Slashdot Mirror
AMD Hates Laptop Stickers As Much As You Do
pickens writes "David Pogue writes in the NY Times that when you buy a new Windows PC, it comes festooned with stickers on the palm rests: one for Windows, one for Skype, one for Intel, one for the laptop company, maybe an Energy Star sticker and so on. 'It's like buying a new, luxury car — and discovering that it comes with non-removable bumper stickers that promote the motor oil, the floor mat maker, the windshield-fluid company and the pine tree air freshener you have no intention of ever using,' writes Pogue. But the worst thing is that when you peel them off, they shred, leaving adhesive crud behind. 'When you've just spent big bucks on a laptop, should you really be obligated to spend the first 20 minutes trying to dissolve away the sticker goop with WD40?' But AMD has a solution. Starting next year, AMD will switch to new stickers that peel off easily, leaving no residue; after that, it's considering eliminating the sticker program altogether."
Baby oil works better.
Free Martian Whores!
us mac users have never had this problem.
I like them
A bottle of rubbing alcohol costs 99 cents. Lasts for years. A tiny dab on a microfiber cloth and that sticky residue is history. Takes about 30 seconds. Leaves your laptop looking nice and bare.
I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
Laser etched logos on the laptop. That why there's no label, no glue crud, and you won't have to spend 20 mins taking it off! :D
...the fun of carefully placing the wrap-around stickers on floppy disks. As for removing sticker crud from a new laptop? I would use a Dremel.
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
I don't know; I haven't bought a new laptop for at least 3 years, but I happily and easily peeled off my windows xp and intel core duo stickers that came with it.
It sounds like new laptops have even more stickers though.
I got an Asus G71 a couple months ago and had no problem with the residue, maybe it's the coating on the laptop, but they peeled right off and left nothing.
Try to remove that huge apple that says "I overpay my hardware" with WD40...
but what about the other dozen stickers on the laptop?
It makes sense, but aren't the ones who add the stickers the manufacturers? Also, I assumed the stickers were there by the request of the component manufacturers, how can they be so easily "eliminated"?
Yet Another Tech Blog
(but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
Never mind the fact that AMD will be the source of confusion for "normal" folks in the not-too-distant future. Yay for having Intel and AMD stickers on the same system!
Note: yes, I'm aware that most nerds won't be affected by this...but it will certainly confuse some normal folk, I guarantee it.
Living With a Nerd
Goo Gone works amazingly well, on even the most ridiculously adhesive residue I've encountered... and it's cheap.
They have them on desktops too, even some monitors have obtrusive logos. One of the things that Apple got right with their computer products.
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
Sweet! But too bad I've been using Intel for the past 5 years and until AMD surpasses Intel I'll have to stick with the adhesive. If that time has already come and AMD / ATI is better than Intel / NVIDIA, please let me know, I haven't payed attention to these things this year.
I guess when you've been beaten down by an industry that reduces cost so drastically that cases are now just thin plastic husks with advertising splattered across it you might think you're spending 'big bucks' on a laptop.
However, you can spend actual 'big bucks' and get a macbook with a metal case and no stickers (well, it does come with two nice stickers. they just aren't affixed to the laptop)
To me this isn't much of a problem. I just leave the stickers there until they start to come off and then I peel them off and wipe the wrist rest with a tissue. It's a one minute task I have to deal with every 3 years or whatever length of time it takes me to buy a new laptop.
If AMD thinks it's necessary to reformulate sticker glue then fine...I guess. It's not going to be part of my buying decision on my next laptop though.
... it's probably calculated into their cost / profit-margin.
From all of the above comments, I see that people are FINE with stickers, they just don't know how to take them off and they complain about the glue. They don't feel "forced" (as TFA suggests). I actually keep the stickers for as long as possible (until they get dirty) because it gives me the feeling of "new" :)
Yes, it's sarcasm. Deal with it!
Makes me feel like a NASCAR driver. Vrooom...vroooom!
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
My MacBook had nothing of the like. It just didn't.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Wow great! So I can buy a shiny new laptop and not have to spend the first twenty minutes of its life removing the ugly mess of stickers that the manufacturer seems obliged to festoon upon its creation? Or no, I just have one fewer to remove because AMD is just one company (or two, I suppose, depending on the motherboard chipset and graphics subsystem). So all that would be left for many is that ugly "Windows" sticker...
Wonder if AMD will do anything about that? Sure would be nice to be able to buy a shiny new laptop and not have to spend the first hours of its new life formatting and loading an operating system that doesn't suck.
Ah, who am I kidding? It could come loaded with the latest and greatest uber-Ubuntu and I'd still reload it just because it's not partitioned the way I want it...
