The Sad History and (Possibly) Bright Future of TiVo

gjt writes "For the couch-potato geek, one name typically comes to mind: TiVo — the company that invented the DVR, and with it, timeshifting. TiVo has been around for more than 10 years now. And TiVo fans (like myself) tend to love TiVo. Yet, despite being well-loved and despite having been around longer than the Apple iPod, TiVo comes nowhere close to the iPod/iPhone's success. Apple sells more iPod and iPhone products in a single quarter than TiVo has sold in the entire lifetime of the company. At its peak, TiVo had only 4.4 million active users — that was over three years ago. Now TiVo the number is about 2.7 million. So I wanted to find out why TiVo hasn't been more successful — especially with a seeming lack of competition on store shelves. I did some research and posted my finding about TiVo's past, present, and future. The key takeaway seems to be that TiVo is a victim of cable industry collusion, loopholes in FCC regulations, and, of course, plenty of their own mistakes."

Comments

TiVo invented timeshifting?

[lambent]

perhaps this is a quibbling point, but TiVo didn't invent timeshifting. the invention of the VCR was responsible for that. one should learn about history a bit more before attempting to romanticize it unnecessarily.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[daveime]

I'll have you know my mother invented timeshifting way before the VCR was even thought of. Every TIME a commercial came on the TV she would SHIFT herself into the kitchen and make a cuppa.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah! Well, my mother invented the creation of time by turning off the TV and demanding that we don't watch so much of that shit.

Now, only if she we're here to keep me off of internet discussion sites. I'd have all that time back.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[IBBoard]

Surely that depends on what type of "time shifting" you mean. If you're talking about "recording to watch later" then VCRs do it, but "live TV pausing" time-shifts are presumably new to newer technology like the TiVo.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[delinear]

That's what I always understanded by the term, the ability to, for instance, pause a TV stream and then start watching it x amount of time later but before the programme you are recording has ended, or rewinding/fast forwarding within a captured section of a stream before it's ended, something that was certainly not possible with VCR.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[blackest_k]

The Vcr allowed people to record stuff to hopefully watch at another date.
Tivo brought the ability to timeshift in real time while recording something a vcr cant do.

the amount that can be recorded is also completely different you can decide to record a season of something and a tivo will do it.

Sad thing is that the content providers still won't let us have the freedom we want to choose what and when we view. Luckily there is an alternative usually referred to as bit torrent.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[wjsteele]

Also ReplayTV, Microsoft's UltimateTV and TiVo were all introduced at the CES show in 98.

I'm not sure who actually did it "first." But no licensing deals were struck, so it seems that the patents either had already expired or there were none to begin with due to prior art.

Bill

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Robin newberry]

Actually, my Dad says that in the Days before TV they'd often set up a Reel-to-Reel tape recorder to record a radio show they'd otherwise miss, and then listen to it later. So "time shifting" is at least as old as reel-to-reel...

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[MickyTheIdiot]

My mom is The Doctor's mother. So she gave birth to time, sorta.

And she's a time traveler.

And she's bigger than your Dad and can beat him up.

So There.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[j00r0m4nc3r]

one should learn about history

History doesn't begin at the VCR, and I think your definition of timershifter is off. I would argue that if you're going to consider a VCR a timeshifter, then you should also consider the phonograph and the human memory cortex timeshifters as well. I'm pretty sure that "recording device" is not the same thing as "timeshifter". A timeshifter allows you to view a stream of data at a point in time other than what it is also simultaneously chronicling. View and Chronicle are separate timelines. This is impossible with a VCR. It could probably be achieved with a complicated array of VCRs, but that invention does not exist.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

I very seldom record and watch later using my HD Tivo, but do a lot of watching streams and my dvds on my HD Tivo. PyTivo works great to let you send your vob files to the Tivo but I also use Galleon, Streambaby and hme-vlc. Series 1 tivo were great in their time because they were so easily hacked. It seemed like Tivo wanted their users to hack their Tivos because many added and beta tested new features to their Tivos, many of the added features even got incorporated into Tivo. However, as time went on the competitors decided they could not have that with Tivo, oh no they claimed, some guy might copy something to his Tivo that was illegal , no we need to protect the copyrights better, we need to limit how much the user can do. After all the Tivo users were having a bal,l while the other companies were struggling to come up with a product. Eventually the others caught up, even "borrowed" from the Tivo and as more and more copied the Tivo technology they produced cheaper alternatives and at the same time stripped Tivo legally of it's greatest resource, the Tivo owners that constantly hacked their Tivos to develop better features. It was a great strategy, use laws to hold back the competition but copy the competitors products - then if Tivo file suit for stealing , they can use their power to limit the damages.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mdwh2]

So a VCR with two tape decks then...

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

As I recall, ReplayTV was the first one to make/sell anything - I remember waiting and WAITING for that damned thing to be available - only to see them sued into oblivion while #2 (TiVo) managed to survive.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[commodore64_love]

Yeah time-shifting is nothing new. It has existed ever since the Sony Umatic VCR released circa 1969. That VCR was too expensive, so Sony went back and created the Betamax (anc JVC copied it to create VHS) in 1975. DVR is not even the first digital recording method - that was miniDV and Digital VHS in the early 1990s. ----- People have been time-shifting for decades. All the DVR did was replace the magnetic tape storage with magnetic disk storage. Nothing revolutionary... it was an evolutionary change.

As for why Tivo is not more popular? Because there are tons of other options. I have a Panasonic ReplayTV that has no subscription fees whatsoever. Ditto my Dish DTVpal which cost $250 flat and no subscription fees. It seemed a no-brainer to buy these DVRs rather than buy a Tivo with a monthly rental.

Perhaps if Tivo eliminated the monthly fee, then they'd takeoff like iPod, but most people simply don't see the need to throw-away money like that. They have to budget their spending, which means they choose options without the fees (like I did).

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[commodore64_love]

>>>should also consider the phonograph and the human memory cortex timeshifters as well.

The term "timeshifting" was invented with the VCR (another popular term was tape-delayed), because it allowed people to make their own schedules, rather than being shackled to the TV Guide. I know with my VCR I almost never watch anything live - it tapes at night and I "timeshift" to the next afternoon when I get home from work.

The photograph was typically called by 1800s observers as "capturing time" because it froze a moment forever.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[jellomizer]

I guess I have gotten too old and my skills with the VCR has dropped but I don't remember being able to play live TV and hit the Pause button and had my show pause. Then Rewind play a part I missed then fast forward to the live content after say some commercials.

The VCR can simulate Time Shifting but only after it has fully recorded the program.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Aquineas]

One could argue that if innovation moves far enough past the initial idea, it indeed qualifies as reinventing. While the rest of us pony up and recognize what an innovation Tivo was, you're of course free to continue to express your technical objections by shuffling your VCR tapes, having your VCR flash "12:00am", and looking up the upcoming TV schedule with your TVGuide and setting VCRPlus to record shows. The rest of us will use our DVRs and not have to worry about adjusting the tracking.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[elcid73]

replayTV was around before Tivo, I had one and loved it.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[stevel]

You did not use a ReplayTV before TiVo. TiVo was the first to ship product - Replay announced first.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[gtbritishskull]

Uh... no. VCRs cannot record and play the same tape at the same time. And if you did make one that went by a recording head first and then a playing head, you would still have to be able to dynamically adjust the length of the tape between the two heads when someone paused, fast forward, or rewould their live feed which would be non-trivial. That ability was not available to the average consumer with any tape based device that I know of.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[ari_j]

She's got nothing on Mrs. Roberts.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Gr8Apes]

but it's obvious to anyone with knowledge in the arts. Tivo just got to the patent office first with applying this idea to a video stream on a PC, and the PTO in its usual incredibly swift efficiency, granted them patents on obvious technologies.

The idea of reading data while still writing it to disk has been around since... well, the first or second hard drive.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about revolutionized timeshifting. For instance, if there were 6 programs you wanted to see and 2 were at the same time. No VCR I am privy to was ever capable of that.

I realize the TiVo has upper bounds of what it is capable of, but it really did change the game in many ways.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Stele]

Perhaps if Tivo eliminated the monthly fee, then they'd takeoff like iPod, but most people simply don't see the need to throw-away money like that. They have to budget their spending, which means they choose options without the fees (like I did).

Yet people have no problems spending $80+/month so they can text and check sports scores on their phones, when 15 years ago nobody ever wanted, let alone needed to do those things.

I always thought the monthly Tivo fee was a bargain. It SAVED me tons of time, automatically recording my favorite shows, even if the time slot changed. Knowing that I could go away for a few days, come home, turn on the TV, and have my shows were there waiting for me is worth a lot more to me than being able to stay connected 24/7.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps this is a quibbling point, but TiVo didn't invent timeshifting. the invention of the VCR was responsible for that. one should learn about history a bit more before attempting to romanticize it unnecessarily.

Two hour TV show starts at 8pm. At 9pm, I go to my TiVo and start watching the program from the begining. An hour after that, the show ends. You CANNOT do that with a VCR. You have to wait until 10pm when the show ends before you can rewind it and start watching it. A TiVo can timeshifting. A VCRs can simply record. BIG difference.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Chrisq]

My mom is The Doctor's mother.

Well my mom is the doctor's mother's mother and father. Its a long story involving time change and gender reassignment.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[IndustrialComplex]

and make a cuppa.

I get your joke, and like it. However, is this a British slang term? I keep waiting for the next word. It feels like a sneeze that just didn't come, leaving you feeling odd and unsatisfied.

A cup of... WHAT? Sulfuric acid? I hate commercials as much as anyone, but throwing a cup full of 30mm lug nuts at the TV seems a bit much.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Hatta]

A timeshifter allows you to view a stream of data at a point in time other than what it is also simultaneously chronicling. View and Chronicle are separate timelines. This is impossible with a VCR.

My VCR has a "TV/VCR" button that allows exactly that.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[IndustrialComplex]

Tivo brought the ability to timeshift in real time while recording something a vcr cant do.

Coax to VCR and from VCR to TV. Set VCR to record channel 32, press TV/VCR button and then use the TV as you would.

Unless you are literally talking about timeshifting in real time, in that case, a lot of physicists would like to have a word with you.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

phono, not photo.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[commodore64_love]

>>>Yet people have no problems spending $80+/month so they can text and check sports scores on their phones

Yeah they're nuts. I only spend $5 a month for my phone, which gives me 30 minutes per month (or 30 texts, IMs or emails). It works fine for me.

And maybe Tivo is a "bargain" for you, but since my DVR has FREE television guides and auto-recording of my favorite programs, that's an even better bargain. :-)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[gafisher]

Mostly agreed, especially on the issue of subscription fees. However, Sony's U-Matic was far from the original consumer-grade video recorder. Ampex had a consumer video recorder, the VR-1500, on the market in 1963, and in 1966 introduced the VR-6275 with built-in TV tuner, audio amplifier and speaker, all in "an attractive walnut cabinet." JVC didn't copy the Betamax -- they were a licensed second-source for the U-Matic design but saw it as too costly for home use and adapted the concept for the VHS home-video standard, much as AMD and Compaq built on their second-source status with Intel and IBM respectively.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[llordreefa]

Hells yeah! I was there when it happened! These kids today... with the hair, and the beads, and the ya-ya music...

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[commodore64_love]

>>> VCRs cannot record and play the same tape at the same time

So? You can't wait half-an-hour for your show to finish recording and then watch it? Or watch another tape on VCR#2 while you're waiting? (That's what I typically do.) No wonder they call you the "entitlement generation" - you're spoiled rotten. ;-)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a quibbling point. Sure you could record shows on video, but Tivo's simplicity and feature set made timeshifting something that, now, 10 years later, I don't see how I could ever live without.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Aidtopia]

I'm pretty sure that "recording device" is not the same thing as "timeshifter". A timeshifter allows you to view a stream of data at a point in time other than what it is also simultaneously chronicling.

It's true that what a DVR does is different than what you could do with a VCR, but what you can do with a VCR is properly called time shifting. In fact, that term became popular during the Betamax case. It was determined that "time shifting" was a legal use of VCRs, and since VCRs had legal uses, they couldn't be banned as copyright infringement devices.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Mr_Silver]

Surely that depends on what type of "time shifting" you mean. If you're talking about "recording to watch later" then VCRs do it, but "live TV pausing" time-shifts are presumably new to newer technology like the TiVo.

I've worked with a number of set top box hardware and firmware providers and they call the latter functionality (that is, pausing live TV and then playing it back whilst the programme is still being recorded) "chase play".

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Rantastic]

DVR is not even the first digital recording method - that was miniDV and Digital VHS in the early 1990s.

Actually, digital video was first introduced commercially in 1986 with the Sony D-1 format.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[smoot123]

All the DVR did was replace the magnetic tape storage with magnetic disk storage. Nothing revolutionary... it was an evolutionary change.

What was revolutionary about a DVR vs. VCR is (a) you can record while watching and (b) it's much more reliable (since you don't have to pre-position the blank tape). All DVRs also include a program grid, something that I've never seen in a VCR. That's not really required, per se, it's just one of those things that was possible in the timeframe DVRs were introduced but not when VCRs came out.

Anyway, having used both, a DVR really is a different experience, not an evolution, much like a bird evolved from a dinosaur but really isn't one any more.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[BlueBat]

Yet people have no problems spending $80+/month so they can text and check sports scores on their phones, when 15 years ago nobody ever wanted, let alone needed to do those things.

Yes, but more and more companies want/expect you to pay a monthly fee. Sorry, but $15 for basic cable, $50 for a basic cell phone plan, $50 for DSL, and who knows what other monthly charges companies want to shaft me for, I say no way. I don't need more than basic cable and cell phone and DSL. I am not going to be required to pay every month for something that I have purchased just because a company is greedy. That is why I have never and will never get a Tivo DVR. If they offered a Tivo where I didn't have to get the guide and could use the guide or uses the free guide that comes with cable, I might get one. But when the only option is to pay every month, I say no way. And last time I checked, that is the only way Tivo came. I have not heard of any changes to their policy.

I am not rich, I can't afford to have a dozen monthly payments every month. Sorry, I'm not one of those idiots that live beyond their means.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[powerlord]

Perhaps if Tivo eliminated the monthly fee, then they'd takeoff like iPod, but most people simply don't see the need to throw-away money like that. They have to budget their spending, which means they choose options without the fees (like I did).

Well ... considering that I've been a TiVo user for the past 5 years, and have not payed a monthly fee, I'm not sure what you mean.

They have always (with the exception of a short period of about 4-6 months), offered the option of buying a "Lifetime Subscription" instead of a "Monthly Subscription". The cost of the Lifetime Subscription usually pays for itself after about 2-3 years, but there is no recurring expenses.

The main problem is that people seem to get sticker shock for large up-front costs (unsubsidized DVR, Lifetime Subscription), versus paying less per month, but paying more long term.

I ditched cable about six months ago, replacing it with a TiVo for Over-The-Air signals, and a MacMini both hooked up to DSL through Verizon.

According to the numbers I've run, assuming you are paying ~$120 for Cable/CableModem, assuming you need to buy all the hardware from scratch (32" HDTV, MacMini, TiVo HDXL w/Lifetime Service, cables, Antenna, etc.), and including the monthly DSL cost, you hit the break even point in ~2 years (MAX). Already own an HDTV? The Break even point drops to about 1.3-1.5 years.

This works great for me.
- The TiVo w/Dual tuners pulls in enough Over The Air content (living in NYC where I had LOUSY reception before the Digital switch), it also has access to Amazon Video on Demand to supplement shows/movies that aren't on Hulu, or Over-The-Air TV.
- The MacMini makes a great HTPC for Internet TV like Hulu (great for a lot of "Cable Original" programming), etc (check out http://www.zinc.tv/ for a great OSX/Windows from end to Internet TV). It also has access to iTunes to supplement Video from if you want to watch a show/movie that isn't on Hulu or Amazon Video.

I'm saving $100 a month over when I had Cable and still have more viewing choices then I know what to do with, all with NO recurring monthly charges.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mcgrew]

I'm calling bullshit on your dad. Early tape recorders were created by replacing the steel wire of a wire recorder with a thin steel tape. The first of these modified wire recorders was the Blattnerphone, created in 1929 or 1930 by the Ludwig Blattner Picture Corporation. The first practical use of television was in Germany. Regular television broadcasts began in Germany in 1929 and in 1936 the Olympic Games in Berlin were broadcast to television stations in Berlin and Leipzig where the public could view the games live.[11]

Tape recording and TV started roughly at the same time. If he could afford a tape recorder, he could afford a TV set.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[manicb]

Perhaps, of the two, he preferred the tape recorder? I would.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Kymermosst]

Really, so for the two shows that were on at the same time, you couldn't record one show on the VCR and watch the other one on the TV?

Also, the first widely available dual-deck VCR was introduced in 1989. It could do things like, you know, record two shows at the same time and record one show while playing another from the other tape.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Kymermosst]

Sorry, but you are wrong. Time shifting merely implies that you can record the show and watch it at a more convenient time, not necessarily with the ability to overlap. The phrase "time shifting" was originally coined during the Sony vs Universal case in the late 1970s after the BetaMax VCR was introduced.

A simple Google search would have educated you.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

They have always (with the exception of a short period of about 4-6 months), offered the option of buying a "Lifetime Subscription" instead of a "Monthly Subscription". The cost of the Lifetime Subscription usually pays for itself after about 2-3 years, but there is no recurring expenses.

I keep seeing people say that a lifetime subscription to TiVo pays for itself after 2-3 years. Since I don't want the subscription, I don't see how paying an upfront fee for the subscription can pay for itself over time.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[stdarg]

Yet people have no problems spending $80+/month so they can text and check sports scores on their phones, when 15 years ago nobody ever wanted, let alone needed to do those things.

The $80 is for voice service. No plan charges that much to add on text messaging and basic web access! Even an expensive smart phone data plan is $20 - $30.

Cell phones are a good thing to think about though. Expensive phones took off because you could get them for "free" with a contract and just pay the monthly price. Tivo charges a ridiculous amount for the hardware you get and then $12.95/month in addition!

$12.95 means you need to be providing a substantial service. I can get HBO and Showtime for $12.95/month. Tivo isn't giving me any additional service except a nicer interface to a DVR, which I already paid $500 for, and a suggestion service. It seriously makes no sense.

I predict that to be successful, they need to either eliminate the up front cost (like I believe they did with DirecTivo... my sister had one of those and it was included in the DirecTV installation iirc) or eliminate the monthly cost. What they should really do is get out of the hardware business and put their software and suggestion service on existing STBs.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[jrvz]

She couldn't do that today, because there are too many ads. So the old Soviet saying gets updated: "You pretend to entertain us, we pretend to watch the ads"

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[jackhererUK]

I have never understood what service Tivo are providing for their monthly fee, why doesn't it just work?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[CohibaVancouver]

I guess I have gotten too old and my skills with the VCR has dropped but I don't remember being able to play live TV and hit the Pause button and had my show pause. Then Rewind play a part I missed then fast forward to the live content after say some commercials.

Sure, but this isn't "time shifting" - "Time Shifting" is "shifting the time" you watch a program. So if your VCR records SNL and you watch it the next day, you've time-shifted it. Pausing live TV and watching a show as it records and all that other business is just icing on the cake.

The VCR can simulate Time Shifting but only after it has fully recorded the program

This isn't simulating time shifting, it *is* time shifting.

It's like arguing a film camera can't "take pictures" because the pictures aren't available until you process the film.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[kungfugleek]

My mom is The Doctor's mother. So she gave birth to time, sorta.

No. She gave birth to "MickyTheIdiot".

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Panaflex]

I'd agree... there wasn't much on TV worth watching in the beginning. For many years, TV was a rich man's toy. It wasn't until after WWII that it even began to build market share.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[brianf711]

Actually my Dad says that in the days before radio, they would often tell stories they had heard as a kid. So "time shifting" is at least as old as story telling...

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[acohen1]

There was an interesting in-between technology that forget the name of that had a code printed in the tv-guide that you could enter into the vcr and it would automatically program the recording time for that item.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[sdnick]

Yeah time-shifting is nothing new. It has existed ever since the Sony Umatic VCR released circa 1969. That VCR was too expensive, so Sony went back and created the Betamax (anc JVC copied it to create VHS) in 1975. DVR is not even the first digital recording method - that was miniDV and Digital VHS in the early 1990s. ----- People have been time-shifting for decades. All the DVR did was replace the magnetic tape storage with magnetic disk storage. Nothing revolutionary... it was an evolutionary change.

I'd say replacing the sequential access of a tape drive with random access and the ability to write one portion of a program while reading earlier portions qualifies as revolutionary change. For most people, the "wow" factor of the DVR comes from the ability to continue program recording while they pause their viewing. This can't be done with a tape drive. Also, Tivo was the first service I know of to make this sort of programming manipulation easy to do, with a built in scheduling guide and a user-interface that's still the best I've seen in DVRs.

As for why Tivo is not more popular? Because there are tons of other options. I have a Panasonic ReplayTV that has no subscription fees whatsoever. Ditto my Dish DTVpal which cost $250 flat and no subscription fees. It seemed a no-brainer to buy these DVRs rather than buy a Tivo with a monthly rental.

Perhaps if Tivo eliminated the monthly fee, then they'd takeoff like iPod, but most people simply don't see the need to throw-away money like that. They have to budget their spending, which means they choose options without the fees (like I did).

The reason I finally gave up my TiVO is because DirecTV made it impossible to use DVR features with their HD programming unless you use DirecTV's DVRs. And this kind of lockout is a very big reason - perhaps the biggest reason - behind "why Tivo is not more popular". It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if DirecTV's DVRs were even close to Tivo's in terms of user-interface, responsiveness and ease of use.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't shift your mother's time with a 10 foot wormhole.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[powerlord]

I keep seeing people say that a lifetime subscription to TiVo pays for itself after 2-3 years. Since I don't want the subscription, I don't see how paying an upfront fee for the subscription can pay for itself over time.

Okay, I'll rephrase it. When you pay for a "Lifetime Subscription" you are paying for a TiVo box that is not being Subsidized by their expected profit from the Monthly Subscription fees.

The unsubsidized cost is higher upfront, but removes the recurring monthly fees. The cost paid for the Unsubsidized cost usually drops below the cost for a Subsidized box, plus the accumulated monthly fees after 2-3 years.

If you don't want the monthly fee because you think the monthly fee is too expensive, then looking at it as a cost distributed over the life of the TiVo DVR, might help decrease the effective cost for some people (currently my TiVo is 3 years old and counting).

If you don't want the monthly fee because you don't want another monthly fee, then the lifetime also addresses that, since it raises the initial investment but removes the monthly recurring charge (this was a big factor for me).

If you don't want the monthly fee, OR the lifetime fee (for an unsubsidized box), because you believe that it just costs too much, then you're right. TiVo is probably not what you are looking for.

For lots of us though, having an Appliance that "just works" and can pass the "Wife Test" without our needing to perform a complicated setup or ongoing maintenance is worth it, even with the relatively high up-front cost, once you remove the ongoing monthly fees.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Ray]

Just a quibble (that's what /.'s for, right?). JVC didn't copy Sony. The companies worked together to create working conceptual models and VHS was the first version. Beta was the second, hence the name.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Ray]

I "time shifted" the audio portion of the Ed Sullivan show the night the Beatles first appeared by setting up my reel-to-reel with a microphone in front of the TV set speaker. Why do that? Well, being (a child of) a good Southern Baptist, I was at church at the time.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[dzfoo]

>> Now, only if she we're here to keep me off of internet discussion sites. I'd have all that time back.

Your creative and seemingly random use of apostrophes intrigues me.

      -dZ.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[drsmithy]

A cup of... WHAT?

It's English slang. That it refers to a cup of tea should be both obvious and inescapable.

When someone says they're heading down the pub for a pint, do you get distressed because they don't tack "of beer" on the end ?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[blackest_k]

well its not quite realtime

but say a broadcast starts at 6 and your dvr begins to record it you come in 15 minutes later and start watching at the start while the dvr is recording with now a 15 minute buffer.
you decide to take a leak and pause then return to watching 3 minutes later now 18 minutes behind the broadcast. An ad break comes on and you skip through 5 minutes of ads putting you 13 minutes behind broadcast time.

now you could perhaps use a vcr to record a program but you couldnt start watching it while it was still being recorded.

its also great if your stopped in the middle of your program by somebody at the door. you can go back to your program and catch up from where you left off. A vcr you would have to slam in a tape and wait for your program to finish before resuming. Did i mention you can change channels automatically if you planned your evenings viewing. having programs on the hdd means you can grab something you want to watch when there is nothing worth watching.

VCR barely scratches the surface of what can be done with time shifting.
Of course the networks will try to make things difficult no easy way of cherry picking the olympics but at least you can fast forward.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Fareq]

The service that they are providing is agreeing not to send the command that will brick your device so long as you keep paying.

That's why I will never buy one.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[LBt1st]

I'm pretty sure my old TV capture card with DVR predated the Tivo. I could be wrong but I am skeptical that Tivo was first. Maybe the first console unit?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[severoon]

It seemed a no-brainer to buy these DVRs rather than buy a Tivo with a monthly rental.

Don't pay the monthly rental. Get a TiVo with lifetime service. They provide a bunch of plans, but really there's only one decision to make:

• I will pay the $12.95/month. I plan to waste money by throwing my TiVo away shortly after buying it.
• I will keep my TiVo at least 31 months because I'm a sensible person, so I will buy the lifetime subscription ($399 / $12.95 = 30.8 months break-even)

If you're not paying a monthly subscription for your ReplayTV, that means at some point in the past you've done the same...paid the lifetime subscription fee. Otherwise, it's $12.95/month for that too.

I have to say that one of the best things about TiVo is that it now provides access to a lot of web shows. I probably watch as much web TV (a good part of which is Revision3) as normal TV. Ok, not with the Olympics...but normally.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

Theres no alternatives to spending absurd fees for cellphone service, short of forgoing the service.

The only thing you lose by not going with TiVo and their monthly fee is you dont get the season pass or recommendations TiVo is known for, but the only time I hear about the recommendations are from people making jokes about how bad their tivo is at knowing what they like.

Personally I've gone through two different cable providers renting STBs, both only cost a few dollars more a month which was a better deal because when they die you can get them replaced for free (I doubt TiVo offers that).

Now I just have a HTPC in my livingroom and let usenet and bittorrent do the timeshifting for me. Rather than catch it as it airs, you download it later that night and dont have to worry about local networks preempting the show, local transmission problems, power outages, or anything else that isnt network wide.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

So, you are saying that Tivo needs $650 to cover the cost and make a profit on a DVR that has less than 750 GB of storage space? I don't see it.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[liquidsin]

really, mods? how is this even remotely interesting? it's kind of like telling someone they can save money on steaks by buying in bulk, and getting the reply "well i don't even like beef, so i fail to see how i'm saving money". if you don't want the thing we're talking about, your opinions on the pricing of said thing aren't required.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[nabsltd]

Coax to VCR and from VCR to TV. Set VCR to record channel 32, press TV/VCR button and then use the TV as you would.

This comes nowhere close to what TiVo does.

TiVo was the first consumer device that would let you start watching a recording before the recording finished. It was also likely the first consumer device that allowed you to watch a finished recording while another recording was in progress. This is what the TiVo patents mostly cover, and although I don't agree that you should be able to patent software, the software/hardware combination that TiVo sold is worthy of a patent.

Without several VCRs, lots of tape juggling, and careful planning, you can't come close to what TiVo does. I know, because I used to have 4 VCRs, and on bad nights, three of them were active at the same time.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

When someone says they're heading down the pub for a pint, do you get distressed because they don't tack "of beer" on the end ?

I think I would be distressed if they said, "I'm heading down to the pub for a pint of." If the term was cup and not cuppa then your argument would make sense. Also, since coffee is a much more common drink in America than tea when speaking of a cup of anything, I don't think cuppa being tea is in anyway obvious, and, judging by the responses in this thread, it is hardly inescapable.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Joe Tie.]

