Slashdot Mirror
Windows vs. Ubuntu — Dell's Verdict
Barence writes "Remember how Dell put up a website declaring Ubuntu was safer than Windows, only to later change its mind? Well, the company has gotten right back into the Windows vs. Ubuntu debate with a highly sophisticated website arguing the pros and cons of each OS. People should choose Windows, argues Dell, if: they are already using Windows, are familiar with Windows, or are new to computers. People should choose Ubuntu if they're interested in open-source programming. Brilliant."
It quite much comes down to that. It would be stupid and bad service not to tell that to users, especially those who like things just to work and want to play games too. Imagine if someone sold you a product that you don't know much about but only how you want it to work, and it wouldn't. Most users would feel the same way when they thought that all their programs and games would work.
I'm a Mac user, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to recommend Ubuntu to someone new to using computers. It really is as simple to use as Windows, and repositories are huge win for usability and security.
If you don't change your mind we'll stop providing you with cheap licenses and Gold Partner status and cut off your MSDN subscription. I worked for a couple of Gold Partners and it's the same everywhere, Microsoft uses it's monopoly status and high prices to force people into compliance.
Ubuntu is good enough for most people especially when pre-installed on a computer. Unless you're just plain stupid you will be able to work with it and do whatever you need to do. Sadly Windows is so ingrained in users that are resistant to change that it's hard to change platforms for a lot of people.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
os=ubuntu;
"Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion." ~General Norman Schwarzkopf
I heart Ubuntu, but I wouldn't have my parents use it.
Ubuntu can be a challenge at times, there are pros and cons to everything, I'm glad they are at least partially bringing it to light.
~Mekkah
I love the way the Windows screen shot shows the control panel as if Windows' strong point is configurability. Contrast that with the Ubuntu screen shot which shows installed games as if Ubuntu's strength is its games.
I am a linux geek. I run linux because it suits my needs and is dependable.
I would love for everyone to run linux, but the reality is that it is not for everyone. I have tried to convert others, but ultimately they end up back in Windows/OSX. There is nothing wrong with that.
For many computers just need to get "Task X" done. If Windows is the easiest way to get that done, then so be it...
With quotes like "You are already using WINDOWS programs (e.g. Microsoft Office, ITunes etc)," it's clear who the target audience is.
Really. It hurts Linux when people log in and ask for MS Word. It is important to be sure your customer is getting what he wants.
The only part that is gonna get flamed is the last bit on Windows Section: "use windows if you are new to using computers". They should have left this bit out of both sides, IMO. Windows is good to newbies because they can get help more easily from friends, but it is not easier to use than Ubuntu. Just the idea of the software center like ubuntu's goes miles ahead for those who are new to computers
-- dnl
I would argue with the "new to using computers" bullet. If you're new to computing, exactly why would it be easier to learn Windows than Ubuntu? Both have their arcane peculiarities and unique paradigms you'd have to get accustomed to.
Hell, if you are totally new to computers and have no interest in learning much of anything about how they work, I'd suggest getting a Mac. Then you need never worry yourself about the internals, it "just works," as they say.
I say this as someone who doesn't use a Mac. Apple built their reputation on being idiot-proof, and as far as I can tell, they live up.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
Now there's an original sentiment. Did you sit up all night coming up with that, or was it just spur-of-the-moment brilliance prompted by an unrelated story?
I set my parents up with an Ubuntu machine. On the desktop are icons for: Solitaire, Google, and Yahoo! Mail. They have not had a problem since I moved them to this setup.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
For most users *any* platform will do. Be it, Windows, Linux or OS X.
Most users will use the computer for Facebook, Twitter, MSN messenger and such. Unless you are a gamer or absolutely need to run a Windows-Only application, ANY OS will be able to get the job done, Windows being the less secure of them for non-techies.
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
BTW, which version of UNR is shown at Dell's site? It deosn't seem like 10.4. I mean, is it UNR right?
-- dnl
I don't know how to link it to Antennagate, but the connection's there, I'm sure.
The CB App. What's your 20?
At least Ubuntu gets mentioned and it's not only the classic "Dell recommends Microsoft Windows operating system".
...we require hundreds of hours of training (supposedly anyway) to operate a motor vehicle but we require nothing to operate a computer? (Yes I know a computer can't usually kill someone when misused but it still can ruin someone's life.)
AFAIK there should be a training requirement for operating anything other than a kiosk-mode system. _Especially_ basic security.
On some level though that's being handled by learning to use computers in the school system so a large amount of this stuff will fall off when the current generation of offspring come to power. (Though you can also argue that since many of them were trained on Windows the 'sins of the past' so to speak will still haunt us.)
As far as the Dell website is concerned it doesn't even mention Macintosh and regardless of if you love or hate them it's still a glaring omission.
For my money though things like Mint Linux (an Ubuntu flavor) are easy enough for my mother to use and would go a long way towards having to deal with service calls 5 hours away when she runs into a problem. I wouldn't just have her dump her Windows cold though - a dual boot would likely be first.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
Is it just me, or did anyone else get the impression that Dell did Ubuntu a disservice by showing it's screenshot as a smaller image.
Seriously, check it out:
http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/windows_or_ubuntu?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs
Ubuntu's image is 288x162. Windows is 271x204. A bit narrower, but a lot taller.
It makes Ubuntu look like the smaller "beginner" or "toy" choice, which is wholly inaccurate IMHO.
Their reasons are valid: if you're tied to existing Windows apps then sure, go with Windows. Otherwise though, Without legacy baggage, Ubuntu competes quite nicely against Windows or MacOS. Heck the only thing I even remotely needed from Windows was iTunes. I've got an iPod Touch, and dang it, it's the only way to sync it (Linux apps can copy over files, but I've not found anything to truly keep a music collection/podcasts synced up like iTunes). Even that will be going away though once I upgrade my cell phone to an Android model in a few months, at which point iTunes is getting ditched for Banshee.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Ubuntu 9 was fine, but it was missing a couple libraries that were dependencies for Fuse 2.8. Not to mention that SMB is broke in 10, the GUI is just awful because it doesn't allow for easy 'run as root'. Want to edit smb.conf, you are SOL unless you go through CLI or create a custom link to your favorite editor. I have no problem going CLI only either, except that in Ubuntu 10 everything has been moved into a slew of *.d directories. As a newbie to 10, where the hell is anything you are looking for? You use the find command and good ol ubuntu leaves out crucial syntax points in their man pages...Often my biggest issue in Ubuntu is not so much that I dont know what I want to do, but rather, I cant find what I want to do. I ahve pretty advanced knowledge of firewalls and routers but WTF do you do when you cannot find the conf file or force it to reload?
