cultures in other parts of the world, where women still *are* oppressed, instead of browbeating the women you worked to give rights to when they freely exercise those rights without seeming properly grateful.

Feminists are working to help women in the rest of the world, while recognizing that there are still problems in this part of the world. And as for the "browbeating", I can't speak for the handful of zealots, but generally feminism is about choice, and feminists generally respect those who freely choose "traditionally female" roles.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Rary]

Hum...do YOU realize that that originally, computer programmers were ALL women?

and, for quite some time this remained true. The pendulum swings both ways, and, perhaps one day we will be back to an all female programming staff.

Yes, I do realize that. Of course, that wasn't so much a "pendulum swing" as it was an artifact of a world war that sent most of the country's men overseas, leaving the women to do most of the work that men would otherwise be doing back home.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Rary]

Understanding your history doesn't imply you have to agree with the same course for the future.

What does that really mean? "I'm glad feminists got me to where I am today, now I wish things would go back to the way it was"? Or maybe "Feminists have benefited me, now they should just give up and stop fighting for others who are still oppressed because, hey, I'm free, and that's all that matters"? I really don't understand what you mean.

Being appreciative of her position now doesn't obligate her to agree with the rest of the political mumbo-jumbo of zealots that say all women should work and women who don't are somehow less of a woman because of it.**

**I'm aware not all feminists are zealots.

But the position you describe is really not the general sentiment of feminists, nor does it describe what modern feminists are fighting for. Are you talking about feminists? Or about zealots? Or creating a straw man?

Most anti-feminist sentiment comes down to "I'm opposed to man-hating bull-dyke feminists who think all women should be CEOs who have a man who cooks and cleans for them". Well, that's great that you're opposed to something that doesn't exist, except maybe in the "mind" of Rush Limbaugh (or whoever the hell is the hero of the right-wing these days), but what do you think about actual feminists? You know, the ones fighting for actual freedom (including the freedom to choose to be a housewife if that's what you really want) and equality?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[starfishsystems]

Men who don't take strange women's clothes off are men.

Men who do take strange women's clothes off are men too. I don't think that's the issue.

About twenty years ago, I stopped going with colleagues to watch exotic dancers. I paid a small professional cost, perhaps, in being the odd man out, but it seemed a fair trade for peace of mind.

I realized that I could not be comfortable with the rules of the game. Atom Egoyan illustrates this point well in the film Exotica. To create a setting of sexual arousal without corresponding social freedom and compassion is essentially perverse.

Just because a natural impulse can be monetized doesn't mean that it should be, especially if it involves forcing the participants, both dancers and patrons, into hyperconstrained roles that dehumanize their relationship to each other.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[i0lanthe]

Female. Feminist according to http://tomatonation.com/?p=677 which tends to encompass a *lot* of people (though not all) who say "I'm not a feminist but." I agree that trolling people with no sense of humor, which is a superset of what most folks seem to mean when they say "feminist", can be an entertaining pastime though.

Let's take back the word for "us" and let all the subsets of "trollable people" find new words to describe themselves.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

In fact, it was a feminist that I know who prosed this question to me: if you have a person who actually enjoys doing housework, or even go so far as to say enjoys being dominated and kept as a slave. These people exist, they are not that hard to find. Now lets say that person is a woman. Hell lets say she is black, and her chosen mate is a white man. It may make people feel weird, but if the values that we hold dear are liberation, and choice. Then why can't a black woman be submissive to a white man? Because she is a woman? Because she is black? Because we think she should want something different?

The problem there is not that such a thing is impossible; the problem is that the context in which the claim is made can make it harder or easier to believe. You can be sure that back in the days of slavery, a lot of slaves would have told you that they were very happy to be slaves to such a nice master. But this is a context in which the state recognized no right for the slave to be free. How do you distinguish the slave who truly wanted to be a slave from the one who was lying about it? How do you distinguish the slave who truly, freely chose to be a slave for the rest of his days, from the one who never had any choice and simply stopped hoping for any more?

Going back to your friend's example, it's harder to believe the woman who genuinely and freely enjoys doing housework if she's internalized since childhood the expectation that housework is women's work. It's not that it's impossible that that woman exists, it's that we know that there are tons of women who have been raised to compromise on that issue, and we can't tell her apart from those. If we, however, remove the unequal gender acculturation, then it would be easy to take a face value the lady who says she enjoys doing the housework.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[BobMcD]

I guarantee, from personal experience, that people around you will respect you plenty if you don't "partake" but enjoy the atmosphere quietly and treat all persons present respectfully.

And if his advice isn't enough, you might consider that Christ himself taught much the same thing. As did Buddha. And many others, I'm sure.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[BobMcD]

Hadn't yet. God bless YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWONkWwyQ2I

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Jesus_666]

I think that's a Marvel superhero.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Jesus_666]

I think that feminism can be seen as a sliding scale or a qualitative, er, quality one can possess, indicating how highly one values women and their power. There are those entirely without it (old-school machos), those with moderate amounts of it (those who passively support gender equality), those with somewhat elevated levels (those who actively work towards greater gender equality), those with high levels (womens' rights activists) and those with entirely too high levels (female supremacists; womens' rights zealots). Of course those are just random labels I stuck onto some points on the scale.

Most people don't like shades of grey and collapse the list to a few points ("machos, normal people, feminist zealots" being a popular set) and just try to put every person they meet into those categories. As everyone categorizes differently, one person's feminist can be another person's normal person (and some may take feminism as a prerequisite to being normal).

In the end the label doesn't tell you that much without further details about what it's supposed to express.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[cayenne8]

"Because these kids will pay for your pension once you retire."

Exactly why would they have to do this? I"m saving and investing for my retirement...isn't everyone?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[geekoid]

Your post makes your sig hilarious.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[vivian]

I've never understood this. You do realize, don't you, that without feminism, you wouldn't be a female programmer today?

I believe Female programmers existed way before the feminism movement. In fact, they existed way before male programmers too for that matter.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[tkw954]

That's right. Business first, then the whores!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[MagusSlurpy]

The feminist was apparently the story submitter, which is the only person I've seen so far paint Yahoo in a bad light for this.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[bar-agent]

Hell, originally, computers were all women. That was the job title for someone who sat down and made mathematical tables all day.

Based on how temperamental some of our electronic computers are, some would say they are still women.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Stray7Xi]

Understanding your history doesn't imply you have to agree with the same course for the future. Being appreciative of her position now doesn't obligate her to agree with the rest of the political mumbo-jumbo of zealots that say all women should work and women who don't are somehow less of a woman because of it.

Feminism is more diverse then most religions. Refined to its basis, it's simply "Men and Women should have equal opportunities". So when people say something like, "I'm not a feminist", to me that sounds as silly as if you'd said "I don't believe in racial equality". Feminism reaffirms the natural right of women to make their own choices about how to live their life. If they choose to be a housewife, a stripper, a pilot or a programmer, it's their freedom. Radical feminism that tells women it's wrong to be a housewife or a stripper is just as bad as traditional misogyny that says a woman shouldn't be a doctor or a mechanic.

What's a good and positive message gets polluted each time someone says "I don't want to be associated with those whacko feminists".

As a feminist, I don't look at this and say "Those poor strippers", exploited by men. I'm more disappointed that Yahoo labels the whole conference as horny sex-starved geeky males. But ultimately this is a Taiwanese event, I think this is well within their jurisdiction to judge the morality.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[JacksBrokenCode]

FWIW, Having Strippers at the company is *NOT* a good idea. The last game company I worked for had a stripper come in for the art directors birthday. I t was very awkward -- especially since she tried to get him to strip as well (which is something I did not need to see). Plus between married guys and nerds, no one really knew what we should be doing (I guess neither married guys nor nerds get sex).

Oh, and to top it all off, the one woman who was working there at the time (the receptionist) ended up suing the company for sexual harassment when she quit.

I'm guessing your event was in the US? FWIW, an event held in Asia is nothing like an event held in the US. In the land of karaoke bars and "anything goes", a stripper at an event is nothing of note.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[gyroidben]

I think that mostly comes from it being such an emotionally intense decision. Whether you choose to go back to work or stay at home with the kids, you tell yourself that you've made the right decision. A lot of people take it one step further and tell themselves that the opposing camp of working/stay-at-home mums made the wrong decision. This helps them to feel better about themselves but can lead to down the nose comments.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Crudely_Indecent]

Yeah, that's worth watching again and again.

Even my wife agreed that it was awesome.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[electrons_are_brave]

As I female, I've been to a work-thing where the club we had drinks at turned out to have strippers. It was difficult for me to know what to do. Sit an smile and risk looking like I'm comfortable sitting next to my collegues who are gawping at strippers? Leave and miss out on the networking? Insist we go somewhere else and look like a sour old bag? It was awkward - for most of us, male or female. The worst thing was that one of the men who was himself offended - for religious rather than feminist reasons - insisted on bringing me into it when he complained ("She looked really embarrassed"). So it ended up looking like I was on-side with the office wowser.

It's always going to end up embarrassing or offending or excluding someone, so best keep it out of work functions.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[ReneeJade]

*High five*

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[electrons_are_brave]

If I had mod points, I'd mod you up for that.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[chrb]

especially if it involves forcing the participants, both dancers and patrons

Both positions are voluntary, and neither are forced. Your argument is one against sexual slavery, not against consenting adults voluntarily engaging in social interaction where money is exchanged.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

You are applying your culture to a country and people thousands of miles away from you that subscribe to a completely different culture.

Hmmmm.... I wonder whether the women of Taiwan are so quick to subscribe to it?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[mastril]

The pendulum swings both ways, and, perhaps one day we will be back to an all female programming staff.

it will ... as soon as programming will have turned into boring monotonous work for a more than crappy payday. i think we'll get there.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[That_Dan_Guy]

What? "Completely socially accepted?!!"

This is news to my wife, who is from Taiwan.

And for the 5 years I lived there and I certainly did not see any "Social Acceptance" of this. Other things perhaps, but certainly not in public places and on display. If you show this to her and her friends she will NOT be socially accepting, let me tell you!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[stupidsocialscientis]

in the situation of a scary looking stripper at a bachelor party, i just told her i was gay and sat on my friends lap, which by the way i am not, but it worked fine for the moment!

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dr. Evil]

Work events are supposed to be inclusive and team building. Save the strippers for the after-parties.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dr. Evil]

You're totally right, and I'd agree if in this case, everyone pooled out to the strip clubs after the event.

But in this case, the strippers are company sponsored and *in* the conference :-(

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dr. Evil]

This isn't a strip club though, this is a work-sponsored event :-(

If you paid a professional cost not going out with the guys after work, imagine the professional cost of objecting to this in a trade show.

And you're quite right, I didn't mean to imply that men who like strippers aren't real men.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[TheCarp]

I see what you are saying. However, I think its actually quite circular thinking.

> it's harder to believe the woman who genuinely and freely enjoys doing housework if she's
> internalized since childhood the expectation that housework is women's work.

I think you have a false dichotomy. Whether or not she enjoys it, is distinct from why she came to enjoy it. Yes, she may have internalized since childhood this expectation. That may be part of her basis for saying that she enjoys housework.

I wonder however, why you would deny her an opinion on her own likes and dislikes, simply because you disapprove of the values that she may have learned or how she learned them? Criticize the house she was brought up in maybe. Criticize the schools, or the society, but... to not take her statements at face value essentially is denying her an opinion.

Why bother asking her what she wants in the first place, if you are just going to reject anything she says that sounds too out of line with what you think she should want?

If your lover says "I want you to call me a dirty whore and hit me", are you going to stop, sit her down and explain why she doesn't really want to be treated like that, and its all just because of her unsupportive and dysfunctional family environment? I mean you could do that, but I garauntee she will find it quite disappointing

-Steve

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dr. Evil]

"Ahh, so you're mad because you feel like you're not in control... or not the alpha male I guess. You see a shortcoming in yourself. I can understand you leaving, but no need to be rude. For many men (probably w/higher test. levels then you) strippers are fun entertainment."

Maybe you've never actually had a job in the real world, but when you walk out on a team event, it's a very strong statement to your peers and to your management. You are taking some serious risks with your career.

Not everyone is primed to make a big moral stand and turn everything into a big deal all the time, but there's nothing wrong with being pissed off about it. You pick your battles. I chose to spend time with my new coworkers even if it meant shoving money down a stripper's pants. It's a game and management put me in that position. Walking out would have been a lot more harmful.

To give you an idea of how messed up your ideas are in the real world, right now, I'm trying to think of some kind of event which traditional Muslim team members can feel comfortable participating in. These guys have been excluded from just about all the after-work stuff because of alcohol and their family lives. Nobody wants people to feel like outsiders. It means that we need to make sure that our events during working hours are even more inclusive and it's NOT a bad thing. I think we're down to going bowling, baseball or go-carts. Not much else I can think of.

But... strippers at a work function? What planet are you on?

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Dragoness Eclectic]

Originally, computers were women, too. From Wikipedia, "The first use of the word "computer" was recorded in 1613, referring to a person who carried out calculations, or computations, and the word continued to be used in that sense until the middle of the 20th century."

Women were preferred for the job as they were thought to be more careful and accurate than men.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[Registered Coward v2]

You're totally right, and I'd agree if in this case, everyone pooled out to the strip clubs after the event.

But in this case, the strippers are company sponsored and *in* the conference :-(

Yea, in Yahoo's case it should have been a WTF moment when it was first proposed.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[access.name]

I completely agree with this. As a female programmer, I'm already excluded from the "after conference" when male programmers head to stripper clubs. I don't want to go to those strip clubs because I would feel awkward, and because my male colleagues would not want me there, my presence would make them uncomfortable.