This is one place where apple really shines. You buy a new machine, it comes with no stickers on it. It looks really sleek. No stickers, nice clean lines, really helps the machine look nice. I don't know why none of the PC makers can do this. Make a machine that is esthetically pleasing, and don't mess it up with stickers. Also, does anybody find it odd how they related it to cars? When you buy a car, it has the manufacturer's logo, possibly a hood ornament, the type of car (sunbird, tempo, Ranger), the model of the car (SX,ZX,whatever). Also you get the dealership slapping their name on it too. Often the dealer will not only put their name on the body of the car, but also around the license plate. It's basically a billboard for the manufacturer and the dealership. I kind of equate it to buying a $50 t-shirt with some designer name printed across the front. Basically you're a walking billboard. I would love to be able to buy a car with no markings at all on it.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Don't just remove the stickers, add another one adverstising a product designed to remove the sticker goo. AMD recommends Goo Gone for sticker residue. It's a new revenue source!
I thought stickers on computers where like the stickers on cars, the more you have, the faster you go?
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
That's why I buy Apple, I hate branding so much that I am happy to report it came out of the package without stickers marking my allegiance to one company or another. It also comes with this cool light on the back in a funny shape that's not really useful, but I'm sure I'll figure it out its purpose someday. It's really cool, you guys should try it.
Qxe4
Are people really buying laptops that often that this becomes a significant time-suck? The last laptop I bought, I bought 8 or 9 years ago - and I still use it. I basically just let the stickers fall off on their own; over time they lost their hold and were lost to time.
Unfortunately the same applied to the rubber feet underneath the laptop; that was something that should have been affixed with a stronger adhesive. I'm still trying to find replacements for those little buggers...
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
How about all those logos before a video game starts? First we have the developer logo, then the publisher logl, then the graphics engine logo followed by the physics game logo, and then some legaleese. And then maybe a cutscene kicks into gear. I timed one video game (Bad Company 2, I think) and it was just over sixty seconds before I could even interact with the menu. I gotta give props to Fallout 3. Insert game. Press start. Alas, that's an exception.
They wouldn't include them at all, ever. period.
For those of you who prefer completely natural cleaners, d-limonene (orange oil) works wonders. Goo Gone is limonene diluted with a (cheaper) petroleum solvent.
The only downside for pure citrus orange oil is that your laptop may smell like oranges for days.
Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.
Right now my bamboo plant on my file cabinet is running an Intel Core i5 and Windows 7 based on the stickers.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
I don't know anyone who has complained about this. My HP has two stickers, nVidia and Intel. My old E6400 had Intel and Vista Compatible. My current machine, M11x, doesn't have any.
And I've never had someone lament to me "Man, I wish my laptop didn't have stickers. They suck!" I guess it depends on the survey question.
The only thing i hate worse than taking off those stickers is leaving them on.
My in-laws' just leave them on and it drives me nuts. I'm also the kind of guy who pretty much refuses to wear shirts and jackets with prominent logos. I'm sure you can see how mild anti-corporate sentiments plus a tendency towards some mild OCD-esque behaviors might come to a head on that point.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Has anyone asked why the stickers are there in the first place? Do they have any utilitarian or aesthetic purpose? Is it perhaps to make the hardware as loathsome and ugly as the Windows OS under the hood? It is really obnoxious and they should stop this practice immediately.
http://www.acetonestudio.com
I wish all of the TV networks would follow this example. I don't need the network logo in the corner of my show for the entire hour. Even if they threw it up there once or twice an episode it would be tolerable. Some of the channels aren't satisfied with just a watermark either, and go for full color and sometimes animated logos.
And news channels: I'm not reading your scroll bars and I doubt anyone else does either. Stop making your news channels look like web pages. FFS when there a major breaking story do you think people might want to see the f'ing video?
In a world filled with advertisements and spam, it's nice to see AMD get a clue.
Remove the bloatware too!
The only downside for pure citrus orange oil is that your laptop may smell like oranges for days.
That's a downside?
Why not just get rid of them if they are so hated? It is like ad bugs and snipes on TV. They are hated but the producers keep putting them out.
I wouldn't mind a single technical information summary sticker on the underside of the laptop. You know, where the manufacturer typically puts a sticker with serial number, model number, etc.? Something which is sort of the computer equivalent of the 'nutrition facts' box on food packaging, which included info about:
* CPU make/model/revision/speed/number of cores.
* Amount of RAM originally installed
* List of built-in devices (wifi chip, ethernet chip, audio chip, GPU, memory card reader chip, etc)
Only thing is, I think putting all that info on a sticker, in text large enough to read, would lead to a giant sticker, which might interfere with things like removable batteries, removable access panels (e.g. the panel you normally remove to access the memory slots, etc), cooling vents, removable drives, etc, which are all usually accessed on the bottom of the laptop.
Vodka works great for stickers and band-aids and...
It makes a certain black man get confused and think that there's a kid in trouble.
Perhaps the most annoying sticker placement I have ever encountered is on the mating surface of copper plumbing fittings. Makes a 10 second cleaning job into a five minute ordeal. Any other sad or funny stories?
When I remove those stickers I use the sticker itself to remove the extra adhesive. Simply reapply the sticker glue on glue over and over and it will remove it all and leave no trace.
