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Recycling an Android Phone As a Handheld GPS?
imblum writes "So my dad's antique handheld GPS unit just went toes up and I was considering replacing it for him with an old Android Smartphone. All he really needs it for is hunting and camping (no navigation), so I don't want to pay for cell or data service. I found the program Mobile Atlas Creator to download map files onto the SD card, and an app called Maverick Lite to view them. Now all I need is to decide on an Android phone. I was considering a Samsung Behold II ($100-200 on Craigslist), but thought it would be nice to get some input from the Slashdot community. It seems like I can get a lot more functionality for the money out of an old Android than I could from a big name handheld GPS. Does this plan sound reasonable? Is there anything I'm overlooking?"
Battery life will not be as good as on a real GPS, but should be ok.
I don't know what Android does with the maps. But if the maps are fetched dynamically from the network, your old Android phone is going to need a subscription, and you're SOL when you take a wrong turn and wander off the grid. Been there / been burned by Blackberry.
big name handheld GPS
You're talking about spending $100-200 on an Android phone, and you can get a real dedicated GPS receiver for $90 that requires no effort to set up, no purchase of an additional flash card, has a warranty, etc.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Handheld GPS units probably have much better battery life than an Android. The GPS device is only made to do only one thing, while an Android is a portable computer and uses a lot more juice accordingly.
Installing the maps on a SD card is a good idea, but you should routinely make sure the maps you have are the most recent.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
I just bought a used Magellan explorist 500 ion Amazon for $7. Why bother with hacking an android phone?
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
There's a reason why 'real' GPS units cost more, despite not necessarily having as many fancy 'features' that often end up being unnecessary.
Cell phones rarely have WAAS. Cell phones usually also use the cellular system to receive the phase of the GPS satellite transmission to aid in reception--but--if you don't have any service, the accuracy can get pretty deplorable (well, compared to say my GPSmap 60CSx that usually locks within fourteen to sixteen feet)...the battery life isn't as good, cell phones are horribly made, and the chipsets and antennae are simply much, much, much better in a dedicated unit. Pick up a used GPS--that's a real GPS--and it will be much better suited to hunting and camping rather than looking for the closest Starbucks. Real GPS units have rubber gaskets for a reason.
A lot of phones download satellite positions from time to time to enable them to pick up a signal quicker. You could do this over wifi, but it isn't quite as convenient as having it doing it over the cell phone data connection automatically. Or you could not download it at all and wait a few more minutes every time to get a position.
Get a good Garmin or other hand held GPS. One that can be operated with winter gloves on or such. If he's like my dad, he's not going to want to mess with any other applications or functionality. He wants a device to tell him how to get to the next camp site or hunting spot. Not listen to MP3s. He's also going to want something that is probably water proof, drop proof and has a battery life much longer than that of an old phone.
Garmins are by far the easiest to hack and even allow you to use your own maps. TomTom from what I've heard locks their stuff down hard. Plus Garmin has been around longer in the 'off road' GPS device market.
For yourself, sure, sounds like a fun project. I'm considering an iPod Touch + Bluetooth GPS + Jailbreaking as an in car GPS device. I was looking for an application to make the maps from OSM, but it looks like Mobile Atlas will do that.
GS runs on AA, can get spares & carry them with you. Android will want to be charged at some point, and how will it behave if it can't find a cell site? GSM units will keep transmitting, increasing battery drain. Spend a hundred bucks on a new GPS for him.
As a pretty dedicated hiker and Android user (started with a G1, then a Droid, and now a Droid X), so this is from my experience of both. I'd go one of two ways:
1.) Buy him an actual GPS. Good ones are around $90, have much better battery lives, built in maps instead of querying Google Maps, are a lot more durable, and don't have that neon-bright glow that I'm guessing would be detrimental to hunters (I'm not a hunter, so I have no idea myself).
2.) Buy him a new Android Device. The problem with getting him an old Android device is that they need to query a network to be able to display a map through Google Maps. You could buy a map that doesn't require a network to display off the marketplace, but that just adds on to the cost of ownership. However, a new device would not only get him something that can query a network and display the map, but it would also function as a phone in case of emergencies. The downside is, he'd get stuck with a monthly bill.
Either way, I wouldn't buy him an old Android device.
maybe these (or similar) are available, cheap, used?
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=177&ra=true
I have one that I use on bike and motor scooter. they even make handlebar mounts (ball mounts) for them.
it is a REAL gps unit with antenna and NO need for a-gps or any of that stuff.
touch screen is great, color is great, speed is great. but it IS a very old model, by today's standards.
still, I do think a dedicated satellite antenna-based gps is the way to do.
if I had to COUNT on a gps, it would not be a 'cell phone' version..
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I believe storing map tiles from Google Maps for offline use is against their terms of service. Might be worth looking into, in case the app gets banned from using the API later on.
It seems like I can get a lot more functionality for the money out of an old Android than I could from a big name handheld GPS.
Yeah, no. Certainly not without a data plan.
If he needs it for hunting and camping, then the most important feature he needs is durability. You're not going to get that out of an Android phone. You can usually get a good quality handheld GPS from Garmin or Tomtom for like $125 on sale. This is probably cheapier than the cheapest used Android phone you will find, and it will be shock proof, water resistant, and take AA batteries, so you can carry a spare set in your pocket for safety.
It's a nice idea but you really are ignoring all the most important benefits of a dedicated GPS unit. I highly recommend just shopping around; you'll find a good one on sale.
Hundred bucks? You can get a nokia for like $30 dollars and have GPS on it. I gues you can get a dedicated GPS navigator for less than that.
A GPS device in my experience is much more durable than a smartphone. Smartphones are delicate devices. My GPS has been dropped tons of times, been left in the car in hot weather and cold winter, even sprayed with water on a couple of occasions. It still works. I doubt a smartphone would do that. On the other hand you could use the android for more than just navigation. You could have apps installed that don't need an internet connection, music, videos and what not. Although most new GPS devices do play mp3s.
Think of the screen size too.
If $100 doesn't matter, then get a fucking new one and have GPS AND a decent phone/data jobber. Don't be a check motherfucker! If you buy crap, you get crap. Unless that's what you want, crap. Do you want crap? Then buy a decent phone, motherfucker!
An android phone will have a bigger, more colorful screen and a more open/versatile OS, and it will undoubtedly be easier to load whatever maps you want on it, rather than vendor-approved, possibly expensive ones. Without some sort of additional protection, though, the device will break the first time it gets dropped on a rock or rained on. It'd be more suited to city and car navigation than camping and hunting.
Get him a dedicated GPS device. What are they, under $100 now? They work off satellites and don't require any spotty cellular phone triangulation. Do it. You seriously don't want to be the guy who sent his father out into the woods with sub-par gear. That's how people fucking die.
I live within eyesight of Mt. Hood so I don't take a "quick jaunt in the woods" at face value. Prepare for the worst, pack your gear like it'll be the last trip you ever take.
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Android is what, 22 months old?
Depends on how your dad uses his GPS and what he needs to do with it, but Android smart phones aren't generally designed for rough conditions.
I've got a Garmin eTrex and an Android phone. The Garmin is way more ruggedised than the touch screen smart phone (Motorola Milestone). I don't think the Milestone would cope with pouring rain, snow, getting knocked about in rucsacs, dropped in puddles, sat on, etc, and still function in bad weather at night when I really need to know where I am: it might be life or death. "Smart phones" with a few exceptions are much too flimsy for outdoor use in severe conditions.
A phone is:
1) not going to be as durable or rain resistant
2) not going to have as good battery life (while acting as a GPS)
3) probably not going to allow you to swap out ordinary AA or AAA batteries if you do run out (most phones have dedicated chargers and batteries)
4) probably not going to be as precise
5) probably going to involve more hassle loading maps (most GPS units have basic maps already loaded).