For now I think I am going to be sticking with redhat derivatives...seems to be more support there.
If ubuntu wants to win over more windows folk, they really really need to fix that dammed GUI, or at the least work on encouraging the community to be more active. I have 3 separate threads asking for help on either iSCSI, SMB, or NFS. Only got 2 hits and they only posted twice before going MIA. You would think that Ubuntu would be better at supporting communication between windows and Linux.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
The tragedy is that if you try to "Shop for Ubuntu laptops" from the Dell Ubuntu page that the example from the TFA is linked to - every single option is Microsoft Windows!!! There are NO Ubuntu products for sale! You can't even deselect the operating system.
I bought Dell Nseries laptops for my business in the UK 2 years ago when they were on sale at Dell, mostly XPS M1330N and 1525N - we have no upgrade option at all and cannot replace with Dell. Everytime I ring a Dell account manager, they just say "Windows 7" like some sort of demented zombie and they cannot make any guarantees about whether the chipset will work with Linux. They also send us all the "Dell recommends Windows 7" business marketing - we have never bought a Microsoft product from Dell.
Despite that, we have been very happy with the N-series, especially the XPS M1330N laptops. They are still current and really the only replacements are for those dunked in coffee or left on trains etc.
DELL - ARE YOU LISTENING? THIS IS A PISSTAKE.
A $200 - £100 computer (with linux or windows) is the future! Can windows maintain its profits at these margins, if not Linux wins the end.
Just wanted to point out to everyone that there is a handy-dandy animatey feedback link on the page as well. :)
Install Ubuntu *and* Windows. Dual boot or use virtualization software. If you value freedom above most other things, as I do, then use Linux whenever possible, and 'Doze whenever you have to. Otherwise, use either, or both, whichever one best meets your needs at the time.
Nonaggression works!
I'm not sure exactly how Dell's failure to mention a competitor's products on their website is a glaring omission. They can (and do) offer Ubuntu and Windows, so it makes sense to mention those options. OS X is only available from a competing hardware manufacturer; why should they do marketing for them?
The extent of the instructions I give guests is, "This is not Windows, it's Linux, but it works pretty much the same. Here's the Firefox icon up here." Family and friends ranging in age from 10 to 70 have used it with no problems. Those who need to are able to work on business documents that they brought on a USB drive and can print to the inkjet and laser printers on our home office network just fine.
I think I detect a little arm twisting on the part of MS here, but nobody is surprised at that.
When Dell came out with their pre-installed Ubuntu machines a few years back, I bought an E520N the day they became available so as to vote with my wallet that this was a very good idea for Dell.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
If you NEED Windows-only programs like Photoshop, MS Office, AutoCad etc...you MUST use Windows.
If you can use open source programs instead, like Gimp, Open Office, etc...you can use Ubuntu.
This is just more of the predictable Microsoft / OEM bait and switch. This is far from the first time that Microsoft has bought out, threatened, or trampled on OEM's that tried looking towards other products; and it certainly won't be the last.
where's the option for pre-installed dual-boot?
I tried linux distros various times in the past, each time I gave up after a day to a week when drivers and programs wouldn't install, package managers wouldn't work, and I ended up spending more time trying to fix my computer than getting things done.
Yesterday I installed Ubuntu. I can't install the language patch (click on it in Opera, garbage on my screen. right click and save as, now I have it saved but how to install it??) I can't use bittorrent, (can't install wine because I don't know how to install a package handler because of the above problem)
That said, I find Ubintu easier to understand, more intuitive, and friendlier overall than Windows XP. I've used Windows since version 3.11 and never could positively compare Linux to Windows until today. I will now recommend Ubuntu to anyone who asks and I want to thank the linux community for making this OS possible.
tldr: Thank you.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
So why get hung up on the fig leaf DELL is using to justify its deep discounts from MS?
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
This is also the reason why Ubuntu, or Linux, will never become a major player in the consumer OS market.
Way too early to make that call. People are constantly getting more computer savvy, Linux distros more easily accessible for the layman and companies more attuned to people having Linux. Also the problems of switching from Windows to Linux when you're a novice computer user are often overstated; not a huge step to use a web browser or an email client in Linux compared to Windows and let's face it, that's what most people use their computer for.
Oh, pardon me, not a bribe, but a "promotion campaign" from Microsoft.
That said, Ubuntu is not as easy as a Mac.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
One of the 'reasons' Ubuntu (or any Linux) distro won't become a major player in the consumer OS market, is because it is not SOLD in the consumer OS market. Linux will become more of a mainstream desktop/laptop consumer choice (key word, choice) when you can drive down to the 'big box' store and buy a computer pre-loaded with Linux on it. Until then, the majority of people will use windows, not necessarily because it's easier, or better, but because that is what was SOLD to them. For the casual user, Windows == my computer. Period.
You lost 800 GBP worth of pot to some fish? Thats a new way to fish.. get the fish stoned so they get the munchies huh? Brilliant!
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
As long as Open Office defaults to normal menu's instead of a retarded ribbon? I know which one I will keep using.
On his blog, Ken Rockwell decried the lack of serious photographic hobbyists who actually take pictures. Most of them just buy equipment and geek out over it. He referred to photography as just something that, to paraphrase, "guys do on their computers in between porn sessions."
True that.
How many guys go looking for porn from time to time? A *very* high percentage. And does the search for porn lead to the dangerous back alleys of the 'net? Yep. The relatively lower number of viruses and other malware targeted at all flavors of Linux is a *major* selling point.