Now I will start to get excluded from conferences too because the strippers are *at* the conference? I cannot accept that. If males in the IT field are so desperate for sex, they should have a little more dignity and not force us into the situation. Let's keep the work environment a work environment, why try to bring strippers into it? Ridiculous.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[DinDaddy]

If by idiots, you mean the half of working mothers in our neighborhood.

I was not talking about women who self-identify as feminists. I was talking about a large portion of the working women she encounters, which are probably the minority in my area, most women are stay at home moms.

They are pretty common for a "straw man made up by conservatives" as ggp asserts.

My wife would classify herself as a feminist, just one who is able to stay home with the kid instead of working.

Re:as they would say on FARK..

[clone53421]

Pedant: Depending on how you pronounce the first syllable (which of course is the distinction he's trying to emphasize), it's either a super-rhyme in which the last two syllables are identical rhymes and the third-from-last syllable is a perfect rhyme, or else it's a super-rhyme where the last two syllables are identical rhymes and the third-from-last syllable is an oblique/forced rhyme. Either way, the answer is "yes, they rhyme".

/Pedant: Sorry about that.

Figures...

[Monkeedude1212]

The one IT related conference I DON'T go to... AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENS!

Re:Figures...

[Anonymous Coward]

don't mean to be a downer... but .... maybe it was because you didn't go....

Re:Figures...

[jittles]

Really? You've never seen anything like this? I've been to a tradeshow in Birmingham, UK where they may not have had lap dances, but they had pole dancers! Not to mention the girls in see-through plastic "clothes" that showed you exactly how much they were NOT wearing.

Re:Figures...

[topcoder]

Say it to me, i prefered to go to a Windows 7 party instead :(

Re:Figures...

[geekoid]

I use to go to IT conference for the strippers and beer..that I realized I didn't need the IT part.

Eh

[ae1294]

Not really a big deal.. they offer blow jobs to congressmen all the time..

Re:Eh

[MickyTheIdiot]

Yeah.. but it's the upper level execs that are offering them in that case. What would you expect from them?

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

Yeah.. but it's the upper level execs that are offering them in that case. What would you expect from them?

How about a fucking Raise or at least a hand job from the office whore.

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

I've been to a strip club ONCE in my life since my best friend dragged me along. It's pretty much what I expected: Really hot girls from the local university earning some bucks grinding away getting a bunch of nerds and rednecks frustrated with no outlet except for letting loose of a lot of money.

Your doing something wrong then.

Next time you need to take a few different drugs with you. I recommend investing in: Cocaine, Xanax, Vicodin and Soma. One of those always gets a hot stripper to hang out after work. (Not always the one you would like) AND no I'm not talking about slipping shit in girls drinks people. College girls love drugs and if you aren't some creepy looking guy giving them 20s every 5 minutes and aren't staring at their cunt the entire time you talk with them they will be more than happy to eat a pill or two.. I mean they are at work so its not like you can some how carry them out of the place unnoticed if it's some date rape pill.

Pro-Tip: Soma has some very strange effects on women. Tends to make them very horny. I have no idea why but I've seen it a number of times.

*PRO-TIP* NEVER mix Soma and cocaine, I mean NEVER! That is how you end up with dead strippers... Look it up...

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

References:

Goodguys - Washington, DC - Full Nude, very nice young college girls, it's pretty small but I like it.

The Dollhouse - Raleigh, NC, Corporate, Topless Only - lap dances and lap-shots. Also has a private lap dance room that gets used for other stuff sometimes although the management fucking hates it. Strippers have to pay $400 a night to dance here soooo if it's a slow night.... well figure it out... I've never used the room myself, not into that whole public place thing but my friend got a blow job a few times.

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

Yahoe?

I know several ho's although most don't like it when you call them that. Most are very nice people and no they aren't all crack heads. Some women do like to have sex you know? There is a difference between a street hooker and an escort. One fucks you even if you stink of death and the other decides you are cute enough to fuck for money.

I'm married now so ummm no sex with hot young ladies for me anymore... really...

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

For those of you who wish to avoid the cocaine because of it being a schedule 1 drug in the US I recommend Adderall (Amphetamine Salts) as college girls are well aware of what it is and that it lets them say up all night to study. Ritalin is fine as well but it isn't as strong...

Some of you probably think I do lots of drugs hu? Funny thing is I don't even drink except to keep from looking out of place when I do go out. I do take xanax from time to time for stress but I got a script for it so what are you gonna do about it?

Anyhow, hope some of this helps, be responsible and remember if you are drunk your wang isn't gonna work that well and you're probably gonna end up in jail for being a dipshit and screaming out stupid shit like I HAVE COCAINE.

Re:Eh

[rho]

This was the creepiest fucking thread I've seen on Slashdot. I like the way you keep replying to yourself. As if you think, "Oh, hey, here's a creepy fact about college-age strippers and drugs the Slashdot community is dying to learn from me."

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

This is disgusting. Imagine someone treating your daughter like that.

Ummm I would prefer people to treat my daughter honestly and with respect. Giving someone something they want in exchange for hanging out and maybe having sex is not wrong. The fact that they would even want to take drugs might be morally wrong and the fact that someone might provide them equally so but it's really not any different than someone wanting cash money or nice new shoes or a rich Dr Husband or even a free dinner...

I haven't said anything in this thread other than college age girls who strip or wait tables like drugs and do stupid shit to get them. That is simply a fact. I have not told anyone to lie or try and slip anything into anyone's drink.

I think the problem here is you just can't image that your daughter might be doing stuff like this. I can understand that but it's your job as a parent to teach your daughter about drugs, sex and everything else. When you don't is when they go off and become strippers just to piss daddy off...

Re:Eh

[ae1294]

Wow this thread made me a couple new enemies.. One is even a professional technology journalist who contributes regularly to PC World, InfoWorld, and other publications. I truely feel honored!

http://slashdot.org/~PCM2/

Yawn

[MBGMorden]

Company sponsored AT the actual event - yeah, that's a bit over the top. But it's pretty common for guys to head to a strip club after a business meeting. Heck in any large-ish town there will be several clubs with varying reputations (almost a caste system of sorts). Invariably there is almost always one that caters to the business crowd where you walk in and it's pretty much universally guys in suits.

Yahoo took the next awkward step, but the idea overall ain't that far-fetched.

Re:Yawn

[dummondwhu]

Underclass? Pfff.... Most of them probably earn more than I do.

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

Alternatively if you're not as puritanical in your treatment of sex as something wholly different than any other activity you'll realize that it's the same as everyone else on the planet:

One person performing a service or job for another in exchange for payment.

The guy cooking my food at the local fast food place isn't some horribly oppressed victim of society. He's making a living.

Nor is the guy pouring the concrete for my driveway.

Or my personal trainer.

Or actors putting on a show.

Or myself working on computers all day.

Just because a puritanical society has decided to make sex a taboo subject doesn't mean that these women are any different than the rest of us simply making a living.

Re:Yawn

[afc_wimbledon]

Or my personal trainer.

...and this was where you lost all Slashdot credibility.

Re:Yawn

[easyTree]

> The guy cooking my food at the local fast food place isn't some horribly oppressed victim of society. He's making a living.

Are they mutually exclusive? Why not trade places and then come back and update your post?

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

Already been there and done that. I worked in a fast food restaurant as a teenager. It was good money for the time. I've moved on to other things now as I've gotten older (much like most strippers will do when they get older too).

Re:Yawn

[easyTree]

It occurs to me that the more basic a skill someone sells; the more able the customers are to perform the task themselves, if they could be bothered; the more this is some form of emergent coercion / abuse by society.

Re:Yawn

[Thanshin]

Speak for yourself. I am a horribly oppressed victim of society.

Well, except for right at this very moment.

Now I'm a just slightly oppressed victim of society.

Re:Yawn

[attentat]

Nah, those lap-dancers are prolly lucky if they get paid at all.

Re:Yawn

[Enderandrew]

I actually tend to agree. Especially consider the massage business. A person is paid to perform a service in which they physically interact with you to provide relief of muscle tension and physical enjoyment. Tell me again how this is so different from prostitution?

I have problems with underage prostitution. But I don't think the government should tell consenting adults how they can have sex, period.

Re:Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boohoo, I get tons of cash doing what I moderately enjoy.

We're not talking about crackwhores or sexual slavery here.

Re:Yawn

[Blakey Rat]

But it's pretty common for guys to head to a strip club after a business meeting.

Where are you? I've never heard of this happening in the Seattle area-- I've heard jokes, but never have I heard of it actually happening.

Re:Yawn

[Dragonslicer]

Especially consider the massage business. A person is paid to perform a service in which they physically interact with you to provide relief of muscle tension and physical enjoyment. Tell me again how this is so different from prostitution?

Well, sexual activity tends to have more negative consequences than getting a massage, especially for the prostitute. It's usually difficult to get pregnant or catch HIV from giving a massage. Of course there are ways to reduce those risks, but they're a relatively recent development, so it may take a generation or two for the idea that pregnancy and disease can be reliably prevented to embed itself in the social consciousness. I'm certainly not trying to be Puritanical about it, I'm just pointing out that the negative consequences of sex require that you be a bit more careful about it than you would be with other, more mundane services.

Re:Yawn

[dkleinsc]

Already been there and done that. I worked in a fast food restaurant as a teenager.

No, you haven't, if you were living with your parents when you did that job. Or if it was a few decades ago when the minimum wage was significantly higher in real dollars.

The "making a living" standard probably should include paying for the following:
- A place to live.
- Food to eat (unless given away by the restaurant, which they will sometimes do).
- Clothes to wear.
- Transportation to and from work.
- Basic utilities: electricity, water, and heating.

Re:Yawn

[jtheisen]

Who modded this troll?

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

It sounds like you have more issue with what the minimum wage is set at, rather than the job itself. I did the same work as any fast food worker does (and I think you'll find that a large number of those employed in that industry are teenagers still living at home).

If you're merely talking financial though, then that's a separate issue, and applies only to a limited subset of the jobs that I listed - and relating to the discussion specifically, it's an issue that has nothing to do with strippers, as they generally make quite a bit of money. Where I'm at at the top tier clubs they bring in $1200 to $2000 per night on the weekends, and usually half that during the weekdays. Most work 3 to 4 nights per week. At lower end clubs they make less (usually between 1/4 and 1/2 that much), but it's still quite a decent income.

Re:Yawn

[jtheisen]

That is not the reason, as there have always been more dangerous and maybe even more degrading jobs around. My personal, addmittedly excentric, theory is that puritan sex ethics are a form of socialism: You shouldn't leave to a free market what everyone desires so dearly.

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

Which merely means that it can be a hazardous job. That's nothing new. Most of my family works in construction, so that is one industry I can show as a prime example.

My grandfather was knocked from the roof of a small building by a crane. He was in a full body cast for the better part of a year afterwards, and though he survived, he walked with a terrible limp for the rest of his life. When he was younger he also fell from a bridge as it was being constructed, but he was near the shore where it was sloping back down, so it was a short fall into the marsh grass and he escaped injury on that one.

A cousin has fallen through the boards of a temporary walk way cutting a huge gash in his side that required quite a number of stitches to patch up.

My dad, aside from countless small cuts and such (many requiring stitches), has been on a double-stacked scaffold that tipped over, resulting in him hitting his head and a terrible concussion. There was some nerve damage that has caused to top portion of his head to go numb - he can't feel anything there anymore.

Another cousin was working on the roof of a building (it was actually a Wal-mart) and just lost his footing and fell, hitting his head on the pavement below. He wasn't so lucky and ended up passing away later that night.

It's a very, very risky industry, but at the end of the day there are still people willing to accept those risks and do the job. Society shouldn't be stepping in the way of that. Regulating safety precautions (as they do with OSHA), but not declaring that a willing worker should be legally unable to perform a job for which there is certainly a demand.

Re:Yawn

[Dragonslicer]

That is not the reason, as there have always been more dangerous and maybe even more degrading jobs around. My personal, addmittedly excentric, theory is that puritan sex ethics are a form of socialism: You shouldn't leave to a free market what everyone desires so dearly.

Yeah, that's a pretty eccentric idea. A much more reasonable one is the expression "If it feels good, stop." My first guess is that it may have been an effort by some early Christians to separate themselves from the more hedonistic Greek and Roman cultures; doing something just to be different than a competing culture happens fairly often through history. I wasn't trying to say that pregnancy and disease are the reasons that certain religious types dislike anything sexual, just that there are legitimate logical reasons for treating sexual relations with a bit more caution than you would treat the kid running the cash register at McDonald's.

Re:Yawn

[Dragonslicer]

It's a very, very risky industry, but at the end of the day there are still people willing to accept those risks and do the job. Society shouldn't be stepping in the way of that. Regulating safety precautions (as they do with OSHA), but not declaring that a willing worker should be legally unable to perform a job for which there is certainly a demand.

No disagreement here. When it comes to construction, the precautions you can take, such as tying yourself to some part of the structure to prevent falling to the ground, have been fairly well understood for a long time. Reliable prevention of pregnancy and disease is relatively new (something on the order of 50 years or so?), so for a lot of people it hasn't quite sunken in yet. Hopefully attitudes will change as it slowly becomes an accepted fact through the entire population.

Eh, who am I kidding. There will always be nutters that insist that if it feels good, you have to stop.

Re:Yawn

[Enderandrew]

And all those independent contractors on the second Death Star where killed when Lando Calrissian blew it up.

Re:Yawn

[Vladimus]

I can't speak so much about the Seattle area, but I've definitely seen it with execs in the Southern U.S. and in the San Francisco Bay Area, though not so much in geek circles. A former roommate and a relative of mine would go all the time as part of their corporate jobs; hell, they were even told to use some of their company-alloted budget to do it. Even at a small (20 employees) company my bosses would go and sometimes take clients during lunch or at the end of a day.

