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Court Orders the Pirate Bay To Delete Torrents
lbalbalba writes "A Dutch court ruled today that The Pirate Bay has to remove a list of torrents linking to copyrighted works. The list is to be provided by BREIN (similair to the RIAA, in Holland), and is similar to the earlier ruling against Mininova. The defendants are given three months to comply, if not, they will face penalties of 5,000 euros ($7,500) per person, per day."
Delete them and let the users make new ones with the same content.
Just out of curiosity, what jurisdiction do the dutch have?
I'm pretty sure if someone in France decided to order me to delete something, I'd tell them to get stuffed.
.
What law do they have that says you can't _link_ to copyright material? The *IAA's are celebrating their victories lately... EU Amendment 138 : Killed. Pirate Bay: Offline. Three strikes Laws: Here we come EU, AU, .... Spokesperson for *IAA's overheard saying: "Try route around that damage, Ha!"
Why should we believe they won't be responding to this as they respond to all the lawyers who flex at them from across the sea?
seemed like piratebay.org was down last night, and trackers hosted by them were erroring out. anyone else notice this? i can't have been the only person trying to...err...evaluate some software.
The defendants are given three months to comply, if not, they will face penalties of 5,000 euros ($7,500) per person, per day.
Per person, per day? So in other words, if two of the three guys gets "laid off", they are reducing the grievousness of the offense by two thirds.
The only way to control this is by requiring users to have login names and controlling who can post what (perhaps instituting a probationary period of say 3-7 days so that they don't get spammed with new users).
Otherwise, this is just going to be a repeat of YouTube and other file sharing networks, copyright material still gets uploaded, even if it eventually gets deleted.
This is exactly why the Pirate Bay claims not to have any responsibility for the content on the site - they do not micromanage any of the who or what, they simply provide the service of hosting.
The PB should publish said list when they get it: It will be interesting to see which artists get mad when they realize they aren't being "protected', and who gets mad when they realize their publishers are suing their costumer base in their name.
What will I do with 3TB of Brianna Banks movies anyways?
I take it that the courts will be deleting the information on the link too, since that order is just a human-parseable version of the same link to the offending data as the one on the pirate bay.
If not, I assume that the court will pay a fine of 5000 euros per day.
Cool. I get to not go to france AND tell the court to stuff it!
The EU is more then just the economic union it was meant to be. It is being used a tool to make the most extreme rules of one nation affect everyone else, the content mafia happily exploits this by trying in all different countries at once, seeing what gets through and so affect the whole EU at once.
The EU powers happily cooperate, EU law should rule all citizens except those in power as was made clear today when Berlesconi was not chastised for his many crimes.
Seems hosting a torrent in another country is bad. Controlling all media in another country, that is that others country business.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Well that's all fine and dandy that the court orders them to do this. I hereby order them to bring me a cake on my birthday, too. What more authority does the Dutch court have than I? Even more importantly, perhaps, how do they intend to enforce the court order, even if they do have jurisdiction? I thought there was an article recently that TPB had moved their operations to some "untouchable" hosting facility somewhere. This is not like an international case against a large and established company with substantial assets in a particular location that can be seized to pay a judgment. These guys are as close to anonymous as you can get and still be an actual legal entity.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
In that case, they should link to links to copyrighted works. :-)
All kidding aside, this is so far the best response to piracy I've seen yet. It *almost* makes sense. Since they can't go after the people actually committing the crime, they order the informants to stop informing.
Translation: start mirroring all the torrents before they're removed. Hmmm, anyone got a .torrent of these?
What more authority does the Dutch court have than I?
Thay have the authority to determine what happens over in Holland.
Translation: start mirroring all the torrents before they're removed. Hmmm, anyone got a .torrent of these?
Search "pirate bay" on TPB with the "Other" box checkmarked, and you'll find some things.
sudo bring me some cake
sudo hurry up
sumo flattened
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
I guess they'll be ordering Google to stop allowing searches next, followed by Yahoo, followed by...followed by. When will these idiots ever discover a clue?
Confession: I've never actually used BitTorrent. Sad, I know. So my joke about it might be factually incorrect.
the Netherlands as well
I like this idea. Can a torrent that is merely a collection of other .torrent files be hosted?
It's like, I don't have movie X, or a list of places to get movie X, but here's a list of places that host a list of places to get movie X. Can they persecute a chain of inference?