If I were setting up a computer for someone who even occasionally looks for porn online, I'd choose Ubuntu over Windows in a heartbeat.
Now, seriously, what percentage of the population do you think falls into that "occasionally looks for porn" demographic? Linux should have at least that big a market share.
I think the point about being new to computers actually makes sense if you again think of it from the perspective of "It is important to be sure your customer is getting what he wants" and in a "cover your ass" kind of way, rather than simple ease of use or learning.
Someone new to computers basically has no idea yet what he actually wants to do with that computer, much less what they'll want to run in a year. Even if you pulled a Monty Python-eqsque Spanish Inquisition gig on them and made them tell you in great detail what pact they made with the Devi... err... what they plan to do with that computer, you'd get a very incomplete picture. Even skipping past the fact that non-analysts can be prone to leaving out all details (think of that 200 page spec you extracted from a client, only to learn afterwards that they forgot to tell you everything that spells a completely different program), they don't even know what they _can_ do with a computer or what will look good after they try it once.
E.g., most people will tell you that they only want to browse the web and send email to their kids. If you push hard, they may also mention that they want to store pictures from their digital camera. That's it. You could get a sworn affidavit that that's all they'll _ever_ _possibly_ do with a computer, so help them God, cross their hearts and hope to die... and it would still be false every single time.
You really don't know if they forgot to tell you that they also wanted to try this iTunes thing their kid's been talking about, or if a month from now they suddenly get curious about it. You don't really know if those digital photos will also go onto some site that absolutely needs IE and ActiveX to use, or if they'll try some cutesy online game that absolutely needs IE and ActiveX. (And some would not even think of it as gaming, really, if you asked them explicitly if they're gaming too on that computer.) You don't know if, heck, in a couple of months they decide to play WoW on it. There _is_ an increasing segment of retired seniors in MMOs, because it's relatively cheap and offers some social contact and it all around beats sitting alone and getting bored and depressed.
Yes, you could trick some of those with Wine, but it's not something I'd recommend to someone who is self-confessedly new to computers.
In the end even for them the OS is just a tool to run the programs they want. For someone who doesn't really know what they'll want, Windows _is_ the safest bet. Not because of the learning curve or ease of use of the OS itself, but because just about every task you might have in mind, is available and mostly just works. You may have to pay for it, or some GPL fans would probably say you have to sell your soul to the devil, but nevertheless there is a program out there that does whatever you want done and is more usable by the average newbie than the likes of GIMP.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
A vast majority of the software programs you pick up in Staples, Best Buy, etc are going to be made for Windows. Once hardware gets a bit faster and makes virtualization relatively transparent, this will cease to matter. You'll just optionally buy Windows software support for another $150.
I'm hoping for some badass sandboxing. Imagine automatically launching an entire OS for untrusted operations, like web browsing, or having a few virtual machines running concurrently to provide different levels of access to certain data or hardware. I know some of the features of modern OSs make that a bit redundant, but it's a cool idea nonetheless.
Actualy, it's more like:
"Choose UBUNTU if you do not plan to use Microsoft WINDOWS [, ever, no matter if it is your own computer]."
As in:
"Ubuntu is not compatible with the Windows platform. Given the fact that you needed this website then you'd be so computer iliterate (I mean; you could have Googled it, dumbass!!!), and therefore stupid, that we would like to avoid a lawsuit from a moron who tried to install his ilegal Microsoft Office copy from his baseball buddy, because he needs that for doing *snif* MSXML filled with macro files-work on a 'grief card' in Microft Publisher because his wife died and now he can't do that because you didn't warn this *snif* poor guy, you evil Dell company!"
Empathy for the stupid... makes me kinda brilliant...
Here be signatures
I run Ubuntu with Crossover and MS Office, two versions of IE and various other MS software. Whatever won't run in Crossover will run in VMWare Server.
The Dell article (website) is clearly for those who don't know anything anyway.
Dude, I'm not gettin' a Dell.....ever.
"Lame" - Galaxar
If you look at it functionally, the iTunes app store is little more than a repo, and Linux has repos to beat all. I'm so horribly spoiled by tools like yum that I'm personally very remiss to EVER leave what's available at a click...
Most of good salesmanship in business is in positioning - how you compare your products to others out there can leave a very strong impression as it lets potential users immediately grasp many of the capabilities (and limitations) of your product immediately without them actually having to learn what those capabilities are.
Now that Apple has everybody understanding what a repo is, we should just rename repos to "App Stores" (or whatever Apple hasn't trademarked) so that people immediately get just how easy and capable it is to use. More so, because Linux' "app stores" are open-ended - anybody can add whatever App Repos they want!
The only thing I'd (STRONGLY!) suggest is some way to filter out all the libraries and stuff that only developers care about so that end users can avoid getting confused by 7,000 libraries that they wouldn't understand anyway. My thoughts are that packages need to describe themselves as two-stage categories: EG: Libraries, ProgrammingTools, Applications and divide each of these categories further, EG: Libraries/Graphics, Applications/Office, Applications/Games, etc. with a default of "Applications" showing.
Lastly, building in a SIMPLE payment tool so that applications can be purchased (and licenses tracked) with yum/apt...
Put all this together, and suddenly Linux has an EXCELLENT commercial alternative to the Apple "App Store".
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Consumers should choose Windows if they want a sound system that actually works right. Repeat after me: There is no excuse for latent sound in 2010. When I shoot another player in an online game, I would like to hear the sound in sync with the action, and not 100 ms later.
Weird; I've only played a few games on Ubuntu (e.g. UT99 and Guild Wars) but I haven't noticed anything like that.
The bigger problem with Ubuntu sound is when it doesn't work at all; for example trying to play any kind of sound while there's a Flash plugin running in Firefox. Or xbmc with Ion's HDMI audio, which used to work in 9.10 and kind of works a bit after a lot of reconfiguration in 10.04.
When do you think the right time will be to make the call?
I ask because since I've been coming here various people on Slashdot have been suggesting that widespread acceptance of Linux on the desktop was just around the corner. Like here, in 2003. Certainly before that, at least by a couple of years.