Oh xcd, you're like a window into a world where 99% of firefighters are women and 99% of nurses are men.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Surt]

Re: your sig ... don't worry about it, we're going to inflate it away. Imagine if the statistic was $6500/household instead, and worry at that level.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[nacturation]

>> Now, only if she we're here to keep me off of internet discussion sites. I'd have all that time back.

Your creative and seemingly random use of apostrophes intrigues me.

Perchance, have you considered an inquiry regarding a newsletter subscription?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[CottonThePirate]

It's a bargin in terms of time compared to nothing, but that's not the space we're in. I have a Windows 7 Media center box (Only windows box I own). It does DVR functions, plays netflix and DVDs. It gets free guides forever, and can sleep, saving me $10 a month in power costs over my old TiVo. (Electricity is very expensive where I live). This box was $300 at walmart + a $70 tuner. It's onboard HDMI outputs 1080p video flawlessly and overall it is more "snappy" than my old TiVo HD. This to me is more a bargin than any Tivo. And this without the fact that I can dig out the keyboard and have a full computer (which I don't use it for often, but still)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Darinbob]

Many patents are obvious in hindsight. And there's no requirement that they not be obvious, they just need to be novel. As in no one has done it before. There had been time shifting before, but for things like the 5 second delay to allow bleeping out obscenities, stuff like that. But there was nothing at all like the Tivo with the ability to control a live video feed as if it was just another recording before.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Darinbob]

Agreed. TV fees are small. If you were on a normal cable or broadcast and had no other option, the Tivo made sense. Sure it would be nice if it was cheaper or free, but it's not a burden. Compare it to the alternatives. I can get DirecTV+Tivo for a a LOT less money than Comcast and their DVR rippoff, or similar price to Dish but with a lousy almost-there solution. But sure, you can avoid the ($40+5)/mo service and stick it to the man by going with the $80/mo option. I cheap enough I don't even pay to have texting on my phone, but I'll pay a little to have a better and cheaper TV system than the competition.

I think one snag here was that the subscription service made sense in the early days of Tivo. Ie, it supplied the TV schedules and kept them up to day, and at the time there was no alternative. Since then the technology has changed, and this information is available from the cable and broadcasters; so when you have an integrated DVR with your normal subscription this schedule information is integrated as well. But since there is no standard here, you can not take a stand-alone Tivo or other DVR and have it retrieve schedule information from any old cable/sat/broadcast signal.

So the subscription makes sense for a stand alone Tivo system, but for integrated systems they should drop the fee.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

And there's no requirement that they not be obvious

US patent law requires an invention to be non-obvious

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[unitron]

So you were in "Training Union" that night too, huh? : - )

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[ncc74656]

There was an interesting in-between technology that forget the name of that had a code printed in the tv-guide

You're thinking of VCR Plus. While my newer VCRs supported it, I never used it as it only (AFAIK) scheduled one recording of a show instead of setting up a weekly (or whatever) recording.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[gtbritishskull]

You still have a VCR? I can't tell if your comment is sarcastic or serious. I am really hoping for sarcastic.

But, just in case...

Our dear friend mdwh2 was arguing that you could get the same functionality out of a VCR as out of a DVR (somehow by having one with two tape decks). I refuted that statement. Whether or not that is the way it should be was not under debate. Just whether it is or is not the case. I actually do not even have cable, so hence have no DVR. How is that for "entitlement"? But that has nothing to do with whether or not a VCR can pause/fast-forward/rewind live video.

I will get off your lawn now, sir.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[powerlord]

So, you are saying that Tivo needs $650 to cover the cost and make a profit on a DVR that has less than 750 GB of storage space? I don't see it.

Then don't buy it (which I assume you haven't).

I guess TiVo disagrees with you though, or they would be selling them for less.
You're probably not the only one who "doesn't see it" or they would be selling more of them.

The $650 is supposed to cover:
- The cost of the hardware (including not only "standard" parts like 750GB of storage, "non-standard" parts like the dual tuners, CableCard slots, etc.), along with some cost "because they can" (i.e. its not an OEM price)
- The cost of the software, both DVR functionality and UI (R&D cost which is a huge part of it I imagine, bug fixes, new feature updates)
- The cost of the licensing Patents/Royalties (both theirs, to file and protect, and others, to license and use)
- The cost of the program guides information
- The cost of the TiVo backend infrastructure to support the remote updates of appliance (software and program guide information)
- The cost of them integrating all the above pieces into one "appliance"

If you think its overpriced, do it cheaper and better and the world will beat a path to your door.
MythTV has tried to, but has met with even less success than TiVo.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

But my point is that is why Tivo hasn't sold more. This whole discussion is about why Tivo is not more popular. I gave a reason and your response is "then don't by one." I haven't.
I think my reason for not buying one explains why more people haven't bought them. Do you disagree?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

really, mods? how is this even remotely interesting? it's kind of like telling someone they can save money on steaks by buying in bulk, and getting the reply "well i don't even like beef, so i fail to see how i'm saving money". if you don't want the thing we're talking about, your opinions on the pricing of said thing aren't required.

See you and I have different ideas of what a Tivo is. You appear to think that Tivo is a service that comes with hardware. I think that Tivo is hardware that comes with a service I don't want.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

In my first reply to this I missed some of what you wrote:

The $650 is supposed to cover:
- The cost of the hardware (including not only "standard" parts like 750GB of storage, "non-standard" parts like the dual tuners, CableCard slots, etc.), along with some cost "because they can" (i.e. its not an OEM price)
- The cost of the software, both DVR functionality and UI (R&D cost which is a huge part of it I imagine, bug fixes, new feature updates)
- The cost of the licensing Patents/Royalties (both theirs, to file and protect, and others, to license and use)

Ok, up to here, all of this reflects either value to me, or cost of doing business to deliver that value.

- The cost of the program guides information
- The cost of the TiVo backend infrastructure to support the remote updates of appliance (software and program guide information)
- The cost of them integrating all the above pieces into one "appliance"

This is the part I don't want to pay for, because as far as I am concerned it adds no value.

As far as MythTV goes, I am unaware of any store I can walk into, buy one, take it home, connect it to my TV and I'm ready to go. I could do all of that with a VCR.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[StormCrow]

In my first reply to this I missed some of what you wrote:

- The cost of the program guides information

- The cost of the TiVo backend infrastructure to support the remote updates of appliance (software and program guide information)

- The cost of them integrating all the above pieces into one "appliance"

This is the part I don't want to pay for, because as far as I am concerned it adds no value.

As far as MythTV goes, I am unaware of any store I can walk into, buy one, take it home, connect it to my TV and I'm ready to go. I could do all of that with a VCR.

Then you're missing the major draw of what the TiVo can do. The draw of the TiVo isn't that it's a fancy VCR that you don't have to put tapes in, it is that you tell the TiVo what kind of programming you like and it GOES OUT AND FINDS IT FOR YOU. That means that it'll chase down your favorite program when the network decides to go hide it in another time slot. It'll look at the programming you like and find similar programs to record in the free space you've got left over (if you don't disable the feature). All these things require a constant source of program data, something that doesn't come free.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

Well, apparently a lot of other people don't think that "major draw" is worth the money either. Otherwise, why haven't more people bought Tivos? That is the question the article asks.
It is possible that if I could buy the Tivo without the commitment to the feature you say is so wonderful, I would decide that "Yes, that would be worth the extra money. I'll sign up." But that is not an option. I'm not convinced that feature is worth anything to me and I believe that a lot of other people feel the same way.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[tighr]

Not the same thing. Maybe if someone says they're heading down to the pub for a pintaa, which would be a phrase that would definitely strike me as odd.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

Tivo HAS NO (monthly) SUBSCRIPTION fees either -- optionally.

I have NEVER paid a monthly fee for Tivo. I'm a huge fan of Tivo, but would very likely not pay monthly for it. (For a hypothetical ridiculously low monthly fee, then yes I would pay that -- but not for even the lower multiple service discount they already give.)

I bought lifetime subscriptions for my Tivos, and so can everyone else. (Yes, there were times when they didn't offer lifetime subscriptions, but they're available now, so it's moot.)

For your ReplayTV, you paid a fee at purchase time (or possibly it was rolled into the purchase price - Replay used both methods). It's rolled into the Moxi purchase price too IIRC.

So just consider a Tivo the hardware price + lifetime service fee... and even with older Tivos, lifetime'd Tivos eBay for a significant amount.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

Read my other reply. My Tivos have FREE television guides and auto-recording of my favorite programs too.

Actually, yours don't. ReplayTVs are *time slot based*, and do not follow time slot changes, except IIRC one time slot before or after.. Tivos follow changes to ANY OTHER time/day change.. Season Passes are channel-based, and *NO* other DVR that I'm aware of has anything similar to Tivo's WishLists.. I very often have had things recorded that I would have never found otherwise -- musician performances mostly. (You can make wishlists either auto-record or not auto-record.. I only set a few to auto-record.)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[twitchingbug]

For you, I understand that Tivo is better than a smartphone plan. I get it.

But you can't really argue that it's that way for the general public. Money has spoken and _in most cases_ people are willing to front the $80 bucks vs a Tivo, which is why Tivo is in trouble, and Apple is raking in a fortune.

a couple points:

1) 15 years ago, cell phones were just becoming mainstream
2) I'll argue that 15 years ago, people _wanted_ information wherever/whenever - it just wasn't technically feasible, or exorbitantly expensive
3) There aren't many options for non monthly fee cell phone plans - sure there are prepaid plans, but there's some threshold of talk time for which a regular plan makes sense. This point applies to those people.
4) most people have cell phones already. Which makes the data plan upsell easier.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[MrHops]

Yeah time-shifting is nothing new. It has existed ever since the Sony Umatic VCR released circa 1969. That VCR was too expensive, so Sony went back and created the Betamax (anc JVC copied it to create VHS) in 1975. DVR is not even the first digital recording method - that was miniDV and Digital VHS in the early 1990s. ----- People have been time-shifting for decades. All the DVR did was replace the magnetic tape storage with magnetic disk storage. Nothing revolutionary... it was an evolutionary change.

On the contrary! Using a disk to store data is completely revolutionary!


Sorry about that... couldn't help myself.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

It's not. Get a lifetime (of the box) subscription. The most likely thing to *ever* go bad is the hard drive, and that is easily fixable. (You can also replace the hard drive with a larger hard drive, and transfer [most] recordings to a computer, etc..)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

The "service" is guide data that's updated every day, plus software improvements. (Tivo is announcing *something* on March 2nd, and hopefully at least a major portion of the new features will also come to TivoHD/Series 3 machines that are already in the field... with *no* additional cost.. Obviously new features of new hardware, if that is being announced, won't be available on existing hardware.)

Do I think the monthly fee is too much? Yes, that's why I paid lifetime. But to say the "service" is something you don't want just means that you don't really want a DVR. There's nothing wrong with that, I have a non-Tivo DVR I *also* use (mostly to record things *from* my Tivo and watch faster-than-realtime.. Before most channels went digital [on cable, not just OTA], I also recorded a fair amount natively on it).

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

You do realize that Tivo and DirecTV have re-established their relationship, right? There is going to be a new "DirecTivo".. perhaps that is one thing going to be announced March 2nd.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

I actually do not even have cable, so hence have no DVR.

Does not compute, as DVRs (and VCRs before them) work fine for OTA.

(Though on this topic, even though I am a huge Tivo fan as my other posts in this thread have shown, I'm one of those who definitely consider Tivo *evolutionary*, not revolutionary. I was using multiple VCRs to avoid most commercials looooong before having Tivos.)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

Yes, I do want a DVR. I just don't want it to automatically record shows. I want to tell it if I want to record what is on at a particular time. I want to be able to decide that I want to record a show that I can start watching it after it has started. I don't know why you think the guide data is somehow an integral part of being a DVR. I understand why you think that is a useful feature, it just isn't worth any money to me. I never needed software updates for my VCR, why do I need software updates for my DVR?

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

Because software updates can add new features? (Heck, I would have paid $$$ for software updates for VCRs, like *more programming slots* -- 8 was so limiting, and being able to have recordings happen only some specific days of the week.. e.g. multiple days, Tues-Sat for late night shows.)

OK, so I would say you don't really want a "DVR", you want a "digital VCR" [sic]... manual programming, etc. As I said in another post, I have a non-Tivo manually-recording hard drive/DVD recorder too..

But having the guide data in the tivo (with full program details) is SO useful. Is it worth over $10/month to me? No.. that's why I paid lifetime.. and the amortized price I'm paying goes down every month.

I also like it handling time slot changes, which happen reasonably often.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

DVR= digital video recorder. That's what I want. Not a service that tries to figure out what I want to watch. Not a service that records the shows I want to watch whenever they come on. Not a service that knows my watching habits (and can sell that info to other companies). Just a digital video recorder.
This is a discussion about why more people don't buy a Tivo. That is my answer. They don't want the subscription. If Tivo had sold their DVRs as solo devices with the option of adding the subscription (either immediately or later as the customer chose), there is a good chance that many people would have bought the Tivo without a subscription and decided later that the subscription had value (and then bought it).

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[mattack2]

So you want the equivalent of a 'digital vcr'.. that's what I said.

So you lose out when a show moves timeslot and/or have to carefully pay attention to the listings.

(I personally *DO* tend to check out the To Do list on my Tivo, but that's just because there are sometimes more shows than tuners that I can record with.. so I micromanage things.. If I had double the tuners I had now [to add padding to EVERYTHING], I would check out the to do list MUCH less frequently.)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey communist loving fuckwad, why don't you go and do all of us a fucking favor and GO SLIT YOUR FUCKING WRISTS AS YOU ARE SO FUCKING WORTHLESS!!!

- StormCrow (10254)

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Attila Dimedici]

So you want the equivalent of a 'digital vcr'.. that's what I said.

Yes, but you, also, said that that isn't a DVR. just because everyone who markets a DVR also sells a service, doesn't mean that the service is what makes it a DVR.

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Anonymous Coward]

totally agree!
my grand father could talk about history up to a few centuries ago. Today's kids talk about history up to a few years ago.

Maybe it's because today when kids say they write something it's less than 140 characters long.
When my grand father wrote something it was more like 140 pages long...

Re:TiVo invented timeshifting?

[Gr8Apes]

Sorry, but the concept of reading a file while still writing it has been around for ages. "tail" has been around how long? And I'm certain it's not the first either.

Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[Anonymous Coward]

"The key takeaway seems to be that TiVo is a victim of cable industry collusion, loopholes in FCC regulations, and, of course, plenty of their own mistakes.""

Is Tivo ready for streaming Internet TV? The popcorn hour and the boxee sure are.

Re:Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[jedidiah]

Some of the Tivo's decline is attributable to the fact that they stopped evolving. Instead of
improving their product, they decided to sue potential competitors. They also decided to get in
bed with Big Cable. Once they were the only "authorized" 3rd party content channel they were in
a very precarious position.

They would have been much better off with an entire cabal of similar companies by their side.

Tivo was surpassed by Free Software and stymied by HDTV standards intended to allow for openness
but really only served as a means to lock out most of the market.

Re:Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[GigG]

"Is Tivo ready for streaming Internet TV? The popcorn hour and the boxee sure are."

Yes it is. It can stream from several sources.

Re:Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[h4rr4r]

Several sounds pretty limited. Can it play a stream from my pc, without the use of any tivo specific software?
Even a PS3 can do that.

Re:Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[GigG]

Yes a PC can do many if not most things Tivo can do. But the Tivo requires no support from me, other than writing a check. Everyone in the house can easily download a movie from Amazon or add a show to season pass.

Re:Streaming TV meets the DVR.

[lkeagle]

Several sounds pretty limited. Can it play a stream from my pc, without the use of any tivo specific software?
Even a PS3 can do that.

I'm pretty sure your PS3 is incapable of doing just about anything without PS3-specific software...

Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo: $250 up-front + $7 / mo CableCard rental + $15 / mo Tivo Subscription fee
vs.
Cable: $15 / mo for something that works for most people.

(...and if your Tivo breaks, you get to buy another one.)

Re:Simple reason

[Enry]

With Comcast, the CableCard was free, and I'm paying $4.95 for my CC with FIOS. As for the monthly fees, they're about $8/mo if you pre pay for 3 years. In addition, there's built in access to Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, etc.

As for the Cable-provided set top boxes, yuck. None have the flexibility of what the Tivo can do, including the ability to transfer some shows to your PC. Not much access to anything outside what the Cable provider decides you should have, which is usually the on demand stuff and..uhm..that's it.

My Tivo HD is almost 3 years old and it's working well so far (well enough I'm considering upgrading the internal disk). I'm looking forward to the next box to see what its capabilities are.

Re:Simple reason

[soup4you2]

When I purchased my TiVo i was given the option for the lifetime service. It was somewhere around $300 however it has paid for it's self in savings of not having to pay for the cable company's DVR capabilities. I love my TiVo box now, and the fact that I don't have any extra monthly bills makes it even better. 2 cable cards is still cheaper than 1 HD box rental. and I'm not really missing the on-demand. I have Netflix for that.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

So you are saying it is $13/mo if you pre-pay for 3 years, plus you get to buy the hardware, and if the hardware breaks after the 365th day, you get to pay another $250 for a new box and another fee to move the subscription. Such a deal! Note that I went through three, count 'em, THREE S3 boxes in the first 21 days before I gave up on Tivo ... at the time, I had been a long time Tivo user and an early adopter (got my S1 in 1999).

As for the Cable-provided set top boxes, yuck. None have the flexibility of what the Tivo can do,

Which is irrelevant to most people.

including the ability to transfer some shows to your PC.

Which is irrelevant to most people.

Not much access to anything outside what the Cable provider decides you should have,

Which is irrelevant to most people.

which is usually the on demand stuff and..uhm..that's it.

How many free on-demand TV shows and movies do you get with your Tivo? Because scanning through my OnDemand list, there are hundreds of free offerings including many of this weeks episodes of both broadcast and cable network shows. This is a feature that customers do use that, IIRC, is not available at all on Tivo (since Cablecards have no access to OnDemand).

Re:Simple reason

[johnlcallaway]

You forgot ... TV Video card for your computer: Around $20-$100 and no monthly fee. Software to use Video card -- $0 to $100 and no monthly fee While it may not be the reason for most people, that's why I don't have a Tivo. I did spend the $100 for software just because I was too lazy to setup the free stuff.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Struct]

The cost is the primary reason I don't have a Tivo anymore. When we bumped up to HD, the HD Tivo was something like $800, so we just went with TWC's DVR. I'm on the verge of going back to Tivo, though, because the box from TW is probably about the most useless pile of electronics you can possibly assemble and still legally refer to as a DVR. It sometimes just fails to record, and probably 4 out of 5 times, fast-forwarding or rewinding will desync the audio. Tivo was expensive, but it never had rookie problems like that.

Re:Simple reason

[DougWebb]

As for the Cable-provided set top boxes, yuck. None have the flexibility of what the Tivo can do, including the ability to transfer some shows to your PC. Not much access to anything outside what the Cable provider decides you should have, which is usually the on demand stuff and..uhm..that's it.

I've got one more, which was the final straw for me before I switched to TiVo: the Comcast-provided box had such poor quality Comcast-provided software that it crashed all of the time, wiping out both my existing recordings and all of my schedules. A DVR is really not worth very much if it can only be reliably used to pause live TV.

Re:Simple reason

[digitalaudiorock]

Tivo: $250 up-front + $7 / mo CableCard rental + $15 / mo Tivo Subscription fee vs. Cable: $15 / mo for something that works for most people.

(...and if your Tivo breaks, you get to buy another one.)

...or in my case, HD TV over an antenna $0/month, schedulesdirect.com listings for $20/year, and a three-tuner mythtv system with a TB of disk (which cost a crapload more than $250 of course).

Re:Simple reason

[Binestar]

Those features that you are saying are irrelevant really are not. Perhaps the transfer shows TO your computer isn't that great, but for $25 you can transfer shows FROM your computer to your Tivo. The series 3 is also a netflix viewer, youtube viewer, picture viewer (I only use it a couple of times a year. Once on each of my daughters birthdays for a slide-show of pictures that runs in the background from the last year. The netflix viewer has allowed me to show older cartoons easily to my kids (They have the original Inspector Gadget on the Streaming todo list and have watched each episode at least twice) Might not seem like much, but those features specifically are very nice and the average household would use them.

Re:Simple reason

[toleraen]

Exactly this. I would really like to get rid of my piece of crap Comcast DVR, but TiVo doesn't have enough value add for the cost right now. If TiVo lowered their monthly fee to $5 I'd probably jump on board though.

Re:Simple reason

[Sporkinum]

Same here. Paid $250 for a refurb system that came with a dual tuner card and remote, and vista media center. Spent another $60 for a dedicated 320 GB drive for media center. No rental, no fees, and it's trivial to control with the xbox or copy shows to my mp3 player. That worked for me, but the real reason as I see it, is that they charge a large fee for tv listings.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Most content providers encrypt the QAM streams for all but local over-the-air channels so the computer card is no longer really an option.

Re:Simple reason

[Wiarumas]

Exactly. I just don't have enough reason to justify the price. I checked it out on more than one occasion, but I hardly find it worth the price when I don't watch that much TV to begin with. Seems like a fun toy, but I'll just find something on regular cable and pocket that extra dough. Its convenient, but not enough to warrant the cost. If they want further adoption, they need a pricing strategy that customers are willing to pay, or come up with some more innovation that people can't live without. Let's be real, majority of the iPod's success was because it was more convenient to have ALL of your music wherever you go (walking, in the car, at a friend's house, etc). Tivo doesn't have that much of a life changing impact unless you are a couch potato who doesn't have the internet.

Re:Simple reason

[stevenliv]

That works great for analog channels, but what if your cable company has removed all of its analog channels. Comcast here has no analog channels, and the digital channels (HD and SD)are all encrypted. except for local channels. To get those channels with a PC will require a cable card, and perhaps a more expensive video card that supports HDCP, etc. When things get this complicated that is when it makes sense to get a TivoHD.

Re:Simple reason

[Andy Dodd]

"and probably 4 out of 5 times, fast-forwarding or rewinding will desync the audio"
Sorry to say it, but an HD TiVo might not improve anything there.

Why? Because just like the TW box, the HD TiVos directly record the digital transport stream rather than encode the analog video signal in realtime. The streams themselves are broken from TW, not the playback/recording device. (Some worse than others - TWC's re-feed of CBS in my area is AWFUL. I have to perform a lossless transcode of every CBS recording in MythTV to fix CBS streams. Other channels are fine to play back even with direct recording.)

Re:Simple reason

[DaFallus]

You also forgot to mention that you have to sign up for an annual contract. You cannot just pay $15 a month and quit at any time or you will be charged a $150 cancellation fee. This happened when I finally canceled my service. The real kicker was that they charged me the fee twice in error yet withheld $8 when they refunded me the double charge. This was an issue for me because the checking account I had the service linked to did not have much money in it and it became overdrawn. They claimed the discrepancy had something to do with sales tax and that I would have to contact the tax office to get my money back from them. They absolutely refused to simply cover the $8 difference since it was their mistake in the first place. The man on the phone was actually quite rude about it as well.

To sum up, TiVo made a mistake and I had to pay for it. I will never do business with them again and I have been sure to warn everyone I know about how greedy these assholes are and to stay away from them. Also, never link any service or account to a checking account. It is much easier to issue a charge-back or stop payment on a credit card.

Re:Simple reason

[Abcd1234]

It ain't perfect, but you can just go old-school and use analog capture + IR blasters. That's the setup I have for my dual-tuner config and it works brilliantly. And now that cheap analog HD capture is available, you can even capture HD content this way.

'course, at that point it's suddenly more work than what most people are willing to go through.

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

Everything you described I can do with my PS3. With no monthly free. Plus, I can play Blu-ray disks.

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

s/free/fee

Re:Simple reason

[rbf2000]

You could always go the lifetime service route. It adds $400 to the upfront cost ($300 for any subsequent TiVo).

With a $20/month DVR rental fee and $5/month CableCard rental fee you'd break even in less than four years. Even sooner if you bought multiple TiVos with lifetime service plans.

I would estimate that you can reasonably expect a TiVo to last about 5 years, so in the long run it's cheaper to buy TiVo and you get a much better experience.

Re:Simple reason

[BlackSnake112]

So Tivo is more like a computer. Why not just get a computer and add in the capture cards. Then you have all the DVR functions, computer functions, and you do not have a monthly fee to use it*.

*I am not including the cable, fios, or what ever other bill since you have that bill with any option. Depending on your choice some software wants a monthly/yearly fee to get the TV listings.

Re:Simple reason

[slim]

I have to perform a lossless transcode of every CBS recording in MythTV to fix CBS streams.

Doesn't MythTV allow you to tweak the audio sync as you watch? XBMC does -- it's a real boon with video from, um, certain sources.

Re:Simple reason

[mattgoldey]

I'd love to know what cable provider you have because I've gone through a STACK of cable company provided DVRs and they have all been JUNK. They would frequently just not record a program for no apparent reason... the drive wasn't full, there were no schedule conflicts, it just wouldn't record. Additionally, while recording a show, the menus would get so bogged down that there would be a lag of several seconds between the time you press a button on the remote and the time that the DVR until the time the DVR actually took action. And God help you if you wanted to fast-forward or rewind a program while recording another.

This was not just on one or two units. This was on at least 3 (but I think maybe 4) different units.

On top of all that, the OS on the cable company provided units had a terrible terrible interface. The only one that even comes close is the AT&T Uverse DVR that my parents have. It seems decent.

I have never ever had any of those issues with my TiVo. As the Apple guys say... it just works. Beautifully.

And in my case, the monthly TiVO subscription and monthly CableCard rental add up to the same price my cable provider was charging for their crappy DVR. So the only difference is the up-front cost. To me it is COMPLETELY worth it.

Re:Simple reason

[bleh-of-the-huns]

One reason is that you require a cable card, and currently the only capture cards that support cable card are oem based and only work under Vista or Windows 7 (and possibly XP Media Center Edition).

I do have an S3, I like it (although it is dog slow sometimes). For media, I have an Xbox360, ps3 or XBMC which I use as my media server.

But for TV.. the Tivo is the way to go if you do not want to use the supplied cable box (which from verizon.. is absolute garbage)

Re:Simple reason

[bleh-of-the-huns]

Slightly off topic.. and while I do have a Tivo..

My XBMC (I tried mythtv, just do not like it) box runs on a little netbook with nvidia ion chipset for hardware hd. Back end is another story, storage is dual quad core cpu's, 16G ram, and currently running opensolaris using zfs on 8 500TB drives, and 2 1TB drives (soon to add 6 more) :)

but while it serves media, its also a backup server, and iscsi server for my vmware lab machine at home. Way way way more expensive than any Tivo costs :)

Re:Simple reason

[johnlcallaway]

Works fine for me .... all I have is basic cable. I don't waste money on 100 more stations of 'nothing on to watch' When cable stops sending analog, I'll switch to over-the-air hd and drop basic cable.

Re:Simple reason

[ezelkow1]

Even with transport streams syncing still has to be done with the a/v. If the TW box is poorly coded and either does not have a good lipsync algorithm or is coded so poorly that its too slow to keep up with lipsync, then its still a box issue. If you dont notice the lipsync while watching it live, its not a stream failure. Not saying that tivo is any better at this, just pointing out that just because its a TS doesnt mean its instantly in sync.

Re:Simple reason

[djrosen]

Yeah, but Tivo is a WFA (Wife Friendly Appliance) It has the smallest learning curve next to a TV, even compared with say, DirecTV's HD DVR. Most wives, girlfriends, grandmas etc dont have the time/inclination/geek factor to learn all the nuances of a PS3 or that new XBMC PC you just built.

Tivo didnt just make it easy, they made it brainless. That alone is worth the price of admission.

I never had a regular TiVO, just the one DirecTV used, which was AWESOME, I used the same box for 7 years, only issues were HD's dying which can be replaced by the user, can you do that with a PS3? And when the PS4 comes out will you still be able to stream or will Sony turn it off to free resources for their next gen device like MS did for the original XBox?

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

Wife friendly

My wife uses two of our PS3s, one in the bedroom and one in the living room, without a problem to watch Netflix streaming and shows via Hulu

I used the same box for 7 years, only issues were HD's dying which can be replaced by the user, can you do that with a PS3?