With dedicated GPS units in same price range as the Android phones you are talking about (e.g., mapping GPS units start at $150, and there are other brands, such as Magellan), the question is WHY would you get a phone if a GPS is what your dad needs? Some models even float, such as this $200 model, which would be great for hunting/camping. Check this place out to see the variety available. I'm sure there's an equivalent store in the USA.
If you already have an old phone laying around, it might be worth a try. Otherwise you're probably going to regret paying almost as much for a suboptimal solution.
i concur with the majority who say buying a used GPS on CL is a better solution. That said, I have a G1 sitting in a box and would be curious to know if you succeed in cobbling together a solution using offline maps. If you do please post your solution so I may follow suit.
Did you want driving directions or 3D views like a GPS offers? This may be able to show a blip on a flat map but thats not what I use my GPS for. I use it to find addresses and businesses plus directions and phone numbers.
Airplane mode disables all the wireless including gsm. Battery life will still likely be an issue for hunting, probably can get a few days with occasional checks.
I am not in anyway affiliated with Max Cannon
Dear slashrock,
My gene donor's old wheel finally broke. Sure, I could tell him to buy a new one that would work perfectly but I have some old rocks laying around and was thinking of learning masonry so that I could build him a new one. I have pretty much everything I need, and it'll only cost twice as much as a new wheel. I plan on using rocks. I know its older technology, and not as reliable, nor are they made for wheels (not since bronze finally got out of beta, anyway) but I figure that re-using old technology would be good.
So, what kind of rock should I get? Granite? Sandstone? And which quarry should I get it from? I was thinking that granite would last longer but sandstone would ride nicer and would be easier to lob at a dinosaur in case of attack.
Thanks SlashRock!
Nobodies Prefect
Tidbits for Techs Technology Blog
I was considering a Samsung Behold II
Samsung phones are known to have GPS problems. I can also confirm this first-hand. I don't know whether it's the GPS chip they use in Android phones, or it's a more widespread problem, but you'll have a lot better quality GPS hardware if you go with HTC or Motorola.
solar charger is an option, so are spare lithium batteries.
most cell phones (all android phones) can be put into 'airplane mode' to disable the cell radio, the gps can remain on in this mode, because gps is receive only. wifi and gps can also be turned off to save battery.
buying a used device would make a spare battery even more attractive, as the original battery might not hold a good charge.
Airplane mode disables all the wireless including gsm. Battery life will still likely be an issue for hunting, probably can get a few days with occasional checks.
If he's going out into the wilderness any appreciable distance and doesn't know how to use a map and compass, or how to find the four directions without a compass then he might be a candidate for a Darwin Award except that he's apparently already reproduced.
Seriously. A sharp person can learn basic old-fashioned navigation in about ten or twenty minutes. Do that and a GPS device is just a convenience. Nice to have for sure, but out in the wilderness you need some skills too. A knowledge of common edible plants for the area and the know-how to make basic snares and traps for wild game and makeshift shelters is a good idea too.
If your Dad's taking this thing hunting, camping, and hiking... Buy him something that'll be durable enough to survive the aforementioned hunting, camping, and hiking, in the rain, because Murphy's law says it will rain and the device will get wet. Get him one that uses replaceable batteries like AA alkaline or CR123 lithium so he can carry spares that he can get anywhere (like a convenience store along the interstate). Don't get him a toy. Don't kludge something together. It's not worth the hassle.
Install Miopocket on a dedicated unit. http://www.google.com/search?q=miopocket
You then get mp3, ereader, games, multiple possible gps programs (garmin, miomap,tomtom, etc)
My old IPAQ 6925 has a SIRFIII chipset which is a dedicated GPS chipset. I had to buy TomTom maps but it works without having to use the cellular network. Most of the Android phones are A-GPS. They use the cellular network. That way the carrier can make more money.
wifi and gps can also be turned off to save battery.>
Or you just turn the whole phone off when your not using it. Add in push maps and you just turn it on to get your bearings with your existing maps.
http://www.blackstarnavigation.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
I use Blackstar + Mobi Pocket Reader for paperless one-device geocaching. Its ok for city work but I wouldn't rely on it in the countryside. For one, the phone boosts the power to try and get a cell signal and drains the battery in just a few hours.
Maybe there is a link in there to an Android app for you.
Make sure the whatever app/phone you use does not require cell service to work.
Had this problem with one of my old phones years ago, if it didn't have signal to a tower it was a paper weight.
I don't have a smartphone so I don't know if this is still an issue.
I would second (third, fourth, N+1) getting a dedicated GPS unit if you need one for hiking. Its always better to get something built for the job than a hacked solution, just not as much fun.
Yeah, I'll run right out and learn all that shit. Right. Sorry, but I have better things to do, and that's what cell phones and emergency services are for. Why would I bother wasting time learning that ancient, backwards bullshit when help is just a phone call away? It's 2010, man. Get with it.
The Android phone is a lot more versatile, that is true - it would offer a lot of stuff on WiFi that the GPS unit can't. But, the GPS unit will have better battery life and from the sounds of it your dad is fine without the extra capabilities... I went onto Amazon and typed in "GPS" and found several units between $80 and $120.
I removed my SIM card since I disliked the service provided by the locked network I bought it from. The GPS function was working great when connected to the cell network. I tested the GPS function in the country and was unable to get a GPS signal at all... even from outside my car. I would not advise using that kind of setup and will buy a seperate dedicated GPS unit for my "offroad" backcountry hicking. It makes a great SIP phone and I use it to listen Coast to Coast AM.
Tomorrow is another day...
It's nice to have backup when your phone's battery dies. Or if the thing falls into a creek. Or is eaten by a bear.
Really, it isn't that hard to learn the basics, and it's fun - so why not do it?
Last year while camping in Canada, I tried out the free version of MotionX's GPS app on my iPhone 3G. It worked quite well, so I bought the full version when we went into town for ice and I found some wifi. Earlier this year, a coworker got a few of us into geocaching. With my new iPhone 4, MotionX GPS seems to be just as accurate as the others' Garmins. However, the iPhone seems to be much more impacted by leaf cover while in the woods. When I get right on top of the target in the woods, it gets jumpy and less accurate.
I do use my phone for some fairly precise GPSing. When it gets a good signal, it's as accurate as anything else, but it seems more likely to easily lose that good signal. You may find that the phone doesn't work nearly as well out in the woods as it does giving you directions in the city. If possible, I'd try out the hardware out on a hiking trip (throw your own SIM in for connectivity and use Google Maps or something) before committing to it.
Just something to consider... The phone may work just fine for what he's wanting to do, and all the other apps could be great to have too. Or you may end up with a crappy GPS that barely works combined with a bunch of extra crap he doesn't care about. Just make sure you end up with something that actually works, rather than letting your geekiness build a theoretically awesome device that in reality is useless.
One word: Scottevest. I have a jacket and pants from them which i mostly use as travel clothing and it eats up a notebook, a nook, bose noicecancelling headphones and more small gadgets than you can count. (oh and their performance t-shirts are awesome for exercise)
My N1 is a great phone+toy. It does all sorts of stuff, but it is not something that I would absolutely depend on. Especially not so while out hunting.
An android phonme is purpose built to be a smart phone. It is not optimized to do any of the subtasks that makes up a smartphone to the absolute fullest, and being able to do all sorts of different tasks takes away from doing a single task perfectly well.
How rugged is it? Does the smartphone stand well to falling against exposed rock?
How long do the batteries last? 10s of hours or days?