I have a few friends with laptops and the stickers are literally the ONLY way they can tell what kind of computer it is. Other than who makes it (because you can't remove the Dell or Acer or whatever logo) they have zero idea how much RAM, what kind of processor, how big hard drive etc. it has except for the stickers the manufacturer puts there. Its so much easier asking idiots to "Read the stickers" then it is to get them to even right-click on the Computer button in Windows and go to Properties.
I wish I had a lawn.
I peel off other stickers than the most hated ones, Intel and Windows. Even though first thing I do with my laptops is to install some Linux distribution on them.
...on the inside of the toilet bowl lid.
Downside?
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Easy off stickers next year, and maybe, some time in the future, no stickers at all! And people say big corporations can't be nimble.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
"It's like buying a new, luxury car — and discovering that it comes with non-removable bumper stickers"
Funny, that's pretty much the same reason why I'll never consider getting a tattoo either.
Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
Scatman Crothers FTW!! :)
Perhaps you could look at business laptops, generally they only come with 1 or 2 stickers
1 for the Chipset/Processor
other for the OS(If it was included)
and, removing the stickers on thinkpads is extremely easy, run Prime 95 + Furmark for 15-20 minutes, use TPFC to disable the fan. Soon the sticker area heats up enough that you can just peel it off with minimal residue..
And, its unlikely that a short burst of high temp's will damage the processor in any way
This is about the most inane post, and I've been around here for a while. It's so inane, it cracks me up.
Ok, well, one of the most inane non-Apple post. Apple posts and their fanbois are annoying instead.
It's not like the technology hasn't been around and in use for the past couple decades or anything...
My kitchen garbage has been adorned with this sticker for over a decade.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Superb, I was thinking about how to explain this, in a short sentence. But you sir, showed that no explanation is necessary.
I prefer to use C4. I prefer the smell of almonds to oranges.
Actually, if you use your soldering torch on them for a few seconds, they usually burn up pretty easily. A quick cleaning after that is pretty simple.
That advice works well for copper fittings... probably not so well for laptops. :)
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Just use those clear vinyl sticker that are normally on cell phone LCD screens? Peel off with no glue.
I bought a cheap laser printer, then I tried to remove the garish sticker describing all the features and how to operate the demo mode. I shredded, apparently not meant to be removed. I never did manage to get all of the weird vinyl sticker off. Why can't we have products with a simple company logo, and maybe a permanent product information sticker on the bottom?
Do I need green, blue, and yellow stickers all over every PC, camera and printer I buy?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I just assumed this was a reference to Kel.
Because damnit, I like the stickers. Not that I look at them, not that they impact why I bought the system, but because...well, they just break up the lines, and no other reason.
I don't need the network logo in the corner of my show for the entire hour.
The station ID bug serves a couple purposes: 1. it reminds viewers what channel they're watching even if they use analog cable or the low-end cable box without channel names, and 2. it helps to provide evidence of the source of a TV-Rip.
without the sticker, how am i gonna impress the girls?!?!?!?
there are no laptops in the market without that ubiquitous OS. I don't want to waste time chasing them for a refund.
Apple laptops don't come covered in stickers (i guess steve jobs hates them too, or thinks they would ruin the aesthetics)...
What other laptop manufacturers don't include all these stickers?
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
i've had plenty of employer-supplied and personally-bought laptops over the years (dell, HP, vaio) and have not had an issue with any. unstick a corner. peel off s..l..o..w..l..y.... no residue. no issue. of course its a pain that suppliers do this in the first place, but 1-2mins per sticker is no problem.
in fact, those colleauges of mine who don't remove theirs leave their laptops looking worse with age, as they slowly rub the logos of the stickers.
If AMD hated laptop stickers as much as I do, they would have already done away with them. QED.
Sent from my iPhone
I always just use strong tape to remove adhesive glue from surfaces
i.e. I repeatedly apply and reapply a piece of packing tape to any left over adhesive a few times and it removes residue quite easily
You're thinking of Explosive No. 808. To my knowledge C4 doesn't smell like anything in particular.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Burn then off with the torch you will be soldering with. There I just saved you the five minutes.
It smells like victory.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I only have a Honda Civic and CR-V, but made the dealer take off all their dealer stickers and logos as a purchase condition (and replace their logo wheel cover with the original Honda cover - which was nicer anyway.). Though they showed me that the stickers were actually fairly easy to remove, having them do it made them responsible for any screw ups. I like my dealership, but won't give them free advertising...
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
The stickers are half the problem. Try getting rid of the (crap|bloat)ware that comes with most Windows notebooks!
Here's a great "susie homemaker" idea for removing sticker residues: peanut butter. Between the oil and soft abrasion of the peanuts, it works great!
As for that "big apple" problem, I cover my undesirable deco-plates with...wait for it....
Stickers!
Usually bigger, automotive (bumper) stickers. I have a nice "Steal your face" VW over my eee logo, and on my bigger laptop used one I got from a HOPE convention.
Mommy, the mean computer companies put stickers on my laptop. What am I ever going to do?
It's stuff like this that makes geeks look like retards.
No no, that's napalm!
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Leaving the stickers on makes it easier to tell the system specs at a glance, even if the machine is off.