In the 7 years since the link, what progress has Linux made on the desktop? In terms of either overall market share or in closing the delta between it and Windows/OSX?
I've not seen any really convincing arguments. Most of them fall back on some grand conspiracy to keep Linux down, or on people just being too stupid to understand the advantages of Linux. I'm genuinely interested in why, during the worst global economic times any of us will probably ever see, free software has not made great strides.
"Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
Wow, so one of only two reasons to choose Ubuntu is if you don't plan on using Windows? It's either-or, their users hopefully aren't stupid enough to realize that. This puts Ubuntu at a disadvantage since it is portrayed not as an equal choice but as something you use if you don't want to use Y, rather than a product useful on its own merits. Lame
So what you're saying is that we need Boobuntu.
I haven't googled yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
If you aren't a GEEK and think you will want to install 3rd party commercial software like GAMES, then a Mac probably is more appropriate.
A Mac has a lot of the Unix-y advantages of a box with Ubuntu on it but with more commercial software support. You might even find that the over-hyped game that your relatives are going on about has a Mac version.
The problem with Dell's comparison is it doesn't acknowledge the likely possibility that Dell is not for you.
Personally, I don't like MacOS. However, it sucks less than Windows.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I'm surprised they didn't say to choose Ubuntu if you wanted to be compatible with Windows pre-7 and Macs. Windows 7 is pretty much only compatible with Windows 7. Open Office has better compatibility with Office than the latest Office. Wine has better compatibility with old Windows programs in many cases than Windows 7. And Ubuntu has better hardware compatibility than Windows 7.
But Windows 7 is the most compatible with Windows 7. So they've got that right.
Ever typed in "linux laptop" or "ubuntu laptop" in the Dell search box. What comes up for me (on the USA Dell Site) are Windows laptop results. There are no Linux laptops in the results and not even an option for the Linux OS if you take a look at the laptops. You need to use Google to find the Linux laptops on the Dell site.
Note that I'm not affirming your position that Windows7 is easier than a standard Ubuntu install ... but just curious.
... Splashtops, netbook-oriented user interfaces like the Ubuntu Netbook Remix and others, soon even Android and MeeGo based environments.
...
Do you believe that Win7 is easier than, e.g., the HP QuickWeb fast-boot environment, that's based on Splashtop (which is itself based on Linux)? Than the Ubuntu Netbook Remix interface?
I've been very surprised, since buying a laptop for my daughter recently, to see her using QuickWeb almost exclusively. She only boots into Windows7 when she needs a full word processor.
I think these comparisons often ignore that while there's mostly just one Windows "apple"*, there are many Linux "oranges" to compare it to
* Probably a bad metaphor for MS Windows, but you know what I mean
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
I used the repository to install GNomad on my Ubuntu partition. Of course it didn't work so I had to google around to find out I had to edit a file to start it up with sudo so I'd have permission to actually seen my Nomad Zen. (Actually there's another way but I figured if I installed from the respository it'd do the setup correctly.) Kind of annoying and I'm not sure how quick newbies are to googling for it. (But I'm new to Ubuntu as well.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
You and I both know that Ubuntu is a far superior operating system on so many levels. It's more secure, it's way faster, it runs on more platforms, you can modify it entirely to your liking, it comes with 'real' software, it's free and it's evolving 2x per year.
For the average user, however, the reality is that many are petrified of their computers. All they know is that it's really bad to screw up and that they will never figure out how to make them run right if they do. They never open manuals or read help files. That is the reality out there - lets' get used to it.
With that said, Lucid Lynx is, arguably, the most user-friendly operating system I have ever used. Coupled with incredible speed, lighting installation and simple interface, it truly stands out for its polish. There's more: getting apps, for the 'newbie' is just a click, a search and a one-click install. Try doing that with a licenced Microsoft Product. You'll be futzing with licence keys and compatibility issues for hours.
Obviously, Linux Mint and others are very polished too, while also taking a run at combining proprietary software with non-proprietary software.
In short, Dell's right: if you're new to computing, install Ubuntu. If you have legacy MS apps, bend over!!
*** Don't be dull.***
Right, because Joe Average and Jane Mom won't have issues doing what they want to do. How do I get my iTunes? Why doesn't this obscure flash game work? How come I can't install this software I just bought at Fry's? Who do I go to for help, none of my usual friends know much about Linux? Ouch, I just bought an MP3 player and the software won't install on this Linux thingy (yes, you and I know you usually don't need the software - they don't). Hey, why can't I watch these videos, it's complaining about some Silverlight thingy?
The list goes on and on. If you set your non-computer person friend/relative up with Linux you're just asking for even more headaches than you'd get if they used Windows. At least then most of you have the excuse that you don't know shit about Windows and can't help.
The push to move Linux to the Average User's desktop is sheer idiocy. Silly neckbeards, Linux is for nerds (spoken as someone who supports it professionally and has a Linux Asterisk box running at home).
From Dell's site: "You are already using WINDOWS programs (e.g. Microsoft Office, ITunes etc) and want to continue using them" Since when is iTunes a WINDOWS program? Damn, Dell will have the boys in Cupertino on their ass next.
"I reject your reality and substitue my own." ~ Adam Savage, Mythbuster extraordinaire.
Windows, if they want an OS that claims to function, but requires constant attention. Linux, if they want an OS that will function after maybe a little bit of effort.
Windows, if they just want to browse FaceBook or play games. Linux, if they plan to actually accomplish anything.
By the way, Dell... where do we get to make this choice when ordering new hardware from you?
Indeed; if you're using MS Office, then Open Office isn't going to be a problem. There are few people for whom Open Office wouldn't be sufficient for home use. iTunes? As if that's the only way to get music on your computer?
In short: Dell is MS's bitch. One more reason not to get a Dell.
Free Martian Whores!
For me it comes down to iTunes - there isn't a good way to make it work on Linux "out of the box" without futzing with a bunch of stuff beneath the covers. If you've got an iPod, iPhone or iPad (which covers most of the people I know), and you want it to "just work" with your computer the way it's supposed to, then stay away from Linux.