Can you easily replace the batteries? Most GPS devices take standard AA batteries or the like.
Is it rain/waterproof? Most GPS units are sealed against the elements.
How clear is the display? Most GPS units use reflective backed LCD displays with side lighting. You can view them in direct sunlight.
Point being, if you have not had it hammered into your head yet, GPS units are purpose built to be GPS units that you actually use when hunting, backpacking or whatever. They were developed to handle the unique requirements and do nothing else. Smartphones are phones with additional neat features added.
*** A GPS unit is _NOT_ to be solely depended upon either. A GPS unit is a nicety. It is not a replacement for a map, a compass and the knowledge of how to use them. ***
Get him a Nokia 5800 Xpress Music: http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-XpressMusic-Unlocked-Navigation-Card-U-S/dp/B001SEAOC6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=wireless&qid=1281746871&sr=1-1
May not be fancy, but it is trusty (with the latest firmware); has a true GPS chip inside, and Ovi Maps, which are free, worldwide and CAN BE USED OFF-LINE!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS
Some A-GPS devices cannot fall back to standard GPS, needing cell tower or internet signal as these A-GPS devices won't function with only GPS satellite signal.
Many mobile phones combine A-GPS and other location services including Wi-Fi Positioning System and cell-site triangulation in a hybrid positioning system.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_devices_with_Assisted_GPS
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
It's nice to have backup when your phone's battery dies. Or if the thing falls into a creek. Or is eaten by a bear.
Really, it isn't that hard to learn the basics, and it's fun - so why not do it?
Because he wants to end up on the news under a heading like "Search and Rescue". Well, that's why it would be a Darwin Award. Not only do people fail to think of this on their own, they also resent anyone who suggests that having a backup plan might be a good idea. They mod the original post "troll" and make snarky angry little replies to it. Maybe you'll be down-modded too for recognizing a good idea when you see one.
That kind of idiocy is what Darwin Awards are for. People just love good ideas that are potentially life-saving, until and unless they require 20 minutes of minor effort. So fuck 'em.
I took my Moto Droid to France and Spain this spring for just that purpose. By definition there was no phone network in Europe, it only works with Verizon. I downloaded maps using MapDroid and planned to use it for GPS and email in wi-fi zones. The wi-fi email tool worked ok except the phone has a hard time hanging onto a wi-fi connection. As a GPS it was worthless. I find that if the phone network is disabled, the GPS takes forever to find it's location (sometimes it failed completely). If you are planning to not have a phone network connection, don't bother with this one.
These things would make GREAT data-monitors. The touch screen and the X server would let ya do just about anything remote to a machine without an interface.
I'm actually looking for something like this....
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Clearly the Darwin Effect has not been as thorough as one would hope.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Last week, Tiger Direct had an entry-level garmin for $69.
I bet before the summer's over, we'll see $40 on woot. I think you'll be better off with a dedicated GPS than a re-purposed phone. I guess the big variable is if you can get the maps for free.
Now, if you can get a used Android w/ WiFi and a GPS for $100 or less, than you've got something. I bought a new 8gig iPod Touch 3G (which is actually 2G, whatever) for $100 on woot just to use as a wifi device and media player to throw in my bag and I find it very useful. I wouldn't pay full price for it, but I don't think you have to any more. An Android for the same price would be even more better. I also don't want it to be a phone, because I don't want anyone to be able to get a hold of me anytime. My life ain't like that.
You are welcome on my lawn.
anytime soon in the next 4 years, that or be sold off to somebody.
For Android though get him the app CoPilot for street navigation, it is very easy to use and provides everything mostly.
Ndrive gets lots of good ratings, but no Garmin or TomTom yet
OruxMaps rules them all as it is free and works great for outdoor, in fact thats what it was built for. Very easy to use and you can download maps online defining the area grid you want, you can download Aviation maps, Google terrain/maps/sat, MS Maps, trails/hiking maps, many other types also.
I used it for my 3 day hike Tuluome Meados to Yosemite Valley over the summer.
You may want to buy a standalone because of battery life alone, not to mention better GPS signal but phone is not that awful unless you in mountain range/dense trees. I only lost reception when I was right next to the granite rock with my weak G1.
But if you do decide to save money with the old Android phone than buy him 'EXTRA BATTERIES' off ebay/amazon. I bought one of the real big ones 2850 mAh and about 3 extra ones all for about $25. Not the greatest quality but with GPS and hopefully brightness turned down to the lowest tolerable level for your eyes, you should hopefully get about 6 hours or 8hrs+ for listening to music, 2 hrs for movies.
Also advise to buy him a 'Pelican Case' to protect the phone and hook on somewhere, not only are they manufactured in USA but they are good quality and waterproof.
Why not get an android handheld that is not a phone. E.g., an Archos. There are a slew of these devices coming out. They're also in your price range ($100-200).
hit you really hard with a GPS device?
How many comments does it take to let everyone know...what you KNOW?
If you're dad is somewhere where the phone doesn't get service, he isn't going to get GPS.
Like I've explained in a previous post in much greater detail, the GPS of a Nokia phone (even with its free off-line Ovi vector maps) is almost completely useless without a data connection.
All he really needs it for is hunting and camping (no navigation)
Hunting and camping without navigation?
National Geographic - for one - sells Magellan-compatible topographical maps. Topo! Explorer
Send me a picture of your dad and I will incorporate him into an app and send it to you.
He will be thrilled!
-Android App, Back Seat Driver
Help a free cause.
FTFY
Buy a Garmin GPS, there are cheap ones for ~$100 and they're much better than the programs I've found that are available for phones. They also have WAAS available to them too if you want a bit better accuracy when you're not in the forest (and live in north america).
Added bonus since your dad will be outside with one: they're waterproof for up to 3ft usually and they're actually made for rugged conditions! If you had a surplus phone then your idea would work, but since you don't it's very stupid and it's obvious you've only been using GPS the past few years and not since the early years.
I thought I read somewhere that phones don't tend to implement the full GPS protocol but somehow supplement it with cell tower info. Would all cell phones "with a GPS" work as well as a real GPS receiver out in the bush far from cellular coverage?
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
I recently wrote a rant about smartphone vs dedicated GPS unit comparisong to my blog (no ads) http://code.vn720.com/2010/08/14/dedicated-vs-smartphone-gps/, but I copypaste it here to save you from trouble. :) So here it goes:
... drove me crazy. Dedicated unit gets the route planning done 10x faster.
I've used a lot of smartphone GPS solutions, and two dedicated units. The biggest issue with all smartphone solutions is that you cannot *rely* on them. I've used Navicore/Wayfinder, Nokia Maps and Google Maps on Droid. They make nice demos but seriously, you really want to buy a dedicated GPS unit. I paid recently $130 for a new unit on a sale, and it's far superior to any mobile stuff that is out there.
Just a quick comparison:
+ Dedicated GPS units are more robust. You can rely on them. Smartphone based solutions do crash. You cannot rely on them. That's the most important factor for dumping them for any serious usage. They lose signal without being able to restore it without reboot. Theylose data connection (only prob for Google Maps based navisystems, Nokia Maps is offline). They just stop working. Every smartphone based solution had problems (at least after using them some time, not in "demo sessions"...) and the dedicated units don't (crashes are very rare).
+ Dedicated GPS units have far superior signal strength compared to any smartphone based GPS. Just try it in a parking hall: Dedicated unit will pick a signal no prob, smartphone will not. Smartphone will also lose signal easily when you're driving where dedicated unit is not. Trust me, I've done lots of comparisons running dedicated units and phones side by side.