The Pirate Bay has to remove a list of torrents linking to copyrighted works
Is there *anything* on TPB that's in the Public Domain? Since *everything* is copyrighted when it's created, what use is it including this in the summary?
It's not property and you, sir, are not an intellectual.
The very idea that something infinitely reproducible could be considered to have value is preposterous and flies in the face of call macro economic theory. Infinite supply results in infinitesimal value.
Eventually people will realize that what is being called intellectual property is actually the result of a service, then we will all be happier.
I want to pay the person who provided the service, but pretending that something ethereal is property is not the way to do it.
It is simple to create copies, people will continue to do it and the companies who fight it will lose potential customers.
Wake up.
We are willing to pay for the services rendered, but your prices are ridiculous.
As long as they live in the EU the Dutch authorities can get them. Other member states will simply carry out the court ruling, i.e. collecting the fines.
Comply, but with a caveat.
Let users upload torrent links, have them not searchable on the piratebay website itself, but let google index the piratebay. Thus if you search for a torrent, It shows up in google, but NOT AT the thepiratebay. org/.... url specifically. If you try going to the http://thepiratebay.org/path-to-torrent, it dead ends to a 404 error or something... Thus, google actually becomes the torrent 'server'.
Although that get's rid of the actual torrent files they could theoretically just have Magnet URI's on the site. I wonder if they could get away with it.
If I publish a list of titles of copyright materials, I can copyright it, and then prevent people from sharing that list?
In other news, is there a torrent of those torrents I can download?
Why can't thepiratebay use "but Google is doing it too" as a defense for why aren't they suing the biggest player? I mean its like they are extorting the little guy who can't defend himself to prove a point instead of attacking Google which actually has the legal might to defend itself.
It doesn't really matter if you get technical about it. As long as your intention clearly is to either do copyright infringement or aid in copyright infringement, no technical excuse will help you.
This is why The Pirate Bay lost in courts.
The DO link to copyrighted material. And quite a lot of it unauthorised copying (even if the unauthorisation is that the author is dead and can't give their authorisation and doesn't give a shit 'cos you can't spend money when you're dead).
So the comparison stands.
I can imagine it now: A torrent of torrent of .torrent files.
If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
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- Nicolas
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Am I close?
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Does BREIN have explicit permission from all the owners of the products in that list of torrents to act on their behalf in copyright matters, or are they breaking copyright law by unfairly asserting that right?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
- empty torrents
- torrents with viruses
- child pornography torrents
The fact that TPB suggested that they remove such torrents actually worked against them in this case; after all, it means they do perform (some) filtering.
Judgment PDF: http://www.boek9.nl/www.delex-backoffice.nl/uploads/file/Boek9%20/Boek%209%20Uitspraken/Auteursrecht/Rb%20ASD%20Neij%20-%20Pirate%20Bay%20%2022%20oktober%202009.pdf
Judgment HTML: http://zoeken.rechtspraak.nl/resultpage.aspx?snelzoeken=true&searchtype=ljn&ljn=BK1067&u_ljn=BK1067
Both in Dutch; I wouldn't rely on babelfish/google translate, and user-provided translations tend to be rife with inexact translations of legal terms... should be a proper English translation in due time.
I'll translate the section that mentions these active filter claims, however...
This is one of the findings under...
So as part of the findings of 5.9, determining whether TPB has acted illegaly against Brein, the active filtering issue has weighed against them; if they can filter those, then they should be able to filter torrents pointing to files of parties who are signed up with Brein.
No. TPB lost because of a corrupt judicial process and clear conflict of interest.
So...a judge has issued an order to delete content on a website not hosted in his country, for a law that doesn't exist... and is totally legal in the nation what it is hosted...?
From the jurisdiction of the supreme court of my living room--I'd like to offer a reward of $0.25 who enforces my decision to have the judge deleted.
Don't worry, no trial is needed in the principality of Anonymous Coward--random evidence, and the presentations of anyone are sufficient and permitted by my rules of evidence. You may notice my opinion changes from day to day, and even post to post. But hey--that's a fickle legal system for you.
What's that you say, the laws of my living room don't apply in another country? Maybe he should have thought of that before he overextended his own authority...
When The Piratebay finally has to give up, what would be the point? There will be new sites, many more. And when those have to close down, more will rise.
And that's not even counting the private trackers that have way more content than TPB.