I would guess that 90% of consumers never upgrade their systems, which means that what it says on the box is usually what's inside. The ones who do upgrade their systems are quick to tell you about it, because they turned their three-year-old $1200 system into a brand new computer, simply by spending $300 on new insides.
It's fun to tell them that for $600, they could have built a brand new one that really is brand new, and would be three times as fast as their upgraded system for only twice what they spent... especially when their $300 upgrade didn't get them any faster than buying a $300 system at walmart would have...
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
I have a lenovo y510 with one of those "Centrino inside intell swoop" stickers on it.
The sticker has scratched a sticker shaped mark on the screen part of the laptop.
It is just a clear plastic cover - perhaps something will buff out the mark...or make it worse.
... all those "Designed for Microsoft Windows" stickers I put on my toilet tank?
Have gnu, will travel.
Whether or not it's "natural" depends entirely on your definition of the word.
Are we going to start calling citric acid artificial because a lemon tree made it? Or call honey artificial, because a bunch of bees made it?
We're just as a part of nature as bees and lemon trees, so why is stuff we made suddenly unnatural?
Moreover, since it's completely arbitrary, why does it matter where we draw the line?
It's a completely useless definition. That is, unless you want to make millions off of people who think "natural" things are better than "unnatural" things. Barnum called those people "suckers".
Question everything
Be careful with this and do a spot test first; essential oils destabilize some plastics. I'd recommend starting out with something simpler like ethanol/isopropyl. Plain old rubbing alcohol plus friction has always done the trick for me.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
I never paid attention to the stickers on my laptop before. Now after reading this post I suddenly notice them and feel violated.
Fuck you, slashdot!
The bizarre thing is that computer companies are trying to make their laptops beautiful these days. A.M.D. reps showed me, for example, a gorgeous new Hewlett-Packard ultralight laptop. Sleek. Shiny. Elegant.
Wow, David Pogue said something complimentary about a Win Laptop without immediately following it up with ", though utterly failing in light of Apple's recent MacBook Pro offerings."
Has he been Cringely'd?
No, that stuff smells like gasoline.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I don't care about the stickers. Gimme non-horked ACPI data please. Sure, you don't manufacture the motherboards, but you can provide the OOEMs and OEMs the same sort of incentives that drive their sticker adoption.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
more stickers please
C4 has no smell. 'Almond' smell is usually attributed to cyanide. If anything, C4 smells like plastic... because of the binder, not the actual material.
According to Tyler , it is made from Gasoline+Orange Juice!
Love the stickers. They divide the sane from the idiots. I find anyone keeping the stickers being a free billboard and thus an idiot. They however find me an idiot for bothering at all. I however have a Mac that came with none.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
I was a combat engineer in the army.. your right C4 has little to no odor.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
On my m15x, there were no stickers below the keyboard, unlike one you would buy from Best Buy or NewEgg. I think there's a Windows ID sticker underneath that is ugly and likes to flake off over time. Alienware's laptops aren't quite as sleek as Apple's, nor are they quite as robust-feeling, but they are doing some things right. The amount of crapware loaded on the laptop was also very minimal, akin to Apple's method, which I appreciate wholeheartedly. I still put Ubuntu on it though. ;)
Mainly because our minds can invent new things faster than our bodies can adapt to them, thus something invented by us is more likely to cause serious trouble for our metabolism than something that bees or trees invented millions of years ago.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I prefer to use my anus. I prefer the smell of feces to almonds.
I just got a new laptop a few weeks ago. It had 3 stickers on it. All of them came off without any real effort beyond a finger nail. I used to purchase AMD CPUs, but switched to Intel with the C2D line. The i5, Win7, and .... whatever the other sticker was - came off easily on the first day I opened the box. The laptop was built and mailed directly from the vendor, so there was ZERO sitting on a shelf.
Perhaps this is an AMD issue or due to laptops sitting in hot trucks?
I like to think of a Laptop like my friends Honda. Each sticker adds +10 horsepower.
Not to mention the droning of a loud exhaust and crappy speakers.
Bull. Just because something is "natural" has no bearing on its safety or efficacy. Natural is just a feel good word. It's a marketing tool, that's all.
Just tell the store that you will buy it only if they take off the sticker
Oil was created millions of years ago... but I wouldn't bathe in it. ;)
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
You're absolutely right. That Xeon E5620 in your Mac is *NOT* the same as the Xeon E5620 I have in my PC. In fact, yours is probably much better and faster. Oh, and did I mention dearer?
That is all.
I am not "thinking" of anything. I'm making a joke that is referencing a trope. I didn't make it up, even if it is not accurate (and jokes don't have to be accurate).
I do suggest the following links though:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_explosive_smells_like_almonds
http://ask.metafilter.com/157267/Does-C4-smell-like-Almonds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
simplistic analysis, actually, as the residue from the burned sticker still needs to be removed. If you ever do any plumbing you will see this.
Nerds... is there anything we won't argue about?
How about "organic", or, since that term is taken, "natural" if the product is produced through a biological process?