+ Dedicated units are much faster. Offline maps is the first key requirement where Google Maps based systems fail. I used Google Maps on Droid for couple of months (on T-Mobile) until time wasted restoring data connection, downloading map, getting signal, downloading map again, downloading instructions,
+ Dedicated units have better functionality and usability compared to any smartphone solution. For example, Google Maps does not have "search along route" functionality which is really nice during any road trips.
Still, I find uses for mobile GPS as well, but not as a dedicated GPS replacement but for "fun usage" e.g. during walking tour in a new city. Just don't buy mobile GPS solution and imagine that it's competing in the same league with dedicated units.
If you insist buying a mobile GPS, you can get Nokia 5230 with $160 or something like that. Nokia Ovi Maps can at least use offline maps, unlike Google Maps.
In my case, I'm going back-packing for 5 days; we have paper maps and compasses, but I want to bring my phone along and see how it does. I have a small, portable solar charger that I'm bringing as well. Here's what I've discovered:
First, I'm taking my Nexus One. I have to take the phone with me anyway; I just won't leave it in the car when we hit the trail. With the screen off most of the time, but with the GPS on and a tracking application running, I got about 7 hours of continuous running before the battery hit critical. All wireless was off; theoretically, the only things running during that time were the CPU and the GPS chip. I used the display for maybe 20 minutes during that whole time. I expect that, with some coddling, this amount of time would be serviceable -- and it'd certainly be a fair emergency device.
The Nexus One compass -- the magnetic one -- is way accurate! I walked around a bunch with a Suunto Global magnetic compass, and the Nexus kept up admirably!
I think I tried every free or demo GPS map program in the market, and the one I settled on was OruxMaps. RMaps and Maveric are interesting and have useful features, but OruxMaps turned out to be the easiest to build up maps of my destination with, and it provided all of the basic features that I wanted. It has a built-in map builder which takes a little fiddling to figure out, but is pretty easy to use once you do. I did this all over Wifi (which is going to be faster than cell data, anyway), so no cell plan is required (although a WAP and internet access still is).
The display is the biggest battery drain, obviously. With that on constantly, you're not going to get more than an hour of battery out of it. However, the Nexus is smaller than any GPS with a color screen that I've seen; attach enough external battery pack (through USB cable) to make it as big as your average Garmin, and I think the battery life would be comparable. As others have said, the quickest and easiest thing to do is just buy a dedicated GPS; you'll get less for your money, but if that's all he wants to use it for, I don't think it's worth the extra effort to set an Android device up as a dedicated GPS.
how will it behave if it can't find a cell site? GSM units will keep transmitting, increasing battery drain..
Insightful my ass.
Android has Airplane mode, I use it ALL of the time. It disables the cell radio chip. Most modern roms allow wifi to be turned on during Airplane mode Saves HUGE amount of battery life. Also, I believe that if you operate without a SIM card the radio is automatically powered off.
really? what planet or country are you from?
It has its quirks, like anything. It certainly does the job just fine for me in navigating most places, as well as helping me find gas, or navigate to an unknown town to an unknown address. (sure it doesn't have everything you could hope to search for, but it has a pretty good amount--and the no data connection is the only way i use it)
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Anyone who is going hunting and camping (as the Asker said his dad would be doing) and doesn't know the basics of direction finding and survival in the wild has no business there, at least without a knowledgeable human guide. That said, many experienced hunters, hikers and campers these days carry GPS units for that extra added layer of security, as well as making it easy to map out a path in new territory.
Personally, I'd ditch the idea of buying a cellphone to "repurpose" it as a standalone GPS unit. Not only is this inefficient and potentially expensive, it's not really repurposing at all. Repurposing is finding a new use for something you already own and no longer use, not buying someone else's old gear and wasting your time and money on a half-assed solution.
In this situation, I'd prefer my dad to have a true GPS unit that is weather resistant, has long battery life, and (ideally for a hunter or hiker) topographic maps. A device like that has much more to offer than a used cellphone for perhaps $100 more.
This is one of the areas where the BlackBerry's extreme customization really shines. My Curve 8520 allows me to selectively turn on or off the cell radio, wifi and bluetooth in any combination I desire. It also has a one-click global on/off switch, though it's not called "Airplane Mode". This combined with the UMA feature (allowing seamless switching between wifi and GSM for voice calls, and completely free calls if they originate on wifi) is what keeps me from going to Android.
Android has all that power control stuff, in a widget you can even put on the desktop. The UMA thing I don't know about, I would assume the carrier is supporting that?
Nice to know about the Android OS, thank you.
As far as I know, here in the US the UMA feature is T-Mobile only. From what I've read about it, AT&T considered and rejected it because it would make their "rollover minutes" feature obsolete. Verizon probably wouldn't like it either, as they make a killing off of overages, and besides it only works on GSM networks.
T-mobile USA is actually one of the last carriers in the world to adopt it; several European and Asian carriers have offered it for a while. It's also mainly a BlackBerry thing here, as the only non-BB phone with the feature is the Nokia N73.
Now, if T-Mobile starts offering UMA on an Android unit, I may just be inspired to switch. Of course, given my luck Oracle's lawsuit may force Google to remotely brick my phone by the time I do switch.
Actually, no. I tested my G1, in airplane mode, both on a commercial flight (at FL350) and in a single-engine Cessna (at 2500AGL), and in both cases, I was able to acquire and maintain a steady GPS lock, and even recorded a track in Maverick. The altitude was WAY off - it'd jump from 38,000' to 12,000' in a second, for example - but latitude and longitude both tracked quite well. This is by no means indicative of GPS-equipped cell phones in general, of course. As per battery and charging, there's always a MintyBoost or some such, attached to a small 6V PV cell.
And "old" android? So like a 2 year old phone that is still useful for more then a GPS??? Sure go ahead. While you're at it buy a server for your home PC, a car for a radio and a house to get a drink of water.
That film (didn't read the book) offers two valuable lessons:
1) True happiness can only be found when you share your life with others.
2) Only a complete idjit goes into the woods without a compass and a map.
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
Most people would consider a communications device their "backup". They would not expect to use it unless there was already a problem. Having a secondary backup is not a *bad* plan, but depending on your definition of wilderness it's quite possibly overkill -- if you're a 2 day hike from the nearest highway, a single phone as backup is probably not sufficient. But if you're camping 5 hours from your car, it's probably fine.
Yes there's something you're overlooking.
Mobile phones etc use what is called 'assisted GPS'. (look at wikipedia page for GPS).
They tell the nearest few cell towers their power readings etc and the cell which they are currently connected through then does a calculation and tells the mobile phone cell it's estimated location.
Or else they ask the nearest few cell towers their location (the location of the towers) and then triangulate to calculate their own location.
Either way, without a phone service the phone GPS service won't quite work.
Of course even without a phone service, often the emergency services stuff still works so it's possible that the network will also still provide GPS location info too (as that would be very handy for emergencies too).
Anyway, this is something you should look into.
Just because you have some old equipment doesn't mean it's in your best interest to reuse it. Dump it and get a real GPS.
...as long as you have a pin, a glass of water, and a map.
All cell phones have speakers, speakers contain magenets. You can use the magenet to magentize the pin. Place the pin in water and you have an instant compass. Use the compass and the map to determine where you are and where you need to go. It is recommended that you test rubbing the magnet in different directions to determine how to always make the point of the pin point North (rubbing it one way will cause it to point North, the other way South). http://www.flixya.com/video/129279/Water_%2B_Pin_Compass
Or, you could just get a real GPS that will stand up to the elements and have a longer battery life for a whole lot less money, time, and effort.
I applaud the spirit of wanting to roll your own. And it would be cool as a project for yourself. But you definitely do not want to do this with something that could be relied on when someone gets into trouble or that could put someone in a bad situation. Remember, you're not going to be there to troubleshoot this thing or with a spare battery pack should this thing fail. You're better off getting a dedicated reliable device in this case...