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

It's been in the southern US that I've seen it too. I've been invited to go along in both Atlanta and Charleston (SC). Went to a place on my own in Columbia (SC) when I was attending some training for a week and wearing a polo and khaki's I felt downright underdressed - the entire place was in suits and ties (which can be a bad thing in a strip club as often the better dancers will congregate around whoever they perceive to have the most disposable income on-hand). I've seen similar situations elsewhere.

If you want to see the concept in action, take a visit to one of the better clubs in your area during the week. On the weekends it's often the drunk crowd - bachelor parties, college kids, and military (a lot of naval ships dock in Charleston and so a lot of the sailors hit up the clubs on weekends). On the weekdays however it's often guys just hanging out after work.

I mean really, trips to a bar tend to break down into two categories: looking for a hookup, or just drinking and having fun. The former is not the place to be at a strip club for, but the latter most certainly is. I mean heck, if you know how to limit yourself (ie, just tip the dancers, maybe getting one or two lapdances tops, rather than going in there and dropping hundreds and hundreds of dollars), and you're going out for drinks after work anyways, why NOT head to a bar that happens to have naked chicks dancing all over the place?

Re:Yawn

[attentat]

You know that how? Human trafficking is a problem in Taiwan and just because they are only giving lap dances in the photos we see doesn't mean that's all they are doing, in general or at the convention.

Re:Yawn

[BitZtream]

I have done both, and have no problem leaving my desk and being a cook again. I'm not that good at it, I'm far better at programming (not that I'm good, you just REALLY don't want to eat my cooking!) so I try to stay in development.

I will, however, gladly 'degrade' myself to working in the back of a McDonalds if it means having a job rather than not having a job. Most people will do the same the instant they aren't being supported by someone else and your food supply becomes directly related to your work output.

Re:Yawn

[BitZtream]

And you can do ALL of those things on FAR LESS than minimum wage.

It may require that you give up some of the more pleasant parts of living the good life, but all of them are possible.

The irony in your ignorance is that you probably use services from people who make less than minimum wage and are happy to send more than half of their paychecks back to their families to support them.

You are spoiled and think 'making a living' is something its not.

There is no excuse for any American to go without the things you mention. NONE. There are reasons Americans don't have those thing, it usually revolves around being lazy or refusing to work a job that is 'beneath them'.

I, less than 5 years ago, held a shitty fast food job, had my own apartment, my own car, my own cloths, and paid my bills. I was living in a 1 bedroom apartment with a 5 year old car and my cloths weren't made of silk, but I most certainly made a living and supported myself.

You are a lazy spoiled brat who seems to fail completely how raising minimum wage only effectively lowers the value of those people making more than minimum wage.

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

Hacking is also a problem all over the world yet we don't immediately assume that all the regular attendees at such a convention were black-hat evil doers.

Anytime you assume the worst and declare something inherently wrong because of something that just might maybe be true we take one step further towards the ultimate nanny state that we generally dislike on Slashdot.

The reality is that tons and tons of women voluntarily go into jobs in the sex industry. The pay is excellent and the work isn't particularly physically nor intellectually demanding. There is a good deal of mental stress, but plenty of other industries share that burden. Even some who are trafficked are fully aware that they'd be working in the sex industry - it's merely the circumstances that shift once they're trafficked (ie, they're told they'll be working as a regular prostitute, but are then trafficked into a situation where they can't leave and don't get to keep their earnings. that's not to say that their fate is any less unfortunate, but merely illustrates that many women are willing to take up such a trade).

As a matter of curiosity, when the US began it's civil war, did we attack the concept of picking cotton? Tobacco? Any other institution that invariably linked back to slavery on the US? No, we attacked slavery itself. If you want to stop trafficking, then attack TRAFFICKING, not an industry that happens to be often related.

Re:Yawn

[easyTree]

Yah; that's what I'm saying.

Re:Yawn

[Follier]

Tell me again how this is so different from prostitution?

If it's done right, it's not.

Re:Yawn

[easyTree]

The reality is that tons and tons of women voluntarily go into jobs in the sex industry. The pay is excellent ...

I find it revealing that the thought most closely associated with willingness is pay. You didn't say, for example:
"tons of women voluntarily go into jobs in the sex industry. The sense of satisfaction from their interaction with the customer and excellent health benefits attract them in droves."

Re:Yawn

[MBGMorden]

You're being delusional if you think that anything other than pay is the motivational factor in taking up almost ANY job. Sure you have the rare exceptions - professional athletes (even many of those want the pay though), scientists, artists, etc, but the majority of people are doing something for a living that they wouldn't dare bother with if it weren't for their paycheck. I work in IT. If it wasn't for the pay they could shove this job - from an enjoyment status I've probably rather be raking leaves all day, but that won't buy the things I want, and so I do something that will.

Re:Yawn

[easyTree]

Umm, isn't job satisfaction traditionally one of the factors in employee happiness? Yes, I can see that you're not saying that but for those that think ahead, maybe this also plays a part when they're selecting a career/job ?

Anyhow, the thrust of my argument is that women go into the sex industry because of cash, which is (presumably) disproportionately higher than the level of skill needed, would indicate. You're now kind of saying "yeah, sure but it's like that for all jobs."

Anyway, blah blah, it's now days later and probably the 1.3 people that originally cared have lost patience with this thread? :D

never apologize for sex

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Yahoo should be like, "F**k yeah! We have lap dances at our events." I say this because the last time I apologized to a girl for kissing her, she dumped me for being such a woosy.

Moral of the story: NEVER apologize for sex.

Re:never apologize for sex

[commodore64_love]

wussy (wimp plus pussy) - And your girl was just using an excuse. She had already made-up her mind to dump you several days prior.

Re:never apologize for sex

[caffeinemessiah]

I say this because the last time I apologized to a girl for kissing her, she dumped me for being such a woosy. Moral of the story: NEVER apologize for sex.

I think it's safe to say that there's a substantial percentage of readers who are wondering: what is wrong with you? And also, kissing is not sex.

Re:never apologize for sex

[schon]

kissing is not sex

Not true - kissing *can* be sex, depending on where it is. :)

Re:never apologize for sex

[idontgno]

I think it's safe to say that there's a substantial percentage of readers who are wondering: what is wrong with you?

Then a substantial percentage of the readership doesn't recognize "playing hard to get", AKA "coy". It can be a good strategy when applied appropriately. In this case, as long as the mood is right, and the apology isn't particularly sincere. And accompanying a sly smile.

OTOH, if the apology is breathlessly panicky and flop-sweatingly sincere, then "what is wrong with you" is entirely apropos.

kissing is not sex.

In the immortal words of lolcat, "ur doin it rong"

Re:never apologize for sex

[Thanshin]

She had already made-up her mind to dump you several days prior.

When he apologized for kissing a different girl.

Re:never apologize for sex

[Coren22]

Just ask Clinton. He learned that the hard way.

Re:never apologize for sex

[yurtinus]

Now you're just talking crazy. This is somebody on Slashdot, the odds against him kissing *one* girl are high enough. Two within several days? I can't even fathom.

Re:never apologize for sex

[geekoid]

And she was right to do so.

Re:never apologize for sex

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Kissing a different girl?

Sorry, but we are still on Slashdot, aren't we?

Apologize?

[jacob1984]

Why?

Re:Apologize?

[corbettw]

For not announcing the dances ahead of time so more engineers could plan on attending. Duh.

Re:Apologize?

[BenEnglishAtHome]

Why?

Because they got caught. It wouldn't do to have a good time and then be unapologetic about it. We live in more enlightnened times, now, doncha know?

Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Cthefuture]

Who the hell would want a lap dance on a stage in front of tons of people. That would be awkward and unpleasant even if you liked lap dances from strangers (rubbing their diseases all over you, heh).

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[1WingedAngel]

Me, you insensitive clod!

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Red Flayer]

Who the hell would want a lap dance on a stage in front of tons of people. That would be awkward and unpleasant even if you liked lap dances from strangers (rubbing their diseases all over you, heh).

Some people actually dig that sort of thing.

In my case, it would be awkward only because I'd feel guilty about making all the men in the crowd feel inferior because of the size of the bulge in my pants.

(No one needs to tell them that I stole a paper-towel tube from the kitchenette just prior to the lapdance).

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[jim_v2000]

If you notice the other people you're doing it wrong.

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[kalirion]

Yeah, that's what she said.... and now I have a record.

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Hurricane78]

Uuum, must be a really sad sad life you live, with views like "Being in the center of a group, leading them, is oh so horrible!", "I don't like lap dances, even from really hot strangers." and "Ewww, humans! They could give me diseases!".

Maybe you just never really get any of that... ...then again, it may be, *because* you act like that.
(And the circle closes. ^^)

*Live* your life! You only got one! :)

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Hurricane78]

Oh, I take it, that you never tried a lap dance with too tight underwear... right?

By the way: How do you feel the rub, if the towel is between you?

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Kozz]

Who the hell would want a lap dance on a stage in front of tons of people. That would be awkward and unpleasant even if you liked lap dances from strangers (rubbing their diseases all over you, heh).

Haven't been to many bachelor parties, eh?

Re:Lap dance ON STAGE?

[Cthefuture]

I could see doing it in front of a bunch of people that were explicitly there for a sex show or something but not in front of a bunch of fellow tech dorks there for a tech show.

I have no problem with my girlfriend doing a lap dance for me. I like it and I would even do it in front of people in the right situation (see above). I don't mind one bit all the guys drooling over a girl that is with me.

Frankly strippers and the like do absolutely nothing for me. They are not attractive in the least. They epitomize the superficial fake world that many people live in. They are payed to dance on you, they don't want to be with you, it's all lies and that is a huge turnoff. To put it another way: I care about content and quality, not presentation. Be we know what side you fall on. :)

that will make you yodel

[circletimessquare]

ya-HOOO-WOOO-OOO

http://yodelstudio.yahoo.com/us/

Where's the problem?

[beefnog]

Maybe I'm a bit jaded or detached, but I fail to see how offering lap dances is fundamentally different from offering free beer. It's cheap fun, and some people may find it morally objectionable, but in the end not a single attendee is going to end up bumping uglies with one of the dancing girls. Had the cheerleaders for an NFL team been there in tight shirts and tiny skirts waving pompoms nobody would have said a word.

Re:Where's the problem?

[PalmHair]

... I fail to see how offering lap dances is fundamentally different from offering free beer...

I am heterosexual and I definitely see the difference.

Re:Where's the problem?

[beefnog]

Would you please explain the difference? Nobody forces you to do either. They're both morally objectionable to various groups of people, but not universally so.

Re:Where's the problem?

[sarahbau]

I don't find lap dances morally objectionable. If this were an after-event thing, and they had entertainment for ALL of the attendees, not just the heterosexual men who enjoy lap dances, then it might have been OK. I think what's worse is having scantily clad women in the brainstorming sessions. At best, it's distracting. At worst, it makes people uncomfortable (especially any women who might have been attending). Since this is Slashdot - Yes, there are women here, and yes, there are women programmers.

Lots of guys here are saying people need to lighten up about it. Next time you're in a meeting, hire a couple male strippers to walk around and grind their crotches against the back of your head or something. See how comfortable you are with that, and how productive the meeting is.

Re:Where's the problem?

[FrigBot]

Me too. And, they're not cheap...

Re:Where's the problem?

[Shikaku]

WHOOOSH

(hint: sex of lap dancer)

Re:Where's the problem?

[Sobrique]

That's just supply and demand economics - they're expensive _because_ they're censured. It's like why an ounce of weed costs a lot more than an ounce of wheat, despite growing in a field.

Re:Where's the problem?

[FrigBot]

Your reply actually has given me a less cynical/depressing viewpoint from which to consider the topic of lap dancing in general. (Thanks for that.) Up to now, because of my past experience with that "service" I had maintained the view that the dancers and club owners existed solely to remove as much money from your wallet in the most sneaky, underhanded, slimy way possible. But the case that's being discussed right now in this forum is different: This didn't happen in Alberta, it was in Thailand or something, and I bet those girls didn't get paid nearly as much as what girls here do. It does seem wierd to us that an event like this would have included lap dancing. But then again, I'm (we're) looking at this from the point of view of a North-American (probably), where norms are different from where this took place.

Re:Where's the problem?

[PylonHead]

But you also provide soft drinks... Bring on the go-go boys!

Re:Where's the problem?

[amplt1337]

Had the cheerleaders for an NFL team been there in tight shirts and tiny skirts waving pompoms nobody would have said a word.

Um, no.

Women (try talking to one sometime) are very widely offended at the whole phenomenon of Booth Babes, scantily clad spokesmodels, etc. The difference with this is that because it was lapdances, it actually makes the news.
It's just as hostile to the women who want to be treated as colleagues (instead of sex objects) to have micro-bikini models hanging around, but that won't make the papers.

Re:Where's the problem?

[geekoid]

I don't really care what the sexual preference of the person giving the lap dance is... oh wait, do you mean gender?

If there is a group that doesn't like it, i suggest they not partake.

Re:Where's the problem?

[McGiraf]

yes, me to i'm tolerent of different norms when they differ from my culture norms but not to my personal norms.

Are you ok with other different norms like say, child labour, slavery, stoning of alduterous women?

Re:Where's the problem?

[Xtifr]

oh wait, do you mean gender?

Unless he's referring to an adjective or noun, I highly doubt that he means "gender". Words have gender, people have sex.

(Ok, that's a bit of prescriptionist view, albeit a well-supported one, but even from a descriptionist view, "Sex" can refer to physical plumbing or societal role, so your attempted distinction there isn't valid no matter what.)

Re:Where's the problem?