Under this criterion, 100-proof alcohol is, for example, unnatural because the only way you can get that high percentage of alcohol in any fluid is through distillation, an unnatural chemical process (as opposed to natural fermentation that gives you wines with 14% or so alcohol by volume).
Of course, this makes cobra venom "natural" as well (in its naturally occurring concentration), but then, I'm not the one equating "natural" with "good".
I covered mine with gaffer's tape and drew a penguin on it (personal trademark, not Tux - see my username - though I am a linux user as well). Used silver sharpie so it matches the nice brushed aluminum.
Doesn't fool anyone into thinking it's not a mac, but it's not as obvious. I'm "thinking different" rather than looking like all the other people with macbooks with that glowing apple on them.
I've been considering of doing something less rough-looking (it's literally just a 3x1 inch piece of black gaffer's tape...) and cutting out the design from the tape so that it glows through the penguin design rather than just completely covering up the light, but I haven't gotten around to it.
All that said, yes, I think the design of the aluminum macbook pro is very nice and it would look ridiculous with all those stupid stickers on it every other laptop has. I can't say I really give them a lot of credit for not putting the stickers on... it should be obvious *not* to put stickers on, not to default to putting stickers on. The fact that every manufacturer loads them on is a sign of mindless corporate copying. I can't imagine there's any real benefit to doing it.
What about his left C4?
And Apple give you free stickers to use anywhere you want! :D
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
D-link DIR 300 router, probably others.
It has a big, ugly orange sticker covering the Ethernet ports with "RTFM before connecting!!!" written on it.
The adhesive is strong, but the sticker itself is not and turns into shreds. It takes forever to rub/pick it off from the matte black plastic surface.
We both said a lot of things that you are going to regret.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I prefer to use C4. I prefer the smell of almonds to oranges.
Suggesting that one uses a highly explosive substance merely because it smells of almonds is highly irresponsible. Particularly when so many non-explosive alternatives exist, like prussic acid.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Comment removed based on user account deletion
what about your left C4??
Protip: You can get ~20% alcohol with the correct yeast. This may or may not be legal in your jurisdiction.
I kinda like those stickers. Even considered buying some once, then I remembered I prefer food.
My computer has a big "Powered by Ubuntu" sticker on it. =D
I care not for your karma and your mod points.
Would the world end instantly if forced to make quality products? It seems like almost all companies compete by making their products cheaper. This means reducing quality and selling space for ads and other crapware. Stickers have never helped sell a computer, for the simple reason that for all of the product's useful life a sticker only shows how obsolete you are. I have owned computers with stickers: windows 98, Y2k, Celeron, etc. How many of these stickers influenced ANYONE who was looking for a new computer. On the other hand, yes I paid more for a mac. No cool stickers. However, it makes quite an impression when you trip on the power cord and nothing bad happens due to the magsafe. Buy whatever you want I guess.
Nerds... is there anything we won't argue about?
Does arguing suggest listening to the other person's view?
If so, we won't argue about Windows vs. Linux, or VI vs. Emacs.
Whether or not it's "natural" depends entirely on your definition of the word. We're just as a part of nature as bees and lemon trees, so why is stuff we made suddenly unnatural?
Because that's the common definition of the word. The bigger question is why some people assume natural means better and why some people, like you, get so upset by them that they feel they need to challenge the definition of a perfectly useful word. Seriously. You know what the word means and so do I, so it's useful for communication. Just because some new age hippie thinks natural means better doesn't mean you need to change the definition.
I like the term some other European languages use for "organic" food, which is "ecological". Presumably, meaning something which is part of the ecosystem without human intervention.
But your left C4 smells like almonds, right?
I don't care for the stickers myself. They look tacky. After you try to peel them off, they feel tacky. As a Linux user, I don't really care for a windblows sticker on my computer. Some of the Linux distros tried to put "Linux Inside" stickers in some of their packages. I don't use them. I've heard of using WD-40 to get them off, also baby oil, and my suggestion is what I use to remove tree sap from cloth: Purell hand sanitizer. The alcohol is mild enough to get rid of the stick without doing anything to plastic. It smells nice afterward too.
Heh...at least it doesn't smell like an Apple!
I've got some foxglove growing out in my yard if you want to test that theory.. And if you survive that, there's a local amanita variant I can probably find without too much trouble if I go looking for it.
Natural is generally used to mean "is accessible irregardless of the state of industry", as I understand it, and I think the implication is that its "tried and true", and unlikely to have bizarre side effects that we wont know about for 20 years. For example, asprin has been used thru willow bark for thousands of years, so its pretty likely that willow bark / salicylic acid isnt likely to produce bizarre birth defects. Artificial sweeteners on the other hand are newer, hence why people are able to claim all sorts of things about them-- true or not, they dont have a multi-thousand year track record.