What good is that going to do? Might as well bail out a boat with a hole the size of your bucket.
I suppose the RIAA in the Netherlands is rejoicing and clinking glasses to toast the demise of media piracy and a return to healthy profitability. Heh.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Well let me ask you one question: Is your money that good? Oh, will it buy you forgiveness? Do you think that it could?
I think you will find, when your death takes its toll: All the money you made will never buy back your soul.
And I hope that you die - and your death will come soon - I'll follow your casket by the pale afternoon...
And I'll watch while you're lowered, down to your deathbed. And I'll stand over your grave till I'm sure that you're dead.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Just to note... the lawyer for TPB, Ernst-Jan Louwers, has already pointed out that the ruling is a bit conflicting, noting that the torrents must be removed and -remain- removed AND that Dutch citizens should not be allowed access. ( so which is it.. block, or delete? if they're deleted, they can't be blocked. If they're blocked, why still delete them? )
Furthermore, but this is not noted by TPB lawyer, as the ruling should only pertain to NL, deleting torrents would not fit in with the jurisdiction.
This was noted by another laywer, Arnoud Engelfriet, but I'll stress here that I do not think he was acting -as a lawyer giving legal advice- when he made that statement. Though NL doesn't have the crazy "IANAL! IANAL!!!" bullcrap going on (yet).
long live diePiratenbucht.com
I've said this many times but I'll repeat once again, this general purpose net connection stack tcp/ip has to go. In its place a large defined set of protocols can allow broadcast style networking for the internet savvy consumer, and if Microsoft had the lead in engineering this, you can be sure that most computers would be compatible, and Microsoft could also sell "Microsoft Gateway" products to let Apple participate.
This set of protocols could allow trusted machines to receive properly licensed and authorized content but still filter out other less useful but more dangerous content/extentions like exe's, zips, tar.gz's, bz2, py, and iso's, and additionally any encrypted content, and the major webserver venders would have to outlaw application/octet mime types to regain control of the internet-turned-piracy haven that the thieves like warez groups and gnu have perverted, not to mention all the pornography and child molesting an open internet produces.
Its time to make the net safe again for our families and businesses.
For putting the Netherlands on the world map. I suppose bad publicity is publicity nonetheless.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
wHAT THE fuck IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
dON'T YOU KNOW ITS "iNTERNATIONAL cAPS lOCK dAY"?
In that case you're quite a failure, since you're using shift, not caps-lock.
I haven't RTFA, but that seems like a great deal to me. Assuming the penalties don't scale or result in arrest, and assuming the Bay cuts its official staff to one person, that's a $2.7 million per year license to distribute unlimited copies of all copyrighted works in existence. I bet that's a lot less than Apple or other content providers pay.
People still use ThePirateBay? LOL
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I think I may have to use this trick on my own websites, to keep the Russian spammers away.
the value of water is not very much
on the internet, i can give you, or someone in johannesburg, or someone in novosibirsk, any amount of my bits that they want
the internet is the ocean. media content is water
its simple economics: supply meets demand, and determines a price. with infinite supply. cost is zero. there is no ability, via any legal means, to modify this simple economic truth
"Just don't start crying about quality when fewer people are willing to take risks creating this "valueless" content that you love to download so much."
this is baseless panic
#1: who said we are getting quality now? i've seen $10,000 dollar movies that were much better than $100,000,000 movies. i've seen a guy in coffeeshop deliver more moving songs than mindless pop i've heard. i've read better books written by authors from eras where no intellectual property protections existed than pulp where the author received a million dollar contract before the book was written
#2: why do people create art? to get paid? they do it out of passion. well, most do. certainly, some do it only for money (see #1 above). fact: if it were legally enforced in an alternate universe that no artist ever be allowed to get a penny for anything they ever made, even if people were throwing cash at them and armed police were preventing the artist from picking it up the cash, guess what: people would still create art. ask any high school kid why he picked up a guitar: to get a girl's pants. FAME. or even, believe it or not, simply for the love of the art. why did the first proto-human draw a stick figure on a cave wall or beat a drum? because he wanted economic consideration?