Yes, easily. I upgraded both of our PS3s to 500GB hard drives to store more music, video, etc. Each one took less than 30 minutes.

And when the PS4 comes out will you still be able to stream or will Sony turn it off to free resources for their next gen device like MS did for the original XBox?

Who cares? We'll cross that bridge when we get there. Tivo, now, charges monthly. My PS3s cost nothing monthly. And Sony has no control if I stream via PlayOn, Netflix (via Bluray disk they provided), etc. unless they bork the functionality via a firmware update (which I have the option of not upgrading to).

Re:Simple reason

[johnlcallaway]

I have TV because it's cheap and for when I get bored. I don't have digital cable because COX cable charges extra for it. I don't have extended cable because there just isn't that much more to make it worth it. If analog goes away and they force me to pay for a digital box of some type, then I'll drop it completely and just use NetFlix.

I don't have to watch TV, I enjoy doing other things and don't sit around and 'be entertained'. I choose to watch it and am more than willing to stop watching it altogether when it costs more to me than it's worth. I used to record a few shows, but find myself doing it less and less.

So I guess it makes sense to get a Tivo if TV watching is that much a part of someone's life, or they don't mind spending the money. Maybe someday I'll be rich enough that spending $5 every month on something I don't use that much won't mean anything to me. But if my life ever gets that boring, I hope suicide is legal by then.

Re:Simple reason

[powerlord]

Tivo, now, charges monthly.

I thought they offered a "Lifetime Subscription" fee (the life of the box), that hit the break-even point after ~2-3 years?

If you don't want to pay a monthly fee, then get the Lifetime subscription (like I did), and enjoy your box without the monthly cost.

Yeah, it means more upfront cost, but it IS an option.

For the record, my Wife uses the TiVo (and loves it). She also uses the PS3 for DVD/Blu-Ray playback, but hasn't quite caught on to the Video download part of it. I'm also working with her on using the HTPC to watch Hulu, but it is slow going.

Re:Simple reason

[Hittman]

I've had Tivo almost since it's been out. I tried the Time Warner DVR and it was, hands down, the worst piece of consumer electronics I've ever used. (That includes the PC Jr. and top loading VCRs with mechanical tuners.) Even though it was much cheaper, and the whole package gave me more channels, after three weeks of frustration I had TW yank it out and went back to my Tivo.

That was back in 2003. I wrote about it, (http://www.davehitt.com/march03/twdvr.html) and I still get e-mail on that article, informing me that every complaint I had back then is still valid.

Tivo just works, and the UI is incredibly simple and intuitive. That's worth enough for some of us to pay the higher price.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when does the PS3 have a TV tuner? I've examined mine, and it doesn't appear to have one, let alone time-shifting capability.

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

Keep in mind, there is a $150 transfer fee to transfer your "lifetime" subscription to a new Tivo in the event your Tivo dies outside the 90 (wtf!) day warranty period.

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

Correction: The transfer fee applies even if the device is within warranty.

http://consumerist.com/2009/08/tivo-now-offers-exciting-new-dvr-immortality-transfer-fee.html

Re:Simple reason

[Golddess]

So basically your argument consists of "it's irrelevant to most people, therefore it's stupid and you're stupid for liking it", is that it? Because I really cannot see any other purpose to all of your "which is irrelevant to most people" comments.

if the hardware breaks after the 365th day, you get to pay another $250 for a new box and another fee to move the subscription

When I bought a TiVo HD 2 years ago to replace my S2, it did not cost me anything to transfer the remaining year of service to the new box. However, had the service on my S2 been a lifetime subscription, I would not have been able to move it at all.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot ...

TV Video card for your computer: Around $20-$100 and no monthly fee.
Software to use Video card -- $0 to $100 and no monthly fee

While it may not be the reason for most people, that's why I don't have a Tivo. I did spend the $100 for software just because I was too lazy to setup the free stuff.

This doesn't address the issue of getting HD cable from a system that requires cable cards. At that point, you're in pretty much the same boat as the tivo guys and the only difference is how much you're willing to pay for a UI and ease of use.

Re:Simple reason

[h4rr4r]

Some shows?
Do you own this box or the cable company?

Never seen a mythbox limit the shows you can copy off.

Re:Simple reason

[tohoward]

I don't have a clue why this argument keeps coming up. I've been with three providers in two jurisdictions, and when I actually bothered to do the math, Tivo was cheaper TCO in every case, and provided a better experience. Maybe different companies/locations have better pricing than where I live, or maybe people are just lazy. My current costing:

Verizon FIOS charges $20 for a HD DVR, that (feature wise) sucks compared to a Tivo HD (with $250 initial cost).

My Tivo HD fee is $99/year ($8.33 per month), plus the $2 cable card fee from FIOS, or about $11 per month. At $9 a month savings, a Tivo HD pays itself off in about 26 months. After that it's gravy. I lose "On Demand" from my provider but I get access to all the Amazon and Netflix on demand I want.

In my mind, given that the HW will likely last beyond 3 years, the ROI doesn't favor the cable company AT ALL. The only "problem" is this STUPID idea that it's better to pay more every frickin month than pay an up front cost up front (i.e. cell phone providers). The only thing that might tempt me away from Tivo is if I could get "Tivo Pick" functionality in my own "roll your own" (Myth, etc.) solution.

Re:Simple reason

[h4rr4r]

No that is when it makes the least sense. You're basically saying, "If they fuck with me enough I will just bend over and take it".

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Regular subscription = $8 a month. You'd jump on board for $5 a month.

You realize that the entirity of the savings of that is $36 a year. If you can't afford that, then perhaps you should think harder about the several hundred dollar layout for the device itself.

That always annoys me, when people say they will do something for like... $10 less a year, but completely ignore the hundreds of dollars to initially sign up. That's a looooot of years before your 'savings' pay for the device itself.

Re:Simple reason

[ShadowRangerRIT]

My Comcast box didn't lose my recordings or schedules, but seemed to exist as a fiendishly clever incentive to upgrade to the package with more HD channels, or force you to watch the commercials (not sure which). Due to poor scheduling priorities, input from the remote or the front buttons didn't have precedence over other tasks (like recording and playback). Which meant that if you started fast forwarding a show (which apparently put more strain on the CPU for decoding), it frequently wouldn't respond to further commands, at least, not without a great deal of lag.

In one particularly egregious case, I started fast forwarding during the opening credits (which I knew were followed by a commercial), and when I pressed play as the show picked up again, it didn't respond until it had fast forwarded 55 minutes into the future, meaning I'd just skipped the whole show. Adding to the confusion, the degree of the problem varied by channel.

The HD channels almost never had an issue (odd, since you'd think the decoding would use more resources, not less), the low numbered SD channels had the issue less, and the lag was less severe. But the high numbered SD channels that (IMO) had the worst picture quality (more compression artifacts than the low numbered ones) would hit this problem once or twice a show, and have severe problems (skipping ten minutes or more before responding) every half dozen shows or so.

I've since dropped cable entirely. My PC is hooked up to a TV tuner card so I can record OTA programming, which works really well since NYC switched to digital OTA. And as a side benefit, I'm not spending nearly as much time glued to the tube (or at least, that time is now used for video games, which are more satisfying).

Re:Simple reason

[acohen1]

A mythbox also can't access 1/3 of my cable channels.

Re:Simple reason

[Enry]

The argument is Tivo vs. standard STB, and the STB doesn't allow you to download anything. If you want to extend this to MythTV, submit your own story to Slashdot.

Right or wrong, Tivo has to abide by the CableCard rules, and one of those covers transfer of shows.

Re:Simple reason

[mik1995]

I just went back to Comcast (yes, it was a hard decision) and in the Boston area they now offer an upgrade to have the TiVo software (and remote) on their usual box. I went for it and I've got to say it's better in most respects than my TiVo HD in my living room.

One favorite aspect - it has PiP when you're in the 'now playing' menu, etc. Love it!

The extra cost per month for Comcast TiVo was at most $5, which is less than one of the cable cards in the TiVo. The box was free - I just don't get to keep it when I switch supplier again, hence I'm keeping the TiVo HD as well.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically your argument consists of "it's irrelevant to most people, therefore it's stupid and you're stupid for liking it", is that it? Because I really cannot see any other purpose to all of your "which is irrelevant to most people" comments.

Are you retarded? Seriously. Did you eat lead paint as a child? Get dropped on the head a few times? Drink rubbing alcohol?

The fairly obvious point being made was why the vast majority of DVR owners choose their CableCos offering instead of Tivo. The jist is that the feature-set that a Tivo provides has a limited audience that are not willing to plunk down the extra money for a third-party device.

No one said that a particular feature is "stupid" or that you are "stupid for liking it". In fact, as the original poster, I can tell you that I enjoy several of the features mentioned. However, I am not deluded (as time and time again the Slashdot audience proves it is) into thinking that the average person would feel that the feature is worth the cost to them.

Re:Simple reason

[bitflip]

$800? When I called up TiVo to cancel my subscription because I didn't want to pay that much, they looked at my account (I had a series 1), and offered the dual-tuner HD box for ~$200.

Totally worth it to get rid of that crap TW box. Crappier hardware/software I haven't seen in a long time.

Re:Simple reason

[Binestar]

Can the PS3 do the rest the Tivo can? Record TV, Season Passes, Suggestions, etc? You can point to things that do one thing the Tivo does well. But add all the features together and the Tivo is the best product.

Re:Simple reason

[TooMuchToDo]

I'm arguing the best product at the best cost. While Tivo will continue on for a bit, it's going to be hard to justify the need when the content you want is on demand (without the need to time shift).

Re:Simple reason

[Binestar]

I am confident that pure on demand content is more than the 5 years out it'll take for my Tivo to "pay for itself".

Re:Simple reason

[Darinbob]

That $15/mo is undoubtedly basic cable only, and analog quality. You also forgot the cost of the VCR and tapes (I was cheap though, I'd reuse the same tapes over and over until I'd lose a show :-).

Of course, I don't do cable. My satellite is cheaper than any cable option I can get, including basic analog cable (which is still A/B switch in my neighborhood unless I go digital). It's a no brainer. The Tivo option is only an extra $4.95 above that (I used to have the satellite control my vcr). It's vastly more convenient than VCR too, but sadly it does turn you into a couch potato. If you only watch 2 or 3 shows a week, and get caught up every week, then a DVR isn't worth the price.

Re:Simple reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, yes, yes it can. Sony's released an addon (or is going to release, I don't own a PS3 and therefore don't care) that makes a PS3 into a complete DVR.

Re:Simple reason

[Cramer]

Not true. I've never seen a Tivo lose sync on anything it's recorded -- which is what's being talked about: "fast-forwarding or rewinding". Even on an old S1 that couldn't keep up; it'll alter the audio playback speed and drop video frames to keep things in sync. (for normal shows, it's unnoticable. but for a concert, it's very annoying.)

If it were in the transmission stream, then it'd be out of sync during normal/live playback.

Re:Simple reason

[Idiomatick]

15$ a month doesn't buy you cable.

Re:Simple reason

[hazydave]

TiVo originally offered the lifetime subscription... I have this on my first TiVo box. It's a good investment, given this TiVo is around 10 years old, but also because it lowered the monthly fee on the second box. Since the very early days, TiVo has sometimes offered the lifetime subscription, sometimes not, sometimes allowed transfers (eg, when pushing Series 3 hardware to Series 1 owners like me... unfortunately, doesn't work with satellite HD), etc. So depending on when you bought a TiVo, lifetime subs were not always an option.

The PS3 isn't quite a TiVo replacement. Sure, you can download videos.. that was a retrofit into the TiVo, but it's also a pretty standard feature of most 2010-vintage dedicated Blu-Ray players. I suggest that "plays Netflix" is even more of a check-mark feature in modern set-top devices than "DVR" is today.

The PS3 is also a generally better video jukebox than a TiVo... it plays more video formats (ok, I haven't spent much time with a "Series 3"), it streams video over wireless or wired Ethernet without hacks or slowdowns, and in particular, it supports external storage, very easy internal drive upgrades, and built-in backup support to external media. In fact, the instructions for HDD upgrade were in the manual, at least when I got my PS3.

But the PS3 is not a functional time-shifting device... no way to record video.

Cost and portability

[Slippery Pete]

For me, I never got a Tivo because of the cost. You need to purchase the equipment and then pay a monthly fee. I believe it is $12.95/month now. I already pay $80/month for cable and Internet access, $50/month for phone, add on heat, electricity and rent and I'm already down a paycheck. I have a DVR at home built with leftover parts and a $40 tuner card that works just fine. I can also move those files between my laptop and any other computer, so I can take my recorded shows anywhere.

Re:Cost and portability

[__aamnbm3774]

i would mod you up if i could.

others above you touched on it, but either listed goofy equations with strange numbers (15/mo cable?? where is that deal), or didnt cover the entire issue.

If I purchase a 200 dollar box, I better be done shelling out cash for the thing.

Re:Cost and portability

[unitron]

I have a DVR at home built with leftover parts and a $40 tuner card that works just fine. I can also move those files between my laptop and any other computer, so I can take my recorded shows anywhere.

Can you watch those shows on an actual television set without having to use that set as the computer's video display?

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

As posted many times, don't think of it as a $200 box. Thing of that as the subsidized price. You buy for $200 and you're locked into a contract for $12/month. Or you can own your Tivo for $600. (Lifetime sub is $400.) Friend of mine insists on changing his phone every 2 years when the "free" phone becomes available from Verizon. I try to explain to him he would be better off just buying a phone directly and not getting locked into a contract but he won't hear it. That's what the $200 Tivo is. A Tivo with a contract. Look at the lifetime version -- more expensive up front, but the lifetime sub pays for itself in 2 and a half years.

Re:Cost and portability

[jedidiah]

> Can you watch those shows on an actual television set without having to use that set as the computer's video display?

Why should it matter? A real Tivo is nothing more than a specialized PC. That is
the essential bit of understanding that you gain from knowing what's actually
going on with the technology (and not being impressed by Tivo's bogus patents).

Tivos even run Linux. I can run Linux myself.

You can now buy a $200 PC with HDTV outputs and dedicated video playback hardware. You
can either make a full blown Tivo knockoff out of that or use it as an "extender". This
"extender" concept is something that is common to ALL other solutions but is sorely
lacking in Tivos.

The iPad is another good example of this concept: PC + software -> appliance.

Re:Cost and portability

[__aamnbm3774]

I was actually going to say they should subsidize the 200 dollars, since you need a monthly subscription anyway.

I mean comeon, the thing is a hard drive + some simple software. 600 bucks when mass-produced seems terribly overpriced.

Re:Cost and portability

[Anonymous Coward]

but either listed goofy equations with strange numbers (15/mo cable?? where is that deal)

We're talking about Tivo vs cable, so the $15 is obviously the monthly cost for a cableco DVR.

Dumbass.

Re:Cost and portability

[biryokumaru]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am rarely concerned with amortizing the cost of a measly $200 item.

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

What do you mean by extender?

Re:Cost and portability

[eXFeLoN]

a media extender.

Re:Cost and portability

[Excelcior]

That's a week's wages for me, you insensitive clod!

Re:Cost and portability

[Andy Dodd]

"I try to explain to him he would be better off just buying a phone directly and not getting locked into a contract but he won't hear it."

If he is planning on staying with Verizon for two more year anyway, then how is he better off? I don't know of any provider that gives "bring your own phone" discounts, so if you are going to be with the company for two years, why not get the subsidy on the phone? Otherwise, you are paying a few hundred dollars extra for the phone and still paying the same price for service, only gaining a small amount of freedom that is irrelevant if your plan is to stay with the company for two years anyway.

Re:Cost and portability

[MiniMike]

You can download shows from a Tivo, to a Windows or Linux machine (probably a Mac too, but I've never tried it). It's trivial to convert it into a mpeg, and then take it wherever you want. I do it all the time. The benefit to a Tivo is the interface, features, and convenience. Also, the first Tivo is $12.95/month, additional are only around $6. If you're happy with your system keep with it. I certainly have a list of complaints about Tivo (slow interface, horrendous internet speed through Tivo brand adapter, bugs in desktop software, etc.) but have still been reluctant to trade it for a list of complaints about a Myth TV or other DVR setup.

Re:Cost and portability

[Eponymous Coward]

I believe T-Mobile has "bring your own phone" discounts.

Re:Cost and portability

[Miamicanes]

> I don't know of any provider that gives "bring your own phone" discounts,

T-Mobile started doing it fairly recently. If you don't buy a subsidized phone, and you sign a contract, you can get their 'plus' plans, which are identical to the non-plus plans except they're cheaper. But AFAIK, Sprint, Verizon, and AT&T don't offer any discounts.

Re:Cost and portability

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know of any provider that gives "bring your own phone" discounts

Most providers do. T-Mobile Netherlands for example offers 50% discount compared to a plan with a subsidised phone.

Re:Cost and portability

[Gr8Apes]

case - generously $60.
motherboard/CPU - $60
memory - $40 (only because prices have gone up recently)
hard drive - $50
remote - $50 (generous)

software is free/owned by Tivo.

$260 for a decent box: This would be a dual core power efficient system with 2GB RAM and a 500GB HD. Probably more than what you get in a tivo box.

Re:Cost and portability

[debus]

That is exactly the problem I have with it: the monthly fee. It is outrageously high for providing scheduling information. If it was 1/2 the current price, I might be able to justify it. No way at 12.95. The hardware is a bit pricey, but it isn't really the deal breaker for me. I just can't abide that monthly fee.

Re:Cost and portability

[Hammor]

For me, I never got a Tivo because of the cost. You need to purchase the equipment and then pay a monthly fee.

I have a MythTV, and ever since that debacle with commercial builders flouting the terms of service at Zap2it Labs I have been paying Schedules Direct for my channel guide.

The lesson from Schedules Direct is that plenty of people who use Open Source are willing to pay for a service that has value.

Re:Cost and portability

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. I own a TiVo-s2, but only after trying to build one for myself. I bought a lifetime subscription a few months later and it is still working. That $300+$300 = $600 has saved me countless hours in dealing with TV shows, commercials while still letting me watch most the stuff I want.

I NEVER would have paid $600 for that, but since I was already in for $300 it made sense. I did the math - in a little over 16 months, my lifetime was paid for. My purchase was made in 2004. I'm 3 yrs beyond and have reduced my monthly fee to $5/month. I use my TiVo far more than any cell phone I've ever owned and it doesn't cost anywhere near the same amount. Most people can't use just $600/yr in cell charges.

The "free" DVRs included with cable or IP-TV are good enough. TiVo is significantly better, but "free" goes a long way and effectively locks TiVo out of those homes.

If TiVo wants to survive, they need to either get their costs included WITH the cable bill (and buried) or give the boxes away for free and get the monthly costs embedded in the cable bill. They can't charge for the boxes AND have a monthly fee. Writing a separate check every month to TiVo isn't good. Further, that bill is too high, $3 and people wouldn't care so much. $5 and we start avoiding, $10 and we don't want it unless we make over $150K/yr and it doesn't matter. The masses earn $60k, know it, learn it, use it. Get the bill included in any other common utility bill - power, phone, cable, gas and get it bundled with those services and people are less likely to leave.

Re:Cost and portability

[IndustrialComplex]

I try to explain to him he would be better off just buying a phone directly and not getting locked into a contract but he won't hear it.

Except that he woudln't be better off if he doesn't plan to leave Verizon. Strange as it sounds, a 2 year contract with a company you plan to do business with for >2 years is likely to be a good deal.

Certainly a better deal than buying the phone directly.

Re:Cost and portability

[edmicman]

How do you mean? My HDTV has a DVI-in, and my DVR PC that I built has a video card with DVI-out. It's displaying the native resolution of the TV. There are definitely limitations to the do-it-yourself DVR PC solution, but hooking it up to a TV monitor isn't one of them.

Re:Cost and portability

[IndustrialComplex]

What do you mean by extender?

Stick the storage in a server in your closet.

The extender has just enough hardware to pull the data from the remote storage decode it and output it via HDMI/DVI/Component to your television.

In a way, your non-DVR cable box that you use for On-Demand shows is acting as an extender. The media is stored by the cable company in some place OTHER than you cable box.

Verizon now offers a DVR that uses the other cable boxes as extenders for the primary DVR.

Re:Cost and portability

[iamhassi]

"For me, I never got a Tivo because of the cost.... I believe it is $12.95/month now"

Agreed. Everyone I know is the same way. The monthly fee is what killed Tivo. If they could have lived with $250 for the device they would be far more popular, but no one wants another monthly fee, especially when it's a monthly DVR fee on top of a existing monthly cable fee.

Apple anything = no monthly fees, so they win.

My parents recently called me about buying a TiVo to record the Olympics. Soon as I told them there was a monthly fee they weren't interested, I told them to call their cable provider and see if they offered a DVR for less.

For TiVo to come back they'll have to partner with Hulu and Netflix, give me a set-top box that streams Hulu, Netflix and does DVR and we'll talk. TiVo has the big name, the hardware, the know-how, and the channels to get it into stores. Hulu and Netflix provides great content. I showed my parents Hulu on their PC and they're very interested for the older shows and movies but I don't know of a device cheap and simple enough for them to get Hulu onto their TV.

Re:Cost and portability

[Attila Dimedici]

But I don't want a lifetime subscription. I don't want any subscription. I just want a DVR I can program to record the shows I want to watch.

Re:Cost and portability

[djrosen]

You mean like that smartphone in your pocket?

Re:Cost and portability

[jedidiah]

> Verizon now offers a DVR that uses the other cable boxes as extenders for the primary DVR.

DirecTV is supposed to be testing this sort of idea now as well.

Re:Cost and portability

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure my wife and kids would enjoy sitting in front of a monitor and fiddling with software and a keyboard each time they want to watch a show. Perhaps if geeks made up the bulk of humanity we would all just code our own OS and write our own software and user interface. Since they (geeks) don't make up the bulk of humanity , I guess companies will continue to try and make products that don't force everyone to build "a DVR at home built with leftover parts and a $40 tuner card ".

Re:Cost and portability

[__aamnbm3774]

The services I pay for are more involved than sending a list of TV shows and their start times. (information which you can get for free from a variety of sources)

If I could buy a fully functional mobile phone without paying monthly fees, I'd sign up.

Re:Cost and portability

[powerlord]

Considering that T-Mobile and AT&T are GSM while Verizon is CDMA, "bring your own phone" for a Verizon user isn't that much of an incentive.

(said as a longtime happy T-mobile user)

Re:Cost and portability

[powerlord]

That is exactly the problem I have with it: the monthly fee. It is outrageously high for providing scheduling information. If it was 1/2 the current price, I might be able to justify it. No way at 12.95. The hardware is a bit pricey, but it isn't really the deal breaker for me. I just can't abide that monthly fee.

Then go for the Lifetime Subscription, which removes the hardware/software/updates subsidy and never bothers you for another fee again.

It worked for me 4 years ago and I'ts made me very happy. Heck, I was even able to get rid of Cable 6 months ago, and life has only gotten better.

Picked up a HTPC to handle Internet TV like Hulu/iTunes, while TiVo handles the Over-The-Air TV and Amazon. Between the two of them, I've got more content, with less commercials, at a MUCH lower per month price, but a much higher upfront cost (the break even point, can be 1-2 years depending on what parts of the equations you already have).

Re:Cost and portability

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen brother. I went a little further and got rid of my local satellite a cable provider and went old fashioned roof mounted antenna. Connected the antenna to 3 atsc digital tuners on a HTPC (for recoding 1 or 2 channels while watching another as well as having multiple television sets connected via media extenders) and get 25+ channels in my area for free and I've never looked back.

Re:Cost and portability

[powerlord]

TiVo DOES have a "Lifetime Subscription" option instead of a monthly fee. It breaks even at about 2-3 years.

Also, TiVo has already partnered with both Netflix and Blockbuster on-line.

For Hulu, I've been using a MacMini running http://www.zinc.tv/, but I'm hoping the TiVo announcement at the Top Of the Rock (at the beginning of March), might announce Hulu support.

If they do THAT, on top of everything they are already doing, then I think it would go a huge way toward getting people to buy them.

Heck, with a TiVo and the MacMini, I've ditched cable. Even if I was paying the Monthly fee, instead of the Lifetime Fee, I'd still be saving money buy removing the Cable monthly fee from those I had to pay.

Re:Cost and portability

[h4rr4r]

Just get a cheap pc in a small enough case and have it run the hulu desktop player.

Re:Cost and portability

[Golddess]

I had no idea the hardware required to encode up to two streams at once while decoding a third, all in realtime and at HD resolutions, was so trivial that you could ignore it in your cost guesstimate.

Re:Cost and portability

[__aamnbm3774]

that's ok, i forgive you.

Re:Cost and portability

[man_of_mr_e]

You're forgetting a number of things.

$200 DUAL HD Tuners with CableCard support (something you can't get off the shelf anyways)
$75 built-in hardware MPEG decoding (something you won't get in most cheap motherboards with built-in video although might be built-into a tuner)

The software is not "free", TiVo pays a cost to develop the softwrae and this price is included in both the subscription and the price of the unit. Let's set the price at $75 including lifetime updates.

Suddenly, it's $600

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

Good luck finding a nice looking case the wife will approve of putting under the TV for $60 to put your homebrew DVR into.

Re:Cost and portability

[man_of_mr_e]

You mean you just want to tell it to start recording at a certain time and stop at another time? TiVo does that already.

The problem is, what if they change the airing schedule, and you didn't notice. And to me, i'd much rather say "Record all showings of Firefly, I don't care when they are" rather than dig around in a schedule looking for the times to enter. The former takes about 10 seconds, the latter takes upwards of 5 minutes per program.

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

Then you likely don't want the other features of the Tivo and would be better off with the cable companies DVR. for 4 years you'll be getting a "deal" from them, then at around the 4.5 year mark you've paid enough monthly fees to own a Tivo outright with lifetime subscription.

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

The Tivo server will serve to a Tivo over the network. $30 if I remember correctly.

Re:Cost and portability

[unitron]

Why should it matter?

Because I want to watch television on a television set, not in a tiny "window" on a computer monitor, and I don't want anything on the screen except the television show, and I want to be able to use all of my computer monitor's "real estate" for "computering".

Re:Cost and portability

[Attila Dimedici]

You mean you just want to tell it to start recording at a certain time and stop at another time? TiVo does that already.

The problem is, what if they change the airing schedule, and you didn't notice. And to me, i'd much rather say "Record all showings of Firefly, I don't care when they are" rather than dig around in a schedule looking for the times to enter. The former takes about 10 seconds, the latter takes upwards of 5 minutes per program.

Yes, but my understanding is I have to pay for the subscription to do that other stuff that you say you like better. I don't want to pay for that. I agree that those things are a nice feature, but they aren't worth $5 a month to me (or $400 upfront).
I want to buy a device that lets me tell it to start recording when I want it to and to stop when I want it to, without having to pay for that other stuff.
Now there are people who tell me that if I go hunting I can find such a device. I don't want it that bad. At some point I may decide that I want it enough to go hunting for it, but that hasn't happened yet. I didn't have to go hunting for VCRs, all the major electronic stores carried them.

Re:Cost and portability

[Attila Dimedici]

I don't want to pay the cable companies either. I want to buy a device similar to the one Tivo sells and be done with it.
I believe there are a lot of people out there who would buy a DVR that works the same way that VCRs did.

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

What would the cost end up being for that type of hardware? It would have be hugely undercut the existing services to find a niche. Tivo is ~$250. A lot of people will ignore the monthly fee when they purchase it, so this device needs to be less expensive than that.

The problem is that you can't cut the cost down much. There needs to be a way for the device to change channels for you (To record what you want like a VCR), so some type of interoperability with your current cable box is needed. IR remote plugged into the back of the device and controlling the TV.

Needs to be HDCP compatible (Otherwise you won't get a signal from your cable box).

I just can't see it. I think people who only want what you're looking for there are best off building something basic themselves. There isn't a huge market for dumb DVR's IMO. Of course 640k should be enough for anyone so what do I know?