Youre right that the word isnt terribly useful if you try to get technical, but lets be honest here, people usually arent that careful with their words. I was having a (pedantic) argument with someone a few weeks ago about intrinsic value, and whether gold has any-- in a very real sense, the word "intrinsic" is arbitrary-- does gold have any value in itself? Why would money-- that is paper-- not also? But of course when you talk of gold's intrinsic value people understand what you mean; we're not using technical language, but that doesnt mean the word is utterly useful so long as there is a general understanding communicated through it.
I assume, after all, that if someone said that yellow #5 (tartrazine / coal tar extract) isnt "natural" you would understand roughly what they mean and are getting at, and im sure if they said that glucose wasnt "natural" you would be quick to point out that it really is.
I bought a bunch of apples last week and each one had a sticker on it. "Fuji 4224". Had to carefully peel them off before biting into them. I don't think they're digestible.
Oh, you mean the computer company. Capital 'A'. Gotcha.
One flew east, and one flew west...
but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
... Intel inside.
If you can't remove the sticker, try adding one of your own.
Because "natural", in that context, means "not man-made". Just as "artificial" means "man made" (and "artifact" is something made by humans).
Being humans, it is expected that we would have words to refer to things made by our own species, to distinguish them from things that occur outside of our species' influence.
If you don't like the word, don't use it, but that is its meaning.
While it's true that something natural can still be just as unsafe as something unnatural, they are generally better understood than something unnatural. Natural things created by trees and birds have been used by our ancestors for thousands of years and we've had a chance to observe the effects. We're lucky if stuff we come up with has undergone 1 or 2 human trials prior to being offered to the public.
I've found that eucalyptus oil works well, too.
According to the most frothing of the opposed-to-homosexual-marriage ideologues, it's pets we'll be marrying, not food items. :P
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Modern staple foods are almost universally descended from plants that were deliberately exposed to high levels of artificial ionizing radiation or chemical mutagens in order to induce mutations. Mankind induced the mutations, then mankind artificially and selectively bred the mutations into the food supply. Outside a few minor heirloom varieties, there is virtually no maize, wheat, rice, or soy on the planet which isn't the result of these artificially-induced alterations of the plant genomes.
Which is to say, no, there is almost nothing you can eat "which is part of the ecosystem without human intervention." It's all been meddled with.
I've occasionally used dark nail polish to label metal objects though (as regular markers tend to rub off).
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Mainly because our minds can invent new things faster than our bodies can adapt to them, thus something invented by us is more likely to cause serious trouble for our metabolism than something that bees or trees invented millions of years ago.
No one claims the things we make are as easily or quickly adapted to.
Nor is anyone claiming the things we make are not more likely to cause problems for our metabolism.
Neither of those facts makes something natural or not natural however.
Our manufactured yet natural stuff is just worse for us :P
n/t.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Well, the difference between natural saturated fat (as found in cows) and artificial saturated fat (hydrogenated oils) is trans-fatty acids, which will clog your arteries quite a bit faster.
The thing about the "artificial" label is that it tells you that it wasn't made by a process that evolved over billions of years to be efficient and produce a safe, high-quality material for use elsewhere in the system, but was probably made by the cheapest process achievable and with the least quality control needed to convince the consumer to pick the product up off the shelf, which is decreased by a ton when you consider the power of advertising and packaging.
"For those of you who prefer completely natural cleaners"
An application of heat will work better than anything else and is the most natural thing possible. This is why we attach/remove the labels with heat guns, people.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
C4 itself doesn't stink but the RDX most certainly does once it burns.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
No, natural isn't too much marketing-oriented. Organic, on the other hand...
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Keep your stuff below 25C for high-proof alcohols and you can use almost any yeast up to about 30%, and specialized yeasts boast theoretical 40%. The hardest part is keeping it alive during fermentation.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
People trying to sell me things are real quick to remove stickers when I tell them I have a $1000/day advertising fee that they must agree to before I'll buy something with stickers on it. It works especially well with cars. Those dealer advertising stickers just fly right off somehow.
For those of you who prefer completely natural cleaners, ...
What!? You mean baby oil is synthetic?
Where are you people getting your stuff from? I've never had any electronics/computers that had stickers that took more than 5 seconds to yank off and rub the residue completely off with my thumb. A lot of these suggestions on this page will dissolve the paint on the surface of the components...
I peel them off carefully then stick creatively.
My waste bin is designed for Windows XP.
I have a Gigabyte brand microwave oven.
My TI-82 calculator sports an Intel Dual Core CPU.
The flush tank has Intel Inside.
My kitchen clock can be overclocked jumper-free.
And I have a NVidia VHS video player.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I peel 'em off with my thumbnail and smudge it a bit with my finger. All gone.
I have to admit, These are all older computers; the newest one I've tried it one was about three when I got it, stickers intact. Have they switched to a more obnoxious sticker system?
Like to brew? Want to talk about it? Brattlebrew: groups.yahoo.com/group/brattlebrew
If they changed the stickers to the scratch and smell kind I would definitely support that.
AMD hates them but not as much as Apple it seems. Article mentions that they "millions on the table" by refusing to apply Intel's stickers.
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Things are natural when we and all sorts of other creatures evolved for millions of years to adapt to them.