If you have to ask (or take the time to read a Windows vs. Ubuntu sheet) then you probably should be running Windows.
I'm still happy that Dell offers Ubuntu on a few configurations that I know will be tested and supported.
In Ubuntu or Linux Mint using WINE.
I'm confused, mods. I thought I was posting to Slashdot.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Their 'mistake' of not including information on whether you should choose a Dell with an operating system they don't provide? That mistake?
Honestly dude, if you're going to go around cracking-wise about how all mac users are pretentiousdickfaggots, at least try to make it vaguely funny or original.
I use both.
Wine runs Windows software that Windows itself cannot run. I have a generous handful of old favorite Windows 95/98 games that simply will not run in any way, shape, or form in Windows XP or later. Wine handles them without the slightest issues and with very little work (you just need to tell it what operating system to pretend to be for those programs, all covered in the GUI).
On the other hand, my work requires that I have a Windows XP box to remote in. My wife has a Nokia phone. I have an iPod. None of these do well in Linux even with Wine. VirtualBox, 15 minutes, and my old XP CD later, and I've got a work, Nokia, and iTunes-compatible virtual machine available that has remained untouched and unchanged along with all of my data over my last two complete OS upgrades (9.04->9.10 and 9.10->10.04).
But the real beauty is that all the stuff I really need on Windows is sandboxed off to a virtual machine. The remote access software really messes with the Internet connection of the machine it runs on (loads this silly "secure desktop" and locks Internet access away on the "insecure desktop"), except that it's all now a Windows VM and cannot affect my Internet connection in Linux.
iTunes has no access to anything on my actual computer, only to what's on the VM I provide it.
Patch Tuesday is just a day I start up my XP instance, click on the "Express Install" button, and leave it alone for a half hour or so while I'm doing stuff. "Reboot" means that XP goes away for a few minutes. Chances are I'm not doing anything in it at the time anyway, I just keep watching my TV show or whatever while Windows does its reboot happy dance.
So, while I still need Windows, I don't need it to be my primary operating system. In fact, I've found things a whole lot more convenient when I don't. I can run a much greater variety of software (Wine handles the bulk of it, and a VirtualBoxed XP instance handles the rest), it was all incredibly easy to set up, and didn't cost me a dime.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
On the subject of playing STALKER, my experience with wine:
Install game with Steam. Run winecfg, check window setting "Emulate a virtual desktop" and set "Desktop size" to my monitor's resolution. Close winecfg and restart Steam. Now STALKER runs in a fake fullscreen that doesn't have strange refresh rate problems. I never even knew there were problems, in fact; I always run games in the fake desktop because it avoids resolution swapping and lets me play games windowed even when there's not an option in the game itself.
While Windows users were fighting with drivers and hardware problems, the game "just worked" for me in Debian. Isn't it supposed to be the opposite?
Not every game works, but when one does work it usually works very well and tends to work a lot longer than in Windows. If you want t play an old game like Thief or System Shock 2 in Windows, you have problems installing and you have to dig up DLL hacks (google 'Thief DDfix') to make the game not crash when playing. In wine, you set the windows version to Win98 and the installer and game work. If you have multi-core crash problems you can modify the shortcut to run taskset without having to change cpu affinity every time you start the program.
Sound has been an ongoing issue for Linux environments in general. Things have gotten better. And, in fact, with my current Debian desktop and Linux laptop, sound has been pretty much working as I would expect (this weekend I was playing WoW, listening to music, flipping over to another screen to fire up YouTube videos - all without device blocks, audio distortion, or other ugliness from the past). Which is great. Except for the fact that it's 2010 and working sound shouldn't be something I notice. :P
This is a big YMMV. Your hardware is probably the biggest cause of frustration (although I've done an Ubuntu upgrade and had to tweak settings to get my sound working as expected with my docking station, etc.). In the past, I've purchased a good sound card and moved it as I upgraded hardware just so I didn't have to guess at whether in-board sound was going to be supported when I upgraded a MB. I wish that wasn't the situation. But unfortunately, not all hardware manufacturers have proper support for Linux.
I'd take this as a caveat. It's one of the little (and getting smaller) pitfalls that put people off Linux. But it won't be something everyone experiences. Maybe sometime in the real near future, it'll get down to the same level of tech-support white noise that Windows users experience when it comes to these issues (very few people having issues even if it sucks when you end up being one of those people).
It just ain't a comp-u-tor if you can't play you some Crysis on it. Do you really think I built a $1,000 machine just so I could use AutoCad?
I'm quite curious, why?
I presume she's had some sort of experience with the app that's soured her on it; I doubt she just woke up one day with the word "OpenOffice" in her head and decided she would hate it. :)
FWIW, I am quite put off by OOo too, largely because of moribund development, boneheaded design, and an opaque codebase, among other issues. Various bugs have been on the books for over 8 years, and linger still. When I first learned about OOo back in 2002 or so, I was very excited about it -- hey, who wouldn't like a feature-complete, essentially drop-in replacement for MS Office? But the more I used it, the more it became painfully apparent that OpenOffice is *not* feature-complete, and *not* a drop-in replacement for MS Office. Some missing features are even stupidly simple, like broken word/character counts for Asian text in Writer, or absolutely baffling date display and editing formats in Calc. Both are clearly bugs. Both would seem trivial to fix. Both have been on the books for more than half a decade. Both are targeted vaguely at "OOo Later" (i.e., the devs have no clear target for when a fix might be released)...
I've personally given up on ever being able to use OOo professionally (I'm a Japanese translator, so bogus Asian counts are bad, and I deal with dates in spreadsheets a lot, so bogus display/edit formats are bad). Reading your comment here, I'm curious what reasons your wife might have for disliking the software.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
OK. If he could convey a thought without it coming across as a rant, I might take him more seriously. But it's nothing but rants.
*shrug*
Maybe in the Desktop market, if we are talking about the near future.