Re:Cost and portability

[Attila Dimedici]

I would buy a Tivo at $250 if it wasn't for the monthly fee, even if it didn't do the stuff that the monthly fee covers. I think there are a lot of other people out there like me. If so many people ignore the monthly fee when they purchase, why haven't more people bought Tivos?

Re:Cost and portability

[Binestar]

It is a luxury item. a $15/mo payment to the cable company for their DVR is more affordable *now* for the average household than a $900 Tivo purchase that will take 4.5 years to even out vs the rented one. I am not saying otherwise.

Re:Cost and portability

[hazydave]

It actually kind of is. The recording is trivial, since, when you're "recording" HD, you're just recording the MPEG-2 transport stream to HDD, rather than actually creating an MPEG-2 data stream. This is going to a maximum of 19.4Mb/s per channel recorded, which is no big deal given the 30-50MB/s writes a modern HDD can support.. you just need enough buffering to not get killed by seek times. For playback, they're all using MPEG-2 or perhaps MPEG-4 decoder chips, designed for appliances like set-top boxes or Blu-Ray players. That's actually the big computational element, but all in hardware... so playback is only fetching the fairly low bitrate transport streams, anyway.

The only problem a PC had with this is the playback... if you're decoding full 1080/60i or 720/60p HD in MPEG-4, you basically need two CPU cores per stream. Or very good GPU acceleration (I can do a 1080/60p stream on my Q9550 machine with about 12% using a nVidia 8800GT with DVXA 2.0 acceleration.. that goes to about 60% playing back in VLC). But the big win using hardware decode is power. Even with simpler CPUs, like in the PS3, you run up to 250W as a player, versus maybe 25W for a dedicated Blu-Ray device. Obviously, home-made DVR-PCs cover this range, and beyond, depending on how much work you give them.

Re:Cost and portability

[hazydave]

Increasingly, there's no functional difference between "televison" and "computer video display". I'm on my fourth television with VGA inputs. Just about any TV these days supports HDMI input... HDMI is a superset of DVI-D... so pretty much any digital TV can display HD computer video. Going the other way, many of the new cheap LCD monitors are made using panels originally designed for TVs (hint: the computer standard is 16:10, the video standard is 16:9... all those cheap 1920x1080 monitors are really using TV panels).

And really, what's the difference once you're digital... is there anything particularly different when the TiVo makes an HD image using a DVB-HD SOC, rather than your TV doing it with an ATSC SOC, your PS3 making it with its dedicated graphics chip, or your PC doing it with nVidia or AMD/ATi graphics? A video signal is a video signal, there days.

I have monitors here, from the new Westinghouse company. They're on 16:10, 1920x1200 MVA panels, so very computer-industry. No turner, either. But they support HDMI rather than DVI, including audio over HDMI, so you can use these for stand-alone video playback. Plus, they support VGA, YPrPb, S/V and CVBS analog inputs... so you can connect up practically any video device made in the last 50 years and get an upconverted picture.

One of my kids has a 28" LCD TV, but it does a full 1080p image, and looks great as a computer monitor. And in fact, the same company (Hann) makes the identical screen in the same plastic, without the tuner and with a DVI input, and sells it as a monitor.

The "monitor vs. TV" thing is really not much of a question anymore. You probably find that for TV use, there's at least a mode (on an LCD display) for dynamic contrast (native LCD contrast is usually 1000:1 or so, CRT-based TVs offer at least 10,000:1)... for computer use, there's a mode that guarantees 1:1 pixel mapping, not always the default on a TV, even a digital one.

Re:Cost and portability

[debus]

The lifetime might work if it was my lifetime and not the lifetime of the device. I believe you have to pay again if you upgrade your tivo device.

Monthly Fee

[JD-1027]

I never bought one because of the monthly fee. I would buy one immediately if there was no monthly fee. I assume there is still a monthly fee, correct?

There is absolutely no reason to have a monthly fee on this piece of hardware. I understand there is a minor "service" they provide in getting schedules and being able to set up recording through an internet page, but in no way does that constitute the size of the monthly fee I remember seeing.

Also, I believe the device stopped working after you stopped paying the monthly fee. What? Why can't it work like an old-school VCR at that point where you have to manually program when it should record?

Please correct me if my history is off, or things have changed. I'd take a serious look at a TiVo if things are now different.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a monthly fee, and you MUST connect it to the internet - if it hasn't been connected to the internet in the past 30 days, it will stop recording stuff - because it can't check to see that you've paid your fee.

It also forces you to view ads - on the tivo menus and stuff. Infuriating.

Wish I could return the goddamn thing.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Binestar]

You can get lifetime subscription (The box, not you) for $400, so tack that $400 onto the price of the Tivo and see if it is worth it. As a previous Tivo owner I was given $100 off a new Tivo and as a previous lifetime subscriber I was given $100 off the lifetime sub. Even with that deal it was $700 for my Tivo HD XL. A purchase that to me at least is well well worth it.

As for the monthly fee for the cable card, I was being charged more to rent an HD box from Time Warner, so my cable price went down slightly. I was also able to sell my lifetime sub Series 2 (Which I had upgraded to the maximum of 2x127GB when drives failed) for $200.

Re:Monthly Fee

[TheRaven64]

They used to offer a lifetime subscription, but it was very expensive. I considered getting a TiVo when they were new, but at the time I was paying £5/year to a service that provided TV listing and a nice app for setting alarms and filtering them. It also had a scripting interface, so instead I just popped an ATi All-in-Wonder card into a machine and wrote a (trivial) script to make it record things from the TV card. You could set it to record all programs with a given name, or matching other conditions (there was a nice UI in the TV guide app for doing this) for £5/year + a load of spare hardware I had lying around. It could also do pausing live TV, just like a TiVo.

The TiVo advantage back then was convenience, but they never came close to competing on price. If they had charged £5/year or similar for their TV guide service, I might have been tempted as they did give a much more polished product.

Now, I'm not really sure I see the point of such a device. I haven't owned a TV for a few years. I still watch TV shows, but now they're delivered via iPlayer or rented on DVD. TiVo seems to be solving the wrong problem. The problem is not that I want to record broadcast TV and play it back later, it is that I want to watch shows on my own schedule, without adverts. Recording from broadcast TV is one solution to this problem, but it's not a good one. It was the only one that was technically feasible a decade ago, but now I have enough spare bandwidth that I can still do other stuff while streaming 720p shows. What's TiVo's reason for existing in this market?

Re:Monthly Fee

[natehoy]

I bought a ReplayTV (competitor to TiVo, same basic idea) about 6 years ago, and paid $200 for the "lifetime service". Like TiVO, with a ReplayTV, once the listings stop being fed to the machine it cannot record anything - you can't just do time/day based recording. The monthly service was something like $15, so I figured I might as well "prepay" for 14 months of service and get lifetime service that way.

The overall machine cost $400 with the lifetime service, and 6 years and counting and the machine is working just fine. And I could easily resell it and include the lifetime service with it if I ever decide I don't need it any more.

Somehow, ReplayTV is continuing to offer channel updates, even though I'm not sure you could buy a new one today if you wanted to. They have been absorbed by DirectTV, so I'm sure that's the technology inside DirectTV's DVR units.

I don't know if TiVo has a lifetime prepay option, but it might be worth it.

Re:Monthly Fee

[langelgjm]

if it hasn't been connected to the internet in the past 30 days, it will stop recording stuff - because it can't check to see that you've paid your fee.

I'm guessing it's that, and it will also have run out of guide data so it won't know when shows are on, etc. It's not like it magically gets guide data from the ether. (Actually there is something called EIT, but I think it's only for OTA programs and it's usually crappy data anyway).

Guide data isn't free. It probably should be if you have a cable service, but it's not. Even MythTV users (in the US) have to pay for it, albeit for the price of $20/yr. It used to be free, but the company giving it away decide to stop a few years ago.

It also forces you to view ads - on the tivo menus and stuff. Infuriating.

Yeah, this kind of nonsense is the reason I'll probably never put up with a consumer-grade DVR. MythTV is not exactly easy to set up, but you purchase freedom at the price of ease of use, I suppose.

Re:Monthly Fee

[mcgrew]

Also, I believe the device stopped working after you stopped paying the monthly fee. What? Why can't it work like an old-school VCR at that point where you have to manually program when it should record?

Because the people making them are greedy bastards. The corporate world wants a monthly fee for everything these days, even when they provide no services. You're far better off building a Myth TV.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Binestar]

They offer lifetime again for $400. Equal to just over 2 years of cable DVR service.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Attila Dimedici]

I never bought one because of the monthly fee. I would buy one immediately if there was no monthly fee.

My thoughts exactly. I kept waiting for someone to sell a DVR that I could hook up to my cable and record what and when I decided to record without having to pay a monthly fee for it to record things according to when they are scheduled. That's all I want, a DVR that works the way that VCRs work. I tell it what channel and what time to record and it does so. I can understand that there is a market for the service, I'm not it. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me, if they could just buy a DVR that works like a VCR they would. Yes, DVR's with service are growing steadily, but that is largely because that is the only way I know of to buy one.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

I have two TiVO units. One was given to me with a lifetime subscription already attached to it, the other I paid for the lifetime subscription. At the time, I think the subscription was $300 and equivalent to approximately 2.5 years worth of service. I've had them for over 5 years now so it was money well used.

Re:Monthly Fee

[slim]

Also, I believe the device stopped working after you stopped paying the monthly fee. What? Why can't it work like an old-school VCR at that point where you have to manually program when it should record?

You can do exactly that.

I prefer to pay for the EPG data, so I don't have to look up times, and I get recommendations, season passes etc.

Re:Monthly Fee

[biryokumaru]

As I'm certain you've seen elsewhere, MythTV should meet your needs.

Re:Monthly Fee

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I have two such machines. Panasonic, its DVD writer broke. Bought a Phillips. That too can do time/date based recording. It is a pain in the neck to program, and the user interface sucks. But I have been using it for the last 4 years. Panasonic makes it very easy to mark "chapters" as you are watching. I mark interesting jokes from Jay Leno, Jon Stewart, Colbert. I also record the disaster shows and such from Discovery/History channel, mark all the ads and delete them. Then I burn them into DVDs. I have something like 30 hours of distilled Jay Leno, just the good jokes, Headlines, JayWalking etc.

Never paid a monthly fee. When the DVD writer broke I was astounded to see the same model selling at 1800$ in Ebay. I bought mine for some 450$. The only piece of electronic equipment that went up in value in three years. Market is sending strong signals. The greedy cable cos are not listening.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Comboman]

They're around, you just have to look for them. I bought an 80GB Pioneer DVR a couple of years ago and it works great for me. Programming it is a little VCR-like, but there's no monthly fee like with TiVo or cable company boxes, and no complicated schedule "scraping" and noisy PC in the living room like with MythTV or Boxee. And it's also a decent upconverting DVD player.

Re:Monthly Fee

[RailRide]

I found one item that fits the "DVR that works like a VCR" description--I needed a solution to the problem of DVD recorders that die after a year or two of service. The biggest problem is it's a discontinued item and it doesn't do high-def (I'm not on the HD bandwagon yet, and all of the old VCR recordings I want to convert are SD, so yeah). It's the Archos TV+, and although it did at one time offer a subscription-based tv guide function (now defunct, if I recall corectly), it will happily function like a typical VCR without it, down to in-person recording or VCR-style programming. Oh, it also does MP3 and photos.

On top of that, it can be hooked to your home network, and has USB ports for connecting mass-storage devices to view, transfer or backup recordings. Although I haven't tried it, it's also supposed to let you perform rudimentary edits (like removing commercials) on your recordings, either overwriting the original, or generating a new file.

Although it isn't advertised as such, it will play Flash Video files, although like the Archos 5-series PMP's it's based on, I think it's limited to those with Sorensen/H.263 compression. I haven't tried it with H.264 FLVs, despite the format list on its Wikipedia entry saying so (which I feel is suspect).

Too bad Archos didn't hype the device's ability to function without a subscription, there may have been enough interest in it to warrant a HD version.

---PCJ

Re:Monthly Fee

[2obvious4u]

When I bought my Tivo it came with a lifetime subscription built in. I think they still do that, so instead of $12 a month you pay them an extra $100 up front. Seemed like a no brainer.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Attila Dimedici]

As I'm certain you've seen elsewhere, MythTV should meet your needs.

Really, where can I buy one off the shelf ready to go?
Actually, I am considering building a MythTV box. I just haven't gotten around to it.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a mix of these sorts of thing. Media center (built into every vista and windows 7 boxs home prem and up) can do what you like and it is free. But then you have to fiddle with hooking your computer up to both the TV (either thru some sort of extender, xbox360, or other, or direct). Then make sure you get a tuner that can handle it. Was easy a few years ago before 'digital cable'. Now there is like 1 or 2 pci card out there that can do the cable card thing. I even got a radio card and was able to time shift with that. Start recording radio wait an hour sit down and listen to music skip 15 mins of commercials.

The linux way is usually mythtv. The listings used to be free but the provider that provided the listings was taking a bath and had to start charging for it. You have the same fiddley thing with hooking to your tv again. Its not too bad if you get the right vid card. The downside to myth is you really need to be careful which pvr card you get. There are forums out there that guide you thru it. I ended up with one once that only worked with MC. Pain...

For simple record and watch later I liked MC over Myth. But for flexibility of addons I realllllly liked Myth.

Both of them will also act like the old VCR. Chanel X at time a thru b.

If you are just going to do VCR way buy a card that works with linux and give media center a try too.

I even set it so my computer would just hibernate most of the time and resume just at the right time to record the show then go back to sleep.

Most of them also have plugins to the various tv sites out there Hulu, abc, cbs, nbc, etc...

OH also get a dual channel tuner. You wont regret it. You record on one while watching something else. The single tuner cards can be a bit of a pain but workable.

XBMC is also another good choice these days. But I havent fiddled with that one much yet.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Rolgar]

You can buy non-TIVO devices (like the Philips DVDR3576H (DVD Recorder/DVR) I'm considering buying to replace a similar Toshiba device I already own) that do exactly that. I've heard people rave about TIVO, but I'd rather have a machine like the above that doesn't need to be on the Internet, that can't be changed or controlled by the manufacturer without my consent. They probably will never do it, but I'd just as soon have the peace of mind of knowing that they can't touch my device.

Re:Monthly Fee

[SatanicPuppy]

Most cable companies offer a "free" dvr with a monthly fee that is comparable to TiVos, so if you were willing to pay the fee, you might as well just get the dvr from your cable company and save yourself the cash for the new hardware.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Miamicanes]

> You can do exactly that.

> I prefer to pay for the EPG data, so I don't have to look up times, and I get recommendations, season passes etc.

I think part of the confusion here is due to TiVo's different policies in the UK and America. A UK TiVo (purchased ~4-5 years ago) can be used without a monthly subscription to pause live TV, and I think it can be used like a regular VCR. HOWEVER, that's ONLY because TiVo decided to abandon the UK market & discontinue their subscription service there, and would have been sued or prosecuted had they done otherwise.

An American TiVo without a subscription (with the POSSIBLE exception of the oldest of old first-generation boxen) is a doorstop.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Rolgar]

Search for DVD Recorders with a Hard Drive. I responded to the parent mentioning a Philips unit I'm interested in with upscaling so I'd be able to watch DVDs and recorded materials on a high definition TV in the future. A buddy asked my opinion, and I recommended that or another unit I'd found that was region free with upscaling that I though he might be interested in because his girlfriend is from China. Pioneer or Samsung make such a device.

Re:Monthly Fee

[TheRaven64]

Seriously? $400? And that's just for providing metadata? I don't have cable, but at the current exchange rate that buys me a bit over two years of DVD rentals (two at home at once, as many as I can watch in a month, delivered to my door, with a load of titles available for streaming as part of the subscription).

Their monthly service, at $12.99 is only marginally less for metadata than I pay for content. I just checked, and the prices are similar in the USA. For $1/month more, you get a Netflix subscription that lets you stream content and have 2 DVDs at home at once. How on earth do TiVo think that their subscription is worth that much?

Re:Monthly Fee

[slim]

TiVo decided to abandon the UK market & discontinue their subscription service there

This isn't true. I still pay TiVo UK a monthly sub, and continue to get listing data in exchange.
I sometimes wonder how many people are employed in whatever's left of the UK TiVo organisation. Last time I tried their helpline (trying to get remote control codes for a new STB), they answered.

I don't think there was ever a time when a UK TiVo couldn't be asked to record by date/time. It's just that nobody with a subscription would ever do that.

I suppose I have to take your word that a US TiVo becomes a doorstop. If true, it's a pretty nasty decision.

Re:Monthly Fee

[b0bby]

Yep the fee is the problem for me too. They want to charge more for guide data than Netflix does to mail me DVDs & stream me all the movies I can watch. It's crazy. I'd buy one for OTA recording if they'd sell it without a subscription, but they won't so I'll get a Revo & a USB tuner card instead as soon as my Dish contract expires. I'll be happy to be done with their crappy DVR; the DirecTivo I had before was really great.

Re:Monthly Fee

[wings]

Heh... I was an early Tivo adopter with what's now referred to as a Series 1 machine, it only came with 20Gb of storage.
This was back when you could get lifetime subscriptions for a flat $250 fee.
I bought it around 2000-2001, so it's close to 10 years old.
When I signed up for the lifetime guide option, ISTR subscriptions were $8/mo.
I figured I'd get my money's worth on the subscription if it lasted 3 years.
The Tivo is still running, on it's 3rd set of hard disks, and I still get guide updates without the monthly fee.

I only get basic cable, and it's still available in analog format.
I don't know which will last longer. Analog cable, or the Tivo.
Whichever one goes first will effectively make my Tivo useless, but I won't be too disappointed.
I believe I got my money's worth.

I also have an extensive MythTV setup with 2 analog and 3 digital tuners, with one dedicated for OTA.
It's not like I won't have anything to watch when the Tivo becomes useless.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

The device does not stop working if you cancel the scheduling service. If I use the DVR comcast provides to me I pay a $10.95 monthly "rental fee". At least with my TiVo HD I get the benefit of a much better user interface, Netflix On Demand, Amazon On Demand, Blockbuster On Demand, YouTube, and I can stream my own content from a server running pyTiVo.

Re:Monthly Fee

[djrosen]

I dont see this whole monthly fee thing as an issue. DTV wanted to charge me $200 for their HD DVR PLUS (been a customer for over 10 years) another $10 per month for HD COntent PLUS I LEASE the receiver for another $5 PLUS $5 month 'warranty' or if it breaks, I buy a new one or go without. How is this any different thatn a Bring your own access Tivo?

Now, I talked them into giving me the DVR for nothing but I still pay $15 a month to use it. TiVo is less than that and you can get lifetime service and you can replace the HD when it dies with one off the shelf.

Re:Monthly Fee

[darkwing_bmf]

Every time someone links a "software solution" when asked about recording TV it makes me wonder if they have any common sense. It's like linking the circuit diagram for a toaster when someone says they want a small inexpensive machine to make toast.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Dun Malg]

They have been absorbed by DirectTV, so I'm sure that's the technology inside DirectTV's DVR units.

I wish! A friend of mine had a ReplayTV, and I can tell you that the software in my DirecTV DVR is definitely not anywhere near that good. No, DirecTV only picked up ReplayTV a couple years ago, and the DirecTV DVR software goes much farther back. When Rupert Murdoch bought DirecTV from GM/Hughes in 2003, he told TiVo to go piss up a rope, that he would have his marvelous geniuses at NDS make a DVR platform from scratch for him. What we got is one of the worst piles of crap I've ever seen.

Re:Monthly Fee

[biryokumaru]

But it's so much easier to cobble together your own toaster from spare parts!

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo's with a dvd player included a free 3 day subscription to the service. You could pay to get the 14 day service that other models used, but most didn't. I know I didn't.

Re:Monthly Fee

[dzfoo]

I don't know... to me a "no brainer" is not to pay for the extraneous subscription to an unnecessary service. But that's just me.

      -dZ.

Re:Monthly Fee

[dzfoo]

Guide data isn't free. It probably should be if you have a cable service, but it's not. Even MythTV users (in the US) have to pay for it, albeit for the price of $20/yr. It used to be free, but the company giving it away decide to stop a few years ago.

That's fine if you want the guide data. But what the parent poster (and others) have been arguing is that it appears that using this guide data is required for the machine to function--as opposed to a VCR, where there is no such data, and you just tell it the channel and time you want to record (or just start recording on-demand).

Some of us do not see much value in paying for the guide data service. I respect those that do see value in it, though.

        -dZ.

Re:Monthly Fee

[Binestar]

One time fee for $400. Your cable DVR subscription is ongoing. Takes 2.5 years to even out. Do you plan on having your DVR for longer than that?

Re:Monthly Fee

[ChrisMaple]

For DirecTivo, it is technically possible (I don't know if they do it) to tell if you've paid by transmitting all the CableCard numbers that are paid-up (encrypted and compressed, of course). Each unit knows its own identity, and if it isn't on the list, it can decide to stop working. This could be done once every half hour for less bandwidth than an audio channel.

Re:Monthly Fee

[RJFerret]

Exactly, I never understood why people paid for Tivo when you could simply buy any of the competitors' boxes with no subscription cost. Almost a decade ago now I got my Toshiba, and it not only is a PVR, but also can edit and record DVDs. What's more it can automatically put chapter breaks at commercials, so you can skip them with one button.

The best feature though? Being able to watch something at double speed with clear audio. You can watch an "hour" show in 22 minutes. Double-speed is great for sports too.

However now it's kind of a moot point as there's Hulu, now I don't even need to think about recording or program diddly-squat, I get emailed when it's ready! The only issue is nobody streams to watch at double speed yet (although players like VLC can play at 1.5x and 2x speed with clear enough audio, as well as slow-mo, you have to download the por...erm, show first).

-Randy

Re:Monthly Fee

[Anonymous Coward]

Most cable companies offer a "free" dvr with a monthly fee that is comparable to TiVos, so if you were willing to pay the fee, you might as well just get the dvr from your cable company and save yourself the cash for the new hardware.

Only if your standards are really really REALLY low for the term "comparable".

I have a standard HD PVR (through Cablevision).

The software for recording shows simply sucks donkey privates. Nothing out there comes close to TIVO's more intelligent system where it automatically de-conflicts (records one show at a later time) and is decent about recording things you might be interested in.

None of the cable/phone company's PVRs that I've seen have good software. They do the absolute minimum to be called a DVR/PVR.

Lousy marketing?

[petes_PoV]

The world of gadgets is full of technically superior products that failed. Tivo's just another example. Some had a good idea and bad implementation. Others had poor reliability or couldn't deliver product to the customer. From where I see it, Tivo's just another DVR (though to be fair, I've never actually seen a tivo in the flesh - maybe that says' something about their reach outside the world of geeky-dom) and has to complete with all the new products that are better / faster / cheaper / prettier.

File away with 8-track, betamax and video disks

Re:Lousy marketing?

[SQLGuru]

I had DirecTiVo for a while (DirecTV and TiVo had a joint product) and now I have Dish Network's product. Comparing the two, TiVo is really the much better DVR software. They have features that the others don't (and can't until patents expire in probably 10 more years). One of the ones that I miss is the Suggestions (aka keep my harddrive full) that will record shows during "down" time that match types and styles of shows you already record -- it's great when your normal shows aren't recording because of special events like The Winter Olympics. I never had an issue with shows recording multiple times (only record new, but the satellite picks up locals and shows them on 3 feeds [HD, local channel number, and 8000 channel number] so the DVR records the new episode on all three feeds because it's my highest ranked show). The TiVo interface is easier and better with groupings of shows into folders instead of just a list of everything recorded. All-in-all, the TiVo *IS* the best DVR available.

Other than DirecTiVo, there hasn't really been a single device that allowed you to have satellite and TiVo at the same time. Sure, the newer TiVo's have cablecard support, but it's not easy to get cablecards. The TiVo trying to operate the other box isn't the greatest solution either. Especially when your DVR is capable of recording multiple feeds (mine will record two satellite feeds plus OTA digital). The early TiVo's with analog cable were an easy implementation, but now that cable has gone digital, it's harder to have a TiVo.....but you wind up paying extra for the priviledge and in today's economy, the DVR from the provider is "good enough" that the TiVo becomes and expense that you live without. It's better, but is it "better enough" to justify the extra expense?

Re:Lousy marketing?

[mcgrew]

File away with 8-track, betamax and video disks

Eight tracks don't belong in your list. They were in everybody's cars (except mine, I used cassettes) and most houses for over ten years. And they weren't technically superior, even though they had twice the transport speed of cassette. They had to switch tracks four times per album, and often this would have songs cut off in the middle. The tapes were bulky and unwieldy, and if a tape got "eaten" it was harder to repair than a casette.

People finally realized that they were inferior and they were superceded by cassettes, which were originally developed for dictation. You can file eight tracks with 78 rpm shellack records, black and white CRT TVs, automotive carburators, and steam locomotives, not Betamax or video disks.

They were included in a humorous K5 article I wrote back in 2005, Good Riddance to Bad Tech (which is a bit out of date; today's shoelaces are superior, and they've brought back volume knobs in car radios).

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Binestar]

I'm not sure there is any DVR that is better than a Tivo. I say this as someone who has used MythTV, Tivo, and 3 different cable company's DVRs. When it comes right down to it, anyone can use Tivo. The cable company DVR's are not smart enough, MythTV (admittedly a long ass time ago) was hard to use and difficult to setup.

As for faster, a Series 2 Tivo that is upgraded and starts to have a lot of things on the drive can be a bit slot responding to the remote. This is no longer true with my series 3 HD XL. The speed is great no matter if the drive has 300 items recorded.

Cheaper: yes and no. the $700 price tag I paid for my upgrade ($900 for someone without a previous Tivo to get a discount) is the top of the line Tivo with lifetime service. My last Tivo was $300 and $250 for the lifetime subscription (Yes, I got it that long ago). It is still going strong at my brothers house (I sold it to him for $200 to help me pay for my new Tivo). Even ignoring the $200 I got from selling it, I got it August of 2002. 90 months divided by $550 = $6/month. Well under the Cable company price for a DVR. I did upgrade the hard drive in the Tivo with 2 160GB drives part way through it's life. Both were taken out of service from PC upgrades, but figure an average hard drive price of $100 that gets you up to $750, or $8.33/month. I unfortunately do not know how they fare against each other in power usage, so I honestly can't add in the possible differences between those.

In order for my new $700 Tivo to be more economical than the cable company offering (And assuming I will be tossing a 2GB external drive on it to expand it Figure $100 for the drive, $30 for the enclosure I already have that I plan on using and that makes it $830. 55 months to be same price as the cable DVR. Just over 4 and a half years.

It is a gamble that it will last that long, but if I win that gamble it is just savings at that point.

As for looks, I've not seen a DVR interface that is prettier than Tivo. Would love for someone to show me. It really *IS* as good as Tivo fans make it out to be.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[jedidiah]

> It really *IS* as good as Tivo fans make it out to be.

While DIY products have the problem that you have to build your own box,
it is not true that a Tivo is any more user friendly in actual use. Nor
is it true that it has any better "curb appeal". Once my own "end users"
had adapted to MythTV they found Tivo to be crude and ugly and didn't ever
want to see it again.

I am sure MCE and Sage users have their own anecdotes along these lines.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[colenski]

I would say that Tivo's biggest asset is the name. The name has fallen into common vernacular: People say "I'm going to Tivo Lost tonight*" - and in fact that line is often written into TV scripts. It remains to be seen whether that brand will remain in people's mind *cough* Napster *cough*.

*Disclaimer: I am old, so I say "I am going to TAPE Lost tonight" when I mean I am going to record something to my PVR.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[ckaminski]

As an aside and off-topic, when exactly did K5 stop being a living breathing organism? It used to be in my top 3 visit-in-the-morning at all costs sites, but then around '06 it stopped. Slashdot is still the only site I visit nearly every day I'm at a computer, and has been since I signed up.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Gr8Apes]

I had Dish for a long time. I still like their implementation. I tried Tivo (admittedly for a relatively short period) and currently have AT&Ts horrid u-Verse box that's about to be tossed out the door. I've also had TW's box that I would barely call beta.