#3: anything meatspace will still result in cash. the musician who distributes his mp3s for free, thereby getting a fan base, will sell tickets to his next concert. television, then the vcr, then the dvd, now the internet: it was all supposed to destroy the movie theatre. it hasn't. movies will still sell tickets even if their dvd market is $0. jk rowling could get $0 for her books and still be very rich: speaking engagements, personalized content, hollywood scripts, toylines, media endorsements, advertising, etc
the point? if all of intellectual property laws were erased, we would see an INCREASE in cultural output and quality, without the laws getting in the way of artists attempting to create art (and running into interference from the great grandson of a guy who wrote a song he wants to use on a soundtrack, etc), and without distributors telling us what to watch/ read/ listen to (internet sites devoted to rating output would do that instead)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
From the verdict ( http://zoeken.rechtspraak.nl/resultpage.aspx?snelzoeken=true&searchtype=ljn&ljn=BK1067&u_ljn=BK1067 - Dutch ), emphasis mine...
So, no, this isn't about ALL torrent files. Your Linux Distros and such are safe.
Holland : The Netherlands => California : The USA
Privacy is terrorism.
Not to mention Deutschland!
No claim, nor verdict, was made on the legality of torrent files.
In fact, I don't think that would even fly, as even the less intelligent judges in NL know the basic principle that guns don't kill people, people kill people.
( guns are still illegal to own unless, etc. but that doesn't make the gun illegal - just the ownership. crafty or sane - you decide! )
Therefore, your comment is moot.
The case was about TPB as a site, how it operated, especially with regard to the Dutch market. The verdict document even specifically noted that allowing torrent file uploads, indexing them, and offering them for download 'as is' does not constitute copyright infringement.
By extension, that would imply that torrent files themselves do not constitute derivative-copyrighted works. But, again, that's not what the case was about, and thus no explicit statement was made on that.
But torrents are what Pirate Bay is all about! You can't infringe on their right to be a distributor of torrents. You just can't. What about their business model?
It is the 21st century and the time for Klax has passed.
And in other news, King Canute has reportedly just tried to stop the tide.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
free television, then the vcr, then the dvd, now the internet: it was all supposed to destroy the movie theatre. it hasn't. movies will still sell tickets even if their dvd market is $0. sitting in your basement by yourself watching transformers on a 17 inch monitor and tinny speakers is just AWESOME dude ;-P even if you had a legal dvd
you can get a 55" HD tv and dolby surround sound in your rec room? oh right, because everyone can afford that. oh, and all your friends will show up on cue every time you feel the sudden urge to watch a movie, right? not to mention the new frontier of 3D content, 3 stories high immersive IMAX theatres, etc
fact: if hollywood gave away every movie it made for free on the internet on the same day as release, they would still be rolling in dough. because watching a movie at home does not, and will never replace the experience of seeing it in a theatre. even with all the crying babies and the cell phones (yes, there are people for which crying babies and cell phones has totally destroyed their desire to ever go theatres again: all 13 dozen of you in the us population: a small minor cranky fringe who are so perversely overly sensitive and overly reacting)
the modern movie theatre replaces, in effect, older shared cultural experiences like going to church, the public debate forum of old greece, going to see plays in victorian times, etc. we are social creatures. we crave fellowship, we know we are in the darkness with a couple hundred other people (munching popcorn: their presence is felt) and this validates our emotional experience in a movie: we SHARE it
why do you write on slashdot? you wish to SHARE your feelings and thoughts. this is what it means in many ways to be human. when you go to a horror movie, and you gasp at a shocking scene, the experience in heightened when you also hear a woman shriek behind you. when you hear laughter at a comedy in the audience around you, you in turn laugh louder and feel more mirthful. why do television sitcoms pipe canned laughter over their shows? its a genuine human sociological effect
the point? if all of intellectual property laws were erased, we would see an INCREASE in cultural output and quality, without the laws getting in the way of artists attempting to create art (and running into interference from the great grandson of a guy who wrote a song he wants to use on a soundtrack, etc), and without distributors telling us what to watch/ read/ listen to (internet sites devoted to rating output would do that instead)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
see: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1414777&cid=29839719
quick re-cap: only torrent files pointing to files (mmm torrents) containing works of authors who are in the cahoots with Brein, as it were.
so, no, an indie movie distributed through some obscure firm that is not with Brein nor owned by a parent company that -is-, etc. wouldn't be affected by this either.
Quoth Stallman:
Oracle is facing an obvious conflict of interest the continued development of a powerful, feature rich free alternative [MySQL] to its core product.
I'm speechless.