David
I agree with you on the standalone GPS... they have plenty of decent models for around the price OP was talking about.
I disagree with you on everything else. OP never said his father wasn't capable of using a map. Just because he knows how to use a map, though, doesn't mean he wouldn't want a GPS unit for its convenience. Also, think about why you would need a map for hunting... it's not just trying to find your way back where you started. It's keeping track of where you've already been and sticking waypoints in "good spots" and on each (if any) of your tree stands, etc. With a GPS unit, you can set a waypoint at your vehicle and start walking wherever you want. Then when you get to your tree stand, you can set another waypoint... If you go looking around more and find a good spot (maybe you find some animal tracks or scrape marks, etc.) you can mark THAT with a waypoint as well. Doing the equivalent on a map would involve: 1) taking out the map 2) unfolding it 3) figuring out roughly where you are since you know the direction from your compass but don't know how far in that direction you've traveled since the topographical map doesn't necessarily help much if the entire wooded area is flat and homogeneous 4) physically making permanent marks on your now-one-time-use map
With a GPS unit you can both add and remove waypoints with the touch of a button. If your batteries die, then sure, pull out the map and get a compass and figure out roughly where you are based on geography and start walking in the direction of your vehicle. (you don't need a distance measurement for that)
As for the "repurpose" argument, you're poisoning the well with a false definition of "repurpose." Here are six definitions of the word and not a single one requires prior possession of the object. "Taking a thing or a material and using it for a purpose not originally intended" You're taking an object intended to be used for communication (a phone) and using it for navigation instead by adding an application to it. If you ask me, it's ridiculously petty to say that it's not "repurposing."
5 hours by foot, or by broken ankle in a blizzard?
In British Columbia, you are charged a fee for being rescued if you have done something particularly stupid (e.g. ski in an out of bounds area and go over a cliff or get lost, hike in an out of bounds area of a provincial or national park and get hurt or lost, etc). There is continual debate on expanding this policy to more situations where this applies. This kind of policy at least helps cover the cost of those who are too stupid to learn the skills and responsibilities for doing these types of activities... even of it might not entirely prevent them. And the ones who are really stupid ensure they will never trouble us again.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Yes, the cell service assists the GPS to find a signal quicker. That doesn't mean you can't get a GPS signal if you don't have cell service. It will just take a little longer.
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
"Anyone who is going hunting and camping (as the Asker said his dad would be doing) and doesn't know the basics of direction finding and survival in the wild has no business there, at least without a knowledgeable human guide."
Maybe, maybe not - we do not know where he is hunting.
I hunt on a 60 acre tract of land - I can see the highway from several of my stands and even in the places I couldn't I would have to walk in around a 10 acre circle to "get lost". It can be easy to get turned around and come out at a neighbors properties in a few places and that sucks, but reality is that I do not need dirction finding in wilderness to do this. Same thing with camping - I often do it in similar circumstances.
GPS units are still quite useful to me. I go into my stand/blinds around an hour before sunrise and even with a good quality flashlight I can't see far. I used to use orange ribbon or reflective tape but that just made it easy for thieves to find them (I've always found the occasional movie that talks about how stupid hunters are for using them - so stupid they can't even find their stands - I can point you to someone who isn't looking for a stand/blind that is designed to be low visibility during the brightest part of the day well before dawn). Hand held GPS units means I put the stand up, mark the location, and follow that. I find the stand faster than I used too (those bright orange ribbons aren't too bright at night and you have to have the beam of your flashlight hit the reflective tape), enough so that I can get an extra bit of sleep.
I do agree that if going into *real* wilderness that basic skills are vital. One needs to understand how the sun rises/sets, how to walk a straight line (actually hard to do) if in flat country or how to follow ridges/water if in the mountains, and how to read a map and compass and carry both. That GPS makes all that easy but is also a delicate piece of electronics no matter how hardened it is. A compass is MUCH more rugged and the sun and your eyes much more so. Indeed, if we loose the sun or you loose your eyes there isn't much out there is going to save you - best if you just sit and hope someone finds you (which often is the best advice anyway - proper planning and telling others your plan does WAY more than anything else).
A phone works just OK in the best of conditions, heck even the GPS antenna isn't very good and I often find I can't get a signal or location lock when a quality hand held is just fine. If you are in a rural area then it will probably work good enough, mine does. However if you are in a wilderness situation they are worthless. I love my droid - I have access to a decent bass guitar tuner, decent GPS, a decent calculator, a decent web browser, my e-mail, and all sorts of other apps/uses - but in *none* of those cases is it the best device for those jobs. In a few cases it does a good enough job I do not use the special purpose devices much, but they still have their place. For real work or things my life depends on I want to depend on special purpose high quality devices - not something that mostly does the job. I want to do more than probably live and probably keep my job. Hand held GPS have been field tested many years to actually get people home, phones haven't. Unless your dad is mostly hunting in places like I do and having MP3's and the web in my blind can pass the time when there is nothing but the wind blowing is more important than knowing which way is out of the woods then get him a real GPS and even ven then I like my garmin. If you life may depend on it then would you really want it to be on your phone?
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
And this has something to do with a hunting trip......how, exactly?
And, I've found a good solution. There is an app that lets you create and load topo maps for free to your sd card (AlpineQuest) which only requires GPS to work, and numerous apps that let you disable any service (radio, 3g/2g/1g, gps, etc) so that the phone doesn't even look for service. and use a solar charger ($15 for a decent one on amazon) if charge is an issue (also charges with AA batteries). Also would come in handy with an app called Compass that gives you GPS elevation and (obviously) a digital compass. either that, or get a garmin fortrex gps for $107
Hard to tell for sure, but a GPS can be your only lifeline depending on the situation. I don't think I'd send my Dad out with a "joe-mcgee solution" in that situation. (I am not sure where the term "Joe McGee" came from but sorry to Joe)
rm -rf ms/*
4) physically making permanent marks on your now-one-time-use map
One trick for getting arround this is to buy laminated maps. You can write on these with a marker pen and remove the markings with methalated spirit.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Props to our Canuck friends to the north.
Oregon, and to a lesser degree, Washington supplies free rescue to the clueless,
unexperienced and over confident that traverse our lovely stratovolcanoes.
Every year, Expert climbers fall to the siren song of a easy climb, and die trying.
I'm not a voice for any other taxpayer under the shadow of these mountains, but if
we have to pull your dead or broken body off our hill, you should pay.
If your hunting and camping you absolutely DO NOT want to be using a aging recycled Android phone with map software. These gadgets are part fragile designer fashion accessories for meterosexuals and part built-to-a-price planned obsolence. They are not intended for use too far from civilization, or for anything more wild and treacherous than a shirt pocket. Add to that they really don't go more than a day without charge and will run themselves flat trying to find a cell signal.
Your life could depend on your GPS, so it's wise to fork out for something suited to the task.
That said I've used a aging HTC Magic (G2) for exactly this, because I had it, and I didn't really have a need for a full blown GPS unit yet. I tend to stick to a old school paper topographic map.
I use it more for driving, where it can charge of a 12VDC->USB adapter. It works very well in this instance and there is a pre-pay sim with some credit should I need it.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
Dad needs and wants both, doesn't he?
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
BS. I used to use my old N95 as a GPS without any connection at all. It works fine.
Dunno about Nokia, but my old Milestone and my Desire work fine without a data connection. Fixes take a little longer, of course, but nothing unbearable, and nowhere near as bad as many dashboard GPS units...