[Demonspawn]

Men (try talking to real men sometime) are widely offended at the whole phenomenon of women demanding that the entire organization conform to their standards, and actually get away with it. The difference is the law unfortunately supports these women rather than telling them the logical truth: their emotions are their responsibility.

It's just as hostile to men who want to be treated as men (instead of woman-slaves) to have to constantly dance around women's sensitivities rather than getting real work done, but that won't make the papers.

Re:Where's the problem?

[amplt1337]

It's just as hostile to men who want to be treated as men (instead of woman-slaves) to have to constantly dance around women's sensitivities rather than getting real work done

Umm... since when is getting a lap dance "real work?"

I mean, it's delightfully inflammatory for you to claim that all these awful female sensitivities are getting in the way of Progress, but so far the examples I've discussed are lap dances and booth babes. Do you have any better ones?

And what are these confounded "standards" women have that are crimping your workplace style?

Re:Where's the problem?

[bkr1_2k]

Maybe women in the US are, and that is very dependent upon the woman I might add, but in cultures where bar dancers are commonplace most women don't even notice them... any more than the men do. This is a non-event in so many ways it's appalling that anyone gives a shit.

Re:Where's the problem?

[Demonspawn]

It's just as hostile to men who want to be treated as men (instead of woman-slaves) to have to constantly dance around women's sensitivities rather than getting real work done

Umm... since when is getting a lap dance "real work?"

Lapdances, like booth babes, draw eyeballs and attention to the event. Seriously, haven't you women figured out that having the world revolve around you isn't a great idea after prohibition? But no... everything has to be done according to your standards, doesn't it?

I mean, it's delightfully inflammatory for you to claim that all these awful female sensitivities are getting in the way of Progress,

You haven't read the reports that as more women enter a job field, the status of the field goes down and the pay decreases? Women want different things than men do. Men, on average, want jobs with higher pay (sacrificing working conditions) women, on average, want working conditions (sacrificing higher pay). Once women enter a job field, they force the field to have better working conditions via lawsuits and other legal pressure, and the pay goes down for all workers. Women attempt to turn whatever job they are in into a cushy job. That's definitely in the way of Progress.

Yes, it's inflammatory, but truth that politically incorrect often is.

Re:Where's the problem?

[mdarksbane]

SOME women are offended by these things. SOME women find them amusing, or have no real opinion.

Now... that doesn't mean that if you want to attract those women to an event, you shouldn't do things that will offend them. But that's universal logic, not something specific to half-naked women.

Re:Where's the problem?

[tilandal]

Whats the difference between free beer and free lap dances?

#1) Every event I have ever been to that offered free beer also had a variety of other drinks for people who don't like beer or don't consume alcohol.

#2) I have never been to a professional event where watching people drink is an acceptable form of entertainment.

#3) If you don't drink you can simply decline. If you don't want to watch a lap dace the best you can do is leave the room. That's not, in my opinion, a reasonable thing to expect people to do during a conference.

#4) It is socially acceptable to have a few drinks in a public setting while having a lap dance is generally not.

I have no issues with adult entertainment. I don't buy the line that it is exploitation but things have a time and a place and a developers conference is not it. I am sure there was more then one person there who did not appreciate it. The fact that no one stopped to think that it may not be appropriate for the venue shows at very least a lack of taste from the event planners.

Re:Where's the problem?

[amplt1337]

Lapdances, like booth babes, draw eyeballs and attention to the event.

The relevant people were already going to this event. They probably would've attended whether or not there were sex workers present. In any event, that isn't "getting real work done." It's marketing. You're changing the terms of your argument.

You haven't read the reports that as more women enter a job field, the status of the field goes down and the pay decreases?

Why no, I haven't. Kindly cite one or two. (I assume you're already aware of the persistent wage differential between men and women who are doing identical work.)

I understand your point about pay vs. working conditions, though I think you're overstating it; to really prove a harm done there, you'd have to show that the hourly rate of pay under the "cushy" conditions was less than the "life-eviscerating" conditions. Personally, I'd have been a banker, if I could've made my own choice between "100-hour weeks making $300,000" and "50-hour weeks making $150,000." In any event, I think that part of the sickness in American culture is that far too many of my fellow men would rather be married to their jobs than have lives outside the office.

Re:Where's the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, me to i'm tolerent of different norms when they differ from my culture norms but not to my personal norms.

Are you ok with other different norms like say, child labour, slavery, stoning of alduterous women?

The difference is blurrier than you portray. How do you differentiate between a norm that is truly personal, and a cultural norm that has been driven deeply into you? Put another way, do you think you'd have such a personal aversion (or any personal aversion) to stoning adulterous women if you'd lived in a culture all your life where that was not only accepted, but seen as the only way the families of said women can regain their "honor?"

I've noticed a trend of people--even otherwise intelligent and free-thinking ones--not deviating very far from the religion they were raised in. They'll tell you it's personal, but is it? Do you really think they'd have arrived at the same "personal" beliefs if they'd been raised in a different religion?

Of course, the deeper question here is, what makes a norm personal as opposed to cultural? Just because you can move to a different culture and disapprove of what they do, does that necessarily mean your norms are your own?

It's even worth asking whether any norm CAN be personal. What meaning do norms have outside the context of interacting with people? Does it matter how you dress, how you hold your eating utensils (or if you even use any), where you relieve yourself, etc., if there's no one else around to judge you about it? Ever read about feral children? Their "norms" tend to be far different from those of people raised in societies.

Re:Where's the problem?

[geekoid]

in some countries, in the country this happened it's no big deal.

Why are the offended at the choice some other women make?

Why do you think I would treat a colleges the same way I would treat a stripper? I ahve many female colleges and I have never tried to put money in their pants.

I don't treat my co workers like sex object.

'Hostile workforce' is less about hostile workforce and more about control what people who have a different view on the subject.

Re:Where's the problem?

[geekoid]

Your post widened the topic.

"It's just as hostile to the women who want to be treated as colleagues (instead of sex objects) to have micro-bikini models hanging around, but that won't make the papers."
That's what he is responding to.

Re:Where's the problem?

[McGiraf]

I did not imply where my norms come from.
Of course they come from wath I experienced , how I was raised, what I read, etc ...

Re:Where's the problem?

[Demonspawn]

It's marketing. You're changing the terms of your argument.

Marketing is the work being done.

Why no, I haven't. Kindly cite one or two. (I assume you're already aware of the persistent wage differential between men and women who are doing identical work.)

Really, doing *identical* work? You'd have to cite that, because that's BS. The wage gap exists because men and women don't do identical work.

I mean, honestly, if I could pay a woman 75% of what a man earns and get identical work, would I ever hire a man again?

As for the studies: I'll have to get back to you on that. I don't have any more time to spend looking for where I found them. Funny thing was that it was a study "proving" that women are discriminated against because as more women enter the field the job goes down, but instead it simply proved that women force the job to become more cushy.

Re:Where's the problem?

[kramulous]

My wife took me to a strip club for my birthday, got me drunk, bought me a lapdance and then took advantage of me.

Most women that I know realise that there are women that don't do much for their liberation. They are ok with it and accept it and enjoy it for what it is. Just as there are men who pretend to be bigger feminists than women and in doing so look stupid.

Re:Where's the problem?

[CAPSLOCK2000]

The unspoken assumption is that the man will do the job better.

Re:Where's the problem?

[amplt1337]

Really, doing *identical* work? You'd have to cite that, because that's BS. The wage gap exists because men and women don't do identical work.

I mean, honestly, if I could pay a woman 75% of what a man earns and get identical work, would I ever hire a man again?

See, this is actually the Libertarian explanation for why wage discrimination (of any kind) can't happen. Yet it does, both on gender lines and on race lines.

Your "why would I hire a man" point is actually very relevant for certain fields of work that have cottoned on. For instance, it is very rare to see male junior editorial staff in publishing, and or male career paralegals (as opposed to those who treat it as a stop on the way to law school). This is partially self-selection because of expectations within the industry (in terms of how you'll be treated, i.e. as subservient), but the wages have become depressed such that men are never hired, and ultimately stop applying.

Now it's a fair argument whether that means "companies intentionally don't hire male applicants because they'd have to pay more" or "companies have decided to pay less, driving away male applicants" but the effect winds up being the same. (And before you tell me it's women in those industries who've depressed the wages with their quality-of-life demands, these are not fields that are especially cushy... career paras work plenty of overtime, and depending on the company, editorial assistants can also work insane hours.)

On a separate note, on the "cushy" thing -- you realize that traditionally female-dominated fields like teaching and nursing are really rough jobs, right? And that women generally do a disproportionate share of child-care, and so may be obliged to work fewer hours, rather than being lazy (as you seem to imply)?

Oblig. Bloodhound Gang reference

[LizardKing]

Personally, I always prefer a lap dance when the stripper is crying.

Re:Oblig. Bloodhound Gang reference

[geekoid]

I just about sprayed a mouthful of bagel.

Re:Oblig. Bloodhound Gang reference

[skiman1979]

and she has about as much teeth as a jack-o-lantern?

Remember!

[lupinstel]

No penetration testing in the champagne room!!

Re:Remember!

[lupinstel]

Security was tight; so nobody got to root their boxes.

New proposed functions for YUI

[Anonymusing]

.stripper(): slowly removes the HTML elements of your page, revealing something naughty underneath.

.poleDance(): automatically adds a vertical navigation bar to your site, then teases you when you want to click on something

.Titillate(): a replacement for .Console(), to make sure the programmer is, um, "properly aware" of script feedback

Re:New proposed functions for YUI

[linguizic]

.stripper(): slowly removes the HTML elements of your page, revealing something naughty underneath.

.stripper(): slowly removes the CSS to reveal the nasty xxxhtml underneath.

Re:New proposed functions for YUI

[Nyckname]

Don't forget the slot to feed the bills into, to keep the strip, er, script running.

Must not read Fark before Slashdot

[The Archon V2.0]

Because I read the headline as some hick/yahoo stumbling onto a hack event and being offered a lap dance by... someone. It was dredging up some incredibly disturbing images that were half Deliverance and half cosplay gone horribly horribly wrong.

Re:Must not read Fark before Slashdot

[Nebulious]

I think for the next April Fool's day, Slashdot and Fark should merge into one messy, horrendous website.

Re:Must not read Fark before Slashdot

[not-my-real-name]

Please don't give them any ideas!

Re:Must not read Fark before Slashdot

[The Archon V2.0]

Please don't give them any ideas!

Please, no. The collision between Farkers and Slashdotters would play hell with the universe. On the other hand, if there's someone that Drew and Taco want knocked off the Internet but hard, they could do it and post the link on the front page of the combined site.....

best publicity!

[Necroloth]

I've started seeing Yahoo advertising on roadsides and there may well be on tv (I hardly have time to watch anything 'live')... but isn't this an excellent PR stunt? How many people are actually offended by this?! Who are they apologising to?! In the meantime, all red-blooded males would tip their hat or nod in the most awesome approval and want to come to the next session!

Re:best publicity!

[Necroloth]

So children were reading a news/techy sites? Erm, surely it's up to the parents what their children are reading on? And if a site has this as news, I'm sure parents would have a whole lot more to worry about to explain to their children.

Re:best publicity!

[VoidCrow]

I thought it was sordid and naff, and makes you 'red-blooded males' look like the sex junkies a few of you unfortunately are. It's your choice if you want to participate in this kind of pavlovian shit, clearly.

Re:best publicity!

[Necroloth]

but do you take offense at those that would go to a lap dance place? There was nothing compelling people to stay behind and watch this, much like going to a party where lap dancers/strippers are hired, you can turn away if you like but are you offended?

Huh?

[MightyMartian]

Apologize for what, not inviting me? Bastards.

Yahoo lives up to their name

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't called Yahoo! for nothing!

And so?

[Vinegar Joe]

In June go to Computex in Taipei.......lots of hardware and scantily dressed Taiwanese girls. A geek paradise.

http://www.computextaipei.com.tw/

Re:And so?

[Skippyboy]

If any of you have ever been to a CiscoLive Networkers conference, you would say it is pretty mundane... Until you get to the BlueCat booth. This year (2009 in San Francisco) they had a blonde in a shiny silver VERY TIGHT body suit, with no underwear. How do I know she had no underwear? Well.. um.. diligent observation... I must say I was shocked! Shocked so much I went back daily to see if they were still perpetrating this outrage!!
(Really - this girl was hot!)

The Fucking Crybabies

[NoYob]

Because, there was probably this one fucking cry baby who either said that they were offended about it (they may not have even been there) or worse, they said that someone might be offended and they should apologize - exactly who, they couldn't say but there's someone.

It's like that awesome SUV ad that also had an Energizer ad in it. It showed the Energizer Bunny going and going and then this big SUV runs it over. Way Cool! But this cunt of a housewife with waaayy too much time on her hands, writes a letter to the Energizer Company and the SUV maker on how her child might see it and other children might see it and it would be "bad" for the kids. (Her kid has grown up to be a big wussy).

There seams to be this problem where if folks are offended walking away, turning the channel, ignoring it, or whatever is beyond them. Everyone else has to change their behavior to suit these people.

Being offended is nothing but a power trip. Being offended allows you to make others change.

Rant over.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[L0rdJedi]

Per the article, which I know no one reads, the guy that made the remarks has a blog at http://simonwillison.net/

He may not have been there, but his point is that for an industry that's always trying to attract women, this is the wrong thing to do. Not to mention that even if it is culturally accepted in Taiwan, some developers may be morally opposed to this.