I'd say Linux has a great chance of becoming the major player as a mobile OS in the near future. (Android is selling millions of devices every month, hundreds of activations per day. And nokia will be replacing Symbian - the most widely used mobile OS - with Maemo in almost all of its phones)
Ugh, I meant to say hundreds of THOUSANDS activations per day - I better check that preview button twice next time ;)
If you don't change your mind we'll stop providing you with cheap licenses and Gold Partner status and cut off your MSDN subscription
Talk like this wastes time.
Walmart carried the flag for OEM Linux in big box retail for the better part of a decade.
It could not solve the problem of marketing Linux to the masses. It could not consistently undercut OEM Windows on price - and in the end it could not justify maintaining a dual inventory and support structure for a product line whose sales barely showed a pulse.
I think its great that a major hardware vender is caring a major desktop distro this has defiantly helped the Linux community grow and is great for the ubuntu lovers (me being one of them I run ubuntu servers they run like champs) but we all know your average home user is still going buy Windows 7.
http://www.thetechnologygeek.org
Ah, 7 years ago, I was a complete Linux noob... but I do remember that majority of mainstream programs weren't available on Linux; download pages always wanted me to specify my Windows-version if even that, not so anymore. In 2003 I didn't have proper drivers for most of my hardware, admittedly just generic stuff like sound/graphics cards, not so anymore. It would've been an absurd idea to walk around a supermarket back then and expect to find a laptop sporting Linux let alone have Linux power home-entertainment systems... It does seem like the userbase has grown enough to force the software/hardware/retail people to take Linux from the back of the store to the front.
Free software has made great strides throughout it's conception, it just doesn't always take the front seat. In the beginning it's just innocuous stuff like libraries, web browsers and web servers (GPL/Linux are not, separately or together, the whole of free software). Then when you've been weened off of IE, the neighbor's kid shows you Linux and tells you it can run circles around Windows on your old hardware with the browser of your choice... who's to say no? Just for the hell of it I'm using a Pentium3 550MHz 384MB 4G harddrive machine with the _latest_ Ubuntu. Having had no problems or unbearable slowdowns, hell it even recognized the mobile broadband modem my Windows-machine shunned, I think the theory does lend to practice.
From my point of view, now is the worst time ever to call it since Linux is finally something I can just pop in and start using. Sure I won't have all the software I could have on Windows, but a) that's life though the situation is getting better e.g. there are ports and better substitutes b) chances are that in 7 years time you won't be able to run them either on the Windows of the future.
If you were a naive end user, I can't even imagine why you would consider Ubuntu. It has come a long way since Red Hat, but it's not even close to Windows. It doesn't have the software that Windows has, or ease of use. As long as you're giving software away for free, it's going to be limited in functionality. Most people aren't willing to work for free and this stuff doesn't develop itself. Although we should get there soon, open source will never get us there.
As a developer, the only reason to use Ubuntu is not having to deal with Microsoft's licensing agreements. From a business perspective, I believe it's well worth the licensing fees to get up and running way quicker. All of the development tools in Ubuntu are atrocious. Codeblocks, JCreator, GDB are atrocious. These software tools are primitive for 10 years ago.
A Linux lover friend of mine was bragging that he built his own machine and installed Ubuntu. He paid $800, and I paid $600 for a pre built machine with Windows 7 already installed and MINE HAD BETTER SPECS. Take into account his time, and what sane person would think he got a better deal??? The final verdict. Don't ever use Ubuntu.
What programs and games? They're even recommending Windows to people who are "new to computers," and there's just no way that makes sense at all.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
A lot of posts are looking at this with huge preconceptions.
Dell literally just said choose Ubuntu unless you plan on using Windows. It positions Ubuntu as the default choice just with a major caveat.
Or a not-so-major caveat. I trialled W7 on a machine I built with spare parts and offered my two flatmates they could use it instead of the incredibly slow XP machine they were sharing. Then the trial ran out but they really didn't want to go back to the old machine. So the conversation went like this:
me: "well... We could try Ubuntu"
them: "what's that?"
me: "free software that will make the computer work, but it's not Windows"
them: "we don't need a Windows, I don't think we ever use it"
me: "Windows is the program that runs from the start, that makes everything work"
them: "doesn't everything work with Ubuntu then?"
me: "well, yes, apart from iTunes and maybe if you plug in your phones or whatever, they'll just work like a USB memory stick, but Facebook and everything will be exactly the same"
them: "well why don't we use that then?"
That's as close to word-for-word as my memory allows. And they find Ubuntu works perfectly for them except for iTunes and when they rotate a photo it doesn't stay rotated (Windows automatically saves it when you do). The Dell page is actually spot-on. Use Ubuntu unless you need to use Windows, or programs that require Windows. It's a major plug.
The only thing that's missing is they put Windows on the left. People tend to assume things on the top and left are more important. Try shopping the page to swap the Windows and Ubuntu positions around and see if the page doesn't suddenly seem like one big plug for Ubuntu. But, you know, one of them has to go on the left and we'd only be moaning about how Dell didn't say using Windows makes you a bad parent, baby Jesus cry, or whatever.
I am a sys admin, and I am running ubuntu. i have set up the laptop to duel boot into windows 7, but I very very rarley find myself booting there (once a month)... Mainly to update the iphone software. I have had very few problems with ubuntu, much less than windows 7 (really struggles with drivers for the graphics card and turns the screen into garbage occasionally), and have never had any problems with SMB... Its just worked for me. \ I installed it on my sisters laptop (who has no interest at all in open source programming, she's a nurse), as we didnt have a windows licence for it, and I let her know that if she wanted to go to windows, we could do that, but we'd have to buy a licence, over a year on, she absolutly loves ubuntu, and now does not like windows GUI at all.... But then there are people who can not cope with the change from windows to linux, and if they were forced to change over ... it would not end well....
So from my experience... dell, you got it wrong.. I understand that the majority of people use windows... but you still got it wrong
If you are an idiot who likes file-chaos and who likes his PC to be slow, dysfunctional, expensive, a botnet-zombie that spreads childporn and you are to afraid to try something else because you are to lazy to get used to something that is different from what you believe to "know" (although the poor state of your PCs proves the opposite) even if using the different things would save more time than getting used to them would take (so actually your laziness makes you work to much *lol*)
Then by all means: USE WINDOWS!