Things that do not readily occur in nature will more often than not be harmful.
I kind of equate it to buying a $50 t-shirt with some designer name printed across the front. Basically you're a walking billboard.
I fully agree with your statement. However, the funny thing is that many people prefer to have a designer name printed across the front (and gladly over-pay for the privilege)!
The problem is that the general acceptance of the word "natural" in it's "you know what I mean" use has lead to a very large portion of the population NOT knowing what it they mean. I had a conversation with a woman recently that told me that food shouldn't be grown with "technology". It should be natural. That "natural" was better. So, I asked... "You mean we shouldn't use plows in farming?".
Apparently, she had gotten the idea that hydroponics was performed by having a bunch of mad scientists down in an hollowed out volcano, performing bizarre experiments on the food supply in beakers full of multicolored bubbling chemicals. Ok, maybe not quite that bad, but close. When asked more questions, the poor woman could not actually say what she thought was "natural" other than she would know it when she saw it, and it was the stuff that said so on the packaging.
I like the term some other European languages use for "organic" food, which is "ecological". Presumably, meaning something which is part of the ecosystem without human intervention.
Makes sense. After all, inorganic food is rather difficult to digest.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I'm still waiting for someone to create Vimacs to settle the argument . . .
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Without all those handy Windows stickers peeled from laptops, what else would I stick to my coworkers' Linux workstations? And to me 'Intel Inside' looks as good on their Prius' gas cap as the "EnergyStar" sticker looks on their Yukon's.
Nonsense. If you'd bought a new, luxury, laptop, it would be all shiny and have no stickers on the palm rests. Just an Apple on the back.
The only downside for pure citrus orange oil is that your laptop may smell like oranges for days.
That's a downside?
De-solv-it is another natural cleaner that works very well. That'll take the brake dust stains right off your car's rims too, BTW.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
whoosh!
Selective breeding lead to a far lower rate of introduction of new substances than synthesising chemicals (or, potentially, genetic engineering ).
There is also a much wider range of substances that can be produced in large amounts: you can synthesise pure compounds in any quantity very quickly and cheaply.
Of course, there is still a lot of irrationality about food, as well, but not anything like as much as about health,
A few years ago I was trying to install Linux on my lappy (on the train home) the X windows was having none of it,. The next day I idlely picked off the Designed for Microsoft Windows and found it booted Linux perfectly.
Clearly it was the stickers malign influence that was causing the problems (I still have it, If my employers ever hack me off I will affix it somewhere in their server room and leave... try debugging that one:->
The word natural is a boon to sellers of natural products, that's for sure.
Only in the last few years did I learn the trick of using the sticker to peel the rest of the gunk off. Just re-stick it and quickly remove several times and most of it comes off. I sometimes use masking tape for the rest. The nice thing about this approach is that you aren't using any harsh chemicals that might alter the surface (someone here mentioned the piano finish on newer displays).
Microsoft and Intel demanding that the OEMs emboss the logos into the plastic case or use a hotfoil strip as a condition of the discount (as part of the market development funds "kickbacks")
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
can someone explain the reference?
Perhaps the real problem is you were talking to a stupid and/or ignorant, but strongly opinionated, woman?
I don't believe that some individual having a very strong opinion on something they have no useful knowledge of is really evidence of any kind of problem with our language, or a particular word in our language. Stupid people will say and think stupid things regardless of what words they're using to say them.
These days most of the babies used to make baby oil are kept in cages and fed a genetically-engineered diet which is designed to greatly boost the production of the fats which most of the oil is squeezed from. So it's not really "natural" anymore; as they saying goes: garbage in, garbage out.
If you can, try to find baby oil which is squeezed from organic free range babies. It has a much higher quality due to the more varied diets and additional nutrients they get from natural foraging behaviour; however it's a fair bit more expensive and many stores don't carry it at all. I think the average free range baby yields about 3 litres of baby oil when squeezed; you get around 10L from a battery-farm baby.
For many years now the first thing I have done when a new machine arrives is take the designed for windows stickers and place them on the front of the trash cans all around the office.
Whether or not it's "natural" depends entirely on your definition of the word.
Are we going to start calling citric acid artificial because a lemon tree made it? Or call honey artificial, because a bunch of bees made it?
I think it's not so much about how it was made but how it will be "decomposed". If something can be easily composted, I would call it natural.
Of course how it was made is also important. If something needs an industrial process to be made with lots of unwanted byproducts, I will call it "artificial". When there a natural organism can produce the exactly same substance, I still will call the substance made by man "artificial". This is not because of the substance itself but because of the byproducts produced when it was made.
So in my point of view "artificial" or "natural" is not so much about the substance itself, but about the processes to create and dispose that substance. The wording is not perfect, but I think the concept is clear to most people.
A normal rubber eraser is excellent for removing all kinds of sticky stuff.
Be very careful when removing the sticker from this laptop.
Some people have a sixth finger, perfectly natural but not normal. Likewise, bees are natural, but I don't want them anywhere on my new laptop.
eucalyptus oil removes crap better then anything else.