3.2MPixel camera on a waterproof GPS:
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&ra=true
This is not a comment on the wisdom or otherwise of your suggestion, but of practical value. I have a (rooted) HTC dream and if you go that route, replace the battery with one of the double size 2200 mAh ones you can buy on ebay. Also check sensitivity. As a GPS device, my phone is disappointing, because, for instance, it showed me on the wrong one of two parallel roads while I was trying to navigate with it. Other devices receive a poor signal better. But I can't talk into my Garmin. The phone has that extra advantage of an SOS call, and 'Latitude' which allows geolocation if he breaks his backside in some remote area. Also useful is the software to locate from mobile towers, if you can get it.
you only need an active sim, even one without credit, so you phone knows where it is from the cell towers to speed up the location finding. This is my experience with the 5800 in the UK. Takes a few mins from cold start and then location and route finding are good to go.
Yeah, GPS works fine in airplane mode. However, it uses a lot of power, and I think that also applies when the screen is turned off. His dad would have to return to the home screen and then lock the phone in order to store it, and then both turn it on and re-activate the maps program to use it. That might be a little cumbersome.
All depends on how the GPS works on the particular version of Android you have I think.
--D
Nokia has maps for offline use. Navigated in Estonia without problems.
if you are talking about spending 1-200 bucks on a phone i highly recommend a garmin gpsmap 60 cs or csx. the x having a barometer and compass built in. both can be had by anyone worth his/her internet salt for under 200 bucks. waterproof down to threeish feet so will withstand any drop in a puddle or rain you can throw at it, and i mountain bike a lot and have landed my whole 250 lbs self over the handlebars on mine with and it never lost signal. also as far as signal as soon as you get a phone under any kind of tree canopy its gonna lose signal. i can get my 60csx to lock on from in my house 10 feed away from a window. www.gpsfiledepot.com has free topo maps for most anywhere in the country that install automaticly into the garmin software for easy upload to unit, and the unit has a microsd slot. i can fit detailed road, topo, and lake topo for the whole east coast on a 2 gig card. phone as gps is a joke after using a real purposed unit. and as other posters have said the garmin etrex line is also good, but the doesn't get as good reception under tree canopy. also the gpsmap 60 cs / csx have autorouting capabilitys so they can double as an in car unit as well. no touch screen and only audio is a beep, but it works for me.
Then you have been misleading people.
I use my Nokia N85 when I go walking and it works very well. It doesn't even need a SIM card to be useful, let alone a data connection.
Combined with Trek Buddy and maps downloaded with Mobile Atlas Creator it is a competent alternative to a dedicated GPS unit.
However, no phone is as robust or waterproof as a purpose built device. Battery capacity is also a concern, though this can be alleviated by carrying chargers such as the Nexus Poerboost which can be recharged via USB or use standard AA batteries.
It should also be remembered that a GPS is a navigation aid, and does not negate the need for a map and compass, and the ability to use them.
1) Battery is a major concern. Dedicated GPS units run on AA and you can get those anywhere.
2) The "assisted" GPS in cell phones sucks. Dedicated GPS have good antennas.
More than Battery life:
I bought my Dad a GPS for a present, but he can't use it.
He lives (and goes hunting) in Alaska, and they don't have GPS in most of the state because of how far north it is. He could not see enough satellites
to determine his position.
I was stunned to think that GPS didn't work up there. I had no idea, and neither did my dad.
The phone can be kept in 'airplane mode' this disables all the transmitters (cell, wifi, bluetooth). But GPS is just a receiver, so it will keep working. I know this from personal experience, it increases battery life dramatically, albeit not on a scale obtainable with a standalone GPS unit.
Just don't buy one with an "assisted" GPS chip, such as the Motorola Droid. It requires a data connection to get a position fix, even with a standalone GPS application.
My E71 is incredibly slow to get a lock, and won't do it at all if it's in a pocket. If you're going less than four miles you'll be there before it knows where you are. And that's walking.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't know about androids, but the gps In the iPhone serves only to augment positional data received by cell tower triangulation. I don't think it sees more than one or two satellites at a time. It works like crap if you don't have a signal. That's why the Tom Tom kit comes with it's own external gps receiver.
I greatly prefer my pos $99 gamin gps to my iPhone for road trips. It's not hackable. It has no features. But it always knos where I am.
What about all those dirt cheap Android tablets comming out of China right now? they are under 100 bucks and come with wifi/gps check over at dealextreme for more options. but they might fit your need better.. and give him a nicer bigger screen to use...
"Tiger Direct had an entry-level garmin for $69.... I think you'll be better off with a dedicated GPS than a re-purposed phone. "
Exactly. When I read this " I was considering a Samsung Behold II ($100-200 on Craigslist)" I was starting to doubt the author had even priced GPS units since they're far below $100 now
Since "All he really needs it for is hunting and camping (no navigation)," why not get a device soley created for that purpose like a $75 Garmin eTrex. High sensitivity, waterproof, and up to 17 hours on two AA batteries.
Now if author's dad wanted a Android so he could use GPS and other software I would understand not buying a dedicated GPS, but he made no mention at all of ever using it for anything other than a GPS.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
I think I can consider myself a pro. For 30 years I ran or was navigator on multiweek back country expeditions, about 6 weeks worth a year.
Map and compass is sufficient most of the time. No batteries required.
I have had a few situations that the GPS saved my bacon.
Much of the Canadian Shield has low relief. Hills are glacial till, or gently rounded granite. There are many stretches where the hills are only 30-40 feet tall -- comparable to the scrub pine and spruce.
Many of these hills look very similar -- the glaciers came down and moved in one general direction, so their crests are more or less parallel.
Fortunately the lakes have unique features.
Small windy streams embedded in heavy forest cover are tough. You can't see the hills around you. The stream channel is embedded in peatmoss and willow, and has shifted greatly in the 30 years since the map photography is done. Best you can do without a GPS is track general direction, and use dead reckoning.
One time I was trying to find a portage trail through a 10 year old burn. The fire had flashed through, leaving most of the trunks intact. They fell, and left a 3 foot thick layer of pick-up sticks on the forest floor. Meanwhile the jackpine grew in, so the landscape was covered in 3-12 foot christmas trees on one foot spacing. To see, you had to be up on the pick up sticks. To move you were constantly climbing carefully up and down. (branch stubs were sharp)
It was overcast with not even a bright spot to indicate sun position. No wind. Raining.
There was less than 20 feet of land relief over the entire 2 km span of the portage.
I found that even with a compass I was many degrees off my bearing after even 50 yards.
After that trip, I had a GPS. It lived with my camera in the pelican case most of the time. Sometimes whole trips would go by and it would never come on.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
"Taking a thing or a material and using it for a purpose not originally intended" You're taking an object intended to be used for communication (a phone) and using it for navigation instead by adding an application to it. If you ask me, it's ridiculously petty to say that it's not "repurposing."
Except in this case the Android phone already has GPS built in. Clearly a device with the hardware and software available, and using it, is not repurposing it. You may find it hard to believe, but the engineers put it there to be used for navigation.
I publish Android app's, but can't afford a phone myself. How ironic you might say.
Perhaps its my ignorance, so I will ask here.
Q: What is the cheapest Android phone that I can root and use offline such as this fellow???
CHEERS!
jp
Don't do it. Most phones don't have real GPS capabilities. They need a lot of hand holding from a cellular network to fine tune the location. The only ones I can think of that have real GPS are from traditional GPS companies. Such as the Android phone from Garmin. Be that as it may, a stand along GPS is cheaper, has better battery life and is more rugged.
GPS works fine in Alaska.
You will always get lat/long and UTM data, which can augment a good paper map. What you will probably be missing is an accurate map on the device itself. There aren't a lot of good maps for wilderness Alaska.