So we shouldn't be surprised when women don't want to enter the IT and Computer Science fields because they see it as a male dominated field. Images like these reinforce that perception. If you want more women in the field, do things that attract them. Don't trot out booth babes like it's an anime/gaming convention or a car show.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[yurtinus]

So you're saying he's offended on behalf of other people? How generous.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[i0lanthe]

I think females decide pretty early on (like grade school) whether they want to enter math / science / technical fields. That part needs fixing if we are going to continue to change the gender proportion. However, having decided to enter CS, I sure as shooting would not work for, support, or attend companies/organizations/events where stuff like that happens. I'm sitting around thinking "how about equal pay for equal work" and they're thinking "how about free lap dances!" Not a match made in heaven when I could work for a company NOT run by (apparently) cavemen who are thinking with their stones.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[geekoid]

Please, that;s stupid.
A) No one was forced to
B) Anyone could ahve gotten one
C) It's socially acceptable there.

Seriously, people need to grow up an realize that if it doesn't impact them they need to ignore it.
What next? no one can eat meaat at work because it might offend a vegan?

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[pete-wilko]

Disappointed had to read this far down to find this comment. The dis-proportionality in gender ratios in IT for western countries is pretty demoralizing. Having said that there are greater balances in developing nations. To perpetuate a culture which discourages 50% of the population from looking into IT as a career path means we are missing out on some pretty good talent.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[skiman1979]

Which is why the next Blackhat and DEFCON should have diamonds as free gifts for events such as 'Spot the Fed'.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[Vladimus]

Hm. Depends on the girl. My girlfriend complains that I don't go to strip clubs and buy her lapdances.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[stephanruby]

If you want more women in the field, do things that attract them.

The female programmers I know can't get laid either, so I assume your suggestion is to just start bringing in some male strippers as well.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[BitZtream]

some developers may be morally opposed to this.

Cry me a river. Everyone morally objects to something someone else does, get over it. No one was harmed. No one did anything against their will. There were no guns to heads.

Anyone who has a problem with this event is the exact kind of uncultured intolerant person that I personally have no need to work with, male OR female.

I'm not changing my ways to appease someone else because they 'dont like' some aspect of the culture of the field. If they want to be in IT they can adjust to the IT field. As they join the IT field will change based on the ratios of what people prefer.

Real women (just like real men) have no problem entering a hostile field without whining and bitching. What you are doing is attempting to change a field, to encourage more people to join it, but the people you are encouraging don't WANT to join it. You want to change the field to get what YOU want, not what women want.

Not EVERYTHING has to have a perfect balance based on sex or race. Differences between sex and race AND CULTURE will ALWAYS result in less than a perfect balance. Thats not a bad thing, thats reality and you need to check it out.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[pinkushun]

Very, very good point. On a related note: They could've used the stripper money to hire chip 'n dales for the girls instead.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[BitZtream]

Replying twice to the same post, but something struck me:

but his point is that for an industry that's always trying to attract women

You are confused, you think that a bunch of geeks who are socially inept who would like to have more women in the office to hit on and learn how to hit on, want women in the field.

They don't want women in the field, they want women in the office, that they can talk to and socialize with, as they utterly fail to do so on their own.

They'd be just as happy with doctors, secretaries, or prison inmates if they were women and would talk to them.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[bennomatic]

Ignore the other idiots who responded to you. Your post is right on.

Re:The Fucking Crybabies

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear lord - I'm a woman, in IT, and it being male dominated (seriously, sorry if it hurts your egos, but most IT guys really aren't intimidating) just isn't the reason. A few half naked girls are far more awkward to be around for the guys than me (I see more female flesh than that on display in the gym changing rooms every day)

Most girls just aren't interested in this kind of job, I'm normally the only female dev, and any other females in the office are in admin and happy with it.

In taiwan, pretty girls dressed in very little really are culturally acceptable. In my office in Malaysia one of the guys would have phone calls discussing what he was getting up to at the weekend (or had got up to), invited my boyfriend to a 'spa' once, and there were no complaints. My Caucasian boyfriend however had numerous compaints against him, despite being a total sweetheart because they found his face scary (it's a normal face, just very expressive compared to an asian guy)

Yahoo and privacy

[Krneki]

Again a great idea implemented poorly.

Give people some privacy ffs! Having your shit posted all over the Internet is lame.

Re:Yahoo and privacy

[fiannaFailMan]

Again a great idea implemented poorly.

Give people some privacy ffs! Having your shit posted all over the Internet is lame.

Ever since cameras became small, cheap, and embedded in every phone, "privacy" is a thing of the past. Further reading: Google Abu Ghraib.

Re:Yahoo and privacy

[Krneki]

And how about getting those hookers to dance in private rooms?

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Maybe they didn't mind. The more interesting question (yeah, I know... *yawn* - maybe only to me) is whether they should mind; whether they would have minded if they didn't have some internal rationalization along the lines of "... I can relax my principles / boundaries a little and get paid (substantially?) more than I could doing something else, w00t!".

I'm not a prude by any stretch but believe sexuality is there to be enjoyed not sold. Underlying this is concern about the corrupting influence of power expressed via money; the willingness with which the almost literal underclass performs any bizarre act requested, even implicitly, by their (literal) corporate overlords...

Pictures...

[jeffshoaf]

Pictures or it didn't happ... Oh, wait...

embarrestment ?

[prozaker]

you have all wrong, this is a WIN
I'm gonnna do all my next 10 searches on yahoo just for that

that's feminism circa 1960s

[circletimessquare]

the new feminism is about self-empowerment

such that grad students who work in strip clubs are seen as feminist icons: its all about exploiting silly weak men for lots of their cash by doing nothing but shimmying around

and no, that doesn't mean the new feminism is the same as pre-feminism. because the feminist who strips is CHOOSING to strip for fun and titillation (pun intended), rather than being FORCED to do it for economic difficulties

not that women aren't forced into exploitation for economic difficulties anymore, i'm not describing reality. i'm describing philosophical trends in feminist thinking. in feminist thinking, porn actresses are the new pioneers

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[Sulphur]

Porn actress overlords?

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[swb]

Mod parent up.

The old, Andrea Dworkin, men-hating, anti-pornography lesbian feminism is over. As it turns out, the philosophy really was driven by the psychology of angry lesbians who could only find empowerment by striking at heterosexual women capable of controlling their sexual destiny.

Diablo Cody, screenwriter of "Juno" is the exact personification of the new feminism. Stripper, writer, she's "in control" of her sexuality and is fine with using it for *her* own ends, even if on the surface it appears to be just furthering the old stereotypes. That doesn't matter because the men are really the manipulated victims (paying for sexual titillation) and the women are in charge.

Excuse me, gotta run, I have an English Lit class.

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[fredjh]

You're right.

Yahoo shouldn't have to apologize. They only reason they are apologizing is because people are complaining, but as you rightfully point out, people shouldn't be complaining to begin with.

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[TheLostSamurai]

in feminist thinking, porn actresses are the new pioneers

Oh, so NOW we find out what your low budget Filipino movie really is.

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[maxume]

I don't know, a couple of years ago, I decided it must be some sort of time lapse gimmick.

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[mqduck]

You've never actually talked to a feminist, have you?

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[Elky Elk]

I think I saw that film.

Re:that's feminism circa 1960s

[Labcoat Samurai]

Funny. When I go to a strip club, I don't *feel* like a manipulated victim. I voluntarily part with money for the privilege of enjoying womens' bodies. Seems like a pretty fair exchange of payment for services to me. I mean, I'm not being misled, and I feel that the exchange is worthwhile, so I don't see any exploitation going on.

At least no more than a restaurant exploits your desire for food or an amusement park exploits your desire for wholesome entertainment and cheap thrills.

Also, I'm not sure how much the women are in charge. That's like saying that your maid is in charge because she receives money for doing your laundry. Sure, she can quit if she doesn't like her situation, but the universal currency is not sex or laundry, it's.... currency, and the person holding the cash is the person in charge. Not to contradict the notion that a woman who strips is taking charge of her own sexuality and using it for her own gain. That absolutely is happening, but the notion that men are weak and helpless victims is laughable.

So sorry .. not love you long time :-((

[OzPeter]

So says Yahoo execs falling over each other to appologize

It is Taiwan....

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

... There it is considered positively old fashioned and prudish to stop with just lap dances. The competition is sure to be offering a lot more.

Re:It is Taiwan....

[Anonymous Coward]

... There it is considered positively old fashioned and prudish to stop with just lap dances. The competition is sure to be offering a lot more.

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

Re:It is Taiwan....

[Hurricane78]

You mean they're not like Japan, with rubber pussies and school girls' panties, sold from vending machines?

Swordfish reference?

[moviebrain]

Was this just a homage to the movie Swordfish and a few prudes objected? Seems like blogosphere overreaction fluff...

Red tape

[Crashspeeder]

Clearly the only reason this is a big deal is because somebody at Yahoo circumvented the required paperwork in order to use the company testicles.

Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[kevjava]

in the Information Technology field? This might go some way to explain it.

Did Yahoo not think that women engineers would be present at this event? They make up roughly ten percent of engineers as a whole. Furthermore, did they think that there was some way that women attendees would be perfectly comfortable watching other women objectified on a stage?

It's not that I mind women being objectified for money -- the women involved are handsomely rewarded for their parts in this business deal. I do mind people in my field saying that they do everything they can to make women comfortable in our field, then turning around and saying that they don't understand why anyone would be offended by this.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Knara]

I find that a lot of women not only find strippers entertaining, but thoroughly enjoy the boobage.

This seems to increase in prevalence as intelligence increases, however. And as we all know, just because someone is in IT, doesn't mean they're intelligent.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[mdm-adph]

Did Yahoo not think that women engineers would be present at this event? They make up roughly ten percent of engineers as a whole. Furthermore, did they think that there was some way that women attendees would be perfectly comfortable watching other women objectified on a stage?

Hell, there's women present in some of the pictures from the event -- I would love to hear their thoughts on this and what it was like being there.

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/12454_large_Yahoo_Hack_Event.jpg

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Pvt_Ryan]

ahh but what you have to remember is that the majority of devs are male. The majority of devs also like women. We live in a world where the majority once ruled the minority (I say once as lately the minoritys seem to be getting their way all the time). It saddens me that they have to appoligise for offending a few people when it is likely that the majority of people there had a good time and enjoyed it for what it was a PR stunt.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Larryish]

More likely to be jealousy disguised as disgust.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Jearil]

Actually there was someone there who interviewed a bunch of the women hackers at the event. A lot of them thought it was funny watching the awkward guys up on stage going through having a girl dance next to them. Even more said they didn't even notice what was going on on stage. Apparently the dances only happened twice during the multi-day event and each dance was for about 5 minutes.

There's been a lot of outcry from women in the US about it, but none of the women who attended the event had anything negative to say.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[that IT girl]

Heck, I'm a woman and I think it's kind of funny, albeit inappropriate. Not necessarily an event I'd want to be at while this was going on--simply because lap dances and this kind of sexually charged thing is generally considered part of one's personal life, and this was a business/professional event. Some women and and even more privately-minded men would feel uncomfortable. If a man wants to go to a strip club, that's his business and I personally have zero problem with that. It's just not really appropriate for this event, in the same way that overt sexual advances, talking at length about one's sex life, etc are not appropriate for the professional office.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Anonymous Coward]

I neither wonder about nor care in the slightest if women are uncomfortable with the IT field.

I suspect that they are equally nonplussed by my discomfort in any field that they might find to be of interest.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[gmuslera]

Well, in that event probably the women were the ones that remained intelligent while that was happened, Wonder how much hours passed before any of the men tough again on coding or whatever was being promoted day.

Oh, wait... "Open Hack day" gives a hint. Well, we have another trend in security. Is not open source security, is not security by obscurity, is security by lapdance, no straight men will try to hack yahoo while it is being performed (in fact, will turn into whitehats to make yahoo keeps doing those performances)

I for one, welcome our new security female lapdancers overlords.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[cpghost]

Furthermore, did they think that there was some way that women attendees would be perfectly comfortable watching other women objectified on a stage?

We're not in the 60ies, 70ies or 80ies mindset anymore. Gender doesn't matter w.r.t. on how to view the show. Some male attendees may have considered this degrading for the dancers, while some female attendees may have enjoyed it. Who knows?...

... and, frankly, who cares? All this being much ado about nothing.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Knara]

I for one, welcome our new security female lapdancers overlords.

While I found much of your post hard to comprehend, we can agree on this part.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Princeofcups]

in the Information Technology field? This might go some way to explain it.

Did Yahoo not think that women engineers would be present at this event? They make up roughly ten percent of engineers as a whole. Furthermore, did they think that there was some way that women attendees would be perfectly comfortable watching other women objectified on a stage?

It's not that I mind women being objectified for money -- the women involved are handsomely rewarded for their parts in this business deal. I do mind people in my field saying that they do everything they can to make women comfortable in our field, then turning around and saying that they don't understand why anyone would be offended by this.

I find this very presumptuous. There are plenty of women who enjoy other women, and men who enjoy other men, and people who enjoy both, and people who enjoy neither. The person's genitalia has little to do with it.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[FrameRotBlues]

Have you ever been to a strip club? If not, prepare for your mind to be blown:

10-25% of the patrons in any strip club are female. Usually they come in with their significant others, but not always - sometimes they're loners, sometimes they're in a caravan of females (batchelorette parties). I would be willing to guess that per capita, the percentage of women at the event that found it offensive would be the same percentage as the number of men.

That doesn't say whether this event was right or wrong, I'm just saying that I don't believe gender plays that much of a role in it, or that every woman would have been offended by it.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Hatta]

Why should anyone care that there were women there? Would men have cared if there were male dancers for the female (or gay) attendees? If you're male and would have objected to that, you're a jerk and should stop interfering with other people's fun. Same goes for the female attendees. I don't think there's anything sexist about that.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Locke2005]

Right then... so if you are strolling through the park and don't want to see my naughty bits when I flash open my raincoat, you should just leave!