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
h4rm0ny, You're not the first post I've seen like this, where the posters says something like "I'm a Linux user, I use it at work, I use it at home. I have #N number of Linux boxes, I've used #M linux distros, but I really recommend to people who have never used a computer to use Microsoft (tm) products." I don't get it. Is it like cognitive dissonance? How can someone say "I'm an expert in technology A *which* I really like and I'm good at, but I advise friends and family to use technology B, which I'm not an expert on *and* I believe is an *inferior* technology?" I mean you voluntary use Linux and you *sound* like you really like it, so why would advise them to use *any* Microsoft product. If I was paranoid I might say you're a shill, but I'm willing to believe that I'm missing something here and I would like someone to help me out. Why would someone new to the wonderful world of computers be better of using a proprietary product with onerous EULAS, viruses, trojans, malware, etc. rathen than a Freedom platform with none of that nonsense? Is it a matter of distros? Why not tell then to run Ubuntu, or openSuSe, Fedora, etc.? What am I missing?
Interesting. The majority of teeth-gnashing about audio in Ubuntu seems to surround pulseaudio. I have it running on my laptop w/out issue (although I don't game on it). But I don't have it running in my Debian desktop environment.
It looks to me that pulseaudio is an attempt to get to a "just works" situation with Linux (and other environments). It's just a bit rougher than one would like. Hopefully the rough edges will smooth out quickly.
What if I'm already using Windows/am familiar with Windows, but also interested in open-source programming?.
Given that Dell insist that my SOE is broken (despite working on 100s of machines of the same model) or that I'm using their hardware inappropriately ("its not meant for workstation use!") when i report faults, I'd take any of their opinions on software with a few tonnes of salt.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
After I purchased a Dell Mini netbook for my wife a few weeks ago, I can see why 98% of netbooks (or whatever the stat was) now ship with Windows.
While I utterly despise Windows, why the f*ck was Dell shipping the piece of crap that is Ubuntu Netbook Remix or whatever the hell it's called.
It is a piece of utter crap. The first thin I did with her netbook was wipe it out and install a real copy of Ubuntu.
My wife has been using Linux for ~5 years now, and she couldn't stand the crap that Dell pre-installed. Is it any wonder why customers are picking Windows when their other choice is UNR?
UNR turned what could have been a decent netbook experience into something that gave me visions of playing with my first pocket organizer. The interface was utter garbage and counter-intuitive.
It also doesn't help the way Dell made their touchpad. The right and left mouse buttons are built into the touchpad surface--so if you use one finger to move the mouse and another to 'tap', the mouse suddenly zooms across the screen because it thinks you moved your finger.
I purchased a Dell back in ~1997. Crap. I purchased a netbook in 2010. Crap. I'm done with Dell. So much for trying to support a company because they are supporting open source.
Next time I'll buy an HP/Compaq laptop, pay the Microsoft tax, and then put Ubuntu on it.
There's no place like
if my wife and daughters can handle ubuntu, wife 46, daughters 19 and 16; I am sure its ready for the general population. Yes, I am a tech, but handing them each a ubuntu, laptop or net book never made them flinch. Or degrade the manufacturer, in fact they recommended it to their friends and neighbors. The only one who cant run ubuntu in my house is the DOG. Which is good cause she has lots of time to hack to get lots of DOG toys and treats. No hacking for her, passwords are complex here.
...just a fact of life. There are entirely too many people who have one or two proprietary applications which require Windows.
why, during the worst global economic times any of us will probably ever see, free software has not made great strides.
It's a lose-lose situation. Let me break it down...
Bad economic times make people ridiculously conservative. Upgrading to a new version of Windows is at least perceived to be easier and safer than upgrading to Linux. Better yet, don't upgrade -- just keep doing what you're doing, put off spending any money or time at all, or risking spending money or time -- if you install Linux, and it doesn't work out, you then have to switch back to Windows. If you did Linux on your own, and you screw it up and want to go back, you may end up having to pay a Windows tech...
It doesn't matter whether the above is true. It's that it's possibly true, and it's what people think is true. Unfortunately, education here is tricky, because if I want to be honest, I have to admit that yes, all of the above is a real possibility, even though it's easier than ever to set up a dual-boot Linux installation without interfering with Windows.
Now, some people are technologically adventurous, risk-takers in general. These people want the latest and greatest, even if they might have to spend a weekend fixing their computer. But then, if you're a risk-taker, piracy is a great option right now, so the price of Linux doesn't enter into it. And if they're willing to pirate, chances are, they have all sorts of pirated proprietary software, like Photoshop, for which there is no Linux equivalent. The situation essentially reverts to the way it is when people have money.
And that's just the view without the "conspiracy theories," many of which are anything but. Look at that website -- it's not just that page. At the top of every page is the statement: "Windows(R). Life without Walls(TM). Dell recommends Windows 7." Is it entirely unreasonable to assume that Dell isn't placing that blatant advertisement there out of a genuine concern for what's best for the consumer? Most consumers don't install OSes, they buy a new computer with a new OS -- and it's not easy to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed, and even harder to find one where anything close to the actual price of Windows has been deducted from the Linux version. Indeed, Dell not only doesn't offer Ubuntu on all of their models -- hardly any of them, in fact -- and the ones they do are sold from an entirely different section of their website, making comparison much more difficult than it could be to see how much you save, if you save anything at all. (Compare that with simply putting "Ubuntu" as an option next to the various flavors of Windows, with an actual dollar amount difference.)
That isn't to say that free software has made no progress. Firefox is eating into IE's marketshare, which has resulted in a better Web for everyone, helping the move to web-based everything, which makes it easier for people to use Linux or, well, anything -- and Firefox didn't even exist in 2003. The Mobile world is a battle between Symbian, Blackberry, Android, Maemo, and iPhone, and of those, only Blackberry and iPhone are closed. "Open" is a bona-fide buzzword -- Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, and of course, Google, all make a big deal about their contributions to open source and open standards.