The thing I like least about the u-Verse and Tivo boxes are the auto recording features, especially when they bump the "older" recordings I actually cared about (Yes you can "lock" it on some systems). I personally dislike technology that thinks it's smarter than me and knows what I want despite me telling it otherwise.

The features that I want are decent search, and the ability to quickly set a recording with enough lead and follow time to cover the whole thing. A bonus would be if there was a methodology from the broadcaster to indicate delays, and maybe they'd be kind enough to definitively indicate commercials as well (Yes, I'm aware of the blank frame signal :)

Re:Lousy marketing?

[mcgrew]

I don't know; I left after several encounters with a particularly assholish admin; at one point he banned me for "crapflooding", even though four of the five "crap" stories were voted up, two to the front page. That was the beginning of the end for me, even though Rusty reinstated my account with an apology and said I was the only one ever to get banned for having four stories posted in an hour. I left shortly after posting "Growing Up with Computers", so it's been several years since I've been there. I would guess that the editor I had problems with had a great deal to do with its demise.

Most of the best posters moved on to a site called... hell, I don't remember what it was called, but it had something to do with cows, I think.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Dun Malg]

K5 fell victim to the same sort of childish "I am clearly smarter than you even though I'm only 19" user base that kills most "intellectual" sites. The interesting people leave, and you have a bunch of dull folks talking about uninteresting stuff. I've largely quit reading Slashdot for the same reason. At least Slashdot has the odd interesting tech article. K5, not so much. What's on top there right now? NFL tax evasion, someone's trip to Cuba, and a critique of Obama's trip to china. Meh. Tech articles? Something on sed, gawk, and grep, something else on NetBSDs release schedule, someone rambling about how if Firefox isn't good in the future people will stop using it.... it's just boring.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[religious freak]

I agree. Who sells the iPod? Steve Jobs ... Who sells Windows? Bill Gates ... Who sells Geico car insurance? The Gecko

You don't necessarily need a person to sell stuff, but you do need SOME kind of marketing push, even for the most revolutionary of products. People have cited cost here, but iPods aren't cheap, neither is Windows or Geico car insurance... but they've got good marketing.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[religious freak]

hmm, should've put 'nor' instead of 'or'. Sorry to the grammar nazis out there. Hmm... kinda a crappy sentence overall, actually. Eh, whatev

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, Tivo has the best interface. It is very much like comparing iPod to other MP3 players or iPhone to many lesser smartphones. Some of the competitors have enough to satisfy a lot of users, but Tivo really stands out for ease of use, features, and UI design. Those things certainly don't matter to everyone, but for me they really create a totally different experience which I'm willing to pay for.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[imaque]

90 months divided by $550 = $6/month.

Wouldn't that actually be 0.1636 months/dollar?

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Binestar]

You must get all the girls.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[imaque]

What are these girls of which you speak? Are they a certain kind of slashdot mod point?

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason my parents don't have TiVo (my dad won a free box and a month of free service) is specifically because of the "Suggestions" feature. It kept recording Pokemon and Yu-gi-O daily for my mom which really miffed her because neither she or my dad EVER records/watches cartoons of any flavor. (Us kids were out of the house by then, so it wasn't us either!)

I don't have a DVR period because I don't want to pay a monthly fee when I have a perfectly good VCR that I know how to program just fine. The only thing that TiVo would be more useful for me would be when networks switched show times. But if not missing my shows was that important to me, I suppose I could just check listings too....

Re:Lousy marketing?

[ArcCoyote]

Sorry, Tivo loses because if you want to go cheap and don't care about features, you can rent a CableCo DVR for the same you'd pay Tivo every month.
If you do want the kitchen sink, you can build an HTPC for the same investment and you don't have to pay out every month.

For about $750 I can spec a nice little Dell Zino: HDMI on-board, Dual-Core, 4GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, Blu-Ray+DVDRW, Win 7 Home Premium.
Add an ATI DCT CableCARD Tuner for about $250... or if I wait a while Silicondust with have their dual-tuner CableCARD box out for about the same price.

So, I'm at $1000 for a DVR, BD Player, and everything else an HTPC can do (Hulu,Netflix,Bittorrent..)
It's digital cable ready, there are no monthly guide fees, and IMHO Windows Media Center is a LOT nicer than Tivo.

Or, you can just add a CableCARD tuner to any Win 7 PC, and stick an Xbox 360 on your TV as an extender. That's ~$500 and takes advantage of any storage you might already have... and the CableCARD tuner just works for me. I get everything channel I pay for in HD, and so far I've seen no DRM at all: I can commercial-scan and transcode everything it records.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Binestar]

Cheaper to rent for first 4.5 years, then just gets more and more expensive. Don't know about you but I plan on having a TV still in 4.5 years.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[ArcCoyote]

4.5 years? That's an entire lifespan for a piece of technology these days.
I plan on having a TV, but maybe not the same TV, and who knows what formats or connections I'll want the DVR to support...

There's a good chance the disk in a Cableco DVR will die or develop bad blocks in 4.5 years. It's almost guaranteed to happen: That thing was slowly roasting in someone's dusty TV stand before you got it. Which is a good thing, because it means you'll get to trade your box in for a newer model with a better UI and maybe even a SATA port so you can add your own storage.

I know more than one Tivo owner who has suffered a disk failure. Of course I've also had disk failures in PCs, but it's easy to fix in a PC, and everything important gets backed up... not so much with a Tivo.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[Binestar]

My series 2 lasted 7 years of non-stop use for me, and is currently working at my brother's house since this last christmas. I upgraded because I wanted HD and multiple channel recording. As for disk failures, if you think it is easy to fix a PC then you can very likely fix a Tivo. If backing up your recordings is important you can do so to your PC (automatically too BTW). My series 2 had multiple disk failures. First one was 3 years in I was able to copy the data off it using the "freeze the drive" method and put in a 160GB drive. Shortly there after I upgraded with another 80GB drive I had sitting around. A couple years after that the 80GB started giving me problems, so I yanked it, copied the data to another 160 and it has been working fine since.

The series 3 has the same capabilities. If the drive goes I am confident I can replace it.

The Tivo HD XL supports any external USB 2.0 drive you want to install, so adding storage is a non-issue.

Better UI? I have yet to see a DVR with a better UI than Tivo.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[petsounds]

I've had my beloved DirecTiVo since 2002. Sadly, it finally kicked the bucket last night. About a month ago it started having problems connecting, would forget to record shows, then one of the sat inputs stopped working, and then finally just wouldn't boot anymore. The saddest part to this story is, TiVo has no replacement unit waiting for me after all this time. I'd love to have an HD TiVo that works with DirecTV, but it's still not out (been in dev over two years). So now I can't even watch TV since it was also my DirecTV tuner.. I don't know whether to wait, or switch to DISH (since I'm not going to get into the DirecTV scam of "leasing" their DVR for $250 and then paying a "lease charge" every month on top of that). It's a real business failure. It's always disappointing to see a company with so much potential squander it or succumb to market forces.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[SQLGuru]

eBay and Craigslist usually have some but it's a pain to get DirecTV to enable the boxes (but if you escalate enough, you can eventually get them on your account). I traded my two boxes to a friend (who had two that were dying) for the laptop I'm currently using. He's already upgraded to TiVo boxes w/ cablecard, but I'm pretty sure the boxes he had are traded on to other people.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[danielsfca2]

(only record new, but the satellite picks up locals and shows them on 3 feeds [HD, local channel number, and 8000 channel number] so the DVR records the new episode on all three feeds because it's my highest ranked show).

You're doing it wrong on the Dish box. I think you made a Dish Pass when what you want is a plain vanilla recording. Dish pass searches on every channel--it may be good for catching the next time your favorite movie comes on, or if you gotta have every "Cops" that's aired in syndication, but a normal recording is always the tool for recording first-run shows because a normal recording only does the channel you put it on. Since you know new episodes of Big Bang Theory will always be on CBS, you just find it in the guide on your HD CBS channel, press "Record," hit "new episodes," and you're done. You'll get only new episodes that air on that specific channel.

Also cool is the timeslot feature. That is another choice in the standard recording creator, where it records that show *if and only if* it is on in that same timeslot. If it's preempted nothing is recorded. If they air episodes at 5, 6, and 10, you'll only get the timeslot you intended.

Also the Dish thing does group by show name, it's one of the options to the right of the list. Let me know if you can't find it and i'll go see what it's called. It also lets you sort either by most recently recorded or alpha.

The biggest annoyance I have with Dish DVR is that they don't strip off "The" from the beginning of shows when alphabetizing. So i have a huge "The" section down near the end of the alpha list. Aside from that it's awesome. and now the web scheduling is out of beta so i can log in and edit scheduled recording, delete shows etc. from anywhere.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[sciencewhiz]

TiVo doesn't delete your recordings to make room for suggestions.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[greg1104]

I inherited a Series 1 Tivo from a friend after its drive died and he was going to throw it away. Borrowed a similar unit from anoter friend, copied the drive using standard Linux tools, expanded to the new larger drive size; better than new, 80 hours instead of 30. Besides that failure, the Tivo worked from 2000 to 2009, and it's only retired now because it won't talk to any of the set top boxes I'd like it to anymore--and it won't tune over the air since the digital transition last year. Could fix the STB compatibility issue if I wanted to hack on it, just been too busy.

Several of my non-technical family members have Tivos and happily navigate the UI with only modest training. I write software for a living and I can barely make the Cabelco DVRs I've come across work like they're supposed to.

Re:Lousy marketing?

[hazydave]

Well, part of the problem is that these systems all started out, ten or so years ago, as "clones" of TiVo... or at least efforts to replicate what TiVo did well. Microsoft did likewise with their Media Center shell. And the big problem they all had, and some still have, is stability. You still you're you're using a PC, not an appliance. Most of us here don't find that to be a huge problem, but the average TV viewer doesn't want or need PC-like issues to get the way of their TV viewing.

No crashing, no missing shows (in ten years, the only time my TiVo misses a recording, other than during power outs, was when the IR blaster wasn't seen by the STB correctly -- a problem with the STB, really.. other STBs allow serial connections that never fail this way). If I yank the plug on a DVR, I can't have a 5 minute startup while the device CHKDSKs or fscks... it has to be ready, immediately. It has to run quiet and cool... no heating up in an enclosed cabinet (the PS3 fails this, but it doesn't have to remain on).

And of course, regular consumer guy has to have a way to buy it, as an appliance. Sure, I could set these up for people easily enough, but at some point, you really find you're already doing enough free IT work for friends and family on their computer systems... you don't want to ask for more of that if you can help it. I have yet to see any of these systems work as reliable as I'd need for a consumer product.

No Tivo for me

[JustNiz]

>> I wanted to find out why TiVo hasn't been more successful

I'm very happy with my Mythtv box. It does way more than a Tivo does, I can customise it, and it has no monthly fees. (Although I do subscribe to Schedules Direct for listings, but that's only $20 per year ).

Re:No Tivo for me

[DougWebb]

I loved my MythTV box too, but switched to TiVo when Comcast started moving digital channels around so often that the listings were always coming out wrong, and when it became clear that the analog channels were going away. At least TiVo with cablecards can follow the changes. Comcast still made it very difficult to get the cards; when I called for an installation they said I had to go to my local office to pick it up, and when I went to my local office they looked at me like I had two heads and said they've never dealt with cablecards. Once I finally got a technician to come and install the cards everything was cool, and I've been very happy with my TiVo ever since.

I went for the top of the line model, with the 'lifetime' subscription. I figured that the lifetime subscription is cheaper than the other options after four years, and the box (which the subscription is attached to) should last me that long before it's completely obsolete.

Re:No Tivo for me

[itsdapead]

I love MythTV but, lets be honest, setting it up was a week's worth of intensive nerding...

While its quite friendly in day-to-day use and has really cool features (e.g. MythWeb, multiple front ends...) it all goes a bit pear shaped when it comes to configuration.

Tuning, in particular is a major hassle (thats in the UK with digital terrestrial - your mileage may vary). Partly, of course, that's because it supports so many standards and hardware alternatives.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Abcd1234]

I love MythTV but, lets be honest, setting it up was a week's worth of intensive nerding...

Nah, with distros these days, it's no more than a day to get a basic system up, plus another day of noodling to fine tune things... well, assuming your hardware works cleanly out of the box (i.e., you don't have to fight with idiotic IRQ conflicts or similar issues, your video card is well supported by X, etc). Really, the hardest part is probably setting up a config for your remote control.

So, while it's true that it isn't especially easy, it's really not *that* hard, either.

Re:No Tivo for me

[bughunter]

Yeah, I don't get the "no competition" angle, either. It seems like TFAuthor lacks a few important clues, not just the VCR=time shift that's dominated so many threads.

I've been watching TV on an iMac for 4 years now, ever since I brought home a Plextor demodulator-encoder, which came bundled with EyeTV. Streaming MPEG video into USB, straight from my cableco's clear QAM. I haven't voluntarily watched a commercial at home for four years, and seldom watch anything live, or even from the live buffer. When I refer to it in front of an audience of non-geeks, I just call it a Tivo. At work, when we offer a buffered, streamed surveillance camera, we call the function a "Tivo capability," for the non-technical. The word is like Kleenex now.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Fitch]

I really hate reading this. "I love Myth, but it required me to actually do some work". Remind us all again how much that software cost you???

Myth, while not without it's share of issues, represents a monumental acheivement by the devs. It can do things no commercial product ever will, like run your very own shell script after a recording completes. I've invested hundreds of hours worth of 'nerding' in it since .19, and I will happily continue to do so in the name of shunning all forms of DRM.

Man up or open your wallet and purchase something ready-made. Either way, quitcherbitchin!

Re:No Tivo for me

[edmicman]

Really, the hardest part is probably setting up a config for your remote control.

This was my biggest complaint when I messed with it ~4 years ago, and why I ended up switching to MCE2005 and Vista MC since then. The Myth setup more or less went OK, but my remote never fully worked. Sure, it did the basic stuff, but some of the buttons I didn't know what they did, and some of the playback functionality was strange. I never did get around to fully customizing it, and part of it was I didn't want to have to muck around with customizing every button combo for every Myth app in the first place. It's an MCE remote, so it Just Works with Windows Media Center. I really miss MythWeb, though, and the ability to ssh into the box. I hate the single-userness of Windows, and the remote web guide that's available sucks.

Re:No Tivo for me

[slim]

I really hate reading this. "I love Myth, but it required me to actually do some work". Remind us all again how much that software cost you???

Myth, while not without it's share of issues, represents a monumental acheivement by the devs. It can do things no commercial product ever will, like run your very own shell script after a recording completes.

It would actually surprise me if this couldn't be done on a TiVo. At least, on a Series 1.

I've invested hundreds of hours worth of 'nerding' in it since .19, and I will happily continue to do so in the name of shunning all forms of DRM.

Man up or open your wallet and purchase something ready-made. Either way, quitcherbitchin!

Thanks for your work - seriously. I love that MythTV (and Freevo, etc.) exist.

I continue to pay TiVo subs purely because taking a day to assemble and set up a box is harder than paying the money. It would take me longer because I've lost whatever expertise I ever had in PC hardware; and I'd want an almost silent low power MythTV box that did hardware-assisted decoding.

There's an opportunity for someone: sell me MythTV installed in a quiet box, ready to plug in and use.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I set up MythTV the tuning just wouldn't work right but it seems to have been fixed. I recently reinstalled on some newer drives in LVM and it took less than an hour to configure. This is on UK freeview using Ubuntu 9.10 server and manually installing myth-backend.

Re:No Tivo for me

[JustNiz]

I use mythbuntu, a myth-centric distro.

Most of the hard work is done. It still takes maybe a day to configure your particular setup. Matching scanned DTV channels to XMLIDs for listing data is for me the biggest pain. ...but its a one-time deal.. you really don't have to ever reconfigure it once its set up.

For the sake of no monthly fees, and all the useful extras like auto commercial skipping I'll suck up the config pain of myth any day.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it... I may have spent a month setting up / tweaking my MythTV setup. I've been using for free (well, $20 / year lateley) with very hardly any maintenance for about six years now. Why is the initial setup such a turnoff for some people?

Re:No Tivo for me

[Hobbiticus]

I really hate reading this. "I love Myth, but it required me to actually do some work". Remind us all again how much that software cost you???

See, that's exactly the kind of mindset that I don't like about open source software in general (specifically just about anything that's developed for the linux platform).

I want to use open source software - I *really* do. However, in many cases, the developers do not make user friendliness and ease of use a priority. This usually manifests itself in the configuration of the software. If the software isn't usable, it's not going to be used, no matter how much the software costs. So, if you want your hard work to be used, tear down the barrier to entry as much as you possibly can.

That said, I use MythTV as my DVR and the only MS products on my computer are Windows 7 and Visual Studio. I greatly appreciate all of the work in the open source community. This is just a pet peeve of mine and many others.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Darinbob]

How much internet bandwidth does it take up though? If I ever get rid of satellite I might consider it, but I may need to get cable just to get enough internet bandwidth for decent internet TV. Though the cost of buying a high quality, low power, low noise, long life PC that can be left on 24/7 for 10 years to work as the MythTV puts me off too.

Re:No Tivo for me

[JustNiz]

It sounde like you incorrectly thinking that MythTV gets its video from the internet.

Although there is a plugin (MythStream) to allow Myth to display internet video and audio streams, thats not where the main video comes from. MythTV's 'input' is just like a regular TV, it comes from an antenna or cable TV or satellite box. So your myth box needs a PC TV tuner card or something like an HDhomerun.

In my case the only reason my mythbox is connected to the internet at all is to get TV listings data, which is a few megs of XML data once every day or so, so myth's internet bandwidth requirements and usage is negligible.

Also not sure why you think you need to get rid of satellite first. If you are using a digital cable or satellite box, MythTV can use an IR blaster to change its channels.

Re:No Tivo for me

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Mythbuntu now after giving my parents my old SD Tivo.

I was able to get two HD OTA tuners, and not have to deal with broadcast flags and encryption of the video files. MythTV also automatically skips commercials if it is setup right.

The only thing is that there are a few bugs and the controller/video card/sound card setup isn't always easy.

Why are markets for

[langelgjm]

As long as cable box manufacturers are selling boxes to cable companies, instead of to consumers, I'm not sure how things will get better. I guess this is a difference between the "end-to-end" model of the Internet and other networks such as the cable network.

Everyone I have discussed CableCards with has basically come to the same conclusion: the cable companies wanted it to fail. I think this stems from their desire to keep control out of the hands of consumers; anything that breaks that principle must be marginalized as much as possible. You see the same deal with locked handsets from the mobile phone companies... they take a perfectly decent piece of hardware, flash their shitty branded firmware on it that actually disables features built in to the phone, then try to sell those features back to you (or in my case, don't offer them).

Re:Why are markets for

[Gadgetfreak]

I completely agree. I have a TiVo HD, and continue to use and enjoy it... but the problem is that I still have to deal with my cable company. I had to pester them for 2 months to get a CableCard out of 'em, and they still charge me $4 a month to rent it.

There's just something ridiculous about paying for information delivery, only to be charged even more money to decode the proprietary signal they send to you.

Before the TiVo, we had analog-only cable, and a Philips stand-alone DVR/DVD burner that worked just fine.

But this day and age, if you want more than 3 or 4 HD channels or even want to think about some of the geekier SD cable stations, you're still stuck having to get equipment from the cable company. And frankly, for the vast majority of people, it's just cheap enough not to care that it sucks.

Re:Why are markets for

[Attila Dimedici]

You are absolutely correct. Of course if TiVo (or somebody else) had sold a DVR that just recorded what people told it to with no monthly fee, the public's demand for the ability to hook it up outside of the cable company's control would have been greater as well. What difference does it make who I pay the monthly fee to?
Another point is that the cable companies' attitude is/was shortsighted. By making it harder for people to obtain timeshifting technology, they accelerated the move to watching video over the Internet.

Re:Why are markets for

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything you write is wrong.

The cable companies did not go after TiVo and try to kill them or even make wishes or pray on it.

The resistance to CableCard from the MSOs was due to the fact that CableCard is nonsense. The arbitrary standard and deadline meant that new hardware and software had to be rushed to development, and then purchased and deployed to every controller on the continent. Meanwhile, the rest of the world was happy with DVBCA or "DVB Common Access." DVBCA could have been implemented in the USA with much less disruption and development expense than CableCard caused.

What a big pain in the ass. And now people whine that all the problems with CableCard are caused by Comcast or Time Warner because their TV and government sucks.

CableCard actually brought benefit to TiVo, who had previously demanded ridiculous terms when approached by MSO's to license/market TiVo as an app across their cable systems. CableCard meant that cheap asian hardware could be easily adapted for use in the USA and be here on the next boat, and TiVo retained their meager lead over ReplayTV at KMart. Everyone who wanted to play had to develop POD host/CableCard host before they got to sell a HD DVR.

While TiVo was securely sitting high on their throne of patent cards, the MSOs asked box vendors for DVR. They got the hardware and a variety of DVR applications very cheaply. TiVo was forced to hang out with DBS providers.

The MSO's are not trying to take control away from you, either. Some MSOs have been very successful at providing a high user experience through their settop. That settop is a specific platform, with an operating system and applications (watchtv, program guide, vod, dvr, video server, dvd burner, etc.) and backoffice servers for all these things. It is not a stupid simple tuner "cable box" like you had in the 80's.

OCAP is trying to make universal advanced standards a reality and has support of the MSO's. But the reality is that when you have a competitive retail market for settops, many products won't perform well. There will always be specific settops that cause problems on the network and have bugs preventing the use of some features on some systems. No doubt there will be cries of "Comcast hates KoreaBoxCo and sabotages them and it's obviously the case because streams come in fine on the real thing that's officially supported."

Bad customer service

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a huge TiVo fan, at one time running 3 boxes in my house (this was before the Tivo HD or Series 3 had come out). I was going to be out of the country for 3 months so I called Tivo and asked them to suspend my service. After a huge going back and forth, they came back and said they would. Well I got home from my trip and checked my bank account and noticed Tivo had charged me the entire time. I called them up and they refused to offer a refund for the time I was without service because the tivos were "connecting to their servers". Well no shit, I didn't unplug them while I was gone!

So, to make a long story short, they had no record my original call. To top it off, they disconnected them *then* for me, without me asking. And then informed me that my old pricing plan $12.95/mo for first and $6.95 for addl ones was no longer available. I would be required to sign a 24 month contract and pay something like $19.95/mo and $9.95/mo additional. Seriously, Tivo is fucked customer service wise. I would never ever give them a cent of mine again. I thought the original rates were bad for what you're getting (tribune listings which are available all over the net for free) but the new prices are jaw-dropping. I hope Tivo fails. I really like my Dish DVR now, 3 tuners, can record 2 HD shows, 1 HD off-air show, and watch a separate show.

We stopped using TiVo

[TimeElf1]

We stopped using TiVo because we got rid of our land line. No land line no TiVo, at least that how it was four years ago. Perhaps they have made it into the digital age since then. I do miss TiVo just recording things you might find interesting though I wish my cable provider had something like that.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[pivo]

Tivos have been able to use Wifi instead of telephone lines for years now. In fact, you have to if you want to use their Netflix or Amazon movie download service.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[LanMan04]

You can use an ethernet cable or wifi to connect your TiVo to the internet. The Series 2 box I bought in 2005 had that capability.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[tgd]

Tivo hasn't required a phone line for Tivo since the Series 2 came out... what, six or seven years ago?

With the Series 1, you had to hack it to go phone-free, but I have not had a phone line hooked to a Tivo in probably pushing eight years.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[natehoy]

That was one of the major reasons I chose ReplayTV over TiVo when I took the DVR plunge about 6 years or so ago. Replay had both a phone and Ethernet port, and I didn't have a landline.

As a side effect, someone wrote an open source Java applet that pretends to be a ReplayTV and can copy shows from my Replay to my computer, schedule shows from the computer, etc. So the Replay is sitting in the basement as the only thing hooked up to my Cable TV, and I haven't touched its remote in over a year. It just records shows, and I copy them up to my Linux desktop to actually watch them. Kinda like a MythTV server but without all the setup. :)

I think TiVo added Ethernet and even wireless access later on. I have to imagine they have by now.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[slim]

As it happens I've got a spare TiVo ethernet card knocking around. Email me if you want it.

You'd have to chase down drivers, be prepared to mount the TiVo HDD under a special Linux kernel to set it up, etc. But it's pretty straightforward.

Add a WiFi bridge and you're away. Plus you can use TiVoWeb -- schedule recordings over the web.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[elcid73]

I had the same same setup. Plus, I had the first generation models that still had commercial advance built into it. Those were the days. I dumped it because I was tired of the hacked IR/remote solution and just went with cable provided PVR, which I regret now, although I did have an experience with Moxi DVR via my cable provider that I did enjoy. That was a decent UI

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, series 2 you have to the phone line to upgrade the firmware to support wireless. That was just a few years ago.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[TooMuchToDo]

Have to pay ~$70 for the wireless adapter though. Why not build it into the device? My Roku does wireless, and it was $100 total.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Since series 2 came out you could do a trick with a USB lan adapter and setting the dial out number to some odd number like ,7#
It has worked fine for me since it came out. Now series 2 more directly supports it and you don't need the funny workaround.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[Beezlebub33]

It's different now. My tivo talks WiFi to my cablemodem / wireless access point. It gets the data that way, as well as connecting to NetFlix. Its fast and secure (well, it's using WPA) and I don't have to have a phone connection, so could put my TV where I wanted it. The NetFlix connection in particular is great, since I can load up a huge number of Play Now movies for the kids on Netflix and play them through the Tivo interface (which the kids can use). Only downside is that the movies that I want to watch, but don't want the kids watching, can't be on the Play Now list.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[hiryuu]

In fact, you have to if you want to use their Netflix or Amazon movie download service.

This actually reminds me of my question - my sole interest in potentially getting a Tivo would be for the movie services. Would I need a Tivo subscription to use these? I'd love to have a box to access these services, but haven't figured out the best route to do this.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[Darinbob]

Only the standalone Tivo boxes. The DirecTV+Tivo has disabled the usb port and has no ethernet that I know of, and it's essentially series 2. Schedule comes from satellite mostly. Phone line required, but I think this is for pay-per-view as the only way to transmit this extra billing info back to the office. Once you have digital quality signals that can be copied perfectly, the restrictions start showing up :-)

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[unitron]

As it happens I've got a spare TiVo ethernet card knocking around. Email me if you want it.

If he doesn't have that Tivo anymore and if it's a Series One card please reach me at coastalnet.com

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[pivo]

I don't know for certain because I do have tivo service, but I'm pretty sure that you do need it to get movies. By the way, I bought tivo's "lifetime" service option. It's expensive, $300, but I was planning on keeping it long enough that I thought that it would eventually pay off. I'm not sure they even offer that anymore though.

Anyway, there are probably cheaper options if you only want movies.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[pivo]

Yeah, tivos are expensive, I agree. I think you can find wifi adapters that will work for less than $70 though, mine was free with my tivo during a special offer.

The thing is, if you want the features tivo has, there's really nothing better. If you're fine with the what roku does then yeah, save your money.

Re:We stopped using TiVo

[hiryuu]

Thanks for that - it's making me lean toward another option, at the least. :)

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely that depends on what type of "time shifting" you mean. If you're talking about "recording to watch later"

Yup. That's what time-shifting has meant since the term was coined.

In the '70s.

With the introduction of the VCR.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd imagine this predates television - for instance, time-shifting audio by recording off the radio to play it back later. I know I recorded a few hour-long mix shows that started as I was going to bed, then I'd listen to the tape the next day doing homework.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I never had a VCR that let me pause an incoming stream while it continued to record in the background, then let me start watching the past stream while it continued to record the present. In fact, unless you had a VCR with lots of RAM (unlikely) its really impossible with tape based memory alone.

Now maybe the term "time shifting" is not a good one, but for me it translates to more than just watching something I recorded 2 hours earlier. It includes pausing an incoming stream (while background recording still occurs), require a single button click to activate that feature (click pause button), require a single button click to resume watching the "past tense" stream (play button), be able to fast forward/rewind that stream (again while incoming stream is still being recorded), then not to mention the more standard (and admittedly VCRs had this) ability to program the device to record a program playing on a specific time/channel.