TPB needs to buy a plot of land somewhere, declare it a country, establish a governing body and be out of reach of all these different jurisdictions that cave under the pressure of the MPAA, RIAA, and their international equivalents. I'd gladly pay a handsome fee to move to such a country if they promised it wouldn't be rife with real life crime. I guess that's just be being idealistic though.
They should just provide a link on the site to the online version of the court order listing all the links they're supposed to delete. Then let them sue the court.
Pull a stunt like this on an American judge and you will be fitted for a 6x8 cinder block cell and a bunk mate named Big Mike.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hmmm, would that .torrent include itself?
They should move their servers to a more 'friendy' country like Russia or Iran :) .
I'd love to see the MPAA go to trial there :D
You could just as well say the Matrix is a derived work of Spinoza.
you are not giving away the experience of seeing it in a theatre for free. the idea that the guy who will watch transformers for free in his basement represents a guy who will not spend $10 at the theatre is a falsehood. yes, there are in fact people who will not see a movie in a theatre after watching it on their computer, but not all of them, or even a majority. or that if i had the option, that i would choose to atch by myself rather than going to the theatre. does the existence of recorded songs on the internet mean that no one comes to artists giving live concerts? no, the opposite in fact
i often watch movies i like again and again. adidtionally, someone who saw it on his computer might be intrigued enough to see it in the theatre, or tell his friends they have to see it: the point is, its exposure, free advertising, for the REAL product, which is seeing it in the theatre, where you can charge for tickets, and no experience by yourself, at home, can ever replace that
besides, i didn't actually think movie studios will release their products for free on the internet the same time as they release in theatres. i was simply providing the contrasting situation from the status quo we have now to demonstrate why the intellectual property status quo is philosophically unsound. perhaps they could release the first 10 minutes of the movie online for free (and in fact, they do in some cases)
and even if someone got their product illegally, what is that? a screener copy with words flashing on the bottom? something recorded in the theatre from a handycam? a half-edited mishmash with incomplete effects a disgruntled studio worker uploaded? these poor quality reproductions are valid competition with the real product?
now, if the projectionist in a digital theatre copied the movie, then yeah: thats a problem. so control your content vigorously. banks don't stay in business without keeping vigilance on the actual cash. but that's the studios job to police their copies. the point is: punishing the CONSUMER for lapses in product control is not going to change that fact! do banks stay in business by keeping piles of cash laying on the sidewalk in front of the branch, then suing anyone who picks it up into bankruptcy? is that a valid business model?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Joy. Another ruling written by people who understand nothing about the technology, or the data being shared.
How about this: Simply delete ALL trackers older than 90 days. Voila, compliant with the ruling.
sheep-fucker, why don't you go drown in a pool of cat urine?
It is a really nice shirt... and I bought it back when the dollar was a bit stronger.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
They will arrest you for contempt, or refusing to pay. So if you don't mind going to jail, and being the best martyr eva, don't pay.
Done. What next?
Nope. Nazi cards is very common in some European countries.
I think you are confusing it with the "It's socialism!" card. USA has exclusive rights to that one.
That paradox is better stated as a torrent of .torrents which do not include themselves.
$ make available
No. TPB lost because of a corrupt judicial process and clear conflict of interest.
I am a TPB supporter, but could someone post some citations that support the claim of a "clear conflict of interest" please?
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
Maybe by arresting the owners and putting them in jail? While their servers are "untouchable", unless the owners moved to some old soviet state too, they are still very touchable!
"allowing copyright over pure facts would be ridiculous"
That fact has copyright protection. Im sorry, but your post must be removed due to infringing the copyright. you have 3 months do remove your post or be fined $5000/day
And no, YOU cannot copyright facts without my say-so, since I own the patent on copyrighting pure facts.
Does it still work, just really slow? What would be the ideal mix of the other 3/4 of your nationality to get the best connection under those circumstances?
The problem with being a human with a flesh-and-blood body that resides in time-and-space is that governments with monopolies on the use of force within 2d jurisdictions mapped onto the 3d-sphere you inhabit ... will occasionally use guns or tasers and handcuffs to herd you into metal boxes. Regardless of your principles.
You can toy with the system for however long you toy with it. But realize that: in the world of asymmetric force that sovereign immunity confers upon the counter-party that you are are toying with ... when you lose, it can be very bad for your meat-puppet and its happiness for a long long time...
Papa bondye, jadie mwen sa pale kweyol isit! Sa ka fet moon Domnitjen!