Read 'The Shining' by Stephen King.
Yes, because Lindows settled the other argument so well...
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
[...]should you really be obligated to spend the first 20 minutes trying to dissolve away the sticker goop with WD40?[...]
Wait a moment there... what if you open your computer box, first things first you start cleaning away like crazy and then the computer is a DOA? Are you going to the shop to swap it while the thing is still moist and smelling of WD40? Your "big bucks" might not come back as soon as you want them...
The TCO-certificate sticker is sadly missing on most computer equipment these days. It's the only sticker that provide valuable information to a buyer or user (i.e. if you have to work at a computer screen that is lacking this sticker, you know beforehand that it likely sucks, it will make you stupid at work and you will feel exhausted, with strained eyes, at the end of the day, at least you can plan ahead and cancel all the fun you originally planned to do after work).
Humans are an integral part of the ecosystem too.
I have no particular opinion one way or the other, but I'd like to point out that (non-monsanto) maize plants will keep breeding and producing when humans stop intervening, whereas the production of 100% alcohol will come to a full stop.
What a depressingly stupid machine.
If you really want to do it right, use 90% rubbing alcohol. No residue, evaporates in seconds. I personally wouldn't even consider using WD40 or any type of oil-based product. It will remove the sticky crud, but in the process, you just created a brand new problem.
Put it this way: you wouldn't use WD40 to clean the thermal grease off your processor, would you? I sure hope not.
You should also insist on cold-pressed baby oil. The other stuff is crud and could as well be made of seniors.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Whether or not it's "natural" depends entirely on your definition of the word.
Yeah, it pretty much means stuff that happens by accident. DNA just happens. Proteins only fold so many ways so DNA can only produce a finite (yet staggering) number of outcomes. DNA-based creatures (the only kind we have found here so far, anything else alive doesn't deserve to be called a creature) can only produce certain compounds. Those compounds are what is natural. It is important to remember, however, that Arsenic is natural (and forever.)
We're just as a part of nature as bees and lemon trees, so why is stuff we made suddenly unnatural?
By definition certain acts are unnatural.
Moreover, since it's completely arbitrary, why does it matter where we draw the line?
It's not really relevant. What is really wanted is to decide what is harmful.
It's a completely useless definition. That is, unless you want to make millions off of people who think "natural" things are better than "unnatural" things. Barnum called those people "suckers".
It's a fairly useful way to identify products which do not contain ingredients produced by dumping chemicals in a vat and running a current through it. That's all it's good for, but that is pretty good, because that approach causes problems regarding purity which you do not encounter any other way. It of course also solves some such problems, but in general the only real benefit is cost.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Good summary:
'It's like buying a new, luxury car — and discovering that it comes with non-removable bumper stickers that promote the motor oil, the floor mat maker, the windshield-fluid company and the pine tree air freshener you have no intention of ever using,'
Comes complete with a apt car analogy.
My MSI Wind came with the desktop sized "Windows XP" logo, an AMD sticker of similar size, and this massive 2"x3" reflective sticker with all the features. There's no free space left on the palm rest.
No, that stuff IS gasoline. And orange juice concentrate. And Styrofoam.
Anyone remember those. Every computer used to come with them. Any case you bought would have a square little place for a case badge. Sometimes it would already be populated with the case logo. The cool part, was at one point companies would make custom case badges and sell them, so you could use new ones, or replace old ones. I know I have an old BP6 Dual Celly gathering dust with a custom case and a "2CPU.COM" case badge. Fun times. I also remember you could just get various graphic etc...
I built a new desktop recently, ordered all the parts off of Newegg, mostly OEM. Nearly every major component came with a sticker: Mobo, RAM, processor, graphics card, even the case. As if they expected me to stick them on myself?
Well, that may be true. The problem is that what you or I would call stupid makes up the vast majority of the population. The smart people generally won't use the word other than when talking to the stupid, or when comparing it to the supernatural. So, pretty much the "you know what" definition is for the stupid, and they are the ones that get confused by it's use.
I think drinking that shite is the hardest part. Bigfoot @ 9.6% is about as far as I can go, but only because of the generous hoppage. 7% seems to be the sweet spot for balance, as is 50% for whusky. YMMV. I think for wine it may be around 13% but I haven't done the research.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
If you get your baby oil at a farmer's market, you could watch them squeeze the oil, and also be assured that you are supporting your local baby oil farmers.
I apply my chosen solvent to a cotton ball and use that to clean the residue, as I prefer not to allow substances to seep into my equipment and this provides better control. If I can't find the Goo-Gone, the Mia Rose is always by the WC. Wintergreen oil travels a little too well for my taste, BTW, and I don't feel comfortable letting that emigrate into my electronic stuff.
So we're still talking about smelling nuts?
Uh, "woosh" much? The video linked is to the famous "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" scene from Apocalypse Now, in which Kilgore declares that napalm smells like victory...
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
That's the first thing I do when purchase a new laptop. I will go as far as removing all stickers, badges, Ect. Minimal as possible for this guy.