VCRs were a great thing while they lasted, and definitely laid some important ground work, but the TiVo experience is really totally different.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Not going to argue the Tivo "experience" (never owned one, myself) but this whole sub-thread is about the semantics of the word "time-shifting". And that generally seems to refer not to the magic Tivo pause button, no matter how much it sounds like it should, but rather to the ability (or the right) to record a show and play it later. And as the other guy said: a VCR or a radio plugged into a tape recorder does exactly that.

Why compare it to the iPod?

[ThisIsAnonymous]

What?

Yet, despite being well-loved and despite having been around longer than the Apple iPod, TiVo comes nowhere close to the iPod/iPhone's success. Apple sells more iPod and iPhone products in a single quarter than TiVo has sold in the entire lifetime of the company.

Why are you even comparing TiVo to the iPod. Why should it come close to the iPod/iPhone's success? They aren't competing products...Are you saying that a product is only successful if it sells the same number of units as an iPod or is as popular as an iPhone?

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPod sells for a profit and doesn't have recurring charges. Tivo sells at a loss and makes it up with monthly charges. Totally different business plan.

Now if Tivo could make a reasonably priced unit that doesn't have a monthly charge, now we're talking...

I have a dual tuner Tivo without a subscription. I use it for the 30 minute pause on 2 channels. Works great.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[HeckRuler]

Because this was written by a businessman, and the ipod is the current standard unit of success. The old or non-techy unit was razors and razor blades. It's a measuring stick they can compare against. And to them, it's entirely the same. It's a product that makes them money. Everything else is mere details to be dealt with by someone they hire. In some regards, it's similar to how geeks are familiar with Wikipedia, and use it as a unit of effort.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya know, compared to the automobile... the iPod has been a resounding failure. I believe I heard it on NPR that Toyota has sold more failing automobiles in the past 3 years than the total number of iPods Apple has sold.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[gafisher]

Agreed. The iPod is hardware with an associated (and optional) service; TiVo is a service with required hardware. It's like comparing apples and door-hinges.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[binaryartist]

Boeing has been there longer than Ipod of Tivo. I dont think Boeing sold has many planes as Apple has sold Ipods. Does that mean its less of a success? I know, I know, this kind of generalization does not hold... I am just stepping up your comparison to another degree. It might be 'intuitive' for you to measure the success of Ipod and Tivo with the same parameters, only thing is, its not scientific.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[Beezlebub33]

New unit of Slashdot measurement for commercial success: one iPod.

I believe that it is 3 iPhones to an iPod. Previous measurements were in PlayStations, and before that VCRs.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[BAlGaInTl]

Precisely. It is like comparing Apples to TiVos.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

Milk sells more units than iPods. Apple should start selling iMilk - they are missing out on a huge market.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[dzfoo]

>> The old or non-techy unit was razors and razor blades. It's a measuring stick they can compare against.

Dude, if you use razor blades as a measuring stick, be careful what you measure. Ouch!

    -dZ.

Re:Why compare it to the iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

McDonalds sells about a billion hamburgers every year so they must be the most successful of all?

It's hard to see how TiVo could really survive.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The trouble is that, as a basic technical task, doing what a Tivo does isn't rocket surgery(particularly now that more broadcasts and cable transmissions are already being transmitted in a nice compressed digital format, and computing power gets ever cheaper. Tivo still wins over the competition in terms of having a UI and attention to quality that isn't utter crap, unlike most of the cable-bundled boxes; but, because of the technical workings of cable, that doesn't really help them enough.

With computers, there is room for the "more expensive but better user experience/interface" option, because all a computer has to do to interact with the internet is speak a few common networking protocols. Even if your ISP has never heard of mac or linux or whatever, that just means that their phone drones won't help you configure.

With cable, the cable companies rule with an iron fist, and have (largely successfully) resisted any efforts to change that. Cablecard is a clusterfuck. One can only assume that it was intended to fail(or, at least, those who wanted it to fail assigned it a task so difficult that no good faith implementation could possibly work properly). This gives first-party boxes a huge advantage over Tivos in all but cases of serious enthusiasts.

Re:It's hard to see how TiVo could really survive.

[dingen]

rocket surgery

I see the US health care system is in worse shape than I thought.

Re:It's hard to see how TiVo could really survive.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

*talking point*
Oh yeah? Well, In canada, there are rockets that have to wait 6 months for surgery!
*/talking point*

Because its premise is flawed

[profBill]

TiVo, in my humble opinion, is based on a fairly flimsy premise: that television is so important to watch that you are willing to spend time and money to make sure you get to watch all of some part of it. Really? Seriously, what is on television that you couldn't miss? Frankly, very little. I'm not trying to be a hater, I watch TV all the time. I just don't care if I miss something. Because whatever I miss I can find later, and if I can't I didn't miss much. It's mind candy, mostly, and we could all do with losing a little "weight".

Re:Because its premise is flawed

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything good on TV will be played over and over till you are sick to death of it. for decades to come.

Why spend money to speed that up? :D

Re:Because its premise is flawed

[slim]

TiVo, in my humble opinion, is based on a fairly flimsy premise: that television is so important to watch that you are willing to spend time and money to make sure you get to watch all of some part of it. Really? Seriously, what is on television that you couldn't miss?

My answer to that it doesn't so much let you watch *more* TV, as improve the quality of what you do watch. Say I watch an hour of TV every day. I can use that time to watch whatever happens to be on, or I can use time shifting to watch something good.

At the quality end of the TV drama spectrum, you're really missing out if you don't watch all the episodes, in the right order. There's no way I'd want to see The Wire or Lost out of order.

Re:Because its premise is flawed

[left00coaster]

I think you'll find most people are using DVRs to keep from being tethered to the TV, watching whatever is on at any given time. It doesn't mean that there is something especially 'important' about TV. But interesting? Perhaps. (Since it's so easy to do, I'll record it and find out.) So your humble opinion notwithstanding, there is nothing 'flimsy' about the TiVo premise.

Sports and other live events, feature films, certain series programming -- all fit nicely into my HD-DVR (free from DirecTV) -- allowing me to view what interests me, on a schedule that suits me. It's not exactly a time machine, but it allows me to control my TV, instead of the other way around. A very robust use for recording technology, in my opinion.

DVR in Europe and South Africa

[AbbeyRoad]

In South Africa I had digital satelite TV which had about 70 channels. Later they came out with a DVR with time shifting. After moving to the Netherlands I expected a way-better service (being "1st world") and everything. Not so: the UPC digital cable service was pretty much the same and in the same order of price. It also had about the same number of channels but there are many Dutch language channels that I don't watch. Major differences are the prevalence of sub-titles in the Dutch service on all English channels except for things like Euro news and CNN, CNBC etc. Also less film info on the film channels (the SA film info always had date of film, directory and leads). Film channels are a premium extra. And no BBC food channel - *sigh*.

Re:DVR in Europe and South Africa

[AbbeyRoad]

Oh, and the Dutch service is way more reliable. SA service had occasional glitches and it seemed to be impossible to get a competant technician to fix my dish.

Re:DVR in Europe and South Africa

[Anonymous Coward]

Which one was it? Your dish or their service which had the glitch?

I also have sat tv here in SA, and no glitches... although some friggen competition would be good.

way too expensive and no broadband support

[alen]

The $300 investment plus the monthly fees is way too much. my Time Warner Cable DVR costs $12.95 a month. and i can upgrade anytime a new model hits their inventory every few years.

TIVO didn't have any broadband support for years after it became popular. i had Vonage since 2003 and couldn't get TIVO because supposedly it didn't work.

my Time Warner DVR isn't the greatest and the new software upgrade last year sucks and is slow as molasses, but its still enough to keep me from spending $300 on a TIVO. and my cable company DVR will record HD with no problem

Re:way too expensive and no broadband support

[CharlieHedlin]

There were ways to connect the TiVo via broadband back then, they needed to make it supported, but it was as simple as plugging in an Ethernet adapter and putting codes in the dialing prefix.

Expense is another part, it has always been way more expensive to use TiVo than the cable company. TiVo should have focused on cost reduction more, without making it a light service. They probably could have indroduced ads earlier (Your cable company depends on ads) to make it cost competitive, but they were busy trying to deliver the best experience and weren't considering cost as a primary objective.

I think the DVR was a rather obvious technology at this time. I had spent a few hours here and there to get my computer to do exactly the same thing for a couple of years. I didn't have the resources to do it cost effectively or in a user friendly way. The fact that Replay and TiVo came out at the same time highlights that it was a matter of computing power catching up and normal technological evolution. Startups like TiVo and Replay are going to have a hard time competing with the big companies like Scientific Atlanta and Motorola when the barriers to entry are so low.

No TV

[etherDave]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't pay for cable TV if I can avoid it; I don't even have an antenna to pick up broadcast. I just pay for broadband internet and watch my favorite shows/movies online via Netflix, Hulu, etc. So maybe TiVo hasn't done well because it appeals to consumers who consume a large amount of media and prefer to do it via cable tv, but many consumers have come to prefer the versatility of the internet (where something like TiVo is unnecessary ).

Re:No TV

[slim]

Interesting position.

TiVo can add value to a standard non-subscription TV service. I had a TiVo when we only had 5 channels (UK analogue terrestrial). Once it had built up a decent backlog of recordings, it was like having 10 extra channels. Effectively, there would always be something watchable on TV.

Apples and Oranges

[reg106]

Why would you even think to lead your submission with a comparison between TiVo and the iPod/iPhone. If you want to compare TiVo to an Apple product, how about the set-top box Apple TV. Or compare it to the Sling Box, or to a Windows Media PC, or MythTV, or something else serves an even remotely similar function to TiVo. Different markets perform differently.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[mdwh2]

Indeed. It comes across as a rather poor attempt to make the Iphones's sales look good, by comparing them to a produce that's seen as popular, but with smaller sales, yet is in a completely different market.

Let's compare the Tivo to other DVRs. And let's compare the Iphones to other phones - which sells small amounts compared to Nokia, LG, Motorola, Samsung.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[imakemusic]

Especially when you consider that an average household might have one shared TiVo box but might have one ipod and one iphone each. Even if TiVo sold a whole lot more it's highly unlikely they'll reach the same amount.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[jedidiah]

No. I think the iPod vs. Tivo comparison is a useful one because then it causes people to
bring up AppleTV. Then you realize that AppleTV probably has sold more units than Tivo has
despite being called a "hobby" by Steve Jobs. In Apple terms, the Tivo is a failure. It
ranks right down there with Pippin or Newton. Despite help introducing a new type of
appliance device, it is still a commercial failure.

Apple seems far too embarrased to release their AppleTV sales numbers. I suspect that they
are pretty much on par with Tivo sales numbers.

Although an AppleTV can be made to be useful as a general purpose device. It is not quite
as much of a boat anchor when disconnected from iTunes as an out of service Tivo is.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[ubrgeek]

And cable company STB's are the key reason. Anyone who's used a Tivo knows the UI/functionality of the STB is generally crap. But it's good enough for most users who have never seen a Tivo. They want to watch shows later, the cable company commercials say their product will do that, end of story.

The other reason is the (to date) general requirement for you to use a cable card, or in some cases two cable cards, and the more expensive of the Tivo units to avoid using the STB. Again, the average user doesn't know what a cable card is, and the company's Websites generally make them sound like it's easier to .

Re:Apples and Oranges

[Darinbob]

McDonald's sells more hamburgers than Apple sells iPhones, thus iPhones are a flop!

HD TiVo review...

[Michael Kristopeit]

i have the HD tivo, and i move every 4 months... getting the cablecard from the cable company and getting it installed is always a GIANT headache, usually having to deal with comcast customer service that pretends they have never heard of a tivo or cablecard...BUT, after it's set up and working.... nothing beats it. dual HD tuners, that can record while you are downloading web content simultaneously, with high quality netflix streaming, a giant hard drive with eSATA to seamlessly attach any 3rd party hard drive for additional storage... it's a dream and 100% wife approved, but if she had to figure it all out and convince comcast that she really did know what she was talking about, she would never get it set up. it is most certainly a cable company conspiracy. i enjoy my chats with all the cable installer guys as i ask them to justify the cablecard which is just a glorified hardware password... eventually i can get them all to admit that it's just about renting you another piece of hardware. i'm always charged a monthly fee to rent my multistream cablecard... without the cablecard the digital service has no value, and subscribers can not use their own cablecards, so i don't understand how it's legal to sell the service and require the hardware rental as a separate fee... also, the channel lineups available are a giant mess requiring much effort to remove duplicates... can't really fault tivo for that... more conspiracy. i'm just wondering if the set top boxes distributed by comcast also contain 5 copies of most network channels.

DirecTV and TiVo

[Matt_Bennett]

TiVo *MUST* get back with DirecTV ASAP. TFA mentions it, but the reunion of DirecTV and TiVo (with HD) is what I'm waiting for, and why I've stayed with DirecTV without even considering other services. I've tried other DVRs, and compared to TiVo, they uniformly suck. Couple TiVo with the direct recording of the digital stream... and you've got nearly the perfect combination in terms of user interface and picture quality. I was going to stick with my old tube TV and Standard Def DirecTiVo, but a lightning hit took 'em out. Went to the DirecTV HD DVR... slow, featureless, small capacity, and leased. I don't want a separate box, as ultimately that solution is a kludge and would bring forth other issues (not counting the picture degradation by the multiple encoding/decoding).

They are already at least 6 months past the first promised date for the HD DirecTiVo. Don't know what is holding it up, but both DirecTV and TiVo should have this as a corporate priority. If Dish switched to TiVo, I'd switch in an instant, even with the termination fees I'd suffer.

Re:DirecTV and TiVo

[natehoy]

DirectTV just bought out ReplayTV, who makes a decent DVR (or used to). I doubt they'll be snuggling back up with TiVo anytime soon.

Re:DirecTV and TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

What's holding it up is that DTV isn't really interested. They're official working on it, but in practice, it's quite obvious that the unsaid message is "if this succeeds, HR2x fails".

Posting anonymously since I'm working on the integration of the new tivo box...

Re:DirecTV and TiVo

[GiMP]

Dish Network has the VIP 722 which many argue is very competitive to a TiVO. It does lack some features, but it also provides others which the TiVO doesn't offer. It is worth, at least, a consideration.

Tivo is not failing because of collusion

[CByrd17]

Come on, really? Tivo is losing subscribers for a few reasons: 1) Cable companies now offer their own DVRs -- Tivo used to be the only game in town 2) You don't have to buy a new DVR if your cable company's DVR fails; you just trade in your old one -- with Tivo...if it's outside the warranty period you have to buy a new one (yes, I know the cable company charges you a monthly rental fee) 3) Cable companies don't charge anything for the privilege of recording onto a DVR (Tivo makes you buy the box AND charges you a monthly fee). I used to have Tivo, and I liked it, but not enough to buy a third new box after my first two failed. Especially considering the above.

Because it doesn't make sense.

[Zaphod-AVA]

Massively broadcasting a show to everyone at a specific time and having a large number of them set up a machine to record that show to watch later is dumb. Hosting the same show on a server and having everyone download it (or stream it) and watch it whenever they feel like makes sense.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tha is not very efficient, it is way more efficient to have evertyone download and upload small chunks of the show to reduce network load.

Ow, wait, we already have that and it's called p2p.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[BVis]

It makes sense to the consumer. It doesn't make sense to the advertiser, who will see their spots stripped out in "edited" versions that will make their appearance on bittorrent about half an hour after the content is made available.

Unfortunately, television is mostly still paid for with advertising. Thank FSM for the 30 second skip.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[imakemusic]

If you're looking for sense you're on the wrong planet.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[Abcd1234]

Massively broadcasting a show to everyone at a specific time and having a large number of them set up a machine to record that show to watch later is dumb. Hosting the same show on a server and having everyone download it (or stream it) and watch it whenever they feel like makes sense.

Bullshit. From a network management standpoint, it makes *far* more sense to broadcast (or even better, multicast) the content once and have the end-user store it for later retrieval, rather than having thousands or millions of people downloading the same content over and over again, wasting precious bandwidth on their backhaul network.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[nmos]

It makes sense to the consumer. It doesn't make sense to the advertiser, who will see their spots stripped out in "edited" versions that will make their appearance on bittorrent about half an hour after the content is made available.

That already happens.

If a person is going to the trouble of recording, encoding and uploading a video anyway then they might as well cut the commercials as well. If the broadcasters just put out their own versions complete with commercials on BT or whatever I'm not convinced that many people would bother downloading, editing, and re-uploading just to get rid of them. End users might still skip past them (like many do already) but better commercials could largely fix that.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[nmos]

It seams to me that, baring legal issues, ISPs could run some sort of caching BT proxy or something similar.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[Abcd1234]

You missed the point. Broadcast/multicast will *always* be cheaper on the backhaul network than having users download content on demand, as you send the data out once at broadcast time, rather than once for every viewer.

Re:Because it doesn't make sense.

[Darinbob]

But that solution takes far more bandwidth as well! Transmit a show once only, versus transmitting it once for each user who wants to see it. We don't have that sort of bandwidth on the internet if this became standard. Just because you're bleeding edge with your technology doesn't mean everyone else is.

(reminds me of the early adopters of cable internet who loved it, until all their neighbors got it as well and the bandwidth had to be shared)

false credit

[pydev]

TiVo didn't invent the DVR, they were simply the first company with a successful consumer product. And they were successful just because prices had come down so much.

And it's a dying and obsolete product category anyway.

Re:false credit

[slim]

I don't recall a retail product before TiVo's. They had to invent their own filesystem in order to stream video fast enough using the hardware available at the time, so they certainly invested in innovation -- just to be a couple of years ahead of what inevitably would become possible with a normal FS on standard hardware.

Re:false credit

[Abcd1234]

And it's a dying and obsolete product category anyway.

Uhuh. Sure it is. Meanwhile, Echo and Direct are both moving their customer base over to DVRs as fast as they can, and cable companies have been rolling out DVRs to their customers for years and years.

Pro-tip: Just because you're a nerd who pirates all his content, doesn't mean everyone else is.

Re:false credit

[TooMuchToDo]

Who needs a DVR when you can stream your content on your schedule? Netflix Instant Streaming, Comcast OnDemand, Hulu, etc. DVRs are on their way out.

Pro-tip: You're not a pirate if you don't need a DVR because everything you watch can be streamed online.

Re:false credit

[Abcd1234]

Who needs a DVR when you can stream your content on your schedule?

And I'm telling you most people don't do that. Hell, most people don't even have their computer hooked up to their TV.

Seriously, anyone who thinks that streaming will replace regular broadcast TV any time soon are either dreaming or are just deeply confused about the way the world works outside their mom's basement.

Re:false credit

[TooMuchToDo]

Seriously, anyone who thinks that streaming will replace regular broadcast TV any time soon are either dreaming or are just deeply confused about the way the world works outside their mom's basement.

Seriously, anyone who thinks people are going to continue to pay $50-$150/month for *TV* in this economy is leaving on their parent's salary. I make six figures, and I'd be damned if I'm going to shell out anywhere near $50/month for hundreds of junk channels when I only watch 5-6 shows.

Re:false credit

[TooMuchToDo]

s/leaving/living

Re:false credit

[Abcd1234]

Seriously, anyone who thinks people are going to continue to pay $50-$150/month for *TV* in this economy is leaving on their parent's salary. I make six figures, and I'd be damned if I'm going to shell out anywhere near $50/month for hundreds of junk channels when I only watch 5-6 shows.

Look you're *not normal*. And you're browsing a website full of people who aren't normal just like you. You have the knowledge and the technical expertise to set up an alternative that works for you, but that makes you *atypical*.

Honestly, look outside your little box for a second. Do you honestly think your mother or grandmother is gonna break out a PC and stream TV from Hulu? No. Hell, your average PC owner probably doesn't even realize they *can* hook their computer up to their TV.

Re:false credit

[babyrat]

ReplayTV and Tivo were both introduced at CES in 1998.

Re:false credit

[Darinbob]

And they likely don't have the bandwidth to do this either. The internet will start choking badly if everyone decides to start downloading their average amount of TV from the internet, the capability is not there. This is a nice idea for a small number of people, but it doesn't scale at the moment.

Re:false credit

[pydev]

I don't recall a retail product before TiVo's.

So? How does that contradict what I said?

They had to invent their own filesystem in order to stream video fast enough using the hardware available at the time, so they certainly invested in innovation

How does that translate into "they invented the DVR"?

TiVo did a good job engineering a low-cost consumer DVR and they were first at that. That doesn't mean they invented the DVR.

Re:false credit

[pydev]

Pro-tip: Just because you're a nerd who pirates all his content, doesn't mean everyone else is.

Just because you're an idiot who lives in the digital sticks doesn't mean everybody else does as well.

Between Netflix, iTunes, and my cable operator's movie and TV library, there is exactly zero need for me to either record or pirate anything.

Re:false credit

[pydev]

Do you honestly think your mother or grandmother is gonna break out a PC and stream TV from Hulu?

Are you living under a rock? Many cable TV boxes provide on-demand video. DSL often comes with free or cheap on-demand video these days. Netflix and other companies offer additional little boxes you can hook up to your TV.

Re:false credit

[pydev]

This stuff doesn't go "over the Internet": cable and DSL companies themselves provide you with on-demand video, often from a disk cache that sits within a few miles of your house and where the data only travels over their wires.

iPhone I've heard of...

[Anonymous Coward]

... but what is this TiVo?

An international perspective

[Sockatume]

That's what you get when your markets aren't competitive, so there's no reason for them to embrace new things. Sky, our big satellite TV operator, started agressively pitching a branded PVR system called "Sky Plus" about five years ago, as a selling point versus the entrenched cable companies. Time passes, the idea's lodged on the public mind, and now PVRs are a ubiquitous option when you sign up for a TV service, mandatory with an HDTV service, whether it's through satellite or cable, and there's a concerted marketing effort for free-to-air PVR boxes under the "Freeview Plus" banner. There are about twice as many Sky Plus subscribers on our tiny island as there are TiVo users in the entire US.

Re:An international perspective

[langelgjm]

Yeah, that's actually what I started to type in my subject line... "Why are markets in the US so screwed up" etc.

But really, Comcast and Verizon FiOS do offer DVR services now that consumers seem to like. But it's not a competitive market in the sense that you can go buy any DVR you want, like you could with VCRs.

Besides, after using MythTV it's really hard to go back to branded, crappy company-provided DVRs.

Re:An international perspective

[bleh-of-the-huns]

I take offense at you putting Comcast and Fios in the same sentence :)

Just kidding, I hate them both.. but FIOS is an awesome service (while verizon is only slightly less high on my hate list).

I know alot of people on both (I have FIOS), as for getting a cable card from them, 2 days and it was done, try doing that with comcast, it will take months.

The DVR's on both are either Scientific Atlanta (which I think is Cisco owned now), or Motorola, both are absolute pieces of shit, most people complain about them all the time, especially the guide data which is frequently wrong. That is where Tivo seems to excel, there have been very few times (DC Metro Area), that my Tivo guide data was wrong, and that is usually due to very short notice political events (presidential speeches etc) preempting whatever was on.

My wife originally said hell no to getting a new tivo (we had 2 tivo's at the time but they were non cable card SD versions when I had directv) as the price tag was around $800 for the S3 at the time. 5 minutes of trying to use the Motorola box that came with FIOS got me an angry call from my wife, a dent in the wall from where the remote hit it.. and an order to buy the S3 on the way home.

Just go peruse broadband reports FIOS forums, filled with complaints ont eh box, frequent lock ups, guide data wrong, guide data right but DVR still does not record whatever show you have schedule, recorded shows dissapearing, no page up and page down on the remote (seriously.. how could they overlook that.. there are like 500+ channels....) and it was slow.. very very slow... And those were just my issues...

While I will admit my S3 Tivo is somewhat slow to respond, it has never let me down on its sole function, recording crap for myself and my wife to watch, it does that, and it does it well. We will gladly pay slightly more for something that works as opposed to paying a rental fee for something that does not (not to mention Verizon customizes everything they touch with eye bleeding red and ads all over the place.

Re:An international perspective

[Darinbob]

The reason they do offer DVR service is because of Tivo and Replay TV. Cable companies would far prefer to offer something just slightly better than over the air broadcast if they could get away with it.

It's not a competitive market for DVRs though because those need to be integrated with the cable and satellite providers. And that's because the content is locked up tight. There's no standard for exchanging schedule information which is a big roadblock, and no standard way for the DVR to control the channels. Then there's the whole issue of locking it all up tight for fears of piracy and DRM. Even on my DirecTV+Tivo they removed a standard Tivo feature so that the usb on the back is a no-op so that you can't export and back up copies of digital quality programs; and pay-per-view can only be saved for 24 hours (bastards!) which I'm pretty sure is due to pressure on DirecTV from Hollywood.

People dont' care as much about analog signal; though if they could lock it up tight I'm sure they would. Thus VCRs are pretty much interchangeable and competitive. My old DirecTV without TV was interesting; it could turn on and off the recording on my VCR, so I used satellite to schedule recording in advance. If DVRs were set up similarly it would be nice; use the cable box to handle scheduling, and the DVR to handle playback and storage. But because it's a digital signal the DRM will lock it down.

Unlike the TiVo, my PVR doesn't spy on me...

[Telephone Sanitizer]

My LiteOn PVR has a simple timer for recording like a VCR.

It has user-replaceable parts.

It doesn't require a paid subscription.

LiteOn doesn't sell records of my viewing habits.

It hasn't got a partition allocated for ads.

It doesn't display ad-banners when I pause or fast forward.

It has editing features.

It has a built-in DVD burner.

Yeah, TiVo offers a few neat features, but I'd have to give up a lot of utility and a great deal of privacy to get them. F-k that. My next PVR will be a computer with a Hauppauge tuner.

Sky +

[slim]

My UK TiVo still has a little "As recommended by Sky" logo when it boots.

But Sky (Rupert Murdoch's satellite TV service) now has its own DVR.

It *really* annoys me when people coo about how clever their Sky+ is. "I can pause live TV! How awesome is that?", when TiVo had done it for years.

OTOH now you can get cheap DVRs from all kinds of manufacturers, so nobody's all that impressed any more, there's a free market, and that's all for the best.

I still think TiVo has the best UI over all.

Re:Sky +

[Dominic]

Sky actually bought the UK rights to Tivo and killed it. I guess he didn't want a competitor to Sky+. Having said that, Sky still supports the Tivo and does the listings updates for them (as far as I know - I sold my Tivo a year or two ago).

Apples and Oranges

[mdwh2]

I agree entirely - these are different markets, how is this comparison irrelvant? Were they just slow for today's obligitary daily Iphone mention?

One might as well say that the TiVo doesn't sell as much as Nokia, or Microsoft (both of whom have shipped far more than Apple - indeed, can we have an article on how Apple don't sell as many phones as most other phone companies, or how Macs don't sell as much as Windows PCs? Of course that would be viewed as flamebait...)

Lumping the Iphone with the Ipod also makes different sense - so the Tivo has to compete against two different families of products, not just one? Why not compare the Iphone to say, every product that Microsoft have ever released...

The comparison also makes no sense in that the Tivo is measured in terms of the number of current users, whilst figures for things like phones are usually total sales. What are the Tivo's total sales, ever?

Never Mind That; "Tivo Geek" ??

[RobotRunAmok]

How's that stack up against being a "Toaster Oven Geek"? Or "iPhone Geek"? Or "Honda Civic Geek"? Hell, I'm hungry, I think I'm going to go be a Peanut-Butter-and-Jelly-on-White-Bread-Geek.

Re:Never Mind That; "Tivo Geek" ??

[slim]

To be fair, there's quite a TiVo hacking community. I think these people qualify as TiVo geeks:
  - Whoever worked out how to fit an Ethernet card in a Series 1 TiVo
  - Whoever worked out which bytes to poke in the encoder chip driver to enable it to record in the undocumented higher res Mode 0, without the distracting offset.
  - The authors of TiVoWeb - an open source web interface to TiVo scheduling etc.
  - The creators of the cachecard - an ethernet card with some on-board RAM, plus drivers which cause the TiVo to cache its program DB on there, for speed.