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
But I have, for some reason or another, been completely incapable of finding a torrent for "The Informant!". I've found tons of fakes/virus-laden files, but none that are legit, and nothing on The Pirate Bay (Which MUST delete torrents for being forgeries, because I've never found a fraudulent torrent on the site). Am I just doing something wrong? I have never had trouble finding a movie before, ever. Trouble downloading, yes, but I can always at least find an unseeded download. I know this is offtopic, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to burn karma to figure out why this is true, and it's not because it's a shitty movie, because I can find shitty movies fine.
I hate grammar Nazi's.
What.cd
Does it really matter? All illegal downloads are moving to direct private HTTP servers or FTP servers.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation about copyright law in the Netherlands, some of it actually spread by BREIN. Most people I've talked to actually believe downloading copyrighted works is illegal and the colloquial phrase for this is "illegal downloading". This myth is happily propagated by BREIN, even though, according to the actual law, downloading music and videos is legal. Apparently, a minister going on air stating this hasn't impressed anyone.
In this case of BREIN vs. TPB, the report I heard on the radio actually stated that "The Pirate Bay is a website that hosts copyrighted works". Now, I suppose that, technically, _any_ website hosts copyrighted works (if I write a webpage, I get copyright on that), but the way most people interpret this, and the way it is probably intended to be interpreted, is that TPB would host the actual media files - music and movies - which, to my knowledge, is not and never has been the case. In other words, more misinformation.
Now, I am all for the rule of law, so if the law says we are not allowed to do certain things with certain works, then I believe we shouldn't do those things ... and if we still want to do them, we should get the law changed, first. So I am all for organizations like BREIN that protect the legal rights of copyright holders. But please, let's be open and clear about what is actually happening. Downloading music and movies is _not_ illegal in the Netherlands, and The Pirate Bay is _not_ hosting music and movies. Claiming those things is just spreading FUD, and I sincerely hope BREIN gets punished for it - they of all organizations should know better.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Belarusian court once forbidden to make any reference to the group, Which Now Can Not Be Called. Here they have no brain.
This was the case were it was proven they have fabricated evidence right? In the form of a fake owners certicate of who owned "Reservella".
Nice of the court just to skip that part and say "you need to prove who else owns it, otherwise we'll just assume it's you"
toRenTz iS 4 nOObZ
the illusion things are changing when nothing is changing, only you are
"our way of thinking is very different, our morals are different, and the population is many orders of magnitude larger."
who wrote these quotes:
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"
"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."
"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."
all of these quotes are from ancient greece, many centuries bc
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=398104
do you understand the point?
it is illusion things change about human nature. people haven't changed one bit. go to any society in the world today, or any time period in the past, or the future, and you find the same mix of personalities, grievances, and concerns. living in the ancient urban societies along the nile, you'd be amazed at issues people were concerned with: the same things residents of any city today are concerned with. crime is the same, morlas, or lack thereof, is the same, etc. there is no such thing as some mythological past where everyone had better behavior. you have some serious delusions about the reality of simple human nature: it is a constant across all time and all cultures
"Oh, and the ancient lifestyle was actually sustainable , unlike our modern industrial economic machine."
the ancients killed off dozens of megafauna. and have ever you heard of easter island?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island#Collapse_of_the_ecosystem
human nature is human nature is human nature. it is completely untrue ancient man was some wise nature man in touch with the universe. he was busy throwing his trash outside his abode and getting whatever he wanted with as little effort as possible: the same as modern man in psychology
you have somee serious hollywood-level mythological delusions about what it means to be human
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
A _Dutch_ court orders _Swedish_ nationals blah-blah-blah... Huh?
who doesn't understand the cult of firefly, i struggle to care
and furthermore, what are you trying to say? intellectual property laws are the friend of fanboys?