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Locke2005]

The real problem is there is a time and place for things, and this sort of event is neither the time nor the place for half-naked women shaking their half-naked bits in front of you. You'd be surprised how often my wife tells me that exact same thing!

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Hurricane78]

Uuum, who said that women would not get lap dances by men? Have you ever seen women, when a hot lap dancer is around?? They are even worse than men! And I really like them for it! At least one thing where they act like natural humans.

And about the technology field. Get this into the distorted reality in your head: Women don't like engineering!!
Sure, there are exceptions. But women simply like other things. Because they are women!
Why would they have to run after male ideals. (Engineering as a ideal job for your life, is a male ideal, by the way!)

The best way to see what genders like, is to look at the smallest children, offer them toys for both genders, and see what they prefer to play with.
They actually tested this. And boys simply like to build, while girls like to care for others.

The only really weird thing is, that "building" somehow is seen as better than "caring". And the weirdest thing is, that the most hard-core feminists strongly support this very male-centered view on ideals.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[ZekoMal]

-raises hand- I'm a woman and I woulda loved to go. Just sayin'.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[demachina]

"Wonder why women are so uncomfortable in the Information Technology field?"

My theory is that women shun the tech world because they tend to have more common sense than men. Other than maybe during the tech bubble it is generally a pretty shitty career path. There are a few rock star geeks who get rich but its mostly the sales, marketing and MBA types that make it to the top of most companies and make most of the money. Most techies get a wonderful life of deadlines, death marches to meet schedules and bug databases. Lately they get the wonderful opportunity to compete for jobs against people in China, India and Eastern Europe making a couple dollars an hour.

I tend to think women should be gleeful they were driven out of tech for the most part so they could focus on careers that don't suck like business, marketing, sales, law, medicine, etc.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[billcopc]

No one is holding a gun to these women's heads. They willingly engage in sexually suggestive behaviour in exchange for money. It is a perfectly legal thing to do.

Would you react differently if they had been male entertainers ? Now, now; don't be a hypocrite!

In the end, Yahoo hired "booth babes", like we see at every other tech event, where they are usually tasked with holding up some new gadget or delivering a marketing pitch. If you're so opposed to the practice (I am, though for entirely different reasons), why don't you go harass the E3 and CES organizers and participants too ? Why only Yahoo ?

You talk about women not being comfortable in our field, presumably because the guys are socially inept or even hostile. What about men being uncomfortable, from having to work with other socially inept guys ? I don't need someone to flirt with me, in order to think of them as pathetic self-centered losers. Women can be unpleasant too, you know. Sex/gender has nothing to do with it. I don't care what a coworker has between their legs. I don't go to work to get laid; I go to work to get Paid. The lack of women in my workplace doesn't have any adverse effect on my productivity.

Political correctness is bullshit.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Explodicle]

You did read the part where he said "The people involved were not breaking any laws", right?

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Anonymous Coward]

Every single one of us "objectifies" ALL of our sex partners or potential sex partners at some point in time. Women are "objectified" as a comparison to other available members of their sex or gender, as a part of an evaluation we MUST go thorugh and are ENTITLED to go through as one of our basic delights in the choosing of the direction of our future genes.

Women who are initially objectified for their looks don't stay objectified for long, unless the man doing the choosing is vapid. But the tendency to first judge women visually is innate to the male and only a country full of neurotics like ours could find a way to take issue with that most basic of evaluations which is the very reason we are all here today. You will probably live to 80 because a thousand of your ancestors objectified your female ancestors to make sure they weren't turning their family tree into a stump with disease and inferior genetics.

Not only that, but when you are judging a woman based on her looks, you are judging a lot more than just some random lottery of "fuckability." You are judging her self-esteem, outlook, pride, exercise habits, eating habits, courage...it's not 100% accurate but girls who look good usually end up that way because they have their shit together, which makes them attractive. So "objectifying" a woman based on looks is really more trying to get a read on whether she is about to crash and burn, or whether she is a rising star who will be uplifting to associate with.

What's more, women objectify men all the time, but far less press is paid to the objectification of men as "success objects." A girl says she wants to marry a DOCTOR, and noone is there to scream at her "That is objectifying men! Think of the poor garbage men whom you are ruling out, you insensitive clod!"

I take issue with neither form of "sexist objectification" myself. I feel people's romantic, genetic and breeding choices are deeply private and none of my business.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[BitZtream]

Yes. I know plenty of women who go to strip clubs with their male friends.

ESPECIALLY in someplace like Taiwan where this is entirely socially acceptable behavior.

Knowing the culture of the area you live in helps before you start talking about how people there should feel, especially if you're going to project your own culture onto them.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[StormReaver]

> This might go some way to explain it.

If these women continue to lack a sense of humor, let's hope they stay out of Information Technology.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[that IT girl]

That makes sense. While the appropriateness of it *is* debatable, the culture is different over there. People in this country would be better off just not having an opinion on it really.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[BitZtream]

So you are using us Department of Labor stats to talk about something that happened in Taiwan ? Talk about ignoring scoping issues.

This post isn't insightful, its misleading. You're applying American culture and statistics to a country on the other side of the planet. This sort of ignorance is why we, as Americans get referred to as completely uncultured twits. Please stop talking about how things are 'wrong' parts of the world you probably can't even find on a map without names printed on it.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[BitZtream]

A 'hack' is not always security related. A hack is generally a quick fix or dirty fix to make something work the way you want it to regardless of how it was designed, intended to work, or currently functions.

Hack generally applies to what happens during a security failure, but it is not exclusive to security.

I've done plenty of hacks in my career, both with computers and completely unrelated to computers, none of which have been related to breaking someone elses security constraints without permission.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[DrCode]

Maybe they should have had male dancers offer lap-dances to the women.:-)

I went to a dance festival a few months ago where they offered a 'lap-dancing for men' workshop, and women were invited to be the recipients. I attended this, expecting that there would be lots of men but few women willing to be our 'partners'. Turned out I was wrong, and there were more women than guys. Even though we weren't generally a group of hot men (... I'm a middle-aged software engineer), I was suprised to find that such a large number of women wanted lap-dances!

And BTW, lap-dancing is hard work! My legs were sore for 2 days afterwards.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[Areyoukiddingme]

It's been five hours since this was posted, and it's been modded up to +4, and there's not one single reply disputing the possibility that a woman posted to Slashdot. Not one "there are no women on the Internet" response.

I'll be darned. It IS possible for a slashdot cliche to die. Who'd have thunk it...

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[indiechild]

That shouldn't be surprising really. What woman wouldn't like to be pampered and be the object of a man's attention for a few minutes?

And besides, it was a dance festival. Not an engineering sausage fest. I bet dance festivals tend to have more women than men in general anyway. Most women love to dance.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[kramulous]

Lawyers are even worse. Once, when I used to live with a bunch of lawyers, a girl from one of their offices (contract lawyer) was so into porn that she used to come around to our house and bring her weekly favourite movies, put them on and proceed to tell us which bits were her favourite. She loved watching female orgasms. She would have been a lot of fun.

My point is, let women make those decisions. Let women take offence if they do so and let them take action if need be. Men that take that line just look ... desperate and hopeless.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[dangitman]

A lot of them thought it was funny watching the awkward guys up on stage going through having a girl dance next to them. Even more said they didn't even notice what was going on on stage.

How is what the women said about these activities not negative? Funny is laughing at awkward people? They didn't even notice what was happening on stage? Come on, it's a stage. If people don't notice what happening, that's not a good thing. A stage is supposed to draw attention.

Re:Wonder why women are so uncomfortable...

[SanityInAnarchy]

And about the technology field. Get this into the distorted reality in your head: Women don't like engineering!!
Sure, there are exceptions. But women simply like other things. Because they are women!

Bullshit. And I'm a guy.

The differences are largely cultural and stereotypes, which you're helping to promote:

Engineering as a ideal job for your life, is a male ideal, by the way!

Why must this be the case?

The best way to see what genders like, is to look at the smallest children, offer them toys for both genders, and see what they prefer to play with.
They actually tested this.

It still doesn't show a fundamental difference. For example, I bet girls like pink and boys like blue, but that's taught to them practically from birth -- in many cases, their first room is going to be full of blue for boys, or pink for girls.

The only really weird thing is, that "building" somehow is seen as better than "caring". And the weirdest thing is, that the most hard-core feminists strongly support this very male-centered view on ideals.

"Better"? I wouldn't say that...

Who was well known for caring? I can think of a few names off the top of my head -- Mother Teresa, Gandhi...

Now, who was well known for building, well, anything?

Can you name even one?

I mean, physicists come to mind much more rapidly -- Einstein, Feynman, Hawking...

If you count software, there's Linus... and RMS, but he's not really famous outside his field... and... uhm...

Maybe it's just me, but it seems very much to me that caring is seen as much better than building.

The difference is the scale, the amount of ambition. Tim Berners-Lee changed the world with his software. Gandhi changed the world with his caring... but being a stay-at-home mom isn't changing the world, and it certainly doesn't make you Gandhi.

I don't mean this as a slight against stay-at-home moms. I'm just saying, feminism used to have a point -- the appeal of wanting to create something larger than yourself is not a male-only thing. Where the hard-core feminists lost their way is in assuming that any girl who actually wants to be a stay-at-home mom has been brainwashed into that point of view -- and to prove the point, there are men who are stay-at-home dads.

Back to your point: It may very well be that women don't like engineering because they don't like engineers, not because they don't want to be one. There are many factors, but I think it's largely momentum. Engineers are seen as geeks, and find it harder to meet women in the first place. A woman shows up in the workplace, the engineers already know she's smart and they'll share some common interests, and she's the first woman they've seen in awhile...

So, she's going to get hit on a lot. Uncomfortable at best. So she'll tell her friends about it, and the stereotype of engineers being pervs is perpetuated. Eventually, she quits -- or if she doesn't, her friends never become engineers -- so "women don't like engineering" is perpetuated.

This vicious cycle continues until you either get a woman with tough enough skin to handle it, or a group of engineers who have collectively grown enough maturity to treat that woman with respect. Even here, it will take decades of things like this happening to reverse the study, to slowly bring more women into the field.

So I agree with you about the lap dancers, somewhat. But I do think that some things have to change if we want more women engineers -- and we do, if for no other reason than that it increases the number of potential engineers, meaning we'll hopefully get better ones.

PC BS

[ILongForDarkness]

but you shouldn't need to apologize for doing something that both those that choosed to partake presumably enjoyed and that is legal. Sorry if it offends you but bite me.

Re:PC BS

[MozeeToby]

What about the women in the crowd? Did they choose to watch it or was it forced on them if they wanted to take part in the conference. I for one, would really like to be able to talk to a member of the opposite sex about my work. And don't say that females aren't interested in engineering because I have lots of female coworkers in the 40s, a handful in their 30s, and virtually none in their 20s. And when crap like this happens, I understand why. How would you like it if you went to a major, professional conference for your dream job and their were male exotic dancers on stage? Maybe you're the exception, but the vaste majority of guys would be quite uncomfortable.

Re:PC BS

[ILongForDarkness]

Some people don't like drinking so should there be no alcohol too? How about no beef, wouldn't want to offend the hindus in the crowd, of course can't have pork either because the jews and muslims would be offended. People spend way too much time being offended by what other people chose to do rather than spending their time fixing the problems in their own life. It's just way too easy to point the finger at someone else and tell them they need to fix their behavior than to actually have to work to change your own.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[eln]

Why should they have minded? Because, in your opinion, sexuality is to there to be enjoyed not sold? Why should their sense of shame or morality have any relation to your opinion? What makes you so special?

I'm not a big fan of strip clubs, and I personally find the whole concept of selling sex as off-putting, but I'm not going to go around saying people who do it should feel ashamed of themselves. You assume they are relaxing their own principles or boundaries in exchange for money, when in fact in many cases their principles and boundaries are simply more permissive than yours. I accept that some people have more liberal boundaries than my own. However, when they're doing things that, ultimately, don't hurt anyone, I can't justify getting offended by it, and I certainly can't justify trying to get anyone to feel bad about it.

damn right, they should apologize!

[macbeth66]

I did NOT get a lap dance, and I am mad as hell!

Why on earth are they mad...

[Pvt_Ryan]

I wish my company would pay for me to have lap dances..

Re:Why on earth are they mad...

[cryfreedomlove]

Do you wish that your daughter's company would pay for lap dances for the male employees?

Re:Why on earth are they mad...

[Locke2005]

Only if they pay her to do the lap dances.

Re:Why on earth are they mad...

[Pvt_Ryan]

i have a son and it wouldnt bother me as long as she wasnt the dancer.

Is that an actual picture from the event?

[thisnamestoolong]

If so -- I would be horrified, not only by the fact that I am getting a lap dance in front of a huge crowd of people, but even more so by the fact that what appears to be a naked Mr. Burns is watching over my shoulder.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Who mentioned shame? I enjoy driving a car but I don't want society to make it disproportionately attractive for me to do it for a living.

Stating the obvious...

[jjoelc]

I don't believe nobody else has said it yet... It was the only way they could actually get a room full of geeks to all shout "Yah-hooooooo-ooo!"

3 Questions

[AP31R0N]

1) Like the boobies said, "Why wasn't i invited?"

2) Why is at capitalized in the headline?

3) Did anyone else read the headline as "Someone offered lap dances to Yahoo at hack event"? Most /. headlines use passive voice (which i despise) so that's how i read it. /better when the stripper is cryin'

Sigh

[Locke2005]

I'll bet they wonder why they have so few female developers...

Re:Sigh

[geekoid]

Since no one was forced to have a lap dance, give a lap dance. or not allowed to get one due to their gender, what does it matter?