-- Posted from my parent's basement
Actually, I'm not sure that one DOES have better things to do than learn essential survival skills before wandering into the wilderness.
L.V.X., brother mouse
He lives (and goes hunting) in Alaska, and they don't have GPS in most of the state because of how far north it is. He could not see enough satellites to determine his position. I was stunned to think that GPS didn't work up there. I had no idea, and neither did my dad.
Nonsense, Alaska isn't far north. Most of it is on the same latitude as Finland, and we have no problems with GPS here. In fact, you can go to the north pole and have your GPS tell you you're at N 90 degrees. I think your dad was probably between too many mountains.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
You will have an easier time loading routes.
Better battery life.
quicker signal lock.
Happier dad.
What are those "better things to do" in the half an hour it takes to learn to use map and compass? Watch kiddie porn? Do chatroulette with your minuscule prick in front of the camera? Jerk off in a pile of your own feces?
I just love how loserboys always have "better things to do with their time". Reality check, turdheads, your time ain't worth a tin dime.
Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
Disagree.
I bought a (used) Nokia 5800 several months back. I use it primarily as a GPS/MP3 player/PDA/Calculator (also as a flashlight). It's pretty much just an emergency phone. I'm only spending $25 a year for air time (at 25 cents a minute), and I certainly don't have any data plan.
The Nokia 5800 GPS doesn't require a data connection. By default, it will use A-GPS, but that's just a configuration setting. Set it to standard GPS mode (Settings->Location->Positioning->Positioning Methods->Integrated GPS), and you're done. Your post goes into great detail about the problem with your E71, but you didn't mention if you'd changed the default from Assisted GPS. If you're still using that setting, the phone will look for cell towers first, and only use the internal GPS when all the cell connections fail. That might explain some of the problems you're reporting. Or, the E71 is different than the 5800.
Either that, or your unit is just a lemon.
For maps, as you mentioned. you can download them on a Mac/PC, and then use either the Nokia OVI Suite software or the Nokia Map Loader software (both free) to download maps from OVI into your phone.
As for battery life, the major drain isn't the GPS, but the display. If you've got a car charger, set the GPS backlight to "always on"; otherwise use the "Optimized" setting.
Of course, without a data plan, the GPS in the phone won't work inside buildings (where it depends on the A-GPS), you won't get traffic reports, and maps will only be as current as the last download you made. There will be to Google Maps support or the like.
A co-worker with and I often compare what the A-GPS in his $50/month iPhone 3G can do versus my four-month-old downloaded maps. Surprisingly, I've been able to do some things he can't; when in areas with poor reception, the "Search Offline" in the Nokia is extremely useful. Of course, he gets live traffic updates, Google street view, live restaurant reviews, and the like that I don't. My Turn-By-Turn display is also better than what he's been able to do (not saying it's not in the iPhone, but he hasn't found it). I also downloaded the (free) "surfer dude" voice, for amusement.
As for using the phone as a GPS versus a dedicated GPS: it's fine for me, but there are some good reasons to prefer a dedicated GPS. For one thing, their maps tend to be a lot more details. My Nokia maps for all of Ontario, Canada, were about 63MB. In contrast, my friend's Garmin was something like 2.5GB for the same area. That's forty times the amount of detail. His GPS also does proper building addresses, where the Nokia maps only estimate street addresses based on the position within the street. That won't matter so much if you're camping or fishing, though.
My 5800 usually gets a lock within 90 seconds of going outdoors when in a car. It has taken up to six minutes on a very cloudy day. Walking, it seems to take longer, but that's more problematic. It won't get a fix if it's in a covered case/pocket/backpack, so you have to be holding the damn thing in your hand for it to work, and I'm rarely interested in holding it in my hand for six minutes while walking for it to get position. It does work, though, when I've stopped to sit down for a few minutes, and let it acquire a signal.
One major weakness for walking, though, is that sunlight readability of the 5800 at least (I don't know about other Nokias) is pathetic, practically nonexistent. Not really a recommendation for a unit when fishing/hiking/hunting. I don't know how other GPSes compare though.
So, to summarize:
- you can use a Nokia phone as a GPS
- you don't need a data plan
- it will have the benefit of being an emergency 911 phone, even without a data or voice plan
- battery life will be inferior to a dedicated GPS
- it's not as accurate as a dedicated GPS
- sunlight readability is a concern
So really, it's a judgment call as to whether it's a suitable replacement for a standalone GPS. For me, it is. For others, it won't be.
And don't even think about sticking around to ask the bear for a lift once he's eaten your phone. More than likely, he will want to eat something else to get that bitter silicon taste out of his mouth.
:-P
Joking aside, I live in Kansas, where wilderness is still abundant. The Great Plains are beautiful territory to explore, and excellent hunting grounds, but you're rarely more than a few hours from a township or a ranch house. Most of the states land is farmer owned, and the state is sprinkled with hundreds of said townships.
And if you're looking for some relatively untouched country, check out the Flint Hills of eastern Kansas. They're comprised of gentle rolling hills, and you may even get to see your future hamburger.
My blood hurts...
Howdy, neighbor! :)
I live in Colorado, but I've never been to Kansas. Somehow, whenever I want to drive someplace, I can pick either the mountains on the west or the big flatness on the east, and guess what I end up picking...
It's definitely on my list of places to visit, though.
Thanks, you've just confirmed that I'm not crazy. From the experience of others, it seems like this is something that's limited solely to the E71, and not to the other newer Nokia phones. Plus, this would also explain why Nokia was having such a hard time getting us that totally free version of Ovi maps (while it seemed, it had provided that specific update at least six months earlier to almost every other model except ours).
If someone knows what to look for in the specs that might designate the difference in off-line GPS capabilities between the E71 and other Nokia smartphones, please let me know (assuming the problem is hardware-related). The marketing terms used to describe the E71 certainly don't help. The Nokia E71 has always featured its offline maps/navigation as one of its key features (even when they were still making you pay for that service). And by the way, I have an unlocked American Nokia E71-2, it should match the European E71-1 in terms of specs, but it's heavier, more expensive, and has more/better hardware than the AT&T E71x.
Believe me, I've tried with four different sim cards (all active and even paid for) in the three different countries: the US, France, and the UK (with a sim from UK Vodaphone).
I've tried it in the US, France, and the UK (within the space of two months). I'm currently living in the US. You're not saying which Nokia model you're using. And you're posting this anonymously, which makes follow-ups really difficult. Like I've said in the other thread I was mentioning, I have a Nokia E71 (E71-2 to be precise). Plus, it seems someone else with an E71 has had the same experience I did. Which one do you have by any chance? I'm willing to bet it's not the E71, but some other Nokia model. It seems other people are having much better offline results with other Nokia smartphones.
Then you have been misleading people.
Yes, it looks like I have. I shouldn't have generalized it to all Nokia phones, but I seem to be at least partly right in my assumption that it's not just my phone, it's all the Nokia E71 phones at least (since someone else with the same E71 model on slashdot just confirmed the same problem with theirs too, and no one else with a E71 has contradicted my offline gps experience yet, even thought several Nokia phone users with other different Nokia models have).
you didn't mention if you'd changed the default from Assisted GPS. If you're still using that setting, the phone will look for cell towers first, and only use the internal GPS when all the cell connections fail. That might explain some of the problems you're reporting.
I totally agree. I've changed all those settings, trying each possible permutation, even rebooting my phone each time after each change. And the results were the same (not that I expect you to believe me fully, I'm also a developer, and myself I don't believe what I can't verify -- especially where it comes to user-error and the inability for human beings to admit that they might have made a mistake and/or might have misconfigured something).