in truth, looser intellectual property laws would let fan-made homage be easier to make:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_fan_productions
i think where hollywood firefly fades according to your financial calculations, and fan-made firefly blossoms according to my intellectual property negations, you have more to keep you happy than disappointed, no?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
budget!=quality
for the bottom amount needed to make a movie, above starvation levels of budget, well within the range of what can be recouped in cinema receipts only, you can make quality film
please don't try to tell me you need gobs of cash to make a good film. the dvd aftermarket has indeed supported plenty of worthy films. and a giant flowering of shit
any cinema-only exposure proportional to potential interest level can reasonably be considered valid for recouping costs for a giant range of budgets. with cinema-only exposure, you are well within range for good money making opportunities in hollywood, forever
yes, i am going out on a crazy limb to suggest you don't need the dvd aftermarket to make money in hollywood. there's no historical precedent for my madness, you NEED dvd!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Hollywood_cinema
remember the conventional wisdom that was dead certain the VCR was going to kill hollywood? so conventional hollywood wisdom seems pretty retarded, no? since the vcr was the beginning of the massive new aftermarket that the dvd inherited
so all i am talking about is returning to an era... that hollywood was desperate to preserve from the onslaught of the armageddon that was the vcr. lol
so color me unimpressed with your reasoning about the need for dvd $. the dvd aftermarket is drying up regardless. you need to deal with its future irrelevancy no matter what i say
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
so the matrix is now called debbie does dallas,
terminator is now called the sound of music
independence day is now called honky tonk man
how do you serve an order?
debbie does dallas is in contravention of our copyright?, but you didn`t make debbie does dallas, ah!...damn!
small budgets spur on creativity
large budgets ruin directors: they throw money at a problem rather than ingenious lighting or cinematography or misdirection. lots of money makes them stupid
if you're making a horror movie, its scarier to imply the creature rather than show it... don't you think something like district 9 is better than anything by roland emmerich or michael bay, who are all about throwing gobs of cash on screen for little dramatic effect?
hollywood is replete with huge expensive projects that bomb. meanwhile, if you keep your costs small, you simply make more money in the end, as long as the execution is fundamentally sound. i'm glad hollywood is going on a diet. maybe we'll see next shit like "land of the lost". too much cash floating around hollywood gets ejaculated all over the stupidest of ideas and execution. starve hollywood, force it to think for once
obviously, you need a bare minimum of cash to make a movie of bare essential technicality. but above that, you ruin the move by relying on spectacle rather than creativity
the idea of throwing gobs of money at film will somehow improve it is bullshit. for every film idea, there is a price needed to realize it on screen. more money spent than that price makes it a lower quality film, not a higher quality film, because the baubles you can now afford do not necessarily make for a sexier product, just a louder and gaudier one. you can put a diamond necklace on an ugly chick, its an ugly chick wearing a diamond necklace. you haven't turned her into a beautiful chick
so stop with this bullshit about the need for wads of cash to make movies. no: how about you make your movie, and we'll give you what to need to make it. not the other way around. your thinking is backwards in the relationship between filmmaking and cash. think about the film first, then the cash needed to realize it. don't put the emphasis on the need for big cash flows, and what product you can throw into that flow. that's how all these shit giant bombs are made
"I'm also not saying that you need the DVD aftermarket to make money, just that some films need it"
and i'm saying let them die. the dvd aftermarket has been a colossal bloom of quantity, not quality. flush that shit down the toilet. good riddance
"by eliminating it as an option, you're narrowing the field"
right, because nowadays any high school kid has more production power than the classical studios of yore on his laptop. you keep depending upon this bullshit premise that you need money, lots of money to make a film: no, you simply do not. you need less, and less every day, as technology advances. our options are expanding over time, due to technology, and the amount of cash around has absolutely no relation whatsoever to the quality coming out on the other end
"And yes, you're also narrowing the field by giving artists a monopoly on their ideas (i.e. a copyright) but I have no sympathy for artists that can't so much as come up with an idea without using somebody else's IP. It's not that hard."
you're talking about ip law as applied to hollywood dealmaking. that's different. the death of ip law in this thread refers to the death of hollywood exerting control over the end user. it does not, and never did refer to, for example, jk rowling getting $20 mil to turn a book of hers into a movie. this ip law is still 100% philosophically valid, and there's nothing at all wrong with it, since such deals are enforceable: they are solitary and unique and involve contracts between individual players. they don't involve distributors trying to exert control over millions of anonymous consumers. that kind of ip law is dead
"Yes, it won't last forever, but it's just going to be replaced with digital distribution."
which is $0 income. you do understand that right? you haven't swallowed the koolaid and believe that that will be anything but decimated and then fade away right?
look: millions of technologically sophisticated, media hungry, and most importantly, POOR teenagers versus a couple thousand industry lawyers. you tell me who's going to win that contest, ok?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It brings up a point that should have been obvious, but that I at least have not thought about.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
No, that's not true (or funny if it was meant to be a joke).