Re:Sigh

[BitZtream]

Funny, seems the women who attended the event thought it was pretty funny to watch the awkward guys on stage not knowing what to do with the women in their face.

Did you get that part? No? Didn't read anything more than the summary eh?

There were female developers there ... having a good time ... The thing is that the just weren't American women, which are so sexually repressed and frustrated with themselves that they can't appreciate any situation which involves a women using her assets to their advantage if it involves physical attributes.

Whats fucked up is that American women are their own worst enemy.

Do you see guys bitching about male strippers? No, well okay, but only out of jealously.

Men are 'objectified' in the same way constantly. We appreciate it, enjoy the praise, and are more than happy that someone else appreciates what we have. Women in most of the rest of the world feel THE SAME WAY.

Its only in America where women get pissed off because another woman is using her abilities. In America, you are only accepted by other women if you shoehorn yourself into doing something you aren't really that good at.

Okay, so thats false, most women in America don't give a damn about this either. Its just the few loud mouths that get attention and the media promoting it that are a problem. I personally don't think I've ever met a woman who truly had a problem with strippers. I honestly don't think I've met a woman who hasn't considered BEING a stripper, including women who are now doctors, lawyers, and a VP of a rather large marketing firm in the US.

Its okay that you don't understand it, if you had some women as friends it would help you out a lot.

Re:Sigh

[ShiningSomething]

Well, if the only dinner option had been a bacon cheeseburger, I expect Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu believers would think the company doesn't really care what they feel. Sure, they could skip dinner, but conferences are about networking and building relationships. The same goes for the lap dance. It's basically assuming that only straight men will be present, and if there are women, then they can go do whatever they do and leave the guys to have some fun.

Cool?

[rnturn]

When were lap dances at a technical conference ever considered "cool"? And what's with the pudgy Bender character? The whole event seems a lot more creepy then cool.

Yahoo's response

[Locke2005]

"Due to the complaints about the entertainment at this years event, next year we will only be offering hookers and blow."

Re:Yahoo's response

[stakovahflow]

I am so going to work for Y! But Google lets you bring your dog to work... Darn those decisions...

Re:Sorry? What the hell for?

[Mashiki]

Fair comment. I was talking to my best friend about this her main complaint mirrored the comments of the women who attended that event. Where were the guys for them? Really, I think we've come far enough that most people shouldn't really give a shit over it anymore.

Myself I take this rule: No harm, no foul.

I hope to god they contracted out....

[Sir.Cracked]

From the pic on the article, It looks like they did, but my first thought on seeing this was "I hoped they contracted with professionals rather than having in-house employees do this!"

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[lymond01]

It's interesting. Selling your body for sex is sort of like selling your body to give someone the satisfaction of punching a person. I think the problem some people have with it is that it's cheap. It requires nothing beyond yourself, physically speaking, and plays to a client's most basic urges.

Depending on who you are and why you're selling yourself, it may not be cheap emotionally. But, like joining a company that asks you to write PHP code instead of Python, you learn to shutdown mentally and do what you have to do. ;-)

How many people wish they had said

[geekoid]

"Screw you. Some people like lap dances so they got one, and we're not apologizing."

Re:How many people wish they had said

[that IT girl]

Yeah, bottom line is that's about what they should have done. Especially since it's Taiwan.

In related news...

[TaggartAleslayer]

In support of Yahoo's Hack Day lap dancing success, Microsoft plans to send Steve Ballmer around the nation to spoon with potential Bing developers.

Re:In related news...

[will_die]

Microsoft actually did something similar close to a decade ago.
During COMDEX,Las Vegas, they rented the little white church to have thier geek party, back when they where fun. Part of the show was they had females who would marry anyone who wanted and Microsoft would pay for the annulment the following day.

Cunning!

[slashmojo]

This must be how Yahoo plans to combat the yahoo-->google brain drain - a cunning plan indeed!

Clearly you can take the conference out of vegas but you can't take vegas out of the conference.. ;)

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[geekoid]

" sexuality is there to be enjoyed not sold. "
why? Everything else is.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[geekoid]

Why not? some race car driver make huge amounts of money. If people wanted to see you drive and were willing to spend 250 bucks an hour to do so, what's wrong with that?

I guess I missed out on the good stuff

[hamburgler007]

I was at the NYC open hack a few weeks ago, nothing like that there, very nicely catered though.

Ob. Kids in the Hall

[Anonymous Coward]

Kevin: I'd like to begin the presentation, but first, THE WHORES!

Dave: WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?

Mark: THIS IS HIGHLY IRREGULAR!

Bruce: JAY!! This is not how we do business here!

[...]

Bruce: We'll have the presentation. *Then* we'll have the whores!

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

That just doesn't work for me. Some things are not for sale.

Re:Sorry? What the hell for?

[ChienAndalu]

Yeah, why bother with professionalism at all if the attendees are obviously all sex-starved single geeks who think getting a boner from watching a chicks ass in public is "sexual empowerment"?

You don't have to be a Christian puritan to have some notion of taste. You can be a secular atheist citizen of an "unrepressed EU State" and still have some concept of appropriateness.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

What's wrong is that my preference is to keep driving as something I do to get myself/friends/family from A to B.

If society 'emergently colludes' (*) to offer me a choice of abject poverty or drive a car for a living, that's wrong because it removes my choice to explore all the possibilities of which I am capable.

(*) I'm trying to describe a collective behaviour where it may be fair to say that there are no explicit choices to achieve a particular end by individuals but the appearance and effect is that of a group working together to achieve that end.

Epic fail for the apology

[$criptah]

This only shows that Yahoo is like a puppy -- eager to bark but not eager to bite. Show some balls and stop apologizing for something that is indeed pretty cool, out-of-the-box, and pretty damn creative for a tech conference.

First of all, this did not happen in a blue county in the United States. It happened in a country with a different set of norms. Have you ever tried doing business in Asia without entertaining your clients? If so, I'd be curious to know how that worked out. Every freaking meeting is a party! Secondly a lap dance is completely freaking harmless especially when the dancers are fully clothed and when they barely touch your body.

Well, it was a great idea but Yahoo did lobotomize it with the apology.

Re:Epic fail for the apology

[SanityInAnarchy]

I agree, except for the part where the lap dancers are all women. Way to keep the industry a giant sausage fest...

Not that I expect women would be comfortable with any lap dancers, even males, but that would at least make it work.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[madpansy]

I'm not a prude by any stretch but believe sexuality is there to be enjoyed not sold. Underlying this is concern about the corrupting influence of power expressed via money; the willingness with which the almost literal underclass performs any bizarre act requested, even implicitly, by their (literal) corporate overlords...

How did prohibition work for alcohol? Drugs? Does it work for sex? Banning what people want doesn't work, it only creates shortages and a black market to satisfy that demand. This means an illegal, unregulated industry with no protection for any party involved, leading to worse conditions for that "literal underclass."

Re:Sorry? What the hell for?

[Tetsujin]

Why can I watch someone get his head blown off on broadcast television, but adults have to say "Sorry" to other adults for offering them probably the best thing in the world, which is attractive females hovering above the crotch?

The best thing?

Naw, it gets better when they stop hovering...

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

You appear to live in the land of "what is, is right" or "popularity indicates correctness", which of course you're free to.

I'm simply stating my opinion.

Not that I do but if you have a, for example, four year old daughter. Take a look at her one day and consider all of which she is capable being swept aside in favour of her simulating a sexual act on stage for geeks, for money. To my mind this seems like a lost opportunity, despite the obvious charitable cause :D

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[ChienAndalu]

You live in a fantasy land. The number of women that do not sell sexuality, if not actual sex is in the fractions of a percent.

You are right, everybody has a price. Even you would have sex with a man for a million dollars.

TFA was presented to you by Yahoo marketing!

[Hurricane78]

Seriously. How fucked up of a society do you have to be, to feel a urge to apologize for offering free lap dances??

Everybody, who would, on response to "Free lap dances for EVERYONE!!" not go "NO thanks! This is disgusting!", and yet acts like this is some dirty unacceptable thing, is a hypocrite, and should just shut up!

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Not so much blinders as shades.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Note that I'm not mentioning banning. What I'm implying is that people should be free to use choice as the deciding factor.

e.g. "I don't have any pressure either way other than I want to more than I don't want to" - rather than the all-to-common "I can't make a living otherwise so I will..."

Until society stops 'accidentally' creating pressures which lead members of a ready-made underclass down certain routes, freedom of opportunity will continue to be the sham that it is today.

Slightly conflicted on this one, but...

[Veretax]

As a techie, and a bible believing Christian, I have conflicting feelings about this. On one hand my initial reaction was to think it was so outrageous, but then as i thought some more about it, how is this any different than the advertisements we get bombarded with on TV? I mean the first commercial I thought of is the Lady driving her cadilac, are they trying to entice you with the car? No they are trying to entice you by sublimally making you think hey, if I have a Cadilac I could have a hot gal of my Own driving with me.

I believe this is not an uncommon thing, I mean I'd wager that about three quarters of the ads I've seen on TV lately have some sort of sexual message to try and sell or attract their customers. How about those Go'Daddy Commercials, or the other ones that Danica Patrick is in, do you think they aren't trying to use 'sex' or 'sexual imagery' to sell a product? Of course they are, and many of us as human beings are drawn to that even if we have conservative values. So while I understand the 'outrage' some may have over this event, I'm kind of in the mind of saying, "So what? How is this different from the rest of the world and how they advertise their products and services?"

Embarrasment?

[LS]

Yahoo's latest embarrassment seems like a sign that the company is just trying too hard to be cool.

Wait, weren't we just trashing Microsoft for their goofy attempt at trying to be cool with their "party packs" and videos? This actually IS cool, yet they are trying too hard too. I guess you just can't win...

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

This. And the "They hate us, for our freedoms!" comment which is for once accurate.

Because really, feminism has mutated from defending women rights to attacking male nature, a good feminist should complain that there were no male strippers, not that they were female ones.

The geeks look embarrassed

[AlejoHausner]

Maybe it's just me, but the body language of the young men on stage is telling. The guy in the yellow shirt looks like he's clenching his fists. He looks uncomfortable. The guy on the left is going out of his way not to raise his hands. Plus they're on stage. I think they're not happy to be there.

Maybe they wish they were back in front of their terminals coding.

Alejo

before you apologize...

[sunyjim]

remember what Admiral Ackbar said... "It's a trap!"

Apologize!

[PPH]

For neglecting to invite me.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[jtheisen]

Slutty cheap PHP whores!

Big deal

[bkr1_2k]

For those who've spent any amount of time in Asia where there's any significant amount of cash, dancing girls are fairly common at bars, at restaurants, just about anywhere there are young men and women willing to spend some money.

Yahoo! shouldn't apologize for using local culture (even if it is scantily clad) to attract more attendees to its conferences.

Or maybe I'm just less of a prude than the people who are complaining about this?

Object oriented

[syousef]

Get the popcorn... this is going to be an epic thread. We've already had the "Wish I was there" post, it's time for the feminist wing to turn up. Oh the objectification!

It's not our fault. For years now geeks have grown up being taught that object oriented is the way to go.

no men

[poptones]

No, but there is a mini. Looks like our yahoo dancers are feminists, so what's the problem?

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[MarcQuadra]

I think you'd be -very- surprised by how wrong you are.

You equate selling sex to letting someone punch you for money. I see it the same as a construction job, where you sweat and work hard to deliver on your contract. Selling sex isn't the same as selling violence. Most sex work isn't violent.

I've dated a sex worker, and lived with another. Both enjoyed their jobs and made GOBS of loot.

One was a single 'cougar' who managed to pay off her house in three years, she was a nurse making $40K before, and she returned afterwards.

She said that it was great because you set your own hours and limits, there's security to make sure you're safe, and you get a hell of a workout dancing, etc.

I'm in a state where we're about to make indoor prostitution illegal (it's been legal here for 30 years), and my extensive research into the field has led me to believe that this whole notion of 'it's bad for you' is just not true. We have massage parlor workers testifying to keep their jobs at legislative hearings, we caught the Craigslist killer because the sex workers can call the police when they're abused or robbed, and we have virtually no street (read: crackwhore) prostitution.

Selling sex, for most of the people in the legal industry is a steppingstone between coming to this country poor and not knowing the language, to home ownership, and paying to raise your kids right or meeting a nice American to get married to.

Check out our site on the issue: http://citizensagainstcriminalization.org/

dude: taiwan is not the usa

[circletimessquare]

taiwan is not a horrible anti-feminist country like afghanistan or iran, but if a woman is stripping in taipei, she's doing it because of financial coercion much more often than for female empowerment. and i'm not saying that its true that if someone is stripping in the usa, it is only out modern feminist thinking. what i am saying is that you need to look at the real and exact status of women's rights in taiwan, officially and culturally before you say what you said

blame Taiwanese culture

[pikine]

If I were Yahoo's management, I'd reassign or fire whomever was responsible for it. They shouldn't be calling shots for events.

I too think the lap dancing is distasteful, but this is a fine example how corporate culture is heavily distorted by the country's own culture as well. I think Yahoo! Taiwan organized the event autonomously without any collaboration with the US head quarter, and that the US head quarter really has nothing to do with this.

In Taiwan, hiring scanty show girls for any event like trade show, religious celebration, new year, and funeral is very common. You even see that in weddings (especially in the country-side). Imagine how the bride feels about that!

Yet another embarassment...

[FirstTimeCaller]

for Microsoft marketing... Yahoo! gives developers lap dances, but what do they get from Microsoft? They get Steve Balmer prancing around the stage yelling "developers, developers, developers". I guess it could have been worse -- MS could have given them lap dances... from Steve Balmer!