With the feedback I've gotten thus far, one confirming a similar problem on his E71, and a number contradicting my experience on other Nokia smartphone models. I'm beginning to think that this problem is only limited to the E71, and not other Nokia models. I'm glad this is the case. Nokia is a good company. Free offline navigation is one of its key differentiators (since Nokia owns its own vector maps, and Google doesn't). And the competition between the two different styles of GPS Navigation, between those two giants, is leading to some very interesting innovations on both sides.
Thanks for the two additional data points on Android.
Fixes take a little longer, of course, but nothing unbearable,
That would be good to measure, both measuring the initial fix (which is always the longest) and the subsequent fixes (which should be much shorter). For walking or bicycling, having slow GPS may be ok assuming it's not too slow, but for driving, having slow GPS could potentially mean that you'd miss your turns. On my E71, even for walking slowly it wasn't good (but apparently, aside from one guy who confirms a similar problem on his E71, all the other Nokia users of other Nokia models seem to have it working correctly and fast enough).
I'm also assuming that your Android phones had their own magnetic compass and accelerators, which should help as well (in addition to the PRL data, the locations of the towers, that most phones have access too offline or OTA if needed).
The remaining issue on Android would be to have good free offline navigation software (I'm sure the Market has some good paid versions, but I don't know of any free/lite versions that would be usable, open street maps is currently working on one that's capable of doing navigation, but I don't know when that one will be ready, and currently their app can only show your current location on an offline map. The offline open streets map app on Android is not indexed/searchable yet, it can't do routes/turn-by-turn directions yet either, it may be able to serve you in case you're really lost in an emergency use, but I personally don't see oneself being able to use it regularly until they do their new version)
Thanks for your feedback. I'm now assuming it's limited to the E71 at least, since one can also confirm the same issue on his E71, but everyone else has confirmed the opposite on their other Nokia Smartphones.
This is incorrect.
The GPS constellation is arranged so this should be impossible unless:
Although none of the satellites are in a direct polar orbit (this avoids occasional "bunching" of satellites, a problem encountered by a forerunner to GPS called "Transit".), the constellation is divided into six orbital planes at varying inclinations. There is nowhere on the surface of the Earth where fewer than four satellites should be visible at any one time.
It is true that the lack of a direct polar plane means that in polar regions the satellites will sit lower on the horizon than in regions that are closer to the equator (They'll never be directly overhead in Alaska). But if the device is capable, and it's being used properly, you WILL be able to use it in Alaska or anywhere.
Read up in it if you're skeptical:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fjolles/gps.htm
http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/orbits.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
Touch everywhere, even when inappropriate.
Android is software, not hardware, as we all know. Whereas dedicated GPS units can be robust, that they can be better at finding satellites is true, but not necessarily so. Some Android phones are more robust than others, and nothing is stopping the creation of Android hardware every bit as weather proof as a dedicated GPS. And some dedicated GPSs are neither robust nor weather resistant.
The very low cost Navdroyd is not perfect but it has real promise as an offline (free worldwide stored maps) turn by turn GPS solution. I use it frequently. http://www.navdroyd.com/ Some annoying bugs but, I think, best of breed, if you're offline, and in a car. There are numerous free and other low cost geocaching and other GPS solutions for Android, With and without maps.
Satellite reception is HARDWARE not software and is now done with commodity dedicated chips found in phones as well as in dedicated GPS units. Some dedicated GPS units have useless aerials. My HTC Desire has no problem finding its position with or without connection to the mobile phone network and I have tested this again. On the other hand, my Lowrance 600C dedicated GPS with an EXTERNAL aerial sometimes takes forever and needs to be rebooted.
In short, I think a lot of the advice above seems to be a little partisan.
Paul Beardsell
Once the GPS on Android devices (at least on the phones I've used... mainly Milestone and Desire in this respect) has a fix, it's never "slow" when in use. Lagging GPS causing you to miss turns sounds more like a broken phone, to be honest... or maybe it was just too slow for the navigation app?
They do mostly have a compass and accelerometers, but I'm not entirely sure they're used in most navigation programs - most seem to simply use the direction the device is moving in as a directional indicator, similar to older GPS units before the advent of cheap accelerometers... Google's services seem to work the compass in there, though, and Maps works solely with the compass (hold the phone the wrong way and it'll show you walking backwards).
And you're right, of course - there are no decent offline navigation apps that don't cost a lot of money (a fortune as Android apps go). :(
Something others are hinting at, but not really saying is GPS signal sensitivity. Phones are lowsy. Modern GPSes are pretty good. Sure, you can navigate (if you have the software) using your phone. But the GPS reception is not good. It can easily be off a few hundred meters. For example, we were navigating using my phone's GPS and driving on a freeway. Every minute or so, the phone would start saying: "After 300 meters, turn left" and "Observe speedlimit (50)" when we were driving on the 130km/h freeway... It would suddenly think we were driving in the village next to the freeway.
Inside the car, i.e. not directly touching the window, it would stop working completely.
A modern GPS-only device, my gps logger, was inside the car all the way, and logged points along the way, never more than a few meters off the center of the road.... It will often continue to work if you move inside a building.
So... Modern GPS chipsets for GPS-only devices are very very good, and even work in situations where you're used to not having GPS reception. The GPS in an older phone will first of all not have a modern GPS chipset, but it will also not have the antenna built-in optimally. It works acceptably in good conditions, but not excellent.
Maps for the E72, which is basically the same phone, came out a long time before - I reckon there wasn't a technical problem (leastwise, one that could be solved by software) but they were trying to push people to upgrade. Shell out another few hundred a few months for what's basically an E71 SP2? Our survey said ughhhh urrrr.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
not that I expect you to believe me fully, I'm also a developer, and myself I don't believe what I can't verify
Why wouldn't I believe you? I'm a developer too (not in the cell phone or GPS arena, though). I thought you were over generalizing from a single data point, but I don't doubt what you were reporting. I just thought your blanket criticisms of all Nokias as unacceptable deserved a counterpoint.
As I said, I've got a 5800, you've got an E71, and we both know how much the "but they're exactly the same" argument means. Hell, I wouldn't be doubt you if 98% of the E71 users had opposite experiences; unless you know everybody's firmware revision, install applications, and configuration settings, everything's possible.
Free offline navigation is one of its key differentiators
Agreed. I replaced my old phone (a 5130) because with my poor eyesight, I wanted a larger display and higher resolution. At the time, I was also considering getting a GPS for my car, so when I checked out phones, I figured I'd see if the 5800's internal GPS was good enough. It was and is.
It's really a shame; Nokia (like Palm) has some really nice hardware, but doesn't leverage it properly. For all the buzz around Android and the iPhone, most people (in North America, at least) aren't even aware that Nokia's in the smart phone business.
That being said, the definition of fine is not very good. My phone does not seem to use cell towers to get an initial lock at all, so the GPS takes a while to get an initial lock but afterwards is fine and this is true whether or not I have the GSM/3G service on or not.
Bottles.
You know that food is darn near the bottom of list right? Water is way more important since most everyone can survive at least a week or two without food. It won't be pleasant but it can be done. Whether heat or shelter comes next depends an awful lot on what the current weather is. If it is darn cold then heat would be more important. If it is raining you can most likely get by without heat if you have shelter depending on the local temperature. If you have those 3 things then food can be a while.
Note that E71 processor runs much slower than the E72 or the other modern Nokia smartphones. The slower processor was to extend battery life but it is my impression that some apps have issues with this such as the earlier nav applications.
Hey, I modded you up in some non-troll posts with my last three modpoints. (I don't want to be metamoderated to where I lose my modpoints.) Should be back to positive karma.