Re:Never Mind That; "Tivo Geek" ??

[Cramer]

- Whoever worked out how to fit an Ethernet card in a Series 1 TiVo

That'd be Tivo, Inc. The tivo hacking community improved upon the idea -- first with the TivoNet ISA card "hack" and then the amazing Turbonet board. Both of which run circles around what Tivo's design can do.

- Whoever worked out which bytes to poke in the encoder chip driver to enable it to record in the undocumented higher res Mode 0, without the distracting offset.

That'd be tridge. And he has(had) the full Sony provided documentation for the encoder chip.

Re:Never Mind That; "Tivo Geek" ??

[jonwil]

Do TiVO continue to make it hard to copy the videos OFF the device or to replace the kernel and root software?

Are there still PVRs out there where you CAN copy the files off the device right out of the box or have all of them been forced to remove this functionality at the behest of the content providers?

Re:Never Mind That; "Tivo Geek" ??

[mattack2]

You can copy *most* videos off the device very easily... With free software (unfortunately on Windows), or the official Mac OS X solution is via Toast.. But you can also get them from any computer by going to the web server hosted by the Tivo.

With recordings from analog cable or OTA, you should be able to transfer *all* recordings. (The don't copy bit is disallowed by the FCC for OTA recordings.) For *some* recordings when you have a Cable Card installed, you won't be able to transfer them (e.g. I can't transfer the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame concert from a few months ago that was on HBO.. I'll just dub it realtime to my DVD recorder.. which apparently is set to 'copy once', since I can't record it to DVD from there, but I can record it to DVD-RAM..).

Some people have had worse experience (though others HAVE successfully gotten cable companies to turn OFF the copy protection bits that were wrongly turned on), but you cannot blame this on Tivo.. you can blame this on the Cable Card Alliance or whatever it's called -- these requirements are mandated by them. (Note any OTHER DVR that supports CableCards will have the same kinds of restrictions... as much as I hate having to rent cablecards [though they're cheap], it's still FAR less bad than controlling a separate box via an IR blaster -- which is why I never had a cable box..)

The cable co killed tivo with there poor cable car

[Joe The Dragon]

The cable co killed tivo with there poor cable card system, SDV (for some time tivo where unable to get SDV channels) the lack of cable VOD, in some systems you where not able to get sports and event ppv on tivo. Also there are long list of people going though cable card hell to get there tivo working as well.

TIVO needs a tru2way box that can go 2way and cable VOD but it needs to something big like 3-4 tuners and hope that the cable co don't hit tru2way users with DVR fees (yes tru2way forces cable co software and gui on you) outlet fees and HD cable card / outlet fees (yes some cable co's have HD cable card fees) and they may try to hit you with a cable card rent fee (you should be able to buy one)

Also they need a New direct tv box (but with they want hit you with a tivo fee on top of the directv fees for dvr that may kill off tivo) and but directv is working on there own 5+ tuner sever box with mini boxes at each tv as well.

to bad that Myth TV cant do cable card / cable VOD

[Joe The Dragon]

to bad that Myth TV cant do cable card / cable VOD and does that Myth TV guide pick up all in house cable channels or will it just say no data on the channels?

Because it's hard to understand why it's better

[NotSoHeavyD3]

than a VCR. Look I have a Tivo and find it difficult to watch TV with out it after having one. The thing is before I got one I really didn't understand how much of a difference it makes. The Tivo basically solves every issue I've ever had with time shifting on a VCR. But it's hard to really understand how much of a difference that makes when you're watching TV. After you have one for a couple of weeks you understand and you realize you almost always watch everything time shifted because it's so convenient but if somebody was looking at it in the store they probably look at it like a VCR that you can't change tapes. (It's not, all us Tivo owners know that but most people arn't going to understand how much better a self programming, self organizing VCR that can play and record at the same time really is.)

Re:Because it's hard to understand why it's better

[dzfoo]

Yes, TiVo is much more useful than a VCR, I'll grant that. It is also much more expensive, not to mention that it spies on your viewing habits and sells them to advertisers, injects pop-up ads when you are attempting to skip in-show ads, and requires you to pay a fee every month for a service of dubious necessity.

I'm sold!

        -dZ.

I'll tell you why they're not that big

[Anonymous Coward]

Outside of the USA, Tivo doesn't exists.

Real geeks use myth tv

[Anonymous Coward]

As geeks like Tivo and real geeks use Myth TV there are never going to be a huge bunch of Tivo users.

No choice for PVRs

[Syberz]

Up here in Canadia we don't have Tivo, but we do have PVRs and lord do they suck.

Depending on the carrier you chose, you're locked to a specific model (which costs 500$) with an interface circa 1995. It's slow as molasses to navigate and they don't all offer a lot of functionality (why doesn't my Videotron model allow me to hide channels that I'm not subscribed to?) and the interface is ugly as hell. For some reason (I suspect forced replacement), those devices also corrupt the HD after a few years of use and cannot be upgraded.

I can chose between 125+ different DVD players but I can't chose the device to watch tv with? Why is that?

Re:to bad that Myth TV cant do cable card / cable

[Rich0]

MythTV doesn't pick up channels - your schedule info service does that. MythTV will support EIT if your broadcaster support it, in which case you'll get whatever schedule info they broadcast.

SchedulesDirect is probably the most common schedule service in the US, and it tends to have just about anything any on-screen guide will have (they get their data from Tribute, which is what everybody else uses). It will cost you $20/yr though or so.

Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[elrous0]

I used to have a Tivo. I had two in fact, including my personal favorite DVR of all-time, the Humax Tivo (to my knowledge, the only stand-alone DVR to date that allows you to burn your recordings to DVD). Tivo had great features, one-of-a-kind abilities (like the aforementioned burning to DVD option), and the best user interface in the DVR business. There were some downsides (a lousy 30 minute recording queue, sluggish menu performance on some of the models, etc.). But for the most part it was *the* superior DVR.

So why did I give it up? Two reasons: digital cable and HD. Tivo lagged way behind my cableco's native DVR on implementing both. Cablecards took a while to come out, and were buggy and a pain in the ass to install. Their HD models were expensive and, again, lagged behind my cableco. And when my cableco went to Switched Digital Video (SDV) even the cablecard stopped working for many of the newer HD channels. It just got tiring having to constantly wrestle with my cableco over my rogue DVR. It was a lot easier for me to just pay the $9 a month and get the cableco's native DVR (which is actually pretty good, though certainly no Tivo). That's probably what the cableco intended all along, I'm sure--but I'm not going to spend a fortune and put up with missing channels just to tell them to go to hell.

Tivo's collapse as DVR leader can basically be traced to one thing: their failure to license their technology to or reach an agreement with the cable companies. Without the official support of the Time-Warners and Comcasts of the world, they've essentially condemned themselves to forever being the outsider in the digital TV world. So they will always lag behind with kludgy solutions like buggy cablecards and hit-or-miss SDV adapters (don't get me started on those things). And, even for a pretty dedicated videophile and TV addict like myself, the native cableco DVR is just too tempting an alternative.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[LordKazan]

You realize if the cablecard isn't functioning they're violating federal law

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[elrous0]

Then you need to tell Time Warner and Comcast they're both violating federal law, because their newer SDV channels do not work with any existing cablecards. You have to get an SDV adapter--which may or may not be available from your local cableco, and may or may not actually work.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[elrous0]

I should also note that the Tivo HD models all have a huge annoying downside that my cableco's native DVR doesn't, they can't upconvert existing SD chennels to an HD signal. Why is that important? Because every time I change channels between an SD channel and HD channel on a Tivo, my TV has to auto-adjust to the new signal (causing a serious delay and screen flickering). with my cableco's DVR, the TV thinks its always getting an HD signal, and so no such adjustments needed. This probably isn't as bad on some HDTV's, but on mine it makes channel surfing annoying as hell.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[corecaptain]

I have Humax running right now in the Den. Love this box. The DVD burning feature is so nice. Just pop in a blank disk, select the shows to burn
and done. Now you have a DVD to take with you on vacation, for the kids in the car, or to pass to a friend. Sadly they don't sell this unit or any other
with DVD burner built in.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Right on the front of the TiVo, press the Format button and select a Fixed mode (480p/720p/1080i) and it'll send everything out in that format.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[powerlord]

Yeah ... why didn't they put an option to set this up?

Something like:

Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Video -> Video Output Format

I mean, how hard would it have been?

Oh. That IS where the setting is? Never mind then.

Re:Confessions of a former TIvo owner

[HTH NE1]

The SDV boxes are unreliable (often failing to request the switched stream) and also set broadcast flags on channels that would not otherwise be flagged, preventing the TiVo from sharing those programs with other TiVos or sharing with a home computer (likely also preventing burning to DVD on select models).

This is possibly because one of the possible two channels tuned through an SDV box is digitized by the SDV box and fed to the TiVo digitally, not in analog, so they're asserting copyright over that encoding. Which also means your TiVo's quality settings for analog channels will be usurped. Yet still, both recordings are so flagged. Take the SDV box out of the loop and analog channel programming can be shared.

In Lincoln, NE, Time Warner Cable is even flagging programs recorded from analog broadcast channels to prevent in-home sharing. Only the digital broadcast channels remain unaffected, though they've come through as flagged "Copy Once" over Firewire-enabled cable boxes.

Lincoln, NE was also one of the test markets for the Mystro software on their Scientific Atlanta cable boxes which have the annoying habit of throwing out attempts to change channels while a program is starting, making them unusable with TiVos that can't pad the start of programs. And coupled with networks starting programs early/late, even that workaround isn't completely reliable as it depends on when the channel you're leaving starts its next program.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

I really cannot understand the monthly service fee. I never bought one because of it. On the other hand I have DishNetwork with a DVR and my friends tell me it is better than crap TiVO and I just pay for the satellite service $40/Month. Beat that TiVO.

TiVo has a new lease of life in the UK

[Fross]

They announced a few months ago, that all Virgin media's customers will have new boxes with software provided by TiVo, from 2010. That's currently around 4 million customers.

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/virgin-media-bringing-tivo-back-to-uk-653858

Not sure how this ties up with Virgin's general plans, to roll out faster fiber nationwide. I can't see the point of a PVR when you have enough bandwidth to stream anything on demand.

Re:TiVo has a new lease of life in the UK

[slim]

I can't see the point of a PVR when you have enough bandwidth to stream anything on demand.

From a broadcaster's perspective, if the technology's there, it must be cheaper to multicast a stream once (or a few times) than to have thousands of individual end-to-end streams.

Monthly Fee + Corporate Farkwads

[LordKazan]

listings for mythTv from SchedulesDirect: $20 PER YEAR
listings for Tivo: $16 PER MONTH.

No reason for guide data for tivo to cost so frakking much. And then there is the idea they think that if you hack your box - YOUR BOX, you bought it - to get listings somewhere else that you are stealing service from them.

No, getting listings from them without paying would be theft of services. Getting your listings from somewhere else is not.

TiVo is run by a bunch of corporate farkwads.

Re:Monthly Fee + Corporate Farkwads

[osgeek]

Right on...

Like many others in this thread, it all comes down to not wanting to pay outrageous subscription fees.

It just never made economic sense.

Tivo is just too friggin' greedy. On top of subscription fees, then they have the nerve to put ads in their users' faces.

No way.

I can build my own PVR *system* so don't need their nonsense. I don't even care if it sometimes costs me more to go my own way. Screw Tivo. They wasted a shitload of good will and credit for the coolness of their ideas with a lot of bare naked greed.

Re:Monthly Fee + Corporate Farkwads

[ChrisMaple]

TIVO has to get their money somehow. They've never been much of a financial success, so somewhere they must be bleeding money in an inexcusable manner. In the end, this must be incompetence at the top. I see this more of a problem of failing to run the company properly than greed.

Re:Monthly Fee + Corporate Farkwads

[LordKazan]

it is greed, at the same time as failing to run the company properly.

they're selling hardware - they should be able to make a profit at it. especially at the outrageous prices for the Tivo Series 3 HD.

Re:Monthly Fee + Corporate Farkwads

[LanMan04]

$16? Try $9.

Maybe, you answered your own question

[BlueTrin]

gjt writes

For the couch-potato geek, one name typically comes to mind: TiVo.

To become a success for the masses, a product has to appeal to the masses. The reason the iPod and iPhone were successful was not that they were the first or the most powerful phones, but because they were well marketed and are usable and appeal to your average non-geek.

The corporate history is full of the graves of the people who did not understand this. One example which comes to my mind is home automation, ten/twenty years ago people were hyped about this and promised that your home would be fully automated by AI and computers. Now we are in 2010 and your average home only has the basics of home automation, just because it is fairly expensive and does not appeal to the masses (I do not wake up in the morning and wonder how cool it would be to pay 20k to have my heating fulling automated). It may come in the future but when it will come, it will have been re-thought to appeal to a viable customer base (like Apple with the iPod has beaten the crap out of the Archos and other MP3 players).

Now you may argue that Archos was there before Apple, but the fact is that Apple understood how to market their iPod.

Tivo needs to move to iptv

[asv108]

The biggest problem with Tivo's current model is the fact that Tivo is entirely dependent on cable companies and satellite providers. I have a Tivo HD, its an awesome device, but I'm the only person I know who has one. When the cable company offers a crappy integrated "dvr," not many people are going to motivated to pay more, and go through more hassle (cable cards), just to have a Tivo. Tivo needs to cut out the middleman, and offer an iptv device. No cable cards, no contracts with satellite providers, just plug it in to your network.

Re:Tivo needs to move to iptv

[danielsfca2]

Tivo needs to cut out the middleman, and offer an iptv device. No cable cards, no contracts with satellite providers, just plug it in to your network.

Of course, with cablecos owning major chunks of cable networks and now broadcast networks (NBC), they would never allow an IPTV startup to carry any halfway-complete set of channels... And with no net neutrality, our monopoly cable and phone companies that both want to sell you their TV services can throttle back "Tivo IP" to about 10Kbps... Crap.

I love my TIVO, but company has problems...

[corecaptain]

I currently have 2 Tivos - 1 of them HD - and a cable co dvr. The interface is the best and Tivo just works. The cable company's dvr can't touch it.
One small example. Say you turn on the TV and see a show that has been on for 10 minutes - and you decide to record it. Well Tivo has been buffering the
show since it began - so when you hit record you don't miss the first 10 minutes. On the cable co's dvr it just starts recording from when you hit record -
you don't get the first 10 minutes. There are many other examples like this that when all added up make the Tivo worth *some* premium. And here's where tivo
gets in trouble. Their pricing scheme, upgrade scheme is one big mess. Do you wonder why, if I love Tivo so much I still have a cable co dvr? Its because Tivo wanted
too much money from me to convert from Series 2 to Tivo HD. So now I have both in my home - Tivo and Cable dvr. Cable dvr is not as user friendly. But my wife and I
are slowing learning its quirks. Every month I see the Tivo bill I think about disconnecting to save money. Every month I learn to live with the Cable co dvr a bit more.....

ATI All-In-Wonder did pause.

[WittyName]

Did the pause thing, and you could play back at 10% faster to catch up..

Re:ATI All-In-Wonder did pause.

[icebraining]

That card and all the other TV cards with decent software (as long as the CPU could handle it).

Replay Was First, and Best

[Anonymous Coward]

At that CES, ReplayTV won "Best of Show". Ten years ago Replay was letting people share and stream their recorded shows over the internet, schedule shows via web over internet, and automatically blanking commercials. For all these wonderful abilities Replay was sued into extinction bu the TV/Movie companies. Tivo was always their bitch, and so they let it totter along to give the illusion of choice...

Maybe Tivo's problem is a low perceived value...

[anegg]

Perhaps Tivo is just suffering the effects of a limited market, not any of the other external factors mentioned. I know that I don't have a Tivo because I figure that if I don't have time to watch something when its actually being broadcast, I won't have time to watch it later.

Now, since I also believe that the future of A/V media is all on-demand streaming/downloading, people who know me might think that I haven't thought things through. And maybe I haven't. When everything is on-demand, there won't be any "broadcast schedule." Which would be pretty cool; I could just watch things when I want, without having to a) buy a Tivo, then b) pay for the TV Guide subscription, then c) configure it. But would I actually watch *anything* then? Probably not. Because if its available that freely, and I don't have to do *anything* (not even schedule my own time) to view it, then I probably won't value it very much. And why waste me time watching something I don't value.

So maybe everything won't go to "on-demand." Because if they did, and we all lost the shared experience of viewing a broadcast at the same time, perhaps we would all watch a lot less media. And then how would advertisers convince us to spend our money buying their stuff?

So maybe the difficulty that Tivo is having is just the early signs of the low value people place on watching media for which there is virtually no cost to them, and no value either. Hmmm.

To repeat - ad nauseam

[revlayle]

TiVo looks like a great device, however it always seems to have an unusually large price tag and that damn monthly fee. I know hardly anyone in my city with one, primarily becuase Dish Network, DishTv and our cable provider (Cox Communications) provides DVRs that work with their system for a fairly low lease per month ($10 or less - however, i concede that this does compare to the monthly fee of the TiVo - except I don't have to BUY a TiVo at all). They work well enough for most people.

I suspect Apple sells way more iphones and ipods because: 1) lower price (iphone only when subsidized with a contract) and has more functionality than a TiVo; 2) portable; 3) better marketing; 4) ipod has NO monthly fee (iphone does because it is a mobile phone)

Tivo is simply the best interface

[wandazulu]

We had a Directv-based Tivo and it has been painful to use any other DVR since for one reason alone; the interface. The interface is clear, snappy, and very simple, unlike Comcast's and Directv's other boxes which range from the simply bizarre (press "up" to get to Directv's favorites list?) to the outright awful (Comcast everything, but as one simple example, why does a Comcast DVR with a hard disk inside need to re-download every piece of scheduling data if the unit is accidentally turned off?).

Tivo may have made mistakes, but I am still pining away for the day that Directv offers an HD-compatible DVR with the Tivo software in it. I won't care about the terms, I'll get it; I want to watch what I want to watch without tensing up trying to find them using the horrible interfaces of the other boxes.

Tivo

[raind]

While nice there's nothing on tv that would compel me to spend money on it....for 4.95 you can get a basic Netflix plan.

Some corrections on Tivo vs Cable and DVRs

[doug141]

Tivo's monthly fee of about $10 is NOT saved by re-purposing an old computer into a DVR, because the old computer eats almost that much power every month (assuming 40 watts for a tivo and 200 watts for a computer, running 24/7).

Some people are saying "vs $15 for cable" and confusing people... they may mean $15 per month for a cable company DVR. OR, depending on context, they may also mean BASIC cable, which is sometimes given a different name by the cable company so the cable company can name their $50/month package "Basic," and thus sell it to callers who assume "Basic" means "cheapest." Cable companies are regulated and have to offer a service (they don't have to call it "basic") that is just the broadcast stations and local access for a regulated rate, about $15.

Re:Some corrections on Tivo vs Cable and DVRs

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo is not "energy efficient" compared to a modern PC.

I have MythTV (Linux Ubuntu MythTv) running on an AMD 45W CPU, high efficiency 80Plus power supply, 1W laptop SATA hard disk and have lowered the maximum Ghz speed of the CPU. This does HDTV record and playback, post processing compression to MPEG4, commercial skip processing and has a Web based GUI admin that I am using remotely from my laptop.

The LCD HDTV uses 200W, so "evergy savings" is not exactly the name of the game now is it?

Fortunately, I purchase renewable power through "Bullfrog", and therefore have a feel good about it all.

Sure, I geeked this puppy out, but time marches on, and ease of use improves every release. It has high WAF, and the kids love it.

Re:Some corrections on Tivo vs Cable and DVRs

[evilviper]

the old computer eats almost that much power every month (assuming 40 watts for a tivo and 200 watts for a computer, running 24/7).

My "old computer" eats 60 watts while idle, up to 100 only while very busy.

My "old computer" was a new computer when I bought it for $300USD. Now it's gone 7 years, though my many switches between 3 cable companies, 2 satellite companies, and now, OTA digital HDTV, all for a pittance. My new HDTV tuner and new remote ran all of $50USD. Vastly larger hard drive eventually went in, for all of $100. Video card already did hardware acceleration and had DVI outputs when I bought it. Oh yeah, went through 2 power supplies in that time, for $25 each. How Tivos would you have gone through in that same stretch of time and changing requirements? I'm sure your SD Tivo isn't getting a $50 HDTV upgrade off the shelf...

And in addition to all this, I can trivially edit out commercials, and reencode anything I want to save to 10X smaller (but still high quality video). I regularly SSH between my desktop and my DVR, even running apps like OpenOffice on the DVR, over the network, because it's just less hassle than installing it again... Use my DVR in my work to have an off-site shell account for performing port-scans and similar.

And did I mention it plays all my DVDs, in fact ANY format on ANY media, pictures, MP3s, Oggs, etc? Not to menting RECORDING all of the above onto CDs/DVDs, or transferring onto external USB devices trivially? Routinely used to download all my torrents, since it's going to be on anyhow, saving my desktop PC from the job.

So, I AM saving the $10/mo., plus most the purchase price of the device at least 3 times over, plus getting far more functionality out of it.

Apple TV should be TiVo

[808Lupine]

I always thought Apple should buy TiVo's patents and tech and rebrand the failed AppleTV. Apple has the cash, marketing position, and design gurus to make an amazingly elegant, easy to use device integrated with beautiful TVs and screens, with all the backend apps to add value (iTunes integration, iMovie, etc.), and TiVo has the all the original patents that Apple could afford to defend. And Apple could turn into the big bullies themselves against the cable companies, especially if they can lobby for net neutrality legislation.

Seems like a perfect marriage to me.

Re:Apple TV should be TiVo

[gjt]

I always thought Apple should buy TiVo's patents and tech and rebrand the failed AppleTV. Apple has the cash, marketing position, and design gurus to make an amazingly elegant, easy to use device integrated with beautiful TVs and screens, with all the backend apps to add value (iTunes integration, iMovie, etc.), and TiVo has the all the original patents that Apple could afford to defend. And Apple could turn into the big bullies themselves against the cable companies, especially if they can lobby for net neutrality legislation.

Seems like a perfect marriage to me.

That would be nice. But, unfortunately, Apple seems to perceive live TV as a competitor to the iTunes store's selection of movies and TV shows.

missing the point, are they (again...)

[acroyear]

1 most television sucks, and will continue to suck even if you were to tape or tivo it and watch it later
2 the tv that doesn't suck is on DVD almost before the season is over, or for cable shows, is repeated so often you manage to catch it anyways.
3 HULU - on-demand watching already provided by the networks for at least some shows
4 TV Episode sales/rentals on iTunes approved by the networks for at least some shows
5 you can't take it with you. Your TiVo-taped programs, unlike a videotape, dvd, or something on the ipod, is stuck in the TiVo, and in fact the media producers ("Hollywood") went overboard on keeping the TiVo "crippled" in that way even more than the RIAA attacked the iPod (which is why it is such a pile of suck for your iPod when you get a new computer).

DirecTV is the culprit

[unfortunateson]

The original models of the TiVo used a (cludgy) IR repeater to drive sat and cable boxes, and knew how to work with DirecTV.
The first HD DVRs for DirecTV were TiVo units, and were wonderful (but slow. Then again, the DirecTV boxes they're still leasing aren't much faster at GUI).

Then the two companies feuded, probably not just because TiVo signed a deal to provide cable HD boxes.

HD DirecTiVos still get a decent price on eBay, although they no longer can receive premium channels such as HBO, since D* moved them to a different sattelite frequency band and codec.

Everything points to a new DirecTV TiVo box coming this year (but they said that last year too), but reports are that it'll be a premium over the current DirecTV DVR fee. It'll have to be spectacular to be worth it -- I get most of my entertainment on Netflix streaming through my Blurry player anyway.

H.T.P.C. killed the Tivo Star

[djdevon3]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest a correlation of Windows Media Center's rise vs. Tivo's fall. I wanted to build an HTPC the first time I saw what XPMCE could really do. This was expanded with Vista Media Center (which I built my first HTPC with). Win7 is now a great choice for building your own cheap HTPC. Yes building a dedicated HTPC is more expensive but in the long run you won't be tied to a proprietary console and limited storage (plus a litany of other things). Very similar argument to console gaming vs pc gaming.

Now, you got yer MythTV lovers, Windows Media Center lovers, and so on. Anyone that has their own HTPC loves them far more than a Tivo because they can do 10x more. A comparison to the iPhone (in my opinion) is ludicrous. They aren't even close to the same market. Even my grandma has a cellphone. You think she wants a Tivo when she can't even get the 12:00 to stop blinking on her VCR? Make no mistakes folks, the HTPC is here to stay and will only become a more popular component of the home system.

So let's get this discussion headed where it should have been originally. One of Tivo's fall...and continual fall...due to the HTPC.

Slow tech refresh and weak open access advocacy

[swb]

Disclaimer: I own 3 Tivos; a Series 2 standalone bought in 2002 that's going strong (albeit soon to be nearly obsoleted by Comcast's digital conversion), and two HD Tivos. It will be a sad day when I have to replace them with POS cable products or some Frankenstein

IMHO, what's hurt Tivo has been a couple of things. One is painfully slow technology refresh.

When I bought my Series 2 in 2002, most digital cable channels (HBO, Encore, etc) offered DD 5.1 audio on most or all programs. The Series 2 had no digital audio interface but even by 2002 standards should have been able to handle digital audio. It wasn't until the release of the Series 3 some 3? 4? years later, which required a CableCard (and thus the delay for CableCard) before digital audio was available.

What should have happened is a new unit (Series 2.5?) issued with digital audio capabilities to bridge that gap. HD would have still been an issue, but HD boxes would downcovert and we could have had digital audio. Other hardware items they should have been more aggressive about include external storage and DVD burning. They had a burner model but it was too little, too late.

Tivo also blew it on "open access" advocacy.

They should have made a lot more noise about CableCard and breaking the cable company digital encoding stranglehold. A much more public advocacy that made it plain that cable companies are really only interested in monopolies and bullshit upcharges for throwaway hardware paid for 10x over by rental fees.

PC integration has also been lame and crippled. Tivo 2 Go should have used TivoDesktop to generate burn-ready DVD ISOs and not required third party software or bullshit copy protection.

I still love my Tivos for what they do with elegance, simplicity and reliability, but wholly agree they just can't really get it together.

A cuppa

[JeFurry]

Yes, it's a British term. "A cup of tea" in various local accents becomes shortened into "a cuppa tea". Over decades, this eventually became known as just "a cuppa." So you're right in that there was a next term coming, but it's no longer required, since a "cuppa" is implicitly tea — saying "a cuppa [something else]" would probably cause a mildly confused look followed by a (probably) correct assumption of what you meant. Long live the cuppa. Usually with milk, and sometimes sugar.

TiVo is second class everything

[chrysrobyn]

In 2001, I got my wife a TiVo for our anniversary present. The monthly fee was acceptable. We were two professionals and we had more than enough discretionary income to handle it. I thought it was awesome that the device could talk to our Dish Network satellite decoder over IR. And after setting "thumbs up" and "thumbs down", I really enjoyed the recommended shows when I wanted to watch TV but my wife was too busy to watch the shows we watched together.

That was around the time Enterprise came out, on some network that didn't have a proper affiliate in our area. I called Dish to see if there was a way I could get them to add it, and they refused. Some underpowered antenna 50 miles away claimed they served my zip code. So, I turned to the Internet. I found a web site I could download Enterprise from, and later, I found Limewire. Two years later, I found BitTorrent, and in 2003, the TiVo and Dish subscriptions were cancelled. Star Trek: Enterprise, of all things, forced me to piracy. I had a university ethernet connection from 1995-1999 and I never turned to Napster -- that's got to say something (perhaps about my taste in TV but please forgive me).

I'll admit, it took a few years before I figured out all the automatic feeds for getting BitTorrent shows, but at this point, it works flawlessly.

TiVo only works by the grace of the TV networks. Any pre-emption screws up your show. Sorry. TiVo's monthly fees cost more than any Myth schedule, and when I got my TiVo, the hard drives were practically guaranteed to fail in 3 years, which made the hardware investment pretty tough to understand for anyone with a standalone computer.