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[lymond01]

I agree with most of your points but I think you misunderstood mine. The equation of sex and getting punched was merely the "primal urges" and that you don't need anything more than your body. I didn't for you to equate sex with violence.

geeks confuse me

[uniquegeek]

How can bright people who rise up in their field be so stupid when it comes to basic social logic?

(Granted things might be a little culturally different over there...)

Regardless where your position is on a feminist or decency angle, it's pretty obvious that it was not appropriate for the event. On a scale of "professional" events, this one seemed somewhat more on the professional side... in which case, this type of thing has no place there.

An example - a conference on a programming language... porn doesn't need to be on slides. It's not professional. It's not appropriate. If you have second thoughts and ask friends and your spouse whether you should, that in itself is a huge clue that maybe you shouldn't. Though many people were talking about the women & feminist aspect, I really think the biggest issue of all is geeks self-stereotying themselves as socially clueless people... and being obnoxious and loud about it (look at all the responses re: the ruby conference). Perpetuate that, and you perpetuate that we're the muling lackeys who work with the 'puters. It certainly doesn't portray us as professionals, or candidates for positions with more responsibility.

How can someone not get this? A lot of geeks really have mastered being so smart and so stupid at the same time.

Women are all about male strippers!

[GameboyRMH]

Not that I expect women would be comfortable with any lap dancers, even males, but that would at least make it work.

Get some women around some male strippers and they act no different than men. Hurricane78 concurs: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1414225&cid=29837131

Re:Women are all about male strippers!

[SanityInAnarchy]

The main difference is, women are more likely to complain about how this is somehow demeaning... to women.

That, and the challenge is to get them around the strippers in the first place.

Re:Sorry? What the hell for?

[VoidCrow]

Sexuality is natural, sure. However, it expresses in different people in different ways, and no, I'm not talking about gay v straight sexuality. I'm surprised that so few of you, all Slashdot jokes aside, seem to understand this...

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[MarcQuadra]

OK. Glad we're on the same page then.

Are waitresses also in that camp? I certainly get the 'primal urge' to eat several times a day, while my love life is more like... Well... I'm here posting on Slashdot.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[MarcQuadra]

Also, I take issue with people who think it should be disallowed because 'it's easy, anyone can do it'. The fact of the matter is that it's tremendously demanding. Sex isn't easy, and most people are terrible at it. Your clients want to pay for 'good sex', but they want it to last for a while if they're dropping $250 on it. These women have a physical and mental mastery of the art of sex, and an uncanny ability to be able to tame those 'primal urges' in their clients in order to get them to use protection.

The fact that legal sex work, even in an unregulated environment like Rhode Island, commands prices from $60 (handjob) to over $250 (full service). Given that well over half our population here is women, they must be 'experts' to be able to extract that kind of market power.

* disclaimer: I've never been to these places, but I know people who work at them, and I've done a -lot- of research recently.

Yes, I'm female. And this doesn't bother me

[Rastl]

Big whoop. Strippers and lap dances in a venue expected to be attended by males in a location where it's the norm to have such entertainment.

Had I been there I would have either found something else to do or be highly entertained by the idjits stuffing money into g-strings. Silly waste of money (imo) but if they can spare it and are enjoying the show then more power to them.

As I see it the "true feminist" is a person who believes that a woman has the right to choose how to live their lives. Some choose to enter the workforce, some choose to stay home and raise their families. But the important thing is that they have the choice. Incidentally those women who do enter the workforce should be paid the same as their male counterparts but honestly should that even need to be said any more? Either of the above listed choices should be highly endorsed by true feminists because the choice is available.

Did Yahoo do anything wrong? Nope. Not a thing. I haven't really searched but I'm not seeing a lot of negative comments from the attendees or the hired help. If they're not complaining why should anyone else?

Re:As Gulag U.S.A. Collapses

[Philip K Dickhead]

KILGORE! I LOVE YOU!

When's the sequel to Venus on the Half Shell going to appear?

harmless entertainment, who cares?

[strstr]

These companies need to stick by their actions. Coming out to apologize only gives the perception that something was done wrong, and gives the company bad press.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that this type of coercion ("abject poverty or sex work!") is actually happening.

You are mistaken.

I usually get..

[Virtucon]

I usually get just a Book Bag for going to one of these. I'm moving overseas!

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Firstly, you have no clue how I sound; this is a textual medium.

Secondly, nice attempt to divert what I'm saying into a game of insults; really; well done.

I can only assume that you're one of the people that profits from keeping things as they are.

Reality vs. Western morals

[ogreman]

Since when do USA cultural standards apply in ASIA? I mean come on, I'm sure the boys without girls were offered girls so they could feel good also..... And I'm sure the girls without boys were also offered girls .... When in Rome ..... This was only the public part, the private parts were probably much more fun .... Travel Asia for business ... good things do come and go...

How silly.

[cyn1c77]

Whatever. Not every country is as prudish as America wants to be. Nevermind all the dancers in cages at the Hollywood clubs.

Personally, the fact that they had "go-go dancers" just makes me respect Yahoo a little bit more. The fact that they don't have the balls to tell people who have a problem with it to fuck off makes me respect them a little bit less. All in all, it's a wash.

None of those women are free to speak...

[jeko]

Yeah, sure, the few women who've managed to get hired there are going to be just chomping at the bit to tell the world what stupid jackasses their bosses are.

The few women over there who have been interviewed are not going to commit career suicide by opening their mouths.

Re:None of those women are free to speak...

[indiechild]

If any of the women who attended spoke out publicly, they'd get flamed to hell and back. No thanks, it wouldn't be worth the hassle and harassment.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[BitZtream]

Anyone who says they wouldn't perform homosexual sex for a million dollars is either a lair, already has far more money than they need, or is just trying to make sure no one else finds out.

If you're offering, I'll do it for 750K Euros, or whatever the amount converts to in USD.

We're all whores, the only discussion is price.

Re:Sorry? What the hell for?

[BitZtream]

Interestingly enough, you won't find either of those living in Taiwan where this is considering completely socially acceptable.

Your concepts, culture and 'tastes' do not apply to everyone, especially everyone living several thousand miles away from you.

Sounds more like you're repressed and don't know how to deal with the issue more than anything else, especially since you've already admitted in another post you will be happy to function as someones sex toy for a million dollars.

Professionalism has a time and place and it generally doesn't share those times and places with people trying to have a good time.

You don't have to be 'professional' all the time, especially when you are somewhere that your definition of professional doesn't match with everyone elses.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Come back when you learn how to log in then maybe I'll consider your implications to have more weight.

Apologize for what?

[planetoid]

Apologize for a perfectly moral act between consenting adults? I'm not sure I follow. There's nothing to apologize for.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[WNight]

OMG! What if the cookies they served had gluten?! Or nuts? Then some people would not have eaten them!

It's not their duty to make sure everyone is satisfied. If they like strippers then watching strippers is something you have to do to work at Yahoo. But working at Yahoo, like eating free cookies, is a privilege not a right.

What if working at Yahoo required you to pretend to give a shit about tech? That's not very fair is it? How will jocks be programmers?

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[WNight]

All of which she is capable?

That's just the problem. To you those women on stage are already dead. They've made money for displaying themselves and like a bitter used whore, are just a shell person filled only with the pain of their abuse?

What if they look at the wage slaves whose laps they sit in with the same pity we look at a fast-food worker, or MCSE? They get to dance for a bit and go home. The non-sex workers have to stay for hours and pretend to care about the topic.

The geeks whose careers are settling around them with the finality of cement versus the dancers whose lives are just beginning.

You'd have a point if these women were vat-grown clones who'd be terminated if they didn't perform. The truth though is that they're free to choose and the ones who would be crushed by being there aren't the ones rushing to fill the job.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[geekoid]

well, you're a prude, and that's ok. You should not be telling others how to live though.

My mother ran a brothel, and I spent many hours talking to the girls. There all willing, and they all could do something else.

Sex isn't a mystical magical thing, it's something people and animals do for fun.

Re:As Gulag U.S.A. Collapses

[onemorechip]

sequel to Venus on the Half Shell

Why not?

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[Maxwell'sSilverLART]

So you think the taxicab (bus, trucking, etc.) industry is inappropriate or wrong?

On feminist zealotry...

[jonaskoelker]

I'm aware not all feminists are zealots.

That reminds me of a joke:

Q: How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: That's NOT funny!!

Apologies to all feminists who were offended by... no wait, if you're so up-tight you can't take a joke, screw you. If you just want equal rights for men and women and can take a joke, best of luck realising your ideals :-)

I think Yahoo should be applauded....

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

...for contributing to the education of such fine, flexible young women. "Do you Yahoo?" "Yeah, I Yahooed my way through college...."

My reaction...

[Lord Kano]

Please be hot asian girls...Please be hot asian girls...
-click-
Please be hot asian girls...Please be hot asian girls...
YES!

LK

Trying too hard?

[chicago_scott]

Yahoo's latest embarrassment seems like a sign that the company is just trying too hard to be cool.

Trying to hard to be cool would be working the topic of lap dances into a presentation. Actually providing lap dances... that is being cool.

you've never heard of diablo cody, have you?

[circletimessquare]

http://www.pri.org/arts-entertainment/movies/diablo-cody-on-horror-movies1622.html

No programmers without women

[MosesJones]

I've never understood this. You do realize, don't you, that without feminism, you wouldn't be a female programmer today? You'd either be a housewife, or a secretary looking for a husband so you can become a housewife.

Buzzzt! Thanks for playing, the correct answer is in fact

The first programmer (as opposed to hardware engineer) was Ada Lovelace (aka Augsta Ada Byron) who was a patron of Charles Babbage. This in an era WELL before feminism.

Grace Hopper, the creator of the term "bug", was one of the very earliest computer programmers and was leader of a team that was split 50/50 between men and women.

Its only SINCE the rise of feminism that IT has become more less of an aspirational profession as women have been able to take on roles in broader society and away from the historic meritocracies of science and engineering. It could be, and has been, argued that as women became more empowered and moved into the broader business roles that this impacted science and engineering which began to be seen as "male" roles rather than meritocratic. This is partly because in places like the US and UK the gold ribbon roles are things like business management, accountacy, law, banking et al and therefore aspirational women go for roles in those areas. In countries where science and engineering are still held with high regard (France for instance) the number of women seems (from having worked there) to be significantly higher.

There were female coders out there aplenty in the early days of computing, its only since it became mass market that the percentages have dropped way down.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Aren't car analogies supposed to be universally understood? :D

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

What if they look at the wage slaves whose laps they sit in with the same pity we look at a fast-food worker, or MCSE? They get to dance for a bit and go home.

Wouldn't that be just a little too convenient? What next? What if victims of assault secretly enjoy it?

You'd have a point if these women were vat-grown clones who'd be terminated if they didn't perform. The truth though is that they're free to choose and the ones who would be crushed by being there aren't the ones rushing to fill the job.

This is pretty much what I'm saying. The underclass consisting of those whose efforts are rewarded poorly, regardless of the employer, live daily on the edge of poverty/starvation. This is very close to termination. In such circumstances, someone offered almost any way out will take it; this is the choice you speak of, almost Hobson's Choice.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[easyTree]

Sex isn't a mystical magical thing, it's something people and animals do for fun.

In my experience, turning a hobby into a profession reduces the enjoyment quite noticeably.

Really?

[BenEnglishAtHome]

...actual feminists...the ones fighting for actual freedom (including the freedom to choose to be a housewife if that's what you really want)...>

It would be easier to agree with self-identified feminists if it were difficult to locate any so zealous as to say that any woman who chooses to be a housewife is some combination of brainwashed and/or simply an inferior human being, incapable of understanding the "real issues" and unworthy of respect.

But it's not.

I have known 3 women who openly held those views. I know two housewives who have told me (and I believe them) that they have been on the receiving end of such sentiments from other women on multiple occasions.

I don't buy the notion that "feminist zealots" are so rare that they should be discounted and that their views should not influence how we view the whole idea of "feminism." In my experience, they are too common to ignore. My experience is limited, of course, and I am a man. For those reasons, feel free to discount my statements. But I don't see objective data that leads me to believe I've seen some sort of skewed sampling over the last 3 decades, so I'll go ahead and hang onto my viewpoint that the publicly stated goals of most mainstream spokeswomen of the "feminist movement" are laudable and good BUT that there enough spite-filled wackjobs in the mix that "the movement" will never progress at the rate it deserves to.

Re:Well I guess its bad...

[WNight]

This is very close to termination. In such circumstances, someone offered almost any way out will take it; this is the choice you speak of

Do you choose to go to work?

Not just "do you occasionally like your job", but would you actually choose to cut short your family interaction, get up five days a week to a soul-crushing alarm, plan every major trip including for bereavement at your employer's whim, and so forth?

Dunno about you, but I do it for the money. Because I need food and shelter and net access.

That choice is simply called life.

Wouldn't that be just a little too convenient?

No, it would be about the only way it could be.

These women aren't slaves, anymore at any rate than everyone else trapped in the rat race. There are jobs open for mundane things that are hard to get and pay very little, then there are jobs for less common things that pay more. If those things don't bother you, why should anyone else care?

Even in fields (sky-diving, test pilots, etc) with known risks there are willing takers. Some people couldn't be paid to skydive, others spend their own money doing it. Women in some societies consider showing "western" amounts of flesh to be disgraceful ("You let people photograph you with your arms and legs visible?! Insane!") but a job modeling for Sears would be perfectly respectable in most places.

So it depends. Women who grew up around you and those like you, and who rely on you for other support probably wouldn't feel right doing this dancing because of how you feel. Other women didn't grow up with that, like it, love the money, and feel safe in doing so. Not just because of bouncers and such, but because they know their friends will see it as either no big deal or because they won't be judged for making an economic choice.