It also isn't to say that Linux has made no progress. People know about Ubuntu, and more people are using it all the time. We have companies like Asus taking chances -- sometimes reverting, but every now and then, we see something interesting. Dell is selling Ubuntu, even if they're being dicks about it. And of course, there's always embedded Linux -- Android, Moblin, and others.
Like most of the real world, there isn't one simple, neat answer for why things are the way they are. I'm not even sure there's a simple, neat answer for whether Linux, or Fr
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Recommending that people "new to computers" use Windows is the worst advice imaginable. We've given Microsoft over 20 horrible years, and they have managed to make computing almost boring in that time. It is well past time to hand the torch somewhere else...ANYWHERE else. The last thing we need is another generation who thinks Windows is what it means to "use a computer".
Even in 1990, the power and potential of machines was staggering. And I'm sorry, but Microsoft has done NOTHING with that potential. Software is still overly-expensive, locked-in, ugly, and crashing, and impressively it seems that basic tasks are even slower today than on machines of the 80s. It really wouldn't have taken much effort to bring the world way forward, to make PCs absolutely marvelous devices. Instead of realizing the potential, these incredibly sophisticated machines still have pretty basic uses, and I find that sad.
We need another generation, the people "new to computers", to use something new. Let them tinker without the chains of some stupid monopoly, and build a better machine.
"Microsoft killed my company, I hold a personal grudge. I don't use Microsoft products and neither should you."-JWZ
Opening a document someone sent you from work in Word 2007 and editing it in Word 2007. Where's the ribbon?
Microsoft Office file viewers have worked in Wine since Wine 1.0. Office applications themselves are built from the same code base as the file viewers. What problems did you have installing Word 2007 on Wine, other than somehow obtaining a copy of Word 2007 in the first place?
Of course, in Ubuntu this just isn't a problem because there's no games at all, but that's another issue entirely.
Really? This system runs Tux Racer and Frozen Bubble and a bunch of other games just fine.
Then please allow me to rephrase: Of course, in Ubuntu this just isn't a problem because there's no games at all produced for Ubuntu that are of comparable production values to major-label PC or console games.
There are free alternatives to almost all Windows programs.
What is the Free alternative to each of the following Windows apps?
Though why not install it through the package manager in the first place?
Because not every piece of software ever created is available at no charge from a public repository. For example, some publishers of proprietary software "sell copies", that is, distribute copies for a fee and restrict access to enforce payment. This is a common practice for high-production-value video games.
Because while most non-techno-nerds (e.g. your average users) usually only want to check mail and browse the web, they also have an annoying habit of needing to run Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Photoshop. And their kids want iTunes for their iPods, not to mention their wanting to play StarCraft, Gears, Halo, and a slew of other Windows-only games.
Tell them their brand-spanking-new Linux-based computer can't do so, and they tend to get just a little upset....
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
I recently bought a Dell laptop, they are far better value for money for the Intel i-series chips. I really, really, wanted to support Ubuntu and have Ubuntu installed on the laptop - Dell wouldn't have a bar of it. They seem to only ship Ubuntu on lower spec laptops, which, IMHO, is utterly rubbish.
Actually, come to think about it, they wouldn't even UNINSTALL the anti virus software even if I paid the same price.
It really is a shame that dell had to direct new users towards the windows side, when in actuality labeling Ubuntu as perfect for 'new users' is more accurate. Since they are exactly the people that should be trying Ubuntu. They aren't used to windows already, and likely haven't developed any prejudices towards one piece of software or another, so OpenOffice and CrossoverOffice are just as good as Microsoft Office.
Yup. I've been using computers since the days of Wang systems that required punchcards and were 15-20 feet long. This is the *ONE* thing holding me back from Ubuntu or any other Linux distro ... the fact that there is no one simple app that I can make my iPad, iPod touches work with and sync to. I don't want to struggle with something that should be plug and play. Until then, I choose to stick with OSX.
DaveyJJ
I've been using Avira lately. Seems to work well with less nagging.
Cheers!
:q! Oh crap, not again...
People new to using computers should use Windows.
People used to Windows should continue to use Windows on new computers.
So Dell is effectively saying everyone should use Windows, except if you somehow think of a strong reason not to, or are interested in "open source programming", as if this were impossible on Windows systems? (which invalidates that point, so we're back to "everyone should use Windows, except if they really don't want to")
This is so mind-numbingly dumb, it's offensive!
I wonder how much money is going to exchange hands behind closed doors because of this review, seeing as dell is doing so poorly they need cash infusion, | could see this as being a pay off to help the M$ image....but of course those things are never public....
If you mod me down for saying M$ you will be struck down by a big lightning bearing penguin in the sky!
He kind of ran out of good rants a while ago. Now he just posts something monthly to keep the flame war up in the comments.
If those 20 years were so horrible, why hasn't some other company or operating system overtaken Microsoft and Windows? There is Apple. There is Redhat. There is Canonical and Ubuntu.
Why hasn't someone unseated Microsoft if things have been horrible for 20 years?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
It's much, much easier to find fixes to problems on Ubuntu. FLOSS makes it possible for skilled users to discover how things work; the relative popularity of Ubuntu means that problems and fixes can be found readily online.
The last straw that led me to switch to Linux primarily was trying to fix a problem with a security suite, Kaspersky, that kept disabling my LAN connectivity. I checked the official forums -- there were lots of discussions of the problem. No one knew how to fix it. There were various guesses about fixing it by renaming DLL files to disable some feature, and some guesses about what the configuration options might do, but no one was sure. I never fixed the problem.
My typical experience with technical problems in Microsoft software is that they're usually very easy to fix. When they're not easy to fix, they can't be fixed at all.
With open source software, there's a continous chain, from the original developers of an application, to users with comparable knowledge who can read the source code, to those with enough technical knowledge to go over the documentation and edit the configuration files and write up how-to guides, to the people who know enough to Google the problem, to the raw beginners. With closed-source software, there is a large gap in that chain -- and moreover, software isn't designed with the assumption that the user should be able to modify it, meaning that much that could be clarified is obscured.
I just left a very nice message on the feedback link in Dell's site on the name of the Linux community :). I think we should all do the same and let them know what we think.