TiVo needs to get a deal going with a network. Any of them. Serve commercials and data related to what people watch and how, and make it 100% reliable and legal. In other words, beat Hulu in convenience but follow their lead for everything else. TiVo should pay the same per eyeball fee that any local affiliate charges, and see what they can get for dedicated ads. I bet the service takes off then. I'd go back to legal TV if that happened. At this point, I'm so accustomed to watching TV I downloaded a year before. I only last week found out that Gil Grissom left CSI -- TV shows are so much better when you can watch the same show every night for weeks on end without cliff hangers. You can really get to "know" characters a lot better. I'm hoping to watch all of West Wing this summer.

Underlying problem

[chrisl456]

I think TiVo's underlying problem is that they try to please two very different groups: people who watch TV, and the content producers / cable companies. If they'd just pick one (even if it's not consumers), they'd have a more focused vision and would likely be more successful.

Go around the incumbents...

[ender-]

It seems to me that Tivo's best chances are to go around the incumbent Cable infrastructure completely. For the past half-decade the Cable and Dish companies [and the FCC] have dragged their feet and put obstacle after obstacle in Tivo's path. Scrambled digital channels, terrible Cable Card specs, SDV etc.

I think it's time that Tivo becomes its own Cable company. Except instead of laying tons of physical cable, and making deals with municipalities for local monopolies, Tivo can provide an internet-based TV subscription service. A Tivo IPTV service could be successful I think, if done properly.

Why can't Tivo contract with the TV channels to stream TV signals over the internet with a new Tivo product as the head-end. They'd obviously have to scramble the signals so that only boxes with a valid subscription can view, but a Tivo would make a perfect IPTV head-end box.

They could probably even make arrangements with Google to use their dark fiber for a back-end.

That way, customers can use any Broadband provider they wish, and then subscribe to the TivoTV service. I guess they'd have to have minimum throughput requirements, but I suspect my 15mbit broadband connection could handle an HD channel or two with modern compression technologies. Over time, compression will get better, and this might also be a good push for ISPs to increase available bandwidth to end-users.

Of course if we lose the fight for network neutrality it could be problematic as the cable companies can start throttling 3rd-party IPTV traffic. :(

But for me, I'd be willing to buy a "TivoTV" box, and pay a reasonable subscription fee for TV/DVR service, even if my internet connection could only handle say 1HD stream plus 2 or 3SD streams. Perhaps even having a central "TivoTV" box with the storage and main processing, plus smaller, cheaper extension boxes for the bedrooms that pull video off the main box. AT&T is basically doing it with Uverse. Why can't Tivo do something similar just without the lock-in of requiring you use the same company for connectivity?

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[swb]

That makes a ton of sense, especially the Google tie-in (for bandwidth, expertise, infrastructure, etc).

The downside, though, is how much bandwidth does it take to stream two channels in HD simultaneously?

It would make sense if it was the kind of thing where you got everything offline and the Tivo just downloaded programming as it became available in the background.

But real-time TV watching might be a problem in HD unless each home has 5+MB/sec throughput.

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[Big Boss]

For decent quality 720p with h264 and AC3 audio, about 1.5GB/hr. For MPEG2, we're closer to about 6GB/hr. Live TV streaming needs not only the high speed, but also low-latency. Doable with a good network, but with the public internet?

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[ender-]

It would be more expensive on their back-end but I suppose they could do something like Netflix does where it will adjust the resolution/compression based on the current throughput/latency.

Actually the best option is probably to coordinate with Google and their dark-fiber [as I suggested in my original post]. I'm sure that Google can get the video buffered to various datacenters around the country, and then use those to stream out to the end-users based on which proxy point they have the best connectivity to.

This will probably add a bit of delay to the 'broadcast', but really most TV viewing isn't going to be sensitive to a 10-20 second delay from 'live'.

Or we can become re-familiar with those old RealVideo "Buffering..." messages. :)

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[swb]

If you're referring to bytes/hr and my math is right, that's still 3.5Mbit/sec for h264 which is pretty aggressive for most home broadband with the exception of some of the better served cable modem customer base.

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[hazydave]

H.264 offers 2x-3x the coding efficiency of MPEG-2, when done very, very well. If you're taking a source well rendered to MPEG-2 at 6Mb/s and MPEG-2 (assume SMPTE AC-3 audio for both) down to 1.5GB/hr, you are losing quality.

For broadcast quality (1080/60i or 720/60p), you're still talking 10-12GB/hour for MPEG-2, and no less than 3-4GB/hour for very well rendered H.264. Some of the render-on-the-fly stuff for H.264 is still lacking (eg, the encoding has been rapidly evolving, MPEG-2 pretty much a done deal), so for unit quality, you're more likely to see 5-10GB/hr for AVC at the same resolutions. Of course, cable and satellite companies have no problem compromising quality, and on the internet, they first thing anyone does is cut the source down to 720/24-30p.

As for live streaming, no, latency isn't that important... it's not as if there's enough storage in any video pipeline for crazy latency issues anyway. Now, you're talking about interactive video, that's where the latency becomes a real issue. And there are even ways to trick-play around that, if there's need.

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[hazydave]

ATSC broadcast is 19.4Mb/s in the USA, which is the limit on 1080/60i or 720/60p that's broadcast. Usually, the OTA broadcaster will have an SD aux channel or two.. these are typically 2-3Mb/s. So you might expect 15-17Mb/s in practice, OTA. Going to H.264 should give you the same quality at 6-9Mb/s, depending on the material and the encoder. That's kind of the practical upper bound for broadcast.. Blu-Ray videos are generally much higher bitrate. On the low end, YouTube does 720/24-30p video at 2Mb/s, and Netflix varies from 2.8-3.6Mb/s on their HD (all 720p as well) videos, but they're using the somewhat less efficient SMPTE VC-1 (Windows Media 9) CODEC.

So realistically, streaming two HD channels at broadcast quality over your home broadband? Not happening in most homes, even if the net itself were not the bottleneck. This is why TV providers are not using an IPTV model for, well, any real video.

Re:Go around the incumbents...

[danielsfca2]

One other problem besides net neutrality is we're letting cable companies buy TV networks now. NBC is about to be owned by Comcast, and it's not the first and won't be the last. And regulators see nothing anticompetitive about this. It's sickening.

They had what you actually wanted.

[ProfBooty]

Yep Replay had everything you actually wanted in a DVR, skipping commericals, networking, transmission over the internet, component out etc.

I have an RTV5000 AND RTV5500 still kicking. Hooray for lifetime subscriptions.

Re:They had what you actually wanted.

[Richard Steiner]

I've got a ReplayTV 5040 myself still working with a Digital Adapter via IR Blaster, and even if ReplayTV were to disable their scheduling these days I think you could use WiRNS to replace it. :-)

Oh yeah, and DVArchive rocks, especially when using a version of VLC that recognizes ReplayTV commercial start/stop marking.

Why would they do that?

[ProfBooty]

DirectTV bought replaytv which arguably has a better product than Tivo ever did (web accessible, networking features, transmission over the internet and... COMMERCIAL SKIPPING!)

Re:Why would they do that?

[Darinbob]

DirecTV will not retain the networking features of Replay TV, the same way the removed it from the integrated Tivo.

There is another system

[Quiet_Desperation]

I went to college and worked hard at my career so I wouldn't mind paying a monthly fee for a superior product. :-)

Admittedly, though, your approach might be more efficient.

It's simple business plan

[Anonymous Coward]

It's simple they made the mistake of having a pore business plan. Instead of trying to make revenue from selling hardware and subscript based services they should have been trying to license there IP to the STB OEM's that supply the major cable/sat providers giving them an establish market instead of trying to single handedly trying to break into a controlled market. Tivo and Replay where first to market with a great products but its one that even they all logic said it will ultimately be integrated into TV's and Cable Issue STB's.

In short instead of trying to be Apple they should have tried to be Microsoft.

More iPods than TiVos?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see... your family of four will buy:

• 4 iPods (one for each person)
• 1 TiVo (one for the whole family)

and...

• iPods get replaced every ~2 years
• Moreover, iPods get destroyed, stolen & lost - and then replaced
• Most people would be very irritated if they had to replace the TiVo more than every 4 years

That might be contributing to the iPods greater success. Maybe.

Tautologically time transitioning tivo hype

[jginspace]

And TiVo fans (like myself) tend to love TiVo.

You don't say ...

Tivo Pop-up Ads Make me Hate Tivo

[tristanreid]

I used to be a Tivo owner, but now I use the lesser-quality DVR that comes with my cable box. Why? Partly because of the cost, but mostly because I feel like Tivo is one of the worst offenders I see in terms of popup ads. They manage to route around the popup blocker in Google Toolbar.

If you are literally FORCING someone to look at your ads, I don't want to do business with you. Ever.

-t.

Don't Need it

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking only for my self; I don't have a Tivo because I've no interest in one.

Its the net silly

[Anonymous Coward]

Why bother "timeshifting" broadcasted content when you can download it directly from the internet? Isn't on-demand the best timeshifting capability you could get? Broadcast television is dying because content is all that matters in the end, not networks and commercials.

Sold my TiVo when it became obsolete

[Anonymous Coward]

Poster has it wrong, TiVo has no future. Internet services have made cable, satellite, and TiVo obsolete. TiVo depends on inconvenient scheduled broadcasts to be relevant, and obnoxious commercials to be removed. With internet downloads and streaming, there's no reason to have a TiVo or time-shift device because there's no inconvenience to remove. The DRMed, tightly and remotely-controlled spy TiVo platform was unattractive and now has no reason to exist.

I had a TiVo with DirecTV. It was an improvement over VHS recording. However, there was no DVD burner and no transfer to PCs. It needed a phone line because DirecTV made it so and kept it so. DirecTV cancelled BBC America etc... Meanwhile, more shows became viewable online without copyright issues. DirecTV also made noises about retiring TiVos. Here's what I did:

a) I got rid of our phone landline and saved money
b) I got rid of DirecTV service and saved money
c) I download what I can without copyright issues, and for the rest there's Hulu, Netflix, and simply buying DVDs of shows.
d) I don't have to suffer through obnoxious commercials
e) TiVo can't spy on us anymore
f) We can burn copies to DVD (except Hulu and Netflix, but why would we care to for those?)

TiVo has become irrelevant.

Windows Media Center

[biospud]

Nah, with distros these days, it's no more than a day to get a basic system up, plus another day of noodling to fine tune things... well, assuming

I disagree. MythTV takes about a day to get to the point of doing "something useful". But I am a Tivo fan and I wanted MythTV to be as much like Tivo as possible. That part, getting MythTV to be like TiVo, took me a about a month.

I used a TiVo for seven years until last week. I got about 99.9% uptime with TiVo over that time. I used MythTV from a distro for the past two and a half years. I got about 95% uptime and there are many little hassles compared to Tivo. I also shut down the MythTV last week.

Now I use a new Windows 7 computer with Windows Media Center. I spent about two months comparing several PC based DVR options: Liquid TV, SageTV, BeyondTV, GBPVR, and Windows Media Center. All were a hassle, each about 100 times harder to set up than Tivo. And each only about 3 times easier than MythTV. For a time I was afraid none would work out. But eventually only Media Center was left standing and now it is working rather well.

Media Center is not quite as nice as Tivo, but it has most of the features I wanted. Plus it has one great feature I always wished Tivo would have: 3X fast playback with audio. A wonderful feature.

Re:Windows Media Center

[Abcd1234]

I disagree. MythTV takes about a day to get to the point of doing "something useful". But I am a Tivo fan and I wanted MythTV to be as much like Tivo as possible. That part, getting MythTV to be like TiVo, took me a about a month.

Then buy a TiVo.

This is like people bitching that Ubuntu isn't enough like Windows. If you want a given product, *use that product* rather than wasting time trying to mold another solution to work kinda sorta but not really like your preferred solution.

BTW, I'm very glad you found a solution that works for you. Myth is obviously not for everyone, and there are a lot of excellent competing products out there. But it's simply not true that Myth takes a month to get working. As you said, it takes a day or two, tops, to get a working system up and running.

tivo is simply old news.

[luther349]

tivo was cool for a little wile it did stuff we couldn't do before with a tv. but tivo got old in the digital era. . a pc media center is cheap and can do more without fees. and with most hdtv system able to take a dvi pc input making them large monoters you got everything you need inside one tower or small form box depeding on what you buy. tv for the most part is fading away. its being replaced by the internet and steaming video. and many networks cought on quick to this change and aruldy post everything they show on tv on there websites. yes thers still the networks that will stick to old style tv untill it dies a loud bloddy death like the music indrestry but for the most part tv is largly internet based today.

Re:tivo is simply old news.

[luther349]

well tv in your living room go away no. but it will be more like a netbook then a tv. the samsong led tv is a perfect example of this evolution of tv. it has a basic webbroswer that can do video sites like youtube. and the ability to play video from abught any source and format even portable usb hard drives. sd cards etc. so the tv isnt gooing to die but change past way past the ability a tivo can offer and many new models aruldy have. the samesong led tvs feature and ui isnt perfect but its just a step in the direction tv is going. but can you blame people for shifting to the internet for there media when cable rates keep rising and internet cost keep falling and get faster. man if you rember the mid 90s a company tryed to stream tv on the net and brocasters had a fit even thow it was unedtied video with commercals and they said that idea would never work talk abought being dead wrong.

TIVO isn't dead but its not flourishing either.

[RedTeflon]

I looked into getting a TIVO when I finally sacked up and got satellite TV.
I decided on the $5 a month DVR rental from my satellite company.
True they own it, and I rent it, & they monitor my viewing habits but I dont really care about that
For 60 bucks a month I get to DVR my shows, sure Id love to download them to other sources but its hard to beat the $60 a year value.
And every couple years I upgrade it and get a bigger badder version.
I see my DVR just like broadband internet & my smart phone. Once I have it Im never going back.

Great software, poor hardware selection

[banda]

I reluctantly cancelled my TiVo service last year. Reason: They have no hardware that supports HD and satellite. I hate the Dish Network DVR's software - it's garbage compared to TiVo, but I can't spend the rest of my life looking at 480i.

I check TiVo's hardware offerings every so often - I will be a subscriber again when they support satellite an HD in the same box.

There is a local cable company, but I would sooner eat my own feces than give them a penny.

To divver

[HTH NE1]

But "to TiVo" is seemingly losing favor. And people are actually starting to use the generic "to DVR". If you Google for these terms and look at the number of pages matched, you'll see. "I DVR'ed Heroes," just doesn't sound right - it's that extra syllable.

"I divvered Heroes" has an extra syllable?

Maybe compared to "I taped Heroes" which many people still use when there is no spool of tape involved. Some will say "recorded". But even more still "rewind" when, again, there's no spool of tape being wound.

"He said his name was Abbut."
"Funny little guy with a big hat, drinks Jovian Sunspots? He's a Vicar."
"It's a slang term from old Earth tech, a VCR. They're cyber-organics, living recorders: part machine, part sentient."
"They can record just about anything: sights, sounds, biorhythms, thought patterns."

Some people don't understand value.

[jtownatpunk.net]

As in the value of a quality product. When your Tivo is set up, it Just Fucking Works. There's a lot of value in that. I've had a Tivo since the first generation with lifetime service that cost me around $250. I tried the cable company's box for a while before buying a new Tivo. $800 for the Tivo and a transfer of my lifetime service agreement or $15/month for the rental. You'd think the rental unit would be a no-brainer. But it's not. The cable company's box sucked ass. It regularly lost all guide data so I'd turn on the TV to find out that it hadn't recorded anything in days. It could hold a whopping 12 hours of HD content so 2 football games and a movie would max it out. And it stuttered if I tried to record 2 HD programs while playing back another program.

So, yeah, I could get a rental from the cable company for $15/month but I'd do just as well to toss $15 in the trash every month for all of the value I got out of the deal.

I decided to update my Tivo solution at significant expense ($600 for the Tivo, $200 for the lifetime service transfer, $400 for a 1tb drive) and don't regret it for a second. Because it Just Fucking Worked. And still does, over 3 years later. Heck, it works even better with the second 1tb drive added. The fact that it would take 8 years to "break even" is irrelevant because it wouldn't be "even". Comparing the cable company's DVR to an HD Tivo is like comparing a bicycle to a BMW.

Re:Some people don't understand value.

[jtownatpunk.net]

Screw the assholes who are modding my post as "troll".

TIVO failed because people don't want to rent VCRs

[maillemaker]

Tivo failed because lots of people don't want to rent video recording ability as a service. They especially don't want to rent the service when what they record, and how long the recording lasts can be dictated by others.

If I were to buy a VCR again, it would have to function with no subscription service, and record anything and everything I told it to, and preserve those recordings indefinitely.

Of course nowadays we don't bother recording content off of TV to watch later, we just wait until "later" comes and rent it from Netflix.

Vanity

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't pull a TiVo out of your pocket at a party and say "Look at this cool gadget I spent lot of money on!"

Perhaps...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if they ever decide to put something decent on TV it might start to take off...

For now, I'll stick to Amazon DVD/Bluray orders.

Ads

[CmdrPorno]

They ruined TiVo when they put freakin' ads on it. One of the main selling points of TiVo was the ability to conveniently skip commercials.

Tivo fails because of its business model

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo's complete lack of success in terms of user adoption is simple. Users hate subscription services to a device they don't own. There are little to no barriers to build and ship DVRs and the DirectTV/Comcasts of the world already grab the audience with their implementation.

Tivo's crappy user interface, lack of user requested features (commercial skip) have made Tivo a has been. I'm dumping my TivoXL ASAP because its not a good UI. I paid for a lifetime service and the Tivo still shows me ads in the main UI (this pisses me off). Tivo just SUCKS.

TiVo is wonderful, but cable sucks

[LinuxFreakus]

TiVo is fantastic, I've used other DVR from the cable company, etc and they all suck... they crash, they fail to record properly, the menus suck, the controls suck, TiVo (even a series 1 if you ignore the lack of HD) totally pwns every other DVR I've ever used.

That said, I have five TiVos and they are all sitting out in my garage gathering dust because I grew disgusted with the cable company (poor service, price increases, stupid fees, morons for technicians). Now I have AppleTVs in all my rooms and a central media server which hosts all my content. I can easily purchase/rent and watch virtually any TV show or movie I want anytime and it doesn't even begin to approach the cost of paying $100+ per month for cable packages. It is much better to just pay for what I actually want to watch instead of shelling out over a thousand dollars a year for a bunch of content I never watch.

In short, TiVo is failing mainly because the industry is changing and their product is not in a great position to survive those changes. The days of broadcast are numbered IMO.

What Happened to TiVo

[Whatchamacallit]

Mistakes:

1. Stopped issuing LifeTime Service Option
2. Slow to adapt to HD
3. Very expensive to adapt to HD when it was possible
4. Simply could not cut deals with the CableCo's for some reason... (DirectTV on again off again, etc.)

Fixes:

1. Restarted the LifeTime Service Option
2. Released major improvements in a software upgrade
3. Released cheaper HD capable TiVo's

Welcome to the new century, where I don't watch TV much anymore. I dropped my cable down to the bare minimum just so I can turn on the news if something big happens. I will likely cancel cable entirely in the near future. I watch Internet TV now via Boxee and NetFlix and I purchase some items on iTunes. If I really want 1080p HD content, I buy BluRay discs. Otherwise, the TV's get used by video game consoles.

iTunes needs a couch potato subscription model for TV shows. I want to pay a monthly fee, download any TV show, watch it up to a couple of times and then I really don't care about it any more. I will still buy box sets for shows I really love like BattleStar Galactica, etc. But to pay 2 bucks an episode, can get really expensive really quick. Even 99 cents isn't good enough.

The studios won't do this because it will kill the cable companies! The business model needs to change like it did for the music industry and I believe it will eventually but those networks just don't get it yet. They are content houses but the traditional paid advertising model doesn't work any more. I never buy stuff because I saw it in a commercial! It's like Internet advertising before the IT bubble burst. You could actually make a lot of money on advertising and then suddenly the bottom dropped out. That's because in reality people ignore ads or outright block them. The TiVo let's you fast forward through the ads and frankly if you could skip it entirely you would. Right now the cost of a TV commercial is based on number of viewers and their ages based on time of day. But really all those eyeballs are not really paying attention. Just like the Internet where clicks were measured, the clicking stopped. But there is no way to tell if people are actually watching the ads or not. So all that money is wasted in some ways.

I don't know what's going to happen in the future but until advertising becomes something like what was shown in Minority Report, it's not going to work.... Unless you get some Japanese guys eyeballs transplanted, those ads will likely be something you care about.

Cable lock-in and units are standnalone

[TalShiar00]

There are 2 main reasons I see that more people to not have a Tivo
1) It is competing products, try getting the numbers for people with a DVR. Most people I know have a cable or satellite or U-verse DVR instead. While truely being more expensive int he long run they feel the $24 a month is less expensive than a few hundred for a HD tivo plus the monthly or lifetime service. However they are getting killed because you are locked into using local cable company. HD will only use cable card and you can use a IR transmitter to change the channel on a satellite box for non-HD but the channel changing is painfully slow and it will occasionally miss the channel change and you wont have your show recorded.

2) Their killer app would be to have while house DVR system where by you have a single dual tuner HD tivo to records all shows. Then you would purchase individual client boxes (100-200 price range) that have a small HD, ethernet connection and remote receiver. This way you can call up your recordings on any TV in your house and start the video stream immediately rather than spending hundreds on individual tivos, service agreements, and setting up recordings.

Moxi!

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why I bought a Moxi!

Multi Room Viewing....

Pioneer Tivo DVR-810H

[gizmo_mathboy]

I own the Series 2 Pioneer Tivo DVR-810H and it has a dvd burner.

You will not get this, even from my cold dead hands. The cable company may drive me away from TV because Comcast's new cable box tags EVERYTHING as copy protected so I can't burn to dvd let on use TivoToGo to watch elsewhere (there goes $20 for Tivo's conversion software).

You don't need to buy the subscription but the convenience of SeasonPass and such is worth the monthly subscription price I paid about 6 years ago.

Any other DVR I've tried does not compare to a Tivo.

It is a shame they are a bit pricey up front.

March 1 should be interesting.

Eye Witness Update

[Spykk]

Apple sells more iPod and iPhone products in a single quarter than TiVo has sold in the entire lifetime of the company.

In other news, apples are selling twice as fast as oranges. More on this pointless comparison at 11:00.

Ditto!

[antdude]

Ditto. I never bought it (and ohters) because of the high prices, especially subscriptions. I love VCRs and still use them because of lack of DRM, no required subscription, reliability (mine is ten years old!), etc. Yeah, quality sucks, can't timeshift, etc.

I don't need the TV guide/schedule to schedule. Also, I don't even subscribe to cable or satellite since I do over the air (OTA). I still have yet to find a hardware DVR that can do HD and no subscription. I do not want to do it on a computer either.

Wait -

[Geminii]

People still watch TV?

people like me

[Anonymous Coward]

So either I'm stupid, lazy, or both. But I would rather pay an extra $7/mo on my cable to get their DVR than go buy one.

Should have used the Netflix strategy

[Stuntmonkey]

Tivo has good technology, but got marginalized because they didn't integrate with the wide variety of tuners out there. They needed to somehow negotiate their way onto every device they possibly could. Look at the Netflix streaming service today: It's on Roku boxes, many Blu-Ray players, XBox/PS3/Wii, and now built into many HDTVs. Netflix understands that their relevance is directly tied to how easy and ubiquitous they are, and like YouTube they basically give the technology to anyone who wants to integrate it. Tivo it seems took a more antagonistic approach, which resulted in the cable companies developing their own technologies.

The other thing that Tivo is doing is pricing themselves out of the market. Every other consumer device over the same period of time has fallen significantly in price (HDTVs, DVD players, Blu-Ray players, game consoles), whereas Tivo has gone the other way. The Tivo I bought in ~2001 was much cheaper than the HD Tivo today. Their technology is good, but for me not good enough to justify these prices.

In terms of root cause, it's widely known in the Valley that Tivo has a bad management team. The people I know who worked there do not say good things; basically they don't know what they're trying to do. They accidentally got some great engineers at one point long ago, and are trying to coast on that.

"especially with a seeming lack of competition'

[Anonymous Coward]

I had an UltimateTV from DirecTV. It was better than a standalone TiVo because of the integration. Later I upgraded to a DirecTivo (HR10-250) to get HD support and it was not that impressed with the "official" TiVo UI, although DirecTV apparently crippled it, holding back updates found in standalone units. Today I have whatever the latest HD DVR from DirecTV, it does most everything I want, including letting me watch at HD res on my desktop and laptop.

Tivo tech isn't really that special. Everyone can get it cheaper/bundled from their sat/cable provider. Or you can just use MythTV. What would I want a "real" TiVo?

What TiVo actually did...

[hazydave]

TiVo, and nearly at the same time, Replay, popularized devices designed entirely for time-shifting... call 'em PVR or DVR, same thing. Basically, while a VCR could do this, it was ill suited to it -- serial storage, a maximum of 8hr of recording time if you'll accept the heinous qualify of EP recording on extra long tapes.

This worked fairly well over-the-air or to an analog satellite or cable box.. I still have two TiVos in my house. As a technology, they did some smart things. The user interface was so bloody easy, folks with flashing "12:00" on their VCR might actually manage to use the device (particularly if they got your average 14 year old to help wire it up). They didn't just merge EPG and VCR, they figured out why that's a synergy -- you could "subscribe" to a season of a show, non-specific about the time. And the TiVo would track your viewing habits and auto-record extra stuff.. still one of the best features.

There were two big problem, though. First was the ascendancy of pay TV, Digital, and DRM on video. Anyone can make an ATSC receiver for OTA digital TV, but (in the USA, not everywhere) cable and satellite were both proprietary. So no easy path to an HD TiVo that works as well as SD TiVo did on SD video. TiVo didn't want to add the expense of encoding analog or unprotected HDMI to MPEG or whatever HDD format they wanted, and yet, without access to your cable or satellite bitstream, they couldn't simply save that existing bitstream. There was lots of politics going around to standardized on DRM and cable hardware independently of cable provider, but the cable companies really didn't want this. They ultimately were forced (1996 Telecom Law) to accept what became the somewhat sabotaged CableCARD standard (used on the HD TiVo), but begrudgingly at best (a good lesson in the doublethink of forcing an industry to create the technology they don't want in the first place). And even once it finally materialize, many services made it hard to get one, they screwed around with how it worked, and generally made you feel second class, versus using a cable box directly. And there's no such option for satellite.

But the big thing... the basic PVR idea is not difficult to build into a digital device, particularly if you're already a digital receiver with a bitstream that can be tapped. I was designing an "advanced" set-top box with a German startup company I co-founded (Metabox AG) back in 1998-2000, and we did this. You have a DVB tuner and decoder, at some point there's an MPEG-2 transport stream, which you split to get the channel you're after (there can be up to 32 channels in a single transport stream). So, rather than sending that to the MPEG-2 decoder, you save it on disc. Add some smarts around that, and you get a PVR for the price of a hard disc... much easier than in the analog days, having to do the encoding.

That's really the problem TiVo got hit with... this is just a new feature to add to STBs for cable and satellite. I haven't seen any quite as user-friendly as TiVo, but on the other hand, I'm a computer wizard.. I really don't need all that much hand-holding. My Dish ViP 622 is slightly harder to use than a TiVo, but it seems a little less arduous as well. Now, Dish didn't get this right from the get-go... they inflicted some of history's worst PVRs on their customers before getting it decent. But the ViP 622 is just dandy... 2 sat and 1 OTA channels recording in HD while one HD and one SD can play back. That doesn't suck. Or the fact it can tap HDDs up to 1TB for external storage, offloading of video you need to keep around for awhile.

This was inevitable, once the TV "player" became digital. TiVo got popular, satellite and cable companies used "it's like TiVo" to offer you a "free" device (with 2-year contract) rather than your having to buy one. And they often make it free, too... after all, you're already paying for the EPG. Satellite really had to make these very good, to have any hope of competing with cable on things like on-demand video. Cable in turn added it to com